THE ALLEGATIONS OF THE Turkey Company and Others AGAINST THE East-India-Company, Relating to the Management of that Trade: Presented to the Right Honourable the Lords of His Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, the 17th. of August, 1681. Together with the Answer of the said East-India-Company thereunto, Delivered in Writing the 22th. instant according to their Lordship's Order, Upon which a Hearing was had before their Lordships the 24. of the said Month. The present State of Trade between the Company of Merchants Trading in the Dominions of the Grand Signior, and the Company of Merchants Trading into the East-Indies, compared as it now stands in reference to the Common benefit and advantage of England. THE Company of Merchants Trading into the Dominions of the Grand Signior, have for near one hundred years passed constantly Exported great quantities of the Woollen Manufactures, and other Commodities of the Growth of England into Turkey, to the great Enriching of this Nation; And do now more especially carry out thither or the like Native Commodities yearly to the value of about Five Hundred Thousand Pounds sterling; in return of which, the Goods Imported are, Raw silks, Gauls, Grograms, Yarn, and Cotton, etc. All which as well those Imported as Exported, are Manufactured in England, and afford Bread to the industrious poor of this Nation. I. The East-India Company, on the other side, Export from England immense quantities of Gold and Silver, with an inconsiderable quantity of Cloth, which serves them only to give a colour of some benefit to the Nation, or rather to attemper and moderate the Complaint which otherwise would be made against them. In return of which their chiefest Commodities are Calicoes, Pepper, wrought Silks, and a deceitful sort of Raw silk, Calicoes, and wrought silks Manufactured in India, being an evident damage to the Poor of this Nation, and the latter of Raw silks an infallible destruction to the Turkey Trade, for in regard that Turkey doth not yield a sufficient quantity of Commodities, to return for one fourth part of our English Manufactures Exported thither, the remaining Balance which is three quarters of Our Trade, is well-poized, by Raw silks, which if supplied by that of a base and worse sort out of India, the most considerable part of the Turkey Importations, and consequently the Cloth Trade of England must fail: And then it will appear how different it is, in reference to the welfare of His Majesty's People, to have Silks purchased with the Bullion, rather than with the Manufactory of this Nation. The Constitution of the Turkey Company being a regulated Company, and not driven by a Joint-stock, is open and comprehensive, admitting any that are bred Merchants, such as are Sons and Apprentices to Freemen, challenge their Freedom by service of seven years, such as are, and have been neither, yet upon payment of Twenty Five pound, if under Twenty seven years of Age, or if above, upon payment of Fifty pounds, are freely admitted into all the Privileges of the Turkey Company, and each to Adventure and Trade for as much as he is able, by which open way of dealing, this Company is increased, from sixty or seventy persons, who Forty years passed wholly drove the Trade, to at least Five Hundred Traders, who do Annually breed at least One Hundred Nobleman's and gentlemen's Sons in the Turkey Trade, and daily new admissions are made, by which it may plainly appear how open his Majesty's Charter lies, and how diffusive his Majesty's Goodness therein is, without any restraint or appropriation to particular Persons. II. The East-India Company on the other side, manage their Trade by a Joint Stock, confined to the narrow compass of some few persons, exclusive to all others, under the penalty of Mulcts, Fines, Seizures, and other extraordinary proceed. And upon an exact inquiry it will be found, that this Stock is so engrossed, that about ten or twelve men have the absolute management of the whole Trade (there being one who hath at least Eighty Votes) and about forty men do not only divide the Major part of the gains, but not content therewith, do also indirectly appropriate to themselves a greater profit in a separate Trade, as in Musk, Ambergreese, etc. and till of late in Diamonds also: So that here is the certain effect of a Monopoly to enrich some few, and empoverish many— Moreover the East-India Company by their Constitution are incapable of breeding up any persons under the Notion of an East-India Merchant: For they can neither give them Freedom, nor other Privilege to Trade, as the Turkey Company doth, unless they become purchasers of part of the Joint-stock, as any one may do who is Master of Money. The Stock of the Turkey Company is as large as the Estates of the many Traders are, and is really greater than the Trade will bear under the present discouragement and Checks given to it by the East-India Company, and if any loss or damages befalls this Stock, every particular Member bears the loss of his own Adventure, with no damage to the Public. III. The East-India Company, on the other side, have a fixed Joint-stock of about three Hundred and seventy Thousand pounds: And because they find it more to their advantage to Trade with Money at Interest, than to enlarge their own Stock, they have borrowed at least six hundred and fifty thousand pounds on their common Seal, at the inconsiderable Interest