REMARKS UPON A LETTER FROM A Gentleman in the Country TO HIS Friend in LONDON; AND UPON A Relation of some Norfolk Clergy, of a Conference between them and some Quakers, at West-Dereham Church in Norfolk, December the 8th 1698.  
And a Certificate relating to the Challenge: With 〈◊〉 farther Account of the said Conference.  
By an Eye and Ear Witness of the whole, J. A  
LONDON, Printed and Sold by the Booksellers of London and Westminster, 1699.   

REMARKS upon a Letter, etc.  
HAving seen A Letter from a Gentleman in the Country to his Friend at London, concerning a Conference between some Clergymen at West-Dereham in Norfolk, and some Quakers; Subscribed W. D.  
And since another Relation of the same Conference, together with those Letters which passed between the Quakers and Clergy, in order thereunto; to which is added a Certificate concerning the Challenge.  
On which, I being an Eye and Ear Witness all the time, am willing to make some Remarks.  
Although I am not a Person that delights in Controversy, or takes Pleasure in such Debates, yet was willing at this time to be present, and to observe how, and in what temper, this Conference would be managed, which was Commendable on both sides at first, in making their Supplications unto God; but it continued not long in so Edifying a Method; for when the Clergy had read some Letters that had passed between them and the Quakers, the Quakers desired, and had it granted, that their Answers might be read in Course, but the Clergy would have proceeded to read their Proofs, which the Quakers objected against, because they had not Copies of their Charge, according to their Request; neither were the Preliminaries agreed upon. And I am persuaded, had the Clergy granted that, and behaved themselves Grave and Solid, and proceeded in a Christian Spirit of Meekness and Love, they would have been more acceptable to the People, and satisfactory to the Auditory: But on the contrary, the Quakers very Soberly Appealed to the People, both against their Proceed, Levity and Noise.  
And by that, and making Confession of their Faith, in good Language and Scripture Terms, I must say, were most taking with the sober People present. And now I shall proceed to my Remarks; and first, on the Letter: I must acknowledge it's a fair Account, and Impartially done in what it toucheth of; and the Advice taken out of J. Fox, I must needs say is well Adapted, and I could be hearty glad it were well Practised: And the only way thereto, is, for all to dwell in that Love that Envieth not, which is the Badge by which all Men may know whose Disciples they are: And not to hold or contend for any Doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God, but rather close with the Philosophers, viz. Amicus Socrates, Amicus Plato; Sed Magis Amica Veritas; and again, Non est Jurandum in verba Magistri; that is to say. Truth is to be our Bosom Friend, and we are to flee all others, to follow that which will teach us not to be Angry without a Cause.  
And as to the Relation given by the Clergy, I must confess, it's neither Candid, nor Consistant in several things, viz. p. 6. One of us got to a Corner of the Seat, from whence he might be heard by some of the People, and laid open some of the Blasphemies we had to Charge them with, out of their own Books, to the great Satisfaction of the Auditory, which cried out Blasphemy, Blasphemy! on which one of the Quakers very Pertly asked us. That if they looked upon us to be such Blasphemers, what is 〈◊〉 reason we have let them alone so long, that they had never heard of such a Char● from us before (even through the space of Forty Years) and how comes it to pass 〈◊〉 have been so Careless of our Flocks? We ingeniously told them, We never had 〈◊〉 right an Understanding of their Principles as of late.  
