Theophilus and Philodoxus, OR SEVERAL CONFERENCES BETWEEN TWO FRIENDS; The one A true Son of the Church of England, The other Fallen off to the Church of Rome.  
Concerning,  

1. Prayer in an unknown Tongue.  
2. The Half Communion.  
3. The Worshipping of Images.  
4. The Invocation of Saints.   
By GILBERT COLES, D. D. Fellow of Winchester College.  
At the THEATER in Oxford, MDCLXXIV.   

Imprimatur  
RA. BATHURST, Vice-Cancel. OXON. Julii 10. 1674.   

TO THE Right Reverend Father in GOD, GEORGE Lord Bishop of WINCHESTER.  
Right Reverend, and my very good Lord,  
I Am bold to entitle these First-fruits unto your Lordship's Favour and Protection, as being conscious how much they need it, to shield them from this Censorious Age: wherein impotent Men (who ought to learn and become Disciples, and reap the Fruits of others Labours) usurp the Chair, and sit as Judges, most severely to censure and condemn. A Generation furnished only with Principles destructive; to pull down and not to edify; to except against what is Written, and superciliously smile at the Author's folly (as they have concluded) whilst they are wise in their own Conceits, and secure themselves from public Censure, by doing nothing that would become a public Spirit: thro' detestable Ignorance or Idleness, betraying the Truth unto their Industrious Adversaries, yielding up a Righteous Cause to the Lusts of Men, for want of Zeal or Courage to defend it.  
Now we must needs acknowledge your Lordship's great Example and Encouragement hath not been wanting to the contrary. Your Clergy of this Diocese might have learned from you to Preach and Speak boldly in the Defence of Truth, to reason with, and convince Gain-sayers. And for mine own particular, having had the favour sometimes to stand before you, and hear your familiar Communications, in great humility and condescension with such as were far inferior and subject to you, I declare, That from your Lordship's occasional Intimation and Discourse, I took the Cue and Invitation to write in the Defence of the Church of England, against her Adversaries of Rome: & having reason to distrust myself in so great an Undertaking, I was confident to commit these poor Endeavours unto your Censure; and lo! thro' your Tenderness and Indulgence, they are improved into a favourable acceptance and Approbation. Whereupon I am encouraged to present them unto public view, and humbly beg, They may pass into the World under the Wing of your Authority and Veneration; and then, no doubt, the malevolent will be sober.  
That Almighty God would lengthen your date of Life to rule his Church, and do much good in an evil Generation; and finally Crown your Piety with Immortality and Glory, is the Prayer of,  
Your Lordship's Most humble and obedient Servant, Gilbert Coles.   

THE PREFACE To the READER.  
I Make no other Apology (Christian Reader) for my committing these Papers to the Press, but this: The Love of Truth constrained me; and a just indignation against those Emissaries of Rome who lately swarmed among us, and have not yet, we fear, taken their slight, notwithstanding the Law hath banished them. But the Laws of Princes oblige not them, against the Mission of their Superiors: hither they will come, and here they will abide, compassing Sea and Land to make Proselytes. They flatter themselves (or at least the simple) with expectation of great Success of their Labours. Observing our sad Divisions, and great Corruptions, they find good Fishing in Troubled Waters; and conclude, The general Debauchery of men's lives, will dispose them to entertain a Religion suited to their Vicious Inclinations, wherein they may have Indulgencies, and Pardons, and perfect Absolution upon easy terms. They well know, That only our Sins can bring such a Judgement upon this Island (which God avert) as to let in Popery; and as they see our Iniquities abound, so their Hopes and Confidences improve to make us corrupt in our Religion, as in our Lives.  
But we hope better things from a Gracious God, and Invincible Truth, That the Church of England shall stand against all underminers at home and abroad. Only let such as love the Lord hate evil, and let the Truths of God be more precious in our Eyes, then to be Sacrificed unto the Lusts of Men. And when we shall observe such Industrious Designs set on foot to bring in Errors: Good God How earnestly should we contend to keep them out?  
Formerly we had Stout and Learned Champions of the Reformed Religion, who put our Adversaries well-nigh to silence by the advantage of their Cause, & their indefatigable Industry and Piety. But, however it comes to pass, the Scene is altered: The Envious one sows his Tares, and few appear to weed them out; the Truths of God are contradicted, and we are filent.  
Since a Puritan Faction made the Schism, disturbing the Peace of Church and State; approving themselves better skilled at their Weapons then their Arguments; instead of Writing against their Adversaries, Fight against their Friends: Since the Venerable Fathers of our Church were driven from their Habitations, bereft of their Libraries and of their Livelihoods, forced to seek for succours, many of them, in Foreign Parts: Since the Presbyterian and Independent Chaplains had learned the Merchandise of Plundered Books, selling whole Libraries upon easy terms unto Popish Factors: Since our Universities were Garrisoned and Reformed, All the Fellows and Students of Colleges thrust out to seek their Fortunes; a Generation of Seekers, and puny Discipies succeeding: I say, since the year 1642. there hath been a sad long Vacation in England from studious Reading and Writing of Books; and thereout our Adversaries of Rome have sucked no small advantage. They are bold in Challenges and Disputes, and Controversial Pamphlets, whereunto the true Sons of the Church of England could not rejoin, for want of necessaries and Books; the Presbyterians, for want of Learning.  
Since His Majesty's miraculous and happy Return, The Church hath had time to breath, and all things move in their own Sphere. But Learning and Judgement come not in per saltum, the Intercision of twnety Years is sadly sensible, and to be lamented: Our old Divines, thro' desuetude, and the infirmities of Age, are indisposed to enter into the List of Controversies; our young Divines, are unfurnished with Materials. Thirteen Years (since His Majesty warmed the drooping Genius of this Nation with his nearer Influence and Protection) being too short a term for men to traverse the Cycle of the Arts and Sciences, to revolve the Learned Volumes of the Fathers, to be versed in the Councils and Histories of the Church, and to wind themselves out of the Labyrinth of the Schools. And there are very few of the middle sort: For when the Glory of the Land was departed, and the Virgin Daughter of Zion did sit in the dust; our military Schismatics committed an horrible Rape upon Religion and Learning, all things were prostituted to their Interests and Lusts, our new modelled Universities studied nothing but Politics and Pamphlets, compendious Systems of New Philosophy and Divinity: so that the Institution of two or three Years, was more than sufficient to qualify them for the Pulpit and the Press, and to vent their extemporary Notions to a deluded People.  
The chief point of their Wisdom, appeared in the choice of such Pigmies as themselves to sight with. The Presbyterian Learning was of a just size to match Enthusiasts and Phanarics: A Generation hatched under their wing, and when they were fledg, they served to peck out the Eyes of their Dam, and make Past-time to the Spectators with their Puppet like Contentions and Disputes.  
But our Adversaries of Rome were too strong for them to wrestle with: or rather indeed, they were their Friends, affording them Principles to justify Rebellion; and Politics, to carry on their Design against the common Enemy, The genuine Sons of the Church of England. Nay unto this day (with grief we speak it) they both appear to shake hands, and set their shoulders on both sides, with all their might to unhinge our Settlement and Security.  
From this sad Prospect, you may take the Measures of our Disadvantage: Insomuch, that if one of a thousand, against the Genius of the Times, did bend his Studies to search after Truth in the Records of Antiquity, to read the Primitive Fathers of the Church, and furnish himself with Arguments against Rome's Innovations: upon his first Adventure to appear in public, he is beset with numerous Adversaries and Opponents: Some Writing against his Book, and more against his Person. They take their several Parts, as their Genius leads them, either unto Contumely or Sophistry; despairing to give satisfaction to his Arguments, they will wound his Reputation, and vex his Righteous Soul; entangle the Discourse with Subtleties and Fallacies, that so the Reader may be at a loss in such Mists which they have cast about him.  
Now it is great pity they should have such leisure to send forth Legions against single Persons: were all of my mind, we would carve out more work for them. Relying upon Divine Assistance, and the merits of the Cause, let us not fear their numbers, but examine their pretensions, and we shall have encouragement enough to enter into the Lists: For Error is weak and indefensible.  
Let us therefore follow the steps of our Forefathers, who have brought their deceitful Wares to the Light, and weighed their Motives in the Balance, and lo! they were as inconsiderable as the dust upon the Balance They decline very much the Holy Scriptures, because they appear against them. They brag of Antiquity, but in those things wherein we differ, fall very short of that account. They build upon the Rock of their Church's Infallibility; but when we manifest their Errors in many Particulars, it will be an accumulative Demonstration against that Fundamental Article.  
Now this is the Design in General of this Conference, to bring the Innovations of the Church of Rome unto the Test of Holy Scritpure, and of Venerable Antiquity: and when the Reader shall find her so much to swerve from the Infallible Rule, we will leave him to judge of her Infallible Spirit.  
I have taken Beauties Motives principally into consideration, because he is esteemed a Pillar, and doubtless speaks the sense of his Church as fully as any others, and he had a Cardinal's Cap for the reward of his Polemics. And here I call the great Searcher of Hearts to witness, that I have not hitherto, neither hereafter will conceal from the Reader any Argument which the Cardinal brings, either in his own Defence, or in opposition to his Adversaries, which I judge material; for I will not prevarieate in the Cause of God.  
One Word more, Gentle Reader, touching the form of this Discourse by way of Conference and Dialogue. Designing, by God's help, to profit my Countrymen, and keep their feet out of the Snare; to write for the benefit of the Vulgar, rather than of the Learned, who can help themselves. I have made choice of this familiar way, to insinuate Truths, and to invite and recompense the Readers patience with the Pleasure and Divertisement of these Interloculories.  
And so I leave thee, by the Blessing of God, to reap the Fruit of my Labours. G. C.   

Theophilus and Philodoxus, OR A CONFERENCE Between two FRIENDS and NEIGHBOURS: One, A true Son of the Church of England. The other, Fallen off to the Church of Rome.  Theoph. 
SIR, You have of late declined that familiarity we have formerly maintained as Friends and Neighbours; and I now give you the trouble of this visit, to understand the reason.  Phil. 
Not for want of good will and affection (worthy Theophilus) have I sequestered myself from the sweetness and advantage of your Society: nothing less, I do assure you, than the greatest concern in this World, hath for a time confined me to my most reserved and serious Thoughts and Studies; making me neglect the due Ceremonies of Friendship, whilst I have been in pursuit after the Vnum necessarium, the only true Religion and way of God's Worship.  Theoph 
Dear Sir, You have in few words given full security to my fears, lest some discontent had made you a Stranger: but now I will easily grant, that all other circumstances and business must give place unto the care of Religion. Are you therefore now at leisure to give your Friend an account of the success? Religious Conferences are more becoming and suitable to our Christian Profession, than the accustomed emtiness and vanity of our Communications.  Phil. 
Your goodness, Theophilus, hath given the opportunity which my heart desired, to declare what the Lord hath done for my Soul, in bringing back the strayed Sheep to his Fold, and opening to me a door of entrance into the true Church, out of which there is no salvation, and against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail.  Theoph. 
Be pleased to be more particular and express, that I may understand you.  Phil. 
With a very good will. I have been long wavering and unsettled, and in the studious search of Truth; and now I have found the Jewel: the wand'ring Star is fixed in its proper Sphere, and I am become a Convert to the Roman Catholic Church.  Theoph. 
It seems by your acknowledgement, the Church of Rome is the proper Sphere for wand'ring Stars, for such as waver in the Faith. And herein I approve your Judgement: for I ever thought it impossible, that the thoughts of reasonable Men could be settled on that foundation which Rome hath laid; or find any satisfaction in those Arguments, which her great Champions do produce to confirm those Points wherein we differ from her.  Phil. 
The prejudice, Theophilus, of your Education is great: and doubtless, you have not sufficiently consulted your Adversaries, as you esteem them, otherwise they would have given you sufficient Reasons of their Doctrine and Practice, and removed the Scruples and Objections you have entertained against them.  Theoph. 
The holy Scriptures in this case are the best Oracles to be consulted; and withal, our Learned Writers appear to manifest the full consent of Antiquity, Fathers, and Councils, within the first 600 Years of Christianity, against the Innovations of the Church of Rome. But seeing yourself have received such satisfaction from their Books, and from their Priests, as to become a Proselyte to Rome; I pray be ingenious and free to communicate and impart your new discoveries unto your, Friend.  Phil. 
The rule of Friendship and of Charity obliging, I am much devoted to this good service, and most willing to lead such a Friend and Neighbour in the way of Truth and Holiness.  Theoph. 
You suppose the new way, wherein you have lately chose to walk, to be the right; and it will much concern you to make it plain, and remove those stumbling-blocks and rocks of Scandal which lie therein, before you can expect that I should follow you.  Phil. 
Engage, Theophilus, that you will not stumble at straws, and I will undertake to remove all other Obstacles out of your way.  Theoph. 
I shall not design to trifle in a serious Discourse, and therefore will propose only such Objections against your new way, as I judge material.  Phil. 
Upon this condition I am ready to answer.  Theoph. 
I will first give you in such Exceptions which are obvious unto the meanest Understanding, and wherewith yourself was much dissatisfied, before your new discoveries; viz. 1. With the Latin Service of the Church of Rome. 2. With her half Communion. 3. With her worshipping of Images.  Phil. 
I must confess these things gave great offence unto me, before I was better informed; but now I can give a reason of the Church's practice, and answer your Objections against it.  Theoph. 
We will therefore take them in their order into consideration. First, The Church of Rome, where she hath Authority, requires the public Offices of Prayer and of the Sacraments, to be performed in the Latin Tongue, although it be unknown and nor understood by the common people: and this is contrary unto the reveled will of God in Holy Scripture, and to the great end of public Prayer.  Phil. 
Make your Arguments and Prooss, and I will answer them.  Theoph. 
St Paul, in that known passage to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 14. speaks expressly to this point, that in the Church and public Assemblies of the Saints, All things should be done to edification, ver. 12. and that he that preacheth or prophesieth, should utter words easy to be understood by the hearers, that it may be known what is spoken; otherwise he speaketh into the air: ver. 9 and if I know not the meaning of the voice (saith the Apostle) I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me, ver. 11.  Phil. 
We grant that Homilies and Sermons should be made to the People in a known Tongue, that they may understand and receive instruction.  Theoph. 
The same reason holds for Prayers and Spiritual Hymns and Benedictions: that the People, who are obliged to be present, and to hold Communion in the Prayers of the Church, should understand them. For St Paul in the same Chapter saith expressly: He that prayeth in an unknown tongue (that is, unknown to himself) his understanding is unfruitful, ver. 14. and therefore, saith he, I will pray and sing with the spirit, and with understanding also, ver. 15. and he immediately adds, when thou shalt bless with the spirit (that is, with such a Tongue as the Holy Ghost hath by an extraordinary gift enabled thee to speak) how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned, say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest. For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified, ver. 16, 17. and therefore he declares, That although he had the gift of Tongues more than they all, yet in the Church he had rather speak five words with his understanding, that by his voice be might teach others also, then ten thousand words in an unknown Tongue.  Phil. 
You are not ignorant how the Learned have sufficiently answered all these Arguments taken out of this Chapter.  Theoph. 
That they have not sufficiently answered them, I know full well; and that it is impossible they should. I pray impart that satisfaction which they have given you.  Phil. 
Bellarmine, Tom. 1. Lib. 2. De verbo Dei, cap. 16. plainly shows, That the Apostle in this Chapter doth not speak of the common Forms of Prayer, and Hymns of praise, but of some particular Prayers and Benedictions, which by the gift of the Spirit, by immediate Inspiration, some were enabled to speak in a Tongue unknown to most of the hearers, and sometimes not understood by themselves.  Theoph. 
How doth he prove the first part of his Answer, that the Apostle in that Chapter doth not speak of public Prayers and Benedictions, and reading of the Scriptures. For these are his words, Vera sententia est, Apostolum hoc loco non agere de divinis Offici is, nec de publica Scripturarum Lectione.  Phil. 
He proves it thus. Because, saith he, out of: doubt the Corinthians had the Scriptures read in the Church in Greek, and the Divine Service in the same Tongue which they understood. Scripturae sine dubio legebantur Graece, & Divina Officia●fiebant graece in Graecia. Ibid de verbo Dei, cap 16.  Theoph. 
This we readily grant, and make no more doubt of it then himself. Corinth was an eminent City in Greece, and the Greek was the vulgar Tongue with them, and therefore doubtless all their public Service was in that Tongue, understood by all. And because the Apostle would always have it so, in this Chapter he forbids everyone to disturb that good edifying way of the Church; That none should pray or bless in public, or speak in an unknown Tongue, because thereby the People, who did not understand the Language, could not be edified. But that which Bellarmine puts out of all doubt, and we easily grant, That the Corinthians had their public offices of Prayer and reading of the Scriptures in Greek, I pray, observe well how he proves it. Graece in Graecia, therefore they had their Service in Greek, because they were Grecians. And the Argument concludes alike for every Country, that doubtless they had their public Service and Worship of God in their own Language: Graece in Graecia, and Anglice in Anglia; because they were Grecians, they had theirs in Greek; and because we are Englishmen, we have ours in English: and so every Country in their own Tongue. For set aside the reason of this Chapter, That St Paul requires the public Service should be in the vulgar Tongue, to the end that all the People may understand and be edified, and be able to say, Amen, (and Bellarmine could never prove what he takes for granted, That the Corinthians had their Divine Service in Greek:) by his leave, the Chapter shall serve our turn as well as theirs; That, according to the Apostles general rule, in England we should serve God in English.  Phil. 
But you will find how Bellarmine puts a vast difference between the first Age of Christianity, and those which followed. Christians were then few, and in their. Assemblies they sang Hymns together, and had their parts and mutual responds in the Divine Service, and so it was then necessary that all the People should understand the common Service, that they might readily join therein, and make their answers. But when the multitude of Believers increased, the Offices were divided, and the Common Prayers and Bymns in the Church were left only to the Priest to be performed: for so run his Words, Divisa sunt Officia, & solis Clericis relictum est, ut communes preces & laudes in Ecclesia peragant. Ib. deverbo Dei, c. 16. And therefore it sufficeth, that the Priest understand the public Offices, who presents the public Prayers unto God as the mouth of all the Congregation.  Theoph. 
It was no fair division between them, when all was left only to the Priest. But have the People than no partnor share in the Divine Service and public Prayer?  Phil. 
Yes, the Priest, as the mouth of the People, prays to God for them, and offereth up the Sacrifice of the Mass on their behalf.  Theoph. 
So he doth for such as are absent, and for the dead; and therefore why doth the Church so strictly oblige every one to be present at public Service, more especially at the Mass, upon every Festival, under the guilt of Mortal Sin? as we may read in the Casuists, particularly in Martin Aspilqueta, the famous Doctor of Navarre, in his Enchiridion or manual of Confession, chap. 21. Farag. 1.  Phil. 
Because the People of God have great advantages by their presence at such public Offices, therefore are they obliged by the Precept of the Church to afford their presence: For many do understand the Prayers of the Church; and such as do not, may pray with the Spirit, although not with their understanding.  Theoph. 
But Saint Paul saith, He will pray with the Spirit, and with understanding also. And I know not what you understand by your expression of praying with the Spirit, and not with the understanding. The heart cannot pray or sing except it understand: For Intellectus est sonus cordis, the voice or sound of the heart is the understanding, saith St Augustin, in the 8th Tome, in his Exposition upon the 99 Psalm. And he quotes a Text out of the 89. Psalms, ver. 15. Beatus populus qui seit jubilationem, Blessed is the people that know the joiful sound, or jubilee. O let us run after this blessedness, let us understand what we sing: (as he proceeds in the Exhortation) To what purpose is it to sing and not to understand; that our voice should chant, without the heart?  Phil. 
Such as frequent the public Service, may soon learn by observation when to Confess, when to Adore, what to Answer, when to Stand, when to Kneel, when to say, Amen: For the Priest pronounceth the last clause of his Prayers, Per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum, Thro Jesus Christ our Lord, with a more audible and solemn Tone, that the People may have warning given to say, Amen. He elevates the Host above his head, when the People must fall down and worship it. And the Responsals are short and easily learned. Nay, those secret Prayers, in the Mass, which the Priest is enjoined to utter with a silent murmur, they conclude always with this clause, Per omnia saecula saeculorum (throughout all Ages and Generations) which words the Priest must pronounce with a loud voice, that the People present may say, Amen. Sic finiunt omnes Orationes secretas, per omnia saecula saeculorum; quae quidem verba, licet Orationes ipsae tacito quodam silentio fuerint recitatae, altâ voce proferuntur, ut populus astans respondere possit, Amen. Azorius Institutionum moralium, lib. 10. cap. 34.  Theoph. 
Alas! these you speak of are Circumstances, nor the substance of Divine Service: when, not, what. I pray tell me what benefit will it be to me, if I know when the Priest makes a Prayer of Confession, when I cannot join with him in that Confession, because I understand not what he saith. And for answering Amen to Prayers which we understand not, the Apostle saith, we cannot do it, 1 Cor. 14. 16. How shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned, say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? And as the People actually join in the Divine Service with the Priest, in the Responsals, and saying, Amen; so should they intentionally and cordially accompany him in every Prayer and Benediction thro-out the Service. And the Priest is enjoined often to exhort the People so to do, saying, Oremus, Let us pray. I demand therefore, whether by this Exhortation, Let us pray, the Priest calls upon the People to join with him in the common Prayers which he then publicly makes to God, or only gives warning to every one present to put up his private Petitions to the Almighty, whilst he himself makes public Prayers for them all?  Phil. 
Doubtless, he exhorts the people to join with him in the common Prayers of the Church, otherwise there would be no Communion in the Service; neither could the people be all ready together to say Amen to the public Prayers, if they were permitted and exhorted every one to make his private Prayer unto God, at the same season.  Theoph. 
You have said well, and showed very good reason, why we should conceive that the Priest, saying, Let us pray, exhorts the people to join with him in the public Prayer. But when we shall read the Casuists upon this Point, and observe the general practice of the Church of Rome, we may alter our Judgement. Navarrus the famous Casuist before mentioned, determins the case, in the 21. Chapter of his Euchiridion, the 8th Paragraph, Potest quis eodem tempore satisfacere praecepto de Audiendet Missa, & de dicendis horis Canonicis, aut aliis votis juratis, vel in poenitentia injunctis, modo non adeo uni rei intendat, ut alteri necessariam intentionem adimat. A Man may satisfy the Precept of the Church to hear Mass, and at the same time repete his Canonical hours, or other parts of private duty, whereunto he hath obliged himself by Vow, or hath been enjoined by his Confessor; if so be the performance of the one, doth not hinder the due execution of the other.  Phil. 
But how conceive you that can be, seeing his private Offices of Prayer must needs interrupt his due intention unto the public.  Theoph. 
He shows you how. Quia nemo levitur expraecepto audire, & minus intelligere verba Sacerdotis: quia satis est è longinquo Missanti adesse; & actualiter, vel intentionaliter, exoptare ut Sacerdos à Deo audiatur, qui pro omnibus loquitur, orat & sacrificat. By the Precept of hearing Mass (saith he) no Man is obliged to hear, much less to understand the words of the Priest: for it sufficeth to be present at a great distance from him that officiates, and actually or virtually, to wish that the Lord would please to incline his ears unto the prayers of the Priest, by reason of his far distance, or because the Priest speaks with a submiss and whispering voice (as he is sometimes enjoined) or when himself is deaf, or the like: and he might well have added one cause more, when the public Offices are not understood, being performed in an unknown Tongue. I have singled out this great Oracle of his Age, as one for all; who was consulted about Casuistical Solutions from all parts of the Western-Church, and set forth this Enchiridion, or Manual of Confessors, after many previous Editions, revised and perfected in the 90th Year of his Life, as himself declares in his Epistle Dedicatory to Pope Gregory the 13th. And herèunto exactly suits the practice of their Church: The people are solicitous to afford their presence at Mass in their solemn Feasts, but it matters not at what distance from the High Altar they place themselves; for if they hear the Prayers, yet generally they understand them not, and therefore they apply themselves, some to Auricular Confession in corners of the Temple, unto the Priests they have made choice of: others mumble over their bead-role of Prayers which they have been enjoined by way of Penance: others, who had not leisure to pay their Morning Devotions at home, recollect them in the Church, only when the Mass-Priest with a loud voice concludes the Prayers, they are accustomed to answer, Amen; and when he elevates the Host, they have warning given them to Adore and Worship.  Phil. 
You may reckon these as personal abuses and corruptions against the pious intention of the Church in her public Offices.  Theoph. 
They are too general, to be accounted personal. And it is evident, the public Service being not understood, the great Doctors of the Church judge it reasonable and charitable to allow the people their private Devotions in the Church; and therefore it is a mockery for the Priest to exhort the people to pray with him, when they understand not his Prayers, and are permitted to pray by themselves.  Phil. 
The opinion of private Doctors, or the corrupt practice of private persons, is insignificant. Show the Authority of the Church for this permission.  Theoph. 
I show how the Church gives the occasion by performing the Service in an unknown Tongue: for if the people must join in common Prayer with the Priest, they must understand it, that they may devoutly and affectionately discharge the duty together with him.  Phil. 
However, I have showed you before how the Priest is the mouth of the people, putting up the common Supplications, and offering up the great Sacrifice of Christ unto the Father in the Mass for them.  Theoph. 
And so the people are excluded, and in vain invited to join in Prayer with the Priest; and there is no communion in the Service, which yourself, not long before, acknowledged to be an absurdity. And you will find the Primitive Fathers of the Church speaking expressly to this point, Of the people's joining with the Priest in public Prayer, and of the efficacy of such Prayers as more available with God, when the Congregation with one heart and voice did make their common Supplications, and sing Praises to him. Tertullian, in the 39th Chapter of his excellent Apology for Christians, resembles them, when assembled together in common Prayer, unto an Army, manu facta, as he speaks, making an assault upon the God of Heaven, and by a Sacred Violence wresting Concessions from him. Haec vis Deo grata, This is an acceptable force to the Almighty. St. Basil compares them unto the rushing of many Waters, in his Hexameron, the 4th Homily. If the Sea (saith he) be beautiful in the sight of God, how much more is such an assembly of the Church as we have here; in which the mingled sound of Men, Women, and Children, making their common Prayers, ascendeth unto our God, as the noise of Waves beating against the Banks. St Ambrose insists upon the same Metaphor, in his Hexameron, the 3d Book and first Chapter. Bene mari comparatur Ecclesia in Oratione totius plebis, etc. Appositely may the Church be compared to the Sea, when all the multitude in their Prayers make a noise like the flowing Waves; and in the Responsals of the Psalms, and in the Hymns of Men, Women, Virgins and Children. St Chrysostom shows, how the people in the public Prayers contribute much to such as are possessed, and to the Penitents. For the Prayers of the Priest and of the people (saith he) are common. All say the same Prayer: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Homil. 18. in secundum Epistolam ad Corinth. With what show of reason therefore can ye exclude the people from understanding the public Service, and joining with the Priest therein.  Phil. 
This course you have mentioned out of Antiquity, continued not many Ages in the Church.  Theoph. 
For 600. Years, as appears by Isidore Hispalensis, Lib. 10, de Ecclesiast. Officiis, cap. 10. Oportet ut quando Psallitur, psallatur ab omnibus, cum oratur, oretur ab omnibus, etc. It is necessary that this rule should be observed in Church Service, that when they sing, All should sing; when they pray, all should pray; when the Lesson is read, All being silent should hear. And therefore the Deacon with a loud voice commandeth silence; that whether they sing, or the Scriptures be read, unity be preserved, and that which is spoken to all, should be heard of all.  Phil. 
But the general practice of the Church prevails with sober Men against all Testimonies whatever.  Theoph. 
What is the general practice of the Church?  Phil. 
In every Nation under Heaven, to have the public Service in one of the three Sacred Languages. In Hebrew, Greek, or Latin.  Theoph. 
Is one Language holier than another?  Phil. 
Not in itself, but in the effect; because the Holy Ghost chose to communicate unto the World the Holy Scriptures in these three Languages.  Theoph. 
You have made an ill Argument for the Latin Tongue: for I do not find that any part of God's Word was originally written in Latin.  Phil. 
Yes, Bellarmine asserts it. 
a Bell. Tom. 1. l. 2. de verbo Dei, cap. 15.  Let us be content (saith he) with those three Tongues which Christ hath honoured with the Title of his Cross, and which excel all others in Antiquity, amplitude, and gravity, and wherein the Holy Scriptures were first written by their Authors. 
b Quibus ipsi libri divini ab Autoribus suis initio scripti fuerunt.  And he brings a great Authority for the proof, even Hilary in his Preface to his Commentary upon the Psalms. 
c His tribus linguis Sacramentum voluntatis dei, & beati Regni expectatio praedicatur.  In these three Tongues the mystery of the will of God, and the expectation of the kingdom, is published.  Theoph. 
This Testimony of Hilary comes not home to the point; he saith, In quibus praedicatur, In which three Tongues the Gospel was preached, not in which they were first written. And although Bellarmine here be positive, yet in the same Chapter afterwards he speaks doubtfully of the Latin Tongue. 
d Vt quidam volunt Latin, etc.  They did write the Gospels and Epistles only in Hebrew and Greek, and, as some will have it, in Latin. For there are some who conceive that Saint Mark did write his Gospel at Rome in Latin, and afterwards translated it into the Greek Tongue. And for the proof, he first sends us to Pope Damasus his Pontifical, his Book of the Lives of all the Popes his Predecessors in the See of Rome: where in the Life of Peter we are told, 
e Hic scripsit duas Epistolas, quae Canenicae nominantur, & Evangel Marel, etc.  That Peter wrote two Epistles, and the Gospel of Saint Mark: for Mark was his Disciple, and his adopted S 〈…〉 n his Baptism. Now if Peter did write that Gospel, as this Testimony asserts, how is it called the Gospel of St Mark, more than the other two Canonical Epistles? And yet so far we have nothing said concerning the Tongue wherein Mark did write his Gospel: but it immediately follows, Posi omnem quatuor Evangeliorum ●●ntem, quae ad interrogationem & testimonium Petri firmata sunt, dum alius Grace, alius Hebraice, alius I alive scribentes consonant, omnia ejus Testimonio sum firmata. A piece of Latin which I cannot make sense of; only we may guests the meaning. That by Peter's Testimony all the four Gospels were confirmed, and confirmed (for the greater confirmation of Peter's supreme Authority, the word firmata is, without sense, twice inserted) while one of the Evangelists writing in Greek, another in Hebrew, another in Latin, they all were consonant. Now by this wise Enumeration there were but three Evangelists, one writing in Greek, another in Hebrew, and another in Latin; in what Tongue the fourth Evangelist did write, must be reserved as a secret in due time to be reveled, when France or Spain, or some other Catholic Prince (as they will have it) hath attained an Universal Monarchy, and then the Language of his Country shall be adopted into the Sacred Number.  Phil. 
I must confess, this passage in the life of Peter is set down something imperfectly, we may suppose an Error in the Printing.  Theoph. 
The whole deserves a deleatur. For how could Peter by his supreme Authority confirm the four Evangelists, when it is generally acknowledged that John wrote his Gospel long after Peter's Martyrdom under Nero, even in the Reign of Nerva Emperor of Rome, who released him of his banishment in Patmos, whither Domitian had condemned him. John returning to Ephesus, upon the persuasion of the Asian Bishops, did write his Gospel against Cerinthus, and Ebion, and other Heretics, who denied Christ's Divinity 
a Aug. Tom. 9 Praefatione in Joannem. Occiso Domitiano, cum permittente Nerva de exilio red●sset, compulsus ab Episc. Asiae, etc.  But in truth, this Pontifical is by themselves accounted spurious, and falsely ascribed to Damasus, as Binius asserts in the first Tome of his Edition of the Councils, in a Note before Peter's Life. 
b Hujus libri Pontifex Damasus author non est, quod in unoquque fere Pontifice pugnantia contineat.  Damasus is not the Author of this Pontifical; for almost in the Life of every Pope, it contains thing; repugnant one to another. And he quotes Bar onius and Possevinus for his Judgement. Now we may easily believe Bellarmine was too great a Scholar, not to discover the Imposture and the Contradictions of the Book, yet after his usual course, when a Testimony makes for him, he will take it, although himself be not ignorant of the forgery.  Phil. 
You find Bellarmine in that place brings other Authors to prove Mark did write his Gospel in Latin, Adrianus Finus, and Antonius Beuter.  Theoph. 
Writers so obscure, that I cannot find their Books; and Tirinus a Jesuit, ᵃ in his Index Autorum, shows the first to be a Writer of the last Century, making no mention of the second.  Phil. 
Baronius likewise affirms, that Mark wrote his Gospel in Latin; and proves it, because he was, as Jerome calls him, Peter's Interpreter, and did write for the use and benefit of the Romans, as Nazianzen affirms, 
d Nazianzen. in carmin. de 4. Evangeliis.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and therefore probably he wrote in the Latin Tongue.  Theoph. 
You may urge the same Argument, that Paul did write his Epistle to the Romans in Latin.  Phil. 
But Baronius observes likewise, some Latin words adopted into the Greek Copy of St Mark's Gospel 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. cap. 6. ver. 37. & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ver. 27. : which makes it more than probable, that the Greek Copy was translated out of the Latin.  Theoph. 
This Criticism will not help him: for we find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the other Evangelists, Matth. 18. 28. Luk. 17. 41. John 6. 7. We find many other Latin Words in the Greek Test. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Act. 19 12. (and yet St Luke is observed, of all the sacred Writers, to write the purest Greek) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Matth. 26. 53. And 
f In Comment. in Epist. 1. ad Cor. cap. 10. ver. 25.  Benedictus Justinianus a Jesuit, derides this Argument, instancing in many other Words of the like nature, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Leaving therefore these critical and new Discoveries, will you hear what St Jerome and Augustin, 
ᶜ Adrianus Finus Ferrariensis edidit flagellum Judaeorum, An. 1537.  two Latin Fathers, say to this point? 
a Jer. in Praefati. in 4. Evangelistas'. De novo Testam. non lequor, etc.  I speak not of the New Testament, which without doubt is all Greek, except the Gospel of Matthew, which be first set forth in Judea in the Hebrew Tongue. Augustin affirms the same. 
b Aug. Tom. 4. l. 1. De consensis Evangelistarum, cap. 2.  Of these four Evangelists, only Matthew is said to write in Hebrew; ceteri Graeco eloquio, the others in the Greek Tongue. To these accord many of their own Writers. 
c Biblioth. l. 1. Breve grace sermone scripsit Evangelium.  Sixtus Senensis saith expressly, Mark wrote a brief Gospel in the Greek Tongue. And you may observe by this passage, and many others, how Baronius and Bellarmine, two great Pillars of the Roman See, little regard the Testimony of the Fathers when it crosseth their great design, to advance the reputation of the Church of Rome. However, I presume it appears by what you have heard, that no part of the Holy Scripture was written in Latin originally, and therefore the Latin Tongue in that respect is not Sacred, and to have the pre-eminence above others.  Phil. 
But in the forementioned place, Bellarmine instanceth in other excellencies of the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, above all others, in antiquity, amplitude, and gravity 
d Bell. l. 2. de verba Dei, cap. 15. Omnium consensis hae al●is praestant antiquitate, amplitudine & gravitate. .  Theoph. 
For the Antiquity of the Roman Language, let the Grammarians discourse it. For the amplitude and universality thereof, I acknowledge, that it did spread far with the Roman Conquests, especially in the Western Empire, which was called, Orbis Latinus; so that it became the vulgar Tongue unto many Nations. In Africa we have those Noble Orators, Tertullian and Cyprian, living in Carthage, writing Tracts and Epistles in Latin unto all sorts; unto Men and Women, Lay and Clergy: which shows, that Language was then vulgarly understood. Tertullian wrote two Books to his Wife in Latin. A third, De habitu muliebri. A fourth, De cultu seminarum, unto Women. A fifth to Virgins, Develand. Virginibus. Cyprian writes his familiar Epistles to the Martyrs, and divers others; many of them of the common people. Augustin, Bishop of Hippo in Africa, made all his Homilies and Lectures unto the people of his Congregation in Latin, and therefore that Language was commonly understood: (for yourself acknowledged, that we ought to Preach in a known Language to the People) nay, he expressly tells us, 
e Lib. 1. Retract. cap. 20. Volens causam Donatistarum ad ipsius humillimi vulgi, & imperitorum at que idiotarum nobitiam pervenire, psalmum qui ab ●is canttur latinas literas feci. Ipse psalmus habetur, Tom. 1. cap. 1.  That being willing the Donatists' cause might be understood, even by the unlearned, and vulgar sort of People, be composed a Psalm according to the Latin Alphabet, to be sung by all the people, wherein the choice Heads of their Schismatical pretensions were contained. The Psalm gins thus, 
a Ipse Psalmus habetur, Tom. 7. cap. 1.  Omnes qui gaudetis, etc. The Latin Tongue therefore, was become as the vulgar in Africa; and so the Learned show of many Countries in Europe, by reason of the Roman Conquests and Colonies, which for brevity I omit. But in after Ages, thro' the Incursions of the Goths and Vandals, and Lombard's, Gauls and Saracens into the Western Empire, there arose a great change and variety of Languages, insomuch that neither in Italy itself, nor in any other Country, did the people understand the Latin Tongue; and therefore the Argument of Universality for that Tongue now ceaseth. For the Gravity of the Latin Tongue, wherein that consists, I do not understand: and when Kemnitius urged (as we do) that the Latin was neither more sacred nor venerable than other Tongues, 
b Non dicimus eam graviorem aut sanctioram si ●ererba spectemus, sed hoc ipse esse gratiorem & magis venerandam quod nonsit vulgaris. Lib. 2. de ver. Dei, cap. 15. ad sinem.  Bellarmine acknowledges it to be true, if we consider the words themselves; but the Latin is more grave and venerable, because it is not the vulgar Tongue. Which answer of Bellarmine, if it hath any show of Truth and Reason, doth as well prove the English Tongue to be more grave and venerable in France and Spain, etc. then their own proper Tongues, because unto them it is not the vulgar Tongue. And yet this is one of his special Arguments which he urgeth, why the Majesty of Divine Service and public Offices should be in the Latin Tongue, which is not understood, because it requires a more grave & venerable Language, then are the vulgar Tongues of every Country 
c Ibidem. Videtur omnino majestas divin. offic requirere linguam ●agis gravem & venerandam, quam sunt illae quibus unlgo utimur. . We see wise and learned Men, in the defence of palpable Errors, sometimes are put to shifts, and urge Arguments of no weight and consequence, to amuse only Children and Fools. For aught therefore that hath been offered to prove it, the Latin Tongue appears not to be more grave and venerable than others.  Phil. 
Here hath been a long digression to no purpose.  Theoph. 
Confer notes, and you will find it pertinent to the present business, and it will be useful to other purposes hereafter.  Phil. 
I cannot divine what will be your future intendments, neither can you deny the Latin Tongue, to be the common Language in Europe, better understood then any other, at least by the Learned: so that with that Tongue you may travel into all parts, and meet with many who understand it.  Theoph. 
It is believed of late, the French Tongue will carry us farther than the Latin: but what Inference will you make, if we grant your Postulatum, that the Latin is the most communicating Language understood by the Learned in every Country.  Phil. 
It is most agreeable to the Communion of Saints in all parts of the World, that public Prayer should be made, in lingua communissima, as Bellarmine speaks, 
a Ibidem. Alias tolletur communicatio Ecclesiarum, etc.  In that Language which will most communicate with other Nations and Churches; that when Strangers and Travellers come among us, some of them may understand our Service, and join with us therein: otherwise, neither the learned nor unlearned will ever come to Church, but in their own Country.  Theoph. 
This is an Argument of great charity towards Foreigners, and of little regard to Natives: that the Service of the Church should be at home in an unknown Language, in Latin, to the end that Strangers when they travel in any Country may understand, some of them, the Service, and so be encouraged to come to Church. And in truth this Argument concludes for us, that public Prayer should always be in known and vulgar Tongues; for if Foreigners will not come to Church if they understand not the Service, for the same reason our Countrymen will not come to Church, if the Service should be performed in an unknown Tongue.  Phil. 
However, the Latin Tongue hath had long possession thro-out the Western Church in the Divine Service of every Country, until some new Masters and Reformers in divers places did thrust it out; and the general practice of the Church should much prevail with sober Men. 
b Epistola 118. Si quid herum per ●rbem frequentat Ecclesia, quin ita sit faciendum disputare insolentis. insania.  St Augustin saith, It is most insolent madness to dispute whether that should be done, which the Church thro-out the whole World doth practice.  Theoph. 
I have showed you how the Service of God, in an unknown Tongue, is contrary to God's Word. 
c Si divinae scrip. praescribii autcritas non est disputandum, etc.  And Augustin in the same Epistle, immediately before this Quotation of yours, had concluded, That if the Holy Scriptures have prescribed what is to be done, it is not to be doubted but we must do as we read and are directed. Again, I have showed how the Service in an unknown Tongue is contrary to the great end of public Prayer, wherein all the People of God should join with heart, and affection, and understanding, and devotion, putting an acceptable force upon the Almighty, by the fervency and importunity of the whole Congregation. I have likewise occasionally showed before, how the Latin Tongue was propagated with the Roman Conquests by their Colonies, and in time became even vulgarly known in many parts of the Western Empire: but upon the Inundation of the Goths and Vandals, etc. And upon the decay of the Roman Empire, the Roman Tongue every where gave place to the Conqueror, and now there is no Nation or People in the World who generally understand it. Now then, seeing the Latin Service was in use in divers Countries, because it was vulgarly understood; and for that reason only, as we may well suppose, the case being so apparently altered, and no common People now understanding the Latin Tongue, it ought in every Country to give place to that Language which is understood. And it is the insufferable Tyranny of the Pope and Church of Rome, so strictly to keep up the old custom of Latin Service in several Countries, when the reason of the first possession ceaseth, and the Language is not understood. And therefore in this case Augustin shall give an Answer to himself: 
a De Baptism contra Donatistas', lib 3. cap. 6. Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritati manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere.  I answer plainly, saith he, who doubteth, but that custom must yield unto apparent truth?  Phil. 
If any Nation find it a grievance, they may peaceably apply themselves to the Pope and his Cardinals, or to a General Council, and without doubt may have Indulgence and leave granted to have the Service in their own Tongue. For so I read, how Cyril an Hermit, who was a great Instrument under God, to convert Moravia to the Faith of the Gospel; having first instructed and Baptised Suatocopius their King (who was overcome in a signal Battle by Arnolphus the Emperor, and lived an Exile in the Wilderness;) 
b Aen●as Silvius, hist. Bohemica, cap. 13.  The History shows how this Cyril went to Rome, and earnestly solicited the Pope, that in Divine Service he might use the Sclavonian Tongue, which was in Moravia the vulgar, and it was granted.  Theoph. 
But why do you conceal the most memorable Passage of the Story, namely, That when Cyrils request met with great opposition in the sacred Senate of Cardinals, a voice was heard as from Heaven, saying, 
c Omnis spiritus laudet Deum, & omnis lingua confiteatur ei. Ib ad finem capitis.  Let every one that hath breath praise the Lord, and let every Tongue confess unto him. And so they were in that Senate miraculously convinced of the Truth now controverted between us, That every Nation should serve God, and praise him in their own Tongue, even in the public Service. Now you cannot deny the Story to be credible, seeing yourself have made use of the first part; and it was written by a famous Cardinal, who was afterwards chosen Pope. But as for Encouragements to ask leave, we shall find very few. For in the next Century, Hildebrand, a furious and turbulent Pope, known by the name of Gregory the 7th, flatly denied the same Request made by the Duke of Bohemia, Vuratislaus, in the behalf of his Subjects. And whereas in most of their Churches the People had before taken the liberty to use their own Language in the public Service, the Pope strictly inhibits it by the Authority of Peter; giving the Duke a charge for the honour of the Omnipotent God, with all his power, to resist such a vain and rash attemt. And the lower we descend in Church History, the more stiff we find the See of Rome to make any Concessions unto the People. The Immunities of the Clergy must be enlarged, and the Laics kept under a blind obedience; and to this end, their little or no understanding of God's Worship, and of the Mysteries 
ᵈ Binius, part. 1ma. 7 Tom. Conc l 6. Epistolarum Greg. Pap● 7. Epistola 11. Ne fiat quod à vestris imprud. exposcitur autorit. beati Petri inhibemus, etc.  of Religion, and of the Holy Scriptures, is very subservient.  Phil. 
You are proud, and of a Schismatical Spirit, and so pretend great difficulties to excuse good manners.  Theoph. 
It is the usual course with Men of your Church to supply their defect of Arguments and Reason with railing: I have all this while wondered at your patience, but you have not been long acquainted with their ways. But in answer to your reproof, I will tell you, It is no part of good manners, to ask leave to serve God in that way which he hath prescribed, with the heart, and with the lips, and with understanding also. 
a Lib. 30. cap. 5. contra Fauseum Manich. neque evim cenceditur secundum Veniam, nisi peccatum.  St Augustin tells us, Indulgence is given to such things as are not lawful in themselves. Prove it unlawful to understand our Prayers, and we will ask your leave to do so. And that we do not pretend difficulties, is manifest: for your Church is so far from allowing the public Service in a known Tongue, that it scarce permits any to use their own Language in their private Devotions; training up their Proselytes, Men, Women, and Children, to say their Pater noster, the Creed, the Penitential Psalms, their Ave Maries in Latin; and so like Parrots, they are taught to speak what they understand not in particular; to utter broken Latin, and many Incongruities; the intention of heart and mind all the while being not determined to those Petitions which they make with their lips. For although they have a moral persuasion that they say the Lords Prayer, when they mumble out the Pater noster, yet for the distinct Petitions they are altogether to seek, as I have had occasion to make the trial. For when a Female Proselyte of Rome gloried, that she could say her Prayers in Latin, rehearsing her Pater noster; when she came to the fifth Petition, Demitte nobis debita nostra, I interrupted her, and demanded what that Petition was, which the then put up to God; she answered, She could not tell distinctly, but she knew in general that she said the Lords Prayer. Now certainly, it is necessary that the heart should know when the tongue asks forgiveness of Sins, that so it may be smitten and deeply affected with a sense and shame of sin in general, and with some particular sins, which lie as a burden upon the Conscience, and would come into remembrance at that instant when we with understanding beg pardon. And the same reason holds for all requests made to God, we ought distinctly to understand them, that we may be suitably affected with a due sense of our wants. Did you never read the complaint which the Lord made to his Prophet Isaiah, chap. 29. ver. 13. This People draw near to me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me.  Phil. 
Yes, and 
b Lib. 2. De verbo Dei, cap. 16.  Bellarmin shows clearly, the Text is understood of those who profess Religion and the fear of God, but their hearts are full of iniquity; or such as do not heed their Prayers, their thoughts wand'ring about Worldly affairs, whilst they pray to God with their lips.  Theoph. 
These Interpretations are good and pertinent, and yet exempt not such also from the reproof of the Text, who understanding not their Prayers, cannot possibly mind and follow them with devout and affectionate hearts: such Petitioners can never be acceptable unto God. And you may observe the Artifice of Bellarmin, and other Schoolmen, to shift off Objections with some nice Distinction, and so to make the World believe, they have sufficiently answered them: as though (for instance) because that forementioned Text was a just reproof in Bellarmine's sense, therefore it was of no force in our sense, against such as pray with their lips, but understand not with their hearts. To conclude this Point, I desire you seriously to answer this question, Whether your Reason and your Conscience do not tell you, that a Prayer which is understood, is more beneficial to him that makes it, and to be preferred before a Prayer which is not understood?  Phil. 
I do easily grant it, and so doth 
a Lib. 2. De verb. Dei, cap. 16.  Bellarmine expressly in his Answer to calvin's Objection. Ex Oratione non intellectâ nulla est utiliras, quia Apostolus ait, mens sine fructu est. There is no benefit from a Prayer not understood: for the Apostle faith, My understanding is unfruitful, 1 Cor. 14. 14. saith Calvin. Whereunto Bellarmine answers, In that place the Apostle doth not condemn a Prayer which is not understood, but he prefers before it a Prayer which is understood: for, the Apostle doth not say, My Prayer is without benefit, but my mind is unfruitful.  Theoph. 
This is sufficient for my purpose: For seeing by their own confession, Prayers which are understood, and in a known Tongue, are to be preferred before Prayers not understood by the people: Why should the Church of Rome so pertinaciously cleave to that which is worse, and forsake the better part? And you cannot in reason condemn us, who have wisely chosen the better part.  Phil. 
I have given you other Considerations and Reasons to justify herein the practice of the Church of Rome. I refer you to them.  Theoph. 
And I refer you back to my Replies, and must for a Conclusion declare, That all you have said hath been so far from giving me the least satisfaction, that I am almost persuaded, your own Reason and Conscience is not fully reconciled to your pretensions and plea for the Church of Rome.  Phil. 
I abhor such Dissimulation: whether I have failed in my Judgement and Abilities, I know not; but I am sure the sincerity of mine Affection and of my utmost Endeavours, have not been wanting.  Theoph. 
I leave that to God and your own Conscience. And now we are warm in this Discourse, before we dismiss it, if you please, we will take into consideration the reading and hearing of God's Word: Whether all the People of God are not bound to be conversant in the Holy Scripture? And so by consequence, Whether the Bible should not be 
b Non reprehenditur, etc.  translated into the vulgar Tongue of every Nation, that all may read and understand it.  Phil. 
Will you undertake that all who read the Holy Scriptures in their own Tongue, shall understand them?  Theoph. 
Better, then if they do not read them; or if they were locked up from them in an unknown Language.  Phil. 
St Peter saith, 2 Pet. 16. They who are unlearned and unstable, do wrist St Paul's Epistles; as also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.  Theoph. 
He speaks there expressly of some things hard to be understood in St Paul's Writings, which they that are unstable and unlearned do wrest, etc. but do you find that Peter, upon this consideration, either forbids or discourageth the unlearned to read the Scripture. The Text implies, that the unlearned did read Paul's Epistles, notwithstanding their difficulty to be understood: Doth he there, or any where else, to prevent the danger of wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction, take order they should not read them?  Phil. 
I do not find any such prohibition.  Theoph. 
Do you not find he doth encourage and command them in the same Epistle?  Phil. 
There is a passage which your side usually quotes, 2 Pet. 1. 19 We have a more sure word of Prophecy, whereunto ye do well, that ye take ●eed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place. But we may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ●●e give heed as well, yea more safely, unto the Word of God Preached and Interpreted by the Church and her Ministers, then when we read it ourselves: and therefore this Text doth not infer, that the People should read the Scripture, but only give heed unto those things which are Preached.  Theoph. 
We may give heed to the Holy Scriptures also when we read them, and therefore your Interpretation doth not exclude ours: but it is your usual shift, to show how a Text may be taken in one sense which you allow of, and so think to exclude all other senses which you do not approve. But in earnest, Would you have the People know no more of the Scripture, than what they hear the Priest Interpret and Preach upon? The Epistles and Gospels, and the Lessons, are publicly read in the Churches, but in an unknown Tongue, in Latin; and little Preaching you have, or reading the Holy Scripture to the People in a Tongue they understand: you scarce allow any vulgar Translations of the Bible into the Language of every Country.  Phil. 
You are forward to lay these things to our charge; but 
a Concedi Lectionem ejusmodi Libr. iis qui utiliter, & cum fructa câuti possint, & qui facult. ab Ordin. obtinnerint, l. 2. De verbo Dei, cap. 15.  Bellarmine shows out of the Index Ex purgatorius, set out by Pope Pius quartus, in the 4th Rule of the Index, That the reading of Bibles translated into the vulgar Tongue, is granted to such as can read them with benefit, and have a faculty from the Ordinary so to do.  Theoph. 
Yes, such as pretend to moderation in your Church, would seem to allow Translations of the Holy Scripture into the vulgar Tongue of every Country, and the common People to read them, but with great caution. First, the Translations must be made out of the vulgar Latin, and not out of the Original Hebrew or Greek; so the Rhemish Testament in English, and the Louvain Translation in French. Secondly, None may use or read these Bible's thus Translated, without a Licence from the Bishop of the Diocese, and he judgeth they may read them with benefit.  Phil. 
Would you have a Licence granted unto them, who would read the Holy Scripture without benefit?  Theoph. 
No: but this Licence granted to some, implies a general restraint upon all from reading the Scripture without leave in a known Tongue; as tho to read the Scripture were a thing in itself unlawful, and prohibited unto all, and only allowed to some by Indulgence upon special Considerations. You heard before out of St Augustin, 
a Nihil enim conceditur secundam veniam nisi peccatum.  Nothing is granted by an Indulgence and after the way of Pardon, but Sin. And withal, to show that those of your side are no real Friends to vulgar Translations, and to the common People's reading the Scripture, you will find that Bellarmine, who pretends to moderation in this Point, yet urgeth his Arguments both against vulgar Translations, and the vulgar reading of the Scripture, as unprofitable and prejudicial; in the same manner, as do the most rigid sort of Papists, who bitterly inveigh against, and openly condemn the common People's reading the Scripture, and Translations in their Language to help them, as I will show hereafter. And upon this account, few there are who take out a Licence: but the People are altogether strangers to the Word of God, and entertain a prejudice against reading the Scriptures, as being not able to understand them, and being in danger to wrest them to their destruction: and they find they are more in favour with their Priests and Confessors, when they do not desire to look into the Bible, and are persuaded it would hurt them. Nay, the Learned are very ignorant of the Scriptures, and altogether neglect them. Claudius' Espencaeus, a Parisian Doctor, in his Comment upon the first Chapter of Titus, about the middle, tells us, that he remembers how a noble Italian Bishop told him, That 
b Conterrances suos quodamnodo abhorrere â studio Theologico, ne sic fiant Haeretici, quasi vero Haereses ex Scripturae studi●●, ac non potius ex neglectu ac ignorantiâ nascantur.  his Countrymen did abstain from, and abbor to study Divinity (or the Scriptures) lest they should become Heretics; as though (saith Espencaeus) Heresies did spring from the Holy Scriptures, and not rather from the ignorance and neglect of them. And 
c Robertus Stephanus respons. ad Censuram Theolog. Parisiensium, in praesatione pag. 9 Respondebant se illud apud Hierenymum ●ut in decrelis legisse, quid vero novum Testamentum esset, ignorare.  Robert. Stephens declares, that in some Conflicts and Discourse with the Sorbon Doctors, when he asked them, Where, in the New Testament, such a thing was written; they answered, They had read it in Jerome, or in the Decretals; but what the New Testament was they knew not. Again he reports, how one of the Sorbon College was wont to say, I wonder that these young men allege to us the New Testament, 
a Perdiam ego habebam plus quam quinquaginta annos cum nesciebam quid esset novum Testamentum.  By this Light, I was above 50 years old before I knew what the New Testament was.  Phil. 
When you examine well the Reasons which the Learned give against the People's reading the Scripture, you will not so severely condemn them.  Theoph. 
In due time I will take an account of them: But in the first place I will show how the Holy Scripture, and the Holy Fathers of the Primative Church, are directly opposite to the practice of your Church, and the Opinions of your Learned Men, in withholding the Scripture from the People.  Phil. 
You are a Man of great undertaking.  Theoph. 
Let the World judge of the performance. First, The Jews were the chosen People of God, unto whom were committed the Divine Oracles. Now Moses, in Deuteronomie, giving unto them a brief recapitulation of God's Law, and of all the Statutes which he had commanded them, once and again declares unto all the People, Deut. 6. 1. These are the Commandments, the Statutes, and the Judgements, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them, etc. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart, and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittesis in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be as frontlets upon thine eyes, etc. ver. 6, 7, 8, 9 We have likewise the same charge given in a following Chapter, Deut 11. ver. 18, 19, 20. Therefore ye shall lay up these my words in your heart, and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. And ye shall teach them your children, etc.  Phil. 
These Exhortations may seem to relate unto the ten Commandments which were given in the 5th Chapter of Deuteronomie; and which they were all obliged to learn by heart, and to write upon their Frontlet's and Phylacteries': but not to the whole Law of Moses.  Theoph. 
Observe how the word is varied: These are the Statutes, the Judgements, and Commandments, etc. to show how it apparently includes the whole Law of God given by Moses, to be kept and observed by the Jews. But to proceed, the Prophet David declareth, Psal. 1. verse 2 The man to be blessed, whose delight is in the Law of the Lord, and in his Law doth meditate day and night.  Phil. 
Meditation is not reading: we meditate upon those things which we have heard, and have been taught, to fix them in our memories.  Theoph. 
And so we may meditate upon these things which we do read. This is the old Fallacy, to thew how a Text may be taken in one sense, and so think to exclude all other senses. But the Author of the Commentaries usually attributed to St Jerome, shows wherein this Meditation consists: 
a In legendis Script. & faciend. iis quae scripia sunt.  In reading the Scriptures, and doing them. And Basil showeth in the same Psalm, how the Duty and the Blessing concern Women as well as Men. 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Why, doth the Prophet pronounce only the Man blessed? Hath he excluded the Women from this Blessedness? God forbidden. Their virtue is the same, as their Creation was equal, and the reward shall be alike to both. Again, our Blessed Saviour sends the Jews to the Scriptures, which testify of him, John 5. 39 Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they have testified of me.  Phil. 

c Relect. controvers. 5. qu. 3. art. 4.  Stapleton showeth, how this direction was given to the Scribes and Pharisees, the Learned of the Jews, and not to the multitude: For in the 33d verse of this 5th Chapter, our Saviour saith to them, Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth: Now in the first Chapter it appears, that the Scribes and Pharisees sent unto John.  Theoph. 
Nothing less: We read 1 John 1. 19 ver. 24. the Jews sent Priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou? and that they who were sent were of the Pharisees; not that the Scribes and Pharisees sent them. And 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Cyril expressly saith, That Christ gave the exhortation to search the Scriptures, unto the People of the Jews: and the 5th Chapter thro-out, showeth our Saviors discourse was with the People; some opposing, and others believing him.  Phil. 
Stapleton gives another answer to that Text: 
e Christum non constituit generale praeceptum aut necessarium & perpet. quod omnes & semper obliget.  That it was no general Precept necessary and perpetual, which should always oblige all men; that it was given by way of indulgence to the Jews now, because of their unbelief. For he had before stated the 
f Grassantibus Haeresibus tetam spript permitendam aliquibus.  Question, and granted, That when Heresies did abound, all the Scripture should be allowed to some.  Theoph. 
He was so over-seen in his first answer, that he gives the second with very great caution: No general Precept, necessary and perpetual, which should always oblige all Men; so many limitations to help him at a dead lift. But as to the later part of his Answer, if because of their unbelief they were exhorted to search the Scripture, and when Heresies prevail and Errors; then now certainly as much as ever: and they should not envy us the Scripture in our vulgar Tongue, who are so hard to believe their new coined Articles, and therefore by them reputed Heretics: Neither should they withhold the Scripture from their Laity, seeing Errors so much abound in the World. But leaving these shifts, will you hear what Origin saith to this Text. 
a Homil. 2. in Isaid. utinam omnes faceremus quod scriptum est. Scrut. Script.  I would that all of us would observe, and do that which is written: Search the Scripture. hear also what Basil saith, 
b Lib. 2. de Bapt. cap. 4.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; let us bear with our Lord, saying, Search the Scripture. Hear what Augustin, 
c Serm. 45. De verb. Dom. Judaeis dicit caput nostrum, quod vobis Corpus, Serut. Script.  Christ the Head said to the Jews, what his Body the Church saith unto the Donatists, Search the Scripture. You see St Augustin urgeth the Enemies of Truth and of the Church to search the Scripture, as the best way to reclaim them. You have heard how the Jews were exhorted by Moses, and David, and by our Blessed Saviour, to search and read the Scripture. In the next place we will consider Believers under the Gospel: we shall read Acts 17. 11. how they of Berea were commended, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scripture daily, whether those things were so, as Paul and Silas taught them. The Holy Ghost saith, These were more worthy than those of Thessalonica, etc.  Phil. 
The Greek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, more noble; Men of better parts and abilities; and to such we allow the reading of the Scripture, as not being so much in danger to be led by the Word of God into Error.  Theoph. 
I had thought the Word of God would lead Men into Truth, rather than into Error.  Phil. 
Yes, sober, wise, and learned Men: but the unlearned wrest the Scripture to their destruction, as you have heard.  Theoph. 
I have already answered that place of Peter; but for your Criticism upon the Original Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Men of more eminent Parts and Learning; you may observe how the commendation is given to the Synagogue of the Jews at Berea, and their eminency was, That they did mind Paul's Preaching, and compare the Scripture, as in truth, True Piety is the best Nobility, and I may, with better colour, invert your Argument, Because they were Men of Eminency and Learning, they did search the Scripture, say you: because they did search the Scripture, they were Men of Eminency and Learning, say I. But Chrysostom 
d In locum. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  gives the best Interpretation of the word: They were more noble, that is, more gentle and courteous than those of Thessalonica; who as we read, verse 5. Being moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows, and set all the City in an uproar; and assaulted the house of jason, and sought to bring Paul and Silas out to the people, etc. but these of Berea were not of such a persecuring turbulent Spirit, and therefore they were more noble. Again, St Paul exhorts the Coloss●tns, Col. 3. 16. Let the word of God dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in Psalms, and Hymns, and Spiritual Songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.  Phil. 
The Text answers itself: Such as must teach and admonish others, must be well versed in the Scripture: but it doth not follow, that such should be so who must learn and hear.  Theoph. 
This is a mere shift: the Original Words are, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; and your vulgar Translation renders it, vos metipsos, reaching and admonishing yourselves: or if the scope of the Words favour our Translation, Teaching and admonishing one another. You see it is mutual, and implies the duty of all Christians within their own Sphere, to instruct others; one Neighbour another in mutual conference; Parents their Children; Masters their Family: And to this end the word of God should dwell in them abundantly. Observe what Chrysostom 
a In Locum. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc.  saith upon this Text, directly against your Interpretation: Hear all ye who are immersed in the Affairs of the World, and have Wife and Children to take care of, how you especially are exhorted to read the Scripture with great diligence.  Phil. 
The Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, rather signifies Permission, than Exhortation.  Theoph. 
And so should you permit secular Men to be conversant in the Scripture: but this will not help you, for the Exhortation, or rather Command, runs not by way of permission, but of duty. In the same Homily 
b Hom. 16. In Epistolam ad Coloss. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  he tells every one of his hearers, That he should not wait for any other Teacher: Thou hast, saith he, the Oracles of God, none can instrust thee like them. And then it follows, 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  I beseech you, hear ye men of the World: Buy you Bibles, which are the souls physic; if not, purchase the New Testament, or Paul's Epistles, or the Acts of the Apostles, or the Gospels, Masters that will never intermit Instruction. And then he rounds them in the ear, 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  This is the cause of all evils, not to know the Scripture. And lastly, in order to their instructing one another, he tells them, That they ought to help, and not leave all the burden upon him: They were sheep, and must be fed; but they were not brute Beasts, but a rational Flock, 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and might so learn as in due time even to instruct their neighbours. And so I hope this holy Father hath fully answered you.  Phil. 