of three or four per Cent. whereby they Trade with the Treasure of the Nation, dividing to themselves what sums they please, not only out of the profit, but also out of the principal, as by a late example of the last year may appear, when they divided in One year two hundred and sixty Thousand pounds, though at the same time they owed above six hundred Thousand pounds at Interest. But in case any misfortune happens to what danger will all the Lender's of so great a part of the Treasure of the Nation be exposed, when the flourishing Estates of particular men cannot be made liable to those Debts, contracted under the Common Seal, which gave Life and Being to them, and from whence they arose; So that the East-India Company against the Rules of Justice and Reason, securely enjoy the benefit of the Trade, and yet have little share in the hazard and loss thereof. Upon consideration of the whole matter, it is humbly hoped, that for relief of the now languishing, though most useful and necessary Turkey Trade; His Majesty will be graciously pleased, to permit to the Turkey Company, the exercise of Trade in the Red Sea, and all other the Dominions of the Grand Signior, according to the large extent of their Charter, and access thereunto, by the most convenient passages; and to forbid the East-India Company, to import Raw, or wrought Silks, into England. And if this doth not seem a reasonable expedient, that then His Majesty would be pleased to allot and limit a time to the East-India Company, to put an end to this present Joint-stock, (as by His Majesty's Charter is provided) and that Books be laid open for New subscriptions, whereby a larger Joint-stock may be raised, without Loans, or Money at Interest, so that the Turkey Company who by the encroachment of the East-India Company upon them, have lost or must lose the greatest part of their Trade, may have some reparation by partaking of theirs. And that by Proviso in the New Charter, they may be defended by a Prohibition of Raw, and wrought Silks out of India, which is not only a certain Ruin to the Turkey Trade, but consequently a prejudice to the whole Nation. Reasons against the Management of the East-India Trade, as now driven under the present Joint-Stock. 1. THE continuance of the Stock which has now lasted 24 Years, is against the East-India Companies first proposal in their Preamble; Whereby it was agreed, That at seven Years end the Stock should be balanced and divided, and a new Subscription made; and that any Persons at the said seven Years end, might go out or come in, upon a valuation then to be made known; tho' it be now above 3 times seven Years, and no such thing done. 'Tis true the Company declared about that time, that such as would come in, or go out, should do it by such a time then prefixed, but no valuation being made Public beforehand, the Goers out, or Comers in, might be wronged unavoidably, as well by raising the Valuation upon the One, as sinking it upon the Other, as they pleased; and this was the Reason that then no one Person either went out or came in, which mischief by a fixed previous Valuation, as it was first proposed, would have been avoided. And this Preamble, after it had served for a specious pretence to draw in subscribers, was laid aside and became useless; so that the Fish being taken, the Net was fling away. 2. The East-India Company have sent over into India, Throwsters, Weavers, and Dyers, and actually set up there a Manufacture of Silk, which not only by instructing the Indians in making these Manufactures, but by Importing them ready made, and Died, into England, is an unspeakable impoverishment of the working People of this Kingdom, who would otherwise be employed therein, and to the Ruin of many thousands of Families here. 3. It being above 24 Years since the Stock was first underwritten, though many of the first Subscribers must needs fall off, yet there is no liberty for young Merchants to come in on a New Subscription. And there are Thousands of Able and Active Merchants bred up since their Stock begun, which are excluded so Rich and Great a Trade, merely because they were not born sooner, or Bred up at that time; and nothing can be more Material, and Rational, than to plant New ones in the place of Old, That so the Spirit of Trade, like that of the Blood, may be kept in a constant Circulation. 4. That so long Continuance of the Stock, is also the Reason, that the whole Management thereof is fallen into the hands of 10 or 12 Men, and in all likelihood in a few years may come into the hands of 3 or 4, in regard those that have the greatest Stock still buy more, and one of them at present hath at least 80 Votes, by which plurality of Voices in one Man, not only the whole Trade of so many vast and rich Countries is Governed, but the Profit thereof shared by a very few Persons. 5. The East-India Company Export great quantities of Bullion, with a small quantity of Cloth, which they do only for a colour to gild over the Damage of their Exporting Money, or else to Moderate the Complaint would be otherwise made against them, and as they are little or no benefit to the Nation, by their Exporting any Manufacture thereof, so they import scarce any thing but what is ready Manufactured, as Calicoes, and wrought silks; excepting lately a deceitful sort of fuzzy slight Silk, a pound whereof being Died, weighs at least 4 ounces more than it did before the Dying, whereas the best Silk weighs rather one ounce or two less after Dying. And hence it might be Considered, how different it is in Reference to the Welfare of England, to have foreign Importations purchased with the Bullion, rather than with the Manufactory of our own Nation. 