Aug. l. 18. de civ. Dei c. 20. Roma est altera Babylon, & prioris filia. Babylon was the first Rome, and Rome is (as it were) the second Babylon. Apoc. 18. 7. Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.    

Roma Ruens, Rome's ruin: Being A succinct ANSWER To A POPISH CHALLENGE, Concerning The antiquity, unity, universality, succession, and perpetual visibility of the true Church, even in the most obscure times, when it seemed to be totally eclipsed, in the immediate ages before LUTHER.  
By DANIEL FEATLEY, D. D.  MIC. 7. 8. 
Rejoice not against me O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me.  Leo Se●m. in natal. Petri & Pauli. 
Non ●inuitur persecutionibus ecclesia dei, sed augetur magis.  
Ager dominicus segete ditiore vestitur, dum grana, quae singula cadunt, multiplicata nascuntur.  Theod. comment. in epist.. ad Philippen. 
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  
LONDON, Printed by Thomas Purslow, for Nicholas Bourne, at the South entrance of the royal Exchange. 1644.   

PErlegi hunc polemicum tractatum, cui titulus est Romes Ruine; atque, ut valde doctum & nervosum, dignum censeo, qui prelo mandetur.  
Johannes Downame.   

A Table of the special contents.  

I. THe Popish Challenge.  
II. The preface to the Reader, wherein the main and principal question concerning the visibility of the Church is stated, and determined according to scriptures.  
III. The answer to the Challenge.   

Paragraph. I. Concerning the name Catholic. p. 1  
Para. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian saith, one true, divine and infallible. p. 3  
III. That divine faith is confined to the written word of God, and is unchangeable p. 5  
IV. Touching the propagation of the christian Faith to all ages by pastors and teachers lawfully sent. p. 8  
V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true Church. p. 7  
VI. That the true church was never simply invisible, nor so obscure, but that it had true professors known to the members thereof, though often invisible to the adversaries. p. 12  
VII. That the Roman Church, that is, a Church holding the present Romish Trent-faith, hath not been always visible. p. 13  
VIII. That the Roman Church neither hath been nor is at this day Catholic, viz. universal. p. 16  
Ix.. That the Roman Church hath not had an uninterrupted succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles p. 17  
X. That the Roman Church hath not the pretended mark of unity, and that Papists differ among themselves in many substantial points of faith particularly mentioned p. ●●  
XI. That the Roman Church is not truly an apostolical church, much less the only apostolical church, out of which there is no salvation. p. 26  
XII. That amplitude and eminent visibility are no marks of the true Church, and obiter of the large bounds of the greek church. pa. 27  
XIII. Where the true Church was when the Roman fell from her first faith. p. 30  
XIV. Where, and who were the true professors of the reformed Religion, in the immediate age before Luther. p. 32  
XV. That Questions de fide cannot be determined by mere human stories. p. 37  
XVI. That all who make not open profession of faith in time of persecution, are not to be condemned for hypocrites. p. 39  
XVII. Of the first conversion of the english nation to the Christian faith. p. 40  
XVIII. Of the faith of Gregory the great; and that for substance it was the same that we profess at this day, is proved by instance in 12 main points of difference between the reformed and the present Roman Church. p. 43  
XIX. Of the faith of Constantine the great, and that the church in his days maintained the same doctrine with us, is proved by the testimonies of the doctors of the Church, who flourished in that age. p. 50    

Indiculus authorum.  

A.  
G. Abbot.  
Abulensis.  
Adrianus.  
AEneas Silvius.  
Alfonsus a Castro.  
Almain.  
Alvarez.  
Ambrose Med.  
Anastasius.  
Andradius.  
T. Aquinas.  
Athanasius.  
Augustinus.   

B.  
Barclayus.  
C. Baronius.  
Basilius' mag.  
Beda.  
Bellarminus.  
Benno Card.  
Berengarius.  
Bertram.  
Bilson.  
Birbeck.  
Bonaventura.  
M. Bucerus.   

C.  
Cajetanus.  
Canus.  
Capito.  
Catharinus.  
Chrysostomus.  
I. Cocleus.  
Constantinus.  
Contarenus.  
Curopalata.  
Cyprianus.  
Cyrillus Hieros.   

D.  
Damasus.  
Dicetus.  
Dionysius' Ar●op.  
Driedo.   

E.  
Elfricus.  
S. Ephrem.  
Epiphanius.  
Erasmus.  
Eusebius.   

F.  
Fabritius.  
Ferus.  
Field.  
Fisherus.  
Fox.  
Fulgosus.   

G  
R. Gallus.  
Genebrardus.  
Gerardus.  
Gerson.  
Gildas.  
Glaber Rodolphus.  
Gratianus.  
Gregorius M.  
Gretserus Ies.   

H.  
M. Hart.  
Helvicus.  
Hieronymus.  
Hilarius. P.  
Homerus.  
Hugo de sanct. vict.  
L. Humphredus.  
I. Huz.   

I.  
Jacobus Christop.  
T. Jamesius.  
Ignatius.  
Illyricus Fl..  
Innocenti●s.  
Joachimus. Ab.  
Joachimus. Ca.  
Jonas Aurel.  
Irenaus.  
Invenalis.   

L.  
Lactantius.  
Lambertus Geasomb.  
P. Lombardus.  
Luitprandus.  
Lucius Tudensis.  
I. Lidius.   

M.  
Macarius' Aegy?  
Mantuanus.  
Marselius P.  
Martialis.  
Martinus Luther.  
Ph. Melancthon.  
Minutius felix.  
Metrophnes' Crit.  
P. Molineus.   

N.  
Nazianzenus.  
G. Ne●●rionsis.  
Nioephorus.  
Nicetas Abbas.   

O.  
G. Occa●.  
Orthwinus.  
Osiander.   

P.  
Pacianus.  
Parsonus Ies.  
Pellicanus.  
Petrus de Alliac●.  
Photius.  
Al. Pighius.  
Plichdor●ius.  
M. Polonus.  
Pontanus.  
H. Pragensis.  
S. Prosper.   

Q.  
Quir●ga Card.   

R.  
Rainerius.  
I. Rai●oldus.  
Rhemist.  
Roffenfis.   

S.  
Salvia●●s.  
Scotus, Dans, Erig●●.  
Sigebertus.  
Sigonius.  
Sisselius.  
Socrates hist.  
D. Seto.  
Stella.  
Suarez.  
Sulpitius Severus   

T.  
R. Tapperus.  
Tertullianus.  
Theodoretus.  
Theophilus Alex.  
C. Turrecremata.   

V.  
Vasquez.  
Vbertinus a Casa●s.  
Vignierus.  
Virgilius.  
Vortleg.  
Vsherus.   

W.  
Wesselus' groaning.  
G. Whitakerus.  
F. White.  
Wi●●lius.  
Widdrin●●nus.  
Wimpina.  
I. W●l●ius.    

THE CHALLENGE.  
WE Catholics say, that there is always one, and but one true, divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ, without which none can please God, nor attain to salvation: this one true faith generally preached through the world was not to cease with the Apostles and their immediate hearers, but was by Christ's promise to continue unchanged to the world's end. For so 'tis said (Mat. ult.) behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world: and John 14. The holy Ghost whom my Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.  
This divine truth once established, to the end it might continue, was to be derived to posterity; not by angels sent to teach particular persons, nor by illuminated brethren of Amsterdam still pretending new light, but by a continued succession of known visible pastors, and bishops lawfully ordained and sent to preach it perpetually, in despite of all new sectaries and novellers whatsoever. Whence, we say, it followeth, that not for six hundred years only, as many protestants grant, there was a true church free from spot of error, but likewise in all ages following there ever was and must be such a church, in the union whereof all sorts might be saved.  
For to say (as some protestants do) the church was long invisible (besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old Testament) it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation, whilst he seeketh not the true church, with which to jown hands; and amongst christians this invisibility supposed, it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments. We then affirm, and let our adversaries disprove it if they can, that the Roman church hath been always visible.  
We affirm that the Roman church hath been always Catholic, viz. universal.  
The Romish church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles, still teaching the same unchanged doctrine, in all substantial points of faith.  
All which going together, and being only found in her, and no other church, do evidently prove that she alone is truly apostolical, and consequently out of her there neither is nor can be salvation.  
To disprove us herein, we require that a protestant church with these marks may be showed to have been always extant.  
Or, if they cannot do this (as we well know they cannot) let them labour to assign us another Catholic church, distinct from the Roman, when she, as they falsely suppose, fell from the first truth?  
Or at least they must show us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther began, in what city, town, or country they dwelled, and what writers speak of them which lived before our times.  
If they cannot satisfy us in any of these demands, in which alone we offer to join issue with them, then do we think the day to be ours: if they can name any who did both believe and profess the protestant doctrine in all points, let them do it, and then, if we do not disprove them, the day is theirs. And seeing all is brought to this issue, we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point, and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto, we shall account it impertinent, and unworthy reply, as not direct to our purpose, which is to find out the true Catholic and visible church.  
Ridiculous it is to answer, as some do, that there were true believing protestants when Luther began, but durst not for fear of fire profess their faith: this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all, but to be a dissembling company of such, as were neither hot nor cold; Christ saying of such, he that denyeth me before men, I will deny him before my father in heaven.  
Or if your men fly this difficulty, we will join issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion into which we Englishmen were first converted by Austin a monk, a man of God sent by Gregory the great, bishop of Rome, more than a thousand years since: a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven, and therefore must needs be true, and never noted to differ from the common received faith of Christendom in those days, as appeareth by the several epistles of the said S. Gregory, to the bishops of Europe, Asia, and Africa, with all whom he held communion of faith, so as if Christ had a Catholic church upon earth, as needs he must, S. Gregory was of it; and it then being a true church, we say (holding still the same ●enets) it must needs be so now, God's truthbeing, like unto himself, without change: and therefore if an angel should come from heaven to teach us any other doctrine than we first received, we are not to hear him, the good seed being ever first sowed, and the Galathians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul, for not constantly retaining their first planted faith.  
Or lastly, if you desire to go nearer to the times of the apo●●les, we will join with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great, who first built and opened christian churches; and gave freedom for christians to come together, and to know and publish to the world what was held by them, which before could not so well be done by reason of the great persecutions, in which the church had been till then generally eclipsed.  
Finis.   

The PREFACE to the ensuing ANSWER.  
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, To the unknown reader.  
BE not offended (courteous reader) at the epithet I give thee. For I call him to witness whom the schools rightly term primam veritatem, that I am, in respect of my present condition, to seek a man of quality and authority, to whom wronged truth may fly for succour and shelter. Albeit the ensigns are every where displayed for the defence of the true protestant religion, for which both sides engage their persons and estates: yet upon exact search it will be found that the flags and streamers lately in Ireland, and now also in England are died with protestant blood.  
And for myself in particular, though in the former Halcyou days of peace I could scarce name more persons of worth and quality, than patrons of my weak endeavours against the common adversary: yet now I may truly say with Gregory the divine, epist. 31. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Notwithstanding a● Cynegyrus in a sea-fight against the Persians, after his weapons were wrested from him, caught hold on the ship with his right hand; and when that was cut off, with his left hand; and after both, with his teeth: & as Crassus the famous orator, when Philip the consul sorely threatened 
Cic ter●de eratnon tibi illa sunt caedenda si Crassum vis coercere, haectibi est ●x●id●●da lingua, qua vel ●vulsa, spiritu ipso libidinem tuam liber●●s mea refuta●i●.  him for speaking so freely for the liberty of the senate, answered like a true Roman senator, if thou wilt have me hold my peace in so good a cause, thou must cut out my tongue, which after thou hast plucked out, with my very breath my liberty shall resute and confound thy tyrannical humour and proud insolence: in like manner, though I have lost both libras and libros, all means of livelihood and liberty too: yet I will never be wanting in the defence of God's truth against Romish Idolatry and tyrannis, while I have a hand to write, or a tongue to speak; 
dum memor ipse mei, dum spiritus hos regit artus.   
Having therefore received a challenge from a Romanist (whose name I know not) who defieth the host of the living God, and like 
Iliad 3.  Paris in Homer, 
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  hath demanded a duel, a single combat with any that dare to enter into the l●sts with him in the quarrel of the Romish church: I could not contain myself, though restrained at the present, and unfurnished of my choicest weapons: but accepting of the challenge I have met with him in the field pitched by himself, I mean, the controversy touching the perpetual visibility of the true church, and other difficult questions, both historical and theological, depending thereon. Now because our Romish adversaries conceive that they have most advantage in this dispute of all other, and therefore seek to reduce all questions to it (as you hear in the challenge) I hold it fit, in this proamble to the ensuing encounter, exactly to state it and set it upon its true bases.  
In this question touching the visibility of the Catholic Church three terms are to be explicated.  

1. Church.  
2. Catholic.  
3. Visible.   
First church: by church we understand not a particular congregation or company confined to one certain place, parish, city, or country; for such a particular Church is not always visible. Where there have been visible professors in many famous cities, and countries, there are few or none now; and where there were none before, as in divers parts of America, there are visible churches now. The can●lesticks follow the light, and when the light, that is, the preaching of the gospel is removed, the congregations, that is, the candlesticks are also removed; and from what c●y or country soever both are translated, there is darkness, and in darkness no visibility.  
Secondly, Catholic is taken in a double sense, logical, and theological: logical, for a generic all notion of a church which is predicated of every particular church, tanquam genus de specie, as when we say the Greek or the Latin is a christian church. In this sense church is the object of the understanding, not of the sense; and Catholic so taken is intelligible, not sensible or visible. For, universalia (qua talia) non cadunt sub sensum. Secondly theological, for the whole company of all that are called to the knowledge of the truth, and outward means of salvation by Christ, having God's word and ordinances among them. The Catholic church so taken is spread over the face of the whole earth, and though not in the whole lump, yet in every part and parcel thereof is visible, so long as that part and parcel continueth a member or portion of the Catholic church; and though some members, like branches of the golden tree in the poet, be cut off or wither, yet others rise up in their places, or upon some other boughs or arms of that great tree.  
Thirdly visible, when we say the Catholic church in a theological notion is visible, we mean in respect of outward profession of faith, and public use of sacraments common to all christians, not in respect of the inward grace of the spirit and proper marks of the elect; for so it is not object to sense. Those marks are like the white-stone in the Apocalypse, which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it, and 
Apoc. 2. 17.  in this notion the whole company of the elect is by our divines called the invisible church: not that the elect in it are not seen, but because this cannot be seen or known by sense that they are elect. A child seeth a shining stone, which is a diamond, topaz, or some precious gem; but he knoweth it not to be a true jewel: all men knew Nathaniel to be an Israelite, but our Saviour only, the beams of whose eyes pierced into the hidden corners of his heart, could say, behold, a true Israelite in whom there is no guil. 
Ioh. 1. 47.   
That a man is a true Israelite, that is, hath true faith, is a matter of faith; and the Catholic church taken for a company of such as they are such, is an article of our creed: credo sanctam ecclesiam catholicam, I believe there is such a holy Catholic church, but neither I nor any man else can discover it to be such by sense. Yet to avoid all mistaking, the church we believe in the creed is not a distinct church from that which we see in the several and particular members thereof. For the elect which make the invisible church, are in the visible as the soul is in the body, or a diamond in a ring, or the apple in the eye, or gold in the oar: and we may properly call them the church of the church, as Demosthenes▪ called Athens the Greece of Greece and Cicero Leontium the Sicily of Sicily.  
Of the Catholic church, as it is invisible, we dispute not now; but as it is in the parts and members thereof visible: and our question is rather de modo than de re, not whether the church be always visible, but how far it is visible, and whether such visibility be a proper and inseparable note thereof. We acknowledge there hath been and ever will be a true church visible, but not always eminent; conspicuous, but not always illustrious: known, but not always nutorio●s: fair and specious, but not always pompous and glorious. For what show could a church make when it consisted but in Abel, and 
Aug. in Psal. 125.  he was murdered? and afterwards in Enoch, and he was taken from the company of men to walk with God? or at the death of our Saviour, when, as Alen●●s reacheth, the true faith remained only in the blessed virgin, and one candle alone left on Easter evening burning, after all the other are put out, in the Roman Church implieth as much, if we may believe the interpreters of that ceremony? Certainly the Church was brought to a low ebb when the deluge overflowed the whole world, and only eight persons were preserved in the ark, and it is a question whether all of them were eternally saved. I am sure, one of them, namely Cham was cursed of God. Show me the glorious lustre of a visible church in the days of the patriarchs pilgrimage in Mesopotamia, or their posterities bondage in Egypt, or captivity in Babylon, in which sad times they who lived and belonged to the true church sighed to God often in private, but were not suffered to pray to him in public: they lif●ed up their hearts no doubt continually, but not their hands, they were so straightly manacled: they often looked towards the holy city, and the place where God's honour dwelled, but they could not stir their foot towards it, for they were fettered. All their sacrifices they could then offer were their broken and contrite hearts, and their sweetest incense their burning desires, and their drink offerings their tears, which they poured out by the waters of Babylon, and made them waters of Marah, salt and bitter. No marvel that the spouse of Christ hid herself in a strange land, and then covered her face, when it was swollen with grief and blubbered with tears; but did she ever so in her own country and kingdom. Did she ever wear a mask in Judah and Israel? Did she ever there shut up herself in her closet, and water her plants? Certainly she did, as we read 2 Chro. 15. 3. Now for a long season Israel had been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without the law: but when they in their trouble did turn to the Lord God of Israel and sought him, he was found of them. v. 5. and in those times there was no peace to him that went out, not to him that came in, but great vexations were upon all the inhabitants of the countries.  
What face of a church was to be seen in the days of Elijah, who maketh this grievous complaint against Israel? 1 King. 19 10. The children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altats, and slain thy prophets with the sword, and I, even I only am left, and they seek my life to take it away. I suppose, a clearer evidence of the latency and obscurity of the church cannot be brought. Yet our Rhemists and Romanists seek to avoid it, by laying the whole blame upon the ten tribes of Israel, and clearing Judah. But it is too manifest by the reformation of Ezekiah, 2 King. 18. 4. and Josiah 2. King. 22. 23. and the judgement of God upon Manasses, 2 King. 24. 3. that Judah was partaker with Israel, and therefore both are alike charged by the spirit of God, 2 King. 17. 13. Yet the Lord testified against Israel and against Judah by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, turn you from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, v. 14. notwithstanding they would not hear, nor obey, but hardened their necks, like to the necks of their fathers, v. 16. they made molten images, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal, v. 19 also Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the sta●…es of Israel which they made: therefore the Lord cast away all the seed of Israel and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hands of spoilers, and carried them into the land Ashur, where according to the prophecy of Hosea, c. 3. 4. the children of Israel abode many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, without an Ephod and without a Teraphim. A sad text to comment upon, no king, no priest, no sceptre, no censer, no throne of David, no chair of Moses, no court, no temple. Where was now the glorious hierarchy our adversaries dream of, where was the reverend assembly of prelates, the numerous congregations of people, the solemn feasts, the stately processions, the rich furniture, and pompous ceremonies, and glittering shows which make the lustre of such a church as they would have? Where was now the city set upon a hill that cannot be hid, the tabernacle piched in the sun?  
At this time, and afterwards in the days of Jeremy, and Ezekiel, and likewise after the death of our Saviour, during first the ten 
Aug. epist. 88 quae aliquando obscuratur & obnubilatur scandalorum multitudine.  persecutions of the church by the heathen Emperors, and in the middle by the Arian, and last of all by antichristian princes and states, the true church was more like to the moon than the sun, which is ofttimes in the wane, sometimes in a partial, and sometimes also in a total eclipse; and true believers are compared to the sands which are by the sea shore, and appear innumerable in calm and fair weather, but in trouble some times, as it were in a rough sea, tribulationum & tentationum fluctibus operiuntur, atque turbantur, not a sand is to be seen. Such times have been, and we are to expect no better in the lees of time, and latter days. For than many false prophets shall arise and deceive many, Mat. 24. 11. and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold: there shall be a falling away, or a general apostasy from the christian faith, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition: and the tail of the dragon shall draw the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to 
Apoc. 12. 12.  the earth, and the devil shall rage the more, by how much his time is shorter: and the dragon shall give power unto the beast, and he 
Apoc, 13. 4. 7. 8.  shall make war with the saints, and overcome them, and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life. When iniquity getteth the upper hand, and antichrist shall be in his highest elevation, shall the son of man than find faith upon the earth? that is, as the Romish commentators themselves 
Luk. 18. 8. Ep 88 ecclesia est sol, luna & stellae: quando sol obscurabitur & luna non dabit lucem suam & stellae cadent de coelo, ecclesia non apparebit, impiis eam ultra modum persequentibus.  expound the word, any public outward profession of faith, any beauty of holiness, or appearance of a christian church? S. Augustine resolveth negatively; by the sun, moon, and stars, the church, in regard of her clearest lights and eminent professors, is understood, when the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, the church shall not appear, wicked men persecuting her above measure. Against which times the Lord arm, and prepare his dearest servants that love the truth in sincerity.  
Aldersgate London, from prison in Peter-house, August the first 1644. Thine in the Lord Jesus, D. F.   

