The Necessity of Abating USURY REASSERTED; In a Reply to the Discourse of Mr. Thomas Manly ENTITLED, Usury at six per Cent. Examined, etc.  
Together with a Familiar and inoffensive way propounded for the future Discovery of sums at Interest, that so they may be charged with their equal share of Public Taxes and Burdens, the long defect whereof hath exceedingly fomented Usury, Embased Land, and much decayed the better half of the Kingdom.  
By Sr. Thomas Culpeper, Jun. Knight.  
LONDON, Printed by T. L. for Christopher Wilkinson, at the Black-boy against S. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet, 1670.   

TO THE READER.  
THe answer lately published to my discourse concerning the Abatement of usury was so far from surprising me, that, indeed, it was no other than I long expected and much desired; Not from any overweening of my own cause, (which yet perhaps would justify some degree of confidence,) But from a real wish, that important truths may be cleared, which they can hardly be, till they have been roundly contradicted and severely scanned: And therefore I am in the first place to thank my plain dealing Adversary for this Opportunity of resuming the Argument, That by due enquiry, either Convincing my Error, or Confirming my judgement, the impartial Reader may be however satisfied.  
When first I saw it, and observed its bulk, I looked at least for some Arguments which had never been offered before, and prepared myself with much curiosity to read it; But finding my Expectation herein disappointed, I could not but take it for a happy Omen, that since the reasons urged for the present fall are either parallel, or certainly more pregnant than those in former times, and the objections against it, little or nothing Varied, the like success would probably attend it.  
It was then with equal tumult and acrimony suggested, that no wisdom could foresee the tragical consequences; That half our cash would be buried under ground, and the rest exported to better profit; That no young beginner could ever hope to borrow five pounds; That we should be beggared merely by the withdrawing of foreign Loans; That eight per cent, was not worth whistling after, nor scarce telling; That Brokage and securities would be intolerable, that laws were but cobwebs to necessity, that Improvement was a brainsick Project; That Orphans and Widows would cry for vengeance; That the Disasters of Riot and sloth were falsely charged upon usury; And that it was frivolous herein to quote the wise, frugal and industrious Hollander.  
Suitable to the Arguments, the Adversaries were then the same, For it was principally opposed by the Dons and Ruffs, the eminent Traders and other sages of that time, who either being (some of them,) at least parcel-usurers, or foreseeing that it would raise that land which they were yet to purchase, or disperse that Benefit of trade which they desired still to monopolise, or disdaining to learn aught from their inferiors, browbeat it as the Project of Bankrupts, derided it as the Frenzy of Novices and State-Empyricks, and thought it sufficiently baffled by their disowning it: Herein seconded by the usurer with his numerous Gang, deeply concerned that so goodly a shrine should be profanely touched, and shrewdly misliking the Precedent: Abetted by many faint-hearted Borrowers, who, mistrusting the event of a good cause, maintained, (as they thought) by Dwarves, but assai'ld by Giants, Either cried quarter; and laid down their Arms, or ran over to the enemy, to the great increase of his forces, and hazard of the enterprise.  
The same Crisis had it in point of time, being moved three years before it took effect; For in the year 1620, my Father wrote his treatise, as appears by the Date of its first edition, and in the year 1623. I take it, the Act passed; Now this interval was spent in eager disputes, and the daily gaining of Proselytes; (wherein, by the way, it is observable, that, for aught appears, that age was not yet brave enough to assert even the height of public usury in Print,) For being first propounded by a few Country Gentlemen and Merchants, (for the smallness of their party and boldness of their assertions then censured as fanatics in trade,) in that space of time, it won in effect all true lovers of their Country, and convinced far the major part of unbrassed Auditors: These Circumstances I hold it pertinent enough for me to relate, as I received them by conversation with my deceased Father, or collected them from his Treatises, partly to show how difficult it is to dislodge a potent Oppressor, partly to satisfy the present Assertors of this Argument, that they ought not to despair, though they meet with greater hardships than have yet encountered them, but rather assuredly promise themselves, That cause must and will at length prevail, which hath not hitherto been opposed but by flouts and frowns.  
In the Reading of Mr. Manlies' answer, I find exception taken both at my frequent mention of the term usurer, and at divers blunt expressions upon that subject; But I hope it may easily be salved with this candid distinction of a rank or common usurer, and a Lender upon usury; It is the trade which I abhor, not the bare practice; Common usurers I defy, as the scandals of the Church, and Cankers of the State; Lender's upon usury I partly excuse, knowing many of them to be persons truly conscientious, and such, as were they convinced of the oppression, would not only desist but restore: yet even these I cannot but admonish seriously to consider, whether such practice have any better ground to support it, then general Custom, and seeming Convenience, Countenanced by the Pulpits silence, and whether in the purpose of humane laws, impunity come not far short of right: To such as yet further expostulate my meaning, I answer with a late eminent Statesman in the like case, whosoever feels himself concerned, him I mean; or with a friend of mine, who being asked where the usurer dwelled, protested he knew not, and hoped there was no such man.  
Two capital errors in my former Treatise I must acknowledge, but withal excuse; The first, that I did not previously clear this great problem, that the abatement of usury hath a natural and Mathematical Energy to raise Land, and augment Trade; For that being granted, all the advantages propounded had been sufficiently proved by but naming them; Whereas, for want of this groundwork the foundation seemed too sleight for the building, and my ensuing assertions to unprepared Readers appeared no better than bold presumptions, like the imposing of Authority without first proving it authentic: The second, that charged our present sufferings wholly, (or at least principally,) upon the rate of usury, and not as well upon our long unequal burdens, which perhaps have had a greater share in the Embasing of land then even usury itself, and without which usury would now much less have needed reducing: To the first, I answer, That in truth I could not foresee the denial of that maxim, which so immediately refers to the infallible rule of three in Arithmetic, hath been ever granted, and never till now questioned by the usurer himself, And is, by way of admittance, solemnly declared, not only by that notable statute 21. Jacobi, but even by an Act of this present Parliament: To the second, That I rather chose frequently to glance, as it were, upon those unequal pressures, than lay the main stress upon them, if I could avoid it, Partly from my reverence to the Authority imposing them, Partly from my foresight of an answer, which obliging me, in my own defence, to produce them as manifest causes of the fall of Land and Rents, will, I hope, absolve me for it.  
For brevity's sake, I have chosen to reply by way of Dialogue, having ever observed that in such familiar discourses, doubtful matters are best explained; Glosses and sophisms prevented, and tedious circumlocutions avoided, which at best signify somewhat to style and form, but nothing to sense: Only for an Antidote to my former omission, I shall first ground my future Arguments concerning Land, upon the impartial narrative of our public burdens, for forty years past, here ensuing.   

A summary Account of our Public Taxes and Burdens, and how they have been born for forty years past.  
TO clear my Antithesis of Land and Usury, I shall distinguish the time into three Stages or Periods, 1. Before the War, 2. During the War, 3. After the War.  
1. Before the War, It hath ever been the known grievance of this Kingdom, that all the hardships of the Common wealth were born by Land: Our Landlords only exposed to be Lords and Deputy Lieutenants, Sheriffs, Commanders in the Militia, Justices of the Peace, Jurymen, with divers other chargeable employments general and Parochial; Our Tenants to be Constables, Bosholders, Surveyors, Collectors, etc. Pressed to the War, and charged even in Peace; Both of them, in their degrees, obliged to Residence and Hospitality, subject to payment of Tithes, maintenance of the Poor, employment of Labourers at certain cost, but uncertain profit, Repairing of Churches, Mills, Bridges, Highways, Sewers, etc. Rarely pretending to matters of much advantage: Neither is it a new Complaint, That usury hath always skulked and shifted like the running Gout, and like a Fairy or Goblin, which tortures and scares without ever appearing; That it was to the Commonwealth, at best, like a lame leg, useless, deceitful, and troublesome; Profitable only to itself; Craftily avoiding all charges and Duties, how just and Equal soever, but watching all the Advantages of wealth and leisure for gainful Offices and penny worths: Tithe he never paid, I will not swear he never received it, since the first fall of Interest, in doubtful times he is presently upon the Wing, And if you do but talk reason to him, threatens to lurch or leave you; For the world is his Country, and perhaps in six month's time, he can be as good Dutch or French, as ever he was Englishman, being now, at the best, but a Denizen: With great reason therefore my father, in his second Treatise, even then inferred, that since the usurer paid little to subsidies, nothing to fifteen, little to the poor man's box, repaired nor built no Churches, set no Labourers at work for the good of the Commonwealth, employed none but Scriveners and Brokers, and those at the charge of the Borrower, no man needed doubt, but there would be enough of the Occupation, though money were brought to five, (he might now have said to three,) in the hundred.  
2. During the War, most remarkable it is, how generally and fatally the Land was engaged, most of it actively in raising of Troops and Regiments, for the assistance and support of the parties contending, towards which the Landlords, as their persuasions led them, not only staked and pawned their own Estates, but procured their neighbours and tenants to embark with them; all of it passively, by Plunder, Freequarter, Contribution, and other exactions so insupportable, that an indifferent sum was then worth a fair Lordship, Taxes being commonly in surplusage to Rents, and stock on all sides looked upon as lawful prize, so as Landlords were ruined by hundreds, and Tenants by thousands; Not to mention the irreparable wastes committed by fire and other warlike violences. The usurer, in the mean time, felt none of these Earth quakes, but (like a devout Hermit in his Cell,) retired to his Beads, little concerned in secular or sublunary affairs, unless it were in the special case of an Assumpsit or single band: We heard little of his Chivalry, and less of his Martyrdom: some have been reported by the black art to be stick-free, and others shot-free; The usurer, in the late times, was both.  
3. After the War, it is but too fresh in our memories, what grievous Pressures have ever since lain upon the Land; For the clear discovery whereof, I shall consider it under the fourfold Capacity of Compounder, Owner, Farmer, and Borrower: The Compounder, (of which quality were perhaps our most and greatest Landlords,) upon payment of two years complete revenue for a Fine, the lowest rate I have heard of, (debts being rarely considered,) was graciously restored to his house empty and half ruined, to his Land stripped of Wood and Timber, ill tenanted and unfenced, his Meadows perhaps broken up, his Plantations, Hop-grounds, Nurseries, etc. at best neglected; Nor was he thus dismissed, but exposed to the repairing of all pretended trespasses by him avoidable committed in the War; Still molested, and forced, (as the least of evils in appearance, though in consequence perhaps the greatest,) by residing in London, to shelter himself from some ill neighbourhood. The owner, besides many other ruinous losses, hath for above twenty years past, commumbus annis, in Land-taxes, Military charges, and the increase of Parochial duties, paid at least one fourth part of his yearly income strictly valued. without the least consideration of fall or loss of Rents, Repairs and divers other incident defalcations. The Farmer having been impoverished by free quarter, and owing, (at least in part,) for his stock, hath been, and still is, by the like sufferings, together with his growing debts, kept so low, that it is great pity to see how painfully and innocently he cheats himself by holding on the Farm, being neither able profitably to stock, nor afford it ordinary and necessary amendment, nor keep his grain for tolerable Market: The Borrower, if compounder, and in debt before the War, (as divers were,) must needs be desperate; It could then be no otherwise with him then thus, take all, and pay the Baker; For what estate almost could buoy up against such a Fine, with many years' loss of income, and growth of Interest at eight per Cent? But though neither compounder, nor formerly in debt, can he well be imagined a clear man, having lived so long in effect upon the main? And then let us take a survey of his condition; Borrow he could not then, without excessive Brokage, for the Glut of Compounders had strangely improved Extortion, besides the Circumstantial mischiefs and traps of chargeable attendance, conveyance, suretyships, counter-securities, and trusts, which have furnished us with suits and Encumbrances scarce to be cleared in an Age, and which, without fall of Interest, may amount to a reasonable Land-tax, twenty, (perhaps forty) years hence; sell he could not in due time, but to the loss of almost half his Inheritance, so much was Land embased by the Miseries of the War, multitude of sellers, and Land-taxes: subsist without selling long he could not, how ever ought not, for Taxes and Interest money, (like heavy bruises meeting with foul humours,) would soon gangreen: All this while, the moneyed man eat the fat of the Land, being a kind of Lord-Dane in every household; The common rate of Interest, with Choice of security real or Personal, (for borrowers were forced to help one another with joint and mutual suretyships,) came clear to him, for the Acceptance whereof he was even treated as a Benefactor; But the common Usurer, (being generally his own Broker, like Bawd and Courtesan,) was double greased; He swaggered like the Lord of a great Manor, the Demeans whereof are holden by Villeinage, having the very Carcases of his Betters, as it were, in his clutches: His harvest lasted many years, betwixt pernicious Loans and Seizures, Dog-cheap pennyworths of goods, and half-purchases of Lands both private and public: For like a Raven, he feasts upon Carrion, and thrives by the calamities of his Country.  
I have claimed the Losers Privilege in the blunt Narrative of these plain truths, (irksome indeed to the memory, but in use medecinal) partly to silence their un reasonable clamour, who most absurdly impute our present damp of Land, to the reducing of Interest, chiefly to lay open, even to vulgar Capacities, the Original and Groundwork of our present Maladies, so industriously palliated by most of those that procured, so unhappily mistaken or slighted by many that feel it, whom I daily hear lamenting the hardship of the times, but withal imputing it to causes, either scandalous to Authority, or in themselves so frivolous, as one would blush to mention, as if they should tell me, we are sick for want of health, idle for want of business, and insolvent for want of money: These I would willingly acquaint, what evil Spirits haunt them, and what familiar spells may drive them away; For to me it seems most evident, That the disproportion of Usury to trade, but principally to Rents, not timely observed and Redressed, together with the advantage constantly taken by Usurers to decline all Public Burdens, (especially in civil Broils, after them,) hath and, since our current practice of Usury, made greater havoc of noble Families, hopeful Traders, and honest Farmers, than all other Oppressions and Casualties, within that time, summed up together.  
For the better applying of this History to my present Argument, give me leave to propound these following Queries.  
Doth not public welfare mainly depend on the avoiding of oppression by equality of Taxes?  
Ought not every one that hath a certain Revenue to contribute his share to the common Burdens of his Country, is it not a condition reasonably annexed to Property?  
