A Friendly Debate Upon the next ELECTIONS OF PARLIAMENT And the Settlement of Liberty of Conscience, In a Dialogue between a City and Country ELECTOR.  
With Allowance.  Coun. 
WELL Friend, you have promised great and wonderful Things, if you are but able to perform them. And since you are so set agog upon such ● Settlement of Religious Liberty, and there's like to 〈◊〉 such bandying for Parliament Men to go through ●ith the Work, that our Penal Laws and Test and all like the old Walls of Troy, to let in the Grecian Horse) must be pulled down to make room for it; What ●i●t you if you begin with the Penal Laws? and ●●nce they carry the more venerable Antiquity of the two, ●●ant your first Battery, and try your first Artillery ●gainst those elder Fortifications of our Church.  Cit 
With all my Heart. And as I remember, ●our tenderness for their Preservation proceeded, 〈◊〉 you declared, from the Necessity and Validity of ●●ch Laws for the Defence of our Church, and 〈◊〉 Danger threatened Her from their Repeal; together with your Justification of the Equity of ●●●ose Laws, from the Wisdom and Zeal of our 〈◊〉 Pious Reformers that founded them, and the continued Industry of all our latter Lawmakers in so religioussy and constantly maintaining of ●●em.  Coun. 
Yes, much to that Tenure were the Positions I ●id down.  Cit 
To begin therefore, and answer first to ●●ur Dangers, etc. Let us inquire what our ●●urch has lost by Liberty of Conscience hitherto, snath that means make some reasonable Examination to her future Danger, by a true View and Survey 〈◊〉 present.  
The King you see has already granted all Men their Liberty of Conscience, by virtue of which Liberty they have the freedom of Preaching, Praying, etc. without any let or molestation whatever. And y'will allow that a Universal Toleration, by Act of Parliament, can open their Meetinghouse Doors no wider than an Universal Indulgence has already done.  Coun. 
You are t'th right for that. For the passage, I confess, is as free where the Gates are set open, as where they're thrown off the Hinges, and so an Indulged Liberty, or a Magna Charta one is much alike for that. But pray what would you infer from thence?  Cit 
Only to ask you, what visible loss has the Church of England sustained by this Religious Liberty. I suppose when you go to Church yourself, you are not so wholly taken up with your Devotion, but you can now and then spare half a Minute to look about you, and see what Company you have there: And pray do you find any apparent Diminution or Lessening of your Auditory since this Indulgence.  Coun. 
Why truly now you put me to it, I think very little; But, cry you mercy, upon recollection, I have lately missed some few of our Congregation, particularly no less than three or four Eminent Parishioners, sometimes Dissenters, that during the late Execution of our Penal Laws, to my special observation came to Church, and are since fallen off again. By the same token they used to peep in just once a Mouth and no more, (but better once then never) and mark you me, they nicked it so prettily, that they made their entry just after the exit of the Common Prayer, or if by chance they came within three or four closing Lines of it, 'twas as much as ever I saw 'em strain to. And truly when those wholesome good Laws were put in Execution, we might have brought a great many more of our Dissenting Parishioners to Church too, but that the remiss Justice of Peace of our Precinct was a little too tender hearted.  Cit 
Then I warrant, the rest of your Dissenting Parishioners were of the poorer sort, and your Justice at Peace did did not think them worth the Prosecution.  Coun. 
Upon my Word you hit him to a Hair. Truly that worthy Gentleman (His only fault, he was too good Natured for the Authority he bore) was observed never to Prosecute any of our Dissenters, but the topping Men amongst them, the Richest and Fattest of them: However he did not make Cobweb Law-work on't, to his praise be it spoken, though he suffered the Weak to slip through, I assure you he noosed the Granddees to some purpose, so sued them, and fined them, and danced them from pillar to post, etc. And truly to show you what Blessings of God attended him for this Zeal and Pains taking in the Church's Cause, i●●a● remarkable, that in our late two or three Years Reign of our Penal Laws, he thrived better and grew richer than in twenty Years together before he had his Commission.  Cit 
A Justice of Peace Thrive and grow Rich with three Years Penal Laws! Why Friend, that high Harvest Time well managed was enough to have made them all Aldermen. I warrant you this Justice of yours recovered swinging and thumping Fines upon Fines from them, as you talked before, for these obstinate Noncons I doubt not would endure hard squeezing before they'd Buckle.  Coun. 