6. The Company being in all 550 Persons, as they pretend, there is not above one fifth of them Merchants, and the Government of the Trade lies in the hands of those few Merchants only, who by their skill in Trade, whereof the others are ignorant, set up a particular Interest, and drove a Trade for themselves, separate from the joint Stock, and appropriate the greatest quantity of several of the best Commodities to themselves, with Limitation and Restraints, to others of the same Company, whereby under a Pretence of a General Interest, a particular one is carried on, and promoted, and the private Interest of a few is managed distinctly, and apart from the public joint-Stock; as for Example, Musk, Ambergris, etc. and till of late Diamonds were limited, and restrained to certain Persons so and so qualified, separate and distinct from the Account of the joint-Stock, by which indirect Artifices it becomes nearly related to a Monopoly, to enrich a few, and to impoverish many. And the Government of the Company being in the hands of those few, which are Merchants, and always of the Committee; They have another advantage of preferring their separate, and private Trade, before the Public joint-Stock, in regard the Companies Factors abroad, as well as the Committee men at home are managed wholly by those few that have great Stocks, who by that means having so great a Plurality of Votes, can displace both the one and the other, when they please, and put in such as shall prefer their private Interest, so that their Committee-Men, and Factors must be subservient to the separate Interest, for fear of their being turned out of their Employment. And hence it comes to pass, that many of the choicest and richest Goods, are sent home, on the private account of Particular Men, which are seldom or never sent home on Account of the Joint-Stock. The Particular and distinct Interest, being always preferred before the General and Public, which Corruptions would be prevented, if upon the Commencement of a New Stock, its duration were limited to a short Time, and the Subscriptions to a Certain sum, not to be exceeded. 7. The present Stock, being not above three hundred and seventy eight Thousand Pounds, would by a New subscription in one or more Stocks, be enlarged to 2 or 3 Millions, and so the more Money is Negotiated, the more Merchants, and other people, would be set on work, the more Ships and Mariners employed, the Trade more Extensive and National, the Commodities of those parts made Cheaper, and more got to the Kingdom in general, besides to his Majesty in particular, by his Customs. 8. Compare the largeness and extent of Companies Privileges from the Cape of Good Hope to the straits of Magellan, which is near two third Parts of the Trading World, with the smallness of their Stock, and by such Comparison it must needs appear their Stock is far too little, for the Trade of so many vast and rich Countries. And 'tis evident in Fact, that no Trade at all is driven to many of them, as Persia, Japan, Arrachan, Achein, St. Laurence, Sumatra, Pegu, Madagascar, Mosambique, Sofala, Melinde, Borneo, Zeiloan, and many others, and yet while they Trade not thither themselves, they violently keep out others who would Trade, for their Stock being so small, they only manage such Trades which yields very great and excessive Profit, and neglect others, which probably might Answer, though not so immense a Profit, yet a very good Advantage, and more proportionable, to the time and hazard, than any Trade in Europe; which Places if Traded to, would not only carry off a great quantity of our English Commodities, but would also by Trading there, from one Port to another vend a large proportion of Indian Commodities, and the Profit and Bullion arising thereby, would in a great measure supply, if not totally prevent, the Exportation of Bullion out of England. 9 Another Evidence that their Stock is too little for their Trade, may be their borrowing six hundred thousand Pounds at Interest, which besides the unmerchant-like way of Trading, by preferring a Dead to a Quick Stock, and electing rather to Trade with Money at Interest, than to enlarge their Stock by new subscriptions, is also a Public danger to the Nation; for while they borrow so great a part of the Treasure of the Kingdom, at so low an Interest as 3 per Cent. they every themselves by the Common Hazard, and divide and share what they please, not only out of the Profit but out of the Principal itself, the last Year dividing two hundred and sixty thousand Pounds, when at the same time, they owed six hundred thousand Pounds at Interest. So that the Lender's clearly venture the hazard of their Principal to Sea, for 3 per Cent. while the Company make 50 per Cent. of it, without any hazard at all. And if any loss should happen by Captures at Sea, Stormes or other Accidents, the Lender's of so great a Treasure have only the Companies Common Seal to depend on, which in such Case is no security at all, for no one Member is obliged to make satisfaction, as hath been evident by several late Examples of the like Nature. THE East-India-Companys ANSWER. To the Right Honourable the Lords of his Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council. May it please your Lordships, IN Obedience to your Lordship's Order of the 17th. Instant, we do give the following Answer, to every thing we think Material, in the Turkey Companies Papers, presented to your Lordships. First, To the First Particular. 