TWO CONFERENCES BETWEEN Some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, Concerning their different tenants: ONE Whereof, was appointed with m BURTON, and a number of his Church, and the other, with Mr. John Goodwin, and some of his Church; which was occasioned by a Gentlewoman being a Member thereof, whose Husband is one of the Separation: with a Letter written to that purpose.  
NOW Published by D. B. for resolution of those who are doubtful, in all or any of the matters here controverted; chiefly concerning the High places, which are usually called Churches, and now of late by the soldiers, Steeple-houses.  
LONDON, Printed by John Clowes, and are to be sold at the Blue-anchor in Cornhill, 1650.   

To the impartial Reader.  
THere being a meeting appointed between Mr. Burton, with some of his Congregation, and some of my judgement in matters of Religion, that both they and we might confer together, and the better know the difference of our professions and practices, and so endeavour (if possible) to be of our mind, concerning the truth; at which meeting, we expected accordingly to have had all matters in controversy between us, fully and lovingly, debated; but the issue did not prove, as we could have wished.  
Again, upon an other occasion of some difference also, in certain points of Religion, between a Sea Captain and his wife, he being one of our Members, and she of Mr. John Goodwins: a meeting likewise was appointed between him, with some of his Church, and some of ours, at which meeting those matters were discussed at large, though many lets (as in the former) were cast in the way, to hinder both the progress and conclusion thereof.  
Now, seeing the first of these conferences was above six years ago, and the last about one year ago, and both of them written when they were recent in the memory, it may thereby appear, how unwilling all or any of us (though having the better part, as we hope) have been, to divulge them or any of them to public view.  
But now upon further consideration, and weighing the matter more seriously, (as in aballance) I find that in the one scale, all the prejudice and discontent, which the other party may possibly take without any just cause, in that we thus show here to the world, both their parts and ours, to be all very light; in comparison of the generality of the people's great ignorance, and manifold doubts in the other scale; who are still captivated in Babel, and both misled and blindfolded, not only by the Clergy in general, who succeed their Lords and Masters, the Bishops, (howbeit the Servant be not a-above his Lord) but even still for sinister ends, by the most smooth and subtle sort of them, who make a greater show of godliness, and reformation than the rest, such us this Mr. Goodwin is, and Mr. Burton was.  
This ignorance and doubting doth consist in divers particulars concerning the sacred worship of God, chiefly the high places, otherwise called Churches and Steeple-houses, here in both conferences controverted: although their national Church-worship, worshippers, Ministry, Government, and maintenance, are there by the scope of all to be observed: in which and many other, most of the people are also very ignorant and doubtful.  
And considering, as on the one side, that no man ought to hide his talon, nor be a self-lover; but every Christian especially, is to dispense whatsoever measure of gift he hath received, to the good of others; so on the other side, what great need there is still (as was said) both of information and resolution in the aforesaid matters, (notwithstanding all the floods of books now a days, concerning other subjects.  
And although Mr. Chidley (my yokefellow in the first, and both for himself and me in the last,) was somewhat averse to the publishing of the business, yet since we are of one mind in the particulars thereof, the rest of us have thus brought both Conferences to public observation, chiefly concerning the high-places, for though we have often heard, that howbeit Rome was not built in one day, (as the proverb is) yet a greater number of Romish houses, such as the Monasteries, abbeys and nunneries both in Scotland and England, were demolished in one day formerly, than there have been Crosses pulled down, either on Steeples or streets, in a hundred of these days, now wherein we live, notwithstanding there were both far more lets, and fewer pretences of reformation, in those days then in these.  
Thus, having no further occasion here, to hinder thee from this good occasion itself, I refer thee to take hold thereof, and of all things else, which may add to thy knowledge and sanctification, as I wish to do myself, whiles there is any time or opportunity yet remaining: only at present, I entreat thee, that what degree of profit soever thou reapest hereby, thou wilt give unto God (as the only true owner) the whole praise: and as for me his weak instrument in this behalf, if I incur no just dispraise, I shall rest fully and gladly contented,  
Thine, as thou both desirest and endeavourest, not to follow any man whosoever, further than that Man followeth Christ. DAVID BROWN.   

Two Conferences, between some of those that are called Separatists and Independents, concerning their different tenants.  
THere being a Conference in London, appointed between some of those Christians, usually called the Separation, and Mr. Burton, a Pastor of an independent Church, concerning some differences between them, and divers Separatists coming to his house in friday-street, for that purpose, upon the 17. day of the 4. month, 1645. being the 5. day of the week, after Church-exercise, and only three of them having occasion to speak, viz. Mr. Brown, Mr. Duppa, and Mr. Chidley; and the said Mr. Brown, immediately after the Conference, writing the sum of what he and the said Mr. Burton spoke, which to this time he hath kept secret, and it might be he would have done still, were it not that by the entreaty of certain friends, and to give them and others some satisfaction, concerning the high places of England, lately debated again between the said Mr. Chidley and Mr. John Goodwin, he hath now divulged the same to public view: together with that other Conference of late, which was occasioned by a Member of our Congregation, whose wife was a Member of Mr. Goodwins Church, and desired to be satisfied, whether her Husband or she was in the truest Church-state.  