Rem. Here's no Quotation, no Reference to any Book or Books, out of which the things were proved, it was but to some, and at a Corner; yet to the great Satisfaction 〈◊〉 the Audition, who cried out Blasphemy, Blasphemy! I doubt the Quakers will Ridicule th● Corner-Story, that was so little heard, and gave such great Satisfaction, and cause● a Cry of Blasphemy, Blasphemy! Which few heard but those in the Corner; for I am sure that all the time I was not far from the Scaffold, and I heard no such repeate● Exclamations: These things are more like to be to the Disadvantage of the Clergy than their Reputation; and those People that are apt to improve every Advantage against them, and are ready by the Fruits and Practice of some Clergymen to compare them to those false Prophets, which preached for Hire, and divined for Money, and that sought their Gain from their Quarter, who by their Lies and Lightness caused the People to Err●  
Besides these People, from the Clergies not quoting their Books, nor Reciting the words which they say are Blasphemy in this Printed Account, will be ready to suggest, That the Clergy were Conscious to themselves that the Words would not amount to Blasphemy, because they only Impose them upon their own Authority, as if Ipse dixit, as one there told them, were sufficient: And it's much but they'll suggest, that these Learned Rectors, that confess there are several Thousands of the Quakers in Norfolk and Suffolk have been very Careless and Negligent in the discharge of their Office, who allege they have the Care and Cure of Souls, and are well paid for it, and account the Quakers Blasphemers, and their Principles Dangerous, and yet have not all this while proved the first as publicly in Print, as they are exposed in their Books, and understood so little of the latter, till of late, as they ingenuosly Confess: Is here not room to say, Nec mirum ejusdem fere sunt farinae Irrisor & Ignarus.  
And for old Parson Meriton to be included amongst these is more strange; for the Quakers will be ready to conclude, what he did in Appearing against, and Opposing the Quakers some Years since, and their Principles, was before he had so right an Understanding of their Principles: Besides there was one thing I took particular notice of, which was this, When the Quakers complained of the Severeness of their Charge, and the Universality of it, being against the whole Body of the People called Quakers, Parson Archer of milner told them openly, they did not Charge the Quakers of this Generation, for they were Orthodox, and would have them only deny their Ancient Friends Books: And indeed as he appeared most Charitable, so he behaved himself more Grave than the others: But the Quakers returned upon that, as in the Letter, to know whether they would deny their Ancient Friends Writings, as William Thorpe, etc.  
And again I observe in the Clergy's Account, p. 2, they have Recited a passage out of one or the 〈◊〉 Celebrated Authors, which seems to be a very bold Proposal, and shows they are strong in their Persuasion, although they have been exposed to great Sufferings; the words cited are, Let any Wise Men Propound for full Satisfaction of all sorts of People, that We, with the Consent of the Chief in Authority, that have Power in this Nation (note, This shows they had some respect for Magistracy) who may preserve Peace and Safety among People— may freely— give as many of the Wise●● and Ablest of the Priests, etc. a Meeting for Dispute at any place in England, at what Place and Time, and for what Continuance they shall Ascribe and Consent unto.  
Now I Remark from this, it's to my Admiration, that ever the Clergy should urge this as they did at West-Dereham, and have now again to Settle the Preliminaries of that Conference, and now to say the Quakers would not stand to Edw. Burroughs' Terms, which were never urged as Terms, as I heard, till then: Besides the Quakers did then and there urge, it was morally Impossible, that the Proposal of Edward Burroughs, made above Twenty Five Years past, should settle the Preliminaries of a Conference that was begun to be treated on but a few Months since; and now they have printed it, it's much if those People (which I perceive are pretty apt with their Repartees) do not tell them, that those Terms of Edward Burroughs were not answered, for by that, Wise Men were to propound, and to them in Authority; but they neither look upon those Rectors (or Lawrence Park) either Wise Men, or in Authority. There is another passage, which was, I perceive, omitted in the Letter, which the principal Managers, as they style themselves, viz. Edward Beckenham, D. D. Rector of Gayton Thorpe, Henry Meriton, Rector of Oxborough, Lancaster Topcliff, Rector of Hockwold, have hinted in that Remarkable and most Notable Relation of the Conference, wherein they boldly declare, they would not leave the matter thus, but seek some more seasonable opportunity to make good their Charge (not Challenge, for they'll not allow that they had that Courage against the Quakers) but intent when Wether is good; and that the Quakers will Answer fairly, to permit (oh! what power they assume) any of all the Quakers to appear, but if they shall fall a Clamouring, they will civility lead them out of Door. Is it not strange that such a material passage should be omitted? Which shows the Resolution of the Clergy, and their Care to seek a more favourable opportunity to make good their Charge; which causes me to Remember, what some at the Conference called them: For by this they grant their Work's to do, their Proofs are to make, and the Quakers are only called, not proved Blasphemers, in any of the Points brought against them; what Reason, than I pray, had the People to cry out Blasphemy, Blasphemy! unless it was to fulfil this Proverb, Qualis sit Caulae Rex, talis est Vulgi Grex?  