1. We pray your Lordships, as to the Quantity and Value of Cloth and Bullion Exported by each Company, to give no more Credit to the Turkey Merchants, than to ourselves, but that the Entry at his Majesty's Customhouse may be the Measure. 2. We must say, which we hope will not be denied by the Turkey Merchants, that generally, the Cloth that we Export for the East-Indies is finer and of more Value, each piece of Cloth, than what the Turkey Company do usually Export. 3. If we are rightly informed, the Medium of the number of Clothes Exported, by the Turkey Company this last Three Years, doth not exceed 19000 Clothes, or thereabouts per annum; a greater quantity than which, (in value at least) the East-India Company may probably Ship out this Year, if their Factory at Amoy in China, be not surprised by the Tartars; of which there was a doubtful Report in India, when the last Ships came from Bantam: And within seven Years, if the Company be not obstructed, they may Export more Cloth yearly, than ever the Turkey Company did or can do; Although formerly, before the East-India Company had any Entrance into the Trade of China and Japan, the Turkey Companies Exportation of Cloth, did much exceed the East-India Companies. 4. We say, and it will be found by the Entries at the Customhouse, that the Turkey Company do send out yearly, besides their Cloth, great quantities of pieces of Eight from England, for the Purchase of their Raw-silk in Turkey; as well as great quantities of the like Species of Bullion from France, Spain, and Italy, which otherwise would come for England. Secondly, To the second Particular, concerning the comparison they make, between the Constitution of the Turkey Company, and the East-India Company; We say, there hath been so much Printed, and Published, in most of the European Languages, and so many Consultations, and Debates, in the great Councils of Europe, concerning Joynt-Stocks for the East-India Trade, within these two or three last Ages; and in all of them, the Result hath been for a Joint-stock, that we think it would be impertinent to trouble your Lordships with any long discourse concerning it; but briefly; 1. It cannot be denied, by any Reasonable man, but that a Joint-stock is capable of a far greater extension as to the number of Traders, and largeness of Stock, than any Regulated Company whatsoever, because in a Joint-Stock, Noblemen, Gentlemen, Shopkeepers, Widows, and Orphans, all the King's Subjects of any Profession or Degree, may be Traders, and employ their Stocks; whereas in a Regulated Company, such as the Turkey Company is, by their own showing, none can be Traders, but such as they call Legitimate, or bred Merchants. 2. And which is a consequence of the former Reason, if the Trade of India were laid open, the Adventurers for India would certainly prove less by three quarters, than now they are; for in such case, those that have the skill only, would run away with the whole Trade, as in Fact they did, when that Trade was open about five and twenty years past. 3. Though some few men have great Adventures in the present East-India-Stock, the number of all the Adventurers is now above six hundred Persons, very many new ones having come in of late. 4. As to the indulged Trade, which all Adventurers (by the present Rules of the Company) have liberty to Trade in; every Adventurer without exception hath as full liberty according to his proportion of Stock as the Governor, Deputy, or any of the Committees; The same being not to exceed one fifth part of his Stock. And we can't apprehend, how it can be pretended, that such indulged Trade is any way detrimental to the Nation, although it may be some abatement of Gain to the United Stock; which therefore, the greatest Adventurers in the Committee, have constantly endeavoured to subdue, and have done it gradually every year; per saltum it cannot be done; It being not the work of a Year, nor of an Age, or two, to build up an East-India Trade to perfection, though it may be destroyed in a day; if interessed or unthinking Persons Counsel might be taken. This truth is most eminently visible in the proceed of the Court France in their East-India Trade, these last Fourteen Years; that King, in the Constitution of his East-India-Company spared not for cost to obtain the best advice in Europe: Gave immense Rewards to such as contributed any intelligence material to the laying of his Foundation; and for the encouragement of the first Adventurers, gave the privilege of the Noblesse to any Person that should subscribe a considerable sum: Advanced to the Company without Interest for Ten Years, the fifth part of the whole designed Stock: Lent them for two or three Years, twelve of his great Men of War: And hath very lately for the further encouragement of the said French East-India Company, given them gratis for ever that vast sum which he first advanced to them without Interest. And yet we see that Company doth yet make very little of it. And lest the French instance aforesaid, should be seemingly obviated by saying, they were beaten by the Dutch, and so their Company spoiled: We must beg your Lordship's pardon for enlarging this digression, so far, as to inform your Lordships, that the East-India Company formerly, notwithstanding they had a Stock of Fifteen hundred thousand pounds, did advance in Profit but twelve and an half in fifteen Years, from 1617. to 1632. And also several other English Stocks, since that time, have not been successful in their attempts. And this very present Stock, when the best experienced Persons of that time had laboured seven Years in it, after their Foundation; the Stock was sold for sixty per Cent. of the Principal. 