AN ANSWER To a Late PAMPHLET, Called a Sober Dialogue, Between a Scotch Presbyterian a London Churchman, and a Real Quaker, scandalously reflecting on the Church of England, As if her Doctrine and Common-Prayer did justify the Antichristian Doctrine, of the Real Quaker, viz. That the Light Within, whither in Heathen, or Christian is sufficient to Salvation without any thing else; wherein the plain Deism and Antichristian Principles of the Real Quaker and his Party, and the pretended Churchman, are plainly detected. By a Friend to the Author of the Dialogue, called, a Sober Dialogue, between a Country Friend, a London Friend, and one of G. K.'s Friends. London, Printed for Sam. Clark in George-yard in Lombardstreet. 1698/9. An Answer to a late Pamphlet, called, a Sober Dialogue, etc. PAg. 4. The real Quaker is brought in, saying, I am of Opinion there is nothing more excellent, than Light, or more lasting than Truth, and therefore the Psalmist did well, when he Prayed to join them together, and the walking in one, and loving the other, as they ought to be, would put an end to all those Notions, vain Conceptions, and Imaginations of Men, about which in their prejudiced Minds they trouble themselves and the World? Ans. That place of the Psalmist, to which the real Quaker refers, is grossly Perverted by him, as is the usual way of most of their Teachers to pervert the Scriptures throughout, and to discover the Perversion, let the Words be considered as they are Written in Psal. 43.3. O send out thy light and thy truth, let them lead me, let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacle. Here it is evident to every intelligent Christian, that the Light and Truth that he Prayed for, was not simply the Divine Word, or λογοσ, for he knew that was in all Men, and in all Creatures, it being one of his essential Attributes to be Omnipresent. Nor, Secondly, The common Ilsumination of that Divine Word, as it was in all Men, to wit, Heathens and Infidels; for seeing the Quakers, say all Men, have that already; David had it also; but the Light and Truth that he Prayed for, was some further Degree of special Illumination, and Discovery of Divine Truth, which no Heathens and Infidels had. But if any Degree of Light that David had, was sufficient without any thing else for his Salvation, why did he Pray for more, or why did he believe in Christ that was to come without him, to be a Sacrifice for our Sins, as all the Faithful did? Page the same, The supposed Presbyterian is brought in, saying, he pitieth the Quakers Ignorance, [and so indeed he might very well do] for his affirming that by the Light Within, any can be saved without somewhat else, meaning by that somewhat else, with all true Christians, the Godhead and Manhood of Christ, by the Personal Union of the two Natures, constituting one Christ Jesus, who only as thus considered, is our entire and all-sufficient Saviour; together with all the spiritual and special Blessings that the Faithful have by him, in the use of the ordinary outward Means of Salvation, as the Doctrine of the Holy Scriptures outwardly Preached and Read, etc. Ans. For this, the Churchman bids him hold, and not be too Censorious, as if it were the Doctrine of the Church of England, that the Light within any Man, even (suppose) considered as the divine Word, doth save him, without being made Flesh, that is to say, without his Manhood Personally United to his Godhead, which the least Child in the Church of England that hath learned his Catechism, knoweth to be directly contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England, and all other Christian Churches. Page 5. The Quaker saith, by the Light Within, he means no other than Christ, as the divine Word, or λογοσ, which enlightens every Man that comes into the World, and for the Restoration of Man, God hath given unto every Man, and in, and by this Light, Invites, Calls, Exhorts, and strives with every Man, in order to save them, which as it is received, and not resisted, works the Salvation of all. Ans. Here he discovers plainly his deism, without any Disguise, which is no wonder, seeing G. W. hath given him a Precedent, in his late Antidote, p. 28. Confessing that the Quakers are offended with G. K.'s Doctrine, saying, that the Light within is not sufficient to Salvation, without something else. And here this real Quaker gives us a plain Account, what his Christ is, to wit, the Divine λογοσ, or Word without Christ's Manhood, and all that he did and suffered for us without us, and all that he is now doing for us in Heaven. All which are something else than the Light Within, either Saint or Infidel, and wharever Use or Service the common Illumination hath in all Men, by way of some preparatory Ministration, yet to say it actually saveth, or that Christ actually saveth any Man by it alone, without Christ's Manhood, and Sacrifice, and Mediation in Heaven, is pure