The first Question was, whether Mr. Burton and his Church were in the order of the Gospel, that the Separation might know certainly how to esteem them, entitle them, and have fellowship with them; and whether they were so indeed, as they professed to be in word, and Mr. Burton answering affirmatively: it was in the next place demanded, how then did his practice and theirs so much differ, both their professions and Covenants seeming to be alike, and therefore desiring to have his practice compared with his Covenant or profession, or any of them, with theirs of the Separation, which he absolutely refused, saying, he and his Church were a free and independent body or Corporation, and therefore not bound to make account to any other Church or people in the world, although never so famous, and one of his elders added, that the very (avaliers or Malignants themselves, gave them the Title of Separatists.  
But it being objected to Mr. Burton, that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediate Apostles, to give a reason of his faith, stop the mouths of gainsayers, yea and approve himself to those that are without, far more to those that are within, even to be indeed as he professeth himself and the rather, in that he is a teacher and guide to others; as the first Church of the Gentiles at Antiochia, thought it rather an honour then any disparagement, to ask resolution of some doubts at the Church of the Jews, who were before them in the faith and order of the Gospel at Jerusalem, though some of the Apostles were present at both; and the rather, we hope you will do, said Mr. Brown, because we come to you in love, esteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding, (I mean at the Universities) in regard both of your sufferings and writings, far beyond what they have either acted or suffered, especially for that public Sermon, you made in the pillory-pulpit at Westminster, three hours long, even resisting unto blood against the evil of the times, unto which I was a witness, and is a motive of my coming to you at this time. He answered that his profession and practice were agreeable, and that he and his people entered, according to the rules prescribed in the Gospel, and so walked for aught he knew, as many can bear witness, and we also may, if we will come and hear him.  
To the which or the like words, one of his Elders added that John Baptist sent two of his Disciples to ask our Saviour, whether he was the Messiah, or if they should look for another, and our Saviour not answering them directly, bids them tell their Master what they heard and saw, yea, and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars, which he only expressed without either inference or application; so his meaning (to our apprehension) was, that if we were not pleased with what they professed or practised, concerning the worship of God, we might rather come and see, and hear and observe, their works of conversion, and manner of conversation, then to reason the matter; but we desiring first to confer some few times, to see if we could possibly agree in the truth, perceiving their unwillingness, by some harsh speeches and carriages, did apprehend it would be to small purpose.  
Upon the hearing of these or words to that purpose, Mr. Burton said, that he had renounced his Ministry and Orders which he had of the Church of England, and that he witnessed by his suffering, against the Ministry, constitution, worship, Government, and high-places of that national Church, and that there was no holiness in those places.  
And upon his justifying himself and his people in all things, by our saviour's practice and his Apostles, it was demanded by Mr. Brown; what meaneth then the blearing of those sheep, and the lowing of them Oxen daily in our ears if you do, and obey all things so well (as both Saul & the angel of Laodicea, & many others spoke of themselves) what meaneth then (I say) both your preaching, and all your Members hearing in those Parish-Assemblies; is it not a halting between two opinions, and that ye show yourselves, neither to be hot nor could in so doing?  
He answered that our Saviour and his Apostles, resorted to the Synagogues of the Jews, and why might not they go as well to the Parish-Assemblies?  
But saith Mr. Brown, you must neither compare the Jewish Church with the English; nor yet the Synagogues of the one, with the high places of the other; but rather the high places of England, with those in Judah, in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation; so it appeareth by your practice, whatsoever by your words you profess, that you are still in Babel, absolving the wicked (sparing as it were the fat) by your presence, and condemning the just in Zion, (whom ye esteem to be lean) by your absence, though ye know obedience to be better than sacrifice.  
He and another of his Elders answered, that neither did he preach, nor they hear in every common Parish-Church, but such as they chused above others, neither did they hear in those high-places, as men were in discharge of their Ministerial function, but only in the exercise of their gifts, and not so much for edification, as that they might get some matter of accusation against them by hearing them, and thereof make some profitable use, when they saw a convenient occasion.  
Then it was demanded, how he and other Independents could justify their unequal yoking, with those in the Parish-Assemblies, whom they judge to be only of the world, and not of the Church, as themselves profess to be; and though they partake in the word & prayer with them, in the public high places, yet they are not so thankful, as to admit those of the Assemblies to partake with them at their private administering the seals, as if that private separation at that time, or in that place, would alter the national Church constitution of them and all the root together in one.  
Whereas, they should have no spiritual fellowship at all, with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them, and witness against them, as both Iddo the Prophet did at Bethel, and as the Jews were commanded of God, not to go to Bethaven, Beersheba, Bethel, nor Gilgal, yea and we find it recorded, as a But or Exception, even against some of the Kings of Judah, for not abolishing those high places; whereby not only evil itself, but all the appearances and occasions of evil might be removed; so that whatsoever place hath an Idolatrous institution or dedication, cannot by any means be purged, but in altering the form thereof, by utter demolition, and scarce applying the same to a civil use, or to be a common habitation.  
To which was answered, that those places might still be well used by God's people, though they have been abused by Heathens and Papists.  