f Lib. 2. de verb. Dei, c. 16. Chrysost. amplificat, in concionibus utebatur.  Bellarmine, and others, observe Chrysostom to have been a great Orator, and to use Hyperboles and Amplifications according to the occasion: and he gives an instance pertinent to your purpose out of another place, where he saith, ᵍ It is impossible any one should obtain salvation, unless he be always conversant in reading Spiritual Books: which you know cannot be true in a strict sense; for many that cannot read, may be saved.  Th. 
The Father speaks of Men that can read, and by their neglect exclude themselves from a possibility of Salvation; and that others who cannot read, might be diligent to hear others reading the Scripture, in the Church, and in their Families: And if this be your way to answer the Fathers when they fully declare against you, to say, They speak not Doctrinally, but like Orators by way of Amplification, you must needs carry all before you. Put you will find in the Homily upon Lazarus, how Chrysostom makes it his great business to exhort all his Congregation (in the Preface) to study the Scripture: This, saith he, I Preach in public, and this I exhort in private, and will never desist from so doing, 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That not only in the Church, but also in your houses, ye should diligently read the Scripture: 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  And I hate, saith he, that frigid answer, and worthy all condemnation, That because ye have Trades, and worldly Business, and Wife, and Children, therefore ye cannot be so well versed in the Scripture: And that in your Opinion, I should rather give this charge to study the Scripture, unto Men separate from the World; unto Monks, and Hermits, and the Clergy. What sayest thou man? (as the Father goes on) Is it not thy business to attend unto the Scripture, because thou art encumbered with myriads of worldly affairs? I tell thee, for this very reason thou shouldst apply thyself to the Scripture, more than such who are free from cares; for amidst thy multiplicity of business, thou dost want the help and conduct of the Scripture, more than they who are secluded from the world: Thy Wife may vex thee, thy Children grieve thee, thy Servant anger thee, thy Friend envy thee, thy Enemy beset thee with snares, the Judge oppress thee, thy Neighbour curse thee; and against all these and other assaults, how necessary will be the Panoply of the Scripture, the only Physic against all the maladies of the World. After all this, judge whether Bellarmine's shift will serve his turn, touching Chrysostom' s Oratory and Amplifications: No, it was the good Father's business, and principal part of Doctrine, in many Homilies to recommend the study of the Scripture unto his Congregation.  Phil. 
But you may read another answer Bellarmine gives to these vehement Exhortations of Chrysostom, 
d Quoniam dediti erant homines t●●atris spect. aliisque 〈◊〉, & script. divinas nunquam legebant.  Because the People of that great City, Constantinople, were much given to Plays and Sights, and other trisling Divertisements; and such as were sit and able did not look into the Bible, therefore he was so solicitous to quicken them. 
ᵃ Hom. 3. in Lazarum, Tom. 5. etc.   Theoph. 
Doth not the same Cause ever enforce the same Exhortation? Are not Men too much addicted to the Vanities, and Lusts, and Cares of the World, and therefore need these sacred Divertisements? But by these whiffling Answers, you may perceive how your great Bellarmin is a Trifler, and so are all his Seconds, who have the confidence, without show of reason, to shift off Arguments and Texts of Scripture, which are as clear as the Sun against them: But such weak Answers fortify our Objections, and do in truth manifest, They are so convincing, that Men must be frivolous or silent in their Solutions.  Phil. 
I ascribe this Triumph before the Victory, and this insulting over your Adversaries, unto the partiality of your Judgement in your own cause.  Theoph. 
To decline this Imputation, I shall choose to submit all to the impartial Reader; and pass from the testimony of Holy Scripture, unto the testimony of the Holy Fathers of the Church, who exhort all Christians to the search and study of the Scripture. And although we meet with great variety of Testimonies collected by learned Protestants out of the ancient Fathers, yet for brevity sake I will produce only such as I have had the opportunity to read myself, and if occasion serves, will hereafter be ready to produce the rest. 
a Lib. de spectaculis, ad finem, Script sacris incumbat Christianus fidelis, ibi inveniet condigna fidei spectacula  Cyprian willing to withdraw Christians from the Roman theatres and Sports, having condemned them for their Idolatry and Impurities, he directs Christians to the contemplation of God's Works, in the excellent frame, and beauty, and order of the Creation, and more especially to read the Scripture. Let the Believing Christian, saith he, make the holy Scripture his study, where he shall find excellent discoveries agreeable to his precious Faith.  Phil. 
This Testimony of Cyprian, justifies Beauties former Answer, That because the People were much given to frequent the theatres and Scenes, full of obscenity and vice, therefore for that season Chrysostom did divert them, by a better employment, exhorting them to study the Scripture: But this proves not that they should be always read by the common people, but only upon such special Considerations.  Theoph. 
When such Motives and Considerations are wanting, let Men and Women lay aside their Bibles; but as long as we live in a wicked World, there will be always need of the light and conduct of God's Holy Word, to lead us out of the works of Darkness and way of Unrighteousness. But I pray hear others: 
b Homil 9 in Levit. Oplamus ut operam detis non selum in Ecclesia, etc.  Origen tells his hearers, We do hearty wish, that ye would labour not only in the Church to hear God's word, but also in your houses to be exercised in his Law day and night. And he proceeds, In vain do ye complain that the flesh is weak, while ye neglect to nourish and fortify the spirit, by reading the Holy Scripture, and by Prayer, and hearing the instruction of the Word. And elsewhere, as you have heard before, he passionately wisheth, 
a Homil. 2. in Isaia.  Would God we all would follow that which is written, Search the Scriptures. 
b Lib. 12. de praepar. Evang.  Eusebius Caesariensis assigns the reading of the Holy Scriptures both unto Babes in Christ, and unto strong Men, with this difference, The first sort must simply read and believe the Scripture as most true, and the infallible Word of God: But Men of mature Learning and Judgement, should dive into the profound Mystery and meaning of the Scripture: you may read his words in the first Page of that Book. The same Eusebius wrote three Books, as Jerome reports, of the Life of Pamphilus his great Friend, which are not extant. But 
c Lib. 1. Apol. adversus Ruffinum. Script. Sanctas non ad leg. sed ad habendum tribuebat, non solum viris sed & feminis.  Jerome citys this Passage out of the third Book, in commendation of Pamphilus: Who is virtuous, and not a Friend of Pamphilus, who supplied food and necessaries to the poor, and distributed the Holy Scriptures, not only to Men, but Women, who were desirous to read them, for which end he purchased many Bibles? 
d In Psal. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc.  Basil the Great tells us, All Scripture is written by Divine Inspiration, and profitable, and therefore given by the Holy Ghost, that every one of us might choose a proper remedy for his disease, as out of a common Apothecary's shop, f r his Soul.  Phil. 
As the Holy Scriptures have Physic for all Diseases, so the Application should be well made by our Spiritual Physicians, otherwise the Patient may miscarry; and therefore we hold the People should hear and receive the Scripture from the Priest's mouth.  Theoph. 
This gloss contradicts the Text, for the Father saith, 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Every one should choose his proper remedy out of the common treasury. Again, 
f Lib. de Parad. c. 12. Gentiles aut, etc.  Ambrose directs a Gentile who would believe, or a Catechumen who would receive farther Instruction, unto the living Waters of the Holy Scripture, without the corrupt Channels of Interpreters. You see the Holy Scripture ought not to be withheld from Unbelievers, and Unbaptised. But Jerome for the Latin Church, and Chrysostom for the Greek, speak so fully to this Point, that we may supersede all other Testimonies. Jerome writes many Epistles to Virgins, to Women, concerning themselves and the Institution of their Children, the Government of their Families; and above all, commends to them the diligent reading of the Scripture. In his Epistle to Laeta, a Noble Dame, 
g De Instit. filiae. nec alibi reperiant nisi in adyto script. Prophet. Apostolos de spiritualibus sciscitantem, etc.  He gives in charge to inure her beloved Daughter to the study of the Scripture, That none should find her in the way of the World, amidst the throng and tumult of Playfellows and Kins-folk, but in the recesses of the Holy Scripture, consulting the Prophets and Apostles about Spiritual concerns. Instead of fine Clothes and Jewels, let her love the Book of God; let her learn the Psalter, and divert herself with those Songs. In the Proverbs of Solomon, let her learn Morals. In the Ecclesiastes, to despise the World. In Job, Patience and Virtue. Let her proceed to the Evangelists, and never lay them out of her hands; & so to the Acts of the Apostles and their Epistles: and having enriched her heart with these Divine Tresures, let her commit to memory the Prophets, and the Pentateuch, etc. And at last, without danger, let her learn the Canticles. In another Epistle to a Virgin, 
a All Demetriadem. de Virg. servandâ. Spendeounum illud tibi, nata deo, praeque dominibus unum praedicam, & repetens, etc.  O thou that art born of God, saith he, This one thing above all, I must give in charge, repeating it over and over again, That thou possess thy heart with the love of reading the Holy Scripture. Love the Bible, and wisdom will assuredly love thee. In an Epistle to Salvina, persuading her to keep herself a Widow, he faith, 
b Semper in manibus sit divina Lectio.  Let the Bible be always in thy hand to read it. In an Epistle to Celautia concerning the government of her Family, he presseth the same Exhortation, 
c Semper in manibus, & jugiter in ment volvantur.  Let the Holy Scripture be always in thy hand, and in thy mind. In Marcella's Epitaph, 
d Epistola ad Principiam div. Script. ardour erat incredib. semper que cantabat, In 〈…〉 rde meo abscondo eloq. tua, ut non peccem, etc.  he gives this commendation of her, She had an incredible thirst after the Holy Scripture, and ever sang, I have hid thy word within my heart, that I might not sin against thee, etc. and that she became an Oracle to resolve doubts concerning the Scripture. I might collect many more such passages out of this Author, but I will content myself with one general Exhortation, to read the Scripture instead of all. 
e Praefatione in Epistelam ad Ephesies, si quiequam est quod in hac vita, etc.  If there be any thing, saith the good Father, which should make a wise man choose to live, and weather out the storms and troubles of our present state, it is the knowledge and meditation of the Scripture. For whereas (as he goes on) herein we chief differ from other living Creatures, that we are rational and can speak, and all Reason and Language is contained in the Holy Scripture, whereby we know God, and are not ignorant wherefore we were created, I marvel any there should be, who either out of sloth and negligence, will not learn themselves these excellent things, or think others worthy reprehension who do study them. And now tell me, Have you not enough of Jerome? Would he not marvel, think you, at your new Doctors, who as much discourage the People from reading the Scripture, as he with all his excellency of Grace and Eloquence doth excite them?  Phil. 
I must confess. I never looked to hear so much to this purpose.  Theoph. 
Have a little patience, and you will find Chrysostom as full and emphatical. Like advice he gives to Gaudentius for the Education of Pacatula his Daughter. ᶠ Let her learn the Psalter by heart, and before she 
ᶠ Discat Psalterium memoriter, etc.  comes to maturity of age, let her make the Books of Solomon, the Evangelists, the Apostles and Prophets, her chief treasure. In his first Tome, he tells his hearers, 
a Hom. 10. in Genesin. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We may at home, before and after meals, taking into our hands the Holy Bible, feed our Souls: for as the Body doth want corporal nourishment, so doth the Soul spiritual, we being thereby strengthened against the assaults of the flesh, and our restless enemy, who sets upon us to captivate our Souls. And therefore, saith he, the Prophet David calls him Blessed, who meditates in the Law of the Lord day and night. And then he adds, This is our salvation, this our spiritual wealth, this our security. If we arm ourselves daily by spiritual bearing and reading, and discourse, we shall never be over come, but frustrate all the devices of the evil Spirit, and obtain the kingdom of Heaven. Again, speaking of the Holy Scriptures, he tells them, 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  They are spiritual food, the nerves and sinews of Ratiocination, making the soul vigorous and in tune, and more Philosophical, not suffering her to be carried away with brutish passions, giving her a swift wing, and translating her (as I may so speak) into Heaven: Wherefore I beseech you, let us not deprive ourselves of such advantages, but in our own houses let us give all diligence in reading the Holy Scripture. In his Tom. 2. 
c Hom. 29. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  He upbraids them of not minding the Scripture, And who is there, saith he, of this great Congregation, that, being required, can say one of David's Psalms, or any other part of Scripture? 
d Hom. 2. in Matt. ad finem.  And what do ye plead for your excuse? I an no Monk, I have a Wife and Children, and the care of a Family, etc.  Phil. 
He justly reproves such, who out of supine negligence had learned none of David's Psalms, or other parts of the Scriptures: but our Church recommends the Penitential Psalms, and many others, to be learned by heart.  Theoph. 
That which follows, expressly mentions reading the Bible: 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  This mars all, saith ●e, that ye think it belongs only to Monks to read the Word of God, when as ye want the comfort of the Scripture more than they: such as are conversant in secular affairs, and every day receive wounds, do most stand in need of Physic. And he goes on to tell them, 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That if there be a sin greater than the neglect of reading God's Word, it is this, To be persuaded we need not read the Scripture. This is the studied suggestion of the devil; whereas Paul tells us, These things were written for our instruction, 1 Cor. 10. 11. I must needs declare to you, Philodoxus, It makes my heart even to bleed, to think how such satanical suggestions (as Chrysostom justly called them) should now become the avowed Doctrine of a Christian Church, if I may in Charity be allowed to call her so.  Phil. 
Your Zeal, Theophilus, transports you beyond all reason. 
g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.   Theoph. 
I would to God I had no reason for this Zeal and Indignation, but I have much more to produce out of this Father. In another Homily he gives advice, that 
a Hom. 5. Matth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  They should not immediately fall upon worldly business after a Sermon, but call their Wives and Children together, and take the Bible, and make them partake of those things he had heard.  Phil. 
This we approve well, that such as come to Church should heed what is taught them, and carry it with them; and in their Families, repeat and instruct those that were absent.  Theoph. 
But there is something more than you allow, 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That they should have Bibles in their Houses, and take and read to their Wives and Children at home the Text and Proofs, etc. Again, in the same Tome, 
c Hom. 32. in Johan. ad finem. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  from the example of the Woman of Samaria, enquiring of our Blessed Saviour about the true Worship of God, etc. he condemns his hearers of negligence and indifferency in matters of Religion: And then he proposeth the Question, Which of you, being in his house, will take into his band the Book of Christianity, 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and search what is contained therein? You shall find Dice in every House, but the Bible in few: and such as have the Scriptures, are as though they had them not: They clasp them up, and lock them in their Chests, and are solicitous for the finest Paper, and the fairest Letter, but not to read them. They boast they have the Bible in Golden Letters, and know nothing of the Contents. But the Scriptures were not given, that we should have them in our Books, but engraven in our hearts. I speak not this, saith he, forbidding you to have Bibles, (
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  I exhort and earnestly beg, you would procure them) but I desire also the sense and words of Holy Scripture should be carried in your minds. And if the Devil dares not enter into an house where there is a Bible, much less will he draw near to a soul that is fraught with Sentences of Scripture; neither sin, nor the evil Spirit, will attemt a mind so well furnished. 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Sanctify therefore thy Mind, and sanctify thy Body, having the Holy Scripture always in thy Heart, and in thy Mouth. In his third Tome, 
g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  in his Preface to the Epistle to the Romans, he grieves his hearers were not better acquainted with Paul and his Epistles; and tells them, If they would with alacrity give themselves to reading the Scripture, they should want no other thing: or, if I mistake him not, no other Interpreter. For the promise of Christ shall never fail: seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Soon after he tells them, 
h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  From hence dospring up myriads of evils, even from the ignorance of the Scripture: from hence pernicious Heresies, neglected lives, and labour in vain. For as they who are destitute of the light, cannot make straight paths; so such as do not take along with them the light of God's Word, in many things necessarily do off end and stumble, as walking in utter darkness. But more than all this we may read in his fifth Tome, in the third Homily upon Lazarus, and I have already instanced in several passages of that Sermon, where he also tells us, That as Workmen cannot be without their Tools, so neither a Christian without the Holy Scripture. And he concludes the Preface of that Homily (wherein all these passages are to be found) with this asseveration, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  It is impossible, I say it is impossible, that any one who gives himself up to read the Holy Scripture with due observation, should lose his labour. And now after such full and frequent Exhortations of the Holy Scripture, and of the Holy Fathers, made unto all sorts and conditions of Men, to search, and hear, and read the Scriptures, and to be conversant in them, Would you think it possible a new Generation of Doctors should arise, and discourage, and forbidden the People to study the Scriptures, urging Arguments to show the great and many Inconveniencies of so doing; as much as they can restraining the Translations of the Bible into the vulgar Tongue of every Country?  Phil. 
What the sad experience of later Times had taught them, they have reason to declare, and to suit their Canons and Prohibitions to the season, as the wisdom of the Church did judge most expedient; and when you examine well their Arguments and Reasons, perhaps you may be constrained to allow of them.  Theoph. 
There must be a strange transformation of men's minds and manners, when the Holy Scriptures, which were written for our Instruction, and to make men wise unto Salvation, shall prove pernicious unto their Souls.  Phil. 
As wholefom Food unto sick Stomaches.  Theoph. 
But the Holy Scriptures are both Food and Physic to the Soul, and were certainly written for all times, and for all conditions of Men.  Phil. 
I pray have patience to hear their Reasons, before you answer them.  Theoph. 
I expect first you should return a sober Answer, unto the Holy Fathers of the Primitive Church, who (as you have heard) do so seriously recommend the study of the Scripture unto all Men.  Phil. 
I did not expect you should use so many shifts and subterfuges, and I am almost persuaded, that being conscious to yourself, of their convincing Evidence, therefore you decline to hear their Arguments.  Theoph. 
That will appear in due time and place: but have you in earnest no Reply to make, unto those Exhortations of the Fathers to read the Bible?  Phil. 
Your principal Quotations are out of Chrysostom; and Bellarmine hath told you, He was an Orator, and used to speak Hyperboles to affect his Auditory.  Theoph. 
And I have showed, how this good Father, thro-out his Works, so frequently recommends the study of the Scripture, as a substantial point of Doctrine and Duty, which he pressed upon his hearers, not as an embellished flower of his Rhetoric. But I pray, What Answer doth Bellarmine, or any other Champions of your Church, give unto the other Fathers?  Phil. 
I do not find they have taken much notice of the rest; they suppose, perhaps, one Answer will serve them all.  Theoph. 
As one Shoe will sit every Man's Foot. And this indeed is very observable, That Bellarmine in his great reading should omit Jerome, and Basil, and Origen, and the rest, and take notice only of Chrysostoms' Expressions, and thift them off as Rhetorical Flashes and Hyperboles, and not serious Exhortations to read the Scripture. His subtlety, without doubt, promted him to conceal the others for the advantage of his Cause, lest the pregnant Testimonies of so many Fathers, should prevail with sober Men to search the Scripture, more than all the Prohibitions of their Church, and novel Arguments, to restrain them from it. And it is his Artifice, that he might seem Ingenious, to take notice of one Father opposing him, that so the unwary Reader being not well versed in the Fathers, might suppose all the others to have been silent, or on his side in the Controversy.  Phil. 
You are pleasant with your own Conceits, but their Arguments will make you work to answer them.  Theoph. 
I have great confidence in the merits of the Cause, and do not despair of a ready Answer unto all opposition that shall be made against such a mesured Truth, which we defend.  Phil. 
Bellarmine 
a Lib. 2. De verbo Dei, c. 15.  shows, how the Old Testament was publicly read to the Jews in the Hebrew Tongue, when the People did not understand it; because in the Captivity the Jews had forgotten their own Language, and learned the Chaldee and the Syriac: And therefore after their return into Judea, it is written, Nehem. 8. 7, 8, 9, 12. how the Priests and Levites caused the People to understand the Law. They did read in the Book distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. Nehemiah, and Ezra, and the Levites, taught the People: and all the People made great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.  Theoph. 
Here is not one word to show the People did not understand the Language wherein the Holy Scriptures were read, but that the Priests and Levites gave the sense, interpreted to them the Law of God, and caused them to understand the meaning of the Words: nay, it is expressly said, ver. 2. That Ezra brought the Law before the Congregation, both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding. And again, ver. 3. before those that could understand, and all the People were attentive unto the Book of the Law. Neither may we well suppose that they had forgot their Mother Tongue in the time of their Captivity, but only mixed, and corrupted it, in some Words. Seventy Years is too short a date to change the Language of a People. Withal, it might be remembered that some Learned Men of the Roman Communion, have said, That the Jews were not so long Captives in Babylon; that from the desolation of Jerusalem, when Nabuchadnezzar burned the City, and the Temple, until Cyrus his command for the Jews return, there were but 30. Years: And that the term of 70. Years, so much spoken of by the Prophet Jeremiah, did bear date from the 13th Year of King Josiah's Reign, about the time when Ninevy was destroyed, and the Assyrian Monarchy was translated to Babylon; and those great Neighbours proved very terrible, and by the Prophet were pointed out to be the destruction of Jerusalem. And withal, we know the three last Prophets, after the return of the Jews from Babylon, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachy, encouraging the People to build the Temple, and the City, spoke unto them in the Hebrew Tongue, and therefore doubtless the People understood it. Nay we read expressly, Acts 22. 2. St Paul spoke to the Jews, gathered together in a great multitude and tumult, in the Hebrew Tongue, and therefore for a while heard him with patience; when they heard that he spoke in the Hebrew Tongue to them, they kept the more silence: And it is manifest by that which follows, ver. 21. that they understood him.  Phil. 
Bellarmine brings a Confirmation, that the Jews did not understand the Hebrew Tongue, out of the Gospel of St John, Joh. 7. 49. But this people, that know not the Law, is cursed.  Theoph. 
Both he and you may blush to own such a simple Proof. The Scribes and Pharisees there pronounced the multitude that followed Christ accursed, not because they know not Hebrew, wherein the Law was written; but because, in their account, they mis-applied the Prophecies of the Messiah, to Christ. And if the Hebrew Tongue was forgotten among the Jews, why did Matthew write his Gospel, as is supposed, in Hebrew, for the better Information of his Countrymen?  Phil. 
Bellarmine likewise shows, how even to this day, the Jews in their Synagogues have the Scriptures read in Hebrew, although most of them understand it not.  Theoph. 
Let the Synagogues of the Jews, and the Church of Rome in this regard, lay their heads together, to justify their unreasonable practice by the Authority of one another.  Phil. 
But what say you to this next Argument, which seems demonstrative: The Apostles and Disciples preached the Gospel unto all People, Nations and Languages, and yet they did write the Gospels, and their Epistles only in Hebrew and Greek. Nay Paul, you know, wrote his Epistles to the Romans in Greek, which was not their vulgar Tongue.  Theoph. 
There is a great difference to be observed between Preaching the Gospel, and committing it to Writing. The Apostles were endowed 
● See Tirinus his Chronicon ●actum, c 〈…〉. ●5.  with the gift of Tongues, that whither soever they should come, they might Preach the Gospel of Salvation unto the People in that Tongue which they understood: But being to leave the Records of Holy Scripture unto all succeeding Generations, they did write them in that Language which was then most common in the World; viz. In Greek, that in every Country the Learned who did understand the Greek, might Translate the Holy Scriptures into their own Language, for the better understanding of the People. And without doubt, most of the Saints at Rome, who believed the Gospel, and unto whom Paul did write his Epistle; were not Natives and Italians, but Strangers and Foreigners, either transported by the Conqueror, or choosing to follow him into the great Metropolis of the World. Many Jews were at Rome, when Claudius banished them; and we may believe, more Greeks: The names of those Saints, whom in the 16th Chapter he salutes, show they were not Romans, but only Saints at Rome. And this may be a particular Consideration why Paul did write in Greek to the Saints at Rome, for we may probably suppose more of them understood the Greek Tongue, than the Latin; but as need required, Translations were made. For a long season the Jews were the only chosen People of God thro-out the World to know his will, and they had Moses and the Prophets in their own Tongue; but when the time grew nigh, that the Gentiles also should be received into Covenant with God, be Fellow-heirs with the Jews, and of the same Body, and Partakers of his Promise in Christ by the Gospel; (as the Apostle speaks Epb. 3. 6. to prepare the way for their conversion,) God stirred up the Heart of a Mighty Prince, to bring about that famous Translation of the Old Testament into Greek, by the 70. Interpreters: and other Greek Translations followed: and many more into Latin, both of the Old and New Testament, as Augustine shows, 
a Lib. 2. de Doct. Chris. cap. 11. Qui Script. ex Hebrae● in Graecam vorterunt, numerari possunt, Latines autem Interpretes millo modo, etc.  We may number those who have Translated the Old Testament out of Hebrew into Greek; but the Latin Interpreters are without number.  Phil. 
We do not disapprove Translations in Greek or Latin.  Theoph. 
And why do you stick at other Languages, seeing all was done for the better understanding of the Holy Scriptures by the People in every Country; and you have already heard, that one Language is not more grave and venerable than another, notwithstanding Bellarmine would persuade the contrary. And to balance his great Authority in this case, I will give the ample Testimony of a Pope against him. 
b Bin. Concil. Tom. 7. parte 1. Epist Johan. 8. 247.  We find among the multitude of Epistles written by Pope John the 8th, (as he is called by the Champions of Rome, who exclude Pope Joan out of the Catalogue of Popes) otherwise Pope John the 9th. One Epistle there is written Stento pulchro glorioso Comiti, To a Prince of Moravia, whose Subjects did speak the Sclavonian Tongue; and be commands they should have the Holy Scripture, and their Service in their own Language. 
a Vt in eadem Lin. Christ. Dom. nost. praeconia & opera enarrantur, jubemu neque, etc.  Giving his Reasons the same with us, For we are required, saith he, by Sacred Authority to praise God, not only in three Tongues, but in all, Psal. 117. O praise the Lord all ye heathen, praise him all ye nations. And the Apostles in every Tongue did speak the wonderful works of God, Acts 2. 11. Hence Paul, that celestial Trumpet, proclaims, Let every Tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, Phil. 2. 11. of which Tongues he gives his advice manifestly, 1 Cor. 14. That all should be done to edification. Nor is it any way opposite to Faith or sound Doctrine, if Mass be sung in the Sclavonian Tongue, or the holy Gospel be read, or any other Lessons of the Old or New Testament, being well Translated. For he that made three principal Tongues, the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, hath created likewise all the rest for his own praise and glory. I have set down this ample Testimony at large, because it commands what we practice, and gives the same reasons as we do, to justify it. And we may wonder Bellarmine, and all other Creatures of the Popes of Rome, should not subscribe thereunto. But although I mentioned only Translations of the Bible into Greek and Latin, which you approve; we early read of other Languages whereinto the Holy Scriptures were Translated. The Old Testament by Onkelos, and Jonathan the son of Vzial, was Translated into the Chaldee. 
b Socrates Ecclesiast. Hist. cap. 27.  ulphilas, Bishop of the Goths, found out the Gothic Letters, and translated the Holy Scriptures into that Tongue, that the Barbarians should have the Blessed Word of God. The Septuagint into the Dalmatie, by Jerome. The whole Bible by Chrysostom, into the Armenian Tongue (as Sixtus Senensis 
c Lib. 4. Bibliothecae Sacrae. cum in Cucuzum, etc.  affirms) when he was banished into Cucuzum, a City of Armenia, for the benefit of the People, that they might the better understand the Holy Scriptures, he translated the Old and New Testament into the Armenian Tongue. Bellarmin hath the confidence to doubt, whether Jerome translated the Septuagint into the Dalmatic, the vulgar Tongue of his Country: but 
d Ibid. usque in hanc diem utuntur hujus translationis Lectione, summâ cum utilitate.  Sixtus Senensis tells us, that unto this day they make use of the Translation with great benefit. And 
e Lib. 1. cap. 13. Contra Haereses.  Alphonsus de Castro acknowledgeth it, although a great Adversary against vulgar Translations. Theodoret, The Learned Bishop of Cyrus, 
f Lib. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, de curand. Graecorum affectibus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  triumphs over all the obscure Books of the Heathen Philosophers, in comparison with the Holy Scriptures, because these were universally received among all Nations, and translated into their Language. We, saith he, evidently demonstrate the efficacy and power of Prophetical and Apostolic Doctrine, in that every Nation under the Sun is full of the Divine Oracles. The Hebrew Tongue, (i. e. the Old Testament) being translated not only into the Greek, but into the Roman, Egyptian, Persian, Indian, Armenian, Scythian, Sauromatian Tongues. and to sum up all, into all the Languages which the Nations thro-out the World do speak.  Phil. 
Theodoret here speaks of the Old Testament translated into all Languages, but not of the New.  Theoph. 
If one, we may suppose the other; where the New Testament, being written in Greek, was not understood, doubtless it was translated; seeing Moses, and the Prophets Writings were communicated in all Languages unto the World, principally to give testimony unto the Gospel. But not to heap up Quotations in vain, your own Friends acknowledge it. 
a Lib. 6. Biblioth. Annotat. 152. Ad id quod haeretici contendunt, etc.  Sixtus Senensis gives a reason why such Transtations useful before, should now be prohibited for their inconvenience. When Heretics urge, that the Holy Scriptures should be translated into the Mother Tongue of every Nation, because heretofore they were so, to the great benefit of the Church, I answer, This is a foolish Argument; for many other things were formerly instituted, which afterwards were abrogated for their inconvenience. So pleads Alphonsus de Castro, loco citato.  Phil. 
I have several times intimated this Plea, That the Church, because of inconveniences discovered, hath as great reason now to withhold the Scriptures from the People's reading, and to forbid vulgar Translations, as the former times had to encourage them.  Theoph. 
This is your only Sanctuary to fly unto, in this and many other Controversies between us, That the Wisdom of the Church is the best Judge of times and seasons, and upon due considerations, hath power to alter and change the state of things, even against the Primitive Rule, and the Primitive Practice. And because I will not interrupt our present Discourse, I will reserve this Point unto another season, and now expect you should produce your due Considerations and Reasons against vulgar Translations of the Holy Scriptures, and the People's reading them. I must tell you, they had need be demonstrative, to conclude against the Testimony of the Holy Scripture, of the Holy Fathers, and against the practice of the Church for nine hundred Years, for that Declaration I produced of Pope John the 9th, was in the end of the 9th Century.  Phil. 
When you hear them, you may judge. 
b Lib. 2. De verbo Dei, cap. 15. Vt publicus usus Script. sit in lingua communiss.  Bellarmine shows it necessary unto Church Communion, and Unity thro-out the World, That the public use and reading of the Scripture, should be in the most common Language in the World, that Churches may communicate one with another. For this cause the Holy Scriptures were first written in Greek, which then was the most universal Language: whereunto the Latin Tongue now succeeds, as being understood by the Learned of every Nation. By this means General Councils are held, wherein generally they understand and speak Latin.  Theoph. 
We deny not that the Scripture should be read in Greek or Latin, by those that understand them; mean while, for the benefit of the common People in every Country, they may have the Scripture in their vulgar Tongue, and never obstruct Catholic Communion, or General Councils. And withal, we know the Bishops of the Greek and Latin Churches have held many Councils together, their diversity of Tongues not impeding; where they did not mutually understand one another, they had Interpreters. But I grant, in such General Learned Assemblies, the most common Language is most useful.  Phil. 
But 
a Ibid. populus non intelligeret Proph. & Psal. etc.  Bellarmin reasons farther, That vulgar Translations for the People's reading the Scripture, would not be beneficial to them, because, when translated, the People cannot understand them without Interpreters; for we who understand the Latin, are often forced to consult learned Expositors, saith he.  Theoph. 
This indeed is one Artifice of your Church, whereby she satisfies her Children without the Divine Food of God's Word, and makes them be content without the Holy Scripture in their own Tongue. You persuade the People, they cannot read the Scriptures and understand them, unless they be min●'d and carved to them, by the Nursing Fathers of the Church, their Priests and Pastors, As Mothers chew the Bread and Meat they give to little Children, not commiting to them the whole morsel 
b Matres daunt infant. panem dissect. & praemansum, non integrum & solidum, Lib. 2. de Verb. Dei, cap. 16. . And thus you hold them always in their Infancy, as Children and Babes in Christ, and feed them neither with strong Meat, nor the Milk of God's Word, except they draw it out of the Church's Breasts: for they must not read the Holy Scriptures, where they are plain and easy to be understood, because of some hard places which they may misunderstand. Now we approve, that the Word of God should be rightly divided unto the People by the Ministers of the Gospel; and withal, according to the Tenor of Holy Scriptures, and the Holy Fathers, we exhort the People to search & study the Scriptures themselves, and draw Waters out of the Wells of Salvation: to drink the Waters of Life out of the Fountain, as well as thro' the Conduit of Preaching and Interpretation. But 
c Tom. 5. Homil. 3. in Lazarum. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Chrysostom hath long since answered your Objection, To whom are not all things in the Gospel manifest, saith he? Who, when he hears, That blessed are the meek, the merciful, the pure in heart, and the like, needs an Interpreter; and withal, the signs, and miracles, and the hisiories of Holy Scripture, are they not obvious to every understanding? and therefore it is a mere excuse and cloak of your Idleness, to say, You cannot understand, and therefore you do not read the Scriptures. Dost thou not understand what is written? How canst thou, when thou wilt not look into the Bible? Take the Book of God into your hands, and read, and make use of what thou understandest, and that which is obscure will follow: or if thou canst not find out the meaning of any place by the context, and often reading; repair to one more Learned, ask thy Teacher, communicate with the Guide of thy Soul about such things: show much diligence to find the Truth, and God will not despise thy watchfulness and care; and if man should not interpret right, God himself would revele the Truth. And so he proceeds in the Exhortation, and gives an instance in the Eunuch, who even in his Journey in his Chariot did read the Prophet, and God sent him an Interpreter. And now I pray, observe the difference between the Fathers of the Primitive Church, and of yours. They exhort earnestly all sorts and conditions diligently to read the Scripture, that they may get Wisdom and Understanding; and assure them, That God will Crown their diligence with knowledge. You altogether discourage and forbid the People to read the Scripture, persuading them, that they cannot understand and profit themselves thereby.  Phil. 
Do you believe that all things written in the Gospels are plain and easy, as you bring Chrysostom to affirm? By this you may judge of his Hyperbolical Expressions, which I before observed out of Bellarmin.  Theoph. 
You must not take his Words so strictly, but that for the most part what is written is clear; and when we understand not, he adviseth us to consult. Meanwhile, it is very unjust to withhold such an inestimable Treasure, as is God's Holy Word, from the People, because some passages are obscure and hard to be understood; whereas the far greater part of the Holy Scriptures (being Historical or Moral, or the plain discovery of Divine Mysteries, and fulfilling of Prophecies, matters of Faith, and matters of Practice) is most evident, and condescending to the meanest capacities. If in some difficult and deep places of Holy Scripture the Elephant may swim, i. e. the most Learned may find work enough to fathom them; in other places, the Lamb may wade, i. e. the meanest understanding may apprehend them, as Augustin hath made the Allusion.  Phil. 

a Lib. 2. De verb. Dei, cap. 15. Eo sunt obscuriores quo magis in peregrinis Ling. transferuntur.  Bellarmin shows, How the Scriptures become more obscure by their Translations, one Language being not able to express the Idioms of another.  Theoph. 
This Argument proves more than he or you would have it, even against your Darling vulgar Latin Translation. We easily grant the Originals, as the Fountain, to be most clear unto those who can understand and consult them. Yet Translations made with Learning, and Judgement, and Fidelity, give the full sense of Holy Scriptures, although they may come short of some Elegancies and Proprieties of the Originals. And unto the People who understand the Language of the Translation, the Word of God is certainly more manifest, then if it were locked up in an unknown Tongue, although it be the Original.  Phil. 

a Ibid. Populus non solum non capit fructum, è Script. sed & detrimentum; occasionemsc. errandi tum in doctr. fidei, tum precept. vitae.  Bellarmin in his great Wisdom and Observation looks farther, and discovers, How the People instead of reaping Fruit, usually receive detriment by reading the Scripture, easily taking the occasion of Errors, both in matters of Faith, and Precepts of Life, and moral Conversation. From reading the Holy Scriptures, and not rightly understanding them, spring up Heresies and corruption of men's manners.  Theoph. 

b Praefatione in Epistolam ad Rom.  Chrysostom in his great Piety and Fidelity, assures us the contrary. For (as I have cited him before) upbraiding his hearers with their supine negligence in reading and studying the Holy Scripture, he tells them, Hence arise myriads of evils, even from the ignorance of God's Word. And to cross point-blank Bellarmine's division of Corruptions in Doctrine, and in Manners, from reading the Scripture, he tells them, That by the neglect of reading and understanding the Scripture, have proceeded the pest of many Heresies, the neglect of men's lives, and the corruption of their manners.  Phil. 
We grant, these Evils spring from the ignorance of the Scripture, which are Chrysostoms' own words: 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and that may be from the misunderstanding of them, and therefore we withhold them from the People, lest they should wrest and prevert them.  Theoph. 
But this is the plain way to make them altogether ignorant of the Scripture. And you will find in that place, Chrysostoms' complaint was, Not that they did misinterpret, but that they did neglect to read the Scripture: And he had asked the Question before with indignation, 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  How canst thou understand, who wilt not vouchsafe to look into the Scripture? And in another place, 
e Homil. 8. in Epistolam ad Hebraeos, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  he sadly complains for the growth of the Manichecs Heresy, and lays it to the charge of his Hearers for negleding the Scripture, None of you, saith he, heed the Scripture; for if we did so, we should not only keep ourselves out of the snare of Deceit and Errors, but free others also, and draw them out of the pit wherein they were taken. Observe, I pray, the direct opposition between your Doctors, and the Primitive Fathers. The People's reading of the Scripture in the vulgar Tongue is a great cause of Heresy, and corruption of Manners, say you: The neglect of reading the Scripture is the cause, say they.  Phil. 
'Tis in vain to urge Authority against Experience. 
f Loco cit. supra.  Bellarmin shows, how Sects and Heresies have swarmed, where the vulgar sort read and study the Scriptures: He tells you, how David George knew no other Language but the Dutch, and yet could prove himself out of the Scripture to be the Messiah, and the Son of God. And that Aeneas Silvius, who wrote the Bohemian History, ascribes the gross Errors of the Thaborites and Orebites, and the other Sects among the Bohemians, unto the common People's studying the Scripture: and therefore 
a Lutherus Scrip. Librum Hereticorum vocavit.  Luther, saith he, called the Scripture, The Book of Heretics.  Theoph. 
For David George, that Dutch Monster, although I do not understand the Language, yet I am persuaded his Mother Tongue never promted him to such horrible Blasphemies; neither did the Holy Scripture, which he read in his Dutch, give the occasion; unless by Prophecy and Prohibition. Christ had foretold, how Deceivers should come in his Name, and in his Person, Mark 13. 21. That false Christ's should arise, and men should say, Lo here is Christ, and there is Christ; but go not after them, and believe them not. You see therefore how the Scripture would have forewarned and forearmed him against such a Blasphemous attemt, had he not been given over to reprobate mind. You may as well say, our Saviors converse with Judas made him the Traitor. As for the Bohemian Heretics, (as your Doctors commonly call them) we know the Court of Rome was much perplexed with their clamour and demands, to have the Scripture in the vulgar Tongue, and the Communion in both kinds, etc. and so bitter things are written against them: but when you shall instance in any particulars of their damnable Doctrines (as you suppose) I will undertake to clear the knowledge and reading of the Holy Scripture from the imputation, That they did err, because they knew the Scripture. Ye do therefore greatly err, because ye know not the Scripture, Mark 12. 24. saith our Blessed Saviour to the Sadduces. The Bohemians did therefore err, because they did read and know the Scripture, say you. As for Luther's calling the Scriptures the Book of Heretics, Bellarmine citys not the place; and if they do not belly him (according to their accustomed dealing with him and others) we do blame him, and think not ourselves obliged to justify the fumes of heat and choler, or the infirmities of good Men. But now what will you say, if I turn the Scales, and show you how Heresies and damnable Doctrines have been minted in the Brains of subtle Clerks, and not of the simple Laity, in comparison. Martion and Arrius were Priests. Nestorius, Sergius, Dioscorus, Patriarches and Prelates. Eutyches, an Abbot; and all these Broachers of Heresy. And such Men of Learning and Reputation, are likely to do much more mischief in seducing the People, than some obscure and simple fanatics. And we have cause to fear, that some Mercurial Wits beyond the Seas have laid the Scenes, and come over Incognito in the mist of our Distractions and Troubles, to act their parts, and give Life and Motion to the Phlegmatic Humours of our Separatists; who whilst they dream of Popery, and mightily declaim and fight against it, are led by many of the Principals and Priests of the Church of Rome: upon your account therefore, wise Men should withhold the Scripture rather from the Learned, who are able to do most mischief, then from the multitude. But we affirm, neither one nor the other, That either Clerks or Peasants should be restrained from reading the Bible for their Instruction and Salvation, out of a panic fear they should wrest and pervert them to their own destruction, and others. Every thing that is most useful, may become pernicious. Will you keep no Fire in your Chimney, for fear you should burn your House?  Phil. 

a Loco praedict.  Bellarmine gives another considerable Argument, That in the Holy Scriptures there are many seeming Contradictions, which if the common People in reading should observe, not knowing how to reconcile them, they may be apt to question the Infallibility and Truth of the Scripture.  Theoph. 
These seeming Contradictions do not easily fall within the Observation of the vulgar, but of the Learned; and withal, they ought to read the Holy Scriptures with veneration, and due acknowledgement that they are the infallible Word of God, and dictates of his Holy Spirit, who cannot lie nor contradict himself: and upon this ground, when we apprehend any contradiction in God's Word, we must distrust our own Judgement, and not question the truth of Holy Scripture in any place, but our own apprehension, and apply ourselves to the Learned for reconciliation and better satisfaction. But as to the other part of Bellarmine's Assertion; Is it possible any should conceive that the Holy Word of God should contribute to the corruption of men's manners, and debauch the Lives of such as study it?  Phil. 
Yes, of the unwary Reader. For he instanceth in that passage of the Canticles, Cant. 1. 2. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth. And in another place, Cant. 8. 3. His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me. He instances in David's Adultery, and Thamar's Incest, in the Patriarches Concubines. Now the ruder sort may make ill use of such Expressions and Examples.  Theoph. 
And so may a carnal Priest, Tit. 1. 15. For unto them that are defiled, saith the Apostle, nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience is defiled. But unto the pure, all things are pure. And therefore in such cases, evil unto him that thinks evil. We ought to give unto Spiritual Songs a Spiritual sense, and not a sensual. Psal. 51. David's Adultery is recorded, and his most signal Repentance; the Vices of the Patriarches, together with their Virtues, to show they were Men of like Passions with us, and subject to Infirmities. And the whole design of Scripture, tends unto our Sanctification and holiness of Life, and therefore, one would think, may prove a sufficient Antidote against the Infection of such Examples: and withal, many who never read the Scripture may hear these Stories, and not be so well fortified against them. Bellarmine, I know, made himself mirth with a Story related (as he saith) by a credible Person, 
a Loco cit. supra, audivi ab homine fide digno, etc.  That a Calvinistical Minister of the Church of England, reading the 25th Chapter of Ecclesiasticus, in the vulgar Tongue, where much is spoken of the malice and wickedness of a Woman; one of his hearers, a Woman, risen up and said, Is this the word of God? nay rather of the devil. Whereunto I answer, That perhaps the poor Wretch, before the happy Reformation in England, being kept, more Romano, in great ignorance of the Scriptures, thought it strange to hear such passages against her Sex, and was promted to Blaspheme; whereas, had she been conversant in the Word of God, she would have learned to Bless and nor Blaspheme, to govern her Passion, and rule her Tongue, and to keep silence at the Church, the Apostle not permitting her there to speak.  

c Leo decimus, qui dissolute respondit Cardinali Bembo, Quantum nobis profuit haec fabula Christi, satis est omnibus seculis notum. Job. Balaeus centuriâ 8 va illustrium scriptorum Britanniae, pag 636.  And withal, the Pope, who called the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ a Fable, was the more notorious Blasphemer. As for his taunt of a Calvinistical Minister of the Church of England, he knew well, that our worthy Reformers chose not Calvin for their Master. We are bound to honour him for his great Learning and Labour in the Work of the Lord, but not to subscribe in all Points unto his Doctrine or Discipline: and yet, without doubt, John Calvin compared with Ignatius Loiola, the Father of Bellarmine's Order, was a Saint.  Phil. 
These are Impertinencies to vent your spleen. But what say you to Bellarmine's next Consideration, That if vulgar Translations be permitted, they must be changed every Age with the Language of the Country, and so there would never be an end of Translating; and fit Men to undertake that great Work, may probably be wanting.  Theoph. 
I say that Bellarmine wanted Modesty and Consideration to assert that, which the Experience of all Ages contradicts; namely, That the vulgar Tongue of every Country changeth for the most part in the compass of an hundred Years; whereas his most part must be contracted into some few Words and Phrases, every Age refining, but not changing or destroying the Language of a People.  Phil. 
The last Argument of Bellarmine is this, That the Majesty of Divine Service (and we may add, of the Holy Scripture) requires a more grave and venerable Language, then is the vulgar. And this part of his Argument I have already proposed, but that which follows is considerable. 
d Loco citato praesertim cum in Sacris Mysteriis multa sint quae fecreta esse debeant.  Especially seeing, in Holy Mysteries, many things there are which should be conceled from vulgar apprehensions. And this Pope Gregory the 7th urgeth, as a reason of his denial unto the request of the Duke of Bohemia, that his Subjects might enjoy their public Service 
ᵇ Istudne est verbum Dei? imo potius diaboli.  in the Sclavonian, i. e. the vulgar Tongue, 
a Ex hoc nempe saepe volventibus liquet non immerito sacram script. omnipotenti Deo placuisse, etc. Bin. con. Tom. 7. part. 1. Ep. Greg. l. 7. Epist. 11.  Upon due consideration, saith he, I have observed, that Almighty God was pleased that the Holy Scriptures should be obscure in some places, lest that being evident to all Men, they should be cheap and contemptible.  Theoph. 
This is in truth an occult cause, the usual refuge of such as can give no reason. I may call this the mystery of your Church, if not the mystery of Iniquity: That God designed some things in his Word and in his Service should be conceled from the vulgar, lest they should breed contemt. I had thought the Word of God, the more it was understood and discovered, the more veneration it would procure; and so all the Mysteries of the Gospel. The Jews indeed had their veils and partitions; and into the inner Tabernacle, only the High Priest did enter once every Year, and into the outward Tabernacle the Priests every day, and the People stood in the outward Courts: The Holy Ghost thus signifying, Heb. 9 8. That the way into the Holiest of all was not yet mado manifest, while as the first Tabernacle was yet standing, saith the Apostle. But then speaking of their condition under the Gospel, he adds, Heb. 10. 19, 20. But we, Brethren, have boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus; by a new and living way which he hath consecrated for us. When Christ was Crucified, the veil of the Temple rend from top to bottom, that which was hidden was made manifest, Prophecies fulfilled, and Mysteries revealed: The Gospel is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, the great Light of the World, whose property is to discover, not to conceal; and lest the Majesty of such glorious Truths and Mysteries revealed should dazzle the Eyes of our Understanding, lo, they are clothed in Scripture with humility of speech. And St Augustin 
b Tom. 2. Epistola 3. ad Volusianum. Invital omnes humili sermone, quos non solam manifestâ Pascat, sed & secretâ exerceat veritate.  tells us, The Holy Scriptures invite all to read and understand them, by their great condescension to our capacities; feeding all, not only with manifest Truths, but also with hidden verities. Let us therefore never speak of designed concelements in the Gospel of Christ, wherein the mystery which hath been hid from ages, and from generations, is now made manifest unto the Saints, as St Paul speaks, Coloss. 1. 26. And the same Apostle expressly tells us, 2 Cor. 4. 3, 4. If our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the God of this World hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the Light of the glorious Gospel of Christ. who is the Image of God, should shine unto them. And now, I pray, tell me, Have you found your Arguments unanswerable? never believe the wit of Man can bring Demonstrations against the Truths of God. Your great Champion Bellarmine hath not brought a probable Argument against the People's reading and hearing the Holy Scripture, and Divine Service in the vulgar Tongue, which is at present the Controversy between us.  Phil. 
If yourself be Judge, the Question is determined. But I have not yet done, until I have proposed two serious Considerations more against publishing the Holy Scriptures in the vulgar Tongue, wherewith Peter Suitor, a Carthusian, hath furnished me. The first is this, 
a Mulierculae in Lect. Bibl. versantes curam rei domesticae negligent. Idiotae huic negotio dediti non curabant, etc. De tralat. Bib. c. 22. p. 96.  It will make Laborers, Men and Women, neglect their business, whilst they spend the time in reading the Scripture, which they should employ about their household affairs, and necessary occupations.  Theoph. 
This is a great Crime, tending to the ruin of many Families. But alas! too general experience proves the contrary, that Men and Women are not so easily drawn from the cares and business of the World, to mind Heavenly things; from idle Communications, to the Holy Scriptures. You have heard how Chrysostom complains of the contrary, That such as had Bibles never looked into them, bound them up in costly Covers, and locked them up as hidden Treasures; and they pretended the Encumbrances of the World for their excuse. Our Blessed Saviour, in the Parable of the Sour, showeth, Matth. 13. 22. How the cares of the world, like thorns, choke the good seed of God's word. And your Monks fear is, least reading the Word should hinder the necessary cares and business of Life. It seems of late, the World is much altered for the better, that the hearts of Men should be so endeared unto the Holy Scripture, that if they be not withheld from them, Men would neglect their Callings. But these are fond Imaginations; you know the Holy Scriptures strictly enjoin every one to follow his calling, 1 Cor. 7. 20. Promise the Blessing of God upon the diligent band, Prov. 10. 4. and 12. 24. Command, That such as will not labour, should not eat, 2 Thess. 3. 10. And Solomon, in the last Chapter of his Proverbs, hath set forth a good Housewife so excellently, that it is not possible a wise Woman, minding that Chapter, should neglect her business. But what is your Carthusians second Consideration, against publishing the Holy Scripture in the vulgar Tongue.  Phil. 
It seems you want work, and you do so please yourself with your conceited Answers, that I am unwilling any longer to tickle your humour, and to propose any more Objections.  Theoph. 
It is high time indeed to draw to a conclusion, and therefore I did hasten you to that which you reserved, and 'tis my request it may be your last Proposal.  Phil. 
If you will needs hear it, it is this: If the common People should be permitted constantly to read the Holy Scripture in the vulgar Tongue, 
b Facile plebs nuomu●●bit cum sibi tot onera imponi comperiet praeter Scripturam. Pet. Suitor, ib●●lem.  They would murmur against so many Burdens and Impositions of the Church, which they find not required in the Book of God; and so may become stubborn and disobedient to the commands of the Church.  Theoph. 
This hath hit the nail upon the head. Never any Man spoke more to the purpose in this Point. It is a most ingenious confession, That if the Scripture were permitted to be read by all sorts, farewel to all the intolerable Burdens, and superstitious Impositions of Rome. As he that doth evil hateth the light; so your Church requiring many unwarrantable superstitious things of her Children, wisely keeps them from giving heed unto the Word of God, which soon would discover her Impostures.  Phil. 
I beseech you, Theophilus, do not end a Controversy with a Quarrel. You are my Guest and Friend, and after these heats of Disputation, it will concern me to divert you with such Civilities, and slender Entertainment, as the House at present will afford. I hope you will resolve to tarry some time with me, and give yourself and me the opportunity to debate the other Points in difference between us. You are as welcome as your Heart can wish.   

A SECOND CONFERENCE CONCERNING The half Communion IN THE CHURCH of ROME.  Theoph. 
SIR, I am much obliged to you for your kind and civil Entertainment, and much more for that freedom of Discourse which your great Moderation hath allowed me, when sometimes in the defence of Truth, and through a flaming Zeal that you should recover it, I have neglected the Ceremonies of Friendship, to hold the substance; I have not sought so much to please, as to convince you.  Phil. 
Truth is a Jewel, which all are concerned to purchase and hold fast; but where this Treasure is to be found, is the great Question: I have been diligent in the search, and the Providence of God, as I believe, hath not been wanting in conducting me unto the Catholic Church, the great Repository of Divine Truths.  Theoph. 
Doubtless, the Holy Catholic Church is so, the Truth itself hath promised to be with her unto the end of the World. The Catholic Church will always hold the Catholic Faith; and by this Rule we judge, particular National Churches to be true Members of the Church Catholic, as they hold the Catholic Faith.  Phil. 
I mean the Roman Catholic Church, whose Faith, as Peter's, cannot fail; and which hath always laid a just claim to be the Catholic Church, wherein the Truths of God, and Eternal Life, are conserved as her peculiar Treasure, and none, who do not communicate with her, can share in them.  Theoph. 
That which you call a just claim, will in its due place appear a most intolerable Usurpation; and such as make the Catholic Church and the Roman Church to be reciprocal terms of the same amplitude and extent, have forfeited their Logic and their Reason together. The Church of Rome at best, was a part and Member of the Church Catholic; and now since, thro' her manifold Corruptions, she hath well-nigh forfeited that Interest: lo! with an unparallelled Insolence, she flies at all, and prescribes to the name of Catholic more solicitously, perhaps out of a jealousy the Catholic Church should totally exclude her, and out of a consciousness she hath deserved it. But this digression would usher in a large Controversy, besides our present purpose, and I design first to insist upon the manifold Errors of your Church, one after another, as our occasions will permit; and then, if you please, we will dispute the Point, Whether the Church of Rome can be the only true Catholic Church, which has so many ways departed from the Catholic Doctrine.  Phil. 
Your confidence, Theophilus, is no proof.  Theoph. 
I hope it shall appear to you and to the World, that my Reasons and my Proofs have made me confident. You may remember a second obvious Exception, which I proposed against the practice of the Church of Rome, was her half Communion, in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, Her denying the Cup unto the Laiety. If you please, we will now take it into Consideration.  Phil. 
Most willingly: For I find a great noise and clamour is raised about it, and the Grand Sacrilege of the Church of Rome is proclaimed out of the Pulpit and the Press; and from some appearances of Truth, your severe Imputations and Calumnies pass for currant with the undiscerning multitude.  Theoph. 
These appearances of Truth (as you are pleased to call them) are no less than Demonstrations, carrying so much Light and Evidence in them, that even the undiscerning multitude in reading the Holy Scriptures, are able at first sight to discover the incongruity of your Practice with the Rule; how, teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men, you evidently transgress the commands of God:  Phil. 
This Artifice of yours, and Industry, to court the People into a prejudice against us, is to me a Demonstration, that you put no great confidence in the merits of your Cause. Do not so peremtorily conclude, before you have entered upon the Proof:  Theoph. 
I will prove your giving the Bread in the Holy Communion, and not the Cup unto the People, to be against the Institution of Christ, the end of the Sacrament, the practice of the Apostles and of the Church Catholic, for twelve-hundred Years.  Phil. 
You have proposed a good Method of Discourse, and I desire you would follow it.  Theoph. 
First, our Blessed Saviour, immediately before his Passion, instituted the Sacrament, and gave it to the Disciples present in both kinds, as three Evangelists record, Matth. 26. 26. As they were eating, Jesus took Bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the Disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is my Body. ver. 27. He took the Cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for remission of sins. So we read in Mark 14. 22, 23. and he expressly testifieth of the Cup, That he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. Saint Luke after the same manner. And adds moreover, the command of Christ, This do in remembrance of me, Luke 22. 19  Phil. 
I pray observe how that command is given, only when the Disciples received the Bread, and not when they took the Cup. The Words are these, He took Bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my Body which is given for you, this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the Cup after Supper, saying, This Cup is the New Test ament in my Blood which is shed for you, ver. 20. And 
a Tom. 3. Lib. 4. cap. 25. de Sacramento Eucharist● ut intelligeremus, etc.  Bellarmin observes it as an instance of God's wonderful Providence to make Heretics unexcusable, And that we may understand it was the command of Christ, that the Sacrament should be distributed to all under the species of Bread, but not so under the species of Wine.  Theoph. 
St Luke saith, Likewise also the Cup: Intimating the same Institution for one and for the other.  Phil. 
We are not much concerned in your gloss upon the Text.  Theoph. 
But you are in St Paul's, who declares, That after the same manner he took the Cup when he had supped, saying, This Cup is the New Testament in my Blood, 1 Cor. 11. 25. the very Words of St Luke. And then expressly adds the words of command of our Lord Christ, This do, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. Now what say you to the word of command given by Christ, to do this in remembrance of him, as well when he gave the Cup, as when he distributed the Bread unto the Disciplos?  Phil. 
Bellarmin observes a difference, 
b Ibid. Post panis consecrationem absolute penitur, post calicem, cum conditione.  This do in remembrance of me, is put absolutely even in St Paul's relation, after the Consecration of the Bread; but after the Cup it is repeated with a Condition, ●his do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of one: not intimating, that the Cup must of necessity be given or taken; but if it be given or received, it should be done in remembrance of the Lords Passion.  Theoph. 
These are pitiful shifts; the words rather imply. Christian's should often drink of the Cup in remembrance of their Saviour. And the very next Verse confutes this conceit of Bellarmin, wherein Paul puts the condition, as often, both to eating and drinking, ver. 26. For as often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup, ye do show the Lords death till he come. And withal, while you triumph in St Luke's relation, where the command of, Do this, is expressed only when our Saviour gave the Bread; you do not consider that St Matthew relates our Saviors charge when he gave the Cup, Matth. 26: 27. Drink ye all of this. And St Mark records, Mark 14. 23. He gave the Cup to them, and they all drank of it.  Phil. 
To whom did Christ give this command, Drink ye all of this?  Theoph. 
To the Disciples, who did eat the Passover with him, and supped with him; and after Supper he Instituted the Holy Sacrament, and gave the command to observe it.  Phil. 
But these Disciples were the twelve Apostles, as is manifest from St. Luke's relation, Luke 21. 14. When the hour was come (to keep the Passover) he sat down, and the twelve Apostles with him. Now we grant, that the Apostles, and the Bishops and Priests their Successors, must receive in both kinds, but not the People. Bellarmin reasons thus, 
a Ibid. Dedit selis Apostolis, eo dixit s 〈…〉 Apostolis, bibite ex hoc omnes.  He gave the Cup only to the Apostles, and therefore only to them he said, Drink ye all of this.  Theoph. 
By this subtlety you altogether exclude the People from being concerned at all in Christ's command to receive the Sacrament: for to whom he said, Take, eat, this is my Body, to them he said, Drink ye all of this 〈◊〉 that is, as you say, only to the Apostles. Upon what account therefore do ye administer the Lords Body unto the People?  Phil. 
To this you have 
b Ibid. Etsi non dedit, non prohibuit.  Beauties Answer. Although he did not give the Sacrament unto the People, he did not for bid it should be given to them.  Theoph. 
So neither hath he forbidden the Cup should be given to them. But I pray hear what one of your own Benedictine Abbots, P●s●hafius, in his Book De corpore Christi, c. 15. (as Bellarmin quotes him) saith, as a Comment upon those Words, 
c 〈◊〉 ex hoc omnes, tam ministri quam reliqui credentes.  Drink ye all of this; All, as well Ministers as other Believers, Hear what another of your own side saith upon the Text, and Beauties' Comment 
d Gerardus Lori●hius, de Missa publica proroganda. , There be some false Catholics, that fear not to stop the Reformation of the Church what they can. These spare no Blast he mies, lest that other part of the Sacrament should be restored to the lay People; for, say they, Christ spoke, Drink ye all of this only to the Apostles; but the words of the Mass be these, Take and eat you all of this, Here I would know of them, whether this was spoken only to the Apostles; then must Laymen abstain likewise from the element of Bread, which to say, is an Heresy, yea, a pestilent & detestable Blast hemy. It is therefore consequent, saith he, that both these words (Eat ye, Drink ye) were spoken to the whole Church.  Phil. 
It seems the Doctors vary in their Opinions. But the Truths of God, and the Canons of the Church, depend not upon the humours of Men, and private Interpretation.  Theoph. 
You seem all along to take Bellarmin's Words for Truth, his Answers for Oracles: And do you now except against private Interpretation? But what say you to that Argument wherein 
e Ibid. De hoc argumento Lutherus triumphal.  Bellarmin observes Luther so much to triumph? The Blood of the New Testament was shed for the People, as well as for the Apostles; and our Saviour gives the Cup unto all for whom he shed his Blood; nay, and for that very cause, bids them drink all of it, Matth. 26. 27, 28 For this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is s●ed for many for remission of sins. If Christ's Blood was shed not only for the Apostles, but for many for remission of sins; the Cup ought to be given not only to them, but to many others. Who dares say, saith Luther, [that Christ's Blood was not shed for Laiks? and therefore who should dare to withhold the Blood of the New Testament from them?  Phil. 
As you have taken the Objection out of Bellarmin, so you may his Answer, 
a Ib. Si sanguis Domini dandus esset omnibus pro quibus susus esi, dandus esset Turcis, Judaeis, Ethnicis, etc.  That if the Blood of Christ must be given in the Sacrament to all those for whom it was shed, than it must be given to all men; Turks, and Jews, and Ethnics. For his Blood was shed for all men, as he proves from the Text, 1 John 2. 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.  Theoph. 
This is a Cavil. The Sacraments are the Seals of the Church, und appertain only to Church-Members; and when Turks, and Jews, and Pagans, shall be converted and received into the Church of Christ, they shall partake of her Tresures. I am amazed to see your Learned Champion make such irrational Replies, but his baffled Cause will afford no better.  Phil. 
Do not conclude him foiled, before you have tried his strength.  Theoph. 
It is my design thro-out, to examine his Objections and Answers, and I have hitherto found them so inconsiderable, that I am almost confident for the future.  Phil. 
Keep your confidence to yourself, and produce your Reasons.  Theoph. 
I have one Argument more to urge for the Communion to be received by all in both kinds, from our Saviors words, John 6. 53. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. This Text the Bohemians most insisted upon in the Council of Basil, when their Delegates there desired the Cup might be allowed them. And Aeneas Silvius 
b Hist. Bohem. cap. 35. Literarum doctrinâ & morum praestantiâ juxta clarus.  relates, how Petrus Dresensis, a Schoolmaster in Prague, repaired to the Preacher of St michael's Church, by name Jacoballus, eminent for his Learning and Conversation, ask him, How interpreting the Holy Scripture to the People, he had not so long taken notice of a grand Error which would ruin the Church, in giving the Sacrament only in one kind; whereas our Saviour, in St John, hath said expressly, Unless ye eat the flesh of Christ, and drink his blood, etc. Hereupon, this Learned Preacher searched the Fathers, and finding the giving of the Cup unto the People approved, especially by Dionysius and Cyprian, he earnestly exhorted the People of Prague, no longer to neglect or be content without the Communion of the Cup, without which they could not be saved: and so multitudes were promted to receive in both kinds, and importunate with the Council of Basil to have it allowed. Many Heretics, as he saith, rejoicing that they had found an Article grounded upon Scripture, whereby either the ignorance or impiety of the Church of Rome might be discovered. I have given in this Story, to show of how great consequence, in the judgement of the Bohemians this Text was, to prove even the necessity of receiving the Sacrament in both kinds; and therefore let me hear your Answer.  Phil. 
Bellarmin takes notice of all these Circumstances, and gives three Answers to that Text, Except ye eat the flesh, etc. His first Answer is this, 
a Lib. 4. De Sacram, Euch. c. 25. vim hujus praecepti in re quae sumitur, non in modo sunendi, consistere. Sumuntur tam corpus quam sanguis sub qualibet specie.  The weight of this Precept doth lie in the receiving the flesh and blood of Christ, and not in the manner of receiving it. Now the body and blood of Christ are truly received in either kind; whole Christ being communicated in the bread, as also in the Cup, and therefore the People are not deprived of the virtue of the Sacrament, and shall live by it.  Theoph. 
The Text expressly speaks of drinking his Blood, and that you cannot pretend to do by receiving and eating his Flesh only in the Sacrament, although his Blood and Soul be there also (according to your Opinion) by concomitancy. Of which we shall say more hereafter.  Phil. 
If you stand so much upon the letter of the Text, which seems to imply the receiving of Christ's Flesh and Blood distinctly, one by eating, and the other by drinking, than we answer ou another way. That in Holy Scripture many times 
b In Script, conjunctio, &, accipitur pro disjunctiva.  the copulative is put for a disjunctive; as when Peter said to the impotent Man at Solomon's Porch, Acts 3. 6. Silver and Gold have I none; the meaning is, he had neither Silver nor Gold, for either would have sufficed for an Alms. And if the Text be so Interpreted, it will not hurt us, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, or drink his blood, etc.  Theoph. 
This is to make of God's Word a Nose of Wax; to put the Holy Scripture out of Joint, to help a broken Cause. This way would serve a Jesuit in another case of Conscience. Is any one scrupulous of rebelling against his Prince? The Father will satisfy him with that of Solomon, Fear God, or honour the King: if you do one, you may omit the other. But what God hath joined, let not Man put asunder, saith our Blessed Saviour. Never turn a Copulative into a Disjunctive.  Phil. 
Well, If these two Answers do not please, Bellarmin will sit you with a third. There are many Precepts in Holy Scripture, which are given to all, and yet are designed to be observed only by some; as that Blessing upon Mankind at first, Increase and multiply, and yet all Men are not obliged to Marry and get Children. And so this saying of our Saviour, If ye eat not the flesh of the Son of Man, etc. it is spoken to the Church Universal, and yet if observed by some, it sufficeth. The Priest taking the Sacrament in both kinds, shall convey Life thro' Christ unto his whole Church.  Theoph. 
This Answer is not unlike the two former, if twisted together all are not worth a rush: they only publish to the World the Objection is unanswerable, and so rather than they would be silent, they would put their cyphers together, without one tittle of sense and reason to make them significant.  Phil. 
This is a quick way to answer an Argument or Reply, by saying it is insignificant, and so dismiss it.  Theoph. 
If I omit any thing that is material, I desire no favour: I know I shall hear of it with both Ears, for those of your side are used to give no Quarter. Mean while I will follow my intended course, and show, in the next place, how your half Communion is against the end of Christ's Instituting the Sacrament.  Phil. 
Christ instituted these Holy Mysteries to confer Grace to the worthy Receivers; to feed them with the Celestial Food of his precious Body and Blood, to convey unto their Soul's remission of sins. So much the words of Institution imply, Take, eat, This is my Body which is given for you; and drink ye all of this, for this is my Blood of the New Testament which was shed for many for remission of sins. Now all this is communicated as well under one kind, as under both: for whole Christ, his Body, and Blood, and his Divinity, is exhibited under the Species of Bread. For Christ expressly saith, It is my Body: and if so, it is his Blood, and Life, and Divine Nature also. For Christ now liveth for ever, and the Union between his Soul and Body is indissoluble; wheresoever one is, the other must be, by a necessary concomitancy. And then for the Godhead of Christ, since the great Mystery of his Incarnation, that can never be separated from the humane Soul and Body, which he assumed into one Person and subsistence with Himself. So the Council of Trent hath determined. 
a Sess. 13 c. 3. Statim post Consecrationem verum Domini nostri corpus, verumque sang. una cum Divinit. existere sub specie panis & vini, etc.  Immediately after the Consecration, the very Body and Blood of our Lord, do exist under the Species of Bread and wine, together with his Soul and Divinity. The Body indeed subsists under the Species of Bread, and the Blood under the Species of Wine, by virtue of the words of Consecration; but by virtue of a Natural Connexion, whereby the parts of Christ's humane Nature are, since his Resurrection, for ever inseparably united, under the Species of Bread, there is likewise the Blood of Christ, and under the Species of Wine, his Body, and his Soul under both; as also his Divinity, by reason of the Hypostatical Union. And therefore the Council concludes, 
b Veriss. est, tantundem sub alterutra specie atque sub utraque contineri, totus & integer Christus.  That as much is contained under either Species, as under both; even whole Christ entirely.  Theoph. 
This is a new Model of Divinity. which was about two hundred Years in fashioning and preparing, by their sworn Servants, the Schoolmen, for the Fathers of Trent to make use of, to underprop the declining State of the Church of Rome. But I pray tell me, Why did our Blessed Saviour so distinctly say of the Bread, This is my Body; and of the Cup, This is my Blood, etc. if in either kind, both Body and Blood are included and received.  Phil. 
The Council, as you have heard before, answers this exactly, 
a Ibid. Corpus existit sub specie panis, & sang. sub specie vini, vi verborum, a 〈…〉 vi naturalis connexionis & concomitantiae, etc.  By the words of Consecration, the Bread is changed only into the Body of Christ, and so the Wine into his Blood; but then by a natural connexion and concomitancy, each kind includes the other. The Body, and Blood, and Soul, and God head of Christ, are inseparable.  Theoph. 
But why did Christ Institute the Sacrament in both kind, if to receive in one kind be as beneficial to the Soul?  Phil. 
The Essence of the Sacrament, 
b Lib. 4. de Euchar. c. 22. Species panis & vini n●n tam essentiales quam integrals parts sunt.  as Bellarmin shows, is communicated in one kind, to wit, the Body and Blood of Christ: but as to the integrity, both are necessary.  Theoph. 
You shall never find a School-man, without a nice Distinction to salve the matter. However, hereby you acknowledge the Sacrament in one kind to be maimed and imperfect, wanting one of the integral parts. But I will not entangle the Discourse with such Niceties: You know our Blessed Saviour expresseth one end of the Sacrament, That in remembrance of him it should be given and received. And Paul shows, in what regard chief Christ is commemorated in the Sacrament, as he was Crucified, For as often as ye eat this Bread, and drink this Cup, ye show the Lords death till he come, 1 Cor. 11. 26. Now you all grant, that the representation of Christ's death is made by both kinds in the Sacrament. The Bread and Wine apart, represents Christ Blood separated from his Body. Breaking of Bread signifies, how Christ's Body was wounded, and bruised, and broken. So Paul renders the words of Christ's Institution, 1 Cor. 11. 24. This is my Body which is broken for you, and therefore the Sacrament should be given in both kinds, for a sensible representation of Christ's death.  Phil. 
The Church holds the commemoration of Christ's death exactly in the Sacrifice of the Mass; and this belongs only to the Priest, who of necessity must consecrate Bread and Wine, and receive both; for this very reason, That he may so represent Christ's death, and offer up his Body and Blood in Sacrifice; his Body as crucified, and his Blood shed. So a great Doctor of our Church, 
c Lib. 6. Advers. haereses. Mem. Dominicae mortis agit Sacerdes in altari, non pop. quaprop. Sacerd. quoties celebrat non consecrat unam si eciem sine alterâ, etc.  Alphonsus de Casiro, The Priest commemorates Christ death upon the Altar, and not the People receiving the Sacrament. And therefore, saith he, the Priest of necessity must consecrate both kinds, and receive them; because, although Christ is wholly contained in one kind, yet by one he is not signified and represented: for the Species of Bread only signifies and represents his Body; and that of Wine, his Blood, etc.  Theoph. 
We will not examine this new Doctrine of Alphonsus and the Schools, touching whole Christ in each Species, etc. but we will take his Concession; That one kind doth not signify or represent whole Christ, and his Death and Passion; and therefore such as are bound to remember and show the death of Christ, his Sacrifice upon the Cross, and the Work of our redemption by his Blood shedding, they must of necessity receive the Sacrament in both kinds apart.  Phil. 
What will you conclude thence? seeing he hath told you that the Priest is concerned, and not the People, to hold the remembrance of Christ's death in the Sacrament, which he daily performs in the Office of the Mass.  Theoph. 
But what care we what Alphonsus hath told us, or any of your New Doctors, seeing St Paul affirms the contrary? For writing to all the Saints of the Church of Corinth, he expressly tells them, As oft as ye eat this Bread, and drink this Cup, ye show the Lords death till he come. And doubtless, as all Christians are concerned to keep a thankful remembrance of Christ, and of his Passion, so we must do it as he hath appointed, by receiving the Sacrament in both kinds: for only so as you have heard, his Death and Bloodshedding is represented to the Life. The Elements apart, showing how his Blood was separated from his Body; breaking of Bread, showing how his Body was bruised and broken. In this respect we may believe St Paul said to the Galathians, That even before their eyes, Jesus Christ had been evidently set forth crucified among them, Gal. 3. 1.  Phil. 
This suits Bellarmine's Observation well, that the People may see Christ's Death represented in both kinds upon the Altar, and one separate from the other, and so hold the commemoration of his Passion, although they do not communicate in both kinds: and he observes, the Eye is the quicker sense to affect and raise our Meditation, rather than the Touch or Taste.  Theoph. 
Notwithstanding the subtle Observation of your Doctors, you shall give us leave to follow Christ's direction, to receive the Sacraments in both kinds in remembrance of him: and we will believe the Apostle, That by eating this Bread, and drinking this Cup, we show the Lords death; and not by seeing the Wafers, and the Cup upon the Altar. And withal, the Sacrament is called the Lords Supper, wherein he Feasts our Souls with his Flesh, that is Meat indeed; and with his Blood, which is Drink indeed. Now to complete a Feast, there must be Meat and Drink, Esculenta & Poculenta. And one of your Doctors saith, 
a Franciscus à Victoria, de Euch. cue, 87. Non est perfecta refectio sub unica specie.  Under one kind of the Sacrament, is no perfect refection.  Phil. 
These things hold in Natural Food and Refections, but not in Spiritual. Hunger and thirst in Grace, are not distinct Appetites, but have the same Objects, as, Blessed are they which do bunger and thirst after righteousness, Matth. 5. 6. And we read, how our Blessed Saviour entertained the multitudes in the Wilderness with the Loaves, without Wine or Water.  Theoph. 
Those are pretty subtleties for Jesuits; but our Blessed Saviour Instituting his Sacraments for all Believers, as well Idiots as Learned, designed to confirm their Faith in Spiritual Truths by sensible Signs, and therefore chose those two Elements of Bread and Wine, to represent unto us, that as these naturally nourish the Body, so should his Body and Blood exhibited in the Sacrament, in a Spiritual manner nourish the Soul. And therefore you would do well to leave the Signs and the Sacrament complete, and not deprive your ignorant People of such Helps & Representations. Your own Schoolmen acknowledge the Sacrament to be maimed and imperfect, as to the Sacramental part, and the signification without both kinds. 
a Part. 3. qu. 80. Art. 12. Exparte Sacramenti convenit quod utrum que sumi 〈…〉 in utroque perfectio, etc. Nullo modo debet corpus sumi sine sane.  Tho. Aquinus determines, That in regard to the Sacrament, both kinds are necessary; for the perfection of the Sacrament consists in both, and therefore by no means the Priest that consecrates, must receive the Body of Christ without the Blood. 
b Exparte sumentium req. summa rea. & cautela.  But in regard to the Receivers, reverence and caution must be had, lest any undecencies should happen, whereof the greatest danger is in receiving the Cup, lest the Wine be spilt. And so after the like sort Bonaventure.  Phil. 