Heathenism, and Deism, and renders Christ's Dying to be in vain, and the Preaching and Faith of it unnecessary to any. Page the same. The supposed Presbyterian ving said, that in Men that reproves for Sin, is only the Law Written in the Heart, in p. 6. The Churchman is made to Check the Presbyterian, and to tell him, he sears he does not well consider this Word only; for if it be granted that it's Christ, as the divine Word that reproves for Sin, as the Quakers say, then don't you carry it too far by Asserting its only the Law. Ans. The saying, that in Men that reproves for Sin is only the Law, hath this true obvious Sense, without any strain, to wit, the common Illumination that is in all Men, allowing it to be given by Christ, as a common Gift, as well as our Reasons as Men, are the Gifts of God, and of the divine Word in common to all Mankind. And this Sense the Quaker is obliged to hold to, if he will follow his great Patrons, G. Whitehead, and W. Penn, who have Printed it more than once; that the Quakers do not affirm that Christ is in every Man, but that a Light by or from Christ is in every Man. This the Presbyterian may well say, with the Holy Scriptures, and all sound Christians, that the Light in every Man, in the Sense of G. W. and W. P. by the Light, not understanding Christ, but the Light or Illumination given from Christ to every Man, is only the Law Written in the Heart. Quaker. We search the Scriptures diligently, and find that in Man that reproves for Sin, is the Spirit of him that never sinned, see John 16.7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, etc. Ans. Here the Quakers ignorance and Blindness, (that the Presbyterian doth justly charge him withal) is manifest, that he is not taught according to Scripture, to distinguish betwixt the several inward Ministrations and Operations of one and the same Spirit, and the several inward Lights and Illuminations, all coming from one and the same Author and Fountain, via. God, and Christ (considered as the divine Word) and the Spirit, according to 1 Cor. 12.4, 5, 6. and Rom. 8.15. and his Argument from John 16.7, 8, 9 etc. Is a mere Perversion, it being evident to all truly enlightened Christians, that the Mission of the Spirit, the Comforter that Christ promised should lead them into all Truth, to whom he should be sent, and who should reprove the World for the Sin of not believing in Christ, to wit, Christ Crucified, and should testify to them of Christ, as he suffered Death for our Sins, was not on the account of the common Illumination, given to all Men, which the Disciples had before the Comforter was sent in that special Ministration. And unless he had proved that all Men are reproved by the common Illumination, for their not believing in Christ Crucified, and raised again, which he hath not so much as attempted, his Argument is Vain and Impertinent. And as Impertinent is he in his Arguing from other Places of Scripture; for let the Places be read and considered, and it will appear, they all point at some other and more excellent sort and manner of Hlumination, than that common to all Mankind, the Places are Ephes. 5.13. Psal. 19.7. Rev. 21.24. Rom. 10.8. Heb. 4.12. James 1.21. For all these Places respect the State of Believers in Christ Crucified, and the peculiar Gospel Dispensation, as distinguished from that of Heathens and Infidels, who are said to be without. P. 7. He brings in the Presbyterian, not truly stating the Controversy; but perverts his opposite words, in this his Dialogue, in way of answer to that called, a sober Dialogue between a Country Friend, a London Friend, and one of G. K. 's Friends; for whereas the words in that Dialogue were, that what simply condemns us for Sin, does not forgive us; this unfair Quaker leaves out the word simply, which was mainly necessary, truly to state the Controversy, viz. whither that Principle within Men, that only reproves or condemns them for Sin, and but convinceth of some moral duties, and doth not propose to them that great Object of Faith, Christ Jesus, as he suffered Death on the Cross, for the remission of our Sins, doth save them, without Christ Crucified, and without all Faith in him, as such, the word simply having the same signification with the word only. Pag. 8. He excuseth G. Whitehead's cursing G. K. who never cursed any of them, but prays for them, that he and G. W. are not apt to revile and curse: This is like a Man, that being often Drunk, saith he is not apt to be Drunk; but why then hath G. W. done it; his too great aptness to curse and revile is too apparent by sad instances, yea he hath not only cursed G. K. but joined with some of his Brethren to damn the Three Persons of the ever Holy and Blessed Trinity to the Pit, witness his and their Book in Answer to Townsend's, Signed by him, and others, called, Ishmael, etc. his late Excuse of its being either wrong Writ, or wrong Printed, (without