A CONFERENCE WITH Mr. CLAUDE MINISTER OF CHARENTON, CONCERNING The Authority of the CHURCH. By JAMES BENIGN BOSSUET, Bishop of Meaux, Councillor to the most Christian King, and formerly Preceptor to the DAUPHIN: First Almoner to the DAUPHINESS. Faithfully done into English out of the French Original. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed for Matthew Turner at the Lamb in High-Holbourn, 1687. ADVERTISEMENT. I Had no intent to publish either this Conference▪ or the Instructions, it was accompanied with. They both had for their Object the Conversion of a particular person, and having wrought their Effect, there was no obligation to make any farther noise about 'em. But as I was not 〈◊〉 to publish the Recital of it, so neither did I affectedly strive to keep concealed. I gave a Copy to M●demoiselle de Duras, who requested it 〈…〉 but just 〈◊〉 I consented without difficulty to the communicating it to some Gentle●●● of the Pretended Reformed Religion, that desired to see it: because 'twas thought, it might be instrumental to their Conversion. The same Motive 〈…〉 to impart it to some other of these Gentlemen, either by myself, or by the Interposition of Friends. Thus it passed into several hand● 〈…〉 Copies taken, than I knew of 〈◊〉 they were spread 〈◊〉 they were altered: 〈…〉 the Relation, I had made, or turned it according to their 〈…〉 'twas printed at Tholoze from a very corrupt 〈…〉 I can no longer forbear giving it to you, as I had myself set it down with great Fidelity and Exactness. At my coming forth from the Conference, I related it entirely to the Duke and Duchess of Rich●lieu in the presence of the 〈◊〉 T●stu. The particular zeal, they had for the Convers●●● of Mademoiselle de Duras, made them desire me so to do● I had before 〈…〉 to them the precedent Conversations. The next day. I made the same Recital to some of my particular Friends, amongst whom was the Bishop of Mir●poix. I was full of the matter, and related it naturally. All those Gentlemen 〈◊〉 me to put it in writing, whilst 'twas fresh in my memory, alleging several Reasons, to persuade me, that this Labour would not ●e 〈◊〉. I believ●● it 〈…〉. I was 〈◊〉 to write with the same swiftness, which is usual, when one 〈◊〉 d●w● facts, that are present, without troubling one's self about the Style: and these Gentlemen observed in the written Narrative the same simplicity, they, had discerned in my recounting it by Word of Mouth. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged my Report to be exactly true, and I hope, those, that shall read it without 〈◊〉, will have the same Opinion of it. Several Copies of my Relation being dispersed, as I have told you, one 〈◊〉 into the hands of Mr. Claude, as himself av●rs; and he on his side together with an Answer to the Instructions, I had particularly given Mademoiselle de Duras, gave abroad a Relation of the Conference, very different from this of mine. To speak freely, what I think, his Relation is neither for his Credit, nor min●: We hold in it round about long Discourses, languishing, insipid, and inconsequent enough. 〈◊〉 Mr. Claude's Relation we often return back, to what we had left, without perceiving how we get 〈◊〉 again: We did not act in that mann●r, and our Dispute was consequential and close enough. In this sort of Contests men naturally grow hot, as in a kind of wrestling: and so the sequel is more animated, than the Beginnings. Men try one another, and if I so speak, in the first Blows, that are given: when they have a little explained themselves, when they think, they have discovered, where each Party places the Difficulty, and found, as I may say, one another's weak sides, all, that follows, is more lively and pressing. Whether all this be as natural in Mr. Claude's Discourse, as in mine, the Reader shall be Judge. As his is turned, many will scarce believe, but that it has been adjusted and trimmed up on the perusal of mine. But I will not stay upon these Reflections. 'Tis with Discourses, as with Pictures, in which every one cannot discern, what is Original, and, as I may say, from the first hand. Nor will I here make use of the odious Reproach of Insincerity. One does not always, so exactly remember either the things, that were said, or the Order, in which they were delivered: We often confound in our Minds our After-thoughts, with what we indeed said in the Dispute; and one is frequently found to have changed the Truth without any Design of lying. What I shall say of Mr. Claude, the same he may say of me. Our Conversation was in private, and neither of us can produce indifferent Witnesses: thus every one will judge of the Truth of our Recitals, according as himself is prepossessed. I pretend not to draw any Advantage from the Success of the Conference, which was followed by the Conversion of Mademoiselle de Duras: 'tis a Work of Gods', for which we ought to give him thanks: 'tis an Example for those, that are well disposed, but not an Argument for the Obstinate. The Catholics will look on this Change in one manner, and the Pretended Reformed in another. So that, should Mr. Claude and I set ourselves, each of us to justify his Relation, the Result would be only a Dispute, with which the Public has nothing to do. And what great matter is it, will the Reader say, which the two had the better? The Cause resides not in these two men, who would appear extremely vain, and so of little Credit, if they would have every one, whether Friends or Adversaries, believe them equally 〈◊〉 their Word. In these Altercations the best Course, a prudent Reader can take, is to search into the Bottom of the Matters, and without regarding the personal Facts, to consider the Doctrine, laid down by each Party. The Subject, treated of in all this Relation, is no less clear, than important. 'Tis the Authority of the Church. Our Adversaries make little account of this Dispute, being always heard to say, that we must come to the Bottom, setting aside as an unnecessary Formality, all the Arguments drawn from the Authority of the Church: as if it were not an essential Part of the Bottom to examine, by what Authority and what Means JESUS CHRIST would have Christians resolve themselves on the Disputes, that should spring up in his Church. Catholics pretend, that this Means is to hear the Church itself. They pretend, that a particular Member ought not to resolve but with the whole Body, and that be hazards all, when he resolves any other way. They pretend, that to know, in what Church we ought to stay, we need only know, which it is, that was never accused of being formed by separating itself; that was extant before all Separations; from which all others have separated. Without going forth of our House, our very Parents will show us this Church. Deut. xxxii. v. 7. Ask thy Father, and he will show thee, thy Elders, and they will tell thee. According to this Rule whoever can show a whole Church, a whole Society of Pastors, the Beginning of its Being, and a Time, whensoever, during which it was not, has convinced it of not being a Church truly Christian. This is our Pretention, and we pretend not, that this Question is about a simple Formality. We aver, that it concerns a fundamental Article, contained in these words of the Creed, I believe the holy Catholic Church: an Article besides of such importance, that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest. But as this Point is decisive, so it is no less clear, and it cannot be long spoken of, but one side or other will show their weakness. Let us say better: when a Catholic, never so little instructed, undertakes a Protestant upon this Point, this Protestant, how able and subtle soever, will find himself reduced, not always indeed to hold his Peace; but, what is no less strong than Silence, to say nothing, when he shall attempt to speak, but visible Absurdities. This is, what here befell Mr. Claude through the sole Defect of his Cause: for 'twill appear, that he defended it with all possible Skill, and so subtly, that I feared for those who heard him: for I know, what St. Paul writes of such Discourses. But in fine we must boldly say: The Truth gained a manifest Victory. What Mr. Claude avows, ruins his Cause: The Places, where he stood without an Answer, are indeed such, as suffer none. And to the end it may not be said, I assert, what I please: or that I now desire, what I ere while disclaimed, to be believed on my own word: two things will show, whatever Opinion may be had of me, that in this Point I must necessarily he believed. The first is, that relying on the force of Truth, and his Promise, who said, Luk. xxi. v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom, which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist, wherever Mr. Claude shall say, that he has not acknowledged, what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference, I engage myself in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgement; and wherever he shall say, that he was not without an Answer, I will force him without any other Argument, but those, he has already heard, to Answers so visibly absurd, that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge, he had far better have been silent, than have made use of them. And for fear it should be said; for in an Affair, that concerns the Conversion of Souls, we must, as much as may be, prevent all Objection: for fear then once again it should be said, that Mr. Claude engaged himself in these Inconveniences by ill management, I on the contrary affirm, that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause, that there is no Minister, no Doctor, no man living, but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments. Those, who will make trial of it shall see, that this is no vain Promise. If any one says, I presume too much on my strength; now that I examine myself in the presence of GOD, if such a Presumption had made me speak, I should disown all, I had said. Instead of promising myself any Advantage, I should esteem myself already vanquished by trusting only to my own Arm, and my own Weapons: and so far should I be from defying the strong, as David that, I should rank myself among those, Ps. 63. of whom the same David sings, that the Arrows of Children have pierced them, and their own Tongue, too weak to defend them, is in fine turned against themselves. The Instruction, I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed, I particularly offer those of the Diocese of Meaux, whom I am above all the rest obliged to bear in my Bowels. Those, that shall refuse this Christian Instruction, no less peaceable, fraternal and paternal, than concluding and decisive, I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning, there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren, Acts. xx. v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all. This is the first thing, which will show, that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude, which might give me any Advantage. The second is, that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me, and amongst all the Turns, he gives our Dispute, still acknowledges at last, what was in contest between us, or else shifts it off in such a manner, as plainly shows, he cannot entirely disown it. But this will be better understood by those, who, after the Instructions and the Conference, shall read the Reflections, I make on Mr. Claudes writing. Some Attention is requisite, to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions: for whatever Easiness it has pleased GOD to let us find in a matter, in which he shows the most ignorant, as well as the most learned, the plain way of Salvation, yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention, he is capable of; and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition, the reading of these two Articles, which will take up but half a quarter of an hour, will facilitate the Understanding of all this Work, though I moreover hope, that it is of itself sufficiently intelligible. Besides, the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholics, who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy. Grounded on the Faith of the Church, they are too careless in perusing such Works, by which their Faith might be confirmed, and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring. This was not the Use in the first Ages of the Church: the Treatises of Controversy, written by the Fathers, were sought after by all the Faithful, Conversation being one of the Means, proposed to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of unbelievers, every one endeavoured to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading. The Truth insinuated itself by so sweet a Means; and Conversation won those, whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse. But to the end the Works, we make of Controversy, may be read, as those of the Fathers were, let us endeavour, as the Fathers did, to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine, but also with Piety and Charity; and let us, as much as we can, correct the Dryness, not to say the Sourness, which is too often found in such Books. A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES. CONFERENCE. I. THE Preparation to the Conference, and particular Instruction. p. 1 II. The Conference. p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference. p. 49 REFLECTIONS. THE first Reflection, on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reform. p. 58 Second Reflection, on one of the Propositions, acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference, and on the Examen, he prescribes after the Church's Judgement. p. 64 Third Reflection, on another Proposition, acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference: an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians, and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture. p. 73 Fourth Reflection, on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church, as we do to him about the Scripture. p. 76 Fifth Reflection, on Mr. Claude's alleging here the Practice of the Greek Church, and the like: which is only to embroil the matter, and not to resolve the Difficulty. p. 78 Sixth Reflection, on Mr. Claude's reducing, as much as he can, this Dispute to the Instruction of Children. p. 82 Seventh Reflection, on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation, that I appeared embarrassed in this part of the Dispute. p. 86 Eighth Reflection, on another Proposition, acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference, where is shown the manner, how all false Churches have been established. p. 88 Ninth Reflection, on the Church's Visibility: that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrine, I have explained, till he has first framed himself a false Idea of it. p. 91 Tenth Reflection, on the Pretended Reformeds' Confession of Faith; that it acknowledges no Church, but what is visible, and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty. p. 95 Eleventh Reflection, on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgement of the Churches perpetual Visibility: the surprising Doctrine of this Minister. p. 99 Twelfth Reflection. Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections, resolved by his Doctrine. p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflection. Mr. Claude's Doctrine shows the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion, that there is no Salvation for them, but in the Roman Church. p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH Mr. CLAUDE Minister of CHARENTON, Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH. MADEMOISELLE de DURAS, I. The Preparation to the Conference, and particular Instruction. being in some Doubt about her Religion, caused me to be asked by several Persons of Quality; Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence. I answered, I should very readily do it, if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation. She afterwards, by the Duke of Richelieu, invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister, on the Subject she would speak to me about. This was to intimate to me, that she was willing to see me before the Conference. Being with her on the Day appointed, she acquainted me, That the Point, she desired to have cleared with her Minister, was that of the Church's Authority, which seemed to her to include the whole Controversy. She appeared to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference, so that I judged it absolutely necessary. I told her, she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article, which in effect comprehe●●ded the Decision of all the rest, as she herself had well observed; and endeavoured to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article. 'Tis a thing, said I to her, ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag, That they cannot be denied to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith. They say, that we believe all they believe; but that they believe not all we believe. Their Meaning by this is, That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith, and rejected only what we have added to them. They draw thence a great Advantage, and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable. Mademoiselle de Duras remembered very well, she had often heard them use such Discourses. I will make, proceeded I, but one Remark upon this; which is, that, instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith, we show, that there is one Article of the Creed, they believe not, which is that of the Universal Church. 'Tis true, they say with the Mouth, I believe the Catholic or Universal Church, as the Arians, Macedonians, and Socinians say with the Mouth, I believe in JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost. But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles, because they believe them not, as they ought, nor according to their true Sense: so if we show the Pretended Reformed, that they believe not, as they ought, the Article of the Catholic Church, we may truly say, that in effect they reject so important ●an Article of the Creed. Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition, and told me, she remembered, that she had seen something in it, like to what I now said: but I answered, my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly, and that 'twas fit she should now see them a little more at large. You must know then, said I to her, what is meant by this Expression, The Catholic or Universal Church; and upon this I began to lay for my Ground, that in the Creed, which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith, this Term must be taken in its most proper, and most natural Signification, and such, as is most used amongst Christians. Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society, making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST, and govern itself by his Word. If this Society makes this Profession, 'tis consequently visible. That this was the proper, and genuine Signification of the Word Church, such as was known by every one, and used in common Discourse, I desired no other Witnesses, than the Pretended Reformed themselves. When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers, of the Church's Discipline, of the Church's Faith, of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church, they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate, nor their Discipline, nor their Faith; but the Prayers, Faith, and Discipline of all the Faithful, assembled in the exterior Society of Gods' People. When they say, That a Man edifies the Church, or that he scandalises the Church; that they receive one into the Church, or exclude one out of the Church, all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of Gods' People. Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism, when they say, that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church; and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrine received by GOD's People, as it is, say they, summarily comprised in the Confession of Faith, which we all have: And again, when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers, to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves: And yet more expressly in the Confession of Faith, Article XXV. when they say, That the Order of the Church, which was established by JESUS CHRIST, must be sacred; and therefore that the Church cannot subsist, if there be not in it Pastors, who may have the charge to Teach: And in Article XXVI. That none ought to dr●● aside, but that all together aught to keep and maintain the Unity of the Church, submitting to the common Instruction: And in fine, in Article XXVII. That we must carefully discern, which is the true Church; and that it is the Company of the Faithful, which agree to follow Gods' Word, and the pure Religion, that depends on it. Whence they conclude Article XXVIII. That where Gods' Word is not received, nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it, and where there is no use of the Sacraments, one cannot, to speak properly, judge, that there is a Church. 'Tis evident by all these Passages, and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed, that the proper, natural, and generally used Signification of the Word Church, is to take it for the exterior Society of Gods' People, amongst whom though there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates; their Malice, say they, cannot efface the Title of the Church, Article XXVII. That is, The Hypocrites, mixed in the Exterior Society of Gods' People, cannot take from it the Title of the true Church, provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks, the making Profession of Gods' Word, and the Use of the Sacraments, as is said in Article XXVIII. This is the Acceptation of the Word Church, when we speak simply, naturally, and properly, without Contention or Dispute; and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word, we have reason to say, that 'twas in this Sense, the Apostles made use of it in their Creed, where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner, as being to enclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith. In effect, this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of Gods' People. When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate, 'tis so expressed, and they say the Church of the Predestinate. When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, Heb. xii. v. 23. which are written in Heaven, 'tis expressly named, as we see in St. Paul. He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification, for the City of the Living GOD, the Heavenly Jerusalem, where is an innumerable company of Angels, and Spirits of just Men made perfect; that is, for Heaven, where the holy Souls are gathered together. Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church; that is, the Church of the Firstborn, who have preceded their Brethren in Glory. But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing, the common Practice of all Christians, not excepting the pretended Reform themselves, takes it for to signify the Assembly, the Society, the Communion of those, that confess the true Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST. And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians, but from the Holy Scripture? where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense; so that this cannot be denied to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word. The word Ecclesia (which we render Church) originally signifies an Assembly, and was principally attributed to the Assemblies, heretofore held by the People for the discussing of public Affairs. And this word is used in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts, when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul: Act. XIX. v. 32. v. 39 v. 40. the Assembly (Ecclesia) was confused. And again: If ye inquire any thing concerning other Matters, it shall be determined in a lawful Assembly (Ecclesia.) And in fine. When he had thus spoken, he dismissed the Assembly (Ecclesiam.) This was the use of the word Ecclesia (Church) amongst the Greeks, and in Gentilism. The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly, the Society, the Community of Gods' People, which makes Profession to serve him. There is none, but knows that famous Version of the Seventy, who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST. Of above fifty Passages, where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation, there is not any one, in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly, and very few, in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of Gods' People. In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it, when he says, that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness, Acts VII. v. 38. with the Angel which spoke to him, calling by this name Church, according to the Usage received amongst the Jews, the visible Society of Gods' People. The Christians took this word from the Jews, and kept it in the same Sense, using it to signify the Assembly of those, that confessed JESUS CHRIST, and made Profession of his Doctrine. This is, what is simply called the Church, or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST: And of above an hundred Passages, where this word is made use of in the New Testament, there are scarce two or three, where this Signification is contested by the Ministers; and even in the Places, where they contest it, 'tis manifest, they do it without reason. For Example, they will not have this place of St. Paul, where he says, Eph. V v. 27. that JESUS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church, not having Spot, or Wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it is holy, and without Blemish: This Place, I say, they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church, nor yet of the Church on Earth, because the Church, so considered, is so far from being without Blemish, that it stands in daily need of this Prayer, Forgive us our Sins. And I say on the contrary, that to affirm, this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church, is manifestly to contradict the Apostle. For see, v. 25, 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks: 'Tis of that, which JESUS CHRIST loved, and gave himself for it: that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water, by the Word. This Church, washed in Water, and purified by Baptism; this Church, sanctified by the word of Life, whether by that of Preaching, or by that, which is made use of in the Sacraments, this Church is without doubt the visible Church. The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it, GOD forbidden: They are the most noble part of it; but they are comprised in this whole. They are there instructed by the Word, they are there purified by Baptism; and often also some of the Reprobate are employed in these Ministeries. They must then be considered in this Passage, not as making a Body apart; but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society. 'Tis this Society, which the Apostle calls the Church. JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it: for he has given it Baptism; he has shed his Blood to assemble it; there is not any one either called, justified, or baptised in this Church, who is not called, justified, and baptised in the Name, and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST. This Church is glorious, because she glorifies GOD, because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel and Cross. This Church is Holy, because she always, constantly, and without varying, teaches the holy Doctrine, which continually brings forth Saints in her Unity. This Church has neither Spot nor Wrinkle, because she has neither any Error, nor any evil Maxim; and moreover because she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD, who, though Sinners on Earth, find in her Communion exterior Means to purify themselves, so that they shall one day come in a most perfect Estate before JESUS CHRIST. This perhaps is the only Place, in which it may with some show of Probability be said, That the word Church, taken simply, signifies something else than the exterior Society of Gods' People; and yet you see, how clear it is, that it ought to be understood as all the others. But should this Passage, and two or three more, have a Signification either Doubtful, or even different from this, yet are all the other conformable to it. For what is there more frequent, than such Expressions as these, That the Church must be edified, that the Church has been persecuted, that GOD is praised in the midst of the Church, that she is saluted, that she is visited, that there are Pastors and Bishops established to govern her, and other like, the number of which is infinite? It cannot then be denied, that this is the ordinary Signification of the word Church, and consequently that, which is to be followed in so plain a Confession of Faith, as is the Apostles Creed. In this Sense was it taken by a whole great Council, Conc. Ni●. post Symb. the first and holiest of all the Universal Councils, when condemning Arius, it pronounced in this manner: The holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes all those, who say, That the Son of GOD was drawn out of nothing. 'Tis JESUS CHRIST himself, who taught us to believe the Church in this Sense. For to found this Church, he came forth from the invisible Bosom of his Father, and rendered himself visible to Men; he assembled about him a Society of Men, that acknowledged him for their Master: This is, what he called his Church. To this Primitive Church the Faithful, who afterwards believed, congregated themselves, and thence sprung the Church, which the Creed terms Catholic or Universal. JESUS CHRIST used the word Church to signify this visible Society, when he said himself, that we must hear the Church. Mat. xviii. v. 17. Tell it unto the Church: And again when he said: Thou art Peter, Mat. xuj. v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church: and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Why, said I, Madam, why will not they of your Religion understand here by the word Church, the Society of those that make Profession to believe in JESUS CHRIST and the Gospel, since it is certain, that this Society is in effect the true Church, against which Hell could never prevail, neither when it made use of Tyrants to persecute her, nor when it set false Doctors on work to corrupt her? Hell shall not prevail against the Predestinate; 'tis certain: For if it cannot prevail against this exterior Society, with much greater Reason shall it not prevail against the Elect of GOD, who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church. But by the same Reason, that it cannot prevail against the Elect, it cannot prevail against the Church, which teaches them, in which they confess the Gospel, and receive the Sacraments. 'Tis this exterior Society, in which the Elect serve GOD, that we ought to understand by the word Church, and at the same time admire the invincible Force of JESUS CHRIST's Promises, who has so supported the Society of his People, though weak in comparison of the Infidels, which environed it without; though torn by Heretics, who divided it within, that there has not been so much as one sole Moment, in which this Church has not been seen by the whole Earth. But the Pretended Reformed have not dared to retain this natural Sense of the Gospel. For, that they might establish themselves, they have been forced to say in their Confession of Faith, Article XXXI. That the State of the Church was interrupted, and that they were fain to raise it up again anew, because it was in Ruin and Desolation. In effect, when their Church was set up, it entered not into Communion with any other Church, then extant on the Earth; but was formed by breaking with all the Christian Churches, which were in the World. They have not then the Consolation, which the Catholics have to see JESUS CHRIST's Promise visibly accomplished, and maintained, during so many Ages. They cannot show a Church, which has ever been, since JESUS CHRIST came to build it on the Rock; and to save his Word, they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate, which neither themselves, nor any else can show. But JESUS CHRIST would show something illustrious and clear, when he said, that his Church, maugre the Opposition of Hell, should be always invincible: he would, I say, show something clear and resplendent, which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable Assurance of the immutable Certainty of his Promises. And in effect, let us consider, when he spoke this Word: Thou art Peter, Mat. xuj. v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. 'Twas, when having asked his Apostles, Whom say ye, that I am? Peter in the Name of them all answered him, Thou art CHRIST the Son of the living GOD. Upon this illustrious Confession of Faith, which Flesh and Blood had not dictated, but the Heavenly Father had revealed to Peter; upon this illustrious Confession of Faith, I say, is founded both St. Peter's Dignity, and the Churches immovable Firmness. This Church, which confesses JESUS CHRIST to be the true Son of GOD, is that, against which Hell shall never prevail, and which shall subsist without Interruption, maugre all the Efforts and Artifices of the Devil. It appears then clearly, that the Church, of which JESUS CHRIST speaks in this place, is a confessing Church, a Church, that publishes the Faith, and consequently an exterior and visible Church. See also what he adds: And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: Ibid. v. 19 And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven: And whatsoever thou shalt lose on Earth, shall be loosed in Heaven. Whatever is to be understood by these Words, whether Preaching, Ecclesiastical Censures, or the Ministry of Priests in the Sacrament of Penance, as Catholics understand them, 'tis still certain, That here is an exterior Ministry given to this Church: 'Tis then this Church, which confesses the Faith, and confesses it principally by the Mouth of St. Peter: 'Tis this Church, that uses the Ministry of the Keys: 'Tis she, that shall always be on the Earth, without Hells ever being able to prevail against her. And because JESUS CHRIST would have her always visibly subsist, he has clothed her with sensible Marks, which are always to continue. For see, how he sends his Apostles, and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven: Go ye therefore and teach all Nations, Matt. xxviii. v. 19, 20. baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the World: Teaching with you, baptising with you, instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded, consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministry: 'Tis with you; 'Tis with those, who shall succeed you; 'Tis with the Society, assembled under their Conduct, that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World; always; without Interruption: For there shall not be any one Moment, in which I will leave you, but though absent in Body, I will be always present by my Holy Spirit. In Consequence of this Word, St. Paul also tells us, that the Ecclesiastical Ministry shall last without any Discontinuance, till the general Resurrection. He that descended, is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens, Eph. iv. v. 10, 11, 12, 13. that he might fill all things. And he gave some, Apostles: and some, Prophets: and some, Evangelists: and some, Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the Saints, for the Work of the Ministry, for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST: Till we all come in the Unity of the Faith, and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD, unto a perfect Man, unto the measure of the Stature of the fullness of CHRIST; That is to say, till we have attained the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST, glorified in Body and Soul: This is the Term, which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministry. The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that, which is called JESUS CHRISTs Body: Which is then that Body, where GOD has established some Apostles: some Prophets: and some Pastors and Teachers? Which is that Body, where GOD has placed several Members, and different Graces, Rom. xii. v. 4, etc. The Grace of Ministry, the Grace of Teaching, the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation, the Grace of Ruling? Which, I say, is that Body, if it be not the visible Church? But that, which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge, that the Body of JESUS CHRIST, so much recommended in the Scripture, can be the visible Church, is their being constrained to say, that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth; and they have an Horror to say, that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always, for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death. 