A second Parcel of objections Against the taking of the ENGAGEMENT ANSWERED.  
Or the doubts which some godly Ministers in some neighbour Counties entertained upon that Subject; as they were proposed in several Letters to, and resolved by J. D.  
Whereunto is occasionably annexed a discovery of the weakness of the Plea of the Cheshire and Lancashire Ministers for non-subscribing.  
LONDON, Printed by Will. Du. Gard. 1650.   

A second Parcel of objections against the taking of the ENGAGEMENT answered; Or, the doubts which some godly Ministers in some neighbour Counties entertained upon that subject, as they were proposed in several Letters to, and resolved by J. D.  

The first Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
THe scope of your late writings seems to bee the giving of satisfaction to such as are scrupulous about the new Engagement: Give me leave( being emboldened thereunto by your ingenious invitation, p. 29. of your Re-prop.) to acquaint you with the thoughts of divers godly Ministers( whose names you may have if need bee) touching your two last pieces: and to show you wherein they remain unsatisfied. Only let me premise thus much, and speak it as in the sight of God; that although my acquaintance hath been but little with you( being once only in your company with Dr. Wells) yet I have alway highly honoured you in my heart, since I had any knowledge of you; and have often said to my friends, That if I would rest upon any man's judgement living,( at lest in points of this nature) it should bee upon yours: so deeply was I possessed with the persuasion both of your ability and integrity. And for those, whose thoughts I represent to you, I may truly saize of them, they are such as are lead into their doubtings by no design, but the design of keeping a good conscience; and that the tie of conscience arising from 〈…〉 gements, whereby they have tied themselves to God, is the principal( if not only) thing that makes them tender this way. You may therefore pleas to take notice:  
1. They think that the less self-confidence, and abounding in our sens, bee used in things of so doubtful a nature, the more agreeable it is to the rule of love, and the more safe will our proceedings bee therein.  
2. They think that in your whole discourse on this subject, you take that pro concesso( and make it the chief basis and bottom of all your argumentation) namely, That the continuance of King and Lords is inconsistent with Salus Populi;( whereto it's willingly granted other things must give place): but this is the thing altogether in question, as was otherwise determined by the mayor part of the Commons( when the house was full and free) who are our only competent judges in things of this nature.  
3. They think it a sentence scarcely agreeable to the rule of charity and Christian compassion, that those who are afraid to engage this way( though they engage to live quietly, and obey in lawful things) should have no protection or other benefit of law( as you seem to say p. 22. of your Considerations) since, wherein is true tenderness of conscience, if it bee not to bee tender in those things wherein wee have to do with God, and that in the most sacred and solemn manner, viz. by Oaths and Covenants.  
4. Whereas you say in your Re-prop. p. 12. that there is no difference at all betwixt the things which the proposers themselves mention to bee the duty of Subjects to their superiors, and the subscriptions required by present authority; And yet p. 15. you say wee mean to declare by our subscriptions our approbation of, our ratifying consent unto, and our obligation towards the present Establishment,( which are the principal things that the proposers scruple at, as appears Sect. 39; And whereas yourself would not have it so much as questioned how far it doth imply an approbation of the present establishment, a ratifying consent thereto, and an obligation to act to the strengthening and promoting of it; and yet by subscribing you declare your approbation of it; they cannot see how these things are clear from contradiction and crossing one another.  
5. They account it an hard censure by you, to say that those whom nothing can satisfy in their doubts, but a clear declaration made either by the Supreme Power, or by themselves, to bee such as have no sincerity in them,( pag. 20. of your Repropos.) since wee cannot go too clearly and surely to work in acquitting our selvs from the guilt arising from the violation of such oaths and promises as wee have made to God.  
6. They think it no less violation of the rule of charity, for you to say of the proposers( though altogether unknown to them) That in their Proposals they have covered a State business and politic design with a Ministerial cloak, p. 29.( where there seems to bee a mixture of some bitterness) then if the proposers should say of you, that you have put forth your late Papers to pleas a prevailing party. And if there bee a liberty to censure each other in this sort, whose integrity shall bee left untouched and unviolated?  
7. They acknowledge that to bee very true, which you speak p. 21. and that even good men are too subject to admit of self-mixtures in their best actions. But they see no reason to think that yourself should bee so strong as not to bee at some times subject to the like weakness: If you bee, then you know it is the duty of the strong to bear with the infirmities of the weak: and the property of love, rather to cover and conceal them, then to lay them open to their shane, when so many are ready to rejoice in it.  
To conclude, they are much afraid that the late writings on this subject, have not a little exasperated the higher Powers, and heightened the heat of their indignation against many that are truly godly( both Ministers and People that are tender this way) by increasing unjust jealousies in their minds towards them, and making things appear in a wors shape then needed, and so have made the gap greater and breach wider, which had far more need to have been closed and cured. It is conceived, that you can very hardly prove those things which you suggest against the proposers, and therefore( as yourself say) in doubtful things love should judge the best: And therefore it had been a far better office both of love to your brethren, yea, and of fidelity to Superiors, rather to have cast on water, then to have added fuel to the flamme: authority being always apt enough to take high offence at such, who in all things agree not with it.  
Sir, you cannot but know that the generality of the Church of Scotland have the same sense of this new Engagement with those that scruple it in England: whose judgement is not to bee slighted. Neither is there reason for any to bee carried on with such confidence in the maintaining of it, as to censure those who are doubtful. You cannot but know that in doubtful things, by reason of the diversity of apprehensions, there will bee likewise a differing latitude in men's consciences( even in the consciences of such as are truly pious and most sincerely conscientious) so as those things which will satisfy one, will not satisfy another that desire's satisfaction( as it hath been heretofore between the non-conformists and conformists,( though both godly) and is still between the Independents and Presbyterians) so that in public subscriptions it hath been thought needful things should bee as clear as the morning light. That therefore such who desire a clear satisfaction in such a business as this, that is involved with such difficulties, and perplexed with so many oaths and pre-engagements, should bee censured for unsinceritie; is thought very little agreeing with the rule of love and equity.  
It is therefore in all earnestness and loving humility desired of you, that you would lay no more load on such who already are even sinking under the burden of many doubts and perplexities, nor give any occasion to the hand of authority to lye heavier upon them then heretofore; but rather that you would bestow some of your strength in dealing with Superiors as well as inferiors: and that in these respects:  
1. because it is in their power( by not pressing) to eas many that want power to eas themselves by untying the knots that pinch them: and it is no small charity, to yield eas to a tired, troubled conscience.  
2. It will bee their safety and prosperity not to lay heavy burdens on the consciences of such as desire to keep a good conscience: such as have alway been their fastest friends, and constant intercessors at the Throne of Grace. A blow from a friend is far more grievous, then what comes from an enemy.  
3. It will bee very agreeable to those many promises and professions they have made to the whole Kingdom, touching their great care to use tender consciences tenderly. When the Prelatical yoke was broken, there was great hopes wee should have been troubled with no more yokes of the like nature.  
4. It's conceived, that now you have a price in your hands,( by reason you have ingratiated yourself with the higher Powers by the many good offices you have don for them) you have opportunity likewise to do some good offices for God's people, which they desire you may have a heart to improve.  
Blessed is he that considereth or judgeth wisely of the poor( as the Geneva translation read's it) Psal. 41. 1. You know who those poor ones are, even such as many are, who are now struggling in their thoughts about the lawfulness of this now Engagement, and not able to find out a satisfying resolution.  
Thus I have been bold to commend the thoughts of my friends, together with my own thoughts, unto you, which I hope you will accept with that christian candour and meekness, which heretofore hath shined forth in all your carriages. If it pleas you to vouchsafe any answer, though but in three lines, I shall take it as a true testimony of your great humility and integrity. Thus desiring our good God still to make you a happy reconciler and peacemaker, I resign you to his mercy.  
Yours in all christian love 
 and service. 
 This ninth of 
 Febr. 1649.   

The Answer to the first Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
YOur Letter dated Febr. 9. I received not till Febr. 16. on saturdaie about noon, and I willingly confess myself really beholding to you for the ingenuity and freedom which you use towards me in it, and wish that God would put it in the heart of every one of my brethren that find themselves grieved at any thing which they find in me, to do as you have don. For I hope that God will never suffer me to neglect any admonition which shall bee given me by any, without a due reflection upon myself to examine my spirit in his sight, by the light which it bring's with it, or without a solicitous care to give just satisfaction to every one, whom I may see upon discovery that I have offended through weakness: for he was an Apostle that said, In many things wee offend all, Jam. 3.( not excluding himself) and added, If any man offend not in a word, he is a perfect man: I am not conscious to myself of any conceit of perfection in any thing which I have attained; therefore I shall willingly take notice of the first rule which you lay down, That the less self-confidence and abounding in our sens wee use in things of a doubtful nature, the more agreeable our way will bee to the rule of love; and the more safe will our proceedings bee. By this rule I shall hearty desire to bee judged; and if I have failed by being too confident in any thing, my heart doth much deceive me, if I shall ever bee ashamed to confess a fault, if made known unto me. I shall therefore desire to know the passages wherein self-confidence doth appear, that I may bee humbled for them, and rectify them upon a further examination of my heart.  
Your second point of admonition is, That I take that pro confesso which is in question; and that I make that which is not granted to bee the basis and bottom of all my argumentation. Which if I do, I confess I am out of the way. But truly, by what you represent, it doth not yet appear to me that I have don so: for you say that I have pre-supposed this as the basis of all my argumentation, namely, That the continuance of K. and Lords is inc●… sistent with Salus Populi: which to my best understanding o●●y self in what I have said or meant to say, I neither have said, nor intended to say; and I would bee beholden to you, or those other brethren who make that observation, to let me see the ground of that assertion in any thing which I have said. For I will clearly profess, that I do not think that there is any inconsistency between the Salus Populi, and the being of a King and of Lords in a Nation; if they behave themselves not as Tyrants, to rule all at will, and without Laws: which are in the people's right to choose and settle for themselves and their Kings; and it is their King's only Prerogative, and the duty of their Lords, to see those Laws observed: for to me it is clearly against the Law of God and nature, that any King or Lords should bee Magìs soluti Legibus, then any of the meanest Subjects; or de jure bee less reprovable then they are. This being then my clear judgement, that Kings and Lords are officers in a National sociëtie appointed by God through men, to see Laws kept, it never came into my mind to think that their being in a Nation should bee inconsistent with the safety thereof: and if you willingly grant, that all human Constitutions or Ordinances of men, as the Apostle calls Kings, must give place to Salus Populi, I suppose, you and I shall very little disagree about the tenor of Kings and Lords; therefore when in the close of this admonition you say, that this is altogether in question, truly I understand not how it comes to bee a question at all between us, or wherein I have given you a ground to think so; nor do I understand well what is meant by the words which follow thereupon, viz. And was otherwise determined by the mayor part of the Commons( when the house was full and free) who are our only competent Judges in things of this nature. I say, I know not well what you mean by the thing which was otherwise determined: for if I dissent not from you in this, then nothing was otherwise determined; as to my sens in this matter, then what you agree to. But if you would intimate, that the house when it was( in your sens) full and free, did determine that there should bee a King and house of Lords, remaining with the house of Commons in this Nation, as a lawful Government in their joint relations, according to the fundamental constitution of the State; if this bee your meaning, I fully grant it, That once it was so determined by both Houses, and by the mayor part of the Commons, who were your competent Judges in things of this nature. And yet now wee see it is again otherwise determined by another party of the same Commons, who declare themselves to bee a full and free house( of which assertion now they are the only competent Judges) and according to their determination nothing is generally asserted, and in Thesi, That Salus Populi, and a King and Lords are inconsistent; but onely in Hypothesi, and particularly, That at this present, there is an inconsistency of a King and house of Lords with the safety of this People: which how true or fals it is, ought not to bee disputed, because it cannot bee determined by you or me; for it depend's upon the cognizance of circumstance; whereof I conceive none of our coat are competent judges, nor any others that are in places of subjection; but onely those that are betrusted with the higher Powers, and are about the management of their places of Trust. And if it cannot bee denied, that those that have made the alteration of the Government, were persons betrusted with power able to do what they did, and did it in the Management of their places of trust, according to the best of their understanding, for the safety of the People, I dare not take upon me to bee their judges, but must leave them to him under whom they pretend to stand; and must acknowledge that the alteration is of God, whose ordinatie course it is to do, by a minor part, and by weak means, that which a mayor part of the world, and the greatness of the strength thereof, is not able to do. And if I perceive that a matter is clearly determined by those whom he hath employed, and who are in power to manage public affairs by their places; although it may bee carried contrary to my private sens and expectation, yet I see no warrant for me to take upon me to make any other determination of the matter in my thoughts, then God hath don by them who have the management of his Power; nor can I see how it is lawful for any man who cannot bring his thoughts to close with that which hath been don by others, under whose protection he is obliged to live, to refuse to do things in themselves lawful, just, and undeniably tending to Common safety, onely upon this account, because such things are commanded by men, whom they judge to have don that which is amiss, and beyond the line of their power. If they who presume to judge so, were by any right of God or men made judges of their actions, or able to call them to an account thereof before competent judges; or in a condition to stand free, and in no need of their protection, something, as I conceive, might bee said for their practise: but when men can pretend to nothing of all this, but are mere Subjects, and under a Power which undoubtedly is Supreme over them; under a power in full possession of all places of trust about them, and in a capacity to manage the same, for the good of those that do well, and for the punishment of those that do evil; Now, I say, for men, when things are so, to stand out and to resist such powers, not in things of an unlawful, but of a most commendable, lawful, and necessary nature in themselves, and to think to bee obliged to do so for conscience sake, is to me I confess, an extreme great Paradox in the profession of christianity, as it is an unpartial and conscionable walking before God in conformity to his will. And if this is not the present case wherein some Ministers do stand in opposition to the present Powers, I would bee glad to bee rectified; and you will do me a favour to show me wherein I do mistake either the public or their private case in this matter.  
The third matter of admonition is: That I seem not to deal charitably and compassionately with those who through tenderness of conscience, in reference to Oaths and Covenants, are afraid to engage this way ( though they engage to live quietly and obey in lawful things) by an owning of the authority; and this uncharitablenes you charge upon me from my expressions in pag. 21. of my Considerations, where I seem to say, That such should have no protection or other benefit of Law. If I have said so of such persons, and to the end that they should bee deprived of protection, and of the benefit of equal justice; I confess it would bee somewhat rigorous and inconsistent with the spirit of compassion and charity. I am sure it was not in my design to deprive any tender conscience of any equitable favour which may bee shewed unto them, nay I have professedly and sincerely engaged myself, to use all my interest in those that are in places of power, to procure this unto them, as you may see more at large in the Reproposals, pag. 18. and 19. In the Paragraphs, which in the margin are marked for an Answer to the seventh and eight Sect. of the Proposals: and as I there have professed, so I have hitherto uprightly endeavoured; but as for that which you allege out of the Considerations, pag. 22. of the second and third Edition,( for in the first Edition, it is page. 24.) I shall desire you to consider the matter and scope of that which I say in that place; and if then you look upon the principle, which I had before( in page. 16. of the same Editions) as a ground of Justice in this Case, perhaps you will see cause to excuse me from the uncharitableness, which you charge upon me, as towards tender Consciences; for there I speak concerning an objection against the subscribing of the Engagement, taken from the apprehension of offending godly people by subscribing of it; my scope is to answer that Objection upon this presupposal, that, he who takes it, is not, as to his own Conscience, scrupled at the taking of the Engagement; but is to bee swayed merely by his consideration of others: here then to such a one I say, that caeteris paribus( for this is expressly supposed in the proposal of the Case) there is more cause to apprehended a danger of offence in not subscribing, then in subscribing; because there are more offences( even three to one) in the balance, in case of not subscribing: for here I have cause as well as there to apprehended the offence, not onely of many godly brethren, but also of Superiors, and of myself in point of safety; and these two last offences I join in this, that the Magistrate to whom I refuse to give an assurance of my fidelity, may take that refusal, as a just cause given him to deny me necessary protection and safety. For I suppose that the Rule is without all exception, that Protectio trahit Allegianciam;& 'vice versâ Allegiancia Protectionem& è contra: now whether this bee the same case which you charge upon me, I shall leave it to your second thoughts to consider; for here I presuppose myself not at all scrupled in my Conscience, but to bee swayed by mere outward considerations of dangers: and that amongst other dangers I might justly apprehended this; that if I will not show myself faithful to the Magistrate, who is over me, I may fear to bee deprived of the benefit which otherwise I might reap from his office which is necessary protection.  
As for the seeming Contradiction mentioned in your fourth exception, you will easily of yourself reconcile it, and perceive your mistake, if you construe my words right, and leave not out the additional claus, put in of purpose to limit the approbation, the ratifying Consent and the obligation towards the present establishment, which I mean to declare by my subscription; the claus which you have left out in your quotation of my words( which makes them seem to you contradictory to themselves) is this; But thus far onely as I have said. Construe then the whole period by a little transposition of their words in their order, thus, I mean to declare, by my Subscription, my approbation of my ratifying consent unto, and my obligation towards the present establishment; but onely thus far as have said. viz. in the three paragraphs immediately going before, wherein I limit in the first, the approbation, in the second, the ratifying consent, and in the third, the obligation towards the establishment: to show, that although I think not myself bound up by my subscription of the engagement, to the particulars mentioned in the Proposals, which are said to bee different from the Duties, which Subjects owe to Superiors; yet I am willing to acknowledge some kind of approbation of ratifying consent, and of obligation to the establishment included in the subscription; viz. such as is agreeable to those duties, and such as I formerly had described, although then I will not grant, that the subscription to the words of the engagement doth employ those Consequences, whereunto the Proposers would strain them, which they say are opposite to their Oaths and Covenants: yet I refuse not to admit of some other Consequences which I limit, and declare to bee consistent with the Oaths and Covenants; the particulars inferred upon the Subscription by the Proposers, I say, are things which go beyond a clear and known duty; and I conceive, that the words of the Engagement give no ground to interpret the Act of Subscription so; but that I may notwithstanding this rejection of those particulars, infer other particulars of the same kind, agreeable unto a duty upon the same Act of Subscription, is nothing of Contradiction, as to my understanding, nor I hope will bee to yours when you shall consider better of it; and shall not leave out the adversative particle, and the claus which refer you to the limitation, which I think should bee headed about those inferences.  
The fifth thing which you offer, is the hard censure of want of sincerity, you think is pronounced against all those, that can acquiesce in nothing; but in such a Declaration, as shall bee made either by themselves, or their Superiors to their content; but if you look well to my words, you will find also here a clear mistake of my meaning; for my aim is not to speak of all those that have any doubts or scruples about this business; as if none of them were sincere, that will or cannot acquiesce in any thing else but in such a Declaration; I say, my words speak not indefinitely of all such; but they express onely these proposers. For I say distinctly, that in the proposers aim will appear no sincerity in reference to these Proposals, if there is nothing, but this that will content them; because in their Proposals they seem by offering at a treaty, and by desiring to have matters of doubt debated, and reconciled, to seek a rational way of satisfaction to themselves. Now say I, when this way shall bee offered to them, and entered upon, if they then will not follow it ingenuously; but will stand peremptorily upon their own preconceived terms, and agree to nothing, but what they themselves have fancied, must bee declared; In this case I say it is evident, that the aim of the Proposers in the matter of their proposals, is not sincere towards the procurement of a reconciliation, and a just way of satisfaction, which they seem to desire; if you observe then that you mistake the Case by your not heeding the particular Subject whereof I speak, and the presupposals which I lay as the ground of that Censure; I suppose you will absolv me from uncharitableness in this matter; for truly I believe many to bee sincerely scrupled; and yet so weak that without making or receiving a Declaration in their own terms, they cannot bee satisfied; nay, I have met with some such. God forbid, then I should condemn them all for this, to have no sincerity in their scruples; but if men make proposals of ways to have their Scruples taken away, and then will not at all observe the same; but without all rational and ingenuous proceeding will peremptorily prescribe their own terms to others; I think it no uncharitableness to say, that such men in making such proposals have no sincerity, and that this is my meaning in that passage; if you look over it again, I make no doubt you will find it to bee so.  
The sixth Admonition doth compare that which I say of the Proposers, in reference to the continuance of their Proposals, page. 29. with what they might say of me in reference to my late papers; as for the expressions which I have used in that place, I shall not stand to justify them; I shall rather confess that they should have been spared, or otherwise delivered; for when I look upon them, and compare them with the design which I had in that last Section, I find that I am carried further thereby then I did purpose to proceed; for my purpose in the later part of that Section, was not directly to charge the proposers with any politic design, but onely to let them see, as by way of Admonition, how far both the matter and the contrivance of the proposals might bee liable to such an interpretation; if any would give way to suspiciousness, which I do iteratively profess myself to bee free from, and through charity unwilling to entertain: yet upon the supposal, that it is possible some such thing might bee in the mind of some of the Proposers, I would show the way how even in that Case they might receive satisfaction; but the expressions which you have noted; are I perceive more then this design comes to; for they rise up to a positive, and direct charge of that where of I intended onely to give by way of supposition, a warning, as of that which possibly might bee. Thus I observe by myself, that when our spirits dwell upon objects of evil surmises, although it may bee for a good and harmless aim, yet they may easily bee heated above their just measure, and lose their way towards the end of edification, which cannot bee followed otherwise then in the Spirit of Love. As for my papers, if any will examine them, so as to find out the arguments, by which it may bee probably suspected, that my aim is rather to pleas a prevailing party, then to advance Peace and Truth in righteousness towards all, without partiality, I shall not take it ill at his hands; but rather thank him, and blessing God for his brotherly care, try my heart, and judge my thoughts by the occasion thereof, which is all that I would have the proposers do, about the matter whereof I intended to give them warning.  
As for the last matter, which you mention out of page. 21. of the Reproposals, that even good men are too subject to admit of self-mixtures in their best actions; and that I am not to bee exempted from this weakness, no more then others; I shall freely confess it, to bee a truth, and declare moreover, that when I wrote that period of the discourse, I was not without that very consideration of myself; and therefore I did set it down the rather to bee a Caution for myself; least I might neglect the observation of mine own spirit, and course in these matters wherewith I have begun to meddle, which I declare to meddle withal for this only purpose; that I may hold forth the way, how to seek impartially peace by a rule, and to follow holiness with all men, without which no man shall see the Lord. I thank you then for putting me in mind of this my condition, and hope that God will enable me to observe also the rest of that, which you suggest in the close of this admonition.  
To that which you add in shutting up these matters which you have represented; I shall not reply much, onely should bee sorry, that those fears, you speak of, should have any fundamentum in re, more then in the tenderness of your fear: I can truly say, that my labours, according to the best of my skill, do tend to prevent that, which may heighten the heat of the Magistrate's indignation against the truly godly, by setting before them the Rules of an unblamable walking, and by discovering the dangers of a deviation from the same; therefore to let them see the faults, in which some manifestly are taken, and which may bring guilt upon all, that they may avoid, prevent, and rectify the same, is no unfriendlie office; nor can the discovery of failings, which sheweth the cause with the Cure, make any breaches wider, but I conceive that a thorow-searching is the only sound way of healing, and closing of our wounds. I can say with a good conscience, that I have all along endeavoured, upon all occasions, to cast water upon the heats of both sides, lest they might break out into a flamme; and that I have solicited, and will solicit a moderation towards tender Consciences with the best of my industry: but the violence of some tumultuously-clamorous spirits spoil's all.  
The Paragraph which begins with a consideration of the generalty of the Church of Scotland; and end's with a second complaint of my censuring all with unsinceritie, that take not the Engagement, is either assented unto for the main, or hath been rectified in that, wherein the mistake lies by that which hath been said heretofore; onely this I would have observed, that although I will not slight the judgement of any Church, but think reverently of all, yet, that the general opinion of no Church, far less of a foreign Church ought so to bee regarded, as to sway any man's judgement concerning the Civil Sanctions of any State in outward matters: for in such Cases every mans Reason, and the Relations under which he lives, must guid his Conscience to the knowledge of his duty; and what ever is don upon any other consideration, or implicit concurrence with the generality of others, doth ordinarily become a snare to the Conscience.  
Lastly, the Arguments which you use, to persuade me not to lay any more load on those, who are already sinking under the burden of doubts and perplexities, I do consider as true motives to that duty which you press upon me, whereunto, by God's grace I purpose not to bee wanting henceforth, although I am not yet made to see, that heretofore I have been guilty of that Charge, which this exhortation doth presuppose me liable unto: but I can easily, without trouble of mind, God bee thanked, bear with more then such surmises, and Censures amount unto; if I can but gain thereby an unprejudiciate hearing of that, which hereafter I may say towards the easing of those that are burdened with the troubles outwardly, and doubts inwardly, which they occasion to themselves, by walking either without, or contrary to a Rule; for give me leave to say the truth, that in the disquirie of these things which are agitated I pretend; truly I intend, and really endeavour to think nothing; far less to say, or act any thing without a clear rule; and if any time I can give you no account of that, which I say or do, by a Rule which hath lead my thoughts to bring forth those speeches and actions, I hope I shall bee assisted with grace, patiently to bear the blame which I shall deserve for so doing; I give you therefore free leave to call me to an account; for I know I must answer one day at a greater tribunal then yours, and I count it a small matter to bee judged by men; it doth not trouble me at all; yet I shall never despise the judgement of any that may reflect upon me; for I conceive, that God doth speak unto me by every one who is conscionable, and takes notice of me, that I may bee the more solicitous to approve my way unto him; As I therefore am very willing to bear the word of the exhortation in the duty, and motives which you lay before me; so I shall entreat you to do the like, in that which I shall briefly represent unto you. First, let me entreat those who desire the hand of authority not to bee heavier upon them, then as yet it hath been( for as yet I know of nothing don to any) not to provoke authority, but to dissuade those, that set themselves to incens the people against their rulers in their pulpits; one turbulent spirit in this way will procure more wrath to all, then ten intercessors can allaie; for such men make charitable intercessors ashamed to open their mouth towards the Magistrate, seeing they are manifestly seditious. Can a Magistrate bee persuaded to suffer himself to bee trampled upon? Moderate the fierce non-subscribers in the city and country from being injurious, and I am confident God will cause them to find a reciprocation of love from Autoriti●. Secondly, let those who are not turbulent, and find themselves burdened, and pinched with straits, bee entreated to condescend to the use of conscionable, and rational means of easing themselves, which by aimable Treaties and Conferences rightly ordered may bee brought to pass; and what averseness hath been hitherto in some, against this way of finding eas( though they have been begged to it) I am loathe to relate: but if it had been duly entertained, I am sure mistakes might have been rectified, which have heightened men's spirits, and brought us to extremities.  
You may perceive, that my heart is enlarged towards you for your candour; the Lord grant us the conduct of his spirit, to make use of each other's good inclinations to allaie heats and jealousies; whereunto, although I have offered myself with all the candour and humility that I could imagine, to bee required of God, or acceptable unto men; yet I have not been able to obtain any reciprocation from any of the Brethren here in London, who differ in judgement about the present Engagement; not so much as one meeting, to bee able to speak together, though with much earnestness desired by me, and whether the iniquity( as I conceive) of this and some other unchristian usages from the brethren, hath not a little distempered me, when I wrote the last piece, whereat you are now offended, I cannot well tell; but when I call myself to an account of ym thoughts, it seems some such leaven did lye then at the bottom, and was stirred to a paroxysm of fermentation which brought up some froth: but God is able to turn all to the best, if wee despise not one anothe'rs admonitions, but receive them as in his presence, and give them as in the name of Christ in his love: if therefore you will let me hear from you again, and let the other Brethren, whom I am sorry to have offended, for want of due consideration of all tempers, know, what I have said for their and your satisfaction, you will oblige me in the bowels of Christ, more and more to approve myself,  
Sir, 
 Your faithful and affectionate 
 Servant for the Gospel of 
 Peace and Truth 
 JOHN DURIE. 
 Westminster 
 Febr. 21. 
 Anno 1649/ 50.   