Whereupon occasion was taken by Mr. Brown, (seeing them so unwilling to confess the truth) to clear those two points, both of a Church-state; and place of meeting, expecting a satisfactory answer of them, at least for the hearers sake.  
He affirmed, that in regard the Temple of Jerusalem, was built according to God's own direction, and therefore a holy work, always capable to be purged, and reduced to the first principle of integrity, if ever it should be abused by Idolatry; as it was polluted, purged, and reduced divers times, according as the Magistrates and people following their example, were disposed to good or evil, as upon divine record, in the books of the Kings and Chronicles doth appear.  
So the Churches constituted by the immediate Apostles, according to Christ's institution, consisting all of faithful people, according to visibility, (referring secret things to God) and therefore, all proceeding from a true and holy original, whensoever they should be corrupted either by sinful matter, or corrupt practices, as in Corinth by that incestuous person, or in Galatia by that false Doctrine, they were still purgeable, and were indeed purged. for otherwise a little leaven, would have soured the whole lump.  
And according both to the Temple and Churches purifying, Adam the first man, being created holy and unblameable, if he should fall, (as he did indeed) to sin and apostasy, he was (by means of his original holiness by creation) restored by the second Adam Christ, to his former integrity.  
But neither material Temples, built by the man of sin and child of pardition, nor by the Heathens, and dedicated to Idolatry, and entitled by the name of Saints departed, although otherwise used to the worship of God, as the Jews did sacrifice still in the high-places of Judah, after King Manasses conversion and reformation, 2 Chron. 33. 17. nor yet assemblies gathered or constituted by human invention, contrary to the pattern of the Churches mentioned in the Gospel, can be reduced to any purity or integrity, because they never had any, but must needs still continue in apostasy and Idolatry, (as they were made thereof at the first, until there be a visitation or dissolution) as we have woeful experience, even yet in these days: which were pretended to be days of reformation, and might be yet so indeed, if it should please God to honour those whom he hath set in Authority, with so excellent, worthy, and glorious a work, beyond all other works; as he did that worthy young King Josiah.  
To those grounds thus, or to this effect laid, Mr. Burton and his congregation, in stead of answering, opposing, applying, or any wise clearing themselves, (in a harsh and angry manner) propounded three questions to the Separatists.  
First, who built the Synagogues of the Jews? To which he answered, In that the Scripture is silent, who built the Synagogues (except only a Centurion, who loved the Jewish Nation built one) it doth not become any man to demand the question; neither is it necessary to edification or salvation; but we neither read nor hear of any dedication of them to Idolatry, which the Scottish Covenant abjureth, as well as they do the Romish Hierarchy, worldly monarchy, blasphemous liturgy, canonising of Saints, and baptising of bells; And it sufficeth us, that the Synagogues were lawful meeting places, for the more frequent and convenient practice of the Jewish Religion, except what was appropriated to the Temple, at certain times of the year, or else neither our Saviour nor his Apostles would have countenanced those places with their presence; nor King David in the psalms complained of the desolation thereof.  
His second Question was, Might no meeting-houses be built, to the Churches of the Saints now under the Gospel? To which the Separatists answered, that there both have been, and still are many lawful meeting-places, built by lawful Authority for the Churches of the Saints under the Gospel, for keeping them both from the injury of weather, and for their more quiet and peaceable practising of the Ordinances, being sheltered and hidden, both from the open and secret enemies of God and his truth, besides the dwelling, houses of Members and wellwillers, and wherein also are Churches, both habiting and conversing, and all without either dedication, consecration, or any kind of superstition.  
And his third question was, Whether were those which we call high-places, and he still comparing to the Synagogues, consecrated before, in, or after they were built? The Separatists answered, that Mr. Burton himself knew better, who built and dedicated those shops of Antichrist (wherein he hath lived all his days) than the Separatists, who were mere strangers to such things, and unto which, both he and his Congregation do still bring all their Tithes, Sacrifices, Gifts, and Oblations; but for the hearers sake, the Separatists said, (according as they understood) that the full dedication of the house, (whatsoever be of the ground) must be at the accomplishing: but in regard both of intention, earnest, and beginning of action, are completed at the first stone laying, as the Bishops usually laid the first stone, and made the blessed (or rather cursed) beginning, and so they and the workmen proceeding and ending equally, the one with the other, by Masses, matins, litanies, or such like abominations, whereby the Popish Clergy (Still strengthened with civil Authority) do practice their devotions in all their consecrations.  
And in end, after Mr. Burton did withdraw to refresh himself, he being in exercise with his congregation before this appointed disputation, amongst some other speeches had with the Elders and other Members of his Church in his absence, they alleged, that if we should look so narrowly and precisely, to Antichristian or Heathenish dedication of places, why do we offer any service or sacrifice to God at all, either in England, Scotland, France or Ireland; for they were all four dedicated to Saints departed, such as St. George, St. Andrew, St. Denis, and St. Patrick?  
It was answered, that those Nations and all others, were created and built by the great CREATOR, builder, and maker of all things, and ordained for his people to live in, yea even the wicked as well as the godly, all having equal right by the benefit of Creation, even the tares as well as the wheat in the field of the world, until the havest of the great day; but he never ordained any Idolatrous places which are built and dedicated by man, (or by that man of sin, and child of perdition) to be worshipped in, but hath destinated such works, yea and (workers also (except repentance intervene,) to destruction, and accounteth all kind of Sacrifices, upon whatsoever pretence there offered, to be like King jeroboam's practice at Dan and Bethel, (who made Israel to sin) even abominations of desolation.  