'Tis then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People; 'tis this Church composed of so many divers Members, by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercised; 'tis this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body; 'twas to this Body, assembled under the Ministry of Pastors, that he said at his ascending into Heaven; Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the World. He then, that descended, is the same that ascended, to the end he might fill all things, Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence, Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance, both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word. And, 'twas for to continue (at his ascent into Heaven) this Assistance, promised to his Church, that he placed some Apostles, some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers: A thing, which must last till such time, as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplished, till we are all perfect Men, and till the whole Body of the Church be arrived at the Fullness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST. Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth. The Church, founded on the Confession of the Faith, shall always be, and always confess the Faith: Her Ministry shall be eternal: She shall bind and lose even to the end of the World, Hell never being able to hinder her: she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations: The Sacraments, that is, the exterior Liveries, with which she is clad, shall last for ever. Teach and baptise the Nations, 1. Cor. xi. v. 26. and I shall be always with you. As often as ye eat this Bread, and drink this Cup, ye do show the Lords Death till he come. With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith, the Ecclesiastical Ministry, and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST, and of the Faithful amongst themselves, till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes. The duration of the Church, and of the Ecclesiastical Ministry has no other Limits. 'Tis not then only the Society of the Predestinate, that shall subsist for ever; 'tis the visible Body, in which the Predestinate are included, which preaches to them, which teaches them, which regenerates them by Baptism, which nourishes them by the Eucharist, which administers to them the Keys, which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline, which forms JESUS CHRIST in them: 'Tis this visible Body, that shall subsist for ever. And 'tis for this reason, that in the Apostles Creed, where the Grounds of the Faith are proposed to our Belief, we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost, and to believe the Holy Catholic Church, and the Communion of Saints: The interior Communion by Charity, and in the Holy Ghost, who animates us, I acknowledge it; but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments, in the Confession of Faith, and in all the exterior Ministry of the Church. And all, that we have now said, is included in this Word, I believe the Universal Church. We believe her at all times; she is then always: We believe her at all times; she always then teaches the Truth. Your Ministers will have us believe, that 'tis one thing to believe the Church, that is, to believe, that she is; and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church, that is, to believe all her Decisions. But this is a frivolous Distinction. He, who believes, that the Church always is, believes, that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth. 'Tis to this Church, which confesses the Truth, that JESUS CHRIST has promised, Hell shall not prevail against her. The Truth than shall never fail to be confessed in her; and consequently in believing, that she is, we are assured, that she is always credible. In effect, the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church: For then the Arians, the Pelagians, the Donatists, the Anabaptists, and the Socinians would be of the Church. They are not however: GOD forbidden, that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church! The Church must not then only keep some Truth: She must keep and teach all Truth; else she is not the Church. Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others. For all, that GOD has revealed, must be retained. He has revealed nothing to us, that is not very important for our Salvation. Isai. xlviii. v. 17. I am the Lord, which teacheth thee profitable things. In the Faith then, which the Church teaches, must be found the fullness of the Truths, revealed by GOD: Otherwise she is no longer the Church, that JESUS CHRIST founded. That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles, I easily confess; but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has revealed: And therefore the Faithful, who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular, confess them nevertheless all in general, when they say: I believe the Universal Church. This, said I, is the Church, which your Ministers know not. They teach you, that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth; they teach you, that she may err in her Decisions; they teach you, that to believe this Church, is to believe Men: But 'tis not in this manner, that the Church is proposed to us in the Creed. 'Tis there proposed to us to believe her, as we believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost; and therefore the Faith of the Church is joined with the Faith of the three Divine Persons. These things having been said at several times, but almost in this Order, I added, that our Doctrine on this Point was so true, that the Pretended Reformed, who denied it, could not wholly reject it: That is, their Synods acted in such a manner, as showed, that they required (as well as we) an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church. Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion, which I have taken notice of in the Exposition, Article XX. She had read them there; but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline. The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter, Title of Consistories, Article XXXI. Where 'tis said, That Disputes about Doctrine should be determined by Gods' Word, if it might be in the Consistory; if not, the matter should be brought before the Colloquy, thence to the Provincial Synod, and in fine to the National, where the full and final Resolution should be made by Gods' Word, to which if any one refused to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors, he should be cut off from the Church. 'Tis not then, said I, to Gods' Word alone precisely, as such, that the full and final Resolution belongs, since after it is proposed, an Appeal is permitted; but to Gods' Word, in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgement. The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré, related in the Book of the Discipline. It contains the Letter of Mission, which all the Churches make, when they send Deputies to the National Synod: See the Terms of it. We promise before GOD to submit ourselves, to whatsoever shall be resolved in your Holy Assembly, being persuaded, that GOD will preside in it, and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity, through the Rule of his Word. This Persuasion, said I, if it be grounded only on an human Presumption, cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath, by which they swear to submit to a Resolution, they do not yet know: It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise, That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgement of the Church; and Catholics say no more. The third Act, which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline, is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying, That every Church ought to govern itself without dependence on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters. This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declared as prejudicial to the State, as to the Church. 'Twas there judged, That it opened the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances, took away all Remedies, and made way for the forming as many Religions, as Parishes. But, said I, whatever Synods are held, if we do not believe ourselves obliged to submit our Judgements to them, we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents, and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions, I do not say as there are Parishes, but as there are Heads. We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgement to what the Catholic Church teaches. These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline, printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes', Entitled Acts Autentiques, printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'Tis a Resolution of the National Synod of saint Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly, where was to be treated a Reunion with the Lutherans, by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith. Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrine and others, that should be brought into Deliberation, and to consent to this Confession of Faith, even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches, if the Time permitted not to do it. From this Act I concluded two things: One, That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons, a thing far more extraordinary, than to see particulars submit to the whole Church: The other, That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assured of her Confession of Faith, since she consents to the changing it, and that in Points so important, as are those, that make the Dispute with the Lutherans, one of which is the Reality. If the Pretended Reformed hoped, that the Lutherans would return to them, there was no need of a new Confession of Faith. What was then intended, was, That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments, there should be framed a Confession of Faith, in which both Parties might agree; which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith, which they give us, as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me, that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections, which are the same with these I now made, she knew not what to answer to 'em; and that therefore she desired to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make, as well upon these Acts, as upon the other Difficulties, that regarded the Authority of the Church. I told her, That though those of her Religion acted, as holding the Church's Authority infallible and indisputable; yet 'twas true, That they denied this Infallibility: and I added, That 'twas a constant Maxim in her Religion, That every private Person, how ignorant soever, was obliged to believe, That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils, and all the rest of the Church together. She seemed astonished at this Proposition. But I added, That there was yet believed in her Religion something far more strange; which was, That there is a Point of Time, when a Christian is obliged to doubt, whether the Scripture was inspired by GOD; whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable; whether JESUS CHRIST was a Deceiver, or a Teacher of the Truth. When she appeared yet more amazed at this Proposition, I assured her, that both this and the other, I just before mentioned, were necessary Consequences of the Doctrine, received in their Religion, concerning the Church's Authority; and that I doubted not, but I could force Mr. Claude to own 'em. I declared to her the Reasons of my Assertion, and showed her at the same time what a Mark of Falsity 'twas amongst them, to see, how on one side they denied, that we must believe without examining, what the Church decided; and that on the other they were fain, for the establishing of Order, to attribute to the Church the Authority, they had denied her. She let me know, that she understood this Discourse; and that she remembered, she had read it in my Book; but that, though she saw not any way to answer it, she could scarce believe, but that 'twas answered in her Religion. The Countess de Roye came to tell her, that Mr. Claude, who had promised to meet me the next day, could not do it, having received a Prohibition. Mademoiselle de Duras testified a very great Discontent at this Proceeding. I would have retired and left her with her Sister; but she requested me to repeat what I had just before represented to her. I did it in a few words, and answered some Objections, that were made me. The next Morning Mademoiselle de Duras came to my House with a worthy Person of her Religion, whom I knew, named Mr. Coton. She had made use of him to engage Mr. Claude to the Conference, and he brought her word, that Mr. Claude had accepted it. She desired me to repeat, what I had said the day before. I did so, and Mr. Coton confessed, he knew not what to answer, and that he had a great Passion to hear Mr. Claude upon this Point. He and Mademoiselle de Duras made me some Objections concerning the frequent Revolts of the People of Israel, who had so often forsaken GOD, the Kings and all the People, as the Holy Scripture speaks; during which, the public Worship was so extinct, that Elijah thought himself the only Servant of GOD, till he learned from GOD himself, that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men, 1 Kin. nineteen. v. 18. which had not bowed the Knee unto Baal. To this I answered, That for what regarded Elijah, there was no difficulty, since 'twas apparent from the very words, that it concerned only Israel, where Elijah prophesied, and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Juda, that 'twas there under the Reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre, it had been since Solomon's time. The thing passed for manifest, and I observed only, how little Sincerity there was in the Ministers to produce still this passage, after the Cardinal du Perron had given it so decisive an Answer. As to what happened in Juda itself, I would yet make the Objection stronger than they had proposed it, by considering the State of Gods' People under Ahaz, 2 Kin. xuj. 2 Chron. xxviij. who shut up the Temple, caused Vrijah the Priest of the Lord to sacrifice to Idols, and filled all JERUSALEM with Abominations; and afterwards under Manasseh, 2 Kin. xxi. 2 Chron. xxxiij. whose Impieties transcended those of Ahaz. But to show, that all this made nothing to the question, I desired 'em only to observe, that Isaiah, who lived during all the Reign of Ahaz, for all these Abominations of the King, of the Priest Vrijah, and almost all the People, never separated from the Communion of Juda, no more than did the rest of the Prophets, who lived at the same time, and in all the other: which shows, that there is always a People of GOD, from whose Communion 'tis never lawful to separate. 'Tis written also, 2 Kin. xxi. v. 10. that in the time of Manasseh, GOD spoke by the Mouth of all his Prophets, and threatened this impious and all the People. But these Prophets, who reprehended and detested the Impieties of this People, separated not from the Communion. And to see into the bottom of the Matter, we must, said I, consider the Constitution of the ancient People. It had this peculiar to itself, that it was multiplied by carnal Generation, by which as well the Succession of the People, as of the Priesthood was kept up; that this People bore in their Flesh the Mark of the Covenant, to wit, Circumcision, which we do not read to have been ever discontinued; and so, though the Priests, and almost all the People should have prevaricated, the State of Gods' People subsisted always in its exterior form, whether they would or no. Nor could there fall out any interruption in the Priesthood, which GOD had tied to Aaron's Family. But 'tis not so with the new People, whose exterior Form consists in nothing, but the Profession of JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine: so that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only Moment, the Church, which has no Succession but by the continuance of this Profession, would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People, or Pastors, but by a new Mission. I added besides, that I would not say, the true Faith and true Worship of GOD could be wholly abolished in the People of Israel, so that GOD had no more any true Servants on Earth. But I find on the contrary, first that 'tis clear, that, maugre the Corruption, GOD still reserved to himself a sufficient Number of Servants, who participated not in the Idolatry. For if it were so in Israel, which was schismatical and separated from Gods' People, as GOD himself declared to Elijah, it must with far greater reason have been so in Judah, which GOD had reserved to himself for the perpetuating his People and Kingdom till the Time of the Messiah. When therefore it is written, that the King and all the People had forsaken GOD● Law, it must not be understood of all the People without exception, but of a great Part, and perhaps of the greatest Part, which the▪ Ministers did not deny. Secondly, 'Tis not to be imagined, that Gods' Servants and the true Faith were preserved only in secret; but that in all the succession of the ancient People, the true Doctrine always shone forth. For there was a continual Succession of Prophets, who instead of adhering to the People's Errors, or dissembling them, ro●● up against them with force; and this Succession was so constant, that the Holy Ghost fears not to say, 2 Chron. xxxvi. v. 15. That GOD risen up night and morning, and daily admonished the People by the Mouth of his Prophets: Jer. xi. v. 7. xxv. v. 3, 4. the forciblest expression, that can be imagined, to show, that the true Faith was never so much as one moment without Publication, nor the People without advertisement. And that 'twas so, we just now saw, how in all the Reign of Ahaz, Isaiah ceased not to prophecy: and under Manasseh, when the Abomination seemed to be mounted to the highest, since neither the Penitence of that King, nor the Holiness of his Grandchild Josiah could revoke the Sentence given against this People, GOD always remembering the Abominations of Manasseh: in this time, I say, we have seen, that GOD made his Prophets speak; and that a great part of the People publicly followed them, appears, in that this impious Prince filled Jerusalem with innocent Blood, 2 Kin. xxi. v. 16. a certain sign, that he found a great resistance to his Idolatries. 'Tis also held, that he caused Isaiah to be put to Death, as his Predecessors had done the other Prophets, who reprehended them; and this History is conserved in the ancient Tradition, conformable to the Word of our Lord, who upbraids the Jows with having killed the Prophets, and to the Discourse of St. Stephen, who says, Mat. xxiii. v. 31, 37. Act. seven. v. 52. That there was not any Prophet but they persecuted. These Prophets made a part of Gods' People; these Prophets kept a considerable part both of the Priests and People in their Duty; these Prophets, who confirmed their Mission by visible Miracles, hindered the Corruption from gaining all; and whilst a terrible Multitude, and perhaps the Gross of the Synagogue was drawn unto Idolatry, they kept the Tradition of the Truth in the People of Israel. Ezekiel, who appeared a little after, shows it, when he speaks of the Priests the Levites, Ezek. xliv. v. 15. the Sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of the Sanctuary, when the Children of Israel went astra●. They, proceeds he, shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the 〈◊〉 and the Blood, saith the Lord GOD. This Succession, not only that of the Flesh, but also that of the Faith and the Ministry, was conserved in those Priests and these Levites, whom Gods' Grace and the Prophet's Preaching had retained in the Service. And 'tis to be observed, That GOD never made this Ministry of the Prophets more illustrious, than when Impiety seemed to have gained the upper hand; so that in the time when the ordinary means of instructing the People was not destroyed, but obscured, GOD prepared the extraordinary and miraculous Means. To this may be added, That this extraordinary Means, to wit, the Prophetical Ministry, was before the Captivity in a manner ordinary with Gods' People, where the Prophets made as 'twere an Order always subsisting, whence GOD continually drew Divine Men, by whose Mouth he spoke loudly and publicly to all his People. From the Return of the Captivity to JESUS CHRIST, there was no more any public and lasting Idolatry. We know what happened under Antiochus the Illustrious; but we know also the Zeal of Mattathias, and the great number of true Believers, that joined to his House, with the famous Victories of Judas Maccabeus and his Brethren; under them and their Successors the Profession of the true Faith continued to JESUS CHRIST. At last the Pharisees introduced into the Religion and Worship many Superstitions. As the Corruption was about to prevail, JESUS CHRIST appeared in the World. Till his coming the Religion was preserved, the Doctors of the Law had many pernicious Maxims and Practices, which crept in and got ground by little and little: they became common, but they were not passed into Doctrines of the Synagogue. Wherefore JESUS CHRIST also said: Mat. xxiii. v. 2, 3. The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses Seat, All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their Works. He ceased not to honour the Ministry of the Priests: He sent the Lepers to 'em according to the Prescript of the Law: He frequented the Temple, and reprehending the Abuses, continud always joined to the Communion of Gods' People, and the Order of the Public Ministry. In fine, the time of the Fall and Reprobation of the ancient People, foretold by the Scriptures and Prophets, came, when the Synagogue condemned JESUS CHRIST and his Doctrine. But then JESUS CHRIST had appeared, he had begun in the Bosom of the Synagogue to assemble his Church, which was to subsist for ever. 'Tis then manifest, first, That there was always a visible Body of Gods' People, continued by an uninterrupted Succession, from the Communion of whom 'twas never lawful to separate. Secondly, Always a Succession of High Priests and Priests descended from Aaron, and Levites issued from Levi; so that there was never any need of Gods' raising up People in an extraordinary manner. Thirdly, 'Tis no less evident, That the true Faith has always been publicly declared, and that there cannot be any one moment assigned, in which the Profession of it has not been as clear as the Light of the Sun: a thing, which shows, how much they are deceived, who believe, that, for to keep up the exterior State of the Church, 'tis sufficient, that one can name from time to time pretended Teachers of the Truth. For if there be any Time, that the Profession of Faith has ceased in the Church, her Condition is so much worse than that of the Synagogue, as she loses from that moment the Succession, as I erewhile said. After I had spoken these things, there was some time employed in passing them over again: and in the mean time the Countess de Roye came to tell us, That Mr. Claude consented to the Conference, which, if I liked it, should be at her House about Three a Clock. I Was at the Rendez-vous, II. The Conference. where I met Mr. Claude. We began by mutual Civilities, and he on his part testified a great Respect. After this, I entered into the Matter, by demanding the Explication of the four Acts, transcribed in my Book, and mentioned here before. After I had in few words explained the Difficulty, as it is proposed in the Exposition, and repeated, what I had said to Mademoiselle de Duras, I added, That Mr. Claude ought to be so much the more ready to answer it, in that what I said, was not at all new to him, since in all appearance the Treatise of the Exposition had fallen into his hands; and that 'twas a great satisfaction, in an Entertainment of the Nature of this, to be assured, there would be no Surprise. Mr. Claude took up the Discourse, and having reiterated all his former Civilities in terms yet more obliging, he declared at first, that all I had objected from their Discipline and Synods in my Treatise, and also at present, was very sincerely related, without any alteration of the Words: But for the Sense he desired Leave to tell me, That, though there were, as I had observed, divers Degrees established in the Jurisdiction, the force of the Decision ought wholly to be referred to Gods' Word alone. As to what I objected, That Gods' Word had been proposed in the Consistory, from which one might appeal, whence it followed, as I inferred, that the last Decision, from which there was no more appealing, belonged to Gods' Word, not taken in itself, but inasmuch as declared by the Churches last Judgement: This was not their Intent; for they held, That the Decision wholly appertained to Gods' Word alone, which the Church in her Assemblies both first and last did but show and point to: But that these divers Degrees had been established to give those, who erred, leisure to bethink themselves. Wherefore they proceeded not at first by Excommunication, the Consistory hoping, that a greater Assembly, such as the Colloquy might be, and afterwards the Provincial Synod, composed of a greater number of Persons, perhaps more respected, or at least less suspected by the Gain-sayer, would dispose him to hear the Truth. That the Colloquy and the Provincial Synod used like Moderation through the same Reason of Charity; but after the National Synod had spoken, as 'twas the last human Remedy, there was no longer any thing to be hoped, and that they proceeded also to the last Sentence, by making use of Excommunication, as the last Effort of the Ecclesiastical Power. That 'twas not thence to be concluded, that the National Synod held itself any more Infallible than the precedent Assemblies; but only, that, after all had been tried, they came to the last Remedy. That for the Promise made before the National Synod, 'twas founded only on the Hopes they had, that the Assembly would follow Gods' Word, and that the Holy Ghost would preside in it, which signified not, that there was an entire Certainty; and besides that the Word, being persuaded, was an honest manner of expressing a Condition without weakening the Reverence of so great an Assembly, or the favourable Presumption, that aught to be had for their Proceed. As to the Condemnation of the Independents, he prayed meto observe, that touching the Authority of the Church and her Assemblies, there was something, in which those of his Religion agreed with us, and something, in which they agreed with the Independents: With us, That Ecclesiastical Assemblies are necessary and useful, and that some Subordination must be established: With the Independents, That these Assemblies, how numerous soever, are not therefore Infallible. This being so, they were obliged to condemn the Independents, who denied not only the Infallibility, but also the Utility and Necessity of these Assemblies, and this Subordination. 'Tis in this, said he, that Independency consists. He added, That to maintain it, was in effect to overthrow Order, and make way for as many Religions, as there were Parishes, because all means of Agreeing were taken away by it. Whence he concluded, That though they agreed Ecclesiastical Assemblies not to be Infallible Means, yet 'twas sufficient for the maintaining of them, and condemning the Independents, that they were useful ones. For the Synod of saint Foy, the Matter there agitated was either to render the Lutherans more tractable by making them, said he, approach to us; or however to establish a mutual Toleration; which obliged us not to suppress any thing in, or add any thing to the Confession of Faith, which was always held for unalterable. And that besides, though full Power was given to four Ministers, yet I well knew, that such Acts were always subject to Ratification, in case the Proxies went beyond their Instructions: Witness the Ratifications necessary in the Treaties, agreed by the Plenipotentiaries of Princes, and other like Examples, in which there is always a Condition to obtain the Prince's Ratification, a Condition, which, without being expressed, is naturally fixed to such Procurations. After he had said these things in a Discourse of sufficient length, very clear, and well composed, he added, That he Believed me so equitable, as to acknowledge willingly, that, as in things, in which I should be to explain to him our Sentiments and our Counsels, 'twould be fit, he should acquiesce in what I should tell him of them, so 'twas no less just, I should rest satisfied with his Explication of the Articles of their Discipline, and Sentiments of their Religion, it being certain, that there was no other amongst 'em, but what he had now declared to me. I replied to this Expression, that, what he said, would be true, if it concerned only the Explication of their Rites, if this Word might be used, and the manner of their Administering the Word or Sacraments, or holding of Synods; that in this I should believe him, as better Instructed; but that here I pretended, it had happened to them, as it does to all those, who are in Error; that is, to fall into Contradiction, and be forced to set up, what they had denied. That I knew, they denied any Obligation of submittingto the Church's Judgement without examining it; but that at the same time I pretended this Infallibility of the Church to be so necessary, that even those, who denied it in Speculation, could not forbear establishing it in Practice, if they would keep any Order amongst them. Besides that, if the Question were here about showing any Contradiction in the Sentiments of the Catholic Church, I should not pretend to oblige him to receive the Explication, I should give him of her Sentiments and her Counsels, but that it should then be free for him to draw from their Words such Inference, as he pleased; and I thought, he would not refuse me as much, to which he consented without Difficulty. I had no Design to insist much on the Synod of saint Foy, which would, I thought, cast me too far from the two Propositions, the Acknowledgement of which I aimed to draw from him. I only therefore answered, That I yielded to the Reason, he alleged concerning the necessity of a Ratification, though in matters of Faith such Powers and Trusts were alittle Extraordinary; and besides, I was willing to believe, that the Synod had no Design, the Deputies should overturn all. But that, which touched me, and which he seemed not to have answered, was. That the Synod had doubted of their Confession of Faith, since they permitted the making of another; and I saw not, how this agreed, with what they farther told us, That this Confession contained nothing but the pure Word of GOD, in which every one knows, that there is nothing to be changed. As to what he said, That their Aim was only to reduce the Lutherans to more equitable Sentiments, or however to establish a mutual Toleration, two things gainsayed it. 1. That there was mention of a Power to decide all Points of Doctrine: Which manifestly concerned the Reality, whence the Lutherans would never recede. 2. That to settle a mutual Toleration there was no need of framing a Confession of common Faith, but only of Establishing this Toleration by a Synodal Decree, as had been done at Charenton. Mr. Claude answered, that the Point of Doctrine to be decided was, Whether a mutual Toleration might be established, and that the Confession of common Faith would have done nothing else, but declared this Toleration: Which he denied not but it might be done in a Synod, as I must grant, that it might also be done in a Confession of Faith, where there should have been an express Article to that purpose. I answered him, That this could never be called a Confession of common Faith; and asked him, Whether he thought the Lutherans, or they, should have retrenched any thing of what the one said for the Reality, and the other against it. He answered me, No. And then, said I, each party would have continued in the Terms of their own Confession of Faith, having nothing common but the Article of Toleration. There were, said he, many other Points, in which we agreed. 