A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY; BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physician AND AN English PAPIST: WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed.  
With Reference (only) to the Government of ENGLAND in Church and State.  
In some Answer to Peter Walsh, and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor.  Papa stupor Mundi, non Deus, non Homo, sed utrumque. Gloss. in proem. Clem. Moscan. de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11. 
LONDON, Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Paul's. M DC LXXV.   

THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER.  
THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time, when (by Proclamation) Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of London; and 'tis not yet out of Season, nor will be, till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated; after which it cannot be long ere they be ended: I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State, their Laws, Doctrines or Discipline; therefore while they have been exercising us with Disputes about those things, they had two Ends, (viz.) Either to lead us into some Precipice, or to Lapwing us from the proper tendency of our Inquiries, which in truth is our home Concerns, and so a Controversy only between English Papists and English Catholics (called Protestants for Distinction) with reference to their Prince, who governeth by Laws divers from all the Nations of the World, and so is not to be argued out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms: But as a Person of Honour hath lately begun, so this Author has set forward the proper Contest (still meaning) between English Papists and English Protestants, the latter of whom affirm as follows.  
1. That the King of England is Emperor and sole Monarch of England, and established by a Law divers from all other Nations.  
2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See, from which lies no Appeal to any other Patriarch.  
3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions (with reference to this life and the ends of Government) are rightfully derived from the King of England, being naturally in him as a mixed Person, and Custos utriusque tabulae, according to Rom. 13.  
4. That he is a Traitor that denies this, or affirms any foreign Prince, Prelate or Potentate, to have any Jurisdiction in England, etc. or diminishes the King's Legal Style.  
5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State, as to Jurisdictions, until Christian Monarches divided Jurisdictions, and delegated Civil and Ecclesiastical Persons to take Conusance, and judge of Causes separate, and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesiastical in respect of the Delegates only, and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge.  
6. The King hath power (naturally) within his Dominions (by such his delegates respectively) to declare what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise, and to make and interpret Laws for the Government of Church and State, to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline, not against the word of God, to add to such Laws, Sanctions, to punish Offenders against such Laws.  
7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him, as Essential Flowers of his Crown, as ancient as the Crown itself, in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Government by Original Constitutions, as the King cannot (by any rightful Act he can do) grant them away to any Foreign Power, Person, or Potentate, or to others but by way of delegation, as to the declarative and executive Part.  
8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope, has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land, and so was utterly void, and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England, etc.  
9 That all Papists, denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here, both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters, yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship, against our established Laws, are grievous Offenders.  
10. That passive Obedience, is no Obedience: In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous, entire, active, and with respect to the Law of Nature (antecedent to the King's Command) which enjoins entire Obedience to the King's lawful Command, for the Lords sake, not barely for the Command sake.  
11. That the King cannot dispense with, or free the Subject from such natural Obedience, but only from the penalty added by, and annexed to, his Command.  
12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship, the same being superstitious and idolatrous, and against the Established Laws.  
13. That no English man whatsoever (how far so ever they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope) can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them, unless they swear due Allegiance to the King, and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church, and by that Oath renounce all the Pope's Authority whatsoever over them, and his Power to dispense with that Oath, and that they will be obedient to all the King's Laws.  
14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome ●xcommunicated or censured by tha● Church, and yet holding Communion with that Church, i● not to be trusted here, although he takes the Oaths above mentioned▪ In as much as he is of no Church, being wilfully divided from ours, and by Censure divided from the other, and so disobedient to all Governors, a lawless and perjured Person, and so in a present State of Damnation, nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here, though he takes the said Oaths, in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced.  
15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent, or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgement and Reason: But purely by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Elizabeth's time (for before that they joined with us and were called Church Papists) and at the same time they (in opposition to our King's Laws) do so firmly yield to that Inhibition, and disobey several other Commands of the Pope, even in some matters of Faith; It's referred to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates, whether such co 〈…〉 ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated, or even con●iv'd at here.  
16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incorporated together, that if Communion with that Church be admitted or tolerated, here it must▪ necessarily be introductory of that Courts Usurpation.  
17. That there are now great differences of opinion among the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope: And if they were all of the mind with the most moderate Pretenders, yet what Security can be given, that they will always be so, or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgement, or is it possible, that the Pope will grant Orders to such, as he now censures, as these are, so that an Admittance of these few straggling Pretenders to favour, as it is against Religion to tolerate Persons in their present desperate State, so it is certainly against all Christian Prudence and Policy of State to allow the unaccountable pretences, to accept the faithless Engagements, or to credit the unintelligible Faith of those Papistical Nothings.  
These things our Author points at in this Discourse, all which (if opposed or doubted of) will be more at large maintained, and the matters of Fact therein cleared by another manner of Testimony, then that of bringing the Virgin Mary's Chapel from Nazareth to Dalmatia, and from thence to Loretto; nay, let any one of the five hundred Native Priests, that Peter Walsh says lately were in England, undertake any one Link of this Chain, which conduces to the End of the Controversy, and the whole Cause shall depend on the success: So that this. Book serves to state the Controversy aright, and in some measure to confirm the reformed Catholics, to convince the Heteroclite Adversaries and to justify our Kings necessary Cautions against the Invaders of his loyal and established Authority.   

A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY, etc.  PAPIST, 
Well overtaken Sir, how far travail you this way?  Physician, 
Truly Sir, I cannot well tell; I know the place I am going to, but know not how far 'tis thither.  Pap. 
Perhaps then two such Travellers have seldom met, for I know how far I am to travail, but know not the place I go to.  Phy. 
Methinks Sir, you undertake an odd Journey. Pray what occasions it, and the uncertainty thereof.  Pap. 
Sir, have you not heard of Ogilbies' Wheel, that has run over all the great Roads in England?  Phy. 
Yes, that was to ascertain the Miles for Travellers, and is to be inserted into his Britannia, being one part of his Atlas now coming forth, a very laborious and useful Work.  Pap. 
Whether the design was to advantage Travellers or the Post-Office, I'll not determine, but sure I am it's become prejudicial to me; for here is the Case, I am obliged to go ten miles from London, and so thought to have gone to Rumford: But it seems by that Wheel, Rumford is made 12 miles off from London, and then if I stay 2 miles short, what know I where I shall lodge:  Phy. 
I believe Sir, your head is full of Proclamations, and that troubles you more than the Wheel.  Pap. 
I can bear the Proclamation patiently, and be obedient to the Kings Command as well as any Subject he has.  Phy. 
Say you so? were I in your Case I should choose to go to Rumford, and not take up at Cold lodging, for while you are commanded to go ten Miles from London, you may go as far as you please beyond it.  Pap. 
If I had not been commanded to go ten miles, I would not have gone it, and being commanded to go so far, I am not such a fool as to go further, for something that I know.  Phy. 
What think you then of what is said, If any one compels you to go with him a Mile, go with him twain.  Pap. 
Would you think it reasonable, if one going five Miles for a Physician, that another should compel him to go ten Miles another way.  Phy. 
No, but it's meant if any by the power of the Magistrate compels you to go a Mile, show your Obedience to the Magistrates Command in doing more rather than less, or not at all, for so the word in the Original for Compel signifies, and you may see a Sermon on that Text. 13. Rom.  Pap. 
Well Sir, make what Interpretation of it you please, I know who can do it better, and I have a surer Guide to trust to, that cannot Err.  Phy. 
I think I understand you Sir, and what persuasion you are of.  Pap. 
Pray then, Sir, let me understand who you are, and what occasions your Journey.  Phy. 
Why, I am a Protestant Physician, going to visit a patiented some Miles onward to Rumford.  Pap. 
Methinks then, Sir, you should make more haste; strange! how lazy and indifferent are Physicians grown in the great Concernment of men's Lives: And all this Evil is occasioned by the Reformation, as it's called, which might better have been in Physic then Religion.  Phy. 
As for the Reformation in Religion, I see not how it affects the Practice of Physic; but for my not making more haste to my Patient you must know First, That too violent Motions may irritate the pungent and saline particles hid in the Nervous Juice, and cause a Fermentation in the Serum of the blood, which preying on the vital Spirits will conclude in a malignant and putrid fever: But by a Sedate Managery of the parts, the morbific matter remains undisturbed, until it may be exterminated by proper Evacuations (viz.) Emetics, Diuretics, Sudorificks, or ordinary Purgations. Secondly, The Distemper my Patiented labours under appears by the Symptoms, indicated by the Vein, to be a Chronic Distemper, and become Cathectical, and so not to be accosted by Acute Medicines, and cured of a sudden. Thirdly and lastly, a Physician, who makes too much haste after a Patient's Summons, gives thereby the Patiented occasion to think that the Physician has but few to look after, but small Practice, so will have but mean thoughts of him, and hinder the operation of the Physic, whereas confidence in the Physician does half the Cure, and (which is worst of all) a small Fee will be thought sufficient for him: And I see no reason, why I should not put a value on my Medicine, as well as you on your Mass: But, Sir, I pray why are you so penurious of your Obedience to the King's Commands, that you will go but just ten miles, though to your Detriment.  Pap. 