Some of those Scriptures which concern these matters.  
Hos. 4. 15. Though thou Israel play the harlot, yet let not ●udah offend, and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The Lord liveth.  
Amos 4. 4. 5. Come to Bethel and transgress, at Gilgal multiply transgressions; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your Tithes after three years. And offer a Sacrifice of thanks giving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings; for this liketh you, O ye Children of Israel, saith the Lord God.  
2 Chron. 14. 2. 3, 4, 5. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. For he took away the Altars of the strange gods, and the high-places, he broke down the Images, and cut down the Groves. And he took away out of all the Cities of Judah, the high places and the Images: and the Kingdom was quiet before him.  
Levit. 26. 29, 30. And ye shall eat the flesh of your Sons, and the flesh of your Daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your Images, and cast your Carcases, upon the Carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.  
2 Chron. 34. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 1 Kings, 13. 2. 2 King's 23. 13. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.    

Mr. Chidley's Letter to Mr. Goodwin, And the sum of the Conference which followed thereupon.  
Mr. Goodwin.  
THese are to certify you, that Mrs. Goodsone who is one of your Congregation is wife to one who is a Member with us of the Separation, and she findeth herself aggrieved that her Husband is not free to communicate with her in spiritual worship, now she would willingly know wherein the difference lies that we cannot communicate with you.  
Therefore we have occasion to inquire into the matter, form, ministry, worship and government of your Church, and shall desire satisfaction therein, that it is according to the rule, before we can join in Communion therewith, or with any of the Members thereof, knowing that our Lord Christ requireth separation in Worship, not in part, but wholly, both from persons and things polluted with diabolical uncleanness, and to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness, both of flesh and spirit, and to perfect holiness in his fear, which is the desire of the soul of him who is  
Your true friend, ready to receive your manifestation when you shall appoint that I may come to you, or you to me, SAMUEL CHIDLEY. 13th day of the 6th month, 1648.  
Upon the 22. of August, 1648. the meeting was appointed to be, unto which divers persons came, at which Mr. Chidley would have insisted upon the matter and form, &c.  
And first upon the matter, but Mr. Goodwin would not debate that, nor other things there desired to be handled, but said, he would go a readier way to work, and make an end of the business without that; for saith he, suppose it be granted, that all our matter be so corrupt, as you presuppose it is, yet it is lawful for your Members to communicate with ours; for saith he, it is lawful for a man to communicate with one whom he doubts whether he be a Believer or not, but this was denied by Mr. Chidley, from two considerations.  
First, That whatsoever is doubtful is not to be practised, though it be a thing indifferent, because it is not of faith, and therefore a sin, because whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  
Secondly, much more is he to forbear that which is contrary to the word of God, as to communicate with one of whom we have not good testimony of his life and conversation, and that the work of grace is wrought upon him, that he is effectually called, and separated from Idolatry, and cleaveth unto the Way of Christ in purity. Now said he, we know you not, ye are strangers to us.  
We are not come to accuse, but to hear your manifestation for our satisfaction, that ye are fit matter for the Church of Christ, and we hope we shall not break Communion for every circumstance of difference amongst us, if it do not make against the abosolute being of a Saint.  
Then Mr. Goodwin said, I grant that a man is not to practise a thing if he be doubtful of it, but howsoever, he that is doubtful is to give good reason of his doubt.  
Then the Gentleman that doubted, was called upon to give his Reasons, why he could not communicate with his wife, who told them that the Lord had showed him the evil of the Church of England, and that he was joined to a separated Congregation, and thought that he should not be fit matter for the Church to communicate with, if he should hold Communion with the Members of Mr. Goodwins Church, because Mr. Goodwins people's practice was to preach and hear in the Parrish-Churches of England, and to Worship in the idols Temples, and to baptise the Children of unbelievers, and such like.  
Then after some further discourse, they showed themselves to be willing to debate the business concerning the high places; whereupon the question was stated.  
Whether it were lawful to worship in the idols Temples? The sum of the Conference briefly followeth. 
Mr. John Goodwin.  The Apostle to Timothy, (Tim. 2. 8.) saith, I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. And thereupon Mr. Goodwin argued, that God's word had made no restriction, and therefore that we are not to restrain it, and that therefore this word: (everywhere) in this place is to be taken for all manner of places without exception.  
To which Mr. Chidley answered, that God himself had made restrictions, showing that we are not to worship him in idols Temples, for he hath commanded them to be quite pulled down, Numb. 33. 52. and that command is not taken away, but remaineth in full force to this day; This word every in this place is to be restrained, as in other places, where it's said, Children obey your Parents in all things, Col. 3. 20. Servants obey your Masters in all things; and every Creature of God is good, and all things are lawful: In all which we are to know, how far such words are restrained, and how far not; it extendeth, and is to be restrained to lawful things, and so this place where he saith, pray everywhere, that is, in every place which is not prohibited by God's Law, but it's prohibited by God's Law for the Saints to worship in Idols Temples, for he hath commanded, they should be quite plucked down, saying ye shall quite pluck down all their high places, Numb. 33. 52. because they are polluted with diabolical uncleanness, now this Command was never abrogated, as I said before: But Mr. Goodwin said there is no Guilt of sin upon the high places, neither is there any sin imputed to them, but its a sin to hold restriction of places for God's worship  
To which Mr. Chidley answered, That God accounts them diabolically unclean, and calleth them by the name of sin itself. as he calleth the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, Hosea 10. 8. And if it be a sin to hold restriction of places for the worship of God, than it is a sin to uphold that restriction, by worshipping God in those places that are so restrained.  