c Ib. ad 3. In persona omnium sang ossert & sumit.  Aquinas there tells you, how the Priest offers and takes the Cup in the behalf of the People. And so in the Priests communicating the Sacrament retains its perfection; in the People's communicating in one kind, it retains its reverence and due caution, lest any thing should happen irreverently.  Theoph. 
We shall hereafter consider your great Reasons why you withhold the Cup from the Laity. At present I will follow my design, and show that the practice both of the Apostles and of the Church, for twelve hundred Years, was to administer the Sacrament unto the People in both kinds, as our Saviour gave the Cup unto the Apostles. St Mark expressly saith, They all drank of it, Mark 14. 23. so they administered the Cup unto the Saints.  Phil. 
You have been already showed that they received the Sacrament at our Saviors hands, as Apostles and Priests, and so they had the Cup.  Theoph. 
Not so, for they Communicated then as Receivers, and as the common People; for our Blessed Saviour was the Priest in that Administration. This some of your own Doctors affirm: for as when our Blessed Saviour was Baptised by John, he condescended to represent the Person of a Disciple, and John was the Master in that Scene: so when he gave the Sacrament to his Disciples, he was the Priest, and they as the People receiving in both kinds for a standing Rule and Example unto all Posterity.  Phil. 

a Vivendum Legibus non exemplis  We must live by Laws, and not by Example, as the Lawyers wisely determine in all Cases.  Theoph. 
I had thought our Blessed Saviors Example had been a Law and Rule to Christians, in such things as fall within the compass of their imitation. Learn of me, saith our Blessed Saviour, for I am meek and lowly of heart. But moreover, the Apostles then receiving the Sacrament in both kinds, had express command, hoc facite; so to give the Sacrament unto others, as he had done to them.  Phil. 
When you Comment upon a Text, it shall not fail to speak your sense and do your work: But what will you say if our Saviour himself administered the Sacrament in one kind. I hope this Practice and Example will satisfy you.  Theoph. 
Let me hear the Instance, and I will give my Answer.  Phil. 
In Emaus he gave the Sacrament unto those two Disciples, with whom he communed in the way. And St Luke observes, Immediately their eyes were opened, and they knew him, Luke 24. 31. And it follows in that Chapter, ver. 35. He was known of them in breaking of Bread. This wonderful effect shows it was the Sacrament; and yet we read only of one kind which he consecrated and gave unto them. The Text saith, v. 30. He took Bread, and blessed it, and broke and gave unto them; the Ceremonies exactly which our Saviour used in his consecration of the Sacrament.  Theoph. 
This will not prove what you desire, That our Saviour now gave the Sacrament to these two Disciples; for these Circumstances of giving Thanks, or Blessing, or breaking of Bread, were usual at ordinary Meals: whereof we have a full proof in the Acts of the Apostles. We read there, cap. 27. how in a great Tempest the Soldiers, and Marirers, and Prisoners, in all 276 Souls in the Ship, had fasted fourteen days (we may suppose, so long they had made no setting Meals), and Paul, being assured from God of all their safety, he exhorted them to be comforted, and to take some meat for their health sake: and when he had thus spoken, he took Bread and gave thanks to God, and when he had broken it, he began to eat, ver. 35. Here you have the same Ceremonies of taking of Bread and blessing and breaking, and yet doubtless it was a common refection: sure the Apostle did not give the Sacrament to so many Infidels in the thip.  Phil. 
The Case is not the same, neither the Expressions. For in Luke the word is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, He blessed, the same which our Saviour used in the Institution of the Sacrament. But in your Instance it is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, He gave thanks: only said Grace before a Meal.  Theoph. 
Your Criticisin will help you little. You know the Sacrament is called the Eucharist, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the very word which Paul used.  Phil. 
But those two at Emaus were Disciples, and such a notable Miracle ensuing, that their eyes were open to know Christ at that instant in breaking of Bread, this proves it was the Sacrament they received.  Theoph. 
That was an accidental Dispensation. Our Blessed Saviour, upon their importunity, turned with them into the Inn, sat down to eat, and immediately before he vanished out of their sight, he was pleased to discover himself unto them.  Phil. 

a L 3. de cons. Evangelist. c. 15. Facta est permissio usque ad Sacramentum panis, ut unitate corp. ejus participatâ removeri intellig. impedimentum inimici, ut Christus possit agnosci.  St Augustin affirms it was the Sacrament, and tells us, That thro' the power of the devil their eyes were holden not to know Christ, who was pleased to permit it until they came to the Sacrament of Bread, that we should understand all impediments of the enemy against knowing of Christ shall be removed, when we are united to his Body.  Theoph. 
In this Passage Augustin doth not clearly assert what you would have him, but according to his usual Expressions elsewhere, calling any mystical thing by the name of Sacrament: he calls this, Sacramentum panis, because it had a mystical signification, being accompanied with that notable Circumstance of the Disciples eyes being opened to know him: And the allegorical or mystical signification is this, That such as in the Church receive the Sacrament devoutly, shall have their understandings opened to know the Lord Christ more perfectly. But I can demonstrate to the Doctors of your Church, from their own Principles, That our Blessed Saviour did not give the Sacrament to his two Disciples at Emaus, because he did not pronounce those words which make the Sacrament, and change the Bread into his Body, viz. This is my Body, which you maintain to be the essential words of Consecration. The others, of blessing and breaking Bread, and giving to them, being but circumstances in comparison. Again, he did not consecrate in both kinds, which your Doctors also account necessary to the Sacrament, That the Priest should consecrate Bread and Wine, and receive them.  Phil. 
A negative Argument out of Scripture holds not good, because it is not expressed in the Relation that our Saviour said, This is my Body, and that our Saviour did consecrate the Cup, as well as bless the Bread, Because these things are not expressed, you cannot therefore conclude they were not done.  Theoph. 
Now I have brought you where I desired: you say a negative Argument out of Scripture is not of force. If I should grant it was the Sacrament which our Saviour gave to the Disciples at Emaus, How would you prove they received it only in one kind, the Bread which he gave them? How will you prove he did not bless and give the Cup to them? Only by your negative Argument, because the Holy Scriptures speak nothing of it: which way soever you turn the wind, this Knot will hold you fast. By this way which you have first showed, we answer several Arguments of your Doctors out of Scripture; and in many places of Scripture, say they, the Sacrament is described by this character of breaking Bread; as in this passage of St Luke, and some others in the Acts of the Apostles. Now from this denomination they would infer, that they received the Sacrament in one kind. We say no, but that one part is put for the whole, by the Figure Synecdoche, breaking of Bread is expressed, and drinking of the Cup is implied and understood.  Phil. 
By such Figures, when it shall serve your turn, you may make a strange supplement to the Holy Scriptures; if they do not express what you would have them, it shall be understood however.  Theoph. 
You showed the way. Neither had I entered upon this digression, but that you excepted against a negative Argument out of Scripture, when I did prove that Christ gave not the Sacrament unto the two Disciples, because he did not say, This is my Body, and did not bless the Cup; both which, your Doctors account necessary to the Sacrament. Your answer was, That we must not conclude these things were omitted by our Saviour, although they are not recorded by the Evangelist: but whatever you think of it, we are sure many of your own Doctors are of our Opinion, That breaking of Bread, etc. at Emaus, was no Sacramental action, but blessing and giving common Bread at that Meat to the Disciples. So Lyra upon the place, 
a Sicut consueverat ante passionem.  He blessed the Meat before they eat, as be usually did before he suffered. Dionysius Carthusianus, 
b Accepit panem & benedixit, nan autem in corpus conv. sicut in coenâ, etc.  He to●k Bread and blessed it, and gave to them; but he did not change it into his Body, as in the Lord's Supper, but after the custom of blessing the Meat: instructing us before Meals to say Grace. So 
c Pro more sibi familiari, etc.  Jansenius Concord. c. 146. He blessed the Bread after his usual manner. And afterwards he tells us, That some were of the opinion, that our Saviour, under the Species of Bread, did give unto them his Body; 
d Ea scent. non est certa, nec multum verisimilis.  but that Opinion is not certain, nor very probable.  Phil. 
We are not concerned in the Opinion of some Doctors; St Augustin's Testimony will outweigh them all.  Theoph. 
You have heard, That St Augustin came not home to your purpose; he speaks mystically, and by his side you would walk in a mist. But I proceed to show the practice of the Church in the Apostles time. It is manifest, That the Saints at Corinth received in both kinds, according to St Paul's direction, 1 Cor. 11. 23. He first declares, Christ's Institution of the Sacrament in both kinds; and adds, his command even for the Cup (which you observed was not in St Luke's relation) Do this as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. St Paul after gives a general Rule for all Christians, Let a Man examine himself, and so let him eat of the Bread and drink of the Cup, ver. 28. And afterwards declares the danger of unworthy receiving, But he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, ver. 29. You see there is no evasion, he speaks to all the Saints, and enjoins eating and drinking together: And who are you, that you should separate them?  Phil. 

d Lib. 4. de Eucha. c. 25. Fcclesia Cor. utobatur utrâque speie.  Bellarmin doth acknowledge, that the Church of Corinth did receive the Sacrament in both kinds; because Paul, either from Christ's Example, or for some other Reasons, had declared it lawful for them so to do, but he never taught them it was necessary: Neither did he urge the Precept of Christ, which you so much insist upon, Drink you all of this.  Theoph. 
But he added another Precept to the Cup, which St Luke omitted, This do as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me. But you are put to this pitiful shift, when we prove the practice of the Apostles, and of the primitive Times, to give the Cup in the Sacrament to the People, to answer, That it is lawful and may be allowed, but it is not necessary to give the Cup: whereas our Lord Christ his Example in the first Institution of the Sacrament, delivering it in both kinds, his command, Drink ye all of this, St Paul's relation of another Precept, This do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me, And the signification of Christ's death in the Sacrament, whereunto you confess both kinds are necessary to be received asunder: all these do imply a necessity and command in the judgement of all who are not blinded with prejudice and interest. However, my business at present is to show the practice of the Church in the Apostles time, to receive the Sacrament in both kinds; and Bellarmin acknowledgeth it so in the Church of Corinth, and 
a Annotatione 27. in 6. Johannis. Antiqua consuetudo tempore Apostolorum sub utraque spei, etc. in hac assertione nulla controversia.  Cardinal Tolet in other Churches. It was the ancient custom in the Apostles days, in the Church, to take the Communion in both kinds. And he adds, in this Assertion there is no Controversy, and his Proofs for it are many.  Phil. 
But Tolet's 
b Non minus antiqua Ecclesiae consuetudo sub unâ solâ specie, modo sub una, modo sub utraque.  second Assertion comes home to our purpose, It was no less ancient custom of the Church to communicate under one kind, even in the Apostles time; sometimes under one, and sometimes under both, and his proofs you will find very considerable.  Theoph. 
We value not his confident Assertion, wherein he exceeds all his Fellows: But what are his Proofs?  Phil. 
He shows how our Saviour himself gave the Sacrament in one kind, unto the two Disciples at Emaus.  Theoph. 
A baffled proof, as I believe yourself will acknowledge seeing many of your own party have done so.  Phil. 
But his second Argument is very considerable out of the Acts of the Apostles, cap. 2. ver. 42 They continued stedfasily in the Apostles Doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of Bread, and in Prayer. Here saith he, by breaking of Bread is meant receiving the Sacrament, 
a Nemo ratione utens negare potest, panem hoc loco esse Eucharistiam, etc.  every one that hath reason must acknowledge it; 
b Si cibus esset communis non jungeretur medio loco cum doctrina & oratione.  otherwise, had it been common bread and refection, it would not have been put between the Apostles Doctrine and Prayer.  Theoph. 
Although I do not fear the Cardinal's censure, if I should deny it, neither can he or any other make it more than probable, that in that place by breaking of Bread is understood a Sacramental Action; yet because it is probable both in this Text, and in the 20th Chapter of the Acts, ver. 7. Upon the first day of the week, when the Disciples came together to break Bread, Paul preached. Therefore some of our Divines do allow your Interpretation: yet your Doctor's conclusion will not hold, That they received the Sacrament only in one kind, although the Bread only is expressed, for here a part is put for the whole action of Communicating: for mark you, breaking of Bread was the Apostles or Priests act, so to distribute it to the People: and many other actions must concur to make up the Sacrament, as Blessing, and Consecrating, and the like; and you sinned these are not expressed, but implied: and so also must consecrating the Cup be implied also; for otherwise, if the Apostles did Consecrate the Bread and not the Cup, the Sacrament was null by the acknowledgement of your own Doctors. They conclude, the Consecration of both kinds necessary, insomuch that 
c Part. 3. q. 74. art. 1. ad 2. Nec propter desectum alterius est unum sine altere consecrandum.  Aquinas holds, If one part of the Sacrament cannot be procured (suppose it Wine) the other part ought not to be Consecrated. And he gives the reason, Because the Sacrament would be imperfect. And 
d Dispui. 123. c. 30. Necessarium jure divinout ex disp. Pentif. etc.  Vasquez holds it necessary, jure divino, so that by the Pope's Dispensation the Sacrament cannot be consecrated in one kind, both in respect of the Sacrifice and the Sacrament. We conclude therefore, that the Apostles, who did break Bread in these Texts to the People, did before Bless and Consecrate it, and after Consecrate the Cup; and you cannot say they did not, although these things are not expressed.  Phil. 
I grant all this: But how will you prove they gave the Cup to the People.  Theoph. 
It is your part to show they did not, otherwise you do not make good that the Sacrament was given only in one kind: Now all your proof is, because the Cup is not expressed, as the breaking of Bread is. And you know, that it is a weak negative Argument, and if allowed, it would overthrow your first Postulatum, that by breaking of Bread is understood the Sacrament; seeing many necessary actions to complete a Sacrament, as you have heard, are not expressed but only implied: although it is not expressed, yet you take it for granted, That when the Bread was broken, it was blessed and distributed, and that the Cup likewise was consecrated: And why will you not give me leave to take it likewise for granted, that the Cup was given to them, although it be not expressed? Doth the Expression of breaking the Bread exclude giving the Cup?  Phil. 
No: but being expressed, and the other not, we may suppose the one without the other.  Theoph. 
What you may suppose I know not; but this I am sure, neither the Cardinal nor you can prove any thing against us out of these Texts. And before I leave this passage, I cannot but observe a contradiction of your practice unto this Expression of breaking of Bread, which you make very much of, as the denomination of the whole Sacramental Action (and in some places we do not gainsay it) and yet when you administer the Sacrament, you do not break Bread; you omit that significant Action which is expressed in our Blessed Saviors Institution, and you give unto the People Wafers whole and single, which cannot represent Christ's Body bruised and broken, or the People's Communion of the same Loaf, which St Paul insists upon, 1 Cor. 10. 17. We being many, are one Bread and one Body, for we all are partakers of that one Bread. If you had not studied to go against Christ's Institution, you could not have omitted breaking of Bread, and giving the Cup unto the People in the Sacrament.  Phil. 
You have an Art to amplify and aggravate, and to lay heavy things to our charge.  Theoph. 
I am solicirous for your sake, that you may recover out of the snare, and be timely sensible of your Error. Tolet hath other Arguments as weak as Water, to make good his impudent Assertion, That in the Apostolic and Primitive Times, the Church administered the Sacrament indifferently either in one or both kinds, as she thought fit. I shall meet with them in due place. For I now proceed, as I proposed, to show the practice of the Church for many Ages, both from the testimony of the Fathers, and the Learned in every Age; and from the acknowledgement of your own Doctors, to give the Communion in both kinds unto the People, according to the Institution of Christ, and the Tradition of the Apostles.  Phil. 
You love to take that for granted, which is the Question: Whether Christ's Institution and Apostolical Tradition be on your side? For although our Saviour gave the Sacrament in both kinds to the Apostles, it doth not appear he appointed them to administer it so unto the People, as a rule unto succeeding Generations.  Theoph. 
The practice of the Church, will best interpret the commands of Christ, and duty of Christians: If the Church Catholic for 1200 Years gave the Communion in both kinds, thereby they declare the mind of Christ, and our obligation to follow them.  Phil. 
We reverence the Authority of the Church, and desire nothing more than your submission thereunto.  Theoph. 
I speak of Church Practice, and you divert unto Church Authority: As though the Holy Fathers, who gave the Sacrament in both kinds unto their Congregations, did therein follow the Canons of the Church, and not rather the Institutions and Command of Christ.  Phil. 
The Essential parts of the Sacrament we remit to Christ and his Institution, but do believe the Church always had power to appoint and alter Circumstances.  Theoph. 
Where Christ hath left them undetermined. But moreover, we account the Elements of Bread and Wine, to be material and substantial parts of the Sacrament, Instituted by Christ, and therefore not to be accounted Circumstances, and left to the determination of the Church. But I perceive, while you contend so much for the Authority of the Church, you are not willing in this point to hear the constant Testimony of the Church.  Phil. 
Not so; but we most cordially embrace it, knowing that we derive full confirmation of our practice in one kind (whatsoever you think of it) from the usage and testimony of the Primitive Times.  Theoph. 
I will first show you what they say for us, and then do you produce your Evidences for yourselves. In the first Century, we read divers Liturgies ascribed to some of the Apostles and Evangelists. The Liturgy of St James, of St Peter, of St Mark; in them we find the Priests and Deacons, and all the People, give Thanks to God and the Lord Jesus Christ, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That he hath vouchsafed unto them, the favour to partake of his Body and Blood. We read, they speak of the Mysteries altogether in the plural, Partaking of the pure Celestial lifegiving and dreadful Mysieries. We read, how the Deacons after Consecration take the Patin and the Chalice, to distribute the Bread and Wine unto the People.  Phil. 
You account those Liturgies spurious, and not made by the Apostles; and you take them for proofs against us.  Theoph. 
'Tis truth, we cannot believe they were compiled by the Apostles, for than it would have been presumption for after Ages not to conform to them, but unto Liturgies of their own framing. Your Ordo Romanus should have been exactly conform unto Peter's Liturgy. However, they were set forth not many Ages after, and pretend to the Apostolical Times and Practice; and where they agree, give some light to Posterity of their Customs: and against you their Testimony holds good, because you account them Legitimate.  Phil. 
It is sport for Children to fight with wooden Daggers.  Theoph. 
They are sharp enough to foil your pretensions unto Antiquity. But this is but fencing about, I will close with you instantly, and produce unquestionable Testimonies of the Sacrament given unto the People in both kinds. 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Ignatius, St john's Disciple, in his Epistle to the Phila● delphians, tells us, It is one and the same Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the same Blood which was shed for us. One Bread broken for all, and one Cup distributed to the whole Congregation. 
a Apol 2. prope finem. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Justin Martyr, in the next Century, giving account of the Rites of their Christian Service and Communion, he tells the Heathen Emperors, to whom he makes his Apology for Christians, The Precedent of the Assembly, or Priest, giving thanks, and all the People congratulating; they who are called Deacons, give to everyone present to partake of the Bread and Wine, with Water blessed; and carry those Elements abroad to such as are not present. And this nourishment is called the Eucharist. In the end of the same Century, 
b 2º Lib. ad Vxorem, c. 4. De cibo & poculo invadere, etc.  Tertullian exhorting his Wife after his death, if at all, only to marry in the Lord, i. e. a Christian, Otherwise, saith he, how will thy Husband, if a Heathen, suffer thee to go to that Feast which is so much defamed, to take the Bread and the Cup. And afterwards, 
c Libro de lapsis, De cujus manu desiderabit; de cujus peculo particip.  Of whose hand wilt thou receive the Bread, of whose Cup wilt thou drink. Now Pamelius and de la Cerda, in their Notes upon Tertullian, acknowledge both these places to be spoken of the Eucharist; and both kinds are expressly mentioned and received. 
d Praesente ac teste meipso.  Cyprian follows his Master Tertullian, and hath many passages to our purpose. He gives an account of a strange accident, whereof he was an Eye-witness, That a young Maid being at the Sacrament, when the Deacon brought the Cup to her, she turned away her face; shutting her mouth, and refusing to drink: 
e Reluctanti licet de Sacramento Calicis infudit. Sequitur singultu & vomitus, etc.  but the Deacon forced her to take down some of the Wine, and presently she vomited. The Holy Eucharist could not stay in her Mouth and Stomach which was defiled. For we read before, That when she was an Infant, the Heathen took her from her Mother, and by force put into her mouth 
f Panem mero mixtum de immolatione perceptum.  Bread mingled with Wine, taken from the Idol Sacrifice. And because of this Pollution; thro' a Divine dispensation in these severe Times, followed that abhorrency of the Sacrament. Now here is mention made of the Sacramental Cup, but not of Bread, delivered to the Damsel, though unwilling. And from this, and such like places, we may as well prove they administered the Cup without the Bread, as they from other places conclude the Bread was given without the Cup. Another notable Passage we have 
g Epistola 54. Cornelio papae fratri, ques hertamur ad praelium non inermes, etc.  in his Epistle to Cornelius the Pope, his Brother in the Lord: He writes his mind to him, That in those difficult times of Persecution, it was expedient to reconcile Penitents lapsed, the sooner to Church Communion, and with more Indulgence: That by the Blood of Christ received in the Sacrament, they may be fortified against assaults, and be encouraged to shed their Blood for the Testimony of the Gospel. And immediately after he saith, 
h Quo modo prevocamus eos in confess nominis sang. suum effundere, etc.  How shall we exhort them to shed their Blood in the Confession of his Name, if we deny them to partake of his Blood. He adds immediately after, 
a Quomodo ad Martyrii poculum idences facimus, si non eos prius ad bib. in Ecclesia pocul Domini jure communicationis admittimus.  How shall we fit them to drink the Cup of Martyrdom, if we do not before admit them to take the Cup of the Lord in the Church, by right of Communication. Observe the right of Communicating.  Phil. 

b Lib. 4. de Euch. c. 26. Jus Laic●r. ad communicandum à Sacerdot. etc.  Bellarmin shows, how this Epistle of Cyprian, is a full confutation of your Opinion, That the Church cannot withhold part of the Sacrament from the People, seeing she hath power to exclude from the whole Sacrament. For Cyprian writes to Cornelius, for some Indulgence for those who were excluded.  Theoph. 
Do you believe his first Position, That the People's right to the Sacrament, is given by the Priest to them, and by him may be taken from them?  Phil. 
Yes, when they are Criminals, it may be withheld from them by the power of the Priest; and upon their repentance, again be restored.  Theoph. 
So it is with the offending Clergy, as well as with the People: upon some great offence, they may be suspended from the Sacrament; and therefore why doth he say, the right of the People to the Sacrament, etc. and your answer supposeth an offence, whereupon the right may be taken away. But Bellarmin speaks absolutely, Jus Laicorum, etc. The right the People have to the Sacrament, is from the Priest's concession, I thought it had been from Christ's Institution and command. And Beauties' Inference is insufferable, that as the Church and the ●ishops have power to keep Offenders from the Sacrament altogether, so can they dispose of, and give the Sacrament under one kind, or both, as they think fit: And the absurdity appears herein, Christ hath given power to his Church to Excommunicate Offenders, but not to alter his Institution of the Sacrament. If we had not found it written, we could not believe a Man of Learning should make such Inferences, absurd and irreligious.  Phil. 
If you like not this Answer, you may his second Thoughts 
c Ib. Habuissent certe ex censuet. illius temp. ergo cum sit contr. consuet. introducta non habent amplius jus illud.  That if in Cyprians time the people had a right to demand the Cup, they had it certainly from the custom of that time: and therefore seeing now another Custom is introduced, and a Law made for the Sacrament in one kind, they have no claim or right to the other.  Theoph. 
'Tis horrible insolence in Bellarmin to assert, That if the People had a right to claim the Cup, certainly they derived it from Custom, and to take no notice at all of Christ's Institution, and the Apostles Tradition and Practice. And that he should presume to balance the custom of so many former Ages of the Church, with a custom not many Ages introduced; and withal, not to allow one grain unto all we read of both kinds in the Holy Scripture, to turn the Scale: And why doth he take so great pains to answer the Testimonies which we bring out of the Fathers, for the giving of the Sacrament in both kinds, seeing he might cut all off with this stupendious Solution? It was the custom of so many Ages to receive the Communion in both kinds; it is our custom to receive the Communion in one kind. But notwithstanding this compendious answer of your Doctor, I will go on to prove the practice of the Church to give the Cup, and then I will make the Inference. 
a Hom. 6. in Numeros. dicam vobis quis sit Pop. qui in usu habet sang. bibere, non solum Sacr. ritu, etc.  Origen gives a full Testimony on our side, I will show you who are the People who are accustomed to drink Blood, not only in the Sacrament, but in hearing the word of God.  Phil. 

b Ib. In usu habet non praecepto.  Bellarmine's answer to this Testimony, is short and full. They are accustomed, but not commanded.  Theoph. 

c De Caena Domini. Lex prohibet ejus sang. Evangelium praecipit ut bibatur.  Cyprian shows the Precept as well as the use: The Law, saith he, forbids to eat with the Blood; but the Gospel commands that we should drink it.  Phil. 

d Praecipit ut bibatur, at non ab omnibus.  Bellarmin answers, The Gospel commands that the Blood of Christ should be drank, but not by all.  Theoph. 
Christ's words are, Drink ye all of this. And 
e Qu. 17. in Levit. ad bibendum sang. omnes exhortantur qui volunt habere vitam.  Augustin saith, All are exhorted to drink this Blood who will have life. In the fourth Century, the Fathers of the Greek and Latin Church are all for us. 
f Epist. 289. ad Patriciam Caesariam. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Basil the Great, writing to a great Lady, tells her, It is good to Communicate every day, and to partake of the holy Body and Blood. 
g Regul● 80. c. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Again elsewhere he puts the Quest: What is proper for a Christian? And he gives the Answer, To cleanse himself from all filthiness of Flesh and Spirit, and perfect Holiness in the fear of the Lord, and so to eat the Body of Christ, and drink his Blood. 
h Oratione 42. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Greg. Nazianzen gives advice, Without doubting, eat the Body, and drink the Blood, if thou desirest Life. 
i Homil. 18. in 2. ad Cornith. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Chrysostom hath a memorable Passage to our purpose, I can show you, saith he, where the Priest differs not from the People, when we enjoy the dreadful Mysteries; for we are all alike vouchsafed them: One Body and one Cup, proposed to all.  Phil. 
ᵏ Bellarmin shows, how Chrysostom understands the thing that is Communicated, and not the Signs: and so all receive whole Christ, although under the Species of Bread.  Theoph. 
Seeing there is express mention made of one Cup offered to all, you cannot understand thereby, receiving Christ's Blood only by 
Ib. Rom Sacramenti, etc.  concomitancy with the Body of Christ, under the Species of Bread. And whereas Bellarmin faith, Both the Priest and People did eat of the same Sacrifice under the Law, and therefore the difference between us under the Gospel, and them, could not herein consist; That as well the People, as the Priest, equally share in the Sacrament. I answer, that in the Peace-offering, he that brought it had his part, as the Priest his; but they were different heterogenial parts, the wave-breast and heave-shoulder were the Priest's share, Leu. 7. 34. whereof he that brought the Offering did not eat. And so the Shewbread belonged to the Priest to eat, and not to the People. Now at the Lords Table there is a clear parity between Priest and People, alike partaking of homogenial things, eating the same Bread, and drinking the same Cup. And this was Chrysostoms' design to show, in these words, 
a Ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Not as under the Law the Priest eat some things, and the People other; and it was not lawful for the People to partake of those things which were assigned to the Priest.  Phil. 

b Ib. manifest patet, etc.  Bellarmin shows plainly the custom in Chrysostoms' time to receive in one kind, by a miraculous. Instance related out of Sozomens History, Lib. 8. Of an heretical Woman, who would dissemble Catholic Communion, and received the Bread in Chrysostoms' Church, but kept it by her and eat common Bread, which her Maid brought with her; and it became a stone in her mouth. Now saith Bellarmin, If she must also have received the Cup, How could her first juggling about the Bread conceal her?  Theoph. 
Such Legends as these prove little: If truth, she might think in the throng to escape the Cup; or else set her lips to the Cup, and drink nothing: and so Beauties manifest patet, is manifest latet; in a sinking Cause, he layeth hold of every Reed to support it. Other Testimonies we have out of Chrysostom, 
c Hom. 23. in I ad Cor. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  comparing the Jews Sacraments and Mysteries with ours, he saith. As thou eatest the Lord's Body, so did the Jews eat Manna: as thou drinkest the Blood of Christ, so they water out of the Rock. Another out of the 32d Homily upon St Matthew, near the end, exciting to love, he saith, We have all one Table spread before us, we all drink of the same Liquor; and not only so, but out of the same Cup. Ambrose saith, 
d Mi● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  If as often as Christ's Blood is poured out in the Sacrament, it is shed for remission of sins: I must always receive it, that my sins may be always forgiven. He seems to imply, that if we stand in need of remission of sins, we must take the Cup of Salvation. 
e De Sacramentis, l. 4. c. 6. Debeo illum semper accipere, ut sensperper mihi pecc. dimittantur.  Again, speaking mystically of the Priests of the Gospel, he saith, The Priest, by the word of God, toucheth the rock, and the waters flow, and the Lords people drink 
ᶠ Ib. l 5. c. 1. Verbo Dei tangit petram & fluit aqua, & bibit populus Dei.  thereof. 
a Theodoreti hist. lib 5. c. 18. Quâ audaciâ poculum sang pretiosi ere tuo participabis? etc.  Again, his Speech to Theodosius the Emperor, when he came to receive the Sacrament after that great slaughter of many thousands, committed by his command at Thessalonica, proves our Point, With what confidence canst thou receive with thy mouth the Cup of Christ's precious Blood, with such bloodguiltiness, etc.  Phil. 

b Lib. 4. c. 26. Fatemur datam utramque speciem in aliq. locis; sed non Jure Divino.  Bellarmin answers to these Testimonies of the Fathers, That in some places the Sacrament was administered to the People in both kinds, but not by any Divineright.  Theoph. 
'Tis enough for us at present to prove the practice of the Church, and that he confesseth. 
c In Malach. c. 2. Sacerdotes Euch. conficiunt, & sang Domini populo distrib.  Jerome saith, The Priests consecrate the Eucharist, and distribute the Blood of Christ unto the People. And to this Bellarmin confidently answers, Nihil novi. This is no news: It is in truth no news, to hear the Father's witnessing, that the Cup was given to the People: Where do they say, the Bread was given without the Cup?  Phil. 
You shall find we have sufficient proofs of that out of Antiquity.  Theoph. 
Such manifest Proofs as Bellarmin brought but now: Legends, and reservations, and half proofs, but I will suspend my judgement till you offer them, and I go on to show the Testimonies of every Age in this Point, although I may weary your patience and mine own. 
d Decret. part. 2. causa 33. q. 3. c. 37. Dum frangitur hostia, dum sang. de chalice in or a fidelium funditur. Ib. c 36. Ibi vos estis in mensa, etc.  Gratian hath collected several Passages out of St Augustin, and the Sentences of Prosper, While the Host is broken, and the Blood is poured out of the Cup into the mouths of the Faithful. Again, Ye are together with us at the Table, and in the Cup; we drink together, because we live together. This evidently shows both kinds distinctly and apart, distributed to all the Communicants, the Priest and People eating and drinking together at the Lords Table, as all were partakers of the same Spiritual Life. In the fifth Century, we have a full proof before the fourth General Council, of the Communion given in both kinds. Samuel, and other Priest's, put in Articles into the Council of Chalcedon, against Ibas Bishop of Edessa: the 9th Article was this, That upon complaint he had neglected to punish some Officers, 
e Bin. Tom. 3. Concil. part. 2. Conc. Chalced. Actione 10, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  who upon a great Festival had provided but little Wine, and that not good, for the Sacrament to be distributed unto the People; so that at the time of administering the Cup, they were constrained to send for more to the Tavern: and when that sufficed not, the Bishop gave a nod to those that administered the Bread, to come up to the Altar, and for bear giving the Body of Christ, because there was not Wine enough to come after. This ample Testimony, proves the Cup was of necessity given to the People, and that the Bread could not be given without the Cup: for they who delivered the Bread, were commanded to cease, because for want of Wine others could not follow them with the Cup. And this the whole Council approved, admitting the Charge against the Bishop; never answering, more Romano, That the People might receive the Body without the Cup. This agrees well with that saying ascribed to St Augustin, 
a Al●erus l. 2. c. 8. De Sacrament, nec car● sine sang. nec sang sine carne jure communicatur.  by Algerus a Benedictine Monk, Neither can the Flesh be of right distributed without the Blood, nor the Blood without the Flesh.  Phil. 

b Lib. 4. c. 26. Ea scent. non est Aug. at Paschasii.  Bellarmin saith, It is not the saying of Augustin, but of Paschasius.  Theoph. 
We will not dispute that: But what saith he to the words themselves? For Bellarmin acknowledgeth the Testimony of either to be good.  Phil. 
He saith, They speak not of the signs, but of the thing signified, The Body and Blood of Christ, and they are always communicated together by a concomitancy.  Theoph. 
This is the usual shift, but it helps him nothing: For in this sense, one cannot be given without the other: But the words say, 
c Non jure communicatur.  One without the other cannot of right be communicated, implying, that injuriously it might be.  Phil. 
Bellarmin applies those words (non jure communicatur) to the Persons receiving, not to the things received. 
d Non jure common. qui sentit unum accipi sine all 〈…〉.  They ought not of right to communicate, who think they can receive the Body of Christ without his Blood.  Theoph. 
This is an Application at random, against the scope and the express construction of the words, but you shall never find him without an Answer; something he will say to amaze the People. But I proceed: About this time Pope Leo the first makes a Decree, That some Manichees should be observed strictly, who dissembling Church-Communion with Catholics, would come to the Sacrament, and receive the Bread but not the Wine; because they esteemed Wine a Creature of the Devil. 
e Vt vobis hujusmodi homines ex his manifest●tur indiciis.  Now by this mark, he would have them discovered, if they refused to receive the Cup, and so cast out of the Church. Not long after, 
f Bin. Tom. 3. In not is advitam Gelasii. Aut Sacramenta integra percipiant, aut ab integris arceantur, etc. Divisie uninus & ejusdem mist. etc.  Pope Gelasius seconds the Decree: We have heard, saith he, That some receiving the Body of Christ in the Sacrament, forbear the Cup, I know not upon what superstitious ground, but let those either take the Sacrament entirely, i. e. in both kinds, or let them be excluded altogether. And he gives a reason most observable, The division of one and the same Sacrament, cannot be without grand Sacrilege  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows out of Gratian, That this Order was made only for the Priests, who are obliged to receive in both kinds.  Theoph. 
He might with more reason say, It was made for the Turks, who with the Manichees, abhor Wine: Can it be supposed, That Manichees could be Priests of the Catholic Church, and so be commanded to communicate in both kinds? no, it was made for their discoveries, when they thrust in among the People, and would appear as Catholics?  Phil. 
It appears by this Passage, that the Church then gave the Sacrament without the Cup, otherwise how could the Manichees hope to counterfeit Church Communion, because refusing the Cup must needs betray them.  Theoph. 
By this we prove the contrary: For how could they be discovered by refusing the Cup, if it were not given to the People?  Phil. 
Those two Pope's decree, the Cup should be given at that time on purpose to discover these Heretics.  Theoph. 
No such thing: The Decrees were made for stricter prohibition and observation; perhaps some negligent Priests before might let them pass without the Cup, or they might take down none of the Wine when the Cup was brought to them, only put it to their Lips, or the like: But how do you answer Pope Gelasius his reason of the Decree, and free yourselves from grand Sacrilege? One and the same Sacrament cannot be divided without grand Sacrilege.  Phil. 
I must confess, in that place Bellarmin takes not any notice of that considerable passage of the Decree.  Theoph. 
Because it was unanswerable. This is the first time I have found him silent, and so I may the better proceed without interruption. In the Year 589. in the third Council of Toledo, we read how the pious King Reccaerdus, held a Council of all the Bishops of Spain and Gallicia, when Pelagius the second was Pope, principally that the Goths in his Dominions might abjure the Arrian Heresy: Among other things, the King gives direction to the Bishops, That after the Oriental Custom, all the People should rehearse the Articles of their Belief, 
a Bin. Tom. 4. Pag. 501. Ei sic corda fide purif. ad Christi corp. & sang. percip. exhibeant.  That so their hearts purified by Faith, might receive the Body and Blood of Christ.  Phil. 
If they received in one kind, they received the Body and Blood of Christ.  Theoph. 
Alas, your Doctrine of concomitancy was never heard or thought of, in those Pious Times. In the next Council of Toledo, Anno 633. when Honorius was Pope, Sisimundus being King, it is ordered in the 18th Canon, 
b Bin. p. 587. Conjunctio panis & Calicis.  That after the Lord's Prayer, and the Bread and Cup joined, a blessing shall be pronounced upon the People, and then the Sacrament received by all in their several places: first, the Priest and Deacon at the Altar, the other Clergy in the Choir, the People without the Quire. You see therefore the Sacrament was given in both kinds to all the People, by the Decree of these Councils in all the Dominions of Spain. And because the Consecration of the Bread and Wine (as we may conceive) is called in the Canon, Conjunctio panis & calicis, The conjunction of the Bread and the Cup. I might observe from this Expression, they should not be separated. In the Year 736. 
a Bin. Tom. 5. pag. 511. Epistola 2. ad Leonem. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Pope Gregory the second, writing to Leo Isaurus the Emperor, who was called Iconomachus, for his zeal against Images; he thews the Emperor the Church discipline towards Offenders, such as had given scandal to the Church. First, we prescribe Watching and Fasting; and when they are chastised with hunger and severe exercises, the Priests give unto them the venerable Body of our Lord, and make them to drink of his holy Blood. This is a Testimony without Exception, because of a Pope: and it prevents the usual Answer of Concomitancy, for it mentions the Body and Blood given asunder, and it shows the practice of the Western Church. This also is manifest by the Roman Order of the Mass: there we read, 
b Vid. Cassandris Liturgica.  When the Pope gives the Body, the archdeacon confirms, i. e. gives the Cup; and when the Bishops or Priests communicate, the Deacons follow and confirm. And there is express mention made of the Sacrament 
c Descendet pontifex & common. principes, & matres familias eorum, etc.  given to Princes and their Ladies, and to all the People. The same we find, and more in another Ritual, called Ordo Ecclesiasticus, Ecclesiae Romanae. 
d In Epistolam 1 ad Cor. c. 10. Calix dicitur Communicatio sang. quia omnes ex illo uno participant.  Haymo Bishop of Halberstate, says, The Cup is called the Communication of his Blood, because all do partake of that one Cup. 
e In 1 Epist. ad Cor. c. 11.  Theophylact Archbishop of Balgaria, saith, This dreadful Cup is equally communicated to all. 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Oecumenius, upon the same Chapter, The Lord exhibits equally to thee, and to the poor man, the Table and the Chalice of Christ's precious Body and Blood. These in the 11th Century. In the next, Algerus a Monk, when Berengarius was questioned for his Opinion against the Real Presence, 
g Vt panis dum dentibus teritur carnem Christi in pass, attritam: & dum vinum in ora fidelium funditur, sang. de Christi latere fusum signaret.  and recanted. This Learned Monk wrote three Books of the Sacrament; and in the second Book, cap. 8. he shows, how the custom of communicating in both kinds, held in the Church from Christ, That the Bread being macerated with the Teeth, might represent his Flesh torn in his Passion; and the Wine poured into the mouths of the Faithful, signify his Bloodshedding, etc. with many such passages in that Chapter; and so by good Autorities, out of the several Ages of Christianity, I have showed the practice of the Church, to give the Communion in both kinds to the People.  Phil. 
Although Bellarmin and other Doctors, except against some, and answer others of your Testimonies, yet I have not interrupted you in most, because those Answers unto some which I have brought already, will suit the rest.  Theoph. 
You have an excellent Art to make one Almanac serve for every Meridian under Heaven. You have one or two Catholic Distinctions to help at a dead lift. Concomitancy is a great Pillar of your Church, wheresoever the Holy Scripture, or Fathers, speak of receiving Christ's precious Body and Blood, for remission of Sins, and the nourishment of our Souls; you answer, In one kind whole Christ is received, and all his Benefits by a Concomitancy. If we go further, and prove the Elements were received distinctly by the People in the Apostles time, and for so many Ages after. You answer, Vsu non praecepto, they received it so by Custom, and not by Precept.  Phil. 
Yes: And upon this account we are not troubled with all your proofs of both kinds administered to the People so many Ages of the Church, seeing afterwards that Custom generally ceased in the Western Church, and the contrary Custom was introduced and confirmed by three General Councils, Constance, Basil, and Trent.  Theoph. 
'Tis truth, in the 13th Century, giving the Cup unto the Laity began to grow out of use. 
a Part. 3. Quaest. 80. Art. 12. Ex parte Sacramenti convenit, ut utrumque sumutur, etc.  Aquinas moves the Question, Whether it be lawful to receive Christ's Body without the Blood. And concludes, That in regard unto the Sacrament itself, it was convenient, that both kinds should be received, because the perfection of the Sacrament consists in both: but in regard unto the Receivers, reverence and caution was required; and that therefore in some Churches, it was well observed, not to give the Cup unto the People. And yet before, the same Aquinas had determined, 
b Quaest. 74. Art. 1. Quantum ad effect, in unoquoque sumentium, Sae●●mentum hoc vales ad tuicionem, etc.  As to the effect of every Receiver, the Sacrament secures both Body and Soul; and therefore, the Body of Christ is offered for the salvation of the Body, and the Blood, under the Species of Wine for the Soul.  Phil. 
He saith, 'tis offered, to wit, by the Priest, but not communicated to the People.  Theoph. 
Put the Proposition together, it is this, Bread and Wine are the Materials of the Sacrament, required in regard of the benefit and effect in every Communicate for the preservation of his Body and Soul, by the Body and Blood of Christ. Well, Aquinas he starts the Question, Whether it was lawful to receive in one kind? and determins the Point very tenderly. But after this Angelical Doctor (as they call him) the Schoolmen follow the Cry with full Mouth, That there is no Precept to receive in both, and no prohibition to receive in one kind: That upon many Considerations, it is expedient to withhold the Cup from the Laity: That the Church hath power to order things of this nature: and, That after the express determination of the Church in some General Councils, it is even become necessary to withhold the Cup, and an Heresy to dispute against it. Now to prepare the World for this new practice of receiving only in one kind, that so it might be entertained in some places, and get ground, and afford some plea of a Custom in the Church, the Schoolmen started some preliminary Questions, and concluded, That whole Christ was received under each kind; and he that received only the Body of Christ, received likewise his Blood and Soul, and Divinity by a concomitancy. 2 sy, That the whole intent of the Sacrament, as to the People, all the Essentials thereof, were communicated under the Species of Bread, with the Body of Christ 3 sy, That he who received in both kinds, had no advantage of those who received only in one kind. Although we find this last Thesis not so generally admitted among themselves, yet such as oppose must not be peremptory, lest the People should be sensible of some injury done them, in being deprived of that benefit which should be exhibited more in both kinds, then in one.  Phil. 
By your own relation you give us opportunity to observe, how they proceeded upon good grounds, and in a rational way to make good their Thesis, and their practice of the Communion in one kind.  Theoph. 
It was necessary they should say something to endere the People unto a compliance; designing to cheat them of one half of the Sacrament, they would impose upon their credulity, and tell them, the other half which they received, was as beneficial as the whole.  Phil. 
You are not ignorant how they show many good Causes and Considerations for their withholding the Cup; and notwithstanding your pretensions and claim to the practice of the Church for so many Ages on your side, our Doctors show it was always free to communicate in one kind or in both, and show the early practice of the Church for this half Communion, as you call it; and I hope you will now give me leave to put in their Plea.  Theoph. 
Content: And if you can balance those Autorities which I have brought, I will yield the Cause.  Phil. 
I am glad to see in you some hopes of Moderation, and that you will be ruled by Reason and Authority.  Theoph. 
Taking Christ's Institution, and the Holy Scripture along with us.  Phil. 
'Tis supposed, there is no express Precept of Christ, to determine the Church in all Ages to give the Communion in both kinds; and where the Church is left free, she may use her liberty, and determine as occasion serves.  Theoph. 
You beg the Question: and we have urged Christ's Institution, and Example, in giving the Sacrament in both kinds, and his Command to them to do likewise. We have urged the Traditions of St. Paul; the practice of the Apostolical Tunes.  Phil. 
You have urged, and we have answered, and let the impartial Reader judge between us; but besides these Instances of the Sacrament in one kind out of the Holy Scripture, Luke 24. Acts 2. 42. and 20. 7. we have also Testimonies of the Primitive Church, which speak on our side.  Theoph. 
We have proved our way abundantly by the practice of so many Ages, do you so yours; and then I will grant we are left free in this case, every one to do as seemeth good in his eyes.  Phil. 
Not so neither, when the Church hath restrained this liberty, and forbidden the Cup.  Theoph. 
Whether your Church hath done better in the restraint, than the Church for so many Ages before in allowing that Christian Liberty, which you pretend for, to receive in one or both kinds, let the World judge: but we deny any such liberty taken by the Church, or allowed by Christ to communicate in one or both kinds, as the Church should please; and we desire your proof.  Phil. 
First, Bellarmin proves it lawful to communicate in one kind, because the Church never condemned it.  Theoph. 
You should prove that they allowed it: But how should they condemn that which was not practised? Can they divine a new Generation of Monks and Friars should arise, and persuade the People by subtlety and craft to lose their Spiritual Birthright, half the Legacy of Christ, or rather the whole, in a maimed and undue Administration? And moreover, you have heard when the Manichees, and other Heretics, would have brought up this custom, two Popes, Leo and Gelasius, were wroth, and determined positively against them.  Phil. 
I will not interrupt the Series of my Discourse, by reflecting upon bypast Passages, but proceed to show, how the Communion in one kind was in use in the Primitive Times, and not condemned; and so by consequence allowed. Many Customs of the Primitive Times, infer, the Body of our Lord was delivered to the People without the Cup. In the days of Persecution, when they could not assemble often to communicate in public Assemblies, it was usual to carry with them part of the consecrated Bread, wrapping it up in clean Linen, and keeping it in their Houses, until such time as they thought sit to eat it. Of this Custom 
a Lib. 2. ad uxorem, c. 5. Non s 〈…〉 maritus quid secreto ante omnem cibum gastes, & si sciverit, non illum credet, qui dicitur.  Tertullian gives a notable proof, writing to his Wife, That if she inclined to Marry after his death, she should be careful to Marry a Christian, not an Heathen; otherwise, he will not know what thou eatest in secret, before all refection; and if he know it to be Bread, he will not believe it to be that which we call it, viz. The Body of Christ. 
b Lib. de Oratiene, c. ult. Aecepto c 〈…〉 Domini, & re 〈…〉.  And in another place, The Body of the Lord being received and reserved. So 
a Quaedam arcam, in qua Domini sanctum fuit indign. manibus, aperire tentavit, & igne inde assurg. deterrita est.  Cyprian, in his Book De Lapsis, relates, How a Woman endeavouring with wicked hands to open a Chest, wherein the Holy Body of our Lord was locked up, she was terrified with Fire issuing out of the Chest. 
b Qui festinas ad spect. Eucharistiam inter obscoena corp. meretr. tulit.  And in his Book, De Spectaculis, he speaks of one with indignation, Who made such haste to the Heathenish Plays and Sights, that he carried about him the Holy Eucharist, amidst the throng of whorish and obscene Persons. 
c Lib. de Obitu frat. Satyri, c. 7. Ne vacuus mysterii, etc.  Ambrose, showing the Piety of his Brother Satyrus, tells us, That being at Sea in a Storm, ready to suffer shipwreck, he earnestly begged the Sacrament of one that was with him, and wrapped it up in a linen Cloth, and hanged it about his neck; and being cast away, he was the first who escaped alive to the shore.  Theoph. 
What would you prove from these Passages.  Phil. 
That they carried, and kept by them the Body of the Lord, and when occasion served, did eat it fasting at home; and in all these Passages no mention is made of the Cup, or of the Blood of Christ.  Theoph. 
But I can give several express instances of both kinds, which the Faithful carried from Church with them to their Houses. You have heard above, how 
d Apol. 2. Prope finem.  Justin Martyr told you, The Deacons give the Sacrament of Bread and Wine, mingled with Water, to those who are present, and carry it unto such as were absent. 
e Oratione 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  So Gregory Nazianzen shows of his Sister Gorgonia, If any where, saith he, her hand had tresured up any of the Antitypes of the Holy Body and Blood. 
f In Epistolâ ad Rusticum de Exuperio. Nihil illo ditius, etc.  And Jerome most distinctly, speaking of one Exuperius, saith, No man can be richer than he, who carries the Body of our Lord in a wicker Basket, and the Blood in a Viol Glass.  Phil. 
But in most Instances, mention is made only of Christ's Body reserved; and 
g Ligari fecit in Orario.  Satyrus in St Ambrose, caused it to be wrapped up in a Linen Cloth, and bound it about his Neck. Orarium, was a Linen Cloth on purpose, wherein to wrap up the Sacrament, as Vice Comes shows, 
h Lib. 2. de app. missae, c. 19 Orarium, pannus quo caelestis Euch. involvebatur.  I hope you will not say he did wrap up Christ's Blood in a Cloth.  Theoph. 
Yes, he might wrap up the Holy Mysteries, the Bread, and the Wine put in a Vial-glass, together. And Ambrose his Expressions look towards the Wine of the Sacrament, when he saith, 
i Ib. Caeleste mysterium, haustum arcano pectoris, & fusum in viscera.  He received the Heavenly Mystery, swallowed up, as in a draught, in the secret Repository of his Heart, and diffused into his Bowels.  Phil. 
Flesh, when digested, may be said properly to be diffused into the Bowels.  Theoph. 
But you know your Doctors allow not Christ's Flesh to be digested, and turned into Chyle and Nutriment.  Phil. 
These are Niceties; I pray let me proceed without disturbance. You know the Sacrament was usually sent unto the Sick, to be received upon their Beds, Tanquam viaticum morientium, as Food for a long Journey, given unto those who were passing from Earth to Heaven. And this was only in one kind, viz. The Lord's Body.  Theoph. 
I reckon the sick Principly among such who being absent had the Sacrament sent to them, and have showed out of Justin Martyr, they had the Mysteries in both kinds. What the Faithful received in the Church, the same the Deacon carried to the Faithful in their Houses, when by reason of Sickness, or any other justifiable occasion, they could not be present at the public Solemnity. However, your Instances are only of the Communion in private Houses, and the Mysteries reserved; and if one kind only be expressed, the other may be understood. But have you any Testimony of the Church, which expressly shows the Sacrament was given in the Church in one kind only; whereas we have brought a cloud of Witnesses, for the public Communicating in both kinds.  Phil. 
Yes, many ancient Canons make express mention of the Laic Communion, as distinct from that of the Clergy: So that Priests and Deacons, Criminals, were censured to Communicate only as the People, not as the Priests, that is in one kind, not in both. So the Eliberitan Council, Anno 305. in the 76. Canon, speaking of any Deacon who shall receive Holy Orders, being conscious of a great Sin he had before committed, 
a Bin. Tom. 1. pag. 237. Si quis Diaconus, etc. Post quinquennium actâ poenit. accipiat Laicam Communionem.  If he discovers not himself after five Years penance, Let him be admitted to the Communion of Laics. So the Council of Sardica, Can. 2º. concerning Bishops highly criminal, Decrees, They shall not be admitted unto the Communion of Laics, even on their Deathbeds. And so in many other Councils, mention is made of the Communion of Lay-people.  Theoph. 
Yes, we do acknowledge it: But how do you prove that which you and Bellarmin design thereby, That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, was to receive in one kind. We know the Canons by that expression imply. That Men in Holy Orders, committing scandalous Offences, should be degraded, and lie under the severities of Church Discipline and Penance, proportionable to their demerrit; and if at all they are restored to the Communion of the Church, they should be as Laymen, and not restored to the Priest's Office; they should receive the Sacrament without the Choir, with the common People. 
ᵇ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.   Phil. 

a Lib. 4. c. 24. de Sacramento Euch. Nulla distinctio notari potest, etc.  Bellarmin makes sport at this ridiculous Answer. Saith he, This punishment was sometimes so inflicted, that persons offending should not be reconciled and admitted to this Laic Communion, but in peril of Death; nay not then neither, as you have heard in the second Canon of the Council of Sardica: Now to sick Men upon their Deathbed, what distinction can there be of place, or what pre-eminence can a Priest have more than a Layman? and so Communio Laica, no punishment.  Theoph. 
This is Wrangling, not Disputing: We say, as 
b Epistola 52. Communicet ut Laicus & non usurpet locum Sacerdotis.  Cyprian, A Priest so offending, let him become a Layman, and in that quality admitted after repentance, unto the Communion, whether in the Church or in his House, but let him not return unto the Priests Office. One of your French Bishops, Gabriel Albaspinus, hath sufficiently confuted Bellarmin, and all his Disciples in this Point; showing, this Communio Laica, implied the condition of a Lay-person, and not any difference from a Priest in receiving the Sacrament only in one kind. 
c Lib. 1. Observat. c. 4. de Communione Laicâ. Tempore Concil. quibus de Laica Commun. fit mentio, etc.  For, saith he, in Cyprian' s time, and when these Canon's forementioned were made, the Communion was given to the People in both kinds. He brings many Instances to prove it.  Phil. 