a plain Retractation) is insufficient; Writ about forty Years after the former, in that called the Quakers Cleared. Page 9 He blames his Opponent, for saying, that Cornelius was not to be saved by the Light within, without something else, but gives no Answer to the Argument brought by his Opponent in the forementioned Dialogue, p. 9 How that an Angel must be sent to him to tell him, that he must send for Simon Peter, which was to tell him words, by which he must be saved, and these words were to teach him, that he was to be saved, not simply, or only by the Light, or Christ within him, without Christ that was outwardly Crucified, and Faith in him. Page 9 He proceeds in his false Way of Stating the Controversy, and Arguing from a false Hypothesis, that because that Light in all Men is God, and God is sufficient and able to save all. For the true Controversy is not, what God can do, but what Sufficiency of Help he hath given to all Men for their eternal Salvation; as whether this Help is only and alone the Light within, as it signifies the common Illumination, or as it signifies the Divine Word, as giving to Men, only an inward Illumination, discovering God's eternal Power, and some moral Principles of Sobriety and Justice, and general Piety towards God, considered only as a Creator, without Christ Crucified, etc. And without any special Revelation of God concerning Christ, as he was Crucified, died for our Sins, rose and Ascended. This is the true State of the Question, and by the whole Tenor of this Quakers Discourse, he fully agrees with his mere Deist Brethren, particularly G. W. and W. P. That hold that the Light within every Man, is sufficient to his Salvation, without any thing else, i. e. Christ Crucified, and without all Faith in him as such. Page 10. Having Perverted, and Misapplied several places of Scripture, as Rom. 3.25. Isaiah 4.21. Isaiah 60.5. etc. [All which have a special Reference to Christ without us, as he is offered in the Doctrine of the Gospel, together with the special Inspirations and Illuminations given to the Faithful, in the belief of the Gospel] to prove that the Light within saveth without any thing else, he bringeth in his Churchman, to assent to, and approve of all this his gross Perversion, and Misapplication of the Scriptures, and makes his Churchman assent to the Quakers Proof, which he calls his Principal Proof out of the Gospel, to be Read on Christmas Day, adding, that he remembers they, (i. e. the Church of England) Pray that God would inspire them with his holy Spirit, that they may always think and do those things which please him, whence he infers, and then we must needs have this within us, etc. Answ. What a Fictitious and Treacherous, as well as Ignorant Churchman the Quaker here introduceth; as if the Church of England by this Prayer, Prayed only to be saved by the common Illumination, and did not Pray for special superadded Illuminations, and Inspirations, above, and beyond the common. But whereas he feigns the Author of the Dialogue to be a Scotch Presbyterian, the Quakers infallible Discerning hath here failed him; for that Author is neither Presbyterian, nor Scotchman. Page 13. The Quaker saith, they faithfully believe all those things, and all other holy Doctrines contained in the holy Scriptures, viz. That Christ has bought us with his most precious Blood, the Resurrection of that holy Body, with its Ascension into Heaven. Answ. But how do they believe them? in a quite other Sense, than is either meant in Scripture, or understood by all sound Christians. Page 15. The Quaker saith, yea, that Spirit which he promised should bring all things to our Remembrance, we have received, and it brings to our Remembrance God's great love in sending his Son, and Christ's great Love in Suffering and Dying for us, and bows our Spirits, and tenders our Hearts in the living Remembrance of him, and inables us in true Humility to bless God, and gave thanks to him, etc. Answ. How this seeming Confession doth consist with his and his brethren's saying, the Light within them, and in every Man, is sufficient to Salvation, without any thing else, I leave to Impartial and Intelligent Readers to Judge; as also how it is consistent with G. W.'s saying, its contrary to Rom. 10. and Deut. 30. To say, we are to believe in a Christ, whose Person is ascended into Heaven above the Clouds without us, and that a Personal Being of Christ in Heaven without us, is Muggletonism and Anthropomorphitisme. And lastly, how is this Confession consistent with the Words of J. W. one of their Brethren, in his Book, called, the Doctrine of Perfection Vindicated, by J. W. Printed for R. Wilson, 1663. p. 18. Page 18. Therefore all came down to that of God, made manifest in you, and receive it with a willing Mind, etc. p. 19 For it is said to be a Schoolmaster to bring you to Christ, the Light and Lamb of God, who takes away Sin, etc. Even