Why Sir, I'll tell you, the King shall see, that I will obey him exactly, though to my own prejudice, and my opinion is, that whosoever of the Roman Catholic Religion, that live under the King's protection, should prefer the peace of the State before his own Advantages, and so I have learned from wise men of this Nation.  Phy. 
Well Sir, omitting that this Minute Testimony of your Obedience conduces nothing to the peace of the State, in as much as the going above ten Miles is no breach of the King's Command, tell me, I pray, why you did not mention the peace of the Church, as well as of the State which you prefer to your own Advantages?  Pap. 
I must declare to you, I am a Catholic of the Church of Rome, and not of the Court of Rome, mind that, for this distinction has much in it, and I owe as much Allegiance to the King as any Protestant of you all, and am ready to take up Arms to defend his Royal person, as many Catholics did in the late Wars.  Phy. 
I am satisfied, that many Catholics were in the late King's Army, and did Service there; but I always was satisfied also, that it was for their own sakes principally, and for the King's sake only; inasmuch as they hoped for more Indulgence from a merciful Prince, then from a Herd of men, who could not be content to shave their Father's beards, but must cut their throats: Yet Sir, I am satisfied. It's true, that you (as you say) Own great Allegiance to the King, but I never could be satisfied, that ye paid so much, nor no more than utmost necessity compelled from you, and I am now in greater dissatisfaction, by the story of the ten Miles, and no more.  Pap. 
You may still Sir, rest under the same dissatisfaction, and must so do, until you understand throughly the Distinction I before mentioned.  Phy. 
As for your distinction of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papist, what ever was intended by the Inventor of the Knack, I take it to be a 〈◊〉 Notion set up to stifle due Reflections on old Errors, for most certainly an English Papist, as Papist, abstracted from doctrinal opinions, is a Traitor to the King of England.  Pap. 
Hold Sir, you intent not to quarrel me on the road sure, and begin with such rude Language.  Phy. 
Pray, why may not I call an English Papist Traitor, as well as you call an English Protestant Heretic the crimes are both Capital.  Pap. 
If you understood any Distinction you would answer yourself.  Phy. 
You cry Distinction, Distinction, Court of Rome, Church of Rome; but what is all that to the Church of England: I suppose the Author of that so much magnified Distinction might mean, tha● by n●● being of the Court of Rome he may hold, That the Pope ha● not right to any temporal Jurisdiction in our King's dominions, but that our King is absolute Monarch there, that's something indeed and diversifies him from a de fide man and Jesuit, who hold the contrary: But yet he by being of the Church of Rome, must hold that the Pope has right to some spiritual jurisdiction within our King's Dominions, which to affirm is to take away part of his Imperial Crown, and as 'tis against all truth, so by the Laws of this Realm is Treason; besides while he holds the Pope Head of the Church, and so infallible, he obeys him well, who believes not what he says: For while the Church of Rome Papist says our King is lawful King of England, Scotland and Ireland, he gives the Lie to his Infallible Holiness, who has continued the old Interdiction of these Kingdoms, the Excommunication of our Kings, and has declared our King to have no right to his Kingdoms: And therefore in anno 1662. as well from Cardinal Barberin, as from the Pope's Nuncio at Brussel, a severe Reprimand was sent to the Irish Nobility, who had subscribed a Remonstrance, testifying their Allegiance to our present King, the Pope declaring it as an Injury to the Faith, and a denying of his Supremacy: And in anno 1648. when the Papists to prevent banishment declared, That the Pope cannot absolve them from their Obedience, That he cannot depose any Heretical (as 'tis called) Magistrates, that he cannot dispense with Oaths made with (such) Heretics: This was at Rome condemned as Heretical, the Parties summoned to appear at Rome, and Censures and Prisons prepared for them; and in the same Case is your Man of Distinction with the Irish Papists, for subscribing their formulary to that purpose: so that I see nothing from your distinction to arise, but a Monster of Aequivocal generation, an Hermaphrodite in Religion, part Romish, part English Catholic, whose seminal Virtues are to exert themselves, as either powers prevail.  Pap. 
I verily believe, that the Catholics of the Church of Rome are good Christians, and true Roman Catholics, though they are not of the Court of Rome, and they endeavour to reform that Church, and distinguish it from that Court.  Phy. 
You say well distinguish, for it may be distinguished in Notion, but can never be separated in Deed; the Court and the Church of Rome being so interwoven, and although some few Stragglers thus distinguish, yet in reality all our Contests concern the Court of Rome, in that all the interest of that Church is dependent on that Court, and they are incorporated together, so that if we should ever join in Communion with that Church, we must in a little time submit to the Usurpation of that Court. Jurisdiction of Church and State, being in the same hands cannot be severed; unless some Sir Solomon among you can divide Pope, Cardinal, Prelate, as great Solomon would have done the Child, which the two Mothers claimed? And as to your irregular and feeble Endeavours to reform that Church: Pray, by what Authority do your true English-Roman Catholics endeavour to reform the Roman Catholic Church? For your Confessors tell you at the first Principle, that ye must believe as the Church believes; yet they themselves believe not so, but would reform that Church in its Articles of Faith.  Pap. 
Sir, they know well enough what they have to do, and we believe them, who have good Authority to instruct us in our belief.  Phy. 
You have said all that is permitted to silly misled Ignaro's to say: But have a care and inquire after such Reformers, who in single private Capacities unauthoritatively undertake Reformation of Churches: At one time undertaking the Reformation of the Romish and British Churches: Our Church was reform by due Authority according to the most ancient Laws of this Realm; It having all the Rights of a Patriarchal See: But can a few Renegado-dandi-prat Papists think to unhinge a Church or State under a pretence of Reformation: These Reformers of yours, I fear prompted our late Pretenders to Reformation, who first would reform the Court, than the established Church, by Presbytery, than Presbytery by Independent, than Independency by Subdivisions of Atomical Sects, till with Quaker and Millenaries Government was reform quite out of doors; such Reformers (as is said) are like the Hobbling Erastian, and run like Badgers with variating and unequal Motions, and if they can keep where the ridge of secular Power goes highest, their Reformation turns into Rebellion, and Papist Reformers are as various and divers from their Church of Rome, ay, and from themselves.  Pap. 
You mistake us much, for the Reformers, I mean, go not about to reform the whole Church, or to unhing it; but to reform in their private Practices and Judgements and teach us so.  Phy. 
They are good Members of that Church in the mean time, that are wiser than their whole Church, not only to differ from their Church in their private Practices and Judgements, but to teach all others to do so too: Right Roman Catholics, I'll warrant them.  Pap. 
What, pray, do you think of Father Paul, who wrote the Council of Trent so disadvantagiously to the Romish Interest, and yet he died a steady Catholic of the Church of Rome.  Phy. 
I'll tell you what I think of him, I think first, That he was no English man, and so nothing to our purpose, for I have nothing to say against Foreigners, let them use what Religion their Superiors there enjoin them: But against English men, who, in opposition to the Religion of State, distinct from that of Faith, which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power, such as your Church of Rome Papist is, for aught I can yet see: If your Father Paul was such, I think him either a fool or a Knave, for if St. Peter's Successor did behave himself well in that Council, your Paul was a Knave to traduce him, if contrary, he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide; yet were he a Subject of Rome, he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince, and yet was religious to die a steady Catholic of that Church, while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peter's Chair.  Pap. 
Well, Sir, say what you will, I say, I am a true Roman Catholic as to the other World, and a true English man as to this.  Phy. 
Sir, you offered a Distinction lately with a witness (viz.) Father Paul, and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore, and as to this I say; it's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man: for it looks two ways, for if Chequer Papist, party per pale, half true Papist, half true English will not do, than it is to be interpreted, True English man for life, and after true Roman Catholic, and so it has something of Policy, but more of Romish Guile: In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation, here during life, and after in the other world; True Roman Catholic goes for it to St. Peter, God a mercy good Distinguisher; he dares as well be hanged as tell the Pope this, how he cheats the Pope all his life, and cheats the King at his death; this Distinction dares not appear at Rome, no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh, Mr. White, or Mr. Serjeant, who non-conform from the Church of Rome, more than our Independent from the Church of England.  Pap. 
But Sir, if the Distinguisher (as you call him) explains himself, and says he owes Allegiance to the King actively, as to Matters of State, and passively as to Matters of Church, and so differs from your Church in pure Judgement only, and no more than Presbyterian or Independents there, who are good Subjects, nevertheless own Allegiance, and claim protection, etc. what say you then, & c?  Phy. 