d Ibid. constat. ab annis plus octingentis usum in quibusd. Ecclestis communiionis sub una specie in publico coetu fidelium. Et constat Graecos, nunquam hoc Latinis objecisse.  Bellarmin brings another Argument, drawn from the consent and testimony of the later Ages of the Church, That it is evident for more than 800 Years, That in some Churches, in the public Assemblies, the use was to give the Sacrament in one kind. And the Greek Church, saith he, never objected this as an Error to the Latin Church; which is an Argument they accounted it lawful; for otherwise they were willing and quicksighted to discover all our faults.  Theoph. 
This shows Beauties' confidence, To assert stoutly, and prove faintly: How doth he make good the use of 800. Years  Phil. 
The Councils of Constance and Basil say, It had been in use for some long time, as you have heard before. And so Th. of Aquin. before this Council, tells us, That in some Churches it was well observed to withhold the Cup from the People, for the greater reverence and caution.  Theoph. 
These proofs fall short by more than half of 800 years. Aquinas lived in the 13th Century, and then the Communion in one kind had got but little footing, only in some Churches, as he acknowledgeth. the Councils followed in the 14th Century. We acknowledge the withholding of the Cup from the People, began after 1200 Years after Christianity, in the Western Church, but never in the Eastern Church. Bellarmin offers at another proof of a longer date in Bernard's time, related in the History of his Life; written by one of his Contemporaries, one William an Abbot: but those Books of his Life are so full of Legends, that I would not choose to rake in such a Dunghill. They make Bernard to work as many Miracles as our Blessed Saviour.  Phil. 
It is your securest way of answering our Autorities, by slighting them. But I have one considerable Argument more out of Bellarmin, to prove the Antiquity of giving the Sacrament in one kind, in the public Administration thereof, out of the 
a Ordo Romanus.  Roman Ritual, which is conceived to have been composed by Alcquine, Tutor to Charles the Great, above 800 years since.  Theoph. 
Out of which Ritual we have expressly proved the contrary already.  Phil. 
Hereby you may judge how slightly you examine things, and Books; for in the Ordo Romanus you will find, That the Wine is consecrated in a little Chalice, and the Pope drinks of it: and afterwards, the Archdeacon pours out some of the Consecrated Wine into a great Flagon, or Cup of other Wine and Water, and so it is Sanctified for the People's drinking, but not Consecrated.  Theoph. 
This Passage proves the People did drink of the Cup, but the Pope it seems must have some pre-eminence above them: and for the distinction of the Wine Sanctified but not Consecrated, I understand it not. 
b Ordo Rom. vinum etiam non consecratum sed sang. Domini commixtum, etc.  The Ritual saith enough for the Cup which was given to the People: The Wine not Consecrated, but mixed with the Blood of Christ (out of the first Chalice) is Sanctified to all effects. And Bellarmin acknowledgeth it was called, The Cup of the Lords Blood.  Phil. 
I come now to show the Motives which induced the Church to withhold the Cup.  Theoph. 
I wished long since you would come to this Chapter, for I did suppose your Proofs and Testimonies out of Antiquity, would be insignificant; but if there be sufficient reason for the practice, it might excuse in part, although, in truth, no human Reason should prevail against Christ's Institution, in such things, as are the Sacraments merely of Instituted Worship.  Phil. 
Gerson, the Famous Chancellor of Paris, eminent for his Books full of Piety and Learning, was present at the Council of Constance, and hath written in defence thereof, and of their Act in prohibiting the Cup unto the Clergy; and he gives the reason of the prohibition. First, 
c Cas●aliquo profundi potuit, circumgestari sine periculo nequit.  out of great Reverence to Christ's precious Blood, which if communicated to many, might be easily spilt upon the Earth by the Deacons stumbling, who should carry it to the People. 
d Aliqui Latcorum barbas habent. Aliqui Paralytici sunt.  It might stick upon their Beards; and a Palsy hand might shake and spill it.  Theoph. 
These Inconveniencies are accidental, and if involuntary, God will not impure Sin to them. As for the laymen's Beards, the Priests are not such Shavelings, but that they may be liable unto the same Objection. And the Disciples of Christ at Supper with him, are pictured with very grave Beards. And withal, these Inconveniencies may follow the Bread Consecrated: It may stick in their Teeth, and the crumbs may fall to the ground; and you know your Doctors teach, that whole Christ, Divinity, Soul and Body, are contained in every minute Particle of the Host. Out of such pretended Reverence, me thinks, you might be as solicitous, That the Precious Body and Blood of Christ should not be received into the fuming Cauldron of the Stomach, and so keep the Sacrament from us all, in your Patins and Chalices of pure Gold.  Phil. 
Another consideration is, 
a Hyeme cito acescet Aestate putrescet.  That Wine will sooner grow sour, and breed Worms, if it be long kept; as the Eucharist of Christ's Body will not.  Theoph. 
Yes, it will grow mouldy and vinewed; and besides, the Mice may, without care, devour it. But what needs this reservation of the Sacrament, either in the Church, or in our Houses? Blessed be God, we have Tranquillity and Peace, and if our Hearts did not draw back, may Communicate often in the Church. However, you do not hold, that Christ's Blood, under the Species of Wine, can putrify, and what need you be so solicitous for the simple accidents of the Element of Wine.  Phil. 
Another thing is considerable: 
b Fastidium bibentibus afferet.  Some persons may nauseate Wine, and the common People are not used to drink Wine; and so it may cause vomiting.  Theoph. 
Such an Instance seldom happening, cannot prescribe against a general Rule of practice: If the Stomach, thro' an occult quality, should loathe either Bread or Wine, God would dispense with such a Man, and likewise the Church. And although the common People do not drink Wine usually, yet Experience shows, that little Wine they take in the Sacrament never disturbs them. Suppose I should tell them, as you do, It is Christ's Flesh, and Christ's Blood really, materially, this would cause an abhorrency and loathing. Men have not such Ganibal Stomaches, easily to digest such Doctrines.  Phil. 
I pray forbear your Drollery, and let me proceed. In some remote 
c In quibusd. 〈…〉 I'll 〈◊〉  Countries near the Pole, Wine cannot be had without great difficulty: And shall they therefore forbear the Sacrament?  Theoph. 
Unto these Countries the Seas are open, and Merchant's Trade, and Men should take care, and be at some charge, to fulfil an Ordinance of Christ, for the great benefit of their Souls. So in many Countries, there is no Corn to make Bread, but what conveyed from other places. And now tell me seriously, Are not these pitiful Shifts, and shallow Considerations? Reason's flowing from a Man's Invention, rather than Judgement: Shall these things balance the Institution of Christ and the Apostles practice, and of the Church for so many Ages? the end and signification of the Sacrament, as we have manifested at large. If ye had weightier Motives, most of your Doctors would not produce such as these: and herein you do ingeniously declare, That the wit of Man, with all the advantages of Human Learning, cannot speak a word of sense to justify your unreasonable Practice against the Ordinance of Christ.  Phil. 
You make too much haste: I have reserved the best Arguments to the last. Is there not reason the Clergy should have some pre-eminence above the People in these great Mysteries: 
a Alias dignitas Sacerdot. & I 〈…〉 'em pa● esset.  The dignity of the Clergy requires this difference.  Theoph. 
Their dignity appears in those things which Christ hath left to their Ministration: in teaching and ruling the People, distributing unto Christ's Flock the Divine Food of his Word and Sacraments But the Lord's Supper is common to all God's children, who are invited to feed at their Father's table upon the same Provisions: they all want spiritual Food and Nourishment for their Souls and Bodies, and are all Invited to come and take the Waters of Life freely; and they are Inhuman and Accursed who would forbid the Lords People to draw Water out of the Well of Salvation, to cheer their Hearts with this Wine of Consolation. Besides, it hath been declared before unto you, out of Chrysostom and Theophilact, That in the Sacraments of the Church under the Gospel, the Priests and People are equally concerned.  Phil. 
The last and weightiest Consideration is this. That seeing the Church representative, in three General Councils, hath forbid the Cup unto the People: It proceeds in them from a turbulent and Schismatical Spirit, to be so clamorous and importunate to have it restored, against the Canons of the Church. I will produce the Canon of the Council of Constance, which first determined the Sacrament unto one kind. 
b Cana Koirn.  The Sacred General Council of Constance, lawfully Assembled in the Power of the Holy Ghost, Declares, Determins, and Defines, That although Christ Instituted the Sacrament after Supper, and gave it to his Disciples in both kinds, notwithstanding this, the Sacrament ought not to be celebrated after Supper, nor be received by the Faithful not Fasting. And likewise, although in the Primitive Church the Sacrament was received in both kinds, yet to avoid some Perils and Scandals, the Custom is rationally introduced, That the Priest Consecrating should receive in both kinds, but the People only in the Species of Bread. You see the Council fully approves the custom and confirms it, and therefore past the severe Censure following: That no Priest, under pain of Excommunication, 
c Bin. part. 2. Tom. 7. Sessione 1●. Concil. Constant. Concil. Sacrum generale Constans. in Spiritu sancto legit. congregattum declarat, etc.  shall Communicate the People under both kinds. And declares, That such as pertinaciously affirm it to be unlawful, or sacrilegious, to give the Sacrament in one kind, shall be proceeded against as Heretics. You consider not therefore what danger you incur by arguing so peremtorily against this Point.  Theoph. 
We are not solicitous for the danger, in the cause of Christ and defence of Truth; and we know, where your Church wants reason to justify her practice, she hath the argument of the Club, with severity above measure to maintain it. But let us reason calmly in the Point. What Motive induced the Council to make such a Decree, notwithstanding the Institution of Christ, and the practice of the Primitive Church.  Phil. 
Your Party generally design to load the Council with the envy of that Expression, Non obstante; but you may observe, the Council therein only had respect unto our Saviors giving the Sacrament after Supper, notwithstanding which, the Church appoints it to be received in the Morning, and fasting.  Theoph. 
This was not the matter then in question, and needed no confirmation; for in the Primitive Times, the Sacrament was given in the Morning, and to such as were able to forbear, it was given fasting. But the great concern, was the Communion in both kinds, acknowledged to be Christ's Institution, and that he gave it to his Disciples in both kinds; and then immediately follows, Hoc non obstante, etc. And therefore shift it off as well as you can, the words of the Council decrees for the Communion in one kind, notwithstanding Christ's Institution and Example, and the practice of the Primitive Church. But however, answer my question: What induced the Council to decree it?  Phil. 
The Motive is expressed, 
b Cum firmissime sit credendum & nullatenus dubitandum, etc.  Because we must not doubt, but steadfastly believe, That whole Christ, his Body and Blood, is contained under either Species of the Sacrament: And therefore such a custom of giving the Sacrament in one kind, introduced by the Church, and the Holy Fathers, and observed for a most long time, let it be taken for a Law.  Theoph. 
The first part is warily penned: 
c Tam sub Specie panis, quam sub specie vini veraciter contineri.  We must steadfastly believe, that whole Christ is verily contained, as well under one Species as the other. So it may be, if it be in neither: and so we hold, Christ is contained in neither singly, but he is signified and Sacramentally represented, and really and spiritually exhibited by the Sacrament in both kinds unto the Faithful Receiver. His Body that was broken for us, is signified by breaking of Bread; and his Blood shed, by the Wine poured out of the Cup, and separated from the Bread in the Sacrament: and therefore at present, we will dismiss this School nicety, and, by the Councils leave, not take it for granted, That whole Christ, Body and Soul, is in either Species. 
Quod nullus Presbyter sub poena Excommunicate. communicet Populum sub utraque Specie.  But the principal motive follows. Seeing such a custom of giving the Sacrament in one kind, hath been introduced and most long observed by the Church and Fathers; we Decree it shall be taken for a Law, which shall not be changed or reprobated without the Authority of the Church. 
b Bin. Tom. 8. Concil. Basil. Sess. 30. Sub qualibet Specie est integer & totus Christus landab. quoque consuet. common. Laices, etc.  The Council of Basil makes and confirms the same Decree upon the same Motives: Whole and entire Christ is under either kind, and the laudable custom of Communicating the Laity under one kind, induced by Church and Fathers, and hither to most long observed, and approved by Doctors skilful in God's Law, and in the Holy Scripture, and in Church Canons, long since. Let it be a Law, etc.  Phil. 
Yes: The Custom and Practice of the Church should prevail with sober Men, not given to Faction; especially when confirmed by General Conncils.  Theoph. 
Why should not then the Custom and Practice of the Church, which we have proved for so many Ages, prevail for administering the Sacrament in both kinds, especially being exactly conformable unto Christ's Institution and Command, and Apostolical Tradition.  Phil. 
Stay there: We absolutely deny any command of Christ, or of his Apostles, or of the Church representative in a General Council, to administer the Sacrament in both kinds, and we show two Councils forbidding it.  Theoph. 
You deny, but the Scriptures affirm: And the reason why no General Council determined the Sacrament to be in both kinds, was, because the Institution of Christ, and the Tradition of the Apostles, and the practice of the whole Church, was so full and express for it. It was never put to the Question, as I can find, until the 13th Century: and from that time, when the Schoolmen began to swarm, most of them being sworn Champions of the See of Rome: The laudable Custom, as the Council speaks, approved by Holy Fathers, (viz. Monks and Friars) crept insensibly into the Church. And this must be made a ground of Canons, to establish the Communion in one kind, and forbidden the Cup, and declare a Curse upon all those that shall dispute it. And now, when I shall declare the reason, I hope your goodness will excuse that great trouble to myself and you, in those numerous Quotations and Testimonies I have brought to prove the practice of the Church for 1200 Years, in giving the Sacrament unto the People in both kinds. It was chief upon this design, to manifest the gross absurdity of those two Councils, Constance and Basil, who (as you have heard) do ground their Decree for one kind, upon the laudable custom of the Church, taken up not above 100 Years before, against the Institution of Christ, and the conformable practice of the Church for 1200 Years. And withal, to manifest their impudence in calling that a custom rationally introduced, when such 
ᵃ Diutissime obs.  trifling Motives are brought to establish it. And in saying, it was diutissime observata, for a long time observed, when they cannot show one clear Instance, save in the Age immediately before, That the Sacrament was administered in public in one kind in any Christian Church.  Phil. 
It doth not become your Prudence and Moderation so to undervalue General Councils.  Theoph. 
Alas, Those two pitiful Councils of Constance and Easil, you may call them Ecumenical, but you give no more Authority to them, than you think fit: As far as their Decrees suit the Genius of the Court of Rome, they are confirmed, and no farther. 
a Part. 2. Tom. 7. pag. 1134. Exparte Approbatum. in iis quae consra Wicclesum, etc.  Binius, in his Notes upon the Council of Constance, tells us, It was approved in part, in those Decrees against Wicliff, Husse, and Jerome of Prague.: But in the determination of the Authority of a General Council above the Pope, it was abrogated by two General Councils, of Florence, and the Lateran. 
b Bin. Tom. 8. S●ss. 34. C●n●. Basil. Tan suum Sim●niacum, & perjurum, incorig, Scismaticum, fide devium, injurium & bonarum Ecclesi●e p●●ditor●m  So the Council of Basil deposing Eugenius the 4th from his Papacy, As a Simoniacal and per● jured Man, an incorrigible Schismatic, erring from the Faith, injurious, and betraying the Goods of the Church; And choosing Amadeus Duke of Savoy, Pope, called Felix the fifth, and Declaring, That a Council is above the Pope, and hath its Power immediately from Christ: Alas, for these things, this poor Council is hist off the Stage of the World. 
c Sess. 11. Been in notis in Concil. ●asil. p. 526. Conciliabulum Schismat. etc.  And in the Lateran General Council, under Leo the 10th, It is called a Schismatical and Seditious Conventicle, and altogether of no Authority. And yet these are the Councils upon whose Aurority you so much depend to establish your half Communion; and pronounce us all Heretical and Contumacious, for not submitting our Reason and our Consciences thereunto, even against the Scripture and against the Fathers of the Church.  Phil. 
But the General Council of Trent hath no Exception, being held 18 years, and confirmed by Pope Pius the fourth, and subscribed by his Cardinals, as appears by the Bull of Confirmation. See the Council of Trent, set forth in Latin by John Gallemart, D. D. and Professor at Dovey.  Theoph. 
Of the Council of Trent, read the History of Father Paul, a Friar at Venice, a Man of Learning, Judgement, and Piety, beyond compare; and there you will find what just cause the World ●ath to decline the Authority and Decrees of that Cabal: That great Ecclesiastical Body, whose Soul and Spirit was at Rome, receiving day by day Orders, and Directions, and Determinations, from thence in a Portmantle. The Bishops and Fathers of the Council, were acted more by Reasons of State and Principles of Policy, then of Piety; and consulted the Pope and the Conclave at Rome, more than the Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church: And withal, you have no reason to urge us of England with the Authority of the Trent Council, when none of our Bishops were there, except only one fugitive. And as I take it, our Potent Neighbours of France have not yet accepted that Council: and withal, the Council is of too late an Edition to bear up its Authority against the consent and practice of so many Ages of the Church. And therefore, being now grown weary of the Controversy, be pleased to answer this Question, and we will conclude. Why doth the Church persist so stiffly to maintain the Communion in one kind, against so many advantages we have showed, and you must acknowledge on the other side? especially, seeing in the Council of Trent it was so much desired by the Emperor Charles the Fifth, and by the Princes and People of Germany, well affected (so to make up the breach, and keep many from falling away from the Church of Rome) that the Council of Trent would allow the Communion in both kinds: yet we find it was not granted, but referred wholly to the Pope's determination, who never had leisure to take his infallible Chair, and determine that Controversy.  Phil. 
To speak freely, The Fathers of that Council, and the Pope with his Cardinals at Rome, in their Wisdom did well perceive, that such as moved for the Communion in both kinds, were dis-affected to the Church, and made this a specious bait to catch the People. They saw their Concessions in this plausible case, would but make way for many complaints more, and grievances to be redressed: You know, not long before, the Germans published in Print their first 
a Centum gravamina.  Century of Grievances, every Article being as a Libel against the Church. Hereupon they thought it the wisest course to justify the former Councils, and stand upon their Authority, and require subjection from the true Sons of the Church; and as for Heretics and Schismatics, either to subdue them by subtlety and force, or else to slight them.  Theoph. 
This Observation of yours, confirms many Passages we read of Bishops 
b Joannes Baptistà Hosius, Episcopus Rbeatinus, Lib. 4. Gonc. Trid. Sess. 2. Ecclesia nunquam consueverit vel minimum indulg. heriticis, etc.  in that Council, giving their Vote upon the Question, who mightily opposed the allowance of the Cup, and urged, That the Church was never observed to give the least Indulgence unto Heretics, but to establish that which was diametrically opposite to their Positions. 
c Andrea's Cu●sta. Episcopus Legionensis  Another Bishop seconds this Opinion with the Example of the first General Council of Nice, wherein those 318. Holy Fathers would not yield one tittle to the Arrians, although Constantine desired moderation; and the Controversy had well nigh set in a flame the whole World. 
d A verbis commoda interpretatione molliendis ex composito abstinuerunt.  Nay, saith he, they studiously rejected many Words and Expressions of the Arrians, which were capable of a convenient Interpretation. And thus you see with what intolerable Impudence they accounted their Christian Brethren as Heretics, for following the plain Institution of Christ. The Arrians found no favour in the Council of Nice from those Orthodox and Godly Fathers, nor the least degree of compliance; neither must the Protestants in Germany from the Council of Trent. But there was something more in the Wind that hindered the Reformation of the See of Rome; namely this, That if upon the complaint of Nations and People, the Pope should reform abuses, especially such as had been Decreed in Councils: It would be a tacit acknowledgement, that the Church of Rome had solemnly erred in making such unjustifiable Decrees; and so the jealous People would begin to suspect and examine all her Determinations, and be easily persuaded by their Schismatical Guides that in many things the Church had miscarried, and Bills of exceptions and complaint would be put up one after another, as the interest and malice of her Adversaries should contrive them: and therefore, the safest way was ever found for the Church of Rome to stand upon her Justification against the clamours of the whole World, and to put Princes in mind of their Obedience to the Church, and the Obligation that lies upon them by force of Arms to subdue their contumacious Subjects, and make them submit unto Rules and Disciplines of the Churches. This was the sum of that smart Council which Cardinal Soderine gave unto Pope Adrian, when the good old Man was much perplexed with the Complaints and Demands of the Germane Princes and their People, against the corruptions chief of the Court of Rome; His Piety, and Simpllcity, and good Nature, being not well versed in the Politics of Rome, promted him to endeavour satisfaction, and reform all such Abuses as might give just occasion of offence and grievance to their Adversaries. About this great Work of Reforming, he consults the Conclave, and the necessity of the Times, and the public Scandal of Abuses, induced many of the Cardinals to advise a Reformation of many things which were in question. But at last, the subtle and experienced Cardinal Soderinus, who had been versed in the Affairs of Christendom under three active Ponds, Alexander and Julius, and Leo the 10th, turns the Scale of their Votes, and absolutely dissuades any appearance or attemt of a Reformation. He rolls them, That ne●er any Pope with his Cardinals before, thought that a convenient way; but rather by the Interest of Princes, and the power of the Sword, to suppress and extirpate unquiet and schismatical Spirits. That no Pope cut off Heresies by a Reformation, 
a Sed cruciatis quas vocant; excitatis contra 〈◊〉 Princibus & Populis Crucis simbolo in signitis.  but by the ●rucrats, as they are called, the Princes and People being stirred up against them, wearing the badge of the Cross upon their Coat of Arms.  Phil. 
I must confess, Experience hath found this way the surest; for so Pope Innocent the 3d suppressed the Albigenses in France; and Charles the fifth, the German Protestant Princes.  Theoph. 
But thro' the Providence of God, you find the Lutherans are yet alive in Germany; and several Princes, together with their Subjects, reformed themselves in spite of all opposition, protesting against those Errors, which the Church of Rome intends to justify only by the Sword, and by the Inquisition: and the lower you draw your Observation, the more success you will find God hath given unto many Kingdoms and People, against the Tyranny and Innovations of Rome.  Phil. 
The Judgements of God are a great deep; and you may not enter into his Secrets, and judge of Truths, by the Success.  Theoph. 
No, my design only was to confute that politic Cardinal's Observation, and yours, viz. 1. That the Peace of the Church is better maintained by the Sword, then by a Reformation of Errors and Corruptions. 2. That to acknowledge no Errors, but to stand upon the Infallibility of the Church of Rome, is the compendious way to cut off all Complaints and Objections against her. But whilst your Doctors say, Your Church of Rome cannot err, we know she doth err, and that damnably. And hereof we shall make a Demonstration from the effect, and overthrow her pretensions to Infallibility, by thewing, how in many particulars of Doctrine and Practice she hath miscarried, which is the design of this present Conference; and by God's help, and your permission, I will proceed to other Articles and Points of difference between our Church and yours, and let the World judge, upon which side the Word and Truths of God determine.  Phil. 
You carve out work more than sufficient: However, at present, it is high time to intermit these Severities of Discourse, and think of taking some Recreation. A pleasant walk into the Grove will refresh us: And then to make amends for your poor Entertainment, after we have passed the Evening in Familiarity and Friendship, you shall take your rest; and, if you please, to Morrow we will enter again the Lists of Disputation.   

THE THIRD PART. Of Worshipping IMAGES.  Theoph. 
SIR, I have found so much courtesy within Doors, that now we are come abroad to continue a Discourse of Controversy, methinks it is not Manners and Civility to oppose your choice and Judgement, and try your Patience, who have given such Demonstrations of your goodness. But when all proceeds from a Zeal to Truth, and from a cordial Affection to so worthy a Friend, and you have charity to believe it, I am encouraged to proceed. Having therefore discussed already two Points, I propose the third to Consideration. The great scandal that is given by your Church of Rome unto sober Men and good Christians, from Images and their Worship, so much pleaded for and defended by your Doctors.  Phil. 
This was indeed a third Objection, which in the beginning of this Conference you proposed against the Doctrine and Practice of our Church, which you suppose hath given occasion of Scandal both to the Learned and unlearned, as being obvious (as you said) unto every understanding: But where lie the apparent Exceptions against this Point?  Theoph. 
The second Commandment appears at first sight to forbid worshipping of Images, and you allow it.  Phil. 
So you make your deluded People to believe, designing to create a prejudice and odium against our Church, that so you might keep them firm to your heady separation from us: But your Learned know in their Consciences, that we do not transgress this Commandment, neither in the thing forbidden, or in the manner of Worshipping our Images; which are not included in the prohibition of Gods Law.  Theoph. 
You appeal to the Learned of our side, as though you would allow them to decide the Controversy if they would speak the dictates of their Consciences. But this is a sleight and Artifice, to wipe off your own guilt, and lay the charge of Dissimulation to our Doctors: But their Grounds and Reasons, when produced, will manifest to the World, that the charge they lay against them of transgressing the rule of God's Word in this Point, proceeds out of Conscience and not Design: you give a great scandal and offence to God and Man, and would not have us zealous to reprove it.  Phil. 
Zeal without knowledge and discretion, hath set the World in a Flame, and you are forward to blow the Coals.  Theoph. 
We read, Isa. 6. 7. how a Seraphim took a Coal from the Altar, and laid it upon the Prophet's mouth, and so gave him commission and command to speak. Now the word of God is this coal from the Altar, enkindling Holy Fires in the Heart, and opening the Mouth of his Servants to adjust his will revealed, against the Transgressor's thereof.  Phil. 
You will in short time pretend to Euthusiasm; when we have beaten you off from your strong hold, your supposed sanctuary in the Scriptures, that must be your last refuge.  Theoph. 
Your Fathers and Founders of the several Orders, have showed the way, and acted the Phanatic part so well, that you presume we must needs be taken with it, and herein become their Disciples: but if it be Enthusiasm to follow the rule of Holy Scripture, and show how palpably you do swerve from it; we shall be ambitious of that reproach.  Phil. 
It is an ill Omen to engage in Quarrels and bitter Reproaches, before one Argument hath passed between us. If you have any thing to object against our Doctrine, or our practice concerning Images and their Worship, let us hear it.  Theoph. 
God, in the second Commandment, hath forbid us to make and worship Images; and your Church hath mightily advanced the Trade of Painting, and Carving, and Graving Images, and require veneration and worship to be given to them.  Phil. 
Let us proceed by degrees to answer your Objection, which consists of many parts: Do you condemn us for allowing and countenancing the Art of Imagery?  Theoph. 
If we did, we should not want the Authority of some Ancients, so severely did they adhere to the Letter of the second Commandment.  Phil. 
You know, God himself commanded Moses to make two Cherubins for the Ark, and to erect a brazen Serpent in the Wilderness, Exod. 25. 18.  Theoph. 
And you may know, That this was objected to Tertullian; and I pray observe how he answers it, 
a Lib. de Idolol. cap. 5. Bene quod idem Deus extraordinario 〈…〉.  The same Lord who forbade Images, by an extraordinary Precept may command them. And he concludes excellently to our present purpose. 
b Si eundem Deum observas, habes legem ejus ne feceris simili 〈…〉 postea factie, etc.  If you observe the same God, you have his Law, not to make any likeness. If you urge his command afterwards, that Moses should make an Image (of the Cherubins and the brazen Serpent) do then follow Moses example, make no Image against the Commandment of God, unless the Lord expressly command thee. And here, by the way, you may observe how in this place Tertullian, (and I could show the like of many of the Fathers) makes no such distinction (as your Doctors do) of Idols, which represent false Gods, and so are nothing in the world, as the Apostle speaks, 1 Cor. 8. 4. and whereunto you precisely restrain the prohibition of the Commandment, or of Images, which represent real Things or Persons, God, Angels, or Men; for you see in Tertullia's Opinion, even the Cherubins, and the Brazen Serpent were included in the Commandment; and had not God afterwards expressly commanded them to be made, it had not been lawful for Moses to have made them. And I must confess, I have purposely waved that Controversy about the words and sense of the Commandment, because your Doctors have so perplexed it with Notions and Distinctions, not intelligible to the Hearer or Reader.  Phil. 
You will find, the same Tertullian shows, 
a Lib. 2. Contra Marcionem, c. 22. Tanquam simplex ornamentum, etc.  The end of the second Commandment was to prevent Idolatrous Worship of Images; as it follows in the Commandment, Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them. And that God commanding the Cherubins to be made for Ornament and Furniture of the Tabernacle, it was no contradiction to his Law, having not in them the causes of Idolatry, for which the making of Images were prohibited. Such an answer he likewise gives for the brazen Serpent: It was made for cure, to heal the People who were stung with Fiery Serpents in the Wilderness, and for a Type of Christ, healing the Nations (as our Saviour himself hath applied it) and a Type likewise of the Old Serpent the Devil, hanged and crucified upon Christ's Cross. These things therefore were not against the Commandment, because they were not made to be adored and worshipped.  Theoph. 
You have led me whether I desired: We do not conceive all Images, or the making of them, to be forbidden by the second Comment, but only such as are made for Religious Worship. 
b Non sit nobis religio humanorum operum cultus.  Let not the worship of things made with hands become any part of our Religion. And again, saith St. Augustin, 
c Aug De vera Rel, c. 5●. Tom. 〈◊〉. non sit nobis Rel. cultus hominum mortuorum:  Let it be no part of our Religion to worship Men that are dead; for if they lived godly, saith he, they will never desire or seek after such honours. 
d Honorandi sont propter Imitationem, non Adorandi propter Religionem.  They are to be honoured for our imitation, not adored as to Religion. But alas! your Doctors have left the old innocent Plea for Images, whether in Churches or other places; That they may be useful for Ornament, for Instruction, for an honourable Commemoration of holy Persons, and for Imitation. All this will not suffice, but you will have Veneration and Adoration, and what not, be given unto them: and so you have given occasion of Scandal to the Godly, and of great Superstition and Idolatry to the more ignorant sort among yourselves, who cannot perplex themselves with such nice Distinctions, wherewith your Leaders think to fence themselves against the charge of Idolatry: But we shall proceed to show this by degrees: Mean while, lest you should make too much use of my Concession concerning Images made for such innocent uses as have been mentioned, That they are not against the second Commandment; I must here put in a solemn caveat against your Images of God, which against all Reason and Religion you make and adore.  Phil. 

a Bell. Tom. 2. l. 2. de Ecclesiâ triumph. c. 8. Non esse tam cereum in Ecclesiâ an sunt fuciendae Imag. Dei, etc.  Bellarmin doth acknowledge, That it is not so certain in the Church, whether the Image of God and of the Trinity should be made, as whether the Image of Christ and of the Saints.  Theoph. 
And yet in the same Paragraph he asserts positively, 
b Licere pi 〈…〉 ere etiam Imag Dei Fatris in ferm. 〈…〉 is senis, & Spiritum Sanctum inf. columbae.  That it is lawful to picture God the Father in the shape of an old Man, and God the Holy Ghost in the shape of a Dove, and citys many of your Doctors to confirm his Opinion; and so your general practice doth maintain it. Now I will first urge the Holy Scripture against this Doctrine and Practice of your Church, and then leave you to defend it. Moses gives a great charge unto the People of Israel, Deut. 4 15, 16, etc. Take good heed unto yourselves, lest ye corrupt and make you a graven Image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast or winged soul, the likeness of any creeping thing upon the ground, or of any fish in the waters; and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou 〈◊〉 the host of heaven, shouldst be driven to worship them and serve them.  Phil. 
This charge is levelled against the Idolatry of the Gentiles, and those Nations whom God cast out of Canaan, who did worship graven Images of Men, and Women, and Beasts, and creeping, things, for Gods.  Theoph. 
The Clause and Parenthesis in the first Verse of this charge: For ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spoke unto you in Horeb, I say this Clause manifests, That God gave the charge, lest by any thing after mentioned, they should attemt to represent him. It is truth, that the Heathen did represent their false Gods in and by such Shapes and Images, and did worship them. And the Almighty God, by a full enumeration of Creatures, forbids any similitude to be made to represent and to worship him under it: And to this effect, the Prophet Isaiah expostulates with an Idolatrous People: To whom will ye liken Gods or what likeness will ye compare unto him? Isa. 40. 18. The best Image of God; is Man; an Image of the Lords own making, that this likeness and similitude of God consists in the Soul of Man, with her noble Faculties of freewill and Understanding, and dominion over the Creatures, in that original rectitude and holiness where with he was created but these things cannot be represented by the linea 〈…〉 of a P 〈…〉 or an Image, which only represent the dimensions and features of a Body; and therefore by the Image of a Man, God cannot be represented, and much less by any inferior Creature. God is Infinite, and Invisible, and Spiritual; and all Images are finite and material, and terminated by visible dimensions, and therefore one cannot resemble another.  Phil. 
To this Bellarmin answers, 
a Vbi supra, Tribus modis potest aliquid pingi, etc.  That God cannot be represented essentially by an Image, but Historically and Analogically he may.  Theoph. 
Your Doctors have vented new and dangerous Doctrines; and you may observe what a fine Web they spin of nice and subtle Distinctions, to catch the unwary People in the Snare: What a rumbling noise this makes in a Countryman's ear, enough to put him in a Sound. God cannot be represented by an Image Essentially, yet Historically and Analogically he may.  Phil. 
Our Church takes care, that the Priests should instruct the ignorant People, and explain these and the like distinctions to them: and so doth Bellarmin explain himself in this Chapter.  Theoph. 
It were the nearer, and far easier way of Instruction, to leave the People to keep the Commandment without any worship of Images, and without the labyrinth of your perplexed Distinctions: But I pray show what Bellarmin means by the Historical and Analogical Pictures of God.  Phil. 
You know, Gregory the Great called Pictures, The Books of Laymen: Such as could not read or study the Scriptures, might behold many Historical passages of Scripture, carved, and limned, and represented to the Eye. As to see in a Picture our Blessed Saviour wrapped in Swadling-clothes, and lying in a Manger, and the Wisemen worshipping and presenting Gifts. So his Circumcision, his Baptism, his Scourging and Crucifixion, effectually represented in Pictures, may more sensibly affect the Heart, then bare reading the Histories in the Gospel.  Theoph. 
But what is this to the Historical Image of God? Christ's Picture is taken as he is Man.  Phil. 
Bellarmin explains himself as to that, In that Historical passage of Gods appearing to Adam and Eve in the midst of the Garden, Gen. 3. after they had eaten of the forbidden Fruit, to paint a Man walking in amidst the Trees of Paradise; and our first Parents hiding from his presence, is to represent God Historically.  Theoph. 
Or rather falsely and unwarrantably: For the Text saith not, that God did appear in an humane Shape; but only, That Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord God, walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, and bid themselves, ver. 8. How God was pleased to manifest himself to them, is not expressed: they must draw the Image of a voice, to represent aright that History.  Phil. 
But there is another instance more opposite, of those three Men who appeared to Abraham at his Tent door in the plain of Mambre, Gen. 18. It is expressly said in the first verse, The Lord appeared to Abraham as he sat at the Tent door. God therefore was represented by one of these three Men, who afterwards (as we read, ver. 17.) stayed and communed with Abraham, when the other two went to Sodom. Now to draw three waifering Men turning in to Abraham's Tent, and entertained by him, whereof two departed towards Sodom, and the third communed with Abraham, would be Historically to represent God under the Image of a Man.  Theoph. 
We deny not, that three Men may be drawn coming towards Abraham, and all the sequel of the Story: but we deny, that either of these thus pictured would be the Image of God, representing him. God afterwards manifested himself to Abraham, in communication, in means unknown to us; whereas under the similitude of a Man, he was altogether unknown to the Blessed Patriarch. You may as well say, a Cloud is God's Image, because he appeared to Moses and the Israelites in a thick Cloud upon Mount Sinai, Exod. 19 9 The same reason holds, for the Holy Ghost descending upon Christ in the shape of a Dove: the Dove was no Image of the Holy Ghost, had no similitude or representation of the third Person of the Blessed Trinity, who is the Eternal Spirit, and cannot be represented by Picture. If you saw the Picture of a Dove, you would not say, This is the similitude or Image of the Holy Ghost.  Phil. 
The whole Scene of Christ's Baptism being represented in a Table, and among the rest, a Dove descending upon Christ, it would put us in mind of the Holy Ghosts descent upon him.  Theoph. 
So the Rainbow in the Clouds, puts us in mind of God's gracious Promise, never to drown the World a second time. These are Signs, but not Similitudes or Images. Answer me this Question: Would you worship one of them as God? If we saw the Baptism of Christ represented in Images, would you worship the Dove pictured therein? or would you worship the shape of fiery Tongues in Picture descending upon the Apostles?  Phil. 
I am not concerned to give an Answer to such Impertinencies.  Theoph. 
Well, if you will not be put out of your road, proceed: and show what Bellarmin means by an Analogical Picture of God.  Phil. 
He tells us, 
a Vt supra. Potest aliquid pingi ad explicand. etc.  That things may be represented and painted, and their nature explicated, not by an immediate and proper similitude, but by Analogy, or a Metaphorical and Mystical representation.  Theoph. 
Alas! with how much difficulty doth your great Doctor express himself: Feign he would say somewhat to the purpose, but knows not what: and therefore he involves himself in a cloud of mystical terms and notions, very well suited, doubtless, to the capacity, and for the Instruction of the People. I must needs acknowledge, I comprehend him not, and much doubt whether he understood himself.  Phil. 
Your doubts and no understanding must be no rule to us. Bellarmine well explains himself by following Instances: As we picture Angels, saith he, with youthful and fair Countenances, and with wings, to show their speed in God's service, and their flourishing state always in the spring of youth; as Christ is pictured in the form of a Lamb to represent innocency and meekness: after this Analogical way, Man is the Image of God, even extra historiam; and we may picture God under an humane shape.  Theoph. 
Your Doctor derived this deep Theology from the Pythagoreans, or rather from the old Idolatrous Egyptian Priests, who were much taken with Hieroglyphics. But I pray observe, how his Instance in Man as the Analogical Image of God, is the worst chosen of all the rest: For all Lambs are meek and patiented, and so may Hieroglyphically represent the patience and meekness of Christ. But most Men are evil, like the Beasts that perish, as Lions, and Tigers, and Wolves, devouring one another; as Swine and Goats for Lust, and so are become rather Images of the Devil. And notwithstanding all this, must the single Image and Figure of a Man, without any other thing to determine it, represent God, and become his Analogical Picture? and let me observe to you, how they deal worse with God, then with the Angels; for these they picture fair and youthful, to represent their florid incorruptible state: but they picture God, as the ancient of days, whom we read of in the Prophet, Dan. 7. 9 with a grey Beard, and antique Countenance, as if he had one foot in the Grave.  Phil. 
That form sitly represents God's Eternity.  Theoph. 
Any thing that shall please the fancy, where there is no ground in Reason or Religion to determine it. The Heathen Poets made prodigious Deities; and so do Christian Painters. But what Analogy can there be between the Divine Nature and an Image? the one is Infinite, the other finite; the one a Spirit, the other altogether material. An Hieroglyphic, or Image, which represents God in one respect, must be infinitely defective in many other. The Egyptians Analogically represented the great Deity of the World, by the Hieroglyphic of an Eye, to signify his Allseeing Providence. But alas! the Eye seethe, but doth not foresee. It is the Mind that is provident, not the Eye: And then where is the Power, and Justice, and Mercy of God represented by that Emblem? If all were an Eye, where is the Body? saith the Apostle: And if an Eye shall be the Image of God, where is the Hand of Power, and the Sceptre of Government, and the Scale of Justice, and Thunderbolt of his Wrath? Put all the Emblems in the World together, and they shall represent God, as a shadow doth the Sun. God hath clearly revealed himself to us in his Holy Word, and you have drawn a veil upon him by your Dysanalogical Images, and Pictures: you take from the People the Holy Scriptures, and teach them by Pictures, according to that memorable Saying of a Pope, Pictures are laymen's Books. But God is a Spirit, saith our Blessed Saviour, and Men must worship him in Spirit and in Truth, Joh. 4. 24. And ●o! by your Pictures of God, you determine the Worship and the Imagination of deluded People, to the shadow and representation of a Body: And because Man is the most excellent of all bodily and visible Creatures, you have favoured God with an human shape; whereas the Heathen, vile wretches! worship him under the shape of an Ox that eateth grass.  Phil. 
If God was pleased to manifest himself in an human shape (as you have heard:) Why may not we represent him so to the People.  Theoph. 
First, there is a great mistake in those Apparitions of God in the Old Testament: you make use of them to represent God the Father in a human shape, whereas the Fathers generally hold, that God the Son assumed those appearances, and therefore they called them, Praeludia Incarnationis, the Prologues of his future Incarnation; and so they cannot warrant your Picturing of God the Father. But to come more close to our present purpose, such Visions of God which we read of, were transient, cited only to the present purpose: as in that of Daniel, concerning the ancient of days, it represented Gods dreadful coming to Judgement; as you may read at large the 9th Chapter. Now you would make a standing Representation of God thereby, to all ends and purposes whatsoever. And again, when the Prophet had his Vision, it was also revealed to him what it signified; otherwise, an old Man with white garments, and the hair of his head like wool, could not have represented God to the Prophet. It was no Image that did bear any Analogy or Resemblance of the Divine Nature, or of any Person of the Trinity, and therefore cannot be made use of by itself to represent God. 
a 3. Dist. 9 Qu. 2.  Durandus, a great School-man, tells us, Such Forms wherein God appeared in the Old Testament, were not assumed into one Person with the Divine Nature, as was the Humane Nature of Christ; and when the present design was over, they were laid aside, as we put off our clothes. And you may as well make a suit of Clothes the Image of a Man, as these Forms the Image of God. Suppose any Man should converse with you a day or an hour under a Vizard, would he like it, if you should take his Picture, and the standing copy of his countenance from the Vizard? When the Holy Scriptures mention the Eye of the Lord, and the Mouth of the Lord, his right Hand, and his Holy Arm; will you take these parts, and set them together, and make the Image of a Man to represent God, and bring these Autorities of Scripture for your warrant? This is a ready way to make our People Anthropomorphites; to create in them an Imagination, that God consists of Parts and Members as a Man; and that his Image, after which God made Man, was imprinted in the Body. In the Gatechizing of Youth, we find it an hard work to take their minds off from such conceits, notwithstanding all the help of Holy Scriptures, which expressly declare, That God is a Spirit, and not flesh; invisible, and not a Body. When we tell them, that in such Expressions of God's Eye, and Hand, and Mouth, etc. the Holy Ghost descends to our capacity, and speaks of God after the manner of Men: That he seethe all things without Eyes, he maketh all things without hands; for he spoke the word, and all things were made: and yet the Heavens are called his handiwork, and so the whole Creation, because Man performeth several Operations by several Organs of the body, therefore, for our better apprehension, these Members figuratively, and by a Trope, are ascribed to God, although he worketh all things by himself, by the Almighty Power of his will and pleasure. Now when we labour to explain these things unto the People, they hardly sink into their hearts, to take them off from terrene Cogitations of God; and much more would they be confirmed in such low conceits of the Divine Nature, if they should constantly behold God pictured, and worship him under an humane shape.  Phil. 
For no other end do we represent God under an humane shape, but to descend unto vulgar capacities; and our Priests can instruct them, as well as you, that God is an invisible Spirit.  Theoph. 
Such Images which you make of God, are not Tropes and Figures to represent him to the minds of Men, but real Representations to the Eye; and so are apt, in undiscerning Persons, to improve the imagination, that God is like unto us in our Earthly Members: and for this cause, among others, he hath forbid such Images, and you transgress the Commandment of God, and endanger the Souls of deluded People, in making and expressing such Pictures unto public view and adoration. And it is worthy Observation, That although God would borrow a visible shape to appear unto a discerning Patriarch and a Prophet, yet he would not do so when he would manifest his presence to the whole Congregation of Israel, he descended upon Mount Sinai in a Cloud, in the voice of Thunder: and he expressly makes the Observation to the People, when he prohibited any likeness of God to be made, Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves, for ye saw no manner of similitude, on the day that the Lord spoke unto you in Horeb, out of the midst of the Fire, Deut. 4. 15.  Phil. 
Your worthy Observations must not think to carry the cause against the Traditions and Determinations of the Church.  Theoph. 
I do not expect they should, when the Commands of God do little move you: However, to keep others out of the snare, we will not spare to represent the ill effects of your picturing God, when you usually draw the Image of the Trinity after this manner, An old reverend Man, with a little Youth, and a Dove to represent the Holy Ghost: here you conceive you have given us the three Persons, but where is the one Substance? the one only true God? These Images necessarily represent a diversity of Natures and of Substance, as well as a distinction of Persons. And when you make God the Father ancient, and God the Son as an youth, you sensibly confirm the Doctrine of 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Arrius, who maintained, That Christ the Son of God was younger than his Father, and that there was a time when the Son of God was net. And therefore Abulensis 
a Cap. 4. Deut. qu 5. Erroris inductivae sunt, cum periculo Idolatriae & Herefis, etc.  peremtorily determins against making Images of God, or of the Holy Trinity, as being Inducements of Error, and with the danger of Idolatry and Heresy of attributing unto God corporeity, and an essential distinction of Persons in the Godhead: And although, saith he, the Church hath received such Images, or dissembled them, yet they do not signify aright. And suitably hereunto, we read how Pope John the 22d. declared some for Heretics and Anthropomorphites, and burned others in the confines of Bohemia and Austria, because they made use of such Tables to represent the Holy Trinity under the Pictures of an old Man, a Youth, and a Dove. And now I will bring the approved Testimony of the Ancients against representing God by any Picture. 
c Defid & symbolo, cap. 7. Credimus quod sedet ad dextrum Dei patris, etc.  Augustin saith, We believe Christ sets at the right hand of his Father; not that God is circumscribed with an humane form, or sits with his knees bended, etc. lest we should fall under that Sacrilege for which the Apostle accursed those who changed the Glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of a corruptible Man. It is wickedness to set up such an Image in a Christian Temple. 
d Clemens Alexand. Pro treptico ad Gentes. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Another Father tells us, We have no visible Image of a visible Matter, but an intellectual of a spiritual Substance: God is no sensible Spectacle. 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Lib. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Again, Moses put no Statue or Image of God in the Tabernacle, intimating, that God is a Majesty invisible and incircumscribed. 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  In the same Book he shows, how Moses was expressly commanded not to make any graven Images, or likeness of God; that we might not look on things visible, but intelligible, for the easiness of beholding him, vilifies the Majesty of God; and to worship the intelligible Substance by a material Object, is to dishonour God by our sight. It was the general great design of the Holy Fathers, to take Men off from material and sensible Cogitations, when they apply their hearts to God, to know him, and to worship him. 
g 2 a. Therapeut. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Theodoret shows, how God doth manifestly teach us that nothing visible can be likened to him: And he forbids all Men, saith he, to make any Image of things visible, so as to conceive it may become an Image or Statue of the invisible God. Nay, the second Council of Nice, which first established the honour and worship of Images of Christ and of the Saints, yet expressly declares against any Image of God. 
h Act. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  John, Bishop of Thessalonica, saith, We make the Image of Christ as Man, not as we believe him to be God by nature: for what likeness or Figure can there be of him, who is incorporeal and interminable. 
i Bin. ●om. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Gregory, the second Pope of that name, in his first Epistle 
b Aventinus Annalium Priorum, lib. 7 pag. 601.  to Leo Isaurus the Emperor, saith, Why do we not make the Father visible in Picture? because we know him not: and it is impossible to represent in Picture the nature of God. 
a Crth. fidei lib. 4. c. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  And Damascen, a great favourer of Images, speaks full to this point, What representation can be made of God, who is incorporeal, uncircumscribed, invisible, and interminable. And he concludes, It is extreme folly and impiety to figure God. You see how positive they are against any Picture of God.  Phil. 
Bellarmine takes notice of many of these Autorities and Arguments, and shows how they are spoken of an Image of God, which should represent his Essence; and he grants that to be impossible.  Theoph. 
In every Controversy he hath a Catholic Distinction to help him at a loss; as I have observed before: We cannot picture God essentially, saith he; no nor Man, nor any thing in the World, say I. A Picture gives only the outward Lineaments and Features: but these Autorities which I have urged, say, There can be no Image, not of his Essence, but of an invisible God; no Lineaments of him who is Infinite: It is extreme folly and madness to attemt it. Nay, Bellarmin himself acknowledgeth, that divers Schoolmen are against making an Image of God; but he will be of the right side: He resolved to be a Cardinal against the rule of his Order, and so he will maintain Opinions to please his Party, against the rule of Scripture: and we may believe, of his own Conscience, what the Court of Rome doth countenance, he must defend; otherwise, against such evidence of Scripture and Reason, and the Testimony of the Fathers, he would never have asserted the lawfulness of making a visible Image of the invisible God, so to instruct the unwary People to become Idolaters and Heretics, as one of his own Doctors hath sufficiently observed 
b Abulensis, ut supra.  And so I leave this detestable Point of making a Picture and Image of God.  Phil. 
You observe this is not so generally defended by our Doctors, and therefore you ought not so severely to lay it to our charge.  Theoph. 
Why doth not your Church forbidden it, but rather dissemble it, as Abuhensis expresseth it? If we must not say she doth with full approbation receive this abominable practice, yet in most Cathedral Churches we shall find such Representations of the Holy Trinity, and Pictures of God the Father in an human shape, and of the Holy Ghost in the shape of a Dove: We call for a Reformation of these gross Errors, but you lend a deaf Ear, being given over unto strong Delusions; and have found doughty Doctors, and sworn Champions of your Church to defend the practice.  Phil. 
You should not be so severe in a disputable Case.  Theoph. 
Who made it disputable, when the Holy Scriptures and Holy Fathers condemn it? In process of time, an Antichristian Generation may put it to the Vote and Question, whether there be a God; and we, forsooth, must use moderation in a disputable case.  Phil. 
All this hath been a kind of digression, to load us with the greater envy. Have you any thing to ob●ect against the Images of Christ, and of the Blessed Virgin, and of the Saints to be received with honour and due veneration? there lies the knor and difficulty between us: Councils and Popes have avowed that practice, and your Doctors, with great impudence, declaim against it.  Theoph. 
I can produce an ancient 
a Bin. Tom. 1. Concilii Eliberat. c. 36. Placuit picturas in Ecclesia esse non dobere, ne id quod colitur & Adoratur, in partete depingatur.  Canon of the Eliberitan Council in Spain, forbidding Images in Churches, It pleaseth us, That Pictures should not be in Churches, lest that which is Worshipped and Adored, be painted on the wall.  Phil. 
This Canon may respect the Pictures of God, and not of the Saints, and you have dismissed that Point.  Theoph. 
Your Church, however, is to blame to transgress this Canon, in admitting Images of God and of the Trinity: But seeing you allow Worship and Adoration to the Images of Christ and of the Saints, the reason given in the Canon reacheth them also. The Fathers would not have that which is worshipped, pictured on the Wall.  Phil. 
You will find other Answers given to that Canon, That it prohibited Images in the Church, because then the People were newly weaned from Idolatry, and might be apt to return: For the Council was held under Pope Marcellus, Anno 305. and withal the Heathen, among whom they lived, might suppose Christians did worship Idols, like themselves, whilst they condemned them; and there was danger lest the Gentiles should break in upon them, and do despite unto the Images of Christ and the Saints.  Theoph. 
The Reason given in the Canon, confutes these Answers, and manifests them to be but shifts: That which is worshipped must not be pictured.  Phil. 

b De Im. l. 2. c. 9  Bellarmin having reckoned others, chief approves this Answer: The Canon forbids Images upon the Walls, lest they should be defiled and stained with the moistness and mouldering of the Wall: but Pictures in Arrasor Tables are not forbid, as not being so liable to such Inconveniencies.  Theoph. 
He will say somewhat, though to little purpose; such a ridiculous Answer deserves no Consideration.  Phil. 
But withal, he shows how the Eliberitan Council consisted but of 19 Bishops: And what are they, if compared with such General Councils which afterwards established Images?  Theoph. 
This is like himself, when any thing makes against him, to slight it: But this Council was always held in great esteem, for the Antiquity and Piety thereof. Hosius presided therein, and the other Bishops were most of them Confessors, and at that time assembled, with the hazard of their lives, to give Rules and Directions to the People of God. And in those days Bishops were not so numerous; the World being not subdued to Christianity. And lastly, Binius acknowledgeth there were six and thirty Presbyters in the Council, besides the Bishops.  Phil. 
Once more: Bellarmin shows, That Council did incline to Novatianism, denying Reconciliation unto the Church, even at their deaths, unto some Offenders, as appears in the three first Canons of that Council; whereas about 20 years after, the great Council of Nice, in the 13th Canon, Decreed the contrary: 
a Bin. Tom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We determine in general, That any one departing this life, and desiring to receive the Eucharist, the Bishop, upon examination, shall give it him.  Theoph. 
Bellarmin doubtless was not ignorant, That Pope Innocent the first had vindicated the Eliberitan Council from this imputation of Novatianism, and reconciled the difference of the Canons, by the times wherein they were made. 
b Innocent. Epist. 1. c. 2. Cum illis temporibus crebrae essent persecut. etc.  In those persecuting Times, the Fathers of the Eliberitan Council were more severe, lest the easiness of Reconciliation to the Church should encourage some to Apostatise; they Decreed, That such as did fall off, should not be admitted to the Eucharist, even at their deaths. But when Constantine restored Peace to the Church, and Persecution ceased, the Council of Nice released the former Canon, and Decreed, The Communion should be given to such as desired it upon their death beds. Now Bellarmin's brother Cardinal, 
c Annal Tom Anno 305. Fatetur se paulo liberius de hoc Concil. locutum, etc.  Baronius, taking into consideration this Justification of the Eliberitan Council by Pope Innocent, makes acknowledgement, That he spoken too freely against this Council in his Annals before; and Declares, That there could be no suspicion of Novatianism in that Council.  Phil. 

d Baron. Tom. 1. Anno Christi, 57  Baronius suspects this Canon against Pictures, may be supposititious put in among the rest by some, who had ill will to Images, in after times: Because, saith he, the Image-breakers take no notice of this Canon in their defence.  Theop. 
This is their constant practice, to suspect all that makes against them: They have accustomed themselves much of late, to the corrupting of Fathers and Councils, and would have us believe, they have learned that Art from the Primitive Times. And withal, you may observe Baronius' cheat upon his Reader. In the year 570. he much labours to undermine the Authority of this Council, as being but a particular Council, of few Bishops, given to Novatianism; and for this Canon's sake, against Images all this indignation, and therefore the Canon must be thought supposititious. Now when he hath prepossessed his Reader with these prejudices against this Council, long after, in the year 305. as you have heard, he recants, acknowledging he had spoke too freely against it, and that Pope Innocent had acquitted the Council of Novatianism, etc. Do you not believe the Learned Cardinal knew as much of this Concern when he wrote his first censure of the Council, as when he cries peccavi; only he was willing to undervalue the Council in the first place, and might presume many of his Readers might never go so far as to read this his Recantation. But to proceed in Church History, concerning Pictures of the Saints in Churches, we have a notable passage of Epiphaninus, a Learned Bishop in Cyprus, who going towards Bethel with John Bishop of Jerusalem, in the way he turned into a Church, in a Village called Anablatha, to Pray: And seeing there a piece of hanging before the door of the Church, painted, and having the Image of Christ in it, or some Saint, (for afterwards, in his Letter to John Bishop of Jerusalem, he saith, That he did not well remember whose Picture it was) he cut the hanging and Picture into pieces, and wished the Keeper of the Church to wrap some dead Body in it, and bury it: When some of the Village standing by, expostulated with him for the Fact, and said, That however he should buy another piece of hanging before the door; he promised to do so, and sent it afterwards to the Bishop of Jerusalem, to be put up instead of the other. Now in this Letter to the Bishop, who had Jurisdiction in that place, he gives a reason of his action: 
a Hierom. Tom 2. Epist. Epiphan. ad Jeannem Episc. Hiros. cum vidissem in Ecclesia Christi contra Script. Autorit. hominis, etc.  When I saw in the Church of Christ, against the Authority of Holy Scripture, the Image of a Man set up, I cut it in pieces. And in the close of his Letter, he adviseth the Bishop, to command, That such hang should not be admitted into the Church, which are against our Religion, that so he might take away all scandal, and scruple, etc.  Phil. 
Many Answers you will find given to this memorable Passage.  Theoph. 
Yes, it hath troubled all your Doctors; and they mightily labour to undermine the Testimony: but if you have any thing considerable to say, let us hear it.  Phil. 

b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Damascen answers thus, That which is rare and single, gives no Law to the Church, and one Swallow makes no Summer; nor is one Man's judgement able to overthrow the Tradition of the Catholic Church thro-out the World: Where you may take notice, how he declares the Tradition of the Church thro-out the World for Images.  Theoph. 
Damascen was a great Proctor for Image worship; for which Zeal, Leo Isaurus put out his Eyes; and we shall hereafter try how his Catholic Tradition can be made good. However, you find he acknowledgeth the Fact of Epiphanius, who was a Learned Orthodox Bishop of the Primitive Church; and his Zeal was so great against Pictures in Churches, That in another's Diocese he took upon him to reform.  Phil. 
Some conceive it was no Picture of Christ, or any Saint, but of an Heathen, for Epiphanius speaks doubtfully; a Picture, 
* Quasi Christi, aut Sancti cujusdam.  as suppose of Christ or some Saint.  Theoph. 
You catch at every Reed in a sinking cause. Epiphanius, in his Letter to the Bishop of Jerusalem, saith, He had forgot whose Picture it was; but it may be of Christ, or some other Saint: which he could not say, had it been the Image of some profane Person, and that had been the reason of his zeal and indignation against the Picture.  Phil. 
Many others, with Bellarmin, suspect this relation to be added to Epiphanius his Epistle in the close (for there it is a Postscript) by some ill affected to Images; and urge Reasons, first, out of the second Council of Nice, the sixth Session, where Epiphanius a Deacon and Representative, or Vicar of the Archbishop of Sardinia, in that Council undertakes to answer and confute the Definition of the Council of Constantinople against Images; and shows, that other Passages were falsely entitled to Epiphanius, even an whole Book against Images. That Epiphanius, in his 80 Heresies which he published, includes not the Heresy of making and worshipping Images; which doubtless he would have done, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  if he had thought it contrary to the rule of Christ. That Epiphanius his Disciples, after his decease, erected a Temple in honour to him, and set up his Image therein; which they would not have done, had they known his judgement to be against Images.  Theoph. 
This is the usual knack, to suspect what doth not please; but most of your Doctors acknowledge the Fact, as you have heard of Damascen; and Alphonsus de Castro reckons Epiphanius among the Image-breakers. As for the Deacons asserting many passages of Epiphanius to be suppositious, we have no reason to take his word, unless his Reasons carry it, and they are too weak to bear the burden of his charge; for Epiphanius, in 79th Heresy, doth expressly speak against the Image of the Virgin Mary, as against her worship. And in truth, he speaks against Images in general: 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, &c  The Devil creeping into the minds of Men, under a righteous pretence, sets before their eyes the Image of Men, whom being dead, they worship; and their Images had never life, and yet are worshipped likewise by adulterate minds, withdrawn from the one-only true God. If the Story be true, that Epiphanius his Disciples did set up his Image in a Temple, which they built and dedicated to his honour; we answer, It is no new thing for Disciples to swerve from their Master's Principles and Practice: The Deacons Arguments therefore do not prove this, and the other passages of Epiphanius against Images to be forged.  Phil. 
Bellarmin hath one or two Observations more, to make this passage of Epiphanius suspected of cutting the Picture: Because, saith he, the Adversaries of Images do not mention it.  Theoph. 
I suppose he means the Bishops in the Constantinople Council against Images: Now they having cited other passages against Images out of Epipharius, 
a Con●. Nic. 2. Act. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  declare expressly, That they had not brought all his Testimonies, but left them to the diligent inquiry of the Learned.  Phil. 
Bellarmin citys 
b Epistolarum l. 9 Epistola nona. Nullum Episcoporumante Serenum fregisse Imag. Christi aut Sanctorum.  Gregory the Great, asserting, That Serenus was the first Bishop who broke the Images of Christ and the Saints: and therefore Epiphanius did not so before him.  Theoph. 
The Pope was not Infallible, and perhaps might not read this passage of Epiphanius. As this Orthodox Bishop shown his zeal against Pictures, so about the same time a pious Emperor, Theodosius, by an Edict, did forbid even the Image of Christ, 
c Petrus Crinitus, de honestâ disciplinâ, lib. 9 cap. 9 Cum sit nobis cura dillgens in rebus omnibus supremi numinis religionem tueri, signum salvatoris nostri Christi nemini concedimus pingere, sed quodcunque reperitur tolli jubemus.  Having a studious care in all things to descend the Religion of the most high God, we permit none to carve or paint any Image of our Saviour Christ in colours, stone, or any other matter, and command such Pictures to be taken away wheresoever they are found, resolving severely to punish all such as do contrary to our command. And so we are led unto another Instance of Serenus Bishop of Marseils, who broke down all the Images and Pictures in Churches thro-out his Diocese, about the year 600. when Gregory the Great was Pope; who writes an Epistle to Serenus, reprehending the Fact, as proceeding from inconsiderate zeal: 
d Epistolarum l. 9 Epist. nona. Quid inconsiderato zelo succensus Sanctorum Imagines confregeris.  And whereas the Bishop made his Plea, That he removed them out of Churches, and broke the Images, because the People were prone to worship them: That he forbidden the worship of them, the Pope approves, for it is written, saith he, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. And at length he gives this advice, 
e Si quis Imag. facere voluerit, minime probibe, etc.  If any desires to make, or to have an Image, forbidden him not: But by all means take care that no man worship them.  Phil. 
This Testimony of Gregory, approves the Images of the Saints for History and Ornament, although he forbids the worship of them; and we are not yet come to that point. Your Instances from the Eliberitan Canon from Epiphanius and Serenus, are against the Images themselves, not their worship.  Theoph. 
Those Holy Bishops were offended with Pictures in Churches, because they might be occasion of Idolatry, the People inclining to give Religious worship to them; as Serenus made his Plea.  Phil. 
Notwithstanding such panic fears, you know, as Bellarmin shows, God placed the Cherubins in the Ark.  Theoph. 
In the inward Tabernacle, over the Mercy-seat, where they were not exposed to public view.  Phil. 

