Plain English, IN A FAMILIAR CONFERENCE Betwixt three Friends, RUSTICUS, CIVIS, AND VERIDICUS, Concerning the Deadness OF OUR MARKETS. Offered as an Expedient to serious Consideration, and for the general good of Gentry and Commons. LONDON, Printed by T. I. and are to be sold by Henry Million at the Bible in Fleet street, 1673. Plain English, In a Familiar CONFERENCE, etc. C. Welcome Gentlemen, In troth I have longed for another Meeting in pursuance of our late Discourse, it hath so run in my Mind ever since, I mean the Reducing of Interest: Upon my Life, 'tsend all our Widows and Orphans a begging together, R. Must our Policy then be wholly squared to the Advantage of those whom you please to call Widows and Orphans? Or admitting only such concerned, Would you not have them buy and sell by the same Measure that others do? V. Indeed you might with the same Reason propose▪ That Widows Lands should be Let for double it's worth; all Necessaries sold to Orphans at half the Market-price; and that they might be liable to no public Charges. C. You make a Jest of it, but 'tis a Case that deserves rather your Pity. V. We read of Depopulations by Sheep more savage than Wolves, and which devour whole Hamlets: Are not some of your Widows and Orphans akin to those innocent Creatures? C. How uncharitably you talk! V. But consider it seriously; Are there verier Drones, nay Cankers, in the Commonwealth, than most of those that pass under that Character? They possess goodly Revenues, clogged with no public Ch●●ge or Service, and brought to their Hands without Trouble, or so much as Thought; which they commonly spend in Foreign Superfluity; and so become the Ringleaders of that Excess and Sloth, now so much complained of. C. You do not, I hope, take all our Widows and Orphans for such as you here describe. V. God forbid: There are, I grant, many of them Exemplary for their Sobriety and Virtue: But, as Rusticus said, 'twill not follow that the Commonwealth itself must truckle to such a Handful in comparison. C. Surely that Tribe is not so small as you fancy: And you will allow them very deserving, at least of public Compassion. V. If you would look upon Usury with both your Eyes at once, and count, as well the real Widows and Orphans that now groan under it, you would find, that perhaps it makes three Holes for one it mends: In plain English, to swell the superfluous Income of a few, many Orphans are daily cast up to the wide World; Such inequality on all sides attending an inconvenient Rate of Interest. C. I perceive all your Cry is against Usury, as if that were now our only Grievance: But you may remember, at our last Meeting I offered to name divers common Abuses, which have possibly hurt us more than Usury, and would therefore be principally reoressed. V. Well, I must lay Odds beforehand, they are but of the same nature with those I then mentioned, viz. Effects and Symptoms, mistaken for Causes. C. To me there's nothing clearer, than that the Lazyness of our Poor, Insolence of Servants, and excessive Wages, are now our principal Grievances. R. Our Gentry then, it seems, may hope at length to be quiet: But to say the truth, 'tis high time; for they are in a fair way to reform themselves, as Tradesmen may shortly feel. V. For my part, I ever took it, that the Noise of our Excess was but like my Ladies laying all the blame upon poor Button. C. Nay I must still condemn many of our Gentry for squandring their Estates, and Running in debt as they do. R. I protest I can look ten miles round, and scarce spy a Prodigal amongst them: But it seems, 'tis the Art of scolding to cry Whore first. V. In our most thriving times, to my knowledge, we had twice as may real Unthrifts as now, and not half the good Husbands; 'tis not with us then, to be sure, that Luxury now keeps its Court. And therefore our Censors may do well, if they please, to reflect a little homewards. C. But divers may formerly have transgressed in that kind, who would now Redeem their Error, by making a Virtue of Necessity, when for them perhaps, it's too late. V. To whom do we owe that sovereign Thrift of one Meal a day, but to Persons of the highest Quality, especially Compounders? R. What you call Luxury, Mr. Civis, I know not: sure I am, most of our Gentry have long done, and still do their utmost, in the Fall of their Rents, to preserve their Ranks; But find, that even their Thrift tends to their undoing. C. How, in God's name should that be? R. Marry, in endeavouring to preserve themselves, they destroy their Tenants. C. 