'Tis granted, answered I; but 'twas not about these Points, the Accord was to be made: the Question was about the Reality, and some others, on which there could not be made a Confession of common Faith, except one of the Parties changed, or both agreed upon ambiguous Expressions, which each might draw to their own Opinions; a thing, that had been oft attempted, as Mr. Claude himself could not but own. He granted it, and related also the Assembly of Marbourg, and some others, held for that purpose. I concluded then, That I had reason to believe, the Synod of saint Foy had a like Design, and that 'twould have been to mock the World to call that a Confession of common Faith, which should have made appear such manifest oppositions on so important Points of the Christian Doctrine. To which I farther added, 'twas so much the more certain, That a Confession of Faith was, as I said, really in agitation, in that the Lutherans having already several times declared against a Toleration, there was nothing to be expected from them, but by the Means, of which I spoke. The Matter rested there; and I only said, That every one need but consider, what he ought to think in his Conscience of a Confession of Faith, which a whole National Synod had consented to change. When Mr. Claude was saying, That the Oath of submitting to the National Synod included a Condition, I had interrupted him by putting in a word. Yes, said I, they hoped well of the Synod, yet without certainty; and expecting the Event, they forbore not to swear, they would submit. Mr. Claude telling me here, That I interrupted him, and praying me to let him say all, I held my peace. But after the Affair of saint Foy was discussed, I said to him, That I thought it necessary, before we passed any farther, I should tell him in a few words, what I had conceived of his Doctrine, to the end we might not speak in the air. I said then to him; You say, Sir, That these Words, Being persuaded, that GOD will preside in it, and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity, through the Rule of his Word, are only an honest manner of proposing a Condition. He agreed it. Let us then, said I, reduce the Proposition into a conditional one, and we shall see, what will be the sense of it. I swear to submit to all you shall decide, on this Supposition, or Condition, That, what you shall decide, be agreeable to Gods' Word. Such an Oath is nothing else but a manifest Illusion, as signifying nothing, and being but what I might make to Mr. Claude, or he to me. But in this there would not be any thing serious; and 'tis to be observed, that something more particular must be aimed at, since this Oath is only made to the Synod, which gives the final determination; though in Mr. Claude's Sense there were as much Reason to make it to the Consistory, to which they ought to submit, as well as to the Synod, supposing, it has the Word of GOD for its Guide. In this place I held my peace a little, and seeing, that there was not a word said, I went on thus. But in fine then, Sir, if I well understand your Doctrine, you believe, That a private person may doubt of the Church's Judgement, even when she gives her final Determination. No, Sir, answered Mr. Claude, 'tis not to be said, That one may doubt, there being all the Likelihood in the World, that the Church will judge well. He, that says Likelihood, Sir, replied I immediately, says a manifest Doubt. But, said Mr. Claude, There is more: for JESUS CHRIST having promised, that those who would seek, should find; since 'tis to be presumed, they will seek well, 'tis to be also believed, they will judge well, and in this assurance there is something indubitable. But when there shall be seen in Counsels Cabals, Factions, different Interests, it may with reason be doubted, Whether in such an Assembly there will not be mixed something human and doubtful. Pray, Sir, said I, let us set aside what is good for nothing but to throw dust in ones Eyes. All, you say of Cabals, Factions, Interests, is absolutely to no purpose, and consequently serves only to perplex. There is nothing, said Mr. Claude, more to the purpose. And I affirm, answered I, That yourself will grant, there's nothing less to the purpose. For I ask you, Sir, Supposing there should appear in the Council neither Factions nor Cabals; supposing also one were assured, that there were not any, and that all passed in Order, must one receive the Decision without examining it? He was fain to answer, No. Whence I immediately concluded: I had then reason to say, That all, you alleged, as very considerable, concerning Factions and Cabals, was in the bottom only an Amusement; and in fine, that a private person, a Woman, any ignorant Fellow, whatever he is, may believe, and aught to believe, that he may happen to understand Gods' Word better than a whole Council, though assembled from the four quarters of the World; and than all the rest of the Church. Yes, said he, 'tis so. I repeated twice or thrice the Proposition, he had granted, adding still some stronger Circumstance; but evidently contained, in what was accorded. What, said I, better than all the rest of the Church together, and than all her Assemblies, though composed of the holiest and most illuminated persons in the Universe? For all these are still but men, after whom, according to your Doctrine, every one ought still to examine. A private person shall believe, that he may have more Grace, more Light; in fine, more of the Holy Ghost than all the rest of the Church! All this must pass; and I might have added, more than all the Fathers, more than all the past Ages, reckoning immediately from the Apostles times. But, proceeded I, if it be so, how do you avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents; and what Means has the Church left to hinder the being of as many Religions, I do not say, as there are Parishes, but as there are Heads? We have, said he, Synods, which are Means to hinder so great Evils, Means not infallible, but nevertheless profitable, as I have said. For though a Pastor, that preaches, is not infallible, his Ministry ceases not to be profitable, because he declares the Truth. But a great Assembly, composed of more persons, and those of greater Learning, will yet better make this Declaration. Methinks, Sir, replied I, That you refer all to Instruction: but this is not precisely either the Intention or Institution of Synods; for oftentimes one understanding private Person will give more Instruction, than a whole Synod together. What must be expected from a Synod, is not so much Instruction, as a Decision by Authority, to which there is a necessity of yielding: for this is, what both the ignorant, who doubt, and the proud, who contradict, stand in need of. An ignorant private person, if you leave him to himself, will confess to you, that he knows not, on what to resolve; and far from abating Pride in a Synod, you carry it to its highest Point, since you oblige a private person to believe, that he can understand the Scripture better than the Synod, and all the rest of the Church: and the Synod itself, though assembled from the whole Church, being asked by him, whose Faith it examines, whether he is not obliged to examine after the Synod, and whether it may not so fall out, that he, though a private person, may understand the Scripture, better than all the Pastors assembled, the Synod, though universal, must, according to your Doctrine, declare, That without doubt he may. Presumption, Sir, cannot go higher. And observe, if you please, that these Assemblies, which you propose as profitable Means, are no longer so, when every one may believe, that he has a better, and the only one, that can secure him, to wit, that of examining by himself, and believing only his own Judgement. This, Sir, is perfect Independency; for the Independents neither refuse to hold Synods for their mutual Instruction, nor to receive these Synods, when they find, that these Synods say well. You know, they have held some. He acknowledged, they had held one, to frame their Confession of Faith. I matter not, replied I, whether one, or more; they do not then absolutely reject them, and they reject in them precisely no more, than you do, which is the obligation of submitting to them without examining. And upon this, to reduce myself in few words, see, what was my Argument. The Independents are very willing to have Ecclesiastical Assemblies for Instruction; all, they will not have, is the authoritative Decision, which you will no more have than they: you are then wholly conformable, and you ought not to have condemned them. You see not then, Sir, said Mr. Claude, That we deny not, but there is an Authority in Synods, such an one as the Paternal Authority, such an one as the Authority of Magistrates, such an one as the Authority, a Master has over his Scholar, and a Pastor our his Flock; all these Authorities have their use, and are not to be rejected under pretence, That the Fathers, Magistrates and Masters may be deceived: 'tis the same then with the Authority of the Church. But, Sir, answered I, the Independents deny not the Authority of Magistrates, nor the Authority of Masters over their Scholars, nor that of Pastors over their Flocks. They have Pastors, Sir, for whom they require no less than you, that there should be some Deference had; and much more will they not deny, but it ought to be had for a whole Synod. If then you accuse them of denying the Authority of Synods, you must add something to what they believe, and there is nothing to be added, but what we believe, which is, That we must submit to them without examining. After this, for a little time we did nothing on both sides but repeat the same things. Which having caused Mr. Claude to observe, I said to him, In fine, Sir, we should dispute without end; every one has nothing more to do, but to examine in his Conscience, and before GOD, whether he thinks himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all Counsels, and all the rest of the Church, and how such an Opinion can agree with the Docility and Humility of Gods' Children. I inculcated in few words, what a Pride it was for one to believe, he could understand Gods' Word better than all the rest of the Church, and how after this, nothing hindered the being of as many Religions, as there are Heads. Mr. Claude here told me, he wondered, this Proposition should appear so strange to me, That a private person might believe, he might happen to understand the Holy Scripture better than the whole Church assembled; That the Case had happened, and he could give me many Examples of it: The first in the Council of Ariminum, where the Word Consubstantial was rejected, and Arianism set up. I interrupted him, saying: Whither do you carry us, Sir? From the Council of Ariminum you will bring us to the false Council of Ephesus, to the Council of Constance, to that of Basil, to that of Trent: When shall we have done, if we must here pass over all these Counsels? I declare to you, that I will not engage myself in this Discussion, since our Question may be determined by something more precise. But because you have mentioned the Council of Ariminum, tell me, Sir, I beseech you, whether the Fathers of that Council continued long in this erroneous Decision? I ought to have said equivocal and imperfect rather than erroneous. I believe indeed, Sir, said he,, That they quickly returned. Say, say, Sir, answered I, that, assoon as the Emperor Constantius declared Protector of the Arians, and Persecutor of the Faithful, had permitted them to retire, these Bishops complained aloud of the Violence and Surprise, that had been put upon 'em. Oblige me not, Sir, to relate this Story, which you know as well as I, and acknowledge, That 'tis unjust to compare a Council, manifestly packed, with Assemblies held canonically, and according to Order. Ha', Sir, replied Mr. Claude, do not we say, That the Council of Trent was neither free nor canonical? You say it, Sir, and we deny it; and that is not the Question of this Dispute. The present Question is, to know, whether you can avoid Independency; and whether there be in your Doctrine any Remedy against this insupportable Presumption of a private person, who must believe, according to your Principles, that he can understand the Scripture better than the best assembled and best held universal Counsels, and than all the rest of the Church together. Let us leave then, if you will, the Council of Ariminum; see here another indisputable Example: 'Tis the Judgement of the Synagogue, when it condemned JESUS CHRIST, and consequently declared, that he was not the Messiah, promised by the Prophets. Tell me, Sir, would not a private person, who should then have believed our Lord to be the true CHRIST, have judged better, than all the rest of the Synagogue together? See then an indubitable Case, in which one may without Presumption do, what you think so presumptuous. In effect, proceeded he, 'tis no Presumption, not to give to the Church, what belongs only to GOD alone. We cannot give him any thing greater, than to believe him blindfold, as you would have us believe the Church. But you know, that St. Paul, at least as much inspired as the Church, forbears not to declare to the Corinthians, That he will not have Dominion over their Faith. 2. Cor. i 23. The Church ought yet less to do it than he. We must not then believe her simply on her Word; we must examine after her, and make use of our Reason, as those of Beraea did, who examined the Scriptures, Acts xvii. v. 11. to see, whether the things were there, as St. Paul had preached them. When Mr. Claude held his Peace, Here, said I, are many things: But we must first take in hand this indisputable Example, you have proposed to us. Upon this I remonstrated to him, That the Christian Church had great Privileges above the Synagogue, even considering the Synagogue in the time of its greatest Glory: But not to mention this, 'twas a strange thing to compare the Synagogue falling, at the very Moment, when its Hardening and Reprobation was clearly marked by the Prophets, with the Christian Church, which was never to fall. But in fine, Sir, replied he, one might have then made to this private Person the same Argument, you make to us. To allege the Prophets was to no purpose, for 'twas concerning the Application of these Prophecies to JESUS CHRIST, that the Synagogue doubted. Thus a private Person could no more believe in JESUS CHRIST, without believing at the same time, that he understood the Scripture better than all the Synagogue; and this is the Argument, you make to us. There were but few People at the Conference, and they were all Hugonots, except the Mareschalless De Lorge. I saw two of these Gentlemen look on one another at this place with Complacence. I was touched, that a Reasoning, so visibly ill, should make such an Impression on these Spirits; and I besought GOD to grant me the Grace, that I might by something, that should be clear, destroy the odious Comparison, which was made of his always wellbeloved Church with the faithless Synagogue at that very Moment, he had assigned for her Divorce. You say then, Sir, said I to Mr. Claude, that the Argument I make, may authorize the Error of those private Persons, who condemned JESUS CHRIST on the Faith of the Synagogue, and on the contrary condemn those of Presumption, who believed JESUS CHRIST alone before the whole Synagogue. Yes, Sir, said he, the thing is so, repeating his Discourse afresh. Let us see then, said I, whether my Argument has this unhappy Consequence. It consists, Sir, in saying, That, the Church's Authority being denied, there is no longer any exterior Means, which GOD can make use of to dissipate the Doubts of the Ignorant, and inspire necessary Humility into the Faithful. To the end such an Argument may be made concerning the time, when JESUS CHRIST was condemned, it must be said, that there was not then any exterior Means, any certain Authority, to which one ought necessarily to submit. Now, Sir, who can say this, since JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth, that is, the Truth itself, which appeared visibly in the midst of Men, the Eternal Son of GOD, to whom a Voice from on high bare Witness before all the People, Matt. iii. v. 17. This is my wellbeloved Son, hear ye him; who, to confirm his Mission, raised the Dead, healed those that were born blind, and wrought so many Miracles, that the Jews themselves confessed, never any Man had done the like? There was then, Sir, an exterior Means, a visible Authority. But 'twas contested: 'Tis true, but 'twas infallible. I do not pretend, Sir, that the Church's Authority should never be contested; I hear you, you, Sir, who contest it: But I say, it ought not to be so by Christians. I say, That she is Infallible; I say, That there never was any time, when there was not on the Earth a visible and speaking Authority, to which Men were obliged to submit. Before JESUS CHRIST we had the Synagogue; when the Synagogue was to fail, JESUS CHRIST himself appeared, when JESUS CHRIST retired, he left his Church, to which he sent his Holy Spirit. Bring again JESUS CHRIST teaching, preaching, working Miracles, I have no longer need of the Church; but also take from me the Church, I must have JESUS CHRIST in Person, speaking, preaching, deciding with Miracles, and an infallible Authority. But you have his Word. Yes we have without doubt a Word Holy and Adorable, but such an one, as suffers itself to be explicated and managed, how one will, and makes no Reply to those, that misunderstand it. I say, we must have an exterior Means of resolving Doubts, and this Means must be certain. And not to go over again the Reasons, already alleged, now there is nothing else required but to answer your Objection concerning the Error of the Synagogue, I aver, you are so far from being able to say, That there was not then a certain exterior Means, or speaking Authority, to which Men were obliged to submit their Judgements, that you must avow, there was one, the highest, and most infallible, that ever was, which is that of JESUS CHRIST; and so that there was never any time, when the Argument, I use against the Protestants, could less be made, which is, That they want an exterior infallible Means to determine Doubts about the Scriptures. After I had said this, I perceived, there was no Reply to be made me. In effect, There was not a Word said to me upon it, though I held my Peace, to hear what Answer would be made. I will not say, that Mr. Claude stood silent, 'tis an Effect not much to be expected in Conferences of this nature. He repeated something of what he had already said, and insisted afresh on what the Apostle himself had declared, That he had not Dominion over the Consciences. I was glad, that he returned to this Passage, which I had an intent of Explicating at first; but was fain to go to what was most pressing, which was the Example of the Synagogue. This being done, I only asked Mr. Claude, whether the Apostles Meaning, when he said to the Corinthians, We have not Dominion over your Faith, was, that they must examine after him. He saw well, that it was not, and confessed it. I concluded, Nor does the Church, Sir, pretend to have Dominion over the Faith, when she requires us to believe it in her Decisions, because she gives not this Authority to herself, no more than St. Paul did, but to the Holy Ghost, who inspires her. You equal then, said Mr. Claude, to St. Paul, Author of the Revelation, the Church, which is but the bare Interpreter. No, Sir, replied I, I equal not the Church to St. Paul; but I say, that to pretend, one ought to be Believed without examining, when one thinks to act only as an Instrument, of which the Holy Ghost makes use, is not to have Dominion over the Conscience, as the Example of St. Paul demonstrates. Besides, I pretend not to equal the Church's Authority to the Apostolical. The Apostles were Authors of the Revelation, as you have very well said; that is, they first received the Truths, which it pleased GOD to reveal: The Church is only the Interpreter and Depositary. But saving this essential Difference between the Apostles and the Church, I say, That the Church is as much inspired to Interpret, as the Apostles were to Establish; and that holding the Grace of Interpretation from the same Spirit, which gave the first Revelation to the Apostles, she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in Interpreting, than the Apostles did in Establishing: But that both the one and the other cause the Holy Ghost to have Dominion over them, according to the Measure, which is given to every one. It must be proved, said Mr. Claude, that the Church has received a like Grace. There's no need of proving, answered I immediately; 'tis sufficient to show, that the Passage, you allege, is not concluding. To this there was nothing said. But, if I remember well, Mr. Claude exaggerated a little, how strange it was, that we would oblige Men to believe the Church, like GOD himself, upon her bare Word, without making use, for the Interpretation of Scripture, of the Reason, GOD has given us; that those of Beraea did not so; and that the Apostle, according to our Opinion, was much to blame for letting them examine his Preach. I answered, That there was a very great Difference between the Faithful, already Children of the Church, and subjected to her Authority, and those, that still doubted, whether they should enter into her Bosom: That those of Beraea were in this last Condition, and the Apostle would not by any means propose to 'em the Church's Authority, of which they doubted: But that the Faithful were not instructed in the same manner after the Council of Jerusalem. There the Apostles decided by Authority of the Holy Ghost: Act. XV. v. 28. Act. XVI. v. 4. It has seemed good, say they, to the Holy Ghost, and to us. What do Paul and Silas, Carriers of the Counsels Letter after this? They went through the Cities, as 'tis in the Acts: What, to cause the Council of Jerusalem's Decree to be there examined? 'Twould have been to examine after the Holy Ghost himself. What then? They went through the Cities, delivering them the Decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders which were at Jerusalem. See the Order: The Examen in the Council; the Obedience without examining after the Decision; the Examen in those of Beraea, that is, in those, who, not being in the Church, have yet no Authority to regulate them: Submission without examining in those, who, being already in the Church, are only to hear her Decrees. 'Tis their Happiness to be in a Body, which, guided by the Holy Ghost, can never be deceived, and by that means be delivered from the Danger of an Examen, the end of which would perhaps be Error. The Conference had already lasted four Hours. I already had from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgement one of the Propositions, I would make him confess, to wit, That every particular Person ought to believe, he may understand the Holy Scripture better than the Universal Counsels, and all the rest of the Church. He must yet own the other Proposition, no less Important; and see how GOD brought him to it. As he had spoken much of this Dominion of the Church over Consciences, repeating three or four times, That we gave her the Respect, which was due to none but GOD alone, when we believed her without Examining, I told him, he need not make so strange of a thing, which they did, as well as we; and upon that I asked him, Whether a Believer at his first Receiving the Holy Scripture from the Church were obliged first to doubt, and after to examine, whether the Book, she put into his Hand, were truly inspired by GOD or no. If this Believer examines and doubts, he renounces the Faith, and gins the reading of the Gospel by an Act of Infidelity; and if he doubts not, he than receives, without examining, the Authority of the Church, which presents him the Gospel. To this see Mr. Claude's Answer. The Believer, you suppose, who has not read the Holy Scripture, and into whose Hands 'tis put, to speak properly, doubts not, he is ignorant: He knows not, what this Scripture is, which, he is told, is inspired by GOD. He has heard his Father, and those, who instructed him, say, That 'twas divinely inspired: He yet knows no other Authority but theirs; and as for what concerns the Scripture, he knows not, what it is. Thus he cannot be said to be Unbelieving or Incredulous. And pray, Sir, said he, let me make you the same Argument upon the Church, as you make me upon the Scripture. The Believer, to whom the Church's Authority is proposed, either believes it without examining, or doubts: If he doubts, he is an Infidel: If he doubts not, by what Authority is he assured? Is the Church's Authority a thing evident of itself, and must be not find it by some Examen? This is your Difficulty, which you have to solve as well as I: either let us quit 'em both, or resolve 'em both together. I declare to you, that I will answer for the Scripture, what you shall answer me for the Church. I understand you, answered I, but before I explain to you, how the Christian believes the Church, let us first settle the Matter, that is in question. Is it not evident, Sir, amongst you as well as amongst us, That, when the Holy Scripture is shown to Children educated in the Church, 'tis shown them, as a Book inspired by GOD; and I ask, whether they cannot, when they are caused to read something in it, make this Act of Faith: I certainly believe, that, what I am going to read, is Gods' Word? Mr. Claude answered here, That those, of whom I spoke to him, had yet no divine Faith concerning the Authority of the Scripture, but a bare human Persuasion, grounded on the Deference, they had for their Parents, and that they were but Catechumen. Catechumen, Sir? said I. You must not, if you please, speak so. They are Christians; they are baptised; they have in them the Holy Ghost, and Faith infused; they are in the Covenant, according to you; they have received Baptism, as a Seal of the Covenant, to which they are admitted; and as the Covenant is sealed in them by the exterior Seal of Baptism, the Holy Ghost seals it interiorly in their Hearts. Know your own Doctrine. Upon this, said Mr. Claude, you know, that one might dispute; but I own, what you say. And well then, answered I, if it be so, they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost, and Faith infused, in condition to make an Act of Faith, when the Faith shall be preached to them; and I ask, when the Scripture, acknowledged by the whole Church for a Word inspired by GOD, is shown them, Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith: I believe, that this Scripture is Gods' Word, as I believe, that GOD is. Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this, but always answered, That they had yet only an human Persuasion about the Scripture, and that Divine Faith came not to them, till they had read it. If they have, said I, but an human Persuasion, they have but a doubtful Persuasion; and consequently doubt of that, which is, according to you, the whole Foundation of the Faith: In one word, they are Infidels. No, said he, they are barely ignorant; and you must also say as much of the Faith, one has in the Church: For 'tis not a matter of small difficulty, to discern, which is the true Church; and before one is in a condition to know it of one's self, one is ignorant of it; or one has at most but a bare human Persuasion on the Faith of ones Parents. Thus once again, what you shall say upon the Church, I will say to you upon the Scripture. Let us see, Sir, answered I, whether you will say it, or whether you will have reason to say it. You acknowledge then, That a baptised Christian, who has neither read the holy Scripture, nor heard it read, is not in condition to make this Act of Faith: I believe, that this Scripture is Gods' Word, as I believe, that GOD is. Behold a terrible Inconvenience, that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith. 'Tis not so amongst us: For the Believer, who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church, makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith: As I believe, that GOD is, so I believe, that this Scripture is the Word of him, in whom I believe. And I say, that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith, he has already in the Authority of the Church, which presents him the Scripture. I must here, proceeded I, throughly explicate, but simply nevertheless, in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture. I speak not of Infidels, I speak of baptised Christians; and I desire you to observe well this Distinction. There are two things here to be considered. The one is; who it is, that inspires us with the Act of Faith, by which we believe the Holy Scripture as Gods' Word; and we say, that 'tis the Holy Ghost: On this we are agreed. The other thing to be considered, is, what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture; and I say, That 'tis the Church. That it is so, we need only see the Apostles Creed, that is, the first Instruction, which a Believer receives: He has not read the Holy Scripture, and already he believes in GOD, and in JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost, and the Universal Church. There is no mention made to him of the Scripture; but the believing the Universal Church is proposed to him, as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost. These two Articles enter together into his Heart, the Holy Ghost and the Church; because he, who believes in the Holy Ghost, necessarily also believes the Universal Church, which the Holy Ghost directs. I say then, that the first Act of Faith, which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptised Christians, is to believe with the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the Universal Church; and that this is the exterior Means, by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture. If this Means is not certain, the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful. But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain, there is not any Moment, in which he cannot say: As I believe, that GOD is, I believe, that GOD has spoken to men, and that this Scripture is his Word. And the Reason, for which he can at first make this Act of Faith, is, because he never doubted of the Church's Authority, and because this is the first thing, which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST. As to what you ask me, how he believes the Church, that is not precisely our Question: 'Tis sufficient, that we see, he always believes it, since 'tis the first thing, the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart, and the exterior Means, by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture, The Scripture, of which he never offers to doubt, since he never doubted of the Church, which presents it to him. This, Sir, is our Doctrine, and because 'tis not yours, you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience, I have noted: Because you believe not the Church's Authority, as a thing, which cannot fail, we show you a Point of time, in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture, and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer. Mr. Claude told me here, That the Child, who recited the Creed, spoke like a Parrot, without Understanding, what he said; and so we ought not to insist much upon that: And besides, that I affirmed gratis, That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith, which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptised Christian, to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture: In fine, That I answered not, what he asked me concerning the Church, nor how we began to believe her; for, said he, The Holy Ghost is the Principle, and not the Motive of Believing: That 'twas requisite therefore, I should explicate, how we believed the Church, and by what Motive; and that from my manner of speaking it seemed, as if we believed her by Enthusiasm, and without any Motive inducing us so to do. To this I answered, I pretended not, That the Church was believed by Enthusiasm; That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility, which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful, as he pleased; That he was not ignorant of them, but they were not now in Question. Our Business now is, said I, to know, whether the exterior Means, which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture, is not the Church's Authority. I speak not gratis, when I say, That this is the first thing, which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptised Christians; for in the Creed there is mentioned to them the Universal Church, and she is proposed to their Belief, without speaking to them of the Scripture. 'Tis to no purpose to say, That Children repeat at first, like Parrots, both the Creed, and the Name of the Universal Church. Let us leave, said I, the Parrot, that speaks only by Memory: Let us come to the time, when the Christian has the use of Reason, and when he can make an Act of Faith. By what shall he begin, but by what he began to be instructed? He believes then the Universal Church, before he believes the Scripture. In effect, make, I do not say a Child, but any Man whosoever, read the Canticle of Canticles, in which there is not the least mention of GOD, either good or bad: In good earnest, He believes this Book inspired by GOD, only because of the Tradition; First, of the Synagogue, and Secondly, of the Christian Church, that is in one word, through the Authority of the Universal Church. But let us keep to our Point. Let us consider the Christian in the Moment, when the Holy Scripture is proposed to him as the Word of GOD. 'Tis the Holy Ghost, which makes him believe it; we are agreed on that Point: But we dispute about the exterior Means, of which the Holy Ghost makes use. I say, That 'tis the Church, since 'tis she in effect, which proposes to him the Holy Scripture; since he believed the Church, before he heard of the Scripture; since at his opening the Scripture, he is in Condition to say: I believe this Scripture, as I believe, that GOD is. You say, That he cannot make this Act of Faith: He is then no Believer, and his Baptism is of no use to him. We must instruct him as an Infidel, saying to him: Here is the Scripture, which I believe inspired by GOD; read it Child, examine it, see, whether it be the very Truth or a Fable. The Church believes it inspired by GOD; but the Church may be deceived, and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith: As I believe, that GOD is, so I believe, that he himself inspired this Scripture. If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians, and leads manifestly to Impiety, the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture, proposed to him by the Church; he must consequently believe, That the Church is not deceived in giving him this Scripture. A● he receives from her the Scripture, he receives from her the Interpretation of it; and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining, than she does in obliging us to believe, without examining, the Scripture itself. By this Argument, Sir, replied Mr. Claude, you would make every one conclude in Favour of his Church. The Greeks, the Armenians, the Ethiopians, we ourselves, whom you believe to be in error; we are nevertheless Baptised; we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infused, of which you have been speaking. Every one of us has received the Holy Scripture from the Church, in which he was baptised; every one believes his to be the true Church declared in the Creed; and at the first he even knows not any other. Now if, as we have received, without examining, the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church, in which we are, we must also, as you say, receive blindfold all its Interpretations; 'tis an Argument to conclude, That every one ought to continue, as he is, and that every Religion is good. This was in truth the strongest Objection, that could be made; and though the Solution of this Doubt appeared clear to me, I was in pain, how I might render it clear to those, who heard me. I spoke with trembling, seeing it concerned the Salvation of a Soul; and I besought GOD, who made me see the Truth so clearly, That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly: For I had to do with a Man, who herded▪ patiently, spoke clearly and strongly, and in fine pushed the Difficulties to the utmost points. I told him, I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks, Armenians, and others, he had named, who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true; but believe at least, as indubitable, That the true Church, wheresoever she is, must be believed, and that she never deceives her Children. You are, said I to him, much farther off; for I can lay to your Charge, That you do not only, like the Greeks and Ethiopians, take a false Church for a true; but, what is undeniable, and what you yourself confess, That you will not have us even believe the true. After this Distinction, which seemed necessary to me, let us come to your Difficulty. Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks, and other false Churches, what there is of Truth, what they have in common with the true Universal Church; in a word, what comes from GOD, from that, which comes from human Prejudice. GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those, who are baptised in these Churches, That there is a GOD, and a JESUS CHRIST, and an Holy Ghost. Hitherto there is no Error; all this is from GOD: Is it not true? He agreed it. They believe also, That there is an Universal Church: Are they not right in this, and is it not a Truth, revealed by GOD, that there is one indeed? I expected his Acknowledgement, and after he had given it, I added, That the Greeks and Ethiopians were disposed to believe without examining, whatever the true Church proposed to 'em. This is, what you approve not, Sir; in this you are separated from all other Christians, who unanimously believe, That there is a true Church, which never deceives her Children. I, who believe this with them, reckon this Belief amongst the things, which come from GOD: But see, where the human Prejudices begin. This Baptised, being seduced by his Parents and Pastors, believes the Church, in which he is, to be the true, and attributes in particular to this false Church all, that GOD makes him believe in general of the true. 'Tis not the Holy Ghost, that puts this in his Heart: Is it not true? 'Tis without doubt true. In this place he gins to believe amiss. Here Error gins; here the Divine Faith, infused by the Holy Ghost, gins to be lost. Happy are those, in whom the human Prejudices are joined with the true Belief, which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart. They are exempt from a great Temptation, and the terrible Pain, there is to distinguish that, which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church, from that, which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things, GOD knows them, and distinguishes them; and there will be an eternal Difference between that, which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptised, when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church, and that, which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one. How these Baptised may afterwards disentangle these things, and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession, that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church, in which they are, with the Faith of the true Church, which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed, is not now in debate; and 'tis sufficient, that we have seen in all the Baptised a Belief of the Church, which comes to them from GOD, distinguished from the Thought, which comes to them from Men. This being so, I affirm, That to this Belief of the Church, which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed, is fixed a firm Faith, That we must believe this Church as certainly, as the Holy Ghost, to whom the Creed itself immediately joins her; and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause, the Believer never doubts of the Scripture. I stopped a moment, to ask, whether I were understood. Mr. Claude answered, That he understood me perfectly. And if it be so, said I to him, you ought to see the Inconvenience, into which your Belief casts you; and you ought also to see, That I am not in the same by mine. You not only say, That we must not believe a false Church, but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says; and in this you speak against all other Christians. Mademoiselle de Duras interposed, saying: in this place: This is, what must be answered by, Ay or No. I said it indeed, answered Mr. Claude, and I did not stick to say it at first. So much the better, replied I. We shall soon see, which of us two has Reason, and in the clear State, things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses, the Truth will soon appear on one side or other. From the time, you lay it down for certain, That the Church, even the true one may deceive us, the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith, That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith, answered Mr. Claude, but not with a divine Faith. But human Faith, replied I, is always defective, and doubting: He doubts then, whether the Scripture be inspired by GOD, or no. Mr. Claude here prayed me to remember, what he had already said, That he was not in Doubt, but in Ignorance. As a Man, said he, not skilled in Diamonds, being shown one, and asked, whether he believes it to be good or bad; knows nothing of it, neither is he in Doubt, but in Ignorance. In like manner, when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy, the Scholar, who understands not yet, what he means, has no formal Doubt, but is in a bare Ignorance. So is it with those, to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given. And I, said I, affirm, That he doubts, and that he, who is not skilled in Diamonds, doubts, whether that, which is presented to him, be good or bad, and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all, his Master in Philosophy tells him, till he sees it clear, because he believes not his Master Infallible; and by the same Reason, he, who believes not the Church Infallible, doubts of the Truth of Gods' Word, which she proposes to him. This is called Ignorance, and not Doubt, still said Mr. Claude: And I made this Argument. To doubt is not to know, whether a thing be or not. The Christian, of whom we speak, knows not, whether the Scripture be true or no: He is then in Doubt. Tell me, what is it to doubt, but not to know, whether a thing be or no? To this there was no Answer, but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture, but was only ignorant of it. But, said I, he is not like an Infidel, who perhaps never heard▪ any mention of it. He knows, That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as Gods' Word, and that none of the Faithful doubt it. Can he believe with them as certainly, as he believes GOD is, That this Word is inspired by GOD? You have said, That he cannot make this Act of Faith: He, that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article, proposed to him, makes at least, as I may so say, an Act of Doubt. Mr. Claude still answered, That he was in a pure Ignorance. And well, let us leave contesting about Words: He does not Doubt, if you please; but he knows not, whether this Scripture be a Truth, or a Fable; he knows not, whether the Gospel be an History inspired by GOD, or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point, nor say, I believe, as GOD is; that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledge, That he cannot make this Act, and that he has nothing but an human Faith? He again freely confessed, That he knew nothing else. Well, Sir, 'tis enough. In fine then there is a Point of Time, when every Baptised Christian knows not, whether the Gospel be not a Fable: This is given him to examine: See, to what we must come, when we are set to examine after the Church. We might discourse without end: But we have said all, that can be said on both sides, and we should do nothing but begin again. 