It's you that uphold distinction of places said Mr. Goodwin, not we who meet in them; we hold all places alike.  
Mr. Chidley answered again, we uphold not the distinction of places, but it's you by your worshipping, and pleading for those places that are restrained by men.  
Saith Mr. Goodwin, even now you would maintain distinction of places, and now you say, you uphold no distinction of places. Mr. Chidley said, its true in a sense, we uphold them not at all; but when they have set up idols Temples, we do hold that those places are made diabolical by them, because wicked men have dedicated them to their Idols: no more doth God himself in the first place make such distinctions of places as they make, but when once they have put a diabolical uncleanness upon the same, God declares then that they are unclean, and calleth them sin, and commandeth them to be pulled down, and so we distinguish not in the first place, but they make the places to be distinct diabolically by their dedication of those places to Idols, and so the distinction is theirs, not ours. God himself made all things good at the first, and made no devil, but made Angels, and they made themselves devils, so he made all things good, and made no Temple of idols, or Temple of devils, so concerning men he professeth, that he desireth not the death of a sixner, and why will ye die O House of Israel? to show them that their damnation is of themselves, and yet elsewhere he showeth in respect of the evil of punishment, there is no evil in the City but he doth it; but they bring it upon themselves in the first place. Therefore when they have made Idols, or Idols Temples, God owneth them not, but in his just judgement punisheth them, and commands them to be demolished; and we would have them to be destroyed, according to God's Commands, and the example of King Josiah, 2. Chron. 34. and other holymen of God, and therefore we are far from upholding them: yet hold them the Temples of devils, till they are pulled down. It's impossible said Mr. Goodwin, to prove that all the Temples in the Land are dedicated to idols; but what if they were, is it unlawful to worship in them therefore?  
2. These Steeple-houses here, were not dedicated to devils, but some to Christ, others of them are dedicated to God, himself, even to the Trinity, and most of them are dedicated to Saints, &c.  
3. Christ came into the World to take away the distinction between places and places, and to make all places alike; and to deny this, tendeth to deny that Christ Jesus is come into the world, and to establish Jewishme.  
4. When he came into the world, he dissolved the uncleanness which God had made and put upon the Creatures, how much more than the uncleanness which men had put on those places of theirs built of stone.  
5. By the same grounds we may refuse to worship God in any part of the land: suppose this whole Kingdom be dedicated to St. George, as France to St. Dennis, & all the houses dedicated all over the Kingdom, as once its said to be wholly dedicated to St. George; must we not worship God in the Kingdom, because of that.  
6. In John the 4. its clear that Jesus Christ speaking to the woman of Samaria, showeth that all places are now alike, and as there is no place unto which the worship of God is bound, so there is no place, though an idols Temple, but that men may lawfully worship and serve God in; for when the woman questioned, saying v. 20. Our Fathers worshipped in this Mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21. Jesus said unto the woman, believe me the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this Mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem Worship the Father. As if he should say, the hour is coming, that all places shall be left free for to worship in, both this mountain, and all others, not one place above another, but all alike, no place more holy, no place more unholy, though in the Mountain of Samaria, where was an idols Temple, and so takes away the distinction of places, which was under the Law. And the reason why the idols Temples were prohibited under the Law, was because God had branded them then.  
7. Upon the same ground that we must not worship in these places, because dedicated by Idolaters, it is not lawful for men to worship in their houses, because Idolatry hath been committed theer.  
Unto all which Mr. Chidley made answer as followeth.  
1. It is not impossible to prove these Temples in the Land which the Idolators frequent to be dedicated to idols. And the way to try them is as a Thief or Murderer is tried when he is arraigned before the Judge, if he confess it with his own mouth, he is out of his own mouth condemned; even so, if the founders of these places, have confessed out of their own mouths, that they have dedicated them to such uses, as the Records of the Realm testify, the said places are condemned, and aught to be executed, but for these things, I refer unto the records of the realm, and unto those plain and manifest proofs openly known formerly.  
2. Whereas it's alleged that they were not dedicated unto devils, I say Temples dedicated to idols, are dedicated to Devils, and so the Apostle Paul speaketh of the idols Sacrifices, when he saith to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 10. 20. That the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God, and I would not that they should have fellowship with devils; The Scripture calleth idols by the name of devils, so the two calves which Jeroboam set up at Dan and Bethel were called devils, for in setting up and worshipping idols, men set up and worship devils: therefore the Temples of idols are the Temples of devils, (and not the Temples of God) no more are these.  