'tis great pity indeed, they will not live hospitably in the Country, as their Ancestors did. V. You would do them a singular Favour, if you would please to teach them your knack of living in the same fashion with less than half the Revenue. R. Most of them, no question, might again bovy up, if you of the City could be persuaded to give them Credit at Conscionable Rates, for the stocking of their Farms, Tax fairly with them, and purchase part of their Estates at tolerable prices. C. However, would to God, they were sensible, how they Ruin their Families and the Country, by skulking here, as too many of them do: What they get in the Hundred, I am confident, they lose in the Shire. R. Troth, they are even too sensible of it, but it seems can find no better Fence for your flails. V. Soft, Mr. Civis, Do not at one breath condemn our Gentry for spending, and sparing too. C. What think you of the Lazyness of our Poor? Is't not a National Infelicity? V. Find us steady Employment, say they, and then spare us not: But till then, pardon us for driving our Bargains as we can afford it, or at least for not working without Hire. C. I look you should urge the Reducing of Money upon this Occasion. V. You have Reason, for in Effect, the Poor of all Nations under Heaven are more or less idle or industrious, according to the current Rate of their Interest: And there's no such Antidote to expel that Venom of sloth, either in Poor or Rich. C. If Laws be not executed, What can we hope for? V. Coercive Laws, I must tell you, without suitable Policies and Encouragements, are but like the Contrivance of strict Discipline for unpaid Armies: But in earnest, 'tis Pity you are not a Justice yourself to try. C. You would fain palliate it; But certainly, our greatest Plagues at this time are, the incorrigible Ideness of our Poor, and excessive Rate of Wages. V. Was the stinting of Wages ever successfully attempted in any Trading-Countrey? C. I marvel it should not, being of such Importance to Trade. V. Surely, their varying every where, as they do, argues them to be of a boundless Nature. C. You still affect Singularity. V. How can you herein tax me with it? there being as well a personal, as a local difference in the Case: For as one Horse of the same size, will sooner bring Ten Pounds, than an●ther Five; one Farmers Corn is better worth five Shillings, than his Neighbours four: So one Servant, Labourer, or Artificer, may well deserve double the Wages that another doth in the same Place. C. Somewhat, I'm confident, might and would be done in't. V. Truly, nothing at all, but regulate Interest, and let Nature work: For let us reflect on our former Laws of this nature, What have they signified?: And consider our late Act for the Militia, which assigns twelve Pence a day, as a general and standing Hire for those that serve with other men's Arms: How hath it been observed? C. The greater Fault somewhere. V. 'Tis in the very nature of Wages, which are so variable, that perhaps the same Rate, being but half Pay in Country's near London, proves double Hire in the remoter Parts of England. C. If there be no other Redress for Wages▪ A Fig for all other Expedients. V. Wages are Money▪ And therefore in abating Money, you virtually abate Wages: You reduce six, to Four Pounds a year of real Value; and consequently, eighteen Pence to twelve Pence a day: But this is not all, it hath a double Edge, for in raising the Price of Land, it ipsa facto quickens and raises all other Markets; and so subdues Idleness of course, without noise: Servants and Workmen being ever noted to be tractable enough, when Provisions bear a Price. C. Nay, If you have no better way to curb their Insolence and Exaction, we must bid Adieu to Trade. V. The corrupting of the People is a certain and genuine Effect of embasing the Land; for 'tis one and the same Mischief which oppresses Masters, and debauches Servants, viz Cheapness without Plenty. C. Cheapness without Plenty! Troth I ever took them for the same thing. V. 'Twas a plain Mistake; For I assure you, they are vastly different. C. Do you not take our present Plenty for a singular Blessing? V. Such Plenty is nothing else throughout, but the pampering of Sloth, by starving of Industry. C. Well, 'twere a strange Abuse, if Cheapness should heighten Wages. V. 'Twere a Miracle, if it should not here: For why should we suppose that any subsisting with ease, and no way depending, will work or serve but on their own terms? C. But how can Wages rise, or indeed, hold in the Country, Tillage so much declining? R. 'Twere indeed as broad as 'tis long, could our Charges be apportioned to our Prices: If you Artisans and men of Profession could but comply with our Rents, we should never complain: No, 'tis their Encroachment, concurrent with the failing of our Markets, which mortally wounds us. V. To say the Truth, 'tis the Growth and Grandeur of London, which thus imposes on our drooping Tillage and Manufacture, to their Undoing. C. Are you bound to imitate our Follies? V. The Contagion is unavoidable: For how should those, at least in the adjacent Countries, expect to regulate their Wages, whilst you in the City are continually raising yours, as you must, and indeed may well afford, though we cannot without Ruin. C. Cheapness without Plenty, with your Pardon, found'st oddly; Whence, I pray, should it proceed? V. From this capital Inconvenience. That in a necessitous time, the Measure of selling is not the Worth or Cost of the Commodity sold, but the Sellers Exigence. C. A special Maxim! For how is the Value of any thing known but in the Sale? V. Have you never observed, How one that is clouded sells a fair Jewel, or a goodly Lordship? C. You will not, I hope, frame a general Rule from a particular Case. V. But by private Distresses, we may much more judge of public necessities: Borrowers and Sellers, I assure you, now live under one unkind Planet, the Seller being no less a Servant to the Buyer, than the Borrower is to the Lender. R. Indeed, 'tis generally noted, That most men now adays, either borrow to shun