5. For the number of Eighty Vote, which as is alleged, some single Person has in the choice of the Committees; We say, we know of no one Adventurer that hath sixty Votes at this time; but most reasonable it is as hath been ever practised in this, and the Royal Company, and every joint-Stock, that each Adventurer should Vote according to his Stock: And we cannot imagine why any Man read in History and Trade, should conceive it detrimental to the Nation for any Person to purchase any kind of Personal Estate, that he can honestly obtain; the rather, because even in Holland itself, it is thought no public damage for one Jew to have six times the Value in their East-India Stock, that ever any English man had in this. But if your Lordships will please to judge all things by their consequence, We do (in all Humility) appeal to your Lordships, whether since this Complaint of some Men having so great Stocks, which is about eight or nine Years continuance, there have not been more great Ships built for the Companies service, than were in Thirty Years before? Whether there hath not been much more of the English Woollen Manufacture Exported than was formerly? Whether the Dutch Stock, which was at 580 pound per cent. or thereabouts, when the English East-India Stock was but at sixty per cent. or little more, have not stood at a stay, or declined, while the English have advanced, so as almost to equalise them in the value of their Stock, and had certainly been above them, by this time, had not they been interrupted, by the late Interlopers, and groundless Complaints. Whether many kinds of Commodities, formerly indulged, have not been yearly taken into the joint-stock? And whether his Majesty's Customs from the East-India Trade, be not more than doubled in value? Whether there have not been very many more Generous, Chargeable, and successful Attempts, for the obtaining of Trade, in the North-Eastern parts of India, viz. Siam, Cochin-China, China, and Japan? which, for aught we know (if throughly obtained) might Vend as much English Manufactures as this Kingdom is able to make: And whether the Interest of the Companies Debts, hath not been abated from six to three per cent.? If these be the Consequences of great Adventures, which all Foreigners, as well as all English Men, will acknowledge, we cannot apprehend the least shadow of Reason why any Persons should suppose such great Stocks to be detrimental to the Kingdom, or to the Company, the greater any Persons Interest is, the greater will his Care, Vigilancy and Industry be. Thirdly, As to the third Particular, touching the smallness of the East-India Companies Trading Stock, and the greatness of their Debt, and the lowness of their Interest, which are all Confounded in the said Paper; We must Crave your Lordship's leave to separate, for your Lordships more clear Satisfaction. 1. As to the Stock now in Trade, which they say is 370000 l We must own, so it was 24 Years past, and in like manner the Dutch Stock about 50 or 60 Years past was 600000 l but we say in fact, that our Stock now in Trade (clear of all our Debts, besides our shipping, which also for the most part do belong to and are owned by the Adventurers) is at least 1700000 l God sending in safety our three Coast Ships, and one Bantam Ship, which we daily expect, and our next years Stock from India, which if we would insure, we could do it at 3 or 4 per cent. at most. And tho' we numbly conceive your Lordships would not think it fit to be made Public, at least, to Persons unconcerned; if your Lordships shall think there is any stress to be laid upon this particular of the Turkey Companies paper, we shall be ready at your Lordship's Command to make the Truth of what we have here asserted appear, by a stated Account Verified in such manner as shall be to your Lordship's indubitable Satisfaction. 2. As to the Companies Debt at Interest, it is about 550000 l which the Company have never concealed, nor disowned, nor ever yet denied any Creditor his Debt both Principal and Interest, when ever it was desired, whether due or not: And notwithstanding all the Printed Intimations that have been given to the Creditors, that their Money is in danger, and that they have nothing, but a piece of Paper and Wax for their Payment; And that the Company are, or may be sharing and dividing the Stock among themselves; Yet such is the Companies Credit with the World (whatever the Turkey Merchants think of them) that they cannot persuade their Creditors to take in their Money, nor without Offending Persons (whom they would oblige) refuse sometimes the receiving in of Fresh Money at Interest. 