But let me be Charitable to the Auditory, quoted for their Enuntiation of Blasphemy, Blasphemy! for surely either they were Ignorant if they so did; or those learned Clergy misrepresent them, for it is granted by them that the Charges are yet to prove. So that for any thing they did, that Six Hours they were at the Conference, the Quakers remain what they were, however these Rectors if they did little, are now resolved to speak big, and that is sooner said than proved; for now they declare under their Hands, which is witnessed unto by many others, or the Substance of it (and that by one Presbyterian, John Williamson, Minister of the Gospel; as these Clergymen print him) however, the Clergy will permit the Quakers upon terms, viz. if the Quakers answer fairly, We will permit any of them all to appear; what wonderful favour is this from those that spoke so big? Yet now I think of it, how would they hinder their appearance? Unless they were resolved to meet privately. And now they Charge, Sentence and Condemn them, unsummoned and unheard, and will not this be as well as to Summon them, as when they come to put them out— but let's not forget the civility they promise, which is, if they fall a Clamouring, they will very civility lead them out of Doors. And no doubt they'll undertake to be Judges of that, considering there's one D. D. besides two other Rectors, who possibly in the Quakers absence, may be able to do what they could not when present. But consider further, that this grant of Civility is promised the Quakers by the Clergy, notwithstanding, they have done so much to hinder their Good design of proving their Charge of Blasphemy to the People, so they grant again the Charge is not yet proved; yet say those Reverend Rectors, the People were generally satisfied, if so, surely these People, or the Clergy, or both, were very weak, to conclude Men Guilty before Trial or Proof; but peradventure these Masters of Words, and Men of Learning, may mean by their couching the Matter thus, that the People were satisfied, they neither did, nor could prove what they charged the Quakers with: For if it was as they suggest, that the Quakers would not let them proceed to Try, Sentence and Condemn, before they were in a Capacity to make their Defence, by perusing the Quotations designed or urged for Proofs, with other places in the same Books; and that every Author may have that common Justice, due to all Men, to explain, or have his meaning explained by other Sentences in the same Book.  
Now I say, if these Divines and Men of Learning, were then prevented from proving the Charge out of the Quakers own Writings; why did they not now Print and Publish them to the World, and make them so public as the Quakers Books are, for General Information and Good of their Flocks? For I observe in p. 8. they say, viz. But notwithstanding they, i. e. [the Quakers] have done so much to hinder our good Design of Proving our Charge to the People; we hope we have stopped the Gangreen that it spreads no farther; in our Corner the People were generally satisfied, and do believe them now to be Blasphemers; but why, I pray, do they so Believe? And from whence comes this General Satisfaction? Was it because no proof was made? As these Rectors grant; and is this all they have to ground their hope upon, that the Gangreen is stopped? No, sure there's something further; what's that? It's this, because they refuse to come to Trial, nor would suffer their Books to be read: And this is the Reason the Principal Managers of the Clergy have given under their Hands, this is the Ground of their hope, and of the People's General Satisfaction, and their belief, if these Men may be believed: But this is certain, the Quakers never refused to come to Trial, Hundreds are Witnesses they often proffered it, and in order to it, desired a List or Account of the Titles of the Books, the Pages, and Authors Names, out of which the Clergy pretended they would bring their proofs; and proffer, rather than go without it, to pay for the transcribing it; and once had directions to send to Oxborough for it, and expectation given by Doctor Beckenham that they should have it; but the Rector Meriton denied it; and the Quakers also proffered over and over, that if they might have such a Copy or Account, they would willingly proceed to settle the Preliminaries, and ●●at in order to agree upon time and place, and if there were any thing they could not stand by, or make ●ood by Scripture Proof, they'd disown it; and urged to the Clergy, that if they were sure their Proofs ●●ould hold, they need not fear giving a Copy of their Charge, nor decline another Meeting; but one of the Clergy said, Let it End here.  