the Precipice of Selling, or sell, to avoid the Gulf of Borrowing; So that all things follow the Measures of Land, and dance with it to the Usurer's Pipe, only the Fate of borrowing commonly lights heavier on the Landlords; that of Selling, lights on poor Tenants and Artisans most. V. To speak freely, What can we judge of our present Traffic (managed at such an uneasy Rate of Interest) But that much of it is excessive Usury turned the wrong side outwards? Nay, the Trading Extortion, perhaps, bites hardest of any: For Creditors seem confined by. Law, whilst Chapmen, methinks, know no bounds: And Sellers, having generally less command of Credit than Borrowers, are therefore more exposed to Extremities. C. To me you talk Hebrew. V. There is certainly an Evil (though secret) ferment in the oppressive Rate of Usury, which in effect poisons all our Commerce, one Vein or Exigence and Extortion running through out. C. Do you take all Sellers to be Bankrupts? V. The greatet part to be sure are now necessitous: And that's enough to mar the Market. C. To what Cause will you impute this state of necessity? V. Alas, The Groundwork was laid in the Impoverishment of our Gentry by the late War, though since notoriously amplified by a double grievance obvious enough, viz. the unequal Rate of our Interest in respect of foreign Trade, and that of Taxes among ourselves, which, methinks, have fairly built upon that Foundation. V. 'Twould make a sick man smile to hear some fore-handed Gentlemen, as we call them, how scornfully they defy borrowing, when already most of them pay Interest and Brokage too with a Vengeance. C. Can they pay Interest then without borrowing? V. Whoever now hath Rents to receive, Lands to let▪ Corn or Stock to vend, must look to drink deep of that Cup▪ whilst Interest runs higher with us than with our trading Neighbours and Land alone, undergoes in effect, all public Burdens. C. It's a payment, God be thanked, they feel not. R. Just thus, for all the world, do many of our wise Landlords slight our Rates for the poor, and other Duties charged on Land, because forsooth, they immediately light on the Tenant. V. Faith, this is a melancholy subject: for as matters now go, I see not, how any thing but extreme Scarcity can yield the Farmer a tolerable and saving price for his Grain: And where, do you think, that must end? R. In all likelihood, such a Discouragement and Disabling of our Tillage, must produce a dangerous Dearth, whenever it pleases God to send ill Seasons or Harvests, which after so many kindly years, we may now of course expect. C. I wish that were our greatest Danger. V. Flatter not yourself: Cheapness and Dearth are nearer akin than you dream; the Cheapness of Commodity proceeding mostly from the Dearth of current Money, as that, again, doth from the mean Value of Land: Our Chronicle tells us, That in Queen Mary's Reign, Wheat the same year was sold for a Noble and six Pence the Bushel: A vast Disproportion, parallel perhaps to four Nobles and two shillings of ours. C. That Story, I suppose, will hardly concern our Times. V. God forbid it should; though 'tis a clear Case, our Cheapness now proceeds from nothing less than Plenty of Commodity: For I'm confident, there hath scarce ever been less in the Granary: And surely the Prospect of our next Harvest is not over-hopeful: Besides, we are told of great Dearths in foreign Parts; so as, for aught appears, had we Grain, we might have vent enough: Thus all things, one would think, should conspire to give Corn a considerable Price at this time: And yet, he that would now sell any Quantity of Wheat, can scarce get four Nobles the Quarter: Neither Stores, Crops not Prices: Guess, Mr. Civis, at the reason. C. 'Tis quite out of my Element. V. You must be blind not to see, how our Markets are enthralled by Necessity, and the Benefit thereof wholly ravished from the poor Farmer, who as to avoid a wretched Bartering and Retailing Trade with his indigent Neighbours, that now live but from Hand to Mouth, falls a Prey to some usurious Interloper. C. I should rather wish him to keep his Grain for better Prices, which Time and Patience no doubt would bring him. V. Have you not heard, That the Steed may starve whilst the Grass grows? Who, I beseech you, in the mean time shall pay his two Rents and make good his Seasons? You would do him a Courtesy either to bail him for the present, or secure him from Loss in the upshot: His Fruits being perishable, and our Markets now adays seldom mending: For indeed, the first, how low soever, are generally noted to be the best. C. I never heard that to be observed before, nor can I devise any good Reason for it. V. Can it be, but forbearance of Sale must still further aggrevate the Sellers necessity? R. Pox on't, I'm sure 'twas not wont to be so: We had once a kind of Market in every Parish, and could utter most of our Commodities at home: We were not then forced to carry our Corn God knows whither, deal with God knows whom, sell for God knows what, to be paid God knows when: But are we to marvel at this want of Vent, when so many good Seats and Farms, every where, stand empty, the Crows being Tenants, and the Rooks Landlords? V. Never look to see things mend, but still further decline, whilst the Land itself is so cheap, and the revenues of