by slaying it upon the Cross, which is the Power of God which overcomes, or rather comes over, and so brings under the Power of Darkness, etc. So when you come to know this, you will cease remembering his Death at Jerusalem, and will come to see how he hath been Crucified in you, etc. Their common Answer, that Christ cannot be divided, used by the Quaker in this Dialogue in several places, is evidently against them; for why then do they make the Light within every Man sufficient to Salvation, without the Manhood of Christ without them? but though Christ without, and Christ within, cannot be divided, as neither his Godhead from his Manhood, nor his Spirit from his Body, yet they are distinguished, and the Spirit is not the Body, nor is the Body and Manhood of Christ in Believers, though some of them say they have whole Christ in them, God, and Man, Flesh, and Spirit, as G. F. hath affirmed in his Great Mystery, and W. Penn hath justified him in his so saying; that because they eat his Flesh, therefore it is in them vainly and ignorantly arguing from a Metaphorical Eating, to a literal and carnal Eating. Page 20. His Evasion, as to the saying of some of them, that they are not unprofitable Servants, because they acknowledge they are not able to do any thing that good is without Christ, is fallacious, and reacheth not to the Sense of Christ's Words, When ye have done all that ye ought to do, say, ye are unprofitable Servants, which comprehends all that holy Men can or aught to do, even by the help of Christ, without whom, they neither can, nor aught to do any good. Page the same, He pretends to own, that great is the Mystery of Godliness, God was manifest in the Flesh, in this he is Fallacious, if he be of one Mind with W. P. who hath said in Print, that the Work of Regeneration is much more a Mystery, than God manifest in the Flesh. Page 21. He gives no plain Answer to that Query, whether must all our Spirits go when we die, must all go into the Quakers for Rest and Peace. But Retorts the Question from the Apostles, saying, that Christ within, was the Hope of Glory. What! (saith he) must all go into the Apostles and Primitive Christians for Rest and Peace? But this is an idle Retorsion, neither Paul, or any of the Primitive Christians ever said that Christ, only within was their Hope of Glory, nor ever blamed the Doctrine of a local Heaven and Hell without Men; as some of your chief Men have done, particularly W. P. calling it Mahometan, and both G. W. and W. P. have Printed against the deceased Saints, expecting any future Resurrection of the Body, arguing, that it would follow, they were in a State of Purgatory at the present time. Page 21. In his seeming to magnify the Scriptures, which he saith, they are willing to take for the Confession of their Faith, [which yet that they do not, is evident, otherwise they could not be guilty of such gross Errors] he brings them down to a Level with their own Writing, if not rather below them; for this he saith, and we esteem them better than any Man, or Men ever did, or can make, that have not the Guidance of that Spirit the holy Men were guided by. For seeing they believe they are infallibly Guided by the same holy Spirit, it is a plain Insinuation, the Quakers Writings being given forth by the Guidance of the same holy Spirit, are at least as good, if not better, and if this be not the plain Consequence of his Words, I leave the impartial Reader to Judge, together with the rest. Some further Answer by another Hand, with some Words of tender Exhortation Advice, etc. AS for the real Quaker, I have somewhat to offer to him, since he calls himself a real Quaker, I would fain know what a Quaker signifies, and whether it be a better or more proper Name than a Christian; besides, I think the Quaker is deceived in giving himself that Name, believing that never any of them had those dreadful Sights as Moses and Habakkuk, and the Apostle Paul. Pray, which of them ever heard the Voice of God speaking to them with their outward Ears, or have heard or seen the Lords Christ without them; but they say they have heard his Voice inwardly, and seen his Shape inwardly; so have thousands that never called themselves by that Name, and they pretend to no other Light, than what enlightens every Man that comes into the World, and since it is so universal, that every Man has it, why is the Dispensation thought so astonishing to them, as to cause such Horror and Trembling to them above all Mankind besides. Surely the Quaker would make us believe hereby that the Light in every Man meats with greater Opposition in them, because of their many and great Sins, than it meats with in many other Men; I have often known that some which have been reproved by that Light, have greatly rejoiced, believing it to be a Sign, that their Consciences are yet alive, and not made Shipwreck of; so that by the Name they give themselves, we may