A familiar DISCOURSE, BETWEEN GEORGE, A true-hearted English Gentleman: AND HANS A Dutch Merchant: Concerning the present Affairs of England.  
LONDON, Printed by T.N. for Samuel Lowndes, and are to be ●●ld at his shop over against Exeter-house in the Strand. 1672.   

A familiar DISCOURSE, Between George a true-hearted English Gentleman, and Hans a Dutch Merchant, concerning the present Affairs of England.  George. 
WEll met, mine Heer Hans, my old acquaintance; but why so sad, I pray thee?  Hans. 
younker George I am hearty glad to meet with so good a friend, to whom I may safely impart my thoughts and discover the ground of my sadness. I pray let me give you a glass of wine, that we may have but one half hours discourse together.  G. 
With all my heart, Hans; and I shall give you another.  H. 
I will tell you, George, Coming lately out of Holland, I have been much amazed to see here so great animosities, and preparations for war against my countrymen, who are your brethren, of the same Reformed Religion, and therefore ought( as I ever judged) to be closely Leagued together against our common Enemies, who, like so many Lions, watch for an opportunity to devour us both.  G. 
Indeed, Hans, it is the Interest of every Nation, to fortify themselves against their Enemies: but what if we cannot perceive a greater and more dangerous Enemy to our Nation, then your countrymen?  H. 
I hope, George, you will never be able to make that appear.  G. 
Yes, Hans, that hath sufficiently appeared to all understanding men above these fifty years; and I have oft heard old States-men say long ago, That by our great assistance, and too long favouring the Hollander against the Spaniard, we should breed up a Serpent in our bosom, that at length might devour us, and that the Hollander would be one day such a Thorn in our sides, that would hardly ever be plucked out.  H. 
Good George, what were those great favours and assistances that we have received from the English, for I am not old enough to remember, nor am I much conversant in History.  G. 
I will then reckon up to you some of them. First, whilst you were all Heathens, one Willibrod, a holy zealous English-man, by his great pains, and hazard of his life, first planted the Christian Religion amongst you. Long after, when you were all overwhelmed with the Superstitions of Rome, and began to desire a Reformation, and for that were sorely persecuted by the Spanish Inquisition, insomuch that five thousand families left their houses, and fled out of the country; this our Nation received most of them, appointed Churches for them, and allowed them many noble privileges here.  H. 
These indeed were great Civilities, and we ought never to forget them.  G. 
I pray, Hans, do not interrupt me, for I can reckon divers more, and those very considerable. In the year 1585. when the Spaniard pressed your country very sore on every side, that you began to be in a most desperate condition, England took pity upon them, took them into protection, sent over to their assistance 5000 Foot, and 1000 Horse, lent them great sums of money, obtained great aids for them from the then Prince Elector Palatine, removed the great Staple of English Cloth from Antwerp to Delft in Holland, which occasioned the great wealth, and many fair Buildings there to be seen at this day. Then the English protected your countrymen in their Navigation and Trade, gave them particular Licenses to Fish in the British Seas, and encouraged them every where abroad, whilst the Flower of the English Nobility and Gentry, spent their blood, and lost their lives in your country at home, in defence thereof.  H. 
These indeed were very signal favours, and and we should be the most unworthy wretches in the world, if we should not for ever aclowledge them upon all occasions.  G. 
Yes, Hans, you shall see anon how they were requited: but I have not yet done with the kindnesses multiplied by the English upon the Dutch.  
When the enraged Spaniards saw, that by the valour and powerful assistance of the English his Forces and Moneys were most unsuccessfully wasted and consumed, he sent fifty thousand old Souldiers out of his other Dominions into Flanders, to devour the Hollanders at once: Hereupon the English sent over answerable Forces, with Moneys to maintain them; for they maintained at one time, as credible Authors report, forty thousand Horse and Foot there, in the service of the United Provinces, insomuch that not long after, when we perceived plainly that you thrived and grew rich by the War, and we grew poorer every day; about the latter end of Queen Elizabeths Reign we began to think of withdrawing of our Forces, and demand the sums of Money which the Hollander had borrowed, with promise of payment thereof to us in due time, which was in all above twenty hundred thousand pounds Sterling, a Debt we find not ever yet discharged: besides which mighty Sum, it was computed before the coming in of King James, that we had spent upon them in setting forth Fleets, and other Charges for your sakes, above one Million of money, and lost in that Service there above one hundred thousand English-mens lives. King James afterward considering the premises, refused to assist them any longer: and not long after, observing how insolent the Hollander was grown, he issued out a Proclamation, wherein His Majesty declared, That since His Majesties great Indulgence had given occasion to His Neighbours, to encroach upon His Regalities, to question His Right, to wrong and injure daily His Subjects in their Trade of Fishing, so as they were constrained to abandon that Trade, whereby it came to pass, that divers of His Sea-towns were depopulated and decayed, the number of Sea-men daily diminished, which was of high consequence and importance to this Nation, considering how much the strength, and wealth, and security thereof consisteth in the power of Shipping, and use of Navigation: Therefore that his express pleasure was, That no Foreigner, of what Nation soever, should be permitted to Fish upon any of the Coasts of Great Britain and Ireland, and any of the Isles adjacent, without express leave first obtained of His Majesty.  