money and Land at so wide a distance; for if the Springhead be brackish, how can the streams be wholesome? R. Carry your compost still from the soil, say we in the Country, and see what your Farms will come to. C. Belike, you imagine low Interest will quicken your vent, and mend your Prices. V. It glories in nothing more than the due balancing and fixing of Markets: For want of which in languishing Countries they float, and are bandied from one extreme to another, always either choked or pined; now shivering, as it were, with treacherous cheapness, anon burning with grievous Dearth. C. Quickness of Markets, no doubt, were a great Felicity to us at this time▪ but will low Interest, think you, produce it? R. Will you put us to prove▪ that by the fall of Money, all things bought with Money must rise? V. 'Tis a plain case, Land, like a Primum Mobile of Commerce, sways the lesser Orbs: So as by a natural Sympathy and Symmetry as it were of parts with the whole: wheresoever Land is cheap or dear, all the native Commodities are cheap or dear with it; and whatsoever depresses or exalts the Fund itself, accordingly embases or ennobles its Fruits, either affecting them with a mean and contingent Price, as in Colonies, or with a considerable and constant Value, as in flourishing Countries. R. Indeed 'tis remarkable, that the Prices of our Corn and cattle have all along ebbed and flowed with that of Land: The same deadly Exigence, which hath driven the Freeholder to part with his Estate at half the Value, constraining likewise the Farmer to expose his Fruits at a Rate, even beneath what they cost him. C. I perceive yoa are all for Land. V. So would you be too, did you but consider, that Land is eminently all things else: I have heard it notably averred, that two years Purchase gained or lost in the Price of Land, doth ipso facto augment or impair the Capital of this Kingdom more than the Value of all our Cash, and other Goods together, (Stock upon the Land excepted.) C. Sure you expect a Fee from the Landlords. V. Some others, perhaps, may soon be as sensible as the Landlords themselves, what an immediate Character of decay the fall of Land stamps on the Commonwealth, what a fatal and contagious Cheapness and Penury always attends it! R. Methinks 'tis of prime Importance to this Argument. That the whole burdens of Excise or Impost, however designed, now certainly light on the Part already grieved, viz. the Land, as Humours resort to a Bruise. C I ever took it, that Excises and Imposts fell on the Consumer, I'm sure it hath been generally so received. V. 'Tis then a vulgar Error, for the Merchant informs us, that high Duties are an Embasement to any Commodity, amounting to a kind, of Prohibition. C. Yet I have heard able Merchants wish, the Customs were taken off from foreign Trade, either in whole, or at least in part, and a Recompense otherwise charged, viz. by an easy Pound Rate upon Land, or moderate Excise. R. The same Notion have I met with from Traders, and once from a worthy Gentleman. V. Were Interest roundly reduced, and Money brought into the Tax, it might do rarely well, but what, indeed, almost could then miscarry? R. So I answer them, yet still they affirm, that even as things now stand, the Country would chiefly reap the Benefit of it. V. Beshrew their Partiality: But in earnest, Can they think us such Fools to be so imposed on? Let them go preach at Barbadoes, and Virginia, what a Lift it would give to their Trade, if additional Duties were laid on Sugars and Tobacco's, certainly Land-Taxes (besides the ruinous Clog of our Inheritances, where continued) are dangerous Imposts upon all growth at the first hand, and no way now to be born, without the regulating of Interest. R. Nay, I ever disrelisht the Proposal, for indeed, common sense dictates, that public Burdens are far more comfortably laid upon foreign Superfluities, viz. Wine, Silk, Spice, etc. than upon our native Commodities, viz, Corn, Wool, Flesh, etc. All which are evidently taxed in the Land: And therefore so to transfer the Customs, what were it but like the rash Cure of a sore Leg, by driving back the Humour, to the hazard of life? V. Besides, 'tis supposed, the very maintenance of our Poor, alone considered, is already, in point of Charge at least double to all the Burdens of foreign Trade: That of the Church, by Tithes and other Duties, more than treble: And yet, perhaps, these are not half the Encumbrances of Land. C. Well, 'tis thought by knowing men to be a wholesome Expedient. V. It may prove so in time, but never till Usury be tamed, without public Ruin: For consider of what Consequence it must be for poor Farmers still to encounter with bad Markets; Alas, 'Tis nothing but overcharging the Land hath already brought us to this pass. C. I ever took you to be a zealous Advocate for Trade, but find you rather its Adversary. V. A fair and well-grounded Trade advances Land, and therefore cannot be enough honoured and encouraged: whereas our present Traders can subsist with no less profit than must undo the Country. R. 