Fines! Ay, and well they scaped so. He might have indicted them upon the 35th of Elizabeth, and then nothing but Abjuration and Banishment would have served their turns. But merciful good Man, he contented himself with only pouring out the milder Vials of our softest Penal Wrath, in the punishment of their Pockets and Estates, by Confiscations, Sequestrations, etc.  Cit 
Now pray be so kind as to satisfy one Curiosity of mine.  Coan. 
What's that?  Cit 
How many of these Fines, Confiscations, Sequestrations, etc. you speak of, did this merciful good Justice of Peace return into the Exchequer?  Coun. 
Humh! The Exchequer!  Cit 
I Friend, prithee don't shrug at it, but for once be candid, and answer this Point; say, how many of them did he return into the Exchequer?  Coun. 
Truly if I must out with it, I am afraid but few or none, that is, if the present outcries of the vexatious Dissenters be true, as I hope they are not, for alas there's little credit to be given to so litigious and clamorous a Generation. However poor Man he is prudently and timely retired, to be out of the malicious noise of them. And what if after all, he was a little slow or tardy as they call it, now and then in some of those Chequer Returns, I hope it was no such impardonable Crime to make spoil of the Egyptians; besides His then Gracious Majesty, Heaven's Peace be with Him, did not so much want it perhaps as He, and several of those honest Gentlemen in his Post might do. And if they did not foresee or fore think of an after Reckoning, and possibly might be tempted on a present occasion to make bold in that case? probably too, like Judas Thirty Pence, they might not think it worth the Royal Treasury, and therefore might lay it out in a Potter's Field, or a Daughter's Portion, or so. Alas, what then! Envy itself can't say, but He and indeed all the rest of those worthy Gentlemen under the same Dilemma, if they did sink a little, as they call it, into a by Pocket of their own, I am sure they deserved it all: To be at the daily charge of Scouts and Pickerouns their Informers, and to spend so much in March Beer and other good fortifying Liquors, besides so much good Breath in Halloo's to hearten on the cold-scented Constables to hunt down the Conventicles. And do you think after all, that such hard Labourers in our Church Vinyard deserved nothing? Did they not toil and thresh in the cause to recover those Fines, & c.? And have we not an express Command, that we shall not muzzle the Ox that treads out the Corn.  Cit 
Prithee for shame, no more of this Banter! was the high and mighty Zeal of our late Church Champions, our Indefatigable Magistrates, in executing the Penal Laws, no more than a Religious Money Trap? Was the upholding our Church by punishing Dissenters, intended, as we are made believe, for the Propagating of Apostolic Truth, and Conversion of Souls, and the intended Service of God; no more at the Bottom then a false cover for the robbing of Caesar? But to leave those private (I might say general) fault's lying at the doors of the Guilty, and come to the merit of our Penal Laws; what operation have these Penal Laws made, (these Laws that the Declaration so wisely observes, never answered the Ends they were designed for) any more than to drive a few Dissemblers, into our Church; a handful of Dissenters, that possibly in tenderness to their Wives and Children, and not prepared for a voyage to Carolina or Pensylvania, strained Conscience to temporise with Necessity; and so only peeped into Church, as you observed, once a Month to save their Bacon. And do all the great and wonderful Penal Feats and Achievements terminate only in making a few Hypocrites, instead of Converts.  Coun. 