Notwithstanding all this, your countrymen in a short time after grew so haughty and insolent, as not onely to continue their encroachments on our Coasts, but at length to contest with that peaceable King, and down-right to claim a Right to what they demanded, and though His Majesty did then, by His Commissioners and Ambassadors, condescend to debate that ancient Right of England with them, and conjure them not any longer to provoke him by infringing His Rights, which He and all His Ancestors had ever enjoyed without the least interruption: Yet did your countrymen abuse His great patience by artificial delays, pretences, shifts, dilatory addresses and evasive answers. And though they were at length brought to aclowledge the Dominion of the British Seas to be the Right of the Crown of England, yet then confiding in their greatly increased Strength at Sea, they soon after invaded this Prerogative with more insolence then before, as may be seen in the printed Letters which passed between Secretary Naunton then at White-hall, and Sir Dudley Carlton, then that Kings Ambassador at the Hague.  H. 
Truly, George, if these things were so, it is a wonder, that King did not then break out into an open War with us.  G. 
He had certainly reason enough so to do, when I have  told you that which I had almost forgot. When the English had first settled a Trade in the East Indies, for some years, and settled divers Factories there, they did not refuse to permit your countrymen to Trade by them as much as they pleased. But those wretched people increasing in wealth, and at length perceiving their strength to be greater there then ours, they forgot all former Kindnesses and Friendships, and began not onely to undermine us treacherously and wickedly to supplant us in our Trade there, but also utterly to exclude us out of those parts: and to that end in the year 1622. most barbarously seized upon the English Factories and Goods, to the value of 400000 l. Sterling, tortured and murdered many of them in a more cruel and horrible manner, then ever Turks used Christians, or the Spanish Inquisition ever treated those they called heretics: which Inhumanity of theirs was so monstrous, that the Dutch to this very day are infamous for the same among the rude and savage Indians: And King James being truly informed thereof,  told your ambassador at London, that he had never red nor heard of a more cruel impious fact; but being a man of peace, he declared, that he did forgive them; but added with a kind of prophetic spirit, [ My Son's Son will revenge this blood, and punish this horrible massacre.] Since all this, during the Reign of King Charles the Martyr, your countrymen have committed many other enormities and cruelties upon the English, who endeavoured onely to continue a small Trade there, and have endamaged particular Merchants of England many hundred thousand pounds, and by engrossing all the best Spices, and selling them at their own rate, they daily impoverish, not onely our Merchants, but this whole Kingdom, from whence they draw yearly for those Commodities above 400000 l. one main reason of the great want of Silver and Gold in England.  H. 
Truly, George, I cannot any longer deny but that we are much to be blamed: yet I am confident, that all this hath not so much proceeded out of any ill-will to the English, as out of too much Love of gain.  G. 
That may possibly be true in part, for it hath been observed particularly of your Nation above others, that when Gain comes in competition, they do forego not onely all Honour and Honesty, but even all Religion too. But to proceed. When King Charles the First had seriously considered, how his good Subjects were used by your countrymen, in all parts of the World where they had power, and how bold the Hollanders were in His Seas, Rivers, and Ports, His Majesty thought it high time to set himself to kerb their insolency, and to put a stop to their most prodigious growth, and to this end took care to strengthen His Kingdom in Shipping, and to declare by Proclamation, That perceiving that all the Inconveniencies which had occasioned the forementioned Proclamation of His Royal Father, were rather increased then abated, His Majesty did resolve thence-forward to have in readiness such a power of Shipping, as might be sufficient to hinder the like encroachments upon His Regalities,( and thereupon began to build that famous Vessel, called since The Royal Sovereign, and some other Ships of War; for which good End, and honourable Design, he was forced by the refractoriness of a Faction in His Parliaments, to lay the Tax called shipmoney.) And because His Majesty saw, that those extraordinary preparations did occasion many jealousies and discourses abroad, he declared farther by a public Writing, That first, he held it a principle not to be denied, That the King of Great Britain was a Monarch at Land and at Sea, to the full extent of His Dominions; and that it concerned Him as much to maintain His Sovereignty abroad, in all the British Seas, as at home within His Three Kingdoms, because without That, These could not be kept safe, nor He preserve His Honour and Respect with other Nations. Secondly, he held, That whosoever would endeavour to encroach on His Majesty by Sea, would doubtless do it also by Land, when ever they shall find opportunity. To avoid which, after long abused patience, His Majesty saw no other hopes, then by maintaining always a powerful Navy. Thirdly, it was very notorious, how of latter years His Majesties Dominion at Sea hath been disobeyed and questioned. That at first to cherish the poor distressed Dutch, leave was given them to gather strength and wealth upon these Coasts, in these Ports, and by the English Trade and People: That upon their humble Petitions, Licenses were given them under the Great Seal of England to Fish upon these Coasts; and when by leave or connivance they had for some time Fished upon all the Coasts of England, Scotland, and Ireland; and by the English Staple of Woollen Clothes brought from the Spanish Netherlands, and settled in their Towns, they arrived to an extraordinary power in Shipping, they refused at first to be kept at any distance from these Coasts: After that, they began to keep Ship-guards on these Seas, to prohibit even the English to have free Commerce there, to seize on their Ships and Goods, if they refused to comform to their Placaets; to interrupt the Trade and traffic of these Seas by Ships of War and Free-booters, to presume at all times to enter into all His Majesties Ports and Rivers, to come up as high as the Chief City, to cast Anchor close to our Magazines, to contemn His Majesties Officers when they required a farther distance, to assault and take the Ships of His Majesties Allies, even within His own Chamber or Channel, and within his Rivers, to the scorn and contempt of His Majesties Dominion and Power. That this their ordinary practices, His Majesty having in vain endeavoured for divers years, by Treaties, to reform, he thought it high time to put himself in this Equipage, both for His own defence and safety, for preserving His ancient and undoubted Right in the Dominion of these Seas; to suffer no other Prince or Potentate to encroach upon His Regalities, but to constrain them to perform due Homage to His Admirals and Ships, to pay them acknowledgements as in former times they all had done; to set open these Seas, and therein to protect a free Trade of all His Subjects, and also of all His Allies, and to give them such safe Conduct and Convoy, as they shall reasonably require: To suffer no Fleets or Ships of War of other Nations, to keep any Guards upon these Seas, to take any Prizes or Booties, to offer any violence, or give any interruption to any lawful intercourse. In a word, That His Majesty was resolved to do Justice, both to His Subjects and Friends, within the Limits of these Seas; and that this was the Real and Royal Design of that Fleet.  H. 