3. As to the rate of Interest, whether a higher or lower Interest be Nationally Disadvantageous or Beneficial, is an ancient Theme which hath been Learnedly and Judiciously bandied in all Ages, and in most part of the Civilised World; and some of us have had the Honour to Argue that Point before your Lordships in the Noble House of Peers, where your Lordships upon the Question (as we remember) did resolve, that the Abatement of Interest, would tend to the increase of Trade and advance the value of the Lands of England. We have now Answered to the three General Propositions in the Turkey Companies Paper; but their whole Paper (as it seems to us) is so blended with other things, and inconsistent with itself, in some Parts, That we must Crave your Lordship's leave to make 2 or 3 Reflections upon the whole, and separate the Concern of Silks from other things wherewith it is Mixed. 1. They seem to find fault with the East-India Company because they are too few Traders, and yet at the same time blame them, for having others than bred Merchants; whereas, if the Company had none but such, their number of Traders must be fewer by about three Fourths. 2. Tho' they complain of the Fewness of the East-India Adventurers as aforesaid, and that other Merchants cannot get in amongst them; In another place of the same Paper, they say, that any man that is master of Money may become a Pmrchaser, of part of the joint-stock, which is true, and it is as true, that without Money, it is as difficult for a man to get a share in the Turkey, or any other Trades. 3. They say, the Company do restrain Trade, by Fines, Seizures, etc. and at the same time blame them for indulging some things to the Adventurers, as Musk, Ambergris, &c which seems to be an incoherent Accusation; for the Company would (if they could) appropriate the whole Trade to the Joint-stock, as the Dutch do: But seeing they are compelled (by the defect of Power and Force of Usage and Custom) to indulge some small things, as Ambergris, Bezoar's, Rubies, Nutmegs, Cloves, etc. they cannot be just without giving that liberty equally, and universally to all Adventurers; as well as to their Factors, and Servants, Commanders, Officers, and Seamen. 4. They complain of the Languishing Condition of the Turkey Trade, and the hindrance the East-India Company causes, of the Woollen Manufactures Exportation to Turkey. Whereas in Fact it will be found, if the Custom-house books be examined, that during the Management of this very Complaint (which hath been of about 10 years' Continuance) the Exportation of Cloth to Turkey hath not declined but increased as yet it will; Notwithstanding the East-India Company should Load all their Ships from India, with Raw, and wrought Silks. That instance mentioned, in the late Printed Treatise, of the loss of returns of Sugar and Cinnamon from Portugal, by the Dutch their taking of Ceilon, and the English vast productions of Sugar from America, is pregnant and irrefragable to this Purpose. In the consideration of Silk, we shall with your Lordship's leave, speak distinctly to the several sorts. Viz. First, Raw Silk. Secondly, Wrought Silks plain. Thirdly, Wrought Silks flowered, or striped. Fourthly, Wrought silks mixed with Gold and Silver. First, As to Raw Silk, we say, it is so Essential a Commodity for the good of this Kingdom, that it may well hold Comparison with our Wool, either Sheep's Wool, or Cotton Wool; which the wisdom of the King and Parliament have so far indulged, as not to lay any kind of Custom on either. Secondly, Since the East-India Companies Importation of great quantities thereof it is manifest, that the Manufacturers thereof have increased as much in number as from one to four. Thirdly, For the Quality of what is brought from India, it is the same, and no otherwise than it is with all other Commodities upon the Face of the Earth, of various Qualities and Conditions, good, bad, and indifferent: The Buyers and the Users, are justly supposed to understand it better than we or the Turkey Merchants, and do set their own price upon it at our Candle, as they find it answer in its use and goodness. Secondly, As to Wrought Silks plain from India. 1. They are notoriously known to be the strongest, and most durable, as well as the Cheapest that comes from any part of the World. 2. They are a Commodity generally exported from England, to other parts. 3. For those of them that are worn and used in England, they do only hinder the Importation of the like quantity from France and Italy, and do not at all prejudice the Silk Manufacture of England, where they are very rarely or never made. Thirdly, As to Wrought Silks Flowered, or Striped; 1. We confess, they do a little impede the growth of the Silk Manufacture in England, but not to that degree in any measure as the Raw Silk, Imported from India doth advance it. 2. We say, it would be unreasonable to forbid the East-India-Companies Trading in them, except they were likewise forbidden to be Imported from any other part of the World. But, 3. If they could be effectually forbidden from all parts; the East-India-Company would be glad to further, as much as in them lies, an Act of Parliament for that purpose; and most earnestly: If an invention could be found out to make such a Law practicable, which is next to impossible, as we find by experience every day, in the French Silks, which are to be seen almost upon every Silkman's stall, as well as on most people's heads or backs, notwithstanding the Act to the contrary. Fourthly, For Wrought Silks mixed with Gold and Silver, they are