Why truly now you talk of Hypocrites, I think indeed but few of our compulsioned Conformists came to Church hearty.  Cit 
Did they not so? I need not then recount the loud and woeful Anathemas pronounced against Hypocrites, and much louder undoubtedly must the Establishers and Executors of such Laws deserve, that compel, wrack and torture Men out of their true Zeal and Piety, into such false and pernicious hypocrisy. And consequently how little of Christianity can dwell under the Roof of such rotten Fabrics: And after all if mere Policy and Reputation of a Church, were the only argument for her conduct in that point; how much more to Her credit is it to have her Congregations composed of all her own true and zealous professors; then to cram in such a mongrel sort of Proselytes, to disgrace the Flock they herd with; and what a Derogation to the very glory of God must it be, where the Unanimity of Prayers and Praises, and an intended Harmony of Hearts in so sacred a Work as that of Devotion, is so manifestly Disjointed and Dissordered by such a Babel Confusion of Worshippers; and therefore with what more honourable and fairer face (under the Dispensation of Indulgence) does our Ecclesiastical Constitution appear, where our Temples and Altars are not reproached ●or profaned I might say, by so scandalous a mixture of Communicants.  Coun. 
Indeed Friend, I do acknowledge that the Executing of the Penal Laws have rarely produced any greater effects than those you mention, as having truly (more's the pity) wrought but very few real Conversions, (for these stif-neckt Dissenters are an incorrgible sort of obstinates) but however, is an honest good Law to be condemned, for no other Defect then want of Power to restrain Offenders; you may as well at that rate arraign the ten Commandments, nay the very Gospel itself; for all the Irreligion and Atheism of the Age.  Cit 
Nay Friend, stop a little there; the Defect of these Penal Laws, lies not only in their want of Power to restrain Offenders, as you call 'em; for that part of their Defect arraigns' only the Policy of those that made them, and is the least part of their fault; but their greatest and most capital Defect is, that the very Tenure and subject matter of those Laws is altogether inexcusable.  Coun. 
You will do well to make out all that Charge against them.  Cit 
Alas, the every days Arguments on this subject, are so public and so common—  Coun. 
That I warrant, you are unwilling to be at the trouble of repeating them, because perhaps some of them have been said before, and are not all your own; prithee let not that break squares between us, no matter whose or where they come; I shall be glad to hear Reason though as old as Adam, and Truth, (if a Man could meet with it) which they say is not ashamed to walk naked, has Charms, that not like other Beauties, are less agreeable or inviting, because public and common.  Cit 
Then take that naked Truth, and own the Charms you give her; first by what just Authority can the Church of England establish Laws to punish Dissent in Religion and Nonconformity of Worship! He that punishes, aught to be assured of a Wrong done, or an Evil committed by the Transgressor, or else both the Law condemning and the punishment inflicted are unjust. But the Worship of God according to the best Light of a Christian Conscience, (and that's all the Crime the Dissenter is punished for) is so far from Evil, that 'tis the highest duty of Christianity. And can that Law be justified by the standard of the Evangelical profession, that so notoriously restrains Men from so indispensable a Duty.  Coun. 
Alas, you mistake yourself, these Laws do not restrain Men from that Worship of God, but rather compel'em to it: Are not all the Doctrines of the Church of England founded on holy Writ, and extracted from ●hat sacred fountain of Truth, the Gospel. And has: not the wisdom and care of our great Reformers weeded and purged the profession of Christianity both in Doctrine and Worship, as now believed and practised in the Church of England, from all Inno●●●●●● and Errors whatever crept into it. And if God be the God of Order, where is Order and Unity think you, to be established; if not in the Church of God; and if that Order be so to be established there, as undoubtedly 'tis, shall we on the contrary open a Gate by Liberty of Conscience, to let in all the dissorder and confusion, that such Libertines and Enthusiasts can bring amongst us. And is it so great a fault in our Penal Laws, or the Maternal care of a Church sometimes in life the Rod to 〈◊〉 an Obstinate and Disobedient Son.  Cit 
Truly Friend in this wide Answer of yours, you have not directly replied to my Assertion: However, as you have here mustered the very sum total of all our Church has to urge in vindication of her Penal Laws; the Discussion therefore of these her weightiest pretended ponderous Arguments, and the Cutting this seeming knotty Gordian, will be no little Step towards adjusting our Debate, and setting us to Rights.  
In order to which, First I believe not only the Doctrines of the Church of England, but the points in Controversy between her and her Dissenters, (for theirs most of them and our Doctrines are the same) are founded on holy Writ, and extracted from those sacred Fountains of Truth, as you say. But pray have not several of the Dissenters the very same Basis; the Scriptures too even for those Tenants and points in differance between us.  Coun. 