First I say, that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperors divided them, and causes were all derived from the same Fountain, the King, but as some were put into the hands of ecclesiastics, and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual, so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil, thence arose the two Jurisdictions, which are naturally one, as in our King, and by Delegation only made two.— But I further say, if you be in earnest, it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons, and I mean by earnest, real, for sad Experience has showed, that it is not the first time by thousands, that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us: Yet not in earnest or real as such, but in Masquerade, and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience: I say further, It's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance, for such Notional Obedience is indeed none: True Obedience ought to be entire, and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate, for the Lords sake, who enjoins to obey, not barely for the Commands-sake, which enjoins to do: And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship: But, Sir, I would willingly be resolved, whether the Romish Church▪ Catholic dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgement, or by reason of some Command from the Pope? next, whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters: Inasmuch as the former, whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters, and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture, yet he takes it not from our Prince, and lodges it in a foreign Prince, or Prelate, which last makes it Treason: Let this be answered, and I'll promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail, as at present gives occasion of our Discourse.  Pap. 
Pray, Sir, is there any harm, if I prefer the Pope to the Archbishop of Canterbury?  Phy. 
None at all, as the former is a Temporal Prince, and the latter but a Subject, nay more, the Archbishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Archbishop of Canterbury, at a general Council, when it happens, but not in England unless by Courtesy: And if you prefer the Pope before the Archbishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our King's Dominions, you are unmannerly to the Archbishop, who is Apostolic and Patriarch here, as Pope Vrban the second allowed, and you are a Traitor to the King, by, and under whose undoubted, inherent Right and Authority the Archbishop is Primate in this Patriarchate.  Pap. 
But do you think in your Conscience, that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England?  Phy. 
Ay, I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our King's Dominions.  Pap. 
Pray, what Grounds have you for it?  Phy. 
The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records, continued in Succession for many hundred years, which are to be seen in the Tower, and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke, and cited in the Report of a Law Case, called Cawdries Case, and in Mr. Prins Collections, whereby it plainly appears that in all ages, wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England, and offered to put the same in Execution, it was always opposed by Parliaments and Councils, as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown.  Pap. 
But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies?  Phy. 
Sir, as to the matter of Certainty, I shall not use the notions so much contended about, viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty, so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of, there being three absolute Certainties, by which we come to the knowledge of things. 1. A sensible Certainty. 2. A Mathematical Certainty. 3. An Historical Certainty, and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute. The Certainty of Sense makes me absolutely Certain of what I see, hear, etc. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain, that one and one makes two, and three and three makes six: The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted, and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages, and Historians, makes me absolutely certain, that there were such Kings of England, as Kenulphus, King Edwin, Edw. the Confessor, William the first, Hen. 1. Hen. 3. Edw. 2. Edw. 3. Rich. 2. Hen. 4. Hen. 5. Hen. 6. Edw. 4. Rich. 3. H. 7. H. 8. and also that in their several and respective Reigns, the Pope's claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here in England was declared null, even by those of the Romish Communion, and that the King was acknowledged to be the Vicar of the highest King, complete Monarch, Head of the whole body of the Realm, to govern and rule the Kingdom and People of the Land, and above all things the Holy Church, and defend the same, to give Authority to his Clergy, to exercise Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in this Realm, according to Canons and Laws made for that purpose, and that all Dignitaries of the Church derive their preferments from the King and no other, exclusive of the Pope's Authority in all Cases whatsoever.  Pap. 
How can you call that an absolute Certainty, when there is at the same time a Possibility that the same may be false, for there is a Possibility, that all Historians may be mistaken, and all Histories forged?  Phy. 
So is there as much Possibility, that the Air may become an unproportionate Medium, and disturb my Certainty of sight, and so the Sense deluded; so may I have a Delirium, and my Intellectuals at some time disturbed in their Mathematical Activity, and so confound all absolute Certainties: But until there appear an absolute Certainty of such Interruptions of such means of absolute Certainties, the three absolute Certainties remain such, for it is not enough to suppose a Possibility to the contrary, that makes them less certain, but there must appear as high a Certainty to the contrary: And while my Understanding is fully satisfied of such Certainties, it is impossible to believe a Possibility to the contrary: and in case of Historians reporting a matter of Fact diversely, the greater and more valuable Testimony is, to my understanding, absolute, the other not; as if, Mr. Cressey affirms in his Church-History, that this Kingdom of England was for One thousand years absolutely subject to the Spiritual Jurisdiction of the Pope, and all the Testimonies before mentioned (which are Records kept and preserved inviolate and sacred in the Archives of the Kingdom, with the care equal with the Evidences for the Crown and Concerns of the King and People) say the contrary, I take it this last Testimony is of absolute Certainty, the other not.  Pap. 
But notwithstanding all these Records, Popery was in all those Kings Reigns used in England.  Phy. 
It was so, and Hen. 8. died one of your steady Roman-Church Catholics; but whatsoever powers the Pope had in any, or all those Kings Reigns in England, was merely by the Concession of such Kings, and not otherwise, and at their will and pleasure only, and which they might at any time resume at the like pleasure, which other Kings have done since: And I must tell you, that although such Concessions have been, yet they ought not to have been, for the King cannot grant away any Inherent Flower of the Crown, such as Jurisdiction is, no more than he can grant away the Crown itself: And whereas the timorous King John, the very black Patch of the English Race, laid down his Crown at the Infidel Ambassadors feet, and afterwards allowed it Tributary to your Italian Usurper: It was more than he by the Law of this Realm could do, and his Acts therein were wholly void, but the King may appoint or alter a Discipline and Worship, not contrary to God's Holy Will and Appointment.  Pap. 
Well, but what if the King should appoint a Liturgy and Form of Worship the same with that of the Catholic Countries?  Phy. 
If he should, what then? would that satisfy the true Catholics of the Church of Rome, and make them true English men?  Pap. 
I believe it might, for while you have so good Authority against the Pope's Jurisdiction here, I cannot see at present what more they can have.  Phy. 
I vow, I see such kind of arguings as these will soon bring these Controversies into a narrow Room, and (being pressed forward and home) to an End.  Pap. 
Hold there, for though I cannot at present answer your studied Arguments, yet I may upon Deliberation; however there are them, who are able to do it, whom I shall consult, and then talk with you further.  Phy. 
There are them? Very well, who are them with a Mischief? What blind leads the blind? Credulity and Ignorance are the Pillars of your Church: But come Sir, let me give you some Advice; The Service of God ought to be a reasonable Service▪ that is, Logical, according to the word in the Original reasoning, or your reason ought to be primarily concerned therein: You are a person endued with rational Faculties, and some stock of Improvements? You are thereby distinguished from Brut●, you are not to act, in things of Religion, out of Custom, Precept or Example merely, but to be a wise Berean, more noble than those of Thessalonica, to search the Scriptures, and try whether what is taught you be according thereto; do not pin your Faith on other men's sleeus (as the saying is) admire not persons ignorantly, nor things for persons sakes: It was not a justifiable saying of him, who had rather be in an Error with Plato, then in the truth with any other. There was one Farrel an active Presbyterian in Geneva, after whom the People flocked: In so much as one became so bold as to say, he gave greater honour to Farrel then to Paul, and another said of Calvin, that were Paul and Calvin to preach together, he would leave Paul to hear Calvin: So that many men profess this or that Sect of Religion, not so much for Religion sake, as for the sake of the Sect Leaders: Imitate St. Austin, who having a long time followed St. Cyprian (an Orthodox Father of the Church) in the interpretation of a place of Scripture, afterwards met with Ticonius (an Heretic) interpreting that place, which he closed with, conceiving it best.  Pap. 
Truly, Sir, I deny not but your Advice is wholesome, and perhaps seasonable, I shall think of it: But, Sir, what if the Roman Catholics should declare, that they believed and owned the King's Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction as well as Temporal in all his Dominions, and disowned the Pope's right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever here, would not that be Security sufficient for the public Peace, and prevent severe Laws against us?  Phy. 
I think in such case our King might well say of such Papists, as the Duke of Saxony, said of the Lutherans, viz. what they believe now I know, but what they will believe next year I know not: And you may deny the Pope's Jurisdiction here, as the Papists in France, did the Pope's power of Princes, yet hold it so at Rome: And you may own Allegiance, and Supremacy, to be in the King, as Vavinus wrote for Providence, yet denied a deity. But I do think that an Oath to that purpose well Penned and well taken, would conduce somewhat to the Peace of the Nation, provided, ye by the same Oath declared, that the Pope could not dispense therewith. And if the Pope himself would also declare so, That would certainly conduce to make your true Roman Catholic a true English man; and until both be so done, I cannot promise security to the peace of the Nation: But I pray, why are you so in love with the Romish Liturgy and Worship, that you would have it established here?  Pap. 
For these Reasons, 1. For that it is for the Honour of the Christian Religion, that the same way of Worship might be observed in all Christian Churches. 2. For that the way of the Romish Worship, has been used in all Christian Ages, and in all Christian Kingdoms and Places, till of late, and is still used in some Kingdoms, where the Pope's Jurisdiction is not allowed.  Phy. 