And is it not reasonable therefore to conclude, that these Clergymen are Conscious to themselves of the Invalidity of their pretended Proofs, or shortness of making good that Charge, which they would neither then or now produce them, that the World might see what the Quakers were, and what Sharp and industrious Men these Clergy had been, to make such a discovery of them: And if they, now in Print, had done what they could not do at West-Dereham, they might not only have stopped the Gangreen, but completed the Cure, and showed themselves Physicians of some Value. But (says the Clergy, p. 3.) should we tell them the Names of the Books, Page and Line beforehand, we had deserved rather to be laughed at as Fools, than be looked on as Disputants. I perceive they had more mind to be looked upon as Disputants, than laughed at as Fools, and yet by the Judgement of many, approved themselves more like the First than the Latter, and shown more Lightness and Profaneness; considering their Pretensions, and the Place they were in; by Hollowing, and calling to the People to Hiss at the Quakers, than their Skill in Disputing, or Wisdom in Management.  
However, the Clergy seem to be Generous, in that they allow the same liberty for the Quakers (viz.) to Charge any of the Church of England Writers with Blasphemy, as they had taken against the Quakers, but is it not greatly to be feared, considering the difference and contentions that have been and are amongst them upon several Points, as the Trinity, etc. that it would be very hard for Dr. Beckenham, and the two other Rectors, Meriton and Topcliff, without the Authority of the Church, or Power Ecclesiastical, to disown either Dr. Sherlock, or Dr. South.  
However, what the Quakers insisted upon, considering their Generous offer, to meet when they had an account of the Authors, Books and Pages as aforesaid, and had agreed upon time and place, must by fair, and reasonable Men, be accounted both reasonable and fair, and the contrary in the Clergy, in denying it.  
I also observe in page 5. They, say they, i. e. the Quakers, told us Blasphemy against God, was the Sin against the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost was God.  
Rem. And I pray, do not these learned Rectors say the same? If not, may not the Quakers Charge them with Blasphemy, as one of the Quakers did at West-Dereham? And may they not justly be charged with Blasphemy against God, and Jesus Christ, etc. in that they Charge the Quakers, and positively assert, that the Light within, as taught by them, exposes them to Blasphemy against God, and Blasphemy against Jesus Christ? If that Light be God and Jesus Christ.  
For a Quaker there strenuously urged, that they taught, believed in, or expected Salvation by no other than by Him, that Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God, in whom was Life, and the Life was the Light of Men, etc.  
And if so, that any say they that assert this Light, which is the Life of that Word that was God, and so taught, exposes them that so teach and believe, to Blasphemy against God and Christ; and many other Blasphemies, surely they which so assert, as these Clergy have, must be Blasphemers against God, etc. who is this Word, Light and Life: And the Quakers did not only assert this, but did positively deny all the Charges, which was brought and exhibited against them by the Clergy, which Charges, the Clergy acknowledge, was not proved against them, as before observed; and I heard a Quaker then, and there make Confession, that they believed in God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ his Son, born of the Virgin Mary, that appeared in the World, in the Body prepared for him, wrought Miracles, Suffered and Dyed for our Sins, and Rose again for our Justification, and believed that Remission of Sins was through Faith in his Blood; and declared they believed in the Holy Spirit, and owned the Three that bear Record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and that these Three are One, and that they owned the holy Scriptures of Truth, and believed they were given forth by Divine Inspiration, and were profitable for Doctrine, Reproof and Correction, and were able to make the Man of God Wise to Salvation, through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that they did esteem the Bible above all other Books, and accounted it the most Excellent in all the World, and could be glad People did spend more of their time in Reading of it.  
And that they owned Magistracy according to Scripture, and accounted it an Ordinance of God, for the Punishing them that do Evil, and Praise of them that do Well.  
And that they owned the Ordinances of Jesus Christ, and his Baptism, which is truly Essential unto Salvation, and the Supper of the Lord.  
And in the 1st Paper of the Quakers unto the Clergy, which they call a Copy of the Quaker's Challenge, sent unto Henry Meriton, John Meriton, Laurence Park, they writ to them thus, If you think you have Matter to Charge us withal, let us have your Charge under your own Hands, etc. ' This, say they, is not from any Consciousness to ourselves of holding any Errors, but if you think it is, you may if you please, i. e. Charge them.  