How now! I hope you are not for making the Scripture play the satire in the Fable, blow hot and cold both with one Breath; can the Scripture reconcile Contradictions? can Truth play the Janus? And can opposite points of Faith or Divine Rites of Worship be both at once supported by the sacred Oracles of the Gospel.  Cit 
I dare not tell you that they can, but this I dare tell you, as there is but one God and one Gospel, so there are those Great and Fundamental Truths, delivered in that Gospel so plain and Evident, that he that believes and practices accordingly, and to the height of his Ability, lives up to the precepts and commands contained in, and derived from those Fundamental Truths, cannot err in the path to Salvation. But on the other side as there are several lesser points contained also in, or deduced from that sacred Volume of the revealed Mysteries, that from Generation to Generation have admitted of Dispute, and which (without setting up an Infallible Judge) neither have been, are, or will be adjusted to the end of the World: And consequently, the numerous Christian Dissenters, in those forementioned points of difference between us, neither are, or will be reconciled as long as the Sun and Moon endure; how unreasonable therefore is the Institution of Penal Laws, to punish no other Transgression than this Impossible Reconciliation. And to bring it more home to the Church of England, a Church that utterly disowns any such Infallible Judge, confessing her own and all other Fallibility: Her punishment of Dissenters carries the most notorious face of Injustice, that all her. Eloquence can never answer, nor Sophistry itself can palliate: For what assurance, as Fallible, can she have, but that the Dissenters in those points in Difference, may be in the Right and herself in the Wrong; and therefore with what forehead dares she pretend, (in so tender a concern, as no less than the Liberties, Estates and Lives of her Dissenting Brethren struck at by our Penal Laws) to punish Dissent as Erroneous, when possibly the error may be on the punishing and not on the offending side.  Coun. 
Truly I should be a Dissenter myself should I dare contradict so established an Opinion of our Church as ●●●ability. And therefore I must acknowledge we ●pan● no ●●●ther assurance of the Right on our side, in the aforesaid controverted Points, then founding our Truth (in that matter) in contradiction to their Mistake, only upon our Internal Evidence testifying for i●, Aflight o● Judgement of Conscience, that after a serious, ●●at●●re and deliberate Examination, and from our own Int●●petation of the Spiritual Records, decides in our own Favour, and gives Reason and Strength to our own Arguments and Opinions.  Cit 
This very acknowledgement has undone you; for the Dissenter himself has that very Light and Judgement of Conscience, that in contradiction to all your Reasons, decides for his own. And if no stronger a Light can erect Penal Laws, supposing our Church Government in the Dissenters Hands, he has the same parity of Justice to turn all our own Penal Weapons, or others as sharp, against the very Breast of the now Church of England.  Coun. 
Troth, Friend, to give you your due, I think there's a little small matter of Sense, some little smattering of Reason in this Argument of yours, that, hang me, if at present I am provided with a Reply.  Cit 
No matter, hear the end of it, and lay your own and your helping Neighbours Heads together to answer it. He that is an Enemy to this Charter of Religious Liberty, and that defends our Penal Laws in matter of Religion and restraint of Conscience, or endeavours the choice of those Representatives in Parliament, that shall uphold them, justifies the Deaths of every Protestant that died by the Laws of Queen Mary, and all the Erection of Stakes and Inquisition Houses; and ought not in Justice to complain, were it possible that Popery should ever be so reestablished again in England (as that indeed it never can be)—  Coun. 
Never! Are you sure on't?  Cit 
Yes never! But of that in its proper place. As I said before, grant the supposition of the same reestablishment of Popery, He ought not to complain or murmur were the old Smithfeild Fires rekindled, and himself one of ahe Number that Blazed in their Flames.  Coun. 