AN ANSWER TO A POPISH CHALLENGE, Touching the antiquity and visibility of the true church, and other questions depending thereon.  

PARAGRAPH. I. Concerning the name Catholic.  

CHALLENGE.  
We Catholics say, &c.   

Answer.  
IF I mistake not in my guess, you seem to be some mendicant friar, and according to that profession you begin with begging; for in the very first words you beg the main point in question; to wit, that you are catholics, saying, We Catholics; prove yourselves to be so, and then speak so; win the name and bear it; mean while, say not, we Catholics, but we papists; or, if you have a months' mind to the name Catholic, qualify it, and allay it with your distinctive term Roman, and speak as your fellows do, we of the 
* Papists call themselves Catholic romans, as the followers of Andias' the heretic called themselves Christiani Andiani, Christians Andians. Epiph l. 3. heres. 70. Aug cont ep. Manic. c. 4. haretici se catholicos dici volunt. Salv de guber. dei l 6 apud nos sunt hareretici, apud se non sunt, nam tantum se catholicos esse judicant, ut nos ipsos titulo hereticae appellationis infament.  Catholic Roman church, that is, we of the universal particular church; for, if Catholic be universal, surely roman is particular. Or rather, say not, we Catholics say, but we say that we are catholics, for this hath been the say of all heretics and schismatics. The Arrians, saith Salvianus (and all other misbelievers) are heretics in our account, but not in their own. nay they so far over w●●n themselves Catholics, that they stick not to def●… us who are truly, Catholics with the title and brand of heretics. As S●… Magus styled himself the great power of God; 
Theod. hist. Trip {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  and Jezabel called herself a prophetess; and Nestorius, a notorious heretic covered himself with a veil of an orthodox professor; and the Turks, though it appear out of all stories that they came from Hagar the bond-●o●●n and are truly Hagar●ns, yet give themselves the names of 〈◊〉: so you papists generally, though you are a medley or cento of many heretics, both ancient and latter, yet you voice yourselves catholics, and your own testimony 
Whitaker. Append to his book of the church Rivet. prof to his cathol. orthodox The Church dispersed over the whole earth. Vin Ly●… cont. ●aret Arrian●… venenum ja● non por●●●nculam quandam, sed pene orbem totum contaminaverat; a●●●●t prope cunctis latinis episcop●s, partim v●, partim ●●aude deceptis caligo quadam mentibus offunderetur.  is the best, if not the only plea you have to that title. For if any other, whom you have not taught to speak, give you that title, it is out os ignorance, or in derision, as the Athenians made a decree to deign Alexander, quia Alexander vult esse deus, sit Deus; because Alexander will be a god, let him be a god. The term Catholic cannot be taken but in one of these two senses, either properly for universal, and so it is opposed to particular: or improperly, for orthodoxal, and so it is opposed to heretical, or schismatical. When this epithere is applied to the church, it is taken in the first sense {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, supple {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}; but when it is applied to faith, it is for the most part taken in the latter sense as in the creed of Athanasius, whosoever will be saved must hold the Catholic faith; that is, the orthodox faith which he there setteth down: for at that time when he wrote, that creed of his was not Catholic in the first sense, that is generally and u●●versally received, if that be true which Vincentius writeth, the p●…son of the Arrians did not infect only a portion of the church, but 〈◊〉 a manner ●ain●ed the whole world, insomuch that almost all the la●●n bishops being surprised by fraud or by force had a mist cast before their eyes. In neither of these two senses of the word can either your church, or your faith, or your persons be termed Catholic. Not your church, for Dr. Reynolds hath long ago demonstrated in his second Thesis, tha●… present Roman church is neither the 
Ep. 1. ad Sy●pron christiaanus mihi nomen est, catholicus cognomen● illud me nuncupat, istud ostendit: hoc probor, inde signi●….  Catholic church of Christ, nor a sound member thereof: not your faith; for that, as I said before, (so far as it differs from ours) is patched up of many heresies: not your persons, for they are singular, or individual, and therefore cannot be catholics, that is, ●●iversall. Here you use to allege for yourselves a passage out of Pacianus, christian is my name, and Catholic is my surname. But what is this to you, unless you could prove that Pacianus held your Trent faith (when you prove that, I will immediately turn Roman Catholic;) till you show some affinity between your faith and his, you cannot challenge his surname Catholic. As for his meaning in this his elegant motto, christian is my name, and Catholic is my surname, he alludeth evidently to the manner of the Romans and some other nations, who used to give their children two names at least, one common, as Marcus, or Cneius, or Caius; the other proper, as Cicero, or Crassus, or Anthony, or Pompey; and the sense his words carry is this, christian is a name which I have in common with all that in any sort believe the gospel, and are neither Jews not Paynims: but Catholic is my proper name, whereby I am distinguished from divers sorts of christians, to wit, all those who profess christianity in general; yet not purely, but with mixture of some heresy, or schismatically sever themselves from the communion of the Catholic, that is, the universal church: and truly the name Catholic in his days, as also in the days of S. Austin (when the heretics were but a handful, and lurked but in corners here and there) was a distinctive term: for then the heretics in regard of their paucity could not with any colour pretend to the name Catholic, but afterwards when heresies became Catholic, that is, spread over the whole face of the church, and the orthodox christians were far fewer in number, the title Catholic ceased to be a note of distinction, and the word orthodox was used in stead thereof to distinguish true believers from all miscreants heretical or schismatical.    

PARAG. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian faith, true, divine and infallible.  

Challenge.  
That there is always one and but one true, divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ, without which none can please God, or attain to salvation, &c.   

Answer.  
When I read your preface and compared it with that which followeth, I could not but think of Oretes pots sent for a present to 
Bruson. facet. et exem. l. 1.  Polycrates, in which there was a little gold laid on the top, and under it nothing but trash; for after these two golden assertions of the unity and immutability of the true, divine and infallible faith, laid as it were in the top of your discourse, there is nothing to be found under them but lead and trash, as shall appear hereafter in the gauging it. I grant there is one, and but one true, divine and infallible faith; but you should have explicated, how but one, and in what sense. Divine and infallible faith hath been always, and is one for substance, though not for circumstance: all believers even from Adam were, though not in name, yet in truth christians, Christ and his meritorious actions and passions were the object of their faith as well as ours: but they believed in Christ to come, we in Christ that is come: we and they resemble the spies that carried the bunch of grapes on their shoulders, the former who went before looked backward, the latter who went behind looked forward on the grapes: they looked forward with the eyes of their faith on the incarnation, passion, resurrection and ascension of Christ to come, we look backward on these as past, they saw Christ in foregoing types, we in succeeding sacraments. Yea, but it may be objected, that many new articles of faith are daily declared, and many new theological conclusions found out, else how should knowledge increase? How then is the faith of the church always one? For answer hereunto I will borrow Vincentius his decision, what (saith he) is there no profiting in Christ's school? no growth 
Vine cont haeret. nullus ne ergo in ecclesia profectus? habeatur sane & maximus, sed ita tamen ut verè profectus ille fidei sit, non permutatio. Not believing it, or not in the true sense.  in faith and the knowledge of salvation? Yes, very great, but provided always that this progress be a going forward in the same way to heaven, not a turning out of the way: an improvement of faith, no change; that is, holding the same principles of faith, we may and ought daily by the studies of scriptures deduce new conclusions, but such as are virtually contained in those principles, not such as are any way repugnant to them: so long as we mutilate not our creed by disbelieving or misbelieving any article of it, and whatsoever we offer farther to be believed, we clearly and evidently conclude from scriptures, or other prime and fundamental articles of christian religion, the faith of the church is still one. Secondly, this faith is said to be divine in a threefold regard: 1. Of the object, which is God: 2. The efficient, which is the spirit of God: 3. The motive, which is the word of God, or the authority of the speaker, which is divine: and because God cannot deceive, nor be deceived, hence it followeth, that the faith which is grounded upon his word is infallible, and such is the faith of the reformed church of England, one, divine, and infallible; whereas on the contrary your romish faith is neither one, nor divine, nor infallible. Not one, for you differ one from another in many substantial points of faith, as is proved Paragraph the X. Nor divine, for the last resolution of your faith is unto the church, a company of men subject to error. Nor is it infallible, for it is partly grounded upon unwritten traditions, which vary; partly upon the decrees of Popes and counsels, which contradict one the other; the general synod held at Ariminum contradicted the first of Nice, 
Vid. infra.  in the point of Christ's deity; the council at Frankfurt contradicted the second council of Nice, in the point of images: the general council held at Lateran contradicted the general council at Basil, in the point of supremacy; and I could with a wet 
See Bilsons supremacy, par. 3. & Bellum papale.  finger produce divers decrees of Popes, out of the canon law, flat repugnant one to the other; but others have done it to my hand, and saved me this labour.    

PAR. III. Concerning the immutability of divine faith.  

Challenge.  
This one true faith, generally preached through the world, was not to cease with the Apostles and their immediate hearers, but was by Christ's promise to continue unchanged to the world's end. For so it is said, Mat. 28. 20. I am with you always unto the end of the world. Joh. 14. 26. the comforter whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.   

Answer.  
Neither of these places cometh home to prove that which you intend, viz. that the christian faith is to continue unchanged, and may not by any addition or detraction be altered. Why did you not produce to that purpose, Rev. 22. 18, 19 I testify to every man that heareth the words of the prophesic of this book if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book? and Gal. 1. 8, 9 but though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you then that which you have received, let him be accursed? Upon which words S. Austin thus paraphraseth; whether it be (saith he) concerning Christor the Church, or any thing else which belongeth to faith and our life, 
Aug. cont. lit. Pet●l l. 3. c 6. Sive de Christo sive de ecclesia, sive quacunque alia re, quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram, non di cam, si nos (nequaquam comparandi ei qui di●●it) sed si angelus de coelo vobis annunciaverit praeterquam quod in scripturis, legalibus & evangelic is accepistis, Anathema sit. Hillar. ad Costant. ●iror te, domine Constantine imperator. fidem tantum secundu● ea quae scripta sunt desiderantem. Cyril Hierosol ca●ec. 〈◊〉. nihil, ne minutum quidem sine scripturarum authoritate statuendum. Theoph. Alex. ser. 1. de Pasch. daemoniaci spiritus esset instinctus sop 〈…〉 tium sequi, aut aliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem p●●are divinum. ●as. l de 〈◊〉, manifestus est a side lapsus aliquid non scriptum inducere.  I will not say, if w●, who are not to be compared to him that said it; but if an angel from heaven preach unto you any thing besides that which you have received in the scriptures of the law and the gospel, let him be accursed. With whom accord St. Hilary, St. Cyrill, St. Theophilus of Alexandria, St. Basil, and S. Athanasius. St. Hilary, I admire thee in this, my lord Constantine, that thou requirest of us, that our faith be restrained to scriptures only. S. Cyril of Jerusalem, we may not determine or appoint any thing, no not the least, without the authority of scriptures. St. Theophilus of Alexandria, it comes from a di●ellish instinct, to follow the sophisms of me●s wits, and to conceive any thing to be divine without the authority of scriptures. St. Basil the great, it is a manifest falling away from faith to bring in (to our christian belief) any thing that it not written. And S. Athanasius, what exceeding folly is it in you, to speak things that are not written? It is the manner of Martion and other heretics, not to walk within the bounds of the gospel, but to speak out of their private fancies; and you Sabellians, walking in their steps, go about to pervert the unstable, by speaking things that are not written. But you thought fit to balk those texts of scripture with the father's glosses upon them, and deductions from them, though very pertinent to prove the immutability of our christian faith, because they have no good meaning to your unwritten traditions. As for the two texts you here allege of Saint Matthew and Saint John; they are to singular purpose, but not to yours; they are two deep wells of salvation, out of which we may draw abundance of water of comfort; for if Christ be always with us, we are always sure of protection; if his spirit will reach us all things, we shall be sure of instruction. But what is this to the imimmutability of our faith, or unvariableness of the doctrine and sacraments 
De in●…t. Christi. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}; Idem de salutari Christi adventu, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Et contra Sabell. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  of the church? God was always with the chosen of Israel under the law, and his spirit taught them all things needful to salvation; yet was the priesthood thereof changed, and the law also, and a new covenant made upon new conditions, and with new promises, & so it might be also under the gospel, if God in his word revealed in scripture had not declared the contrary, namely, Psal. 1104. the Lord swore, and will not repent, thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedeck: whence the apostle inferreth, Heb. 7. 24. this man because he continueth over, bathe an unchangeable priesthood: and 1 Cor. 11. 26. as oft as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye shall show the death of the lord till he come; that is, the second time, to wit, to judge the quick & the dead, the lords supper therefore shall continue till we are bid to the marriage supper of the lamb in heaven: and Apoc. 14. 6. I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred, and tongue, and people; if the gospel preached unto us be everlasting, no new gospel shall succeed it; and if no new gospel, no new faith. The celestial lights often turn their shadows, and give to the inhabitants of the earth divers denominations of per●scii, amphiscii and heteroscii; but with the father of light● there is no shadow of change. Jam. 1. 17. It was true before all time, and shall be after all time, when heaven and earth shall pass away, when the whole world shall be changed into a second chaos, and that chaos shall be rechanged into a new world, ego Deus non mutor, Mal. 3. 6. I am the Lord, I change not. As God is, so it his essence; and as his essence is, so are his attributes; and as his attributes are, so is his word; and as his word, so is our faith grounded upon it, immutable. Nothing is more unsteady than the needle in a dial or compass, shaking and quivering continually; yet if it be touched with a loadstone, and set to the north, it resteth unmovable; in like manner though nothing be more variable and unsteady than our assent to mysteries above reason and nature, yet if it be touched by the spirit, and fixed to the word of God, it remaineth unmovable, and the church of Christ ever holding and embracing this faith, may truly use the motto of the Phoenix of her age, Queen Elizabeth, semper eadem, always the same.    

PARAG. IV. Concerning the propagation of the christian faith to all ages, by pastors and teachers lawfully sent.  

CHALLENGE.  
This divine truth once established, to the cud it might continue, was to be derived to posterity; not by angels sent to teach particular persons, nor by illuminated brethren of Amsterdam still pretending new light, but by a continued succession of known visible pastors, and bishops lawfully ordained and sent to preach it perpetually in desp●ght of all new sectaries and novellers whatsoever.   