Rem. Now one of the Quakers from hence urged, it could be no Challenge, but a Proposal left to them, if they thought they had Matter to Charge them they might, and said the Quakers, you have thought your have Matter, and have charged us, and said, your Measures are fixed, and we may choose whether we will meet you upon the terms resolved on or no: See your last Paper, which is concluded thus, from those that are resolved to continue your real Friends, whether you will or not.  
And notwithstanding their resolute friendship, allowed not the Quakers that provision they reserved in the first Paper, viz. the common Privileges to such occasions belonging, which is a Mutual agreement of time, place and method, and to have an account of the Books, Authors and Pages, when they agreed on that method of Charging.  
I shall now make a few Remarks on the Certificate, which these Learned Divines have obtained, as they say, of several Principal Inhabitants within the Parish of West-Dereham, and other adjacent Parishes, to obviate the false Reports given out by the Quakers, wherewith they endeavoured to make the World believe, that the late Norfolk Challenge was not made by them to the Clergy of the Church of England, which is Signed by Eighteen. It gins thus, viz.  
The Parish of West-Dereham of Norfolk, having in it several Divisions and Sectaries, and but an exceeding Small Salary for a Minister, discouraged most Men from Supplying the Cure.  
Rem. Two things are here Assigned for discouragement, the smallness of the Salary, and having several Sectaries. So where there is most Need, there is least Care, if Money be wanting; it makes me think of the Old Proverb, No Penny, No Pater Noster: No Money, no Care or Cure of Souls; will not this verify the Proverb, Money answers all things? Therefore say these Certifiers,  
By reason whereof it was seldom well Supplied for any long time together, and the greatest part of the People in danger of falling to the Quakers.  
Rem. The Difference between Preaching Freely for the Good of Souls, and for a Salary or Forced Maintenance, which these Men herein from Experience assign, saying the Reason of their being not well Supplied with a Preacher, was the Smallness of their Pay, which notwithstanding the present Minister Laurence Park coming, it's like from the North, where the Benefices are often smaller, and the People poor, at the Request of some principal Men of the Parish, entered upon the Cure in June, 1691.  
Against whom, say the Certifiers, the Quakers have been in a continual Rage, for being disappointed of their Prey: Such Instances as at present occur to our Minds, are these, viz.  
The Wife of one Beckett a Quaker gave herself the trouble of going Three Miles to the Minister's House, on purpose to vex him with Quakerly Questions, in a quibbling way, upon Ascention-Day Morning, 1695.  
Rem. This is brought as an Instance to prove the Quakers continual Rage, for being disappointed of their Prey. 2. To prove they were the Challengers to the late Dispute the 8th of December, 1698.  
Now what pray could this poor Woman get of this Laborious Parson, unless by ask him such Questions she should bereave him of, that he seems but little freighted with; or vex him, because she brought him nothing; will such Stories or Parsons ever bring Credit to the Church, or Cure Souls? Or doth this bespeak he had any Regard to the Doctrine which St. Paul taught in Meekness to Instruct? But this is also brought to prove the Quakers were the Challengers to the late Conference; and yet the Quakers first Letters relating thereto, was not till the 7th of September, 1698. and this Woman went to the Parson in 1695. on purpose to vex him, on Ascention-Day, with Quakerly Questions, as the Certifiers say. I wonder what they were that grieved him; yet why should I wonder, seeing according to the Certificate of these principal Inhabitants, his Family can Witness the Truth of this, as also Mrs. Bishop, a principal Woman of the Town of Barton, who happened to be with the Minister then: Surely these must needs be some Pusling Questions that did so sorely Vex him: But, as Solomon says of the Fool, had he kept Silent, he had been counted Wise. But for a Man, and a Minister to be so Vexed with a Woman's Quakerly Question, shows great Folly, as it doth Weakness, for these Rectors, or Divines, to Print such poor Stuff. But the Certifiers go on, saying.  
We of this Parish, and divers other Persons of Neighbouring Parishes too, do very well remember, that Beckett, the Husband himself, watched our Minister in a Lane (not far from the Church) lined on both sides with People to Dispute, when his Spirits were exhausted with Preaching, and his Strength weakened by performing the Duty of the Day.  