And whereas it is said some are dedicated to Christ, what is their Christ? their Christ is not he that standeth at the right hand of God, but it is a piece of bread, which they fall down and worship, calling it their God, and eat it when they have done, O ridiculous horrible impiety, worse than jeroboam's! and they do not say, it's a figure of the body of Christ, and the wine a figure of the blood of Christ, but (say they) it is really the Body and Blood of Christ, and to this Christ do they dedicate their Temples which they call Christ's church.  
And so their Trinity is not the eternal God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but their Trinity which they worship is the picture (painted upon a wall) of an old man (sitting) in (that which they picture) for heaven, and there is the Picture of what they call the Son: and the Holy Ghost, they have also (painted out) in the likeness of a Dove; this is their Trinity which they fall down and worship, and dedicate their Temples unto And admit that most of them were dedicated to Saints and Angels, it is to be considered, whether it be not Idolatry to dedicate any Places to Saints or Angels; but what are your Saints or Angels which they dedicate their Temples unto new Images which they make of them, that are no more like unto them, than my picture is like Mr. Goodwins, and they fall down before these Images, saying, St. Peter save me, St. Paul save me, &c. These their impieties far exceed the Abominations of the Heathens, and so are their Idols Temples abominable places, and ought not to be worshipped in, of the Saints. Besides divers Temples in England are builded and dedicated to the Heathen Gods, as well as these are to the Christian or rather Antichristian Gods.  
Then Mr. Goodwin began to commend what he had read of the Papists works, concerning the nature and essence of God, saying, We should not belie the devil.  
Mr. Chidley answered, do you think that Jeroboam and Jesus was not acquainted with such things? but the Papists impiety far exceedeth his, he made Calves in imitation of those at Jerusalem. These make a breaden God, and eat it when they have done, besides their other Abominations, by which they provoke the Lord to anger.  
Therefore friends, 
Mr. Chidley applying his Speech to the People present.  I desire as you tender the salvation of your souls, to labour to know that iniquity is in a mystery, and to discover the same; and also learn to know the mystery of godliness, and how it differs from the mystery of iniquity, though in some sort the mystery of iniquity resembleth it, which maketh it the harder to be discerned, which causeth so many souls to be blinded to their condemnation; for God is not their God, but these are, these are their Gods, let them pretend what ever they will, they worship these Images.  
3. Where it's said that Christ came into the world to take away the distinction of places and places, and to make all places alike, and that to deny this, tendeth to deny that Jesus Christ is come into the World, and to establish Jewishme.  
I answer, That Christ came not into the world to take away the diabolical uncleanness of Idols Temples: no more than of Idols themselves: to affirm that he did, tendeth not only to deny Christ, but also to acknowledge Antichrist, and to establish Idolatry. But he hath said, Little Children, keep yourselves from idols.  
4. Whereas it is said, that when he came he dissolved the uncleanness which God had made, and put upon the Creatures; how much more than the uncleanness which men had put upon those places, but of lime and stone? Mr. Chidley answered, that it followeth not: That because Christ did take away the ceremonial uncleanness which was put upon the Creatures by God, that therefore he took away the diabolical uncleanness which was put upon the Creatures by men, unless to demolish, and abolish them. As at his coming its said, the Idols he will utterly abolish; It's a maxim in divinity, amongst the Separation, that Christ died not for Temples made of lime and stone, but for his Church, which consisteth of living stones, he died not then for Idols Temples, no more than for Idols: and though I am verily persuaded, that nothing is unclean of itself, so it was in the time of the Law, but institution caused the difference, and it is considerable, that in the time of the Law the Badgers 
† The original hath it Tachas Skins, whether there be a defect in the common Translation, its questionable, and it seemeth somewhat doubtful. But that Idols Temples are hated by God is out of doubt.  skins were made use of to cover the Lord Sanctuary, but when did the Lord ever take that which belonged to any Idol, or Idols Temple, to cover his Sanctuary? never; it argueth therefore, that there is a great deal of difference between those Creatures, that were ceremonially unclean, and those diabolically unclean, and Christ might well take away the uncleanness of the one, but not of the other; we are bidden in the Gospel, to keep ourselves from Idols, and from the pollutions of Idols: Therefore Jesus Christ hath not cleansed them, though he hath made the ceremonial things common.  
5. Whereas it was said, by the same ground, as we refuse to worship God in these dedicated places; we may refuse to Worship God in any place of the Land.  
Mr. Chidley answered, that it followeth not; for though some be Idols Temples, yet all the house are not.  
I know said he, that as the Heathen Nations had their great Gods besides their petty Gods, so these Nations besides there petty abominable Idols, they have for every Nation a God; as St. George for England, St. Patrick for Ireland, St. Denis for France, St. David for wales; and to that God St. George are Temples dedicated, which are called Saint George's Churches: these are therefore idols Temples, and ought not to be worshipped in, it cannot be proved so of all the houses in the Land; but if any man will prove his house to be an Idols Temple when the Parl. sets forth an edict that all the Idols Temples in the Land shall be thrown down, those shall be demolished as well as the other. As King Hen: the 8th. did demolish divers of the Monasteries.  
King Henry 8th. did somewhat like to Jehu. Jehu though he destroyed the House of Baal, yet the Idols Temples of Jereboam he destroyed not: so King Henry the 8th. destroyed divers of the great high places, but the lesser high places he did not demolish; though they were all one in respect of pollution; save that which hath most deceit in it, is most to be hated.  