Answer.  
Of angels sent to particular persons, since the time of the apostles, and the fathers of the primitive church, I read nowhere but in your golden Legend; and for fanatic and fantastic spirits at Amsterdam, if any of that mad brood still remain, you well know that we build our faith no more upon these illuminated brethren of Amsterdam pretending special revelation, than upon your inspired fathers of Rome pretending infallible direction, and a kind of appropriation of the holy Ghost. The differences of the two o●●●les (both bragging of infallible assistance) is this: they are lay-p●pes, yours are clergy enthusiasts. The propagation of the christian faith to all ages, even to the end of the world, we believe by the ministry of the word established by our Lord and Saviour, when he ascended far above all heavens, that he might fill all things; and he gave 
Ephes. 4. 10. 11. 12. 13.  some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and s●●e pastors, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till 〈◊〉 all com● in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God 〈◊〉 a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. We acknowledge also, that these ministers S. Paul speaketh of, and distinguisheth by the titles of evangelists, doctors, and pastors, &c. ought to be lawfully ordained, and be visible, and known to those who belong to the true church, though not always to their bloodthirsty enemies. When our blessed Lord and Saviour fled into 
Mat. 2. 14. Rev. 12, 6. Heb. 11. 38.  Egypt, and the woman into the wilderness, and the primitive saints wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth; when S. Hilary complains against many in his time, 
Con. Aux. male vos par●●tum amor cepit; montes mihi & filvae, & solit ●dines & v●● agines sunt tutiores; in ill i● enim prophet● aut de●er si, a●● man●ntes de● spiritu prophetabant.  who were carried away with the splendour and outward pomp of the Arian clergy possessing the greatest cities and towns: you do ill (saith he) to be in love with walls: hills, and woods, and deserts, and gulfs are safer for me; for in these the prophets either drowned, or, remaining alive, prophesied by the spirit of God. In such perilous times as these, the visible pastors you speak of, kept out of the eye of the world and the walk of their enemies, and were not so known as you would seem to imply; yet did they preach the gospel in despite of antichristian opposites, (bending all their forces and banding against them) and there were added to the church daily such as should be saved.    

PARAG. V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true church, and her immunity from all fundamental' Errors in points necessary to salvation.  

Challenge.  
Whence we say it followeth, that not for six hundred years only, as many protestants grant, there was a true church free from spot of error: but likewise in all ages following there ever wa●, and must be such a church, in the union whereof all might be saved.   

Answer.  
That from the creation of the first Adam and his consort, till the coming of the second Adam to judgement, there hath been and shall continue a true church in the world, to which all that belong to Christ's kingdom may and aught to repair for the means of salvation, we doubt not. And of this church we believe, that though it consist of men subject to error, as well in doctrine as in practice: yet that it is so preserved, by the spirit of truth promised by Christ, from all fundamental errors in points necessary to salvation, that 
Io. 14. 16. 2●. &c. 16. 13.  neither the militant and visible church universally, nor any true member thereof finally, shall ever be stained with any spot of such error. But errors of less dangerous consequence which may be called pulvisculi, navuli, or aspergines, spots indeed, but not stains, the visible church upon earth hath seldom or never been free from. For to let pass the first six hundred years, because on both sides we rather appeal to them, than any way appeach them. Beda, who flourished in the year 730. bemoans the state of the church; saying, every man seeth with wet eyes how the state of the church daily grows worse and worse; and well might he complain in such sort, for, Genebrard a popish chronicler confesseth, that in succeeding 
Ex Wolfio. cp. dead.. videt quisque non sine lachrymis rem indignan, quantum ecclesiae status ad pejora quotidie & infima devolvatur. Geneb. chron. l 4. ad an. 901: per annos fere centum quinquaginta, a Johanne scilicet actavo, qui Nichola● & Adriano secundo sanctis pontificibus successit, usque ad Leonem nonum, qui primus a deo vocatus (velut alter Aaron) antiquam pontificum integritatem è coelo in sedem apostolicam revocavit à virtute majorum prorsus defecerunt, apotactici, apostaticive potius quam apostolici. Benn, card. Sella pontificia terribiliter dei nutu scissa est in plures partes; ut manifeste daretur intelligi sessores illos pontificis sedem & ecclesiam Christi crudeliter dissipare. Lamb. Zizania totum sacri gregis corpus quasi tabe quadam infecerunt. Otho. R●ma crevit in divitiis & potentia, decrevit in veritate & justitia. Joachi. l. de concord. disserit qu●●●●nge aliena sit omnis hodierna religio aforma primitivae ecclesiae; & sup. Esa. ecclesia senesc●●s, sicut Solomon, idol●latrica factaest.  times, from John the eighth, till Leo the ninth, all that sat in the apostolic chair, fell away from the virtue of their ancestors, & deserved rather to be termed apotacticall and apostatical than apostolical. And after the thousand year, when satan was let loose, even till the happy reformation of the church by Martin Luther, let us heat what the witnesses of the truth in their several ages have deposed touching the church failings, especially in the western parts.  
In the year 1050. Benno writeth, that the Pope's chair was fearfully cut into more parts; and that prodigy boded that those popes who were to sit in it should miserably rend the church of Christ.  
In the year 1078. Lambertus Geasonburgensis writeth, that tares ran over the whole field of Christ, and that the whole body of Christ's flock pined away in a consumption.  
In the year 1160. Otho Frisingensis observeth, that Rome grew in wealth and power, but decayed in truth and justice.  
In the year 1200. joachimus, a religious abbot discourseth, how far the religion practised in his time differed from the form and manner of the primitive church, and how the church now growing old, like Solomon, fell into idolatri●.  
In the year 1290. Robert Gallus had a vision, wherein he saw a 
Gallus. Vidi pontificem missam peragentem capite arido & macilento, acsi esset ligneum; & dixit spiritus ad me, hoc ecclesiae Romanae statum significat. ubertinus. hodierna ecclesia dicitur nova Babylon, quia est meretrix magna, quia verus cultus & amor sponsi sui Iesu est turpiter adulteratus, & spiritus justorum hujus temporis supra modum opprimitur, & velit nolit in mult is ejus actibus meretrici servire compellitur. Occam; op. n●nagint, dierum. ut intentum suum horrendum ad finem perducere possint, defendentes veritatem per sequuntur, interimunt innoxium sanguinem fundunt; quique hoc faciunt sunt ipsi qui videbantur regere & docere populum, ipsi ponti fices, egressa est enim iniquitas è Babylone. Gerson. negare non possum multa inter christianos simplices sub specie religionis introducta esse, quorum sanctior esset omissio: Plat damnat mandata Christi qui se ejus vicarium dicit, & ●redentes in verba dei e●urit: & beu miseram certe condition●m coecorum hominum; qui, quia contra conscientiam in errore persistunt, se●pso● in aternum c●itium prosternunt!  pope saying mass with a lean, meager, and dry head, like as if it had been made of wood; and the spirit said unto him, this signifieth the state of the Roman church.  
In the year 1304. Ubertinus a Casali chargeth the Roman church with gross and foul adultery: the present church is called new Babylon, which is the great whore, because the true worship and love of her spouse Jesus is foully corrupted in her, and the spirit of righteous men in this time is oppressed above measure, and is compelled, will they, nill they, in many things, to serve the whore in her unclean acts.  
In the year 1320. William Occam thus declaimeth against the Pope's tyranny and cruelty in wasting the church of God, and suppressing the truth; the bishops who now seem to govern and teach the people of God, that they may compass their wicked ends, persecute those that defend the truth, even to death, and shed innocent blood.  
In the year 1370. S. Brigetta describeth the miserable state of the church in her days, in her writings extant in Bibliotheca patrum.  
In the year 1416. Gerson the famous chancellor of Paris inge●●ously confesseth, that many corruptions and abuses were brought into the church under the colour of religion, which it were far better and more pious to omit, than retain.  
In the year 1460. Platina brandeth Christ's vica● with cruelty against the true servants of Christ. He, which calleth himself Christ's vicar, condemneth Christ's commands, and burneth them that believe in his words.  
And in the life of Bennet the eighth he breaketh out into a bitter exclamation of the guides of the people in his time. O the miserable condition (saith he) of these blind men; who, because they persist in error against their conscience, cast themselves into everlasting perdition!  
He that is not satisfied with this taste, may glut himself if 〈◊〉 please, with store of such bitter fruit gathered to his hand by the author and supplementer of Catalogus testium veritatis, especially in the 14 century, and Petrus de Alliac● de planctu curiae Roman●, and de reformatione ecclesiae, and Wicelius method concord.    

PAR. VI. Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion.  

CHALLENGE.  
For to say (as some protestants do) the church was long invisible (besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament) it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation, whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to join h●●ds: and amongst christians this invisibility supposed, it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments.   

Answer.  
What protestants affirm that the Catholic visible church, to wit, the company of those who profess the true christian faith, was a long time invisible? We deny that the church was ever driven to such straits, or reduced to such a paucity or obscurity (much less invisibility) but that new proselytes might have access unto her, and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation, though not always without danger to their persons and estates. And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity, you fight also against an invisible adversary, and pursue your own fancy, as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drove his own image in the air before him. Of this see more at large in the Preface.    

PAR. VII. Concerning the visibility of the Roman church, and how the papacy hath been opposed in former ages.  

CHALLENGE.  
We then affirm, and let ●ur adversaries disprove it if they can, that the Roman church hath been always visible.   

Answer.  
That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible, we yield you gratis; but that the Roman church you mean, hath been so, we peremptorily deny. When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible, our meaning is, that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles, and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs, there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof, and provinces belonging to it, a church professing christian doctrine: in the beginning most purely, in the middle more impurely; but in the end, and at this day most corruptly. And what gain you hereby? that the Roman church you mean, that is, that church, or rather that faction in the church, for (papatus est in ecclesia, papatus tamen non est ecclesia) which professeth the present Roman faith, and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church, hath been always visible? It will no way follow: christianity may be and was many hundred years without popery; and a church in Rome also, but as far different from the present Roman church, as Sicily in 
Cic. Ver. Act. 5. ut in uberri●. is Siciliae partibus Siciliam quare●….  Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily; and therefore as the orator sought for Sicily in the most fruitful parts of Sicily; so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith, and church, so much commended by the apostles in Rome itself, and find it anywhere in the christian world, rather than there. To instance in the controversy about the head, which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of pa●ists and papalins, we deny that there was any christian church at Rome, or elsewhere for many hundred years after Christ which acknowledged the Pope's supremacy, or built their faith upon his infallibility. 
2 Cor. 12. 11. Ambros. in 2 Cor 12. 11. Ch●ys. in Gal. 〈◊〉. 8. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, &c. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Oecum. in hunc locum. Leo ser. de Pet. & Paul. Hos gratia Dei in tantum apicem inter omnia ecclesiae membr● provexit, ut eo in corpore cui caput est Christus quasi geminum constituerit lumen oculorum, de qu●rum, &c.  St. Paul, we know, accounted himself nothing inferior to the chief apostles. If your eyes be so dazzled with the brightness of the Pope's triple crown, that you cannot see Paul's equality to Peter, and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope, in the letter of the text; yet you cannot but see it in the father's commentaries. Hoc dicit (saith S. Ambrose) quia non est minor, neque in praedicatione, neque in signis faciendis, nec dignitate, sed tempore; that is, this the apostle speaketh (to wit, I am nothing inferior to the chief apostles) because he is not less or inferior, neither ●n the gift of preaching, nor in the gift of miracles, nor in dignity, but in time. What, not inferior to S. Peter? no, not to S. Peter, if S. Chrysostom take him right. As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles u●circumcision, so he calleth the Jews circumcision. And he showeth himself to be of equal honour with the rest; and he compares not hims●lf to others, but to the chief of them; showing, that every of them held the same rank of dignity. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} (saith Oecumenius) {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}: see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter. Nay, which is more remarkable, Pope Le●, who, when he took Peter alone, extolleth him above the skies, and admitteth him (after a sort) in consortium individuae Trinitatis, that is, into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity; yet meeting with Peter and Paul together, he doth equal homage and reverence to them both, and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them, in this or any other respect. De quorum meritis & virtutibus, quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem, nihil diversum sentire debemus, nihil discretum, quos & electio pares, & labour similes, & mors fecit aequales: of whose worth and virtues, 
It● sanct. Ma●i●●s. beatus Petrus et Paulus eminent inter univers●s: verum inter ipsos, quis cui praeponatur, incertum est. Greg. l. 1. di●t. c. ult Paulus Apostolus Petro Apostoler. primo in principat●● Apostolico frater es●.  which surpass all ability of speech, we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them, whose calling to the apostleship made them equa●l, and their travels in their office alike, and their martyrdom parallel. Here he compareth them, not only in regard of their personal gifts and labours, but of their calling and function, electio pares. S. Paul then (in Pope Leo's judgement) may go everywhere hand in handwith S. Peter, & he hath the right hand of him in the Pope's seal, as is confessed by Bellarmine, who much troubleth himself to yield a sufficient reason thereof. And as S. Paul stood upon even ground (as it were) with S. Peter, and wit●…tood him to the face: so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus, and Polycrates with Victor (against whom he wrote a synodical epistle,) and S. 
Cyp●. ep. 188. & Praefat. conc. Carthag. Ep. ad Mart. Mayer. ante Nic●n. conc. ●uisque sibi vixit, & ad Romanā ecclesiam parvu● respectus habeb●tur. Bellarm. lib. 2. de Rom. pont. c. 17 Non est verum adeo parvum respectum a● Romanan ecclesiam habitum fuisse, sententia AEneae Syluii partim est vera, partim non est vera. conc. Carthag. c. 28 & conc. Milevit. c. 22. Sipresbyteri ●…pellarent ad trās●…arina judicia, a nullo int●a Africā in communionem suscipiantur. Synod. ●●al. cap 28. Oport●re archiep.. Constantinop●…t nov● Romae ii●dem primatibus ●onoris dignū●sse. Synod. Constan. in Trull. cap. 36. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Plat. in Bonif. 3. A Phoca imperatore octinuit, magna tamen contentione, ut sedes beati Petri omnium ecclesiarum caput & dic●●etur & haber●… ab omnibus, quem quidem locum eccles. Constantinop. sibi vendicare conabatur.  Cyprian with Pope Stephen. And therefore AEneas Silvius (afterwards Pope) had good reason to affirm (though Bellarmin gives him the lie for it) that before the council of Nice, parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur; that is, that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop. At the council of Nice (which was neither called nor ratified by his authority, but the Emperor Constantine's) all the preeminence he had, amounted but to a primacy of order, and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome, & suburbicas ecclesias, as Ruffinus hath it. After the council of Nice, he contented himself with the style of, Urbis Romae episcopus, the bishop of the city of Rome. The church of Carthage forbade (under pain of excommunication) any in Carthage to appeal from their courts, ad transmarina judicia, intending, to the see of Rome. In the synods held at Chalcedon, and Constantinople, the patriarch of Constantinople is equally ranked with him: the decree of the council is, that Constantinople should enjoy like privileges to Rome, and the patriarch thereof to be extolled, or, as the words are, magnified, etiam in ecclesiasticis, even in ecclesiastical matters. Which words are most shamefully corrupted in the canon-law, and etiam in ecclesiasticis, is turned into, non tamen in ecclesiasticis: the council saith, even an ecclesiastical matters; your canon allegeth it, yet not in ecclesiastical matters. Perhaps the compiler of your canon-law thought it a meritorious work to falsify a record for the advantage of the see of Rome; but to let that pass, and n●t to cut you out too much work at once. I affirm, & disprove it if you can, that never any bishop of Rome obtained the title of universal bishop before Boniface the third his time, who got it with much difficulty, by the means of Phocas the murderer of his master: and mark it, I pray you, and glory in it if you please, that popery (properly so called) and Mahumetanism were both bred in one age, within a few years one of another.    

PARAG. VIII. Touching the second note, universality.  

CHALLENGE.  
We affirm, that the Roman church hath been always Catholic, viz. universal.   

Answer.  
If you had rubbed up your memory, as (it seems) you have rubbed your forehead, you would never let such a Catholic falsity, touching the Catholic universality of your Roman church, to have fallen from your pen. For it is well known, and in part confessed by Alfonsus 
Alfon. a Castro, ●it. Indulg. ●●lla●m. lib. 3. de ecclesia militante, cap. 3. Ecclesia est coetus hominum ejusd●● fidei professione & ●●runde● sacr●…rum co●●union●●…igatus sub regimine ligitimorum past●rum, ac praecipuèunius Christi in terris vicarii, Romani pontificis. Apo●. 20 7. and when the 1000 years are expired, sa●an shall be loosed out of his prison, & shall go out to deceive the n●tion, which are in the ●●ur quatres of the earth.  and others, that antiquity makes little, if any mention, of sundry particular points which at this day are held amongst you. You are not able to produce any kingdom, no nor province, no nor village, no nor hamlet, no nor man of note for the space of diverse hundreds of years after Christ, which agreed with you in all points of your Tridentine faith, or subscribed to the twelve new articles annexed thereunto. With what colour or show of probability can you affirm, that the Roman church (as you define it to be a company professing the present Roman faith under one visible he●d, to wit, the Pope) hath been always universal or spread over the whole world, when it is known to all, who know any thing of the church story, (especially since the division of the christian church into the eastern or Greek, & the western or Latin church,) that the eastern or Greek church (in circuit as large, is not larger than the western) never agnized, nor doth to this day, either your▪ Popes supremacy, or your Trent creed; and in the western church itself, though popery prevail much and spread like a gangrene very far (especially after the one thousand years, when satan was let loose) yet was there not any main point of popery established in the western church itself, without strong opposition and concestation. Even at this day (God's holy name be blessed for it) the protestar●s in England and Scotland, France and Ireland, Germany Poland, Denmark Swethland, the Netherlands and elsewhere, if they countervail not in number the popish party, yet they come very near; and now what is become of your brag of universality? let us now examine your succession.    

PAR. Ix.. Touching the third note, succession:  

CHALLENGE.  
The Roman church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastors, derived from the apostles, still teaching, &c.   