The second Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
I Return you many thanks, for your pains and patience, in seeking to give satisfaction to the doubts propounded, in the paper I directed to you, I acquainted some of my godly friends with it, who, though they bee yet unsatisfied touching the main question; yet most of them are fully satisfied touching your own candour and integrity, and do now think, that which you did by your writings, was don upon conscientious grounds, or not to serve the times. I will not bee so uncivil or unthankful, as to trouble you now with any tedious reply,( though much might bee said) but onely acquaint you with some scruples, as still do pinch some pious minds, who would bee glad, if they could meet with any help for the right clearing of them.  
First, they do not fully apprehended what you mean, by that known duty which you often urge; if it bee, that wee engage to live quietly& make no disturbance this hath been often offered, but will not satisfy. If it bee to submit to the higher powers, because they are of God: you know a thing may bee said to bee of God two ways, namely, either in regard of his providence, or of his precept. Now the difficult is, whether providence alone may bee the rule of own actions, or approbation of other men's: if it may, then wee may approve of Absolon's incest, because God saith he did it, 2 Sam. 12. 12. And so all evil actions of evil men are guided by his providence: If precept bee needful, they cannot see how the present higher powers are of God: because they were not called of God; but have chosen and set up themselves in these places; for however some of them were at first chosen for other purposes( as to contribute their help in making Laws, and seeing the Laws well executed) yet they were never chosen to bee the supreme power of the Nation So that this new Government being neither grounded upon the old Law of the Nation, nor any new agreement of their representations( the greatest part of them being either by violence withheld, or deterred from coming) this makes it difficult to discern how the higher powers may bee said to bee of God.  
Secondly, they think that Oaths to God do oblige not onely for the present, but for the future, according to the sens wherein they were both imposed and taken: but it was neither the intention of the imposers, nor theirs when they took them, that kingly Government should bee taken away, or that the present King and his posterity should bee deprived of it, but the quiter contrary; for they did swear that they would bee drawn by no power on earth from their allegiance to them. Neither will the King's miscarriage bee a sufficient ground to absolv them, from their Oath of Allegiance to him and his; because the Oath was absolute, not conditional. Besides, look how God commands obedience. So they did swear obedience; but all the commands of obedience to higher powers, both in Rom. 13. and in other places, are absolute, and not upon condition of their good carriage. In like manner, as he commands servants to bee subject to their masters: not onely to those who were good and gentle, but to those who were froward, and who did them wrong, 1 Pet. 2. 18. Neither would there bee any place left for suffering, either by Subjects or servants, if obedience were onely conditional.  
Thirdly, They think that though they bee not competent judges of State matters, yet they are competent judges of their own actions( for which they must give an account to God, and they know, whatever they shall do doubtfully, they do sinfully ( for whatever is not of faith is sin) and the owning of the present power as of God is doubtful to them,( at least) upon the grounds before mentioned. Besides, by subscribing, they do not onely own the present power, but also the imposing of the Engagement( if not directly, yet indirectly) which they cannot see how it agree's with the rule that require's higher powers, should bee a terror to the evil, not to the good, as by this means they are.  
Fourthly, for matter of offence, they think those whom the Apostle bids us take heed not to offend, are the weak brethren, now he is a weak brother who think's a thing to bee a thing unlawful( suppose it bee lawful) because it seems to bee against some rule of the word( as this Engagement seems to bee against the rule, touching oaths and promises, that they should bee kept though to our own hindrance. And thus the refusers onely, not the imposers, or those who have already taken it, are to bee accounted weak Brethren.  
Fifthly, for the judgement of the Church of Scotland, or other Divines, they think, that in clear evident truths, any human judgement dissenting, is not much to bee regarded, but that in difficult, doubtful things the spirits of the Prophets ought to bee subject to the Prophets, else wee shall overthrow all use of Synods, and follow the tract of Enthusiasts, and such as think themselves guided by an infallible spirit. Thus I have been bold to open the doubts of some good men unto you, hoping you will entertain them with some secrecy, and the like spirit of love and meekness as before, and at your convenient leisure you will not refuse to yield them a little further help. Our good God guid us so in all our thoughts and actions, that wee may neither do, nor think any thing that may bee displeasing to him.  
Yours in the best bond. 
 March this 25. 
 1650.   