'Tis too manifest indeed, that without grinding the Farmer and Artificer, our Merchant could scarce abide any foreign Market, but being, as he oftimes is, sorely bitten, he licks himself whole with a Witness at their Cost, easily trampling where the Hedge is low▪ So that there all our Misery's centre, as heavy things natuaally sink to the bottom▪ V. This take for an infallible Rule: The immoderate Benefit of Traders hath an evil Aspect, and is inconsistent with good Trade; for light Gains, we say, makes the Purse heavy, which Rule holds more currently in the national, than in the personal Concernment. C. Do you grudge the Merchant's Gains, or would you have them limited? V. I only wish them more regular, and doubtless had we a just Rate of Interest, they would need no other limits; but now, to be sure, where the Traders benefit is vast, the poor Country pays the Reckoning; since the Market abroad affords it not, as our good Neighbours the Dutch will inform us. C. These are but Notions. V. Nay, there's nothing in proof more familiar, for to instance in our Vent of Corn; Suppose good English Wheat now carry eight Shillings the Bushel in the Mediterranean, where we read of so much scarcity in our weekly Gazettes: If the Merchant here give five, his Profit is very competent, yet consistent with a Livelihood to the Farmer: But if he lad, as I doubt he doth, at three, nay, oftimes under, he, indeed, may soon thrive, if his Stock be his own, but our Tillage must certainly droop; the same Reason holds in our Manufactures. C. Where all this while doth the Sho●e wring? R. As to the Sale either of our Lands or Goods, there is now one general Complaint, viz. that of many Sellers to a few Chapmen; not to be redressed with such a Retrenchment of Interest, as shall oblige our Usurers to purchase or trade in good earnest. V. In Holland, we know▪ Money being cheap and Land dear, mighty Stocks, even the whole Estates of wealthy and wise men are generally poured into Commerce, with profit suitable to low Interest, and great Thrift necessarily attending it, but with certain and prodigious Vent: Whereas here the able Merchant dallies with Trade, contenting himself with the Credit and outside of his Profession, and dealing only with a small Stock to his private Ease and Advantage, but to public decay: As for the Bulk of his Estate, 'tis managed at Interest, or at best laid out on some easy purchase of Land: Were't not for these helps at Maw, to be sure, our Traders would long since have swallowed low Interest, perhaps more greedily, than the very Farmer or Landlord. R: We find it, indeed, to our Cost, scarce any Traffic comes amiss to the Fleming; he under-sells his Neighbours, even in their own Commodities: Whilst we, on the other side, are confined to a few Trades, being forced to take his Leave, and quit divers of the greatest Bulk and Advantage to the public; for such are commonly those that yield small Benefit to Traders. V. Nay, for a clear Demonstration, what the cheapness of Money effects, he can afford to furnish us with our own Corn hoarded divers years; the Sale whereof, few of our Farmers can at all forbear: To see such a Spot of Ground undergo such Burdens, equip such Fleets, maintain such Wars, repair such Losses, one would think it should make their Neighbours enamoured of low Interest. C. 'Tis supposed, the Dutch have a world of other Arts and Advantages for Trade beyond us. V. Some they had need to have to carry it as they do, but this is their Mother-policy, which gives them so much the start of us, nay, which gives life to all the rest. This, no doubt, is the very Hinge upon which they all move: They subsist by endeavour, we thrive by sloth; their Merchants are Merchants indeed, Ours only in countenance. C. Will you blame men for playing the best of their Game? V. 'Tis pity, I'm sure, it should be so; yet I must needs partly acquit them; for in Countries, where Interest runs higher than with their Trading Neighbours, small Dealings are commonly gainful, whereas vast Stocks are scarce to be employed in Trade without ruinous hazard; it being, indeed, in the nature of high Interest, to make the Gains of Merchandise great, but altogether contingent; in that of low, to render them moderate, but withal, certain. R. What a parboiled Traffic do we drive in the mean time! such a sickly and languishing Trade may well prove Hectic to the Commonwealth. C. You yourself have often noted from the Advancement of the Customs, and other the like Measures, that our Trade hath long been, and still is upon increase: How doth this suit with the languishing Trade you complain of? V▪ The late increase of Customs and of our Trade in bulk, we owe partly to the Growth of our Plantations, but principally, I doubt, to the fatal cheapness of our Land▪ and its Fruits, it being in effect but a Web spun from our own Bowels, and a Pyramid erected on the Farmer's decay; though therewith 'tis slow and scarce discernible, like the growth of Dwarves and stunted Trees▪ whereas the low Rate of Interest in Holland, and the late notable Abatement of it in Sweden, renders their Advancement in Trade and Shipping as conspicuous as the Sun in its Noonday Brightness: Now if we stand still whilst our Neighbours thus advance, the old Rule, Non progredi est regredi, may (all things considered) prove our Case. C. Is't possible, the odds of a little Interest Money should be of such moment? V. Is't possible a Tradesman should ask that Question, who daily sees how a Grain turns the Scales? And therefore cannot be to