Certainly, George, that King was a very good Man, and would not declare publicly any untruth; if so, then he had great reason to make such extraordinary Preparations: but I do not remember what became thereof.  G. 
Not long after began those unhappy Rebellions, first in Scotland, then in Ireland, and lastly in England, which gave a long check to our happiness, and to this design. And in the mean time your countrymen very cunningly, bought up much of our best English Oak,( which for Shipping is the best in the world) cut down by our wicked Rebels, and sold to you at very low Rates; and you then increased so prodigiously in Naval power, that even those Rebels began at length to see, that the main and principal Interest of England was to stop the growth of the Hollander; and therefore took occasion in the year 1652. to make a rapture, and to prosecute it so far, that they had almost done their work: But that Design was then broken in the midst by Oliver cromwell, who dissolving the remainder of the long factious Parliament, and usurping all the power of the Nation, thought it his own private Interest for a good sum of Money to clap up a peace with your countrymen, at a juncture of time, when it lay in his power in all human probability, to have done the highest piece of service for this Nation that could possibly have been effected,( except onely the Restoration of our present Sovereign, whom God long preserve) for he might then have humbled your Nation to that degree, that they should have been glad of the Protection of England, and so from thenceforward have lived in great Amity and Peace together; and not onely our Trade would for ever have flourished, but thereby had been prevented the vast expenses of Treasure and blood, which our two last Wars have since occasioned, to the great Impoverishment and Damage of this Kingdom.  
But to go on. Within two or three years after that first rapture with your countrymen, they having set themselves to build new Ships, and increase their Naval strength, began again to supplant the English Trade in several parts, and resolving to fright them quiter out of that small Trade the English retained in the East-Indies, the Hollander grew so insolent, as not onely to prohibit the English all Trade at Bantam, where they had a Factory, but seizing on their Ships and Goods, most cruelly and barbarously treated the Sea-men, torturing some, and murdering others: for which, to prevent another rapture, the Hollanders were content to pay to our English East-India Merchants 50000 l. Sterling, in the year 1658. at Amsterdam. About two years after, you know was the most happy Restauration of King Charles the Second, who having received at the Hague divers respects and civilities for several days, before he took Shipping for England, was afterwards very unwilling to break Friendship with them, till their insolences and Injuries cried so loud for vengeance,( as may be seen in the Memorials presented by His Majesties Envoy to the States General at the Hague) that there was no other Expedient left but another rapture, which happened in the year 1665. when the Dutch were grown much more powerful at Sea( by the addition of many new-built mighty Ships) then they were in the former rapture, and much more unanimous at home: yet we had then, especially after the first Fight, good reason to hope, that we should have not onely abated the pride, and stopped the growth of your countrymen, but also have weakened and humbled them, so far as that they should never have risen up again to be a Thorn in our sides. But their time was not yet come, their sins were not then ripe; and therefore it pleased the Sovereign Disposer of all things, by a most sore Pestilence, and a very dismal Fire, at that time to put a stop to our Victories and successses. Whereupon a Peace was concluded at Breda, in the year 1667. Since which, they have built so many, and so great new Ships of War, that confiding in their exorbitant power, they have not onely ventured again to supplant our Trade,( the want whereof causeth so great murmuring in England) but also to break all the Articles of the Breda Treaty, and utterly deny His Majesties Sovereignty over these Seas, and to threaten us to join with the French, to invade our country, and swallow us up for ever. Whereupon His Majesty, having first made sure of His Allies abroad, and carefully provided at a most vast expense, not onely such a formidable Fleet, such great Stores of Ammunition, such a number of brave Seamen, but also such a Full Treasury, as none of His Ancestors ever were Masters of, thought himself obliged again to declare War against the United Netherlands, this present year 1672. not onely to chastise them for their breach of Faith and Articles, and for their most scandalous Libels, insolent and unmannerly Pictures, Verses, and Representations of our King and Princes.( which should make the blood of every loyal, true-hearted, well-born English-man even to rise against them) but also to establish and augment our Trade both at home and abroad; and above all, to maintain the ancient Sovereign Right and Dominion over the Narrow Seas, which is one of the first Prerogatives of the British Kings, and should be the last wherewith they should ever part; for without that, what advantage will it be for England to be an iceland? and how will it be more secure from Invasions, then any. country upon the Continent? and how easily would our Trade and traffic be taken from us? Wherefore considering that the Sovereignty of the Seas is the most precious Jewel in His Majesties Crown, that to touch that is to touch the Apple of England's Eye; that it is next, under God, the principal means of our wealth and safety; and that it hath lately most injuriously been invaded by the Dutch; all true English Hearts and Hands seem to stand obliged by all lawful ways and means to preserve and maintain the same, with the utmost hazard of their Lives and Fortunes, with a cheerful expense of their blood and their Money, with a resolution never to lay down Arms, until they have accomplished this great and good Work.  H. 
Well, George, in case you should get your will upon us, you will then be as little contented as now.  G. 
Why so, good Hans?  H. 
Under the Rose be it spoken, your King will then cicatrise over you more then he doth now.  G. 
Yes, Hans, that may easily be done; for no King, Prince, or Potentate in the world doth tyramnize less then he doth, or ever hath done since he came to this Crown.  H. 