The Answer to the second Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
YEsterday's late coming home, I found yours of the 25th of March; whereby I perceived that mine was com'n safe to your hands; and that you make a charitable construction of the things which I did writ unto you; which is no small refreshment unto my spirit, in the midst of these heats wherein wee are fallen, which God hath sent for our trial; and which will bee a great advantage to the purifying of our souls, if wee bebave our selvs orderly therein. As for the scruples which you are pleased to acquaint me withall, that some help may bee supplied for the cleared thereof; although they do not stumble me, but me thinks I see light enough through them; yet I cannot say that they are not to bee counted scruples; or that they are easily to bee cleared; for although to me they are no great difficulties; yet I conceive to others they may bee, who reflect not upon matters by such principles as I do; and with those considerations which I take up: nor is it in the power of any man, to make another capable of his Principles and Considerations; but God alone is able to do it; and all that wee can bee helpful to one another in, is to offer to one another so much light as wee have received; and if wee offer it in love, without partiality, and with a true meaning to advance Righteousness and Holiness, it may, by God's blessing, become useful unto Edification; chiefly, if wee strive for one another towards God with our prayers, that wee may become helpers of each other's joy, through the grace which he bestoweth upon us, to profit withall. I shall therefore, not undertake to draw these scruples; for that would bee presumption, God alone can do it; but I shall humbly offer to those pious mindes, that are scrupled, my light; with all truth and sincerity, as it is in my heart; praying to God, that if it bee from his spirit, it may so appear to them, as to clear their understandings from mistakes.  
The first scruple you mention, is concerning my expression, what I mean by that known dutie●, which I often urge. I wish you had pointed out a place or two, that I might have been able to speak more directly to your satisfaction, then now I can do; perhaps, I shall say therefore, that, till I bee  told, where that expression is used( for I cannot readily light upon it, having cursorily look't upon the considerations) I think that I have meant throughout, nothing else, but a seeking of the Peace and welfare of the society wherein wee live; for I think it is a known duty in christianity, that wee should serve one another through love for our good; and not bee taken off from this course, so far as others are capable to receive good from us, notwithstanding the evil which may bee in them, the duty which the Apostle mention's, Phil. 2. 14; 15, 16. is that, which I would have all men, but chiefly Ministers in these times to lay to heart: and you have the third, or fourth Edition of the Considerations, you will see at the end of it, the extract of a Letter; and my Answer thereunto, which containeth that duty, which I conceive to bee clear, and known to all, who will look upon the Engagement in the obvious sens thereof.  
By this you see, that I mean not onely a passive, but an active dutifulness, in things good and lawful under the present powers, let them bee what they will; as for that which you scruple, to submit to the powers, because they are of God, as if that reason were not sufficient, because, things may bee said to bee of God, either Prudentially, or Preceptively; now Providence alone( say you) is not the rule of our own actions, or approbation of other men's. I confess this to bee so. But yet I find, that the apostles reason, why he commands all Christians to bee subject to higher powers, to bee none other but this; viz. because there is no power but of God; and because the powers that bee, are ordained of God; Rom. 13. 1. So that the exception which you make seems to me, to bee directly against the apostles reasoning, which I suppose you intended not to contradict: and if the roman Christians under Nero would have disobeied lawful and Moral Commands, wherein the Apostle onely bids them submit, they might have made your exception against his being of God, as fully as this is made against the present powers over us. If then the scruple strike's rather at the force of the apostles Argument, then at any thing else, I think, I am bound to vindicate his reasoning from the force of the doubt; which may bee don thus; that God's appointment of a power over us, is a just cause to oblige us to submission thereunto, whether he doth it Providentially or Preceptively; or both ways: I say that in things lawful and good, Submission is due, because the power in place is of God; and he that resist's it, resist's God's ordinance, saith the Apostle. But you will say, if it bee onely providentially of God, so was Absolom's incest, and is no rule, either to warrant mine own, or for me to approve other's mens actions? to this I say; it is true, when you have a precept to walk by, you must not make God's acts of Providence over you a rule, to warrant any designs which contradict the precepts, which are given you to walk by; but when things are to bee look't upon by you; not as your own, or other men's Actions; but as determined events, which God hath appointed to fall out, in a way of Justice and judgement; then you ought not to set yourself against the same, but in things lawful ought to approve the same; so of Absolom's incest, wee must say that God's providence ordered it for judgement over David, for a punishment of his adultery; and in that respect it was good; but as it was the effect of Achitophel's wicked policy to make matters desperate, and a satisfying of Absolom's lust, and a dishonour to his Father, and a shameless act, it was evil, and highly to bee condemned; thus in the events of things befallen to us, which are the changes of powers over us; first the King, then the parliament, then the army; and now again the Parliament; these events in themselves are neither good nor evil to us, as God hath brought them about, and ordered their succession for judgement, they were all good; and every power in it's own time was to bee submitted unto, by those that were under it, because it was of God for the time over them, and if in things lawful they resisted it: they did resist the ordinance of God,& might justly bee brought under condemnation by it; but each of these powers, as they might bee in the persons of unjust men, who by subtlety or violence( as Absolom and Achitophel did) thrust out others of the possession of their places to attain their ends; in this respect they were evil; and as men contrary in their walking to the will of God, they must not bee approved of: that is to say, their ambition, fraud, violent practices, &c. are not to bee approved of: Nevertheless, if God's Providence order it so, that they bee set up as the higher power; I suppose they are to bee look't upon as ordained by God, to that place, and obeyed in things good and lawful: their unlawful coming to their places, after that they have gotten full possession, doth not absolv any private soul from the obligation of being subject, and obedient in things good and lawful. Thus Providence, as to events becomes a Rule to oblige us, to do things for our selvs good and lawful; and to approve of the same in others.  
You say, if precept bee needful, they cannot see how the present powers are of God: because they were not called of God: but have chosen and set up themselves. To this I say, that certainly precept is needful for every man to walk by in all his actions, and what he doth without the warrant of a Rule, is don sinfully: but yet I must add this, that it doth not follow, that if the powers which are in place, are not so come to their place, that I can see that they are called by God to it, according to a precept, that therefore I must, or may think they are not of God; for although their Calling, or coming to their place is not to me clear, to bee conformable to a precept; yet it may bee so to themselves, and to others; and I am not to bee a judge in things of that nature; but I suppose that it is clearly contrary to all Rule and Precept, that which they have don to come to their places; and that not I onely, but all men, and they themselves will confess it; and say as caesar did; Si violandum est jus, regnandi caussâ violandum est; in caeteris pietatem colito. Suppose( I say) this to bee so; shall I therefore say, that they are not the present power, when I see them actually in full possession of the place of all power over me? or shall I say that they are not of God; when I hear the Apostle saying clearly, without any limitation in the negative, first, there is no power; but of God; and then in the affirmative; the powers that bee, are ordained of God: all powers then are of God one way or other; and being of him, I must not resist, but submit in things lawful. Look upon Mr Perkins in his Treatise of Callings, where he speaks of Christ, and the Apostles submitting themselves to the powers, that then were in and over Judea; and Calvini. Justit. lib. 4. c. 20. parag. 28. speaking of Nebuchadnezar, whom he set's up as a precedent of an usurped power to bee obeyed; he hath these words, observandum est quâ ratione ipsum Dominus stabiliat. Detuli, inquit, Nebuchadnezari Regnum; quare servite illi& vivite; cuicunque ergò delatum fuisse regnum constabit, ei serviendum esse nè dubitemus, atque simulae in Regium fastigium quempiam evehit Dominus; testatam nobis facit suam voluntatem, quòd regnare illum velit, &c.  
Touching the calling of these men to their places; and what the nature of their place is; how far they are authorized ordinarily, or extraordinarily to make Laws, or see them executed; and whether by their choice they bee made the supreme power or no, is not a thing of every private man's cognizance, so as to bee bound to determinate it; and according to his private opinion, to bee obliged to act, or not to act for Conscience sake with them, or against them: I say, to me such considerations are heterogeneal to my calling, and whatever I think of them, and of their calling to their places, that is not material, as to the point of duty, which I owe them, as being in full possession of the government. As for themselves, they think their calling doth bear them out in every thing which they have don; and I find not that my calling doth bear me out to argue, as some do, the matter against them: but if it may bee a satisfaction to you, or to others, I shall bee willing to let you know more at large, what they say for themselves in these particulars, which truly I know not how any body can well answer; but whether their allegations can bee answered or not, it is not further headed by me, then may serve to give others some in sight into that, which they seem rationally to allege for themselves.  
Thus I have  told you my sens of your first scruple; the second is concerning Oaths. The promissory Oaths which men make one to another, are obliging, or not obliging, according to the possibility and lawfulness of the intentions of those, that impose and take them; and I conceive, the taker of an Oath is no further obliged to the intention of the imposer, then either is clearly expressed by him in the words of the oath; or in some previous, or subsequent Declaration, assented unto by the taker; or then the taker doth declare himself to bee obliged thereunto: therefore to prevent mistakes, I did for mine own part, both in the national Covenant, and in this Engagement declare my sens and intention in taking them; which being allowed, I find myself obliged thereto, now if it fall out, that the imposer's intention doth alter( as upon good and valid grounds men's intentions may bee altered) from what it was at first( for if the thing intended, which was once lawful and possible, by change of circumstances becomes unlawful, and impossible; and this bee made known by the imposer of the oath to him that takes it,) then the Question must bee, whether in such case the taker is not absolved from his obligation? there bee many things in the National Covenant of different natures; some are by circumstances changeable, some altogether unchangeable, the Relation which the two Nations have each to other; if either of the Nations break it( as it is in the power of all Rulers, to break, or keep entire friendly relations with their neighbour Nations) how far the other is bound to keep it, I think it not difficult to bee determined, friends are relatives; and I can bee no longer in a relation of friendship to any, then he will own friendship with me; if he break his Covenant therefore, and make himself an enemy to me, I am not bound any longer by the tie of that Covenant to bee his friend: yet other ties of an higher nature may bee upon me, to keep me from being his enemy: for there is a midst between friendship, and hostility; and if the Rulers of the State, wherein I live, bring me under a National relation with a neighbour Nation, to bee in friendship with it at one time; and at another time bring me to contrary relation towards it; I conceive that I am concluded by what they do either way; and that in such a case the breach of Covenant doth lye at their door, and not at mine, if I in my place have been careful not to give occasion thereunto, and thus I conceive all other actions of a public nature, that I am concluded therein; to stand under the Relations, which those that manage the same bring upon one thereby, as to outward matters: though not as to a professed concurrence of my intentions with them, further then they expressly call me thereunto, and I expressly declare my concurrence in that way, and when I have declared my intentions, then so far as I declare them, and as they remain possible and lawful by me, to bee prosecuted in my way; I am bound to intend them; and I conceive, that they are not to be counted longer possible, nor lawful for me to bee prosecuted in my way; then they are consistent with the main and fundamental Duties of my calling and place, as I am a Christian, and as I am a Subject and a profitable member to the Common-wealth wherein I live; for all particular obligations, whether confirmed by oaths, or otherwise, are perpetually subordinate in their nature, and presupposed by a tacit condition to bee consistent with these, or otherwise to bee ipso facto voided. By these general Rules, and maxims concerning promissory oaths between man and man, in matters of public concernment; wherein, I by my place am to bee concluded by others that are over me; I think myself free from perjury, if a change fall out therein, so as to make me incapable to prosecute the intentions once sincerely taken up; for the intention of the taker of an oath being constant, and sincere to that which he hath promised, according to the circumstances of matters which then were in being, when the promise was made, doth absolv him before God, and his own conscience, from perjury; for he will profess himself always bound to prosecute the same intention, and will endeavour it to the utmost of his ability, so long as those circumstances last, which make the intention lawful and possible; but if the circumstances which made his intention lawful at first, bee afterward altered so, that the intention doth become unlawful, if prosecuted under those circumstances; then it is no breach of promise in him, if he doth not prosecute his first intention; for it is not lawful so to intend the prosecution of any outward human business; as to oblige our selvs, in what cases and circumstances soëver to follow; Conscience can bee obliged to follow nothing so absolutely, but the will of God; and although no condition bee expressed in promissory oaths when they are taken, yet in the very nature of them, the conditions which I have mentioned are implied, and need never to bee mentioned: if you will now apply these positions to your second scruple, and reflect upon the intentions, which then were taken up towards the King's Person and authority, as circumstances then were; and the obligation in private persons, such as wee are, to prosecute them as circumstances now are, you will perhaps find light to eas you of your scruple in this matter. For I shall for mine own part declare this; that, if things were now as formerly they were, when the Covenant was offered, I would find myself obliged to prosecute the effect thereof, in reference to the King now, as then I was bound to do; but things being so altered, that there is no King in being; but another Government over me, I am absolved from the former relation, by those that manage public affairs, and obliged to intend the duties of a true Christian, and good Subject, under the present relations wherein God hath set me. As for those that have taken away that object of my former Allegiance, which went under the name of a King, and brought upon me the necessity of this change of intention, by their acting in public affairs; I am none of their judges, but must leave them to him, to whom they are accountable of their Administrations; if they in making the change did according to that, which they thought in conscience to bee their duty, they will fare the better for it in the end: but if they had another aim, then to discharge their conscience in their duty, it will bee wors with them; and this is all that I am bound to say for them, as to this in general.  
Now the particulars of your Scruple on this Subject run's out upon the facts of other men( which are not your Guilt) to show the guilt which they seem to have incurred by altering the government from monarchy to democracy: for you say that they swore never to bee drawn by any power on earth from their Allegiance to the King and his posterity; and that their intention was not to deprive, but to preserve the King and his posterity in their government. I confess it was so; and yet you see that the relation once intended to bee maintained towards him and his posterity is altered; and if you ask them the cause, they will tell you, that they have altered their intention justly and necessary upon warrantable grounds; as that the nature of their promise of Allegiance to him and his posterity was not absolute, but Conditionate; that in the third Article of the National Covenant, the Conditions implicitly understood in the Oath of Allegiance are explicitly mentioned: that his( viz. the King's) across walking to these Conditions( although they intended to maintain their Allegiance) hath forced them from it, against their will, that it is no power, nor fear that hath made them to alter their purpose; but a necessary duty for public safety to discharge their trust; this they will say; and they will deny that which you say, that the Oath was meant absolutely and without all respect to Conditions; as if Allegiance should have been due unto him without any respect to his Legal standing and capacity; and if Allegiance was only due to him in this respect; then it was first due to the Law itself; and to the Law-making power before it was due to him; and to him only as subordinate thereunto: If therefore his Miscarriage be such as to intend the overthrow of that; by which he only could stand; then he overthrow's himself, and no body can help him to stand without a foundation or is obliged to it. This they will pled to justify their proceeding to an alteration. And then to that which you say further; viz. that Obedience is commanded in an absolute sens, and not upon Condition of their good carriage: that it is commanded as that which Servants owe to froward Masters; Rom. 13.& 1 Pet. 2. 18.( I say) to this they will confess, that such a subjection is indeed Commanded to every private person, and due to the powers that are in plenary possession of the government; from their Subjects; but they will deny that the Parliament or those that are employed by their authority are to bee look't upon as private persons, or as Subjects in their actings: they will tell you: that all the power of the King is virtually in the Parliament; and eminently above him in a higher sphere of trustees and representatives of the Nation; Whose sitting to act in a capacity above him doth not only subordinate him in his way of acting for the time of their Sitting: but doth in some sort suspend his whole influence upon the Subject as to government: which King james well understood, and therefore called the parliament a society of 400 Kings, and himself for the time as no body: for he is but as a Servant to see the laws which are made executed; but that the trustees and representatives of the Nation have the law-making power in them by the law of nature and the positive Law of the Land. And lastly when you say that there will be no place left for suffering; if obedience bee only conditional, they will tell you that Parliaments are not called by God and nature, nor in the intention of the Nation to suffer, but to rectify the Causes of unjust sufferings; and to reduce the exorbitance of Kings into a right order. Now when they, who are in places of power, say say all this, who is it amongst the private Subjects that can justly contest with them? or control them? except he have an immediate Commission to them from the most High; and if none without such a Commission is obliged to judge them, their failings are no matter of scruple to any private man's Conscience, they may bee a matter of grief and prayer for them, for why must I bee scrupled at doing that which is my duty at present, because I suspect another hath not don his duty, of whom yet I am not set to bee a judge.  
The third scruple is this; that all Subjects are to be allowed a competency of judgement concerning their own actions, though not of State-matters: because unto God they are accountable for whatsoëver they shall do: and if they do any thing doubtfully, they sin. Now the owning of the present power as of God, is doubtful to them; if therefore having the forementioned grounds of scruple they do own it, they will sin; it is therefore necessary for them either to have the grounds of their scruple cleared or not to own them, if the doubt cannot bee cleared.  
To all this I shall say; that it is a truth that men must bee allowed to bee Judges of their own actions, and that if they do any thing without Faith, it is sin in them, if therefore they are in doubt of that which is offered to bee don, I think they are bound to suspend the doing thereof, till they bee clear, that they can do it without sin. But then also I conceive they are bound to use means to have their Scruple cleared one way or other; and that in the use of those means they ought not to entangle their Conscience into a judicature of matters which are beyond the sphere of their own actings; but should only strictly inquire what their own duty is in their special Callings; and if the Brethren would have don this; or could have been persuaded to have entred upon any rational course tending to accomplish this. I am confident much of the danger, if not all, whereinto they have cast themselves and the public, might have been prevented, and they cleared in the scruples which they entertain and put into the heads of other men. I speak this concerning some, whose actings I know have had a great influence upon others; whose scruples have run out upon the interpretation of State-matters, whereof they were not at all made Judges, either in public to censure those that do manage the same; or otherwise to possess their fellow-Subjects by finister informations with jealousies against them; if these had not made themselves {αβγδ} in this matter, but would have contained their thoughts within their own limits, and the bounds of the Rule; they would have prevented the snare's, whereinto by such considerations they have brought their own Consciences, and the Consciences of others that respect them; for mine own part, I did endeavour( foreseing that the custom already taken up to meddle in these matters, would upon this occasion bee more then ever followed) to prevent the further practise; or to take off by conscionable rules some that were too much inclined that way, by a Treatise upon that Subject, first in brief, and then more at large; but this was look't upon as a time-serving practise: and a cloak to sinful compliances for private ends: and afterward, when the house of Parliament begun to consider of an engagement, as a ground to settle matters and the mindes of men, to entertain a mutual relation of friendship one with another, in a Common-wealth-waie; before the Engagement was published while's men were full of fears, and apprehensions about it, what it might tend unto; I did negotiate with some of our chief leading men, for a private conference, to bring on, with their concurrence, a treaty, between godly and dissenting Brethren, lest upon new emergencies( as is fallen out) wee might bee irrecoverably distracted, and divided within our own thoughts, and towards one another; or rather from each other by jealousies to incline them hereunto, I did represent, that nothing would bee our preservation, but our right understanding of one another in that wherein wee do agree, to hold forth our union therein to all the world; and our determination of some regular course to prevent offences, and breaches for the things wherein there might bee some disagreement, and diversity of opinions, which upon new emergencies might arise, or bee cast in perhaps to divide us; here then I proposed this Method, seeing it was apparent enough, that Satan's aim in all these confusions, was, to overthrow the profession of christianity, and put down the ministery thereof by gaining, and taking an opportunity in this change of Government, and time of licentiousness, to vent all manner of damnable Heresies against the fundamental Truths, which are after godliness in Christ Jesus; First by dividing the mindes of the witnesses of this Truth about outward concernments, one from another, so that they should not bee able, or willing to concur, or agree, about that which is their great and main concernment, viz. The testimony of Jesus. Secondly, by making them, through the neglect of their main concernment, ( viz. the testimony of the life and death, and Resurrection of Jesus, and of the Covenant of Peace, between God and us in him) to become contemptible to the world; and through their meddling with heterogeneal concernments of the world, to become an eie-sore, and an object of jealousy to the secular Powers. Thirdly, by engaging them into parties about State-affairs, to make them the ring-leaders of designs, or at least, to bee counted such( which is almost all one, as to his end) that the guilt of public evils, and miscarriages, may bee imputed unto them more then to others. Seeing( I say) these were Satan's aims; I proposed this Method for us, to proceed in some conference, tending to prevent the evils, and to settle us in an agreement about future proceedings.  
First, that wee should consider and draw, how to proceed unanimously, as one man, by undoubted scriptural Rules, in opposing fundamental Heresies, and upholding the fundamental truths of christianity, and the practise of godliness.  
Secondly, that wee should consider and draw, how to own unanimously, and upon what undeniable grounds, to profess our being in the ministery; what to own therein, as jure Divino; and what to acknowledge to bee but prudential.  
Thirdly, that wee should consider and draw, how to maintain the Engagement which wee lye under, by reason of the National Oath, and Covenant; what therein, as to us, in these times is altered; and what for ever is unalterably to bee prosecuted.  
Fourthly, and lastly, that wee should consider, and predetermine, in case a new Engagement bee offered( for when I made these proposals to some, the Engagement was not yet voted) by what Rules wee ought to walk; to bee able to find out the inoffensive way of doing our duty towards all, aswell Superiors as equals.  
These proposals were made to more then one or two, as preparatives to bring on an agreement, between the dissenting godly parties about Church-Government, and Discipline: that the door which their division hath opened, to let in all manner of disorderlines, in the profession of Religion, might bee stopped at last, and Satan lose the advantages which he hath gotten thereby against us: but they were not hearkned unto: either, because I was look't upon as a stranger; or as a subtle man that served Stateends, for some advantage to myself, and made this proposal a cloak onely to some further design; or because men's spirits were straightened, and prepossessed with particular apprehensions, and could not bee raised to an impartial contemplation of that which was truly public, and then seasonable to bee don. But if these matters had then been thought upon, or could yet bee determined, so, as to clear our judgments to one another; and to all the world, in that which concerns our duty in our sphere of acting; without reflecting upon others, in that whereof wee are not made their judges; there would not bee so much animosity, and so many mistakes, and destructive jealousies, as now are amongst us; nor could wee bee so much in the dark, and under so many scruples, and snares of conscience as now wee do lye, for want of following this method of proceeding in determining the matters, whereof wee are made competent judges; for if wee had judged these matters by the Rules and Principles, wherein wee are fully agreed; or did yet exercise our selvs by the right use of these Rules and Principles, to judge our own actions in these matters, rather then other men's failings from their duties, wherein to us they are not accountable, wee would find light to walk in these occasions without doubting; and see cause, to cast off the scruples which are raised upon the grounds before mentioned; as being matters whereof wee are not competent judges, and without the consideration of which, our actings relating to the public, may, and ought to bee regulated: and can bee regulated by the rational and conscionable disquirie of the forenamed proposals; which I have offered now unto you, as formerly to others, that you may see, that I am so far from restraining my brethren to bee competent judges of their own actings; that it hath been one of my designs, to bring them to a regular way of judging thereof; that they might not walk doubtfully therein, as now they do.  
Those things being thus at large premised to what I am about to say, for the resolving of your third scruple; I shall entreat you to consider, whether the former scruple, concerning the alteration of the government against the oath of Allegiance, taken by those that did alter it; is not raised in us, by a judicature of State-matters, whereof you confess us not to bee competent judges: and if no competent judges, then( I say) no judges at all; to define matters with reference to our conscience, to say, whether they have don well or ill; but I must say they stand or fall, to their own master in this business of the alteration of Government; I may, as a rational man, and a Subject concerned in point of Common-welfare, look upon their actions in altering the government, with the eye and judgement of discretion, to discern what they say, and what they do for the alteration: but when I am gon to the utmost extent of my discerning faculty, yet I must make none other definition, but such as keep's my conscience free from being obliged, to give a sentence which will scruple me in the points of duty towards them. If they say that the judicature of all the King's actions doth belong unto them, as they are the Representatives and Trustees of a free Nation, which he was to govern by Laws, which they shall choose, and not by will; and that he for raising war against them, and refusing to give an account of his actions,( to those whom they appointed as judges in their name, to call him to an account of treasonable enterprises) hath been deprived of the government wherewith he was entrusted, and of his life, and that, as in Cases of Treason, by the Law of nature, and of Nations, the prerogative which he lost for himself, was also forfeited for his posterity; and that their proceedings against him, and those that would support him in his pretended interest of absoluteness, above parliaments, or of independency from them; are such as they will answer to God for; and as they will undertake to show their grounds of, before all the world, and if according to these sayings, they do make Laws, to settle us in another relation one to another, and under themselves( that is under the constant government of Representatives) without a King, and house of Lords; If( I say) I can clearly discern, that they say, and do all this, without turbulencie of spirit, in a way of counsel, rationally and orderly behaving themselves; looking aswell to God, as to men, and professing according to their light, a willingness to keep a good conscience towards both, at all times, if( again I say) when I use the judgement of discretion, I find things thus constituted with them, what shall I say other, but that this thing is of God; that his will must bee don in earth as in heaven; that power belongeth unto him, and that he exalteth over the Kingdoms of men, whomsoëver he pleaseth: If I find them by these Principles, and actings in their places of trust over me, to intend orderly courses; and mind the things belonging to commonsafetie; I cannot see what warrant I have to disown them to bee of God. Sure I am, except God had disowned the King's exercise of power, and blasted his Counsels, and given him up to these men, to bee judged by them, as he was, they could have don nothing unto him; if then God hath disowned him, and owned these in the sight of all the world, and doth entrust them with the management of all public affairs; who am I, to take upon me to disown them in the places wherewith they are actually possessed, except I had a commission from him, to let them see, that either their Principles of acting are not allowed by him, or that their actings are not according to their Principles? but if I am not enabled to do either of these two; but rather am convicted that the Principles, which they have taken up, are of God in them; and that their actings by these Principles, with Counsel and courage, by a professed confidence in him, have been carried on in an orderly course to this issue by his Providence; then I must own them thus far to bee of God; and look upon them as instruments in his hand; to bring about this alteration of affairs, to fulfil his judgments one way; his mercies another way, and both ways his determined Counsel, which hath concluded me under their power, and doth subordinate me in my calling under their actings, to do my duty without grudging, or murmuring, without disputing and scrupulosity, being harmless and blameless in my way, as it becometh a child of God, holding forth the word of life and light, as the rule of my walking.  
Thus then I conclude upon these grounds; that if I do own them in their places by any dutisul actings in my calling, I do not sin; but rather fulfil that which I am bound to think( according to the judgement of discretion concerning them; and the definitive judgement of duty in christianity concerning myself) is the will of God, and the work of my present calling; for if I by doing my duty, and having none other aim, but to act within my sphere; do eventually set them up, and own them in their places; I must attribute that unto God's ordering of matters; and leave the effect thereof unto him; but if I should think, that because I suppose such an event will follow, that therefore I must not intend my present duty; I say if I should think thus; then I walk not in simplicity, but according to the wisdom of this world; and I predetermine in my thoughts, the events which are onely in God's hands; and I follow not a clear and universal rule in my actings; but the rule of a design, which I have framed to myself, upon a conjectural apprehension of some event, which I would not have come to pass; for in effect, it is as much as if I had said thus; I do not see that these men are of God; and because I see it not; I will do nothing, no not the best duties of my present calling, lest by doing that which is my duty, I seem to own them, and lest it may tend to confirm them in their places: which in my apprehension would bee to drive a design against the present powers, by a sinful neglect of doing my duty to the public: which how it can bee warrantable in christianity, I know not.  
The last part of the third scruple, is an aggravation of the doubt; When you say: besides by subscribing, they do not onely own the power, but also the imposing of the engagement;( if not directly, yet indirectly) which they cannot see how it agree's with the Rule, that require's higher powers should bee a terror to evil, not to the good, as by this means they are.  
If in the first part of the scruple, when you said, that though private men bee no competent judges of State-matters, yet they are competent judges of their own actions; you meant by their own actions, their owning or disowning the present power, viz. that they were to judge competently, whether the present power was to bee owned or disowned by themselves, yea, or no; I shall in some sens grant this; as thus. First, that they were definitively to determine with themselves, what every private man is bound to do, as a Christian towards the present powers, to own them or disown them, according to the Rule of obedience, prescribed by God in the word. Secondly, that they were also definitively to determine with themselves, what the present powers are, that are actually over them, who are obedientially to bee owned or disowned. In these two cases it is clear, that every man must bee allowed to judge, who is actually over him in power, and by what Rule of obedience he ought to walk under him, as owning him in his place; but if the sens bee this, that every man is competently to judge his own actions, in respect of the confequence which they may have, towards the owning, or the disowning of the present powers; and accordingly as he shall see cause, to own them or disown them, that he may act or not act, as he shall think his action conducing to one or the other end; so that the aim of owning or of disowning shall become the measure of the rectitude of his actions: if( I say) this bee the meaning of those words, then I must deny any man to bee a competent judge of his own actions: for no man is to judge of the rectitude, or unrighteousness of his actions by the eventualitie thereof, which he may propose unto himself will follow: for in this sens I take the Prophet's words: O Lord! I know that the way of man is not in 
Jer. 10. 23.  himself; if is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. This is true, as to the event; no man can direct any thing which he doth to any event; and therefore he is to measure nothing by the eventualitie thereof, in his own apprehension, but he is bound to measure it by a Rule and Precept, and in this sens the contrary is true, viz. It is in man that walketh to direct his steps, else this promise would bee in vain: he that ordereth his conversation aright, shall see the salvation of God, Psal. 50. 23. and the Commandement; See that ye walk circumspectly, {αβγδ} not as fools, but as wise, Ephes. 5. 15. it is therefore in a man as his duty, to direct his steps by a rule, but it is not in himself at all to direct his steps to any event whatsoëver; for it is said, that man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own ways, Prov. 20. 24. God's providence doth order all men's goings to his secret ends, and by his own counsel to determined effects; therefore it is not possible for a man to understand the eventual tendencie of his own way; and if it is not possible for him to understand this, then it is not lawful for him to measure, or judge the nature of his action by this; now if I do not mistake the matter and meaning of this scruple, it seems first to assert that for them, to own the present powers to bee of God, is a sin; upon this account; because it is doubtful to them upon the grounds before mentioned:( which were pure State-considerations) and what is not of faith is sin; ergò they may do nothing, which in their judgement tends to own them as of God; for although they are no competent judges of State-matters, yet they are competent judges of their own actions; and if they judge their own actions to bee an owning of them, as of God: then to them, to do these actions is a sin; and consequently, they must abstain from them, although in themselves the actions bee never so good; onely because they judge them to have a tendencie eventually to speak, and own such a thing, whereof they doubt, and which they would not have them to speak; therefore they think themselves bound in conscience to abstain from them, which I think is a great mistake, as already hath been shewed; and upon this mistake, the second part of the scruple assert's, that in the act of subscribing, there is more sin then in other obediential Acts: upon this account, because it doth tend, not onely to own the present power; but also the imposing of the Engagement, at least indirectly. Now say you, they may do nothing, either directly, or indirectly, which may own the imposing of the Engagement; and why? because, say you, they cannot see how the Engagement agree's with the rule that require's higher powers should bee a terror to the evil, not to the good; as by this means they are. If you had said, because they cannot see any thing required in the Engagement, to bee agreeable to the rule of a Christian's walking, or the duty of Subjects to the higher powers, the reason would have been to my judgement satisfactory; and wee must have examined the nature of the things required in the Engagement; to know whether they were inconsistent with the rules of christianity, and the duty of Subjects; and upon the discovery of what is meant by being true and faithful to the Common-wealth, as it is now established, without a King and house of Lords wee might have come to some conclusion; for if there had been found in these words a sens consistent with those rules, and this duty; then the scruple could have been resolved: and the Conscience settled; but now this cannot bee don; because the Scruple is not fixed upon the material part of the Engagement; which is our private concernment, to see what wee thereby are obliged to do; and so accordingly to draw to bee engaged or not to bee engaged thereunto: but it is fixed upon a Construction which is made of the intention of the higher powers in proposing the engagement, and upon the disagreement of that which they do, by the proposal of the engagement, with that which the rule of their calling doth require of them. Now to me a scruple so fixed is wholly to be rejected: because I find it not lawful for me to make myself a judge either of their intentions; or of their particular actings, how agreeable they are with the rules of their calling, I may tell them as well as other men what their intentions ought to bee, and how they should take heed to the rule of their Calling; this I may, and ought to do in these; but in Hypothesi to judge positively what their intentions are( except I were one of their Counsel) and what their actings are in order to a rule( except I were made acquainted with all the Circumstances of their state) is a thing which I dare not undertake; far less then may I upon the supposal of such a judgement concerning their intentions or actings, be obliged to suspend mine own resolution from doing the duties of my calling, or scruple my Conscience about acting things lawful in my place. I dare not say then, that by the means of the engagement, they either intend to bee, or are a terror to the good, and not to the evil, contrary to the rule given by God to higher powers. But I look upon the imposing of it with the judgement of discretion, to bee a thing, which they think absolutely necessary for common safety; and therefore press with a severe penalty: which I must leave them to answer for, if there be no such necessity; but in the definitive judgement of christianity, as the engagement relat's to me, I find a duty in it; whereunto I am required to oblige myself; which in Conscience I cannot refuse to do; and so Subscribe it with a full purpose to perform the duty which the law of christianity and of a good Subject doth require. What Consequences may follow upon, and what interpretations others may make of this my action, I am not solicitous of, I look to nothing further then to the warrantableness of that which I do at present. For as in reason, Ex vero nîl nisi verum: So in morality and christianity Ex bono nîl nisi bonum sequitur per se.  
As for matters of offence( the subject of your fourth Scruple) which may follow per accidence upon lawful actions, in some Cases they are unavoidable; for if I think I am in Conscience bound to do something as a duty, and another bee so weak as to bee offended at me for doing it, how can this offence bee avoided? must I neglect a duty, and wound mine own conscience, because another is offended at that which I do? If he bee so unreasonable as not to let me have the liberty to keep a good Conscience; in following the dictates thereof for myself; must I bee so foolish as to give up the use of my liberty to his weakness? In matters of indifferency where I may choose to do, or not to do; and where nothing else comes in competition, but the mere pleasing of myself; with the danger of displeasing another; there I am bound not to pleas myself, but another to his edification: nay although it may bee to my great bodily disadvantage, I must bear it, rather then my brother should have any spiritual disadvantage by me; for there is no proportion between a bodily and spiritual inconveniency; but in Case the inconveniency which I do incur, is not at all bodily, but spiritual; no law of charity can oblige me to undergo it; for no man can bee pleasured or edified by my spiritual disadvantage, this is to show why none ought to bee offended at me for doing that which I think is my duty. And why if any bee offended, I nevertheless must own that which I have don and let them know, that the offence is not given, but unjustly taken. But your 4th Scruple runs upon another strain of offences, and tends to another scope, which is to pled for the Non-subscribes under the Notion of weak Brethren, whom wee are bid not to offend. Their weakness is to think that unlawful( which perhaps is lawful) because it may seem contrary to a rule of the word. As in this Case of the engagement; the rule of Oaths and promises seems to bee violated; which a man is bound to keep though to his hurt.  
For mine own part, I do hearty wish and pray to God that the spirit of Christian compassion may bee amongst us; and that the Non-subscribers may not onely bee look't upon by the imposers and subscribers, as weak brethren and those that ought to bee dealt tenderly withall; but that also they may behave themselves so that all may have cause, and chiefly the imposers of the engagement, to think that it is rather through weakness and tenderness of Conscience indeed, then through some other inclination that they refuse to subscribe. For I must tell you ingenuously that it is as hard a task as ever I have meddled withall, to make some of the imposers of the engagement believe, that it is more out of tenderness of Conscience, then out of a design that most men contradict the Subscription of the engagement: I truly believe it, to bee that scruple which you allege in most of the Ministers, if not in all that are godly; but the violence and across actings of some doth bring an invincible prejudice against all.  
As for these that are in places of power to provide for common safety, they say to this: that it is a matter of absolute necessity to press the settlement of some fundamental relation in the Common-wealth between the members thereof; and therefore they cannot in Conscience neglect their trust, but must indispensably endeavour the preservation of the public by this means; and if their Conscience bee as strongly engaged one way, as the other's are another way; no course is in view, but a friendly treaty to prevent the inconveniency of mutual offences, and further breaches; that mistakes may bee removed and differences reconciled: which I shall not cease to pray for to God and solicit towards men.  
The last Scruple, or rather asspersion of yours in answer to what I had said in my last, I shall not contradict; for I willingly confess, that in doubtful matters and difficult cases the spirits of Prophets should bee subject unto the Prophets: only admit of the limitation which I did add in my former expression; that no Church, far less a foreign Church, ought to bee made a judge of Civil Sanctions in a state. But that the spirits of Prophets ought to bee Subject to the Prophets, is one of the great fundamentals which I mainly press as a means to rectify our endless disputes: nor is any man more avers from enthusiasticall fancies then I am; yet I am not lead by any implicit faith or resignation of my judgement to other men sopinions: but I seek light from them; and when I find that upon Conference I can neither bring them to my sens, nor they me by Conviction of my Judgement to theirs, I think it my duty to be silent, and to suspect mine own opinion as that which may bee wrong, although I cannot see it to bee so.  
You may perceive by the largeness of my discourse upon the heads of these Scruples that my spirit is not straitned in Love towards the Brethren that desire some help; which as I said at first, God only can give, who is the Father of lights and of all good gifts; and if wee lay one another's Cases to heart with tenderness and meekness, and call upon him one for another, wee may hope that he will bless our gifts for mutual advantage. The secrecy and cautiousnes which is requisite in this business you may assure yourself of, with all Confidence; as also of all other duties and offices of love, which in the fear of God may bee expected from  
Your affectionate Brother in Christ 
 JOHN DVRIE. 
 St James 
 April 4. 1650.  
Postscript.  
yours came to my hand on the 28. March, the next day I begun to answer it, but I was obliged to go out of the town the same day, towards night, which interrupted my proceeding for a few daies, and occasioned a delay, which I would not have you to impute to any unwillingness to serve you; but the chief intent of this Postscript, is now not to excuse this slow return; but to make some addition to that, which may bee your satisfaction concerning the first scruple. For since I wrote that which here is said, concerning the Question you make; what I mean by that known duty which I often urge; I have light upon a place in the reproposals, to which you( I make no doubt) allude. It is in pag. 10. 11. and there my meaning is, to call that a clear and known duty, which in the second Section of the Humble Proposals is confessed, to bee from the light of nature, from the judgement of the Learned, from the practise of Christians in former ages, from their own Principles, and from their former engagements consonant to the will of God; viz. that they should live quietly and peaceably in their places and callings, submitting to such things as are imposed upon, or required of them, by the powers which are in actual possession, being in themselves lawful and necessary, to the preservation of our selvs and others: which may bee don( say they) without disputing the right and title of those that are in place. To do this,( which the humble proposals themselves thus acknowledge upon so many grounds, to bee a duty of Subjects towards Superiors, who have none other clear title, but actual possession) I do there call the clear and known duty, which the Engagement doth require, which therefore ought not to bee scrupled at, by those who are willing to perform this duty. For if it bee freely acknowledged upon so many clear grounds, that the powers who are in actual possession without enquiring into their title, should bee obeyed in things just, and necessary for common preservation; then there is no cause for any man to scruple at the Engagement; for the Engagement by the clear sens of the words, and the whole tenor of the Act, by which it is imposed, doth require nothing more then in this acknowledgement is expressed to bee a duty, which I in my Reproposals call clear, because the proposals allege so many grounds to evidence it; and I call it known, because they themselves so fully confess it Besides the former delay, there hath been another step in the slow transcription of these former sheets: that I might have a copy of them by me; for my man that copied them out, hath not the hand of a ready writer; yet I hope no time is lost, and I assure you, if any bee, it is not willingly.  
Your brother and servant 
 in the Gospel, 
 JOHN DURIE. 
 St James's this 9th 
 April 1650.   

