TRUTH-TRIUMPHANT: IN A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A PAPIST AND A QUAKER: Wherein (I suppose) Is made Manifest, that QVAKING is the OFFSPRING of POPERY. At the least, The PAPIST and the QUAKER, Are [FRATRES VTERINI] Both of one VENTURE. London, Printed Anno Domini, MDCLXXI. TRUTH-TRIUMPHANT: In a DIALOGUE Between a PAPIST, and a QUAKER. Papist. GOod morrow, my half Brother in Religion. Quaker. Why, what Religion art thou of? Papist. I am a Roman Catholic; and I call thee my half Brother, because thou art a Quaker. Quaker. What Brotherhood or Relation can there be between a Quaker and a Papist? Pap. O Brother! We are nearer a kin, than thou art ware of. Quak. That's impossible, for I turned Quaker to avoid Popery: for I did think the Church of England would set up Popery. Pap. Nothing less, Brother; for I assure you the Pope, and all of his Persuasion, of all their Adversaries dread none so much as the Church of England: But to come to the Point, all, or most part of what you believe, you have from us; for though I am a Shoemaker, and work at my Trade, I am for all that a Priest, and am sometimes a Quaker, and Preach up your Religion, as I have done several times at Bristol. Quak. What should be your Reason to endeavour to set up our Religion? Pap. To make you turn Papist, as you call us. Quak. This is a strange Riddle to me, pray unfold it. Pap. That I intent to do; We must do what we can to cry down the Bible, for that makes clear against us; and that trick we taught you of calling the Scripture a dead Letter; Then Secondly, we teach to that height, that a man has Power in himself to please God, and walk uprightly: Do not you believe all this, Brother? Quak. Yea; Thus far we agree. Pap. Do you know Cap. Everard? Quak. Yea, He was a Godly Man before he turned Papist. Pap. He never was otherwise, he was a Priest too, and commanded by the Pope to pretend to be one of you, the better to oppose the Church of England. Quak. Strange! Is it possible? now I am afraid I am nearer Popery, than I was ware of: Bless me! by leaving the Church of England I thought to fly from Popery; and for aught I perceive, I am running headlong into it. Pap. Yes Brother, I hope to make you a good Catholic before we part. Quak. You can never do thut. Pap. I will either do so, or confirm you where you are. Quak. For the latter, I am content. Pap. Have you not heard of my Lady— How she run through all Religions; from a Protestant she turned Presbyterian, (to avoid Popery;) there she could not rest, because there was a Church-Government, and therefore resembled too much the Church of England; and besides, she hearing there were people that Prayed and taught by the Spirit, away she goes to them: To be short, she was one while an Independent, a Quaker, and what not? Well, at last hearing that the Church of Rome had an Infallible guide in Religion, thither she steered her Course, and there she cast Anchor, and continues a good Catholic. Quak. I have heard of that Lady you speak of, and for that reason, and because of what I have heard you say, I love my Religion never the better for it: there is one only reason persuades me to continue in it. Pap. What is that? Quak. I will tell thee, If thou wilt promise me to say nothing of it. Pap. I do, upon the word of a Priest. Quak. Then I will tell thee truly; a Sister (for thou must know we call one another Brothers and Sisters) may not deny a Brother to lie with her, if the Spirit moves; for every provocation to that which you call Lechery, We say is God's Spirit) nor a Brother a Sister, if the Spirit enable him. Pap. If that be all, turn Catholic, and I will give thee a Dispensation to have as many Women as thou wilt, or art able to turn to, that die when thou wilt, thou art sure to go to Heaven however. Quak. A good Argument, I confess, if thou couldst prove thyself enabled thereunto by God Almighty; but I suspect, what thou dost offer is to satisfy our Lusts and Lechery, (no matter for our Souls,) to make us subservient to your ends in this world; whereas what we do is to raise up a Holy Seed unto the Lord; so that by doing him Service, (not by Sinning against him) we indulge much to our own satisfaction; so that we serve him without any trouble either to the Conscience, or the Body: for to give a Licence for Sin is a most horrid thing; to say you have Power to Absolve for Sins past, (as the Church of England says,) is not amiss; but that you have Power to give Licence to Sin, is what I can never believe; and therefore for any thing I have yet heard from thee, I will continue as I am; therefore be one of Us, and thou shalt enjoy Multitudes of Women, without offending God. Pap. I have the same argument to persuade thee to come to us; I can give Indulgencies that shall serve thee