Supposing Interest of money to be lawful Rent, (as it pretends,) and admitting it the speediest, clearest, and securest income, (as doubtless it is,) ought it not, even in that respect, to be most strictly charged?  
Are not sums of money at Usury, goods, chattels, indeed the principal ones, were they not then comprehended in all our late laws for Taxes, even those of the late Usurpers?  
Were they not, in some of our latest Acts, since his Majesty's return, particularly charged by name?  
Admitting it assault to steal Customs and Excise, is it not at least equivalent in the lender upon Usury to decline Taxes imposed by one and the same Authority?  
Is not the Prejudice to King and Kingdom finally as great, but the immediate wrong to neighbours palpably greater?  
Hath not the increase of our Poor, Military Burdens, and Farmer's Taxes, for twenty years past, embased Farms at least ten per Cent. in Value?  
Have not the like pressures more immediately cost the Landlord at least fifteen per Cent. of his yearly income, and what hath the Usurer contributed to any of them?  
Hath not every Purchaser of late years, by reason of their long Prescription, purchased with allowance for them, in the nature of Quitrents clogging inheritance?  
Hath not then every necessitous Seller clearly sacrificed the fourth part of his Estate to his exigence, and have not Purchasers thriven to the same proportion by their neighbour's Misery, and so made double Benefit of their own wrong?  
Have not the hopes of Landlords and doubts of Tenants concerning the end or ease of Taxes justly hindered the letting of good leases, and multiplied Tenancies at will, to the manifest ruin of Farms, and Public detriment, but advantage of lurching Purchasers?  
Have not the like hopes suspended many sellers upon Exigence to their greater Ruin, and the contrary doubts so amused fair Purchasers, that they knew not what justly to offer?  
Have not borrowing Landlords paid all this while six per Cent. indeed to the Usurer, but otherwise, (considering the Clog of their inheritances,) much more than double that rate; and have not Lender's, in effect, received near two per Cent. overplus, which, in all equity, they should have paid to the Public?  
Will not the Usurer, without due caution always, serve us with the same sauce in all future Broils, or extraordinary Levies?  
May not this Kingdom be presumed still to feel the effects of the late civil War, As men do sometimes old Bruises or the sins of their youth very long after?  
Admitting Land-taxes should cease, may not the continuance (perhaps increase,) of other Burdens, especially the Poor, without effectual redress, be sufficient to perpetuate the Embasement of our Farms, now so impoverished?  
Will any man now marvel at the Deadness, and not rather at the quickness of our Lands and Markets?  
Must we not impute this suspension of our utter ruin to our intermediate growth of trade by our last fall of Usury, and its exemption from new Clogs?  
May not an Indifferent Charity suppose, that the Landlord may be now encumbered, and Tenant impoverished, without rank Prodigality?  
Doth not even six per Cent. grievously by't the Land, it being now Notorious, That (all things computed) Rents in the Country do not generally answer three?  
Can the Borrower ever hope, without abatement of Usury, to clear himself, but to half Ruin in sale, or extreme mischief by delay, may not the Usurer, at his pleasure, relieve himself, perhaps with advantage, by purchasing in time?  
Can the Retrenching of Usury, which by visible experience hath always proved successful, be ever so just and necessary, as to Farmers generally drooping, and a Gentry encumbered by Loyal sufferings?  
Is not the improvement of Land, and support of Gentry far more considerable to his Majesty's service, than any pretence of Usurers can be?  
If our Taxes and Burdens had been equally born, must not the due Rate of Land have been maintained, to at least 24. years' Purchase?  
If land could have escaped all these Burdens, and money born them, without consideration of desperate and uncertain debts, (as surely little we have had of encumbrances or fayler of Rents.) What would probably have been the Purchase of Land?  
If all our Payments had been charged upon Customs and foreign Imposts (money and Land being both exempted,) what would have been our Account of Trade?  
May it not yet be seasonable, (because profitable, and most just,) to expose money at Interest to public Taxes and Duties?  
If Creditors at Interest be Obliged, at their Peril, to Tax themselves, so as by their declining it, they be construed to disown their Principal, and forfeit it, either wholly to the Borrower, or half to the King, may not this probably be effected, without either the temptation of Perjury, or prejudice of Informing? Where were the Inconvenience?  
Were not this, Concurrent with the fall of Usury, a likely way speedily to raise the value of Land, for want of which only the Country now droops?  
I shall now proceed in my Reply to Mr. Manly by Questions and Propositions naturally arising from his own words, or sense, for brevity's sake, collected with the same fidelity; which I would desire him, or any other, hereafter to use towards me.   

THE PREFACE.  T. M. 
IS not the hiring of money, (seeing it cannot be borrowed for God's sake,) as necessary for the well-being of mankind, as hiring of Land or houses?  T. C. 
Divines will first tell you, your very Hypothesis is stark naught, De jure, I mean, though de facto it be too true; and then withal they will direct you to wholesomer expedients for traffic, on all sides, than hiring of money, viz. Trading with our own stocks, honest Partnership, and discreet Factorage: besides, as to the difference of Land and money, they will, (amongst other things) inform you, That your Letting of money at the same price to all Borrowers, looks somewhat like the expecting an equal Rent for all Lands by the Acre, without examining their Quality, situation, etc. To vary is impracticable, and not limit the Rate, hath been found by experience, in uncharitable times, the highway to Jewish extortion.  T. M. 
Do you not lay an unreasonable stress upon the Interest paid by his Majesty for moneys Borrowed in the late War?  T. C. 
My meaning was the same with yours, (though not asserted with the like confidence and Authority,) viz. That his Majesty gave excessive Rates, now this, say I, happened through his not commanding money, as the States did, the reason whereof I clearly refer to the plenty and security attending low Interest.  T. M. 
Doth not the frugal Hollander grow rich with the gains of seven or eight per Cent. whilst fifteen per Cent. will not support our Expensive Traders?  T. C. 
Five or six, I doubt, is generally fair for them, ours, I suppose, may thank you for it; They would fain persuade the Usurer either to try himself, or be their Ensurer; But, it seems, he desires none of their Eggs for his money, for he lovingly thanks them, and had rather they should be his.  T. M. 
I desire the Reader to take notice, That all Europe exceeds us in the Rates of Usury, the States of Holland, and some Commonwealths of Italy only excepted? And some or all of these are unrestrained by their laws, and at liberty to take as much for Interest as they can get.  T. C. 
We differ partly in fact, but more in the Issue by you put; For laws may not only be proper but necessary in a Kingdom grievously encumbered by civil War, and that hath so much good Land for its fund; When, in Commonwealths of unequal and slender territory, free from exigents, possessed of trade, and chiefly founded in it; current Security, with good Policies, may both supply the want of them, and perhaps better effect their design: As for Rates, I think it were happy, if ours were the lowest.  T. M. 
I say, (speaking as a man,) 'tis no wrong to the Commonwealth, If men of Estates drink, drab, live profusely, and die Beggars, so long as every penny comes to the Natives, etc.  T. C. 
I say (speaking as an Englishman,) Interest Reipublicae, nequis male utatur suis: This is indeed, a rare doctrine for Usurers, but baneful to the Commonwealth; such a vermin, as you describe, it no more wants, than it doth the Usurer himself, or than the Farmer, in a cheap time, doth Rats and mice, or lazy and disorderly hinds to devour his fruits; For so necessity, (the mother of Encumbrance, and Grandam of Extortion would both fatally embase our Lands, and poison our trade with Bankrupts; besides he is a scabby sheep and infects the Flock; I now leave the Reader to judge, who speaks most in favour of Luxury, you or I; Cato or Seneca, I presume, taught you no such lewd and vulgar Politics.  T. M. 
Well then! A Tax we must have, be it only to dispose Authority to subdue Interest, etc.  T. C. 
Me thinks, Sir, we are already half agreed; The King's debts, I presume, you would have paid, and his real occasions supplied, Land-taxes, it seems, you abborre as much as I, and I trust, you wish so well to trade, as you would not have that bear all our Burdens; What then remains, but that our future levies be upon money at Interest? If you please then, and public occasions require it, (as 'tis like they may) monytaxes let them be: Let two or three per Cent. be charged upon all Interest money for seven years, and let Usurers always afterwards be double Taxed like Aliens, as, in effect, they are, and say you are gently dealt with: But four per Cent. with an effectual provision for the future taxing of money its due share, seems to be the cleanlier way.  T. M. 
Is not this gratifying the Borrower with a vengeance for one years' payment to eternity, out of an honest Creditors Purse?  T. C. 
How honest I know not, I am sure, of late we have tasted little of his Justice; Let me again acquaint him, that admitting even his fairest pretence, and hardest measure, I suppose, it were scarce a Rowland for his Oliver, but our soundest Divines, I doubt, will tell you, you mistake your vice for your Estate.  T. M. 
Who laid this Excise, as you term it, upon your Land, the Borrower, or the Usurer? He swears, he sought not for the Gentleman or trader, he had something else to do with his money, etc.  T. C. 
I could answer you perhaps without just exception, it was the Rebel and the Usurer betwixt them; But, pray Sir, is not this as good a plea for the highest extortions as for common Interest? My surly host, when I question his Reckoning, may as well reply, who sent for you? The Prostitute, having picked her lover's purse, may as well ask him, who solicited you? I durst likewise swear, (but that I doubt a Borrowers Oath may not be taken without a voucher, since his Band I find will not pass without two or three sureties,) The Usurer would never lend for pure good nature or Importunity, or if he thought he could otherwise deal to better effects; And therefore I have a little curiosity to know, what that something else was, For, if it were a purchase, (though a Lurching one,) beshrew those, say I, whoever they were, that diverted him.  T. M. 
What would you have him do? Let his neighbour sink? Go to prison? etc.  T. C. 
Such a deliverance or Jubilee as this had Esop's horse, protected from the stag, but ridden to death by the man; I'll tell you, what I would have him do, not give his friend Poison for Physic, Or, at best, cold water in a Calenture; What then? Why lend him money grais, or at a tolerable and saving Rate, to be sure, what ever it be: But he who now premises that Usury is charity, may shortly, I doubt concluded, that gain is Godliness.  T. M. 
He kept his money by him these six months to lend, etc.  T. C. 
'Twas his own folly, he should once for all, (according to your discreet advertisement Page 44,) have fairly laid it out upon Land, and for ever prevented the like loss; But, it seems he knows better what to do, than you or I can direct him.  T. M. 
He lends it to a man, that gains fifteen per Cent. (for so much I believe all traders do,) Is it not reasonable the lender should have at least one half thereof? etc.  T. C. 
Nay, if once you come to reason, you are gone, stick to your opus and usus, if you be wise; For what if he lend it to a man who loses fifteen per Cent. (so much, I doubt, some traders do,) Is it not then reasonable the lender should bear one half of the loss, since he looked for one half of the Gain? I marvel, Sir, I should need, now to tell you, that trading at Interest is a deceitful Lottery, consisting of blanks without number for a few great lots, an errand Quack, that proclaims his cures, but conceals his murders; A few Field-Officers it hath, who by chance surviving, and carrying away the fruit and glory of the whole service, are celebrated for their Exploits; And well they may, for they are almost as strange as Knight-Errandry; But common Soldiers are slain by thousands and forgotten; My comfort is, that I hope by this time, our Merchants, and Usurers too so well perceive it, that the one is not forward to trust, nor the other eager to be trusted; And that the blessing of foreign Loans hath quite forsaken us; Otherwise, it would ask no conjuring to read the destiny of our Trade.  T. M. 
No man will keep money by him to lend for so small a Praemium as four per Cent. which will hardly reward selling in and out, and make good the Brass money, much less answer the hazard of lending, which is so considerable, in this deceitful age, that I persuade myself, the Insurance Office would demand above 30 s. per 100 to secure all the money lent on security in England.  T. C. 
Tother Angel, and 'tis done: There is now no more, for aught I see, betwixt your hazard and our Insurance, troth, be good natured, and do not stand for a trifle: But surely, Sir, you speak at a great Rate; Tell Mr. Usurer from me, his poor Bailiff the Gentleman, (as you rightly term him,) is content with half the salary, sometimes with a bit and a knock from his Benefactor, and that his worship puts me in mind of some great goodfellows, who were so long accustomed to swill in Spirits, Brandy, Sack, Metheglin, Northdown, and Mum, as household Beer would not down with them, it was but Rock-water, even Cider they took but for Clarified whey: But our hope is malt will shortly rise, and then we must brew smaller for him then of late we have done; Yet even at four per Cent. I doubt, he will far but too well; Better, I am sure for the present, than many who better deserve: As for his hazards, he ensures himself with a witness; Nor do I suppose, he desires to lose so sweet a pretence. However, if at any time he be bitten, he is but paid in his own coin, for not purchasing fairly, in stead of lending shrewdly, and lying in ambush, as he doth, for lurching Pennyworths.  T. M. 
I am yet to learn, what puts our Gentry upon considerable Borrowing, except such things as I am not willing to record, since not one in seven borrows to advance any Laudable improvement.  T. C. 
Our late Usurpers could better resolve you then I, unless you will take my Preface in part of payment, but in truth, the question comes strangely from you in this place; who tell us but a Page or two before, of Marrying Daughters, and going to Prison; good Sir, look about, or you will lose yourself in the wood.  T. M. 
There is another sort of men, (Gentlemen not in debt,) concerned in this Conditional Tax, who are not to expect present advantage by subduing Interest, but are to solace themselves with an assurance of future improvement of their inheritances in value, as certain as if it were in their Purses, saith my Discourser, etc.  T. C. 