The third Letter.  
Reverend and worthy Sir!  
I Must still return you many thanks, and acknowledge myself much obliged to you, that you are ready to bestow such unwearied pains, in performing an office of love to your weak brethren: you needed not to have spoken any thing touching the long stay of your Letter; for I had reason to wonder rather it came so soon, considering you had taken such pains in it; mine had been returnned sooner to you, but that I desired some friends might first have a sight of yours, that I might know their thoughts about it: for myself I may truly say, that I have cause to bless God for your labours, and from that light which I have received from them; some of my good friends are now satisfied in the business; others, who are truly godly still stick fast in their former doubts, and cannot see their way clear before them. I find it to bee true which you mentioned, namely, that it is not in the power of man, but a privilege belonging to God alone, to bee able to satisfy the scruples of a tender conscience: It is he that sits( as it were) at the stern of every man's understanding, and can steer it which way he pleaseth; so as that argument which seems to bee very weighty to one man, to another seems to have little strength in it: that distinction which seems to one very fit for cleared of knotty scruples, doth seem to another to have little solidity in it: so that if wee will not violate the rule of love, wee must have the patience to permit others to bee of a differing judgement from us in doubtful things, and yet like them never the wors, when their liking stands as strongly to the best things as our own. Give me leave therefore to commend it to you, as a principal office of Christian charity, to do what lies in you to take off the thoughts of such as are in place( whom you have any interest in) from that uncharitable apprehension, that such who refuse the engagement, do it not out of weakness, but wilfulness: for such a perverse principle as this put on the Prelates in times past, to the violent persecuting of pious Non-conformists because( they having said much in defence of superstitious ceremonies) they took it as granted, that such as still stumbled at them must needs do it out of obstinacy, and peevishness, and not out of true tenderness; and when any shall have thoroughly digested this dangerous principle, they may easily bee carried forward to the exercise of much violence, against the dear servants of God, whom they ought to cherish as their own children. Give me leave briefly to tell you what it is, that some godly men stick at.  
First, It being taken as granted, that King and Lords, and all the Privileges of parliament must bee subordinate to the public safety, yet who must bee judges? what makes most for the public safety, but the mayor part of our representatives, who were chosen for that purpose, who when the house was full and free,( as before I  told you) declared it to bee most for the public safety, to agree with the King upon the best terms they could, and that there should bee still a continuance both of him, and the house of Lords.  
Secondly, It is objected, that none are thought now competent judges of those actions, which have been don by such who are in power, but themselves, who are the authors of them, which crosseth the usual rule,( vid. that no man is a competent judge of his own actions) and also their former practise; for heretofore, both King and parliament, in many of their Declarations, did appeal to the judgement of the people, to determine whether of their proceedings did most agree to the preservation of Religion, and the liberty of the Subject, and accordingly to side with them, or against them; and now the whole Kingdom, nobility, gentry, Divines, Lawyers, and men of all ranks and orders, must bee bound up to yield a blind obedience to a few men, that have gotten the Government into their hands, without their consent, and do exercise it in a far more arbitrary way, then ever the King himself did.  
Thirdly, It makes them much doubt, whether those in power will bee real for Religion or not, because they suffer such abominable blasphemies to break forth in divers parts of the Kingdom, and no condign punishment is exercised against the authors of them; there being a generation of men risen up in many places, who openly profess themselves to bee deified; and therefore that the most hideous cursing and swearing, beastly drunkenness, or foul uncleanness are things not evil in them, because they are the actions of God: of whom they might bee as easily informed, and take notice( if they pleased) as they are of such who refuse the Engagement.  
Fourthly, They still stick at Romans 13. as not to bee understood of usurped powers, on these grounds; First, if higher powers bee of God onely, by a common providence, though without a rule, this will make ill for the authority and credit of magistracy; for then Magistrates should bee no more of God, then plagues, famins, and other common calamities, all which come in a providential way.  
Secondly, the powers here spoken of, are such as must not bee resisted, but usurpers may bee resisted as Athaliah was; these must bee maintained by paying of tribute; usurpers not so.  
Thirdly, these are said to bee ordained of God; but lawful power onely is God's Ordinance, not usurped power. Lawful Magistrates are, not onely ordained by a secret providence,( as ungodly men are ordained to condemnation) but by his written word and sanction. The sons of Aaron had another manner of Ordination, then konrah and his company, though they took upon them to exercise the priestly office.  
Fourthly, The Magistrate here spoken of, is the Minister of God, Ergò called of God to that service, as Ministers are to their work; he is the Minister of God for the welfare of the people, usurpers not so; he is to take vengeance on evil doers, and execute wrath for God, Ergò, not by providence onely( as thieves, robbers, and foreign invaders) but by place and calling.  
Fifthly, by this reason, if Malignants, Levellers, Papists, or any others should get to bee the strongest party, wee must yield obedience to them, as to the powers that are of God.  
Sir, I dare not desire you to clear these scruples, lest I should put you to more pains: but if your leisure will permit to do it, I shall bee thankful, and leave you to take what leisure you pleas. I am sorry to hear that any good men should refuse so fair, and rational a way of accommodation, as you tendered to them; yet I dare not censure them, because I am ignorant of their grounds: but( I suppose) if you had made the like motion to Mr N. N. Mr N. N. or some other of their temper, it would have been lovingly entertained. Sir, I hope you shall not repent of your pains, if still you exercise more patience in seeking, how such a business may bee brought about: and I know you have often made use of that promise, wherein blessedness is pronounced to Peace-makers. Thus desiring our good God still to enlarge you with affections, and abilities fit for making up these great breaches, that are still amongst us; I resign you to his mercy.  
Yours most obliged in the 
 best bond of love. 
 this 29th. of April 
 1650.   