and thy Posterity for Thousands of Years. Quak. This is like a Doctrine of ours, that God sees not Sin in Us that are the Godly; if one of Us lie with many Women, we are then raising a Holy Seed, a Royal Priesthood; amongst the Ungodly party, this is Fornication and a Sin; the Goods of the whole World which the wicked possess, belong not to them, they are Ours of right; to dispossess them thereof is no Robbery. Pap. We say the same, for the Pope hath power to dispose of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, to take them from the wicked, from Heretics, Schismatics, Idolaters, etc. and give them to true Catholics; for those are the truly Godly party. Quak. Bless me! where am I? I shall be a Papist I very much fear; nay, I doubt I have been one all this while. Pap. Doubtless we are very near one another. Quak. But I'll get further from thee if I can; but pray let me ask thee one Question; why are you a greater Enemy to the Church of England, than to all others that differ from the Church of Rome? Pap. Because they have the resemblance of a Church, which none of you have, except the Presbyterian; and next the Church of England we dread them; and the more, because they seem to comply more with the Church of England than formerly, and begin to perceive it impossible to set up for themselves; for when ever they shall attempt it, the Independents will infallibly supplant them, as formerly; and they again, (the Independents I mean) will run into so many Sects of Religion, and Parties, that they can never subsist; but must at last be forced to submit to the Church of England, or us of Rome. Quak. I perceive now I must be either a Protestant, or a Papist. Pap. Without all peradventure you cannot avoid it. Quak. I'll e'en then turn Protestant, as I was before 1641. Pap. By no means do so; either come straight to Us, or continue a Quaker; Nay, rather than turn Protestant, I'll get thee a Dispensation from Rome to continue a Quaker; and that thou shalt not so much as go into Purgatory. Quak. Yours is a very brave Religion, if it could hold water; but what assurance have you that God allows this? Pap. The Infallibility of the Church. Quak. What is that? Pap. The truth is, we are not yet agreed amongst Ourselves; for some of Us (as we Jesuits) do hold the Pope to be Infallible; that whatsoever He Decrees, We are obliged to yield unto an implicit obedience and Belief; others do place it in a General Council, the Pope presiding over it; And lastly, others in a Council only. Protestant. And so I perceive it's no no where with you, with us it is; for now I will argue like a Protestant; we have Infallibility in our Church. Papist. What is that? Prot. The Old and New Testament; for you cannot deny it to be the Word of God. Papist. That we cannot; but this we say: That it is but a dead Letter, without the Interpretation of the Church. Prot. Whoop holy day! I think your Worship will turn Quaker. Papist. No such thing, I warrant you; but to proceed, and to speak to you, as to a Protestant. All your Opposers produce the Bible against you, as well as against us; What can you answer to that? Prot. Let right take place; but by the way, this is foul play, for you to urge me to answer you as a Hydra, with so many Heads; Will you be a Papist, a Presbyterian, Independent, Quaker, and every thing at once? This is to be a right Jesuit indeed; but I will allow you all this advantage: I will therefore go on, as I said before, let right take place; for the Church of England has the advantage over all her Opposers , and over ten thousand more, if she had so many; for against you all, she has a claim to this Infallible Guide of the Word of God, with all the difficulties therein contained, explained by all Ancient Fathers and Councils; against which no sober man can except. So that we have the Bible against you, and against them; and against you we have the Bible, as I said before, explained, with the four first General Councils, with the Practice of those times of Purity; besides, is it not familiar with you of the Roman Church (together with all those several enemy's , and Opposers of the Church of England) to cry up Success, and may not Protestants make use of the same Plea, so far, especially, as it is Argumentum ad hominem? And so offer to your prospect and consideration, the miraculous Restauration of the Church of England, in the year, 1660. Papist. You mean, the King's Restauration. Prot. I mean both; but we are now disputing concerning the Church, not King, of England; for though you, as being a Papist, a Priest, and a Jesuit, are an Enemy to both Church and State: But the reason I only name the Church of England's Restauration, is, because, I conceive, God restored the King, for the Church's sake; because God knew the King would