And as for the Land itself, if it be possible to Dedicate the whole earth to St. George, than its possible to dedicate the whole world to an idol: but it is not in their power to dedicate it no more than to dedicate the Sun and Moon and Starrs &c. Now the Sun and moon and stars have been worshipped as Gods, yet were not to be demolished; because they were not their only propriety, all men have their propriety in them; and therefore though God commanded the Idols Temples, built upon mountains and Hills to be demolished, yet he did not require the mountains and Hills to be pulled down, they were of God's making, as the earth: the Idols Temples were of men's framing and erecting, And in this distinction about propriety the Parliament bears more out in their declaration, where they reason concerning the Propriety of the King & of the people. Moreover Lands are the Propriety of Posterity even of the after-Generations which cannot properly be given to Idols as Temples that are of their making, no more than the Sun and moon, which were worshipped, and are common to all; for God causeth the Sun to shine upon the evil and upon the good, and upon the just and unjust. And concerning houses, The Lord did command in Israel, that the high places should be pulled down, when he allowed the dwelling houses to stand, except some house, upon whose roofs they burned incense to other Gods.  
6. Concerning Christ's speeches to the woman of Samaria, nothing can be gathered thence for Idols Temples, true it is that it showeth that a time should come, when the people should not be limited to this place or to that, and this makes against those who limit men to places, and also against those that uphold such limited places, by worshipping in them. But that Christ alloweth men to worship in Idols Temples, and declareth them to be no more polluted, than any other place (which you affirm) cannot be gathered, neither by the express words of Christ, nor necessary consequence; for the matter in question between Christ and the woman was, which was the place of worship, not about the places of worship, but the place of worship, whether it was at that Mountain, or at Jerusalem. Our Fathers (saith he) worshipped in this Mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place of worship. He doth not say [a] place, but [the] place, whereby it appeareth that her question was about [the] place, where men ought to worship; whether it was at that Mountain, or at Jerusalem, for then God bound his public worship to one place.  
Now Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this Mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father. Now Christ by this speech doth not allow them to worship in Idols Temples though in a sense, all places are free to do it, all places of God's Creation; but places of men's limitation, erection, and dedication to Idols, aught to be pulled down; and this by way of application, may appear in the 22. and 23. verses of the same Chapter, where Christ dealeth plainly with her saying, Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship, for salvation is of Jews: but the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him: As if he should say, think not that though the time be, that the true worshippers shall not be limited to worship in a place, that therefore this is any justification of you Samaritans who worship in Idols Temples, and worship Idols. Ye worship you know not what: we know (saith he) what we worship, and allegeth this reason, for salvation is of the Jews; intimating, that salvation was not of the Samaritans, who worshipped Idols, and in Idols Temples; so that if they would have salvation, they must turn from such vanities: Therefore he would have them to worship the Father in spirit and truth. Now the spirit and truth are distinct, though all one in purity. The spirit is the spirit of God, and the truth is the word of God, as it is written, Thy word is truth, now the word of truth doth speak against Idols Temples, and therefore, we are not to worship God in Idols Temples, but in spirit and truth: The spirit of God is a pure spirit, but Idols and Idols Temples, are unclean and diabolical, and contrary to the nature of the spirit, the Father seeketh such to worship him, that worship him in spirit and truth: and therefore if you would be found of him, worship not in Idols Temples, but in spirit and truth. And by all this Scripture, here is not the least colour for; but rather against Idols Temples. Christ never shed his blood to uphold and purge Idols Temples, from their diabolical uncleanness, which uncleanness proceeded not from any institution of God, but from the devil.  
And whereas it is said, that the reason why Idols Temples were prohibited under the Law, was because God had branded them then.  
Mr. Chidley answered, That they made them Idols Temples, God branded them, and to this day, that brand is not taken off them, but remaineth still upon them: The blood of Christ hath not cleansed them, the brand is still upon them, as well as upon the Idols themselves to this day: Therefore as the Saints are to keep themselves from Idols, so are they to keep themselves from worshipping in Idols Temples, because the brand is upon them.  
Neither do we say that a place is an Idols Temple, because Idolatry is committed there, as if a Papist should cross himself, and fall down and worship in his Idolatrous manner, in this or in another man's house, this doth not make it an Idols Temple; but if he build and dedicate, and consecrate a place of his own proper goods, to an idol: this is now an Idolatrous place, and God in the time of the Law commanded Israel to pluck down all the Idolatrous high places, but not all the houses, therefore the houses may stand, when the high places are quite plucked down.  
Then Mr. Goodwin returned to his former sense, of that place in the 4. of John, but it was denied that Jesus Christ, doth in the least allow or countenance the woman of Samaria, or any Samaritan or any Idolater else, or any man whatever, to worship in Idols Temples. Then Mr. Goodwin to back it, returned to the first Scripture in 1 Tim. 2. 10. concerning the word (everywhere) but it was told him, that that was restrained by God himself, and that by everywhere is meant, all places of God's Creation, but not of man's limitation and dedication to an Idol, and therefore not the Temple of Samaria, as he alleged, from John 4. which saith, The hour cometh; when ye shall neither at this Mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father.  