Answer.  
The third lame leg, on which your faith resteth itself, is the succession of Roman bishops and pastors, which, if it were strong and sound, yet the patriarchs of Constantinople, and Jerusalem, and Antiochia, and Alexandria, do set as good a leg forth for it as your bishop of Rome. They produce as uncontrollable a catalogue of 
Nicep●. lib. 〈◊〉. cap. 6. ecclesia Constant. a S. Andrea Apostol● 〈◊〉 sua● 〈◊〉. Baron. 〈◊〉. 6. refert legati●nem a Gabriele Patriar●●● ad Clemen. 8. mis. same, in cuj●●titul● se 97. Patri●●cham S. Marc. successerem indigita▪ Bellarm. de not. ecclesi●.  bishops and pastors, the one succeeding the other in their sees, as you in the see of Rome; and some of them from the apostles themselves. But what if this leg of yours prove a false leg, and will double under you (to use your own phrase?) let the day be yours (as now the night of error and ignorance is) if by the same evidence which you bring for your succession, we prove not many main defects and maims in it, which so deface and confound it, that it can be no note or mark of the true church, as you make it.  
First, notes and marks of any thing ought to be very remarkable and visible, and after a sort notorious, else they are not notae, but ignotae. If then the succession of your Romish bishops remain but quessionable, such succession questionless cannot be a note of the church; and is it not questionable and very uncertain, when you stick in the very beginning of your catalogue, and your skilfullest ushers know not where to rank Clemens, in the second or the fourth 
Nutat adhuc mundus, sit quartus anne secundus. Helvic. Chr●n●g. & al●●.  place? When during two and twenty schisms at least in the papacy, it was a meeting cast, and even lay between the Popes and anti-popes', whether were the true successors of Saint Peter? When, besides many flaws in your catalogue by vacancies for mon●ths & years, there was a great chasma or hiatus for almost one hundred years, during which time the Popes sat at Avinium & left Rome? When for one hundred and sixty years together you cannot name me one firm and allowable Pope, or such a one as he ought to be▪ 
Geneb. Chron. lib. 4. Baron. Annal. in An. 912. Quae tum facies S. Rom. ecclesiae? quam foed●ssima, cum Romae dominarentur potentissim●▪ aeque ac sordidissimae merit●ices, quarum arbitrio m●tarentur sedes darentur episcopat. & quod horrendum & nefandum est intruderentur in sedem Petri 〈◊〉 rum amasii pseudo-pontifices, qui non sunt nisi ad consignanda tempora in catalogo pontificum scripti? Virg. AEn Plat in vit, Clem 〈◊〉. Corruptis suffragiis, factiosus quisque dignitatem pontificatus consecucus est: By bought s●ff●ages, eve●y factious companion: spired ●o the Pop●dom. Geneb. ch●ō. l. 〈◊〉. Pontifices prodigiosilnam non more majorum eligebantur, sed 〈◊〉 Caesaribus intrudebantur. Mart. Pol●n. & alii. Glaber. R●d●l. Monach. Clun, Anastas. in vita Pelag. Dum non essent episcopi qui eum ordinarent, invent● sunt duo episcopi, Ioannes de Parasio, & Bonnus de Feren. & andrea's Pres●yter de Ostia, & ordinaverunt cum pontificem.  your own Genebrard confesteth, that fifty of them, as I noted before, in that time deserved to be termed rather apostatical, and disordered and irregular, t●a● canonical and apostolical. Baronius gives your succession yet a more terrible blow: what was then the face of the Roman church? how filthy, when as most potent and base queans bare all the sway at Rome? changed sees, and gave bishoprics at their pleasure? and, which is most abominable, and not to be named, intruded their paramours into Peter's chair? false bishops, whose names are written in the catalogue of Popes, only to note and design the times! Give me the clew (I pray you) by which you wind your sel●s out of this labryinth. Eugenius was deposed as schismatical by the council of Basit, and Amadeus was made Pope in his stead; yet afterwards this Eugenius, by the favour of princes and a strong hand, recovered the Popedom, and from him all Popes since reckon. Was Eugenius a schismatical and unlawful Pope, or not? If not, the general council of Basil could not judge of schism; and whether shall we believe you, or the general council of Basil? If he were a schismatical and an unlawful Pope, what shall we judge of all that succeeded him? 
Hic labour ille domus, & inextricabilis error.   
Besides this Eugenius, how many other Popes have thrust into the chair by usurpation and corruption? how many have cut it asunder by schism? how many have rayed and defiled it with heresy, and abominable filthiness? When you so confidently affirm, that the church of Rome hath had always a succession of true bishops and pastors, I pray you, tell us what you mean by true bishops and pastors? If men capable of the Popedom, Pope Joan, and Benedict the ninth chosen Pope at ten years old, were no such; if faithful pastors and bishops truly discharging their pastoral function, in feeding Christ's flock by diligent preaching, and exemplary living name me two such Popes for every hundred of years since Christ, & Phyllida solus habeto, I● by true bishops and pastors you understand rightly consecrated, and canonically elected and invested. Pope Pelagius the first was not so who obtained the papacy by an imposture; no●Sylvester, who aspired to it by art magic; no●Eugenius, who was at the first promoted by faction, and afterwards held it by might, in despite of the council of Basil; if by true bishops you mean orthodoxal bishops, and preachers of the truth; Liberius was no such, branded with the note of Arrianism by St. 
Catal. vir. illust. Synod. 6: Constant. Act. 12. & 13. Synod. 〈◊〉. Nicen 2. Act. 7. Synod. 8. Const. sub Adria 2. Act. 7.  Jerome, and Pope Damasus; Honorius was no such, for he was condemned for the heresy of the Monotholites in three general counsels confirmed by three Popes: John the 23. was no such, who is charged in the council of Constance with the denial of the immortality of the soul, and the life to come, and for that and for other blasphemies and enormous crimes deposed by the council.  
To come yet nearer to the quick; when you stand so much upon succession, and make it an infallible note, what mean you by succession? local succession or doctrinal, that is, a succeeding of bishops and pastors in the same place only? or a succession, not only in the same place, but principally and especially in the same orthodoxal and Catholic doctrine, which is the only true (and properly so called) succession? as Nazianzen affirmeth: {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} 
Naz. Orat. de Sancto Athanasio. Vid. Irenaeum contra haer. l. 4. c. 43, 44. Adhaerete i is qui apostolorum doctrinam custodiunt & cum episcop●li successione charisma veritatis acceperunt.  {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. This excellent passage consisting of divers agnominations and graceful figures in the greek cannot be translated but to the loss, and therefore omitting the english of it, in stead thereof I will impart unto you a very pertinent note upon it, which I found in a friend's book, contrived by him into these elegant iambics,  

{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}:  
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. 

The Pope succeedeth Peter, papists say;  
So tempests calms succeed, and night the day.     
If you take succession in this latter sense, you take up again a beggarly fallacy called petitio principii; you prove idem per idem; to wit, that your Romish saith is the true faith, and the Romish church the true church, because your Romish bishops and p●… have always succeeded one another in the profession of one and the selfsame orthodoxal faith. If you take succession in the former sense, for bare local succession, or the sitting of divers bishops one after another in the same chair, you make a ●oodden argument: much like to that wherewith the fool in Dion pers●●ded himself that he must needs be some great commander, because he had sat in Caesar's chair: or that wherewith Vibius R●fus was more than half induced to believe, that he had Tully's eloquence infused into him by sitting in Tully's pew, and leaning upon Tully's desk. By this argument you might prove profane Photius to be an holy bishop, because he succeeded Ignatius an holy man: and Athanasius to be an Arrian heretic, because he succeeded an Arian bishop: and our renowned martyr Cranmer to be a papist, because he succeeded Warham a papist: and Cardinal Pool to be a protestant, because he succeeded Cranmer a protestant. Nay, by this reason you might prove pope Adrian, who trampled upon the Emperor Frederick's neck, blasphemously abusing the words of the psalmist, thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder, to be a pattern of humility; Pope Hildedrand, who entered like a fox, and ruled like a lion, and died like a dog, to have been a pattern of simplicity: Pope Stephen the 6. and Sergius the 3. who pulled their predecessor Formosus out of the grave, the one cutting off his finger, the other his head, and casting his carcase into Tiberis, to have been patterns of humanity: Pope Boniface the 7. who robbed S. Peter's chair of all the jewels and precious things in it, to have been a pattern of a faithful steward: Pope John the 12. who gave orders in a stable, gelded his Cardinals, drank an health to the devil, and at dice called for help of Jupiter and Venus, to have been a saint: Pope Sylvester, who gave himself wholly to the devil, to have been a devoto: Pope Sixtus the 4. who ware cloth of gold at home in his private house, eased nature in stools of silver, and decked his harl●t Tiretia with shoes covered with pearl, to have been a modest and frugal man: Pope Alexander the 6. who carnally knew his own daughter, and Pope John the 13. who was slain in the very act of adultery, to have been virgins: nay, by this argument you might prove Pope Joan, who was said to be brought on bed in the street in a solemn procession, to have been a man, because she succeeded men in that see. The heralds, who have blazoned the arms of the popes, are Platina, Genebrardus, Luitprandus, Sigonius, Sigebertus, Martinus Polonus, Baptista Fulgosus, Jovianus Pontanus, Wesselius groaning. Let me give you good counsel in your ear: invent better arguments for popery than these, or charge your elect ladies, sub sigillo confessionis, never to utter any of them before a learned protestant, for fear of scandalising your Romish faith. Let this suffice for your note, succession; I will now canvas your note, unity.    

PARAGRAPH. X. Touching the 4. note of the church, viz. unity.  

CHALLENGE.  
Teaching the same unchanged doctrine in all points of faith.   

Answer.  
To help out your former argument drawn from the note, succession, you add another note (as you make it) the note of unity and consent in doctrine, at least, in all substantial points of faith: against which I except; first, that it is no proper mark of the Church: secondly, that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church. Although nothing better becometh the church of God, than to be at unity in itself; yet certain it is, that both ●nity may be without the true church, and even in the purest times the true church was without unity. The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissension among the good wheat in the field of the church, that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicity of sects among them. On the contrary, as the poet said, magna inter molles concordia, so we 
Juvenal. Sat. 2. Psal. 2. 2.  may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel, conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed. The Sadduces might, the Nestorians may, the Arians did brag of their consent in matter of faith. Who art thou (saith the Arian Emperor to Liberius then orthodox) who troublest the peace of the whole world? Will you hence argue that the Arians were orthodox, or the Nestorians Catholics, or the Sadduces right believers? Did you never read in S. Hilary, the ministers of antichrist are 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 
Hilar. Cont. Auxen. ministri antichristi de impictatis suae unitate jactare solent, agentes se non ut christi episcopos sed ut antichristi sacerdotes.  of their unity in their impiety? if you ever read it, could you choose but reflect upon yourself? as for us, though we desire nothing more than that we may think one thing: and that, as we all agree in the love of truth, so we might all profess that truth in love; yet when piety and unity, truth and concord are divided, we say with Nazianzen, a godly discord is better than an ungodly concord; it is better to dissent for truth, than consent in error. Here if you reply, that you argue not barely from consent, but from consent in the truth, you fall again to your begging trade: you suppose that which is the main point in question and bears all before 
Nazian. Iren. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  it; prove your doctrine to be the truth of God, and take all. A man would think that there should not be heard so much as the noise of an hammer among your workmen who stand so much for unity. If there should be differences even in matter of saith necessary to salvation among us, as there are not, our controversies are de fimbriis, non de textu, of the lace and fringe of ceremonies, not of the Queen's vesture of gold wrought about with divers colours: I say, if 
Psal. 45. 13.  there were differences amongst us in substantial points of faith, this could be no strong argument against us who make not unity an inseparable note of the true church; but it utterly overthrows your church in your own judgement, who determine peremptorily, that where there is not unity, there is no true church; but I assume, there is not unity in doctrine of faith amongst you, therefore out of your own mouth I conclude you have no true church, Although, like Samsons soxes, you are all tied by the tail, that is, the conclusions de fide set down by your false prophet teaching lies (whom the prophet Esay warranteth us to call the tail;) yet your heads are as far asunder as may be, and you draw almost in every controversy of faith contrary ways; casuist against ca●●ist, and canonist against canonist, and canonist against casuist, Dominicans against Franciscans, and Sorbonists against Dominicam, and Jesuits against all. Neither are these quarrels, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}; but as Hercules his controversies was with Antens, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, about Scripture the rule of faith, and Popes and counsels the judges of faith, and regenerating grace the cause of faith, and justification the effect of faith, and the sacraments the symbols of faith. Your controversies are sharp and poignant, and your differences irreconcilable; you are at odds.  
1. Concerning scripture. Some of you hold, that the Jews have corrupted the original of the old Testament, as Jacobus episcop. Christop. and Canus; and others deny it, as Driedo and 
Dried. l. 2 〈◊〉 Eccls d●g●. Bellar l. 2. d● ver. Des. c. 2.  Bellarmine. Some of you hold, that the original text of Greek and Hebrew are authentical, and that by them all translations are to be examined. Others, according to the strict letter of the Trent-canon, hold the vulgar latin absolutely authentical, insomuch that no man, quovis praeiextu, upon any pretence whatsoever, 
Caittan. Hugo: Abulens & alii.  may reject it. Some among you hold the books known by the name Apocrypha not to be of equal authority with the canonical scriptures, nor to be produced to ground any article of faith upon them. Others, carried away with the Trent-stream, admit 
Vasquez. de Ador O●dcor● in exam.  those apocryphal writings into the canon of scripture given by divine inspiration.  
2. Concerning the Decalogue. Some of you teach, that we are commanded to worship God, even in the devil himself; others 
Vasquez. Catarrh.  disclaim this strange doctrine. Some of you teach, that the commandment, non facies sculptile, is not moral, nor bindeth christians, but part of the ceremonial law and positive appertaining to Jew's only; others defend the contrary with us. Some 
See Bellar l. 2. de Imag. cap. 7.  of you teach, that images are not to be worshipped in themselves, or properly, but only, ratione prototyps, in regard of the thing which they represent: others defend, that the image is to be worshipped, in, and for itself, and not only in regard of the thing which it representeth. 
Bellar. l 2. de Imag cap. 21.  Nay, some blush not to maintain, that the image is to be worshipped, eodem cultus genere, quo prototypon; that is, that 
Aquin, 3. part Quest. 25. Ca●etan. Ponavent: Almayn: Marsilius, Carthus. & alii 3. sen●distin 9  the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we worship Christ, to wit, cultu latria: that the image of the blessed Virgin is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we ought to worship the Virgin herself, to wit, cultu hyperdouliae: that the images of saints are to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith the saints themselves are to be worshipped, to wit, cultu doulia. Some hold all equivocation before a magistrate to be unlawful, and forbidden in the 
See the w●●tings of english Se●. priests against Jesuites. Parson's Trea●. of aquiv. Garnet.  commandment, non dices falsum, as being no better (in plain english) than a lie. Others allow equivocation in divers cases.  
3. Concerning the blessed virgin. Some earrestly maintain, that she was conceived in sin, as all the children of Adam are, Christ only excepted: others, with as much vehe●●●cie both maintain the doctrine, and celebrate the ●ea●● of her i●●●culane ●onception; and though Sixtus the 4. took part with the Franc●… 
A●varez lib de Auxil. great. & al●● Dominic. Bellar. & alii Jesuit.  yet Cardinal de Turre-Cremata writes for the D●…. 
Mulciber in Trojam, pr●●r●ja staba● Ap●ll●.   
4. Touching the grace of regeneration, and the ●p●ration thereof in our conversion. Some teach, that it worketh physicè, and determineth the will; others teach, that it worketh only ●…liter, standing (as it were) at the devotion of the will, to admit of it, or refuse it; to be converted by it, or not.  
5. Touching justification. some teach, that we are not justified by our inherent righteousness, as Pighius, and o●he●s cited out of Vega; others follow the common tenet, affirming that the righteousness, by which we are justified before God is not Christ's imputed, but out inherent righteousness. 
Catharinus lib do matrimonio. Bellar. & papistae communiter Vasquez. Dominicus Soto Gerson. Tract. de vit. Spiralmayn. Tr. 3. Roffen in Ref. 32, Artic. Luth citat. ex Bellar. lib. 1. de amiss. great. & stat. pec. Lombardus. Suarez. Fisher. Corne●. a ●ap. in Esa 7. per verba consecrationis vere & realiter generatur Christus. ●●llar, recognit. op. Gratian, de consecrat, dist,   
6. Touching certainty of salvation. The learned know; C●…rinus hath written in this point agreeable to the doctrine of the reformed churches; as also how Dominious S●●● impug●eth his opinion.  
7. Touching marriage. Some hold it lawful for the innoce●t party to marry after divorce for adultery: others hold it utterly unl●wfull.  
8. Touching merit of works. Some hold, that the work● of a man in the state of grace merit ex condigno, ratione operis eternal life; others ex congruo only: and some utterly exclude all merit as they are cited out of Vega.  
9 Touching sins. Some teach, that all sins in their own nature are mortal; others are for the schools distinction of v●●iall and mortal sins.  
10. Touching the sacrament of the Lord's supper. Some teach, that the body of Christ is made of the bread, and allow of a kind of production in transubstantiation; others defend transubstantiation by way of adduction not production. Secondly, so●e reach that the body of Christ is in very deed and sensually handled and broken in the priests hands and ground and chewed with the teeth of the faithful, as the form of subscription enjo●ned to Berengarius by pope Nicholas, extant in the canon law, implieth; others like not of this gross manner of eatin●▪ and for Nicholas his words, they put a colourable gloss upon them. Some hold, that mice may eat the body of Christ, others doubt of it, and others deny 
Bellar. de Sacramen. Euchar. Cautel. Miss, si mus comederit, &c. Lombard. quid ergomus comedit? Deus novit. Innocentius 10 Catharinus. Alsons●a Castro Adrian. in senten. Bellar de Rom. Pontif. Bellar de Rom. Pont. & Apol. cont. Barcl. Hart. Barcl. de potest. pap. in temporal. Widdringtonu's Serbonist● communiter. Jesuitae communiter.  it. Some hold the consecration to be made by these words, Hoc est corpus meum; others are of another mind.  
11. Touching the pope. Some teach, that he may err, as pope, and in cathedra; others will by no means grant, that the pope sitting in his chair, may be ever beside the cushion. Some teach that the pope hath power to depose kings, and dispose of their kingdoms; others can find no ground at all in scripture, or reason, for this temporal power of the pope.  
12. Touching co●●cel●. Some hold, that the council is above the pope; others, that the pope is above the general council, and both sides bring into the field, pares aquilas, & pila minantia pilis; pope against pope, and council against council; nay council and pope against council and pope; and here you are at your wit's end.  
These, and such like controversies, nay speculations of far less moment are matters of faith when we differ from you, or among ourselves, about them. Forsooth, your determination maketh matter of faith be the question never so flight or curious; your suspense makes it a neutral point, be the matter never so expedient for resolution. Nor in points resolved by the church can the general submission of the Pope's subjects be accounted union, when as it is constrained by the strong hand of authority suppressing all contradiction rather than proceeding from any voluntary 
Concil. Constant. Concil. Lateran. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 sub Mart●… quinto sess. 5. Gene●ale 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Christ● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, cui quilibet cu●… status vel▪ dignitatis, etiam si pa●alis existat, obedire t●●●tur, Contra concil. Lateran. sub 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ●ess. 11. sol●m Romanum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnia ●…lia auctoritatem baben●…, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & potestatem 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Vide I●●▪ 〈◊〉  and free consent of judgements, as appeareth by your clipping the tongues of Stella, Ferus. an● very many other of your own authors, when they speak any thing of your errors or corruptions.    