restore the Church of England, for whose sake God did restore him. Moreover, I mention the Church of England only, because God has dealt so often miraculously for her. As first, in our King Henry the Eighth his days, that such an occasion of Scandal should be given to the whole World, as well as to that King, in particular; that though he did not so very much alter the Roman Religion, yet he absolutely took away the Pope's Authority, which was a miraculous step to that more exact Reformation: Which, in the second place, God did miraculously bring to pass, by means of (a Child, as I may say) King Edward the Sixth. The third Miracle God did act for the Church of England, was, that Queen Mary, Espoused to a King of Spain, having fully restored Popery, and butchered thousands of Protestants; yet The miraculous methods ●f God, on the behalf of Eng●and, during se●e●al Succession's of time. was it not in her power, though assisted with the House of Austria (which was then in its Zenith, as I suppose now France is) to prevent the wonderfully miraculous Restauration of the Church of England, by the ever famous Queen Elizabeth; and though that Good, and Gallant Queen was in the hands of Her, and the Church of England's Adversaries, yet did God miraculously preserve Her, for his Church's sake. And this Church was, likewise, in the fourth place (though indeed, not restored, yet powerfully and wonderfully) preserved, when King James Succeeded to this great, and virtuous Queen. The last Miracle (I pray God this Church may need no more of them) which it pleased God to show this Church, was in the Year Sixty; though indeed three more might have been added, so as to have made this fifth the eighth; but, for brevity's sake, I shall put them together. First, the Defeat of that Navy, which the Spaniards called their Invincible Armad●, in the Year, 1588. Secondly, the miraculous prevention of the Popish Conspiracy, the fifth day of November; whereby, the King, His Nobles, the chief of the Gentry and Commons in Parliament, should have been blown up. The third, the true Christian Valour and Magnanimity which appeared in his Late Majesty, on the behalf of the Church of England, (asserting her Reformation) during all His Sufferings, to the last minute of his Martyrdom. And now, Sir, I hope I have confuted you, by your own way of Argumentation; and now, Sir, hereafter (if you please) you may worship your great Diana of Success. Papist. Your Successes we cannot deny; but still, I conceive, the Bible is not a sufficient Infallible Guide. Prot. I think I have very well proved, by the several miracles, that Infallibility of the Bible is for the Church of England (as now it is established, this Year 1668. Jul.) against your, and all other Dissenters from the Church of England; and, in my opinion, is a great sign of her being a true Church; that she is furnished on all sides with good and sound Arguments for her defence, and offending her Adversaries; for, in the first, she opposes to you the Bible, Practise of the Primitive Church, the Ancient Fathers, and your own modern ones; and against such as I was once, formerly; She has the same, though She have less occasion to make use of the Bible. Thus is she furnished with complete Armour and Weapons. God Almighty has armed Her Cap ape, against the Devil, and all his Instruments; So that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against Her. Papist. You have taken your Common-Prayer-Book out of the Mass. Prot. You have your Mass out of the Jewish Liturgy. Papist. How can that be? Prot. Are not the Psalms of David made use of in the Mass? Papist. They are, I confess. Prot. They were, either all, or in part, the Jewish Liturgy. Papist. We do confess, they were. Prot. Then hereafter, tell us no more of our Common-Prayer being taken out of the Mass; and now we are speaking of the Jews, let me tell you, that you make use of the same Arguments to oppose us, that the Jews did to oppose our Saviour; they urged to our Saviour, That he was an Innovator, and that he opposed the Traditions of their Church; which (say they) had continued, from the establishment of it by God, in Moses' time. This method you observe against us, calling us Innovators, who are the chiefest opposers of Innovation; for our Church's endeavour is to cast off what you have Innovated in Christian Religion. Let me ask you one Question; Do not you believe, all that the Church of England believes? Papist. We do, but we believe more. Prot. Then, let me tell you, whatsoever in more, are Rome's Superstructures, and Innovations; and aught to be rejected of all true Christians. Papist. I doubt I have killed the wrong man; for I doubted not, from a Quaker, to have made you one of us; but instead of that, I have made you a Protestant; and, for