I say so indeed, and I doubt not but most of those Gentleman will believe me, for the thing is manifest both as to the Purchase and Rents of Land; For Purchase, the Resemblance of Land and money to two Buckets was never questioned till now; And Rents must needs be governed by the very same Maxims with the Land itself and Trade, the farmer being no other than a Country Merchant, and, with your Patience, I shall offer you divers familiar instances to prove, the Tenant hath equal benefit in the fall of Usury with his Landlord, his stock will be so much cheaper to him, his ordinary yet necessary Amendments, Fences, Repairs, etc. will be cheaper, he may the better afford to sell at common and low markets, or wait for higher, and, upon the Encouragement of a long and good lease, he (but much more the owner) will be enabled to venture on Improvements chargeable and expectant, the profit whereof will vastly accrue not to himself only, but the Commonwealth, viz. Building, Planting, Enclosing, draining, Flooding, Marling, etc. These are so obvious, as I cannot but admire the vulgar capacities of some, who in discourse on this subject are apt to say, Alas! What is it to me, that neither lend nor borrow? But say I, do you neither hire nor let? Neither sell nor buy? Neither build nor repair? Neither plant nor enclose? Neither wear nor cloth Neither travel nor sojourn? Neither entertain nor eat? Which way soever you turn, six per Cent. stairs in your face; You meet him on the Road and sup with him at your Inn; His intruding you cannot avoid, yet shun, if you can, his acquaintance; And in case you design to build a Church or Chappel, or found an Hospital, or plant a Colony, or enlarge a Navigation, or bravely serve your Prince, or worthily oblige your friend, or seasonably assist your neighbour, or encourage Manufacture, or advance learning, or maintain hospitality, or uphold your degree, or improve your Estate, or adorn your mansion, or enclose your Park, or complete your library, or liberally breed your Son, or well match your Daughter, or any way exemplify your Christian Profession, public Spirit, or private conduct, to the Purchasing of Brass or Marble, nay to the bare rescuing your name even from present oblivion, consult him not, for you will find him sacrilegious, selfish, difficult and costly; But let me freely recommend to your four per Cent. for besides his fidelity and dispatch, he may chance in the upshot, (all things computed,) save you more than half in half.  T. M. 
But how will this Raise a Farm now 100 l. per annum to 130 l. in the future? etc.  T. C. 
Me thinks the Usurer, disclaiming good works, might have a little more faith, and not argue so sceptically and perversely since nothing seems clearer, then that what you take from Interest, you give to Land and stock; Those two Rents being all along the same Buckets; But if he will yet suspect his reason, let him hearken to great Authority, viz. the Stat. 21. jacobi, which declares its main drift to be the upholding of Rents, and encouragement of tillage, then decaying; The Act of this present Parliament, which recites, that by notable experience, improvements had ensued; And the Edict of that wife King; Henry the fourth of France, Anno 1601. Recording the very same design.  T. M. 
But our happiness is, we have a third sort of Landlords, (whom you did not please to think on,) and, I hope one third part of the Landlords in England, at least in weight, who are so far from being in debt, that, by happy conduct, they are Masters of considerable sums, and that upon Usury; Now to deal alike with the Landlord Lender and Land-lord-Borrower is monstrous unequal.  T. C. 
Excellent news, I profess! That we have so many weighty Landlords; Seriously I have not had the honour to know many of these worthies, or weighty Gentlemen; But I the less marvel, having generally conversed with Royalists; Yet if such Gentlemen there be, (which upon your credit I shall admit, let them know, I desire their Acquaintance, not to trouble them with the impertinency of getting in the Shire what they lose in the Hundred; but purely to tell them this story from my deceased father's mouth; When he went to Oxford in 1642. he owed a considerable sum at 8 percent to a certain Creditor of Principles different from him, (whom he ever mentioned with Respect,) at their meeting in 1647. My Father told him, he hoped for some abatement of Interest, and forbearance of the principal, in regard of the fine he was then to pay; His answer was, Sir, take your own time for payment, as for Interest, God forbid, I should require any when you had no Rents, nor could my father prevail with him to take any part of it: A rare pattern for Conscientious lender's, and a lively decision of our present argument: Now by the happy conduct of these weighty Landlords, I understand their dextrous shifting of public Duties, and otherwise making hay while the Sun shined; If they can, at length, be (in some small measure) fairly met with, let King Adonibezek acquaint them with the Justice of it.  T. M. 
I humbly conceive, it were much better to keep up Usury, and find out a way like that of a Register, (so long and Passionately desired,) which at once might enable the solvent Gentleman to borrow easily, (which now he cannot do,) on all occasions reasonably secure the money lent, affright men from running greatly into debt, lest their nakedness appear, prevent ten thousand frauds, and as many law suits, defer none but insolvent and ill-minded men, and direct the State, upon all emergencies to lay impositions on it equal to Land-taxes.  
I humbly perceive, Usury is your noli me tangere; Well, however, I am glad to find you grant equal taxing just, it savours of some ingenuity still, though, I doubt, you may think it will not be in your time, and that you are safe enough at your close guard: As for a Register, it hath indeed been long desired, and long, I fear, yet may be, at least, ere it operate, considering the difficulties of agreeing, settling, and purging it: This six per Cent. well knows, and therefore, as his last stake, drives the argument to that issue, just in the Welshmans Rhetoric, Let her but alone, till that daycomes; We, on the other side, desire a Register, (as surely it is chiefly our Interest,) far more sincerely than he, and wish no time were lost, that at least the next age may reap the fruit of it; But we hope our Redress needs no such long Prorogation, for he that must dine late, wants a good breakfast, and we suppose some fall of Usury, in our involved condition, to be the necessary Harbinger or Pioneer to an effectual Register, judging it more likely and proper to begin with the Egg, than the Hen.  
By the way, I cannot but with trouble reflect, that Land and Trade should so conspire to play the Usurer's game against themselves, as by their discord all along they have done; The trader crying, tax Land, in God's name, for that will bear it, trade cannot; And the Landlord of late, spare Land, for God's sake, it hath already been taxed to death; Tax now our superfluous trade, and therein our luxury; Giving, it seems, the Usurer over to his Reprobate sense, and therefore freely permitting him to thrive in this World; But little, in the mean time, considering, that tillage and traffic lay in one belly the Earth, sail in one bottom upon the Sea, and fear one Pirate or vermin, the Usurer, like a sly makebate circumventing, and secretly no doubt deriding them, withal applauding his own happy conduct, (as my Author hath it:) For as when thiefs disagree, true men recover their goods, so whilst honest men quarrel, Pockets are the more securely picked.  
T. M. Do you really belieué, that abatement of Usury will raise the Purchase and Revenue of Land, and perform such wonderful feats?  T. C. 
I have heard of divers great Politicians, and some, in my dealings, I have met with, who being a little thick of hearing, kept notwithstanding one ear constantly open to good tidings, and another shut to bad: Near of kin to these is our Usurer; No man so nimble in apprehending, so subtle in calculating profit as he; But if any thing be offered cross to his Purpose, he counterfeits himself a changeling; Poor man! I dare say, he cannot tell ten: At this close lock we have him all along: If he find purchasing commonly gainful, in three month's time he is our Landlord, however, if he meet with a lurching Penny worth, he snaps it; He than looks big and is a man of business, he would have you know; But if times be doubtful, taxes high, and Rents falling, he is then a poor Orphan, a silly Cock-nay, not versed in Country affairs; If trade be in a thriving way, and yield above his rate of Usury, (which he Critically observes and understands as well as most that drive it, for there is not a better Weathercock, to tell us where the wind sits,) being naturally shrewd, and pensive: a rare Accountant, and by conversation, at least, no stranger to those affairs, he plies the Exchange, examines the Rates of Impost, soon acquaints himself with Prices and Markets, and is as brisk as the best: But finding little to be got, but hazard, and that, all things considered, he may repose himself more profitably upon his Downbed of Interest, he is then wholly defective in business of that kind, his Friends undid him by not giving him more learning, or putting him early out to Apprentice; Or he is a crazy old man, weary of the World, glad to retire, and beginning to dote: Were it not for this imposture of affected impotency, how could men the acurest and exactest judges of advantage in their generation, at this time of the day, so peremptorily deny the raising of Land by the fall of Usury; a Problem full of self Conviction, compelling assent to the very mention of it, and which themselves, I dare say, have formerly granted a hundred times over: But truly here is the Intrigue, before the Usurer had dived into the bottom of the Argument, and spied the vast invincible consequences of it, not only in the Various improvements of Land, but in their immediate affinity to those of trade, (and one would marvel so sharp a nostril should not sooner smell so strong a scent,) his common Reflections, were these, yes indeed, this is good for you in the Country, but it will undo us Citizens; You Gentlemen care not what becomes of trade, so your Lands rise; Now you would fain be raising your Rents again, and racking your Tenants to maintain your Prodigality: These and divers other unwary Confessions have I myself, and I dare say most that read this Page heard from some even of those who now sing another note; For finding themselves, by their own admission, utterly gravelled, and unable to gainsay the necessary great and good effects of raising Land, they soon swallowed their own spittle, and now the Cry is, 'tis absurd thus to argue against Experience; We utterly deny it, prove it if you can; Well then, I am ready to prove it, (which yet I supposed I should never have been driven to,) and not only prove, but in good measure demonstrate it, if at least Arguments of this nature be capable of such evidence.  
Purchasing is the Exchanging of money for Land to a supposed equal Value, the proper measure whereof is Yearly income or Revenue; He than that purchases according to Rule, compares the income of his money which he quits, with the Revenue of his Land which he acquires, and thereby Examines his gain or loss: Now, in regard of the dignity and stability of Land, it hath always had, caeteris paribus, some pre-eminence allowed it in the Balance, to a fourth or third part, perhaps more in very clear times, so as six Pounds per Annum good Rents were counted of equal intrinsical value to eight or nine Pounds per Annum Interest; He than that would lay out a hundred Pounds upon a Purchase, (money being at six per Cent.) expected Land to the Yearly value of four Pound, or at most four Pounds and ten shillings, which is about four and twenty years' Purchase, whereas, (money being at four per Cent.) less than three Pounds per Annum becomes his Due, which is about six and thirty years' Purchase: This estimate, I dare maintain, must generally hold, if there be certainty in the rules of proportion; And that it doth so, appears even in our present case, which I take for a Pregnant and marvellous instance, considering the number and extremity of sellers; For supposing Land now to carry eighteen years' purchase, (as good Rents have all along done,) and abating a fourth part for the Rend charges of public Duties, by Purchasers cruelly defalked; the present purchase is just reconciled to my presumed Rate: As for Rents, I must again mind you, of five years actual War, five years' Anarchy, ten years' Usurpation, and above twenty years unequal burdens, sufficient, one would think, much more to have impoverished our Farmers, and embased our Farms.  
But as for the Feats and projects which you so deride, I again affirm, they are not Monstrous, but most natural, even so familiar? That every Country, almost every year presents us with notable Patterns of them; Yourself have instanced in some which may only serve for a Relish of many incomparably more important: Do but cast your eye upon our Lands now adjacent to good Towns, and observe what the industry of man, meanly and but accidentally encouraged hath there effected; And then, (if you can) deny, that a perfect Enablement, and withal prudent compulsion of the same Industry, doubled and redoubled, would, through the necessary progress of improvement, make indeed a strange and happy Metamorphosis; Even by planting Cities, in time, where are now scarce hamlets, and multiplying Towns almost to the number of our Parishes; Since God, who sends meat for our mouths doth likewise ever send mouths for our meat, and that not by Miracle in our vulgar Account, but the ordinary success of just laws, and prudent Endeavours; For sure there is nothing that so fatally and universally wastes and depopulates as Usury, if once it grow rank and rampant; No not War or Pestilence itself, which have always had their periods, intermissions and Exemptions; Whereas this, like a general and perpetual contagion and secret canker, supplants the present Age, and undermines Posterity; For who, that hath common sense, observes not, that dark and drooping times, (the fruitful harvest of our silversmiths,) drive out natives, and keep out strangers, cut off the thread of life untimely with want, care, anguish, and disorder, oblige even the richer sort, (as it were in their own defence,) to decline or defer marriage, and compel the poorer, at best to neglect, but shrewdly tempt them even to expose their Children? And who may not easily thence conclude, that the flourishing of trade and tillage, (which to our worms and weeds is a most nipping frost,) endears any Country to its people, allures foreigners, prolongs lives, and makes posterity even the Tenants welcomest stock, but the Landlords only treasure and Jewels?  T. M. 
Where is now the treasure of the Nation, lying idle, locked up in Miser's chests? Or if it be now employed at six per Cent. it can be but employed, reduce Interest to what you please.  T. C. 
Indeed a rare groundwork for the Raising of Interest to forty or fifty per Cent. for, it seems, you make no difference betwixt the general Employment of our stock to profit or loss: My father, I take it, in his first Treatise, hath laid down a sounder Maxim, viz. that where Particulars thrive not, the Commonwealth is seldom greatly advanced.  T. M. 
Will our increase oblige foreigners to sit still, and take their food and Raiment of our providing, granting it cheap.  T. C. 
Truly in many things, it is like, it may oblige divers of them, as the Cheapness of Polish corn hoarded by the Dutch too oft obliges us to buy it at great rates in dear years; But I presume, there are, amongst others, two pregnant and mighty instances, wherein a cheap growth, (justified by large crops, and flourishing improvements,) manifestly conduces to great Vent, viz. the Foundation of Manufacture, and Victualling of Ships.  T. M. 
'Tis well known, most of our Lands are upon their best improvements, etc.  T. C. 
'tis better known, that you impose herein a shameful mistake; For visibly the better half of them are still common Fields, and perhaps near a quarter commons or wastes.  T. M. 
I would appeal to the impartial and industrious, whether six per Cent. hath discouraged improvements, or whether they have nor rather feared a cheap year, want of Vent, etc.  T. C. 
I would appeal to common sense, whether six per Cent. in name, but at least twelve in effect as to the Land, computing our unequal Burdens, did not, and must not necessarily produce this want of Vent, by impoverishing Tenants, disabling them to wait for good Markets, and so leaving them to the buyers courtesy.  T. M. 
We have vast quantities of Fruit in England, and more we might have, without reducing Usury, would our Gallants spend more of their time and money upon laudable improvements in the Country, instead of wasting so much in London.  T. C. 
Store, saith the old Proverb, is no sore; But any thing must be said, how little pertinent soever, rather than infringe the Usurer's supposed charter: I tell you, Sir, in short, Borrowers are bad Planters, and worse preservers of Plantation, but the Usurer, methinks, might do rarely well in both; For Planting, to success I take it, requires great leisure and continual care, with a strong Purse.  T. M. 
But in good earnest, shall we undersell our neighbours, and will they long endure it? By what rare Arts shall we keep the knowledge of this hidden vein from them, will not they, if that will do, take the same course?  T. C. 