PAR. XI. That the notes abovenamed are not found in the Roman church.  

CHALLENGE.  
All which going together, and being only found in her, and not in another church, do evidently prove that she alone is truly apostolical, and consequently out of her there neither is, nor can be salvation.   

Answer.  
When Phasis (in Martial) being but a peasant, put himself into, a rich suit of apparel, and, having the garb of a gentleman, thrust himself amongst the gentlemen into the theatre, and there fell a commending the new edict of the Emperor touching the placing of all sorts of citizens according to their ranks, saying, tandem commodius licet sedere, nunc est reddita dignitas equestris, etc, Now we may sit without trouble: now the gentry have recovered their right. Before he had ended his speech, in comes Lectius, the Emperor's officer to execute the edict; and by virtue of that edict, which Phasis was so highly extolling, turns him out of his seat, as not due to him by any title or colour, save of his purple coat. 
Istas purpureas, & arroga●tes, 
M●… Epi●●am.   
Jussit surgere Lectius la●ernas.   
Whether Phasis his case and yours are not alike, let those judge who dare look upon truth without such false spectacles as you p●… upon the noses of those whom you nuzzle in superstition. You set forth visibility and universality, and unity and succession in golden and glorious colours, as the proper marks of Christ's true church; by which marks and notes you are discovered to be none of the t●●e church, sorex suo indicio. For (as hath in part already, and shall hereafter be showed more at large, if either your cause or heart will bear a second encounter) popery was not visible till many hundred years after Christ, when the man of sin began to be revealed: universal popery was never at unity with itself, it is not at this day; and for the succeeding of Roman bishops, it hath been such, both in regard of the violent, fraudulent, simoniacal and schismatical manner thereof, as also in regard of the persons succeeding in that see, who have been branded with the foul marks of i●cest, and the sin not to be named, and the black and hellish marks of schism, heresy, atheism, and necromancy; that, if there could be a succession in hell, it could not be imagined to be worse.    

PARAG. XII. Amplitude and eminent visibility no mark of the true Church.  

Challenge.  
To disprove us herein, we require that a protestant church with these marks may be showed to have been always ext●●t.   

Answer.  
To disprove you herein it is not requisite that a protestant church with these marks be showed; it is sufficient to show that these are not proper and inseparable marks of the true church.  
To ●anverse your whole discourse, we need no more than to ex●●●ge and rub out the false marks you have drawn of the church, which may be done with a wet finger. Of your ●●itie and succession, we suppose, you desire to hear no more: as for eminent visibility and u●iversalitie, it seemeth strange, that amplitude should be the mark of Christ's little flock; eminent visibility and ●ustre the character of the woman which fled into the wilderness, and there hid herself a long time. If the outward conspicuousness of the church may not be sometime obscured and eclipsed, S. Ambrose was out; who 
Ambros. l. 〈◊〉: H●xa●. c. 8. Eccl●●●a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 freq●…s.  compared her (in this respect) to the moon. You yourself confess, that before the days of Constanti●e the church was generally eclipsed, and I may as certainly add that, not long after the days of Constantine, during the raig● and fury of Arri●● Emperors, and▪ bishops bearing the greatest sway, and occupying the chi●f scents in the church, she was again eclipsed, or rather turned into blood; and yet neither the heathen, nor the Arr●●● persecution, by the judgement of the best learned, may be compared to that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, that last and greatest tribulation by anti-christ; at which time, as those of your own side confess, the public sacrifice shall cease. And as S. Austin saith expressly, ●cclesia non apparebit, impi●s ultra 
August. ep. 80. Quando solobscurabitur, &c. ecclesia non apparebit, &c. See the preface to the answer supra.  modum saevientibus; the church shall not app●●r, wicked men raging and cruelly persecuting her above measure. You see what becomes of your note of eminent visibility, and splendour: now for amplitude and multitude of professors, if it were safe following it, if that were the touchstone of truth, if religion must go by voices of the many, the Greek church would carry it at this day from you; the Mahometans from it, and the idolatrous gentiles from all. For, as a learned and judicious man hath exactly calculated it, the christians at this day possess near about a sixt part of the 
Prierwoods Inquiry, cap. 14.  known inhabited world; the Mahometans a fifth part, and the idolatrous gentiles, two thirds or little less; so that if we divide the known regions of the world into thirty equal parts; the christians part is as five, the Mahometans as fix, and the idolatrous as nineteen. O lamentable estate of the world! Quis talia f●●d● temperet a lachrymis? how much larger is the heard of satan, than the flock of Christ? if you restrain your note of universality to such as profess the worship of God in Christ, and thereby exclude the Payni●●s and Mahum●tans, yet so it will not stead you; for it is most certain, that the party of christians which oppose the papacy is incomparably the greatest in number. If to the protestants in the western church, you add the eastern churches professing christian faith in a great part of Europe, Asia, and Africa, they will bear down the scale to the ground. To speak nothing of the Ab●ssin●● and AEthiopians largely dispread in the kingdoms of Pr●ster John; to omit the patriarch of Muscovia, the archbishops of Mold●via, and Walachia. Under the Turk there are fo●● p●triarchs at this day, to wit, the patriarch of Constantinople, of Al●x●ndria, Antiochia, and Jerusalem: and that these patriarchs are not like some of your bishops, whom P●normitan fitly calls nullatenenses, appe●rs by the catalogue of archbishops subject to the p●triarch of Con●…, s●t 
Curop●l. d● Offic. ●●las. 〈◊〉 & Offic. mag. eccles.  down by Curopalata, which are these: 1. The archbishop of Cas●rea in C●pp●d●cia. 2. Ephesus. 3. Heracle●. 4. A●… 5. 〈◊〉 6. Sardis. 7. Necomedia. 8. Nicea. 9 Chalcedon. 10. Mitylene. 11. Thessalonica. 12. Laodicea. 13. Synadae. 14. Jeonium. 15. Corinth. 16. Athens. 17. Patrae. 18. Trupezuntium. 19 Larissae. 20. Naupactus. 21. Adrianopolis. These archbishops have many bishops under them; the archbishop of Ephesus. 2. of Moldavia. 3. of Walachia. 3. of Heraclea. 7. of Thessalonica. 9 of Corinth. 10. of Athens. 11. of Larissae. 13. of Muscovia. 17. not to overcharge your memory with more under the patriarchs. All those christians, besides many more of the Greek church professing Christ, differ from your Roman church in many substantial points of faith. They ●cknowledge no supremacy of the Pope; have no faith in his infallibility, nor trust in his pardons; they disclaim merits, and works of supererogation; purgatory, & transubstantiation are no articles of their faith; they allow marriage of priests; they cannot away with the mutilation of the sacrament by depriving the laity of the cup; they teach the perfection and sufficiency of the scripture; they have the scripture and the church liturgy in their several languages understood by their people. The Musc●vits in the Musc●vitish; the Ar●bians in the Arabic, the Georgians in the Iberick; the Carmonians in the Carmanick; the Col●hians, Slavonians, Grecians, in their known Greek or other peculiar languages; therefore it is not safe for you to put the truth of religion upon this point. Were the rule of multitude of visible professors of religion, cert●in and infallible, Mi●hea were to be condemned, and the 400. 
1 King. 22. 6. Ierem. 18. 18. M●●th. 27. 1● Theod lib. 2. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}; Andrad. des. concil. Trid. l 2. p. 185. A●ri● virustantopere serpsit. ut Hicron. citante tres tantum aut 4. episcopos integran fidem servasse sama fuer●t Hieron. cont. Lucifer.  prophets of Aha● to be justified; Jeremy to be abandoned and all the prophets that were in Juda and Jerusalem, whom ●ose against him, to be followed. Nay Christ, the truth itself, to be traduced and reproved, and the co●●cell of the chief priests and elders held against him to be maintained and approved. Had you lived in Athanasius his days, we know where to have had you, questionless not of his side, who had all the world in a manner against him, as the speech of the Arian Emperou● to Liberius imports. Wh●● a petty part art thou of the world? Who art thou, that ●ette●● thyself against the world? In S. Iohn● time, the whole world was set on wickedness: and in Athanasius his time, up●n heresy; ●o●us m●●dus (saith S. Hierom) gemuit se fact●… Arr●anum; the whole worl● gr●aned, because it became Arria●. What becomes now of your note of universa●itie? To this point I earnestly desire particular satisfaction, which I have not ye● received from any Rom●… Catholic; or universalist, (as they would be called.)    

PAR. XIII. Where the true church was when the Roman fell.  

CHALLENGE.  
Or if they cannot do this (as we well know they cannot) let them labour to assign us another Catholic church distinct from the Roman, when she (as they falsely suppose) fell from her first truth.   

Answer.  
We cannot prove our true church by the false marks you have set down: neither can you prove your false church by the true marks set down by us. Eminent visibility, & illustrious ample universality, and anti-christian combination under one head, the Pope, are no marks (as hath been showed) of the true church. And what then if we cannot prove our doctrine by them? Then you say, let them labour to assign us another Catholic church distinct from the Roman, when she (as they falsely suppose) fell from her first truth. I have already showed a church more ample than yours, and not only distinct from your Roman, but opposite to it as much as we in the most fundamental point, to wit the papacy; yea so opposite, that the first sunday in Lent, when they solemnly curse all heretics, as Arrius, Macedonius, Eutyches, Nestorius, Apollinaris, &c. they pronounce in like manner an Anathema to the Pope. But what an argument is this? If you cannot prove your church by the forenamed false marks, then assign us some other church distinct from the Roman, in which these marks are conspicuous? To pass by this your lame inference, and make the best of such poor stuff as you bring; out of your own words a man may pick out such an argument; either the Roman church continued still the church, or when she sell away, some other church must be assigned, which persevered in the truth, else there should be no Church in the world. If this be that you would say, the answer to this your objection is very easy on our parts; for we charge not the Latin church with defection from the true faith universally, but the chief governors and leaders thereof, or (to speak more fully) that prevalent and predominant faction in the church of Rome, that hath born sway for some hundreds of years, which we say is plunged into many dangerous and pestilent errors and superstitions: yet not into all errors at one leap, but they sunk into them by degrees; when then this faction in the Roman church, which we call the papacy, or the kingdom of anti-christ, or the Mystery of iniquity, threw itself into an open gulf of error or heresy, we say, that that part of the Roman church, and elsewhere, which both secretly and openly impugned such error and heresy, and in as much as in them lay stopped such corruptions at the entrance, were the true church: as for example; when the forenamed faction by Boniface the third, & Phocas his means, brought first into the church the Luciferian title, 
Plat. in Bonifac. 3.  and anti-christian power of ecumenical or universal bishop, and head of the whole church, they in the Greek and Latin church which opposed it, were the true church. When the same faction, by Irene and Pope Adrian's means, decreed the worshipping of images in the second council of Nice, those who made head against them, and opposed this idolatrous decree in the council of Frankenford, and synod of Paris, together with Jonas bishop of Orleans, and Charles the great, and many in England who wrote against that blasphemous and idolatrizing synod, were then the true church. When by the strength of the same faction, transubstantiation first stole in secretly, and after was openly established by a decree in the council of Lateran, Scotus Erigena, and Bertram, Elfricus, 
Guliel. Neubridg. lib. 2. Histor. Angl.  and Berengarius, and their scholars in the Latin church, which were in number like the sand of the sea, were the true church. When Hildebrand began to restrain the clergy by a law from marrying, Nicetas the abbot, and the bishops of Italy, France, and Germany, who withstood him, they (holding no fundamental errors in any point of faith, for aught can be showed) were the true church. Lastly, when the same faction prevailed so far in the council of Constance, as to decree the mutilation of the holy sacrament, & depriving the laity of the cup, contrary to Christ's institution, and the practice of the primitive church, John Husse, & Jerom of Prague, and the lords of Bohemia, and the known remainder of the Waldenses, besides many millions of christians both in the Greek and Latin church, who oppugned and resisted openly or secretly that sacrilegious sanction, many of them to the effusion of their blood, were the true church; whose followers i●●●h●mia and in France, and elsewhere, continued even till Lut hers time, who was expected before he came, and came not alone into the Lord's battle, as your Alfonsus a Castro testifieth in these words: No● pr●diit 
Alfon. a Castro, epist. Nuncupat, ad Philip. 2. Hisp. Reg. edit. Paris, 1564.  solus Lutherus, tanta est hujus seculi infoelicit●s, sed mult●… hareticorum agmine, seu quodam satellitio stipat●● processit, qui ill●… expectasse videntur, ut sub illius vexille postea milit●…t: illi 〈◊〉 nomina dederunt Philipp. Melancthonus, Faber Capito, Lambertus, Conradus Pelicanus, Andreas Osiander, Martin Bucerus, allique progessis temporis catervatim, se illius fa●iliae inseruerunt; neither came Luther out alone (such is the unhappiness of this age) but guarded with a great troop of heretics, who seemed to look for him, that afterwards they might fight under his banner: for presently Philip Melanc●hon, Faber Capito, Lambert, Conrad Pelica●, Andr. Osiander, Martin Bucet, gave their names unto him, and others in process of time in great numbers inserted themselves into his family.    

PARAGRAPH. XIV. Of protestants in the age immediately before LUTHER.  

CHALLENGE.  
Or at least they must show us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther beg●●, in what city, town, or country they dwelled, and what writers speak of them which lived before our times.   