learn, wh●t a Change must ensue from the difference of a third part in our R●te of Interest, since by it all Contracts are weighed, measured, and finally governed: Surely high Interest must dangerously affect all our Dealings, and especially the minds of men, who acting rationally, and not being troubled with squeamishness of Conscience, cannot but prefer Ease and Certainty before Pains and Hazards, though the benefit were equal, which generally, I presume, it is not. R. Nay, but in the matter if self, (as you said before) betwixt trading at a Rate above or beneath the Market; be the difference never so little, the general Disproportion is vast. The one rowing, as it were, with Wind and Tide; the other, against both; the one being sure of current Vent for the greatest Fraughts; the other running manifest hazard of bad Market for the smallest. C. I'm sure, we celebrate those for flourishing and happy times, when less than half the Trade served us that now we drive. V. To advance in a small Estate, is far more hopeful and cheerful, than to decline in a great. C. Remember Interest was at 10 per Cent. in that which we reckon our Golden Age. V. And, forget not, if you please, how the Case is since altered with us, by the late War athome, and the general Peace abroad, by the excessive growth of Holland, and by the Necessity of several Impositions for the support of the Government. C. It was once your judgement, that Land and Trade could have no divided Interest. V▪ Land and Trade, to be sure, cannot: But Land and Traders▪ methinks, may. C. What would you be at? All never did, nor could thrive; and if some now do, what matter to the public, who the parties be? V. With your favour, if a few, and those idle Persons only swagger, whilst the many, and the industrious droop, where must it end? Let's however stick to our ancient Motto, God speed the Plough. C. Have you never heard the proposal of a different Interest upon real and Personal Contracts; methinks, it might now be seasonable. V. It was of Old, my Lord Bacons: And truly, if you will warrant it practicable, I dare pronounce it equitable, in respect of hazard and gain▪ For visibly most Tradesmen might yet better afford to borrow at eight, than Gentlemen at three per Cent. C. Upon the whole matter; there's much I see to be said for low Interest: But you'll ne'er convince me, that 'tis such an Elyxir, as you fancy. V. Assure yourself, want of good vent in an Island, blest with so many advantages as this above all, with Liberty, Safety, and Peace, doth even naturally guide us to that Expedient: Neither is blood letting a more specific cure for the Pleurisy, as may appear by the Preamble of the Statute 21 jacob l, which you will find Instar omnium to my sense, if you please to consult it. C. I hope, you do not, mean the Art, which first brought money from ten to eight in the hundred: For how can that serve your present purpose? V. Believe me, 'Tis a fair and perpetual Looking-glass, clearly representing, how the price of all our native commodities waits on that of Land; how all things than were, and must ever be embased, nay even prostituted to an inconvenient Rate of Interest: For thereunto it imputes a very great Abatement in the value of Land, and other the Merchandises, Wares, and Commodities of this Kingdom, the disabling men to pay their debts, and continue the maintenance of Trade; the enforcing them to sell their Lands and Stocks at very low Rates, to forsake the use of Merchandise and Trade, and to give over their Farms, and so become unprofitable Members of the Commonwealth. C. I trust, you will not draw Arguments for four per Cent. from the Authority which permitted eight. V. By the resemblance of Symptoms, I leave you to judge of the Disease, and consequently its Cure: For is not our condition here described to the life? Doth it not speak our very Idiom? And if the same Reason, why not the same Law? R. You may swear, it hath long been our very case: Our Farms have proved meet Plantations, our Freeholds sorry Cattles; and consequently all the fruits of the Land as errand drugs, as any stale Mackerel cried about London-streets in junc. C. I could almost afford to wish, that Money were for a while abated by way of Probation. V. Your Proposal, indeed, is backed with the Authority of former Precedents; though temporary Laws are seldom through paced: but what a change would it make, if Money were but cheap with us, and Land dear, 'twould be a Salve for every Sore, and of such general Advantage, as if our very Climate were altered, and our Country carried ten Degrees Southward: All Ranks from the Prince to the Swain would soon feel the warmth of it. C. If 'twould ascertain the Payment of Rents, that we might have current Security again, 'twere somewhat like; but for raising the Purchase of Land, I reckon, 'tis only robbing Peter to pay Paul. V. Are you deaf, or asleep? Would not our Rents be current, if our Markets were quick and steady? And what hath been all this while the drift of our Argument, but to show, how all things rise and fall with the Land? C. Nay, I am not yet your Proselyte. V. But do you not apprehend of what Importance 'tis to raise the Purchase of Land; how it enlarges both the Public Fund, and every individual Estate; what an Indies 'twere to us, if our