Sir, as to your first reason, I agree it would be exceedingly for the Honour of the Christian Religion, if such Harmony and Agreement could be used in religious Worship, as that one God might be worshipped in one way; but as that never was, so, I fear, never will be, till all things be no more: As to your second reason, I deny that the Romish Worship, as now is used, was in any Christian Age or Kingdom used for above five hundred years after Christianity came into the world, nor do your true English Roman Catholics, as you call them, now agree with any other Christian Kingdom, Church or Place whatsoever, if they belie not themselves.  Pap. 
Well, it has been so long used, and with so general a Consent and Approbation, as may well Entitle it to a preference, to this new upstart way of Worship, which this Nation has had not above 100▪ Years.  Phy. 
As to the Argument of Antiquity, and long Usage: It may be good, in cases of Politic, and Civil rights and Interests, and become determinative, provided it be not against positive Laws, natural Equity or reason; And in these Exterior parts of Religion, it can obtain no more: For a way of worship repugnant to the positive Law declared in Scripture, or repugnant to the positive Law of the supreme Magistrate, ought not to be exercised by any Subject living under the protection of that Supreme Magistrate, without sin and breach of Allegiance: And Sir, I must tell you further, that this Notion of Antiquity (though of great veneration in itself, yet) has been often used to the disadvantage of truth, and made a Stolen to dangerous mistakes, and corrupt purposes. You know who was reproved for not walking after the Traditions of the Elders. 7. Mat. 5. and who were so zealous for the Traditions of the Fathers. 1. Gal. 14. Against whose Arguments of Antiquity, it was only opposed search the Scriptures▪ 5. John 39 and you may see 17 Acts 19 who scoffed at the new Doctrine, as you at this new upstart way of Worship, though indeed elder to yours: So the Antiquity (barely as such) is no Argument for one, or against another, or that the more ancient (as such) is to be preferred before the late; but again, I say, search and try, which is the best, and adhere to that, for the Improvement of your own (not another man's) Talent must enrich you.  Pap. 
This despising of things ancient, and entertaining of things Novel in Religion, has not only made a lamentable breach in the Catholic Church, but this Nation more particularly and dolefully has felt the direful Effects thereof, in your Divisions and Subdivisions in the matters of Religion, and the ways of religious Worship; witness all your Sects and Dissensions, that have lately overrun the Nation.  Phy. 
As this Objection is of some standing, so it's ne'er the better, nor stronger for it, for new Answers have fully confounded it, as well to the reason of the thing, as to a returning it with abundant additions on the Romish Church, wherein are many more Divisions, Sects and Dissension then in ours, as Doctor Stillingfleet has learnedly and faithfully made out in one Chapter of his Book against Idolatry, etc.  Pap. 
Pray then tell me a reason, why may not I or another so persuaded, with good conscience, use the Romish Way of Worship and Devotion, and not the English Way of Worship, if I allow the King's Supremacy, and disallow the Popes?  Phy. 
Laying aside the reasons urged against the irrationality, foppish, feigned Superstition, Incredibility, and Idolatry, at large discoursed by Dr. Stillingfleet in his Book against their Idolatry and Fanaticism, and its Vindication, a Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions; another, the Triumphs of Rome over despised Protestancy, two others, viz. the Funeral of the Mass, and the depth and mystery of the Mass, which I wish you to read and others; I'll tell you another reason, (viz.) because the King has commanded the contrary.  Pap. 
Why, can the Kings Command bind me in my way of Worship? is it not sufficient if I disown the Pope?  Phy. 
You disown the Pope only by half, yet such disowning may be well done, and if we could be assured it was well done might give some Security to the King against Forreign, Civil Pretenders, but still you give him no Security for perfect Obedience, as a true English man, and against breach of the peace of the Church, if you conform not to his lawful Commands in his ways of Worship.  Pap. 
Pray, how come the King to have power to impose a way of Worship according to his own Will?  Phy. 
The King has as much Power to impose a way of Worship here, as the Pope has in his Dominions, but neither has Power to impose a way of Worship absolutely, according to his own William.  Pap. 
What? has the King Power to impose a Way of Worship, and yet not according to his own Will? pray according to whose Will does he so impose, etc.  Phy. 
He imposes it according to the Will of God?  Pap. 
How can that be, for the Protestants say that no Way of Worship is expressly appointed in Scripture, and they allow no Revelations to holy men to be credited.  Phy. 
This is the rule they go by, whatsoever in Religion is not of the essence of Christian Religion entitled by our Saviour himself, or declared or advised to be practised by the Apostles, is lawfully looked on as Religion of State, in that it may be altered or improved, or abolished by the Sovereign power, for the better Advancement of those ends which are essential; the same power may remove Errors, Inconveniences, Scandals and abuses therein; and of that Nature is the way of Worship, and so within the Power of the King: The King has no Power over the kernel, but over the shell he has, and by his Sovereign power that is preserved inviolate.  Pap. 
Well, but if he has such power, why could he not keep the Old shell, but make a New one?  Phy. 
Our King has not made a New shell to keep the Old kernel in, but he has amended the Old shell, for the better preservation of the Old kernel.  Pap. 
I apprehend what you mean by kernel and shell, you may continue the Metaphor, and tell me wherein our King contributes to the preservation of the Old kernel more than his Holiness.  Phy. 
Why then, I'll tell you, this kernel and shell first grew in Palestine, which was a land as fruitful, as that mentioned, Deut. 8. and more for fruit-trees (especially Figs there) never leave bearing the old Figs, continuing till the new come, which resolus 14 Mark 13. But for shell fruit (especially such as we talk of) Dr. Heylin says, little is there, but what comes from Damascus: And as to this shell fruit of ours, some Indignities being offered thereto by untoward Neighbours, viz▪ the Essens, Saducees, Scribes, Pharisees, Herodians and Galileans: It was thought fit to be transplanted. And one St. Joseph an honourable Counsellor planted it in England; where it continued and did thrive exceedingly, the Kernel flourishing, keeping its native Vigour, Sap and Colour, the Shell fine, thin, well favoured, and as hard (one would think) as a Rock, and so it continued near five hundred years, afterwards by the Luxuriancy of the Soil, and the over officious, and too critical Appointments and Trials of some Supervisors, and too lazy and superficial of others, on this well coloured, thin, and hard shell, a kind of false Rind grew and covered it quite over, till you could not see the true shell; this Rind was maintained, as engendered, by something foreign, nothing from the Kernel: It happened that a great Wind arose once upon a time, about the time of Lent, I think it was a westerly Wind, and as easterly Winds bring in Autumn Ascarides, to destroy Orchards and Garden Fruits, so in Lent this westerly Wind brought an infinite number of Vermin (of equivocal generation to be sure) into our Land, they were of several shapes and colours, all of them but of two legs, devilish beaks like birds of prey, some were red, some russet, some black, and some of all colours, and Sir, this sort of verminous Breedlings (after that the gross putrid Air, that was their Parent and Vehicle hither▪ became somewhat rarified, and so not so full of luscious support) got into this scurvy Rind, and there digged their Mansions, and for many years lived on the adventitious juice which supplied the Rind, which strange Animals (swarming to too great a number) could not be preserved with fatness in the Rind, but lay gnawing on the shell, made holes therein, and (as I'm credibly informed) had almost endangered the kernel, whereupon the Matter was inquired into, and found out by skilful Workmen, who quite pared off the Rind, and so destroyed the Nests of those Caterpillars, and have endeavoured to keep the shell, well favoured, thin and hard, as it was at first, yet (its strange) though one sort of Vermin be scraped off, another kind of Vermin like Mites will fall on, if not warily looked after; but for the whole Matter, we keep it now pretty well, only now and then washing it over with a little water and Salt.  Pap. 
Well Sir, if you mean by the Kernel, the Christian Religion, by the Shell, Discipline on Worship, and by the Rind some Super additions thereupon, in which, or upon which the Romish Priests and Regulars lived, and by the paring of the Rind, the Reformation, and by the Mites, your own Sectaries, and by Water and Salt, penal laws, as I think you do: What if all this be true, which I deny, yet how come your Kings to have any thing to do in Reformation of the Church?  Phy. 
Our Kings have power to reform the Church of England, etc. by a Power inherent in them, as Emperors within their Dominions.  Pap. 
How, Emperors? sure you'll not make that out. When were the Kings of England styled Emperors?  Phy. 
Whether any of our Kings were actually styled Emperors is not the point: But they were so ever since they wore an Imperial Crown, and that is ever since there was first a King of England.  Pap. 
But how does that make him Governor of the Church?  Phy. 