aught I know, I may chance to be one too: But I will not quit the Field yet, but have more discourse with you. Protest. With all my heart; for (methinks) the more I discourse with you, the more I am enabled above my capacity, which 〈◊〉 must attribute to God's good 〈…〉 who enables me, a wea●…●●●rument of his, to defend 〈◊〉 Truth. Papist. I●… 〈◊〉 be the Truth, I wish it may appear so; in the mean time, I shall proceed thus: Your Religion was never heard of, before ●●●her▪ s time. Protest. Is not that Argument worn threadbare yet? But seeing you insist upon it, I shall repeat unto you, for answer, the words of a Learned Man, out of his Epistle Dedicatory to His present Majesty; the words (as I remember) are these,— Since that great Miracle of Divine Providence, in your majesty's Stilling fleet. most happy Restauration, we have seen those, who before triumphed over the Church of England, as dead; as much expressing their envy at Her resurrection: Neither could it otherwise be expected, but that so sudden a recovery of Her former Lustre, would open the mouths of Her weak, but contentious Adversaries; who see Her shine in a Firmament, so much above them: But it is a part of Her present Felicity, that they are ashamed of the insulting Question (What is become of your Church now?) and are driven back to their old impertinency (Where was your Church, before Luther?) They might as well alter the Date of it, and ask, where She was before your Majesty's Restauration? For as She only suffered an Eclipse, in the late Confusions; no more did She (though of a longer stay) in the times before the Reformation; and it was Her great Honour, that She was not awakened out of it (as of old they fancied) by beating of Drums, or the rude Clamours of the People; but as She gradually regained Her Light, so was it with the Influence of Supreme Authority, which has caused so close an Union and Combination of Interests between them, that the Church of England, and the Royal Family, have, like Hypocrates his Twins, both wept and rejoiced together: And nothing doth more argue the excellent constitution of our Church, than that wherein the purity of Christian Doctrine is joined with the most hearty acknowledgement of your majesty's Power and Supremacy— Thus far that learned Author; I shall add further; That if a Church Eclipsed, or unseen, shall be the destruction of it, or that there was ever any such thing, I would very fain know, where the Church of God was, when (it was said) the whole World was turned Arrian; and before our Saviour came into the world, how often was the Church of God invisible, and the Worship, or Religion appointed, utterly overthrown by Idolaters? Such as the Church of God was in those days, the same our Church was before the Reformation; and where the one was, there was the other; in Dens and Caves and in the hearts of good and Religious Men, where God did receive an acceptable Sacrifice. We see; in the 19 Chap. of the first Book of the Kings, verse 10. how 1 Kings, Cap. 19 Ver. 10. invisible the Church of God was, by the expression of the Prophet Elias there, — I have been very jealous for the Lord God of Hosts; for the Children of Israel have forsaken thy Covenant, broken down thine Altar, and ●●●in thy Prophets with the sword, and I only am left, and they seek 〈…〉 to take it away.— These were the words of a true Prophet of the Lord, to whom the Church of God was so invisible to him (though often a fore-seer and fore-teller of future contingencies) that he conceives himself to be the only Servant of the Lord, left upon the face of the Earth; yet in the Eighteen●h verse of the Chap. God tells the Prophet, Of Seven Thousand Men in Israel remaining, even all the Knees that have not bowed unto Baal; and every Mouth that hath not kissed him.— Thus you see, before Luther's time, notwithstanding their invisibility (according to this of the Prophet,) God might, and no doubt, had thousands of true believers, which had not bowed their knees to your Baal of Rome; and whose Mouths had never kissed him; and, no doubt, the Simile is very pat between this Baal of Jezabel's, in the Book of the Kings, and your Baal, i. e. the Pope of Rome; for, as this Baal of Jezabel was to be bowed unto, and Kissed; so is your Baal, or Pope of Rome, likewise to be bowed unto, and Kissed, (not his Face, but his Toe) even by Emperors, and Our Saviour did suffer himself to be kissed on the Face; to witness Judas' betraying this Saviour of the World with a kiss. Kings, as well as by the meanest of his Worshippers and Abettors; and thus, according to the Apostle, St. Paul, in the second to the Thessalonians, Cap. 2. Ver. 4. He is an Adversary [to our Saviour and his Holy Religion,] and exhalteth himself above, and against all that is called God, or that is Worshipped; so that He doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that He is God. And this truth is yet more confirmed even by yourselves, by whom this Pope is called [Dominus Deus noster Papa;] and too this Pope (in your ordinary discourse, either to him, or of him) you attribute a Title only due to God, which is, — His Holiness. There be three other Texts in this same Chapter, that may very well be applied to your Baal, or Pope, Ver. 8, 9, 11. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his Mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming, as it is, Ver. the 8th. For during the darkness of Superstition and Popery, (the times preceding before Luther, Calvin, and others) this Baal was Worshipped without control, or visible gainsaying; the true Worshippers, those 7000. that had not bowed to him, nor Kissed him, being as invisible, as to outward prosperity, as those 7000. in the days of Elias: But when the time came for the appearance of those glorious Reformers of Religion, and manners, according to God's appointment; for to this, God alone, as it is in the Acts of the Holy Apostles, Cap. 1. Ver. 7. The Times, and the Seasons, the Father hath put into his own Hands; then did that wicked one [this Roman Baal] begin to be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his Mouth, and abolish with the brightness of his coming. Ver. 8. The 9 Ver. is applicable to your Baal in your false Miracles, Signs, and Lying wonders; whereby you lie in wait to deceive the Ignorant and simple. This person must be consumed and abolished; even him (as it is, Ver. 9) whose coming is by the effectual working of Satan, with all Power; [the Inquisition, and their visible pretended infallibility] and Signs, and lying Wonders.— And God knows, with such Signs and lying Wonders, false Miracles, etc. Your Church is sufficiently fraught. Ver. 11. is the consequence of the former recited Verses, 8, & 9 and therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they shall believe Lies; and this is verified every day, that many among You, (otherwise, Learned and wise enough,) do give themselves up to these strong delusions, giving as great credit to your Legends, as the Fables of one Winifred; etc. as to the Gospel itself; I could add upon this Subject; but I suppose, what I have already said is sufficient to evidence unto you the Errors of Your ways, and the Truth of Ours. Papist. I confess, I am very much shaken by your Arguments; and the next time we meet, you may possibly obtain an entire Conquest over me. Protest. I am very glad it is come to this, which is a kind of new Creation in us; God having thus produced Light out of Darkness: You having thus (contrary to your intent) sent me into the Bosom of the Church of England, whereinto I hope you will likewise throw yourself; whereby we shall not be half, but whole Brothers; having one Father, (which is, God,) one Mother, (the Church of England,) Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the World, being our Elder Brother: In this confidence I dare call you Brother; and Dear Brother, far you well for this time. The CONCLUSION. THe Dialogue thus finished, I think it not amiss to say something concerning the first General Council that ever was in the Church of Christ; you have the whole Story of it in the 15 Chap. of the Acts of the Holy Apostles; I shall take notice, that it was not called by the particular direction of any of the Apostles, but that all of them did concur thereunto; and this was, doubtless, the Method of the Christian Church, during its greatest Purity and Integrity; and the truth is, no other way could be used, while the Church of Christ was under Persecution: but in process of time, when supreme powers did receive, and protect the Christian Faith; and that (as the Scripture saith,) Kings and Queens were Nursing Fathers, and Nursing Mothers, of the Spouse of Christ; then were general Councils summoned by them, and by them were these Councils left to their free Debates and determinations; whose Decrees were afterwards confirmed by the Supreme Authorities, whereby those Decrees, which before such a Confirmation did only oblige the Conscience, had then the Coercive Power of the State to compel their Observation; and this Method did continue, till the Usurpation of the Bishop of Rome upon all Powers, both Civil and Ecclesiastical; for he now takes upon him to assume unto himself the power of calling Councils, of presiding in them, and Confirming their Decrees; saying, that without His Confirmation, they are invalid. Thus does he make his own Will to be of more Authority than a General Council; and this same Will of his to be Superior to all Supreme Powers and Authorities whatsoever: But I shall add no more upon this Subject, but