What means then this Bleating of Sheep in mine ears, and this Lowing of Oxen which I hear? what means so much murmuring and grumbling in many places against the King and His Court?  G. 
I will tell you, Hans, There has been grumbling at Kings and Courts, before you and I were born, and will be so when we are dead and votten. It is the nature of the Beast,( the common people) to be perpetually complaining of the Times, and of the Government. But beside; Here is a sort of ill-natured and ill-nurtur'd people in this Nation, who would speak evil of, and despise even the Son of God himself, if he should be sent to Rule over this Kingdom.  H. 
But in good earnest, George, do you not think that the English have just cause to complain, when they part with such vast Sums of Money?  G. 
Truly no. But I pray how much Money do you think His Majesty had of us towards the setting forth of this Fleet, the biggest and the best provided that ever England saw?  H. 
Much more then our superiors had of us for their Fleet, which is little inferior to yours.  G. 
How much I prithee was that?  H. 
About twenty Millions of Guilders, which amounts to about Eighteen hundred thousand pounds Sterling.  G. 
Very good; And His Majesty of England sets out this Fleet upon His own proper Charge and Credit.  H. 
But then I suppose in the mean time it must needs be, that the Ordinary Taxes, the gables and the Imposts upon all sorts of Commodities in England are much heavier then ours.  G. 
How heavy is that, Hans?  H. 
So heavy, that to mention onely in a few. We pay for Houses yearly the eighth part of the Rent; for Lands, above a third part of the Rent; for all Beer, where we pay the Brewer six Guilders, we pay five Guilders more to the State, and yet the Brewer pays Excise for his Malt besides; and no Subject, great or small, in City or Village, is allowed to Brew any Beer, but is constrained to take it all of the Common Brewer. Then for Wine, All the better sort of people pay a large Excise for two or three Hogsheads, or more, according to their quality, whether they buy or drink any Wine or not. Then we have a grievous Excise upon Fire, Candles, Salt, Bread, all sorts of Flesh, and indeed almost upon every thing that is necessary or expedient for the use of man: So that counting all, especially at this time since the War begun with England, he that hath a hundred pounds coming in by Lands, Houses, or Trade, pays to the State at least 25 l. by the year.  G. 
Truly, Hans, this you say amazes me; for I thought you had been a free Common-wealth.  H. 
So we are.  G. 
Wherein consists that freedom?  H. 
We are free of our Tongues, we can call our Governours, our Burgomasters, Skelm; and our States-men, Hunsfoot; and talk Treason without any punishment.  G. 
But I thought that since you did with the loss of so much blood and Treasure, withdraw your necks from under the yoke of a Monarchical or Kingly Government, and changed your State into a Common-wealth, you had been more free from Taxes.  H. 
No such matter, George; for one Stiver we paid when we lived under a King, we pay at least fifteen Stivers now. But I pray, George, answer me to my former question: Are not your Taxes now very grievous in England? for I remember that when the Rump Parliament( which we called then de Englische start Vergadering) made War against Holland, here was a Tax( for I was then in England) of Sixscore thousand pounds a month, for a long time; besides they had before taken into their hands all the lands of the Crown, of the Church, and of many Nobles who adhered to their King.  G. 
Truly, Hans, whatever was done then, we have now so few Taxes, and those so little grievous, that I can scarce tell whether we have any Tax at all; unless it be a moderate Excise of Drinks, and onely such Drinks as are bought and sold. Yes, now I remember one more, that some murmur against, and that is( as you have in Holland) a Tax upon Dwelling-houses; but as you pay every year the Eighth part of the yearly Rent to the State, we pay but the fortieth part, or thereabouts, to our King: and we call it Hearth-money, or Chimney-money.  H. 
O Heer, Godt then doth England swarm at this time with a Race of Jews!  G. 
Why so, Hans, what extravagant conceit is that?  H. 
They must needs be of the Race of the Jews, who being in such a happy condition above all the Subjects in christendom, yet every where( and more especially in London) I can hear murmuring continually against your Moses and Aaron, against your King and Bishops.  G. 
Good Hans, what is it that you hear them say against our King? God bless him.  H. 
mary they say, That this Parliament hath given to this King more money, then any of His Ancestors ever had in five times that space, and they know not what becomes of it all.  G. 
I shall easily grant that His Majesty hath had great sums of Money since His Restauration; yet not so great, but that if we seriously consider, the great Debts which cronwell left due to the Army and Navy; His Majesties own Debts contracted by Himself and Brothers beyond the Seas, by our fault, in driving them out of their own Land: then the building of so many and so great Ships of War, almost every year since His Restauration; the Storing of all His huge Magazines with Ammunition for all His land and Naval Forces; the maintaining of so many Garrisons upon all the Coasts of England; of so many great Guards of Horse and Foot at London: but above all, the waging of War some years against Three Potent Enemies, the Dutch, the French, and the Dane. If we seriously consider these things, we must rather admire how His Majesty could effect so great things with so little money: For I have been very credibly informed, that, during the late Usurpation, one years war between the English and the Hollander cost the English( who were then esteemed very frugal) above seventeen hundred thousand pounds; and yet their Ships and Fleets were not then near so great as now.  H. 
Indeed, George, I am of your mind in that point, and rather admire what becomes of all the Moneys, which the United Provinces squeeze every year out of their Subjects, which is almost Twenty times as much as ever our Ancestors paid, and almost Six times the settled yearly Revenue of your King; for our Revenue amounts( as I am assured) to seven Millions of pounds Sterling.  G. 