a Lib. de Pudicitia, c. 7. 10. Procedant ipsae Picturae Calicum vestrarum. Ib. Pa●tor quem in Calais depingis.  Tertullian shows, they had Pictures in the Church early: Let the Pictures, saith he, engraven in your Chalices be produced. Again, The good Shepherd whom you Picture in your Chalice. He relates to the good Shepherd, bringing back the lost Sheep upon his shoulders, which Parable was engraven upon the Eucharistical Cup.  Theoph. 
These are pitiful proofs for Images in Churches, and their Worship, a Parable engraven upon a Goblet, not visible, at any distance, unto the People, so as to become the object of Adoration.  Phil. 
There is an account given by Nicephorus, Simeon Metaphrastes, and others, how our Blessed Saviour sent the Picture of his Face in a Linen cloth, to Agabarus' King of Edessa; who, hearing of our Saviour and his Miracles, sent a Painter to take his Picture; but his Eyes were dazzled with the Glory of our Saviors Countenance, and his Art failed him: Whereupon, our Saviour calls for a Napkin, and wiped his Face, and left his Picture therein, to be conveyed to the King; and thereby Miracles were wrought.  Theoph. 
We may conclude this to be a Fable, as from the Fabulous Authors: so likewise, because 
b Euseb. l. 1. Hist. Ecclesiast. Prope finem.  Eusebius makes no mention thereof; and yet gives an account, how this King of Edessa did send a Letter to our Saviour, entreating him to come and heal him of his Disease: and that our Saviour returned an Answer.  Phil. 
But the same Eusebius, lib. 7. c. 18. speaking of the City Paneas of Caesarea Philippi, mentions a report, That the Woman of the Gospel who was cured of her Bloody Issue, was honourable and rich in that City; and in memory of that Cure, caused her own Image to be made in Brass, kneeling towards another Statue of a Man in Brass, stretching forth his hand to touch her: And at the pedestal of the Statue there did spring up an Herb, which arising unto the hem of the Coat engraven, had virtue to heal Diseases; and this Image was, by all the Inhabitants, reported to be the Statue of Christ. And Eusebius gives credit to the Relation, showing, it was the Custom of the Heathen People, to honour with Statues those whom they accounted Saviors: and tells us, himself had seen the Pictures of Christ, and of Peter, and Paul.  Theoph. 
You may observe, he saith, It was the custom of the Heathen to honour so their Benefactors: and therefore Christians derive this practice from the Heathen.  Phil. 
But Divine Providence hath set his Seal unto it, in those miraculous Cures which the Herb wrought, that grew at the foot of Christ's Statue. And Sozomen relates farther, lib. 5. c. 20. That the Apostate Julian in scorn took down this Statue, and in the place set up his own, which was struck with Lightning from Heaven, and broke into many pieces.  Theoph. 
These things came to pass by a special Providence; not to justify the making of Christ's Statue, but in the sight of the Heathen to attest the Truth of those great Things, which Fame had delivered of Christ whom they knew that Statue represented: And to vindicate that Affront the Apostate Julian designed to put upon our Saviour.  Phil. 
We find, they had the Pictures of Christ and the Apostles very frequent in St Augustins time: For some Enemies of the Gospel entitled Magic Books unto our Saviour, as by him written to his principal Disciples, Peter and Paul. Now Augustin observes, how Paul was no Disciple of Christ in the days of his Flesh, and so the Imposture was easily discovered: But because, saith he, they had often seen the Picture of Christ, and of these two chief Apostles drawn together, they concluded them to have been his most beloved Disciples, and so were induced to bring in Christ as communicating his Secrets and Mysteries of the Art of Magic to them.  Theoph. 
Bellarmin should have given you St Augustins observation upon this passage: 
a Lib. 1. c. 10. De cons. Evangelist. sic omnino errare meruerunt qui Christum & Apostolos non in Sacris Codicibus, etc.  So altogether they deserved to be mistaken and err, who look upon Christ and his Apostles on painted Walls, and not in the Holy Scriptures; and it is no wonder to see such as are Forgers to be deceived by Painters.  Phil. 
The second Council of Nice, as Bellarmin shows, brings many other Testimonies of the Fathers occasionally in their Books, making mention of the Pictures of Christ, and of the Saints usual in their times.  Theoph. 
In the series of Discourse you have led us unto that Council, and I shall choose to accept your Appeal, and thither we will go. But first, I will prepare the way, and let you know, That we do not declare against Images in themselves, but as they are occasions of Superstitious Worship. Men prise ancient Pieces, representing Famous Men: Suppose Julius Caesar, or Tully, or the Ancestors of their Family; and much more should we value Pictures of Holy Men and Women, or of our Blessed Saviour: But you must then show they be true Resemblances and Copies, of their Countenance, Pictures very like them whom they represent; whereas now in the Images of the Saints there is no regard had to their likeness, but only to set up an Image that shall signify, and not represent. An old Man with a Sword, stands for Paul; with Keys, for Peter; with a Cross decussat, for Andrew: so in our Saviors Pictures you shall observe as many Forms as there are Faces or Fancies of Men. If a Painter, designing to draw our Lady's Picture, should take a Beautiful Courtesan for his pattern, it would serve. Now such Pictures, which have no likeness to the persons represented, deserve no regard, neither are they useful for Commemoration. Should any one send you your Grandfather's Picture, much unlike him, and drawn at all adventures, you would not honour it so much, as to hang it up in your Hall or Parlour. But you and I both have been led out of the way, by those who writ upon this subject of Images; instancing in some who have altogether rejected them, and in others who have approved them, whereas our chief Design is, to show the unlawfulness of Image Worship, to allow no other use of Pictures, then to put us in mind either of Things or Persons, or for ornament of places: If you are content herewith, the dispute shall end between us, always excepting against any Image of God, whether Historical or Analogical, or by what term soever you may distinguish.  Phil. 
If you see the Picture of Christ, will you not worship him?  Theoph. 
When by occasion of his PIcture I am put in mind of my Saviour, my heart must honour and worship him, as at any other time when I apply myself unto him in Meditation, without a Picture to help the memory: But we allow no Worship or Adoration due unto the Image itself, putting us in mind of our Saviour: you have high reason to yield all civil honour and obeisance to your Prinoe; but will you bow the Knee, or put of your Hat unto his Image in your Coin, or to his Picture in your Closet?  Phil. 
Let me ask you also one Question: If any should stab the Image of the King, or of your Ancestors, and show great indignation against them, would you not be higtly offended?  Theoph. 
If the Circumstances declare that he did it out of despite and malice to the person represented by the Picture, there is reason to take it as an high affront.  Phil. 
By insensible degrees, I shall bring you to acknowledge as much as we desire: If you should see any Man give honour and respect unto the Prince's Picture for his sake, would you not approve it?  Theoph. 
Yes, giving such regard as a pious Prince expects from us; not to put a studied affront upon it; not to set it up in a contemptible place: we likewise show a dutiful affection in highly valuing the Picture that resembles the King.  Phil. 
Why should you except against honour and respect given to an Image of your Saviour, or of his blessed Mother and the Saints?  Theoph. 
We do not; set aside the Religious Worship of an Image which may lawfully be made; and we will not except against any respect you will give to it, for his sake whom it represents: you must prove it lawful to worship Images.  Phil. 
To a Prince civil Worship and Honour is due; and so much you give likewise to his Picture: by the same rule, seeing unto Christ as Man, in union with the Divine Nature, is due Religious Worship and Adoration, you must give Religious Worship to his Image.  Theoph. 
We never said, the same honour is due to the Picture of a Prince, as to his Person: Do you all stand bare in the Parlour, because your Prince's Picture hangs there, or the Pictures of any of his Predecessors? And secondly, from a civil Worship given unto a Creature, to a Religious Worship given unto a Creature, there is no consequence to be drawn; and the reason is this, God hath forbid one, and not the other. Now the Pictures of Christ, and of his Cross, and of the Saints, are Creatures, even the work of men's hands, and therefore to them no Religious Worship to be given.  Phil. 
There is a received Maxim in the Church, first taken from Basil the Great, 
a Vid. Damascen. Orthod. Fid. lib. 4. c. 17. 11 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  The honour done to the Image, passeth unto him whom it represents: and therefore honouring their Images, you honour Christ and his Saints.  Theoph. 
'Tis truth, what respect is given to a Picture, is only with regard unto the thing or person represented by it, and therefore it is called relative Honour: We prise the Picture of a Friend, and much more of our Blessed Saviour, and his Saints, if they be drawn to the Life: but however, to the Picture itself, no adoration can in reason be given, and honour, because it is far inferior to the meanest Man, who is the living Image of God; and a Picture (suppose of Christ) but an inanimate Image. 
b Honour est agnitio praecell●ntis.  Now Honour is given to things more excellent: Will you say the Picture of a King excels in dignity the person of a Subject? or that a liveless Picture of our Blessed Saviour, is more honourable than a living Disciple of our Blessed Saviour?  Phil. 
Not in itself, but as it is the Image of Christ.  Theoph. 
I speak of it as his Image; and yet I do suppose, you dare not maintain, That the Picture of Christ in the consideration, as his Picture, is more to be esteemed then a Disciple of Christ: for suppose one of them were to be destroyed, Would you save the Picture, and leave the Man to perish? Again, for worshipping the Images of Saints, it may be of St Peter; Is more honour to be given to his Image now, then was to his person in the days of his Flesh? When Cornelius fell at his Feet, and worshipped him, he received it not, but said, Stand up, I myself also am a Man, Acts 10 26, instructing him, that no such worship was due to a Man.  Phil. 
He would not receive such adoration as was due to God.  Theoph. 
Who told you, good Cornelius, a devout Man, intended such worship as was due to God? Dare you say Cornelius in that act committed I dolatry, giving the worship due only to God, unto his Servant Peter? he only designed to give to him such high expressions of Honour and Worship, as to a Saint and Servant of God upon Earth; and yet Peter would not accept of it, and intimates, because he was a Man he ought not. So we read, St John fell down to Worship before the Feet of the Angel. and the Angel said, See thou do it not, for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy Brethren the Prophets, and of them which keep the say of this Book: worship God. Now it is to be conceived, John designed not to commit Idolarry, and give Divine Worship to the Angel, but only some inferior Religious Worship, as your Doctors use to speak; and yet the Angel would not receive it, being jealous of his Creator's Honour, and directs the Apostle to worship God. Now if we must not worship Saints in their own Persons, much less in their Images: If Angels will not accept worship from us, neither will the Saints Triumphant; both instruct us to worship God, and not them, although we should intent to give them only inferior worship.  Phil. 
The second Council of Nice, being the seventh Ecumenical Council, hath well stated this Point, and established the Worship proper to God, called Latria, to be incommunicable to a Creature. But a second sort of inferior Worship and Adoration, they determine must be given to the Images of Christ and the Saints.  Theoph. 
I wish they had first satisfied you or me, why they should determine inferior Worship and Adoration to be given to the Saints in Heaven, and to their Images on Earth, seeing the Angel expressly forbids it, and directs us only to worship God: But seeing you have appealed to that Council of Nice, thither we will go, as being indeed the first Foundation of Image worship; and if you please, I will give you a preliminary account and history of that Council.  Phil. 
I pray do so: for it will suit with our present Discourse, and show the rashness of those Enemies of Christ and his Saints, who broke down their Images, and cast them out of Churches, as Heathen Idols, unto the Dunghill; whilst the holy Popes of Rome successively wrote Epistles, and sent Legates, and gave warning to the Emperors, whose Zeal without knowledge, gave countenance and authority to such Sacrilegious Outrages.  Theoph. 
About the year of Christ, 720. Leo Isaurus, the 69th Emperor of Rome from Augustus, observing the growth of Superstition and Idolatry among the vulgar sort of People, in worshipping the Images of our Blessed Saviour, and the Virgin Mary, and the Saints, which were erected in their Temples and in the Streets; he took a severe course, and broke down the Images, and commanded all that had such Images and Pictures, under great penalties, to bring them forth, and burned them in the Marketplace. He sent likewise to Gregory the second, Pope of Rome, to desire his concurrence for a General Council of the Eastern and Western Bishops, about this work of Reformation: and in a sacred Epistle to the Pope, he urged Arguments to justify his course in taking away Images. Whereunto the Pope returns an Answer, 
a Bin. Edit. Concil. Tom. 5. pag. 501. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That whereas he had received frem him many sacred Letters, within the first ten years of his Reign, full of Piety and Wisdom; together with an Orthodox Confession of his Faith, denouncing a Curse upon those that should remove the Boundaries of Religion which the Fathers had set: and for this cause, he tells the Emperor, That he had given ample Thanks to God for committing the Empire of the World unto so noble a Prince. But now alas! from his Epistle, and from his practice, he sadly perceived how he was taken from the Truth, and had given great scandal to the World. And so he sets himself to give satisfaction unto some Particulars which the Emperor had mentioned in his Letter; telling him beforehand, That he would write to him dull and illiterate Things, because thou thyself (saith he) art such. And in truth, the Pope is as good as his word; for his Letter which he writes to the Emperor, is blunt and desultory, without any reason or consequence, or good manners. He saith, That God did forbid Graven Images, such as the Canaanites made and worshipped; but he commanded Moses to make two Cherubins, a Table and an Ark; and these were similitudes made with hands for the glory of God. He tells him, That Moses prayed and desired to see an Image of God, that he might not err; and the Lord answered, That he could not see his face and live, but his back parts he should see: but under the Gospel he hath showed himself back and face. That the Truth is made visible, and Christ hath appeared and dwel'd among us, and where the carcase was, that is, Christ in the Body, thither the Eagles came: True Believers resorted to him, and took his Picture, and the Pictures of James the Brother of the Lord, and of Stephen the first Martyr; and so of all the Martyrs, and forsaking the worship of Idols, the whole World did worship these Images: not with the worship due only to God, but relatively; a Distinction formed to puzzle, not to inform. After this, he tells him, how our Blessed Saviour sent a Copy of his Countenance in a Napkin to the King of Edessa. 'Tis truth, saith he, we do not Picture God, because we know him not; but if we had beheld him, as we do his Son, we would have made his Picture also, and try whether you would call it an Idol. The love of Christ knows, saith he. That when I go into the Temple of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and look upon his Image, I am brought to compunction; and as Rain out of the Clouds, so do my Tears flow down. Then he tells the Emperor, how Christ restored sight to the blind; but you put out the Eyes of the People by removing Images. You say, we worship Stones and Tables: not so, but our memories must be rubbed up, and our dull, and foolish, and illiterate mind raised. When we see the Picture of Christ, we say, Thou Son of God, save us: so when we see the Picture of the Holy Mother, we say, O holy Mother of God, Mother of the Lord, mediate unto thy Son to save our Souls: and so to the other Saints and Martyrs. He bids the Emperor go into the Grammar-Schools, and tell the Boys, I am he 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  
b Epist. 1. Greg. secund. ad Leonem Isaurum, Bin. Tom. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  who persecute and pull down Images, and see saith he, whether they will not hurl their Books at thy head. When the Emperor reflected upon that passage of Hezekiah, breaking in pieces the Brazen Serpent, because the People did burn Incense to it, 2 Kings 18. 4. How do you think he answers it?  Phil. 
I must confess, it was very apposite to his purpose, who pleaded the People's Superstition in worshipping Images, as the cause of his removing them: and therefore I desire to hear what satisfaction his Holiness the Pope gave unto that Objection.  Theoph. 
He tells the Emperor, 
a Ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Verily Ozias was thy Brother of like persuasions as thyself, and he played the Tyrant among his People as thou dost. Where you also observe, how the Pope was so ignorant of the Holy Scriptures, that he ascribes that memorable passage of breaking the Brazen Serpent, to Vzziah, and not to Hezekiah the King: and in resembling the Emperor to Hezekiah, in the fact of breaking Images, he by a necessary consequence approves the one, as the Holy Ghost in Scripture doth the other, for his zeal for Reformation, and Gods Honor.  Phil. 
I did not expect such a precipitate Answer to so considerable an Argument.  Theoph. 
Give me leave to proceed: He tells the Emperor, and calls Christ to witness, How mightily affected he was with sight of the glorious Images, and Historical Pictures of the Holy Scriptures in the Churches; and that it had been much better if the Emperor had been an Heretic (denying some fundamental Truth of the Gospel) than a Persecuter of Images: And gives his Reason, Because Heretics erred through ignorance, and about things hard to be understood, whereas thou errest in such things as are as clear as the Sun, and therefore their Condemnation is not so great as thine. It appears in his Sacred Epistle, that the Emperor did write to the Pope concerning a General Council to determine the Controversy concerning Images.  Phil. 
That was the most likely way to settle the Truth, and the minds of Men.  Theoph. 
But the Pope answers, No: You did write to me for a General Council, but it seems to me unprofitable.  Phil. 
I pray what reason did he give of his denial.  Theoph. 
He tells the Emperor, He consults his Honour, and that it were better for him not to have his crimepublished: he was a desircier of Images, if he would give over and be quiet, the scandal would be taken away, and there would be no need of a Council. He calls God to witness, how he had communicated the Emperor's former sacred Epistles to the Princes of the West, and had much commended him for his Piety; and they all had him in great Honour: but as soon as they heard of this Fact of Image-breaking, they trampled his Laurels under foot, and invaded some of his Territories in the West; had seized upon Ravenna, and threatened Rome itself, the Emperor being unable to protect them: 
a Ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  and all this through his own folly. Nay, saith he, you threaten to fend to Rome, and break down the Image of St. Peter, and carry away the Pope in Bonds: but if you thus look big and threaten, I will not contend, but I will remove myself but 25 miles, and then I shall be out of your reach, and you may go and persecute the winds.  Phil. 
'Tis much he had the courage to write so boldly to the Emperor, who had Dominions and Forces near in Italy.  Theoph. 
The subtle Pope knew his own strength: The Lombard's kept their Interest in Campania, and other parts of Italy, in despite of the Emperor's Forces; and although they were many times very troublesome Neighbours to Rome, yet thither, upon case of necessity, he would fly. After the same manner he writes a second Letter unto the Emperor, among other things telling him: Although thou dost persecute us with a Military hand of Flesh, yet we being destitute of carnal Weapons, do invoke the chief Captain of the Creation, Christ, sitting in the Heavens over all Power and Dominion, to send the Devil into thee, as the Apostle speaks, To give such an one unto Satan: and afterwards, he thundered out against him the Bull of Excommunication. And whereas the Emperor had demanded how it came to pass, That none of the six general Councils had Decreed any thing for the worship of Images, etc. what Answer, think you, gave the Pope to that demand?  Phil. 
I cannot guests; but it was a material Proposal.  Theoph. 
He answers it thus, True, O King! neither did any of those Councils make Decrees of eating Bread, and drinking Water, intimating, That it was as evidently necessary to worship Images, as to eat and drink, and therefore no matter for a Canon of a general Council. And withal he tells him, That the Patriarches and Bishops carried Images before them, when they went into the Council; and none that did love Jesus Christ, would take a Journey without some Images of the Saints, as their Fellow-Travellers. Now these things, and many others, are urged by him without any offer of proof; and being not in his Pontifical Chair, it seems he was not infallible: neither was it likely such blind Stories, and fond Assertions, and foolish Letters, should prevail with a Prince of great Power and Reason; and therefore he continued his course of preventing Idolatry, by taking Images and Pictures out of the way, and so he had the Surname given him of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, one that did make war against Images. His Son Consiantin follows him in the same severity, and the Monckish Historians of that time, had a nickname also for him, Constantinus Copronymus: Because, say they, when being an Infant he was Baptised, he defiled the Sacred Font with his dung; and so gave an Omen of his future contemt and villainies against the Saints and the Church. But that was not the reason of the Appellative and Name, but rather because he much delighted in the smell of Horse-dung; the compound name being derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifies dung, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is Interpreted, I am pleased; whereas perhaps the dull Monks thought it was derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifies, a Name. Now because they had in vain sought the concurrence of the Pope and the Western Bishops, in a general Council, Constantinus the Emperor summons a Council at Constantinople, Anno 754. where 318. Bishops assembled, and declared against Images and their worship, and styled themselves, 
a Sancta magna unversalis Synedus, etc.  The holy and great general Council of Constantinople, But we have no Record of the Actions of this Council, otherwise than we find the definition thereof mangled and confuted by parcels, in the Council of Nice succeeding. This being the unjust and partial dealing of the Roman Faction, through whose hands (since the desolation of the Eastern Church by the Turks) all Church History is transmitted, to deliver nothing to Posterity (as far as possibly they can stifle it) which makes against them. After Constantine, did succeed Leo his Son in the Empire, who Reigned five years, and left his Son Constantine, being ten years old, together with his Mother Irene, to rule the Empire. Anno 773. the Monkish Writers of those times highly extol the Queen, 
b Hierene piissima una cum Const. glorioso divinitus cepit Imperium. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  styling her, Most Pious, because Pope Adrian, by his Instruments, brought her over to restore Images; and then the Pope promotes a general Council, which was first summoned at Constantinople, but by reason of Tumults, (the People of Constantinople making Insurrection against the Council, which should restore Image-worship) it was prorogued for a year, and afterwards translated to Nice: whether the Pope sends his Legates, and all is carried as he would. Now here you may observe a Scene of Popish subtlety: When the Emperor Leo Isaurus did not concur in Judgement with Gregory the second, although a Council was desired. yet the Pope would not consent, because he well knew, that the Countenance and Authority of the Emperor, would carry all things against the Pope's Judgement. But when Irene the Empress, together with her Son Constantine, were made for the interest of the Pope and for Images, Then Adrian mightily promotes the Council, condemns the former general Council of Constantinople, which Decreed against Images, as a mere Heretical Conventicle, and sets up this at Nice in its stead. And he laid his design sure enough: for in the entrance of the Council he writes by his Legates, both to the Emperor, and to Tarasius the Patriarch of Constantinople That ᶜ he was made Patriarch against the Canons of the Church of Christ, as being immediately taken from a Courtier, and a Layman, to the See of Constantinople; but because he was satisfied of his zeal for Images, therefore he would not except against his Consecration. And in the close of his Epistle to Tarasius, he tells him plainly, If the Emperor and the Council shall not restore Images, I cannot by any means admit of your Consecration. And this Patriarch, in truth, was fit for the Pope's turn, being liable to the exception you have heard, and not learned, he would be ruled by the Pope's Legates, and some busy Monks in the Council, the sooner; and withal, many of the Bishops of Asia and Greece had been guilty of voting against Images in the former Council of Constantinople; and none of them must be admitted into this Council, but such as would submit, acknowledging their Error, and begging pardon, and declaring strenuously against what they had established; and condemning the Council against Images unto the pit of Hell. And with these preparations you may easily judge, what would be the issue of the second Council of Nice, the first that ever declared for Images and their worship.  Phil. 
These are your politic preliminary Observations, if possible, to blast the reputation of the general Council: But have you any thing to except against the Council itself? although indeed general Councils should not be liable unto the insolent Exceptions of private Men.  Theoph. 
Hear and judge. In the first Session or Action of that Council, divers ancient Bishops are brought in as Criminals, for declaring against Images in the former Council; and they acknowledge themselves miserable sinners, saying, 
a Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We have sinned and done wickedly, and have transgressed the Commandment, and we beg pardon. One of those Bishops, Theodosius Bishop of Ammonium, makes an Apostrophe to the Saints in Heaven, saying, I have sinned against Heaven, and against you, I beseech you to receive me, as God received the Prodigal, the Harlot, and the Thief. Then he pronounceth anathemas against all those who do not diligently teach the People that love God, to adore the sacred venerable Images of all the Saints that have pleased God since the Creation. All the criminal Bishops acknowledge worshipping of Images to be an Apostolical Tradition, and that they had no manner of excuse to plead for themselves in what they had formerly done, but all was through ignorance and foolishness.  Phil. 
This strange palinody and recognition of their former Errors, shows, they were not Men of Conscience and Judgement, that voted against Images in the former Council.  Theoph. 
It manifests rather the Tyranny of this Council, who would admit them to reconciliation upon no other terms. One John, a Monk, Representative and Vicar of the Oriental Bishops (who by reason of the Saracens possessing their Country, durst not come to the Council) declares publicly, That this Heresy was greater than any other Heresy whatsoever: Woe to those who fight against Images! And when they entered into Consultation about the degree and heinousness of this Crime, Tarasius the Patriarch answers wisely, It is all one in matters of Doctrine, whether you offend in great or small; for by either the Law of God is abrogated. And so they examined former Canons of receiving Heretics, whether Arrians, or Nestorians, or Macedonians; and in like manner determined of these Bishops, as highly guilty and criminal, as the worst of all Heretics. Insomuch, That Basilius, Bishop of Ancyra, declares in the Council, being one of those Criminals, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  I do from my heart and soul anathematise that Council of Constantinople against Images, as being assembled out of mere folly and madness. Another of them denounceth an Anathema against all such who were of doubtful mind, and did not from their Soul confess that Images were to be worshipped. This was fair for the first Scene and Action of that famous Council. In the second Action, Pope Adrian's Letter to the Emperor, and to the Patriarch Tarasius, are published and approved by the particular Testimony of every Bishop. In his Epistle to the Emperor Constantine, and Irene his Mother, he congratulates their embracing the Faith of the chiefest Apostles, Peter and Paul, promising That these Saints shall be the Protectors of their Imperial Glory and Majesty, and bring the barbarous Nations under their feet. He brings in a Fable of Constantine the first Christian Emperor, how in a dream he saw Peter and Paul come to him, and directing him to send for Sylvester, Pope of Rome, (who lived in Banishment upon the Mountain Soracle, flying from the Persecution of Constantine; and that good Pope should guide him to a Pool, wherein he might wash and be healed of his Leprosy: whereupon Constantine awaking, sends some of his Officers to the Pope, who alas! thought of nothing, but that by these Messengers he was called forth to suffer Martyrdom. But the Emperor when he came, entertained him with great courtesy, acquainted him with his Dream, and asked who those Gods were, Peter and Paul, which appeared to him. Sylvesier answered, That they were Servants of the most high God, great Instruments of the World's Conversion to Christ. The Emperor demanded, whether he had their Pictures, that he might know them; and a Deacon is presently dispatched to fetch their Pictures: and as soon as Constantine saw them, he cryed●out, These are the Men I saw in my dream; and so he was Baptised by Sylvester, and cleansed of his Leprosy. Now it is strange, That a Pope should write such a Fable, and that a whole Council should believe it, against the Evidence of all History. For Constantine never persecuted Christians, never had a Leprosy; was not Baptised by Sylvester at Rome, but by Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedia: for the Emperor designed to be Baptised in Jordan, where our Saviour received the Baptism of John, and in his Journey towards Palestine, fell sick at Nicomedia, and was Baptised by the Bishop of the place. This, when need requires, shall be made good, by many authentic Testimonies: and withal, it is most certain, That Constantine was a sound Christian, and Defender of the Faith, in Miltiades his Popedom, who was Predecessor in the See of Rome to Sylvester. It appears, he committed that endless Controversy between the Catholics and the Donatists, concerning Cecilianus Bishop of Alexandria, unto the hearing of Miltiades; and how he should be a Persecutor of the Church in Sylvesiers Popedom, is a Riddle. I must confess, Baronius would resolve it: He tells us, That after Constantine was Christian, he sell away, and committed great Cruelties, and persecuted the Church, insomuch, that Sylvester fled to Soracle; and that God smote him with a Leprosy. And so the Story of his Dream forementioned, proceeded. But this is an horrible Forgery, purposely designed to maintain Constantine's Baptism at Rome, and that large donation to the Church Territories in Italy, which they pretend to hold from the great Charter of Constantine. But we have read, That Julian was an Apostate; but never before, that Constantine was so: And withal, the Fable confures itself; for if Constantine was a good Christian, as all confess, in Miltiades days, how comes it to pass, that in Sylvesters time the Emperor had never heard of Peter and Paul, who appeared in a Dream to him, but asked the Pope, What Gods they were? It seems he had drunk of the River Lethe, or rather that great Annalist was drunk with the Cup of Rome's Fornications, so as to forget the Truth, and vent, in this particular, nothing but Imposture; against the rule of Piety, and Charity, and common Gratitude, to stigmatize the first great Champion of Christian Religion, who brought Peace and Tranquillity to the Catholic Church, with the Brand of Apostasy and Persecution of the Saints: What will not a Cardinal say, for the advantage of the Court of Rome? I have been, in the Series of this Discourse, reduced to a necessity of this digression. But I return, Hadrian, after many impertinent Passages in his Epistle to the Emperor, he urges the threadbare Argument of Moses, being by God himself commanded to make two Cherubins, and the Brazen Serpent: And he most 
a Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Logically infers, If the looking upon a Brazen Serpent could heal the Israelites, much more shall such as behold and worship the Pictures of Christ and of the Saints, be saved. Whereas he should have taken notice, how the Serpent was erected by God's especial command, and endowed with such an healing virtue, whereas they can produce no such command to worship Images, or any promise of Salvation by looking upon them. He citys from Jerome one strange passage, but refers to no place, and I presume, it is not where to be found: It is this, That as God permitted the Gentiles to adore things made with hands, and was well pleased with the Israelites, who did adore the two Tables which Moses hewed out, and the two golden Cherubins; so unto us Christians, he hath given the Cross, and the History, and Images of good Works, to picture and adore them. Now such Forgeries and Fooleries passed for Gospel among the Bishops of that Council, who never examined any thing that was said, if it had any tendence unto their great design to establish the worship of Images. Only there is one memorable passage in his Epistle, which if well observed by all, might help to end the Controversy for ask the Question: What honour of worship do we give to the Images of Christ and the Saints? He Answers, Such as we sinners give to one another in love and honour. We would not much contend about this civil respect, if they had not trained the People to give Religious Worship and Adoration to Images; although (as some will have it) of an inferior degree to that Worship we give to God. The third Action of that Council, consists in hearing and approving some Synodical Epistles, and contains nothing of moment to our present business. In the fourth Action, they bring the Testimony of Holy Scripture for Images: That the Lord commanded Moses to make two Cherubins, etc. And then some passages of Fathers, who spoke of Images which they beheld, and were much affected with them: they bring in divers Legends of Miracles effected by Images. I will, for brevity sake, give an account of one for all. Peter, Bishop of Nicomedia, brings out a Book of the Passion of Christ, ascribed falsely to Athanasius the Great; out of the Book he reads this Story. In the City Berytus, in Syria, dwelled many of the Jews; and near unto their Synagogue, a Christian hired an House, and dwelled some time in it; and over against his Bed he set up, at full length, the Picture of our Saviour, drawn in a Table: when he changed his dwelling, and took another House, it fortuned that he forgot to take away the picture, with his other goods, but left it in the Chamber. A Jew succeeding in the House for some time, never discovered the Picture, until another Jew being invited to dine with him, cast his eye upon it, and immediately expostulated with his Friend for keeping in his House the Picture of Christ, and began to curse our Saviour: but leaving the House, be goes to the High Priest, and the Council of the Jews, and accuseth his Neighbour for harboring this Image: They take company with them, and came to the Jews House, and find this Picture, and immediately cast him out of the Synagogue. Then they spit it on the Face, and conclude to act over again all the Indignities upon the Picture, which their impious Forefathers had upon the Person of Christ; they pierce the Hands and Feet with Nails, put gall to his Lips, and smite the Head with a reed At last, they said, We have heard that our Forefathers did pierce his side with a spear, and let not us omit that considerable able Circumstance: forthwith, one fetching a spear, pierced the side, and immediately issued out a seream of Blood and Water: at which sight, they were all amazed and terrified; but recollecting themselves, they said, We have heard Christians boast of many Miracles of their Saviour, Let us make the Experiment, and send for the lame and blind, and among the rest, for one who was a paralytic from the womb; and lo, all of them, being anointed with the Blood, were ●ealed; and such as were possessed with the Devil among them. By this Miracle, the Jews of the City, Princes and People, were converted to the Faith of Christ, and came to the Bishop of the place, professing their Faith, and desiring Baptism, and their Synagogue was consecrated into a Temple of the Lord, and great joy was over all the City. Now this Legend was received in the Council with great acclamation, and glory was given to God who had brought to pass such mighty things for the Conversion of the Jews, and for the confirmation of the Saints in Image-worship. But Tarasius the Patriarch put to the Council a seasonable Question: How cometh it to pass that our Images do no such Miracles? and he Answers, Because Miracles are signs to Unbelievers, and not to Christians: and yet to see the luck of it, this very Miracle is at length brought home to their own Times. Bellarmin acknowledgeth the Book of Christ's Passion, out of which they did take the Story, was wrongfully ascribed to Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, the great Champion of the Faith against Arius. And so doth Baronius, and gives his reason; for in the space of 400 Years between that Athanasius and this Council of Nice, some notice would have been taken of this notable Miracle, which yet was never heard of, but in that Book. And withal, 
a Baron. Tom. 9 Anno 738. numero 31.  Baronius tells us, That in the Roman Martyrology, or Calendar, there is appointed an Holiday to be kept in commemoration of this Miracle, upon the fifth of the Ideses of September, and that the relation thereof was devoutly read in the Churches; and recorded to have happened in the Reign of Constantine and Irene, the punctual time when the Council was assembled. And thus you see, when they are brought to the Touchstone, Fables and Legends will appear what they are, counterfeit Coin; and such as relate them, their Testimonies will not agree: and yet the Council easily swallowed this, and many other Cheats and Impostures, serving to erect their Images with their worship. Baronius gives us one Note more upon the Passage, That the effusion of Blood from the Picture was so great, that many Viols were filled therewith, and sent to the Churches of Christ, East and West, to be kept as Sacred Relies. Now any one, that had his Wits about him, might easily conceive the Story did confute itself: For it is not probable, the Christian, removing Householdstuff, should leave behind him unregarded and undiscovered the Picture of Christ at full length; and that the Jew succeeding, likewise should not see it, until his Neighbour comes into the discovery. In the fifth Action of this Council, they bring in many other Stories and Fables, whereof the Reader may give himself an account in reading the History of that Council, given by Binius in his 5th Tome; and there they pretend to show how the former Council of Constantinople did impose upon many of the Bishops then present, by corrupting Books and Testimonies, and forcing their Votes to concur with them; and this by the confession, forsooth, of those who had recanted, and now sat in this Council to condemn and pronounce the other Accursed. In the sixth Session they come close to the Point, and examine the definition of that Conventicle (as they are pleased to call it) against Images: but not in the usual way of Councils by debating particulars among them, but referring all to a malapert Deacon, one Epiphanius, The Representative of the Archbishop of Sardinia, and he answers every Paragraph with Exclamation and Railing, as the impartial Reader may observe. To give one Instance, the Council of Constantinople, instead of the Picture of Christ, sends us to the Holy Sacrament of the Lords Supper, in commemoration of Christ and his Passion; and calls the Eucharist Christ Image, wherein he was best represented to his Church. Here the Deacon wonderfully insults and triumphs over them, and calls this fancy of theirs, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  An extreme apoplectical Madness He declares unto all the World, That never any of the Apostles, or Fathers of the Church before them, called the Holy Sacrament an Image. Now when we shall consider, that the use of Images and Pictures is chief for representation, and that in the Sacrament Christ's death is represented, and himself commemorated, this Assertion of the former Council might have well passed without such an outrageous Censure: and yet withal, to see how confident men will soon be over-taken in their presumtions; we read in Baronius (that great Darling of the Church of Rome) an account given of one Stephanus, a Confessor and Martyr for Images, who expostulating with Leo Isaurus for his Image-breaking, 
b Bar. Tom. 9 Anno 765. num. 9 Audi corp. & sang. Christi Antitypa proscrib. ab Ecclesiâ, ut quae Imag. & veram fig. tenent, quae & adoramus, etc.  bids, him likewise if he thought good, proscribe the Antitypes of Christ's Body and Blood, which contained the true Image and Figure of Christ, and were also worshipped. That which was memorable in Stephanus, to call the Eucharist The Image of Christ, in the Council of Constantinople was abominable; so partial are Men who swerve from Truth, they have men's Persons and Arguments in admiration or contemt, merely for the advantage of their Cause: however, the insolent Deacon was no telltruth, in saying, The Council had no precedent for their Assertion, when Stephanus, one of his Martyrs for Images, had before asserted the same. Now the Council of Constantinople, which this Deacon under the Patronage of the Council of Nice fain would baffle into a Conventicle, as far as we can discern by their Definition, which their Adversaries have set forth only to be confuted (we given them thanks for it) this Council, I say, designs in the Definition, to lead Men from sensible things unto Spiritual, showing, that in this World we must walk by Faith, not by sight; and if we have known Christ after the Flesh, from henceforth to know him so no more: That Christians thoughts should not be drawn outward, and distracted with visible representations from Spiritual intendments. They quote a saying of Gregory Nazianzen, 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  It is an injury to have our Faith in colours, not in the Heart. And he adds, That Picture which is engraven in the depth of the Heart, is amiable to me: Pictures made in colours will wash away. They quote Chrysostom, saying, 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We enjoy the presence of the Saints in glory by their Writings, having the Images not of their Bodies, but of their Souls: for those things which were done by them, are the representations of their noble mind. They quote a saying of Amphilochius Bishop of jeonium, ᵉ We take no care to represent in Tables the fleshly visage of the Saints by colours, but to imitate their virtuous conversation. We 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  have no need of Pictures. They show how Eusebius Pamphilus, when Consiantia Augusta desired him to send an Image of Christ to her, dissuaded her from it: What Image, saith he, would you have? of his God-bead? that's impossible; no man hath seen God at any time: of his Manhood? We believe the humane Nature of Christ to be glorified, and mortality swallowed up in life: and how shall we express his Glorious Body with liveless colours and shadows? The Disciples being in the Mount, could not behold his transfigured Body whilst he was in the Flesh, much less can we now represent or beh●ld him after his Ascension into the highest Heavens. Other Testimonies they bring, but the Deacon excepts against them as spurious; but these he allows as legitimate, and sets himself to answer them, but with very little satisfaction to the Reader. Now I pray judge, whether these are not more significant Testimonies against Images, than the Council of Nice, or any others yet have produced for them. Now the determination of the Council of Constantinople, after their confession of Faith, upon the whole matter, is this: 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We unanimously determine, That every Image, of whatsoever matter or colour, made by the wicked Art of Painters or Carvers, be cast out of Christian Churches as alien and abominable. And in the next words, they condemn the Art of Carving or Painting, as an ungodly and wicked Profession; and forbidden every one to keep a Picture in his House. The Definition of the Council of Nice follows in the seventh Action. After profession of the Faith of the six general Councils before them, and anathemas denounced against Heresies and Heretics, they declare, to hold uncorrupt all Traditions of the Church written and unwritten, 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  whereof they say, One Tradition is the making of Images suited to the History of the Gospel, for confirmation of the Faith of Christ's taking flesh: and therefore, say they, With all diligence and exactness, we define, That Images of the Lifegiving Cross, and of Christ, and of the Virgin Mary, and of the blessed Angels, and all the Saints, shall be set up in Churches, and Houses, and Highways, and wrought in Copes and Vestments; because the oftener these Images are seen, the more they bring into remembrance and imitation such as are represented by them. 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We also Decree, To give Honour, Salvation, and Adoration, to these Images; not that true worship of Latria, which belongs only to the Divine Nature; but as to the Image of the Cross, and to the Holy Gospels, and that the Oblations of Incense and Tapers should be made for their honour. And in the Close they give the Reason: The honour of the Image redounds to the Prototype, and he that worships the Image therein, death worship the Person of him that is represented by it.  Phil. 
You have put yourself to great trouble to give this large account of both Councils; yet I observe you have been partial, labouring to represent the one rational and serious, the other light and superstitious: yet when you shall observe the definition of the Constantinople Council, condemning all Pictures, and the Art of making them, as a wicked and ungodly Occupation, I cannot think you do fully assent to the determination.  Theoph. 
You must allow something to the heats and passions of Men, and to the present juncture of Affairs. The People, it seems, were given to the Superstitious Worship of Images; and to promote the humour, Idle Monks made Stories and Legends of miraculous Effects from Images and Relics; and the Emperors, with the advice of their Bishops, being much set upon a thorough Reformation, as to this particular, they altogether take away the occasion of Idolatry, both out of Churches and Houses, and public Places, breaking down and burning Images and Pictures, as Hezekiah used the Brazen Serpent, because the Israelites burned Incense to it, and forbidding every one to keep Images, and any Artist to make them.  Phil. 
You make a Plea for them, which afterwards in the Council of Nice many of their Bishops did not for themselves: That they were so severe against Images, because of the People's Superstition and proneness to honour them with Religious Worship.  Theoph. 
You heard, the Emperor Leo Isaurus made that Plea in his Sacred Epistle to Gregory the second. As for the Bishops, those who came to the Council of Nice, and recanted their former Actions, they stood not at all upon their defence and justification; they saw the Stream too great for them to bear up against it, and therefore confessing, aggravating, condemning their former proceed, and begging pardon, they found that the securest way to be received into the Council, and to retain their Bishoprics.  Phil. 
On the other side, yourself have observed how the Fathers of the Council of Nice declared against giving to an Image the Worship called Latria, which they acknowledged due only to God, but only such Honour and Adoration which we give to Men superior unto us, or to the Holy Gospels: and it is usual with you (the Law of the Land commanding it) when you take an Oath to kiss the Bible; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is rendered Adoration, signifies no more than salutation, as the Patriarch Tarasius declared in the Council.  Theoph. 
This is something you say to justify that Council: but you must observe withal, that charge of their Definition of offering Incense, and burning Tapers at these Images; and Invocating the Saints whom they represent for their mediation and assistance, praying to them, as well as falling down before them: this exceeds all civil worship and respect, and can hardly be distinguished from Religious worship due to God alone, especially in the apprehension of vulgar minds, who have not subtlety to understand between supreme and inferior worship, or in their practice to make any difference: and withal, that Axiom upon which they grounded the Doctrine of Image worship, That the honour done to the Image, redounds to the Prototype, would make Men emulous to honour the Image in the same degree, as that which is represented by it, and so the Image of Christ, with Divine Worship, as many Schoolmen afterwards expressly maintained. And withal, we read, Stauratius Bishop of Chalcedon, declared publicly in the Council, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  That he did receive and adore Images, as the pledge of his salvation. And the last Clause I urged of the definition of the Council of Nice, That he who adores the Image, adores him whom the Image represents, seems to determine the same Adoration to one and to the other. For such Reasons as these the Council of Francford, soon after, assembled by Charles the Great, consisting of about 300 Bishops, did reject the Council of Nice, as setting up Religious Worship unto Images, although likewise they did not receive the Council of Constantinople, because they broke down Images, and altogether forbade them. And when Pope Adrian had sent to Charles the Emperor a Copy of the second general Council of Nice, he, together with the Council of Francford, set forth four Books, under the Name of Libri Carolini, in Answer unto, and in confuration of the Nicene Council, concerning Image worship.  Phil. 
I presume, you know many of our Doctors flatly deny, that the Council of Francford did condemn the seventh General Council of Nice for Images, but that they condemned the Council of Constantinople against Images. So Gregory de Valentia, lib. 2. de Idol. c. 7. and Alphonsus de Castro, shows out of Platina, That one Felix who was an Arian, was also an Image breaker, and the Council of Francford was summoned to condemn the Heresy of Felix.  Theoph. 
All this is said, but not proved. Felix his Heresy was condemned, because he held, That Christ, as Man, was the Son of God by adoption, and no other thing was laid to his charge. And likewise, the Council of Constantinople, for breaking Images, was condemned in short, but the Council of Nice at large, for decreeing the worshipping of Images. And Baronius expressly saith, he was so far from denying, that he did absolutely maintain, that the Council of Francford did condemn the Council of Nice, Tom. 9 Anno 794. And he brings many undeniable Testimonies of those times to confirm it; only in some Historians and Writers of those times, there was a mistake in calling it the Synod of Constantinople, instead of the Synod of Nice: but they name the Emperor, Constantine and Irene, under whom the Council was held; and they expressly say, The Council of Francford condemned the Council which established worshipping of Images; and the four Caroline Books made by that Council, and owned by Charles the Great, which were sent to Pope Adrian, wholly determine against the worshipping of Images. Hinemarus Bishop of Rheims, tells us, He saw that Book when he was a Youth in the King's Palace, and did read it: and that when 
b Suarum puparum cultum vehementer pr●m, veret.  Hadrian did still persist in promoting the worship of Images, Ludovicus the Son of Charles. together with the Council of Paris, did write more severely against Images, and plainly reprehend the 
a Indiscrete noscitur fecisse in eo quod superstitiose eos adorari jussit.  Pope for establishing and defending their worship.  Phil. 

b Concili abulum Parisiense.  Bellarmin calls this Council of Paris a Conventicle, because it durst reprove the Pope.  Theoph. 
Alas! The new Doctrine of the Pope's Infallibility, did not pass for currant Coin in those days.  Phil. 
But Baronius shows, how the Council of Francford proceeded upon a mistake, and great scandal in their condemnation of the Council of Nice, being made believe, That Council had determined Latriam, or that worship due to the Blessed Trinity should be given to Images; and they likewise did suppose the Pope had not confirmed that Council.  Theoph. 
Any thing to bear up the reputation and Grandeur of the Pope of Rome. But I pray judge how incredible this is, that the Council of Francford should mistake the Council of Nice, when Adrian had sent a true Copy of that Council by his Legates, Theophilus and Stephanus, who were present in the Council of Francford, and could rectify any such mistakes. 
c Vid. Bin. Tom. 6. in Notis in Concil. Francford, pag. 185.  And upon these Motives, Binius, though unwillingly, declares his dissent from Baronius and Bellarmine, and professeth himself to be of the Opinion, That the Council of Francford never rejected the Council of Nice, or declared against Image worship, and labour in vain to shift off the numerous Testimonies of Writers of those Times, and of that Council. And so you may observe, how much the Doctors of your Church are put to shifts, and fencing about, to ward the blow given in the Western Churches unto Image worship by the Councils of Francford and Paris.  Phil. 
How do you then believe the Council of Francford could proceed upon a mistake, That the Council of Nice had established the same worship to be given to Images, as to the Holy Trinity, seeing it hath declared so expressly against it?  Theoph. 
I have observed many passages in the Council, which fairly tend to that Doctrine, notwithstanding sometime they mince the matter.  Phil. 
For the other supposal likewise, That the Council of Francford should conceive that Pope Hadvian did not confirm the Nicene Council, it is improbable, seeing his Legates were present in that Council, and could easily have informed them better.  Theoph. 
I am not concerned to vindicate and reconcile your Doctors. But the Pope's Legates, perhaps, seeing the stream and zeal of the Council of Francford, consisting of 300 Bishops, against the establishment of Image worship by the Council of Nice, prudently concealed, and were willing to let them believe, That the Pope did not confirm that Council, lest upon that account they should fall fowl upon the Pope; as afterwards the Council of Paris, under Ludovicus, did. And so I am willing to conclude this matter, and toil no longer in the Labyrinth of these Councils, either for Images or against them.  Phil. 
I am willing you should take notice of one Consideration more of Bellarmin, 
a Lib. 2. de Imag. c. 12. Argument. 9 & 10.  That the Emperors who were against Images were desperately wicked, and had signal Evidences of Divine Wrath and Vengeance in the times wherein they lived. The first Founders of the Heresy being Jews, and Samaritans, and Mahumetans, and Necromancers, as he proves out of Historians. And then he shows, how in the Reign of Leo Isaurus, the great Image breaker, there was a great Pestilence in Constantinople, whereof died near three hundred thousand persons.  Theoph. 
Leo reigned 24 Years, and in those parts great Plagues are frequent, and therefore no evident demonstration of Wrath in such a fatal Concurrence.  Phil. 
Bellarmin observes, how Leo and his Successors, upon this occasion, lost the Empire of Italy, and the West, and it was never recovered.  Theoph. 
He may thank Pope Gregory the second for it, who finding the Emperor's Power in Italy inconsiderable, applied himself to the Kings of France, and made use of their Power, both against the Lombard's, and against the Emperor; upon this account he Excommunicated the Emperor, and forbade his usual Revenues out of Italy to be paid unto him. And this was an Art of high Injustice, and Usurpation, and Rebellion; for the Pope of Rome was the Emperor's Subject.  Phil. 
Bellarmin proceeds to observe, how in the Reign of Constantinus Copronymus, there were great Plagues and Earthquakes, and an horrid Frost, wherewith Pontus was congealed 100 Miles: and likewise, such great Droughts, that many Rivers, and Fountains, and Wells, were dried up; by which Judgements, God did testify against them, for their detestable Sacrilege; and in one Prodigy most visibly, because the Sign of the Cross, upon a time, was miraculously imprinted upon men's garments, either in their Houses, or walking in the Streets, and upon the Vestments of Priests; as though God Almighty would in spite of Image-breakers restore the Cross.  Theoph. 
If you rely so much with Bellarmin, upon this Argument of Providence, I may refer you to the several Apologies made for Christians for an Answer. In the Primitive times, the Heathen imputed all public Calamities to the growth of Christianity among them; that for the sake of Christians, the Gods did plague the World. As Tertullian shows in his most excellent Apology: ᵇ If Tiber sxells, and flows even to the Walls 
Cap' 40. Si Tiberis ascendit in moenia, si Nilus non ascendit in arv● etc.  of Rome: if the River Nile do not overflow the Fields: if the Heavens stand and give no Rain, or the Earth move: if there be any Famine, or any Pestilence, they cry out presently, Bring forth the Christians to the Lions. Methinks Bellarmin should be ashamed to make use of the old Heathen Argument: and withal, the intelligent Reader will find, That Bellarmin failed much in his Observation, because the Emperors, who abolished Images and their Worship, prospered in the World, and settled the Empire for some time upon their Posterity; whereas before and after them, we read of slaughters of Emperors, and sudden changes. He that had the greatest influence upon the Army's rebelling against his Prince, and assuming the Empire. But Leo Isaurus, having cast Theodosius out of the Empire, and caused him and his Son to become Priests, possessed the Empire in great security 24 years, died in Peace, and left the Government to his Son Constantinus Copronymus, who Reigned 34 years in a flourishing State; insomuch that Baronius, showing, how in the 28 year of his Empire, in great Triumph and Solemnity he Crowned his Wife Eudoxia Empress, and his two Sons Christophorus and Nicephorus, Caesar's; breaks out into admiration, saying, 
a Quis consid. de foel. scelestiss. principis, Anno 768.  Who, considering the Felicity of this most wicked Prince, would not stand amazed? To Constantine Leo his Son was Successor in the Empire, and Reigning five years, deceased, leaving his Son Constantine ten years old, who, with his Mother Irene ruling the Empire, called the Council of Nice, and restored Images. You see therefore how long these Image breakers hold the Empire, but Constantine the Restorer of Images soon lost it: His Mother Irene put out her Sons Eyes, and he died, and she ruled alone for a season, until she was thrust into a Monastary by Nicephorus, who succeeded her in the Empire of Constantinople. But Pope Leo the third took from her the Empire of Rome before, well rewarding her for her good Service in restoring Images. For we read, 
b Abbas Vspergensis, Anno 801. Carol● Augusto à Deo coronato, magno & pacif. Imperatori Romanorum, Vita & Victoria.  That Charles the Great, King of France, coming into Italy with a great Army to descend the Pope against the Lombard's; being at Rome on Christmas day at High Mass, the Pope arose and put the Crown upon his Head, who thought nothing of it, and declared him Emperor of the Romans, all the People making Acclamation, and wishing, Long Life and Victory to Charles Augustus, Crowned by God, the great and pacific Emperor of the Romans.  Phil. 
Upon this Historical Account which you have given, the Argument from Providence and Success seems to hold for the Emperors who were against Images. But in the second place, there is great notice taken of that Impiety of their Persons: Leo Isaurus, and his Son Constantinus Copronymus, being cruel Tyrants, Abbas Vst ergensis calls the Son, 
c Antichristi percursor perniciosissimus, serus & Agrestis, etc.  The forerunner of Antichrist, most pernicious, fierce, and barbarous, and tryannical, delighting in Witchcraft, and all Luxury and 〈◊〉 Sacrifices, and Invocation of Devils, etc. Of his Father Isaurus the same Historian saith, 
a In Christianes' & Ecclesias Dei, ac religionem sanctorum impius fuit.  He was impious against Christians, and the Churches of God, and the worship of Saints.  Theoph. 
The Historians of those Times were exceeding partial; most of them superstitious Monks, who had great indignation against the Emperors who broke down Images, hinc illae lachrymae: and this Abbot of Vs● erg follows his Leaders. But you have heard how Pope Gregory the second, writing to Leo Isaurus, acknowledged, he had given in the first ten years of his Reign, great Evidences of his Piety and Prudence before he fell into the Heresy against Images; and therefore all these black Characters of Tyranny, and Luxury, and Necromancy, were drawn upon the Emperors chief for their Zeal against the Idolatrous worship of Images, through the blind superstition of the vulgar. On the other side, they were all Saints who protected Images. The Abbot of Vsperg, 
b Irene piissima, una cum Constantino glorioso divinitus acceptat Imperium.  styles Irene, Most Pious; who with Constantine the Glorious, from Heaven received the Empire And yet the same Historian shows afterwards, how this most godly Woman made her Son, much against his will, break a Contract of Marriage made with the Daughter of Charles the Great, whom he entirely loved, and to Marry another. Afterwards, dissension arising between her and her Son, she laid a Scene to take him, and put out his Eyes, wherewith he soon died, and she Reigned alone five years; until one Nicephorus served her in her kind, usurping the Empire, and confining her unto a Monastery which herself had built. Lo! this was the Saint that restored Images.  Phil. 
You must not judge of Truths by the Persons that defend them, God can bring much good to his Church by evil Instruments.  Theoph. 
Had Bellarmine taken your good advice, he had saved all this trouble to answer his Heathen Arguments taken from Providence; especially, seeing in this case (as you have heard) he had no reason to make the Observation: but he will say any thing, true or false, to advance the Cause, presuming his Readers, most of them, would take up all upon the credit of his Authority and Learning; and for his Adversaries, he scorns and defies them as Heretics, not worthy consideration. But to proceed, from the countenance of this famous Council of Nice, and of the Pope and his Followers, the worship of Images is superstitiously entertained in most parts of the Christian World: the Clergy going too far in their bold Assertions, and giving pernicious example, and yet supposing to salve themselves with subtle and nice Distinctions: and the common People following them in the plain way of Idolatry, being not able to understand the subtleties of their Leaders, or to discern between degrees of Religious worship, they kneel, and pray, and adore the Image, 
Solutâ pace nuptialis Foederis cum Francis.  as much as the Ignorant among the Heathen their Idol; especially to the Blessed Virgin and her Image such Devotion and Adorations are paid, as though she were advanced into the highest Orb, endowed with Power to command her Son: Visits and Pilgrimages are made from all places to her Chapel at Loretto, and other eminent places: all sorts of Treasure and Ornaments are presented to adorn her Chapels and her Images, to array her as though she were the Queen of Sheba, or of the Indies: the Marble steps of ascent unto her Image, in some places, are worn away by Votaries, creeping upon their Knees to present their Offerings; and we have Legends of miraculous effects of her Image. The Schoolmen, to keep up this profitable honour of Pilgrimages, and Visits, and Oblations, justify the practice, make Psalters and Offices of our Lady, and bring her Worship and Invocation in such request, that the Honour and Invocation of Christ, and of the Father, can hardly compare therewith: and so was there let in upon the World an Inundation of Superstition and Idolatry, the People, in simplicity of heart, following their Leaders into the snare.  Phil. 
You cannot deny, but that in this point of the Worship and Invocation of Saints, and so much more in the Veneration of their Images, the Learned declare a vast difference between the fear, and honour, and adoration, they ascribe to God and to Christ, and what they give to the Blessed Virgin and the Saints.  Theoph. 
In general terms they do; but I do not find them forward to descend unto particulars, which shows they would appear to say something to amuse the World, but nothing to the purpose.  Phil. 
You know, they have made the worship of God, and of the Saints, and of their Images, two opposite Members of that notorious distinction of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; the one supreme and peculiar to God and to Christ, the other infinitely inferior, appertaining to the Saints and their Images.  Theoph. 
'Tis true, St 
a De Civit. Dei, lib. 10. cap. 1.  Augustin affirms, That the Learned appropriate the Greek word Latria (which signifies and imports generally, any service due from an Inferior to a Superior) unto the special Service we own to God, perhaps from that appropriation of our Blessed Saviour, Matth. 4. Him only shalt thou serve. The Original Words are, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. But there is another word, saith he, which signifies the service we own to Men, as when the Apostle saith, Col. 3. Servants, obey in all things your own Masters. Now because in that Text servants are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, therefore the Schools call that service Dulia. But I pray observe, 
b Ea servitus quae debetur hominibus.  Augustin saith, It is that service which is due to Men, to Masters from their Servants: But now by the Schoolmen it is Translated to import, The Service, and Worship, and Adoration, given to the Saints departed, and to their Images. And I do not find in the second Council of Nice, the term of Dulia, opposite to Latria; but Salutation and Adoration, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. However at present we dispute not the terms, but desire to know the importance of the known distinction, That God only is worshipped with the worship called Latria; and the Saints with the worship called Dulia. In the first place therefore, What is Latria? 
a Lib. 9 Instit. Moralium, c. 5. Cultus soli Deo, etc.  Azorius a Jesuit and Casuist, tells us, It is Service or Worship due to God alone, whereby we subject ourselves to him as to the supreme Lord, putting our trust and confidence in him. In the second place: What is Dulia? 
b Veneratio quae civibus Coeli tribuitur.  That Veneration, saith he, which is given unto the Citizens of Heaven. This showeth to whom it is given: but why doth he not tell us what that Worship is, and wherein it differeth from Latria? And withal, seeing Dulia signifieth servitude, in the judgement of 
c Tom. 1. l. de vera Relig. c. 55. Honoramus eos charitate, non servitate.  Augustin, we ought not to give it to the Saints in Heaven: We honour them, saith he, with love, and not with servitude. No distinct peculiar Service or Worship is due to the Saints in Glory: for herein lies the difference between the Fathers and the Schoolmen. These appropriate a Service and Worship to the Saints in Heaven, and call it Dulia; to the Blessed Virgin, and call it Hyperdulia. But Augustin makes no difference between the Service and Worship due to the Saints in Heaven, and the Saints on Earth: 
d Lib. 20. Contra Faust. Manich. c. 21. Colimus Martyres eo cultu delect. etc.  We honour Martyrs with that worship of love and friendship, wherewith we honour holy Men of God in this life; and we worship God alone with Latria. When the Manichees objected, That Christians made Idols of their Martyrs, honouring their Tombs, and erecting Altars before them, 
e Quos etiam votis similibus colitis.  and making Vows unto them. 
f Altaria erigimus Deo Martyrum, & quod offertur, Deo offertur, etc.  Augustin answers, We erect the Altars to the God of those Martyrs, and the Oblations are given to God who crowned the Martyrs: A Christian, with Religious Solemnity celebrates the memories of Martyrs, to excite Imitation, and that he may share in their merits, and be assisted by their Prayers.  Phil. 
This passage of St Augustin, shows a Religious Solemnity to be kept in honour of the Saints departed; and that the living may share in their Merits, and be assisted by their Prayers: these are Truths which you will not freely acknowledge.  Theoph. 
We do acknowledge them: for by a Religious Solemnity, we understand the Festivals which the Holy Church observes in commemoration of the Saints and Martyrs. By the society of their Merits, we understand, that by imitation of the Saints, we have a Fellowship in their Labours, and in their Crowns. And for the last Clause, the assistance of their Prayers, we doubt not, but that the Saints in Heaven do pray for the Church of God, and his Servants here on Earth; but as for any knowledge of particulars, when we come to that Point, I can show, how St Augustin doubts, 
a Lib. de cura pro Mort. c. 15. Fatendum, nescire quidem mortuos quid hic agatur.  Whether the Blessed Saints and Martyrs do hear the Prayers which are offered up at their Shrines; nay, he confesseth, that they do not know what is done here below; and that when by the power of God, and Ministry of Angels, Miracles were done at their Shrines, themselves might not know it, no not when they did appear to some upon Earth; as Saul saw in a Vision one Ananias coming to him, and putting his hands upon him, that he might receive his sight; but Ananias himself knew nothing of that appearance to Saul, until the Lord declared it to him, Acts 9, 12 God might please to act great things at the Monuments of Martyrs, 
b Cap. 17. Illis in summa quiete positis.  whilst themselves were in perfect rest, as he speaks. But this by the way, it belongs to another Controversy, in due time to be assumed. However, you have heard Augustin, after all that he had said, concluding, We honour Martyrs with that worship of Love and Friendship, wherewith we honour Holy Men of God in this Life; and if you will require no more Veneration to be given to them, we will grant it: But than you must remember, That Paul, when living, did forbid Cornelius to worship him; and so did the Angel prohibit the Apostle John; and so would all the glorious Saints in Heaven prohibit your Adoration before their Images, if they could communicate in speech, or any other way with you: Religious Worship we deny to the Saints and their Images; civil honour and respect we give.  Phil. 
Because the Saints and Angels of God are like him in their natural Powers and Qualities, moral and civil honour is due to them; for honour is the acknowledgement of some Excellency. But then in regard unto their supernatural Gifts, and Spiritual and Religious Qualities, we must allow them Religious and Spiritual Honour and Veneration.  Theoph. 

c De vera Relig. c. 55. Vni Deo religamus animas nostras, unde Religio dicta creditur.  St Augustin observes, how the very name of Religion strictly binds us to God: and therefore all Religious Acts and Services are due only to him. Had not Peter, and Paul, and the other Saints in bliss, while they were living in the Flesh, supernatural Gifts and Excellencies? and would you have worshipped them with Religious Worship? Cornelius attemted it, and was forbidden.  Phil. 
There is a great disproportion between the Saints in Glory, and the Saints militant here on Earth.  Theoph. 
In regard of their Happiness and Fruition, they are excellent beyond compare; but this is their reward: the Honour we give them, is in commemoration of their Works and Excellencies in this Life, for our example and imitation. And withal, Cornelius worshipping Peter in the Flesh, was sure Peter was sensible of that Honour then given; and you know the Apostle refused it: but if you worship him now, being in Heaven, you may rationally doubt, as St Augustin did of the Saints in geneneral, whether he is sensible of that Honour more than his Image before which you fall down and worship.  Phil. 
However, God accepts the Honour done to his Saints, as to himself.  Theoph. 
Yes, when done according to his rule: But where hath God given any command or direction to worship them? you bring no proofs of your Practice out of Holy Scripture: we urge many Texts against it. Your Arguments run altogether upon Analogy and Proportion; that much more honour is due to the Saints now in Heaven, then when they lived in the Flesh, because they are much more excellent, confirmed in Grace and Glory; the great Favourites of the King of Heaven. So proceed your Arguments for the worshipping of their Images; we give unto them, say ye, a relative, inferior, dependent honour, according to the Analogy of Reason; he that loves the Person, will love his Image: But where is the Authority of Holy Scripture? God cannot be offended, you will say, that the Images of his Saints and Servants should be had in honour; and what is done to the Image, redounds to the honour of the Saint represented by it; and of God, who hath highly honoured him. But still you must keep within your Bounds: God is jealous of his Honour, and will not permit any degree thereof to be communicated to any other, whether Saint or Angel, much less to their Images. For instance, Adoration, falling down and worshipping: the Angel refused it, and sends the Apostle, to give that to God: Peter refused it: the Devil desired it upon great promises, If thou wilt fall down and worship me (or before me) 
a Luke 4. ver. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  all these things will I give Thee: but our Blessed Saviour replied, It appertains only to God: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God. The word is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: and yet this Adoration and Worship ye give to Images, ye bow down and worship before them.  Phil. 
But this Adoration we give, is infinitely inferior to the Worship of God.  Theoph. 
This you say; but many of your Doctors say otherwise: 
b Part. 3. q. 25. Art. 3. Imag. Christi cultu Latr. coli deberi, etc.  Aquinas, the great Oracle of the Schools, expressly holds, That the Image of Christ is to be adored with that Worship, called Latria: and he gives the reason, because the honour of the Image redounds to the Prototype; and according to Aristotle, saith he, the same motion of the mind tends to the Image as an Image; and to the thing represented by it: and therefore, seeing Christ is worshipped with Divine Adoration, so likewise his Image. 
c Art. 4. Crux Christi adoranda est adoration, Latriae. Quia in ca ponimus, etc.  In the next Article, he declares the same for the Crucifix: It is to be worshipped with the worship due to God; and proves it thus, Because in the Cross we put our hope of Salvation: For upon the Passion-day, saith he, the Church hath taught us to say, All hail, O Cross! our only hope: Increase to the Godly salvation, and give pardon to the guilty.  Phil. 
One Doctor's Opinion signifies but little.  Theoph. 
If your Church do not approve it, why after so long a time do they not censure it? But what do you speak of one Doctor? 
a Lib. 9 Inst. Mor. c. 6.  Azorius, a Jesuit and Casuist, shows it is the common Opinion of the Doctors, and quotes Aquinas, Bonaventure, Alexander Hales, Richardus, Albertus, Paludanus, Almain, Marsilius, Capreolus, Cajetan, & caeteros juniores; many others after them. And whereas the second Council of Nice hath determined, That the Image of Christ and the Cross is not to be worshipped Latria, with that worship due to God, but with such Veneration as is due to the Holy Bible, and to Holy Vessels etc. It is plain, saith he, that Council speaks of the Image and the Cross as in themselves they are sacred things, and so to be honoured as holy Vessels, etc. but if we consider them as Images representing Christ and his death, so we must worship them as we do Christ, with the same honour as the thing represented is worshipped. And he brings the 
c Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. Honos qui iis exhibetur refertur ad prot. etc.  Council of Trent to confirm his Opinion, saving, The honour given to the Image is referred to the Prototype, so that by the Images which we salute, and before which we uncover the head, and fall down, we do worship Christ and the Saints. And because I am not willing to multiply Quotations, I will refer you to 
d Naclantus Episcopus Clugiensis, in Comment. in 1 cap. ad Rom. propefinem. Representatum est in Imag. sicut in speculo in quo cernitur & honoratur, etc.  one of your great Doctors, whose Works are dedicated to Pope Pius the fifth: He tells us, The Prototype is in the Image, as in a Looking— glass, wherein it is both seen and honoured; and therefore, seeing the Image contains the exemplar, and doth not only represent it, when we speak of the Adoration of an Image, as an Image, referring unto and containg the thing represented; we, without any scruple affirm that we ought to worship, not only before the Image (as some would seem to speak cautiously) but to worship the Image itself, with the same worship as we do the Prototype. In the same place he supposeth the 
e Respiciebat populus serpentem religiose, & forte obtulit, etc.  Israelites in the Wilderness did worship the Brazen Serpent, and perhaps offer Incense to it, and yet without fear of Idolatry, because it was a Type of Christ; and therefore Moses and the seniors among them, who knew the Mystery, might fall down and worship it Religiously, and be no Idolaters: and the People also, who knew not the Mystery, believing as the Elders believed, and resolving their Faith into the Faith of the Elders, might without sin worship the Serpent, although they did not understand it to be the Type of Christ.  Phil. 
These are School-subtleties, arguing from the Image to the Exemplar, and from a notion of Aristotle; and Naclantus going farther than the rest, is but a single Testimony, fancying an Image to be a Looking-glass, and the thing represented by it to be presentially contained in it. But you have heard the plain determination of the Nicene Council 
b Loquitur de Cruse prout est res quaedam sacra, non ut refertur ad exemplar.  was, That the Image of Christ, and the Cross, and so any other Image was not to be worshipped with that worship due to God, but with a worship far inferior.  Theoph. 
You may perceive, by this, how much your Schoolmen value Fathers and Councils, when they speak not for them: But why doth your Church and after Councils permit them to pass without censure, and an Index expurgatorius? Naclantus dedicates his Book to the Pope, and therefore did presume upon his allowance and protection.  Phil. 
Baronius excuses the Schoolmen and our Doctors, in maintaining the Image of Christ, and of the Cross, are to be worshipped with the worship called Latria, because, saith he, they were mistaken, and did suppose, with the Council of Francford, that the Nicene Council had determined Divine Honour to be given to them.  Theoph. 
If this were so, it manifests your Doctors and Schoolmen to have been grossly ignorant of the Councils. And secondly, That they are resolved to assert whatsoever they believe a Council hath determined, right or wrong; yea, although it be against the dictate of their Conscience, and rule of God's Word. But leaving the Cardinal's Excuses and Guesses to himself, Aquinas, and the rest, give their own Reasons for their Opinions: the Church hath taught us to put our hope in the Cross, and therefore we worship it with Divine Worship; the honour of his Image tends to Christ. The thing represented is in the Image as in a Looking-glass, and therefore we adore it. Nay, Azorius takes notice of the Nicene determination, and shows how in one sense it is true; in another, not: take the Image of Christ materially, as a Consecrated thing, so it is not worshipped with Divine Worship: but formally as an Image representing Christ, so Divine Worship is given to it. Now such allowed Distinctions as these, and Doctrines, have prevailed upon the unwary People to give the same worship to the Image and the Exemplar; nay, to give Religious Worship to all Images. In the Schools they tell us of divers kinds of Worship, whereas in their Churches there is no sensible difference; what Worship the People give to God, the same they give to the Saints; they Pray, they fall down and Worship. And to our purpose, 
a In Psalm. 113. Quis adorat vel orat intuens simulachrum, qui non sic afficitur, ut ab eo se exaudiri putet, & ab eo sibi praestari, quod desiderat, speret?  Augustin proposeth a serious Question: Who Prays or Adores, beholding an Image, and is not so affected, that he believes the Image bears him, and hopes to receive from it, that which he desires and prays for?  Phil. 
St Augustin speaks of the Heathen, and their Idols.  Theoph. 
And it is very applicable unto your deluded People and their Images: for let us no longer hover in the Clouds, and in the general Notion of a Divine Worship called Latria, due only to God; and of an inferior Worship, called Dulia, given unto the Saints in Heaven and to their Images. You know the saying, Dolus in universalibus, Much deceit usually lurks in general terms. We will descend therefore to some particulars, what are precisely the Acts of Divine Worship. ᵃ Azorius tells us, To put our trust and confidence in him, is one special act of Latria, the peculiar Worship due to God. And yet Aquinas hath showed how your Church teacheth us to put our only hope in the Cross, Ave Crux spes Vnica.  Phil. 
This we must conceive to be a Prosopopoea, or Speech, made to Christ upon the Cross, in the day of his Passion.  Theoph. 
The common People, doubtless, understands your Figure of Prosopopoea singularly well: And why doth your Church choose to speak to the Cross after that manner, and not rather to Christ upon the Cross? And how comes it to pass that Aquinas understood not this Figure? but supposeth it to be spoken to the Cross directly, and so frames his proof of Divine Worship due to the Cross, because we put our trust in it? Again, for Churches and Temples built and dedicated to the Saints, 
b Tom. 6. lib. 10. contra Maximinum. Nun si templum alicui Sancto Angelo excellentiss. de ligno & lapide faceremus, Anathematizeremur à veritate, & Ecclesia Dei, quonium Create. exhiberemus eam servitutem, quae soli Deo debetur?  Augustin saith expressly, If we should make a Temple to any Holy and most excellent Angel, either of Wood or Stone, Should we not be separated and accursed from the Truth, and from the Church of God, because we exhibit to a Creature that service which is due only to God? 
c Hoc nunc fit quibuslibet Divis.  And Erasmus his Marginal Note upon this Passage of Augustin, is, This now is every where done unto the Saints. 
d Lib. 1. De vera Rel. c. 55. Honoramus eos charitate non servitute, nec iis templa construimus.  Again, Augustin in another place speaking of the Saints, saith, We honour them with love, not with service; neither do we build Temples to them. 
e Horae Virg. Mariae secundum usum sacrum, Sancti Dei in quorum honore & commemoratione haec Sancta est dedicata Ecclesia, & haec altaria consecrata, etc.  So at the entrance into the Church, Men are taught to direct their Prayers unto the Saints to whom the Churches are dedicated, saying, O ye Saints of God, in the honour and remembrance of whom this Church is dedicated, and this Altar consecrated, etc. Now the Temple is called, The House of Prayer, and the House of God, because to him only, who heareth Prayer, we sheuld send up our Supplications. Again, Altars, as well as Images, are frequently erected unto Saints: and yet Saint Augustin saith, An Altar implies a Deity; the Altar shows they take the Statue for a God; and the Altars of the Blessed Virgin, and of the Saints, are common, upon which their Votaries offer Gold, and Jewels, and Pearl, and embroidered Garments, etc.  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows how the Altars are erected, and Churches 
f Sermone 6. de Verb. Domini, secundum Matth. Quod pro Numine accip. illam siatuam Altare testatur.  dedicated to God; and so the Sacrifice of the Eucharist, and of Prayer, and Praises, are offered up to God in honour to the Saints, and they are called upon in the public Prayers of the Church, etc.  Theoph. 

a Bell. Tom. 2. lib. de Beat. Sanctorum, c. 7. Invocantur Sancti in publicis Ecclesiae precibus, etc.  Bellarmin acknowledgeth enough to condemn the practice of your Church, in ascribing more honour to the Saints, than the Holy Scriptures allow them. Christ saith, Do this in remembrance of me. And Bellarmin saith, The Sacrifice of the Eucharist is offered to God in remembrance and honour of the Saints. And withal, you should do well to consider, That if these Religious Acts are performed to God in honour of the Saints, they are terminated in them, as the finis ultimus, the chief end. As when you say, The honour and worship of the Image redounds to the honour of him whom it represents; and the honour done to the Servant, redounds unto the Master: so the several acts of worship performed to God in honour of the Saints, redound more to their glory, then to the glory of God; they are the chief end, and his service but subordinate unto their honour. And so you run in a Circle, and entangle yourselves in a Labyrinth, to maintain a gross and palpable Error of giving a Religious Worship to the Saints and to their Images; calling the Cross, Our only hope; the Images of the Saints, Pledges of our Salvation: lighting Tapers, and burning Incense to them, and such like: and after all, you wash your hands of Idolatry, and tell the World, That ye give inferior petty honour to the Saints and their Images, and to the Cross; even such, as to sacred Utensils of the Church, or to the Holy Book of Scriptures, or to the Chair of State in the King's Palace, or to the King's Image, or to the name of Jesus, or to the Communion Table. Now if all that I have said implies no more, I yield the Cause.  Phil. 

b Lib. 2. de Idol. c. 1. Idololatriae genuina Ratio est Creaturae, etc.  Gregory de Valentia, seems to reconcile all the difference with this Distinction: Formal Idolatry, is to give Divine Honour to a Creature, as to God: If therefore I give Divine Honour to the Saints, or their Images, as Creatures, not as God, I am not guilty of Idolatry.  Theoph. 
He was driven to this shift, to justify the practice of your Church, and free it from Idolatry; but it will not serve, for Divine Worship is due only to God, and therefore should not be communicated to a Creature upon any account.  Phil. 
You will have the last word, and I yield to you, because the Night comes on, and I suppose both of us are sufficiently tired with the length of this Controversy; and you are almost fallen upon another Controversy, of the Honour and Adoration of Saints, which will require another season to determine it.  Theoph. 
The honour of Saints and of their Images, having near affinity, have been some time taken into consideration together; but my chief design was against Image worship, as giving great occasion of Idolatry and Scandal in the Church. And what I have said, I leave to your serious consideration, giving you many thanks for this opportunity and freedom of Discourse, and for my noble Entertainmentall this time I have been your studious Opponent. There are many differences between our Church and yours remaining; whereupon, when our occasions shall allow us other. Meetings, if you are willing, we will treat, with God's Blessing, in Charity and Love.   