Then said Mr. Goodwin, it is very clear from John 4. Christ's speech to the woman of Samaria, that he came to lose the bands wherewith men were bound, to come to worship at the Temple of Jerusalem, and in saying, neither at this Mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, he doth not justify the worship in the one place more than the other.  
And if by spirit you mean the directions of the spirit, its true; and by the spirit may be meant the spirit of a man, as Paul saith, whom I serve in my spirit.  
To which Mr. Chidley answered. That Christ came to lose the bands which tied men to the Temple of Jerusalem, is true; but it followeth not therefore, that he hath left us free to worship in Idols Temples: he justified the worship in his own Temple; but not in Idols Temples; neither doth the saying of Christ import any such thing; Christ saith afterwards to the woman, ye worship ye know not what, as if he should say, do not think that I do in the least justify your practices, or your abominable Idols, or Idols Temples, because I have said, neither at this Mountain, nor at Jerusalem shall ye worship the Father; but I would have you know, that ye Samaritans worship ye know not what, we [Jews] know what we worship, for salvation is not of you Samaritans, but of the Jews, and Christ showeth that the Father must be worshipped in spirit and truth: now there is not the least word of truth to justify worshipping in the Idols Temples.  
And concerning the Allegations, that by the spirit is to be understood the directions thereof, and is meant of a man's spirit, and the truth therein, as Paul said, God whom I serve in my spirit.  
Mr. Chidley answered, I grant that we are to serve God by the directions of his spirit, and that is by his holy word, which directeth us not to worship in Idols Temples, but showeth that they are sin, and to be quite pulled down: And though Paul saith, he served God in his spirit, it may be taken, that he served God who was in his spirit, for God is said to dwell in the Saints by his spirit, and the Saints are exhorted to pray in the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of God, who directeth us by his word of truth, to which we are left for direction, which doth not allow any to worship him in Idols Temples, and therefore this place in John 4. 22. 23. by application maketh against them. That Scripture saith Mr. Goodwin, doth not include by truth the circumstance of place.  
But it doth (said Mr. Chidley) for the word is truth, which witnesseth against the Idols Temples, and layeth that brand upon them, which the blood of Christ taketh not off.  
And whereas it is called a Circumstance, it is more, it's a material substance; seeing God's Commands are so directly against Idols Temples, I cannot believe (said Mr. Goodwin) that stones are capable of pollution, there's no place holy now; and therefore there is no place unholy or polluted, but as all Creatures are clean, so are all places.  
Mr. Chidley replied, why may not stones be capable of pollution, as well as a piece of bread? which bread and wine consecrated by an Idolatrous Priest, is the Table of Devils; and the Cup, the Cup of Devils: as contrariwise the bread and wine given in the Lord's Supper, is the Table and Cup of the Lord. And I desire you Sir, to take what hath been spoken into consideration, & before you depart, 
* Mr. Goodwin was about to depart now.  take along with you this distinction which I once proposed to divers honest men, Mr. Burroughs; Mr. Burton, M. Sal●marsh, M. Knowles, and Dr. Holmes, and divers others; for in pleading about the high places, they all unanimously concurred, that now in the time of the Gospel, there is nothing holy nor unholy; and this they said was Gospel-liberty, & that to affirm contrary to this, was a taking away of the liberty of the Gospel. And they were so enamoured with this point, that they repeated it divers times, which when I heard, I stood up and said, whereas it hath been concluded, that there is nothing holy nor unholy, and that to affirm there is, is to takeaway the liberty of the Gospel; I say, that now in the time of the Gospel, some things are holy, even the bread of the Lord, and the Cup of the Lord, other things are unholy, even the table & cup of Devils; & other things are merely common; & this Divinity I learned of the Apostle Paul, who was not inferior to the chiefest Apostles, who when he speaketh to the Corinthians, calleth the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper, the Table and Cup of the Lord, which none were to eat and drink but holy persons. That meat and drink which was in the Idols Temples, he calleth it the Table and Cup of devils, and there is that which is merely natural and common, which words of mine they took into consideration, and I think Mr. Burroughs had more sight in it, than any of them all; and so likewise, I desire you, to take these things into consideration. And whereas it is objected, that because there is no place holy now, that therefore there is no place unholy. Sir, it will not follow, that because there is no material place, which is the Temple of the Lord, as the Temple of Jerusalem in former time, that therefore there is no Idols Temple, or Temple of devils; for then by that account, because there is no flesh of Beasts now to be offered, according to the saying, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, therefore the flesh in the Idols Temple is not unclean; but the Apostle calleth it The Table of devils, as really as he calleth the holy bread and wine, the Table and Cup of the Lord: Therefore as Sacrifices of Beasts, are not now holy, yet the meat sacrificed to Idols, is the Table of devils; so though there is no Temple holy now, yet the Temples dedicated to Idols, are the Temples of Idols, the Temples of devils.  
I do believe Sir, that there is nothing unclean of itself, nor holy of itself, but institution whether divine or diabolical, maketh the same otherwise than it was before, though it is in a manner common, as David said of the showbread, and so it hath been under the Law, and so it is under the Gospel.  
FINIS.