But I pray, Hans, what more have you heard of our King? Can any of those fanatic Grumblers, or Murmuring Jews, truly say, That during any twelve years since the Conquest, the Subject hath had less oppression, less injustice from their Sovereign, or more Clemency, and greater Condescensions? hath he ever denied His People in Parliament one reasonable request? Is not the Law open and Free to protect impartially even the worst of His Enemies now living, and the worst of schismatics, against the most Loyal and most Orthodox of this Kingdom, which is rather admired, then ever imitated by other Nations? Doth not every man at present eat of his own Vine, and of his own Fig-tree, and drink the waters of his own Cistern? doth not Israel, and Judah, and Levi too, sit securely every one under his own Vine, whereas heretofore the factious sacrilegious Rebels, and plundering Robbers, did sit under the Vines, and eat of the Grapes, which did unquestionably belong to the Loyal Honest Nobility and Gentry, to the Orthodox, Learned, Pious Clergy, to God and His Holy Church.  H. 
But dost thou think, George, that His Majesty takes a true measure of the Interest of His People, especially in this War?  G. 
If thou wilt have my opinion, Hans, I do believe, that no Prince understands his Interest better, and that he shows it particularly in this very War. Tell me, Hans, and confess ingenuously; do not you think that the grand Interest of England is to maintain Trade, and in order thereunto, to maintain the Empire of the British Seas against all Encroachers whatsoever?  H. 
It is not fit for me that am a Hollander to speak to that point, but I know what I think.  G. 
Well, did ever any King of England mind more that Interest, then our present Sovereign, whose Royal Father and Grandfather were indeed very worthy Princes, and ought in their times to have set about this work which is now in hand. Did ever any King make it more his business to inform himself touching Maritime Affairs; nay, I have been assured, that there is scarce a Sea-man in this Nation, that understands better the Building, the Rigging, the Victualling, the Charges, and the very Sailing of a Ship, then His Majesty of England, that understands better the Timber and Materials for Shipping, that can make better choice of Ship-carpenters; that no King in Christendom ever favoured so much the most ingenious persons of that most useful Profession, that can make better choice of a Sea-man, that none ever so much valued, cherished, and encouraged Mariners, that ever so well understood all our Coasts, Seas, Flats, shoals, Sands; and above all, the best way of fighting at Sea.  H. 
Truly, as the case now stands, it is hard to wish for a better Prince in that respect for you, and a worse for us: and yet I am confident, if a lasting Peace were once concluded between us, He would be our best Friend in the world, and if need were, would protect us, as His Ancestors have ever done, against all others that should ever attempt to wrong us.  G. 
Besides, Hans, do but consider how he hath thought nothing too much to promote this Grand Interest, His Majesty hath not spared the apparent hazarding of the Life of His onely Brother the Duke of York, at Sea.  H. 
And in good faith, George, he hath hazarded it with a witness now; for the Wind and Weather favouring us this last Summer, we had him in the midst of ten or twelve of our principal Ships, at such an unexpected advantage, that it was almost a miracle he should escape our hands.  G. 
Indeed, Hans, as I have been certainly informed, His Royal Highness did in the last Engagement behave himself with that Activeness and Conduct, with that Courage and Undauntedness, when he was sore pressed on every side, his Ship torn, and many of his best friends about him slain, and hath since endured many storms, and great hardship, with such patience, for the service of our King and country, that no Prince of the blood since the Conquest hath better deserved to be brought home with triumph, and received by this City with all expressions of joy and gratitude.  
But moreover, Hans,( to go on where we left) His Majesty hath not spared to hazard the Person and Life of His dearly beloved Son, his Grace the Duke of Monmouth, together with many of His choice and most valiant Nobility and Gentry. Also to promote this grand Design of preserving the just Right and Dominion of the Sea, and to recover, and thereby advance the Trade of His Subjects. That He might the better provide for His Shipping and Sea-men, His Majesty hath been pleased to save even as it were out of His own belly, and out of the bellies of all His domestic Servants, by a great and long retrenchment of His Court-tables, &c.  H. 
Nay, good younker George, say no more; I perceive well enough, that Benefacere & malé audire Regium est. It is too oft the fate of Kings( witness the last good King) to be very ill spoken of when they do best for their Subjects good. I marvel what it is, that this ill-natured people would have? When they had long abused, and at length murdered the best King, if not the best Man then in the world, and for that cause might very reasonably have expected, that God should have sent them next the worst of Tyrants, or some Usurper, some Heretical or Infidel King, to oppress them, and scourge them to death with Whips and Scorpions, as they well deserved; that God should even then be so gracious, as to sand them their own King, the true undoubted Heir of the Crown of England: Sure if they were not an ungrateful people, they should be ever praising God for so unspeakable a benefit.  G. 
Nay more, Hans, God hath not onely sent us our own King, but one that in His long absence abroad, amongst those of the Romish Religion, was never tainted with any of their errors, but at His first Restauration, made it His first work to restore( like another good King Hezekiah) Gods true Religion, the Rights and Revenues of the Church, the Priests and Levites, &c.  H. 
But, George, there is one or two things more, whereat many English of my acquaintance oft grumble, to answer which, I would be glad to be able; and that is, They cry there is less Trade, and less Money in the Nation, and more Lewdness, Libertinism, Incontinence, Intemperance, Debauchery, Irreligion, and Atheism, and a greater growth of Popery, then ever was; and that generally England is in a less flourishing condition then heretofore.  G. 