THE FOURTH CONFERENCE, OF THE Invocation of SAINTS.  Phil. 
DEar Sir, Since our last Meeting I have been tumultuous in my thoughts, and dissatisfied with myself, That I could not give such full satisfaction to your Arguments, as I at first supposed: However, I have learned of the Apostle, Tit. 1. 9 To hold fast the faithful word, as I have been taught; and not permit the Truth to be wrested from me by subtle, and perhaps, sophistical Objections. I may go to Heaven in the plain way wherein Christ and his Holy Church doth lead me, without perplexing myself with emergent Difficulties and Controversies: reserving them to be resolved until Elias (as the Jews speak) or rather until our Blessed Saviour shall come again.  Theoph. 
It seems you are resolved to hold to the Conclusion strongly, be the Premises never so infirm: and hereunto, no doubt, your Doctors and your Priests advise you, To yield an Implicit Faith to the Decrees of your Church, and not dispute them. But upon the same Motive, you should always have subscribed and kept steadfast unto the Articles of our Church (which was likewise yours) and not have forsaken her Communion, for Scruples and Imaginations of your own, and false Suggestions of others; I mean, Those creeping Emissaries of Rome, who swarm among us, and buzz into men's Ears uncertain sounds, to unsettle their minds, and take them off from sound Principles, and then infuse their bewitching Sorceries and Delusions, making them drunk with the Cup of Fornications; and then, forsooth, their besotted Reason must be charmed against all attemts to awaken and to recover them. If Reason and Argumentation could induce you to leave our Church, whilist you gave an easy belief unto our Adversaries, give us leave by the same method to undeceive and to reduce you; and do not brutishly resolve to hold fast those pretended Truths, which you cannot defend against our Oppositions.  Phil. 
Your Church allowing her Disciples a liberty of judging, I suitably made use of her Indulgence: but being now converted to the Church of Rome, I am taught the obedience of an Implicit Faith, and not encouraged to dispute her Articles.  Theoph. 
A rare Artifice and Policy to keep Men hoodwinked and in Error, by forbidding them to open their Eyes, and make use of their Reason and Judgement to discover the Truth. Our Church may easily impose the like Credulity upon her Children; but she dares not use Stratagems against the Truths of God, to do evil upon pretensions of good; to keep her Sons and Daughters in ignorance, that they may be obedient. The Holy Scriptures enjoin a search, and examination, and trial. Prove all things, saith St. Paul, and hold fast that which is good, 1 Thess. 5. 21. But you would have Men tenacious of their Opinions, without Judgement; hold to the Point, without the proof. St Peter exhorts the Saints, 1 Pet. 3. 15. always to be ready to give an answer unto every one that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them: but you are against this rendering of Reasons, the Authority of your Church must suffice.  Phillip 
Not so neither: The Church commands, and gives sufficient proof for her prescriptions, and we submit to her account.  Theoph. 
Do you take the liberty, for your own satisfaction, to examine and judge of the account?  Phil. 
Yes doubtless, the more to convince and settle us upon that good foundation.  Theoph. 
But suppose upon the search and enquiry you do not find satisfaction to your reason? Suppose your Heart and Conscience may suggest Exceptions against the Doctrine and the practice of your Church, what then?  Phil. 
We may have recourse unto our Priests and Doctors for solution of doubts.  Theoph. 
Taking the Holy Oracles of Scripture along with you, that is not amiss: but withal, you should do well to consider, That they will surely resolve the Question on their own side, and your Church gives no liberty to hear the adverse Party; and so Truths are not weighed in an equal balance, and differences are determined, only one side being heard.  Phil. 
Good Theophilus, trouble not yourself with the non-permissions of our Church; it will appear at present you have no cause to complain, for I am purposely come to requite your former visit, and to continue the debate in a Friendly manner, concerning some other Points wherein we differ: and whereas the last time you made choice of such Particulars to insist on, which you thought most liable unto popular Exception; you shall give me leave now to propose the subject of our Discourse.  Theoph. 
Sir, besides the equity of your Demand, the rule of Hospitality requires, That in my own House I should design to observe you; and therefore be pleased to make your Friendly Challenge, and appoint the Field and Weapons, and I will answer you.  Phil. 
Upon this fair Concession, I will try your skill in one great Point, concerning the Invocation of Saints: and because you shall not complain of a surprisal, I will principally urge Eellarmins proofs, in whose Works you appeared the last time to be so conversant.  Theoph. 
Our Church piously withholding none of our Adversaries Writings from us, that upon due Examination we may judge of Truth; I have, I must confess, proposed chief to myself the perusal of that great Cardinal's Defence, because I was assured of his great Abilities, and of his Zeal for your Church, and that in him I should meet with all which rationally can be suggested to uphold his Cause: Let us therefore hear how he hath managed these Controversies.  Phil. 
Concerning the Point, Invocation of Saints departed: After some preliminary Discourses, 
a Tom. 2. Controvers. 4. de Eccl. Triumph. c. 18, 19  Bellarmin undertakes to prove two things, one in order unto the other. 1. That the Saints in Heaven do pray for us. 2. That we must pray to them.  Theoph. 
One of these doth not necessarily follow upon the other. That if the Saints Triumphant are solicitous for, and do pray for the Church Militant in general (for the triumph of their Faith, and their consummation in Bliss, who being Fellow-members of Christ's mystical Body the Church, are yet within the Lists, wrestling with great opposition and many trials) I say, it doth not follow, That if the Saints in Glory do pray for the Church Militant, that therefore we should call upon them so to do: They are perfect in Grace, and never wanting to their duty, or unmindful of their concerns. Upon this account, methinks out of a Zeal to the glory of God, you ought as frequently to call upon the Saints in Heaven, to laud and magnify the God of Heaven; as out of a sense of your own wants to pray unto them to intercede for you. But withal, you can never give us any infallible assurance, that they do hear our Prayers, that so in Faith and with confidence we may call upon them. The Members of the Church-Catholic thro-out the World do pray for one another, and yet one National Church doth not Invocate another, except it be by enter course of communicatory Epistles. Direct me how to send a Letter to Saint Peter, and I will not fail to put in my humble request, That he would help me with his Prayers.  Phil. 
This great Point, concerning the assurance that the Saints do hear our Prayers, will fall into consideration hereafter: mean while, it becomes you not to mock and play the Droll in a serious concern.  Theoph. 
You may excuse me the rather, seeing you shall find in 
b Tom. 5. pag. 513.  Binius his Edition of the Councils, a large Letter sent to Pepin King of France, and Charles and Carlemain his Sons, from St Peter, by Pope Stephen the 3d, imploring and requiring their speedy assistance against the Lombard's, in the behalf of Rome, his Episcopal See, and of his Sepulchre and Temple therein. And you may suppose, Pope Stephen could as easily have returned an Answer from these Princes to the Apostle. I shall have occasion to produce that hereafter.  Phil. 
These are strange divertisements from our business: Are you seriously afraid to enter into the Controversy, that you interrupt my Discourse with such impertinencies?  Theoph. 
If I should answer your Question, you would complain of more delays: Take your course therefore, and I will follow you.  Phil. 

a Ib. Cap. 18.  Bellarmin proves, the Saints do pray for us from that passage of Holy Scripture, Tho Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet could not my mind be towards this People: Therefore (saith he) Moses and Samuel being dead, did usually pray for the People of the Jews.  Theoph. 
We have a rule in Logic, Suppositio nihil point: This Supposition, If they should pray, doth not imply, They did pray. The Text only designs to show, God's great indignation against his People the Jews at that time; insomuch, that if those two Holy Persons, and greatly beloved, were alive, and should interpose for them, they should not prevail. 
b Tom. 4. Homil. 1. in primum Thess. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Hence St Chrysostom upon this Text, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. If Moses, the first Lawgiver, who often delivered the Jews by his Intercession from Divine Vengeance; if he were now in being, he should not prevail. The like passage we have, Ezek 14. 13, 14. Son of Man, when the Land sinneth against me, by trespassing grievously, etc. though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness. And so in divers passages following in that Chapter: Tho Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, etc. now as this Supposition cannot infer these three Men were in the Land; for Noah and Job were dead more than a thousand Years before, although Daniel was then living: So neither doth the former Supposition prove, That Moses and Samuel did pray for the Jews after their decease. That place of St Paul, Gal. 10. ver. 8. Tho we, or an Angel from Heaven preach any other Gospel to you, etc. in Beauties' Logic must imply, They did preach another Gospel. Let the Reader pity us, to see unto what a drudgery we are put to answer such futile Arguments.  Phil. 
I well see, nothing will prevail against your prejudices, but express and positive Texts, and therefore in the next Argument Bellarmine complies with your humour. In the second Book of Maccabees, and the last Chapter, we read expressly, How Onias (formerly their High Priest, and a virtuous and good Man) prayed for the whole Body of the Jews, ver. 12. And that Jeremiah, the Prophet of the Lord, did pray much for the People, and for the holy City, when Judas Maccabaeus was engaging in Battle with Nicanor; unto whom, we read the Prophet Jeremiah gave a Sword of Gold, as a Gift from God, wherewith to wound and subdue his Enemies.  Theoph. 
This is out of an Apocryphal Book, and therefore no infallible proof from Canonical Scripture: Now touching the Canon of Holy Scripture, we may have, by Divine permission, another occasion to discourse. And although Bellarmin pleaseth himself, that Calvin had no other refuge but to deny the Authority of the Text; yet we will reflect upon other Particulars which appear to weaken the Testimony. For it was but a Dream of Judas Maccabeus, which he told unto his Soldiers to encourage them before the Fight; a Dream worthy to be believed, as if it had been so indeed, saith the Author, ver. 11. It seems therefore indeed it was not so, and so the whole Testimony is from a Dream that had no reality. In the 12th verse, it is called, A Vision, you may suppose a waking Dream; and therein there was so much reality, that Jeremiah gave a golden Sword to Judas to wound his Adversaries: but a golden Sword is no fit Instrument of War for execution, and it is much, we never read it was laid up in the Temple for a Sacred Relic: and much more cause we have to wonder, it is not at all mentioned in the first Book of Maccabees, which is the more perfect History of those Wars; and wherein the Battle with Nicanor is punctually related, 1 Macc. 7. 41. and Judas his Prayer to God before the Fight: but of the Dream or Vision, ne gry quidem. And now I pray observe, how your Doctors in those Instances are inconstant to their own Principles: for they generally hold, That the Souls of the Faithful departed, before Christ's Resurrection, did not enter into Heaven, neither see the Face of God, nor know the State of things here above them; and therefore it was not usual in the Church to call upon them, and say, Holy Abraham, pray for us. Your Doctors hold, 
a Bell. ib. c. 19 Notandum ante adventum Christi, qui moriebantur, non intrabant in Coelum, non Deum videbant, nec ordinary, poterant cognese, preces sapplicantium.  That the Spirits of the Patriarches, and Prophets, and People of God, were shut up in Limbo Patrum (as they call it) in a subterraneous place, the uppermost verge of Hell, beneath us: without pain, and without joy in the Vision of God: waiting for their redemption out of that Prison by the coming of Christ, who descended into Hell to set them at liberty, and to conduct them triumphantly into Heaven. When we urge that Text, Isa. 63. ver. 16. Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledgeth us not; to show how the Saints departed know not the Affairs and Transactions here below, You answer, So it was before Christ's Ascension: the Saints departed were not in Heaven, until Christ opened the Kingdom to them; but they were shut up from the Vision of God, and from all knowledge of the concerns of this World: and yet, contrary to this their own Hypothesis, you see how they give Instances of Moses, and Samuel, and Onias, and Jeremiah, praying for their People the Jews, and solicitous for them in their distress.  Phil. 
You may therefore observe the limitation of Bellarmine: Non poterant ordinarie preces cognoscere, etc. In that state they understood not ordinarily the Affairs upon Earth, nor heard the Prayers of the People: but God might reveal them, and so excite them to pray for the People: upon which account some of our Doctors hold, 
a Azorius Instit. Moral. lib. 9 c. 9 Medina de Orat. Quaest. 4.  That Prayers might be made to the Fathers in Limbo, yea even to the Souls in Purgatory; because they are in a state of Grace and Charity, and by the gift of God, or by the Ministry of Angels, they may hear our Prayers.  Theoph. 
Upon the same ground we may daily implore the Assistance and Prayers of our Friends that are absent, living at a great distance from us, for God may reveal our Desires and Petitions to them: but alas! these are weak props and suppositions to uphold a feeble cause, and hitherto your Learned Cardinal hath not been demonstrative in the point.  Phil. 
Before we conclude, I do not doubt but you shall change your note. In the New Testament, we read, Rev. 5. 8. How the 24 Elders fall down before the Lamb, having golden Viols full of Odours, which are the Prayers of the Saints.  Theoph. 
What Argument can Bellarmin or you frame out of this Text? I understand not his design.  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows, how Interpreters understand, by the Prayers of the Saints, Intercessions made by the Saints in Heaven, for the confirmation and support of their weak Brethren upon Earth.  Theoph. 
It seems then, even the Saints in Glory make use of Mediators, of the four Beasts, and the twenty four Elders, to present their Prayers to the Lamb. The more general Interpretation of that place is, That these Odours, filling the golden Vials, are the Prayers of the Faithful upon Earth, which are represented in the Psalm, To ascend like the Incense, Psal. 141. ver. 2.  Phil. 
This gives as full testimony to our purpose as the other: for thereby it appears, the Prayers of the Saints on Earth are presented unto God, and to the Lamb, by the Saints and Angels in Heaven. And to this effect we read, Rev. 8. ver. 3, 4. how an Angel came and stood at the Altar, having a golden Censer: and there was given unto him much Incense, that he should offer it with the Prayers of all Saints upon the golden Altar which was before the Throne. And the smoke of the Incense which came with the Prayers of the Saints, ascended up before God out of the Angel's hand. Now this Incense offered up, with the Prayers of the Saints on Earth, we may suppose are the Merits and Intercession of the Saints in Glory.  Theoph. 
And we may suppose, they are the Merits and Intercession of Christ, whom Primasius understands by the Angel in this place: we know it is said expressly, Heb. 9 24. That Christ is entered into the Holiest of all, into Heaven itself, to appear in the presence of God for us: and that by him we offer up to God continually our Sacrifices of Praise, Heb. 13. 15. and without all peradventure, he is most properly said to add Incense and sweet Odours to our Prayers and Praises, because for his sake only they are acceptable to the Father. However, I cannot but observe what a leap your Cardinal hath taken over all the New Testament to produce his first and chiefest Arguments out of the Revelations of St John, for the Saints hearing and presenting our Prayers unto God, purposely to involve himself and others in mysteries and visions, which can admit no clear Interpretation, neither become useful to lay the Foundation of a Doctrine which takes up the greatest part of the people's devotions in the Church, viz. of the Invocation of Saints. In a like case St Augustine cried out to the Donatists, 
a A Ferte aliquid quod non egeat Interpret.  Bring forth such proofs as want no Interpretation. Suppose I should undertake to prove That the Souls of the just departed are not in Heaven, neither do enjoy a perfect state in bliss, Rev. 6. vers. 9 etc. because when the fift seal was opened, St John saw under the Altar the Souls of the Martyrs, of them that were slain for the word of God and for the Testimony which they held, and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long O Lord Holy and true dost thou not judge and avenge our blood upon them that dwell on the earth, and white robes were given unto every one of them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and their Brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Suppose I should from the same Text urge, that the Martyrs do expressly pray for Divine vengeance upon their enemies; but no mention is made of any intercession for their Friends, you would not well approve Arguments drawn from such mysterious visions and Revelations; and therefore do not yourself make use of them. 
b Tom. 30. in Epistolis ad Paulinum, & ad Marcellam.  St Jerom tells us, That the book of the Revelations hath as many mysteries as words, and that the whole is to be understood in a spiritual sense, and not literal.  Phil. 
These things were certainly written for our Instruction, and Bellarmine very well argues, That if the Saints in Heaven and Martyrs do pray for judgement upon their Persecutors, much more for mercy and favour unto their friends and brethren, for they are more inflamed with charity, then with an eager thirst after revenge.  Theoph. 
I perceive most of the Arguments are probable diductions from Analogy and proportion, but we expect divine Authority to establish such a principle part of Worship which you make the Invocation of Saints.  Phil. 
We are not yet arrived at that point, but preparing the way unto it, showing the Saints in Heaven do understand our affairs and pray for us, and with your patience I will give other Texts to prove it.  Theoph. 
More pertinent I beseech you.  Phil. 
That passage of St Peter is full to the point. 2d of Pet. 1. 15. I will endeavour after my decease that ye may be able to have these things always in remembrance. Where the Apostle shows that after his departure he will endeavour for them.  Theoph. 
This feat Argument is Bellarmine's, and not St Peter, he hath changed the order of the words, and so by consequence their meaning. The Original Text manifests how the words should be read, not as you transport them. I will endeavour after my decease that you may be able to keep in remembrance, etc. But Thus 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  I will endeavour that every one of you may be able after my decease to have those things always in remembrance. And this endeavour he did use in the days of his flesh, in preaching the Gospel until his death, and leaving these Epistles as remembrancers. Bellarmine indeed hath the confidence to add to the Text his Paraphrase that it might serve his turn. 
b Dabo operam habere vos commendatos, sive in Animo post obitum.  I will endeavour to have you recommended, or in mind after my death. And yet it is observable how he concludes this Text, after all his patching, 
c Quam vis non sit evidens, est tamen probabile argumentum.  to be no evident, but a probable Argument. Whereas, as he hath shaped it, it is clear and demonstrative to his purpose, but his conscience checked him for his additions and transmutations, and so he would not lay any great stress upon it.  Phil. 
You will never leave your sinister Construction of his fair dealing, but I hope his next Argument has evidence enough, That if Dives in Hell was solicitous for his Brethren upon earth, and prayed Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them lest they should come into the same place of Condemnation, much more are the Saints in Heaven solicitous for their Brethren, the Church Militant, and pray for their protection and assistance.  Theoph. 
Your Arguments a majori will not hold without some Authority to support them. This of the rich glutton is but a feeble Crutch, 
d Justin. Eucherius, Cyril. Chrysost.  many Intepreters take the whole passage to be a parable not an History, and 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Theophylact upon the place reckons the other, (that it is an History) a foolish conceit. Now you know the maxim, 
f Parabolae non sunt argumentativae.  parables are no Argumentative Topick, neither are they Narratives of things done, but similitudinary representations to fix some Doctrines more sensibly and effectually in men's minds. Again, if it were an Historical relation of matter of fact, it would not prove the point; That Dives beindead and in Torment knew the affairs of this world. Only he was sensible that he had given an example of voluptuousness and uncharitableness unto his brethren, and that their sins would contribute unto his Torment; and therefore he was solicitous to have them reclaimed. When he shall urge his example for the Invocation of Saints, I will answer, That you bring an ill precedent to confirm a Doctrine of the Church; and withal when Abraham or any of the Saints in Heaven shall undoubtedly appear and commune with you, you may desire their assistance.  Phil. 
Bellarmine hath one material proof that the Saints in Heaven do pray for the faithful upon earth; because the Church militant and triumphant do make one mystical body whereof Christ is the head. And so there 
g Ibid. Communio illa exigit necessario, ut membra pro invicem sint sollicita & mutuo se juvent.  must be a Communion between the members, making them solicitous mutually to help one another.  Theoph. 
He might have spared to urge the necessary mutual assistance; for we do not pray for the Saints in Heaven, neither are we solicitous for them who are immutably blessed, and of their affection towards us, their fellow members, militant upon earth, we do not doubt; neither of their prayers for the Church in general, That she may be victorious over all her Enemies, as also for the filling up the number of the Elect, and their Consummation in bliss, but this will not infer their distinct knowledge of things here below, or make for your Doctrine of Invocation. For you know the Saints militant over all the world are fellow members, and mutually solicitous for one another, and yet one National Church doth not invocate another in her public offices.  Phil. 
I pray give me leave to make the Inference when I have sufficiently fortified the premises, you run away with the argument before it is perfect, and so conclude it is invalid. For you shall find that our Doctors do not only prove how the Saints in Heaven pray in general for the Church militant, and for the Saints on earth; but that they pray particularly for them, for that is Betlarmines' next position. 
a Ibid. Sancti qui regnant in coele crant pro nobis etiam in particulari.  The Saints in Heaven pray for us in particular.  Theoph. 
Be pleased to let us here his Arguments.  Phil. 
He proves the Angels, have a special charge over us in particular, and pray for us; and therefore much more the Saints in Heaven do so.  Theoph. 
How doth he prove his much more, I doubt it will prove at length much less, and the whole Argument a non sequitur.  Phil. 
His reasons seem demonstrative, our Saviour saith, the Saints in Heavin are as the Angels. Luk. 20. vers. 36. They always stand in the presence of God, and most affectionately love us; and therefore want neither understanding or will to be assistant unto their brethren upon earth. And in one regard they may surpass the Angels in a promtitude to succour us, in that they have a nearer relation to us as their flesh and blood, and have had experience of our dangers and sorrows, and so are the rather qualified to compassionate our infirmities.  Theoph. 
Our blessed Saviour shows how the Saints in Glory are like unto the Angels, and equal to them in respect of their Immortality, (for they can die no more) and in that they neither marry nor are given in Marriage, as you may observe the place, but there is no demonstration the comparison should hold in all things: and doubtless before the Resurrection, and the joyful union between the Spirits of just Men and their glorified bodies; they are in some state of imperfection; their appetite of Union being not fulfilled, and therefore you may observe our Saviour spoke of the Saints in the Resurrection expressly, as to their likeness and Equality with the Angels, and concludes not any thing before. They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world and the Resurrection from the Dead, neither Mary nor are given in Marriage; Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the Angels. Luk. 20. vers. 35. 36. That they want neither knowledge nor affection to assist us and take a charge of us, although we should grant (to avoid disputes) yet we do not read they have such a Commission from God to attend us, as have the Angels. It is written Ps. 34. 7. The Angel of the Lord tarries round about them that fear him and delivereth them. Again. Ps. 39 11 He has given his Angels charge over thee. It is written. Matt. 18. 10. In Heaven their Angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven. Again Heb. 1. 14. Are they not all Ministering Spirits sent forth to Minister for them who shall be heirs of Salvation? Produce such Autorities for the glorious Saints ministry and assistance, and we will yield your consequence, that because the Angels of Heaven have charge over the people of God upon earth, the Saints have likewise. It is written 1 Thes. 4. 16. That at the voice of the Archangel and the sound of the trump, the dead shall rise. That the Son of Man shall send his Angels at the last day to gather the elect, and sever the wicked from the just, the chaff from the corn. Matt. 13. Dare you ascribe this office likewise unto the Saints in glory? And therefore your Argument from the Angels to the Saints is groundless, a mere invention of man, without any warrant from God's word. Wherein it appears that the Angels are Gods messengers, and Ministers between Heaven and earth; but not so the Saints departed. Now as God Almighty imploys the Angels, so he imparts unto them the knowledge and understanding of affairs below, so far as concerns their business; and as they attend the Saints upon earth, so they know much of their condition. And so they rejoice at the conversion of a sinner. But we read not a syllable of the Saints in Heaven, of their knowledge, or their Joy, and therefore you can draw no good consequence from one to the other.  Phil. 
You conclude well upon your own suppositions, but take our Doctors along with you, and you will find That God hath committed the charge of the Church militant, and the Saints upon earth as well to the Saints as to the Angels of Heaven, 
c Bell. Ibid. A spiritibus beatorum regi & gubernard fideles, etc.  and that the faithful are governed and conducted by the Spirits of the Blessed.  Theoph. 
Show their substantial proofs, and not their confident assertions.  Phil. 
You read how the Son of God makes a faithful promise. Revel 2. vers. 26. 27. He that overcometh and keepeth my words unto the end, to him will I give power over the Nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of Iron, as the vessel of a potter shall they be broken in pieces. Again Rev. 3. 12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of God (to uphold his Church) and I will grant to him to sit with me on my throne (to rule and govern, with Christ his Church, and to preside over the world) now Bellarmine proceeds to show how these promises are made to the Saints after this life; because they are made to him that overcometh all the Temptations of life, and keepeth Christ's word until death. And that this government belongs to them before the general Resurrection appears from that expression. He shall cule them with a rod of Iron, and shall brake them as a potter's vessel. These words imply a pastoral regiment; the original is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he shall feed them as a Shepherd his sheep, and it is called an Iron rod, because inflexible from the rule of justice, and therewith the refractory shall be broken in pieces, the same expressions are given of Christ. Rev. 12. 5. She brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron.  Theoph. 
Methinks your Doctors in there deep Theology fetch their proofs most from the Revelations of St John. Your Doctrine of the Saints in Heaven governing the World and the faithful upon earth, knowing our state, and hearing our prayers, is a great mystery, (I had almost said) of Iniquity, and you chiefly confirm it from some mysterious passages in the Revelation, an Argument you want plain and positive proofs, and therefore fly unto obscure and figurative and mystical expressions. All these promises, you have mentioned, made to the Saints persevering unto the end serve to show their state of transcendent blessedness and glory above their fellows, who in this life were inferior to them in their sufferings, and in their graces. Like those in the parable who according to the improvement of their Talents had authority given them over many Cities. Luk. 19 Or like the blessed servant, whom the Lord at his coming shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. Mat. 24. 47. He shall place him in great honour saith Euthimius upon the place; and he gives a caution that we should not inquire too far and with too much curiosity into these things: nor collect any thing from such parabolical expressions, but what they necessarily imply. After the like manner Theophylact upon the place, He 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  shall share in the more Honourable recompenses, to wit, in the Kingdom of Heaven: for the Saints are Heirs of all that appertain to God. And so run the general Interpretations upon the ten Cities, etc. Among the Ancients we find no mention of this conceit, That Christ communicates the charge of his Church and people, and the government of the world before the day of judgement unto the Saints in glory.  Phil. 
However his proofs out of scripture may sail him, Bellarmine abundantly shows from the Testimony of the Fathers, that the Saints in Heaven do govern and take charge of the Saints on earth; and are therefore in this regard likewise equal with the Angels.  Theoph. 
I will take the Testimony of the Ancient in due season, but I first desire to hear all the Arguments together out of the Holy Scripture proving That the Saints do particularly pray for us, and that we must pray to Them, for I suppose the foundation of this Doctrine must be sure laid in the word of God, or else all will fall to the ground.  Phil. 
The Doctrines of our Church are very consonant unto the Scripture, and out of them you will find sufficient proof of our duty to call upon the Saints in Heaven.  Theoph. 
Make that good, and I shall undoubtedly become your convert.  Phil. 
Remember this when we draw towards a conclusion: mean while I will not spare to give the premises and proofs. Bellarmine undertakes to prove expressly 
b Quod Sancti, sive Angeli sive homines piè ac utiliter à viventibus invocantur.  That the Saints in Heaven, whether Angels or men are piously and profitably called upon by us who are Living.  Theoph. 
Can you tell the reason why he puts his proposition in such unusual terms, the common distinction is of the Angels and Saints in Heaven, but he calls them Angels and men, and both by the name of Saints.  Phil. 
You cannot deny but that Angels are Holy Persons, and by consequence that they are Saints.  Theoph. 
It is not material what they are by consequence, but you know the Angels are not commonly called Saints, when you propose to speak of the Saints in Heaven, none will understand you of the Angels, and then for the other member of the distinction 
c Sive Angeli sive homines.  Men, the Souls of just Men departed, are not men. The man is dead, his immortal Spirit lives, and upon this Account when you call upon Peter and Paul to pray for you, alas, Peter is dead, and Paul is dead, their blessed Spirits are with God, but not their Persons, before the general Resurrection.  Phil. 
These are but frivolous exceptions, do not betray your fears by diverting me from the Cardinal's proofs. First he allegeth that plain Text for the Invocation of Angels: Gen. 48. 16. The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the Lads. You see the Holy Patriarch Jacob invocates the Angel's blessing upon joseph's two Sons Ephraim and Manasseh.  Theoph. 
It is jacob's Option, not a formal Invocation: his desire, not his prayer, we may suppose rather that Jacob sends up his hearts desire to God, that the Angel which did always deliver him might be a Guardian to these Lads, when Isaac blessing Jacob said, Gen. 27. vers. 29. Let the people serve Thee and Nations bow down to Thee: doth he therefore invocate Nations and People, or rather pray to God that he would bring it to pass? This answer sufficeth, if Jacob by the Angel understood a created Spirit; but the context makes it evident That the Angel stands for Christ the second person of the Sacred Trinity, because he is joined in this Benedicton with the God of Abraham. God before whom my Fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God that fed me all my life long until this day, the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the Lads. Observe I pray what great 
d Oratione quarta contra Arrianos.  Athanasius saith to this place, having proved the unity of the Father and the Son because they are joined in the same prayer. 1 Thess. 3. 11. Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ direct our way unto you. He proceeds to declare, That no man can pray to receive any thing from the Father and from an Angel or any other creature, no man will say let God and the Angels give Thee, and then directly answers this Benediction of the Patriarch. That he did not join a created Angel, with God that made him, in the blessing; neither forsaking him that nurisht him, doth he seek for an Angel's blessing upon the children, but styling him the Angel that delivered him out of all his troubles, he manifests that he did not understand any created spirit, but Christ the word, whom he joins with God the Father in the blessing, knowing that he is called The Angel of his great Council. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, according to the Septuagint. Herunto agrees 
a Thes. l. 30. cap. 10.  Cyrill of Alexandria. The Patriarch of God, means the Father, and by the Angel, the word of the Father whose name is the Angel of his council. 
b Hemil. 66. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Chrysostom makes God and the Angel to be the same, whose benediction Jacob implores. A graceful Soul to God, saith He, how doth he retain the memory of his favours fixed in his heart? He that nurisht me from my youth hitherto, he that delivered me out of all evil, bless these Lads. 'Tis much the Learned Cardinalshould take no notice of these signal Autorities; but bring a Text, in two regards, impertinent to his purpose as you have heard, to prove the Invocation of Angels, which would not however infer the Invocation of Saints departed. Because Angels are God's ministering Spirits, and more constant in the affairs here below, then are the Saints in Heaven, of whose Ministry upon earth we have no account given in the Holy Scripture, only that they sing and Bless God and worship him incessantly in Heaven.  Phil. 
Give me leave to proceed and show how our Doctors prove the Invocation of Angels, and then I will manifest likewise how it confirms the Invocation of Saints, Bellarmine brings three Texts out of the book of Job, to show the early usage of praying to the Angels. Job. 5. 1. Call now if there be any to answer thee, and to which of the Saints wilt thou turn. Job. 19 21. Have pity upon me have pity upon me O my friends, for the Hand of the Lord hath touched me. Job. 33. 23. If there be a Messenger with him, an Interpreter one of a thousand to show unto man his uprightness, Then he is gracious unto him and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit, for I have found a ransom.  Theoph. 
If these be proofs, nothing can miss the mark, if calling be invocating, and Saints be Angels, than the first Text may stand the Cardinal in some stead, and Eliphaz his Authority must uphold it. But the context shows the meaning of the words, Eliphaz would have Job inquire and call any one that fears God to witness whether any perished, being Innocent. Chap. 4. vers. 7. or whether a man can be more pure than his Maker. Vers. 17. Job had complained sadly of his affliction; and his friends designed to put him upon the search, whether these severe Judgements did not fall upon him for some secret sins. The second proof is as wide from the mark, as Heaven from the earth, his three friends did persecute his Innocency with their grand error and mistake, That God never afflicts but for sin; and Job intreateth them to spare and pity him. For why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh? as it follows in the next. vers. 22.  Phil. 
Bellarmine shows how St Augustin in his Commentary upon Job refers both these Texts unto the Angels.  Theoph. 
Read St Augustin in his second book of Retract. c. 13. and you will find him doubtful whether he should call it his book (Liber, cui titulus Annotationes in Job, utrum meus habendus est haud facile dixerim.) Or rather his who collected his imperfect notes, he tells us his own copy was so faulty, ut emendare non possim, nec editum à me dici vellem. And withal he asserts nothing, but only saith, here Job seems to call upon the Angels, or the Saints that they would pray for him being penitent. Angelo's postulare videtur, aut certè Sanctos, ut pro paenitente orent. Now Bellarmine himself will not grant the Saints deceased in those days should be invocated, besides the literal sense which I have given is clear, and therefore we look not further to the Allusions of Interpreters. The third proof is a Text full of obscurity: fit for the Cardinal to amuse his reader with out of the Original we read. A Messenger or Interpreter one among a thousand; who should show unto Man his Duty, and bring him to repentance, and pray for him, that the Lord, may spare him. As Isaiah prayed for Hezekiah being sick saith Jerom. Gregory the Great found no advantage or proof out of this Text for the Invocation of Saints or Angels although he favoured the opinion, but interprets that of Christ's Intercession. The Septuagint mention a thousand Angels but not to your Cardinal's purpose, but against it, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. If there were a thousand destroying Angels, yet not one of them shall wound him, if he seriously purposeth in heart to return unto the Lord. And thus you see what blind arguments your Doctors urge to maintain their delusions; if you are not better provided to prove the Invocation of Saints, than you have been of Angels, I could wish you to study our case, and the reputation of your Doctors, by concealing them.  Phil. 
You are very pleasant, but I shall make you change your note, you read how Moses did beseech God to spare his people for the sake and merits of their forefathers. Remember Abraham and Isaac and Israel thy Servants, to whom thou swearest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the Stars of Heaven, etc.  Theoph. 
In this Text Moses prays to God, not to Patriarches, and therefore it doth not confirm your Doctrine of Saints Invocation.  Phil. 
It shows that they did allege the merits of the Saints departed as an help and advantage unto their prayers, as Theodoret upon the place, when Moses thought himself insufficient to appease the wrath of God, he takes in the patronage of the Holy Patriarches. Therefore if they had not the benefit of their prayers (as not being in the presence of God) they did reap the fruits of their merits.  Theoph. 
There is a great mistake in this argument, Moses doth not urge the merits of their forefathers: but the Covenant God was pleased to make with them, that he would multiply their seed, and give them possession of the promised Land. Of this promise he puts the Lord in remembrance that he would please to spare his people, and perform the promise made to their forefathers. So God promiseth unto the righteous, that he will bless their seed unto many Generations, Exod. 20. 6. Yet their children do not urge their Father's merits, but the gracious covenant of God. As for the Testimony of Theodoret, Bellarmine hath made it to his purpose, by interposing Patrocinium 
a Faciens Patriarcharum mentionem.  Patriarcharum the patronage of the Patriaches, instead of making mention of the Patriarches, and of the Covenant with them made, beseeching God not to break the Covenant: for these are Theodoret's words.  Phil. 
The Cardinal shows this general answer touching God's Covenant with the Patriarches to be insufficient, 
b Pactum Dei, & justitia Sanctorum simul commemorantur.  because we shall find express mention made of their righteousness, together with the Covenant, Lord remember David, and all his meekness, Psal. 132. 1. and ver. 10. For thy servant David's sake, turn not away the presence of thine Anointed, saith Solomon: For David's sake, and not only for the Covenant made with David.  Theoph. 
Express mention of that Covenant immediately follows: The Lord hath made a faithful oath unto David; Of the Fruit of thy Body shall I set upon thy seat: As though he should have said, Lord, seeing thou were graciously pleased to make a Covenant with my Father David, be pleased, upon the same Motives, to make good that Promise. As for the first part, Remember David, and all his mansuetude and virtue; so your vulgar Translation reads it: But according to the Original it is thus rendered, Remember David and all his troubles. And then immediately follows, David's vow to build an House unto the Lord; and Gods Promise, That one of his Sons should build him an House: in remembrance whereof, Solomon puts up his Supplication. And after all, you may consider how these Texts are impertinently urged, making nothing for the Invocation of Saints: the consideration of their Merits, may fall in more seasonably hereafter.  Phil. 

c Ib. c. 19 Hoc. Argumentum Adversarii nunquam solvere potuerunt.  Bellarmin hath one Argument more for the Invocation of Saints, grounded upon the Word of God, which he accounts unanswerable: It is this, We read, the Faithful have requested the Prayers of the Saints living. God himself sends Jobs three Friends to him, to intercede for them, Job 42. St. Paul beseecheth the Saints at Rome to help him with their Prayers, Rom. 15. 30. and the like in many of his Epistles: Therefore, saith the Learned Cardinal, it is lawful, even now, to call upon the same Saints reigning with Christ: For if it be not as lawful to call upon them for the assistance of their Prayers now they are with God in Heaven, as when they were living upon Earth, It is either because, First they are not willing; or 2ly, are not able to pray for us; or that because 3dly, They cannot hear and receive our Prayers: or 4thly, Because their Intercession would be injurious to the Intercession of Christ. The two first cannot be supposed, because their Charity in Heaven is intended and enlarged, and their Prayers more effectual: neither the third, Because as the Angels in Heaven know our state, and can hear our Prayers, so likewise the Blessed Saints: nor the fourth, Because as the Intercession and Prayers of the living for their Brethren, and for all men, are not injurious unto Christ's Intercession, so neither are the Prayers of the Saints departed.  Theoph. 
Alas! This Achilles will prove a very Dwarf: Your Cardinal's unanswerable Argument is of no force. First, To answer it in general, we must tell you, That we have no warrant in Holy Scripture, either of Precedent or Precept, to recommend ourselves unto the Prayers of the dead, as we have of the living; and therefore the consequence holds not good from one to the other. Bellarmine knew this well, and was so wise to take no notice of it; yet it is the main hinge whereupon our regular Devotions must turn, even the rule of Holy Scripture, wherein God hath revealed how, and to whom we must direct our Prayers. His Argument of four horns hath little strength; but could he have added to them this fifth Horn, That the Word of God approveth the Invocation of the dead as of the living, we must have fled before it. But alas! all the attemts to confirm this Doctrine of your Church out of Holy Writ, have proved so unsuccessful, that some of your own Doctors have had so much Ingenuity, as to acknowledge. That it is not expressly delivered in Holy Scripture. So 
a Invocatio Sanctorum non expresse traditur in Script.  Eccius, in his Enchiridion of Catholic Confession, and therefore it must pass for an unwritten Tradition, whereof Martin Peresius confesseth, we have 
b De Trad. p. 3. consid. 7. Ne vestigium ante divum Cyprianum.  no footsteps before Cyprian.  Phil. 
Peresius gives a rational account (together with others) why the Holy Apostles did not lay the foundation of this Doctrine: It was, say they, 
c Causa erat humilitas & mod. Apostolorum, sneeze Deos facerent.  out of their great humility and modesty, lest they should appear to establish in the Church their own Apotheosis, make themselves as Gods, by directing the People of God to put up their Supplications, after their decease, to them.  Theoph. 
Methinks, That which prevailed with the Apostles not to deliver this Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints, should likewise have prevailed with the Church never to have established it: and without doubt, had it been according to the will of God, and profitable to the Church, the Holy Apostles would never have conceled it out of modesty and humility. St Paul declares expressly to the Church of Ephesus, Acts 20. 19, 20. That serving God with all humility of mind, he had kept back nothing that was profitable unto them. And doubtless, it was presumption and pride which introduced this Error, though under show of voluntary humility: for if the Apostles were afraid to recommend themselves as Gods unto the People, by giving them directions to pray to them after their decease; the Pope, who undertakes to Canonize Saints, and to encourage the People of God to pray to them, in spite of the Apostles humility and fear, takes the boldness upon him to make them as God.  Phil. 
You make so many Excursions, that you come not to the Point: How do you answer the four Particulars of Beauties' Argument?  Theoph. 
I have already cut off the four Horns with one blow: He saith, That if we may not pray to the Saints departed, as well as desire their Prayers when living, it must be for one of those four causes forementioned; either they are not willing, or are not able to pray for us, or they cannot hear our Prayers; or their Intercession would be injurious unto Christ's Intercession: but I say is enumeration is lame and imperfect, for I have showed a fifth reason why not, because the Word of God obligeth not to one, as to the other: It requires, that we should desire the mutual assistance of one another's Prayers living, but not after our decease; all civil commerce being intercepted, by the will of God, between the living and the dead.  Phil. 
Do you reckon our Invocation of the Saints departed, a part of civil commerce: I thought it had been a Religious act and duty.  Theoph. 
I grant Prayer to be such, and therefore a part of Divine Worship to be given only to God: But that Invocation of Holy Men living (as you call it) or as I term it, That pious desire and request which one Christian makes unto another, that he may enjoy the benefit of his Prayers (from whence you draw an Argument for Invocation after their decease) that, doubtless, is a civil Request, wherewith Christians mutually call upon and oblige one another to remember them in their Prayers. So likewise the honour which Subjects yield unto their Prince, presenting their Petitions with bended knees, is civil. And so Children, begging the Blessing of their Parents: these are formally Civil, not Religious Acts. A good Christian indeed gives honour to his Prince, and to his Parents, not only upon a civil account, but also Religious, it being a duty required in the Word of God; yet the honour itself is civil; the motive unto us wherefore we give it, is Religious, the will and command of God.  Phil. 
You are willing to involve the Discourse with subtle Notions and nice Distinctions: Such honour as you give to Princes and Parents, vouchsafe to the Saints in Glory, begging the assistance of their Prayers upon your knees, and it shall suffice.  Theoph. 
Yourself caused this Digression: You supposed the Invocation of Saints departed, to be a Religious act; and so in truth you generally make it, a great part of your Religion. I have showed how the desire and request which Christians make to one another, whilst they are in the Flesh, mutually to be remembered in their Prayers, is a civil request, and therefore no sufficient ground for your Religious Invocation of the Saints in glory. But at length, you are content we should make the same civil Requests to the Saints in Heaven for their Prayers, as to the Faithful who are living: You may observe it generally, such as are in the wrong, will accept of any composition: But we cannot grant it for this reason, because Death intercepts all civil Obligations and Commerce between Persons. Parents, when they are dead, cease to be provident for their dear Children, and these expect it not from them: The rich Man departed, cannot relieve the poor, nor lend him Money at his need. You formerly did urge, there was a communion between the Church Militant and Triumphant; but that is mystical, as Fellow-members of Christ's Body: But the civil communion between Brethren and Neighbours, and the relation of Parents and Children, Masters and Servants, Princes and Subjects, Husband and Wife, is interrupted altogether by death; and so by consequence, all those acts which depend upon, or flow from that communion: That Children should ask their Father's Blessing after his decease, I never yet did read your Doctors have asserted.  Phil. 
I am well confirmed by these your Digressions, That notwithstanding you would appear to slight Beauties' Argument, and pretend to cut off all the four Horns at one blow, by giving a general answer; yet in truth, you do warily decline the force of it, and are not willing to come to the four Particulars whereupon he hath insisted, That seeing the Saints departed are as willing and as able to help us now with their Prayers, as when they were living amongst us; and seeing they know our state, and can hear and receive our Addresses to them, and seeing their Intercession now for us is not injurious to the Intercession of Christ, therefore we have as much and more reason to Invocate them now in Heaven, then when they were conversant with us upon Earth.  Theoph. 
Not excluding the confutation already given, I will now take these four Particulars into consideration: The two first may easily be granted (if there could be mutual communion between them and us) That the Saints departed have as much charity to pray for us, and that their Prayers are as prevalent with God: But alas! Death hath intercepted former commerce. And his third Particular must be well proved, or all will fall to the ground, namely, That the Saints in Heaven do hear our Prayers, and know our particular needs; otherwise, it will be in vain to call for their assistance. And this main Point, your Cardinal doth but slightly touch, and gives a short and fallible proof of it: That because the Angels know the conversion of a sinner, and rejoice thereat, according to the saying of our Blessed Saviour, therefore likewise the blessed Saints do know our state, and all our concerns. Now we have already showed, how the Consequence is weakly drawn, from the knowledge of the Angels to the knowledge of the Saints in Heaven; because the Angels are Gods Messengers, ministering unto the heirs of Salvation; they are employed about us, and know much of our concerns: but of the Saints departed, no such things are recorded. And moreover, doubtless the Angels themselves know not all the affairs of particular persons, only of those about whom they are employed, and so far as God shall impart to them in their Embassage and Employments.  Phil. 
As they know the Conversion of every Sinner that repenteth, and rejoice; so do they know and hear the Prayers of all the Faithful, especially such as do concern them, and are particularly directed to them.  Theoph. 
We are much in the dark as to the measure and extent of their knowledge, and must not in these things so much above us, set one foot forward, without the light, and conduct, and revelation of God's Word. Now we read in Holy Writ, That the Angels have charge over us, according as God has committed us unto them, but how far, and in what particulars, is not revealed. We read, They rejoice at the Conversion of a Sinner; which way soever, or whensoever, for the improvement of their joy, God is pleased to manifest it unto them, perhaps, by the relation of those Angels who were instrumental in the Conversion. But from those Promises, we cannot infer their universal Knowledge of Affairs here below, and much less the universal Knowledge of the Saints in Heaven. Methinks the Learned Cardinal should not so peremtorily have handled this grand Point, upon which depends the Invocation of Saints; for if they hear us not, in vain certainly do we make our Prayers to them: If they understand not our condition, they cannot recommend it unto God. If St Peter knows not of any such Person as Philodoxus in being, to no effect shall we beg his assistance.  Phil. 
Not so neither: 
d Ibid. c. 20. Non frustra Sanctos à nobis Invocari etiamsi nec audiant, nec agnos●ant preces nostras, aliquis alius eorum vice fungitur.  Bellarmin expressly affirms, That we do not pray for them in vain, although we shall grant they know not, neither hear our Prayers: for, saith he, some other may perform their office, and we obtain the favour. For many miraculous Instances are given in Church Records, of many that have obtained their Requests, whilst they have applied themselves unto the Intercession of some Saint; and therefore, so we obtain our desires whilst we pray unto them, it is not material whether they hear, or not, it will concern us to call upon them.  Theoph. 
He had done well to point out this Aliquis alius: Who is this Delegate of the Saints in Heaven, to do their work, whilst themselves hear not our Prayers? Whilst we Invocate the Saints, do the Angels help us? The surest way then, would be to apply ourselves to them: Doth God help us, when we pray to the Saints? (although it is high presumption to make God the Saints Delegate, qui eorum vice fungitur) however, if God helps such as pray to the Saints, the most compendious course would be to call directly upon him: and so did Christians in the Primitive and purest Times, Ad memorias Martyrum, at the Shrines and Monuments of Martyrs they did pray to God, who was pleased to work many miraculous Cures at their Tombs, in Testimony of the Faith which those Martyrs sealed with their Blood. And this is the just account of the Miracles wrought by the Saints and Martyrs in Heaven, at their Shrines here on Earth. The Miracles were wrought by Almighty God, before the Monuments of the Saints, themselves not knowing of it; as we shall show hereafter out of St Augustine his Book, De cura pro Mortuis. And yet from this Assertion of Bellarmin (wherein I suppose he stands single) That we pray not to the Saints in vain, although they do not hear us. From this Assertion we must conclude him very inconsiderable and forgetful, when immediately after he approves this Consequence, 
e Sancti recte in vocantur, ergo sciunt quod petimus.  The Saints are immediately called upon, therefore they know what we ask. One Supposition destroys the other: If we may prudently and successfully pray to them, although they hear us not; it cannot follow, That if we rightly call upon them, they do hear us.  Phil. 
The first Assertion of Bellarmin was by way of supposition not granted, although they hear us not, yet we may profitably pray to them: but he positively maintains, That the Saints know humane affairs, and do hear our Prayers, 
f Quae solo cordis assectu proferuntur.  even such as are made only in the Heart; although there may be some dispute how they know and hear, etc. and he gives you the several Opinions of the Doctors.  Theoph. 
His former Supposition, as we call it, was ill put, because it directly overthrows the Consequence which he immediately after approves: That because the Saints in Heaven are rightly Invocated, therefore they do hear us. But I pray proceed to show, how the Saints attain unto the knowledge of things beneath, and even of our mental Prayers.  Phil. 

g Ibid. c. 20.  Bellarmin proposeth four Opinions of the Doctors, about the manner how the Saints in Heaven know Affairs beneath, and hear the Prayers that are made unto them. The first, That they know them by the relation of Angels, who are Messengers between Heaven and Earth. The second, That both Angels and Saints are in a sort every where present by the celerity and agility of their natures, and so they understand the Affairs of the world, and hear our Prayers. And he citys St Augustin for the first Opinion, and Jerome for the second.  Theoph. 
He citys them very faintly, Innuit Augustinus, saith he, St Augustin intimates so much in his Book, De cura pro Mortuis: and there indeed the Father tells us, The dead may hear of Affairs on Earth, by the relation of Angels; but he affirms not they do so: and then they may hear some things related 
h Non quidem omnia sed quae sinuntur indicare.  but not all things. And afterwards he declares, Fatendum est, etc. We must acknowledge that the dead do not know the things that are done upon Earth. I shall give you a full account of this Book hereafter. Next for St Jerome, Bellarmin saith, he seems to say as much in his Book against Vigilantius, where in truth the Father doth assert of the evil Angels, That they wander far and wide thro-out the World, and by their celerity are every where present. But we must of necessity understand him only in a comparative sense; their agility and swiftness makes them instantly to pass from place to place, whereas gross Bodies required a slow, and successive motion; but Ubiquity and Omnipresence is an Attribute of God, Incommunicable to a Creature. Again, These evil Angels may be conceived present in all places by their numbers and multitude, not by their individual persons.  Phil. 
But 
i Si Agnus est ubique, ergo & high qui cum to sunt, ubique sunt.  St Jerome in that Book argues fully for the ubiquity of the Saints in Heaven, because it is written of them, That they follow the Lamb whither soever be goeth, Rev. 14. 4. And if the Lamb be every where present, therefore they that are with him.  Theoph. 
This Argument cannot hold; for then much more the human Nature and Body of Christ, united unto the Divine Nature, should be omnipresent, which I know none to assert, and therefore St Augustins' Interpretation of that place, is this, 
k Lib. de Sancta Virginit. c. 27. Quid est eum sequi, nisi imitari?  To follow him, is to imitate him; not as he is the only Son of God, by whom all things were made, but as he is the Son of Man, giving us an example of all things necessary to be sollowed. Bellarmin knew well the Invalidity of St Jeromes consequence, and therefore did not urge it for an Argument.  Phil. 
But that you love to contradict and spin out your Discourse, you need not have perplexed yourself and me with these Answers: For you know Bellarmine approves of neither of these two ways of the Saints knowledge in Heaven, Because, saith he, celerity cannot suffice, but true ubiquity is required to hear all the Prayers that shall be made to a Saint, perhaps in all places of the World at the same time. And again, he saith, That neither Angels nor Saints in Heaven, although they were present with us, can naturally know our mental Prayers.  Theoph. 
We account these to be substantial Arguments against the Invocation of Saints and Angels, because they cannot be every where present to hear Prayers made from all parts, and because they know not our thoughts and mental Prayers.  Phil. 
But these are answered by the the two next ways he proposeth and approveth of the Saints comprehension and knowledge: One is, 
l Sanctos in Deo omnia videre, quae ad ipsos aliquo modo tertinent.  That the Saints do sec all things in God that concerns them, even from the first instant of their blessedness.  Theoph. 
I pray tell me, why doth the Cardinal (following Aquinas and other Schoolmen) put in that term of Limitation, In the Face of God they see and know all things that concern them. We know, all things are in God, and in him represented as in a Glass and Mirror: and therefore Pope Gregory the Great asks the Question: 
m Quid est, quod ibi nesciant ubi scientem omnia sciunt?  What can they be ignorant of, who know him that knoweth all things? And therefore, In speculo Trinitatis (as the Schools speak) in the Beatifical Vision, one would think all things should be manifest to the Saints and Angels, and not only such things as concern them.  Phil. 
The reason is plain: God is Speculum voluntarium, such a Glass as represents according to his good pleasure, and what he thinks meet, unto those who have the happiness to see his Face: And therefore the Angels, who always behold the Face of God, yet know not all things; not the day of Judgement; not the Mystery of Christ's Incarnation, and Man's redemption; not the calling of the Gentiles, etc. until they learned these things by the Preaching of the Gospel amidst the Congregation of the Faithful: so saith St Paul, Ephes. 3. 10. To the end that now unto Principalities and Powers in Heavenly places, might be known by the Church, the manifold Wisdom of God.  Theoph. 
Your Answer is rational, and excellently serves my purpose: Such as see the Face of God, do not, in that Beatifical Vision see and know all things, but only such things as pleaseth him to revele unto them. And therefore the fourth Opinion which Bellarmin mentions, was, That God doth revele unto the Saints, in every instant, such Particulars as concern them; and so, when Prayers are made unto them, the Lord makes the Blessed Saints to know and hear their Prayers, by particular Revelation. Hereupon, I demand how this is proved, That it is the good pleasure of God, constantly to revele unto the Saints whatsoever doth concern them; or all the Prayers that are made unto them.  Phil. 
I do not find the Cardinal attemts to prove this; because he had reason to take it for granted.  Theoph. 
Or rather because he had no proof to offer: and in truth, he doth not so well approve this way of particular Revelation from God to the Saints, because, as he argues well, 
n Si indigerent Sancti nouâ revelatione, Ecclesia non diceret omnibus Sanctis, Orate pro nobis, sed peteret aliquando à Deo ut eis revelaret preces nostras.  If the Saints know our Prayers which we make to them, by Revelation from God, we should not so constantly say to them, Pray for us; but rather sometimes beseech Almighty God, that he would please to revele our Prayers to those Saints we Invocate.  Phil. 
He prefers that Opinion as most profitable, That the Saints in Glory, always standing in the presence of God, and beholding his Face, do in that Beatifical Vision behold all things which rela●e unto them; and need no particular Revelation, and therefore, in the Vision of God, they know and hear the Prayers that are made unto them, even from the first instant of their Beatitude.  Theoph. 
And so three ways Bellarmin doth not approve whereby the Saints and Angels are concerned to know our state and hear our Prayers. Now the fourth which he sticks too, That from the first instant of their happiness, all things which concern them, are manifest and revealed unto them. This cannot be true, for then the Saints must know when they shall reassume their Bodies (which certainly concerns them) and so by consequence, They must know the Day of the general Resurrection, and of Judgement, which we deny: They must also know all the Prayers that shall be made to them unto the World's end, and so, by consequence, the end of the World. So must the Angels, from the beginning, know the Prayers that shall be made to them, the lapsed state of Man, and his redemption by Christ, and other Mysteries, which were made known unto them, saith the Apostle, in the Churches, by the Ministry of the Gospel. See Estius in 4. Sent. dist. 46. Paragr. 19 p. 294. And so while your Doctors, without any warrant of Scripture, generally lay this for a Foundation, That the Saints in Heaven do know our state, and bear our Prayers: when they come to the proof and confirmation, every one abounds in his own sense, and they easily confute one another's Reasons and Opinions, and manifest unto their Readers, upon due consideration, that they are full of uncertainties in the Point, which they take for granted, and can urge only fallible Arguments to confirm that which they would have received by all Men as a mesured Truth, but we have not learned to subscribe to men's Dictates. And you acknowledge, your Doctor makes not proof of his Assertion, which is a great defect, this being the main Hinge whereupon the Controversy turns. We conclude therefore, there is no reason we should call upon the Saints when they do not hear us; as a Child doth not ask his Father's Blessing when he is out of hearing. Now you assert with Bellarmin, That the Saints in Heaven out of doubt do hear us, but you know not how. It is probable, say you, that in the Face of God they see and know all things that concern them, but give no reason of that probability: and is it fit that a Doctrine of your Church, which takes up in that part the Devotion of all God's People, should be grounded only upon such a probability, whereof you can give no reason: How can I call upon the Saints with Faith and Comfort, when I have no assurance that they can hear me? I may, with as much reason, daily beg the Prayers of pious Friends, who live far from me, and say, It is probable God will revele to them that I desire the assistance of their Prayers.  Phil. 
Your Instance runs not parallel: Our condition here is a state of ignorance; their's a state of comprehension: They can see the Face of God, and live for ever: they certainly know all things which tend to their consummation in Bliss, for they are arrived at the state of Perfection, and perfect Knowledge is the foundation of their Happiness.  Theoph. 
The perfect knowledge of God is so: Here we know in part, saith the Apostle, 1 Cor. 13. ver. 12. but there we shall know as we are known; i. e. fully, perfectly: and this knowledge and Vision of God is Beatifical: But how doth this prove their knowledge of the necessities and Prayers of us poor Mortals here on Earth, whom they have le●t behind them in the vale of Misery; we may rather suppose, the wisdom of God hath excluded them from the knowledge of their Friends and Relations, and of miserable Man here beneath, lest it should prove a diminution of their Joy and Bliss. Your Angelical Doctor holds, 
o Aqu. part. 1. qu. 12. Art. 8. ad 4. Cognoscere singularia cogitata aut facta, etc. non est de perfect.  It belongs not unto the perfection of a created Intellect to know particulars, the thoughts or actions of Men. If God only be seen, it sufficeth to make men happy. As St Augustin, ● He is happy who knoweth Thee, although he have nothing else. In a word, Cardinals Cajetane was a Learned Advocate of your Church, and had studied the Point in hand much, and he concludes at last, That we have no assurance that the Saints know when we pray to them, although we piously believe it.  Phil. 
I well perceive you have a Spirit of contradiction, and please yourself, much in eluding such Arguments which our Doctors urge from Scripture, and reason, to prove the Doctrine of our Church touching the Invocation of Saints. I will therefore take a more convincing way unto such refractory persons, and plainly show, by matter of Fact, and express. Testimony of the Ancients, That this Doctrine hath been received in the Church Catholic from the beginning.  Theoph. 
I presume you mean not from the beginning of Christianity: you have heard how the attemt of your Doctors to prove it out of God's Word, hath been altogether unsuccessful: and some of your Doctors have confessed, that it is delivered in Holy Scripture very obscurely; and others have showed the reason, even the humility and modesty of the Apostles, which withheld them from publishing this Doctrine, lest they should appear to make themselves as Gods after their decease, by requiring the People of God to make their Prayers and Supplications to them. Seeing therefore your Doctrine is not sounded in the Holy Scripture, I could give a short Answer unto your pretended usage of the Church, and Testimony of the Ancient: That which St Augustin gave to Cresconius, urging the Authority of Cyprian, ʳ I am not bound to the Authority of this Epistle, for I do not hold the Writings of Cyprian as Canonical, but judge of them by the Canonical Scripture; and whatsoever is consonant to the Holy Scripture, I receive with praise; what agrees not, with his leave, 〈…〉 eject. If you could prove what you have urged, out of the Canonical Books of the Apostles and Prophets, I would not contradict: but seeing what you have is not Canonical, with that liberty, whereunto God hath called us, I do not receive his Testimony, whose due Praise I can never equal, with whose Writings I dare not compare mine own; whose Learning I embrace, whose 〈…〉 y I admire; whose Martyrdom is venerable. Again, St Augustin to the same effect elsewhere: It is not sufficient unto the Authority of Faith, and of the Dostrines of the Church, to say. Thus Esay, or thou fairest, or he saith; 〈◊〉, Thus saith the Lord. So the Blessed Martyr, Gyprian himself: We must not been what any one hath done before us, but what He, who is before all Ages, hath taught or communded to be done. Once more I could answer you out of Gratian, ᵗ A Custom, without the Word of God to back it, is not 
● B 〈…〉 qu● T 〈…〉 scit. etiamsi alia n 〈…〉 t.  
〈…〉 sec 〈…〉 secundie ●hem. qn. 88 Art. 5. Certaratione nescimus, an Sancti vota 〈…〉 se.  
〈…〉 2. contr, Cresconium. c. 32. Ego hujus Epistolae, etc.  
〈…〉 do sine verbo Lei, non esse veritatem sed vetustatem erroris.  Truth, but the Antiquity of Error. The Council of Cartbage resolved thus, ● The Lord said in the Gospel, I am Truth; He said not, I am Castom.  Phil. 
Can you so easily trample upon the Authority of the Fathers: You have formerly pretended much honour to the venerable Testimony of Antiquity, where you conceived it consonant unto your Principles, and now you would decline that Touchstone, because you know full well it is against you in this Point of the Invocation of Saints.  Theoph. 
These Sentences I have produced are of the Fathers; and seeing the Word of God doth not establish your Doctrine and Practice, the Authority of Man and Custom will prove too feeble to support it: And where I formerly produced the Authority of the Ancients in any Point, I first had laid the sure Foundation in the Word of God. However, it is not my purpose to interrupt your course, fortify your Doctrine as well you can, and I will attac it.  Phil. 
I believe so, you have resolved right or worng: But I shall startle you and your Reader, when you shall find the general Current of Antiquity allowing and practising the Invocation of Saints; and therefore it cannot be a damnable Doctrine  Theoph. 
Hitherto I have not so called it: but when I shall descend to a more particular consideration of those horrible Blasphemies we shall discover in the practice of this Doctrine, you wall give me leave to say, it hath proved destructive unto millions of Souls: mean while, let it pass for a Doctrine full of Superstition and Will-worship.  Phil. 
How easily do you make Councils and Fathers criminals, who have avowed the Doctrine. For Bellarmin first shows; how in the fourth General Council, that of Chalcedon, the Holy Fathers unanimously cried out, 
u Flavianus post mortem vivit. Martyr pro nobis oret.  Flavian lives after death. I et the blessed Martyr pray for us.  Theoph. 
This Council was held above 400 Years after Christ, and yet I did not expect to find so early a Testimony of the Bishops in such a General Council for your purpose: Give me leave therefore to search the 11th Session of that Council from whence Bellarmin brings the Testimony. In the third Tome of Tinius his Edition we shall find it, and now I pray let your own Eyes be Judges. In the Original Greek Copy there are no such words, only general Acclamations of the Council, unto the pious memory of Flavian: 
x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Let his memory be eternal; the memory of Flavian the Orthodox, etc. But the words which Bellarmin quotes, are by a Parenthesis inserted in the Latin, and nothing answers them in the Greek. This is a detestable Forgery, and I cannot conceive the Learned Cardinal was not ware of it: however, you see what need there is we should examine your Doctor's Quotations, and here you find he is extremely 
● Bin. Tom. 1. Concil. Carth. 3. p. 182.  deficient.  Phil. 
It seems the Latin Translator deceived him; and it is strange such a Clause should be put in, when there was nothing answerable in the Greek.  Theoph. 
Such leger de main is usual with some Zealots of your Church to uphold her Innovations.  Phil. 
Upon the least occasion given, you are very severe and uncharitable in your Censures: But what say you to his next Quotation of the Bishops of Europe to the Emperor Leo: We have ranked most holy Proterius in the Order and Choir of the Holy Martyrs, and we desire God, by his Intercession, to be merciful and propitious unto us. ᵃ Now you may understand, that Proterius was Patriarch of Alexandria, and injuriously thrust out by Timotheus; and afterwards, murdered by his Accomplices, whilst he did himself in the sacred Font of the Temple. Complaint was made hereof by the Egyptian Bishops, and the Clergy of Alexandria, to the Emperor, who communicated their Letters to the Bishop's thro-out his Empire, desiring them to give their Judgement of the Council of Chalcedon, against which Timotheus and his Faction had protested; and of the matter of Fact concerning Proterius his death, and Timotheus his Intrusion into the See of Alexandria: and among other things, the European Bishops in their Answer to the Emperor, give this account of Proterius, That his death was Martyrdom, and they desired the assistance of his Prayers.  Theoph. 
After this ingenious account given, your Testimony comes not home to your purpose. Observe the words, They import no Invocation of the Martyr Proterius, but a desire, That God would be merciful unto them, for his sake and Intercession.  Phil. 
They supposed therefore, That the Saints in Heaven do make Intercession, and pray for us.  Theoph. 
But why do you hereupon suppose, That we must pray to them? we deny not, That they generally pray for the Saints militant on Earth, for their Victory over all their Adversaries, Heretics, and Infidels, and Persecutors; and that every true Believer, thro' the goodness of God, may reap the benefit of their Prayers: but that we should pray to them, when we cannot be assured that they hear us, and when we have no warrant out of God's Word to do so, we dare not consent. And withal, in this Quotation, I pray observe another Artifice of your Doctor: he would have us believe, this was an Epistle to the Emperor, of all the European Bishops, whereas it was only of four Bishops, whose Subscription we find in Binius thus, John Bishop of Heraclea, Theophronius of Aphrodiasis, Theotecnus Episcopus Cyclensis, and Babulas Bishop of Theodosipolis. The other Bishops of Europe give their account to the Emperor in other Epistles: and so this Testimony which Bellarmin pretends to be of a Council, and entitles it to the European Bishops, sinks into a private Testimony of four Bishops of inconsiderable Dioceses, joining 
Bin. Tem. 3. part. 3. Concilin Chalcedon.  in one Epistle to the Emperor, and comes not up to the Point neither, of Saint's Invocation, as you have heard.  Phil. 
You lie at catch for some exception or other: But in the next place, Bellarmin brings an express Canon of the sixth general Council, 
a Can. 7. Solo Deo Create. adorato, etc.  Requiring us to call upon the Saints, that they would vouchsafe to intercede for us with the Divine Majesty.  Theoph. 
It is evident, That the fifth and sixth general Councils made no Canons, and the Learned generally acknowledge it: and therefore some Years after, the sixth general Council at Constantinople was held and concluded under the Emperor Constantine Pogonatus, and Pope Agatho, against the Heresy of the Monothelites. Jusinian the younger, summons a Council in the Registery of his Sacred Palace (which because of its famous, capacious Arch, was called Trullus; and the Council, Concilium Trullanum, the Council of Trullo) in the time of Pope Sergius, Anno Dom. 692. consisting of four Patriarches, and 215 Bishops, wherein were made 104 Canons, as a Supplement unto the former Councils which made none: and the Council was called, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
b Bin. Tom 5. p. 419. In notis ad consilium Ouini-sextum.  the fifth-sixth Synod, because it supplied what was wanting to them both.  Phil. 
This was indeed generally received, but some time after there were found nine Canons ascribed unto the sixth general Council, whereof this which Bellarmin quotes, is the seventh.  Theoph. 
Yes: Surius tells us, They were found in an old Manuscript of a Monastery in Gaunt: but he also declares, That they are falsely ascribed to the sixth general Council, as Binius shows, Tom 5. pag. 360. And here we may justly stand amazed, to find your Learned Cardinal cite this Canon as of the sixth general Council, when he could not be ignorant how that Council made no Canons; only he was willing to found the Doctrine of Saints Invocation upon the Authority of general Councils, and you see how shamefully he hath pretended to them: If this be the way to uphold their Church, Let not my soul enter into their Councils. Your Doctor citys likewise the next general Council, the second Council of Nice, of which I have given you formerly an Historical large account. It instituted the worship of Images, and did allow the Invocation of Saints; but this was held 800 Years after Christ, about which time this Superstitious Worship of the Saints was publicly avowed. From the general, Bellarmin proceeds to the Testimony of six Provincial Councils, which speak not to his purpose. They appoint the Litanies of their Churches to be solemnly used in the times allotted for them: now because the Saints are prayed to in their new Litanies, therefore your Cardinal supposeth, they were so in the old; and wheresoever he finds a command for the use of Litanies, there he infers Invocation of Saints commanded. And the Council of 
c Bin. Tom 6. Concil. Moguntinum. c. 32. Adrogandum Deum, etc.  Mentz is one of them which your Cardinal quotes; and that Council held under Charles the Great, Anno 813. tells us, That Litanies or Rogations are solemnly appointed to beseech the Lord, and implore his mercy; viz. when some diresul Calamities are eminent, not one word of calling upon the Saints.  Phil. 
Bellarmin in this place shows, how Walfridus Strabo, in the 8th Book of Ecclesiastical Affairs, chap. 28. declaring what these Litanies were, mentioned in these Councils, saith, 
a Litaniam, de qua agitur in bis Conciliis esse Sanctorum Invocationem.  They were the Invocation of Saints.  Theoph. 
Turn to the place, and you will not find it so: First, Strabo gives an account of the original and use of Litanies; and then for their matter, he saith, They are not only Invocations of Saints for help, 
b In adiutorium ●um. infirmitatis cuncta quae fiunt Orationibus.  but any Supplications to God are Litanies. He adds farther, That the Invocation of Saints was brought into the Litany after St Jeromes days: but how soon after, he asserts not, neither that those Councils which Bellarmin quoted, did include the Invocation of Saints: you have heard, how the Council of Mentz did rather exclude them. And therefore I pray now judge, upon a sober recollection, of the Cardinal's proofs from Councils: they are in part false, in part impertinent. It is almost incredible, that in less than one page he should manifest unto as many as shall examine him, so much deceit and imprudence; but we impute all to his desperate cause, which can be no otherwise maintained, then by imposing upon the unwary Reader. Farewell therefore unto the Testimony of Holy Scripture, and the Testimony of any Council for more than 700 Years after Christianity, unto your Doctrine of Saints Invocation.  Phil. 
I presume Bellarmin relied not much upon these Councils, as you observe, he huddled them up in few lines: but his Testimony from the Fathers, are numerous and significant.  Theoph. 
I presume, he well knew there was little in those Councils for his purpose; yet he was willing to make his credulous Reader believe, he had the Authority of all these Councils on his side: and I am much satisfied for my great trouble and pains, in the full discovery of the contrary, being destitute of any proof from Scripture and Councils, be pleased to produce his Allegations from the Fathers of the Church, for the Invocation of Saints departed.  Phil. 
He citys a full Testimony of Dionysius the Areopagyte, who lived in the Apostles days, 
c Ecclesiast. Hierarch. c. 7.  That as he who puts out his eyes in vain, desires the light of the Sun; 
d Sic qui Sanctorum preces flagitat, etc.  so in vain do we desire the Prayers of the Saints, whilst we live and act contrary to their purity.  Theoph. 
The passage refers rather to the Prayers of the Saints living, then of the Saints deceased: such as neglect holiness of Life, shall not be benefited by others Prayers. And he instanceth in samuel's Praying for Saul; and the design of that Chapter principally concerns the Rites of Burial in the Church, to show how our Prayers for the living, or for the dead at their Burial, avail nothing, except the Persons for whom we pray are worthy. And for a second answer, I must tell you this Book is falsely ascribed to Dionysius: it discovers itself to be written after the Nicene Council, as I may have occasion to prove hereafter.  Phil. 
However, Bellarmin takes his next Argument to be most evident. It is taken from the early Testimony of Ireneus: 
a Lih. 4. c. 19 ut Virgins Evae, Virgo Marin fieret Alvocata.  As Eve was tempted to turn from God, so Mary was well persuaded to obey him: That the Virgin Mary might prove the Advocate of the Virgin Eve, 
b Quidclarius.  What is more evident to the Point then this? saith the Cardinal.  Theoph. 
It is his Artifice to set out a weak Argument, with the greatest confidence, for this place doth not prove the Point: He should prove the Invocation of the blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints, and he attemts to show her Advocation.  Phil. 
If she be our Advocate, we ought to implore her Intercession.  Theoph. 
Not so neither; as you have been often told, the Saints in Heaven may pray for the Church in general; the Blessed Virgin for the Generations of Adam and Eve, and yet not hear our Prayers in particular, or be sensible of our condition. However, this Passage out of Ireneus proves not so much, That the Virgin Mary is the Advocate of the Virgin Eve, as the Father's words seem to declare: for the Blessed Virgin was not in being, until thousands of Years after Eve was a Virgin. Neither can you conceive, that now she makes Intercession for the Mother of all living. None of your Doctors can be so cruel, as to keep our Mother Eve so long in Purgatory. Ireneus his plain meaning is this, That as by the prevarication of the Virgin Eve, all her Posterity did suffer; so by the obedience of the Blessed Virgin to the Angel's Message, and by the Blessed Fruit of her Womb, all Man kind is comforted and relieved. We have not Ireneus his Works in Greek, as they were first written. Suppose his word, he made use of, was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, you know that signifies as well a Comforter as an Advocate. The Virgin Mary hath made amends for the transgression of her Sex in our Mother Eve. This is the sense of that comparison in the Father.  Phil. 
What sense you will fix upon his Words, I see must pass for currant. Bellarmin brings the Testimony of Pope Cornelius, in the third Century, between whom and St Cyprian there past many Letters. In the first Epistle, concerning the Translation of the Bodies of Peter and Paul, à Catatumbis, unto the places where they now lie interred, (one in the Vatican, the other in ulâ Ostens●) he hath this passage, Praying unto God and our Lord Jesus Christ, that by the Intercession of his two Holy Apostles, he would purge you from the stains and pollution of your sins.  Theoph. 
You see the Prayer is directed to God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and proves not the Invocation of these Apostles, but only their Intercession. But alas! this Epistle manifests itself to be counterfeit, one of your Roman Forgeries: the Argument of it, to wit, the translation of these Apostles Bodies to their place of Burial, is a mere Fiction, 
a Tom. 1. In Notis ad hanc Epistolam, & in Not. ad vitam Cornelii.  as Binius doth acknowledge, That it crept into the Epistle from the Lies and Errors of Damasus his Pontifical Book. And they are constrained to confess the Forgery, because the Apostles Corpse were removed to the places where they now lie, 200 Years before, as appears by the ample Testimony of 
b Epistolarum lib. 3. Epistola 30. ad Constantiam Augusiam.  Gregory the Great, who gives a full account of their translation, unto the Princess Constantia, After these Blessed Apostles were Martyred in Rome, some of the Eastern Christians came over to carry with them the Sacred Bodies of these Martyrs into their own Country; and having born them two miles from Rome, they rested at a place called Catatumbae: and when they attemted to take them up thence, and proceed in their Journey, they were so affrighted with dreadful Thundrings and Lightning, and forced to desist from their enterprise, and leave the Corpse behind them; which the Faithful at Rome soon brought back, and honourably interred in the Tombs wherein they now rest. 
c Anno Christi 221. num. 3, 4, 5, 6.  Baronius takes notice of all these Passages, and concludes, That the Epistle of Pope Cornelius is not so creditable, as the Epistle of Pope Gregory. And now I pray, what think you of this Fable of their translation in the time of Cornelius, and of the Epistle which relates it: Your Cardinal could not be ignorant of those things: but the Epistle, although grossly forged, must serve to fill up the small number of his early Testimonies.  Phil. 
Beauties' next Argument is taken out of Eusebius Caesariensis.  Theoph. 
I pray make not such haste, but take me along with you: Methinks you have soon passed over 300 Years of Christianity (for Eusebius lived in the fourth Century) and produced but three Witnesses, Dionysius, Ireneus, and Cornelius, and all falsified or insignificant: and therefore we will now take it for granted by the Cardinal, That in the three first Centuries, the Doctrine of Saints Invocation was not delivered by any good Authority. And now to keep even paces with you, we shall find out of Authentic Records of the three first Centuries, account given of the Christian Practice in the public Offices, without any Invocation of the Saints departed, by Justin Martyr, and by Tertullian, and other Apologists for Christians. And ᵉ Ignatius, a Disciple of St John, directs Holy Virgins to have Christ alone, and the Father before their eyes in their Prayers, being enlightened by the Spirit. Again, Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History, lib. 4. c. 15. sets down at large the Epistle of the Church at 
ᵈ Epistola 6. ad Philadelph. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Smyrna, to the Churches of Pontus, wherein account is given of Polycarpus their Holy Bishop's Martyrdom, and of his Prayer at the Stake: O Father of thy wellbeloved and Blessed Son Jesus Christ, thro' whom we have known thee. O God of the Angels, and Powers, and of all sorts of just Men which live in thy presence: I thank thee, that thou hast graciously vouchsafed this day and hour, to allot me a portion among the Blessed Martyrs, etc. You see here he acknowledgeth the Angels and Just Men to stand in the presence of God, yet offers up no Supplications to them. In the same Epistle there follows a notable passage, that the malicious Jews, and others of his Persecuters, desired the Proconsul, not to deliver his Bones to the Christians, lest they, leaving Christ, should worship them. But the Church answers, We can never forsake Christ, who died for the Salvation of the World, and we can worship none other. The Martyrs we love, as Disciples and Followers of the Lord; we gather up his Bones after his Body is burnt, more precious than Pearls, and bury them in a fitting place, where God-willing, we being assembled, the Lord will grant that with joy and gladness we may celebrate the 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Birthday of his Martyr, (the day of his death, being his Birthday unto Glory) both for the remembrance of such as have been crowned before, as also to the preparation and stirring up of such as shall strive. And this early practice continued long in the Church, to assemble at the Monuments of the Martyrs, and hold a thankful commemoration of their sufferings to the Glory of God, and for the encouragement and imitation of the Faithful, both to live and die in the Lord. Here are no tidings of the Invocation of Martyrs.  Phil. 
Seeing you will so exactly canvas the three first Centuries: I will also follow you out of my road, and show how Origin, in the third Century, acknowledgeth the Intercession of the Saints, and calling upon them for assistance; and therefore the Doctrine was early received. although Bellarmin urgeth not the Testimony of Origen, perhaps because in many things he is Erroneous, and was condemned by the fifth General Council, Justinian the Elder being Emperor.  Theoph. 
If his Works were condemned by a General Council, you cannot then say, His Doctrine and his Opinion was received in the Church: but however, take your course, and show where Origin teacheth the Invocation of Saints.  Phil. 
In that notable Lamentation of his, and repentance after he had, thro' fear, offered Incense to an Idol: wherein we have these Expressions, I will prostrate myself, and beseech all the Saints, That they would succour me, who dare not pray to God. 
b Sancti Dei vos deprecor, etc.  O ye Saints of God, I beseech you, etc. And lest you should pretend he called upon the Faithful in the Church, who were then living Members upon Earth, he proceeds, We unto me, Father Abraham, entreat for me, that I be not banished from thy bosom, Again, in his second Book of his Commentaries upon Job, he Prays, O blessed Job, pray for us.  Theoph. 
'Tis much your great Champion should let pass these notable Testimonies: But he well knew, as origen's Testimony would not be of any great Authority, so that these likewise are none of his. Pope Gelasius declares origen's Lamentation to be Apocryphal, and the Commentary upon Job appears to be written by some Arrian long after Origen's death. And for a farther Confutation, we shall find in his Works undoubtedly belonging to him, that although in some places he dubiously allows the Intercession of the Saints in Heaven for us Mortals, yet he no where approves their Invocation, but rather the contrary: 
a Hom. 3. In Cantieum Sol.  The Saints departed this life, saith he, having a great love for those who are in the World; it will be no inconvenience, if we say they have a care of our welfare, and do assist us with their Prayers and Intercession with God. Again, 
b In cap. 13. Josue, Ego sic arbitror, etc.  I am of the Opinion, That all the Fathers who are asleep before us, are helpful to us by their Prayers. And yet afterwards he accounts this Opinion of his Apocryphal 
c Lib. 2. In Epistolam ad Rom. Non procul à principio. , (as being not manifest by good Authority) If such as are without the Body, and now with Christ, do any thing for us after the manner of Angels who are ministering Spirits, 
d Habeatur inter occultanda mysteria nec chartulx committenda.  let this, as a Mystery, be conceled, and not published and committed to Paper.  Phil. 