and full, that it was most for public safety to agree with the King upon the best terms they could, and that there should bee still a continuance both of him and of the house of Lords.  
Suppose this to bee so, what then? then( say they) it follow's that the present constitution of affairs( being contrary to that which the mayor part of the house then declared) is not for public safety; and if this constitution doth not tend to public safety, then it follow's that the engagement by which it is confirmed ought not to bee entred into; for no man should oblige himself to that which is contrary to public safety. This I conceive is the whole strength of the Scruple as it may lye in their conception.  
But I shall freely tell you that with me it hath no weight at all, as to engage my Conscience in the business; as to take me off from taking the Engagement, for many things are here presupposed which are to me uncertain; and though they bee granted to bee true, yet they reach not at all to put an obligation upon my Conscience to abstain from the engagement as now it is offered.  
They presuppose here that in a state of War aswell as in a peaceable constitution of affairs whatsoëver is determined and allowed by a mayor part is most for public safety which is to me a very doubtful assertion. Wee find that matters have been carried on all along in both Kingdoms rather by a Minor then by a mayor part of the Nation; and if this rule should be taken up universally; Whatsoëver the mayor part doth is best don; and most agreeable to Justice in all things; it will go ill with the people of God in the world; and the narrow way, with the few that walk in it, will not bee justified: this rule therefore is not in all Cases and at all times to bee admitted; but it must needs admit of some restriction, whereby in matters of extraordinary concernment, a party which is most considerable, though fewer, may dissent from a party which is less considerable, though more in number. Wee see then that this first presupposal whereupon the whole Scruple is grounded is not sound.  
Besides this presupposal, there is this also intimated in the Scruple, that what formerly was declared to bee most for public safety, must now also be judged to bee so; as if the several Emergencies in state affairs could not give cause to alter justly their opinions concerning the way of public safety.  
Again a third presupposal is implied in this Scruple viz. That the house is not now free and full as then it was; which how I can take upon me to assert I know not, seeing they who are only competent Judges of their own freedom, do vote themselves to bee free; and seeing it is an undoubted fundamental law of the Parlamentarie Constitution that forty Members regularly met are a full house to all intents and purposes, aswell as four-hundred: now it is known that the house was never less then forty: therefore it hath always been full: and a full house may repeal it's own acts upon Emergencies as it seeth cause.  
Fourthly, it is not only presupposed, but expressly asserted, that the house declared that is was most for public safety to agree with the King on the best terms they could, and that there should bee stil a continuance of Him and of the house of Lords; Truly I believe that times were, when Votes did pass in the house to this effect, though not in those terms; which is clear by several public Declarations importing no less; but I believe also that upon new Emergencies their sens of agreeing did alter, and that since the King was at Holdenbie, and the army took him into their custody, and that he stil refused to yield to their Propositions, their sens of public safety did much varie, from what you here express it was, as was manifest by the votes of Non-addresses; and it is certain, that this which is alleged was not the vote in terminis; for which the Members were separated from the house: that Vote was in terminis, this; That the Answers of the King to the Propositions of both Houses, were a ground for the house to proceed upon, for the settlement of the Peace of the Kingdom. This was the fatal dividing Vote, which in the sens of some, I believe, did tend to that, which you say the house declared; but in the sens of others, it might tend to settle the peace of the Kingdom without him. some thought it was best to agree with the King upon any terms whatsoëver, to carry on a design: but others thought it more safe, not to admit of the terms which he offered, for fear of that design.  
It appears by that which is fallen out, that although the party most numerous did vote in the first, yet the party most considerable voted in the last sens, and which of these two did vote most wisely and justly; if I should take upon me to determine, who am without doors, and not conscious to circumstances of State, nor entrusted with the management of public affairs, it would in mine own judgement bee a very great presumption, and contrary to the Rule, by which I walk in a conscionable submission to superior powers; for I make this my Rule, that my conscience is obliged to nothing, but to judge of mine own ways, how they may, within my calling bee made answerable to the will of God, by the Rules which he hath given me. Now I said, no Rule given by him to me in my calling, which doth oblige me to bee a definitive judge of these matters; so as to fasten them upon my conscience, that except I bee able to determine them, I may take no rest, nor intend the main duties of my profession. Nay, I find a contrary clear Rule. That I must not bee a busy body in other men's affairs; 
1 Pet. 4. 15. 1 Cor. 9. 19. Tit. 3. 1. judas 3. 8.  That being free from all, I must become a servant to all, in that which is for edification; I must bee subject to superior powers, and not speak evil of Dignities; and that I must not suffer my conscience to bee brought under the power of worldly and 
1 Cor. 6. 12. 1 Cor. 3. 21, 22.  outward concernments: for I am  told that all things are mine, therefore I must not bee brought under the power of any thing, but being bought with a price by the Lord, I must not bee( as to conscience) a servant of men; from which Rules 
1 Cor. 7. 23, 24.  I infer this, that, although I suppose all that is alleged, to bee so, as it is alleged; and all the presupposals to bee undoubted and certain, yet they must not reach, and come within me so far; as to become a scruple to my conscience; and to make no doubt, whether yea or no, I should behave myself as a Subject, towards those that are my superiors; obeying Magistrates readily in every good work, not speaking evil of them, nor brawling against them; but showing all gentleness and meekness, both to them, and to all men, Tit. 3. 1, 2. I leave then the judicature of public safety to those that are in public places: I pray to God for them; that they may bee enabled to judge aright, and to see their way before them, and whether they do right or wrong in particular matters; I leave the judgement thereof unto God, and to their conscience; and look onely to mine own walking in my private sphere, to bee without blame, and to hold forth the word of life, and let the changes bee, what ever they will or may bee, in the states of this world, they shall no more trouble me, if I remain myself, then the changes of the air, when the weather is sometimes fair, and sometimes foul: the storm that bloweth over my head shall not make me stand still in the high way, nor lye down in the puddle, not going forward till the journeys end; as I am afraid, many who are angry at the changes of the times, being of a sullen humour, are ready to do, because they cannot get their wills; but I believe not that any of your friends are such: yet I cannot say, that all godly men are free from the snare of such a distemper.  
The second scruple is this; that, although no man can bee a judge in his own cause, and that although heretofore, both King and Parliament did appeal to the judgement of the people, to determine whether of their proceedings did most agree, to the preservation of Religion and liberty, yet none are now thought competent judges of those actions, which have been don by such who are in power, but themselves; so that now all men are bound up, to yield a blind obedience to those who have gotten the Government into their hands; and exercise it in an arbitrary way.  
To this I say, suppose all this be so, what then? then( say your friends) the Engagement ought not to bee entered into, by which they will bee established in the use of this power: and this I take to bee the whole strength of this scruple also.  
But hereunto I say, that I dare not take upon me, to censure them, so as your friends do in this scruple; and although the accusations which are alleged, should bee made out, to bee such crimes as they would make them to bee; and that I should see no plea left for them, whereby they might justify themselves; yet the consequence which your friends make thereupon, would not follow as to my conscience: for suppose the matters alleged to bee as ill, and their proceedings as irrational as may bee, and that they abuse their power, as is alleged; yet I say, that it is not warrantable for me to refuse the Engagement: if it require in my judgement, a thing in itself good, and lawful to bee don for common safety; for the supposed faultineses of these men in their places;( where of private men are not judges over them) cannot warrant me to refuse the performance of a clear and known duty towards the public in my place, which they may require of me.  
But your friends will say perhaps to this: but if your entering into the Engagement will establish them in the power which they abuse, how can you do it with a good conscience? I answer, that whatever is a clear matter of duty, ought for conscience sake to bee intended for itself without scrupling the event: because the future accidental effects, and contingent events of human actions are wholly in God's hand; nor can I know whether my taking of the Engagement shall establish them in the power, which they have or no: and if it doth, whiles I do nothing but my duty, I must leave that to God. Your friends that argue thus; wee will not draw to bee true and faithful to the Common-wealth, as it is now established without a King and house of Lords, because, if wee do this, these men will bee confirmed in the places wherein they are, do not in this matter guid their resolution by a rule, but by a conjectural interest, and the forecast of some event, which they would, or would not have to fall out, which is not to follow, but to predetermine Providence, a thing in our thoughts no ways to bee allowed, and a thing which they condemn in others, and yet herein it's practised by themselves: for when they refuse thus to do a duty upon this account, because happily these men will thereby bee established; they seem to me to intend to oppose, and contradict Providence already determined; now whether Providence will establish these men, in the place whereof they are fully possessed, yea or no, is a thing that I am not to look after: I must leave that unto God, and intend nothing, but to follow in every present action a clear Rule; and if God will confirm them in their places, by my doing my duty, why should I take upon me, or settle in my thoughts to grudge at it, or to hinder that event? Shall I predetermine God's Counsel? Can I say to him they ought not to bee confirmed? or shall I by the neglect of a duty, endeavour to cast down those whom he hath set up? Is not this to follow them that seek for changes? wee may wish, and seek also for changes to the better; if by doing our duty, wee have cause to conjecture that such a thing may fall out; but to the end that a change of public affairs may fall out, to neglect a duty is altogether unwarrantable; or to study in hatred to some persons, to bring a change in the Government is that which is forbidden, as I suppose, in the Proverbs by Solomon; as for mine own part, I freely declare, that I did not seek for the abolishment of Regal Government; but since God hath brought it about in his own way; I am bound to dequiesce, and as I sought not to bring matters to this state by a change; so I shall not seek to bring matters from it again, by a new change; but I must by the rule of my place and calling, as a private man, draw to do my duty, in the settlement or unsettlement, which God doth give, what ever it is: so then you see, that if I must guid my conscience by a Rule, I must not measure the righteousness of my actions by the appearances of events, which I conjecture may follow thereupon, but by the precepts, which tell me what is my duty in my place at all times, in presenti, hic& nunc; nor must I look to other men's actions, by the constructions, which I, or others may make of them, but I must look unto mine own way; that is, to that which God require's of me, in my private station. This your friends seem not to do, when they argue thus: wee will not take the Engagement, because wee will not confirm, but rather disturb these men in their places: this to my understanding, is to make conscience depend upon a design, and not upon the observation of a rule, in reference to a present duty; now I dare not fasten any human design upon my conscience, nor make my conscience subject to any thing, but to a clear Rule of God's word: therefore, except the argument were proposed unto me thus: You must not take the Engagement, because the action required in it, is in itself unlawful to bee don, by you in your place; except( I say) it were thus offered unto me, I can see no just plea to pretend conscience in the business; if then nothing to my judgement bee required of me, which is unlawful for me to bee don, in my place and calling; I must bee so far from pretending conscience, for not engaging thereunto; that I dare not for conscience sake, but bee engaged hearty; by reason of the universal, and undeniable Rule, Rom. 13. 1. Let all souls bee subject to the higher powers; because the powers that are, are of God; and again, vers 5. You must needs bee subject for conscience sake. Thus then my conscience is not to bee subjected to the consequence, which your friends make; but unto this Rule of the word; although I should grant, that the premises, upon which they infer it to bee true: but if, when I look upon the Premises in themselves, and by the judgement of discretion, find them to bee such, as may bee mere mistakes, and misrepresentations of things, or at least great uncertainties, which I ought not to take upon me to determine, then I am abundautly cleared in the matter, that I ought not to bee scrupled at the things alleged, as they are; nor do I think, that your friends, if they understood themselves rightly, would suffer their conscience to bee scrupled at such considerations as these are; for if the Question bee concerning the actions of these men that now govern, whether any can or may judge of them definitively, besides themselves; the answer must bee, as I conceive, that if they are the higher powers, from whom none can appeal; then it followeth undeniably, that none can, or may judge of their proceedings but themselves. The supreme government; that is, the Law-making power( which no man looking upon them, can deny them to bee possessed off) cannot bee accountable unto any, but unto God: and if you will make them judges of their own proceedings, you must name some to bee over them, able to call them to an account: but if none such can bee found; then wee must understand this Rule, that no man is a competent judge of his own actions, cum grano salis: viz. of a single man, viz. that none is to bee made the sole, and supreme judge of his own cause, and actions, but that he ought to bee accountable thereof unto others, because no single man on earth, is either by the Law of nature, or by God's appointment made onely for himself, or to bee without doing service unto others; and therefore by other's, to whom he is appointed to do service, he may bee judged, and is bound to give them an account of his stewardship; but in case a state, or whole nation by it's representatives, which by itself is free, and depend's upon none but God, doth contract itself into a body, to whom it doth entrust it's whole power; this body can bee accountable unto none, but unto God; nevertheless, each member of the body is accountable unto the whole; onely the whole, as long as it hath the power, cannot bee called to an account of their proceedings by any; else there would bee a processus in infinitum, or this absurdity would follow, that the supreme power would bee subject to it's inferior, that is no supreme, which is, contradictio in adjecto; it follow's then, that where a Nation doth entrust the supremacy of their power, so to any society of men, that they can do with it what they think good, there none can bee judges of their actions definitively but themselves; else the judges and governors, which are actually supreme, would have Superiors over them, which is absurd. Potentially the supremacy is in the collective body of a Nation; but actually it can bee no where, but in the representatives of the whole; and so long as the trust of the whole is in their hands, so long they must bee allowed to bee sole judges of their proceedings.  
As for that which is said, that both King and Parliament did appeal to the people's judgement, to determine, whether of their proceedings did agree most with the preservation of Religion, and Libertle of the Subject; I grant they did so; but their meaning was not by so doing, to set up every private man above themselves, as a definitive judge of the whole matter; but onely to justify their proceedings to the judgement of discretion, in every man, that he might for his own good, bee inclined to favour the cause, which should seem in his eyes most just; from this appeal, of both King and Parliament to the people, may bee gathered by the way; First, that all Superiors are some way accountable to the body of the Nation, of their administrations, and of the Reasons of their proceedings. Secondly, that all particular men may take notice, by the judgement of discretion, of the proceedings of their Superiors, to sway their resolutions to a rational concurrence, or non-concurrence in things required of them in their places. Thirdly, that no Superiors ought to think themselves so absolute, as not to bee bound, to declare the grounds of their actions, that they may bee understandingly weigned by their inferiors, for whose sake they manage public affairs. From these grounds then, let me offer to your discretion, that which I think rational, and tending to Peace, that seeing the Trustees of the Nation have disagreed amongst themselves, and those that had the supremacy of power in their hand, have determined matters, according to the ability which God gave them; it is lawful for me in my place, to look upon matters so far, as I discern them, to make the best thereof; but it is not lawful, nor conscionable, for me to judge definitively of their proceedings, to make the worst thereof.  
You see then, that I cannot in conscience charge these men, that have the Government in their hand, with that which your friends judge them guilty of. viz. First, that all men are made to yield a blind obedience unto them; I cannot say so; for I see that they offer to all men, an account of their proceedings, and that they have carried on their resolutions rationally, according to emergencies, and are not unwilling to show the reasons of their proceedings, to such as inquire after the same. Secondly, that they have the Government without the people's consent: I cannot say so; for I believe, that all that are in place, were chosen to their places by the free consent of the people. Thirdly, that they exercise their power more arbitrarily then the King did, in some sens I cannot say so, and yet in another sens I may say so. I may not say so in the sens that your friends mean it, who I suppose, make all arbitrary power as in the King, so in them equally unlawful. I may not say so; because I am not a judge, either of him, or of them in their particular actings, and yet again, I may say, that I conceive it lawful in them to exercise an arbitrary power, which was not lawful in the King to do, because their trust from the body of the Nation is above that, which was given to the King; and the whole power which he had, did primarily belong unto them, as they were representatives of the Nation, who upon emergencie, have seen cause to resume it; and of this they have given an account to the body collective; so then, although it is their right, as supreme in the body, to do things arbitrarily; yet I cannot say, that they intend to rule without Law, as it was imagined the King intended, by opposing the Law-making power of the Representatives, or that they intend to oblige all men, to yield a blind obedience; for where Laws are made, and accounts given of public proceedings; there men cannot bee justly said to bee obliged, to yield a blind obedience: and thus you see, wherefore I am not staggered, at the second scruple of your friends.  
The third matter here proposed, is not a scruple, but a complaint, with a suspicious conjecture of their intentions concerning Religion; that they seem not to bee willing to advance it, because they punish not blasphemers, and sinners against the light of nature, so much as those that take not the Engagement; to this I shall say; that it is my duty to mourn, for the abominations committed within Jerusalem; to pray to God for a remedy against them, to warn, and admonish those that are in place of them; to encourage them to do their duty towards the public, and towards myself, by doing my duty in all things good and lawful towards them; and when I have don this, I must leave the event unto God; but if I will take up jealousies against them, because every thing which I would have don, in public by them, is not don, as I would have it; and upon my private jealousies, I licentiate myself, not to do my duty in my place towards them, and make others rebellious against them; and in my heart depose them from their places; then I weaken their hands, and hinder them, what in me lieth from doing even that, which I complain is not don by them; and so make myself accessary to the guilt of that evil, which I lay unto their charge; and so, while's I accuse them, of the neglect of their duty, to the public, I neglect mine own duty, both to myself, and to them, and to the public, and abstract them also from doing theirs.  
The last matter here offered is the consideration of Rom. 13. where your friends say, that it is not to bee understood of usurped powers, and you give me their grounds, why they think so?  
As for mine own part, I cannot call to mind, that any where I have said, nor do I remember, that ever I was of opinion to say: that the place is to bee understood of usurped powers; but I conceive, it is to bee understood indefinitely, of the powers which are in place, what ever they are, whether usurped or not; if they bee the higher powers; for the words which the Apostle doth use, signify nothing else; but that which is proper to a supreme Magistrate, implying nothing, either of usurpation, or lawful election to the place; but onely of a being in it, of the ground being in it of the ground of that being, as it is from God, of the Acts proper to the being in the place, and of the ends of those acts; and the duties of Subjects to bee performed towards them in reference to all this. I say not then that the Apostle doth intend to persuade us, to obey usurped powers; but he doth declare, what wee ought to do, as Christians in submission to the powers that are over us; that is, to those that bear Rule: for the words used by the Apostle are indefinite {αβγδ} vers 1. and {αβγδ}. vers 3. these denominations determine nothing concerning the matter of usurpation, or a lawful calling to their places; they imply onely three things. Viz. First, the Notion of power, or force in {αβγδ}. Secondly the notion of eminency, or superiority possessed, in {αβγδ}. Thirdly, the notion of acting above others, or before others, in {αβγδ}. So then, the object of our submission is indefinitely the might, which is possessed of the superiority, which is above us: and doth act in a way of Government over us. Of these mights, or mighty ones, the Apostle saith indefinitely, that none of them have their place of superiority, or their might but of God; and whatever superiority or might is in being, is ordained of God so to bee, over those that are in subjection to it; and therefore none ought to resist the superior powers, that are over them for Government, because the Governors, or Magistrates are not a terror to good works, but to the evil; and this I take to bee the clear sens of vers 1, 2, 3. If then the Apostle speake's of Magistrates, or magistracy indefinitely, not reflecting upon the particular way, how they enter upon their places; but onely upon the actual possession thereof: and in that respect will have us to look upon them, as such whom God appoint's to bee obeyed in things that are good; I know not why wee should trouble our selvs further, then the holy Ghost doth give us cause, by limiting and defining the title and right of the powers, into lawful and unlawful, with reference to their entrance therein, according to human Laws and customs; whereof in all this Scripture there is no intimation at all; nor was it then, nor is it now possible, for private Christians( to whom the Apostle writes) to judge of the lawfulness of the titles, of those that are in place, to the power which they have; but he refer's them onely to that which was apparent, and whereof none could pretend ignorance, viz. to the powers which were actually over them, to rule them; these then as such, are to bee respected as the object of our submission; and this is clearly Calvin's mind, lib. 4. Instit. cap. 20. parag. 24. till the end; where he makes the office of magistracy to bee the thing to bee respected by all, although men come to the possession of it by means, and ways never so unjust, and do nothing less, then what becomes their places; for the unjust acquisition of a place, although it is a sin in him, who comes unjustly by it; yet it derogate's nothing from that which is due to the place, that is, the office according to God's appointment; for the office is his ordinance, and he will have all souls to bee subject to it, in good things: else wee set up anarchy.  
Now if your friends will without prejudice look upon these things; they will perceive, that higher powers and rulers are to bee look't upon onely, as men in the office of Magistrates, and as such, to bee obeyed: and this being granted, it will follow, whatever their personal faults may bee, that yet, so long as they are in the office of magistracy, they are to bee submitted unto in all good things: whether then they are usurpers or no, that is not material to my conscience; this Apostolical Rule binde's me to respect the ordinance of God, which is the Ruler in his Office; to him, as such, I owe submission, nor am I to judge of any thing further. By all which you may see, how I shall answer your friend's objections, which tend to show, that the higher powers in Rom. 13. cannot bee meant of usurped powers; that is, of men come to the place of Government, by ways of usurpation; I shall say to this, that the Apostle doth not express any thing at all of this, and therefore wee may not assert, that he meant any such thing; nor doth he express any thing to exclude usurpers, from having the title of higher powers; but his words, to my understanding, are indefinitely appliable to all, that are in the Office of supreme power; whether they bee usurpers, or no: therefore it is not that which is to bee look't upon; but if they bee high and Ruling powers, they are to bee regarded, as the Apostle doth enjoin, and for the reasons he doth allege.  
As for the Arguments brought in to show that usurpers of the higher power cannot bee included in the denomination, which the Apostle give's to Magistrates here, I conceive them far short of which they intend to prove.  
To the first I shall say, that God's providence can have no Rule but his will; and it is no incongruity, to say, that God hath but one rule of ordering all things; which is the Rule of Righteousness. Whether then he appoint's plagues and famines; or blessings, and plentiful seasons; and whether he give's good and bad Magistrates; usurpers, or lawfully called ones; all is don by the same rule of common providence, which is God's just and holy will. Nor is this at all ill for the authority and credit of magistracy to bee thus appointed: for the highest authority is the supremacy of God's will; whose wisdom saith, by me Kings reign, and Princes decree Justice, Prov. 8. 15. and the most high ruleth in the Kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men, Dan. 4. 17. I shall confess, that as to men by the Principles of natural society, God hath settled Rules for Government, and for men to bee placed in Government; and so the authority and credit of magistracy is built upon another basis, as to us, then, that which doth bring Calamities and plagues upon us, which come immediately from common providence, but that this man comes to the Government, either comformably, or not comformably, to those human Rules of election, is immediately from God; and no disparagement at all to the office, and the respect due unto it, because he hath given express Rules, both in the word, and in the nature of man, by which it is to bee upheld amongst men; and herein the authority of magistracy is differenced from plagues and calamities, and not in the reference, which it hath to common Providence; for by commons Providence all things have but one Rule, God's righteous will in judgement and loving kindness.  
To the second, which saith, that the powers here spoken of, must not bee resisted, but( say your friends) usurpers may bee resisted, as Athalia was, these must bee maintained by paying of tribute, usurpers not so. I say, that it is not lawful for any private man, to whom the Apostle writes to resist the higher powers over him, whether the persons bee usurpers or no; nor is he to make himself a judge of usurpation; but he is to bee subject to the powers, that are in place and rule: As for Athalia, shee was not resisted by any private, but by public authority; for Jehoiada the high Priest, and the Sanhedrim was a public authority; and by the Law of Nature, being the King's Tutor and Protector, he was authorized to depose and execute the usurper; as for the assertion, that lawful Magistrates must bee maintained by paying tribute, but usurpers not so; I say, that the duty of paying tribute is enjoined to Subjects towards magistrates quâ Magistrates; and not quâ lawful Magistrates; and consequently, it is not lawful for any to refuse tribute upon this ground, because he doth judge him to bee an usurper, who doth demand it; if he doth find him, in the place and office of a Magistrate, and if no law of nature, or Nations, or of God is contrary to what is demanded; he is bound to pay tribute, as to a Magistrate indefinitely, without this, or that respect to his personal qualities.  
The third objection saith; that lawful power is onely God's ordinance, and not usurped. This is to beg the Question: for God's Providence doth order the acts of usurpation( in themselves as to men unlawful) to a good end; and the magistracy still remains his ordinance, although seated in an usurper; and the highest power of might, which none can have, but by his giving of it, is his ordinance, although an usurper hath the management 
Joh. 19. 10, 11.  of it: Christ tells Pilate, when he spoken of his power or might, to save or condemn him, that he could do nothing in that kind, except it were given him from above; God for judgement, give's and appoint's power to bee in the hands of Tyrants: they manage it unjustly, and in due time are punished for it; yet that supremacy of power, in their hand, doth not cease to bee an ordinance of God. It is true, that the sons of Aaron had another manner of ordination, then konrah and his company; for konrah and his company were never permitted to have the Priesthood; but if God had not punished them, but permitted them upon the plea, which they used to have managed the Priesthood, aswell as the service of the Tabernacle, and that they had been in a peaceable possession of the office, what respect would then have been due unto them is a doubt unto me, which I am not able, I confess suddenly to determine; for I find that Christ in his daies, did respect the authority of the High-Priest; although he was but annual; and came into his place by another way, then God at first appointed Aaron and his sons to that office; bribery, faction and politic practices had brought the office of the High-Priest, to bee annual and changeable, in respect of the men that had it, who perhaps, in those daies could not bee excused from usurpation upon one another; and yet the office was to bee respected in their hand, and look't upon as God's Ordinance; the personal faults of men make not voided the appointment of God.  
To the fourth I say, that all men, whom God doth any way employ, are in some sens his Ministers; the original word is {αβγδ}, which is a servant; and whoëver hath the place of an officer under God, is rightly called his servant; and none can have it; but by some way of calling from God himself, either ordinary, or extraordinary: it follow's not therefore, that usurpers may not bee called God's servants; Nebuchadnezar an usurper, is called 
Jer. 25. 9.  God's servant by the Prophet; he that doth service, and is employed by a master to do it, is a servant; all Tyrants in the world are employed for judgement, and all usurpers of power are under a Master, that is, higher then the highest, who makes use of them for the welfare of his people; for although wee count not punishments our welfare, yet certainly in God's hand they are for the good of his people, and they execute the wrath which God hath appointed against evil doers; and this wrath they execute by virtue of their office. For God appoint's them to the office, that they should take vengeance of evil doers, as Jehu was appointed against the house of Ahab, in an extraordinary course.  
The last Argument alleged to prove, that no usurpers can bee meant by higher powers in Rom. 13. is taken from a supposed inconvenient consequence, which is, that if Levellers, Papists, or Malignants should get the power, and become the supreme Rulers, wee should bee obliged to obey them as the powers that are of God; whereunto I can say no more but this; that it would indeed bee a sad case, if God should dispose of the supremacy of power into such hands; but if he should for a judgement over this state bee pleased so to do, I know none other rule for private men to behave themselves by, but this which the Apostle doth prescribe; for if the Turk were my supreme Magistrate, and my lot did fall to bee under his civil Government, I would think myself bound, in things good and lawful, to submit unto him; the Reformed Churches in France are under a Papist Magistrate: yet they refuse not to submit in things good and lawful; If God give the Kingdom to the basest of men, and set me under him, I must not say, because he is base, that therefore his power is not of God.  
Thus I have after a long delay found some time, to offer your friends these thoughts for their satisfaction, the three first scruples I had answered above a month ago; the last which relates to Rom. 13. I intended to have answered by a full, and demonstrative Analysis of that whole context, which I had begun to make, but being severally interrupted with some other occasions, I did yesterday alter my resolution, and have added to that, which was don so long ago; what you find here, in answer to the fourth scruple: the Lord direct us in all truth, and teach us to discern the things that are most excellent; I rest, and desire you to remember me to your friends, as being  
Your affectionate and faithful 
 Servant in Christ. 
 JOHN DVRIE. 
 St James's 
 17. Julie 1650.   