That makes him not Governor of the Church, but God made him such, and That is Evidence, that God made him such, the Crown of England never being rightfully dependent, as to any Jurisdiction, on any foreign Emperor, Prince, Potentate or Patriarch, and so is his Crown Imperial, and his power absolute, according to the most ancient Constitution and Laws of this Realm, in all matters Civil and Ecclesiastical. Our King is by our fundamental Laws a person sacred, and mixed with the Priesthood, and at his Coronation by a solemn Consecration and Unction, he becomes a sacred and Ecclesiastical Person, for as he hath put upon him the regal Crown, as Emblem of his Kingship and Power in Temporals, so hath he a Sacerdotal Vestment, commonly called Dalmatick, as a Levitical Ephod, to signify his Power in Spirituals; and accordingly our Kings have always (on occasion) called a National Synod (called here a Convocation) consisting of the Clergy-Lords and Commons, appoints a Primate to preside there, and they consult together, and prepare Canons for ordering such Church matters, as the King appoints, and no more, which the King afterward Enacts, and makes to be Laws by his Royal Assent; What can your Pope say more for himself?  Pap. 
He can say much more for himself.  Phy. 
I believe he can say enough, but he cannot prove half he says.  Pap. 
He can prove that his way of Worship has been used longer than yours.  Phy. 
More shame, that it has been suffered so long, but let it be what it will in other Countries, still I say it ought not to be so here, since the Laws of the Land command the contrary, the Pope having no Right to any Jurisdiction here, as before is said. And I must tell you, and can make it good, That the King of England hath been styled Vicar of the highest God, long before the Pope became a Prince or Pope.  Pap. 
These (Methinks) are odd things, and contrary to the Law of God.  Phy. 
Pray, Sir, let me ask you a few Questions, viz. first, whether Peter▪ had any thing to do here in England, when Joseph of Arimathea was here? Or when Paul was here? Which was before he was at Rome, and Joseph came hither with his twelve holy Complices after Stephen's death: The first Christian Church was built by Joseph at Glassenbury, here was three Archbishops and twenty eight Bishops before Austin the Monk came hither, who refused to keep Easter as it was kept at Rome, to baptise by their Ceremonies, or to join in preaching with the Anglo-Saxons, I say, pray in all this time, which was some Hundreds of years next after our Saviour, what Jurisdiction did St. Peter or his Romish Successors claim in England: Pray, where was Pope or Supremacy either, before they were given to Boniface the third, anno 606, by Phocas (that Adulterous Assassin) who slew his Master Mauritius, the Emperor; before that, Pope was usual to other Bishops, then Volumus and Jubemus came in the room of I beseech ye Brethren. Rom. 13. and (which is remarkable) Mahomet the Grand Impostor broke then out also, when the Pope became a Temporal Prince by the Gift to him of the Kingdom of the Lombard's by Pippin, Son of Charles Martel. Another Question is Sir, whether our King is not as good a Successor to St. Joseph, as a Lay Pope is to St. Peter: Pope Constantine the fourth being opposed by the Council of Lateran, as being a Lay person justified himself, and shown for Precedent Sergius Bishop of Ravenna, and Stephen Bishop of Naples; and when the Pope said first Mass in the City of Constance, King Sigismond in Deacons habit read the Gospel out of St. Luke 2. there went out a Decree from Caesar Augustus, etc.  Pap. 
Well Sir, let's not talk too much of these matters; for I may be drawn into a snare in seeming to lessen the King's Authority, from whom I expect protection, and desire the Exercise of my Religion after my own Judgement.  Phy. 
Your own Judgement? I like the words well, and wish you guided by your own Judgement, rightly improved by due Inquiries into things, and not by the Judgement of others, without a rational satisfaction, why or wherefore, but only you must do, because you are bid to do so, and until that, you may expect and desire long enough before it be granted.  Pap. 
Why should you be so severe against us, who promise all due Obedience to the King, and not to disturb the peace of the Nation?  Phy. 
You may promise due Obedience, but than you tell not what that due Obedience is. Also men of your persuasion have always promised fair, but no Age can testify their suitable performances, if fit occasion be offered to the contrary.  Pap. 
Why, then will you condemn all for some?  Phy. 
How shall we distinguish ye? Will ye Rendezvouz on black Heath, and divide into parties?  Pap. 
I gave you a Distinction before of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists, the latter only are proper to be called Papists, the former true Roman Catholics.  Phy. 
Why? Then I am no Protestant, but a true English Catholic?  Pap. 
Yes, though you be not a Lutheran Protestant, nor a Calvinian Protestant, yet you protest against the Church of Rome.  Phy. 
So though you be not a Jesuit Papist, a de fide Papist, yet you are a Papist, owning the Pope's Authority against the Church of England.  Pap. 
Well, than you acknowledge us not to be so dangerous, as some other Papists are?  Phy. 
Truth, I cannot acknowledge ye so, for, for aught I know, or perhaps yourselves, you may be as ill as the worst: And whilst you make a Party disclaimer of the Pope's Authority here, that may be but a pretence, and you may have the Pope's Authority for so doing: It's not a new thing that Dispensations have been given by the Pope (and frequently they are) not only to Church with us at large, but to communicate with us also, and some have had Indulgences to worship Idols in proper Countries. And this is your holy Stratagem, like that of Cromwell, who banished some hence, to betray the King beyond Sea: And it is to be remembered, That Watson (of whom your Peter Walsh speaks so well, and called himself Puritan Papist, and was of the same opinion with him in all your Distinctions and professions of Allegiance and Obedience to our King) proved in conclusion a most notorious open Traitor.  Pap. 
I cannot tell, but I protest if the Pope should invade ENGLAND, to disturb the Peace thereof; I would draw my sword as soon against him, as I did against Cromwell.  Phy. 
So I have heard others (greater than you) to have said, but pray deal fairly and candidly with me, what is it that you would have?  Pap. 
That's a Strange Question at this time of day?  Phy. 
It's not strange: while I judge by your uncertain Discourses, you know not well what to have.  Pap. 
Why? I would have Liberty to exercise Religion according to the Church of Rome.  Phy. 
That's divers from what you asked before; for the Religion of the Church of Rome is, that the Pope has power over our King, and how consists that with your Protestation to fight against him (if he Exercises that power) equally as against Cromwell; this is one of your Romish Equivocations, and it may be you did not draw your Sword against Cromwell, or that you intent the Pope's personal Invasion of ENGLAND, which is likely, for the Pope by his Authority given to his Emissaries invades ENGLAND, and disturbs its peace every day?  Pap. 
I intent it as fully as can be intended of any sort of Invasion, or disturbance of peace by himself or others, for it suffices me to Exercise the Roman Catholic Religion, after the manner used by the true-English-Roman-Catholicks.  Phy. 
Would you Exercise a Religion after such a manner, as is not used or exercised in any one Country whatsoever? Pray Sir, give me leave to ask you another Strange Question, as you call it? viz. Do you think it necessary to be of the Communion of some Church or no?  Pap. 
'Tis strange indeed: Yes, I do think it absolutely necessary to be of the Communion of the Church of ROME, and I am so.  Phy. 
Very well: Why are you so?  Pap. 
Because my Superior is so.  Phy. 
Who is your Superior?  Pap. 
Your pardon for that Sir.  Phy. 
Is he an ENGLISH Roman-Catholick Priest now residing in ENGLAND?  Pap. 
He is; and what then? I hope you intent not to inveigle me into a Discovery of him to his harm.  Phy. 
No indeed, I wish them all well, well informed, or well out of harms way, but my aim was by that to tell you what I think, viz. That, that very Superior of yours is not now, nor has he been for many years last passed, himself a Member of that Church, or of that Communion, or if he be, he's but a lame Member.  Pap. 
Sir, you think strangely, and I must tell you, that he is Professor of Divinity, and a Priest of the Order of St. Francis.  Phy. 
Let him be what he will, or can, I say still as I did before, and will Justify it, that's more; but we'll let that alone till anon, and I'll be hold to ask you another question, which may not seem so Strange as the former, and that is, how near does your Church of Rome agree with our Church of England in the business of Excommunications.  Pap. 
What your Church of England intends by Excommunication, you know best; but our Church of Rome holds, That when a Man is Excommunicated by our Church, he is quite cut off from the Church and its Communion, and delivered over to Satan, until penance be done and absolution given to him; and for its power I'll tell you, the Abbey of Fusuiack was infested with Flies, the Abbot Clareval, said Excommunico eas, and they were all dead immediately. A white loaf by Excommunication turns as black as a Coal, and being absolved turns just as it was; one Robert Brook being Excommunicated, the Dogs would not take bones from him.  Phy. 
Why then you have proved your Professor of Divinity, your Franciscan Priest, to be, not only in a woeful condition, but not of the Church of Rome, nor of its Communion: For he is, and has been a long time Excommunicated by the Pope, for those very distinctions that you and others dote upon, and have mentioned in this our discourse.  Pap. 
Sure it can't be so?  Phy. 
Do you know Obedient Peter Walsh?  Pap. 
I have good reason to know him, and love him, and honour him; for he is a Learned Pious and Peaceable minded man.  Phy. 