indeed prejudicial to the Manufacturers of England; the Company do Import none of them. Notwithstanding they are Imported from India, but it is (by the Companies leave) whether we will or no: For if we should not permit them their Importation, they would come in as much as now they do by stealth in our own Ships, as well as by Interlopers: One whereof, Viz. The Prosperous, Captain Crisp, hath vast quantities aboard at this time. If we should Prohibit them so far as in us lies, there would be only this difference in the Case, those kinds of Silks which now come openly, and pay the King Custom, would come in by stealth from all Foreign parts, as well as India, and pay nothing to His Majesty. Notwithstanding which, if a way can be found out by the Wisdom of Parliament, to prevent the Importation, of such kind of Wrought Silks, as aforesaid from all parts of the World, as well as from India, none of His Majesty's Subjects shall more rejoice at the passing of such an Act, than the East-India Adventurers. But if we may presume, by the way, to offer our own Humble and Sincere opinion, we do unfeignedly believe; that no Law that the Wisdom of men can invent, hath, or will so effectually advance the Trade of the Silk Manufacturers in England as the Importation of great quantities of Raw Silk from India, so as to render that Material (Silk) as cheap in England, as it is in any part of Europe where it grows. As to the Accusation of sending Throasters, Weavers and Dyers, the East-India-Company say, the whole Accusation is a mistake, except only as to one or two Dyers, which they have usually sent to the Bay of Bengala, and no other part in India, nor would they have sent any thither, but that they did believe, and think, they are able to prove to your Lordships, that it was for the Nations as well as the Companies advantage, especially as to the plain Black Silks, which they principally intended, and such are generally a Foreign Commodity here, very few or none being made in England. The Conclusion of the Turkey Companies Paper is in effect, that your Lordships should advise His Majesty to Dissolve this present East-India-Company, as by His Majesty's Charter is provided: that is (Your Lordships will pardon the expression) to destroy that which is esteemed by all Foreigners the Glory of the Trade of England, or otherwise to Mutilate it in such manner, as was never practised by any European Nation: and thereby disable the Company from serving his Majesty, their Country or their selves: which is such an Overture, that considering your Lordship's great Wisdom, we cannot but with the rest of the World that are Strangers and Lookerson, admire at the confidence of the Proposers. The East-India Company have Stock enough: If they want more, they are able to increase it at their pleasure; if any other persons desire to come into the Trade, the Company's Doors are always open, they buy Stock at any time, cheaper than its real and intrinsique value, the Company refuses none of the King's Subjects of England, Scotland, or Ireland, nor can keep out any by their Charter, that will pay five pounds for their Admission into their Freedom, which the present Adventurers paid themselves. Purchase is the Natural way of coming into that Stock: Destruction will no more increase the number of their Adventurers than Castration or Cutting off a principal part of their Trade, as is proposed by the Turkey Merchants. HAving Answered every thing we can Observe material in the first Paper, we meet with nothing new in the other Paper, called Reasons against the management of the East-India-Company, as now driven under the present Joint-Stock. But, 1. They say the Company have not valued their Stock at the end of every seven Years, according to the Preamble; Which is an Error in Fact. For whereas they allege that the East-India-Company have not kept to their proposals in their first Preamble, that does not Concern them. But therein they are likewise mistaken, for that which they call a Preamble is but an Act of the General Court, although after subscribed by all or most of the Adventurers, of which there are two only which have been made by this Company, and alterable at pleasure. The first did provide, for a Valuation at the end of seven Years, which was accordingly made; and on a very long debate in a General Court, held at the East-India-House, the 13th. of October, 1664. It was then determined, that every Adventurer should within twenty days declare, whether he would go off upon the intended Valuation or not: And that it was understood, that those, that did not declare in that time, continued their Stocks to all intents and purposes; which the said General Court did think highly reasonable, in regard that otherwise if the value of the Stock should prove to come out above the selling rate (which was then but seventy per Cent.) All the Adventurers should withdraw their Stocks, and consequently dissolve the Company. The General Court was very numerous that time, and that Reason (among others) was so prevalent, that upon the question there was but one Negative: After the valuation was made, which was one hundred thirty per Cent. Thirty days time was given for any Persons to subscribe a new, and they had full Liberty to peruse the Valuation: But no new subscribers did come in, notwithstanding it appeared soon after, that the Stock was considerably undervalved and within a Year and a