Sure, Hans, you have had ill luck to fall into very bad company since you came into England. I know very well, that we have too many English, who are largely endowed with all those qualifications of the ancient Jews, whereof the Almighty so oft complained. I know here are divers, who are not onely stubborn and stiff-necked, as those Jews were, but at that very time when God is leading them into the Land of Promise,( into Peace and Plenty) they are ever and anon murmuring and complaining, wishing themselves back into Egypt, and whining after their Leeks and Onions there( Numb. 11.5.) wishing for our former Arbitrary Tyrannical Government, under most disloyal treacherous Usurpers and traitors. As for the first complaint, of less Trade and less Money, it is apparent by His Majesties Customs, lately Farmed at a higher rate then ever, that the Trade in general cannot be much diminished: then it must be considered, that during the late wicked Rebellion, more Youths of all conditions being then put to Trades, for want of other employments, it is now come to pass, that they being set up, the Kingdom is much overstockt with Traders; all sorts of Trades are now divided into so many hands, that none of them can gain as heretofore, and few of them are able to live one by another. Lastly, it is no wonder that our Trade should be somewhat lessened, when the Hollanders make it their main business, by Lies and Cheats, most treacherously and ungratefully, as afore mentioned, to supplant all our Foreign Trade; which to prevent, our present Sovereign ever since His Restoration hath made it His main business( by still augmenting His Naval Power) and is now, God be blessed, almost arrived at His wished Port. As for the other point, that we have less Money, we may also thank the Hollanders for the same; for it is well known, that they having most unjustly taken from us the Spicy Islands in the East-Indies( one of which ( Poleroon) they have by four several Treaties solemnly promised to restore, and yet is not done to this day) we are forced, as aforesaid, to part with 400000 l. a year for Spices, and so proportionably for other Commodities. As for looseness, Intemperance, Debauchery, Incontinence, Irreligion, Atheism, and Popery; if there be more thereof then heretofore, where must justly lye all the blame, but even at the doors of those very Murmurers, and their Predecessors, who first disturbed, and then overturned the best governed State and Church in the world, letting in all sorts of Religions, which all wise men then foresaw would end at length in Irreligion, Popery, and Atheism, from whence must needs follow all Looseness and Debauchery. And indeed, the Issue and Consequence of that 〈◇〉, that Plurality of Religions in this Kingdom, at first countenanced by the factious part of the Long Parliament, was by many sober prudent men then foretold to be either Popery, or else Irreligion, profaneness, and Atheism. And I remember that St. William( I mean the holy Martyr Archbishop Laud, who being murdered on the day of St. William Archbishop of Bourges in France; which was the tenth of January, seems to claim a place in our English calendar) upon the Scaffold  told us, who were then sorrowful Spectators of his Martyrdom, That the Pope never since the Reformation had so great a Harvest in England, as by the many Sects and Religions then introduced: And indeed, when that excellent Person, together with the High Commission Court, those two principal Bulwarks against Popery, Heresies, Schisms, and all Licentiousness, were thrown down by the then prevailing Prsbyterian, no wonder if those Enormities have ever since increased amongst us.  H. 
But I hear some say farther, That this Kingdom doth not flourish as heretofore, the times are now harder, and the Subject in a worse condition then formerly.  G. 
I remember, Hans, to have red and observed in our Histories of England, amongst other things, that throughout all the most happy Reigns of Queen Elizabeth, King James, and the first part of King Charles the Martyr, there were a sort of people that were known by the name of Grumblers, who in stead of praising God for His great deliverances, and abundant blessings, would be always murmuring against the Times; a People that through the gull and bitterness of their own hearts, did so far lose their Tastes and Judgments, that their whole practise was to deprive God of His Glory, the Prince of His Honour, and the People of their Senses; affirming that the condition of England was very miserable, and full of the Tokens of Gods wrath and indignation; when the whole Nation was happy even to the envy of christendom. And no wonder if you meet with some of that ill conditioned Race at this day. I confess that I have met with some, who having heard or red of the causeless complaints made by factious spirits, and discontented people against the last King, do now begin to tread the same steps, railing against the Kings Court, slandering the Government and Governours, like railing Rabsheka's, and foul-mouthed Shimeis: They are zealous in procuring a Divorce between their Sovereign and His Subjects hearts and affections; whereas true Christianity, and true Allegiance, doth instruct and oblige every Subject to be more careful of His Sovereigns Credit and Honour, then of his own, and with the two modest sons of Noah, no sooner to know then to hid their fathers nakedness. It is very true, Hans, that there is no Government on earth perfect, nor are Governours without human infirmities; and there is no time but it hath something more laudable, then the foregoing or succeeding times. But if any one will seriously reflect on the whole Twelve years Reign of our Dread Sovereign now Reigning. I dare affirm,( without the least flattery) that he shall hardly find in the like space of time, in any other Princes Reign, either at home or abroad, so great plenty and abundance of all things, for the use or delight of mankind, so vast an increase of Buildings, so many stately Palaces, fair Churches, mighty Ships of War; so great improvement of Lands in all places, both Arable and Pasture; so many Plantations of Trees, both for Fruit and Timber; Parks and Forrests new stored with the best Venison in the world; mighty Plantations abroad, new Inventions and handicrafts, indeed all Arts and Sciences, improved at home; old Inventions daily bettered, Rivers made Navigable, new Fortresses and Havens, both at home and and abroad, and those made far more commodious by mighty Moles and peers. Moreover he shall hardly find so long a time so free from Injustice, or from Oppression, where King and Nobles have less oppressed the Commons, where there hath been so great Condescensions and Indulgences to tender Consciences: and if it be true, that as multa funera sunt opprobria Medicorum, so multa supplicia sunt opprobria Principum. It will be much for the Honour of His Majesty, and His twelve years Government, that here have not been one Nobleman put to death, and so few of others at all the Assizes in this Kingdom, that the like was never known in the memory of any man living; and yet such impartial Justice every where, that we have fewer Robberies, Murders, Duels, then ever. Besides all this, there is nothing more true, that since His Majesties Restauration, all people generally over all England, both in Cities, Towns, and Villages, dwell in fairer Houses, those Houses are more richly furnished; Men and Women are more costly clothed, eat and drink better, then any of their forefathers of the same quality and condition, and perhaps then any other Nation at this day under the Sun.  H. 