The fourth Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
I Received yours of the 17th of Julie, for which I must acknowledge myself obliged unto you, that you are pleased still to continue your labour of love, and care to give satisfaction to such, as desire it in a loving way. The end of my answer at this time is to let you know that your Letter and Books came safely to my hands, and to return you many thanks for both of them, which I have already communicated to some friends, and shall do to others. I will not seek to create you any more trouble, by raising up any new scruples, about those things you delivered in your letter, but onely briefly acquaint you with their success, with some that I acquainted with them: some think, that if what you hold forth about that place, Rom. 13. will hold firm, it will bee a sufficient ground of satisfaction, for yielding obedience to the present powers. Neither doth the engaging to do it much trouble them; if they should oblige themselves to do it onely in a passive, not in an active way: but they conciev, that by taking the engagement to bee faithful to the present government, they bind themselves, not onely to bee subject to them in all lawful things; but to oppose, and resist any other, to whom( as they in their conscience think) the right of Government doth truly belong, when ever it shall bee claimed.  
Secondly, Others that are truly godly, think, that what you speak about the rule of being guided by the mayor part( that it is not alway the best and safest way) holds true in rebus moralibus, but not in rebus politicis, else the foundation of all government will bee overthrown; if in such things as are to bee determined by Votes of divers persons, the mayor part may not carry it.  
Thirdly, They think, that what you say in answer to the second scruple about judging( namely, that all particular men may take notice by the judgement of discretion, of the proceedings of their superiors, to sway their resolutions to a rational concurrence, or non-concurrence, in things required of them in their places; these being your words makes much for them, for in the judgement of discretion, they conceive, that the setting up of themselves to bee the supreme, and sole higher powers of the Nation, and excluding others( to whom a right therein did properly belong, aswell as to themselves) without the consent of the Kingdom, is not agreeable to the right rule, and therefore they dare not concur with them in doing, or approving of it,( as they shall do, if they take the Engagement) other doubts might bee mentioned, but I will not bee tedious; I find that the Treatise of the Lancashier-Ministers about the Engagement, seems to bee of great weight and strength with many good men, if a clear answer could bee given, to what therein is most substantial, it would give great satisfaction. I do most freely and feelingly assent to what you say, and acknowledge that it is God's peculiar work, to make the wilderness of our spiritual estate a pool of waters, and to turn the dry land into watery springs: to him therefore I desire to look, humbly imploring him,( who is the Father of lights) so to inform our judgments, that wee may bee able to see, and discern the things that differ, and to compose our affections, that wee may both entertain every truth in love, and embrace one another in love, not giving way to any groundless prejudice, which may bee an hindrance of either of these. And go on still( good sir!) to bee the unchangeable, constant, and single-hearted peace-maker, not suffering yourself to bee discouraged by any misapprehensions, that some( though good men) may have of you, for he that seeth the heart, and trieth the reins, will in due time recompe●s what ever is don in truth of heart, for preserving of the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. Inparticular, bee not weary( as occasion serv's) in seeking to allaie the heat of indignation, that is stirred up in some in high place, against those that dare not venture upon the Engagement,( though forbearing upon grounds truly conscientious.) Our good God give unto all that fear him, that they may once come, to bee of one heart, and one way, and all agree in that way, which is most agreeable to his will and word.  
Your most affectionate, and 
 most obliged Brother, and 
 Servant in love. 
 this 16th of August 
 1650.   

The Answer to the fourth Letter.  
Reverend Sir!  
yours of the sixteenth of August was delivered unto me the three and twentieth thereof; after which day, I had occasion to go into the country, which took me off from these thoughts, almost ever since; but now I am returned unto them, to let you know, that the expressions of love in your Letter, and the encouragements which you give me, to proceed in the way wherein I am, are no small refreshments unto my spirit, and a support against the obloquys and reproaches, which I meet withal in the mouths of others: whose bissaed affections will not suffer them to look upon me without prejudice: so that they cannot discern, in any way that simplicity, by which I endeavour; as to offer myself to all men, so to approve my conscience before God. But some comfort I have, that this is no new thing unto me; for all along, my lot hath been more or less, to bee misunderstood by all, and thus to bee look't upon a squint by one party or another: because, although I could not but approve always in some things, one party more then another, and consequently, for the main I did own them, as those amongst whom I was to bee reckoned; yet I never did own them as a party, or in their partiships: but set my mind to cure them of the distempers, which proceed from the spirit of envy and jealousy, which dwel's in our flesh. Therefore so far as I understood my freedom in the spirit, I never was, nor ever shall bee( I hope) restrained from making use of all parties, and owning them in that which is good and consonant to the truth of christianity.  
I thank you for the account you are pleased to give me of the success, which the papers I sent you have had with some; one of the chief aims which I have in this business( next unto the discovery of Truth, to unite our spirits therein, and give satisfaction to those who are scrupled) is to engage the affections of godly men, upon the thoughts of mutual forbearance, and compliance by showing, that as there is no cause of fundamental division, between those that differ in judgement, about the present civil transactions; so there ought not to bee any such distance of affections, as to produce any unwillingness of being reconciled to each other; or of being reunited in the prosecution of their main design, which is a Gospel-Reformation of this Nation: to oblige therefore holy men to entertain the thoughts, which may led them to this aim, is one of the causes, which makes me so willing to bee larger upon this subject, then otherwise I would bee; for what is it to me, whether I stand under the government of one man, or of many; if I can either way fulfil my race with joy, and serve my Generation in the advancement of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus? whatever Government then God doth set over me, I look upon it, and upon my duty in it, with a reference, and subordination unto this aim; nor is it at all lawful for me, by any human Engagement whatsoëver, to abridge myself of this liberty, or to forestall myself in this resolution: so that I should bee obliged to scruple the performance of any Christian duties for public edification, more in a Common-wealth, then in a monarchy, or 'vice versâ: or that I may not( when God so casts the balance of human affairs) determine it to bee my right, to live aswell under the one Government, as under the other, walking in Peace and Truth towards all men inoffensively. In effect by the scanning of matters relating to this subject, I find that I am fallen upon a branch of the study of Peace, which heretofore, in the pursuit thereof I never did reflect upon so directly: for in former times my direct aim was to mind onely the Rules of religious Peace and unity amongst the professors of the Gospel, in reference to christianity; but now I have been carried on to mind also the Rules, by which a Christian is obliged to behave himself peaceably, in civil and outward relations; which is, and will bee a necessary point of knowledge, as wee are in the flesh, and as long as Babylon is not fallen, and the New Jerusalem, the mother of us all, is not come down from above. I have therefore cause to thank God, that as I have not been lead forth by any worldly end, in meddling with this Subject; So I have learned thereby, somewhat more of the ways of Peace, then ever I knew before. And that I may benefit myself by the occasion which you offer unto me in your last; although you oblige me not to tell you my sens, of that which your friends conceive of my last answers to their doubts, yet I shall briefly take into consideration, the thoughts which you have expressed of theirs, concerning some passages of my discourse.  
The first is concerning active obedience, to bee yielded unto the present powers, which upon the ground of Rom. 13. I think may clearly bee made out; but they conceive( as you say) that by taking the Engagement to bee faithful to the present Government, they bind themselves not onely to bee subject unto them in all lawful things; but to oppose, and resist any other, to whom( as they in their conscience think) the right of Government doth truly belong; when ever it shall bee obtained.  
I conceive, that the sens of the Engagement cannot rationally otherwise bee understood; then as the authors thereof in the Act, by which it is imposed upon all, do explain their meaning; and constionably it may, and ought to bee understood none otherwise, then as it containeth a clear duty prescribed in the word of God: nor can any man, as a Christian, intend to bee obliged otherwise unto it, then as it is in itself, and so far as it is to him a duty; nor ought any man( that will not injure his Superiors in his thoughts) that it is imposed by them in any other sens, then as it is such a duty; if godly men therefore should mind in simplicity themselves, and their own duties, what need they set stumbling blocks in their own way, by conjectural interpretations of things; which they conceive contrary to duty in others? Is not this a subtle corruption of nature to bee so inclined; and a weakness of spirit to do so? and if wee represent things so to our selvs, that wee become thereby disaffected to our own duty, because wee are willing to conceive that something undutiful in others, may follow thereupon; do wee not deceive our selvs with the possibility of another's failing, in time to come, to make it a pretence to cover our own present failing? for if it bee our present duty, to become faithful to the powers that are over us, by doing things good and lawful under them; to what purpose is it to forestall our thoughts with a thing, which wee cannot say is; or which wee know not, whether it ever shall bee; viz. whether our Superiors will oppose any, to whom the right of Government doth truly belong? They that are in the full possession of power, are under God, at this time, our onely Superiors and Governors: nor is it lawful for me at present to have any relation, and therefore I ought not to have any respect unto others; for it is clearly my duty, in my sphere, to observe with a single heart the relation, under which by God's appointment I stand at present; nor am I to meddle with any thing else, as a matter of conscience, but with the observation of the Rule, Let all souls bee subject to the superior powers, and the powers that are, are ordained of God, Rom. 13. If then I take upon me, to make it a matter of conscience to think, that the right of government in chief, doth truly belong to others, then to these that are in place; do not I depose them in my heart, and make myself the judge of their supremacy? and if I suppose that they do oppose, or will oppose those, to whom I have adjudged the supreme Right; do not I renounce the quality of a Subject, and of a private man, by taking upon me, to determine the highest controversy in our human affairs, which is, to whom the Right of Government in this state doth belong; and how I should bee able, to warrant in myself( who am in no place) and to my conscience before God, this usurpation of Judicature over my Superiors,( who are undeniably in the full possession of all places of Judicature) while's I accuse them of another kind of usurpation, I am not able to imagine: for there is no Rule, either of God or man, that makes them subject to my tribunal. I would therefore entreat your friends in the fear of God, to examine the ground, and consider constionably by what Rule, they dare take upon them to engage their conscience thus, to think, that the right of Government doth truly belong to any other, then to the present parliament, which is possessed therewith. This presupposal of theirs, determining the right to another, not onely beg's the Question in debate; but contein's a high charge against all the Parlamentarie proceedings hitherto, prosecuted against the King's attempts, to rule without Law; It bewraie's therefore not onely a great deal of presumption, but much unadvisedness of Conscience, to cast themselves thereby into a snare of disobedienee; and the State wherein they live, into all unsettlement and confusion. For private men, if they should bee made judges of public quarrels: and obliged in conscience, to yield no active obedience towards the maintenance of the settlement, which is in being under their Superior powers, except the ground of the quarrel bee referred to them to determine, it is not possible that there could bee any settlement in a State at all; therefore private men are not to answer for the grounds of the quarrels, which may bee between their own supreme powers, and others that pretend to the same dignity; but all that they are obliged unto, is, by lawful means in their places, to defend and maintain in peace, the settlement which is in being, and to act with their Rulers to that effect.  
The second is, touching the Rule of being guided by the mayor part; where it is granted, that in rebus moralibus my rule held true, but not in rebus Politicis; else( say they) the foundation of all Government will bee overthrown, if in things to bee determined by Votes of divers persons, the mayor part may not carry it.  
I said in matters of extraordinary concernment, a Minor part is not to bee bound by the Votes of a mayor part; hereunto your friends seem to agree so far, as matters are Moral, but not as they are Political; what they mean properly by Political, I do not well know; but I meant matters of Government, which relate unto the fundamental constitution of safety and liberty; which are always either materially, or formally complicated with Moral Duties, or elsimmediately depending upon the same; but in lesser matters, which relate not unto the grounds of liberty and safety, which perhaps your friends call Politica, I consent with them, that the mayor part should carry it; and that all rational men should for peace sake, yield in things not worth a great contest: as in matters of mere order, what is to bee don, or taken into consideration first, or last: in matters of circumstance, relating to forms of actions, to times and places, and to the manner of proceeding, which doth not alter the substance of things morally good: and in particular municipal constitutions, which have no influence upon the whole state of a Common-wealth; in all such things the mayor part should bind the Minor to a concurrence, lest all the grounds of society bee dissolved; but when the business relate's unto the main end, and chief grounds of public safety and freedom, then although the thing to bee settled may bee called Political, in respect of the State for which it is desired; yet it will always bee found in respect of the obligation, which thereby will bee brought upon the course of particular men's lives, a matter of morality.  
The third thing which you mention, is their sens of my Answer to the second scruple, concerning the judgement of discretion, how far, and to what end, private men may make use of it; here I find in them, either a mistake of the Notion, which I have of the judgement of discretion, or else a misapplication thereof, in respect of the limits, how far it is to bee extended, or of the end and use for which it is allowed. To clear their thoughts, I shall desire them to take notice, that, by the judgement of discretion, I mean a rational, free, and disengaged surveying of things, which offer themselves to our consideration, about matters whereof wee may lawfully make enquiry; with an eye of indifferency to make some discoveries, but may not make any absolute and final determination thereof; so as to oblige our Conscience to follow the result of our discoveries: for wee may lawfully inquire further then wee may define; and it may bee profitable and advantageous for us, as to the manner of doing our duties, to make discoveries of the ways of those, towards whom in those Duties wee do relate; and yet not necessary for us, as to the performance of the main of the duty on our part, to define any thing by those discoveries concerning them. For herein the judgement of discretion, and the definitive judgement of Conscience differ in my Notion; that the one is necessary in reference to our selvs, and is to bee absolute about matters, relating properly to our own sphere of activity, wherein there is a clear Rule for every man to determine, what is his duty: but the other is free and voluntary in reference to others, and is to bee always conditional, about matters relating properly to the sphere of other men's activity; wherein, although the general rule of duty may bee known, yet the particular circumstances of fact being unknown, no settled judgement can bee made of the lawfulness, or unlawfulness of their proceedings; and therefore no consequences may bee drawn from the discoveries made, concerning other men's actions, whereof wee cannot bee judges, to define matters of duty concerning our selvs: because nothing of duty, relating to our selvs in our places, can bee suspended upon the doubtful circumstances of other men's actings in their places.  
From all which you may perceive, what bounds I set to the judgement of discretion, viz.  
First, that it must rise from our rational faculty, and not from our Conscience, that is, the motive which should put us upon the exercising of this judgement, must not bee a tie of Conscience to draw a scruple; but a rational contemplation of that, which may bee advantageous to our understanding; by the discovery of those properties of things, which occur to us in our way, which will enable us to make good use thereof.  
Secondly, that the object of the judgement of Discretion must bee things without, and not things within; for things within, if they bee our own, wee are bound to judge these definitively; but if they bee the secrets of other men, wee must leave them to the judgement of him, that will reveal the hidden things of darkness: as for things without, which others do act; wee are to look upon them discreetly, and with a limitation, upon certain conditions; leaving the definitive sentence thereof to the judgement of the great day.  
Thirdly, that the judgement of discretion is onely to bee intended to the circumstantials of matters, to make a true discovery thereof; and not to the substantials, to pry beyond our line, into the secrets and main concernments of other men, as busy bodies in other men's matters.  
As for the end and use, for which the judgement of discretion is to bee allowed, I conceive thus.  
1. It is to bee exercised to enable us, to discern probably, what the nature and property of things are, which from without are incident to us in our way, as offered from others: that wee may difference that which is useful, from that which is useless; lest wee mistake the one for the other, in that application, which wee shall have occasion to make thereunto.  
2. That it is to bee exercised, to keep our spirit in the use of our liberty; so, as neither to fall under the bondage of an implicit credulity, to believe every thing that is  told us; nor to take too much upon us, as magisterial Judges, or controllers of men, or things not within our line; but discreetly to balance our thoughts, between a slavish belief, and a busy prying into, and censoriousness of other men's affairs.  
3. That the result of it must not bee to regulate the main of our course, thereby either in our own place, or towards others; but onely to help us in the manner of proceeding, to do things more completely, and satisfactory to our own reason, and the edification of others; it must not therefore give us the rule of that, which is, or is not to bee don in our places; but it may discover unto us, that which may tend to the been or meliùs esse, thereof in reference to others.  
These Notions I lay open to your friends, that they may perceive their mistake in the consequence, which they infer upon my words, whereby they confounded the judgement of discretion, with that which is definitive; and misapplie the former to the object of the later: for because I say, that particular men may by the judgement of discretion, take notice of the actions of their Superiors, to sway their resolutions to a rational concurrence, or non-concurrence in things required of them in their places; they conclude( as they conceive) by the judgement of discretion, that, what the present powers have don, in settling themselves in the supremacy, is not agreeable to the rule of righteousness: wherefore( say they) they dare not concur in doing, or approving of it, as they shall do, if they take the Engagement.  
To this conclusion, I say it follow's not upon my assertion; but that they mistake the nature, and the use of the judgement of discretion; and misapplie it to make up an absolute definition of a thing, which is not within the line of their Judicature; for they determine upon the whole matter, that the superiority of their Rulers is unjust; whereas discretion and conscience, both should teach them not to determine any thing of so high a nature; onely they might modestly take leave to make a rational search into the circumstances, and a discovery of probabilities alleged in utramque partem, pro& contrà; Nor should that discovery, how probable soëver it may seem on either side, become a ground to bottom the main of their duty upon; but it should onely serve to sway their resolutions, to a rational concurrence, or non-concurrence, in things required of them in their places. By things required of them in their places, I mean particular matters, which are to bee don in order to their main and known duty, which is to bee subject to superior powers, in all good things, and by a rational concurrence, or non-concurrence therein, I mean an intelligent discerning of our way, in respect of the manner, how to act, or not to act with others therein, for the public good, so as may bee most advantageous, and acceptable to these, towards whom, and with whom the action is to bee intended; therefore when they reflect upon the present powers, in reference to their supremacy; so as to say, that in their judgement of discretion, they find, that what the powers have don for their settlement, is not agreeable to righteousness; they judge not discreetly, but rashly; because they indiscreetly apply their thoughts to an object, which is beyond the line, and against the use of the judgement of discretion; and furthermore, upon this their indiscreet judgement of that, whereof they they are not made judges; they infer as indiscreet a conclusion; for they say, therefore they dare non-concur in approving of the proceedings, by which their Superiors are come to bee settled in the supremacy: as they think they shall do, if they take the Engagement: here they having misapplied their judgement to a wrong object, they act not discreetly, but definitively about it: for they say, they dare not concur in approving of what their Superiors have don; but who doth require this approbation at the hand of their Conscience? For that onely should teach them what to dare, or not to dare; and it would bee well, if such as dare not concur in approving, should also not dare to concur, in disapproving what they have don: but when they have defined the matter to bee unrighteous, contrary to the law of discretion; and then say, that therefore they dare not concur to approve; they declare sufficiently that they dare concur to the contrary, viz. to disapprove, which is to make themselves the supreme Judges of supremacy; but neither the one, nor the other is to bee required at their hands, or imposed upon their Conscience; for their duty is discreetly to leave that unto God, and to time to manifest, and in the mean time to do sincerely their duty. But now, because they are out of the way of duty in all this, and prepossessed with an indiscreet judgement; therefore they also misinterpret the taking of the Engagement, as if it should oblige their consciences to make a definition of things past, by way of approbation; whereas, by the very Act by which it is enjoined, it is evident, that the purpose of taking it, is onely to look from the present state of affairs, forward, and not backward,. to secure the public Peace and safety in time to come, by the present settlement, and not to oblige any to trouble himself with things past: therefore herein also is no right of the judgement, either of discretion or of definition, for the conscionable and definitive judgement should have taught them, to look upon the sens of the Engagement, onely as it is a clear duty, so far as it is expressed in the words, declaring manifestly the purpose thereof, and not otherwise; but they having engaged their thoughts by prejudice, in another way of Judicature, have not at all regarded this Rule, but made a definition quiter contrary thereunto, to take themselves off from due respect and obedience to their Superiors, upon a pretence of their failing in the highest point of their duty, which neither discretion, nor conscience will ever allow them to determine.    