Let them take what course they please: God and Nature, with the Blessing and freedom of a just and gentle Government, have furnished us with advantages enough, even to some good latitude, if we abuse them not, and that the Usurer and his gang, with their wiles, do not undermine us, and blast our spring in its early blossom.  T. M. 
Will the Hollander, who lives cheaper, works cheaper, sails cheaper, builds ships cheaper, Navigates cheaper, and hath a Noble for our Nine pence, be ever undersold by us in the same commodity? etc.  T. C. 
You will, anon make the Hollander a very fine Monster, of five heads, ten hands, twenty pockets, and never a mouth; And poor England, for aught I see, is wholly given over by the Doctor; well now, say I, may be a fit time for the Mountebank, (as you call him) to try a Dose upon his patient; Recover him, with God's Blessing, it may, for while there is life, there is hope; Hurt him it cannot, for you have pronounced him a dead man: Sir, I have lived in Holland, and know in point of fact, that all Provisions are there at a Rate, near double to what they are here, as needs they must be, not only from the smallness and populousness of their Territory, But from their vast charges of Embanking, Duties, and Tolls; And then I leave it to the Reader to infer, whether their wages, (even to keep them alive, being thrifty enough in Conscience,) must not be greater, as I affirm they generally are, with a Confidence, I am sure, better grounded than yours can be: Some artificial advantages, indeed, they have of us, which, God be thanked, are reasonably balanced by our Natural ones, and we have divers defects, which would soon be cured, if our best heads and stocks were employed in trade, and not in Usury, whereby our dwarves are put to grapple with their Giants.  T. M. 
Will this make the French King revoke his Edicts against our Drapery, suffer his people to sit idle, eat our bread and wear our Manufactures, merely in regard of cheapness? etc.  T. C. 
For the first and last of these, I suppose, it may, viz. by keeping our wool at home for our own working, and shrewdly pinching him, as well in his Ingredients as Vent: For their eating our bread, we aim not much at that, but desire and hope never more to eat theirs; However we may promise ourselves, our Drapery thus encouraged will assuredly carry the Market, and that out Gallants shall have no longer any pretence to wear French Druggets, as they now say, for cheapness.  T. M. 
To what neighbours Standard would you have Usury adjusted? To the French? No sure, they pay more than we, etc.  T. C. 
It is now almost seventy years, since Usury in France was abated from eight to six Pounds and five shillings per Cent. by that wise King Henry the fourth, as a prime expedient to repair the breaches, and desolations of thirty years cruel War, Judging, no other Medicine adequate to the disease, for so it appears by his solemn and Excellent edict in the French Story thus noted and related: The King, by these Edicts, had nothing relieved the necessities of the Nobility, if he had not provided for Usuries, which have ruined many good and ancient Houses, filled Towns with unprofitable servants, and the Countries with Miseries and inhumanities': He found the Rents constituted after ten or eight in the hundred did ruin many good Families, hindered the traffic and Commerce of Merchandise, and made tillage and handicrafts to be neglected; Many desiring, through the easiness of a deceitful gain, to live idly in good Towns of their Rents, (mark this, for it is now become just our own ease, money having so long escaped all our heavy Burdens,) then to give themselves, with any pains to liberal arts, or to till or Husband their inheritances; For this reason, (meaning to invite his subjects to enrich themselves with more just gain,) to content themselves with more moderate profit, and to give the nobility means to pay their debts, he did forbid all Usury or Constitution of Rents, at a higher Rate, than six Pounds five shillings for the hundred: The Edict was verified in the Court of Parliament, which considered, that it was always prejudicial to common-weal to give money to Usury, for it is a Serpent, whose biting is not apparent, and yet it is so sensible, that it pierceth the very heart of the best Families. It was yet early-day, I take it, when this law was made in France, Anno 1601. at least twenty years before Usury had its first reducement from ten to eight per Cent. in this Kingdom, a thing, in itself, very observable; For had it not been for the miserable servitude of that people, and their other insupportable taxes, (the very twins of Usury,) it is scarce by any man's wit imaginable what effects so great and early a foundation of wealth and trade, (as perhaps the then lowest rate of Interest,) might before this time have produced in that ample and fruitful Territory, or what influence it might have had upon all its neighbours: Truly I never heard, it was since raised, and will hold you great odds it was not; And I durst likewise hold you an even wager, (having it from very good hands,) that the French King hath newly reduced Interest to five per Cent. Sweden, our Licenced Gazette acquainted us in a solemn narrative, the last year, brought it from ten to six at one large stride; Little, it should seem, regarding your profound objection of forcing nature by a law, even in a remote Northern tract, or rather Desert, desperate, (one would think,) as to much improvement or trade: If yet you ask me, to what neighbours Standard I would have Usury adjusted, I answer, certainly to the lowest in Christendom, if it might be, for that is evidently best, though somewhat more may for the present serve turn, the rather, because we hope, that with this seasonable lift at the brow of the Hill, it may tumble downward of itself, which, without it, it will never do, but rather rise in Extortion; For as to high and low Interest, it is equally natural for the one to soar with its own Wings, and the other to sink with its proper Weight.  T. M. 
Have not the French beaten us out of our Hamburghs trade as to the Manufacture of Gloves, merely by underselling us therein to a great proportion, being favoured by their cheap labour only? etc.  T. C. 
Quote not the French for wages, lest your Countrymen stone you, their condition indeed is worse than the Gibeonites in Israel, or Israelites in Egypt, their King hath nine pence in the shilling of their Earnings: And yet like spiders, spinning their Webs out of their Bellies, a sorry shift they make, and a trade they drive for their Task- masters profit; For much may be done and paid, where men work almost without eating: But mark the consequence; France, the happiest soil and climate for the extent now known, lies half of it wast, the natives even loathing their own Country, and burdened all the habitable World with their beggarly Colonies, one third of the Lackeys and Valets in Europe being Frenchmen, witness Doctor Heylin, who tells us, that once at Madrid, they banished them all as dangerous for their numbers, finding the French servants in that Town only, to exceed 30000. so just and natural is it for oppression to disarm itself; And even thus the Usurer murdered his own security, as appears by my Authors most genuine complaints, Page 4. and 22.  T. M. 
Surely we need not be long in quest after that which give the foreigner the great advantage over us, since I believe we have as good Mechanics and as lusty Labourers to dispatch work as any of them: How can we then avow any other reasons, than cheapness of provisions, course diet, and worse drink, Parsimonious living and small wages? Whereby, through a constant practice, Foreigners will do that for four pence which our people will not willingly perform for six pence?  T. C. 
But are wages higher with us than our neighbours? A blessed Grievance! God continue and increase it; I do not hear that Scotland or Ireland are so oppressed; Wages are fairly cheaper at York then at London, yet I do not find either York greatly boast, or London much repine; Wages are the highest in Kent of any County in England, except Middlesex, is it therefore our folly. At Rochester you exceed those in the Weld, yet they, I suppose, would change with you: If once you could reconcile great trade to small wages, farewel Hans, the Philosopher's stone were a trifle to it; Good Mechanics and lusty Labourers you grant we have, and I could acquaint, (if I thought it needed,) that we have good brains and stocks, even those Prodigious sums by you owned Page 35. scour this Armoury bright from the rust of Usury, to employ in trade or improvement of Land, and our work is done at once, for all these Cavils will sink, like froth, as indeed they are, if any disproportion there be in wages, (as some in every thing may there be, where the Balance itself is faulty, and the main wheel out of frame,) the remedy falls in of course, and wages will, without more ado, recover and keep their due Standard; Otherwise to dream of augmenting trade by stinting wages, too much resembles the judicious contrivance of that worthy Squire, whom nothing would please but to let his meadow for forty shillings the Acre, and buy his Hay at ten shillings the Load.  T. M. 
Will our fuel and labour which is the main charge of Iron be ever as cheap as in Sweden, though we knew not what Interest meant?  T. C. 
No man, I dare say, can define, what the total extirpation of Usury might or might not effect; Yet probably speaking, I shall admit they never will: And therefore in this, and possibly some parallel cases must refer you to the common practice of rival States, when both equally possess the ingredients of some important Manufacture, but the one, by reason of some circumstance, (like this of cheap fuel in a remote Northern Country,) cannot compass it so cheap for Market as the other; What do they then do but help their own commodity, (at least as to their own Use,) by charging the foreign with an Impost wisely proportioned to their own defect: thus have the French to our Cost lately clogged the importation of most of our Manufactures, especially our Draperies, and thus have we very successfully, without forbidding Flemish Hops, in effect excluded them, to the great improvement of our own so necessary growth; Whether any other temporary respect of league or trade with Sweden may Balance so weighty an Interest as this of Iron, I leave to the wisdom of Authority, acknowledging, that I cannot see into the Millstone; Otherwise I dare pronounce, posterity may deeply repent our easiness herein, both in the future price of Iron, neglect of woods, and increase of the poor; However, do we our utmost, repel Swedish Iron, and recover our forges, yet the present rate of Usury shall undermine our woods, and render the price of that Staple commodity insupportable to us even among ourselves.  T. M. 
The general conspiracy amongst Artificers and Labourers is so apparent, that, within forty Miles of London, Artificers are raised, (against all reason,) from 18 or 20 d. to 2 s. 6 d. or 3 s. and mere Labourers from 10 d. or 12 d. a day to 16 or 20 d.  T. C. 
Your Conspiracy of Artificers and Labourers is a dangerous Plot indeed, much like that of Usurers, not to lend at abated Interest, but 'tis strange, say I, they should conspire only within forty miles of London? Surely, the only inconvenience as to our wages consists in the present disproportion betwixt Trade and Land; For our manifest Growth in the Bulk of our trade since the last fall of Usury having deserved, advanced wages in all our Maritine and Trading Towns, hath necessarily imposed the same upon the Country's adjacent, which, under their unequal pressures and impoverishment they cannot bear, so fruitful of mischief is error, this is at present a real and accumulative grievance, particularly to us in Kent, by reason of the special influence we receive both from the City and Navy; But to retrieve it otherwise, then by easing Land for the future in the Rate of Taxes and Usury were indeed a work worthy of your Art.  T. M. 
But since Usury hath been reduced, hath not the vent of our Manufactures daily lessened, and doth not that whole nation dwindle into extreme poverty?  T. C. 
Usury in respect of Land hath been so far from abatement, (as I have often proved,) that it hath been, in effect, excessively raised by our unequal burdens, though Usurers perhaps will not allow that bitter to others, which to them was so delicious; For they have all this while, (no doubt, like true Israelites,) dwelled in the Land of Goshen; As for trade, which, God be thanked, hath had easier fetters, and whose exemption hath been our only support, by all the measures of it that can be taken, it is, (all things considered) miraculously advanced, as yourself also confess, Page 43. where you justly observe the prodigious riches of London, and our Merchants plentiful way of living: But it is common with sophisters in a bad cause to contradict themselves.  T. M. 
Sure I am, I know many Artificers, and Tradesmen, who now live well and borrow, etc.  T. C. 
But how many do you know, that have borrowed and broke; 'Tis a hard battle, say I, where none survive.  T. M. 
You are so sharp set in the quarrel, the poor Fisherman, who never owed above twenty Pounds in Usury cannot scape you, etc.  T. C. 
Surely, Sir, I aimed not at the poor Fisherman or Huckster, (though perhaps the use of twenty Pounds to him, in his model, may be likewise penal enough,) but at the Royal fishing trade, which I take it, requires even a national stock, and cannot now be effectually promoted, but at very low Interest.  T. M. 
Who shall judge what moderate benefit the Borrower may cheerfully afford the lender? etc.  T. C. 
You have, by the way, (unwarily, I suppose,) urged one of the best arguments for condemning all Usury, and reducing it to the honest participation of gain or loss, so abhorred by Usurers; But my answer is, the Usurer doth, upon the whole matter, in our case, prejudge and conclude himself, even by his choice.  T. M. 
But will you not by way of gratitude and requital allow the Usurer a liberal reward for hazards as great as an East-India Voyage?  T. C. 
When he hath tried the hazards of an East-India Vayage, he may the better measure his demands by it: But I doubt he finds it easier and better pastime to talk of Robin Hood, then draw his bow: Yet let him examine whether the hazards he objects be not of his own creating by uncharitable contracts, and whether a due abatement of his profit would not mend his security; For two per Cent. we offer him competent insurance.  T. M. 
What mean those swarms of lewd and Idle persons, who prowl about in every part of the Kingdom, or those gangs of Gypsies, that appear amongst us at noonday? etc.  T. C. 