Rem This is brought as another Proof that the Quakers were the Challengers to the Dispute, because this poor Quaker spoke to the Parson in a Lane; surely it's a great Vexation to this Man to be spoken to: But if the Woman had not gone after this Shepherd, and the Man met with him in a Lane, it's greatly to be questioned whether he would have sought them, though peradventure he might have sent for the Tithe, Eggs, Pigs or Geese; for is it not that, and the Rewards that he may expect from the principal inhabitants that Requested him to take the Cure upon him, which encouraged him to Supply it, and mind more than his Flock, or to answer any Quakerly Questions, altho' they go Three Miles to seek their Shepherd, and ask them. But there is another Instance to prove the Challenge was made by the Quakers, because one Philip's a Quaker went above Four Months before the Challenge was made, as these Certifiers declare, viz. One Phillips a Quaker went to disturb our Minister at his own House one Monday in May last, to Challenge him to a Dispute with the Quakers.  
Rem. It's well it was not on Saturday, for that might prevented his next Days Work: But how do these principal Inhabitants of several Parishes know that Phillip's the Quaker did go to disturb their Minister, etc. did they see him, or hear him do it, or did their Minister tell them so, and therefore they Certify on his Say so? Surely such do will never Redound to these clergymen's Credit.  
But they still Certify to one Mason and Beckett's setting up a Conventicle contrary to Law, in an Unlicenced Barn— and they farther Certify for no other Cause, but preserving his Sheep from being devoured by the Wolves, gave our Ministers and Us great occasion to dread an Apostasy of the People from the Christian Faith.  
This, and nothing but this, made Us and our Ministers willing to permit Mr. Bugg among them, to try if he could Conjure down this busy Spirit which possesses the Quakers, and is so troublesome to us.— So that whatever the Quakers may pretend to the contrary, we verily believe they are the Challengers, and none but they. And had the Ministers been permitted to make out their Charge, Quakerism in those parts would have received a mortal Stroke. The Truth of all which is Certified by us, viz. William Beena, William Young, Richard Tailor, George Archer, John Smith, John Wright, Thomas Wade, Thomas Complin, John Goddard, Thomas Warde, Thomas Hubbard, William Prick, Caleb Mayor, Grace Lampson, Mary Park, Bartholomew Ramsey, Samuel Chise, William Sargison.  
Rem. First, How doth this prove that the Quakers were the Challengers? 2d. What proof hath L. Park made of his Care to preserve his Sheep from the Wolves, or the People from an Apostasy, so mightily dreaded? Did he go from House to House, and in Meekness Instruct, or by Good Life, Sound Doctrine, and the holy Scripture, Convince any of their Errors? Where are the Fruits of his Labours, and Seals of his Ministry? What must demonstrate him to be a Minister of Christ? (for he, nor none of the Managers, when urged to it by the Quakers at West-Dereham would undertake to prove themselves such) Or must his being vexed with the Woman for ask him Questions be the proof, or his sending for Mr. Bugg, that is Apostatised from the Quakers, or Permitting him to come? And by the way let me Remark that word Permitting; for that shows neither their Ministers, or They, cared much for him, yet were willing to Permit him to come among his Sheep: Indeed it was a hazard, for one Scabby Sheep is apt to spoil a whole Flock, yet if Mr. Bugg could Conjure down this busy Spirit, which so vexed this poor Parson, he was willing to suffer a Trial, finding his own Ability was not sufficient, and the People also did Permit; which shows this Mr. Bugg hath but little Credit (whatever he is) where he is known: Yet these Subscribers declare their Belief, that the Quakers were the Challengers, and none but they: But this may be from the persuasion of the Parsons, and knowledge of their Timorousness and Inabilities, who declared at West-Dereham it could not be expected that they, Country Parsons, should engage with the London Disputants. Yet if these noted Ministers had made out the Charge, Quakerism would have received a mortal Stroke; by which they grant it hath not. And truly I must Conclude, that these kind of Proceed, and manner of Management, is never like to be to the Reputation of the Church of England, or the Ministers of it: And therefore I am persuaded the Bishop of Norwich, and the moderate Churchmen, will with me Conclude, It's best for all to Love God, and Live well, and then we shall Love one another, and do well; and by well doing put to Silence the Ignorance of Foolish Men; and this becomes Protestant's of all sorts, and not to Quarrel one with another.  Ira odium Generat Concordia nutrit amorem. 
FINIS.