proceed to what I at first proposed in the beginning hereof; where I shall take notice of some things in the 15 th' Chap. of the Acts of the Holy Apostles, where we read of the first General Council that ever was in the Church of Christ; and therefore most likely to be a direction for all others,) It was occasioned by an Appeal made by some Converte● Gentiles, to this General Council; for some Pharisaical Christians would impose upon these Converted Gentiles the whole Law of Moses; therefore to this General Council they do appeal; the words of the Council are these. — Ver. 23. of this 15. Chap. The Apostles, and Elders, and Brethren send Greeting unto the Brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia. 24. Forasmuch as We have heard, that certain which went out from Us, have troubled You with Words subverting Your Souls; saying, Ye must be Circumcised, and keep the Law, to whom We gave no such Commandment: 25. It seemed good unto Us, being Assembled with one accord, to send chosen Men unto You, with Our beloved Barnabas and Paul; 26. Men that have hazarded their Lives for the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ. 27. We have sent therefore Judas, and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28. For it seemed good to the Holy-Ghost, and to Us, to lay upon You no greater Burden, than these necessary things. 29. That Ye abstain from Meats offered to Idols, and from Blood, and from things Strangled, and from Fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well; far ye well. These be the words together; We shall now take them into parts. — The Apostles, and Elders, and Brethren, [There is no Primacy in St. Peter, or in any body else; either first, as to calling this Council; or Secondly, In degree itself; or Thirdly, by way of Confirming this Decree of the Council; Apostles, Elders, and Brethren, are all alike concerned;] Send Greeting, unto the Brethren, which are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. [Now here I cannot but take notice, that the Church of Jerusalem treats the Churches of Antioch, etc. not with a Maternal, but a Fraternal Appellation; not like the Church of Rome, (certainly if ever any had been the Mother-Church, it must have been that of Jerusalem, St. Peter, and all the rest of the Apostles; yea, even a General Council there residing,) which makes herself the Mother-Church, and all others she will have to be esteemed but Her Children; and yet in this General Council St. Peter was present, as appears by the 7. Verse of this 15. Chap. and yet St. Peter does not pronounce any Judgement; contenting himself rather with relating matter of Fact; and Paul and Barnabas do the same, as it is Ver. 11. But the Apostle St. James proceeds further in Ver. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. and in the 19 Ver. is very bold, saying; — Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God;— and Ver. 20. He proceeds.— But that we [here St. James is equal with St. Peter, or any of the rest] writ unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of Idols, and from Fornication, and from things strangled, and from Blood;— And to this Sentence of St. James the whole Council acquiesces, not any one speaking after St. James;]— Forasmuch as certain which went out from Us, have troubled you with words subverting your Souls, saying, Ye must be Circumcised, and keep the Law, to whom We, not St. Peter alone] gave no such Commandment, it seemed good unto Us, being assembled with one accord; [This Council you see was not called by St. Peter alone,] to send chosen men unto You, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their Lives for the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ; We have sent therefore Judas, and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by word of Mouth; for it seemed good to the Holy-Ghost, and to Us; [you see the Holy-Ghost is not tied to St. Peter's, or the Pope's Chair, nor the College of Cardinals, but remaining with the General Council;] To lay upon you no heavier burden than these necessary things, that ye abstain from Meats offered to Idols, from Blood, and from things strangled, and from Fornication; [all this, the Sentence of, and Opinion of St. James delivered to the Council, and thus approved of by the Council,] from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well; far ye well. I have thus run over the words of this first General Council, with some few Animadversions thereon; and if therein I have done the Church of Christ any Service, I have my aim; and do retun unto him all Honour, and Glory, for His assistance herein, by whom I have been hereunto enabled. To the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy-Ghost, be all Honour, and Glory, now, and for ever, Amen. FINIS.