Because your present objection seems to be grounded upon our pretended general want of ingenuity and industry, I shall endeavour previously to remove this vulgar Prejudice; And first for ingenuity, I say, it appears reasonable to suppose, that People, at least, of the same or near the same Climate and Meridian are born with the same or near the same Principles of ingenuity: that which afterwards makes the difference, is law, example, Education, Custom, and other foreign accidents of life, either ennobling or depraving our natures: Thus the examples of Princes and Generals active and always present in Battles and Camps, together with Military rewards and Punishments makes Nations and Armies valiant: Pure doctrine enlivened by diligent Preachers, adorned by holy patterns, and advanced by wholesome Constitutions Civil and Ecclesiastical, makes people Orthodox and devout; Hope of success in their affairs, with a nimble spur to endeavour, and prudent curb of sloth, makes men inquisitive and ingenious: I say then we are now, caeteris paribus, as ingenious as any people living, for every one, by a kind of civil instinct, understands and closely pursues his best interest, and what would you have more? To begin with the Usurer, (for with him indeed we must begin) he, I am sure, of all men is in the right; for you, in your first Page, have resolved and secured him in point of conscience, by positively affirming, that hiring of money is as necessary for the well being of Mankind as hiring of Land or Houses; and those, we know, were never questioned by any Casuist: Then you lay him down a second doctrine every whit as wholesome; that his profit should reward his hazard, which sometimes, you say, is excessive; Betwixt these two, what should hinder him from concluding, that what we now call extortion, may be, in many cases, every whit as just as common interest; The latter having no more real stamp of Authority, than the former: Thus I have heard that Highwaymen fancy they acquit themselves and come off with honour, by pleading, that they see no difference betwixt their courses, and some worshipful trades, but the danger, which, they suppose, much improves their title, and so, by your rule, evidently it doth. Being thus inwardly fortified, his next consideration is profit, and surely that affords no dispute: I have heard, that an eminent person, to prove that beasts have Logic, would introduce a hound or Beagle thus discoursing; The hare went not that way, for there I smell nothing; nor that way, for there I smell nothing neither; but this way, for here, indeed, I have a seent of her. To the Usurer's choice three ways are propounded for the employment of his stock; Land, Trade, and Usury; And thus I presume him to argue: Land I like not, for there I smell Taxes, Duties, and loss of Rents; Trade I like not, for there I smell Pirates, shipwreck, trusts, Customs, and Flemings; But for Usury, surely there went the hare, for there is the sweet savour of mortgages and veils with Immunity Ease and Dominion. Of the borrower I have little to say, for I look upon him all along not as a free but necessary Agent or rather patient: What would you expect from the Labourer? He works not if he can choose, and in effect tell us, if you find working so good, work yourselves; Is not this a witty answer from a Labourer? Hath he not, think you conferred notes with six per Cent: To thrive by pain-taking he sees little hope; live from hand to mouth, it seems he can, tying one hand behind him. If then he work in dear years, take his ease in cheap, and cast himself upon the Parish in age or sickness, doth he not very discreetly? Even those Gangs of Gypsies you mention, I doubt not but the Usurers, wholesome Principles, applied to their condition, may likewise bear then out in conscience and Prudence; the Usurer himself being (qua Usurer,) to the Commonwealth but a bigger and graver sort of Gipsy Now for our Industry, it appears by the premises, that is merely frustrate by our ingenuity from one end of the board to the other; For if Usury and sloth be more pleasant, profitable, and secure, Industry becomes folly, and that so it is, who can doubt seeing it by so intelligent Persons so dearly preferred: It must then be laws grounded upon Equity and Virtue, which must clear this endless Labyrinth, and Correct this vicious habit, and that of subduing Usury must march in the van. And for infallible high-water marks to know the tide or season, take this; When rich and experienced Citizens leave off Trading, and betaks themselves to Interest; When moneyed men in the Country generally decline Purchasing, but inquire for security and hug good mortgages; When honest men make it the business of their lives to sell at any tolerable rate, and pay their debts, but cannot; When the mortgage, being at first but half, is become full or near equal in Account to the Land; When Statutes, judgements, and Recognizances grow as familiar as Bonds, and new shaped securities are daily minted; When the ruin of all Borrowers and most Farmer's is bespoken; When it is weightily objected, that there are many Borrowers for one lender, (though surely as much lent as borrowed;) When Professions are overcharged, but the Land understocked; When, by reason of the Farmer's indigence, Markets run low with mean crops; When, according to the French Kings Edict, many good and ancient Houses are ruined, Towns fined with unprofitable servants, and the Countries with Miseries and inhumanities', Traffic and Commerce of Merchandise hindered, tillage and handicrafts neglected, etc. When Usurers would pass for Orphans, and in their own defence, turn Preachers and Patriots; When Parish duties increase, yet Vagabonds swarm; Then, then, I say, the fruit is ripe, Gather it, or expect abundance of windfalls; Yet even then, I doubt not, but abatement of Usury, and equal Taxing, will with God's Blessing, and some allowance of time, (for betwixt Ebbing and Flowing is always still water,) retrieve our aftergame, revive Farmers, excite improvements, and largely answer all the Benefits specified in my former treatise.  T. M. 
Were our poor industrious and frugal, and wages reasonable, (which I fear will never be, till the abused (rutch of State-maintenance be rescinded, or better regulated,) they could not want employment, though Usury were at eight per Cent.  T. C. 
I agree with you in the rescinding of State-maintenance, as a provision only proper for the times it was made in, when Monasteries were newly dissolved, and Trade in its infancy; But if you will take from the poor this Crutch, you must withal cure their Lameness, and set them upright upon their own legs, lest they lie too heavy at your doors: This, I affirm, neither eight nor six per Cent. will do, nor any thing but the turning of our main stocks out of the muddy Chamel of Usury into the pure streams of Husbandry and Traffic, by a round abatement and equal Taxing of Interest-money; For did you not mark, how eight per Cent. in France, even seventy years since, when perhaps that rate was less in proportion then five is now, filled Towns with unprofitable servants, spoilt Traffic, tillage, and handicrafts?  T. M. 
I am persuaded, few men come into great poverty, but by their own idle, irregular and wicked Courses, etc.  T. C. 
Censure not so uncharitably, at least declaim not so freely; For, I dare say, if it were examined, there are more and severer texts of Scripture, Canons of the Church, Sentences of Fathers and eminent Doctors, condemning Usurers, than ●uthrifts or Vagabonds; But the truth is, if men be commonly idle, they will be lewd of Course, (for standing waters will putrefy;) And if poor men want work, or can live at half work, they will be commonly idle; if farming and handicrafts decline they will want work, and yet perhaps may miserably live at half work; all things being cheap not for real plenty, but by reason of the seller's exigence; And if Usury still oppress Industry, Farming and handicrafts must naturally decline: and if the Usurer, having thus oppressed the poor, do likewise reproach them; he seems to speak in Pharaohs proper dialect.  T. M. 
Who can but admire, that whilst our poor are thus lazy, wasteful, and disorderly; the Dutch and Walloons, who live under the same laws, should notwithstanding, by some innate virtue, or peculiar rules of their own, preserve themselves in their ancient simplicity, and be so remarkably industrious?  T. C. 
No man need admire it, if he will but consider, what they were from their first arrival here, viz. A choice band of people, who being famous Artificers, bringing good stocks with them, and forsaking their Country for their conscience, gave indeed abundant proof of their integrity and innate virtue, which they have derived to their posterity; Who, (as you rightly note,) still observe certain peculiar rules of their own; the chief whereof are, that they dread borrowing, Cherish Industry, hate oppression and discord, provide liberally for their real poor, and prefer honest labour and trade before Usury, though more easy, and perhaps more profitable; which Gods blessing will always attend.  T. M. 
Our Fathers could count one two and three, and some of them pay ten per Cent. for money, and had Sons and Daughters too to provide for, and yet suffered thriving Timber to stand to its full growth, etc.  T. C. 
I could allege another manner of reason, than you dream of for the standing of Timber to full growth in our Father's time, viz. their general abhorrence of multiplying money by money, now so current and Orthodox; witness the Statute 13. Elizabeth which in its Preamble recites, that all Usury, being against the law of God is sinful and detestable, thereby convincing us of the sense of that Age; As also the Act 21. jacobi, which foreseeing, what perverse use might be, made of their Limitation, by construing it to an allowance of Usury, notably provides against the mistake; But I will admit, the inconsiderable Value of their Timber, at least in places remote from Market, must needs have been a second motive, (proper for such as then owed or wanted money) to let it stand: Otherwise, if our Fathers could have had tolerable prizes for their Timber, and yet would either pay ten per Cent. or decline the receiving it with a safe conscience, I durst, without Irreverence to them, pronounce, that they could not count one, two and three.  T. M. 
Can we well hope, that any thing but severe laws can make half the nation wise in this particular? etc.  T. C. 
The only laws, in this and most other cases, are those of encouragement; Those of Compulsion, by experience, signify little; And what encouragement so manifest, as abating Usury?  T. M. 
I say this Course, (forementioned,) or the like, being duly observed, would bring mutual benefit to the Commonwealth and Planter.  T. C. 
Believe me, Sir, the Planters benefit is not so clear as you surmise; For to the planting of groves, I take it, more is required, than the bare notion, or written direction, viz. Chargeable fencing, loss of Rent, constant Residence, perfect leisure, and long forbearance, with allowance, not withstanding, for Damage, so as, it seems to be the proper work only of rich and contemplative men; Wherefore you might for the present have reserved your good rules, till we be in somewhat a a better condition of planting, or, at least, of preserving what we plant, by abating Usury and delivering us from the Bondage of debt, which will either intercept or interrupt most Improvements of this Nature.  T. M. 
What improvident actions, (besides the Calamities of the late ill times,) have contracted great debts upon many of our Gentry, is too apparent to be covered with figleaves, etc.  T. C. 
Methinks, Sir, I cannot better resemble most of your Arguments upon this subject, then to the Sentence of a Country Doctor, who, in a visit to his Patient, dying of the stone, gravely pronounced, that if he could piss freely, he might do well, or to the right witty prevention of Vomiting at Sea by holding a large Pebble in the mouth: For, when we demand a Remedy to our present Encumbrance and embasement of Land and Rents, you bid us look better to the decay of our Manufacture, and exporting our coin: you recommend to us the Reforming our Luxury and avoiding Idleness, you tell the Gentleman, he must get and keep out of debt, reside in the Country, plant groves and orchards, and read Seneca; The Labourer you direct to be always at work, and accept such wages, as his Master may afford to give; The Vagabond you admonish to keep at his home, or, if he have none, to get one, to mend his manners, and be a better Commonwealthsman's, than he hath hitherto been; Why do you not likewise chide the Farmer; because, in truth, his farm is understocked, ill fenced, and out of heart? Seriously, your discourse is very charming, the beasts and Trees, one would think, should again dance to such a pipe: Now, for the party here accused, viz. the Gentleman, you advise him to sell timely, he entreats you to purchase fairly, for unless you will buy, he cannot sell; He protests, he offers you almost half under value, and makes it his chief business in this World to solicit you; But you slightingly tell him, Land stinks of taxes nothing, is sweet but money; Thus you wish him to keep close at home, but will you suffer him there to stay? Live he should within compass, it must be a very narrow compass, if it be your Reversion, you will teach him to play the Epicure, you will reform him with a witness, before you leave him; By all means, he must plant, but is it not that you may Gather? Surely, Sir, you speak all this while Ironically, for when you list to be a little more serious, you have other language within call, you can tell us, Page 2. of borrowing to keep out of Prison; Of 1500. per Annum brought to a trifle without ill husbandry, Page 10. Of hazards by Tenants, paying Taxes of all sorts for what is really none of his, being a sort of Bailiff to the savage Usurer, Page 36. Of keeping up Interest in terrorem, Page 40. You can, I presume, pronounce of a person greatly encumbered, as of one that hath plague-tokens; Nay you can foresee ruin upon its march in a great Estate, (once dipped as you term it,) at ten, perhaps twenty years' distance without present sale, be the owner never so provident; You require vast mortgages, and other daily new invented securities, to borrowers as penal as Usury itself: The fact therefore, I am sure, you too well know, give me leave to acquaint you with the cause (since those you offer are but accidents;) A poor man that had a very sore Leg, showed ' it the Chirurgeon, and mournfully asked him, if it must not be cut off, to which he pleasantly replied, that trouble, perhaps, might be saved, let it alone for a while longer, and lay but Diaculum to it, it will soon enough rot off without more ado: such Surgery, methinks, is the best you can here afford, viz. trivial cheap, but therefore destructive to us, who, I take it, want effectual means; For Encumbrance is to the Commonwealth an Ulcer, deeply rooted in a vitiated habit, fed by a Rebellious humour, viz. Usury, with its Accomplices, unequal Burdens; Conquer or tame this humour, the Ulcer heals; But Plasters shall never Mitigate, diet shall never alone correct it; Having once got this head, it is too proud and stubborn for any thing but Cauteries, and Radical courses; Else it will need no other inflammation than its own to fester and spread.  
Crescit, indulgens sibi, dirus Hydrops,  
Nec sitim pellit, nisi causa Morbi  
Fugerit Venice, & aquosus Albo  
Corpore Languor.  T. M. 
Sure I am, nothing more argues a nation ripe for destruction, then. Intemperance, Corruption of Manners, and Exorbitancy of expense in all degrees of men, etc.  T. C. 
If you will, indeed, reclaim our Extravagants, begin with the Usurer, 'tis he that needs your morals; He is the Captain of our Banditti; Reduce him, and they will soon disband for want of a head; His life is a State of outlawry, no man, like him, persists in defiance of Authority; Lay what taxes you please, be they never so just, necessary, and clearly imposed, he laughs and tells you to your face, he'll not pay a groat: Tax Usurers, in good time, Tax Princes! All the other Brood you mention are but the litter and spawn of this Venomous beast or Serpent; Pardon the Expression, I only borrow it from the Parliament of Paris.  
You will say, this is very odd, indeed, to arraign Usurers for Excess; But, alas! All our madness is not in Bedlam, nor all our Riot in Taverns: There is a more grave and dangerous debauch, whose thrift is the Kingdom's Prodigality: I have heard of a plain Country fellow in a great house at Christmas▪ who being made drunk for sport, and disgorging, called the Butler, and sold him, see, see now, what you have done; Let the Countryman be who you please, the Butler, I am sure, is the Usurer, well known by his box.  T. M. 
Have we ourselves been sensible of improvements of Land in Purchase, proportionable to the several Retrenchments of Usury?  T. C. 
Ask the Parliament now sitting, they tell you, our improvements of Land are visible; whether sensible then, or no, do you consider.  T. M. 
When money was at ten per Cent. Land was worth, (as several discreet and aged Persons inform me,) 15 or 16 years' Purchase, etc.  T. C. 
This I affirm to be a bold mistake, and prove my averment, 1. from the Balance of Land and Interest, which never fails but to the Prejudice of Land in bad times; 2. From the plain recital of the Act 21. jacobi declaring then a fall of Land, even below its due proportion, as the natural effect of high Interest; 3 From the testimony of my father, dedicating his tract to that Parliament, wherein he sat, and avowing twelve years' purchase, than not controlled, and sure, not modestly to be questioned fifty years after: But I see you are one of those deaf men I mentioned, that hear only what you list.  T. M. 
When money was at eight per Cent. (being the time of our greatest Prosperity) Land yielded but 17 or 18 years' Purchase, and not frequently 20, etc.  T. C. 
Surely a fair Rise in so short a Period, being but 13 or 14. years inclusive at most, for about the year 1637. I take it, began our Scotish Commotions, which might reasonably check its progress, (as my Father in his second Treatise insinuates they did,) for civil War and Usury are closer Confederates, than you are aware of, and both sworn enemies to the Land: 'Twas multis utile bellum that succoured his friend at a dead lift, and enabled him thus to trample upon freeholders and Farmers; High Interest and Freequarter, me thinks, are first Cousins.  T. M. 