e Ibid. c. 20.  Bellarmin takes notice of this Passage out of Origen, and answers, That he speaks of their daily and constant converse with us, which is not so certain, as that they know our state, and Pray for us: whereof Origen asks the Question, 
f Homil. 26. in Numb. Quis dubitet? etc.  Who doubts of it? That the Saints do help us with their Prayers. and confirm and encourage us by the example of their good Works.  Theoph. 
By degrees he proceeded from doubting to affirming: and yet the Assertion only maintains, That the Saints do pray for us in common, which we have not denied, but himself rejects the Consequence: That because the Saints do pray for us, therefore we should pray to them. 
g L. 8. Contra Celsum.  For when Celsus had objected, That it could not displease the Supreme Deity, if inferior Demons, as Friends of God, should be worshipped and implored to become the Advocates of poor Mortals with him. Origen answers, That Christians acknowledge no such Demons, but know that the Angels are Gods Ministers, and the Blessed Saints his Friends. And then he proceeds to show the practice of Christians in Invocation: We humbly present our Petitions to the most high God, thro' his only begotten Son; to whom also we make our Supplications, as being the propitiation for our Sins, and as being our High Priest, to offer up our Prayers to God. For God only, saith he, is to be worshipped, and God the Word our High Priest to be called upon, that those Requests which come to him, he would please to present unto the Father. If we desire (as he goes on) the favour and assistance of the Angels, they assuredly are Friends to such who imitate their Holiness, and call upon God with devout hearts, and worship him, whom they adore and worship. And therefore he showeth the most compendious way is to commit ourselves to the great Ruler of the Creation, thro' Christ who hath taught us so to do; and from him to expect that help and protection, which by the ministry of Angels, and by the Spirits of Just Men, is communicated to us. And whereas Celsus had objected, (as your Doctors, many of them do unto this day) that as in the Courts of Princes we make our Applications first to his Nobles and Favourites, to appease his Displeasure and obtain his Favour; so in our Address to the most High God, we should make our way by the Intercession of his choicest Friends and Servants. Origen answers, Although in the Courts of Princes so it be, yet to us, one only God is to be appeased with Piety and Virtue, and his Favour to be desired: as for the blessed Saints and Angels, their favour and assistance follows, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  as the shadow the Body. They love and serve those who are in the favour of God. This I do assure you, saith he, when we have proposed to ourselves great things and made our Request known to God by Prayer and Supplication, All the Heavenly 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Powers, of their own accord, without our Invocation, do pray with us and for us. Nothing could more be said against the Invocation of Saints and Angels, and the Heavenly Powers: and this I am persuaded, was the principal reason why your Learned Cardinal brought not the Testimony of Origen to confirm your Prayers to the Saints departed; as others of your unadvised Doctors have done.  Phil. 
To proceed: We find in the same Century, how Cyprian, a Blessed Martyr, was so far persuaded of the Saints Intercession in Heaven, that as he desired, in his Epistles to him, the Prayers of Cornelius the Pope living. So farther, That he would please to enter with him into a serious Engagement, That whether of them, by Divine dignation, should first leave the World, he should be mindful to persevere with God in servant Prayer for his Brethren, the Faithful, left behind him. 
c Tom. 2. l. de disc. Ethabitis Virginum ad finem.  Again, in his Book to the Virgins, he exhorts them, To hold out courageously, to proceed Spiritually, and to obtain Happily: and then, saith he, Remember us when your Virginity shall receive the Crown.  Theoph. 
This is an Instance of Prayer to the living, for their assistance, when they should be translated into Heaven; but nothing to the Point, of the Invocation of Saints departed. It was his private Opinion, That the Saints in Heaven might retain the remembrance and affection towards their Friends and Relations whom they left behind, and commend them particularly in their Prayers; but not distinctly know their condition, or hear their Prayers if they should call upon them: this mutual stipulation before their decease, rather implies, that they conceived they should not have opportunity after ones decease, for the other to call upon him. And now good Friend, having conferred notes together about the Testimony of the three first Centuries of Christianity, there appears none for the Invocation of the Saints departed, not so much as any footsteps of this Doctrine before Cyprians 
a Martinussius Pere. Ne vestigium quidem unte Cypriutum.  say some of your Doctors; and we have not found a word in Cyprian that doth confirm it. For a close therefore, we may answer all your Pretensions with our Blessed Saviors words, Matth. 18. 8. but from the beginning it was not so. And taking in Tertullia's Rule, 
b Id verum quodcunque primum, id Adulterum quad posterius.  That is truth which is first, what comes after is adulterate. We may conclude your Doctrine to be innovate, and a fruit of Spiritual Fornication.  Phil. 
You must not so soon condemn so many of the Primitive Fathers, who have delivered this Doctrine, and therefore I pray give your patience to hear their ample Testimony. Bellarmin gives this notable Instance out of 
c Lib. 3 praepar. Evang c. 7, Votaque ipsiç facimus, etc.  Eusebius, in the fourth Century: Honouring the Champions of the true Religion as Friends of God; we come to their Tombs, and make Prayers to them as to Holy Men, by whose Intercession we may be much advantaged.  Theoph. 
A notable Instance indeed, to manifest the corruption of Translators, and such as follow them for the advantage of the Cause. Bellarmin might have consulted the Greek Copy of the Council of Chalcedon, and then he would not have been deceived by the Parenchesis in the Latin Translation, forged for the advantage of the Cause, as you have heard before. And so now the Greek Copy of Eusebius would have spared this proof of Cardinal Bellarmin: for Eusebius in that Book, having showed out of Plato, That Men eminent for Virtue should be honoured after death, he declares the practice of Christians to be agreeable, To honour the Champions of Piety and Religion, as Friends of God after their decease: 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Whence, saith he, it is our use to frequent their Monuments,, and make our Prayers there. We repair to their Tombs, and there make our Prayers, saith Eusebius. And so the Christians did frequent Memorias Martyrum, and call upon God in those places. But the Translator, with Bellarmin, reads it, We repair to their Tombs, and pray to them as to Holy Men. Again, Eusebius saith, 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We honour these Blessed Souls, and conceive we rationally do so. But the cozening Translator leaves this passage quite out, and puts in a Clause of his own: By whose Intercession, we declare ourselves to be much assisted with God. It seems George Trapezuntius, a wretched Translator, suited better Beauties turn, than the Original Text of Eusebius, and therefore he chose to consult one rather than the other. We see what reason we have to examine Beauties Quotations; many times they pretend much, but prove nothing but Imposture.  Phil. 
Methinks you might satisfy yourself with your pretended Confutations, and leave out your uncharitable Censures. I proceed to the Cardinal's next Quotation out of the great 
a Sermene de Annuntiatione ad finem.  Athanasius, who, with the People of God, puts up these Supplications to the Mother of God: Incline thine ear unto our Prayers, and forget not thy People. O blessed Virgin, we cry unto thee, Be mindful of us, O our Lady and Mistress, the Queen of Heaven and Mother of God, Intercede for us.  Theoph. 
I must confess this is an ample Testimony: But your Cardinal knew very well this Oration was a forgery, falsely ascribed to that Holy Father. It discovers itself to have been written after the opposite Heresies of Nestorius and Eutyches, for it directly confutes them. And Cardinal Baronius 
b Anno Christi 48. N. 19, 20.  acknowledgeth what I say, and Numb. 23. concludes like an Oracle, giving a just reproof to Bellarmin, and the other Doctors who make use of Lies to uphold supposed Truths: 
c Existimamus Cathel. veritatem labre factari potius, etc.  We believe Catholic Truths rather to be weakened by such false Allegations, then supported. And withal, holy 
d Oratione 2. centra Arrianos, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Athanasius urgeth this Argument against the Arrians, to prove Christ's Divinity, because we call upon him: and tells us, That the Saints do not call upon any Created Being to be their help and succour. And so I hope you apprehend the severity of my Censures to be due, being put to such an intolerable Drudgery to search among the Rubbish of your falsified Records and Quotations; it is the only satisfaction I have, to discover your Impostures, and expose them to censure and undeceive the World.  Phil. 
Well, now you must take your farewell: These Autorities that follow are without Exception. St Basil 
e Oratione in 40 Martyrs.  hath this Passage: He that is straightened with any necessity, let him fly to them: He that hath occasion to rejoice, let him call upon them; the one that he may be delivered, the other that be may continue in prosperity.  Theoph. 
I wish you would make good your words, and bring Quotations fair, and without Exception: For this of Basil is ill Translated, merely for your advantage: 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  The oppressed flies to these 40 Martyrs: 'Tis in the Indicative and not in the Imperative Mood, showing the People's practice, not his precept. But that which follows, shows your Doctor's cheat: 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  He that rejoiceth, comes to these, saith Basil: and you say, Let him pray to these. Now you have heard, it was usual for Men in every condition, to come to the Monuments of the Martyrs, and there call upon God for help, and there offer up their Sacrifices of Praise to him, not to the Martyrs.  Phil. 
What shift have you for 
b In Psalmum 35.  Basils' next Testimony: Of the Spiritual Powers, some are called Eyes, because they watch over us; some are called Ears, because they ᶜ hear and receive our Prayers.  Theoph. 
What Prayers? those which are made to them? that doth not appear; rather those Prayers which are made to God, which some of the Ancient, from some passages out of the Revelation of St John, did conceive the Angels did present to God: How doth this prove the Invocation of Saints?  Phil. 
The next Testimony Bellarmin urgeth, is o. 
c Quia nostras excip. preces.  Gregory Nazianzen, The 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Oratione in Cyprianum.  Eminent Divine, as he is generally called: He relates how Saint Cyprian, before his Conversion, was a Magician, and falling desperately in Love with a Christian Virgin, and not being able to obtain her Affection, he made use of Art-Magic, and Enchantments to compass his design: But, saith he, 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  The Virgin made her Supplication to the Blessed Virgin, to help a Virgin in distress, and so was delivered from the Enchanting Powers.  Theoph. 
Nazianzen took this Fable out of a Book called, Cyprians Repentance and Conversion, where 'tis related: and that Book is declared spurious by Pope 
f Dist. 15. cap. Sancta Rom. Ecclesia.  Gelasius. 
g In Catal. Script. Ecclesiast. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  St Jerome gives another account of Cyprians Conversion, showing how he was Rhetoric Professor in Carthage, and Converted by the acquaintance and persuasion of Cecilius, from whom he took the Surname, Coecilianus Cyprianus. And Pamelius, and many others, who have written Cyprians Life, acquit him of this Infamous passage, and Nazianzen was strangely credulous to assert it.  Phil. 
You are always severe against such as do not please you: But Bellarmin shows farther, how that Holy Farther calls upon Cyprian in the end of this Oration; upon Basil, in the close of his Panegyrie; and upon Athanasius, in these words, 
h Oratione in Athanasium.  Do thou graciously look down upon us out of Heaven, and direct this Holy People, and feed and cherish us in peace, and in our conflicts guide and supportus, and bring us unto the same state of Glory, with thyself, and such Blessed Spirits as are like Thee.  Theoph. 
Nazianzen was a great Orator, and makes such Apostrophe's severally to the Saints upon whom he made his Panegyrics; and yet this will not infer, That he did believe they heard him; or that he made this Application to them by way of Invocation, no more than he did to Julian the Apostate after his decease, unto whom he directs his Speech for a whole Leaf together, in the close of his second Invective. Nay, you shall find this Orator sometimes to correct himself by an Epanor thosis in the midst of his Rhetorical Apostrophes, in his first Invective against Julian, in the words of the Prophet Isaiah, he calls upon the Heaven and Earth to hear him: 
a Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Hear, O Heaven; and give ear, O Earth. And then it follows, Hear O Soul of Constantius the Great, if there be any sense in thee of these inferior things. In his Father's Funeral Oration he saith, Now he advantages the Church of God more by his Prayers, than before by his Doctrine and Preaching, if it be not presumption to say so. And in the Funeral Oration of his Sister Gorgonia, he is more expressly doubtful, Whether this honour is given to the Saints departed, as to be sensible of those things that are spoken of them.  Phil. 

b Illudsi, non est dubitantis, sed affirmant.  Bellarmin takes notice of such Passages, and saith, Those ifs, are not of one doubting but asserting; as when St Paul said to Philemon: If thou count me a Partner, receive him as myself, ver. 17. he did not doubt of philemon's affection.  Theoph. 
The Circumstances show the contrary, and Bellarmin offers no proof of his confident Assertion, but only because It may be so taken in one place, it must be in these. If your Doctors groundless Shifts and Answers must go for Oracles, you may carry all before you. For instance in the first, If of Nazianzen in his Apostrophe to Constantius after his decease: Hear, O thou Blessed Soul of great Constantius, If thou hast any knowledge of these things I speak, etc. Dares Bellarmin suppose that Constantius did hear Nazianzen? Or that he was a Blessed Soul in Heaven, who was so great a Persecuter of the Orthodox Christians in his life time, and Protector of the Arrians? and upon this account, I much wonder how this Holy Father could make such honourable mention of an Arrian Emperor, as to style him, ᶜ The most famous of Princes that ever were, increasing the heritage of Christ to his power. For his zeal of the Orthodox Faith, he is generally styled, Gregory the Divine. But here we must reckon him to be a vehement Orator, and many of his Sentences must be made good only by some Figures of Rhetoric, Hyperboles, Apostrophes, and the like.  Phil. 
Is this your way to answer the Fathers: You formerly severely censured this way in Bellarmin, when he said, Chrysostom in many places spoke like an Orator: and do you now fall under the same condemnations?  Theoph. 
I have given an answer unto Beauties' Arguments out of Nazianzen, and now I make this necessary Observation to the Reader, for greater caution.  Phil. 
St Hilary lived in this fourth Century, an eminent Bishop in France, who in his Commentary upon the 129 Psalms, tells us, That the Angels are Precedents of Churches.  Theoph. 
He brings a strange proof of the Assertion, Rev. 2. 3. from the Angels of the Churches of Asia; which are generally taken by Interpreters, for the Bishops of those Churches: and they cannot possibly stand for the Heavenly Powers and Spirits, because some Infirmities are imputed to them, Rev. 2, ver. 4. That the Angel of the Church of Ephesus, had left his first love, that he should repent and do his first works. That the Angel of the Church of Laodicea was lukewarm, cap. 3. 16.  Phil. 
I pray give me leave to urge the whole Testimony of this Father; he saith, We may in a probable sense call the Angels, The Eyes of the Lord, and his Ears, his Hands, and his Feet; for they are his Ministering Spirits. And although the Divine Nature, who knoweth all things, need not their information; yet our infirmity in praying to God, and deserving his savour, needs their Spiritual Intercession.  Theoph. 
I pray, How doth the Ministry and Intercession of Angels, prove the Invocation of Saints? Such impertinent Quotations are only brought to fill up the number, and weary the Reader.  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows how the same Holy Father, in Psal. 124. speaks alike of the Intercession of the Holy Apostles and Prophets.  Theoph. 
True, he doth Allegorise the Mountains which stand round about. Jerusalem, 
a Nec leve praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis & Prophetis, vel potius in Ang.  to be The guard of Saints; or rather, saith he, of Angels about God's People. But leaving St Hilaries Allegories, I pray observe what the Prophet David adds immediately: As the Mountains stand about Jerusalem, so the Lord is round about his People from henceforth even for ever. And Hilary thereupon declares, 
b Benumb quidem praesidium Angeli, sed melius Dei.  The safeguard of the Angels is good; but of God, much better. Mean while, here is not one syllable of our Invocation of Saints or Angels, but only of their Intercession and Protection. And by the way, you may take this note along with you, That Hilary was as bitter in his Invectives, and had as great an Indignation against the Emperor Constantius, as you but now heard Gregory Nazianzen did extol him.  Phil. 
It is not my work to commit the Fathers: I proceed in Beauties' proofs; his next, out of St Ambrose, is full and without Exception: We must pray unto the Angels, who are our Guards; and to the Saints and Martyrs, whose Patronage we may challenge, as being of our own Substance: they can entreat for our sins, who have washed away their own (if any they had) with their Blood. These are Gods Martyrs and our Bishops, Overseers of our Life and Actions: let us not 
ᶜ Lib. de Viduis ultra medium. Obsecrandi sunt Ang. etc. Obs. sunt Martyres Corporis pignora.  blush to admit these as Intercessors for our infirmities because They, when they did overcome, were yet sensible of the infirmity of the body.  Theoph. 
Saint Ambrose was but a young Divine, a novice and Cathechumen when he was chosen Bishop of Millam: he was trained up in Civil affairs, pleading Causes, & as a Deputy of the Country administering justice; & therefore we have no teason to ground our Faith upon his dictates. He speaks often piously, but not always Orthodoxly: do you allow that passage of his in this very proof? 
a Qui proprio sanguine laverunt, si qua habuerunt peccata.  The Martyrs, if they had any sins, have washed them away with their own Blood. The Blessed Apostle tells us, 1 Joh. 1. The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all unrighteousness. Immediately before these words which Bellarmin quotes, S. Ambrose hath this passage. 
b Infirma est caro, mens aegra, & ad Medici sedem non potest debile explicare vestigium.  The flesh is weak, the mind sick, and fetered with the chains of sin; and so we cannot creep to the Physician, but must call upon the Angels and Martyrs, etc. Where do you read in H. Scripture, that the sick, to wit, the sinner cannot come to Christ the Physician? did he not come to call sinners, to invite the weary and heavy laden to come to him, and find rest? you shall hear other Fathers generally contradicting this Doctrine of Ambrose, and the Holy Scripture much more; yet this is the usual pretence for Saints Invocation and Intercession, That we are unworthy of ourselves to draw near to an Holy God, & to put up our supplications to him: of which more hereafter, & herein S. Ambrose contradicts what he hath piously commented upon the first chap. of the Epistle to the Rom. in the 4 chap. of his Commentary. 
c Solent miserâ uti excusatione, per istos posse ire ad Deum, ut per Comites ad Reg.  This is the miserable excuse, saith he, that by Angels and Saints, we may have access to God, being unworthy of ourselves to come unto him, as we go to the King by his Courtiers. For which he answers, 
d Ideo per Tribunos & Comites, itur ad Regem, quia homo est, etc. Ad Deum a. promerendum, qui omnium novit merita, suffragatore opus non est, sed ment devotâ.  Therefore we come to the King by his Tribunes and Officers, because the King is a man, and must receive information from others: but to obtain the favour of God; who knoweth all men's deserts, we need no suffragants but a devout mind: whensoever such a one calls upon Him, he will answer him. Nothing could be more directly opposed to your usual plea for the Invocation of Saints. The same Father in his book de Isaac. & Anima cap. 5 tells us from the third chap. of Canticles, and the third verse. 
e Anima quae Deum quaerit transit custodes, enim sunt mysteria quae etiam Ang. concupiscunt videre.  That a Soul seeking God passeth by the keepers, for there are mysteries which the Angels themselves desire to look into.  Phil. 
Do you then follow S. Ambrose's direction in one place, and I will take his advice in the other. Bellarmin brings the testimony of many other Fathers of the later Ages of the Church; and I must confess I am almost tired in following him, especially seeing you so dextriously shift him off. Gregory Nyssen speaks home to the point in the latter end of his Oration opon Theodorus a Martyr, thus: We want many benefits, do thou become our Legate with the King of Heaven. Thou art not ignorant of humane necessities, procure peace for us. That we have been safe and sound hitherto we ascribe it to thee. If you want more assistance take in the choir of your Brethren the Martyrs. The prayers of many Saints wash away the sins of Nations and People. In the like manner he speaks in his Panegyrics of another Martyr.  Theoph. 
This is sufficient to your purpose; you need look no further. But I pray tell me, do you take him for an Orator or Divine in these passages? Is it possible he should in earnest ascribe the preservation of the Faithful all along unto this Martyr, & hope for security from him for the future? and never take into consideration the divine protection? Is it good Divinity to say, That the prayers of the Just wash away the guilt of Nations and People, and never mention the Blood of Christ, and his effectual Intercession?  Phil. 
That is to be supposed as the principal; the Blessed Saints may be instrumental in these Blessings.  Theoph. 
What you suppose is one thing, and what he expresseth another. But it is neither good Philosophy nor Divinity, to entitle the effect unto the Instruments, and leave out the principal Agent. Should I make such an harangue to an Artists Tools, & give them all the honour of the excellent work, he would reckon me besides my wits, and himself put besides his due commendation & praise.  Phil. 
You ask Questions instead of giving Answers. But I have now concluded to favour you, and not overlade you with innumerable testimonies. The Authority of the later Fathers perhaps you will except against in this point. Such as Bede, and Anselme, & Bernard & Damascene; & the Elder I have hitherto produced, and yet there remain two of the Greek Church, and two of the Latin Church whose Authorities I will urge out of Bellarmin in confirmation of this point, & then I shall give you respite. The Greek Fathers are chrysostom and Theodoret; the Latin Jerom, and Augustin.  Theoph. 
You have made a noble choice, & herein you much oblige me: (whilst your wisdom and your zeal do prompt you to urge the most effectual testimonies on your side) that you determine to let the others pass, which chiefly serve to fill up a number.  Phil. 
Bellarmin quotes an eminent passage out of 
a Homil. 66 add pop. Antioch.  Chrysostom, but we easier find it in his 26 Homily upon the second Epistle to the Corinthians, from whence we suppose the Homily was collected; it is in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of that Homily. The words out of Chrysostom are these. He that weareth purple goes and salutes the sacred bodies, and laying aside his state 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc.  stands praying unto the Saints, that they would appear before God in his behalf. He that weareth the Diadem beesecheth the Tentmaker and Fisherman being dead, to become his Advocates.  Theoph. 
This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a passage whereunto we find not a second like it in all the works of Chrysostom. Bellarmine refers to other p●●ces of this Father: but (according to his accoustumed manner) without truth and reason. It is strange therefore if he were of the opinion, & the practice in his days was usual to pray to the Saints before their shrines that any where else he should not speak of it.; and therefore I must tell you that the original Greek doth not altogether warrant Bellarmin's translation, but equally admits another, which will fall short of his proof. For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as well signifies standing in need of the Saints Intercession, as praying for it; and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, He wants their protection. Now we may stand in need, and may reap the benefit of the Saints supplications in Heaven for the people of God here on earth, & yet have no warrant to call upon them, except we could be better assured that they do hear us. This therefore is a fallible and ambiguous proof, unless ratified by some other passages out of Chrysostom.  Phil. 
The Cardinal refers to other places in that Father for the same proof.  Theoph. 
He doth so to his great shame and disadvantage; to the demonstration of his supiness, not of the point. He sends us to Chrysostoms' fift Homily upon St Matthew; where the Holy Father in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in the application or Moral upon the text, presseth much upon us the duty of being sober and watchful in prayer to God for ourselves, and not depend upon the prayers of others. For no man may deliver his Brother, nor make agreement to God for him. Ps. 49. 7. He instanceth in Moses that could not prevail for Miriam, nor Samuel for Saul, nor Jeremy for his People. 
c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, &c,  If we ourselves be negligent, others cannot help us: if we be watchful we may prevail for ourselves more then by others Intercession. For God chooseth rather to give his blessings to us for ourselves, then for others praying for us. For so, says he, he had compassion upon the Canaanitish woman, & saved the harlot & Thief, 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  none mediating or playing the Advocate to God for them. Would any sober man believe Bellarmin should direct us unto this Homily for the proof and encouragement unto the Invocation of Saints departed?  Phil. 
Perhaps he reflected upon Chrysostom's next word in that Homily. 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  I speak these things, not that we should not desire the prayers of the Saints, but that ourselves should not be slothful. He would not discourage men from suing to the Saints.  Theoph. 
To the Saints living, not the deceased. All his instances in the Homily show this, in Samuel's praying for Saul, and Moses for Miriam, and their prayers were unsuccessful, because the persons for whom they prayed were not worthy. In the next place your Cardinal sends us to the eight Homily, where there is not a syllable for his purpose. There in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he shows, That neither the iniquity of our Fathers, nor of the place wherein we live shall hinder us in the course of Virtue, if we will take heed unto ourselves. As Joseph lived virtuously in Egypt, and the three Children in Babylon, and Hezekiah was a good Son of wicked Ahaz, and Abraham of Terah an Idolater. If this proves the Invocation of Saints, let it be so. In the next place we follow him unto Chrysostoms' 43 Homily upon Genesis, where we have the former Text. No man may deliver his brother, etc. if we neglect ourselves, neither Father nor Kinsman can stead us, no not the Saints & righteous men who have great confidence with God. Only a Jesuits chemical brain can extract the Invocation of Saints out of these passages of Chrysostom. Come we now to the next place of Chrysostom whether Bellarmin refers us, to his first Homily upon the first Epistle to the Thessalonians: There the good Father exhorteth us in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be watchful and solicitous for ourselves, and then others prayers also may benefit us. 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  'tis good, saith he, to enjoy the preys of the Saints, but when we are co-workers with them. Where he evidently speaks of the prayers of the living for us, instancing in Peter's deliverance out of prison, thro' the servant prayers of the Church, Act. 12. and in Paul's desire the Saints should contend in prayer for him, Phil. 1. 19 And now tell me, is not this a great deceit & cheat upon the Reader, when the good Father speaks of the prayers of the Saints living which we should desire, for Bellarmin to transfer it unto the prayers of the Saints departed? In the last place your Cardinal sends us unto Chrysostoms' Panegyric upon two Martyrs, Jubentius and Maximinus, tom. 5. And I suppose he had an eye unto that passage of the Father. As Soldiers showing their wounds received in war, appear with great confidence before the General or their Prince, so these Blessed Martyrs presenting their heads, which were cut off, in their hands, may easily obtain what they shall desire of the King of Heaven. Now from hence what would you infer?  Phil. 
That as they can prevail much with God, we should the more importunately beg the favour of their Intercession.  Theoph. 
Why did not the Holy Father make that inference himself? or make his Application to them in prayer? we say, because he did not approve the doctrine of prayers to the Saints in Heaven. All that he exhorts his hearers unto in the close of his Panegyric is this: To go unto the Monuments of these Martyrs with faith and joy, that by the sight of their shrines, and remembrance of their glorious sufferings they may reap much fruit, and so live, That they may share in their happiness. Would he not have encouraged the people of God to pray unto these Martyrs, if he had thought it beneficial or duty? And now I begin to understand, That when your subtle Cardinal refers to a place by figures, & quotes not the words at length; he well knew they would not serve his turn: only to impose upon the credulous Reader, either to believe him, or to be put to an endless trouble in the search & discovery. But I have been content to devour this trouble, & have with great indignation found him a deceiver: and and yet before I leave St Chrysostom, I will refer you to one of 
g Tom. 5. Hom. 60.  his Homilies; where in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the history of the Canaanitish woman, he shows, 
h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That we prevail most with God by our own prayers, rather than others Intercessions. The Apostles, saith he, interposed for that woman; but our Saviour's answer was a denial: I am not sent but unto the lost Sheep of Israel, but her own importunity prevailed for her daughter's recovery, which was the sum of her desire. There Chrysostom expressly tells us, Thou hast no need of Mediators with God, to fawn upon others to pray for thee: but if thou art destitute of all Protectors, thyself by thyself, calling upon God shalt thou obtain all canst desire. He will not grant unto us, upon the request of others, so as upon our own. He puts the objection which your Doctors usually propose, That we are not worthy to appear in the Lord's presence. 
i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  What sayest thou? art thou unworthy? become worthy by thy perseverance in prayer to God. Our Blessed Saviour, saith he, compared the woman of Canaan to a Dog, unto whom the children's bread must not be given; and yet soon after he cried out, O woman, great is thy faith.  Phil. 
You may as well urge these like passages of Chrysostom against the Mediation and Intercession of Christ, and against any desire, That the Faithful living should assist us with their prayers.  Theoph. 
You should not join together the Mediation & Intercession of Christ, and of the Saints whether in Heaven or Earth. And you may observe the Father speaks of 
k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Intercessors in the plural, as of many. Implying That one is our Mediator between God and men, even the Man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim. 2. 5. And withal the Testimony is sufficient against that fond conceit, That we are unworthy to draw near to God in our own persons, but by others Intercession.  Phil. 
You will draw out your discourse in infinitum by your rejoinders and remarks, but I hast to an end. The second Greek Father I proposed was Theodoret, a Learned Bishop of Cyprus, who in his History of the Lives of Holy Fathers, concludes each Life after this manner: 
l Huic narrationi finem imponens, rogo ut per horum intercess. div. cons. cuxil.  I, putting a period to this relation and history, do pray and beseech, that by the Intercession of these Saints, I may obtain Divine assistance.  Theoph. 
It is not here expressed that he did pray unto these Saints, but we rather suppose to God, upon the opinion of their Intercession, That he might reap the benefit thereof; & withal he was infected with the here●y of Nestorius, and wrote bitterly against cyril of Alexanria his twelve Theses: and that work of his was condemned in the fift general Council; and himself thro' the violence of oppositions, was compelled against his judgement to pronounce Nestorius accursed: yet we honour his great Learning, and let his memory be precious.  Phil. 
I am glad to discover your moderation, for there is another most considerable testimony out of him, full to the point of Saints Invocation. 
m Libro 8. De curandis Graec, affectibus.  The Temples of the Martyrs are magnificent & beautiful, in them we often keep festivals; & such as enjoy health, pray to the Martyrs to preserve it; such as are sick desire health of them: Men and Women who are unfruitful, ask of them Children: Such as go a journey desire their conduct, and after their safe return they pay their thanks to them, owing their security to their favour. Now, says he, they do not pray to these Martyrs as to God, but as unto Holy men whose Intercession they desire, and that they often obtained their requests; the numerous gifts devoted to these Martyrs do testify, hanging up in the Martyr's Temples the pictures of theirs eyes and hands and legs, in gold, which their votaries recovered by their merits, and prayers, and Intercession.  Theoph. 
These are high things, and great assignments unto the Martyrs. Methinks there should of right have been some reflections upon God in these deliverances and cures, & sure there was something in the wind that Bellarmin only refers to this passage, and doth not set it down in full length; being so full to his purpose. (in the 18th chap. he hath part of this quotations, but not the whole.) Perhaps the Cardinal was not fully satisfied with the person of Theodoret: or rather with the book itself, which 
n Niceph. l. 44 c. 54.  Nicephorus doth not reckon up among Theodoret's Works, when he gives an account of all his books; these 8 books De curandis Graecorum affectibus, are not mentioned. 
o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Those which he wrote are these, etc. And withal your Learned Cardinal knew well, That what Theodoret (if this book were his) did build with one hand, he pulled down with another, as to this point of Invocation of Saints or Angels: For in his Commentary upon the 2d chap. of St Paul to the Colossians, vers. 18, Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of Angels. I say, Theodoret in his Commentary upon this place, cuts off the sinews and foundation of Saints and Angels Invocation. He shows how some Jewish Christians in Phrygia and Pisidia being zealous of the Laws, did worship Angels, by whom the Law was given, and build Temples to St Michael and others; and that this course continued long among them. 
p Bin. Concil. Lacd. Tom. 1. can. 35. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  And therefore that in the 4th Century, a Council of Bishops in Laodicea the Metropolis of Phrygia, near neighbour to Colosse, did expressly forbid the worship of Angels, calling it Idolatry. That Christians ought not to leave the Church of God, and departed and call upon the Angels, and make assemblies, and if any be found to be conversant in this hidden Idolatry, let him be accursed. Now this voluntary humility which St Paul mentions, refers to that humble pretence, That sinners are not worthy to draw near to God themselves, but by the Intercession of Saints & Angels. Intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up in his fleshly mind, saith the Apostle. That is, saith Theodoret, 
a Propriis utens rationibus & cogitationibus.  using his own reason and imaginations, etc. now (saith he) the 
b Synodus volens veteri illi morbo mederi, cavit ne precarentur Angelos.  Synod of Laodicea desiring to cure this old decease forbids them to pray unto Angels. And you will grant if we must not pray to Angels, neither to the Saints. For you have derived chiefly the Invocation of Saints from that of Angels.  Phil. 

c Ibid. cap. 20.  Bellarmin hath answered this passage of Theodoret, and of the Council of Laodicea, and the Text of the Apostle together. Namely 
d Apostolum damnare haeresin Simenis Magi, qui decuit Angelos quasi minres, etc.  That the Apostle condemns the heresy of Simon Magus, who taught, like Plato, that the Angels should be worships as lesser Deities, and that none could please the invisible God but by the Angels. And he tells us That the Council 
e Concilium non damnat quamvis venerationem Ang. sed quae Deo propria.  did not condemn all worship of Angels, but only such veneration as is proper to God.  Theoph. 
Observe the incongruity of this Answer, as to several particulars. He saith the Council condemns not all Veneration of Angels, but only such as is proper to God the supreme Deity: and yet according to his own relation, Simon Magas, and the Jewish Christians that worshipped Angels, did not worship them as the Supreme Deity, but only as subordinate Intercessors. And St Paul and the Council of Laoduea condemns this: That in voluntary humility they should deprive themselves of that privilege to come to God themselves, and so make way unto him by the Intercession of Angels. The Apostle therefore and the Council forbid this inferior worship, as Theodoret observes, 
f Ne precarentur Angelos.  That they should not pray to the Angels to make way for them unto the Great God. And in the next chap. of S. Paul to the Colossians, vers. 17. the Apostle commanding as Whatsoever we do either in word or deed to do all in the name of our Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God, and the Father by him. Theodoret's Comment is, 
g Deo & Patri gratiarum actionem emittite, per ipsum, non per Angelos.  Offer up to God your sacrifice of praise by Him, not by the Angels. Again we find not one syllable either in Theodoret, or the Council of Laodicea concerning Simon Magus or his heresy, but only those Christians which did worship and pray to Angels. To conclude this Answer, It is the miserable device of the Schools to shift off evident & unanswerable arguments, with obscure and srivolous distinctions, giving no real satisfaction either to themselves or others. So in the point of Image worship, They did not give to them the worship of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which apparteins only to God: but an inferior worship called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: or if any were so bold to maintain, That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is due to the Cross, or the Image of Christ, yet it is in a relative and inferior manner. So here the Council condemns not all Veneration of Angels, but only such as is due to God. Whereas the circumstances you have heard prove the contrary. The Council forbids Invocation of Angels, as Intercessors for us to the supreme Deity.  Phil. 
You will never I see receive any satisfaction from us. I proceed unto the two Eminent Fathers of the Latin Church. Bellarmin urgeth That prayer of S. Jerom in the end of his Epitaph or Panegyric upon Paula. 
a Vale o Paula, & Cultoris tui ultimam senectutem orationibus juva.  Farewell o Paula, and assist with thy prayers the extreme old age of thy worshipper.  Theoph. 
From other evident passages of that Father, we conclude This to be a Rhetorical Apostrophe, and not the judgement & practice of S. Jerom to pray unto the Saints departed. For in his book against Vigilantius, he first asserts, That Martyrs are not to be worshipped. 
b Quis aliquando Martyres adoravit?  Whoever worshipped them?  Phil. 
Althou they are not worshipped as God, yet we may pray unto them.  Theoph. 
Prayer is a part of religious worship due to God, if you mean only civil requests, such as one Christian makes to another to remember him in his prayers, we would not deny it to the Saints in Heaven, could we be assured that they do hear us. But to proceed, Jerom doth not bring one syllable to assert the Invocation of Saints; although, if his judgement had inclined the balance that way, he had occasion given by Vigilantius, whose Assertion was, That while we live we may pray one for another, 
c Post mortem nullus audet pro aliis deprecari.  but none prays for other after death. Against this Jerom riseth with great indignatien: If the blessed Apostles and Martyrs while in the flesh could pray for others, how much more after they are crowned? 
d Postquam cum Christo esse cepermt minus valebunt?  shall they prevail less with Christ now they are with him? This is somewhat for their Intercession, but not for their Invocation. Nay, in his funeral Oration upon Nepotian dedicated to Heliodorus, Jerom saith expressly: 
e Quicquid dixero, quia ille non audit, mutum videtur.  Whatsoever I say of him 'tis but silence, seeing he heareth not. And in the close of the Oration, he saith: 
f Cum quo loqui non possumus, de eo loqui nunquam desinamus.  Seeing we cannot speak to him or with him, let us never cease to speak of him; now making prayers to the deceased is speaking to them, and not of them.  Phil. 
If I should multiply Replies to your answers we should never conclude. I hast unto the testimony of S. Augustin. Bellarmin quotes 3 places out of this Holy Father, to prove the Invocation of Saints: 
a Tract. 84. in Joannem. Non sic Mart. ad Mensam commemoramus, etc.  We do not so commemorate Martyrs, at the Holy Table, as we do others who rest in peace, so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us .. And the second place is like unto it, De verbis Apostolorum, Serm. 17. 
b Injuria est pro Mart. orare, cujus nos debemus Orat. commendari.  It is an injury to pray for a Martyr, unto whose Prayers we should be commended.  Theoph. 
In these two parallel passages, St Augustin shows, That the Commemoration of the Martyrs at the Altar in the time of Divine Service, must not be construed a Prayer for them (for that would be an injury to them) but rather a tacit recommendation of the Congregation, unto their Prayers and Intercession. Here is no Invocation expressed, but only a recommendation implied, and so they are dubious and imperfect proofs: and in the first he speaks only comparatively, That Martyrs should rather pray for us, than we for them. And yet withal I must acquaint you, That Epiphanius a Primitive Bishop (who did much oppose the growing Superstition of Worshipping Saints and Images, both by his Writings and Actions) 
c Heresi 75. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  be expressly tells us, We pray for Martyrs, and for the whole Order of Blessed Saints, etc. That so we may distinguish the Lord Christ from all generations of Men.  Phil. 
Make what use of your Observations you please. I pass to the third Testimony, which Bellarmin brings from St 
d Lib. de cura pro Mortuis, c. 4. Nisi ad hoc, ut dum recolunt ubi sunt, etc.  Augustin, I do not see what advantage to the dead is the care of their Friends to bury them near the Tomb of some Martyr; unless herein, That whilst they remember where the Bodies of their Friends do lie, they may commend them unto those Saints as Patrons, to be assisted by their Prayers.  Theoph. 
Notwithstanding this Testimony, we shall willingly be tried by this Book, concerning St Augustins Judgement in the point of Praying to the Saints: And I will therefore give you a short account of the whole Book. In the beginning, St Augustin shows how he was consulted by Paulinus a Bishop, whether it was any advantage to the Dead, to be buried in the Temple, or near the Monument of a Saint or Martyr: The occasion was given by a Pious Matron, Flora, who was very importunate to have her Son Cynegius buried in the Temple of St. Felix. Hereunto St Augustin answers, That it is no part of our Misery, if our Bodies should not be Interred, but exposed, by the Tyranny of Persecutors, unto the Fouls of the Air, or to the Beasts of the Field: For, saith he, our Blessed Saviour saith expressly, That after Man hath killed the Body, he can do no more, not hurt the person after death. And when the Bodies of Martyrs were not permitted Burial, it was no part of their Infelicity, but only showed the cruelty of Tyrants, That so Christians, who contemned death, might learn much more to contemn their Burial. He shows, That Funeral Solemnities, are 
a Magis sunt vivorum solatiaquam subsidia Mortuorum.  rather comforts to the living, than assistances to the dead. And then coming near unto the Question, touching the advantage of being buried in a Martyr's Temple: He answers in those words which Bellarmin citys, I see not how such a provision can benefit the Person deceased, unless herein, That whilst his Friends remember where his Body lies Interred, they may be apt to commend him to the Patronage of that Saint for assistance with God.  Phil. 
This plainly proves the particular Invocation of Saints departed.  Theoph. 
Have patience, and St Augustin in the next Chapter, will show what he meant by this recommendation. The pious Mother, saith he, did desire her Son should be buried in the Martyr's Temple, believing that so his Soul should reap some benefit from the Martyr's merits: And then he immediately adds. 
b Hoc quod ita credidit suppli catio, etc.  This belief of hens was a kind of Prayer, and if any thing did profit her Son, This, was it. You plainly see how doubtfully the good Father speaks concerning the benefit of burial near a Martyr; and how he expressly interprets praying to the Saint, to be, our believing that by his Merits we shall reap some advantage to our Souls. He proceeds in that Book to show, That although there have been appearances of Ghosts, complaining, That their Bodies did lie unburied; yet these things may come to pass by Divine permission, thro' the Ministry of good or evil Angels: the Spirit departed knowing nothing of the Apparition. He gives an Instance of an Executor, who after his Father's decease, was much distressed with the demand of a great Debt, which was supposed to have been paid; but having no Discharge to show, it was like to lie upon him: Meanwhile, his Father appears to him, and directs him to the place where he should find the Acquittance, and a full discharge of the Debt. Now by this Apparition, Men may be apt to conclude, That the deceased Father understood and compassionated his Son's condition, and came to his relief; and yet, saith St Augustin, All this might come to pass by Divine Providence, without his deceased Father's knowledge: And gives an Instance of himself, appearing to a Friend of his in his Dream, whilist himself knew nothing of it. Eulogius was to read a solemn Lecture before a great Auditory in Carthage, upon Tully's Rhetoric; and one obscure passage there was which he did not well understand, and was very solicitous how to interpret it: And lo! the night before, saith St Augustine, as Eulogius declares, I appeared to him in his Dream, and showed him an apposite sense of the Words. This is in the 11th Chapter of the Book. In the 13th Chap. he concludes, That of such Apparitions, whether of Persons living or defunct, are made to others, themselves being altogether ignorant thereof. And he concludes farther, That there is no commerce between the living and the dead, for otherwise, saith he, my most dear Mother would have often appeared to me, and manifested her care and love; for God forbidden, That I should think she is become cruel by her state of Happiness. And if our Parents and nearest Friends have no communion with us after death, How should others they are Strangers. St Augustin goes on to tell us. That the Children of Abraham expressly say to God, Isaiah 63. 16. Surely thou art our Father, although Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not. That Josiah was gathered to his Fathers, that his eyes might not see the evil which should be brought upon Jerusalem, 2 Kings 22. 20. implying, That after death he should not know it. Therefore, saith he, 
b Ibi sunt spiritus defuncti ubi non vident quae hic aguntur, etc.  The Souls of dead Men are where they do not see what things are done here below; And how then can they see their own Tombs? And whereas Abraham did know Moses, and the Prophets, and their Writings, when he directed Dives his Brethren unto them, He might know them, saith he, by their own Relation after their decease. In the 15th Chapter he concludes fully, 
c Fatendum est Nescire Mortuos, quid hic agatur.  We must confess that the dead do not know what is here done, unless something may be made known to them by the relation of Angels, or persons lately deceased, And whereas, saith he, at the Shrines and Monuments of Martyrs, Miracles have been wrought, and Martyrs themselves have appeared to the living, yet they might not themselves know that they did appear; as we read, That Ananias appeared to Saul in Damascus, himself knowing not of it, until the Lord acquainted him therewith, The Lord said unto Ananias, Acts 9 11, 12. Arise, and go into the street which is called, Straight; and inquire in the House of Judas, for one called Saul of Tarsus: for behold he Prayeth, and hath seen in a Vision a Man named Ana●ias, coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. At length he concludes, 
d An ista fiant Dei nutu per Angelicas potestates, in honorem, etc.  Such Miracles at the Shrines of Martyrs may be done, by God's permission, thro' the Ministry of Angels and Holy Powers, in honour of the Saints, and for the benefit of Men; the Saints themselves being entered into the highest rest, and attending unto more excellent things, being sequestered from us, and praying for us.  Phil. 
St Augustin acknowledgeth, you see, that the Saints and Martyrs do pray for us.  Theoph. 
Yes in general, as he expresseth it in the 16th Chap. 
e Ipsis in loco suis meritis congruo ab omni mortalium conversatiens remotis, etc.  They being removed from the society of Mortals, in a place suitable to their merits; and yet in general, praying for the indigency of poor Supplicants: As we pray for the dead, with whom we are not present, neither know we where they are, or what they do. Thus have I given an account of St Augustins Judgement out of this Book, to show, That he did not believe the Saints departed knew our conditions, or that Prayers were to be made to them. That which he mentions concerning the Prayers of the living for the dead, that will fall into consideration hereafter. Now as this excellent Father is voluminous, so are there scattered in his Works many other Passages to take us off from the Invocation of Saints, That even at their Shrines we ought not to pray to them, but to God. 
a Lib. 8. De civet. Dei, cap. ult.  He tells us, That whatsoever Religious Obsequies are used in the Temples and Places of the Martyrs, they are Ornaments of their Memory: That we may give thanks to God for their Triumph, and may encourage others to their Imitation, from the renewing of their Memories, 
b Eodem Deo invocato in auxilium.  The same Lord being called upon for our assistance. Mark it: God being called upon for his assistance, that we may imitate the Martyr's Virtues. 
c Lib. 20. Centra faustum Manich. c. 21. Quod offertur, Deo offertur, etc.  Again he tells us, That which is offered at the Shrines and Memories of the Martyrs, is offered to God.  Phil. 
This is true, as to Sacrifices, which belong only to God; but not as to our Prayers  Theoph. 
Our Prayers are Christian Sacrifices, ascending up like the Incense, and the Evening Sacrifice, Psal. 142. 2. Offer unto God thanksgiving, and pay thy Vows unto the most highest, and call upon me in the time of trouble, saith the Prophet David, Psal. 50. 14, 15. So Tertullian Phraseth it, 
d Lib. Ad Scapulam. Sacrificamus Deo pro salute Imperat. sed prece pura.  We sacrifice unto God for the health of the Emperor, but with pure Prayer. And in his Apology for Christians, Chap. 30. 
e Offero opimam & majorem Hostiam orationem de carne pudica, etc.  I offer to God, saith he, a more excellent Sacrifice, even Prayer, proceeding out of pure lips and an innocent heart, and from the Holy Ghost. So Clemens Alexandrinus, Lib. 7. Stromatum, 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We honour God by Prayer, and send up this best and most holy Sacrifice. Our Prayers therefore, are the most acceptable Sacrifices from us to God. (Of your transcendent Sacrifice of the Mass, we may, God willing, treat hereafter.) Again in his first Tom. Lib. De ver a Relig cap. ult. he tells us. That the service of the Body may be due to Princes; the service of the Soul, to God. He tells us farther, 
g Ecce unum Deum colo, quisquis Angel. diligit. hunc Deum certus sum, etc.  Behold I worship one God, the Fountain of all things, and the Angels that love God, I am sure they love me: Whosoever abides in him, and can hear the Prayers of Men, in him he heareth me, and in him he helps me. 
h Religat ergo nos Religio uni Omnipotenti Deo.  Religion therefore binds me to one Omnipotent God. The good Father often tells us, That the Blessed Saints and Angels expect no such service from us, but expressly, saith he, they direct us to pray to God. 
i Psal 96. Tom. 8. Omnes Sancti & Angeli, etc. Ad ejus cultum, etc.  All the Saints and Angels seek his glory whom they love, and they study to draw all whom they love to his Worship, and to his Contemplation, and to pray to him. To this effect elsewhere he tells us, 
a Lib. de Pastoribus, c. 8. Sunt montes boni, sc. autores divin script.  The Authors of Holy Scripture are good hills, and when we look unto them, they will send you back to God, in whom standeth your help. 
b Si in iis spem posueris contristabuntur.  If you put confidence in them, they will grieve: The Angel, saith he, that related many Mysteries to John, being worshipped by him, he calls him back to God, 
c Tanquam levantem oculos ad Montem, revocat ad Deum.  as one that did lift up his eyes to the hills, saying, See thou do it not; worship God: I am thy Fellow-servant. 
d Enar. upon Psal. 64. 3. Solus ibi, ex his qui carnem, etc.  Again he showeth, How Christ is our High Priest entered within the veil, who only, of all that lived in the flesh, there doth make Intercession for us: And this, saith he, was shadowed under the Law, for in the first Temple, only the High Priest entered into the Holiest of all, and offered Sacrifice for the People, standing without. Once more, in the 10th Book of his Confessions, chap. 42. St Augustin speaks fully against Invocation of Angels, 
e Quem invenirem, qui me reconciliaret Tibi?  Whom may I find, saith he, to reconcile me to thee, O God Shall I go to the Angels? With what Prayer, with what Sacraments? Many desirous to return to Thee, and distrusting themselves, as I hear, have tried this way, and have fallen into the curiosity of Visions, and became meet for Delusions. And now, after all that you have heard out of St Augustin, I pray judge whether Bellarmin had reason to appeal to him, for the confirmation of the Invocation of Saints.  Phil. 
Notwithstanding all your insulting Triumphs, what hath been brought by Bellarmin out of St Augustin, hath not been impertinent. But you forget one notable passage which Bellarmin quotes out of St Augustin, in his 18th Chapter of this Book and Controversy (you promised to take these Testimonies into consideration in your own season, but you have forgotten it) 
f Aljuvet nos Cypr. Orationibus suis. Lib. 7. de Baptism. Contra Donatist. c. 10.  It is a formal Invocation: Let Cyprian help us with his Prayers.  Theoph. 
'Tis no Invocation of Cyprian, but St Augustins desire put up to God, That the Blessed Martyr Cyprians Prayers might benefit him. It implies the Supplication of the Saints in Heaven, for the People of God in general, and his Prayer to God, That he, with others, might reap the fruit of their Prayers.  Phil. 
I will conclude with Beauties last Argument; the Miracles that have attested this Doctrine, whereby the Saints and Martyrs have demonstrated, That they do hear our Prayers, and can help us.  Theoph. 
For a general Answer hereunto, we have already showed out of St Augustin, That Miracles may be done at the Monuments of the Saints, and themselves may appear unto Votaries in their Temples, and yet know nothing neither of the Miracle or the Apparition. God, by the ministry of Angels, working Miracles and Cures at their Shrines, for a Testimony unto the Faith for which these Martyrs died.  Phil. 
This general Answer will not serve: For the Learned Cardinal proves, out of the 3d Book of St Bernard's Life, That the Holy Father, Preaching at Tholouse, against such who denied the Invocation of Saints, before all the Congregation blessed Loaves of Bread with the Sign of the Cross, and offered this trial of his Doctrine, That if it were true, all who had Diseases in the great City, eating of these Loaves, should be healed: And so multitudes were healed of their Infirmities. Here you see, God did attest the Doctrine of Invocation of Saints by Miracle.  Theoph. 
Bernard lived in the 12th Century, and so the Testimony runs low: But withal, the Abbot who wrote those four Books, as a Legend of Bernard's Life, suited the fabulous, credulous humours of these Times; he makes him a Wonder-worker thro-out. I well remember, That above 30 Years since, being a Novice in the University, and reading this account of St Bernard's Life, I could not choose but abhor the notorious Forgeries of the Writer I pray read and judge.  Phil. 
I see you will not be convinced, and therefore I will proceed no farther in vain.  Theoph. 
I give you thanks for your release. It hath been no small trouble to search your Autorities, and discover in most of them either Impertinency or Forgery. And withal, I pray observe, That as your Pretensions unto the Testimony of Holy Scripture, of General and Provincial Councils for 700 years after Christ; of Fathers for the three first Centuries, have been altogether ineffectual to prove your Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints: That as your pretensions unto the Testimony of Fathers for the three next Centuries, many of them have been impertinent, others forged; and the rest contradicted, either by themselves, or others in their time: So you have not attempted to show for the practice of this Doctrine, That it was received by any Church in her public Offices: and therefore, at most, it must pass for the private Opinion of some Doctors, not the consent of the Church, until your Church did introduce it, among other Innovations: You do not show how early, because you cannot within 600 years of Christ, and afterwards the Superstition crept in upon the World slowly, and by insensible degrees; one National Church following the example of another. 
a Niceph. lib. 15. c. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  We read indeed in the Greek Church, of one Peter Gnapheus, or Fullo (as the Latins interpret) who in the latter end of the fifth Century, was by craft Patriarch of Antioch; he was an Heretic and Theopaschite, maintaining, That the Godhead suffered upon the Cross: and he added to that Trisagium (Holy is the Lord, Holy is the Strong, Holy is the Immortal) who was Crucified for us. And for this cause he was condemned for an Hereseic in a Council at Rome, Felix the third being Pope, Anno Christi 483. This Peter Fullo, 
ᵇ E●n. Tom. 3. p. 600.  as Nicephorus likewise shows, appointed, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  That in their Prayers Men should call upon the Mother of God, and Invoke her Divine Name. Now it is observable, That Baronius speaks much of this P. Fullo, and of his Heresy, and quotes Nicephorus; and yet takes no notice of his introducing the Invocation of the Blessed Virgin, but tells us another blind Story, How this Fullo consecrated one Xenaias a Persian Bishop of Hierapolis, before he was Baptised, and said, 
b Dixit, sufficere pro Bapt. Consecrationem, Anno Christi, 483.  That his Consecration might suffice instead of Baptism. He farther observes, how this Bishop Xenaias proved a great Eiconoclast, and destroyer of Images, and so glories, that the Enemies of Image worship had such a precedent, as a barbarous Persian Unbaptised; mean while, never considering how it may be retorted upon him and his Church, That an arch Heretic, Petrus Fullo, first introduced the Invocation of Saints into some parts of the Church Catholic, in the public Office of Prayers, That Simon Magus, and some Jewish Christians, first Invocated Angels: That the Heathen Philosophy brought in the Intercession of middle Deities. Will you now be pleased to hear some of our Arguments against this Doctrine?  Phil. 
Willingly: For I expect they should be like your Answers, of no great moment, and so put off with the less difficulty.  Theoph. 
You may please yourself with your own conceits; but I am confident, that upon serious consideration, they will perplex even the refractory, and convince the Ingenious Reader.  Phil. 
Their goodness depends not upon your Testimony: Let me hear them.  Theoph. 
Our Blessed Saviour taught his Disciples to Pray: He gave them a Prayer, which should be a Form and Pattern to all succeeding Generations: and therefore he said, After this manner pray ye, Matth. 6. And Tertullian in his Book De Oratione, calls the Lords Prayer, Legem Orationis, The Law and Rule of Prayer. Now in that Prayer we have no Invocation of Saints, but rather Direction given when we Pray, to call upon God the Father which is in Heaven.  Phil. 