'Tis for every one to examine in his Conscience, how he can maintain, That a Baptised Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing, whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable, and that amongst other Questions, which one may make in ones Life, this also must be given him to examine. It appeared to me, by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas, that she understood 〈◊〉: I notwithstanding expected a little▪ And Mr. Claude risen up. Mademoiselle de Duras risen with us, and coming to us, said: I could wish, That, before you broke up, something might be said concerning the Separation. The thing is done, answered I. As soon as 'tis certain, That one cannot examine after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride, no● without doubting of the Gospel, there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉. Every one need only consider, whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel, and also, whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World, and than all the rest of the Universal Church. But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation, I beseech you, Sir, give me a Moment more. I shall propose to you essential Facts, on which, ●f I be not deceived, you must soon agree. I ask you, Sir, Whether the Arians separated from the Church, and whether their Sect, when it appeared, was not new? They did not, said he, separate from the Church; they corrupted it. He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration, ●ow they drew with them the whole Church▪ 'Tis not so, Sir, said I, You know, That St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzen, and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth, and that a great Body of People followed them. You know, That all the West, and Rome itself, notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius, was Orthodox. But let us leave all this, said I to him; in what Number soever they separated, there was a Church before them, from which they broke, and against which they set up another Church. No, said he, They corrupted it. Ha', Sir, replied I: What Difficulty is this? Never any Heretics separated but by corrupting some of the Church's Children, and separating with them from the Church, in which they had all been baptised. But in fine, tell me, Sir, Was not the Sect of the Arians, and that Church, which is named the Arian, new? If you mean, Sir, answered he, That Arius was the first, who spoke against the Divinity of the Son of GOD, 'tis not true. Origen before him, and Justin Martyr said the same thing. Ha', Sir, said I: That a Martyr denied the Divinity of GGDs Son, is, what I shall never believe. As to Origen, you know, that he is alleged both for and against it: He is an ambiguous and suspected Author. But, Sir, let us leave uncertain Facts: And let us endeavour to find one, about which both you and I may agree. That Sect, which after the Condemnation pronounced against Arius, joined with this excommunicated Priest, and formed a Church against the Church, was it not new? He could not but grant it. To prove its Newness, continued I, was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles, and could not one say to it: Church, separated from that other Church, in which Arius was born, and in which he received Baptism, you were neither yesterday, nor the day before? One might, said Mr. Claude. May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church, which denied the Divinity of the Holy Ghost; of the Nestorians, who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person; of the Eutychians, that confounded his two Natures; and of the Pelagians, who denied Original Sin, and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST? Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles: When you came into the World, you found the Church baptising Children unto Remission of Sins, and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels? What then all these Heretics, and all the rest, whom you and we know, oppugned, was believed not only from the Apostles time, but yesterday and the day before, and at the time, when these Heresiarches came, and they found the Church in this Belief. But, answered Mr. Claude, There are two ways of establishing Error; the one open, and the other secret and insensible. Stay, Sir, said I to him, we ought to propose evident Facts, which both Parties agree. I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error. Ha', Sir, said he, will you say, That you shall find praying to Saints, and Purgatory, in the Apostles times? No, Sir, answered I, I will say nothing about them, for you will not agree it; and I will say such things, as you may agree. Deal in the same manner with me. He, that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts, granted by his Adversary, will have a great Argument, that the Truth is for him: For 'tis the Property of Truth to keep itself upon all sides, and to condemn Error by Facts, which Error itself acknowledges. And since you mention Prayer to Saints, you are sincere: is it not true, that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity? Thirteen hundred Years, Sir, answered he, is not the whole time of the Church. I agree it, said I to him; but in fine, my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years; he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen, St. Basil, St. Ambrose, St. Hierom, St. Chrysostom, St. Augustin. All these, said Mr. Claude, are but Men. Let them be Men, as much as you please: But in fine, we have from our Adversaries Confession, thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints, and Veneration of Relics; for these two things were joined together, as you know, Mr. Daillé asserts. And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead? 'Tis true, said Mr. Claude, That this is the ancientest Error of the Church. Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity, said I to him, is what Mr. Blondel yields us. I say not this, to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrine; that is not the matter in hand: But I say it, to show, That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread, since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred, and fourteen hundred Years. Let us come then to▪ evident Facts, on which I may agree. For as for you, you agree, That the Arians, Nestorians, Pelagians, and in one word, all Heretics were established, as I have said. They found not any Church, to which they united themselves. They erected one, which was separated from all the other Churches, that then were. This is certain: Is it not manifest? I expected: Mr. Claude contradicted it not; I thought not myself obliged to press him any farther upon a thing evident, and already owned. Now, said I to him, how were the Orthodox Churches established? When particular Persons and People, for Example the Indians, were converted, found they not a Church already established, to which they united themselves? He acknowledged it. Did you, went I on, find one in the whole World, to which you joined yourselves? Did you embrace the Greek, the Armenian, or the Ethiopian Church, when you forsook the Roman? Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches, and say to all that Church, to all that exterior Society, in which you are Minister, you were not yesterday? But, said Mr. Claude here, were we not of this Church? We went not out, we were driven out of it. We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent. Thus we went forth: But we carried the Church with us. What Discourse is this, Sir, said I to him? If you had not been driven out, would you have stayed in it? To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you, Go forth of Babylon, my People? Tell me sincerely, Would you have stayed in the Church, if she had not driven ye out? No sure, Sir, said Mr. Claude. To what purpose then, answered I, do you say here, That you were driven out? Because, said he, it is true. And well, Sir, proceeded I, it is true: This is common to you (be not displeased at what I am going to say) this is common to you with all Heretics. The Church, in which they received Baptism, cast them forth, Excommunicated them. They would perhaps have willingly stayed in it to corrupt and seduce; but the Church cut them off. And as to what you say, That you were in this Church, which cast you out, and that you carried the Church with you, what Heretic may not say as much? 'Twas not of Heathens, that the Ancient Heretics composed their Churches; 'twas of Christians bred in the Church. You also have not formed yours by amassing Mahometans; I agree it: But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Heretics, and they were all able to say as well as you, That they were condemned by their Adversaries. For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges, when their Novelty was condemned. But, Sir, replied Mr. Claude, we agree not this Novelty. What is in the Scripture, is not new. Patience, Sir, I beseech you, said I to him: None of the Ancient Heretics agreed the Novelty of their Doctrine; they all alleged the Holy Scripture for themselves: But there was one Novelty, which they could not deny; to wit, That the Body of their Church was not yesterday, and you granted it. And well, in fine, said Mr. Claude, if the Arians, if the Nestorians, if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom, they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding. To blame or not, said I to him, is not, Sir, the Bottom of the Question: But it still continues evident, That you have the same Proceeding with them, the same Conduct, the same Defences; in a word, That in forming your Church you have done, as all the Heretics did, and we do, what all the Orthodox have done. Every one may judge in his Conscience, which he had rather resemble, and I have no more to say. Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion, but told me, That this Argument was excellent in Favour of the Jews and Pagans, and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason, I made use of. Let us see, said I to him, Sir, and remember, that you promise us the same Argument. The same, answered he, without doubt: The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness; you know it: The Writings of Celsus, and so many others, are Proofs of it. I agree it, said I to him, and is this all? And 'twas true, proceeded he, That Christianity was new, if we regard it in the State immediately preceding. What, said I to him, when JESUS CHRIST began to preach, could they say to him, as I do to you, That in the Church, he was born in, there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming? What then was St. John Baptist, Anna the Prophetess, Simeon, the Wise Men, and the Priests consulted by Herod, when they answered him, That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem? Was there any one Moment, when CHRIST was not expected in the Church, where he was born; and so well expected, that the Jews expect him still? 'Tis very true, Sir, That there was a Necessity, this Novelty should once be seen to happen, and this Change by CHRIST, expected at CHRISTs Coming. But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new. Heb. xiii. v. 8. He is the same yesterday, to day, and for ever. 'Tis true; answered Mr. Claude, but the Synagogue agreed not, That JESUS was the CHRIST. But, replied I, The Synagogue condemned not St. John Baptist; but the Synagogue heard, without contradicting them, the Wise Men, Simeon, and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gathered in the Synagogue, the then true Church, the Children of GOD, which it contained. The Synagogue at last condemned him. But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church. He gave it its last Form presently after his Death, and the new People followed the old without any Interruption: These are undeniable Truths. And for what concerns Paganism, 'tis true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness. But what did the Christians answer? Did they not show, That the Jews always believed the same GOD, which the Christians adored, and expected the same CHRIST? That the Jews believed all this yesterday, and the day before, and always without Interruption? But, Sir, once again, said Mr. Claude, The Gentiles agreed not all this. What, answered I, was there amongst them any one so unreasonable, as to say, That there never were any Jews, or that this People expected not a CHRIST, and adored not one sole GOD, Creator of Heaven and Earth? Did not they show the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions, and the Date, I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments, but of their Gods themselves, and this by their own Histories, by their own Authors, and by their own Chronology? Do you believe, That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess, That the Christian Religion was new, or that there never was any Society, which had the same Belief, the Christians than had, as I make you own, That all the Heretics, which you and I acknowledge for such, came in this manner, and that you have done, as they did? See, Sir, how you prove, That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument, I use: None can ever do it, nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact, which I affirm, That we do, as all the Orthodox, and you, as all the Heretics have done. Here the Conversation ended. It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly. We heard one another peaceably: We spoke on both sides close enough; and except the beginning, where Mr. Claude a little enlarged his Discourse, in all the rest he came to the Matter, and presented himself to the Difficulty without Recoiling. 'Tis true, he aimed rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences, in which I engaged him, than to show, how he could himself get out: But in fine, all this proceeded from the Cause; and he assuredly said all, that his could furnish him with upon the Point, to which we had confined ourselves. For my part I cared not to go from it, since 'twas that which Mademoiselle de Duras desired to have cleared. She appeared to me touched: I nevertheless retired, trembling, and fearing, lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger, and the Truth in doubt. I Visited her the next day. III. The Sequel of the Conference. I was glad to see, she perfectly understood all, I had said. This is, what I had promised her. I had represented to her, That amidst the immense Difficulties, which the Spirit of Cavilling, and the Depth of the Christian Doctrine, had caused to spring up amongst men, GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concerned their Salvation; that this Means was the Church's Authority; that this means was easy to be established, easy to be understood, easy to be followed; so easy, said I, and so clear, that, if you shall not understand, what I shall say upon it, I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong. This in effect must be so, when the matter is well handled: But I durst not promise myself, that I had treated it, as I ought. I knew with joy and thanksgiving, that GOD had turned all to good. The Arguments, that aught to affect, affected her. She could not comprehend, how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe, he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Counsels, and all the rest of the Church. She saw as well as I, how weak the Example of the Synagogue was, when it condemned JESUS CHRIST, and how little reason there was to say, That the particular persons, who believed well, wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them, when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST, the greatest and most visible Authority, that can be imagined. I passed again over the Doubt, in which one must be touching the Scripture, if one doubted of the Church's Authority. She said, she never so much as thought, that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture; and besides she perfectly understood, that Mr. Claude, rejecting the Name of Doubt, acknowledged the Thing in other terms: Which served only to make appear, how hard this Matter was both to think and say, since being forced to own it, he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms. For in fine not to know, whether a thing be or no, if it be not to Doubt, is nothing. It appeared then clearly, That the two Propositions, which were in debate, were established: And I showed Mademoiselle de Duras in few words, That her Church, by believing two such strange Things, had changed the whole Order of instructing Gods' Children, practised at all times in the Christian Church. For this purpose I needed only repeat to her, what she had heard me say, and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant. GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express, and I said to her, as follows. The Order of instructing Gods' Children, is to teach them, before all things, the Apostles Creed: I believe in GOD the Father, and in JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the Remission of Sins, and the rest. As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father, and in his Son JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost, so much does he believe the Universal Church, where the Father, where the Son, where the Holy Ghost is adored. As much, I say, as he believes the Father, so much does he believe the Church, which makes Profession to believe, that GOD, the Father of JESUS CHRIST, has adopted Children, whom he has united to his Son. As much as he believes in the Son, so much does he believe the Church, which he has assembled by his Blood, which he has established by his Doctrine, which he has founded on the Rock, and against which, he has promised, that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost, so much does he believe that Church, to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher. And he, that says, I believe in GOD, and in JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost, Rom. X. v. 10. when he says, I believe, confesses: With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness, and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation, as St. Paul says, and he knows, that the Faith, he has, is not a private Sentiment. There is a Church, a Society of Men, which believes, as he does: 'Tis the Universal Church, which is neither here, nor there, neither at this time, nor at another. She is not confined to one only Country, like the ancient Judaical Church; nor is she to end, as that was; Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People, as 'tis written in Daniel. She is at all times, and in all places, and so dispersed, that whoever will come to her, may. She has no Interruption in her Succession, for there is not any time, when one cannot say, I believe the Universal Church: As there is not any time, but one may say, I believe in GOD the Father, and in his Son, and in the Holy Ghost. This Church is Holy, because all, she teaches, is holy; because she teaches all the Doctrine, which makes Saints, that is, all the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST; because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity. And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit: They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church; and this is meant by the Communion of Saints. In this Universal Church, in this Communion of Saints, is the Remission of Sins. There is Baptism, by which Sins are remitted; there is the Ministry of the Keys, by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth, Matt. xuj. v. 19 John xx. v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven. Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministry, which lasts as long as the Church, that is to say, always, since this Church is believed at all times, not as a thing, which has been, or must be, but as a thing, which actually is. See then, to what this Church is joined, and what is joined to this Church. She is joined immediately to the Holy Ghost, which governs her: I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic Church. To this Church is joined the Communion of Saints, the Remission of Sins, the Resurrection of the Flesh, eternal Life. Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints, nor Remission of Sins, nor Resurrection to eternal Life. Behold the Faith of the Church established in the Creed. It makes no mention of the Scripture. Is it, because it despises it? GOD forbidden. You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church; and because you never doubted of the Church, you shall never doubt of the Scripture, which the Church has received from GOD, from JESUS CHRIST, and from the Apostles; which she always keeps, as coming from that Source, which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful. Methought, this Doctrine, truly Holy and Apostolical, wrought the Effect, it ought to work: But there is, said I, one Word more. 'Tis what I said to Mr. Claude, and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument, which every one may equally understand, I mean, the Learned as the Ignorant, and the private Person as the Pastor: The baptised Christian, before he reads the holy Scripture, can either make this Act of Faith, I believe, that this Word is inspired by GOD, as I believe that GOD is, or he cannot. If he cannot, he than doubts of it; he is reduced to examine, whether the Gospel is not a Fable: But if he can make it, by what means shall he do it? The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart. This is no Answer; for it is agreed, That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost. The Question is concerning the exterior Means, which the Holy Ghost uses, and there can be no other but the Church's Authority. Thus every Christian receives from the Church, without examining, this Scripture; as a Writing inspired by GOD. Let us go a little farther. Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper, the Bark of the Word, the Body of the Letter? No, without doubt, she gives us the Spirit, that is, the Sense of the Scripture: For to give us the Scripture without the Sense, is to give us a Body without a Soul, a Letter, which kills. The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation, the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense, is a Knife to cut our Throats. The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood; so did the Nestorian; so did the Pelagian. GOD forbidden then, That the Church should give us only the Scripture, without giving us the Sense of it. She received them both together. When she received the Gospel of St. Matthew, and the Epistle to the Romans, and the rest, she understood them: This Sense, which she received with the Scripture, she has kept with the Scripture; and the same exterior Means, which the Holy Ghost uses, to make us receive the Holy Scripture, he uses also to give us its true Sense. All this comes from the same Principle; all this is the Sequel of the same Design. As then there is nothing to examine after the Church, when she gives us the Holy Scripture; so there is nothing to examine, when she interprets it, and proposes its true Sense. Wherefore you see, that after the Council of Jerusalem, Paul and Silas, said not, Examine this Decree; but they taught the Church to observe, what the Apostles had judged. In this manner has the Church always proceeded. I would not believe the Gospel, says St. Augustin, were I not moved by the Authority of the Catholic Church. Ep. 5. Cont. Manich. And a little after: Those, whom I believed, when they said to me, Believe the Gospel, shall I not believe, when they bid me not believe Manicheus. This Society of Pastors, established by JESUS CHRIST, and continued until now, giving me the Gospel, has also told me, That I must detest Heretics and evil Doctrines; I believe both together, and by the same Authority. After this manner were Christians instructed in the primitive Times, Tertull. praescrip. adv. haeret. 18. 37. in which Heretics were told, That they were not receivable to dispute of the Scripture, because without Scripture they could be shown, that Scripture is not for them; that there is nothing common between them and Scripture. And observe, if you please, That all Christian Societies, except the Churches newly reformed, have kept this manner of Instructing, Mr. Claude and I said, That the Greek Church, the Ethiopian, the Armenian, and others, were deceived indeed in believing themselves the true Church; but all at least believe, That there is nothing to examine after the true Church. There is no other manner of teaching the Faithful. If we tell them, That they may understand the Holy Scripture better, than all the rest of the Church together, we nourish Pride, we take away Docility. None says it, but the Churches, which call themselves Reform. Every where else they say, as we do, That there is a true Church, which must be believed without examining after her. This is believed not only in the true Church, but also in those, which imitate the true Church. The Pretended Reform is the only Church, which says it not. If the true Church, which soever she is, says it; the Pretended Reform is not then the true Church, because she says it not. Let them not tell us: The Ethiopian says it, the Greek says it, the Armenian says it, the Roman says it; which shall I believe? If your Doubt consisted in choosing between the Roman and the Greek, 'twould be necessary to enter into this Examen. But now 'tis agreed in your Religion, That the Greek Church, the Ethiopian Church, and the rest, are in the wrong against the Roman; and if they were true Churches, you ought, in leaving the Roman, which, as you say, was not, to have sought Communion with them. They are not then the true Church. No more are you: For the true Church believes, That we must believe without examining, what the true Church teaches. You teach the contrary. You call yourselves the true Church, and you say at the same time, That one must examine after you: Which is to say, That one may be damned in believing you. You renounce then from that time the Advantage of the true Church. You are not the true Church: You must be left: 'Tis here the Beginning must be. If any one in leaving you be tempted to unite himself to the Greek Church, he shall be answered. Mademoiselle de Duras having heard these things, nothing seemed to me capable to trouble her, but the Habit contracted from her Infancy, and the fear of afflicting her Mother, for whom, I knew, she had all the Tenderness, and all the Respect, that such a Mother deserves. I also saw, she was concerned for the Reproaches, that were made her, of having human Designs, and especially of having delayed the doubting of her Religion, till after a Donation, made her by her Mother. Your own Conscience, said I to her, best knows, in what Condition you were, when this Donation was made you; whether you had any Doubt, and suppressed it in prospect of procuring yourself this Advantage. I did not so much as think of it, answered she. You know well then, said I to her, That this Motive has not any part, in what you do. Continue therefore in Peace; provide for your Salvation, and let Men talk: For this Apprehension of having human Respects imputed to you, is itself a sort of human Respect, and that of the most delicate and most to be feared. She requested me to repeat in Mr. Coton's Presence, what had been said, through a Desire, she had, that he should be Instructed with her. He was sent for; we agreed on the Facts. Mr. Coton with an extreme Sweetness made me some Objections about the Doctrine, I had explicated. I answered them. He told me, he was not exercised in Dispute, nor versed in these Matters. He said true; he referred himself to Mr. Claude. I prayed GOD to enlighten him, and departed to return to my Duty. After another Conference, which Mademoiselle de Duras and I had at St. german in the Duchess of Richelieu's Apartment, she told me, That she believed herself in condition to take her Resolution within a little while, and that there was nothing more to do, But to pray GOD to conduct her well. The Success was such, as we wished. On the 22. of March I returned to Paris to receive her Abjuration. She made it in the Church of the Reverend Fathers of the Christian Doctrine. The Exhortation, I made her, tended only to represent to her, That she was returning into the Church, which her Fathers had forsaken; That she would not henceforth believe herself more capable than the Church, more illuminated than the Church, and fuller of the Holy Ghost than the Church; That she would receive from the Church, without examining, the true Sense of the Scripture, as she received from her the Scripture itself; That she was henceforth going to build upon the Rock; and that her Faith must fructify in good Works. She felt the Consolation of the Holy Ghost, and the Assistance was edified by her good Example. The End of the Conference. REFLECTIONS ON A Writing OF Mr. CLAUDE'S REFLECTIONS On a WRITING of MR. CLAUDE ' S YOU have seen in the Advertisement, which is at the Beginning of this Book, That, after Mr. Claude had read my Recital, he made an Answer to the Instruction, I had given Mademoiselle de Daras, joining to it a Relation of our Conference, which he had drawn up, as he affirms in that Writing, the next day after ou● Meeting. I received from several Places, and even from the remotest Provinces, this Writing of Mr. Claude's with his Relation: but the perfectest and most correct Copy, I have seen, was communicated to me by the Duke of Cheoreuse, who had it from a Lady of Quality of the Pretended Reformed Religion. I have seen also in the same Duke's hands a Declaration, signed by Mr. Claude, in which he owns all the Writing; so that it cannot be doubted, but 'tis his. I find many things in this Writing, which manifestly confirm all, that is read in mine. I pretend not to repeat here all these things, nor answer to those, in which Mr. Claude appears to me, through the weakness of his Cause, as little to agree with himself, as with us. To make such Remarks, a Writing must be in the Hands of all People, so that every one may see, whether the Passages are truly related, and the Sense and Consequence well taken; in a word, it must be public. It shall be so, when Mr. Claude pleases. In the mean time, I will make some Reflections on things, about which I think he cannot disagree, and which may very much assist the Pretended Reformed to take a good Resolution upon the Matter, we have treated. The First REFLECTION On M. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reform. MY First Reflection is upon the Answer, made by Mr. Claude, to the Acts, extracted out of the Discipline of his Churches. I made use of these Acts to show, That 'twas so necessary for all private persons to submit in Matters of Faith to the Churches infallible Authority; That the Pretended Reformed, who rejected it in speculation, were at the same time forced to acknowledge it in Practice. What is most pressing in these Acts, is, That to the National Synod alone, excluding Consistories, Colloquies, and Provincial Synods, is attributed the last and final Resolution by GOD'S Word. Discip. ch. 5. Art. 31. vid. sup. p. 13. Discip. ch. 9 Art, 3. Observe. p. 144. vid. sup. p. 13. But because this is the last and final Resolution, the Churches and Provinces, sending Deputies to this Synod, swear solemnly to submit to whatever shall be concluded in that Assembly, being persuaded, that GOD will preside in it by his holy Spirit and his Word. Thus because they believe an entire Submission, due to this supreme Sentence, when it shall be pronounced, they swear to it, even before 'tis given; 'tis to act consequentially. But if after a Promise, confirmed by so solemn an Oath, they pretend, a Liberty is still left them to examine, I confess, I know not, what Words signify, and there never was any mental Evasion, so full of Illusion and Equivocation. It may well be believed without my telling it, That the Ministers find themselves pressed by so clear an Argument: In such Occasions, where the Truth is discovered with so much evidence, the more one perceives the Difficulty, the more also one finds himself embarrassed. So there is nothing more visible than the Perplexity, which appears in Mr. Claude's Answer; I say even in his Answer, such, as himself sets it down in his own Relation. He is reduced to say, That they make this Oath, because one ought to presume well of such an Assembly; and moreover, That these Words, We 〈◊〉 to submit to your Assembly, being persuaded, that God will preside in it, include a Condition, without which the Promise, thus sworn, has not its Effect. This is all, 1 Repl. p. 344. Chap. 35. p. 192. Nog. 2. p. ch. 23. p. 447. p. 298. Preserv. art. 15. p. 286. that can be answered. The Anonymus, who dedicated his Book to Mr. Conrare, first made me this Answer. Another Anonymus, whose Book is Entitled The Disguisement unmask, made it after him. Mr. Noguier and Mr. the Bruyes, other Authors, that answered the Exposition, had only this to say. Mr. Jurieux stuck to this Answer in his Preservative, only explicating more plainly than the rest, That all this Persuasion, which serves for a Ground to the Oath, is a Clause of Civility, the Terms whereof must not be abused. Mr. Claude had no other Reply, and this is the only one, which still appears in his Relation. Thus this so serious and solemn an Oath of all our Reformed and their Churches in a Body to their National Synod is reduced to this Proposition, which would be in the bottom but an insignificant Compliment: We swear before GOD to submit to all, that you shall decide, if you decide by his Word, as we hope and presume, you will. But why then is not this great Oath pronounced in these Terms, but that they well saw, to reduce it to these Terms, would be to say nothing, and they would say, or at least seem to say something? For my part, the more I consider, what is said in the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed concerning this Oath of the Churches, the farther I find it from the sense, they would give it. I find first, as I have observed in the Conference, That this Oath is made only for the National Synod, that is, for the Synod, in which the last and final Resolution is to be made by Gods' Word; and the National Synod of Castres' has declared, That there should not be used in the Letters of Mission, Disc. ch. 9 Art. 3. Obs. p. 144. brought by the Deputies of particular Churches to the Colloquies and Provincial Synods SUCH ABSOLUTE Clauses of Submission, as are inserted in the Letters of the Provinces to the National Synod. Why; but only to show the Difference, there is between the last Decision, and all the rest? I effect, when I sought in what this Difference consisted, I found another sort of Submission for the Colloquies and Provincial Synods. 