Answer.  
First I answer, that we need not give any particular or punctual answer to this your demand: a question grounded upon a wrong supposal is sufficiently answered by overthrowing the ground; now the ground of this question is this supposal, that if there were any protestants before Luther, there must needs be some authentical and particular record of them producible by ●s at this day. Protestants there might be then, yet not now extant, at least for 〈◊〉 to come by. I pray, how many millions, not only of right beleev●…, but heretics also have been since Christ's time, who were never upon a particular record? Were there not a kind of heretics called Acephali, because their head and first author could never be 
Photius biblioth. in S. Eph●. Theop●litano.  known? Again, how many records and writings, especially of this nature, have perished, either by commands of authority, or by casualty? restore us the works of Wickliff which you burned, and many other authors whom you have either extinguished, or of late by your Index Expurgatorius clipped their tongues, or you keep close prisoners in the Vatican, and this question of yours will soon be answered. In the mean while, as Petrus Molineus saith wittily, you deal with us herein as if a thief, who hath stolen away a man's purse, and made away the money, should demand of the true man, what is become of your money? If you had any such sums of money, in what bag, in what purse? where are those bags and purses, & c? If such a question as you make here had been put tothe prophet Elijah, to wit, who were those 7000. the oracle of God speaketh of, 
1 Reg. 19 18. R●m. 11. 4.  who never bowed the knee to Baal? In what city, town, or country dwelled they? the prophet could not have satisfied at that time this demand, for he thought himself to be there left alone: the children of Israel (saith he) have forsaken thy covenant, thrown 
1 Reg. 19 10. 14.  down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword: and I, even I only am left, and they seek my life to take it away. If I should put the like question to you, who were thosein the age immediately before Christ came in the flesh, who sincerely expounded the law, and gainsaid the Scribes and Pharisees, their corrupt glosses refuced by our Saviour, Matth. 5. 21. in what city or town dwelled 
Matth. 5. 21. Matth, 23. 16.  they? What writers speak of them which lived before Christ's time? I know you would be to seek for answer. When the woman 
Apoc. 12, 6.  in the Apocalypse fled into the wilderness, where she was fled one thousand, two hundred and threescore days; and the saints, Heb. 11. wandered in wildernesses, and lay in dens and caves of the earth, can you tell me into what wilderness she fled, or they wandered? In what caves and dens they lay? Yet have many worthy champions of our faith met with you even in this field, and come off with credit, as Abbot against Hill. Usher do success. ecclesi●…. Fox acts and monuments. Field of the church. Humphrey his answer to Campi●n his third reason. The author of Catalog●● test. veritatis. Doctor White in his way. Iohan. Munster in Vortleg. nobilis discursus. Joachimi Camerarii, histor.. narratio de fratrum orthodoxorum ecclesia in Bohemia, Moravia, and Polonia. Ioh. Lidii Waldensis, The publisher of the history of the Waldenses in France, for 400 years and more. Nichol. Vignier eccles. histor.. Birkeck the protestants evidence. Peruse AEneas Sylv. his story of the Bohemians, Fascic. rerum expetendarum & fugiendarum, & you ●hal find more for the continuance of our Church till Luther's time, than ever you will be able to r●●ell. Verily, Rainerius the inquisitor, though entcrtained against us, yet speaketh so much for us that he deserveth 
Rainer. contra Wald. cap. 4. Inter omnes sectas quae ad●uc sunt & fuerunt, non est pernitios●r eccles. Leonistarun idque tribus de ca●sis, 1. quia est diuturnior: aliqui enim dic●n● quod duravit a tempore Sylvestri; alij 〈◊〉 tempore apost. 2. quia est generalior, fere enim nulla tetra est in qua haec secta non sit. 3. qui cum omnes a●i●secta immanitate blasphemiarum in Deum audientibus horrorem inducant Haec scilicet Leonistarum magnam habet speciem pietatis, co quod coram omnibus juste vivant, & bene omnia de Deo creda●t, & omnes articulos qui in Symbolo continentur: solummod● Roman. Eceles. blasphe●ant, & elerum.  a fee of us: the sect (saith he) of the Waldenses or Lionists is more pernicious to the church of Rome then all other sects. First, because it hath been of longest continuance, for some say it hath endured ever since the apostles time. Secondly, because it is more general than any other, for there is almost no country into which is doth not creep. Thirdly, for that all other sects do bring an horror with the heinousness of their blasphemies against God, but this hath a great appearance of godliness, because they live justly before men, and believe all things well concerning God, and all the articles which are contained in the creed, only they speak evil of the Roman church and clergy.  
●o this popish inqui●●tor I will add another Romish nomenclator, namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis, who summeth up all his 
Sectarum, er●●rum, &c. A●acephal●e●●s edit● Fran●●s. 1528.  wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all heretics and sectaries (as he termeth them,) indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrine and practices of the Roman church, and of these he gives us this pedigree; the Lionists begat the Waldenses, the Waldenses the Dulcinists, the Dulcinists the Wickliffists, the Wickliffist● the Hussites, the Hussites the Lutherans. You say these were all bnethrens in iniquity, and joined hands against the church of Ro●e; but yet they agreed not among themselves, not held the same doctrine which the protestants do at this day.  
These are your shifts, but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges: for first, for the doctrine of the Lionists and Waldenses, ●e delivereth it as followeth:  
That the church of Rome is spiritual Babylon, and a harlot; that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ, but only consecrated bread, which by a figure is said to be Christ's body, as it 
Anacephalaeosis l. 3. haeres. Romana ecclesia Babylon est & meretrix; in altari post consecrationem non est corpus Christi, sed d●● taxat panis benedictus, qui in figura corpus Christi dicitur, sicut de Petra dicitur quod erat C●ristus; sansti nihil sciunt quae in humanis aguntur; solus Deus invocandus est; non est purg●torium, nec ullum est veni●le peccatum; consecratio se● benedictio aquae, salis, cinerum, &c. nihil utilitatis habet: indulgentiae, peregrinationes, jubilei, nullius sunt valoris: imagines sanctorum nequ●quam sunt in templis habendae, nec ull● modo venera●dae; exorcis●i sunt vani & inutiles, &c. Cont. walden's. c 5. canonem missae non recipiunt; dicunt quod ●blatio quae ●it in missa à sacerdotibus nihil sit, neque proficit; horas canonicas reprobant; dicunt quod ecclesia erraverit matrimonium clericis prohibend●: sacramentum confirmationis & unctionis reprobant: dicunt quod latina oratio nihil laicis prosit, legendas sanctorum non credunt; sanctam crucem reputant ut simplex lignum; dicunt quod suffragia non prosunt animabus, & quod doctrina Christi & apostolorum sine statutis ecclesiae sufficit ad salutem.  is said of the rock, that it was Christ; that the saints understand nothing of human affairs upon earth, that God alone is to be called upon; there is no purgatory, no venial sins; the benediction of salt, ashes, holy water, &c. hath no profit in it; indulgences, pardons, and jubilees are of ●o worth; the images of saints are not to be kept in churches, nor to be worshipped; exorcisms are vain and unprofitable.  
Whereunto Rainerius addeth, the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the mass; they say that the offering which is made in the mass by the priest is nothing, nor doth any way profit; they dislike canonical hours; they say, that the church did err in forbidding priests marriages; they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extreme unction, they condemn latin prayers, and say they do the people no good; they believe not the legends of saints; they esteem the holy cross no other than simple and bare wood; they affirm, that prayers for the dead, do not at all profit the souls of the departed; and lastly, that the doctrine of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation.  
If any desire to read more concerning the doctrine of the Lionists, Albigenses, and Waldenses, and their agreement with the present reformed churches, in every point of moment, I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary, in the year of our lord, 1508. extant in Orthwin●s Gr●tius, and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis, Plichdor●ius, and others against the Waldenses set forth by James Gretzer at Ingolstad, An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrine from these Waldenses or Lionists, the same Wimpina clearly testifieth; Wickliff, faith he, sucked heresies which he endeavoured 
Wimp. ana●●ph. l. 3. in prol. Wickliff, quas anglis inferre nixus fuit baeres●s ex Waldensibus johanneque Lugdunensi d●suxit. Dulcinus prioribus Waldensium erroribus infectus totam ferme Europam instuporem vert●●; & quamvis discerptus, & ossa ejus concremata sint & in ventum dispersa nec propterea haec pestis omninò deleri potuit, quin adhuc in Triden●inis montibus ubi idem Dulcinus initia haerescos jecit, aliquae ejus extant reliquiae. Wimp. l. 4. in prologo. Perspectum ex h●● tandem a●●cep●al●●si habes, si rite memoria recorderis, ex Anglia in Bohemiam, ex Bohemia in Saxoniam, hoc est, ut vetustiora mittamus, ex O●ionia Pragam; ex Praga Wittenberga●●●reses ●●●cessisse: ad●o ut illas sibi ipsis velut successionariis vicibus per manus, Wickliff, H●● & Lut●●r tradidisse credantur, ut sit nihil dictum nunca Lutheranis, quod dictum ●●n ●●●ra● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wickliffistis Hussitisque.  to bring into England from the Waldenses, and John of Lion, ringleaders among heretics. And in the same book, p. 21. he saith, That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord, 1306. was tainted with the errors of the Walders●s; and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement; and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulci●●sts even to this day. And in the prologue of his fourth book, he casts up the total sum in this manner, out of this recapitulation of he●esies, ●f thou keepest it well in thy mind, thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia, out of Bohemia into Saxony, that is, ●o let pass those things which are more ancient, how they made a progress from Oxford to Prague, from Prague to Wittenberg; so that Wickliff, H●ss, and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand; whence it appears, that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day, which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wick●●ffists and Hussites. This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist, and a witness beyond exception against them, is worth gold, and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites, a pretions' stone well known, yet taken out of the head of a toad; for no better is this Wimpina, full himself of the poison of popery, and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches.    

PARAG. XV. Divine faith not to be built upon human stories or records.  

CHALLENGE.  
If they cannot satisfy us in all these demands (in which alone we offer to join issue with them) then do we think the day to be ours. If they can name any who did both believe and profess the protestant doctrine in all points, let them do it; and then, if we do not disprove them, the day is theirs. And seeing all is brought to this issue, we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point, and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto, we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply, as not direct to our purpose: which is, to find out a true Catholic and visible church.   

Answer.  
To answer you in the doctrinal point, though we could not satisfy you in these your historical demands, neither should your faith gain any thing by it, nor ours lose; for the main and leading question between us, is, which church, yours or ours, holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved; and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church, of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly, Deum non potest habere patrem, qui ecclesiam non habet matrem, he cannot have God for his father, who hath not the church for his mother; these are quaestiones de fide, in a different degree: now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by human stories, as Ballarmin rightly deduceth; for human 
Bellar. lib 2. de sacra●. cap. 21.  stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam, cui falsum subesse potest, that is, make or beget an human faith, or rather credulity subject to error, not a divine and infallible belief, that must be built upon surer ground. Although you could prove your present Romish belief to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresy, and as universally spread as the Arian, or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian, this would not win you the day; did all the ecclesiastical stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility, but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church; yet such a proof being meet human, would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon: on the contrary, if we can prove evidently by the written word of God, that our faith, & not yours, is that precious faith once given to the saints, and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists, and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times, we need not allege any stories or records for the continuance of our church; for we have God's promise in the old, and Christ's in the new, that the church professing entirely that faith grounded on God's word, shall continue to the end. And the redeemer shall come to Zion: as for me this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord, 
I●●. 59 20, 21.  my words, which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever. And this is the word of faith which we preach. And behold I am with you unto the end of the world. Wherefore 
Rom. 10. 8.  since all in the end must be brought to this issue, whether our 
Deut. 13, 14.  church or yours hath kept safe the most precious depositum of the apostolic faith; we wish your learned to encounter us principally in this point, not but that we will be ready to answer you in all other points whatsoever, but because it is to small purpose to contend merely about the outworks, and leave the main forts and castle untouched. As for your challenging words (If, &c.) I return them upon yourself, because you speak of all points, I say, if you can name any that professed the present Romish doctrine in all points within 1000 years after Christ, let them do it; then, if we do not disprove them, the day is theirs: and for the most points of greatest moment, show me any for 600. years, and let the day be yours, Hic rodus hic saltus; as for us we are in no danger of your (if, &c.) for we say it is needless to name any such who in all points taught our doctrine; it is sufficient to produce some eminent persons in all ages who endeavoured to stop the inundation of your Romish errors and superstitions, as it continually broke into the church, especially if they held no substantial doctrine of faith contrary to that which we now believe and teach; besides these eminent persons and standard-bearers of the Gospel, we doubt not but there were many thousands others, both in your Romish church, and elsewhere, who never bowed the knee to B●●l, nor received any ●●rk of the beast. At this last answer of some of our men you ●ibble, saying.    

PAR. XVI. Of making open profession of faith in time of persecution.  

CHALLENGE.  
ridiculous it is to answer hereunto, as some do, that there were true believing protestants when Luther began, but durst not for fear of fire profess their faith; this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all, but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold, Christ saying of such, He that denyeth me before men, I will deny him before my father in heaven.   

Answer.  
Bellarmin upon the by acknowledgeth that the Hussites and Waldenses continued till Luther's time, who (as appeareth by the rubrics of your own stories) signed the faith we now profess, not 
Bellar. de S●●. lib. 2.  only with ink, but with blood; which hath proved so fruitful seed of the church, that if the harvest of the next century be answerable to the last, you will be constrained to blot Catholic out of the title of your church, and leave only Roman. Besides many noble standard-bearers of the protestant religion, who bad defiance to the whore of Babylon, we say, (and disprove it if you can) that there were many thousands who refused her cup of abominations, and (in private) detested her fornications, howsoever they made no open profession of the faith; neither will it hence follow that they were hypocrites; this is too hard and uncharitable a censure. Nicodemus was no hypocrite, though he came to Jesus but by night, and (as it were) by stealth. Nor Joseph of Arimathea, though he made no open show of his love to Christ till after his death; much less were the Disciples hypocrites, who according to Christ's commandment fled from city to city, and sought by all means to keep o●t of the eye and walk of their persecutors; what public or open profession of the christian faith made those saints, S. Paul and S. Helary speak of, who lived and died in deserts, and hid themselves in caves and dens of the earth? It is the judgement of some of your divines, that in the dreadful and dismal persecution of antichrist, the Pope himself shall profess his faith in secret. If to make no open profession of faith is to be a 
Suarez, lib. 5. cont sect. Ang.  lukewarm hypocrite, what hypocrites shall the Romish priests be, who shall not dare openly to celebrate mass in the great persecution of antichrist toward the end of the world, as your Rhemists and Tapperus imply? You yourself and those of your religion, especially 
Tapper. artic. 16. de Sacrif. M●ss●. R●em. Annot. in A●●●. 12. 6.  priests and Jesuits, make no open profession of your faith here in England, yet you would not be thought to be hypocrites. Be not too rash in your censures, lest you slander your own mother's children. Those God threatneth to spew out of his mouth who are neither hot nor cold, that is, those who have no zeal of God's truth burning in their hearts; those deny Christ before men, who being called to make a goodprofession, as Christ did before Pontius Pilate, either directly or indirectly deny the faith, as your Jesuited equivocators do renounce their priesthood & calling; such as deny Christ in this sort, we deny them, protesting against such protestants, who are nothing less than what they are named.    

PAR. XVII. Of the first conversion of Britains, and English to the faith.  

CHALLENGE.  
Or if your men fly this difficulty, we will join issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion, unto which we Englishmen were first converted by Austin a monk, a man of God, sent by Gregory the great, bishop of Rome, more than a 1000 years since.   

Answer.  
The Philosophers contend not more about the head and springs of Nilus: than our English antiquaries about the source or rather the golden conduit which first conveyed the water of life into this Island; some derive this {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} from Simon zealots; 
Gold-fl●●ing vain, Men●log. Gr●c. decim● die Ma●● festi Simonis, Simon qui & Nathaniel dictus Africa●● percurrens pr●dicavit Christ. & multos, &c. Bed. hist. Ang.  some from S. Paul; others from Joseph of Arimathea; and some few from King Lucius, Whonbeda calleth the founder of the faith among the Britains; all fetch it from a higher & more noble pipe than you. You are the first whom ever I read to affirm, that we Englishmen were first converted to the christian faith by monk Austin, who, when he came first into this island, found among the Britains an Archbishop and 7. bishops, and 2000 monks in Bangor, and what a world of christian people may we think besides? Even in Kent itself, where he first and most laboured in God's vineyard, he found a christian church bearing the name of S. Martin built to his hand, and a way made for him even to the court by Lethardus, chaplain 
Greg. lib. 5. ●p. 59: Ad nos perlatum est Anglorum gentem, Deo annuente, velle fieri Christianam.  to Queen Berta or Aldiberga. Greg. himself, Austin's master, doth us this right, he acknowdlgeth it thirsted after the water of life, before he thought of sending Austin and Melitus to quench this thirst; whence was this thirst, but from some knowledge and foretaste of this heavenly liquour? Nemo currit ad gratiam nisi per gratiam; no man followeth after grace but by the power of grace. 
S. Prosper de vocat. gent. Chrysost ser. d● Pen. ec. Hist. Sacr. l. 2.  Saint Chrysostom some hundredth of years before Austin the monk received his commission from Gregory the great, speaketh of the efficacy of the word preached, & the power of the christian faith in this Island. And Sulpitius Severus reporteth, that in the council of Ariminum, assembled An. Dom. 359. three Britain bishops were present, and before this council Athanasius makes mention of certain Britain bishops, who subscribed to the council of Sardi●a, An. Dom. 347. And before this council King Lucius wrote to Eleuther. bishop of Rome to assist him in establishing the christian faith in his dominions, which work God so blessed in his hands, that Dicetus and Reade affirm, that in the place of 28. heathenish priests, called ●lamines and archiflamines, there were substituted in his time so many bishops & archbishops. To go up higher yet, and to come even within sight of the apostles: Theodor●●. affirmeth, that S. Paul after his first imprisonment at Rome, preached the 
Lib. 9 de●●rand. grac. affect.  Gospel among the Britains, and it is not unlikely that then he converted Pudens and Claudia his wife our countrywoman, not so much ennobled by the praise of Martial, 
Claudia c●ruleis cum sit Ruffina Britannis 
Epig. l. 11.   
Edita, cur Lati● pectora plobis habet?  as by the mention of her in the sacred scriptures, Eubulin saluteth 
Rom. 16.  thee, and Pudens, and Claudia. Some yet ascend higher, and from Gildas collect, that England received the faith of Christ about the 
●ild. deexcid. 〈◊〉.  death of Tiberius. What other construction can you make of these his words, interea glaciali frigore rigenti Insulae & velut longissime terrarum secessu soli visibili non proximae: vetus ille non de firmamento solum temporali, sed de summa etiam coelorum arce tempora cuncta excedente universo orbe praefulgidum sui coruscum oftendens tempore ut seimus Tyberii Caesaris summo, &c. By this account it should seem that Britain received the christian faith before Rome; which as I will not ave●●, so I dare confidently affirm on the other side, that Britain had a christian king before Rome had a christian Emperor residing in it; neither do we owe so much to Ro●● for Austin the monk, as Rome oweth to our nation for Constantin● the Emperor. Neither can you blanch this your error by restraining the name of English, when you say, we Englishmen were, &c. to those Anglo-Saxones, who entered this land about, or a little before Austin the monks arrival; for who taketh the word Angli, or Englishmen now in that restrained sense? How know you that we Englishmen now living are descended from those Anglo-Saxones, rather than from the Britains, or Dan●●, or Nor●ans, who all successively inhabited this land? And what if these Angli or Anglo-Saxones in Beda's time distinguished from the Picts, then also inhabiting here, were not first converted to the christian faith by Austin the monk? I am sure Bede affirmeth, that the Eastern Angli or English were fir●● gained to Christ by F●lix, the Northern by Paulinus, and the middle-landers by 〈◊〉; find me ou● if you can a fourth sort of English first converted by Austin the monk. To co●clude, if it b● 〈◊〉 which you affirm, that there is but one true, divine, and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ, and it hath been proved that the christian faith was professed in this island many hundredth of years before Austin the monk his time: it followeth, that we Englishmen were ●●t first converted by Austin to that faith and religion of which you speak, without which no man can be saved: but of Austin and S. Gregory more hereafter.    

PAR. XVIII. Of the faith of Gregory, and Austin the monk.  

CHALLENGE.  
Or if &c. a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven, and therefore must needs be true, and never noted to differ from the common received faith of Christendom in those days, as appeareth by the several epistles of the said S. Gregory, to the bishops of Europe, Asia, and Africa, with all whom he held communion of faith; so as if Christ had a Catholic church on earth (as needs he must) S. Gregory was of it, and being then a true church, we say, (holding still the same tenets) it must needs be so now, God's truth being like unto him without change. And therefore if 〈◊〉, angel should some from heaven, to 〈◊〉 us any other 〈◊〉 th●● we first received, we are not to hear him, the good seed being ever first sowed; and the Galatians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul, for not constantly retaining the first pl●●ted faith.   