c Ibid. c. 20. Non de eo qui Orandus, sed de rebus quae petendie sunt, admonuit Discipulos.  Bellarmin answers this Argument, saying, That our Blessed Saviour here taught his Disciples. not to whom they should make their Prayers, but what they should ask in Prayer.  Theoph. 
Bellarmin saith, but he doth not prove. The Disciples request to Christ, was, concerning the matter and manner of Prayer both, Lord, teach us to Pray, Matth. 69. And our Saviour answers both, After this manner therefore pray ye: and when ye pray, say, Our Father, etc. Luke 11. 2.  Phil. 
Yours, at best, is but a Negative Argument: That because our Blessed Saviour did not in this place teach us to desire the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven, therefore we ought not so to do: Wherefore do you desire your Friends that are living to pray for you?  Theoph. 
Because we have warrant so to do from other places of Holy Scripture; But neither here, nor elsewhere, have our Saviour or the Apostles taught us to call upon the Saints in Heaven for the assistance of their Prayers.  Phil. 
By this Argument, as Bellarmin shows, we ought not to pray to God the Son. or God the Holy Ghost, because our Saviour hath here taught us to say only, Our Father.  Theoph. 
The Father is not in the Lord's Prayer taken Personally, but as God. The Blessed Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, is our Father by Creation, and Redemption, and Adoption. Hence your Learned Jesuit Maldonate upon the place, 
a Magis illorum probo sententiam, qui totam hic Trinit. etc.  I approve rather their Opinion, who hold, That the whole Trinity is here called, Our Father. And it is near unto Blasphemy to say with Bellarmin, That the Exclusive or Negative Argument from this Prayer, holds as well against Christ and the Holy Ghost, as against the Saints. The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are essentially one Creator and Father of all Men. The Saints are Creatures, and no comparison between them, or consequence from one to the other.  Phil. 
You have used yourself so much to bitterness of Speech, That it is become even natural to you, to impute unto our Doctor's Blasphemy, and Forgery, and Impertinency, and Folly●; and what not? I pray produce your Arguments, and forbear your Censures.  Theoph. 
As the Apostle spoke in another sense, so I, for an Apology, must say, You have constrained me; but I forbear. The next Argument against Invocation of Saints, is that of St Paul, Rom. 10. 14. How shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Seeing we must believe only in God and in Christ, not in the Saints, therefore we must not call upon them: We may believe the Saints, but not believe in the Saints. Now the words of the Apostle are, How shall they call upon him, 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  in whom they have not believed.  Phil. 
Bellarmin answers this Argument, by showing, That the Apostle speaks of calling upon God. Now we must believe on him, before we can call upon him.  Theoph. 
Must we not believe also in the Saints, before we call upon them?  Phil. 
Yes, 
c Non posse eum Sanctos invocare qui non suo modo credit in Sanctos.  Bellarmin tells you immediately after, That he cannot call upon the Saints, who doth not in some sort believe in them.  Theoph. 
Bellarmin saith this, Suo more, to pervert the Holy Scripture with his corrupt Glosses and Interpretations: The Fathers are positive, That to believe in him, refers only to God. 
d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  Gregory Nazianzen tells us, It is not the same to believe in any one, and to believe any thing of him; the one belongs to God, the other to any Creature. So Ruffinus upon the Creed, By the syllable of this Preposition, In, the Creator is distinguished from the Creature; and Divine, from humane things. We believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost: We believe the Holy Church. These were the ancient Rules of Faith, until your Doctors gave us new. And yet Aquinas here leaves you: 
a Catena aurea. In Joannem, c. 14.  for upon Job. 14. 1. he observes, That Christ saying, Believe also in me, testifies unto his Disciples, That he is their God: for although we may believe another, we must believe in God only.  Phil. 
You multiply Quotations in vain: For you heard that Bellarmin did not say absolutely, but that suo modo, We may believe in the Saints.  Theoph. 
'Tis suo modo in truth: For the Ancients allow no such Qualification.  Phil. 
You may excuse the Expression, because he shows out of Holy Scripture, that we may believe in the Saints. In St Paul's Epistle to Philemon, ver. 5. Hearing of thy Love and Faith which thou hast towards the Lord Jesus, and towards all Saints. The Griginal is, Thy Love and Faith 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  in all the Saints  Theoph 
He hath found one place, and none like it, to justify his confident Assertions: But you must understand that Text right, by a fit transposition of the terms: Hearing of thy Faith in Christ; and of thy Love towards the Saints: So Calvin reads it, and Firinus a Learned Jesuit, in their Commentaries upon the place.  Phil. 
You will turn and wind every Text to your own purpose: But Bellarmin explains himself concerning this believing in the Saints: 
c Credere esse Sanctos in iis, ut in patronis sperare, eosque ut tales diligere.  To believe that they are Saints, to hope in them as Patrons; and as such, to love them.  Theoph. 
It seems by your Cardinal's Interpretation of himself, these three Theological Virtues, Faith, Hope. and Love, contrary to their Nature, must be referred objectively to the Saints; and so Adoration, Invocation, acts of Religious and Divine Worship, must have the Saints for their object, according to your Doctors, who invert and pervert the frame and order of the ancient Theology by their new Models, and modern Inventions. By this rule, in our Lady's Psalter, as you call it, many Versicles of the 150 Psalms of David, are Blasphemously perverted: The Name of God the Lord put out, and the name of our Lady put in. O Lady, How are they multiplied that trouble me, Psal. 3. ver. 1. Ponder my words, O Lady, and consider my Meditations, Psal. 5. 1. O Lady, rebuke me not in thine Indignation, Psal. 6 10. Unto thee, O Lady, lift I up my Soul, etc. Psal. 25. 1. Have mercy upon me, O Lady, who art called the Mother of mothers, according to the tender Bowels of thy Compassions, cleanse me from all mine Iniquities, Psal. 51. 1. And so it is carried on throughout the whole book of Psalms, until you come to the close, Praise our Lady in her Holiness, Laud her in her Miracles, and Virtues. Psalm. 150. 1. This is the new mode more Romano. This is the new Devotion of your Church.  Phil. 
Show where our Church doth own or countenance such extravagancies.  Theoph. 
This Psalter is of Cardinal Bonaventures making; a Franciscan Friar, zealous for the Virgin Mari's superlative honour, (as ever was the while order of Franciscan's.) It is at large printed in the fourth tome of his works, under public Licence, 
a Jussu Sixti quin ti permissu superiorum.  by the command of Pope Sixtus the fifth, and the licence of his superiors, and for this and other his Seraphical piety; he was afterward Canonised for a Saint.  Phil. 
It cannot be of that Learned Schoolman's Composure, 
b 3. Sent. dist. 3. qu. 2. dâ. Cavendum, ne dum Matris Exoel. ampliatus. etc.  for he writes against such trancendencies ascribed unto the Blessed Virgin. And gives this pious caution. We must beware lest whilst the Fxcellency of the Mother is amplified, the glory of the son be Eclipsed; and so in Him she also be provoked to anger; who desires more the honour of her Son, then of herself. And he further answers that Objection, That the honour of the Mother Redownds to the Son. No saith Herald 
c Non omnis honor qui filio acbetur Maeri tribuendus.  All the Honour due to the Son must not be given to the Mother.  Theoph. 
He that sayeth, all Honour due to Christ is not to be given to his Mother, supposeth that some Honour due to Christ is to be given to her. And that must be divine Honour: and withal because he was not of the Opinion of other Doctors, that she was Conceived without Original sin; he spoke these words, but he concludes, She was bo●n without sin, Sanctified immediately after her Conception in her Mother's Womb. That She never sinned actually; and could not sin after her Conception by the holy Ghost, because She was confirmed in Good as the blessed Saints and Angels in Heaven. However it is evident, such a Blasphemous Psalter there is, and (if ye will have it so) ●oisted into his works, to procure the greater Reputation thereunto. And so you confess your own Authors are corrupted for the advantage of your cause. Mean while, your Index Expurgatorius, your high Commission Court of the Inquisition serves not, it seems, to Expunge out of Authors Blasphemous Spurious Writings, if they any way agree with the Genius of your Church; but to Expunge sound and Orthodox Divinity, which sui es not with your new Principle and doctrines, but of such Extravagancies hereafter. I pray tell me, can you Imagine so large a Psalter consisting of an 150. Psalms, together with other Blasphemous Hymns and Additions, could be permitted to come abroad into the world under his Name, and in his works, with so much Licence and Authority, if it were not well pleasing to those in the greatest Authority in your Church. Now I have instanced in this Psalter to show how ye do believe and hope in the Saints, and so Rationally conclude that you ought to call upon them. But we have not so learned Christ to believe and trust in man, lest the curse of God should light upon us. To proceed therefore in our Arguments against your Doctrine. We have already showed that your Doctors can make no proof, or give any assurance that the Saints in Heaven do hear our Prayers, and therefore that we should call upon them in vain. But yet further as to our thoughts and mental Prayers, the Saints cannot discern them, and therefore are not meet Objects of our Invocation,  Phil. 
Yes in the glass of the Trinity, even men's thoughts may be represented to them.  Theoph. 
Never tell me what may be; but do you believe they do discern our though's? you know in Scripture, to search the hearts, and know the thoughts of men, is made an incommunicable property of the divine Nature. Thou even thou only knowest the hearts of men, saith Solomon 1 Kings 8. 39  Phil. 
To this Bellarmin answers, that God only naturally, and by hiw own virtue knows men's thoughts; but the Saints by Revelation, and the beatific Vision.  Theoph. 
These are mere Dictates without proof. Devices to shift of unanswerable Arguments. How can your great Doctor prove that God reveles the thoughts of Men, and Women, and Children, and their mental Prayers to the Saints in Heaven, or that they behold them in the Beatifical Vision: whereas he is foret to acknowledge, that other things are concealed from them? for instance, neither Angels, nor Saints, know the day of Judgement.  Phil. 
This wise discourse signifies but little. For if the Saints in glory cannot difcern nor hear mental Prayer, let us put up vocal Supplications, unto them.  Theoph. 
If you cry aloud, and they cannot hear you, what then? however there is more in this consideration, than so. Would you have the blessed Virgin as soon interceded for Hypocrites. as for sincere Christians? shall Peter admit you all promiscuously into Heaven? such Mediators, as you make the Saints, aught to be qualified for their high office, with a discerning faculty of the sincerity of men's hearts, who call upon them, and withal when men are speechless upon their deathbeds, and most need the help of their Fraiers, by your last supposition, they must go without them.  Phil. 
Why is this Argument, of not discerning the thoughts of men's hearts; of force against the Saint's Intercession in Heaven, more than against the Intercession, and prayers of Saints upon Earth for one another;  Theoph. 
Yourselves make the wide difference between the Intercession of the Saints in heaven, and of the faithful here upon Earth. And that shall be the ground of our next Argument, against your Invocation of Saints and their Intercession, because you make their Mediation much to derogate from the Meditation and Intercession of Christ.  Phil. 
That indeed is a material Objection, but how do ye prove it? 
a Ibid. Cap. 20.  Bellarmin saith expressly. We do not call upon the Saints to perform the Offioe of Christ; but only that they would assist us with their Prayers, the more easily for us to obtain our requests from God thro' Christ. He acknowledges Christ to be the one only Mediator between God and man, by way of Redemption and satisfying the debt: and by Nature as being God and man: and because he only stands in need of no other Mediator: whatsoever others obtain of God either for themselves, or others, they obtain it thro' Christ. Now although the Saints and Angels do not satisfy for our sins, and pay the debt, yet they may beseech God for Christ's fake to forgive them.  Theop. 
If this were all, we would not much contend with them about the Saints Intercession, as prejudicial to the Mediation and Intercession of Christ. But the Doctrine of your Schools goes further. That the Saints intercede for us, not only by their Prayers, but also by their merits; 
b Sent. l. 4. dist. 45. ad finem.  so Peter Lombard the Mr. of the Sentences Interprets the Act of Intercession. We pray to the Saints to Intercede for us. i e. That their merits may become our assistance, and Immediately before he saith, 
c Intercedunt merito. & affectu.  The Saints interceded with God for us by their Merits, whilst their Merits plead for us, and by their Love, desiring to have our requests granted. Bonaventure explains him. Although, first he, the Saints in glory, Non sunt in statu merendi, are not in a state of Meriting and are sufficiently recompensed for their Merits in this life, 
d In 4. Sent. dist. 45.  yet because they did supererogate much, They have obtained such honour by there Merits, not only to deserve beatitude, and glory for themselves, but also to prove suffragans for others, so that he who was before unworthy; by Praying to the Saints, thro' their Patronage becomes worthy. Now we say that thro' the Merits of Christ, we who are otherwise altogether unworthy, have access, with boldness unto the Father, and therefore we implore his Patronage, and Advocation, and Intercession, and take him as the only Mediator between God and man: and for all this we have the full and express Authority of God's word. Thro Him, we have access by one Spirit unto the Father; In whom we have boldness, and access with confidence thro' faith in Him. Ephe: 2. 18. and 3. 12. Again. If any Man Sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, 
ᵉ Quia multa supererog. suis meritis adepti sunt locum, etc.  and he is the Propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 1. 2. Again. There is one God, and one Mediator between God and Man,, the Man Christ Jesus who gave himself a Ransom for us. 1 Tim. 2. v. 5. 6.  Phil. 
I have showed above how Bellarmin acknowledgeth Christ, to be the one only Mediator, by way of redemption, and solution of the debt, but the Saints may be Mediators by way of Intercession.  Theoph. 
If you meant only the Intercession of Prayers, it were tolerable but your Doctors bring in the intercession of their Merits; and that implies, satisfaction of the debt, at least in some part their Supererogation supplying our defect.  Phil. 
This refers unto another Point to be discussed hereafter, touching the Saints Merits, and Supererogation; and therefore we will not now determine it.  Theoph. 
Mean while upon your own gross suppositions you make the Saints so to Interpose with God for us, as to Entrench upon the Intercession of Christ, who is therefore represented to be our Advocate, because, He is a propitiation for Sin. 1 John 2. 1, 2. As our Mediator, because, He gave himself a Ransom for all. 1 Tim. 2. 6.  Phil. 
You may take our Blessed Saviour as the principal in Intercession, and satisfaction; and the Blessed Saints may come in as Inferior Advocates, and Patrons.  Theoph. 
This is the Rock, against which your Schoolmen generally Shipwreck Conscience. First, They take all things taught or practised in the Church of Rome as infallibly true, and then when any thing is objected out of God's word, or the Testimony, of the Ancients against them, they salve themselves by a distinction So you have in Saint's worship, and Image worship, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; a Supreme and inferior religious worship, composeth the difference. So Christ is the Invisible head of the Church Catholic, and the Pope the visible and Ministerial. So the works of the Law do not justify together with faith, but good works do. So you may hold two principles with the Manichees. For although God be the only Author and Creator of good things; there may be any other first principle of evil things. And thus we can have no standing rule and measure of Truth, and Religion, as long as the wit of Man, shall adventure to delude them by the subtlety of a distinction.  Phil. 
How can you attain to any true knowledge of things; if you take away the use of distinguishing.  Theoph. 
Not the use but the abuse of distinguishing is our grievance; when subtle men elude the most evident Testimonies of the Scripture, and the Fathers against them, which distinctions minted in their own brains; and only serving, to their present purpose.  Phil. 
Our Doctors excellently distinguish in this work of Mediation. Namely,, That Christ is the Mediator between God and Man; and the blessed Saints, are Mediators between us and Christ, 
a 3 Sent. Dist. 3. qu. 2.  So Bonaventure of the Blessed Virgin. She is the Mediatrix between us and Christ, as Christ is Mediator between us and God. 
b l. 9 Moral. Just. c. 10. Sancti. apud Christum. etc.  And so Azorius asserts of all the blessed Saints. The Saints are our Advocates and Patrons, with Christ, and Christ with God. And some of our Doctors give an excellent reason, of this distinction They say, Christ is not only an Advocate, but also a judge, examining the Merit of the supplicant; and how shall a poor Sinner come unto him without an Intercessor to find Acceptance? so the 
c Antonius' 4. sum. titulo 15. Deus providet nobis. etc.  Archbishop of Florence, and therefore, saith he, God hath furnished us with an Advocatrix, who is gentle, and sweet, without any mixture of sharpness, according to that notable saying, of St Bernard, (which Antonius citys) O man thou hast a secure access to God, where the Mother stands before the son, and the son before the father, the Mother showing her Breast, and Paps, and the son his Side, and the Wounds unto his Father.  Theoph. 
This is a new Model of Divinity to the purpose, we had thought the Love of Christ towards poor Sinners, could find no parallel. That the good Shepherd needed no solicitation, and mediation of others, to bring home the lost sheep; he came down from Heaven to save it. We find he has graciously invited the weary and heavy laden to come unto him; do ye find where he puts them from him, since the work of our Redemption is perfected? The Apostle tells us, he can have compassion of our infirmities, and be touched with a fellow feeling, being in all points Tempted like as we are, yet without Sin. And therefore we may come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain Mercy. Feb. 4 15. 16. That we have a Merciful and Faithful High Priest, to make Reconciliation for the Sins of the People. Heb. 2. 17. That he is able to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him; seeing he ever liveth to make Intercession for them. Heb. 7. 25 All this and much more we Read to our unspeakable Comfort, but nothing of his severe Inquisition, and Judging them that come to him, before his second coming unto Judgement. And yet I must tell you, you have been too favouroble in the discovery,; this Mystery of Iniquity works higher than you have Represented. The blessed Virgin must not only entreat, but command her Son. It is a Notorious form of Prayer among you 
d O Felix Puerpera Jure Matris impera.  O happy Mother, upon a Mother's authority command thy Son. And although 
e Ibin. c. 16 Qui● nostrum hoc dicit.  Bellarmin asked who used that Form, as though he were ignorant thereof: yet as being conscious, he immediately after Exenses and justifies the Prayer. 
a Si Josh. 10. dicitur obedire. etc.  For, saith he, if it be said Joshua the 10. The Lord obeyed the voice of a Man, why may not, after some sort, the Son of God be said to obey his Mother.  Theoph. 
Aliquo modo, Your Doctors can make any thing good, but in the first place, it is not there said. That the Lord obeyed the voice of Man. So indeed your vulgar Translation renders it, but according to the Original, we read it thus. ᵇ That the Lord harkened unto the voice of a Man. Josh. 10. 14. And so the septuagint, and if God did obey the voice of a Man, yet we do not read that Joshua did command the Lord; but only the Sun, and Moon, Sun stand thou still in Gibeon, and Thou Moon in the valley of Asalon, and therefore, 
c Jure Matris impera.  upon the authority of a Mother command thy Son; it was Intolerable to say so, when Christ was in the Flesh, and subject to his Parents; much more now he being ascended into Glory. You do not read that the Blessed Virgin laid any command upon her Son on Earth.  Phil. 
You may take these as high Expressions of a devout Soul, manifesting her confidence in the blessed Mother, to obtain any thing of her Son, and Saviour.  Theoph. 
Such extatic devotion hath led many of your Church beyond all reason, and Religion, in their superstitious addresses to the Saints; and upon this occasion given, I will insist more upon your Extravagancies, in the Invocation, and worship of our Lady. You salute Her the Queen of Heaven, and Mother of Mercies: and so your Doctors have assigned unto Her more than half the Kingdom with the Father. As the great King Abassuerus promised unto Queen Ester. 
d Gabriel Biel, Supra Canon. Missae lect. 80. etc.  One of your Schoolmen tells us, That God reserving the execution of Justice to himself, hath granted to the Virgin Mother, the dispensation of Grace, and Mercy. 
e Bernardinus in suo Mariali. etc.  By another we are taught, to appeal from the Bar of God's Justice, unto the Throne of Mercy, of the Blessed Virgin. And whereas the Apostle exhorts, to come boldly unto the Throne of Grace, that we may obtain Mercy. The Archbishop of Florence tells us, That 
f Maria est thronus Christi. etc.  Mary is this throne wherein Christ rested, and that it is necessary all such should be Justified and saved, unto whom she turnsher favourable countenance, and for whom she, proves an advocate and Bernardinus further 
● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  assures us, That 
a In Christo tanquam in capite influente, in Mariâ tanquam, etc.  as Grace is in Christ, as in the head and fountain, so is it in Mary as in the neck transmitting; So that no Grace can descend from Heaven upon the sons of men, but thro' the hands and conveyance of the Blessed Virgin. Lay all this together, and you will soon perceive how by a strange emulation of her Votaries the superstition is improved, even into the highest degree of blasphemy.  Phil. 
Our Church is not concerned in these follies of private persons and superstitious Votaries.  Theoph. 
You have passed a just Censure upon them, yet you will find they derived their imaginations from others before them of great Authority in your Church. You may turn Canisius the Jesuits Catechism, set forth in a large Folio, under the licence of Pope Pius the fift. In his second chap. of the Lords Prayer, and the Angel Gabriel's Salutation: quaest. 18 among others he citys out of Damascen, Bernard, and Anselm, these passages. 
b Domina peccatoris orationem accipe, To solum gaudii spem habentis, etc.  O Lady receive the prayer of a sinner, who doth fervently love and worship thee as his only hope and joy, and pledge of Salvation. Shake off the burden of my sins, and subdue temptations, and guide me in holiness, that by thy conduct I may obtain eternal bliss. 
c Invituperabilem Deipara spem tuam, etc. Omnipotens auxtlium tuum.  I shall be saved under thine irreprovable hope; having your protection as a breastplate, and your omnipotent assistance. Blessed Mother of God open unto us the Gate of mercy, that trusting in thee we may not err and may be freed from all evil: 
d Tu enimes salus generis humani.  For thou art the Salvation of Mankind. 
e Omnem spem meam in Te repono Mater luminis.  I put my whole trust in thee, o Mother of Light. This he citys out of Damascen. Out of Bernard he brings these passages. 
f Praecessit nos Regina nostra, praecessit, ut fiducialiter sequantur Dominam, etc.  Our Quen is gone before, received into her glory, that we her servants may call after her. Draw us that we may run after Thee, because of the savour of thine Ointments. Cant. 1. The Blessed Virgin ascending up on high, even she will give gifts unto men. For what should hinder, seeing neither power nor a will is wanting? She is the merciful Queen of Heaven, and the Mother of Gods only Son. Let him forbear to magnify thy mercy, who hath found thee wanting, when he called upon thee. O thou Blessed, who can take the length and breadth and height and depth of thy mercy? Out of Anselm this. 
g Peripsam gratiam quâ Te Deus omnipotens exaltavit, & omnia Tibi, etc.  We beseech thee o Lady by that grace whereby almighty God hath highly exalted thee, and given to thee together with himself all things possible, that Thou wouldst obtain for us such fullness of grace which thou hast deserved to bring us to Glory. Do thou only will our Salvation, and we shall be saved, help us therefore most benign Lady, and not remembering the multitude of our sins incline thy heart to pity us. Again, if your Church doth not approve, how come your Superiors to licence such books? why does your Sacred College of Inquisitors strain at Gnats in othered men's writings, & swallow these Camels? If your Doctors did abhor such blasphemies, they would expunge them, they would bend their interests and their studies against them. But the naked truth is, That the Orders of the Franciscan's, and the Jesuits most of them, have so vehemently espoused the honour of our Lady, that nothing comes amiss to advance it; and these having the greatest influence upon the Court of Rome, have in a manner silenced all such as among yourselves would have contradicted. For Instance, in that great Question about the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin in her Mother's womb, the Dominicans were Orthodox, and in the negative, maintaining well, That all who descended from the loins of Adam by natural generation were conceived in sin, infected with original corruption. That only Christ was without sin; and therefore his Blessed Mother was not free at least from original sin. That if Christ was her God and Saviour, (as she acknowledges in the first verse of her Magnificat,) therefore she was a sinner. For he was therefore called Jesus, or Saviour, because he should save his People from their sins. But the other party effected that by power and interest, which they could not make good by Argument: & by plurality of votes they prevailed in the 
a Concil. Trid. sess. 5. Declarat tum haec sancta Synodus, non esse suae, etc.  Council of Trent, That the Virgin Mother should not be included within the Canon of original sin; but the Constitutions of Sixtus 4tus the Pope should be observed. The same faction had before prevailed upon the Pope and Court to establish a Solemn Feast in memory of her Immaculate Conception; they procured the Edict of Pope Xystus quartus, that none should write or dispute against it: and so the opinion of the Immaculate Conception is fairly made a Doctrine of the Church, seeing the Feast is solemnised by the Authority of the Pope. For Pope Sixtus anᵒ 1476 publisheth his Bull 
b Vid. Bin. tom. 8. pag. 1051, 1052.  to establish the Feast with great Indulgences to all such as should devoutly keep the Feast, and be present at the solemn Offices and Services of it: and seven years after he sets forth another Bull, severely forbidding any one to speak or write against the Immaculate Conception, and the Council of Trent Confirms that Decree of Xystus. You see therefore how matters are carried by favour and affection, under show of piety, & devotion, & honour towards the Mother of God; they have introduced heretical opinions and presumptuous blasphemies, whereof I have given some instances.  Phil. 
I pray forbear your railing, & keep close to the point of Saints Invocation, and bring your exceptions against the public practice of the Church, if any you have, and trouble not yourself and me with personal extravagancies and fancies.  Theoph. 
I thought a Pope's Bull for the Celebration of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, and the confirmation thereof by your darling Synod, the famous Council of Trent, had been no personal extravagance.  Phil. 
What is that to the Invocation of Saints & the Virgin Mother? speak to the point, or else conclude.  Theoph. 
Yes, the Bull of Sixtus the fourth confirms much such extravagancies. For in that Decree the Virgin Mary is styled 
a Been tom. 8. p. 1051. Kegina Coeli, Stella matutina, via misericord. etc.  Queen of Heaven; the morning Star, the way of mercy, Mother of grace, and the comforter of Mankind.  Phil. 
Leave these digressions, & speak to the point of Saints Invocation.  Theoph. 
I am persuaded, as you do not approve, so you cannot justify such passages and expressions, and therefore you have not patience to hear of them; but I will follow your direction and contract my observations within the public Offices and Breviaries. 
b Ibid. c. 17. Maria Matergratiae, Mater misericordiae, tu nos ab host, etc.  Bellarmin tells us the Church Catholic in her Hymn to the Virgin Mary, prays thus; O Marry Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, Do thou defend us from the enemy; and and receive us in the hour of death. If we may judge of words by their signification, doubtless this prayer imports more than barely a desire of her assistance by her prayers.  Phil. 
Bellarmin in the same place gives you a general rule against such sinister constructions: 
c Nos non agere de verbis, at sensis verborum.  We dispute not of the words, but of their sense Now the sense of our Church in all such petitions, is, that the Blessed Virgin and the Saints by their prayers and by their merits would procure these things for us.  Theoph. 
Although this may be the sense of your Church; yet it is not the signification of the words; and methinks to avoid the just occasion of scandal given to your adversaries by them, & the occasion of error and delusion given to your undiscerning votaries, your Church should have expressed herself in more inoffensive and justifiable terms. Bellarmine gives a 2d instance in the Hymn of the Apostles, he saith, the Church prays thus: 
d Quorum praecepto subditur, salus & languor omvium, sanent aegros, etc.  Let the Holy Apostles unto whose command both the welfare and languish of all men are submitted; let them heal us who are morally sick, and restore us unto a life of virtues. If Command here must signify Intercession and supplication: your Church would do well and wisely to set forth a new Dictionary, to interpret words and sentences, not after the common sense and signification of them, but after the Roman gloss. Mean while an impartial Judge must needs conclude these interpretations to be forced, only to salve the inconveniencies and absurdities of such prayers: and if your Church had designed only to invocate the Saints in Heaven for their Intercession with God by their prayers, she would have made use of more humble and suitable expressions; but making the Intercession of Saints to consist as well in their merits as in their prayers; calling upon them as well for their patronage, as their Intercession. This, I say, hath prepared the way for all those forementioned presumtions and blasphemies in your addresses to them, and Invocation of them. If God be the Father of grace and mercy, and Mary the Mother, who would imagine otherwise, but that these heavenly blessings flow originally and immediately from them both.  Phil. 
It is obvious that the Blessed Virgin is called the Mother of mercy, because she is the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the fountain of Grace and mercy.  Theoph. 
Your Doctors do not teach you so to understand it, seeing they represent Christ as a severe Judge towards a poor sinner, and Mary their Advocate for mercy. You have heard how in the distribution of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Province of Justice is allotted to the Son, and of Mercy to the Virgin Mother. Your Florentin Archbishop tells us; That upon the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin into Heaven, (as your Doctors have carefully imprinted that belief in the hearts of the credulous people, the whole person of the Virgin Mary, both Body and Soul, is taken up into Heaven.) I say we are told that when she was translated into Heaven, the Seraphims attended upon her, and earnestly solicited her stay and society with their sublime Order. But she deliberately answered; 
a Non est honum hominem esse solum.  It is not good the Man should be alone, meaning her Son, and that She must assist him in the redemption of God's people by her Compassion, and in their Glorification by her Intercession. That when for the Iniquity of the world her Son should be ready to destroy the Earth a second time with a flood, she may appear as the bow in the clouds, to oppose his fury, and mind him of his Covenant and promise. These are the luxuriant fancies of your Archbishop: suitable hereunto I read of 
b Vide Chemnit, exam. Trid. Council p. 3. de Invoc. Sanct.  Pictures in your Temples representing Christ in his indignation, casting darts and thunderbolts, and the Blessed Virgin standing between his wrath and sinful men, and receiving the darts into her bosom.  Phil. 
Still you return to the fancies of private Doctors and Painters, your promised more authentic proofs.  Theoph. 
What think you of that great promise made to uphold man immediately after his fall, concerning Christ the seed of the woman; who should break the serpent's head, that is overcome the Devil and all infernal powers? Your vulgar Translation (which must be more authentic than the Original) reads the Pronoun in the feminine, 
c Ipsa conteret caput. serpentis. Gen. 3.  She shall bruise his head: instead of, He shall bruise, as the Hebrew and the Septuagint read it: And hereupon your Doctors refer the promise unto the Virgin Mary, as though in all things she must have the pre-eminence.  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows, how the vulgar Translation varies. 
d Tom. 1. lib. 2. de Verbo Dei c. 12.  He hath seen a Copy which reads it likewise in the masculine.  Theoph. 
What he hath searched and found we know not; but your Translation generally runs in the feminine. And he acknowledgeth the Latin Fathers, being misled by the vulgar Translation, take it in the feminine. And upon that same account your Doctors refer the Prophecyto the Virgin.  Phil. 
Bellarmin shows in the second place, that he saw an Hebrew Copy which had the feminine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Theoph. 
This observation is like the former, upon some corrupt Copy, against the general reading of the Hebrew Text. And he would leave the Scriptures altogether upon uncertainties, that their Translation might not be liable to reprehension.  Phil. 
He refers to Chrysostom a Father of the Greek Church, who, he saith, reads it in the feminine.  Theoph. 
He doth so after his accustumed manner to deceive his Reader. For it is manifest the 
a Homil. 17. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Father reads it in the masculine, perhaps here also the Cardinal consulted some Latin Translation of Chrysostom which might serve his turn. He makes some other inconsiderable pleas to justify the vulgar reading, chief because of this modern reference unto Our Lady. Whereas some Fathers of the Latin Church being ignorant of the Hebrew and the Greek, follow the vulgar translation, and yet, as I can find, never reflected upon the Virgin Mary in that promise; only your new Doctors, who, many of them, have knowledge of the Tongues sufficient to discern the error of the translation, yet please themselves much therewith, and make their advantage of the error, to improve the honour of the Lady, and make her the prime subject of that grand Prophecy. By this way they may justify the petition of your Church's prayer to Her: 
b Tunos' ab hoste protege.  That She would defend ut from our ghostly Enemy. Because as Eve was overcome by him, so Mary should be victorious and bruise his head: and so the recompense should be made unto mankind, by the same Sex which had transgressed.  Phil. 
I still must mind you of leaving these excursions, and show wherein the Church of Rome offends in this point of the Invocation of Saints.  Theoph. 
I show you how she offends in owning the vulgar translation, and giving occasion unto those usual blasphemies concerning the Virgin Mary. However I will proceed and show how in her general Councils (as she esteem, them) in her Popes, in her Liturgies, she hath given great Offence and scandal unto the Israel of God. In that great Lateran Council begun anᵒ 1512, Julius the second being Pope, and ended 5 years after under Pope Leo the tenth consisting of 114 Bishops: we shall read in 
c Bin. Tom. 9 in Conc. Lateran.  Binius his Edition of the Councils the 9th tome, how in the opening of the several sessions of that Council, for the greater solemnity, Homilies were made by men of great fame and Learning among them. Caietanus gins the 2d session with his Oration or Sermon, and premiseth this address to the Virgin Mary. 
d Quoniam nihil est quod homo sine divino quxilio possit pollicori, ad gloriasam ipsant Vi●ginem Dei Matrem, primo convertam Orationem meam. A●t Maria.  Because man can promise to himself nothing without divine assistance, therefore in the first place I will address my prayer unto the glorious Virgin Mother of God. Hail Marry, etc. So Balthasar Del Rio, in the opening of the seventh session, gins his Sermon. 
a Vt non inprata audire atque audita exequi possitis, Deiparae Virg. Maria praesidium imploremus. Ave Maria, etc.  That ye may hear acceptable things spoken, and perform them, let us implore the protection of the Virgin Mary Mother of God. Hail Marry full of grace, etc.  Phil. 
These are instances of no direful consequence. In the Solemn performance of those holy exercises they implore the assistance of the Blessed Virgin; you may suppose, the assistance of her prayers.  Theoph. 
We in our Homilies and Sermons apply ourselves to the blessing of God's assistance; and you in the first place seek to the divine assistance of the Blessed Virgin. (for so Caietanus appears to call it) however you see it is the mode and form, even in the presence of so great Council, That the Invocation of the Blessed Virgin, should justle out all supplication to God in their Sermons: for otherwise they would not always have kept to this way. For so in the ninth session Antonius Puccius, a Bishop and Clerk of the Apostolical Chamber, having proposed great things to speak of. 
b Antequàm haec aggredior, per Angelicam salutat. beatiss. Virg. opem suppliciter implorabo. Ave Maria, etc.  Before I enter, saith he, upon these things I will humbly implore help from the most Blessed Virgin in the Angelical Salutation, Hail Marry, etc. But the last instance I will give in the tenth session is observable; the Homily was made by a Venerable Archbishop named Stephen, 70 years old; and having designed to insist upon considerable points out of the 48 Psalm, he prays in these words. 
c Ipsa Virgo beata, Angelorum. Domina, fens omnium gratiarum: quae omnes haereses interemit, cujus eperá magna Reform. Principum concord. & ve●t centra Infid. expeditie feri debet.  May the Blessed Virgin, Lady of Angels, the fountain of all graces, afford her help, who hath slain all heresies, and by whose assistance the great reformation in hand, the unity of Princes, the expedition against Infidels, must be carried on. And because this was not enough, the good old man improves his youthful Muse to compose an Ode unto the Virgin, to implore her assistance, as well in Meeter as in Prose. He goes on in this mode of supplication.  

Thou art the splendour, ornament, & Everlasting light of all Virgins, the Mother of the most high, the glory of Mankind, Blessed Mary.  
Thou alone o Virgin dost rule the Stars, Thou art the light of Heaven and Earth and the Sea, we beseech Thee to favour our attemts.  
That I may unlock the sacred senses which●ly hid in these severe writings, And Scale the high places of the Earth, Thou being our Captain.  
Omnium splendour, decus, & perenne,  
Virginum lumen, genetrix superni,  
Gloria humani generis Maria  
Unica nostri.  
Sola tu Virgo dominaris astris,  
Sola tu terrae Maris atque Coeli  
Lumen, inceptis faveas, rogamus,  
Inclyta nostris.  
Vt queam sacros reserare sensus  
Qui latent chartis nimiùm severis;  
Ingredi & celsae, duce Te benignâ,  
Moenia Terrae.   
You see the Authentic practice of your Church, before so solemn an Assembly. These Applications made to the Blessed Virgin in solemn forms of Prayer, and in such Terms, are inconsistent with the rules of Piety, and Religion.  Phil. 
You may let this pass upon the score of a Poetical Licence.  Theoph. 
In our Prayers we should be devout, and modest, not licentious and bold; but alas if you look back upon his supplication in Prose, you will find it more extravagant, his Luxuriant Fancy was not there confined to measures. But from these instances you may take the measures of their Licenc'd, and most authentic impiety. such Hymns made the best Melody, and were most acceptable unto your Fathers of the Church, and all her Children in the Antichristian times.  Phil. 
Your indiscreet Zeal transports you beyond the rule of Charity, which might instruct you to put a fair gloss upon some harsh Expressions.  Theoph. 
I dare not call evil good, neither have I learned the Art of your Doctors, to undertake the defence of great Impieties, and Blasphemies, and make them plausible by a distinction. The next general Council (as you reckon) was that of Trent: where we have the Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints established, and all those declared Impious who think otherwise. And although the Council penned the decree in most cautious terms, (being awakened with the exceptions of reformed Churches,) 
a Concil. Trid. sess. 25.  yet we may plainly there discover, That it is not their Prayers only which we must sue for, but also the help, and succour of the Saints in Heaven. It is good and profitable humbly to call upon them, and to fly to their Prayers, and aid, and help. If the council had intended only the Assistance of their Prayers, they would not have multiplied terms without cause in their decree. But in these words they have left open a Gap, for the Saints votaries to justify their Prayers to the Saints for their aid, and protection, to expect effectual favours from them, not only by their Prayers, but also by their Active powers. These things will easily fall under this clause of the Decree, Ad eorum orationes, opem, auxiliumque, confugere.  Phil. 
I have no reason to admit sinister constructions, any farther than the words will necessarily force me. Now the later terms may be Exegetical of the former, and well transposed thus, To fly to the aid and assistance of their Prayers. And then tell me what have you gotten by this decree.  Theoph. 
Your practice will best interpret your Rule. If the public prayers of your Church request more of the Saints in Heaven, than the assistance only of their Prayers, you may suppose your Church intended, and understood, and expressed more in her decree. You shall find your Church often to supplicate, That as well by the Merits, as by the Intercession of the Saints, God would be favourable unto them. In the Hymns above mentioned, to the Virgin Mary, she is called the Mother of Grace, and mercy, and Protection from our Ghostly Enemy is sought from her, and reception into Glory. So likewise in the hymn of the Apostles, Grace, and Virtue is desired of the Saints for such as languish in their Vices. And that by the command of the Apostles, as it is expressed, and not by their Prayers. And yet Bellarmin hath the confidence to interpret all these things, according to the sense of the Church, as he speaks, That all these things are expected from their Prayers, not from any other assistance. You shall find several Popes in the Names of Peter, and Paul, promising great things unto Princes, who shall engage in the defence, and cause of the Church, and threatening dreadful Judgements from them upon such as are disobedient. Pope Hadrian writing to the Emperor Constantine and Irene his Mother, Congratulates their embracing the Faith of Peter, and Paul, Princes of the Apostles, and promiseth, 
a Binius Teme 5. p. 554. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  They shall protect the Empire, make them Victorious, and bring the Barbarous Nations under their feet. On the contrary we find direful threats from these two Apostles. Pope Pius the 4th concludes his Bulls after this sort, 
b Nulli hominum liceat bane. &c vid. Concil. Trid. edit. per Joan. Gallema●t, ad finem.  Let none presume to infringe this our Declaration. If any shall attemt to do so, let him know he shall incur the wrath of God Almighty, and of his two blessed Apostles Peter, and Paul. These things are Obvious, and I will not heap Quotations to prove them, I will only give you an Account of one notable Letter to this effect, which I mentioned in the beginning of this Conference, and will now transcribe much of it for your sake, and the Readers, that ye may judge, what your Pope's opinion was of the power, and Parronage of the Apostles, and so by consequence of the other Saints. 
c Bin. Tom. 5. p. 55.  Pope Stephen the 3. being grievously streightened by Aystulphus King of Lombardy, who with a Potent Army besieged Rome; sends a Letter in the name of St Peter, unto Pippin, and his two sons, Charles, and Carloman Kings of France. It gins thus, 
d Petrus Apost. vecatus à Jesu Christo dei filio, etc.  Peter called to be an Apostle, by Jesus Christ the Son of God, etc. Grace, Peace, and Power, etc. To you most excellent men, Pipin, Charles, and Carloman 3 Kings, etc. After the salutation he proceeds. 
e Ego Petrus Apost. dietus a Christo etc.  I Peter an Apostle being called by Christ, and the good pleasure of the Divine Clemency, and ordained by his power to enlighten the whole world. 
f Quamobrem omnes, etc.  Therefore all Men who fulfil my Preaching, and command, must believe, That their sins by God's precept are forgiven in this World, and shall go into life Eternal without Blemish, etc. Therefore I Peter, &c, Who have Adopted you for my Sons, do exhort you to defend the City of Rome, and my Sepulchre, and Temple there, against the Incursion of my Enemies. 
g Pro certo confidite memet ipsum, etc.  And know ye for certain that I myself will be present with you, to assist you as though I were present and visible in the Flesh, for although I am absent in the Flesh, I am present in the Spirit. Now our Lady the Mother of God, the Thrones, and Dominions, and all the Host of Heaven, with the Martyrs, and confessors of Christ, with all obligations possible do adjure you, to assist my City, and People of Rome, with your utmost power, and speed. 
h Et ego Petrus in hac Vita. etc.  And I Peter by way of recompense, will become your Brother in this life, and in the day of God's strict Judgement, prepare Mansions for you in the glorious Kingdom of God, the reward of eternal recompense, and the Infinite joys of Paradise, Nay whatsoever Protections and assistance you will ask, I will give you. I therefore Conjure you by the most beloved living God, that ye permit not my City to be sacked by the Lombard's, lest your Souls and Bodies be likewise torn and tormented in everlasting Fire, with the Devil and all his Pestilent Angels. 
i Firmiss. tenete quod ego, etc.  Ye must firmly believe that heretofore when you Prayed unto me, I did help, and give you Victory over your Enemies, by the power of God, when you were few in number, in comparison of the Enemies of the Church. 
k Ecce chariss. fili, etc.  He concludes. Behold my dear sons, I have warned you, if you obey with speed, it shall be your great reward, and my suffrage shall help you in this life, ye shall overcome your Enemies, and live long, and eat good things, and afterwards ye shall inherit Eternal life But if ye make any delay: know ye that by the authority of the holy, and individual Trinity, and by the Apostolical grace given unto me, ye shall be alienated, for the transgression of this my Exhortation, from the Kingdom of God, and from life Eternal.  Phil. 
I have had the Patience to hear you, I pray let me now understand your design in these Instances.  Theoph. 
Your Popes are public Persons, and you would have them thought to be guided by an infallible Spirit; especially in their Bulls & Epistles and serious agitations, not to err. And you see what power they ascribe to the Saints departed, not only of Interceding, but Acting for us, and against our enemies. And partly from thence your Doctors have taken occasion to instruct the people to invoke them as Patrons, and Protectors, and Saviour's out of trouble. Now you have a rare art of Reduction, if you can bring all this under the single head of Intercession; that they effect these things only by their prayers to God, and not by a delegacy of his power to them.  Phil. 
It comes all to one, if by their prayers they obtain such power to save and to destroy.  Theoph. 
Take your suppositions for granted, and the case is clear. Mean while you put the poor ministering Angels out of Office, delegating their ministry and powers unto the Saints triumphant: and yet I cannot let pass without a just indignation and censure these forementioned Threats in the Pope's Bulls and Letters, That the indignation of our great God, and of his two Apostles Peter and Paul, should be threatened together, as though one were as much to be feared as the other: and so likewise for the conferring of blessing, and the return of thanks, they are directed to God and to the Saints. It is Bellarmin's close in every Tome, 
a Laus Deo & beatae Virgini.  Praise be given to God, and to the Blessed Virgin: and so all the Jesuits conclude. Nay, Gregory de Valentia puts the Virgin before our Saviour in the close of many of his Books, Laus Deo & beatae Virgini Mariae, & Domino Jesu Christo. Nay, we read how Pope Pius the fift ascribed that famous Victory over the Turks in the Battle of Lepanto to the Virgin Mary, and appointed a Solemn 
b Festum S. Mariae à Victoriâ, Octobr. 7.  Feast in memory thereof. We shall find likewise in 
c Epistolarum lib. 12. Epist. 22. Speramus in c●nip. Dei virt. & in beati Petri Apost. Principis adjutorio.  Gregory the Great, such expressions as these: We trust in the power of the most high God, and in the help of blessed Peter the Prince of the Apostles. Now the holy Fathers taught us another lesson, (as I have intimated partly before) not to join together almighty God and the Angels or any other Creature in our supplications or benedictions, or threats or confidences. 
d Oratione 4. contra Apr.  Great Athanasius proves the unity of God the Father and of Christ, because the Apostle hath joined them in one prayer. God himself and our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ direct our way unto you. 1. Thess. 3. 11. And he proceeds, No man must pray to receive any thing from the Father and from the Angels or any other Creature, 
e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  neither may any one say, God and the Angel give thee this. Upon this ground, as you have heard, he concluded in jacob's blessings upon the sons of Joseph, that the Angel stands for the Son of God, the Angel of his Counsel, as the Septuagint, read Is. 9 6. So 
a Thes. l. 3. c. 1.  Cyril of Alexandria, No man would endure to hear any one say, Would God and some Angel would direct your course to us, etc. But alas in your Church your ears are accustomed to such blasphemous conjunctions. Jesus Maria, is an usual oath among you, and God help you and the Blessed Virgin, you wish: if a beggar ask you Alms you say, God relieve and S. Peter. And so you have heard the imprecations of your Popes, The indignation of God Almighty and of Peter and Paul light upon you. Now, saith holy Athanasius, 
b Loco citat: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc.  It sufficeth these things should come from the Father alone, no Creature communicating. So ye make solemn vows unto God and some particular Saint in trouble, and after deliverance pay to the Saint your vows. Nay, Cardinal 
c In 2. secundae q. 88 Art. 5. Eâdem ratione votum sit D●o & Sanctis, nec obstat quod sit actus relig. quia ejusdem virtutis est vovere & ●rare.  Cajetan maintains, That a vow is made to God and to the Saint in the same manner, although a vow be a religious Act; for we may as well make vows to them, as prayers. And therefore notwithstanding all your qualifying distinctions, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, there appears little difference in the Invocation of God and of the Saints: especially when you come to the practice of this Doctrine. These Instances which we have already given are authority sufficient unto the undiscerning people, to ask all blessings from the Saints, and to hope from them to receive blessings as confidently as from Almighty God.  Phil. 
No, they are taught to expect blessings from God, for the sake and Intercession of the Saints.  Theoph. 
And they are taught and accustomed to ask blessings of the Saints without any such limitations, but in an absolute manner.  Phil. 
If the limitation be not expressed, it must be implied.  Theoph. 
It seems the ground of your people's error is expressed, when the Hymns and prayers of your Church ask grace and protection of the Saints, without the reserve, that they should procure them by their Intercession. But that which should undeceive them is suppressed, or (as you will have it) implied, that what they ask absolutely of the Saints, they must understand it only in reference to their prayers and Intercession. And so the ignorant people, who understand only the plain words of the petition, and not the sense of the Church (which is understood) are induced to hope in the Saints for their succours, and to fly to them in trouble as to their chief Sanctuary, and to return their thanks and their vows to them for their deliverance. 
d ●omm in lib. 8. Aug. de C●v. Dei. Multi Christiam divos divasque non aliter venerantur quam Deum, etc.  Ludovicus Vives complains that the common people highly offend in not discerning between the worship of God and of the Saints; nor doth their opinion, saith he, of the Saints want much of what the Heathen do believe of their Deities or Idols.  Phil. 
What value we Ludovicus Vives? come to the point. What are these prayers to the Saints, which you say our Church owns and prescribes, and are so offensive to your tender ears, and such a snare unto the people of God among us?  Theoph. 
Such as have the opportunity to search into your Breviaries and Missals have collected their gross absurdities: and your Doctors, as I can find, have not been solicitous to answer them. I shall give you some instances which I have taken out of one of your service books styled 
a Ordinarium secundum usum Sarum.  The Ordinary after the use of Sarum, printed at Paris by William Merlin. In the Office of the Virgin we have these passages, 
b Tuum nobis impende solatium, per te mereamur habere praemium, & cum electis Dei reenum.  Impart to us thy comfort, by thee may we deserve the reward, and the Kingdom of Heaven with the Elect. Again, 
c Tuo pio interventu, etc. ut per te redemti, sedem gloriae, etc.  By thy pious intervention wash away our sins, that being redeemed by thee we may climb the Seat of eternal glory. O holy Virgin thou alone hast slain the heresies of the World: 
d Accipe quod offerimus, redona quod rogamus, etc.  accept what we offer, give what we ask, and excuse what we fear. Then follows a Formal prayer or Collect: 
e O Regina Mundi, Scala Coeli, Thronus Dei, Janua Parad. etc.  O Queen of the world, the ladder of Heaven, the Throne of God, and Gate of Paradise, hear the prayers of the poor, and despise not the sighs of the miserable: Let our groans and our desires be brought by thee into the sight of our Redeemer; which by our misdeserving are cast out. 
f Deal peccata, relaxa facinera, erige lapsos, solve compeditoes.  Blot out our transgressions, release our sins, raise the fallen, and lose such as are bound: Let the branches of vices be cut off, and the flowers of virtue planted. 
g Placa precibus Judicem, quem puerp. genuisti Redemt. etc.  Appease the Judge by thy prayers, whom thou hast brought forth a Redeemer. That as by thee he was made partaker of the humane nature, so by thee he may make us partakers of the Divine Nature. One passage more near the close of the service I will produce. The Catholic Church celebrates the holy memory of Mary Mother of God, who stands in need for her salutary help without ceasing. 
h Quoniam reverend. quae Matri exhibetur Christo dofertur, ideo totis desideriis, etc. Vt Matrem sentiamus piissimam, et felium ejus Judicemisereniss.  And because the reverence towards the Mother redounds to Christ; therefore with all the desire of our heart we will insist on her praises; that the Mother may be favourable to us, and the Son a serene Judg.  Phil. 
You see most of these passages do proceed upon her prayers and intercession, that she would interpose for us and present our supplications and sighs unto our Redeemer.  Theoph. 
But you shut your eyes, and not observe these absolute petitions, which are put up to her: and where any reference is made to Christ, even there it much derogates from his mediation and intercession; because it represents Christ as a Judge by her prayers and mediation to be appeased, the blessed Virgin becoming our Intercessor unto Christ. And so by the stamp of public Authority, you see these extravagancies confirmed, which above you would not justify, as being the fancies, as you called them, of private persons. Now in confutation of such blasphemies the Holy Scriptures show Christ to be our Advocate until the day of judgement, not a juige: A merciful and faithful Highpriest in things pertaining to God, Hebr. 2. 17. Hebr. 4. 15. 16. For we have not High Priest, which cannot be touched with a feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin: Let us therefore come boldly, saith the Apostle, unto the Throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy. It is the design of Holy Scripture, to make poor sinners come with confidence and comfort to Christ and to the Father. It is the design of your Church to discourage them with a sense of their unworthiness, and to teach them to look upon Christ as a severe Judge, that so they may fly to the Virgin Mother, and to the Saints to be their Mediators and Intercessors. Nothing is more opposite to the Covenant of Grace, to the Love of God, towards such as are reconciled in Christ, to the tender compassion of our blessed Saviour, and to the gracious promises and Invitations of the Gospel. And upon this account I may pronounce your Doctrine of the Saints Invocation and Intercession, to be a damnable doctrine, destructive to the Souls of men.  Phil. 
Satis pro imperio. Doubtless you think yourself as infallible, as we the Pope; and you design to put Christ's Vicar besides the Chair, to place yourself therein, and magisterially declare against the doctrines of our Church.  Theoph. 
If our Declarations, like the Pope's many times, be against the Tenor of Holy Scriptures, regard them not; but if the word of God condems your practice, that which your Church teacheth in her public Offices; Woe unto them by whom offences come. I have followed your prescription, and have kept close to such instances as are approved among you by Councils, and Popes, and Missals of your Church; and when you cannot refute the objection, you scoff at the opponent. But because this Conference hath been spun out into a great length, I will favour you and myself with the omission of many things: and give you only one Instance more out of the same Ordinary and Missal, according to the use of the Church of Sarum. In the Office of S. Thomas the Martyr, as you call him, Archbishop of Canterbury, Chancellor of England. He was indeed a Martyr for the Pope, standing so highly for his Authority in the justification of Appeals to Rome, and not submitting the Clergy to the Laws of the Realm, that he betrayed his Native Country to a sorreign Jurisdiction, and became a rebel to the King and Kingdom. Hereupon he was banished divers years, and by the interest of his great Patron the Pope in neigboring Princes, he created great vexation & trouble unto his lawful Prince, King Henry the TWO After 7. years a reconciliation was made by the mediation of the Pope and other Princes between the King and him, and he returned into England, the King abiding in his Territories in France. Upon his return, by the Pope's Bull, he Excommunicates the Archbishop of York, and those other Bishops, who in his Banishment officiated in the Coronation of the King's son Henry, according to his Father's command; alleading that the privilege of Coronation of Kings of England, belonged to him as Archbishop of Canterbury. This and other insolences being soon related to King Henry in France, he spoke passionately against the proud Prelate; and immediately four Commanders in his Camp went over into England, entered the Bishop's palace, and purfued him into the Chapel, and there Inhumanly, and Sacrilegiously murdered him. 
a See Gulielmus Nubrigenses, his Hist. of England. l. 2. c. 16. p. 25. etc.  Hereupon by the Pope he was Canonised for a glorious Saint, and Martyr, and an 
b Baro. Martyr Rom. in 29. Decembris.  Annual feast was Instituted afterwards in memory of his Martyrdom, upon the 29th of December, a solemn office and service there is appointed for the day, as we find it in the missal; wherein the Account is given that the first Solemnity of his Translation was kept in the Cathedral of Canterbury, Henry the third being present, and the Pope's Legate Pandulphus; the Archbishop of Canterbury, all the Prelates, and Nobles, in the Year 1220, Fifty Years after his Passion, and that the Martyr Thomas of Becket honoured his Translation with many Miracles, 
c Caecis ad visum, surdis ad Audit. etc.  Restoring sight to the Blind, Hearing to the Deaf, Speech to the Dumb, and Life to the Dead. In the Office we have these Prayers. O Jesus Christ by the Merits of Thomas Forgive us our Trespasses. Again, 
d 'tis per Thomae sanguine. etc.  By the blood of Thomas shed upon thy score, make us to follow where he's gone before. Another Petition there is to the Martyr himself in that Office. ᵉ O Thomas give us help. Strengthen those that stand, raise them that fall, Correct our Manners, Actions, and Life, and guide us in the way of peace. In their Hymn for that day, they declare Wonders.  

All things obey, and veiled to Thomas,  
Plague, Diseases, Death, and Devils;  
Fire, Water, Earth, and Seas,  
Thomas hath filled the World with glory,  
The world to Thomas yields obeisance,  
Thomas shines with new Miracles,  
He restores the Members to the Gelt,  
He adorns the Blind with sight.  
Cleanseth the Lepers and their spots,  
And free's the dead from hands of death.   

Thomae cedunt & parent omna.  
Pests; morbi, mors, & daemonia,  
Ignis, Aer, Tellus & Maria,  
Thomas mundum replevit gloriâ,  
Thomae Mundus prestat Obsequia,  
Novis sulget Thomas Miraculis,  
Membr is donat Castratos masculis  
Ornat visu privatos oculis,  
Mundat Leprae conspersos maculis  
Solvis Mortis ligatos vinculis. 
Opem nobis O Thoma porridge. Rege stantes. etc.    
There is a farther account, how a Country Man going to visit the Martyr's Tomb, was just led into the River by a Wagon on the Bridge. And rising, and sinking five times, he was at last cast upon the Shore safe. For having called upon the Martyr for his aid, and that he would not suffer his 〈◊〉 Pilgrim to perish; a grave Bishop appeared, upholding and conducting him to land. This is the Legend of St Thomas of Becket, which your Church hath adopted into the Service and Office for the Feast. And I have been the more particular, that you may observe well the gross Fables and Absurdities therein, that your Church should impose such Stories of Miracles upon the credulous People: And is it possible you should be reduced to such a low esteem of the precious Blood of Christ, that you must Petition our Blessed Saviour to bring you to Heaven by the Blood of his Martyr Thomas? And for a Conclusion, I pray seriously consider this pretended Martyr: He died in the defence of the Pope's Usurpations among us, and the Pope hath requited him with a Saintship; whereas he had great success to go to Heaven so immediately; with such Qualifications of a turbulent and haughty Spirit. And this ushers in another grievance and just Exception we take against your Invocation of Saints, because you pray to some Saints of whom you have no assurance that they are in Heaven; nay, of whom you cannot prove that ever they were in being: what think you of the Beggar's Saint, St Lazarus? 
a Part. 3. Tom. 4. Tract. 2.  Salmeron assures us, That he is every where esteemed a Saint, and Protector of the poor; Canonised by the Church, 
b Baronius Tom. 1. Anno 33. N. 44. Multis locis in memoriam Lazari, etc.  worshipped with Altars and, Images, and Prayers made unto him. And I have read an Argument, some of your Doctors have urged, to prove it an History of Dives and Lazarus in the Gospel, and not a Parable, because Lazarus is a Canonised Saint, and therefore doubtless such a Person there was, of whom our Saviour in the Gospel gives an Historical account. But I have showed above, from the judgement of divers Fathers, that it is a Parable: Theophilact calls him fool who thinks otherwise, and that by Dives and Lazarus only were represented the Rich and Poor, by a Fiction of Persons suited to a Parable: and so your Jesuit Maldonate affirms. Now for your Church to make a real Saint of this Parabolical Representation, to whom you make your Addresses in Prayer, something resembles your other kind of Devotion, Praying unto, or worshipping the Image instead of the Saint. Your Church might as well have made the Prodigal Son returning, a Saint. So for St George, you cannot make any Historical Demonstration, that such a Holy Person and Martyr there was. George of Cap●adox was a fierce Arrian, mightily opposing Athanasius, but he was slain for being a Christian b 〈…〉 an heathen Prince; and so by his Heretical Faction esteemed a Martyr, whom they represented for a great Champion and Captain under Christ, fight against the great Magician of Alexandria, as they impiously styled Holy Athanasius; otherwise, we rather account Saint George, as he is constantly represented in his Image, flaying a Dragon in rescue of a Virgin, to be an Emblem of our Blessed Saviour, overcoming the Red Dragon, our great Enemy the Devil, and rescuing his Church as a chaste Virgin from his temtations and force. 
a Martyrol Rom. Apr. 23. Symboli potius quam Historiae alicujus, etc.  Baronius acknowledgeth the Picture of St George on Horseback, armed cap-a-pe, and flaying a Dragon, to be a Symbolical Image rather than a true History. And that Jacobus de Voragine, He that made the Golden Legend, made it an History. An Emblem, saith 
b Hyperius de 〈◊〉 Stud. Theol. l. 3. c. 7.  Hyperius of Christian Magistrates, Who defend the Church of Christ as a pure Virgin from the snare of the Devil, and his accursed Instruments: interposing their power against the pernicious attemts of Heretics: and so by the Blessing of God, St George shall be the Emblem of our most Noble Order of the Garter, even unto the end of the World. What shall I say of the Giant St Christopher, from the Etymology of whose name, you have derived a Fable, That being of a vast height, at least 12 Cubits in length, he carried our Blessed Saviour over a deep and dangerous River; guiding himself by a Staff like a Weavers beam. 
c Hyperius citate.  Villavincent us makes him an Emblem of a Preacher of the Gospel, who holding forth Christ in his word visible unto the People, is encompassed with Waves, and Tempests, and Waters of Affliction and Persecution, but supports himself, and wades thro' with the staff of his Christian hope, the expectation of the exceeding recompense of reward. After this sort, to fill up your Calendar of Saints, your Doctors might do well to go down into Egypt, and bring their ancient Hieroglyphics to be Canonised and Worshipped.  Phil. 
You may do better to forbore scossing, and study the Defence which our Doctors make against all the Exceptions your side have produced concerning these and other Saints.  Theoph. 
I have searched, and find them so impertinent, that I lost my labour, and shall not (until I be urged farther to it) trouble you and the Reader with the discovery.  Phil. 
I thank you for sparing yourself and your Friend together, for I begin to be weary of this Discourse, which hath been drawn out beyond expectation, and methinks, gives but little satisfaction.  Theoph. 
My serious endeavours to open your Eyes unto a discovery of the Errors of your Church, are abundantly satisfactory unto my Conscience, although the success should fail, and you still stop your Ears against the voice of the Charmer. And yet I must trespass upon your patience in one more consideration, touching the Canonising of Saints: If an Error should be committed therein, it would be diffusive, and spread all over your Church. Prayers may be made as to a Saint in Heaven, whilst the Person himself who is invoked is miserably tormented in Hell; excluded by a more infullible Judgement from the Beatifical Vision for ever. For instance: Suppose Almighty God hath not approved the Contentions of Thomas of Becket with his Prince, but hath passed against him the Sentence of Damnation for resisting the Powers, whilist the Pope hath Sainted him: What will become of all his Pilgrims and Votaries? how many Prayers would be made in vain, to the shame and mockery of Religion? Although in truth all your Prayers, even unto the undubitable Saints in Heaven, upon the supposition that they hear you not, are altogether in vain; and so the greatest part of your Religion is vain, and a sad account you must give of your Lip-labor and Will-worship. I pray seriously study an Answer to that severe Question: Who hath required these things at your bands?  Phil. 
We are not solicitous to answer that Question, because we proceed upon a better Supposition, That the Saints do know our State and Condition, and hear our Prayers to them, and do make Intercession for us. But in answer to your conceit, of an Error that may be in the act of Canonising. Eellarmin shows, how that solemn Act appertains to the Pope, who proceeds therein with great Deliberation, and mature Judgement, upon all Relations and Circumstances; and ordinarily without the ample Testimony of Miracles effected by him a Saint is not Canonised, and so there is no fear of Mistake and Error: and withal, great preparation is made unto that solemn Act, by public Prayer and Fasting; and it is not credible God should be wanting to his Church so well disposed in her Devotions in a matter of so great concern.  Theoph. 
If they are Credibilities, however they are not Certainties, and so your Prayers to many Saints must be without the assurance of Faith that they are such. We may certainly call upon God th●● the Meditation of Christ, and have our Prayers heard, and Supplications granted; but you can have no such assurance of your Martyr St Thomas. 
a Bell. ibid. c. 7. Inebrietate occisum pro Martyre Venerantes.  Bellarmine acknowledgeth, Time was, when the People of a City worshipped one for a Saint, after his death; of whom holy Martin, who lived among them, was suspicious, and earnestly prayed to God to discover to him the condition of the person deceased: and behold, his Soul appeared and informed St. Martin, That he had been a Thief and a Robber, and was justly executed as a Malefactor, and now tormented in Hell: And so, saith he, Pope Innocent the third reprehends some who honoured one for a Martyr, that was slain when he was druak. And I will give you one Instance more to this purpose out of our English Histories: ᵇ We read how one William a Londoner, a factious and turbulent Person, of a smooth and volutile Tongue, sets up himself to be a King and Saviour of the poor People from the Oppression of the Nobles, in the absence of King Richard: and so gathers a multitude of Seditious Persons, and became a Preacher and a Captain among them: but the tumult being soon suppressed by the Wisdom of the King's Council, and William, with other of his Accomplices, being Executed; a Priest, that 
Gulielmus Neubrigens. lib. 5. c. 18.  was his Kinsman, takes the Chain wherewith he was bound, and pretends to work Miracles, and divers cures thereby. The unwary People entertain the Delusion, and cut the Gibbet whereupon he suffered in pieces, keeping them as Sacred Relics; and also the Earth which was sprinkled with his blood. They honour him for a Saint, and make their Prayers to him, with great pretensions of success; until time, and the Magistrates care and wisdom did undeceive them.  Phil. 
To prevent such horrible mistakes, two Popes, Alexander the third, and Innocent the third, absolutely forbidden any Saint to be worshipped, and Invocated, without the approbation of the Bishop of Rome: whereas before, as Bellarmin showeth, any Bishop might Canonize a Saint within his own Diocese.  Theoph. 
Now it is reduced unto the Pope: what assurance have you of his infallible Judgement? For it is observed, he hath proceeded much by favour and affection in this Affair, gratifying Princes in their Requests for their Relations and Countrymen. And it hath been said, That if Henry the 7th had not been too renacious and sparing of his Treasure, when he made his Request, that Henry the 6th might be Canonised for a Saint, he had not failed of his desire.  Phil. 
We know, the lying Tongue of Calumny and Slander hath been always sharpened against his Holiness: but God will not be wanting to his Church in matters of such moment and concern, and therefore we do not trouble our Consciences with your Scruples.  Theoph. 
The Infallibility of the Pope in his Determinations, è Cathedra, which you most unreasonably maintain, and whereupon you lay the Foundation of your new-coined Articles of Faith, may fall into consideration (if God permit) hereafter; meanwhile, the Objection turns not altogether upon that hinge: for although the Pope were infallible in his Canonization, that is, for a general Reception and Veneration; no Saint without the Pope's allowance must be publicly and generally called upon in Prayer: Yet Bellarmin grants the Invocation of other Saints by private Persons, and saith, It is the common Opinion of the Doctors. Now I pray observe the Inconveniencies from hence: A Wife who hath lost a dear Husband, or Children their Parents, they usually follow them with passionate Affection, and prise them higher, being bereft of them, than when they had the happiness of their Society. Now as other civil commerce is intercepted by death, if communion with them by Invocation and Prayer may be allowed, what will be the excess of their Superstitious Devotion in this case. Affection and Charity, will conclude their Friends deceased are undoubted Saints in Heaven, and their Piety will always promt them to call upon them for assistance and protection, as being most assured of their readiness to help them, even to the uttermost. And so when Men and Women should be instant in Prayer to God Almighty, the stream of their Devotion will be carried on towards their Relations who are gone to God before them: and so the highest act of Religion, Prayer, with all its Pervors and Devotion, will evaporate in emty Supplications made to those, of whose happiness Men have no assurance, but from their fond and fallible Estimations: and so between the Invocation of Saints that are, and of others supposed to be in Heaven, the God of Heaven is almost forgotten in your Prayers, according to that proverbial Speech grounded upon your intolerable Excesses in this Point, 
a Non cognoscitur Deus inter Sanctos.  God is not known among the Saints. You have heard, how in the Virgin's Psalter ascribed to Bonaventure, the Names of God and Lord are expunged, and in their place the name of our Lady is inserted. In the Virgin's Rosary, after ten Ave Maries, or Angelical Salurations, 
b Ave Maria grarid plenae, etc.  Hail Marry, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: Blessed art thou among Women: and Blessed is Jesus the Fruit of thy Womb. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now, and in the hour of our death. Amen. I say, after ten Ave Maries, follows one Pater noster, or the Lord's Prayer: and fifty Ave Maries, and five Pater nosters, make a Rosary; so called, because it is interwoven with Prayers and Salutations, Pater nosters and Ave Maries, as a Garland with Flowers. Now out of great Devotion some will triple the Rosary, and so make 150 Salutations, which they called the Lady's Psalter, until Bonaventure was so bold, out of David's Psalter to compose another. and many Fraternities and Companies were erected in several Chaunteries to celebrate and rehearse those triple Rosaries, saying 150 Ave Maries, and 15 Pater Nosters in one Service; and so they became highly guilty of the Heathenish Battology, which our Blessed Saviour forbade, Matth. 6. And to make this great Devotion general and public, Pope Gregory the 13th appoints a Solemn 
c Festum Rosari Beatae Virg. Sub 2. majori officio ab omnibus, etc.  Feast of the Rosary of the blessed Virgin, to be celebrated by all in general, and by every single person, with the double greater Office and Solemnity. You see the grand Superstition of this Office, and the proportion ten to one, between their rehearsing the Lords Prayer, and the Angel's Salutation, or the Ave Mary. So are likewise your Litanies now stuffed with the Names of all the Saints you can imagine to be in Heaven, and with the Orders of Angels, and the Name of God and of Christ hath scarce any room among them: whereas we read the ancient Litanies were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Lord have mercy upon us, Christ have mercy upon us, Lord have mercy upon us. The People of God in great Extremities of Earthquakes, and Tempests, and Plagues, and calling earnestly upon God in these Forms: until in the fifth Century was added the Trisagion, Holy is the Lord, holy is the strong, holy is the 
d Sanctus Deus, Sanctus Fortis, Sanctus Immortalis.  Immortal: 
e Bin. Tom. 3. Episi. 3. Felitis Papae ad Petrum, Fullonem, p. 801.  which Form, (whilst the Church of God in Constantinople, upon a great Earthquake, running forth into the field, called upon God for mercy) was taught them from Heaven by a young Child, who was carried up out of their sight (the Patriarch Proclus, of Constantinople, and all the People being Eye-witnesses) and after an hour, was let down into the midst of them, and declared, That he had heard the Angels sing that Hymn, and that he was commanded to bring it down to them.  Phil. 
If all be Gospel that you say, it sufficeth, there needs no more Additions.  Theoph. 
Those things are well known, and may be easily confirmed by Testimonies: But I am willing to give you respite, and not multiply Arguments and Testimonies, seeing you have acknowledged what hath been said to be sufficient (as I suppose) to prove what I first designed, The Error of your Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints, and the great Superstition and Idolatry in the practice. And now, good Sir, give me your hand in assurance, that you will pardon my Incivility, to hold you so long in an unacceptable Discourse abroad, mean while, forgetting that respect and entertainment which is due to a worthy Friend, who hath most courteously given me a Visit. Will you please therefore to walk in and recreate yourself with other Divertisements, and better Company; and with such slender Provisions as we can make at present. I hope you will be so kind to stay longer with us, and give the Opportunity to make amends.  
FINIS.