Heyday, Here's a bold Launch indeed. But I hope you are not serious, for if you are, you'll have tough work to vouch what you say.  Cit 
Not so tough as you fancy: For to state the Balance between them. Our Church in Power and Dominion, upon the presumption of being the True, Ancient and Apostolic Church, and herself only in the right, sets up Gibbets to punish her Erroneous Recusants, and establishes jails, Consiseations, Sequestrations, Abjurations, Banishments and Halters here again too, to punish her erroneous Non-conformists. And pray did not the Church of Rome in Power and Dominion set up Fire and Faggot to punish her erroneous Recusants too, under the same presumption of being the true ancient Apostolic Church, herself only in the right, and her Heretics in the wrong. (I might have said greater Presumption, for her supposed Infallibility gives her a confidence of that right and wrong which our tenderer Modesty only allows us Hopes of) And consequently by the same Equity of Condemnation we tacitly avow her Hereteci Comburendi to be as honest and upright a Law (when in force) as 27th or 38th of Elizabeth.  Coun. 
But hold a little, my nimble Friend, I hope there's some little difference between the Church of Rome and the Church of England.  Cit 
I undoubtedly a great one.  Coun. 
And therefore I hope the Laws and Penalties to support our Innocent Primitive Faith and Purity; as severe as you are pleased to represent them, and the Laws to support such an Erroneous, Superstitious, Idolatrous Religion as that of Rome bear some little Disproportion,  Cit 
Disproportion! none at all: for grant all this outery of Error Superstition, etc. against the Romish Religion, true: she has as authentic a justification of her Penal Laws, as we can have of ours: We are indeed to consider that the Scripture is that Ark or Cabinet, in which Gods Divine Truths are Reposited, but with all so Reposited, that the Key of Knowledge that opens to them, does not unlock to all Men a like. 'tis not the absolute and perfect Knowledge (for such Perfection is not given us) of Good and Evil, and Truth and Falsehood in every entire Part and Particle: But only the Presumptive Knowledge of them that sets up Churches and Laws to support them; and therefore the Romish Church with an Equal or (rather) more strong Beleif of her Divine unerring Truth and uprightness, has as sufficient and authorative warrant for her penal Inflictions in matter of Conscience, as we can have for ours. And indeed power in the Saddle, in any Church whatever; whether Christian, Jewish, Mahometan, or Heathen itself, upon the granted supposition of a human Right of Dominion over Conscience, with the same (though not so well gounded) a presumption of Right on their side, has the same plea for all the Barbarities that Persecution or Cruelty has, can, or shall commit. And therefore (as I said before) he that upholds any such penal Power of Restraint of the worship of God, and avows the government of Conscience, any other than the pecular Province of the Almighty, and wholly without the Jurisdiction of Man, opens a boundless and insatiate Torrent to all the licentiousness of Tyranny, that mad Zeal, or Spiritual Pride under the Colour of a Law (for that they could not want) can set a floating. And these very Records, our Penal Statutes so uphold deprive us of all Right of Appeal even to God himself, against the Injustice or Oppression of any Ecclesiastical Restraint of, or Persecution for Conscience, that any other Church whatever in power over us does or can excercise upon us. For what have we then more done to us than we ourselves will to have done to others.  
And more particularly to the Dissenters part, if they either infatuated or scarcrowed out of their Reason, shall neglect the embracing of His Majesty's gracious Offer, and elect any Members of Parliament that they shall know are not inclining to this Religious Liberty, they justify not only the Fines, Imprisonments, Sequestrations, etc. that the Members of their own Communion have from Time to Time, so violently Suffered from our Penal Laws; but also the Deaths and Blood also of so many Thousands (for no less than Thousands are their number) of their Brethren that have died in Jail under the Restraint of those Penal Laws. And consequently they must either confess themselves not in the Truth, in exercising that Religious Worship for which they so Suffered, or else that whole Congregations of Christians, may and ought justly by Law to be deprived of Freedoms, Goods, Chattels, Estates, etc. and to Rot, Starve and Perish in jails, with Truth on their side; and that so Suffering for Truth, is Justice and Equity.  Coun. 
Why truly City Friend these Reasons carry an indifferent fair Face with them.  Cit 
Indifferent only?  Coun. 
Then suppose for once I granted your Point thus far. I have so many more Rubs and Blocks in your way still, that you'll sinned no easy matter to get over.  Cit 
Let us adjourn then this Evening, and come as fresh to morrow Morning with 'em as you can.