Good George, proceed no farther; your people would be too happy, if they knew their own happiness.  G. 
But prithee, Hans, what dost thou hear our Nonconformists, and such malcontents, say of our Bishops; for you  told me they murmured against Aaron as well as Moses.  H. 
Not much, George, but somewhat heavy; for they say, your Bishops, and other Dignified Clergy, are Idle and Idol-shepherds; that they are covetous, dumb Dogs, &c.  G. 
This is a heavy charge indeed, but do you believe any of this to be true?  H. 
Truly very little, for I have had the honour to be acquainted with divers of them, and I have always found them well employed about their Charge; so free from Idolatry, that to an impartial Judge, who hath seen other Reformed Churches abroad, there is scarce any Church in christendom, but gives as much occasion of scandal that way: Then as for Covetousness, I can say so much, that all those whom I know, do keep so good Hospitality, are so charitable to the Poor, that I am confident, very few of them will be able to leave to their Children or Relations so much as one of the meanest Lawyers, Merchants, or Gentlemen of this Kingdom: But as to that charge of Dumb Dogs, I know not well what to say; for I think they preach but seldom, and therefore seem not to deserve so much means.  G. 
Truly, Hans, I was once of that mind too, till I well considered, First, That it is not now amongst us, as it was in the Primitive times; for those Christians lived in the midst of Jews, Heathens, and Infidels to whom it was necessary, that the Gospel, or glad Tidings of Christs being come in the Flesh to redeem the world( which is properly the Gospel) should upon all occasions be proclaimed( for that is properly preaching the Gospel, and not our manner of making of Harangues in a Pulpit) in all places amongst the Jews and Gentiles.  
Secondly, That there were then but a small number of Learned Divines, who were well able to argue the case, and convince Unbelievers of this Truth.  
Thirdly, The number of Souls under each Bishop were not then so many, but that a Bishop might with ease both Govern and Teach the people.  
Fourthly, That now the number of Teachers, and the several Congregations and Churches under the Bishops care, are so many, that it is become enough to be the Task-master, to have onely a due care, that the inferior Clergy duly Preach, and perform rightly their duties in their several Congregations.  H. 
But then is it not unreasonable, that those who seem to sit still, should have so much means, and those that sweat and bear the heat of the day, I mean those that Preach, should have so little?  G. 
Why you have been at Sea, Hans, where you have seen many Sea-men pull at the Ropes, hazard their lives in trimming the Ship, sweat and take great pains; whilst the long-experienced sober wise Pilot sits still at the Helm, considering the Ships Course, comparing that with the Winds and Tides, with the Season of the Year; the Flats and Shelves, the Sands and Rocks, the Pirates and Enemies, &c. without whose constant Conduct( notwithstanding all the others toil and pains) the Ship would not be safe perhaps one hour: Will you now say, that it is unreasonable, that this man should have a better Salary, then any of those other labouring Mariners?  H. 
Truly, George, your Simile is so apposite, that I shall never more give ear to these barking Curs; but on the contrary shall love and honour those whom they so undutifully and impiously style Dumb Dogs.  G. 
Besides, all wise men know, that as it is very dangerous for a Pilot to quit the Helm, and pull at the Ropes, so it hath been oft seen, that where a Bishop of a large diocese hath been very Bookish, and oft in the Pulpit, that diocese hath most usually been worst governed.  
But, Hans, what should we trouble ourselves longer upon this subject; for I have observed, that in all this Kingdom, there are scarce any, but either some ill-natured and ill-nurtur'd Gentry, or else some half-learned or half-witted Commonalty, who will open their mouths against our Bishops or Clergy.  H. 
But, George, here's a War begun, you say, upon your Kings Credit: but where's the Money to carry it on?  G. 
You do not consider, Hans, that it is the Peoples War as well as the King, and they'l never want money to preserve themselves. Can you imagine, that when the Parliament comes together again, they will not immediately take His Majesties Supply into consideration. A Prince who by His infinite care of the grand Interest of this Nation( which I  told you before is the Dominion of the Sea) hath so far obliged all His Subjects, as His majesty hath done above and beyond His Predecessors, who ought to have undertaken this work, of stoping the prodigious growth of the Hollander in their Reigns, when it was far more feasible.  H. 
But I hear some say, It is almost impossible to raise such a Sum at this time.  G. 
Good Hans, you will say these men are very short-sighted that tell you so, when I shall have shewed you, how above two millions yearly may easily be raised in England, without ever grieving the people; which is a piece of Policy that I learned in your country, when I lived there.  H. 
I pray how is that?  G. 
Not by Land-tax, or House-tax, or Hearth-money, or Poll-money, or by any other way where Money is taken from the People in the Lump, for that is ever very grievous unto them, as an old wise States-man in Holland once  told me, that they had several times found by woeful experience.  H. 
How then?  G. 
In good faith onely by small Excises, and that first upon such Commodities that naturally occasion Excess, Luxury, Pride, Wantonness, Idleness, or corruption of Manners; as upon Wines, and all strong Drinks; upon Sugars, Spices, Sauces, Raisins, Currans, and all sorts of Sweet meats; then upon all sorts of Laces, Ribbons, Silks, and fine Linen; upon Cards, Dice, Tables; upon Coaches, Sedans; upon all sorts of Jewels, Fans, Feathers, Perywigs, Pictures, Looking-glasses, Plate, and Hangings. And in case such as these will not raise enough, then to lay a small Excise upon some few of those Commodities, that are most generally and most constantly used; as upon all Butchers meat, Bread, Butter, Cheese, Salt, Candles, &c.  H. 