Answer.  
If by S. Grego●ies care, and Austin the monks pains, the wells of salvation (which long before that time had been digged in these countries, but in divers places were ●…ed up by barbarous Pay●●ms, sworn 〈◊〉 to the cross of Christ) were any whit opened, and the water clean●●● from 〈◊〉 ●●nish filth and superstition, we bless God and 〈◊〉 the instruments for it. The miracle you speak of if any were wrought, it was to confirm the common christian faith, not any R●mish additions thereunto or superstiti●ns. For the monk himself, he stands or falls to his own master. The water, as S. A●●stin noteth, which passeth through a leaden 〈◊〉 into a garden, waters the garden, and makes it fruitful, yet it produceth 〈◊〉 such good effect upon the pipe: even so ofttimes it falls out, that the instruments of much sanctifying grace to others, retain not the like measure in themselves. Somewhat it was that the British monks, could not persuade themselves that this Austin was (as you say) 〈◊〉 ●an 〈◊〉 from God● his insolent and 
B●d. hist. Aug. lib. 2. cap. 2.  irrespective carriage towards them argued in their judgement, that he could be no scholar of Christ, the great master of humility. And for S. Gregory himself who sent him, though he were a great light and ornament of that age in which he lived, yet the Latin proverb 
Greg. l. 18. in Iob. e. 14. Omne quod loquitur ad divinae autoritatis fundamentum revocet.  was verified even in him, omnibus Punicis malis putridum granum inesse. No pomegranate so sweet, and sound, in which a curious eye may not find one rotten grain. Some rotten grains your own critics have observed in him, but not near the coat, there he is sound. In the substantial points of faith now in controversy between us, which he had occasion to touch upon, he is truly orthodox and clearly ours: I will instance in many several points, and all of them of importance.  
1. Then for the title of ecumenical bishop, and supreme head 
Pope's supremacy.  over all bishops, he declaimeth against it, as profane, sacrilegious, perverse, proud, insolent, anti-christian and Luciferian, contrary to the Gospel, contrary to the canons, and what not? And very ridiculous is the answer of Cardinal Bellarmine hereunto in his second book de Rom. Pont. cap. 31. That universal bishop may be taken two ways, either as it signifietha power and jurisdiction over all bishops, not excluding them from being bishops, but making them subject and subordinate to their head; or, as it may import, that this universal bishop should be the only bishop in the world: ita ut caeteri non sint episcopi, sed vicarii tantum illius, that is, so that all other who hold the name of bishops, should indeed be no bishops, but only his vicars. This answer no way heals the wounds and gashes made by S. Gregory's sharp stile, in inveighing against the title of universal bishop: for neither did John of Constantinople, at whom S. Gregory strikes in these epistles, desire to be the only bishop of the world, nor doth the word universal import any such thing. Neither did Lucifer to whom this Gregory compares this John of Jerusalem, affect to be the only angel; but as S. Gregory speaketh, 
Epist. lib. 4. Epistol. 78.  spretis in sociali gaudio angelorum legionibus ad culmen co●… est singularitatis erumpere. Despising the rank of his fellow a●gells, h● endeavoured to aspire to the top of singularity: and this is that which S. Gregory chargeth this John withal, that he affected, ●●ulli S●b●sse & omnibus praeesse, to be under none, but above all. That he went about 
Epist. lib. 4. Epist. 82.  cuncta Christi membra sibi universalis appellatione supp●●●re. That is, by the title of universal to bring all Christ● members in subjection unto him. From which passages of S. Gregory I frame this argument, he, who usurps the title of universal bishop, in such sort that he labours to be under none, but above all, is a sore-runrer of anti-christ, an imitator of Lucifer in the singularity of his pride; but the bishop of Rome affects to be under none, but above all; ergo, by S. Gregory's logic he is a forerunner of anti-christ.  
2. For justification by inherent righteousness and the perfection 
Inherent righteousness.  thereof, S. Gregory renounceth it, as we do; nay, he goes farther than we in vilifying human righteousness, we say no more but that our best works are not free from some stain of sin; he says in express terms, that if they be examined according to the rigour of justice, they are sins. Upon the ninth of Job thus he commenteth, 
Cap. 11.  ut saepe diximus, omnis humana justitia injustitia esse convincitur, si districte judicetur; that is, all righteousness of man (as we have often said) is convinced to be unrighteousness, if it be strictly judged; as in the same book sanctus autem vir, qui omne virtutis nostrae meritum 
Cap. 12.  esse vitium conspicit, si ab interno arbitro districte judicetur: recte subjungit, si voluerit contendere cum eo, non poterit ei respondere unum pro mille; that is, the holy man, because he sees all the merit of our virtue to be vice, if it be strictly scanned by the inward searcher of hearts and reins; therefore he well adds, ●f he will contend with him, he cannot answer one for a thousand. And the 18 chap. Si enim remota piet at● discutimur, opus nostrum poena dignum est quod remunerari praemiis 
Cap. 18. in Ioh.  praestolamur: If we are examined without mercy our work for which we look for a reward, will prove to be worthy of punishment; and chap. 19 sed tamen sciendum est quia mundos nos ad perfectum reddere, vel vita vel lachrymae non valent, quousque nos mortalitas nostrae corruptionis tenet; that is, we must know, that neither our life, nor our tears can make us perfectly clean, as long as we continue in this frailty of corruption. With what face can you affirm, that the church of Rome holdeth still the tenets which it did in S. Gregory's time? Your tenet now is, that you c●… fulfil the law of God in this life; that by good works you can merit heaven, and more: that you may trust to your inherent righteousness, and that you are justified by it; which if you can reconcile with S. Gregory's assertions above related, I doubt not but you may (in good time) reconcile all christendom.  
3. For perseverance of saints in grace, S. Gregory is as firm as any 
Perseverance,  of the reformed protestant writers: in his 34 book upon Job, he propounds a kind of objection, how it should come to pass that Leviathan hath such power to trample gold, that is, (saith he) men 
Cap. 13.  shining with the brightness of sanctify, 〈◊〉 if it were dirt, by defiling them with vice: sed citius respondemus, quia ●urum quod pravis diab●li persua f●on●bus sterni sicut lutum potuerit, aurum ●…te oculos Dei ●unquam fuit, & qui seduci quandoque non reversuri possunt: quasi habitum sanctitatis ante oculos hominum vide●●tur amittere, sed eam ante oculos Dei nunquam habuerunt; that is, but we speedily ans●er, that that gold, which by the wicked persuasion of the devil, may be cast down as dirt, was never gold in God's eye, &c.  
4. For private ma●●es without communicants, wherein the priest rehearseth the words of Christ, take, eat, and drink ye all of this, 
Private Masses. Dialog lib. 2. cap. 23. T●e●● Dialogues have many things in them unworthy S. Gregory, and therefore are justly excepted against by many learned critics, yet they are ancient and bear his name, and are alleged for his in many points ag●i●st us, and therefore the testimonies alleged out of them are good against the adversary. & militant contra hominem 〈◊〉 non contra rem.  yet eateth and drinketh all himself, and celebrateth a strange kind of supper without any guest at all. I say, in S. Gregory's time, this corruption had not crept into the church, as appeareth by those words; cum que in eadem ecclesia missarum solennia celebrarentur, atque ex more diacon●s clamaret: si quis non communicate, de● locum: and when in the same church, the solemnity of the masses were celebrated, and the deacon cried out after the custom 〈◊〉 if any man communicate not, let him depart or give place. If you here snatch at the word masses, I answer, that the masses S. Gregory and the fathers before him spoke of were nothing but our communion, and the service thereunto belonging, so called, either a ●…ttendis muneribus, for the offerings that were then made, or a▪ di●●ttendis catech●…enis, sending away such as were not thought fit to be admitted to the holy sacrament, of which we shall have further occasion to speak, in answer to your promised reply.  
5. For the Prince's authority over ecclesiastical persons, S. Gregory acknowledgeth not only ordinary priests and bishops, but even the bish of Rome also himself to be subject to the emperor sacerdotes meos tuae ma●●● comisi, I have committed my priests into thy hands. And afterwards in his own person, ego indignus famulus vester. I your unworthy servant. Ego quidem in●imus subjectus, eandem legem per diversas terrarum partes transmitti seci, & quia lex ipsa omnipotenti Deo minime concorder; ecce, per suggestionis me● pag●●am, ferenissimo Dommino ●unciavi; utrobique ergo quae debut exolvi, qui et imperatori obedientiam praebui, & pro Deo quod sensi m●n●●e ●●●ui; that is I your lowest subject have published your command. And here you trey see in what terms the empire and papacy stood, when the Pope held it his duty to publish a decree of the Emperor, though it were against his heart and conscience.  
6. For the canon of scriptures, S. Gregory holds the book of Maccabees in the same rank as we do, profitable to he read for the edification of the church, but not to be produced as inspired by God, and of infallible authority for the confirmation of any point of faith; for being to allege a testimony out of those books, he makes way for it by this preface, de qua re non inordinatè agimus, si 
Iob. lib. 19 cap. 13.  ex libris, licet non canonicis, sed tamen ad adificationem ecclesia editis testimonium proferamus; touching which matter, we do not amiss if we bring forth a testimony out of those books, (viz. the book of Maccabees there cited) which though they are not canonical, yet they are set forth for the edification and instruction of the church.  
7. For adoration of images, he detests it as much as we: see his epistles upon record, si quis imaginem facere voluerit, minimè prohibe; 
Epist ex regist. lib. 9 cap. 9  adorare vero imagines omnibus modis devita. If any man will make an image, forbid him not; but by all means avoid the worshipping of images. Who will now be a papist, when, we see, the Pope is become a zealous Calvinist?  
8. Touching merit of works, S. Gregory teacheth as we do, that 
In 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉▪ 7.  we ought not to repose any confidence in our own merits, non in fletibus, non in acts nostris, sed in advocati nostri allegatione confidamus: let us not trust in our own weeping, and bewailing of our sins, nor in our own acts, but in the intercession of our advocate: and upon 
Lib. 9 c. 11.  Job, si ad virtutis opus excrevero ad vitam, non ex meritis, sed ex venia convalesco, If I grow to any work of virtue, I am restored to life, not by merits, but by pardon. I forbear to alledgemore testimonies out of S. Gregory touching this point, because those many clear passages, which I have produced out of him before, against the perfection of inherent righteousness, by a necessary consequence overthrow all merit of works also.  
9 Touching certainty of salvation, S. Gregory conspireth with the doctrine of the reformed church; for having alleged certain promises of Christ in the gospel to found it upon, thus he concludes; 
Lib. 6. Epist. Indict 15. Ep. 33.  hac it aque fulti certitudine de redemptoris nostri misericordia nihil ambigere, sed spe debemus indubit at a praesumere: non enim muneris sui largitate frustrabitur Deus, sed vires obtinendi prorsus indulget, qui velle concessit, nam jam ipsum desiderant, oppetere donum est: that is, therefore being supported with this certainty, we ought 
The challenge of counsels. Lib. 1. indict. 9 Expla. ●6. The cour●●, Camp. Ratione ●●●tia. In Cant. canticorum, The Lo●ds ●●ppe.  not to doubt, &c. Gregory's doctrine, like ours at this day, is a doctrine of faith and confidence; whereas the doctrine of the church of Rome at this day is a doctrine of distr●… of diffidence.  
10. Touching the power of calling synods or ecclesiastical assemblies, which you now arrogate to the Pope; in S. Gregory his time, as a●●ay before, it was in the Emperors and christian princes, agreeable to the t●●et of the present church of England. S. Gregory taketh notice of the Emperor his Master's command, for the assembling of a synod in Rome itself; juxta Christianissimi & serenissi●i rerum domini jussionem, ad beati Petri apostoli limina cum tuis sequacibus venire to volumus, ut, Authore Deo, aggregata synodo, de eaqua inter not vertitur dub●etate quod justum fuerit judicetur. According to the command of our most christian and ●ra●ions Lord, we require thee to appear at S. Peter's, &c.  
11. Touching the definition of the church, you scoff at us for ●efining the true and most proper church of Christ, which we believe in the creed to be the whole number of God's elect. You term it an Idea Platonica, or an aenreall and invisible body, a chimaera or phantasm: and yet S. Gregory describes the church as we do. Christus secundum praescientiae suae gratiam sanctam ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris extruxit; Christ, according to the grace of his foreknowledge, hath built on holy church of saints eternally persevering in grace: and upon Ezck, una ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium. There is one church of the elect, going before and following after.  
12. Touching the blessed sacrament of the Lord's Supper, to be administered in both kinds, it is evident, that in 
* Hom. 22 in Evang. Sanguis super utrumque postem ponitur, quando non solum ore cordis, sed●tore corporis christi sanguis hauritur. Quid sit sanguis, non audiendo sed bibendo d●●. cistis. The blood is put upon both posts, whethe blood of Christ is drunk with the mouth of the heart, and the mouth of the holy; you have learned what is blood, not by hearing but by drinking: & again, sanguis non in manus fidelium, sed in ora funditur. The blood (of Christ) is poured, not into the hands, but into the mouth of the faithful.  S. Gregory's time, the whole congregation, consisting of the laity as well as the clergy, participated of the holy cup: his words are, pretiost sanguinis effusione genus humanum Chris●us redemit, & sacro-sancti vivifici corporis sui & sanguinis mysterium membris suis tribuit; cujus perceptione corpus suum quod est ecclesia pascitur & potatur, abluitur & sanctificatur. Christ, by the effusion of his most precious blood redeemed all mankind, and giveth to his members the mystory of his most holy quickening body and blood; by the participation whereof, his body, (which is the church) is nourished with meat and drink, and is washed and sanctified. Mark I beseech you, that S. Gregory●ith not, (lib. 4. Dial. cap. 58.) he giveth to his members in the participation of the sacrament, his body and blood for meat and drink, but the mystery of his body and blood, as elsewhere he speaketh, in Evang. Hom. 14. Realiter passus Christus i●cruce, in mysterio patitur, quoties ecclesia mil●●ns sacr●● 〈◊〉 celebrat, & hoc facit in servatoris sui com●●morationem: Christ having suffered really upon the cross suffereth in a mystery, as 〈◊〉 as the church celebrateth his holy supper, and this she doth in remembrance of her Saviour. By comparing of which places, any man may perceive, what S. Gregory meaneth by a mystery, when he opposeth it to that which was done really; I leave it to you to make the inference. And now to point these weapons drawn out of S. Gregory's armoury, and rub them over with the oil of your eloquence; the saith of S. Gregory was never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendom in those days, as appeareth by the several epistles of the said S. Gregory, to the bishops of Europe, Asia, and Africa, with all whom he had communion of faith, so as if Christ had a Catholic church on earth (as needs he must) S. Gregory was of it, and being then a true church, 〈◊〉 say, (holding still the same tenots) it must needs be so now, God's truth being like unto him without change, and therefore if an angel should c●me from heaven to teach us any other doctrine, then that which we have received from S. Gregory, we are not to hear him. If an angel therefore from heaven, teach that the books of Maccabees are canonical; or that the Pope or any other bishop may have the stile of ecumenical bishop, or supreme head over all bishops; or that our best works are not imperfect or defective, if God strictly examine them: or that true holiness and sanctifying grace may be lost; or that masses may be celebrated without communicants; or that princes have not authority over ecclesiastical persons; or that images are to be adored; or that men may merit by their works eternal life; or that a child of God ought to doubt of God's mercy, and may not be assured of his salvation; or that it belongeth not to princes to call ecclesiastical assemblies: or that the church, in the most strict sense, consisteth not of the elect only; or that the whole church consisting of laity as well as clergy may not participate the mysteries of the body and blood of Christ, entirely drinking of the holy cup, as well as eating of the bread: Let him be accursed. Methinks I hear you already cry out with her in the Poet, 
Heu patior telis vulnera facta me●s!   
O● with the eagle, in Julian's m●tto, feeling herself deadly wounded with an arrow feathered out of her own wing, 
Nostris configimur alis.     

PARAG. XIX. Concerning the faith of Constantine.  

CHALLENGE.  
Or lastly, if you desire to go nearer to the times of the apostles, we will join with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great, who first built and opened christian churches, and gave freedom for christians to come together, and to know and publish to the world what was held by them, which before could not so well be done, by reason of the perfec●tions in which the church had been 〈◊〉 then generally eclipsed.   

Answer.  
From S. Gregory you step up immediately to Constantine the great, and at once stride over 300 years, in which time the prime and flower of the Greek and Latin fathers lived and died; would none of them father your Church? You take an oath, if you be magistri in theologia, to expound scripture, non ●isi juxta una●… c●●sensum patrum, according to the unanimous consent of the fathers; this joint consent can very hardly be found in the interpretation of the ●…ures before Constanti●●s time, because few before that time commented upon the holy scripture, at least, whose works are come to our hands; and therefore you should have especially instanced in the fathers from Constantine's time to S. Grego●●s: but as Festus answered Paul, so think I fit to answer you, Ca●…em 
 appell●…●d C●sarem ibis, you have appealed to Constantine, and to Constantine you shall go; of whom I may say truly, that which the Fre 〈…〉 sometimes spoke before him glo●ingly; tu no 〈…〉 ill●● 〈◊〉 faci●…, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Britains by ●●y 〈◊〉; for though Li●…, he●… not Justus, goeth about to rob us of this brooch, and brightest lustre of our nation, denying us the honour of his birth, as you do of his faith; yet I doubt not but to make good against him and you, that Constantine is ours, body and soul: and to resolve you in point of his birth and native soil (which was this our island) I refer you to Baronius: for his faith, to Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomen, Arnobius, Lactantius, Minutius Foelix, Athanasius, Epiphanius, and Greg. Nazianzen, and divers others who lived in the same time, or not long after him. Let the faith generally believed and received in the age wherein this blessed Emperor lived serve as a touchstone to examine our pure and precious, and your drossy and counterfeit faith: and first let us begin with the ground of all faith, the holy scriptures.  
1. We teach, that the canon of the old testament consisteth of 22. books only, excluding the apocryphal which your council of Trent confoundeth with the canonical. Let the first quaere then be, whether did the church in Constantine's time hold with your canon, or ours? To this let the council of Laodicea speak, qua autem 
Can. 59 Non ●p●●tet in eccles●… libros qui s●●t extra Ca●●●ē legere, sed solum Canonic●s veteris & n●vi Testamenti. Qu● autem, &c. A●hanas epist. ●…v. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}‑ {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}‑ {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Epist. de In●…t. verbi. Greg. Nazia●. de veris & S. Srip. V●…o. ul●. I●…tina. Nazi●…. 〈◊〉. Paris.  oporteat legi & in authoritatem recipi, haec sunt, Genesis, Exodus, &c. These books which ought to be read and received as authentical and canonical, are these following, Gen. Exod, &c. In which catalogue none of the apocryphal books are mentioned. Let Athanasius inform us, who reckons but 22. books of the old testament, as we do: and after him Greg. Nazian. most expressly brandeth the apocryphas with a note of bastardy. 
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}  
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman},  
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.   
Which Greek verses a well-willer to your church hath translated into Latin,  