quarter following, there was fifty per Cent. divided. At another General Court Holden at the East-India-House, the 16th. of March, 1664. The second Preamble was made, and afterwards subscribed by all the Adventurers, whereby the first Preamble was declared, determined and void: And in this Case to avoid the danger of dissolving the stock aforementioned it was declared in the 4th. Article of the said Preamble, that unless the generality at some General Court, shall otherwise direct, a valuation of all remains of Stock undivided, be once in seven years or sooner, made by the Court of Committees between the first of May and the last of August, That thereby the Adventurers might see how the Stock stands, the better to sell or buy, as to them shall be thought good; which hath been accordingly performed. Both which preambles, as they did only concern the Adventurers by whom they were made, and was never complained of to our Knowledge by any Adventurer: So with submission we humbly conceive, they do no more concern our opposers than what we do in our private Families, we being under no obligation either by Charter or Promise, to do, or not to do any Act, at the pleasure of Persons unconcerned in the Stock. 2. The other Novel we observe in the said Paper, is that the New Stock they propose, it's duration should be limited to a short time, and the subscriptions to a certain sum not to be exceeded; which are two such absurdities in the Polity of Trade, couched in two Lines, as were never heard of in any Trading Nation, in all the Debates and Foundations that ever were laid for the Establishment of an East-India Company, or Trade in any of the Printed Books and Discourses that have been in the European Nations, on that Subject. It being as Rational to make a Law that whoever plants an Orchard, shall plant it but for a short time of Continuance, as to say that the Company, which cannot possibly arrive at its full growth in less than two or three Ages, shall be in its Constitution, Framed, and Limited to a short continuance. And for the limited sum they speak of; that is no less detrimental to the Kingdom in General, by their own Maxims (so far as they do agree) as well as to the King's Revenue: For certainly the greater the Trade and Navigation, the more it is for Public Advantage. Who the Traders be is a Personal Consideration, and signifies nothing to the Universality. We have now answered all the Objections that we can find worth the troubling your Lordships with, in any of the aforesaid Papers: And to right ourselves we should proceed, to enumerate to your Lordships the great and manifold Advantages which have accrued, and do accrue, to this Nation by the Envied Progress and Increase of the English East-India Companies Trade: But those are so many and so great, with Respect to his Majesty and the Kingdom's Power, as well as profit that if we should enter upon them they might swell this Paper into a Volume, and prove a Burden to your Lordships, which therefore we shall forbear, praying your Lordships, for further satisfaction therein, to be referred to the printed Treatises that have been made public on this Occasion. But there is another thing which, with humble Submission, we think it our duty to acquaint your Lordships with, viz. the strange presumption of the Interlopers, these last 2 or 3 years, Of which two are already arrived, and one great Ship more is also expected home this year: And if an effectual Course cannot be taken to suppress that Inter-Loping Trade, it will be impossible to Frame a new or support the old Company, who being at above one hundred Thousand Pounds Annual Charge in Forts, Castle's, Soldier, and otherwise, cannot be supposed to hold up in Trade, with those that contribute nothing to that Charge; especially considering that Interlopers will save (as they call it) a great deal of the Custom on fine goods of small Bulk, whereas the Company upon Honour and Duty to his Majesty, do always pay the full Customs to a penny, and produce their true and original Invoices to the King's Officers at any time. We had almost forgot the Allegation of the Turkey Merchants, that their Members are 500, which if some Merchants of their own Company are not mistaken, is an Error in their Muster of at least one half. And for the bringing up of Noblemen and Gentleman's Sons as Apprentices, it is true, that many such they do breed up, and so do likewise the East-India Company; with only two differences, 1. The Turkey Merchants take 5 and 600 l with an Apprentice, the East-India Company, nothing. 2. The Turkey Merchants Servants, such as do well of them, come home with good indifferent Estates; those that do well of the East-India Company's, with great ones. All that can be said is; that an old Tree, that hath taken hold of the Ground, and drawn strong Roots, may stand and abide more Shocks, Storms, Blasts, and Rubs, than a young Tree that is newly Planted. We hope that by this our Submissive Reply to all that hath been said against us, we shall have satisfied your Lordships of the Groundlesness of every Complaint. And if your Lordships shall so think fit, we humbly crave your Lordships Leave, for the Satisfaction of Persons misled, who otherwise may mean well, we may be permitted to Print the two Papers delivered us, with this our Answer. 22 August, 1681. All which we Humbly Submit to your Lordship's Grave Judgement and Considerations. FINIS.