But now by our unhappy expense of foreign growths and Manufactures, over and above our native commodities exported, and a succession of Taxes, great and heavy like the Waves of the Sea are not our Landlords in debt, many Borrowers and few lender's, and Land fallen to 16 or 17 years' Purchase, where 'tis like to continue, for aught I see, (though Interest were reduced) till we have more money, fewer Borrowers, and less Land to sell: For if subduing Interest would have done the desired feat, 'tis strange to me, that falling from ten to six per Cent. which is almost one half, should not appear ere now so visibly, as to stop the mouths of all gainsayers.  T. C. 
Nothing will stop the mouths of some Gainsayers; Yet to stop all mouths but those that gape on purpose, (as Usurers, we observe, do, and that very wide,) I will not refer you to yourself for an answer, though well I might, for surely your question amounts but to this, how come our Landlords; having been so long and grievously oppressed; to be so deeply encumbered? Neither will I barely thank you for so strongly and pertinently urging my arguments for me, but will likewise, in requital, set you on your way, which it seems, you have lost by a Fog: You allege, that there are many borrowers and few lender's, but is there not, say I, as much lent as borrowed? Is there a Borrower without a lender? And might not our lender's, (who, it appears, are great ones, being few to many Borrowers,) soon become Purchasers, if, (as the phrase is,) they were free? And is not the pinching of Usury in rate and taxes the readiest way to make them free, that is forward to purchase? And may not such forwardness of theirs make borrowers likewise free, that is, able to sell at tolerable prices, for the payment of their debts, which now, it is certain, they cannot? And may not such sales and payments soon clear and contract the number of debts and debtors? And will not such clearing of debts in time make few exigents? And will not few exigents make sellers thin? And will not the thinness of sellers, even by your own confession marvellously raise Land? You reproach us with the present fall of Land in purchase, but doth not your tenant paying you 75 pound in money, and 25 pound in lawful Bills, reckon that he pays you 100 pound per Annum? And do you not believe his account? And have not most Usurers treated and purchased accordingly? And doth not this, by your own allowance come pretty near my account? And is it not much, that it should still do so, considering the extremities of some, and moderation of others? You object the expense of foreign commodities above our own exportation, but have not Land-taxes: (the Usurer's darling, however you now exclaim against them, for old friends may sometimes wrangle, and shake hands again,) dispatched many of our Freeholders and Farmouts half undone by the War? And hath not their ruin made much of our Land lie waste, and more be ill husbanded? And must not such waste miserably impair and decay our Growth? And must not such decay starve our exportation? And may not trade so founded easily exceed in its importation? Show me, if you can, the weakness of these chains.  T. M. 
None will lend at three or four per Cent. but upon some other special consideration, etc.  T. C. 
Too many, I doubt, will still lend at four per Cent. as well for the Rents reserved, and thereby secured, as also for divers other good causes and considerations; The chief whereof, I suppose, will be, that they can no other way, for the present, get so much, so easily, safely, and to them conveniently, yet more, 'tis hoped, will purchase, which I take for much the wholsomest kind of loan, wishing that Usurers thought so too.  T. M. 
Must not trade, (to the infinite loss of the Nation,) be hereby engrossed by a few, who have prodigious Sums at command, to the excluding of small-stocked Traders, and young beginners with little money?  T. C. 
You are still for Pedlars and Higlers, the Usurer's Cattle, whom he milks almost daily, and at last must eat them lean, (for fat they can never be,) I am for the Worshipful Trader, even the Usurer himself, that hath stock to cope with a Fleming viz. those prodigious Sums at command or Interest, (so I take your meaning) which, methinks, I had rather see generously employed in foreign Conquests, then, like intestine war, eating our own bowels, and praying on our vitals: As for the engrossing of Trade, that is, indeed, your wisest Argument, for have you not noted all along, how Trade was dispersed by high Interest, but, engrossed by lower? And may not I observe, how the Bvilder's tongues are confounded? Nine in ten of your brethren, at least, your sages objecting, (directly in your teeth) the inevitable growth of a mechanic Trade, (as they call it) meaning thereby, I suppose, a Trade, not so profitable, as some of them now possess, nor so easy, Lordly, and secure, as the present Rate of U sury.  
Having hitherto shown, how little your general invectives against our Luxury, and other reigning vices signify to your Purpose, I shall now, (with less noise, but I hope more evidence) turn your own weapons against you, by proving, that Abatement of Usury is, in its own nature, the greatest sumptuary Law, perhaps the only effectual one, that Policy, with Justice can contrive; Therefore, no doubt, recommended by God himself to his own People; Therefore, by the wisest of Commonwealths, both ancient and modern, laid as the very Cornerstone of their Fabric; Therefore, by King Henry the Fourth of France, a Prince of vast experience, after the desolations of Civil War, aptly chosen, both for a restorative of past, and antidote against future Distempers; Therefore, by that Politic Emperor Tiberius approved, who, though he justly slighted the Pedantic Notion of reforming popular excess by coercive Laws, (as appears by his notable speech to the Senate upon that subject) yet, as a main provision for public security and good order, from his own treasury, erected a Bank for noble Romans, of declining fortune, (though of the Patrician faction) to borrow for divers years without paying Interest; By that single Act, redeeming in great measure the scandals of his tyranny; Finally therefore, by most familiar proofs, asserted; For who sees not that the excesses of this, and indeed every State, are fed by three plentiful and indulgent Nurses, viz. drooping debtors, easy gainers, and impotent Vagrants? The first of these, (like those that project to live but from hand to mouth) loathing to day, and fearing to morrow, resign themselves to dissolute habits, that so they may forget those miseries which they cannot prevent, and be in part revenged on disaster by slighting it, perhaps they judge it nor altogether unreasonable for them to partake with an oppressor in their own spoils, as persons unhappily matched, sometimes think it just to share with their licentious mates: The second, (wallowing in their superfluity, through an unwieldy stock managed to certain profit with little burden or trouble, whilst their betters cark and droop) neigh and prance, like high-fed horses, and by the old Proverb, Light come, light go, care not what they squander, perhaps at Dice, because their very sheep's tails, they think will pay the reckoning, be it what it will; And though this character may not fit the Usurer himself (who seldom revels but wisely, and at the borrowers charge) yet his Executor, possessing an Estate, with a curse appendent, without proportion to his quality and breeding, ofttimes consumes it as dissolutely as his Ancestor shrewdly got it: The third and most general, finding virtuous courses servile and unprofitable, and nothing sweet but sums usuniously improved, which they want, and see not how to compass, first turn tail to industry, and then meeting with common frailty in the ●, fill up the measure of our disorders: Now whither a convenient corrosive applied to Usury may not, with allowance for humane dross, by relieving the first, retrenching the second, and employing the third, probably in time, reclaim and refine them all, I leave to found and impartial judgements.  T. M. 
Why do you tax high Interest with injustice and oppression though the Law tolerate it?  T. C. 
High Interest, I take it, is a term of scandalous sound, equivalent to that of excessive or biting Usury, which no man that owned conscience had ever yet the face of brass to defend: Even for common and general Rates, give me leave again to tell you, you still abound in your wilful mistake of Limitation for Toleration; since no Assembly of Christians, that deserved the name, or had the face of a Church, (no not heretical) ever gave Usury the least approbation, other than their silence, finding, perhaps, the Sons of Zerviah too hard for them; No Christian Authority that I have heard of, Popular, or Despotic, ever allowed it a current stamp: Mahomet himself hath prohibited it.  T. M. 
I dare avow, that since Usury became so tame, we have two Gentlemen in debt for one that was before, etc.  T. C. 
I durst refer it even to the Usurer himself, if I had any hope he would speak out, whether Interest be now a tame beast; And whether, betwixt its Bear-like rage, and Foxlike wiles, it hath not been of late more savage than ever: whither, if it had continued at ten or eight per Cent. it would not, long ere this, have strewed our highways with carcases; And whither already it have not so sufficiently worried us, that it needs no longer be upheld for a Bugbear.  T. M. 
Is not this to rob Peter to pay Paul, and as bad as stealing sheep, and giving the Trotters to the Poor for God's sake? etc.  T. C. 
Boast nor too loud of this Spanish Proverb, At least, be not so fond of it, as to bring it in by the head and shoulders; For, to my knowledge, it is one of the best and aptest similitudes commonly used to check the arrogance of Usurers in their pretended Alms.  T. M. 
Sir Francis Bacon saith, It is a vanity to conceive; That there would be borrowing without profit, that is, a proportionable reward for the disservice the Lender ofttimes gives himself, and hazard he runs.  T. C. 
Were Sir Francis Bacon now living, I verily believe, he would grant three or four per Cent. to be no incompetent reward for Loans in general: 'Tis true, in respect of ten, the rate wherewith he was acquainted, it seems a trifle; But nothing upon earth is great or small, save in comparison, as the Dog is a dwarf to an Ox, but to the Mouse a Monster: In Pagan Kingdoms, where weekly or monthly increase is usually exacted, any thing per Cent. would perhaps be counted moderate; In Colonies and new Plantations, where neither the situation and Commerce of the Place, nor quality of the Inhabitants affords security or credit, fifteen, nay twenty and thirty per Cent. hath been current; And he that so trusted, was reputed charitable, (as Charity there went) though it beggared them all: In Tributary Provinces, and misgoverned Countries, or remote from Traffic or Sunshine, exigence itself almost commands high Rates; Neither, indeed is it much material in some of them, what the Rates be, where nature scarce admits of any improvement, or employment, but for mean stocks: In England, about sixty or eighty years since, Trade was in its early nonage, Traders were few, Builders, Planters, and Improvers thin, and small competition we had with our neighbours, whereby the Returns of stock must needs be generally large, even liberally to reward any tolerable Interest; But now to argue upon that principle, were a paradox, like that of maintaining the ancient Rates of Purveyance, Statute, (or as my Author judiciously propounds) stinted wages; For, I take it, the reason of varying them from time to time, is the same through out, with this single, yet notable diversity, that as all other things advance, Usury must abate; Upon which account, I verily hope, or rather doubt not, but that (with God's blessing) the next generation may judge even four per Cent. an extravagant rate for money.  T. M. 
The Usurer says, Rather than venture at three or four per Cent. He will keep his money, and once in a year get more by Lurching, etc.  T. C. 
See my mistake! I took the Usurer for an Orphan, an impotent person, at least a very harmless fellow, till you proclaimed him, at need, an errand Lurcher. Well! It seems, he is a good man, and a fair Gamester, that he should not all this while, so much as think of his tricks, till he was put to his trumps: But let him take his course, your own Author, Sir Francis Bacon acquaints us, that big words and menaces are the constant marks of imbecility, and we all know the great Usurer too wise to play much, or commonly, at that game, for fear of mischief; Yet to do him perfect Right beyond any future cavil or exception, I shall fairly examine, upon what ground of reason and justice he sleights the benefit of four per Cent: The Usurer, you say, thinks that profit too small, but is not rather his eye too big? I affirm, it is still great, perhaps excessive and offer to prove it by all the measures of square and honest gain, whither you will consider his title, his stock, his pains, his skill, or compare him with others; His title is merely advantage taken of his Brother's exigence; His stock, (sever it from his Farm) scarce equals a Barbers, or indeed a Rat-catcher's, his Agents and servants being all maintained by others; His skill comes short of a Fiddlers or Jugglers, Minors and Idiots being free of the company; His pains do not much exceed the Vagabonds or Gypsies he so upbraids: Now to compare him with his Neighbours, who, one would think might somewhat better mere from their Country; His Neighbours, I suppose, are Freehc●ders, Farmers, and Traders; For Freeholders you tell us almost in every page, what their profit is, for you wonder they are so mad to borrow, you advise them at their peril to sell upon any terms, and you deride their imaginary improvements: Of Farmers, I think I need not offer a syllable, Res ipsa loquitur; We are then reduced to Traders, who are of two sorts, Foreign and Domestic; The Domestic, being Shopkeepers and Artificers, depending on the Casualty of Vent or Custom, have a Benefit so contingent, as no Rule concerning them can well be framed, nor other observation made, than this in general, that some indeed thrive, and many fail, even of those that set up with their own stocks, but still were Borrowers: Foreign Traders are either in those few trades, which we naturally or politically engross, or those many, wherein we intercommon with the Dutch and others; The former indeed, I suppose, may ofttimes yield good returns to the Merchant; But neither is their foundation very large, nor, perhaps altogether so found as to build our fortune, on them: In the latter, being of more vast and solid advantage and behoof, the present rate of Interest must of necessity, as to many of them, wholly exclude, in all, so encounter and curb us, that we cannot expect any cheerful progress, or otherwise than to truckle under the Hollander, a trade, whose benefit is not, (one would think) very hard to calculate: Whence then is our Usurers lofty pretence, or but colourable claim even to four per Cent.  T. M. 
Few will sit down so contented, having been used to greater profit, but will rush upon several projects and undertake, which, for want of skill to manage, may redound to the equal prejudice both of themselves and the Commonwealth.  T. C. 
Sure I think, I may now sing Nunc dimittas, For I have lived to hear the Usurer talk of projects and undertake too; His Business hitherto hath been only to sit warm, and unconcerned, applaud his own happy conduct, for thriving with such ease; censure and deride the Tenant for taking such pains to be undone, the Landlord for not falling near half of his rent, and consequently his inheritance, but trying the most probable conclusions he could think on, to make it; in some measure good to him, and venturing to turn farmer of his Land himself, upon mere constraint, Rather than let it to the Grows; The slander by, it seems, could then see more than the Gamester; But four per Cent. belike, 2 little altars the case, and infuses such metal into a roguish Usurer▪ poor wretch, that all on the sudden he is on fire, and a perfect Knight-errant, for what would you expect more of Don Quixot himself, then to rush upon projects and undertake? Well Sir, 'tis the best thing said in your book: Turn him lose, say I, he is throughly fledged, having got, God be thanked, store of Feathers upon his Back; And the Commonwealth, I dare say, will freely venture her share in his Flight.  T. M. 
Is not the greatest part of Trade driven by young men with small stocks?  T. C. 
I hope, Sir, you mean the Costardmongers trade, or the poor fisherman's before mentioned; Sure I am, if our principal trade be so driven, it is high time to reduce Usury, to some purpose, and call in to our rescue the prodigious sums you boast of; Neither will I pretend to urge a greater Argument for the restraint of it, than you have here contrived: But our Comfort is, the Usurer now understands trade too well to trust the trader upon mere Credit, or with a small stock, very far.  T. M. 