Why, he it was that telled me of the Excommunication I mention.  Pap. 
I can't believe it.  Phy. 
I verily believe he telled it you too.  Pap. 
On my Credit he telled it not to me.  Phy. 
Why, he telled it to all the English and Irish Roman Catholics, and writ a Letter to them all, and printed it, and says so in that Letter, page 5. 47. 48. So then he is disabled to officiate as a Priest, and while he remains so disabled, and others of the same opinion, as Mr. Walsh says, there are five hundred in England. What Confessors have you, and who can make new ones but the Pope? and will he make any more of the same Opinion, or such as are not of his Faith? and what if Priest's be changed, or change their opinions? as to our State, what security can be given against it? As for ye poor Blinds, ye are already in the Snare, and how to get out, how know ye? for ye must not dispute (nor can ye for want of knowledge, which is necessarily kept from ye) Nor (if ye could) must ye dispute with your Superiors, but ye must believe as the Church believes▪ Yet the reason of such belief, ye must not inquire into, for the Pope is to Explicate all Matters, and all other Explications are declared void and Null, by Pope Pius the Fourth, in a Bull for that purpose, which Bull all Priests are sworn to obey, however your dispensing Priests may wheadle with ye. And in truth it comes to this, that either such a True Roman Catholic, as your Confessor pretends to be, must commit Treason, or renounce some Articles of Faith, holden by that Church, which he advises and conjures ye to believe.  Pap. 
Then I hope, such a man deserves protection and favour here, who for his Allegiance to the King runs such a bazard?  Phy. 
I can't see what protection, or favour he deserves, for such Allegiance or hazard, nor can I tell how far such a one is to be trusted, who is a Heretic at Rome, and called, True Roman-Catholick in England, and cannot agree with the King, if the King should agree with him. Let the King do as he pleases. Why? is it to be thought that he should yield due Obedience to our King, to save his Neck, who refuses due Obedience, to his supreme head of his Church to save his Soul?  Pap. 
Judge not too rashly? for the Franciscan you speak of is accounted a Man—  Phy. 
Let him be accounted what he will, and make what profession of Allegiance and Obedience he pleases, this I know, That the Pharisees (Christ's utter Enemies) called themselves so, as holy Seperalists, as others have called themselves the Family of Love, the Saints, etc. The Saduces who denied the grand Article of Faith, the Resurrection, so called as the righteous. The learned Gnostics, and the Robbers Zealots, and Peter Walsh says, there are Indifferents, Zealots, Bigots and Hypocrites among them, so call these Interpendents between Pope and King, what you please: I know what to call them, as before, and while I think it not safe for them to be in either place, ROME or ENGLAND, etc. I advise them to hasten to a Locus tertius, and be sure they die in belief of Purgatory.  Pap. 
It's time for us to have done; I see you are an angry Protestant.  Phy. 
I'm glad you can see me something, and of some Church. I cannot see what, or of what Church you are, or would be.  Pap. 
But Sir, Do not you think we have travailed ten miles from London?  Phy. 
Truly, yes, I take it you have travailed full ten miles.  Pap. 
Then at yonder Sign I'll stay and consider a while.  Phy. 
Sir, if you stay an hour there, I'll come and drink a glass of Wine with you.  Pap. 
Content. Sir.  Phy. 
Farewell.   

THE Second PART.  PHY. 
How now Sir, what? mounted already? I had hopes to have drank a Bottle of Wine with you, and made haste accordingly?  Pap. 
Sir, I have stayed a full hour here, my Landlord affirms so, and that is as much as you desired.  Phy. 
Sir, I perceive you are a Person that stints yourself in the Duties of Religion and Conversation.  Pap. 
As long Sir, as I fulfil all Commands, I fulfil the Law.  Phy. 
You may be said to fulfil the Law, and yet at the same time not to be obedient to that Law: For, if a man fulfils the Law to save the penalty which the Civil Sanction annexes, that's done by force, when as all Obedience is spontaneous, and aught to be made from the reason of the thing in Morals, for the reason of the Command in Indifferents, yet not for the Command sake, but by Law natural, which enjoins such Commands to be obeyed, as before I said.  Pap. 
Sir, you are a strange man, thus to arraign me in my Morals.  Phy. 
I find good cause so to do, for what ever Huffs and Bragadochoes some of your Clergy make about Demonstration, I find as they understand not, so with you of the Laity, you take all things on trust.  Pap. 
What reason have you to say so? you know not on what Grounds we go.  Phy. 
Yes, since I've met with you, I have well learned how to judge of you, and that you take things on trust, as for Example,  
1. You took it on trust, that Ogilbies' Wheel had declared it twelve Miles to Rumford.  
2. You took it on trust from me (of a different Religion) that you had travailed ten miles.  
3. You took it on trust from your Landlord that you had stayed a full hour for me.  
4. You took it on trust, that your great Franciscan was of the Communion of the Church of Rome: In all which you may be mistaken, and in the last doubtless are for the reasons before.  Pap. 
But pray, whither travail you now? Faith, I have been considering of somewhat you said before, and now you hint at again, i. e. If any Priest be excommunicated, how can he be a true Roman Catholic? therefore, for aught I know, I am none neither, and so not within the Proclamation, and so may return back again to London; however I'll go and inform myself better of these things you have mentioned. (I do not doubt, but at another time to answer them all fully) if I cannot, I know who can?  Phy. 
You had need be better informed indeed. I wish you good Information, better than your excommunicated Friar can give.  Pap. 
I'll tell you since you and I parted, I was thinking of you, and of your profession, and wondered that you stuck so long on Religion, since you are counted Atheists.  Phy. 
Perhaps some may count us so, for looking into natural Causes and appointing natural Remedies; perhaps the Vulgar may count us so, because we seldom go to Church, the reason of which is manifest from the urgency of our Concerns, being on life and death, and not to be neglected.  Pap. 
Yes, truly I have heard the Urgencies are often so great and so many, that a man is appointed to come frequently into the Church to call out the Doctor, without cause, and so he cheats God, himself, and the whole Congregation.  Phy. 
What some men may do I know not, this I am sure, the worst of us all cheats not so much as the best of your persuasion.  Pap. 
I believe I know the reason why some Physicians are so angry with our Religion.  Phy. 
I beseech you, why are Physicians angry with your Religion, more than others, while even now they had none?  Pap. 
Let their Religion be what it will, they will pretend any Religion rather than ours, for Pope Greg. 15. anno 1622. prohibited Catholics to use heretical Physicians.  Phy. 
If you have heard of a Book called Religio Medici, you will there find good Religion, and the Exterior part thereof such, as may deserve kindness from a Puritan Papist, yet containing himself within the just bounds of an English Protestant.  Pap. 
It is that very Book came even now into my mind, and I remember he says there, that he thanked God, he did not live in the time of Christ and his Apostles: And a witty Animadverter (a Roman Catholic I will warrant him) said it might be, because his practice would have been spoiled, for Christ and his Apostles cured gratis; and On my Conscience, that makes your Profession so angry with our Religion?  Phy. 
Pray, are Papists so charitable as to cure for nothing? I'm sure I know some Physicians of that persuasion, who take as much money as they can get.  Pap. 
All Catholics are not of one mind, but I remember you talked much of your Records, and I'm sure we have better Records of more good done by the Physic of the Church, then by the Physics of your College and Universities.  Phy. 
The Physic of the Church? I thought England had now been Master of all the Methods and Systems of Physic extant, yet among them I have not met with the Physic of the Church.  Pap. 
It is a curing after the Hermitical way.  Phy. 
Hermetical? I have read Hermes Trismegistus, that excellent Philosopher, and I think am acquainted with all Medicines and Recipes Hermetical, Empirical, and Chemical.  Pap. 
Sir, you mistake me. I confess, that the Science of Physic, in all Rules of Art, is more refined in England, then was ever before, but I say not Hermetical but Hermitical.  Phy. 
Pray unfold yourself.  Pap. 
Why there's it now? The unfolding of this Notion Hermitical, will make you understand the Physic of the Church.  Phy. 
Oh! I think I take it now. You mean some found out in the Cloisters, which you call Church Physic.  Pap. 
I do so, and the use of the Physic would break Doctors, Apothecaries and Surgeons.  Phy. 
Pray tell's some of it.  Pap. 
Some of it? why I could entertain you from hence to London with it.  Phy. 
Come, faith, we have been serious long enough, now make me merry.  Pap. 
Hold ye there; I'm better appointed, then to sport with things sacred: yet what I shall tell you, may occasion a religious mirth, were you rightly disposed?  Phy. 
Sir, I can demean myself answerable to any Entertainment, and shall frame myself to your Conversation: pray begin.  Pap. 