believe them to be the greatest of Sinners; otherwise why should such Horror attend them, more than all the World besides. One would think they were very dark to be thus amazed at the sight of that Light that is so common to every Man in the World, and to rejoice in the Name of a Quaker, more than in the Name of a Child of Light, that being first given to them, but they slighted that Name, and chose rather the Name of a Quaker, which no true Child of Light would ever have done, because that Trembling is a Dispensation of Terror and Sorrow, which is said to attend the Night, but Joy comes in the Morning, and you tell all the World that there is no better nor higher a State than that of the Quaker; pray what are those great Attainments you have arrived at beyond other People; it may be you will say you have left the Fashions and Language of the World, well, and what then? Will all this quiet a Conscience wounded with Sin? I tell you nay, Sheep's Clothing will not do, when you will not hear the voice of the true Shepherd, nor follow his Commandments. We Read of but one Shepherd, and one Sheep-fold, which was that good Shepherd that laid down his Life for his Sheep. And in your Dialogue, you tell us, that the Light in every Man is the divine Word, which you call Christ; 'tis true, Christ was that divine Word in the beginning with God, and here you make a full stop, and tell us that that does enlighten every Man that comes into the World, and Calls, Exhorts, and strives with every Man, in order to save them, which if received, works the Salvation of all. Now, if the Divine Word, as it was in the beginning, saves all Mankind; pray what was remaining for that Word to do after it was made Flesh; did not all the holy Men of old know that Divine Word, and its Operation, far beyond the best of you? And yet how did they rejoice, that by Faith they saw Christ's Day in the Flesh, they clearly saw that great Mystery of Godliness, Christ manifest in the Flesh; and does not St. John begin with the Creation, and tells us that in the beginning was the Word, and how that Word did Operate in being the Light of Men, and so goes down to John the Baptist, and from him to the Birth of Christ; saying in the 14th verse, that that Divine Word was made flesh, and dwelled among them, and saith he, we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. And pray was not old Simeon, well acquainted with that Divine Word, which was the Light of Men; yet when he saw the Child Jesus, he said, now let thy Servant departed in Peace, for my Eyes have seen thy Salvation, a Light to Lighten the Gentiles, and the Glory of thy People Israel. And another Prophetess gave a full Testimony to all that looked, for Redemption in Israel. Now, here is that Divine Word, which under the Law did show Man his Sin, and under the Gospel saves him from Sin; pray, which of those two was the most glorious Manifestation to Mankind, as to that Prophecy in John the 16th. verse the 7.8, 9, 10, 11, 13. Pray consider to whom our Lord speaks; was it not to his afflicted Disciples, whom he was just a going to leave in a dark and wicked World, and therefore told them that he would send that Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, which would guide them into all Truth. [Mind] he was a Guide to the Disciples, but a Reprover to the World of Sin, because they believed not in Christ Jesus, and saith our Lord in the 14th verse, He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you; for he shall not speak of himself, but what soever he shall hear, that shall he speak. Here you see, and as you desired some places of Scripture, that the holy Ghost, or Comforter, does not save without Christ Jesus, neither is the Holy Ghost said to be the Christ, but he did take of Christ, and was a Messenger from Christ, to Comfort his suffering Disciples in his absence, and to confirm that Doctrine. And did you ever read that any did receive the Holy Ghost, that did not believe in Christ Jesus, as he outwardly came in the Flesh. And where is the Man that can say among any of the Quakers, that he has received the Holy Ghost, as it was given in the Apostles Days; notwithstanding the real Quaker saith that every Man has it, and saith, that with all the Presbyterians Logic, and the outward Knowledge of Christ, or of what he hath suffered outwardly for us, he cannot stop the Cries of that which Reproves for Sin. I believe no true Christian desires to stop its cry against Sin; but methinks the Man should have been more serious, then to put Logic, and the outward Knowledge of what Christ did, and suffered together. I fear the real Quaker esteems them too much alike; he says further, that with all thy Art and Skill, thou canst not prove that Water Baptism was commanded by Christ, 'tis a strange saying, and vain enough. But pray what thinks he of the 3d of St. John, the 26th verse, What were all they Baptised with that