Lands were currently sold for thirty or forty years' Purchase; and what magnificent Improvements of Revenue must of course ensue! C. You are still unpouring with your Improvements, when 'tis the opinion of our wisest men, we have already improved ourselves out of doors, and nothing else hath undone us. V. Nothing hath indeed undone us, but the Discouragement of it: For most of our Land without it, is no better than a Waste to the Commonwealth, and Decoy to the Farmer; whereas solid Improvements are to the Owner more valuable than any Purchase to the State, more considerable than Conquest. C. Well, you differ herein from all I converse with. V. Then you converse with none but Money-mongers: For Rusticus knows, there's not half the Improvement now stirring, he and I remembered, which is, and must be the ruin of our Farmers; since without regular Cost bestowed on most Lands, it is easily guessed, what the Tillage of them will come to. R. I would not be bound to plough the better half of our Farms Rend— free, without constant and chargeable manuring them. But alas, where are the Tenants, or indeed Owners, that are able, as things now go, considerably to mend their Land without borrowing? Which are like the Chemist's vanity, to make Gold without Loss. V. Nay, though they never borrowed, could they afford it at our present Rate of Interest, and the now current prices of Land and Stock, unless they challenged the Privilege of doing what they list with their own: Would not they raise double the Ret venue by lending, or purchase cheaper at least by half? R. That likewise would be well advised on. V. As I am grieved to see such Tracts of Arable lie untilled upon these accounts; So am I scandalised to observe thousands of Acres yearly ploughed to great loss for want of good Husbandry, which▪ with our familiar amendments (not discouraged) might have yielded Crops equally profitable to the owner and the public. R. Did but our Sages and Critics mark the different Product of the same Lands, according as they are well or ill Husbanded, and withal consider, that however the Crop proves, the Charge of Tillage is the same, they would not so deride Improvement, but wise men are apt to abound in their own sense. V. Nay surely, if the Farmer, who now hath twelve or fourteen Bushels of Wheat on an Acre, and sells by the Medium of three Shillings, could (as formerly) have eighteen or twenty, and sell by that of five, 'twould soon make all things smile: 'Tis doubtless from the same decay, that both our Crops and Prices falls, and as they fell, so they must rise together. C. Imarvel, you should still Rove on improving the Land, when already it yields more than people we have can consume. V. Are we then purely to depend on our own Consumption? C. I suppose we must, if we find no better vent abroad. V. Small cause we have to Complain of Foreign vent, especially at this time, having more Market than Grain to vend. R. No 'tis a fatal constellation, where half-crops, low prices, and high wages meet, as we see they here do in the Embasing of the Land. C. Do you not then allow our Deadness of Vent to proceed from want of People? V. As if there were any thriving without increase, or decay without fayler of People. C. That want however, it seems, you admit. R. We feel it indeed shrewdly in the Country; but methinks, we do not meet with it in your streets at London, nor find it by your Buildings in the Suburbs: Now surely 'twere Charitable in you to spare us some of your Colonies. V. 'Tis too manifest, that both in Wealth and People, (which are plainly inseparable,) and in effect Synonomous, our Cities and Trading Towns have of late dangerously gained upon our Villages, though perhaps without loss in the Total: In London, within forty years, there hath been an increase of Inhabitants, alone sufficient to stop all our Gaps▪ Witness our weekly Bills of Christen and Burials: however, can we colourably complain for want of People▪ that employ not half those we have? Use Legs, and have Legs, was the old rule. C. To me it appears, we want only mouths to eat what we cannot utter. R. Where I beseech you, are those vast Granaries of ours? If we be not grossly abused in our intelligence, we might soon be rid of that burden▪ were our Stores far greater, than I doubt they'll prove. V. Had you told me, Mr. Civis, we wanted hands to work, or Stocks to employ them, you had said somewhat: But Mouths without hands, introth, 'tis such a complaint, as was never, I think, offered before: For were not that want soon supplied, by cherishing our breed of Vermine? R. Doth any large and fruitful Parish, judge you, lack a hundred poor and lazy Families to maintain for vent of their Corn? If not why should you fancy the Commonwealth wants Cripples or Beggars? C. Still I affirm, that had we twice the People, 'twere much the better. R. Troth, I should be of your mind, if I saw those we now have, a little more useful and profitable to us than they are: Indeed the more the merrier, we say, yet withal the fewer the better Cheer V What Pastime 'tis to hear the goodly Expedients commonly propounded to quicken our Vent! One is for the raising and fixing of Prices by Law; Another would have sowing of Corn, when cheap, prohibited; A third gives Sentence against great Crops, to be half burnt; A