Sir, I can tell you how to cure Childbed Griefs, by praying to St. Marquerite, how St. Marus Bishop of Tryers cures Palsies and Convulsions, St. Nicholas cures dangers at Sea, St. Venisa Green-sicknesses and women's Diseases, St. Lucy Unchastity; and (which is remarkable) St. Cosma and St. Damian, both Physicians, cure all Diseases gratis, and purely upon humble request: And St. Appollonia being prayed unto, cures the Toothache, which never a Doctor can do; and I doubt not but (when St. Austin said he was cured of the Toothache by prayers) it was by praying to this Saint: And the Arm of St. David cures the Plague, without the help of Doctor Hodges' book: And if I should tell you all I could, especially of the three Kings of Collen, viz. St. Jasper, St. Melchior, and St. Balthasar, you would wonder.  Phy. 
I might wonder indeed, and so I did, when I read the late Book, called Reflections on the Romish Devotions, and I wondered again and again, that rational men (in any Age, much less in this Age, and in this Climate, where Learning and Knowledge is so much refined, improved and sublimed) should so nightmare their Vitalities, with a — rudis indigestaque moles of ridiculous Trash, and suffer themselves to be blindfolded, waving their proper Conduct of Reason, and following they know not whom, they know not how, they know not whither, especially in their Devotions. And therefore Sir, you may forbear your Hermitical Dispensatory, for I am weary of that, and of my Journey too, therefore let's hasten.  Pap. 
Sir, I could in a short Discourse sufficiently make good the Devotions of our Church to the Saints, and enough to convince any rational man.  Phy. 
Truly Sir, I must confess you may tell a great many pretty Tales, that might cousin my thoughts of the badness of the ways, and the uneasiness of my horse, & may be so far acceptable; but my Judgement will be no way moved to think them so much as probably true. And Sir, the Saints to whom those pretended Miracles are by your Church ascribed, are all of ancient time; and I hear not of any modern Saints, that are endowed with such powers: So that it should seem your Church has been of late very barren of Saints, or else your Saints have been very lazy, and I wonder that the Relics of no late Pope Saints are found.  Pap. 
As to that Sir, I must confess that these Saints I have mentioned, lived, and were famous under the Government of the Catholic Bishop of Old Rome, and since that the Christian Faith is settled, there is no need of extraordinary ways.  Phy. 
But you know many of the other were not for great ends, but trials of skill, and now is more need to believe then ever: But why Old Rome, I hope you do not mean Pagan Rome?  Pap. 
No, I mean old Christian Rome, when Christianity was first planted there.  Phy. 
You do well to appoint them to Ages so long ago, that the truth cannot be inquired into: and I will tell you my Conceit how these Fables first came up. The Heathens, being guilty of Idolatry, worshipping stocks, stones, Images, imaginary Deities and Devils, the ignorant Christians in those dark times, to draw them into the Christian Religion by degrees, might use a kind of a pious fraud, in altering the then Worship from those Objects, and substituting in their room the Images of the Trinity, Angels, Saints and holy Christians: So came the vain repetitions of Prayers, as the Heathens use 6, Mat. 7. And perhaps Dominus Deus Papae so succeeded Deus Antoninus, and Dominus Deus Domitianus; and because Dea Pecunia had a Temple in Rome, Money has been since as much worshipped there as Juno Moneta, and the votivae tabulae hung up in your Churches to the Virgin Mary and Saints, etc. after Diseases cured, were the same as was done among the Pagans, (viz) to Isis in Egypt, and so in Rome, like our late Mountebanks Catalogues of Cures, which might take by the semblance of their Worship, and so by degrees draw them quite off to the true Christian Worship. Which design not only took effect, but the succeeding Ages proving sottish and unlearned, contented themselves with what an Infant Christian Age had done, and continued that worship, part Heathen, part Christian, and grew into a belief, that the fabulous Mousetraps, made to catch Pagans and bring them into the Church, were the true Gospel Engines to bring Christians to Heaven: So the Inquisition was first invented as a Trap against Moors, after a snare for sheep; which senseless Dotage has ever since bewitched the foolish Romans, and has the face to confront this inquisitive Age, just like the man, that by frequently telling of a Lie▪ came at last to believe it.  Phy. 
Truly, Sir, your conceit may have something of Truth in it, as to the conversion of the Heathens into the Christian Religion by the Catholic Church of Old Rome: But that the way of Worship and Devotion, continued by them for so many hundred years, should deserve your harsh and profane language▪ I understand not, for the primitive Church was (doubtless) as wise as the Church at any time since.  Phy. 
That the primitive Catholic Church, was as wise as the Church has at any time since been, I agree; and so was the Primitive Romish Church, when St. Paul and St. Peter were there, but I know when it failed in its Wisdom and Worship; and you yourself admit, it's not so wise now, by your distinction of Old Rome and New Rome. Pray unfold that a little.  Pap. 
The Catholic Bishop of Old Rome never pretended to an Universal Monarchy, both in Spirituals, and Temporals, over the whole Earth, as the Bishop of New Rome doth, and to be Superior to other sovereign Princes in civil matters, and as to that point I call this New Rome, from this New Doctrine, which I oppose as strongly as any Protestant.  Phy. 
Sir, I should have thought, that the difference you make between Old Rome, and New Rome, had been with reference to Physic, for that Old Rome was contented with the renowned Aescalapius, who cured diseases after the method we now use, and New Rome (it seems) fancies curing after the Hermitical way, as you say; But pray, Sir, did your Priest adopt you into the Communion of Old Rome's, or New Rome's Church? Or, did he tell you the difference between the Doctrines and Worship of one or the other? I doubt not. Yet, you say true in saying its a Doctrine, and a New Doctrine, for it was made such, by the Council of Lateran, and the Council of Lions, and not before. So it is that the Pope may dispense with Oaths, and in execution of that Article in Queen Elizabeth's time, such dispensations were intercepted in their journey, to the Steady Roman Church Catholics in Scotland, pretending as your Superiors do, and by those dispensations the roman-catholics (in general) were allowed to promise, Swear, Subscribe, and do what else should be required of them, so as in mind they continued firm, and did use their diligence to advance (in secret) the Roman Faith? The remembrance of which occasioned King James, to provide as he did against Aequivocal professions, and pretences of Allegiance. Now then, how can one be of the Communion of that Church, who differs from that Church in point of faith (if the Pope or his Counsels may be believed to determine Articles of faith) if Mr. Cress●y saies true in his Book, in which he gives account of his conversion to the Romish Communion; (viz.) That it's impossible, that Catholics should differ in point of Faith, or that Schism should be in their Church, which is grounded on singular reason; for if he differs in Faith, he ceases to be a Catholic, and when one is Schismatic he ceases to be of that Church.  Pap. 
Well, True roman-catholics do hold so; and that makes all of your Church Heretics and Schismatics, and out of our Communion.  Phy. 
In good time, good Fellow Traveller, does it so? Why? then that very thing (if so) makes your True English Roman Church Catholics, Heretics, Schismatics, and not of the Communion of the Romish Church, to which they have so generally and undistinguishingly profelyted you, and endeavour to inveigle others. Judge ye now therefore, whether these Fanatic Papists mean good faith to you, or to their Natural Prince, when they pretend Allegiance to their Liege Lord, and do deny Supremacy to the Pope, in Civil and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here, and accuse their Church to Err in such pretences, and in some matters of Faith, to their utter severance from that Church-Communion, and Protection; and yet at the same time, with all Subtlety and wilily Arts are Discipling English Men, in the Faith and Communion of the Church of Rome, generally without any Restriction or Limitation.  Pap. 
It is enough for us (of the Laity) to believe as the Church believes, in matters which concern us, as Practise and Worship, etc. And for the difficult points of Faith and Disputation, let out Superiors (whose duty it is) look to them, for we shall answer for no more than we know, or are Taught.  Phy. 
Know? or are taught? Will ye suffer your Ears to be stopped, and excuse your not hearing, not knowing, and not being taught? and lay all on him who stopped your Ears with your own consent? Come, Sir, consider, whether it will add any pleasure to your Travail, to go to Hell on another man's back? Or, if you say to the Devil he brought me hither, pray let me go back to whence I came, and keep him: will Old Nick release you? No▪ Therefore get out of your Fetters and duress, break forth from your Ignorant Shackles, search and try, whether your Pope in Church, and Pope in Court agree, then whether your Confessor agrees with Pope or Court, or Church, or with the Communion of any one Country Catholic or other, and you'll easily find him to be so far only like unto the Pope, as an Heteroclite in Religion, either deficient or redundant, and not to be brought under any rule? Then consider further, & use due and utmost searches according to your circumstances with the aid of Divine Assistance, whether it be not better to be guided by the Pope within you, (viz.) your own reason so informed, which was placed there (as was said) to distinguish you from a Brute, that can, go, stand, do, etc. as he is taught, or at least by a Church, in whose Conduct you may have rational satisfaction in all the points of its profession: So than if your Pope, your Councils, your Church, do err (as your true English▪ roman-catholics say they do) in Doctrinals in matters of Faith, How can you be assured, that your Runigate Priests do not err▪ in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads? and in that unintelligible Faith, which is against sense and reason and their own Judgements? And how can you then be assured they err not in worship, which is of less weight?  Pap. 
Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that. However you may see, that we Roman Catholics of this persuasion, submit ourselves to the Laws of the Land, are willing to give security for not disturbing the pe●ce, and of our Allegiance to the King, and so in Justice are entitled to the King's protection, and deserve not to be liable to the penal Laws, intended purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome.  Phy. 
Very well, we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began, and so in our Discourse, (viz.) to the Distinction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists, and I am still of opinion, that neither aught to be suffered here: For were it possible to believe, that all the English Romish Catholics were such Mongrel Papists, as you pretend to be, that is, to obey the Pope in part, and our King in part, as has been said, as is plain they are not, as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formulary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh; yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King. For what security can there be given, that the Roman Catholic, who is false to the Pope, should be faithful to the King, that one can serve two Masters, pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness, that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church, that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed: That one who is of the Church of Rome, should be bound by that Oath, which his Church condemns, and frequently dispenses with, and he owns: that one who is so easy as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome, may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome; and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable, as his partner Cressy's, for the Jesuits, and what Credit can be given to one who broke his Oath to this Church, and then did as much to the other, and is now possessed with, or by, the Devil, being delivered over to Satan? Besides 'tis obvious, how dangerous it is to indulge that: sort of people, by the stir they have lately made in public declaiming against the Religion of this Kingdom, and the disturbance of this Church's peace, which is an ill requital for the King's gracious Clemency, and has awakened those laws, which otherwise might have slept still. And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretic, and will infallibly be damned? How can a Popish Fanatic, who believes all the Enthusiasms allowed in the Romish Church (viz.) the Revelations of Mother Juliana, the Preface to Sancta Sophia who thirsts after the lights which do expel all Images of Creatures, and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God, in the pure fund of the Spirit, who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul, which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress, from whence ariseth a superessential life, being a way of knowing without thoughts, of seeing in darkness, of understanding without reason's, of unknowing God by perceiving, of being melted and brought to nothing first, and then being lost and swallowed up in God, by which means all created being is put off, and that which is only Divine put on, being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire, which is attained to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith, with a more profound introversion of the Spirit, which is the State of Nothingness, or of Totality, or the unica of Nothing with Nothing, by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being, and by consequence of the not being of Creatures? I say how can such a one, who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits, expect any better Entertainment in England, than the three late Yorkshire Quakers had at Rome (viz.) as being dismissed as Madmen: They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy, which oft by shaving is occasioned, and such as this, are some of your. Romish Church Catholics, nay even the Superiors, as they have testified to the World in Print, and why may not such a Romish Church Quaker, who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only, extravagate soon into civil affairs as well as Father White, who never read Mathematics (as he says) and without the Help of Humane Learning, attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle? And how are these Formulary men to be believed, while they can (to the Pope) excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King, by saying that they only acknowledge, but do not swear it? that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath, nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it? Let any one Judge now, comparing their remonstrance to the King, and their Declaration to the Pope, what manner of Allegiance, and Obedience, the King may expect from them, especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo, in the time of Innocent the sixth, That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam, but ad poenam; And by Aquinas, Monks are only bound to profess, not to keep the rules of St. Benedict: just so are our True English Roman Catholics bond to profess and own (as you call it) Allegiance, but how, or when, to keep or pay it, who can he assured thereof? And their stories tell us, That the Devil appeared to Friar Ruffin in form of Christ. And what security is there by that Oath taken by them, while the same persons taking that Oath, can confidently assure the Pope, That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath, nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath, or any part of it, which is as much as to say, and believe, that the Pope can dispense therewith, which they may more easily believe, then that the Pope can dispense with St. Paul's Epistles, with the New Testament, with the Old and New Testament, with the whole law of God, and (to complete the Pope's power) He can in a manner do all things that God can do, which several Tenets, are holden by true Roman Catholics, and others have affirmed that the Pope is, above Law, against Law, without Law, and can do all things, and that in all Oaths the Pope's Power is excepted: And lastly, if some of your Superiors should be true to their word or Oath, such as it is and so commenced upon, and explained as before, what Assurance can be given, That such Mushroom Papists as you, shall be always guided by them, and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps, Garnets' or Venners, or that under colour or pretence of meek Nothings, who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God, Rapts and Ecstasies, other Baronian wretches may not intrude, using the same vizor for a while, and when occasion and opportunity shall serve, then cry aloud as some have done, Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth. Then (in earnest) would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholics, that name of names, and most glorious of Titles, as indeed it is but venerated by that great Franciscan with that nick name Roman, and especially Walshes Letter, etc. p. 5. against all which (I hope) Sovereign Notice and Caution will arm itself, and that before it be too late, for (as Plantus) Qui cavet ne decipiatur, vix cavet, cum etiam cavet, quando enim cavisse ratu● est, sape is Cautor captus est.  Pap. 
You talk of Madmen, I think you will show yourself such, I'm glad I am near my journey's end; I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge, and go the back way, I like not your company now, and shall not trust myself with you in the City, lest you discover me.  Phy. 
Truly Sir, I have made as much discovery of you as I desire, and I discover (besides your Religious impertinencies) your Obedience to the King's commands to be just, as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies' wheel, viz. merely to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more: I wish you (again) better informed and so farewell. But Sir, pray stop but a little while, and I'll tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Soldier of the Bishop of Rome, Old Rome, older than your Bishop of old Rome, Caesar, who seeing this Soldier fight with most accurate valour, beset with many Foes, yet forced his way through them all, and escaped through great mires, waters and great difficulties, with only the loss of his shield, ran to the Soldier to embrace him and to encourage and reward his incomparable prowess; the true hearted Soldier, out of Sense to his Duty and Obedience, which by the Law (written in his heart) he owed to his Prince, was so far from being transported with the glory of his Action, or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation, that (with Tears in his eyes) he asked pardon of him, that he had left his Target behind him.  
And Sir, before we part, I have another thing come in my head, and that is, I have a desire to send you a memorable Record, which I have in my Study; it is the Opinion of the Judges, Nobility and Clergy of England, concerning the King's Supreme Ecclesiastical Power, with reference both to Papists and Puritans, pray, how may I direct it to you?  Pap. 
Sir, I shall give it the perusal; you may enclose it in a Paper, directed to Mr. Justin Hid, and leave it at the Booksellers at Gray's-inns Gate.  Phy. 
I shall Sir, and once more Farewell.   

THE RECORD OF 2ᵒ. Febr. 2. JACOBI.  
MEmorandum, that by Command from the King, all the Justices of England, with divers of the Nobility, (viz.) the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer, Viscount Cranborn Principal 
2 Croak 37. Moor 755.  Secretary, the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral, the Earls of Northumberland, Worcester, Devon and Northampton, the Lord Zouch, Burleigh and Knowles, the Chancellor of the Duchy, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishop of London, Popham chief Justice, Bruce Master of the Rolls, Anderson, Gawdy, Walmsley, Femier, Kingsmith, Warberton, Savel, Daniel, Yeluerton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Chamber, where the Lord Chancellor after a long speech, made by him concerning Justices of Peace, and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assize, and a D●●ouse concerning Papists and Puritans, declaring how they both were Disturbers of the State, and that the King intending to suppress them, and to have the Laws put in Execution against them, demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things: First, whether the Deprivation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners, for refusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed, by the last Canons was lawful? Whereto all the Justices answered, That they had conferred thereof before, and held it to be lawful, because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power, which he hath delegated to the Commissioners, whereby they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm: And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen, doth not confer any new Power, but explain and declare the ancient Power: And therefore they held it clear, That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy, and might deprive them if they obeyed not: And so the Commissioners might deprive them; but they could not make any Constitutions without the King; and the divulging of such Ordinances by Proclamation is a most gracious Admonition, and for as much as they have refused to obey, they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners, ex Officio, without Libel, and ●re tenus convocati. Secondly. Whether a Prohibition be grantable against the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party? Whereto they all answered, That the Statute is intended where the Ecclesiastical Judge proceeds ex Officio & ore tenus. Thirdly. Whether it were an offence punishable, and what punishment they deserved, who framed Petitions, and collected a Multitude of hands thereto, to prefer to the King in a public Cause, as the Puritans had done with an Intimation to the King, That if he denied their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented: Whereto all the Justices answered, That it was an Offence finable at Discretion, and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment, for they tended to the raising of Sedition, Rebellion and Discontent among the people. To which resolution all the Lords agreed; And then many of the Lords declared, that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King, how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists, which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the Common-Law, either in the King's Bench, or by the King and his Council, or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star. Chamber: And the Lords severally declared, how the King was discontented with the said false Rumour, and had made but the day before a protestation unto them, that he never intended it; And that he would spend the last drop of bloo● in his Body before he would do it; And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion than wh● he truly professed and maintained, that God would take them o● of the World.  
FINIS.