came to Christ? That 'tis said that Jesus Baptised not, but his Disciples did, and how should they Baptise with the Holy Ghost, when Christ was not yet gone from them, and therefore had not yet seen the Holy Ghost; and did not Peter, on his relating of the Holy Ghost's falling on Cornelius' Family say, that then he remembered the Words of the Lord, how they should be Baptised with the Holy Ghost, and yet he Administered Water after, and can any Man be so Ignorant, as to believe that the Holy Apostles of our Lord would have Baptised with Water, had they not known that it was their Lord and Master's Will and Commandment, whatever others may do without Commission, they were too Holy, and too Spiritual to do such things. He speaks after the like manner concerning the Lord's Supper, and then Reflects on G. K. what he Wrote when he was one of them, I would to God they were as honest to acknowledge their being mistaken; as he has done both by Word and Writing, and in that thing they do but the more expose themselves, since they never found fault with him, till they saw him further enlightened. It is said that Jesus did not commit himself to all Men, because he knew what was in Man; how then is he in every Man, a sufficient Saviour only by that common Illumination? And now I have a few Words to the honest and sober Quakers: My Friends, I do beseech you to search the Holy Scriptures, and believe they were Written for our Learning, for our Conviction, for our Reproof, that the Man of God may be furnished to every good Work, notwithstanding your Teachers bids you only to mind, that in your own Hearts, I do tell you that to bring your own Deeds to the Light, is to bring them to the Doctrine of Christ, and his Apostles, as God shall be pleased specially to enlighten you to understand it; why should you lean to your own Understanding, when the great God has made such wonderful Provision for you, and has set it on a Candlestick, for all Men to see the Light thereof in our Land, tho' not so in all Lands. Pray what a Price did both the Old and New Testament cost them that conveyed it to us; did it not come swimming to us in a River of Blood, and shall we so ill requite the great God, and those dear Servants and Messengers, as to tell we have no need of their Testimonies or Doctrine; for every Man has that in himself that will save him, if he hearkens to its Voice. What Ingratitude is this to those holy Martyrs, whose Blood cries, how long e'er thou avenge us on them that dwell on the Earth. And where do you find that God ever left any of his chosen one's to the common Manifestation of Light, only in themselves, that being too much vailed by the Fall of Man, had Man been left to that Witness, without higher Manifestations to excite Faith and Hope of Redemption, by an Object beyong themselves; how had they fainted in their Minds, and considering how their Father Adam had fallen before them who doubtless had more Light than any earthly Creatures, since he was in the Paradise of God. I must needs say I am concerned for you, and it makes me even tremble to see on what a brink of danger you stand; there are too many Children that can speak before they go, which is no good Sign; I fear you have not tried your own Frailty, that talk thus big. I am sure that there are some among you that has as much need to pray for the Forgiveness of Sin, as any People in the World has, and yet at the same time will say that they have that in themselves that is able to save them from all Sin; they may as well say they have a Staff in their Hands, but will not make use of it, so do nothing but stumble and fall; will not all the World condemn you, and say, since these Men have so great a Light, as is sufficient to save them, why do they not follow it, but fall into such horrid Mistakes in their way. I do really believe, whenever God opens the Eyes of your Teachers, which have caused you to err, to see what they have done, and what they are doing, they will then deserve the Name of Quaker, more than ever they did? I pray God open their Eyes, for your and their own sakes, that they may have their Suffering rather in this Life, then in that which is to come. Do not mistake me, and think that I design to lessen the Light that in Man that Reproves for Sin, or the Law Written in the Heart: as the Apostle plainly calls it, and said he had not known Sin, but by the Law, but Christ's Blood is the Way by which we must enter in. Therefore do not think of climbing up another way. I do entreat you, my Friends to read the Scriptures, especially the New Testament, through and through again, and pray to the Lord for Wisdom in the Reading of them, and they will sufficiently furnish you with Wisdom, that is able to make you wise to Salvation, through Faith in Christ Jesus, and know withal that these Lines are Written from one that is your real and hearty Friend, that Prays for your Salvation. FINIS.