Is not your answer to Widows and Orphans very harsh and churlish?  T. C. 
Really, I much marvel you should think so; For first I tell them of other Widows and Orphans mainly concerned in Land, who, by the uneasy Rates of Interest and taxes now receive prejudice, at least equal to the Benefit of these; Secondly I mention a numerous train of unhappy but honest borrowers, perhaps no less worthy of support then themselves, who, by the same pressures have been, and are daily almost ruined; These, being evidently relievable by restraint of Usury, I desire may likewise be considered, and put into the Counterscale: Thirdly, I conjure them to deal as they would be dealt with, (a hard lesson, I know, for any oppressor to learn,) in not exacting from their borrowers, that which I calmly say they cannot afford, or which my Author himself, in other language, (perhaps, more effectual and peremptory,) often affirms, must ruin at least all our borrowing Landlords to give.  
But wholly to silence the Rage of these masked Usurers, who exclaim as if Christianity were expiring, when Usury only is reducing, I shall distinguish the Plaintiffs into two Ranks, viz. truly impotent and intelligent; For the truly impotent, or infants and Orphans properly so called, I offer these considerations. 1. That they are certainly beholden to the several falls of Interest for their present ample provision, which is much better even at four per Cent. (all things computed,) then those of their Rank, generally, enjoyed at ten. 2. The Orphans of London, (who, by reason of their assurance, fare, I suppose the best of any,) complain not much of that rate. 3. Abatement of their profit will certainly facilitate and improve security for other Orphans, and may so turn to better account. 4. By raising the Value of Land, their fellow Orphans, the children of Loyal and worthy Parents, (for number and quality, perhaps more considerable,) may be likewise provided for, who otherwise can never look for portions, at least, to their degrees: The intelligent I fairly admonish, to save their stakes by purchasing betimes, which, in Mortgages, where the title hath been scanned, were, methinks, an easy exchange: This, I hope, is no such cruel hardship, or dangerous Doctrine; for though some Doctors hold Usury to be consistent with good conscience, yet few, that I have heard of, maintain it necessary to good life: And further to prove it most reasonable, thus I argue; Either the Rents of Land do now competently Balance the Interest of money, or they do not; If not, where is their Justice? If they do, where is their prejudice? Besides, I am directed by an honest Gentleman and their special Advocate, one Mr. Manly, to acquaint them, That five Pounds five shillings a year in Land once surely settled, whereby they shall only venture their Rent, which is commonly secured by stock upon the ground, is better than a hundred Pounds in money at six per Cent. sometimes tumbled and tossed at Usury like a ship in a tempest, and utterly lost, and sometimes remaining useless by them, like a vessel becalmed: If now they will not be ruled by their best friends, what hope is there say I of persons so refractory and self conceited? In case their genius be not for Land, let them try the Seas in foreign trade; If they can be brought neither to fancy the Land, nor trust the Sea, let them build granaries, to deal for grain and other commodities in cheap times, and keep them for better Markets, and with as much ease, as a Usurer's heart would wish, sometimes double their stock, so employed; or let them advance our national Manufactures with clean hands, and no doubt with competent gain: If nothing but Usury will content them, tell them from me, I smell an evil savour, and that it were great pity, but they were pinched in their superfluous, and (to the Commonwealth) every way pernicious Revenue.  T. M. 
Is not Interest with us the lowest by Law in Europe?  T. C. 
I verily believe, there is no law in Europe for Interest, save only the law of restraint, which you are pleased still to misconstrue for Licence; But I apprehend you, Sir, you would have us stay, till Usury reduce itself without Law: very fine! You maim us, throw us into a deep ditch, and cry, God help you.  T. M. 
Will you or any other Landlord sink his Rent, because his Tenants complain of hard pennyworths?  T. C. 
Are not Usurers ever the first to reproach Gentlemen at least with folly, for not sinking their Rents, if they but seem too dear for the Land? Are not all Landlords even now upon Abatement, and glad at any rates to get tenants, though surely not so sufficient as yours? Do they not freely discount for taxes and extraordinary burdens? And do not all good Land lords allow for bad times, nay even for very bad years? I tell you, Sir, I ever did, shall, nay, at my Peril, must sink my Rent, if the tenant produce but the tithe of those reasons, which most borrowers now may: For though I shall never admit, that letting of Land is Usury, yet will I not deny, that racking of Rents, and taking extreme advantage of strict Covenants is Extortion: And yet by the way, I must note, that the worst of Landlords will find it a harder matter thus to extort, than the best of Usurers doth, the trade of letting Land not being driven in the Dark; And there being, I take it, no procurement, continuance, double mortgages, or treble Bands-men in his case to be got; Nor other probable security, then barely the pennyworth, but the markets of Land being free and open, and the Values, to a trifle, publicly known and allowed.  T. M. 
That trade will regularly bear present Interest, who hath not observed, that the careful managers thereof have had a thriving time of it?  T. C. 
That trade will not regularly bear present Interest, who hath not observed, that the carefullest managers thereof, (if borrowers,) have been eaten out and undone? And that our old Foxes are so well aware of it, as to prefer English Mutton before outlandish Venison? However the main stress of this Argument, I must tell you, lies upon Land, for surely few but Landlords either do, or, now, can borrow considerably: To Land therefore the fall and taxing of Usury is most indispensably just and necessary; to trade, undeniably wholesome and profitable.  T. M. 
As for idleness sucking the Breasts of industry, 'tis no mor applicable to lending money upon a valuable consideration to them, who by industry and skill live thereon, then to my Landlords hiring his Farm to the Laborious Husbandman, etc.  T. C. 
When you produce me any one Text of Scripture, Church-canon, or Christian Sect, that deserves a civil name, disallowing the Rents of Land, or any one temporal law restraining them, your bold assertion shall be considered: I, on the other side, offer to prove, that the laws of this and many Countries, (how tender soever they were of Propriety and Freehold, as indeed it concerned them to be,) have, as they saw Occasion, from time to time, retrenched Usury without scruple, or saying so much as, by your leave, Mr. Usurer; Which, (notwithstanding your Categorical thesis,) shrewdly argues, that the justice and title of them hath not been reputed altogether the same; Nor doth the Usurer himself, I suppose, pretend to be our lawful Landlord, for than he would be readier to keep hospitality, serve upon Inquests, find Arms, repair Churches, and pay Taxes, then of late, methinks, he hath been.  T. M. 
Is it reasonable to imagine, that all men are of equal brains or education to traffic in one sort or other? etc.  T. C. 
You will prove anon, that borrowers have more brains, than lender's, though formerly you told them, in effect, that if they had any brains at all, they would not be borrowers: Truly 'tis a comfort still, thus to be cajoled into our ruin; and that though we find ourselves the poor, yet an Oracle, it seems, hath pronounced us the wiser: Sure, Apollo was of another mind, when he made my Alderman his Laureate; Nor doth six per Cent. I take it, much glory in the improvement of his Son's knowledge and experience, when he runs out, and borrows; Nor would any sneaking Usurer, I suppose, like to be taken at his word, and have a Guardian by the King assigned him, which methinks, were a charitable work, he having so slender a capacity with so fair an Estate; in which case, Landlords are of course, provided for; But, alas, too sure it is, that when a Usurer is made, there is commonly as good a Merchant marred, as most that walk the Exchange.  T. M. 
The present Interest, (admitting much were borrowed,) can be no just scarecrow to the builders, since all builders I have yet met with, may have eight, nine, or ten per Cent. and very good Rents for their ground besides.  T. C. 
I rejoice at your good news, though it be yet early day: But give me leave, Sir, from thence to observe, how signally trade having groaned under few or no new burdens, hath thriven and flourished, even in uncertain times, since the last fall of Usury; Whilst the Land is even sinking under the load of its chains; For, (not accounting losses and hazards, which perhaps would deserve other-like ensurence than your money,) three per Cent. I must tell you, goes far with us in the Country.  T. M. 
He that employs his own money, matters not much, whether it be six or four.  T. C. 
Quoth the good Huswife, we have all provisions of our own, and a fig for the Market, sure, it were happy for England, if Usurers were in all their affairs so indifferent.  T. M. 
It is a contradiction, that many lender's and low Interest live together in a declining Commonwealth.  T. C. 
You say very right, a Contradiction there is throughout, for where low Interest is, the State can scarce naturally decline, nor will there need much lending.  T. M. 
For the Credit of six per Cent. I will appeal to all the World, if the rebuilding of London goes not on much faster than could be reasonably imagined.  T. C. 
For the Credit of former abatements, you should say, and encouragement of future.  T. M. 
What Pity is it, I must conclude, that having examined, and found how little likelihood there is, that subduing Interest will increase the fruit and revenue of the Kingdom, we have small reason to hope, it will augment the revenue of the King.  T. C. 
Land will certainly be improved by it, if we may believe either reason, experience, or Authority; and, I suppose, what is good for the Land, is not bad for the Landlord; Trade will evidently be augmented by the instance of most flourishing Commonwealths, which have ever begun with it, and the proverb tells us, what is sauce for a Goose, is sauce for a Gander.  T. M. 
Your Expression of Land being in safe hands seems very Odd and dividing.  T. C. 
It is, I am sure, no new Maxim, that the Crown, (without competition of title) ever was, and probably would be safe in the majority of Landlords; Neither did, I suppose, our late experience disprove it: Doubtless in distracted times, they have most at stake, and lie most to pawn: Usurers and Pirates are own Countrymen.  

The pretended mischiefs briefly examined.  T. M. 
LOw Interest will draw the Treasure of the Nation into a few hands, and endanger the hoarding up of the same, etc.  T. C. 
Yes indeed Sir, money is dangerously hoarded in Holland, is it not? The Usurer, I must tell you, thanks God, he never did, nor shall wilfully bury his talon in that sense.  T. M. 
It will necessitate active young men with small stocks, (who are the best Merchants) to sell their goods at great loss, because they cannot stay for the best Market.  T. C. 
What an error was that of mine to think, that old experienced men with great stocks were the best Merchants? They, it seems, were ordained still to be Usurers; But what will you now say, if four per Cent should even disappoint their Fate?  T. M. 
It will expose an infinite number of Widows, Orphans, and other impotent persons to great want and extremity.  T. C. 
I remember oft to have seen a picture full of strange sights, very odd and uncouth to behold, viz. the horse riding the man, the Lawyer seeing the Client, the Mouse devouring the Cat, etc. 'Tis pity, say I, that of the Borrower oppressing the Usurer hath not yet been added; For if four per Cent. should suddenly pass, some think, it may come too late.  T. M. 
It will encourage our Gentry to run in debt, by making most of them bolder in borrowing, (if any one will lend.)  T. C. 
'Tis a comfort to hear you make an if of it already; Methinks you begin to relent and come to, as if you would have us hope, or not altogether despair: But surely, Sir, you are in very good jest, and will shortly persuade a man that hath the French disease, to reject his present cure, for fear of future claps.  T. M. 
It will oblige the Nobility and Gentry to provide greater portions for their younger Children.  T. C. 
Yes, and enable them too, I hope, after such Provision, to leave better Estates to their eldest Sons.  T. M. 
It will introduce a thousand tricks among the rank Usurers, Brokers, and Scriveners, whereby the hasty Borrower shall be indirectly wormed out of more money, then when Interest was at eight per Cent?  T. C. 
I doubt, they must pump hard for new ones: But hold a while, say I, raise but the intrinseal Value of our Lands, and let them do their worst; Double our security, and a fig for his empty threats: For if once the Devil were dead, we should not, I suppose, much regard Jackadandy.  T. M. 
Was not this Worshipful Brat of low Interest begot in the crafty noddle of a great moneyed man? etc.  T. C. 
That were, indeed, a mighty project, much like its opposite of raising Usury for the Borrowers case, maintained by some of our discretest Debtors: But the right Usurer, I take it, is not for merit or penance, and therefore sure would not mangle his own flesh.  T. M. 
It will cause the Dutch to withdraw their money from us to the great stop of Trade.  T. C. 
Tell me the story of eighty eight; Alas! That, God be thanked, was long since done to our hands by the fall of Interest to six per Cent. Yet, it seems, the old Mumpsimus runs still in some of our noddles; Well! since you have such a love to foreign chink, by all means, let Interest be raised to eight per Cent. for a year, to decoy some Stranger's money, and then seize it as a Deodand or stray; for under, I assure you, it will not come, if then: Now pray Sir, do you not observe, what a desperate stop of Trade we have ever since? Was it not a foul mistake of our good friend Mr. Manly so to extol the Riches of London page 43. Or have you the confidence still to maintain, that we have yet a Million of Dutch Money, because you find it easy to affirm, and think it hard to disprove? Consider, I beseech you, whither the present difference of our Rates could in reason tempt any sober Dutchman, (not reckoning factorage) to run so many risks as he must do; since besides the general hazards here, which you declare equal to an East-India Voyage, and worthy of 30 s. per 100 pound Insurance even amongst ourselves, he must likewise trust the sufficiency and integrity of his own Agent, in a degree to Dutchmen and Usurers very uneasy: But I am too serious for the subject; The very Notion of Trade, (for any Bulk of it) driven at Interest, is abominable, whither the Loan be foreign or domestic, with this gradual difference; that the one amounts to a ruinous tribute, the other to a dangerous Impost.  T. M. 
Men will not quickly borrow at the intended Rate, nor willingly sell their concernments, on reasonable terms, to such as have money, and so the building of London will be retarded.  T. C. 
Hath not the wisdom of the Law provided at least against such wilful defaulters, by a forfeiture and lapse of time, perfixed? And if building be so generally profitable, as you suppose, will any man, in case of disability, obstinately incur it by not selling? Nay will he not make hard shift to borrow upon security, which, I must tell you, is that which only, ever did, and ever shall command money? Something you would fain object, if you knew what.  T. M. 
The Gentry, who shall be in debt at the passing of such a Law, will be exposed to many and great Exigents; before they shall get clear of their Creditors, it being ten to one the Debtors estates will become so many sacrifices, ere any man will be found to come in to their Rescue, though Chancery, or the intended Act should allow them a considerable time for redemption; so that, I dare affirm, this Nation never saw such Seizures, Arrests, Extents, Executions, etc. as will infallibly follow upon passing such a Law, etc.  T. C. 