The Appendix concerning the Cheshier and Lancashier-Minister's Plea for Non-Subscribers.  
THese are my thoughts of the doubts which you mention, to bee in the thoughts of your friends: one thing as an Appendix you add more, which as an appendix to all these foregoing discourses between you and me, I shall further also consider: and therewith conclude all further conferences on this Subject, except you shall desire the continuance thereof.  
Your words are these. I find( say you) that the Treatise of the Lancashier-Ministers seems to bee of great weight and strength, with many good men: If a clear Answer could bee given, to what therein is most substantial, it would give great satisfaction.  
Truly I do confess, that that Treatise hath a seeming strength in it; and I believe that it doth take much with many good men, that are oft-times but weakly principled in these matters; but I must confess, that to me, that Treatise hath no weight nor strength at all; and because you lay it before me, as a means to give great satisfaction, if there were a clear Answer given to that, which therein is most substantial, I shall with as much brevity as I can, show you wherein I find it substantially weak.  
First then, I shall offer to your consideration, whether at all, by all which they have said, any of these grounds bee shaken, which I have insisted upon all along, to show the conscionableness of taking the Engagement; to my understanding( I profess) I find not that they have directly touched, or meddled with any of my grounds to any purpose at all; for which cause, as I have no Engagement at all upon my spirit, to deal with their plea: so I think it neither needful, nor discretion in me, to take the task of other men upon me, who are better able to maintain their own positions then I am: therefore I shall say nothing to the whole Appendix of their Treatise, which contein's the Answers which they give to the Arguments, which other defenders of the Engagement have brought for it; and the Replies which they make to the solutions of the doubts, which are alleged against it: wherein little or nothing is touched of that, which is my plea for it.  
But secondly, if I were to deal upon some other account, with these Non-subscribers about their Plea, either in charity to themselves, to set them right; or in compassion towards others, to undeceiv such as think their reasons weighty, I would say nothing to their preliminarie discourses, from page. the first till the tenth, for as I would have all men bee towards myself; so I would bee towards them in my thoughts; and consequently, I do charitably believe of them, that they have truly delivered not onely the series of their thoughts, concerning their own case and condition, in reference to the present and former estate of affairs; but also the motives which have constionably induced them to publish the reasons of their dissatisfaction at the taking of the Engagement; nor would I set myself to observe narrowly the Method of their proceeding; but I would endeavour in simplicity and truth, to examine and remove the grounds of their dissatisfaction, that their desires so far as they are truly christian, and equitable might bee fulfilled: and with these preliminarie dispositions of mind, on my part, I would first come to state the Question between me and them, to know how innocent upon the whole matter, their plea for non-subscribing might bee found: and then in the second place, I would propose the Principles, and the manner of proceeding, by which wee might come to the decision, and determination of that Question. These things would bee requisite to handle the matter thoroughly with them: but to let you, or any equitable reader understand, where the invalidity of the substance of their plea doth lye, as to my conception; I shall not need to proceed by so many degrees; for one that is not prepossessed, as the Pleaders may bee, it will suffice to show, what the full strength of their whole plea is, as they propose it; and then where that strength doth fail them to make out their main purpose.  
Their main purpose is to show, that to subscribe the Engagement, is a thing inconsistent with a good Conscience, and therefore ought not to bee pressed upon them.  
To make this appear, they do two things; First, they construe the Engagement, and declare the sens, wherein they think it is to bee taken. Secondly, they allege the reasons, for which they cannot take and subscribe it, in that sens and construction: Now if it bee made evident, either that they wholly misconstrue the Engagement, and therefore ought not to take it in that sens, wherein they declare they understand it; or that supposing their sens in some respect to bee tolerable; yet that the main grounds of the Reasons which they rais upon that sens, will not reach to the proof of their conclusion; then I suppose, it will clearly follow, that their whole discourse is of no solidity: not onely, because they mistake the whole case of Conscience in reference to the Engagement; and so bring in all their reasons upon a mere mistake; but also, because the grounds of their reasons are not sound to evince their purpose, although the case were not mistated. Now to me, both these ways the Treatise is unsatisfactorie; for I think it may bee made out very fully; that they not onely misunderstand the Engagement; but that their reasons prove not what they intend, for so far as they misunderstand it not.  
First, I shall show you where to me their mistake lies, in the sens of the Engagement; and then where their main Reasons are not sound to oblige consciences. Concerning the meaning of the Engagement, they first allege the words; and then complain of the generality and ambiguity thereof; and lastly, deliver the sens, wherein they conceive it ought to bee taken, by the opening of three things.  