O Heer, have you all these Commodities Unexcised, and suffer your King to want money? when as almost all the Kingdoms and States in Europe have Excised all of them, and as many more; when as in our Seven Provinces, which have not half so many people as England, we have for many years raised above Sixteen hundred thousand pound Sterling out of those Commodities, and yet no man complains, but all grow rich.  G. 
I pray, Hans, do me the favour to inform me, by what Rules you lay your Excises there: for I know, that in the late long Wars with Spain, you were put to all the shifts imaginable of raising Moneys the most commodest and best way.  H. 
It is very true, George; and I remember, that once we were so put to our shifts, that having laid so high an Excise as would be born upon all sorts of Commodities, that were to be bought and sold, which I believe are almost 200. we yet wanted money to carry on the War against the Spaniard, who then pressed us sore; whereupon our Lords States General proposed a very considerable sum of money to any one who could invent a way to raise a considerable Standing Revenue, without grieving the people; and an honest Minister of Harlem thereupon invented( by a kind of inspiration I think) that admirable Tax of Sealed Paper, which our Adversary soon made use of in Spain, and since many other Countreys have done the like; the manner of which Tax I shall relate to you at some other time, and will now tell you by what Rules we lay our Excises.  G. 
That was the thing I chiefly desired.  H. 
You must know then, that as Excises are the most equal, and less grievous Tax of all other, so the main rule in raising them is, that you may charge any Commodity so high, as you do no way hinder the consumption of that Commodity: as for example, Who would ever use the less Sugar, if one penny Excise were paid out of 12 pennyworth? Who would use the fewer Ribbons, for 2 d. Excise upon every 12 d? Who would play the less at Cards or Dice, if 3 d. were paid out of 12 d? What Lady would ever forbear to wear Pearls or Diamonds, or to buy Fans and Looking-glasses, if 4 d. were laid upon every 12 d? Who would forbear to keep a Coach for 5 l. Excise per annum? So if there were 6 d. upon every ounce of Plate, who would use the less in his house?  
Now if these and such like Excises will not serve to discharge the public Debts and expenses of the Crown, without an Excise upon those other more necessary Commodities, as Flesh, Butter, and Cheese, &c. who would spend the less of them in his house, if there were laid upon every pound but a half penny, or upon a pound of Candles a penny.  G. 
But then, Hans, me-thinks that will not raise any considerable sum.  H. 
You cannot at first sight imagine what great sums they would raise. I remember, once taking notice by chance of the great number of Candles, burnt in the Shops and Houses of this your City and Suburbs of London, I with some other informed ourselves of the number of Families, and at length found, that one penny Excise upon a pound of Candles, would amount to at least eighty thousand pounds in a year; and yet your Chandlers are suffered sometimes to raise their prizes as much at their own pleasure, and no man regards it. So likewise your Cole-mongers are permitted to raise their Coals, sometimes 10 s. in a cauldron at their own pleasure; and others to raise Soap a penny in the pound, &c. Will any one then grudge so much to be taxed upon any of those Commodities towards the public Charges of the kingdom? Certainly he must be a malignant ill-natured Subject that will do it. But I know a better way then all these, in my opinion, to raise a very considerable sum of money, and even pleasure the people thereby.  G. 
In good faith, Hans, you might thereby much oblige our King and all His People; especially at this time, when there is so great need of money to pay public Debts, and to defray the vast Charges of our Naval and Land Forces, of our many Garrisons, Guards, &c. Charges far above and beyond any that His Majesties Predecessors ever knew.  H. 
The way then briefly is this, We have found by long experience in Holland, that to suffer no man to brew his own Beer, hath this great benefit, that every man may drink better and cheaper then he could possibly do, if he brewed it himself. And I have been certainly informed, that not onely the Londoners, but also most of the Villages within ten or twenty miles of London, now choose rather to buy their Beer of the public Brewers thereabouts, and pay Excise, then to trouble themselves to brew at home, though then it should be free from all Excise. Now if there were an Act of Parliament for setting up Brew-houses in all or most of the Market-Towns of England, and that no place within a mile or two of those Market-Towns should be suffered to Brew their own Beer, but to take it of those Brewers, as all our Dorps do in Holland; the ordinary Excise upon all that Beer brewed then by those public Brewers, would by computation amount to near 300000 l. a year, more then what the Excise of Beer and Ale now comes to in England.  G. 
I would to God, Hans, you were able to convince our Parliament-men of the commodiousness of Excises, it might be much more happy for King and People then other Taxes; as the last Subsidy, where the People were discontented in paying but so much in the Lump, and the King had reason to be more discontented that many paid not one moiety of what they ought to have paid. But one thing more, Hans, I would gladly learn of you, and that is, The right way of Collecting Excises, that the Subjects may not be much disturbed and abused, and yet the King not defrauded of His Due.  H. 
O younker George, that is a great Mystery, and there is much Art and Prudence to be used therein: my countrymen on the other side of the Sea were many years, before they could arrive to that perfection and skill, which they now have above all other Nations. This I know, that some Excises they always take in kind, and Collect by Officers of the State; others they always Let to Farm: But if you will learn the right way, you need but sand over some understanding man, who staying there but so long, as a Bill is usually passing in both Houses of Parliament, at his return will be able to teach you in an hour, that which did cost us many years experience, with much trouble and pains. So my good younker George, Adieu for this time, I must leave you.  G. 
Farewell, honest Hans; I thank you for your good company, and shall be very glad that we may meet shortly again, and have further discourse of these Affairs.  
FINIS.