'Tis, that those, who are accused to alter the sound Doctrine, Disc. ch. 8. Art. 3. are antecedently obliged to make an express Promise not to seminate any of their Opinions before the meeting of the Colloquy or the Provincial Synod. 'Tis a Rule of Discipline and Policy. But when they come to the Synod, in which this last and final Resolution is to be made, the particular persons indeed reiterate the same Promise; but they stop not there, the Churches in Body add this great Oath of submitting entirely to the Decision, being persuaded, that GOD himself will be the Author of it. A bare human Presumption, as Mr. Claude calls it, a Clause of Civility, as Mr. Jurieux styles it, cannot be the matter and foundation of an Oath: we also see, That not only private persons, but also Consistories and whole Provinces, perceived in this Oath something stronger, than they will at present let us understand in it, insomuch that they made a great Resistance against it, which could not be vanquished but by a long time, and the reiterated Decrees of National Synods. I see this Resistance continue till the year 1631. In this year and before I find almost continually in the National Synods whole Provinces censured, because their Deputation, or, as they term it, their Envoy had not this Clause of Submission. The Churches were difficultly brought to make an Oath, so little agreeable to the Doctrine, they were inspired with, and to swear, against the Principles of the new Reformation, such a Submission to an Assembly, which after all, whatever Name might be given it, was but an Assembly of Men, still (according to their Principles) liable to mistake: but they must pass through it. They said, they did nothing, if they did not at last oblige men to an absolute Submission; and that to leave them liberty to examine after the last and final Resolution, was to nourish Pride, Dissension, and Schism. Thus, against the Principles of the new Reformation, were they fain to give other Ideas, and 'twas resolved to stick unalterably to the Submission and Oath in the Terms, we have observed. The Reason, used by the Synod of Rochel to oblige the Provinces to this Clause of Submission to such things, as should be resolved in the National Synod, is, That 'twas necessary to the Validity of the Assemblies Conclusions. In the general to render the Acts of an Assembly valid, 'twould be sufficient for those, of whom it should be composed, to have a Power of bringing to it the Suffrages of those, that send them; and the Deputies as well of the Colloquies, as of the Provincial Synods came always furnished with such Powers. But there was something more strong required for the National Synod; and since the last Resolution was to be made, to render such an Act valid, and give it all its force, 'twas thought necessary it should be preceded by a Submission as absolute, as the Resolution ought to appear irrevocable. To this Decision of the Synod of Rochel that of Tonneins added, Ibid. That the Submission should be promised in proper terms to all, that should be concluded, and decreed WITHOUT CONDITION AND MODIFICATION. Now, this is nothing but a Clause of Civility, and a conditional Promise, that might be made, if they would, not only to the Provincial Synods, to the Colloquy, and Consistory, but also to every particular Minister. Nevertheless they neither make it to these particular Ministers, nor to this Consistory, nor to these Colloquies, nor to these Provincial Synods: why so, but to reserve something peculiar and proper to the Assembly, where the final Resolution is to be made, after which there remains nothing but to obey? But if all, that is here particular and proper, be at the bottom only Words, was this worth employing the Churches of the new Reformation, and five or six of their National Synods? This is, what they ought to explicate, if they would say any thing: yet they speak not one word of it, though this Difficulty flies, as one may say, in their faces, and that I have started it expressly. In fine, To reduce my Argument in few words, every Oath ought to be founded on a certain and known Truth. Now this Promise made to the National Synod, and confirmed by the solemn Oath of all the Pretended Reformed Churches, We swear and promise to follow your Decisions, being persuaded, that you will judge well; this Promise, I say, which way soever it be turned, has no Certainty, but in one of these two Senses. The first; We swear and promise to follow your Decisions, if we find, you judge well: a thing indeed very certain, but at the same time illusory, since there is no person on the earth, to whom one may not say as much; and as I observed in the Conference, Mr. Claude may say it to me, as well as I to him. The Second, We are so persuaded, you will judge well, that we swear and promise to follow your Decisions; in which Case the Oath is false, if we are not throughly assured, that the Assembly, 'tis made to, cannot judge amiss. All, the Pretended Reformed have now to do, is to choose, which they will of these two Senses, one of which is a manifest Illusion, and the other, which seems also the only natural Sense, clearly supposes the Church's Infallibility. Nor must they answer here, That this Submission respects only public Order and Discipline; for in matter of Faith a Decision obliges to nothing less, than what the Apostle St. Paul says, Rom. 10. 10. To believe with the Heart, and confess with the Mouth. And our Reformed themselves understand it so, when they declare in their Discipline, That the Effect of this their National Synods last and final Decision is, Vid. sup. p. 13. That it may be acquiesced in from point to point with an express disowning of the contrary Doctrine. He then, who swears to submit to a Decision, that shall be made in an Assembly, swears to believe with his Heart, and confess with his Mouth the Doctrine which shall be there decided. But for the making this Promise, and confirming it with an Oath, 'tis requisite, the Assembly, 'tis made to, should have a Divine Promise of being assisted by the Holy Ghost, which is, That it should be infallible. Mr. Claude insinuated in the Conference, That there was in effect a Divine Promise, That those, who sought, should find; and that the Oath of his Churches might have its foundation in this Assurance. But he will never by this Answer get out of the Difficulty, he is in. For to render the Oath conformable to the Promise, it must be conditional, as the Promise is: and as JESUS CHRIST said, If you search well, you shall find, the sense of the Oath should also be, If you do your Duty, we will believe you; which would be to fall again into the pitiful Illusion, we have rejected. To the end then the Oath, we treat of, may be made without rashness, it must be founded on an absolute Promise from GOD, on a Promise, which secures us even against the Infidelities of men, such as JESUS CHRIST makes his Church, when he indefinitely and absolutely assures her, Mat. 16. v. 18. That the 〈◊〉 of Hell shall not prevail against her. As long as our Reformed shall persist in denying, That the Authority of the Church's Decisions is founded on this Promise, their Oath will be always an Illusion, or a manifest Rashness; and they will find themselves forced either to defer more, than they are willing, to the Church's Authority, or to acknowledge, That they have by magnificent words imposed on the People's Credulity: since that after having distinguished the Churches last Decision from all the rest by so remarkable a Character, and so particular a Protestation of Submission, 'twill be found in the bottom, That this Submission, confirmed by so singular an Oath, is of no other Nature or Kind, than what is naturally due to all Ecclesiastical Assemblies, and every lawful Pastor; that is, one may always proceed from it to new Doubts, and still examine, after the last Resolution, as after all the rest. 'Tis thus indeed according to the Principles of the new Reformation; but the Principles of the new Reformation have not been able to change the necessary Condition of Humani●●, which, for the hindering Divisions, and quieting men's Min●●, requires a final Decision, independent of all new Examination, either General or Particular. The Christian Church is not exempt from this Law; and the more regular she is, the more her Constitution depends on an entire Submission of Mind, the more need she has of such an Authority. Wherefore from the very beginning of Christianity, GOD himself has put into the Hearts of all true Christians, That they must no longer search nor examine, after the Church has determined. This inviolable Tradition has wrought its Effect in our Reformed, maugre their Principles. Nor do I wonder at it. Re●. de 〈◊〉 S. 29. St. Basil very wisely and very truly said, That Tradition made men speak more than they would, and inspired into them things, contrary to their Sentiments. And if our Reformed will not owe to Tradition this last and final Resolution, and this Submission so solemnly sworn: 'tis then Necessity and Experience, that has forced them to it; 'tis because there must an End be put to the Doubts and Examinations of private persons by an absolute Authority, if they will have Peace, and uphold Humility; 'tis that if they neither have, nor exercise this Authority, they must make a show of having and exercising it, and at least give the Idea of it; 'tis in a word, because one may indeed discourse and answer Arguments by Words, but the natural Ignorance, Infirmity, and Pride of Man's Mind requires other Remedies. The Second REFLECTION On one of the Propositions acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference, and on the Examen, he prescribes after the Judgement of the Church. I Pretended to show is the Conference, That by denying the Churches infallible Authority, one falls into these two Inconveniences; and I said not into one of the two, but inevitably into both of them. The first is, That every particular person, how ignorant soever he may be, is obliged to believe, That he may understand Gods' Word better than the most universal Synods, and all the rest of the Church together. The second, That there is a time, when a Baptised Christian is not in condition to make an Act of Faith upon the Holy Scripture; but that, whether he will or no, he shall find himself obliged to doubt, whether it be inspired by GOD. I have not seen any of the Pretended Reformed, in whom these two Propositions have not caused an horror, and who has not told me, he should be so far from ever believing them himself, that he should detest those, which did. Let us see then, how it continues fixed by the Conference, that they are Consequences of the Pretended Reformeds' Doctrine, and such manifest Consequences, that they are owned by the Ministers. And indeed, not to departed from Mr. Claude's Relation, he himself asserts in it: That after all Ecclesiastical Assemblies every particular Person ought to 〈◊〉 whether they have well understood Gods' Word, or no When he had spoken of human Interests, which often, is he said, 〈◊〉 the Truth in the most authentical and most universal Assemblies of the Church: For to destroy this Answer, and show, that 'twas in the bottom nothing but a Civil, I 〈◊〉 him, whether all passing in Order, and without the appearance of any human Interest in the Deliberation, every private Person must not yet examine. He acknowledged, he must; and 〈◊〉 it still in his own Relation, maintaining, That there is not any Absurdity; nor any Pride in a private Persons 〈◊〉 that he may understand Gods' Word better than all Ecclesiastical Assemblies, what good Order soever is kept in them, and of whatsoever Persons they 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 This Proposition and Doctrine will appear 〈◊〉 to every docible Spirit. But to the end the thing may be 〈…〉 let us make Application of this Doctrine in a particular Example. The Calvinistical Church since these 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 years from her first beginning to be established, has not held any Assembly more 〈…〉 more 〈◊〉 than the Syno● of D●rt. Besides all the Churches of the 〈…〉, all the rest of the same Belief, that of England, that of 〈◊〉, those of the 〈◊〉 those of 〈◊〉 those of Switzerland, that of 〈◊〉 and the ●est of the Germane Language, were there by their Deputies, and received it; and to the end nothing might be wanting to it, if the 〈…〉 Church's of this Realm were hindered from 〈…〉 at it, they adopted all its Doctrine in the National Synod of 〈◊〉 1631. where all the Articles of 〈…〉 and sworn to by the whole Synod, and afterwards by allthe Provinces and all the particular Churches Since that time none of the Pretended Reformed 〈◊〉 this Synod. The 〈◊〉 alone, who were there 〈…〉 blame is Doctrine, and relate the Cabals and the Share, Policy and the Interests of the House of 〈◊〉 had in it. All also have yielded; and if there be any thing, that can be said 〈◊〉 have been received with an unanimous Confe●● by all the Churches of the Pretended Reformation, 'tis without doubt the 〈◊〉 of this Synod. And nevertheless I will 〈…〉, Whether any private Person whatever of his Church may rely upon an Authority, so great amongst them, as this is, without examining any farther, if he be pressed to Answer positively Yea or No to so precise a Question, and in a Fact so well circumstantiated, he must say No, and that in fine, notwithstanding all this, they were but men, how able, how illummated, how holy soever they are imagined, still subject to fail, whose Sentiments, if one should follow blindfold and without examining, he would equal men to GOD. Thus, according to the Maxims of the new Reformation, every private Person, even to the most ignorant women, aught to believe, that they can understand the holy Scripture better than an Assembly, composed of whatever is greatest in that whole Church, which he acknowledges to be the only one, where GOD is purely served; and not only better than this Assembly, but than all the rest of the Church, and than all, that he knows in the whole Universe. This is, what Mr. Claude has acknowledged to me; This is in Substance, what he still says in his own Relation; and this is, what every Minister, whether he will or no, shall own in a Conference in the presence of any one, that shall desire it, unless he obstinately resolves not to answer positively: In which case he will be seen to shuffle, and this Tergiversation will be stronger than an Acknowledgement, since 'twill not only show, that the Acknowledgement is inevitable, but 'twill also make appear, that he is sensible of its pernicious Consequences. And what I say of the Synod of Dort, Mr. Claude and every other Minister will be forced to say of the Council of Nice, of the Council of Constantinople, of that of Ephesus, of that of Chalcedon, and the rest, which they and we receive with common accord: And when they shall say it, they will say nothing new, or unusual in their Religion. Calvin said it in formal terms, when speaking in general of all the Councils of the precedent Ages, 4. Instit. c. 9 he writ these words: I pretend not in this place, that all the Councils must be condemned, and all their Decrees vacated. Nevertheless, proceeded he, you will object to me, that I so order them, as to permit every one indifferently to receive or reject, what the Councils should have established; by no means, that's none of my Intent. You would say, ●he were very far from it. The Majesty of Councils, and the Authority of so great a Name, moves him at first; but the Consequence of his Doctrine makes him soon forget, what he seemed willing to say to their advantage: For see, how he concludes. When, says he, the Authority of a Council is alleged, I desire first, it be considered, in what time, and for what cause it was assembled, and what Persons assisted at it; afterwards, that the principal Point be examined according to the Rule of the Scripture, so that the Councils Definition have its weight, and be as a Prejudice, but that it hinder not the Examination. This is, what all this careful Enquiry after Time, Matter, and Persons, in fine terminates in, to wit, That at what Time soever a Council is held, what Matter soever is there treated, and or what Persons soever 'tis composed, every one indifferently, for that was the Question, should examine the principal Point by Gods' Word, and believe, he can understand that Divine Word better than all the Councils. See, how far these Gentlemen p●sh the Examen: They drive it yet much farther, since they will have one examine after the Apostles. This is not a Consequence, which I draw from their Doctrine: 'Tis their own very Proposition and Doctrine in formal Terms, and particularly that of Mr. Claude. For upon what I saith in the Exposition, Exp. Ar●. 19 that after the Council of Jerusalem, Act. XV. v. 18. and the Decision of the Apostles, where they said: It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, now had any thing more to examine, and that in effect Pa●l and Barnabas with Silas, as 'tis written in the Acts, Act. XVI. v. 4. went through the Churches, teaching them, not to examine, what the Apostles had done, but to keep the Decrees, they had ordained: Because I concluded thence, That they gave the Form to all following Ages, and taught us, how in all times the Faithful aught to submit to the Church's Decisions without examining; after several Answers, but all frivolous, they were fain at last to answer me clearly, That one ought yet to examine after the Council of the Apostles. 'Tis the 〈◊〉, 'tis the first, that answered the Exposition, who writ in these terms: We do not see, that the Apostles published their Decision with an absolute Order, it should ' be obeyed: but they sent Paul, Barnabas, and Sila● for to instruct the Faithful to keep this Ordinance, that is evidently, to persuade them the Motives and Grounds of it, which says not, that they were forbid to examen. This is, what the Anonymus says: The Place is remarkable: you will find it in the Nineteenth Article of the first Answer, in the fourth and last Observation he makes on the Council of the Apostles, Page the 328 th'. This is not a particular Sentiment of this Authors, since there is placed in the Front of his Book the Approbation of four Ministers of Charenton, of which Mr. Claude is one, to the end he may not say, I charge him with a strange Doctrine in imputing to him that of this Ano●●mus. Thus 'tis not the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, 'tis the Faithful, the Christian Churches, that aught to examine after the Apostles; and after the Apostles assembled, and after they have pronounced, It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us: And this prodigious Doctrine is taught in a Church, which vau●●● of hearing nothing, but the pure Words of the Apostles, See, whither the Ministers and the Pretended Reformed, and particularly Mr. Claude, are forced by their Belief to carry the necessity of the Examen. There was nothing left, but to say, we must yet examine after JESUS CHRIST, and that with all his Miracles, and all the Authority, given him by his Father, he had not enough to oblige men to follow him on his Word, and without examining: Mr. Claude said it in our Conference, and says it again in his Relation. I desire the prudent Reader to believe, that in a Matter of this importance, I will neither impose upon him, nor exaggerate: Let him follow me only with attention, and he shall see the Truth plainly appear. You have seen, how I objected in the Conference, That unless there were acknowledged a living and speaking Authority, to which every particular Person is obliged to submit without examining, private Persons would be brought to the Presumption of believing, they could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils together, and than all the rest of the Church. To prove, that in this there was not any thing so presumptuous, or absurd, Mr. Claude answered me, that in the time when JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth, the Case had happened, when a private Person ought to raise his own Judgement above that of the Synagogue assembled, which condemned JESUS CHRIST: That this was so far from being a Sentiment of Pride, that 'twas the Act of a perfect Faith. This Answer, I confess, struck an Horror in me: For, to make it good, one must say, That in the time, when the Synagogue judged JESUS CHRIST, and he himself was on the Earth, there was not upon Earth any living and speaking Authority, to which Men were obliged to submit without examining: So that one ought to examine after JESUS CHRIST, it not being permitted to believe him on his Word. I made this Answer to Mr. Claude, and showed him, That they were then so far from a necessity of every ones determining himself by a particular Examen, and setting himself above every living and speaking. Authority, that there was at that time one, the greatest, which ever was or could be, to wit, That of JESUS CHRIST, and of the Truth itself; to whom the Father publicly bare Witness by a Voice from Heaven, by the greatest and most visible Miracles, that were ever wrought, and in fine, by the most resplendent, as well as the most certain Means, the Divine Omnipotence could make use of. If I observe in the Conference, there was no Answer to this Argument, 'tis very apparent, that in effect there ought to be none. Mr. Claude nevertheless in his Relation says, he answered me, That JESUS CHRISTs Miracles made one of the Matters in Question; That there were false Miracles, which Moses in Deuteronomy advised the Israelites to take heed of; That the Synagogue had judged JESUS CHRISTs Miracles to be done in the Name of Beelze●ub; That in fine an Authority decides nothing, till it be first received, and that JESUS CHRIST's was not so as yet, since 'twas in dispute, whether they should receive it, or reject it. I am obliged to observe, That assuredly I heard nothing of all this in the Conference; and you will soon see, that it were indeed better to be silent, than to say such things. But since Mr. Claude will have said them, he must then also say, that, because JESUS CHRISTs Miracles were rejected as deceitful Signs by the Envious, by the Obstinate, in one word by the declared Enemies of the Truth, These Miracles were not convincing enough to oblige Men to believe JESUS CHRIST on his Word without examining farther; and that, for Example, after he had raised Lazarus in express Testimony, John xi. v. 42. That GOD had sent him, those, who beheld, with their Eyes so great a Miracle, were, I do not say permitted, but expressly obliged to examine, whether JESUS CHRIST was sent by GOD. He must, I say, carry the necessity of the Examen to this excess: Otherwise 'twill be true, as I have said, That there was then a visible and palpable Authority, to which every one ought to submit without examining; so that there was never any time, when Men were less exposed to the Temptation of Pride by elevating themselves above all living and speaking Authority, since JESUS CHRIST, the most living and most speaking, as well as the greatest and most infallible, that ever was, was then on the Earth, and that they preferred not themselves before the Synagogue but by submitting to JESUS CHRIST, whose Miracles, as himself said, took away all Excuse from those, John. xv. v. 22, 23, 24. that believed not in him: Which the Assembly, that condemned him, knew so well, that they found no other Answer to his Miracles, nor any other Means to resist him, but to make him away, and with him Lazarus also, John xi. v. 47. & xii. v. 10. to stifle, if they could, at once with the Miracles, they had seen, the Memory of him, that wrought them. They must not then here think to dazzle People with frivolous Answers, and make the Readers lose the Consequence of an Argument by bringing in unprofitable Questions. I mean, That 'tis to no Purpose to start up here the Question concerning deceitful Signs, nor to answer, That the Synagogue doubted of the Truth of JESUS CHRIST's Miracles. The Question is only to know, whether this Doubt was not the Effect of an evident Malice, and in fine, whether it be not certain amongst Christians, That there was in JESUS CHRIST's Miracles so full a Demonstration of the Divine Power, and so clear a Confirmation of JESUS CHRIST's Mission, that every reasonable Spirit was obliged to yield without any farther Examination, so that there was then a living and speaking Authority, to which there was nothing to be opposed, but a gross Ignorance, and a manifest Obstinacy. This is the matter in Debate, and if after this Explication of the Question, they think still to escape by saying with Mr. Claude, That JESUS CHRIST's Authority was not received, they must go farther, John viij. v. 13. and say to JESUS CHRIST himself with the Jews: Thou bearest Record of thyself, thy Record is not true. Then we will answer with JESUS CHRIST: John viij. v. 13, 14, 16, 18. John v. v. 36. Tho' I bear Record of myself, yet my Record is true. And again: I am not alone, but my Father, that sent me, bears also Witness of me. And again: The Works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same Works that I do, bear Witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And in fine: C. xv. v. 22, 24. They have no Cloak for their Sin: If I had not done among them the Works which none other Man did, they had not had Sin: but now they have both seen, and hated both me and my Father. The meaning of this is, That the Miracles are clear, the Authority is incontestable, and the Resistance can have no other Ground but a blind Hatred. I expect, they will yet answer me, That JESUS CHRIST added after all this: John v. v. 39 Search the Scriptures, they are they which testify of me; and that they will dare to conclude from thence, how one might and ought to examine after JESUS CHRIST, so that the Word, he pronounced, shows us not a superabundance of Conviction in the Scripture, but an insufficiency of Authority in the Person of JESUS CHRIST. If they make yet this Objection, we have nothing to do, but to hold our Peace, and leave JESUS CHRIST to defend his own Cause. In the mean time we will conclude, That 'tis JESUS CHRISTs Authority, which we revere in his Church. If we say, the Church must be believed without examining, 'tis because JESUS CHRIST, who teaches and guides her, is above all Examen. We will not forbear to say also in imitation of JESUS CHRIST, Search the Scriptures: We shall confound them by this Scripture, which they say, they believe, and we shall see them also faint under this Examination, but it shall be, after we have forced them to acknowledge, that we must submit, without examining, to the Church's Authority, in which that Spirit, whom JESUS CHRIST has sent to keep his place, always speaks. There is then nothing less to the Purpose than the Example of the Synagogue, and our Pretended Reformed, deprived of this Example, which was their chiefest Strength, continue alone to believe themselves, every one in particular, capable to understand the holy Scripture better than whatsoever in the Universe has Authority to interpret it, and to judge of Doctrine, and than all the Faithful, that appear to them in the Worled: Which is the Error of the Independents, or something worse. They will say, That this private Person, who examines after the Church, shall always be well assured not to be alone in his Sentiment, since there will always remain some secret elected one, who will think, as he does: As if, without refuting this Vision, it were not a Pride detestable enough to set himself alone above all, that is seen and heard to speak in the whole Church besides. They will say again: 'Tis no Pride to believe one's self enlightened by the Holy Ghost. But on the contrary, 'tis the height of Pride, That particular Persons should dare to believe, the Holy Ghost will instruct them, and leave in Error all the Faithful, that appear in the rest of the Church. Nor is it to any purpose to answer, as Mr. Claude does in his Relation, John iii. v. 8. in his Relation, That the Spirit bloweth, where he will: For they must show, that this Spirit which reposes on the Humble, ceases not to breath on those, who believe themselves alone more capable to understand the Scripture, than all the rest of the Church, since they examine after her; and not only to breath upon them, but himself also to inspire into them this proud Thought. But in fine, however it is, and without disputing any farther, since this is no place for it, we have shown, that 'tis a Doctrine acknowledged in the new Reformation, That every particular Person ought to examine after the Church, and consequently aught to believe, That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies. Those, that abhor this Presumption, or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity, have no more to do, but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that, in which so prodigious a Doctrine is professed. The Third REFLECTION, On another Proposition, acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference: An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians; and, That the Churches infallible ●●thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture. THE second Absurdity, I promised to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow, is, That unless there be acknowledged in the Church an Authority, after which there must be no more examining nor doubting, there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time, in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture, and in which consequently he must doubt, whether it be true or false. I assigned for this Point of Doubt all the time, in which a Christian, for what cause soever, has not read the Holy Scripture. Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition; and I persist to say, That he not only owned it in the Conference, but also that, in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things, he has not been able to do it so well, but that he still confesses it in the Relation. In truth, this is one of the Places, in which I least remember our exact Words. But there is still enough to convince him, since if this Relation becomes public, every one will see, he here acknowledges in formal Terms, That he, who has not yet read the Holy Scripture, believes it to be Gods' Word with human Faith, because his Father told him so, which is the State of a Catechumen; and when he has himself read this Book, and felt the Efficacy of it, he believes it to be Gods' Word, no longer with an human Faith, because his Father told him so, but with a divine Faith, because he has himself immediately felt its Divinity, and this is the State of a Believer. 'Tis then true, that he has acknowledged the Time, I undertook to show, when a Baptised Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture, since he believes it to be Gods' Word only by an human Faith, and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it. In what manner soever he turns this human Faith, 'tis an horrible thing, that a Baptised Christian, at the Age of Reason, cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith, by which we are Christians. For thence it follows, That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture, ought neither to be inclined of himself, or induced by any other, to say at opening it. I believe, as I believe that GOD is, that the Scripture, I am going to read, is his Word. On the contrary they must make him say: I am going to examine, whether henceforth, during the rest of my life, I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith. 'Tis to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction; 'tis to lose the Fruit of Baptism; 'tis to reduce Baptised Christians to instruct their Children, as if they were not so, and that they were yet to deliberate, of what Religion they should be. And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture, the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity, on that of the Incarnation, on that of JESUS CHRISTs Mission, and the Redemption of Mankind. For that, which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say, That the Believer, who has not read the holy Scripture, can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspired by GOD, is, That otherwise they must acknowledge an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority: Which would be to own this Authority as infallible, and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation. But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith; and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith, both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESUS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church, and before he has read the holy Scripture, I shall always conclude with equal Certainty, That the Church's Authority will be infallible. By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle, we must in reducing the Christians, who go to read the holy Scripture, to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture, reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief. This was not the Method of our Forefathers; they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children. When they baptised them in their Infancy, they said in that young Age Credo, I believe. No matter, though our Reformers have changed this Form; 'twas used in the very first Ages, and will be always holy and venerable, maugre all they can do. But this Form, used towards Children, shows us, that when they shall have the use of Reason, they must be immediately taught to make an Act of Faith, and time must not be lost in exciting them to it. They will then be capable of it: they may say the same Creed, they should have said, if they had been baptised at the Age of Understanding; and to reduce them to a Faith barely human, is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism, and justify the Practice, as well as the Doctrine of the Anabaptists. And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe, that I allege here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration, or to render them odious: these manners are not beseeming Christians. I am ready to make good, that the Doctrine, taught here by Mr. Claude, and which all Protestants must teach with him, introduces Anabaptism. For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense, till such time as one has read the holy Scripture, and be instructed by himself; if all the Acts, that precede this Instruction, are not Acts of Christians: since they have for their foundation only an human Faith: for the same reason Bap●●● must be deferred till that time, and we must not make Christians, that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion. The Fourth REFLECTION, On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church, as we do to him about the Scripture. 'TIS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us, That he will make us the same Argument for the Church, as we make him for the Scripture: for, to do this, as we show him a point of time, which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes the Reading of the Scripture, he must also be able to show us one, that precedes the Church's Instructions: but this he will never find. Whatever he does, we shall always mark him a a Point of time, before the reading of the Scripture, which is that, when the Church puts it into our hand: but before the Church there is nothing; she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions. 'Tis an Error to imagine, that we must always examine, before we believe. The Happiness of those, who are born, as I may say, in the Bosom of the true Church, is, That GOD has given her such an Authority, that we believe at first what she proposes, and that Faith precedes, or rather excludes Examination. To ask now, by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Church's Authority, is to departed visibly from the Question. He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church, to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters. This very thing, that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole, to whom none can show her beginning, or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averred Fact, whilst she shows all other Societies, that environ her, theirs by Facts, which themselves cannot deny; this very thing is a sensible Character, that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church. GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church. But whatever these Motives are, not to forestall them here, this being no place for it, 'tis certain, that there are some; since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Church's word, before we have read the holy Scripture, and that in the first Instruction, we receive, without speaking of the Scripture, we are taught to say, as a fundamental Act of our Faith, I believe the Catholic Church. Mr. Claude tells us, that to authorise the Method, by which we pretend to lay the Church's Faith as the Foundation of all the rest, the Creed should have begun with saying, I believe the Church; whereas it is begun with saying, I believe in GOD the Father, and in JESUS CHRIST, and in the Holy Ghost. And he considers not, that 'tis the Church herself, which teaches us the whole Creed; that 'tis on her word we say, I believe in GOD the Father, and in JESUS CHRIST his only Son, and the rest; which we cannot say with a firm Faith, unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts, that the Church, which teaches us, deceives us not. After than we have on her word said, I believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost, and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons, whom their Majesty places above all, we add an holy Reflection on the Church, which proposes to us this Belief, and say, I believe the Catholic Church. To which we immediately after join all the Graces, we receive by her Ministry, the Communion of Saints, the Remission of Sins, the Blessed Resurrection, and in fine Everlasting Life. The Fifth REFLECTION, On Mr. Claude's alleging here the Practice of the Greek Church, and the like: which is only to embroil the matter, and not to resolve the Difficulty. 