Is it not the known device of cruel and insulting pedants, to threaten their innocent and awful Fry with severe correction, if they tell tales out of school? Is it not the proper language of Orthodox Gaolers to scare their Prisoners with Gibbets or Dungeons, if they offer to attempt an escape? Even so, methinks, doth the Usurer treat his Poor Vassal and Tenant at will, the Borrower: If he do but mutter at the perpetual taxes and burdens even of his mortgaged Land, without any allowance, the finger or ferula is held up; Sirrah look to your carcase, or if a member of Parliament, the house will one day prorogue. If he presume to dispute the Justice or rate of Usury, and fainly appeal to his King and Country for relief; Hough man! What? break prison? But let the serpent hiss, so his sting be out; And what is the sting of Usury, (if at least it be nót all sting) but its disproportionable Rate? I myself have perhaps had my share of these menaces, and more I expect for this freedom of my Pen; But they are Music to me; For I was never yet, (I thank God) so routed and bereft of Judgement, as to distrust my Benefit by the fall of Interest: And I hope, Fear, the betrayer of reason, will not so dazzle and benumb any of our Patriots (being Englishmen, though Borrowers) as not to see and feel their own and the public concernment in it.  
And now, Sir, I hope, I have in good measure reasserted all the Benefits in my former Treatise propounded, by Abatement of Usury; and shown, that your Objections and Declamations upon the several heads thereof are either real mistakes, or flourishes and digressions: Your Appendix concerning the Valuation of our Coin I have declined, considering it as foreign to our dispute, and leaving it to be examined, (as occasion shall require) by some abler Penman, more versed in exchange, than I pretend to be: Offence, at least personal, I trust, I have given none, looking upon that as a paltry way of arguing: That I answer you under a Character, which I am persuaded you abhor, you will pardon me, in regard I could not otherwise well direct my speech; you, in the Conference, personating the Usurer, as I the Borrower: Other Animadversions, or Expressions, how keen or resenting soever they be, the bitterness of my subject will indemnify. If either you have new matter to allege; or can reinforce your former Arguments, or show me any thing material, by me omitted in my reply, I candidly invite you to rejoin, with promise, upon good evidence on your side, to lay down the Buckler, and recant: But if nothing more be offered, save endless repetitions and unfriendly cavils, I shall fairly spare my paper, and demur in Judgement.    

A Brief Appendix touching the proposal of taxing Money at Interest.  
FOr a more forcible inducement to this great work of discovering sums at Interest, and subjecting them to all manner of Public Taxes and Burdens, I shall endeavour further to clear the business, by showing, that it is most honest, necessary, and practicable without inconvenience.  
The Justice of it is, methinks, so apparent, that I durst almost refer it to the Usurers own conscience, (and it had need be a very plain matter, (saith our late reverend Bishop Sanderson,) that one would refer to the conscience of an Usurer,) for the question, modestly put, is, I take it, barely this, whether it be reasonable, that one part of the Kingdom should constantly bear the Burdens of the whole; To which the ready answer seems to be, that it is, (in Mr. Manlies' phrase,) monstrous unequal; Even to such degree, that I might well say, no wonder if it hath not thriven: Neither, having been proposed to divers Champions of Usury, (to give them their due,) hath any of them hitherto offered aught against it: Only they have gravely demurred; and therefore I look that time and thought may produce somewhat to disprove, discountenance, or, at least, divert it: For we live in an acute age, which hath much improved the Orators Maxim, oportet posse contraria persuadere, by adding, etiam velle: To excite virtue or explode Vice is now but a Schoolboys theme; He is, indeed a wit, that argues packing the Cards more honourable (because more ingenious,) then square play; can maintain Felony better than others can do Property, prove the true man robbed the thief, and say more, perhaps, for keeping a Brothel-house, than I can do for building an Almshouse; Thus, since the publishing of my Reply, our Saviour's questioning the slothful servant, for not putting his Talon to the Bankers, was mainly urged to convince me of the lawfulness and expedience of Usury, leaving me to infer, (for follow it needs must,) that Usury is necessary to salvation, the party there, (if you take the literal sense,) being evidently condemned for not being an Usurer; A clear case, one would think, and past control: And I expect some or other should shortly start this Doctrine, that it is the special duty or privilege of Christians to practise Usury, since Mahomet hath forbidden it: Thus my learned adversary hath in his Preface asserted, that an Unthrift, Drunkard, or Whoremaster, (and consequently, no doubt, an Oppressor, Highwayman, or Curpurse,) may pass for a tolerable Commonwealths-man, (if an Englishman born,) because every penny comes to the Natives; Thus he hath convinced us Page 2. That there cannot well be a more seasonable Almsdeed than an Usurious loan; Thus, in the same Page, he acquaints us, how the restraint of Usury is the defrauding of honest Creditors; that the State, (at least for shame of the World,) may not still persist in picking pockets, (and that with a vengeance,) as twice, it seems, already they have done; Thus he confidently assures us, Page 3. the lender got his money by great industry, and thereupon surmises that he lends it to a Trader, who certainly gains fifteen per Cent. whereas we thought, he had gotten part of it by happy conduct, and lent most of it to a Gentleman or Farmer, who never makes three, and who, by his own admission, must be thereby undone: Thus he possesses us, Sect 2. That Improvement is, in effect, ridiculous, implying, that it may shortly become a kind of Project in the Farmer, to dung or fence his Farm, because, it seems, the wisest and worthiest improvement is that of Interest money, whereas I took that of Land to be the more natural and commendable of the two: Thus he blesses himself at raising the Purchase of Land by fall of Interest, a question, which, I presumed, might soon be determined, (as to the Value of leases,) by comparing some of our yearly Almanacs, made, when money was at eight per Cent. with others, since it came to six: Thus he intimates, Sect 3. That the stinting of wages would instantly cure us, but the subduing of Usury never, whereas I simply imagined, that in the reducing of money, wages, (being money,) were best reduced, viz. insensibly, without exception or prejudice, nay to vast and universal benefit: Thus he admits, Page 18. That wages about London are raised by mere confederacy, which makes me wonder, the Welsh, and Northern men should not join with them, conclude, that, most callings being combined in the same league, Catiline's conspiracy was not to be mentioned in respect of this, and only comfort myself, that Landlords in the Country, for aught I hear, continue loyal, and are not of the Plot: Thus he makes it appear, Page 33. that we want wherewithal to purchase, whereas a classical Author, Page 35. makes it likewise appear, that there are prodigious sums at command: And lastly, (for there is no end of his witty Paradoxes,) thus, with a delicate flourish, Page 17. he demonstrates, that the substracting of one third from Usury, and adding it to industry, (which I took to be greatly important in all undertake and affairs,) signifies no more to trade, than the wrens pissing in the Ocean. Now since all these Fundamentals are so cleared and reconciled, who would despair, that the same, or some other genius of the like sagacity may not henceforth infallibly teach us, that the redress of our hardships will no more import to the benefit of Land, then, belike, the rate of Interest doth in Manufacture, nay further inform us, that honesty is destructive of Commonweal, and equal taxing monstrous unequal?  
For the importance, and indeed necessity, of this Proposal, hear the late excellent Prelate, before cited, in his Sermon on the nature of callings, where, having directed three main inquiries, 1. whether the thing be simply and in itself lawful, 2. whether it be lawful so as to be made a calling, 3. whether it will be profitable or rather hurtful to the Commonwealth, and shrewdly mated the Usurer in the first two, he thus proceeds as to the third Article; But say yet our Usurer should escape, at least in the judgement of his own hardened conscience, from both these rules, as from the Sword of Jehu and Hazael, there is yet a third rule, like the Sword of Elisha to strike him Stone dead, and he shall never be able to escape that; Let him show, wherein his calling is profitable to humane society; He keeps no hospitality, If he have but a barred chest and a strong lock, to keep his God and his Scriptures, (his Mammon and his parchments in,) he hath Houseroom enough; He fleeceth many, but clotheth none; He biteth and devoureth, but eateth all his morsels alone; He giveth not so much as a Crumme, no not to his dearest Broker or Scrivener, only where he biteth, he alloweth them to scratch what they can for themselves: The King, the Church, the Poor are all wronged by him, and so are all that live near him; In every common charge, he slippeth the Collar, and leaveth the burden upon those that are less able: It were not possible, Usurers should be so bitterly inveighed against by sober Heathen writers, so severely censured by civil and Canon laws so uniformly condemned by godly Fathers and Counsels, so universally hated by all men of all sorts, and in all ages and Countries, as Histories and Experience manifest they have been and are, if their practice and calling had been any way profitable, and not indeed every way hurtful and incommodious both to private men, and public societies: If any thing can make a calling unlawful, certainly the Usurer's calling cannot be lawful. Thus preached that accurate Casuist near fifty years since, when Land-taxes, properly so called, were not in being, when the Militia was rather an Exercise and Holiday sport then a burden, and when our Parochial duties were not, I dare say, generally the fourth part in bulk to what they now are; For my Author himself tell us, Page 25. that in his own Parish within these five and thirty years, the maintenance of the poor is swelled from six or seven Pounds per Annum to above an hundred, which is at least sixteen for one, even near a great road, adjoining to Chatham, and in the very mouth of trade: And in most places of decayed clothing, it is too well known, the rates for the poor run from three to five shillings in the Pound, (and still, like a creeping soar, they spread,) wherewith the Land is frequently charged, though untenanted and unstocked; However, if such Farms be eased, (as surely 'tis but reason they should,) still the neighbours are the more oppressed, and so must needs gallop into the same ruin: As for the variety of other rates and duties, the reckoning hath therein been likewise so inflamed, that, by a modest estimate, I cannot judge Interest of money to be fairly indebted to Land, upon the Balance of our public burdens, so little as twenty Millions principal, since the year 1641. It is therefore high time, at length, to make some hue and cry after that notable goodfellow, which hath so oft, so largely, nay gallantly robbed us; And if we cannot get him to refund, yet at least to look better to the bottom of the bag, where his fingers are, methinks, as busy as ever.  
That it is practicable without inconvenience, to me appears by this certain measure, that it having been already propounded to many intelligent persons of different bias, all of which found themselves concerned, there was never yet any thing moved, which received not its present answer; Neither indeed do I see, what can be colourably objected: For what, I pray, is less difficult, than that Mortgages being local and fixed, their taxes and duties should attend the Estate, and be of course defalked by the debtor, (to his great ease,) as well as now by the Tenant? And that the rates of other sums and debts should always follow the person and present habitation of the Creditor, even as now, in some small measure, they do? If any pretend, it is hard for the Creditor to be so paenally compelled to tax himself; I answer, what remedy? Since his debtor dares not, for fear of trouble, his neighbours cannot for want of evidence, and himself will not for love of gain; For should he not, in good conscience, all along have done it without compulsion, at least not have avoided it by shifts, Covenants and threats? If they plead, men's ability or weakness will be thereby discovered, is it not fit, say I, it should? Doth not my Adversary himself press for such discovery, Page 5? But what can this discover? Surely not very many personal debts, and for Mortgages, either they are now known, or it is pity they are not: If they allege, that it is too shrewd for Creditors to tax certainly for uncertain debts, I ask, whether there be almost any Gentleman of Estate in England, who hath not taxed for Land, when either by want of Tenants, loss of Rents, or divers other charges incident to Estates, it hath yielded him little or nothing, and whether all this while the lender have not thought it very just and commodious for the half-ruined borrower, (even in such extreme cases,) to pay likewise his Taxes, as my Author himself frankly confesses, Page 36. But some will yet, perhaps, further object, that there the Annual income only is ventured, here the Capital: My Reply then is, that debts upon personal security are either clearly secured, desperate, or doubtful: Of the clear, (which must needs include all considerable sums, the Creditor in great loans having always divers strings to his bow,) there can be no question made, those being equivalent to mortgages, and of double value, in point of steady receipt, to the generality of our Rents: Debts really desperate should, methinks, without more ado, be quitted, the continuance of their claim serving only to wound charity, molest the insolvent, hurt and disturb the Commonwealth by rendering many of its members useless, malcontent and fit only for mischief; As for doubtful, (and therefore hopeful,) debts, whereof far the greater number, by reason of suretyships, are finally insured with a witness, do not they who now sue for them effectually, venture a large Tax to Attorneys, Lawyers, Officers and Sheriffs? And why should they grudge the Commonwealth its due to preserve their own? Besides they have always, at the worst, their ready amends in their own hand; For may they not honestly purchase and turn their biting Usury into a healing Rent, to the just relief of their neighbour, benefit of their Country, and quiet of their conscience? It being now our greatest and most general complaint, that there is so much Land upon sale, and so few chapmen, seconded by my Author himself, Page 33. Which way soever I look, the objections are either frivolous or inconsiderable to our grievance and prospect; For I dare maintain, that a tax of three shillings in the Pound, indifferently charged, will not now so bite the Land by embasing its fund, and consequently cannot finally so much prejudice the State, as a tax of twelve pence in the Pound, partially imposed, must inevitably do: From whence I infer, that (comparing our present condition and rates with the great likelihood of their future growth, by reason of the dangerous increase of our neighbours in shipping,) whosoever argues, that Interest of money should not, or cannot be taxed, in effect, rings his Countries passing-bel; For it is notorious, that no good Plant ever did or can thrive together in the same soil with Usury; Which, (being thus exempted and cherished,) infects our Land much worse than the sowing it with mustardseed. Wherefore, as a fair adieu to the Usurer, I shall now take my leave of him with this hearty and Christian admonition, that he first pluck the beam, (of avarice and sordid partiality,) out of his own eye, and then, perhaps, he may see clearer (then as yet, methinks, he doth) to take the more (of excess or sloth,) out of his Brother's eye.  
FINIS.   

ERRATA.  
PAge 1. line ult. for concluded, r. conclude. pag. 11. line 29. for selling, r. telling. pag. 12. l. 31. for Gentleman, r. Gentlemen. pag. 13. l. 19 for enlarge a Navigation, r. enlarge Navigation. pag. 4. l. 20. for Broils, after them) hath and, r. Broyles, and after them) hath.