1. The Object 

of the Engagement.    
2. The Matter  
3. The Form   
By the object they understand a positive, and particular form of Government, erected in the Land, and invested in certain persons, expressed in these words. The Common-wealth of England, as it is now established without a King and house of Lords.  
By the matter in the words, I will bee true and faithful, they understand not a mere negative and passive cessation, and succumbencie; but a positive devotedness to obedience, and active diligence in doing things commanded; and a maintaining of the Government in being, against all competitors, especially against the excluded King, and house of Lords; and aversion from promoting any other government while's this Engagement is in force.  
By the Form of the Engagement, in the words, I do declare and promise that I will; they understand an obligation for time to come, indeterminately and without limitation; so that it is onely in the will of the engaged to, to determine the length of the duration of the Engagement.  
That which they say, concerning the matter and form of the Engagement, they stand not much upon; nor shall I think amiss of it, because in some respect, all may bee admitted; but the corner-stone of their future building, is that which they say concerning the object, or the party engaged to; which I do think, is a very gross mistake, as they have stated it. The words of the Engagement expressing the object, are well alleged, to bee the Common-wealth of England as it is now established, without a King and house of Lords; but the sens which they make of this Common-wealth, as thus established, that nothing else should bee meant by it, but a positive and particular form of Government lately erected, and invested in certain persons, is a clear mistake of the whole foundation of their Plea, against the taking of the Engagement, and maketh all that is built thereupon to bee ruinous: and although they seem to allege some colourable reasons, why these words of the Engagement are to bee taken in this sens; yet if the grounds which they pretend to have, for that construction of the words of the Engagement bee rightly weighed, they will appear exceeding weak: and evidently contrary to the mind of the authors of the Engagement, and their words in the express Declarations, directly relating to this matter, contrary to the rational construction of the words of the Engagement, look't upon barely in themselves: and contrary to the Rules of Christian equity, and ingenuity, observable by good subjects in a business of this nature.  
First, by the Margin of their Plea, they intend to colour their interpretation from the words of an Act, for a day of humiliation, April. 19. 1649. and out of some other Acts indefinitely vouchsafe; which intimate onely that, there is a government now settled in the way of a Common-wealth, or free-state: I shall grant willingly, that these words are truly vouchsafe; but from them I deny, that it can bee rightly inferred, that therefore the sole and main object of the Engagement is nothing else but the Government, as it is erected, and invested in certain persons; for the settlement of a Government in the way of a Common-wealth is a thing mainly distinct from that, which is meant properly by a Common-wealth; for such a settlement doth presuppose, that there is a Common-wealth in being: for how can a Government bee settled in a Nation after the way of a Common-wealth, except you presuppose that Nation to have the being of a Common-wealth? that is, to bee a State free from servitude, to the dominion of one man's will, to bee a Common-wealth, therefore is somewhat antecedent, to the having of a Government settled in the way of a Common-wealth.  
But secondly, to put it out of all doubt, that this is the true meaning of the authors of the Engagement; I shall refer you, not to some Declarations of theirs, which speak collaterally, and by the by of this matter; as these pleaders do, to led themselves and others into a mistake; but to the Declarations, wherein the authors of the Engagement speak to this matter of set purpose, which the Lancashier Ministers ought to have headed; because, Ignorantia legis neminem excusat. There is then an Act, Die Sabbathi 19. may, 1640. whereof the title is this.  
The Act declaring, and constituting the people of England, to bee a Common-wealth and Free State; and the words thereof are these in the following Paragraphs.  
Bee it declared and enacted by this present parliament, and the authority of the same, that the people of England, and of all the Dominions and territories thereunto belonging, are and shall bee, and are hereby constituted, made, and established, and confirmed to bee a Common-wealth and free State.  
This is the first part of the Act, by which wee see clearly, as also by the title, that they mean properly, by the Common-wealth of England the People collectively taken in their National relation.  
The second part of the Act followeth in these words. And shall from henceforth bee governed as a Common-wealth, and free-State, by the supreme authority of this Nation, the Representatives of the People in parliament, and by such as they shall appoint, and constitute, as Officers and Ministers under them, for the good of the people; and that without any King and house of Lords.  
This is the whole Act, by which it is as clear as the Sun at noon day, that they take a Common-wealth originally, and properly to bee antecedent to the Government established in it; and therefore that their meaning is, that the object of our fealty should bee directly, and properly the Common-wealth in this sens; and the Government reductively, as it is settled in a Common-wealth-waie, which they define to bee in the supreme and subordinate Officers; the supreme to bee Representatives of the People in parliament, and the subordinate to bee such, as they shall appoint and constitute under them, &c. whence to my understanding it followeth undeniably, as also from the title, by which the parliament doth style itself, viz. the parliament of the Common-wealth of England; that the direct, and principal object of Truth, and faithfulness set before us in the Engagement, is the being of a Common-wealth, as in the Act it is explained and established, and that the collateral object of Truth and faithfulness depending hereupon and offered to us in the Engagement as subordinate thereunto, is the manner of the establishment now in being, without a King and house of Lords; which is the Government in a Common-wealth-waie by Representatives in parliament, and Officers appointed by them: and as for their expression of the matter; viz. That it is a Government as it is now erected and invested in certain persons, it tends evidently to corrupt the Reader's mind with a jealousy against the persons in place, as if they would exalt themselves by the Engagement to bee alone respected as the whole Common-wealth; which I am persuaded is far from their thought.  
From all which appeareth, that they complain without cause a of Protean ambiguity, and too great a generality of the words of the Engagement: General and Ambiguous words are not all one thing: True Generals have as proper a sens in their Comprehensiveness, as particulars have in their Circumscription. But now( because men love to misconstrue) when to prevent mistakes, the words are explained in proper significant terms, in what sens they are to bee taken( as by the aforesaid Act is don●) then to mis-interpret them odiously against the sens of the authors, is not well excusable in the Interpreters. As for Anbiguous words, they are properly such as may bear a different sens of things no way agreeing in nature, nor any where explained, nor explainable by any rational construction made of them by other words whereunto they are joined; which also cannot bee said of the words of the Engagement, if onely looked upon by themselves, in reference to the proposed scope of those that do impose the same. For no intelligent man, looking impartially upon these words, with a reference to the declared aim of those that impose the same can make rationally any other construction thereof then this; That the object of his Truth and Faithfulness must bee first immediately and directly the Common-wealth of England; and then secondarily by way of Reduction, and in order thereunto, the Establishment of this Common-wealth as now it stands by the Government of parliament, without a King and house of Lords; for all intelligent men, if they will bethink themselves, may know, that the word Common-wealth is taken sometimes for the Collective, sometimes for the Representative body of a people; and that without all ambiguity; because these two Bodies are not in the nature of human society of different kindes; but being from one Principle, and to one end, they are always to bee understood joint in their existence, and by their natural properties complicated together; and yet they may bee conceived, and are sometimes offered to our thoughts as distinct in their order and notions: therefore when in the same speech both the notions are distinctly intimated and offered to our apprehehension, and that in their due subordination, it is very irrational for any man to reject that which is the first and Principal, and take hold onely of the second and subordinate. Now in the words of the Engagement both these Notions are offered as distinct, and in their natural order expressed; for the first and principal Notion; which is the collective Common-wealth, is made the immediate and direct object of our promise as it is distinguished from the other by the denomination of England, which signifie's the body of the Nation, as if it were said, I shall bee true and faithful to the People of this Land in their free state and national relation to each other, for common welfare. And then the second and subordinate Notion which is the Representative Common-wealth is made the reductive and mediate object of the Engagement; as it is distinguished from the former by the reduplicative expressions, As it is now established: and the explanatorie terms relating to this establishment, without a King or house of Lords. now to make the reduplicative matter of the Engagement to bee the sole object of the promise, when the direct matter is in express terms before mentioned, and to make the representative Common-wealth, the sole thing meant, when the collective or represented Common-wealth is not only presupposed in the nature of the thing; but in express words first mentioned, is to me very irrational and far from ingenuity, although there were none other exposition of the words else where exstant: but now when both the words in their frame and disposition lye so fair, and there is so clear an expression of them elsewhere; then to complain of so much ambiguity, and upon that complaint to arrest the sens so far; bewraie's a great deal of partiality and forestalement in the mindes of those that so take it up.  
Besides al this, another consideration doth offer itself which may discover the aim of the authors of the Engagement and their sens in imposing it, and will make any impartialman, who can rationally construe men's actions as well as their words, perceive, that the main object of the Engagement cannot bee meant the sole government as invested in certain persons; because the persons, who are said to bee the object of the Engagement, do all of them take the same Engagement themselves, and in the same sens wherein it is offered to others to bee taken: now to say that they in taking it make themselves the sole object of their Engagement, and do understand by the word Common-wealth of England nothing else but themselves, is to me so absurd, that I cannot imagine it to be incident to men of ingenuity; and so injurious to their public professions( whereby they have declared so many ways that their Engagements and undertakings are wholly for the People of the land collectively, as they are a Nation; to bee true and faithful to them and to their liberty) that, for conscience sake, I dare not suspect them to mean otherwise then they profess. And if upon these grounds I am obliged rationally to beleiv that this is the main object of their taking the Engagement, I must also conclude that they intend others should take it in the same way. And as for the establishment whereof they themselves are a part being taken not individually but in their state-relation, it is no absurdity that in order to the main object, their state-constitution should bee a secondary object whereunto each of them should bee engaged: and in what sens they are engaged thereunto, it is their meaning that all who take the Engagement should bee analogically in like manner engaged. Now they cannot bee otherwise engaged, to their own state-relation and constitution; but as they are members of the Nation, and so far as they understand that constitution to bee subordinable to the good of the Common-wealth in a collective sens: therefore no body else can or ought to bee otherwise engaged thereunto, but as they relate unto the Nation, and as the constitution of the government is in that subordination. And I am very confident that none of them will say, nor any that understand themselves will think oherwise. As for mine own part in all businesses of this Nature, which concern subjection and obedience unto Superior Powers; I conceive the Rules of Christian equity and ingenuity oblige me not to interpret either the actions or the words of my superiors suspiciously in the affection of State-jealousie; but to make the best Construction of them which they possibly can in reason bear; the best use of them which I can according to my duty intend: and answerable to this rule I have declared my sens of the Engagement, so far as I found in it a clear duty; and my willingness to bee true and faithful to that duty. And this is the rule by which I conceive an ingenious Christian ought to interpret the purpose of the Engagement. Nor is it equitable in him to think that his Christian Rulers would desire any thing more of him by it, then what this doth come to: therefore I trouble not my head with any Political onstructions, or conjectural events of my superiors proceedings, to puzzle myself or others therewith; if I walk within mine own sphere of subjection by a clear rule, I shall bee inclined to wish and hope that others may do so also within their sphere of superiority; but if they fail, I am not their judge, I must leave them to God, and bee sorry for that which seems to bee their failing; and pray that if it bee a fault, God would rectify it. Thus you see, how to me, their main and fundamental position, whereupon their whole plea is afterward grounded, is a mere mistake, and that a very gross one: for they having thus misconstrued the object of the Engagement; upon this mis-stated case they draw up their whole plea in two heads of arguments, whereof the first is taken from the questionableness of this object; the second from their obligation to their former Engagements. The plea taken from the questionableness of this object is from pag. 12 till 35 under two heads. The first is from the Thesis, and general position; That no man can warrantably oblige himself to bee true and faithful to a power or state gotten and held unjustly, whether to afford it a permissive sufferance, or an active support: This is handled from pag. 12 till 19. The second is from the Hypothesis or particular Position that this present power to bee engaged to, is both gotten and held unjustly: which they endeavour to make out in two respects; first in respect of the Government removed or dispossessed, which is insisted upon from pag. 19. till 26. Secondly in respect of that which is erected in stead thereof from pag. 26 till 35.  
These are the heads of the first plea; the sum of all which comes to this; that seeing none ought to oblige himself to bee true and faithful to a power which is unjustly gotten and held; 
Pag. 12.  because none ought to partake of, 
Pag. 13, 14.  or abet with, 
Pag. 15  and co-operate in, other men's sins; but all ought rather, and especially Ministers, to oppose sin in all; 
Pag. 16, 17, 18, 19.  therefore none ought to oblige himself to be true and faithful to this present power; because this present power is unlawfully gotten by the dispossession and removing of the former Government 
Pag. 20, till 26.  without law and right to do so 
Pag. 26, 27, 28. ; and by the erection and investing of itself, 
Pag. 26, 27, 28.  which is a power not known what it is, 
Pag. 26, 27, 28.  nor where it is placed, 
Pag. 26, 27, 28.  nor whence it comes f and is short to 
h Pag. 30.  any ordinary use, 
Pag. 29.  and many ways injurious to the King, Prince, and Peers, and to their respective hereditary dignities and powers, to the house of Lords, to the house of Commons, 
Pag. 31, 32.  to the People, and to the Laws of the Land 
Pag. 33, 34. . Thus the first plea, supposing the object of the Engagement to bee nothing else but the present powers, argue's against them.  
Their second plea, relating to former Engagements hath two branches in like manner; the one is from their preingagement, as Subjects, from pag. 35 till 43; the other from their preingagement by sacred oaths from pag. 43 till 57: the sum of all which comes to this; That the Engagement, whereof the present powers are the sole object of Truth and faithfulness; ought not to bee taken, because they are under a tie of subjection to powers Diametrically opposite to these 
Pag. 35, 36.  which are still in being; and not at all abolished, 
Pag. 37, 38.  neither by a judicial decree of the settled and supreme authority, nor by any forcible erection, 
Pag. 39, 40.  nor by God, 
Pag. 41.  nor by the original constitution of the people, 
Pag. 42.  nor by any Laws or Statutes 
Pag. 43. : and because they are under sacred oaths, 
Pag. 44 till 51  which are diametrically opposite to the powers set up by the Engagement, and which continue still in force to oblige them as unrepealed and unrepealable 
Pag. 51, till 57 . This is the whole strength of their plea: it runs all along upon this mistake, That the Engagement doth intend onely to oblige us to Certain Persons, who style themselves the Common-wealth, as it is now established without King and Lords, as they themselves clearly say pag. 29, and taking this as granted,( which I have shewed to be contrary to the manifest declaration whereby the Common-wealth is constituted, contrary to the Rational sens of the words of the Engagement considered by themselves, and compared with that which the authors thereof intend by their own taking of it; and contrary to the equity and ingenuity of Christian men requisite in business of this nature) they build a plausible, but unsound, plea against the Engagement, by contradicting the lawful standing of the present Government. But to overthrow their whole plea at one blow, by that Act which I have evidenced, to bee the true object of the Engagement; I shall argue thus. That Engagement which require's nothing else, but that every one should bee true and faithful to the Freedom, and Common welfare of the Nation; as these are now atteinable by the establishment wherein it stands, every member of the Nation is bound to take; nor can any preingagement whatsoëver lawfully hinder any from taking the same. But this present Engagement require's nothing else but this: therefore all are bound to take it; and there can bee no preingagement lawful to hinder the taking thereof; as for them, they wrest the sens of the Engagement to pick a quarrel against the authors thereof, that they may bring in matters of fact, concerning the change of the Government odiously against them, and that they may take an opportunity to interpret the circumstances of their proceedings in reference to the change, as inconsistent with known Laws, and former engagements; but I finding that the Engagement in the obvious and rational sens, wherein it becomes every private man, and good Christian to reflect upon it, doth contain a clear duty, which I am bound to close with; I give my assent freely to it without any more ado; and although I am not ignorant, that the Engagement itself doth presuppose a change befallen to the State of the Nation; yet, because it doth expressly oblige me to look upon the Common-wealth onely, as now settled; and in time to come, to perform a lawful duty towards it, therefore I am not obliged to ravel into former matters, which were antecedent to the change, to examine what hath been don to bring it about, and whether it is come to pass warrantably, or unwarrantably: for I find not that God doth bind the decision of that matter, to determine the lawfulness or unlawfulness thereof, upon the Conscience of any private man, such as I am, nor will he have me to suspend a duty, which is necessary in praesenti, upon the disquirie of such disputable matters; therefore when these pleaders oblige every private man, to ravel into matters of fact past, and to entangle their Consciences into the Judicature of the causes of the change, before they will suffer them to engage, to bee true and faithful to the Common-wealth as now it standeth, they take tacitly for granted, that which by no means is to bee yielded; and which I in my first considerations have clearly denied, and proved not to bee warrantable, viz. that every private man may constionably take upon him, to bee a judge of the right, or wrong management of public affairs; here then is another great weakness of the plea; that before they either make it out, or attempt to show it lawful for private men to become Judges of the causes of public changes, so as to make that Judicature a matter of Conscience to themselves, they actually undertake upon a conscientious account that judicature,& impose it upon the consciences of their unwary Readers, definitively to bee look't into; and in effect ground all the reasons of their plea upon this bottom,( which they have no right to determine) viz. that the change of Government hath not been lawfully brought about; and consequently, that the present powers have no right to their places; and consequently, that it is a sin against the Conscience of good subjects, and Christian Covenanters to promise( at the requiring of the present Powers) to bee true and faithful in time to come, to the Common-welfare of the people of the Land, as it is atteinable by the present constitution, which is without a King and house of Lords. Now although I should suppose( for argument's sake) their premises, that the change which hath befallen to the government of this Nation, was not lawfully brought about, as to the manner of proceeding therein; yet if I bee lawfully convicted, that it is beyond my sphere, to take upon me the Judicature of that unlawfulness; and if it bee made probable unto me by all the former proceedings of parliament, that for the safety of the Nation, there was a necessity of some change of Government; and that the King could not stand in the possession of that Power, which he was formerly entrusted withal: and if I can conceive, that when swords are drawn, positive Laws are silent, and when those which manage the supremacy of power are at variance amongst themselves, about the fundamentals of their settlement, that then opposite parties in power can act for their own, or the public safety, none otherwise, but according to emergencies, and that private men, as good Subjects and Christians ought to acquiesce, and make the best use they can of the result of those emergencies; If( I say) I am thus principled( and that I ought to bee thus principled in my station, they cannot deny) then it will clearly follow to my Conscience, that however the change doth fall out, and in whose hand soëver the power doth remain, I am not to make a new quarrel with them for it; nor to bind over my Conscience, to call them to an account of their former transactions about it, to get it in their hand, nor to refuse them that are in place my concurrence towards the procurement of the Common-welfare so far, as it may bee atteinable under their Government, by good and lawful ways; which is the clear case of the present Engagement to my understanding. And if upon the general matter of fact thus stated( which I suppose will not bee denied) and my conscience thus principled( which I suppose will not bee condemned, and I am sure is not convinced, by any thing which they say) they tell me of particular irregularities in former proceedings, and argue from thence as they do; to conclude, that I ought not for the time to come, to concur with the present powers, in the tenor of the Engagement, though I find in it a clear duty, will not I justly( though I might grant them all their premises) deny their consequence? I shall therefore say, that although they are incompetent Judges of matters of fact; and have no right to sentence the present powers to bee without right to their places; yet granting that contrary to positive Laws, and Contracts settled in former times, between the parties then in power, a change is fallen out in the Government, and the powers, upon the change are now altered;( I say) granting all this, yet it will not follow, that I am bound in Conscience, either to refuse the taking of the Engagement, as it is tendered, or to oppose the present Government, which are the two main things they drive at; but you may see how weakly to a judicious Conscience thus principled. Thus then, over and above the grand mistake of the object of the Engagement, you see here again, is a main flaw in the ground of their reasoning, although there had been no such mistake, and although all the matters of fact which they allege, should bee granted unto them. For let past-matters of fact bee what they will, if it cannot bee made out, that private men, in places of subjection, are obliged in Conscience, to judge definitively of the supreme proceedings of their supreme Rulers; then it cannot also bee warrantable, either for them to take those matters of fact, upon which they ground their Arguments, judicially into their consideration, as they do, in reference to Conscience; or for me upon their suggestion to define the same in that same relation, and if this cannot bee don warrantably, either by them, or me, in respect of things past, but I am bound to look onely to that which is at present, and in time to come, my duty in my place of Subjection: then all the presupposals upon which they draw inferences, to make good their conclusion, have no argumentative strength at all; but are wholly taken off, and made inconsiderable, as to my Conscience.  
And if it bee objected here, but how can you dispens with you self, from looking judiciously into matters of fact, of a public nature; Seeing your former oaths and Engagements have obliged you, to have a respect thereunto, and to become concurrent, to maintain the former settlement? I answer, that the former oaths could not bind me, to have a respect, or to bee concurrent towards the former settlement, further then my place, and the station of a private man doth allow me to meddle therein; now that place and station did allow me, both then, and now, no more but the use of my judgement of discretion, to look upon the changes of public affairs so, as might bee most advantageous for me, to manage mine own resolutions towards a concurrence, in that which might tend most to the public good in my way; therefore I took all the Engagements as thus meant; nor is it lawful for any, to tender any Engagement unto me upon any other terms. Thus then I have still a respect to matters of fact in public, in my place, by the judgement of discretion, to maintain the settlement which is, as formerly, before the change, I had to maintain the settlement which then was, so long as it was in being: but since, without any concurrence of mine( who was never called to manage a public trust) the change is fallen out, by the management of those who were in trust, and a new settlement is erected, and an Engagement proposed unto me, to bee true and faithful to the Common-wealth under it; I find myself bound in Conscience to take that Engagement, without scrupling, or questioning the title of the power, to the place of supremacy, wherein I find them, or without calling them, or others to an account, of the causes of the change; I find these things without my line, and am not warranted to meddle definitively with them; and if the Cheshier and Lancashier-Brethren had seriously resolved upon this matter, I suppose, they needed not to have troubled themselves, or others with their plea for Non-subscribers, whereof, perhaps it will bee needless, to show you any further my sens of it's fundamental weakness. But yet to go one step further, let us suppose, that some of your friends, whom their plea hath mainly prepossessed, will still scruple, and stick at the plausibleness of their fundamental Argument, as it may bee taken, with some advantage above what the pleaders themselves have said, from that which I seem to yield: viz. that the Government is some part of the object of the Engagement, whence their scruple may rise thus: if you grant, that this Government is some part of the object, whereunto wee are to engage, to bee true and faithful; and if it doth appear unto us to bee unjust, unwarranted and oppressive, in regard of the atteinment and continued possession; then wee cannot with a good conscience subscribe to bee true and faithful to it; but you grant that the Government is some part of the object, whereunto wee are to engage, to bee true and faithful, and it doth appear to us to bee unjust, unwarranted, and oppressive, &c. therefore wee cannot with a good Conscience subscribe unto it.  
To this there is a twofold Answer. First, I grant not that the Government by itself, and solely considered, is offered to us in the Engagement; but as it is reductive to, and complicated with, the main and direct object of our truth, and faithfulness, which is the Common-wealth of England: therefore our Truth and faithfulness is understood to bee engaged to it, as it is reasonable and subservient to the Common-welfare of the people of this Land. Seeondly, I have shewed, that you as private men and Subjects, are not to take upon you the Judicature of the just, or unjust atteinment, and possession of supremacy of power in your Superiors: but you are to look onely upon the duty, which is due to them from you, as you are under them, and they undoubtedly in supreme power; if you trouble your Conscience with more then this; you are out of your line, and in a snare, and therefore ought to free your Conscience from the entanglement thereof: nay, although you should not, nor could not, bee otherwise persuaded, but that those who are in supreme power over you had both gotten, and do hold unjustly their power; yet except you could show, that the Engagement by obliging you, to bee true and faithful to them, doth intend to engage you to bee so to them, in the way and course of their injustice, you have no just ground to scruple the taking of the Engagement; for the pleaders themselves in page. 12. confess, that men lawfully may promise to bee true and faithful to an unjust party, and person, in that which is just and right; If then the Engagement doth intend to require nothing of you, but what is just and right, then, although you cannot lay down the scruple of their unjust acquisition, and possession of power, yet you may for ought that the pleaders have shewed to the contrary, take the Engagement; for the pleaders have not at all proved, nor ever attempted, to prove, that the Engagement doth intend, to oblige us to powers which are unjust, in the way and course of their unjustice, to bee true and faithful to them; but this they take up gratis as a thing granted, though it is not granted, but strongly denied; and so they beg the Question in this business also, which is the fundamental weakness of their plea; as for mine own part, I am clear in that which formerly hath been said, concerning the object of the Engagement, in the sens which the Act explain's it, and besides, if wee look upon the Act, by which the Engagement is enjoined to bee taken, wee shall find in the Preface thereof the intent for which it is to bee taken, to bee none other but to prevent conspiracies, tumults, and wars against the present settlement, which is a thing absolutely just and lawful, to bee required of Subjects by their Magistrates, and to bee promised by Subjects unto their Magistrates. If then this is the professed and declared purpose of the Engagement, although it should bee never so manifest, that they who are in places of power had gotten, and hold their places unjustly; yet if the Engagement doth oblige these that take it, to nothing but what is just, by the pleader's own confession it may bee taken: therefore I suppose it is abundantly made out, that it obligeth the takers to nothing, but what is just, both in respect of the object, whereunto it engageth us, and in respect of the intent and purpose, for which it is enjoined to bee taken.  
The last matter of proof which they insist upon, from page. 43. till 57. is a plausible allegation of the contradictoriness of former oaths, to the object of the present Engagement, as they deliver it, and of these oaths in force, to oblige to this present time. To make these oaths seem contradictory to the Engagement, having alleged the words of them which mention an obligation to the King, and kingly Government, and to the privileges of parliament, they oppose a Common-wealth-State, and Government, without a King and house of Lords, and a Government solely, and onely established in a party of the house of Commons, and then to make them seem still obligatory; they allege first, the provision of Duration made by the oaths themselves. Secondly, that the ways and means by which oaths are repealable, and may bee annulled are not appliable to these; Thirdly, that the things sworn to, remain still lawful, and possible, and therefore the oaths still binding.  
To these allegations, this is truly, advisedly, without respect of persons, and partial interests to bee said( as in page. 46. they desire such as are not of a reprobate mind to judge,) that if the object which they put upon the Engagement, were such as they make it, then indeed there could bee no reconciling of these oaths with this Engagement; but because it is evident, that the object of the Engagement is not what they say it is, but what wee have proved it to bee, viz, the Common-welfare, and Freedom of the People of the Land, in their National association; therefore there is no such contradiction, between the Engagement and the former oaths, as they represent: the difference is onely, that the former Engagements aiming at the same thing, which this doth aim at ( viz. the Common-welfare of the people of the Land,) they mention the means then in being, by which that aim was to bee prosecuted by all men, in their several places, and so oblige them to make use of them, and to uphold them, so long as it should bee possible, and lawful for them so to do; but this later Engagement doth mention the abolition, or non-existence of those means, and yet doth oblige to the full prosecution of the same aim; which to my understanding doth clearly take away the contradiction: for I say, except there bee shewed an opposition, in the intents and purposes of the former and later Engagements, there is no contradiction; but this cannot bee shewed, if the object of the later Engagement bee truly stated: for if it could not bee the meaning of the Laws, by which the former Engagements were established, to intend mainly any other thing by those oaths, then that the Common-welfare of the people of the Land should bee upheld, by the means and ways mentioned therein; then there can bee no contradiction between them and this Engagement, which doth in express terms intend nothing else. But I suppose it is clear to all, that the meaning of the Laws, by which these oaths were established, was none other. Therefore there can bee no contradiction between them and this Engagement; for although they mention not the Common-wealth and the Rights annexed to the Imperial Crown, &c. and that no fear, nor terror, nor any earthly thing shall make us alter this resolution; this is certainly to bee understood, with this supposal, that the things remaining so as they are, wee shall bee so towards them as wee promise; that is, wee shall endeavour to maintain them, and that no fear nor danger shall cause us to alter that resolution; but in case the King's authority should cease to bee, or cease to bee just, or in case that state of Parlament-Privileges should come to bee utterly abolished, and the rights annexed to the Imperial Crown made wholly voided, then I suppose it is not understood, that I am( notwithstanding such emergencies) obliged to maintain them, and that without any respect to Common welfare, and without any respect to the lawfulness and possibility of the prosecution thereof, in my place and calling; and if it bee considered, that in extraordinary emergencies in a state, no positive Constitutions, Laws, and rights are able to keep up the establishment settled upon them; but that in such cases, all men must fly to the fundamentals of the universal law of nature, to do that, which by it's tenor is most warrantable, and expedient for common safety, and consequently, that in such cases, all circumstances of former Engagements being altered, nothing but the main end, and the main Principles of common safety and society, will hold out, and bee obliging: if( I say) this bee considered in these, and then in Hypothesi applied to our present affairs, and the changes under which God hath brought us, I conceive it will bee evident enough to perceive, that the oaths which formerly( as matters then stood between us, as private men, and our Superiors) were lawful, are not now at all in force, as matters now stand between us, as private men, and the superior powers which are over us; if therefore the Brethren that make this plea, for the continued force of former oaths, in respect of circumstantials, to bee obliging to the consciences of private men, would have dealt with us convincingly, and strongly, they should have made it out unto us, either in thesi, that notwithstanding all possible emergencies, such oaths, are still in all respects to bee obliging; or in Hypothesi, that now to us, in this change of State-affairs no such emergencies are fallen out, as are valid, to take off the former circumstantial parts of our obligation; but because I find no such thing proved, nor attempted to bee proved, therefore their plea to me is weak in this respect also.  
These are all the pillars upon which that building of theirs doth stand, which having so weak and sandy foundations, as I have discovered them to have, will fall to the ground, in the thoughts of such, as without prejudice will search into these matters. The particulars need not further to bee insisted upon: because they are matters of fact, and of positive Law, which I make not my work to dive into, so as to build any conscientious judgement of doubtful matters thereupon, in these emergencies to steer my course by. And because the chief things therein considerable, which relate unto Conscience, are either fully resolved in other Treatises, and particularly in the Memorandums of the conferences, which lately I sent unto you; or will receive a more particular cleared from some papers, which I have in a readiness, to bee made communicable unto you, and others, who stagger in their way, and stumble at these stumbling stones, I shall continue to pray unto the Lord, that wee may all bee more and more enlightened, and directed to impart the light, which wee have received in the spirit of meekness, and love one to another, without any other end or design, then our mutual edification in Righteousness, to the glory of our God in Jesus Chrtst, in whom I am truly for the Gospel of Peace sake  
Your unfeignedly affectionate 
 Brother and servant 
 JOHN DURIE. 
 St James's this 
 20. Sept. 1650.   

worthy Sir!  
I Received the books you sent, and return you many thanks; I must needs acknowledge, that I cannot sufficiently express, how much I am obliged unto you, that are pleased to show so great respect to me, a stranger to you, and such as by no interest of desert, can claim the least respect from you. Give me leave to provoke you to pursue your intentions, of giving an answer to Lancashier-Ministers , and not to bee weary of the work you have begun, in seeking to give satisfaction to the consciences of such, as are truly tender, and are kept off from engaging, by nothing, but onely by fear of offending God; what you have already don in these two last pieces, I doubt not but will give eas to many that have been pinched, and what you intend to do, will give further help in this kind. If your pains should not have that success, and respect with men, as they deserve; yet that God who seeth the sincerity of your heart, and the integrity of your intentions, will not let you go unrewarded; but when that promise of blessedness pronounced to Peace-makers comes to bee fulfilled, you shall then reap the full fruit of all your labours. Our good God assist you, and give you happy success in all your undertakings, and endeavours, to this end and purpose; to his mercy I resign you, and rest  
Your most obliged friend and faithful Brother in Christ. The 19th of Octob: 1650.   

ERRATA.  

The greater faults.  
page. 17. line ult. for ym red my, page. 28. l. 17. for follow, r. follow it. p. 41. l. 20. f. in these, r. in Thesi. p. 54. l. 20, 21. r. Rule is given. p. 85. l, 27. f. grant that the, r. grant the, p. 59. l. 9. f. will make, r. will not make, p. 81. l. 23, 24. r. right use of, p. 90. l. 7. f. arrest, r. wrest.   

The lesser.  
In the title for occasionably, red occasionally, p. 11. l. 35. f. implore, r. imply, p. 22. l. 28. f. prudentially, r. providentially, p. 46. l. 11. f. step. r. stop, p. 66. l. 5. f. commons, r. common, p. 93. l. 10. f. erection, r. election.   
FINIS.