'TIS to show a desire of embroling matters, to allege here with Mr. Claude, the Greek Church, the Armenian, the Egyptian, or Aethiopick, and that of the Cophti, and so many others, which brag no less of being the true Church, than the Roman does. Those, say they, who are bred up in these Churches, revere their Authority, every one of these Churches has Followers, as zealous, as ours: True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark: every one attributes his, as we do, to the Grace of the Holy Ghost, and resting on the Authority of the Church, in which he is, says, That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity. This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection; and thus sometimes, when Men cannot free themselves, they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs. But he will gain nothing by this Address: for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for? is it for indifferency of Religions? Will he say with the wicked, that there is not a true Church, in which men indeed act by divine Motions? And under pretence, that the Devil, or, if he pleases, Nature can imitate, or, to say better, sergeant these Motions, will he maintain, that they are every where imaginary? GOD forbidden: we will both of us avoid this Rock. He will avow then with me, that there is a true Church, which soever it is, where the Holy Ghost acts, though by looking only on the exterior, we cannot always so easily discern, who those are, in whom he dwells. Hitherto we are agreed; let us see now, how far we can go together. We agree that there is one true Church, in which the Holy Ghost acts; we agree, that he makes use of exterior Means, to put the Truth in our Hearts; we agree, that he makes use of the Church, and of the Scripture. Our question is to know by which he gins, whether by the Scripture or by the Church; whether, I say, he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture, or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church. I say, that the Holy Ghost gins by the Church; and it must be so, since 'tis manifestly the Church, that puts the Scripture in our hands. Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here, and gins to walk alone; but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice. For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church, and of believing, that on her word we may make an Act of divine and supernatural Faith concerning the Scripture, obliges him to say, that 'tis not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith; and that every Act of Faith, which precedes this Reading, is an Act of human Faith. See the deporable Condition, in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture. Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place, where he began to leave me, and saying afterwards with me, that there is a true Church, wheresoever she is, the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers; that by this Veneration, which he at first puts in their Hearts, he fixes them to the Scripture, which this Church presents them; that this Church requires also of all those, she can instruct, that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture, and acknowledges not for her Children those, which have only an human Faith for it. But, say they, the Roman Church is not the sole, which attributes to herself this Authority: the Greek, and other Churches will have one believe them on their word, and teach, that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the Submission of a divine Faith. And well, if it be so, it remains only to choose between these Churches. But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush; she degrades herself, as I may say, from the Title of the Church, since she finds not in herself Authority enough to cause all those, whom she gins to instruct, to make an Act of a Christian, and an Act of divine Faith, not even on the Truth of the Scripture, whence 'tis supposed, she ought to learn all the rest. But Mr. Claude asks, how one shall choose between these Churches. Shall it be by Enthusiasm? It would be by Enthusiasm, as I have observed in the Conference, if the true Church had not her particular Characters, that distinguish her from others. She has, without going any farther, or searching any deeper, her Succession, in which none can show her by any positive Fact Interruption, Innovation, or Change. This is, what no false Church can so clearly glory of, as the true, because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn herself. There will be then always in the Instruction, which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition, something, that no other Sect can, or dare say. 'Tis by this, we would convince, if it were in question, the Greeks, the Ethiopians, the Armenians, and other Sects, which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the appearance of Succession, that they show; which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church. But as for the Calvinian Church, there is an end of her, because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession, and that she dares not, as we have now shown by Mr. Claude's acknowledgement, attribute to herself this Authority, without which there can neither be any certain Instruction, nor any assured Foundation of Divine Faith, nor in fine any Church. 'Twould be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession, they brag of. 'Twould be no great Labour to show them the exact Moment of their Innovation. The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we, and can themselves show it them, when they please: So when they pross us to do it, 'tis not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible, or even obscure and difficult: but 'tis in a word, that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing, and making the consequence of an Argument be lost. Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book, that, if any one, disgusted with the Calvinistical Church, was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti, or of the Greeks, 'twould be then time to show them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty, which they can no more de●y, than can the other Sects: but since the Calvinists, with whom we have to do, agree it, and that none thinks of leaving them, but to come to us, when we oblige any one to leave them, by showing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrine, the work is perfected, and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose. And to the end the Method of the Conference, and the State of the Question, which is there treated, may be throughly understood; it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church, but only to show, that there is somewhere or other a true Church, to which we must submit without examining; and besides, that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church, since she will herself have one examine after her; which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities, we have remarked, and by this acknowledgement lose the Title of the Church. This done, there's no more question to preach the Roman Church, that is, that Body of the Church, of which Rome is the Head; since to him, that will choose between two Churches, the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other, without any need of disputing farther for this purpose. Besides that the Roman Church so evidently bear these Characters of the true Church, that there is scarce any man of good Sense, even amongst our Reformed, but agrees, that, if there be in the world an Authority, to which we must submit, 'tis that of this Church. But however, when one sees the Absurdities, one is forced to own in Calvinism, for want of having acknowledged in the Church's Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction, one soon retires from a Church, whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective; and one is sufficiently solicited by the Remains of Christianity, which one feels within himself, to return to the Church, from whence he departed. The Sixth REFLECTION, On Mr. Claude's reducing, as much as he can, this Dispute to the Instruction of Children. WE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses, that pressed by this want of Authority, which ruins all Instruction in his Church, he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children, and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses, who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers. By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Church's Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith, we make; before we have read the Holy Scripture. But he ought first to consider, that the Argument, I made him, regarded not only Children: Children are not the only Christians, that have not read the Scripture. Mr. Claude is not ignorant, that there were in the beginning of Christianity, not only particular men, but also whole Nation, which, according to the Report of St. Irenaeus, had not the Holy Scripture, and without reading it ceased not to be true Christians. The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those, that have not read the Holy Scripture, of what Age soever they may be, and what way soever they may have happened not to have read it. For 'tis of those, and if they will, 'tis of those, whom St. Irenaeus mentions, or of their like, that I inquire concerning the Faith, with which they believe the Scripture, and prepare to read it, as being inspired by GOD. If they have but an human Faith, as Mr. Claude says, they are not Christians; and if they have a Divine Faith, as must be acknowledged, unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity, 'tis then true, that Divine Faith, without one's having read the Scripture, immediately follows the Church's Doctrine, and establishes her infallible Authority. 'Tis on this Authority, that every Christian, who takes the Scripture in hand, gins by believing with a firm Faith, that all, he is going to read, is Divine: and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture, till he has read it all; he believes the first Chapter, before he has read the second, and he believes all, before he has read the first Letter, or so much as opened the Book. He forms not then his Faith by the reading of the Scripture: this Reading finds his Faith already formed: this Reading does but confirm to a Christian all he already believed, and all, he had already found in the Church's Belief. He believed then before all things, that the Church deceived him not; and by this he began to make the Acts of a Christian. Children are not instructed in any other manner. When they hear their Parents, 'tis the Church, they hear, for our Parents are our Teachers, only as they are Children of the Church. 'Tis for this reason the Holy Ghost sends us to them: Ask thy Father and he will show thee; thy Elders and they will tell thee. St. Basil, Ep. 29. so great a Divine, justifies himself, and at the same time confounds the Heretics by alleging to them the Faith of his Mother and of his Grandmother St. Macrina; and he herein imitates St. Paul, who praises Timothy for having an unfeigned Faith, 2 Tim. 1. 5. which dwelled first in his Grandmother Lois, and his Mother Eunice. The meaning is that true Doctrine ought always to descend from hand to hand, and that there shall always be a true Church, to which none can ever show her beginning, nor find in her State those Marks of Interruption and Novelty, which all other Sects bear on their Front. Christian Parents, joined to this Church, join their Children to her, and put them at the feet of her Ministers to be there instructed. 'Tis not to be imagined, that Children, in whom Reason gins to appear, because they know not how to rank their Discourses, are incapable of resenting the Impressions of Truth. They are seen learn to speak in an Age, yet more infirm: in what manner they learn, by what they make the Distinction between the Noun and the Verb, the Substantive and the Adjective, neither themselves know, nor can we, who have learned by this Method, well explicate, so deep and hidden it is. We learn almost in the same manner the Church's Language. A secret Light guides us in both these States: in the one 'tis Reason, in the other Faith. Reason discovers itself by little and little, and so does Faith infused by Baptism. We must have Motives to fix us to the Church's Authority, GOD knows them, and we know them in general: in what manner he ranks them, how he makes these innocent Souls perceive them, is the Secret of his Holy Spirit. However 'tis certain, that this is done, and by this he gins. As this is the first Christian Act, we make, and as on this Foundation all is built, so it subsists for ever. The time will come, when we shall know more distinctly, why we believe; and the Church's Authority will from day to day become stronger in our minds. The Scripture itself will fortify the Chains, which bind us to her: but we must always have Recourse to the Original, that is, to believe on the Church's Authority. What Age soever we are at, 'tis by this we begin to believe the Scripture; we continue also on the same Foundation; and St. Augustin was already perfect in the Ecclesiastical Science, Cont. Ep. Fudam. 5. when he said, He would not believe the Gospel, if the Authority of the Catholic Church did not oblige him to it. I could, were it in dispute, show the same Opinion in the other Fathers. We must always re-ascend to the first Principle, and this is the first Principle, that fixes us to the Church. Let them not reproach to us this Vicious Circle: The Church makes us believe the Scripture, the Scripture makes us believe the Church. This on both sides is true in different Respects. The Church and the Scripture are so made for one another, and do so perfectly suit with one another, that they support each other, like Stones in an Arch, which mutually keep up the Building. All Nature is full of such Examples. I bear the Staff on which I lean: the Flesh binds and covers the Bones, which sustain it: and all things in the whole Universe mutually aid one another. So it is with the Church and the Scripture. There was but one Church, such as JESUS CHRIST founded, to which such a Scripture, as we have, could be addressed; that is, such an one, as durst promise the Church, in which this Scripture was made, an eternal continuance. If any one receives the Scripture, by the Scripture I will prove to him the Church; if he acknowledges the Church, by the Church I will prove to him the Scripture: but since we must begin on one side, I have clearly enough shown by Mr. Claude's Confession, that, if we begin not by the Church, the Divinity of the Scripture, and the Faith, we ought to have in it, is in Danger. Wherefore the Holy Ghost gins our Instruction by fixing us to the Church; I believe the Catholic Church. Amongst our Adversaries one must examine, before he believes; and he must before all things examine the Scripture, by which he examines all the rest. 'Tis not enough to have read some particular Verses, some Chapters, some Books: till such time as one has read all, conferred all, examined all, Faith continues in suspense, since 'tis by this Examen, that 'tis formed. Amongst the true Christians one believes at first: Thy Faith hath saved thee, saith JESUS CHRIST. Thy Faith, Tertul. de Praescrip. 14. observes Tertullian in that divine work of Prescriptions, and not thy being versed in the Scriptures: There's no need of passing through Opinions, through Doubts, through the Uncertainties of human Faith. I never changed, says St. Basil: What I believed from my Infancy, Ep. 79. has only been strengthened in my following years. Without passing from one Opinion to another, I have only perfected, what was at first given me by my Parents. As a Grain, which is sown, of little, that it was, becomes big, but continues always the same in itself, and without changing its Nature takes only Increase: so is may Faith increased— and this is not a Change, in which one passes from worse to better, but an Accomplishment of a Work already begun, and the Confirmation of Faith by knowledge: In this manner we pass not, as amongst our Reformed, from a State of doubt to a State of Certainty; or, as Mr. Claude loves better to speak, from an human Faith to a divine. Divine Faith is declared at first by the Churches first Instructions; and this could never be, did not her infallible Authority prevent all our Doubts, and all Examination. 'Tis thus, Cont. ep. Man. 4. as says St. Augustin, 'tis thus, I say, That those believe, who not being able to arrive at Understanding, secure their Salvation by the simplicity of their Faith. If we must always examine before we believe, we must begin by examining, whether there is a GOD, and harkening for some time, with a kind of Suspension of Mind, to the Arguments of the Wicked: That is, we must pass to the Belief of the Divinity through Atheism, since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it. But 'tis not so: GOD has placed his Mark in the World, which is the Work of his Hands, and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls, before all Doubts, the Sentiment of his Divinity. In like manner he has placed his Mark in his Church, the most perfect work of his Wisdom. By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD, and this so particular Character, which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies, gives her so great an Authority, that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions, not only the Holy Scripture, but also all her sound Doctrine. Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed; those, that are educated in a strange Church, as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction, aught to stretch forth their Arms to the Church, which has reason never to waver, because she has never varied nor wavered; and they find, they ought to return into it, because none should ever have gone out of it. The Seventh REFLECTION, On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation, that I appeared embarrassed in this part of the Dispute. IT may now be judged, whether I ought to be perplexed about the Promise, I made Mademoiselle de Duras, to make Mr. Claude acknowledge a Moment, in which, by the Principles of his Religion, a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture. How could I be embarrassed about a thing, which Mr. Claude acknowledged in the Conference, and which he acknowledges still in his Relation, though he has weakened both my Proof, and his own Confession? 'Tis true, he cannot let go the Word Doubt; but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable; the Equivalent is sufficient for me. 'Tis an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian, who is going to read the Holy Scripture, to be uncapable of a Divine Faith: To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith, is always too evidently to renounce Christianity. I have then manifestly, what I desired from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgement. And if he says, That the Faith, he here speaks of, excludes Doubt, as resembling that which makes us believe, there is a City called Constantinople, or that there was heretofore a King, named Alexander the Great, though we know it but by Men: This indeed is not enough for a Christian, who ought to act by a Divine Faith; but 'tis still enough to con●ound Mr. Claude, 〈◊〉 according to this Answer, the Church would always have an Authority, equal to that, which all Mankind, as I may say, has, when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact. Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith, the Victory of the Truth, I asserted, will remain secured by his Confession. Since if he says, his human Faith excludes Doubt, he supposes in it an infallible Truth; and if he say, it leaves a Doubt, he will in fine have pronounced these fatal Syllables, he so much shunned. In a Cause so assured, if I trembled for any thing, but the Danger of those, into whose Hearts, I feared, that either by reason of my own Weakness, or their Prepossession, I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter, I ill understood the Truth I defended. In the mean time, because I said in the Recital of the Conference, That, at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others, I trembled through the Apprehension, lest an Objection, proposed with ●o much Address and Eloquence, might put a Soul in Peril: Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquished. Here, says he, it may with Truth be said, That Monsr. de Condom' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State, and that the Liberty, which is so natural to him, sensibly decreased. I may truly say in my turn, That my Trembling, whence this Advantage is drawn, was interior; and that I can scarce believe, Mr. Claude could have perceived it, had I not myself sincerely related it in my Recital. But what matter is it, what was either the Effect, or Cause of my Fear? They shall say, if they please, That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection, I would cover the Disorder, into which I visibly fell, by the Trembling, I fain, I had for the Salvation of a Soul, that expected its Instruction from my Assistance. I will own it, if they please, or rather, not to lie, I will let it pass without Opposition. Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude, provided that even in Trembling I spoke the Truth. I spoke it: They need only see, what were my Answers, and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgement, I pretended. After this, the more I shall have trembled, and the weaker I shall have been, the more certain 'twill be, That 'twas the Truth, which kept me up. The Eighth REFLECTION, On another Proposition acknowledged by Mr. Claude in the Conference, where is shown the manner, how all false Churches established themselves. THere is a Part of the Conference, which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words. 'Tis that, where I show him the horrible State of his Church, which set itself up, after the Example of all false Churches, by separating from all the Christian Churches, that were in the World, and without finding any Church, which thought, as she did, at the time of her Establishment: So that she was not joined by any Continuity, either to the time, that went before, or to any Church, which appeared then in the World. This Fact passed for evident; and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part, he says enough to show, That in acknowledging this important Fact, he has only endeavoured to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles, when they separated from the Synagogue. I will not repeat, what I said on this Subject: You have seen it in the Conference, and Mr. Claude, who relates but one Word of it, does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation. I shall only say, That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute. The Company, says he, was risen, and the Conversation, which continued yet some time, became much more confused, and we discoursed of divers things. I know not; why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confused; it was not so in any part; and 'twas less so, if it were possible, in this, than in the rest. 'Tis true, we were risen, and Part of the Company was withdrawn; but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other. Mademoisello de Duras seemed to have redoubled her Attention, and after so many Principles declared, the Dispute became more quick, and more concluding than ever. If we spoke of divers Matters, it was not ramblingly, and all tended to the same End. It may be seen by reading it; and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf, when Mr. Claude shall publish his Relation, 'twill appear, that the little, he says, naturally requires all, that I recite. So it is, that the Pretended Reformed were averred, in establishing their Church, to have done contrary, to what the Orthodox ever did, and precisely, what all 〈◊〉 have done; and Mr. Claude, pressed upon this matter, cannot in all the History of Christianity show one only Church, truly Christian, founded, as the Churches of the new Reformation. It may now be judged, what likelihood there is, that what all Heretics have done contrary to the Practice of all the Orthodox, can ever be authorised by the Example of the Apostles, when they separated from the Synagogue. But since Mr. Claude places the strength of his Defence in this Example, I desire him to add to the evident Facts, I alleged to him 〈◊〉 this Subject, these short Reflections: that though JESUS CHRIST, authorised of himself, had no need of any Succession, to make himself believed, nevertheless to inculcate to us, how necessary 'tis for the true Religion to have a Succession always manifest, he would at his coming into the World find there a Church actually subsisting in its whole State: that he was born, and lived in this Church actually subsisting, that is, in the Synagogue, and would so form his Church in the midst of her, that even the holy Apostles after his As●●●sion, and the Coming down of the Holy Ghost, persisted publicly in the Service of the Temple, which was than the most 〈◊〉 Mark of Communion: that they were not indeed seen, whatever might be ordained against them, to have ever withdrawn from it, as long as the Temple was in being, and the Synagogue could keep either its exterior Form, or even any appearance of its ancient State: that GOD, who would in fine have his Children entirely separated from the Jews, had first extinguished in this ungrateful People, by a manifest Reprobation, with the Sacrifice and Priesthood, all the Marks of the Church, so that 'tis apparent, the Synagogue with its Temple fell to ruin, before the Children of GOD departed from it: that he was then so far from leaving any hope to this People, as he had done in the ancient Transmigration and Ruin of the first Temple, that he had on the contrary given all the Marks of an implacable Anger: that to the end such a Fall of his heretofore chosen People, and the Divorce, declared to the Synagogue, formerly his Spouse, might not give the least Pretext of suspecting any like Event in time to come, he had caused this future Fall and Divorce to be foretold by all his Prophets, as a singular Example of his wrath: and had at the same time protested, that no such thing should ever befall that Church, with which he made an eternal Covenant; that besides all this, and though the Reprobation of the Synagogue was clearly explicated in the Scripture, and though the Apostles, without making any Innovation in the Doctrine, did but follow him, who had till their time been always without any Interruption expected, nevertheless because there was in this Action some Rupture with the Synagogue, heretofore the true Church; to authorise them in it, there was no less required, than JESUS CHRIST himself, present on the earth with all the Authority of his eternal Father: and in a word, to descent from the Sentiments of the Synagogue, though besides convinced by the Scriptures, 'twas necessary, that JESUS CHRIST the Corner Stone, in whom all was to be united, should appear visibly on the earth with the incontestable Marks of his Mission. I leave you now to consider, whether an Example of this Nature can give any occasion of ever separating from the Church of JESUS CHRIST, or of saying, that this Church, founded on the Rock, must fall, or that the Succession, of which JESUS CHRIST is the Source, could suffer any Interruption, and whether all does not here rather cry out against such an Attempt. The Ninth REFLECTION, On the Visibility of the Church: that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrine, I have explained, till he has first framed himself a false Idea of it. HItherto we have seen, what concerns the Conference, and Mr. Claude's manner of relating it. We must now consider, what he opposes against the Instructions, that preceded it. He answers them largely in the writing, Vid. Sup. Advert. & Ref. p. 57 we have already mentioned. This writing has no Title, and is made in the Form of a Letter. To make ourselves better understood, let us give it a Name, and call it Mr. Claude's Manuscript Answer. As you have seen, that the Conference was on my part preceded by two Instructions: Vid. Sub. p. 2. the first of which established the perpetual Visibility of the Church, Vid. Sup. p. 16. and the second cleared some Objections, taken from the Book of the Kings, Mr. Claude has followed this Division. He divides also his Answer into two parts: the first is subdivided into four questions. In the first he treats of the Universal Church, which the Creed speaks of, and blames me for not having comprehended in it with all the Blessed Spirits the Saints, which shall be born even to the end of the World. In the second he examines, whether the Church can be defined by her exterior Communion, as he supposes, I have done. He speaks in the third of the Churches perpetual Visibility; and seeks in the fourth, to what Church JESUS CHRISTs Promises belong, whether to that, I have settled, or to that, he has established. He draws afterwards eleven Consequences from the Doctrine, he has explicated; and passes to the second Part, the Objections, taken from the Book of the Kings. This is the Idea of his work. 'Tis in these four Questions, and these eleven Consequences, that he attack's with all his might the Doctrine, I have taught concerning the perpetual Visibility of the Church: but you are going to see, that he could not do it, till he had first framed himself a false Idea of it. To show, that the Church, spoken of in the Creed, aught to be always visible, I said, that all Christians by the Name Church understood a Society, Vid. Sup. p. 2. & seq. making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST, ●nd given itself by his Word; whence it follows, that 'tis visible, and linked by an exterior and sensible Communion. Thus I at first laid down my Position, being what I had to make good. 'Twas not my intention, as Mr. Claude supposes, neither was there any need to give a perfect Definition of the Church, nor to prove her interior Union by the Holy Ghost, by Faith, by Charity: for of this we are agreed: The question then being only about the exterior Marks of this Union, I had done all in showing, that these exterior Marks are inseparable from the Church, and consequently that she is always visible. In the mean time on my having said, that by the word Church is understood a Society, making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST, Mr. Claude in all his Manuscript Answer, but principally in the second and fourth Question, will persuade me, that I consider the Church, as a Society merely exterior, constituted in its Essence by a single Profession of believing, without believing indeed, whose whole Nature and Essence consists in bare Exteriors and Appearances, without reality; whose Unity is only an Unity of Profession, an exterior Unity, so that the interior is only in it by Accident; and that though there should be neither Faithful, nor Just in it, but that it should be wholly composed of Hypocrites, it would not cease to be the true Church. Behold indeed a frightful Idea of the Church, and I wonder not, that Mr. Claude has an horror of it: it is also as far from my Mind, and the Mind of all Catholics, as Heaven is from Hell; and I know not, how Mr. Claude could read my Instructions without seeing in them the clean contrary to what he imposes on me. Since the Reader has now these Instructions before his Eyes, I desire him to pass them over again in this Impression. Vid. Sup. p. 6. He will find there indeed, that 'tis of the Essence of the Church to be visible by Preaching and by the Sacraments: but he will find there also that the Elect and the Saints are the most noble Part of it; that they are there sanctified, that they are there regenerated, often also by the ministry of the Reprobate ● that they must not be considered, as making a Body apart, but as making the fairest and most noble part of it. He will find there, Ibid. that 'tis of the Essence of the Church, because she is holy, to teach always, constantly, and without varying, an holy Doctrine; but he will find, that this holy Doctrine, which she incessantly teaches, continually brings forth Saints in her Unity, and that by this Doctrine she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD. Do they call this a bare Profession of JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine without reality, and a meet Heap of Hypocrites? He will find, Sup. p. 7. & seq. that Hell cannot prevail against the visible and exterior Society of the Church: but he will find also, that 'tis because it cannot prevail against the Elect, who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church. 'Tis, I say, because it cannot prevail against the Elect, that it cannot prevail against the Church, which teaches them, in which they confess the Gospel, and receive the Sacraments. Thus instead of believing, that this Church, which subsists eternally, can according to our Principles subsist without the Elect: 'tis on the contrary seen, that we consider the Elect, as making the most essential Part and Strength of this Church. He will find, that 'tis of the Essence of the Church till the general Resurrection, Sup. p. 9, 10. to have the Ecclesiastical Ministry, which renders her visible: but he will find; also that the effect of this Ministry is to bring the Children of GOD to the perfect Stature of JESUS CHRIST, that is, to Perfection, which, after it has rendered them holy, will render them glorious both in Body and Soul. In fine he will find there the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST, Sup. p. 11. and of the Faithful amongst themselves: the interior Communion by Charity, and in the Holy Ghost, who animates us; but at the same time the exterior Communion in the Sacraments, in the Confession of Faith, and in all the exterior Ministry of the Church. Whence I concluded, Ibid. that 'tis not only the Society of the Predestinate, which shall subsist for ever: but that 'tis the visible Body, in which the Predestinate are included, which preaches to them, which teaches them, which regenerates them by Baptism, which 〈◊〉 them by the Eucharist, which administers to them the Keys, which governs them, and keeps them united under Discipline, which forms JESUS CHRIST in them: 'Tis this visible Body, that shall subsist for ever. 'Tis seen by this, that instead of making a Church, whose Communion is of its own nature merely exterior, and interior only by Accident, the Foundation of the Church is on the contrary the interior Communion, of which the exterior Communion is the Mark, and that the Effect of this Mark is to show, that the Children of GOD are kept and enclosed under this Seal. 'Tis seen also, that the Elect are the last End, for which all is done in the Church, and those, whom all her Ministry ought principally to serve; so that they make the most essential Part, and, as I may say, the very Ground of the Church. If then I have spoken more of the exterior Communion, than of the interior Communion of the Church, 'tis plainly seen, that this can be only for the Reason, I have mentioned; to wit, that the Pretended Reformed being agreed with us, that the Foundation, as I may say, of the Church is her interior Union, I needed only establish the exterior, the necessity of which these Gentlemen contest. Thus, when I said at first in my Instruction, that the Church was the Society, which confessed the true Faith, Mr. Claude ought to have understood, that this Confession of the Mouth excluded not the Belief of the Heart, but rather supposed it in the Living and essential part of the Church, of which I spoke not then, because it was not the Question, I had to propose and resolve. To conclude from this Silence, that I admitted no other Union essential to the Body of the Church, but this exterior Union, is the same, as if one, that should have undertaken to explain only those exterior Ligaments, which keep human Bodies united on the outside, and include, as I may say, in one and the same Continent, with the living Members, the Nails, the Hair, the peccant Humours, and even the dead Members, not yet cut off from the Body, should be therefore made believe, that he acknowledges no other Principle of Union; and under this Pretence it should be said of him, that, according to this man's Principles, there might be an human Body, which should be only Hair, Nails, rotten Members, and peccant Humours, without having any thing living in effect: This is, what Mr. Claude does, when he concludes from my Discourse, that the Church of JESUS CHRIST may be only an Amass of wicked persons and Hypocrites. But this will appear farther, in what follows, by Mr. 