fourth is for the drowning of our Fens and Marshes, and restraint of all future Improvements: A fifth is Tooth and Nail for Polygamy: With such Bulrushes am I oft encountered by the bravest Champions of Six per Cent. C. But what if our Consumption were promoted, by generally clogging the Importation of foreign Growths and Manufactures. R. As if Trade would soar the higher for being more clogged. V. I hate these shallow and Penny-wise Projects, which serve rather to proclaim us Bankrupt, than prevent or cure our Poverty: 'Tis like the Tithing of Mint and Rue, but neglecting matters of moment: Or like hard pumping in a Ship without stopping the Leaks: God help us, when we must have Recourse to such shifts as are sometimes offered; that were playing at small Game indeed: No, I'll forfeit my Senses if any thing effectually raise our Markets, but the buoying up of Land by the fall of Ujury, and equality of Assessments, not the public only, but the Parochial: In a word, be but just to the Land, and all will come right of itself. R. To baffle Truth, and maintain Paradoxes is a Sophister's task: But common sense, one would think, might soon discover, That an inconvenient Rate of Interest and Taxes is alone sufficient to Embase the Land, and consequently all its Fruits, though lofty Wits, it should seem cannot stoop to such vulgar Aphorisms. V. Indeed the profound Inquiries, politic Lectures I daily meet with concerning the fall of Rents, make me think of the Butcher, that searched narrowly for his knife, when 'twas in his mouth: And most of the Remedies offered are not unlike a Plaster to the Shin or Toe for a Hectic Fever. C. I was lately at a serious Club, where this was the Argument: And low Interest was there resolved to be profitable, if seasonable: But 'twas withal agreed, That matters with us are not yet Ripe for't. V. Yet a little Sleep, a little Slumber, saith the sluggard: But surely never were matters so Ripe as now; when our Farms are half under-stocked, yet our Markets clogged; when Borrowing notoriously crushes almost wheresoever it lights; when Tillage and Trade cry aloud for it, as it were One and all; when Mortgages of double or treble value daily become scarce worth Redeeming; when security as well as Credit is worn threadbare, and Lender's almost as much distressed as Borrowers: when the Business expects only the Midwifery of Law, being ready, (if 'twere possible) to teem of itself. C. You are Princes in conceit, but for Abatement of Interest, let me tell you, for your Comfort, 'twill not pass in our time. R. Then let me tell you, for your Comfort, the Tail of this Comet, I doubt, hangs over your City. V. For my part, really I should despair, from the strange Contradictions and Evasions it meets with, if I saw any shift could be made without it: But though Reason may be foiled, yet Sense and fatal Experience will not; For who can now provide for posterity with an indifferent Estate? And what, indeed, doth a great one signify more than the Noise and Trouble of it? How casual do most of our Dealings, and even our Callings prove? Besides, without the Rise of Land, what can enliven our Farmers, quicken our Markets, or rescue us from the deadly Fits of Cheapness and Scarcity▪ But above all; In case His Majesty's Occasions and the public Safety should require large and frequent Levies, (as in Reason they must) what else can enable us to the comfortable payment of them? 'Twere a Miracle one would think, if one of these Motives should at length prevail: My Life for't, this Distemper of ours hath a speedy Crisis. R. Nay, 'tis a catching Disease, and will without speedy prevention, go round the house. V. I tell you Mr. Civis, I would scarce thank any man to secure me, that Interest shall be abated within a few years: For 'twill cut its way through the Rocks, and is now methinks, at our Threshold; though I wish we might step forward to meet him; For otherwise, as near as it is, ere it do itself, we, I doubt, shall be more than half undone: And, indeed, who can be without Concernment, for thousands of honest Families are now languishing under the Delay of it? But you may remember, I have often upon this Occasion compared myself to the man in the Dark, digging for Day, which with a little Patience will certainly come of its own accord. C. Faith, come and welcome▪ Four per Cent. say I, could we but hope for a Register of Titles and Encumbrances; there were some Comfort yet▪ if once they passed Hand in Hand. V. How many Knots do you find or make in a Bulrush! Alas, low Interest and a Register have a little mutual dependence or affinity▪ though some would cunningly pin them together, that the heavier may clog the lighter; A Register will be an Engine, which will be long in framing, and then perhaps not work in an Age; whereas Abatement of Interest being fully precedented to our Hands, and lying ready for present use, may both pass in a trice, and operate from the very time of its passing. Besides, what I pray, would your Register finally import to the due and necessary Balance of our Trade▪ and Markets, or to the exciting of Industry, and curbing of Sloth, which are our principal Aims: But I must take another Evening to discourse it with you; 'tis time we were at our Lodgings. ERRATA. Page 5. line 17. for Ranks, read Rooks. FINIS.