〈◊〉 own Principles; 'tis sufficient for me in this place to show him, that this Church merely exterior, which he call the Church of the Cardinal's Bellarmin and du Perron, and of M. de Candom, is a Church, that subsists only in his imagination; and one may believe by his manner of judging my Sentiments that he no better understood those of these illustrious Cardinals. The Tenth REFLECTION, On the Pretended Reformeds' Confession of Faith: that it acknowledges no Church, but what is visible, and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty. TO show, Vid. Sup. p. 2, 3. & seq. that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church, I laid for a Foundation, that in a Confession of Faith, such as this Creed was, Words were used in their most natural and most simple Signification; and I added, that the word Church signified so naturally the visible Church, that the Pretended Reformed, Authors of the Chimaera of an invisible Church, in all their Confession of Faith never used the Word Church in this Sense; but only to express the visible Church, clothed with the Sacraments, with the word, and with all the public Ministry. See the Passages of the Confession of Faith, I have related, with the Consequences, I have drawn from them. I was not the first, who made this Remark; 'twas a National Synod of the Pretended Reform. These Gentlemen, who had so much preached the invisible Church, and who, being pressed upon the Succession, grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession, of which they made use, wondered, they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith, where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church. Surprised with this Language, so natural to Christians, but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation, they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap, sur la Conf. de Foy art. 3. in the Synod of Gap, in the Chapter, which has for its Title, On the Confession of Faith. 'Tis by this, all the Synods begin, and the first thing, that is done in them, is to review this Confession of Faith; which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title, Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods: The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches, reviewed and corrected in the National Synod. But let us come to the Decree of Gap, of which these are the words. The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods, in what Terms the XXV. Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be couched: forasmuch as being to express, what we believe touching the Catholic Church, of which mention is made in the Creed, there is nothing in the said Confession, that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church; as also in the XXIX Article they shall see, whether it be fit to add the Word Pure to the Word the Church, which is in the said Article: and in general all shall come prepared on the matters of the Church. We have related the Substance of this XXV Article. You may in the same place see the XXVI, Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles. And for the XXIX Article, it says, that the true Church ought to be governed according to the Policy, which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has established; that is, that there be Pastors, Overseers, and Deacons, to the end the pure Doctrine may have its Course, and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church, which they deliberated to add to that of true, is founded on a Doctrine of the Pretended Reformed, which says, that a true Church may not be pure, because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixed, I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith. And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation, which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by: but 'tis not here in question. What there is important, is, that these People, who say, they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrine of the Gospel, being to explicate, as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith, the Church, of which mention is made in the Creed, spoke nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church. I could easily tell you the Reason: 'tis, that this Church, of which mention is made in the Creed, is indeed the visible Church; 'tis, that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility, and the word Catholic is so far from derogating from it, that it supposes it; 'tis, that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas, the words bear with them, than according to the Refinements and Interpretations, one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty. Thus the invisible Church presented not itself at all to our Reformed, when they framed their Confession of Faith; the sense of the visible Church appeared only in it; there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke; they began to find it strange, that a Church, which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church, and of a Church of the Predestinate, should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith, but have left it for evident, that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society; so that to speak truly, the Succession of the Church would no longer be shown without showing the Succession of her Visibility: a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation. 'Twas this, inclined the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article, and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepared upon the matters of the Church, which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed, which are not yet understood, and which will make all those Catholics, that can throughly understand them. But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair. 'Twas to awaken all understandings; 'twas too visibly to mark the Defect, and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it, The Confession reviewed and corrected. Thus in the Synod of Rochel, held in 1607, 'twas resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles, nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church. By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds' Confession of Faith: the invisible Church has no part in it, and one draws from it Consequences, as one can. That, Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw, pinches them: for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds' Confession of Faith, and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith, as conformable in all points to the Scripture, they must tell us, that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture, and that from the Scripture it has passed naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians, into the Confessions of Faith, and consequently into the Creed, which is not only the best authorised of all Confessions of Faith, but also the most simple. Mr. Claude answers us, Man. Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes; and that by Process of time Words often departed from their first and natural Signification; and that besides, though it should be true, as I have said, that the word Church, taken simply, should signify the visible Church, the word Universal would change this Signification. But he shall not escape us by this Subterfuge: for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation. See it taken from the very Principles, laid by themselves. The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds' Confession of Faith, as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion: else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable, as it pretends, to the Holy Scripture: Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society: this Proposition is acknowledged in the Synod of Gap, as we just now saw. 'Tis thus then, that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture, and in the Creed for a visible Church, and the Term Catholic or Universal, put in the Creed, Man. Ans. q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses, to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian, spread over the whole Earth, from all false Churches, and all particular Churches, instead of rendering the Church invisible, makes her so much the more visible, as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches, and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches, so visible, and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith, and their common Government. The Eleventh REFLECTION, On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility: the surprising Doctrine of this Minister. BUT without disputing any farther, we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude, and 〈◊〉, what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility. And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work! There would be seen in it many things, very favourable to our Doctrine, which I cannot well make understood, till it shall be public. But 'tis not for me to publish it, and I am contend to transcribe at length, forasmuch as it is necessary, the Passages, you are going to see, such as I found them in the Duke of Cheureuses' Manuscript, owned as I have said by Mr. Claude himself. Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉, this m●st not be wondered at for two Reasons. The first, because 'tis true, he has taught in a manner the same Doctrine in his other 〈◊〉, th● he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully, and 〈◊〉 order th●●● over. The second, because he pretends to say nothing new; a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoice at, there being nothing more desirable, 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles, on which we may agree, increase. Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design, let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us, and let us re●●●● his Doctrine in the 〈◊〉 Order, th●● he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question, and afterwards in his eleven Consequences. What I find at first, is, that 'tis manifest, that, th● the 〈◊〉 Church be mixed with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession, 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture, as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well, let not proceed, This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons; but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons, even with certainty. We know not certainly, who are in particular true Believers, nor who are Hypocrites: but we know certainly, that there are true Believers, as there are Hypocrites; which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church. I hear this with joy: assuredly we shall advance. Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest, that there shall be always a visible Body, of which one may say, There are the true Believers. I continue to read his Answer, and I find, that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed, that they believe not the Body, in which GOD has placed, according to St. Paul, some Apostles, some Teachers, some Pastors, and the rest, to be the Church of JESUS CHRIST. How glad am I to be reprehended, provided we advance! It is then manifest, that the Body of JESUS CHRIST, which is his Church, shall always be composed of Pastors, of Teachers, of Preachers, and also of People: it is then consequently always very visible, and the Succession of the Pastors, as well as that of the People, aught to be manifest in it. Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat, who determins, that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministry and the Word. So much the better, and I am glad, that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrine. I was afraid, Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians, where the Church is proposed to us without Spot, and without Blemish; and I had set myself to prove, that this Church, described by St. Paul, was the visible Church; because it was washed by Baptism, and by the Word● Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment. He says, that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church, which is already in Heaven, but also the visible Church, whichis on the earth, as making together but one and the same Body, and he citys here also Mr. Mestresat. I receive this Doctrine; and if any of our Reformed, be it Mr. Claude himself, ever objects to me, that I must not so much rely on the Church's Visibility, since there is at least a Part of this Church, which is invisible, that is to say, that, which is in Heaven, I will answer, that this ought not to trouble us, since that in fine by this Doctrine of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude, being in communion with the visible Part of the Church, I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part, which is already in Heaven with JESUS CHRIST: so that 'tis very certain, that all is reduced in fine to the Visibility. Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections, that may be made, and he decides at first, that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministry. He must then at last, as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility, come to show us a Succession in the Ministry, and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors. He objects to himself, that the Ministry is common to the Good and the Bad, whence it seems, one might conclude against his Doctrine, that Good and Bad compose the Church. And he Answers, that if the use the Ministry is common to Good and Bad, this is only by accident, and through the Fraud of the Enemy; that of right it belongs only to the true Believers; and that the supernatural Destination is only for them. All this is clear, except this Expression, the Ministry of right belongs only to the true Believers. For, as one might understand by this, that none but true Believers are lawful Pastors, one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examine every one in particular, whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers, and to believe, that they cease to be Pastors, when they cease to be good People, though without Scandal: this is the pernicious Doctrine of Wicleff, which would put all the Church in Confusion! Excepting this ill Sense, which cannot be Mr. Claude's, I grant him all; he says; for without doubt 'tis not JESUS CHRISTs first Intent, that there should be Ministers, that are Deceivers: this happens only through the Malice of the Enemy. The Distinction of the Ministry is for true Believers; JESUS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites: who doubts it? But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church, to be lawful Pastors in it: and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixed Ministry, he must then, without examining, whether the Ministers are good or evil, show us a Succession of them always manifest, under which GOD has conserved his People. The more I continue my Reading, the more I find this Truth evidently declared. For entering into the fourth Question, I take good notice, that Mr. Claude pretends there to show, that the Passages, where JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth, regard only the Society of true Believers: but he forbears not always equally to own, that this Church never ceases to be visible, and that JESUS CHRIST has so promised. I pretended to show the visible Church in these words: Vid. Sup. 7, 8. & seq. Mat. xuj. v. 18. Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church: and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. The Reasons, I made use of to prove it, may be seen. Mr. Claude receives this Doctrine with its Proofs. And he acknowledges, that the Church, which is spoken of in this Passage, is in effect a confessing Church, a Church, which publishes the Faith, a Church, to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministry, a Church, which uses the Ministry of the Keys, and which binds and loses, and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility. 'Tis such a Church, that JESUS CHRIST has promised to keep always on the earth; Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him, that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministry, which is essential to her: which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me, Vid. Sup. p. 9, 10. etc. that the Ecclesiastical Ministry shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection; and to grant without difficulty, that this Promise of JESUS CHRIST, I will be always with you, respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministry. Mat. xxviii. v. 9 20. JESUS CHRIST promises, says he, to be with the Church, to baptise with her, and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD. There shall then always be Teachers, with whom JESUS CHRIST shall teach, and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church. But shall this Ministry last for ever so pure, that none but good People shall be admitted to it? We have seen, that Mr. Claude pretends it not. In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity: the Promise is, that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be, JESUS CHRIST will always act, always baptise, and ALWAYS TEACH with them; and the Effect of this Ministry, though mixed, shall be such, that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible, not indeed, says Mr. Claude, with a distinct view, which goes so far as to say, Such and such are 〈…〉, which it notwithstanding CERTAIN, and which goes so 〈…〉 say, The true 〈…〉, to 〈◊〉, IN THAT EXTERIOR, PROFESSION. Let us not call, if they will, by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession: let us abstain from this Name, since Mr. Claude is against it; and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians, let us endeavour to agree on the thing. This exterior Profession, which may be always 〈◊〉 and, as I may say, pointed to with the Finger, is mixed of Good and Evil: the Ministry, which governs it, is also mixed. Mr. Claude agrees all this: it may nevertheless be said, Under this Ministry and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers: This is, what we just now heard from the same Minister's Mouth. If then, according to his Doctrine, the Society of true Believers subsists for ever, and continues always visible on the earth; if it may always be shown in an exterior Profession, and is visible only there, as Mr. Claude says: it not only follows, that true Believers shall always be upon the earth, but that this Profession, mixed of Good and Bad, where there true. Believers are found, where they are pointed to, where they are marked, shall be there also; this is, what we agree on with Mr. Claude. But since all these Passages are dispersed up and down his Answer, see here one, in which he has taken care to collect all together. 'Tis after his fourth Question, and in the seventh Consequence, that this Minister, endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith, where it is said, that in our days, and before the Reformation, the State of the Church was interrupted; distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church, which is never interrupted, according to his Principles, and th●s he defines the Church. The Church, says he, is the true Faithful, who make Profession of the Christian Truth, of Piety, and of true Holiness under a Ministry, which f●●nishes her with the Alments, necessary for the spiritual Life, without depriving her of any of them. We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments. In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude, that the Church always subsist, and always subsists visible, since, by his Definition, she is nothing 〈◊〉, but the true Believers, who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministry. Behold an immovable Foundation. Let us see, what we can build on it: but before we build, we are going to see the Objections fall. The Twelfth REFLECTION, Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolved by his own Doctrine. MR. Claude objects to me first, Man. Aus. that I desire in vain to establish my Society, composed of Good and Bad, and its eternal Duration, on these inviolable Promises of JESUS CHRIST, Thou art Peter, and I am always with you. 'Tis not says he, of the Wicked, that it can be said; that Hall shall not prevail against them. 'Tis not with Wicked men and Hypocrites, that JESUS CHRIST has promised always to be; and these Promises respect none but true Believers. Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles, that, if these Promises respect only true Believers, they respect them at least in this Ministry, and in this exterior Profession, and the Objection will be at the same time resolved. For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shown, and always visible, according to Mr. Claude, in this exterior Profession, in which the Good are mixed with the Bad; it follows, that this Composition, by what Name soever it is called, shall always appear on the earth. Now none can be assured of a Societies subsisting always, and always in a visible State, unless GOD has promised it. His Promises regard then even this Mixture; and not only the true Believers, but with them all the Society, in which they ought, according to his Decrees, always to appear. By Consequence we must understand these Promises of JESUS CHRIST otherwise, than Mr. Claude teaches. The Promises of JESUS CHRIST respect not the Wicked alone, nor were made for their sake; if he said only this, he would have Reason: but these Promises, which JESUS CHRIST made to his Faithful, comprehend also the Wicked, who are mixed with them. When GOD by his Prophets promised the ancient People to give then plentiful Harvesh, with the Corn he promised also the Chaff; and to preserve the Harvest is to preserve the Chaff with the Corn. So to promise the Church and her eternal Duration, into promise with the Elect, the Wicked, in the midst of whom GOD encloses them. The wicked also in the Church are for the Just, as the Chaff in the Harvest is for the Corn; and as GOD promises not the Chaff, either alone, or for itself, so he promises not the wicked, either alone, or for themselves. But nevertheless all this Composition shall subsist in virtue of the divine Promise till the last separation, when the Wicked, as the Chaff, shall be cast into the Fire, that shall never be quench. In the mean time JESUS CHRIST shall be always with the whole Composition, keeping there in all the Exterior the sound Doctrine, which he knows how to carry into the Interior, even into the Hearts of those, that live: in the same manner as the Nourishment, presented to our whole Body by the same way, quickens only the Members, which are disposed to receive it. A second Objection of Mr. Claude's will fall by the same Principle. He objects to me, Man. Ans. 1. q. that in defining the Catholic Church, mentioned in the Creed, I speak only of the Church, which is actually on earth, instead of comprehending in it all the Elect, which have been, are, and shall be, and in fine with the holy Angels all the heavenly Jerusalem. I have already answered him, that I neither would, nor was obliged to define the Church but in relation to our Subject, and her Visibility. But I add, that in saying this, according to Mr. Claude's own Principles I said all: for, according to him, in the exterior Profession, that is, in what renders the Church visible, may be marked the true Believers, with whom all the Saints, in what time and place soever they may be, not excepting the holy Angels, are united. The Church, which is on the Earth, says Mr. Claude, is one with that, which is already gathered in Heaven, and with that, which GOD will cause to spring up even to the end of the Generations, all which three together make but one, which is called the Universal Church. GOD be praised: when I shall have found the exterior Profession, which renders the Church visible, Mr. Claude has already told us, that I shall have found the true Believers, that is according to him, the true Church actually present on earth: and he now tells us, that with this Church I shall by the same means have found both that, which is already in Heaven, and that, which GOD will cause to grow up in all following Ages. We need then only inquire after the Church, which is on the earth, and the exterior Profession, which shows her to us, being assured to have found there, without enquiring any farther, the Perfect Communion of Saints, and the Society of all the Elect. Besides when under the Name of the Catholic Church I understood the Church, which is upon the Earth, I spoke with all the Fathers. They ordinarily join to the Title of Catholic Church that of spread over all the earth, toto orbe diffusa. To this Title of Catholic they join also the Title of Apostolic, and thus is it put in the Nicene Creed, where is seen the most authentical, as well as the most perfect Interpretation of the Apostles Creed. This Title of Apostolic makes part of the Church's Catholicity, and shows us among other things, that she is descended from the Apostles by the perpetual Succession of her Pastors, and by the Episcopal Chairs, established over all the earth. All the Saints, whose blessed Souls are with GOD, were conceived in this Church; all those, that are to come, shall likewise be regenerated in it: so that there shall never be any one, who has not made an essential Part of this Body, of which JESUS CHRIST is the Head. For the Angels, if we respect only the direct Signification of the Words, they never made Part of this Church, founded by the Apostles, and spread over all the earth, where she ought to make her Pilgrimage; and though JESUS CHRIST is their Head, he is in a more particular manner that of the Faithful, washed in his Blood, and renewed by his Word. But the Angels, though united to JESUS CHRIST in another manner, are our Brethren, and are not Strangers to the Catholic Church, of which on the contrary they are established after their manner Co-opperators and Ministers. 'Tis an evident Truth, but with which I had nothing to do in this place: 'tis sufficient to remark in the Creed, what our Fathers found there expressly and immediately signified by the word Catholic Church, by adding to it the Title Apostolic, so natural to her Catholicity, and the Elegium of being spread over all the earth. To know the Doctrine of th●● Church, is to know the Doctrine of all the Elect. There is seen in Heaven and in the Brightness of the Saints, only what is believed in this Church; and the Holy Angels, who, as the Apostle Saint Paul says, Eph. iii. v. 10. have learned by the Church such high Secrets of the Divine Wisdom, respect her Beller. Thus all being reduced, as I have already said, to the Visibility, Mr. Claude will only make me lose Time, and digress, when he will have me treat here any thing else, to make known this Catholic Church, which is confessed in the Creed. The Thirteenth and last REFLECTION. Mr. Claude's Doctrine shows the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion, that there is no Salvation for them, but in the Roman Church. I Have now nothing left to do, but to exhort the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion, and Mr. Claude himself, if he will permit me, to draw manifest Consequences from the Principles, he has laid: then they will no longer be able to resist the Truth, and will remain convinced, that there is no Salvation for them, but in returning to the bosom of the Roman Church. We have seen that, Vid. Sup. XI. Ref. p. 99 &. seq. to verify the Promises of the Gospel, Mr. Claude is obliged to acknowledge a Church always visible, since the Church, which is not visible, is no Church, and that according to the Definition, Vid. Sup. p. 103. he has given us, the Church is the true Faithful, who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministry, which furnishes her with the Aliments, necessary for the Spiritual Life. These Faithful then are not a Body in the Any since they make PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH under an Ecclesiastical Ministry always subsisting; and that, as we have seen, there must be without any Interruption an exterior Profession, of which it may be said, There are the true Believers. Thus 'tis not sufficient to allege at random to us concealed Believers, they are obliged to show us without Interruption, first a visible Society, of which may be said, They are there; 'tis there, they serve GOD in Spirit and Truth; 'tis there, they confess the Gospel. Nor will it be enough to show us these Believers dispersed: they must secondly show us them gathered together under the Authority of an Ecclesiastical Ministry, with preaching of the Word, with the Administration of the Sacraments, with the use of the Keys, and all the Ecclesiastical Government. By consequence they must show us a Society of Pastors and People: whence it follows in the third place, that they must be able to name us these Pastors, since the Succession of them is manifest. To seek all this in the Pretended Reformed Church, as it is now separated from the Roman Church, that is, from that Body of the Church, which acknowledges the Roman Church, and the Pope for its Head; is what Mr. Claude does not so much as dream of: 'tis enough for him, that to the time of the Pretended Reformed's Separation he finds all this in the Roman Church itself. The true Believers were there, as long as those, that composed the Pretended Reformation, were there, when they went forth, or were driven forth, Vid. Sup. p. 46. they carried the Church with them, as Mr. Claude said in the Conference. This Discourse, more like a Raillery than a serious Discourse, is nevertheless that, which is seriously held in the new Reformation. Till the Separation of these new Reformed, the Succession of the true Believers, that is according to Mr. Claude, of the true visible Church, Man. Ans. q. 4. seq. was perpetuated in the Roman Church, and 'tis since their Separation, that she ceases to contain them. Such is the Succession of the visible Church, which Mr. Claude establishes in his Manuscript Answer: till the Separation the true Faithful, which the Roman Church contained; after the Separation the Pretended Reformed, which came forth of her Bosom. But whence came their Pastors? Were they also detacht with these pretended Believers from the Body of the Roman Church, to perpetuate in the Church thus Reformed the Ecclesiastical Ministry? Ibid. In no wise: Mr. Claude does not understand it so. The Faithful, detacht from the Roman Church, all on a sudden deposed all the Pastors, which were before; that is to say, that before the Catholic Bishops and Priests with the Pope at their Head were the Pastors, established by JESUS CHRIST; for there must be such for the true Believers, which they contained in their Unity: in the Moment, that the Reformation appeared, they were all on a sudden deposed, and the Ministry taken out of their Hands. But what right had private persons thus all on a sudden and in one moment to dispossess all their Pastors? 'Tis, because they are the true Believers, Man. Ans. q. 4. & seq. to whom the Ministry appertains of right, who might consequently dispose of it, take it from some, and give it to others. Man. Ans. 4. q. towards the end. We must not, says Mr. Claude, imagine the Succession of Pastors in this ordinary transmission, which the Ministers make from one to another, and which is called the exterior and personal Succession: the Question is, whether it may not sometimes happen, that the Church, that is the true Believers, shall take her Ministry out of the hand of those, who have too visibly abused it, and give it to others. This is the Question in general, Cons. 8, 9, 10. as Mr. Claude proposes it; and the Application, he makes of it in particular, is, That the Latin Prelates, who enjoyed the Ecclesiastical Ministry in the time of our Fathers, and who were assembled in the Council of Trent, having made Decisions of Faith incompatible with Salvation, and having pronounced Anathemaes against these, who submitted not to them, the Pretended Reformed had Reason to regard these Prelates, as Ministers, who had stripped themselves of the Ministry, and to give it to other Persons. They should then at least, according to these Principles, have expected the Decisions of Trent; and since before these Decisions so many Churches, separated from Rome, had already given themselves Pastors, the Reformation will have begun by a manifest Usurpation. But let us not so much press. Mr. Claude, and without insisting rigorously on the Council of Trent, let us desire him only to mark us some day a little near the Time, in which he will permit the true Believers to have continued under the Ministry of the Roman Church. And in the mean time let us content ourselves to observe this new Doctrine: that it may happen, that all the Pastors of the Church, dispossessed all on a sudden, may become in one moment private men; and that, without their establishing any other Pastors to succeed them, the true Believers, in no wise Pastors, but private persons, separated from every Church actually existing, may of their sole Authority confer the Ministry on others, establish them, ordain them, install them. This is, what Mr. Claude afterwards farther explicates by these words; that these Pastors, before alone in Function, are of right deprived, and the Ministry returned of right to that part of the Society, Cons. 10. in which are found the true Believers, that is to say, the Pretended Reformed, separated from the Roman Church, and from every Church, then subsisting in the world. What an Authority and Privilege does the Separation give! Such is Mr. Claude's Doctrine: if I change, if I exaggerate, if I diminish, let him without delay publish his writing to confound me. But if this be his Doctrine, I conjure our Reform to consider, what Prodigies of Doctrine must be taught to defend their Reformation, For first, where do they read, in what Gospel, in what Epistle, in what Writing of the Old or New Testament, that all the Pastors of the Church should in a moment fall from their Chair, and become private persons, whom one might and ought freely disobey. Has JESUS CHRIST hidden this great Mystery from us? and would he not have precautioned us against this horrible Temptation of his Church? But this is not all: after he has shown us in the Scripture this universal Fall of all the Pastors, he must also find there this Ministry returned of right to the private Persons, that were never vested with it. And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning? Is it, that these private Persons become of right Ministers, without any Bodies having ordained them; or that, without being Ministers, they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church? Let them show me it in the Scripture, or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide. I find in the Scripture, that JESUS CHRIST said to his Apostles: As my Father sent me, I also send you. I find in the Scripture, that the Apostles thus send others, and consecrate themselves Successors. But that, all their Successors being on a sudden fallen, and deprived of the right of their Ministry, this Ministry should of right return to the Faithful, to whom none had ever given it, to dispose of at their Pleasure: neither has the Scripture said, nor following Ages imagined: 'Tis then a Monster, the Birth of which was reserved for the time of the new Reformation. The Ministry, say they, belongs of right to the Church. It does without doubt belong to the Church, as the Eyes do to the Body. The Ministry is not for itself, no more are the Eyes: The Ministry is established to be the Light of the Church, as the Eyes are the Light, or, as JESUS CHRIST calls them, the Torch of the Body. Does it follow, that, when the Body has lost its Eyes, it can remake them of itself? No without doubt; it will have need of the Hand, which made them at first, and there will never be any thing but a new Creation, which can repair the Work, that the first Creation had formed. In this manner, if the Catholic Church could, as they would imagine in the new Reformation, lose all on a sudden all its Ministers, without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESUS CHRIST, JESUS CHRIST must come again on Earth, to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation. They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers, of which the Reformed Church was at first composed; why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors, which were in Office in the Roman Church? The Ministry is to be mixed as the People, and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad, as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians. Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation, and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith, that the State of the Church was interrupted? Why were they fain to have recourse to these People, extraordinarily raised to build anew the Church, which was in ruin and desolation? 'Tis, that they were fain to speak, not according to what ought to be done in the Order, established by JESUS CHRIST, but according to what was done against all Order. 'Tis, that the new Reformation was made of Pastors, who in effect held nothing from the Pastors, that were before, and therefore they were necessitated, even against their Wills, to attribute to them, though without proof, an extraordinary Vocation. But in truth, Reason required something else: and why then did they not speak according to Reason, except it were once again, that they were fain to accommodate, not what was done to the Rule, but the Rule to what was done? But, will they say, if any Church, for example the Greek Church, shows us the Succession of her Pastors, will you hold it for a true Church? By no means, if I can show in it Marks of Innovation, which it cannot deny; as I should do without much trouble; if it were in question. But with our Reformed the Proof is made, since themselves confess the Interruption, we charge them with. Mr. Claude palliates, as well as he can, this interrupted State of the Church, so punctually acknowledged in her Confession of Faith. We distinguish, After the 4. q. 7. Conseq. says he, the Church from her State. The Church are the true Believers, who make Profession of the Christian Truth, of Piety, and of a real Sanctity, under a Ministry, which furnishes them with the Aliments, necessary for the Spiritual Life, without depriving them of any one. Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharged, as much as the Condition of militant can permit, from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings, not to be covered, and as it were buried by this Chaff, and these Tares, whence a thousand Evils come upon her, as to have a Ministry, free from Errors, from false Worships, from superstitious Practices, a Ministry possessed by good People, who keep at by good ways, and serve themselves for good example. 'Tis this State of the Church, which we say was interrupted. Why does he load himself with so many Words, and, because they are pompous, not observe, that they are vain, not to say deceitful, and manifestly contrary to the Gospel? For can one more clearly impose on People, than by exaggerating, as is here done, this Ministry possessed by good people, who keep it by good ways, and serve themselves for good Example? Is it, that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministry dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those, who are vested with it? and that, though they should be as scandalous and perverse, as the Scribes and Pharisees, we must not still say, not with JESUS CHRIST, they sit in Moses Chair, but what is much more august, Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESUS CHRIST, and his Apostles? Let us leave nevertheless these things, and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article, which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us. This interrupted State of the Church is alleged here, to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers: for let us hear, how this Article speaks. It has been sometimes necessary, and namely in our days, in which the State of the Church was interrupted, that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew. You see Gentlemen, this interrupted State of the Church is alleged only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers. But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation, 'tis not sufficient, that the Ministry is impure; it must have ceased. When you came, gentlemans, had this Ecclesiastical Ministry ceased? By no means, will Mr. Claude answer you, for then the Church would have ceased, since the Church, according to him, as you just now heard, is nothing else, but the true Believers, who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTRY, which furnishes her with necessary Aliments. And he has already told us, that the Church is never without the Ministry. Wherefore in this place, where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State, after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity, which he imagines in the Ministry before the Reformation; The Church, adds he, ceased not, She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministry. GOD forbidden. See, how he cries out against this Abomination, to say, that the Ministry can be lost in the Church. There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers, since to transmit the Ministry after the ordinary manner, 'tis not requisite for the Ministry to be pure; 'tis sufficient, that it is. And though for the transmitting of it there should be required, as Mr. Claude speaks, not only Ministers of good Doctrine, but also of good Life and good Example, 'tis as sure, that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People, as 'tis, that there will be always true. Believers, since that all, the Ministry as well as the People, must be there mixed of Good and Bad, till the final Separation at the last Judgement. Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESUS CHRISTs Church, and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplored Cause. And to see, what an Overthrow to JESUS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces, we need only consider the Promises of JESUS CHRIST, and see, in what it has pleased him principally to establish the Strength of his Church. She is strong, she is invincible, because JESUS CHRIST has said, Mat. xuj. v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her. But he did not say, that Hell should not prevail against her, till after he had said, Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, adding presently after, I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. 'Tis then in the Ministry, confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST, and using the Authority of the Keys, that JESUS CHRIST has principally established the Strength of his Church. And to whom did he say, I am with you even unto the end of the world; Matt. xxviii. v. 20. but to those, to whom he said, ●●ach and baptise? All the Church is comprehended in this Promise; who knows it not? But JESUS CHRIST would show the Truth of this Doctrine, Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian: The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST; and this is the Church, the People united with their Bishop, and the Flock joined to their Pastor: where 'tis clear, that we must understand, as he says elsewhere, Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. & Tr. de unit. Ecc. etc. this Pastor united with all his Colleagues, and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy, so often established in his Writings. 'Tis then with reason, that JESUS CHRIST would show the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministry, and 'tis manifestly seen, that 'tis to those, who teach, he would say. I am always with you. And what is here more admirable, is, that these Promises are so evident, that Mr. Claude (against the Prepossessions of his Religion) was forced to acknowledge them such, as I have now explicated them. For we have heard him tell us, that 'tis in effect of a confessing Church, of a Church, which publishes the Faith, of a Church, which uses the Ministry, that JESUS CHRIST has pronounced, that Hell should not prevail against her. V sup. xi. Ref. p. 99 seq. And because JESUS CHRIST, after he had said, Teach and baptise, adds, I am with you; Mr. Claude concludes, as we do, that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church, that he affirms he will be with her, baptise with her, and teach with her even unto the end of the world. 'Tis then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministry, which is principally comprehended in this Promise; 'tis principally in this, that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church. In the mean time, against all this Order we are shown the Ministry so weak, and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST, that it falls all together in one moment, and on the contrary particular Believers so strong, that they alone establish all the Ministry extraordinarily raised, without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration. Who does not then see, that all is overturned in the new Reformation? and that to say with them, that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church, to depose by their means all the Pastors, and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place; whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministry by the common ways, established in his word, and always observed in his Church: is to say, that he would set up a Church in a manner, contrary to that, he has revealed, and has always caused to be followed by his Church? Or rather 'tis to say, that he would have this Church, formed after a manner so new amongst Christians, bear in its Original, without ever being able to efface it, the manifest Character of its Falsity. But let us come to these true Believers, of whom Mr. Claude brags to us. I am not contented to dispute with them the Power, he has given them to depose all their Pastors, and make others: I say, that these true Believers never were. There must notwithstanding, according to this Minister, have been true Believers, even in the Bosom of the Roman Church: for since, according to his Doctrine, there must be acknowledged, without any Interruption, an Ecclesiastical Ministry, and an exterior Profession, of which might have been said, There are the true Believers, they were true Believers under that Ministry, and in that Profession, whence they went forth. I ask, did they communicate in the Sacrifice, where Saints are invocated, where their Relics and Images are honoured, where the Pope is named as the Head of the Orthodox, where JESUS CHRIST is adored, as present in Body and Soul, where he is offered, where the Holy Sacrament is received under one Kind? Not to communicate in this Sacrifice, and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there, were manifestly to separate, and they are supposed not to have done that yet: but if they communicated there, continuing true Believers, in what an Error are now all our Reformed, who believe not themselves to have been true. Believers, till since they left communicating there? Thus these true Believers are People in the Air: 1 Kin. nineteen. v. 18. these seven thousand, so much bragged of in the new Reformation, and by Mr. Claude, Man. Ans. 2 part. are so far from appearing, that they are not in nature, since before the Separation there was not any one, who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host, which our Reformed look on as Baal, before whom one must not bow the Knee. They say, that these true Believers, who by their actual separating composed the Reformation, were before separated in heart from the public Idolatry. But first, this is not sufficient: secondly 'tis not so. This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude, since he will have a Church always visible; since he has just now defined the Church to be the true Believers, who make Profession of the Truth, of Piety, of real Sanctity. Where then the Profession is wanting, there are neither true Believers, nor a true Church. But moreover, this is visibly not so; else, when Luther appeared, and Zuinglius innovated, their Disciples must have made this Declaration: This is, what we always believed; we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith, and from the Pope, and from Bishops, and from the Real Presence, and from Confession, and from Communion under one Kind, and from Relics, and from Images, and from Prayer to Saints, and from the Merit of Works. Where are those, who spoke in this manner? Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them? On the contrary, are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak, as newly retired out of the Darkness of the Papacy, and does not Luther glory at their head, that he was the first, who declared the Gospel? All the Reformed grant it, except Zuinglius, who disputes this Honour with him. He in the mean time acknowledges, that he was the sincerest Monk, the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice, and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists. Do not the others use the same Language? Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes, who not only durst not declare their Faith, whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church, but after they were gone out of it, durst not say, they had always held in their heart the same Faith? But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation. In the Definition, that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church, he says, 'Tis the true Believers, who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministry, which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one. If before the Refomation there was no such Church, the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was; and if there were such a Church, where Profession was made of the Truth, and which by her Ministry gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one, what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds' Separation? Is it perhaps, that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass, and teach all the Doctrines, which our Reformed have alleged for the Cause of their Rupture? To think it only, would be the greatest of Absurdities. But it may be, in teaching all these Doctrines they had not yet thought of excommunicating those, that opposed them. Whence then come so many Anathemaes against ●erengarius, against the Waldenses and Albigenses, against John Wickcliff and John Hus, whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors? What then, had not those, who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth, that is, according to Mr. Claude, of the Reformed Doctrine, yet found the Invention of making a Schism, and was all the World agreed to suffer them? But should all this be true, the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better: since still, before it had any Existence, there must be acknowledged a Ministry, where without teaching, either that the Sinner is justified by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice, or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter, or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordinate Prayer, which is addressed to Saints, or in fine without any of those Articles, which distinguish our Reformed from us, althô they place their Salvation in them; they ceased not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary fo● the Spiritual Life, without depriving them of any one. What has the Reformation wrought, if all these things are not necessary Aliments; if even the Sacred Cup, and consequently the Supper, which, according to our Pretended Reformed, cannot subsist without the Cup, is none of these Aliments, necessary to the Christians Faith? How they have tormented themselves in vain, and how unadvisedly they have caused so many Troubles, and shed so much Blood, if these things are not necessary! Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduced to the Apostles Creed, or in general to the Scripture. But the Socinian Church remins this Creed, and this Scripture: so that the Ministry of a Socinian Church would, according to this Rule, have furnished the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments, without depriving them of any one. What then at last will these necessary Aliments be; and if they are furnished, without the Substraction of any one, only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture, in what Heresy have they been wanting? The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself, Man. Ans. 4. q. the more he is entangled. For after he has established as a Fundamental Truth, that GOD always preservos in the Ministry all, that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers, and bring them to Salvation, he says, it does not thence follow, that the Ministry is exempt from all Error, even in its Decisions; but that, whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience, or even concern Salvation, the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil, and preserve Purity. Thus all would be reduced to Liberty of Conscience; and what Error soever is taught in the Ministry, provided they force none to follow their Decisions, and suffer all contrary Doctrine good or bad, 'tis enough to make Mr. Claude say, that the Ministry furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one. But according to this Pretention, there would be no Society, whose Ministry should more furnish all necessary Aliments, than a Society of Socinians, who brag, that they will not damn any one. If it be said amongst our Reformed, that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST, 'tis also said there, that 'twas no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries, which, as they say, reigned every where. And if they will in fine imagine, that 'tis more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians, than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions, which they call Idolatry, besides all the Subtractions, we have just now shown there according to the Principles of the Reformed, and even before their Reformation; it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe, that it would be more easy for these true Believers, who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrines under a Ministry full of Errors, to cut off, what is superfluous, than to supply, what is defective; or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing, than by adding, the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those, that diminish, as those that add. 'Twould be better than for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉, and the perpetual Visibility of the Church, and 〈…〉 'tis in fine sufficient, all this Visibility being 〈◊〉, that GOD has preserved the Holy Scripture, where the Faithful, whether concealed, or open, whether dispersed, or reunited, whether always subsisting, or sometimes wholly extinct, shall clearly find, according to his Principles, without any need of the Ministry, all necessary Aliments. For also of, what use is a Ministry to them, in which Error prevail? And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them? This is, what the 〈◊〉 should say, to avoid the Inconveniences, into which we cast them. But Mr. Claude neither durst, nor ever will dare to do it; because he would find in it Inconveniences, yet more insupportable, and more visible. 'Tis in a word, because he sound, that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency, as I may say, of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministry, they must at last destroy the Scripture itself. In effect, Rom. 1. ●. 10. he found in the Scripture, that the Scripture ought not to be, Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republic in Idea, but of a People always subsisting, which this Scripture calls the Church. He has found, that this People ought to be always visible on the earth, since they ought not only to believe with the Heart, but also to confes● with the Mouth, and, to use his Terms, make Profession of the Christian Truth. He has found, that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People, to be their unchangeable Rule; that there should be always Interpreters established by GOD, the Author of this Scripture, as well as the Founder of this People; and that so the Ministry, destined by GOD to this Interpretation, was as eternal, as the Church itself. If he writ these great Words, GOD always preserves in the public Ministry all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation, Man. Ans. 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry. Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministry to itself, it must fall. If then it be certain, that GOD will always keep there all, that is necessary to Salvation, GOD himself must have promised it, and the Eternity of the Ministry cannot be founded but on this Promise. Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words, Thou art Peter, Matt. xuj. v. 18. and the rest. 'Tis thence he concludes with us, that JESUS CHRIST, in speaking to a Church, that confesses▪ and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers, since 'tis by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles; to a Church, joined to an exterior Ministry, and using the Power of the Keys, has promised her, that Hell should not prevail against her; consequently supported by this Ministry: and therefore he affirms, that GOD preserves always in the public Ministry all, that is necessary to the Salvation of Gods' Children. Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's, Matt. xxviii. v. 19, 20. directed to those, that baptise, and those, that teach, and concluded by these powerful Words, And, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the World, makes Mr. Claude as well as us say, that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her, Ibid. to baptise with her, and to teach with her, without interruption, even to the end of the World. Thus, according to this Minister, this Promise regards the Church, as joined to the Ecclesiastical Ministry, which makes him also conclude, that JESUS CHRIST promises, the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministry, but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World. In fine, Eph. iv. Man. Ans. Ibid. a third Passage, to wit, that of St. Paul to the Ephefians, makes him conclude with us, that the Ministry shall last even to the end of the World, and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST, and bring all the Elect to the Perfection, of which St. Paul speaks. GOD then must concern himself with it, without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministry. After he had thus begun to believe, he should have finish● the Work, and given Glory to GOD even to the end. Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD, when he said, that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity, to preserve always, manger the Efforts of Hell, a Church, which should confess the Truth, and an exterior Ministry, which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments, necessary to Salvation. He ought then to proceed to the end, and believe, that the same Hand, which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministry, as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments, would hinder it also from prevailing so far, as to make any Error have dominion in it; and that so much the rather, as what he believed, manifestly comprehends, what is left to believe. For if he believed on the Faith of the Divine Promise, that there should be always a Church, with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty, that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church? he aught by the same means to believe, that he would teach there all Truth, JESUS CHRIST not being come, Joh. xuj. v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths, but to teach them all Truth, as himself declares in his Gospel. Nor would it be to any purpose to say, that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministry only sufficient Aliments; which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith, as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans. For JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine containing nothing but what is profitable, Is. 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word, I am the Lord, which teacheth thee profitable things; if we find not in the Ministry JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine entire, we shall never find that Degree required by Mr. Claude, nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection, of which St. Paul speaks. 'Twould be then something, to believe, that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministry all essential Truths: for 'twould be to acknowledge in the Church, with which JESUS CHRIST teaches, a beginning of infallible Authority, by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity. But to finish the Work, and not to believe by halves, we must also believe, that JESUS CHRIST, in teaching, teaches all, and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility. Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock: This Ecclesiastical Ministry is of men subject to fall: one may doubt after them: for this would be to yield to the Temptation, and no longer to believe the Promise. We must say, 'tis of men, with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be, and teach always: then manger human weakness, and all the Endeavours of Hell, Rom. iv. v. 18. against hope we believe in hope, that we shall find eternally in their common Preaching, not some Truths, or only the principal Truths, but the entire Fullness of Christian Truths. Whatever they say, 'tis not to believe blindly to believe thus, or 'tis to believe blindly, like Abraham, on the word of GOD himself, and the Faith of his Promises. How insupportable then is the Doctrine of Mr. Claude, who, after he has acknowledged so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministry: plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect, whence he was beginning to get out, shows us the Ministry so abandoned by JESUS CHRIST, that there is no Remedy for its Errors, but by deposing all at once all those, which are in the Chair. What agreement have these Promises, so well acknowledged, with so universal a Corruption? Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself, for to come unto us: after having acknowledged, in virtue of the divine Promises, the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministry in this Estate, he represents to us; to find there always all Truth, he needs only consider, that this imperfect Assistance, and, as one may say, this half Succour of JESUS CHRIST to his Church, is neither beseeming his Wisdom, nor his Power; being moreover assured, that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministry, but by the full manifestation of the Truth; revealed by GOD, agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend ourselves to every man's Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv. v. 2, 3, 4. Whence he concludes presently after, that if our Gospel, that is most certainly our Preaching, be hid, it is hid to them, that are lost; to the end he may make us understand, that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholic Church, has no obscurity but in Rebels, in whom the Devil, the God of this World, and the Spirit of Pride, hath blinded the minds, as the same Apostle proceeds, l●st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them. 'Tis now easy to see, that all Mr. Claude's Subtleties serve only to confound him. What avails it him, that, acknowledging the Church's Visibility, he endeavoured to elude the Consequences of this Doctrine, by reducing the Church to the true Believers? I am contented: wherever he finds Church, let him understand the true Believers; let him even explicate if he will, these Words, Mat. xviii. v. 4. Tell it unto the Church, Tell it to the true Believers; single them out amongst the Troop, and judge before the Lord: or because, as himself acknowledges, here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors, Man's. Ans. 4. q. let him say, that these Pastors represent the true Believers, which are not known, and act in their Name. What will these Explications after all advantage him, since that in fine, according to his own Doctrine, this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible, and these true Believers always under a public Ministry from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated, that even after these Words, Tell it unto the Church, but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him he unto the● as an 〈◊〉 man, to show how redoubtable the Church's Judgement is, he immediately expresses the efficacy of the Ministry by these Words: Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and the rest, which every one knows. Thus I conclude always equally, that the Church, which we must show without interruption, whether it be only the true Believers, or if they will, only the Elect, or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixed with them, Matt. xiii. v. 21. and those, that believe for a while, according to the expression of the Gospel, is a Church always gathered under a visible Ministry, and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors, where the Truth is preached, not in secret, Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops. Let them turn, as much as they will, 'tis a Church of this Nature and this Constitution, we must at all times show, by Mr. Claude's Confession. To make her disappear for one sole Moment, is utterly to annihilate her, and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel, in what they have most sensible, and most apparent: to make her appear always, is invindibly to establish the Roman Church. Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care, besides that it is false, leaves the Difficulty entire, and his Cause in as had a Condition, as it was before his Defence. But to the end they may not say, we are contented with refuting him, let us tell him the Truth in few words. The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers, and those principally, who persevering to the end, abide eternally in JESUS CHRIST, and JESUS CHRIST in them, that is to say, the Elect. The Wicked, which envinron them, are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church, as the Nails, as the Hair, as an Eye put out, and a withered Arm, which perhaps receives no more nourishment, is comprehended under the Name of the Body. All is for these true Believers. The Ministry, under which they live, is theirs in the Sense, 1 Cor. three v. 22. that St. Paul said: All is yours, whether Paul, or Apollo's, or Cephas. Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them, or that they alone can set them up, and depose them. GOD forbidden: This Pastoral and Apostolic Power comes from him, Joh. xx. v. 21. who said: As my Father hath sent me, I also send you. This is, what makes St. Paul say in the same place, 1 Cor. three v. 4, 5. Who is then Apollo's? and who is Paul? The Ministers of him, whom you have believed, and to every one, as our Lord hath given; to you to be Believers, and to us to be Pastors. Wherefore he adds farther: v. 9 We are Gods' Laborers, or to say better, Co-operators. These Ministers and these Workers, established by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful, and in this Sense are theirs, because they are their Servants by JESUS CHRIST, established in the Chair, not for themselves, for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers, 2 Cor. iv. v. 5. but for to edify the Saints. He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints, need not torment himself to distinguish them from others: for, though they are not known and perfectly discerned but by GOD alone, we are sure to find them under the public Ministry, and in the exterior Profession of the Catholic Church. We need then only stay there, for to be assured to find the Saints; because this Profession, and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers, which never fails to engender some, keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society, where they received it. Wherefore when JESUS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church, he comprehends all in this Word, and rendering by virtue of this Promise the Church infallible exteriorly in the manifestation of the Truth, renders her interiorly always fruitful. If the Preachers of the Truth are by their corrupt Life unworthy of their Ministry, GOD ceases not to make use of them for to sanctify his Faithful, for he is able to vivify, even by the Dead; and a putrified Arm may become active in his hands. Besides, these true Believers, known to GOD alone, animate all the Ecclesiastical Ministry: a small Number of these concealed Saints often suffices to render the Prayers of a whole Church efficacious; the Conversion of Sinners will be often assoon the Effect of their secret Groans, as the Fruit of the most illuminated Preach. Wherefore St. Augustin attributes the wholesome Effects of the Ministry to these good Souls, for whom and by whom the Holy Ghost is f●lly in the Church. But that the Ecclesiastical Power depends on them, is what neither St. Augustin, nor any of the Orthodox Doctors ever taught; and Mr. Claude, who citys them, understands them not. I will be fully seen, when he shall publish his writing; 'tis sufficient for us in the mean time, to have shown, that he is of those and GOD grant he be not so to the end, Tit. iii. v. 2. that he is, I say, of those, of whom St. Paul speaks, that condemn themselves. 'Tis in effect according to this Apostle, the true Character of all Heresies; and never any Society more visibly bore this Character set down by St. Paul, than the Pretended Reformed Church. She condemns herself, Vid. Sup. 1. Ref. p. 58. when not daring to affirm, that she is infallible, she sees herself nevertheless constrained to act, as if she were, and to bear witness to the Catholic Church by imitating her. She condemns herself, 2. Ref. p. 64. when she raises all the particular persons, she teaches, above her own Judgement; and forcing them, how ignorant soever they find themselves, to examine after her, without rendering them capable, she renders them indocil and presumptuous. She condemns herself, 3, 4, 5, 6. & 7. Ref. p. 73. & seq. since Vaunting of the Scripturus, she finds not in herself Authority enough to make them be received by her Followers on her Word, but leaves her own Children, to whom she presents them to be read, in the Uncertainties of an human Faith. She condemns herself, 8. Ref. p. 88 when forced to own, that she was not established but by breaking with all the Christian Churches, which were in the World, she gives herself the proper Character of all false Churches. In fine she condemns herself, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. Ref. p. 91. & seq. when forced to acknowledge the perpetual Visibility of the Church in the Indefectibility of the Ministry, she cannot maintain herself without acknowledging, besides in the Ministry an universal Corruption, nor without authorising private persons against all the Succession of the Apostolic Order. Now if she condemns herself in so many manners, how happy would it be for her to condemn herself in fine, by returning into the Bosom of the Catholic Church, which never ceases to recall her to her Unity. Let these Gentlemen no longer speak to us of the Abuses, which make us groan. The Evils of the Church are badly remedied by adding that of Schism. Are they so happy, or, to say better, so haughty and blind, that they find nothing to be lamented amongst themselves? and will they authorise so many Sects, gone forth of their Bosom, who, complaining of their Disorders in the same Spirit of Pride and Discontent, with which they heretofore so much exaggerated ours, daily separate from them, as they did from us? Why do they not rather hear Charity itself, Unity itself, and the Catholic Church, which tells them by the Mouth of St. Cyprian: Cyp. Ep. 43. ad. Confess. Persuade not yourselves, our dear Brothers and dear Children, that you can ever defend the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST by separating from his Flock, from his Unity, and from his Peace. Good Soldiers, that complain of the Disorders, they see in the Army, aught to stay in the Field, to remedy them by common advice under the Authority of the Captain, and not go thence, to expose the Army thus disunited to the Invasions of the Enemy. Since then the Ecclesiastical Unity ought not to be broken, and that beside we cannot leave the Church to go to you, Return, return rather to the Church your Mother, and our Fraternity: to which we exhort you with all the earnestness of a true brotherly Love. Amen. FINIS.