At tua ne libris fallatur mens alienis,  
Hunc habeas certum numerum a me, lector ●●ice,  
Tot nempe Hebr●●, quot sunt elementa, loquelae.  
Quicquid pratorea est, hand inter certa loc andu●.   
The Greek, word for word, is thus to be Englished: I have s●● down 22. books of the old testament, agreeable to the number of the Hebrew letters, ●●d 〈◊〉 ●e found any besides these, ●… to be counted among the true and genuine books of the old Testament. 
T●rtul advers. Hermog. Chrysost. 2. ad Corinth. Hom. 13. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. Athanas. cont. Idol. vid Athanas. de Syn. A●●m. & de incarnat. Christi. lib. 5. divin. institut. c. 4. Cyprianus raptus eximia eruditione divinarum literarum, vt iis solis contentus ess●● quibus fides constat. Theodoret. hist. Eccles. l. 1. c 7. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. S●issel. Archi●pis. Tarin, contra walled. Detestantur signum crucis quod nos ad●●d●●a●●us.   
2. We with Tertullian, adore the ple●●tude of scriptures, a●●ibing to them this perfection, that they contain in them all things necessary to salvation. You maintain on the contrary, that the written word alone is not a sufficient and perfect rule, and therefore you add unto it the unwritten word which you call crad●ion. Which part did Constantine take and the church in his time? let Athanasius be heard in this case, Sufficiunt per se sacroe & divin● us inspiratae lu●rae ad veritatis indicationem; The holy inspired scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the declaration of the truth; let ●a●tanti●● be heard, Cyprian was so ravished with the excellent knowledge of the holy scriptures, that he was content with them alone, upon which faith is built. Let us hear Constantine himself, who sitting in a golden chair as president and moderator in the first and most famous council of Nice, recommendeth the books of the old and new testament to the fathers assembled in that council in these words, the books of the evangelists and apostles, and the oracles of the ancient prophets do plainly instruct us what to conceive of divine matters, therefore setting aside all enmity and discord, let us from the words inspired by God, take the resolution of those things that are in question; which most christian direction of this most noble Emperor swayed much with the fathers in that synod: yet Cardinal Bellarmin makes light of it, and gives the Emperor a slur for it, lib. 4. de verbe Dei non scripto cap. 11. Respondeo hoc testimonium non esse tanti faciendum, erat enim Constantinus magnus. Imperator, non magnus ecclesiae Doctor; I answer, that this testimony is not of so great moment, for Constantine was indeed a great Emperor, but not a great Doctor of the church.  
3. We teach, that the wood of Christ's cross is not to be worshipped at all, much less with divine worship; you teach on the contrary, that the cross of Christ is to be adored, cultu latria, that is, with the highest kind of worship, which is proper to God; so Aquinas determineth, Par. 3. quaest. 25. ●r. 2. Illi exhibemus cultum latriae in quo ponimus ●●em salutis; clamat enim ecclesia, O crux ave, spes unica hoc passionis tempore auge pi●s justitiam, reisque dona veniam: & ibid. Crux Christi in qua Christus crucifixus est tum propter, representationem, tum propter. Christi membrorum coutactum 〈◊〉 adoranda est. We yield divine worship to that in which we put our trust, but we repose the trust of our salvation, saith he, on the cross of Christ; for so the church singeth, all hail, O cross, our only hope in this time of passion, increase righteousness in the godly, and grant sinners pardon; and hereupon concludeth, that the cross on which Crist was crucified, as well because it representeth Christ, as also because it touched the members of his body, is to be adored with divine worshop: by which reason all christians which then lived were bound to worship with divine worship Malchus his ear, and Judas his lips, and the asses back on which Christ rode, and the dust in the floor on which he wrote, and the water in which he washed, and the ointment which was poured upon him, and the soldier's fists that buffered him, and what not that touched any part of his body? Yet Andradius is not ashamed to follow Aquinas 
Ort●od●●. Aplic. lib. 9  his steps, non diffi●emar nos praeclarissimam Christi cruc●m adorare cultu latriae, we do not deny but that we worshop the most excellent cross of Christ with divine worship. And Gretzer treads in the same path in his book De Cruce. And Cardinal Bellarmin scorns to follow any of these, he runs before them all in the idolatrots' 
Lib. de Imag. sanct. cap. 〈◊〉.  worship, not only of the wood of the cross, on which Christ hung, but also of all crosses whatsoever made after that fashion, Nos omnes cruces adoramus, quia omnes sunt imagines verae crucis, we adore all crosses, because all crosses are images of the true cross. Was this the belief or practice of the church in Constantine's time? Let us inquire of S. Ambrose, and he will tell us that S. Helen the mother of Constantine, was far from worshipping the wood of the true cross which she found by miracle; ●●●enit ●itulum, 
Amb. O●●at. de ob●●● Theod. ●mp.  Rege● adoravit, non lignum utique; quia hic gentilis error est, & vanitas impiorum, sed adoravit illum qui pep 〈…〉 lig●● 〈◊〉 she found the title, she adored the king, not the wood verily; that is an heathenish error and wicked vanity, but she worshipped him who hung on the wood. Let us inquire of M●●utius Foelix whether the church in those days worshipped or had crosses in their 
Dialog. ●ctav.  oratories. The heathen● indeed, as he there brings them in, objected it to the christians, that they worshipped the cross, col●nt quod ●erentur: to which jeer of the heathens Mir●ti●● answereth, cruces nec colimus, nec optamns; we ●●ither worship crosses, nor desire them.  
4. We teach with the apostle, that marriage is honourable among all men, and that it is the doctrine of devils to prohibit marriage in any condition of men, be they of the clergy, or of the laity. You maintain the contrary both in your doctrine and practice: 
Iohan. Epist. ad Dracon. multi ex epis. matrimonium non in jet unt. Monachi contra parents liberorum facti sunt: quemeadmodum vicissim episcopos filiorum pat●es & Monachos generis potestatem non quae sivisse animadvertas.  priests among you are tied to a single life, and some of you bl●sh not to say, that a clergy man had better keep a concubine than his married wife, praestat concubinam alere, quam uxerem. Was this the judgement or the practice of the church in Constantine's age? did not bishops and priests then marry? Let Athanasius inform us, who in his epistle ad Dracontium, writeth thus, you may observe many unmarried bishops among us, and many married monks; and again, many married bishops, and unmarried monks. By which testimony of Athanasius it appears that in his time, not only bishops, but monks also might and did marry. Sozomen maketh mention (hist. lib. 1. cap. 11.) of Spiridion the bishop of Cyrus, his wife and children, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. He was married and had children, and it was no disparagement unto him in his ecclesiastical function (word for word,) but he was not therefore 
Bapt. Mant. in Fast. Ecclesiast hist. lib. 3. cap. ●0. Hist. eccles. l. 1. cap. 8. iuxta lat. version. et in Grac. c. 11.  worse or inferior in those things which belong to God. No more was Hilary the famous bishop of Poictou. Nor the father of Nazianzen, who lest his bishopric to his son Gregory, the flower of all the Greek fathers, of whom thus Mantuan 
Praesule patre satus, ●a● tune id jura sinebant,  
Pastoral pedum gessit post funera patris.   
We see the practice in Constantine's time, let us now hear the 
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  judgement of the church touching the practice: Eusebius brings in Clemens inveighing against the despisers and contemners of marriage, in this manner. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}; that is, what will these (marriage haters) condemn the apostles? for Peter and Philip gate children. And Socrates hath a remarkable story to this purpose; there being a motion made in the council of Nice, to deprive married priests of society and conversation with their wives, old Papnutius, though himself an unmarried man, yet mainly opposed that motion, dissuading the fathers of the council from laying such a heavy yoke upon the clergy, alleging, that marriage is honourable among all men, and the bed undefiled. That all men could not bear such a restraint: that too much strictness in this kind would be hurtful to the church: that the company of a man with his lawful wife, is chastity.  
5. We teach, that the elements of bread and wine are types-and figures of the body and blood of Christ, which we truly receive in the sacrament of the Lord's supper spiritually by saith, not carnally with the mouth. You on the contrary, that the bread and wine are turned by transubstantiation into the true body & blood of Christ, which you believe that you receive with the mouth and chew with the teeth. Did the church of Christ in Constantine's time believe transubstantiation, or carnal manducation? Let us heat what 
Ser●●● in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quis di●●rit v●● b●….  Athanasius, and Eusebius, and Greg. Nazianzen, and S. Ephrem have delivered touching this point: Athanasius illustrating those words of our Saviour in the 6. of John, it is the spirit which quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, &c. saith. Hic de utroque, ●ar●● si●ct 
P●…s in bib●…. 〈◊〉. ●0. E●…. ●●eo●● patri●●●●●: {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  & spiritu suo locutus est, & spirit●… a c●r●e discrim●n a vit. ut: non solum in eo quod oculis apparebat sed naturam quoq●● invisi●●le● credentes, disceremus ea quae loqueretur non car●●lia esse, sed spiritualia: quot enim hominibus corpus ejus suffecrffe● ad ●●bu●, ut universi mundi alimonia fieret? Sed propterea ascensio●●● s●● in c●lum mentionem fecit, ut eos a corporals intellect●● abstraheret, ac deinde carnem suam de qua locutus erat, cibum è supernis ●●lestem & spiritualem alimoniam & ab ipso donanda● intelligerent; quae enim locutus sum vobis, inquit, spiritus & vit● su●●. Quod perinde est ac si diceret, corpus meum quod ostenditur & datur pro mundo in cibum; dabitur, ut spiritualiter unicuique tribuatur & fiat singulis tutamen praeservatioque ad resurrectionem vitae aeternae. Here he speaketh both of his flesh & spirit, & distinguisheth his spirit from the flesh, that believing not only that which appeared to outward sense, but also his invisible nature, we might learn that those things which he sp●ke were not carnal, but spiritual: for to how many men would his body have sufficed for meat, that it might be the food of the whole world? But therefore he maketh mention of his ascension into heaven, that he might withdraw them from the corporal understanding of his words, and that they might understand, that the flesh of which he spoke was a supernal meat, a celestial and spiritual food to be given by him unto them. The words (saith he) which I have spoken unto you, are spirit and life, which is all one as if he had said, my body which is given for the world, shall be given for meat, that every man may receive it spiritually, and that it may be made to each a strengthening and preserving them to the resurrection to eternal life. Eusebins writeth thus of the sacrament, Christus cum 
Dem●…. 〈◊〉. vang. lib. 1.  se●●sum singulare sacrificium patri obtulisset, statuit {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, quam memoria● {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in mensa ejus celebramus. Christ when he had offered himself once for all a sacrifice to his father, appointed us to offer the memory of that sacrifice to God: which memory we celebrate by the sacred signs 
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  or symbols of his body and ●loud upon his table, and in like man●●r in his 8. book he saith, that Christ delivered to his dis●iples the sy●bol● of his divine dispensation, viz. bread and wine, that is, co●…ding them to make an image or representation of his own body. S. Basil, and S. Greg. Naz●anz. accord with Eusebius: S. Basil in his Liturgy calleth the sacrament all bread {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} co●poris domini, that is, a type 〈◊〉 figure resembling Christ's ●ody, or answering unto it. And Greg. N●z●a●z. 
Ep●tap. soror. Gorgon. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}.  pleaseth himself with the same word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, If her hand treasured up at any time any part of the holy signs or antityp●● of the precious body and blood of Christ, that she mingled with her tears, etc▪  
Out of these and the like phrases of the fathers, thus I frame an argument against you: no types, figures, images, representations of Christ's body, are ●is very body. But the church in Constanti●●● age believed the elements of bread and wine to be images, as Eusebius▪ types or antitypes, as S. Basil and Nazianzeu calleth them; to whom Bellarmin adjoineth Theodoret in his first dialo●ne. A●●▪ carius Egyptius in his Homilies, and Dionysius in his Hierar●h●▪ 
B●lla●. lib. 2. de sacramentis cap. 16.  and confesseth that they spoke of the elements of bread and win● after consecration, therefore the elements of bread and wine after consecration are not the very body and blood of Christ. The mi●● in this syllogism is confessed, the major is strongly ●ounded on tha● axiom. Opposit● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cide●●●imul attribui ●equeunt; that is, opposite things cannot be affirmed at the same time of one and the same thing, but a shadow and a body, an image and a face, 〈◊〉 ●●gn and the thing signified by it are among the rank of those opposites which Logicians call relative opposita, and therefore as it i● a good argument, this is Alexander's picture, therefore it is not Alexander himself; this is Nebuchadnezz●r● image, therefore it is not Nebuchadmezz●● himself; this is a shadow, therefore it is not a body▪ so likewise it followeth necessarily, the bread and wine after consecration in the judgements of Eusebius, Ba●●, Na●…. 〈◊〉, D●…us, Theodoret, and others of that ag●, are types, images, shadows, figures of Christ's body and blood▪ the●●ore they are not turned into the very body & blood of Christ.  
6. We teach with the apostle to the Hebrews that now (to wit) since Christ's offering himself upon the altar of the cross for the redemption of the whole world, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. You teach on the contrary, that there is daily offered in the mass, a true, real, and properly so called propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead. Whether did the church in Constantine's time celebrate your mass, or our communion? I am sure Minutius Foelix implieth, that in his time the christians had no altars. Putas (saith he) nos occultare quod col●mus, si delubra & arras non habemus? Dost thou think what we conceal what we worship, because we have no images nor altars? And as they had no material altars in his time, so neither corporal sacrifices. Hostias domino offeram (saith Minutius) cum sit lita●ilis, &c. 
* Hostias domino offeram, cum ●it litabilis hostia bonus animus? qui innocentiam colit, Deo supplicat; qui ●ustitiam, D●o libat, qui hominem periculo surripit, optimam victiman cedit; haec nostra sacrificia, haec Dci sacra sunt.  Shall I offer sacrificeto God, to whom▪ good mind is an acceptable sacrifice? he that keeps innocency supplicates to God; he who doth justice, offers to God; he who saves a man from danger, slayeth the best sacrifice: 
Lactan. lib. 6. divinar. Institut. cap 〈◊〉. Rep●diata victimarum legalium mult●tudint, unam requirit Hostiam: ni●●rū, ut quisque se concil●et & offerat Deo seipsum sistens Deo in hostiam ●●ventem per rationale obs●q●ium immolans sacr●ficum l●●dation is, quandoquid●m multitudo illarūle●alium victimarum ●xp●osa f●i● un● in h●c s●culo●● fine app●obata est semel oblata in abolitionem peccati.  these are our sacrifices. I wonder how he forgot the sacrifice of the mass: certainly if Christ be there really offered, he is opti●● a victima, the best sacrifice that ever was offered. Lactantius enameleth the former golden sentence of Minutius; Hic verus cultus est in quo mens colentis seipsam Deo immaculatam victimam sistit: this is the true worship wherein the mind of the worshipper offereth itself as an ●●spotted sacrifice to God. If these testimonies are not of strength enough to demolish your material altars, and abolish your sacrifice of the mass; behold, Eusebius, Saint Chrysostom, and Saint Basil offer us, as it were, axes and hammers to beat them down. Saint Basil on the 1. of isaiah writeth thus; refusing the multitude of the legal sacrifices, he requires this one, that every man should reconcile himself, and offer up himself to GOD as an holy and lively sacrifice by his reasonable service, offering unto God the sacrifice of praise; forasmuch as the multitude of those legal sacrifices is now abolished, one sacrifice in this end of the world is approved, once offered for the abolishing of sin. Eusebius Demonst. Evang. l. 1. interpreteth the clean obla●ion fore-spoken by the prophet Malachy (which all papists take for the sacrifice of the mass) to be our hearts purified by faith, and the incense there mentioned to be the {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, incense of prayer, and the sacrifice of the new testament to be a contrite spirit, and speaking of the Lord's supper; he saith that therein we offer {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, a memorial of Christ's sacrifice; 
Homil. 17. in epist. ad Heb.  and S. Chrysostom, we offer the true sacrifice of Christ, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, or rather we offer a commemoration of that sacrifice. I● S. Chrys●stome had believed, as you now do, that the true body of Christ is properly offered, and his blood truly shed in the daily sacrifice of the mass, he should have corrected his former correction of himself, and said, what said I, we rather offer a memorial of Christ's sacrifice? nay rather we offer the very sacrifice itself, Christ's body and blood, and that truly and properly.  
7. We teach, that images may not be set up in churches to worship 
Epiphan▪ Io Hierosol. ●p●st. ex tat inte● opera sancti Hieron Tom. 〈◊〉. Cum venissem ad villam quae dicitur Anabla●●ra, vidissemque ibi pr●teriens lucernā●rdentem, & intrassem ut o●arem, in ven● ibi velum pendens in ●●●ibuse●usdem ecclesiae tinctum atque d●p●ctum, & habens imaginem quasi Christi vel sancti cujusdam: cum ●●go hoc vidissen in ecclesia Christi contra au●oritatem scripturarum hominis pendere imagine●, scidi illud velum; & magis, dedi consilium custodibus ejusd●m loci ut paupere● m●rtuum obvolverent, & deinceps pr●cepi in ecclesia Christi istiusmodi v●la quae contra relig●onem nostram veniunt non appendi. In epist. ad Constant. Augus●. ●●ds igitur glori●●j●smodi, & dignitatis splendores lucentes & f●lgur●●tes eff●giare m●●t●is & inanima●●s coloribus & ●●bratili pictura possit? Di●log● Octavius.  God by them, much less to worship the images themselves; you on the contrary maintain the erecting, censing, clothing, kissing, kneeling before, and worshipping of images. From which idolatry & superstition, how fat the church was in Constantine's age, appears by the canon of the council of Eliberis, the act of Epiphanius▪ the judgement of Eusebius, and the joint testimony of Minutius Felix, and Lactantius. The 36 canon of the council of Eliberis is very express against images and pictures in churches, placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere, ne quod colitur aut adoratur, in parictibus depingatur. It seemed good to us, or we have determined, that no images or pictures be in churches, lest that which is worshipped and adored be painted on the walls. When S. Epiphanius saw that canon neglected▪ and the law of God violated in that point, his zeal kind●ed within him▪ & he tore down a v●il & rent it in the middle, which he found hanging on the church walls at Anablathra, because it had on it an image as it had been of Christ or some saint. More▪ over, he gave charge to those of that place, not to hang up any more such veils against the express command of God. Eusebius was no better affected to images than Epiphanius; for in his epistle to Constantia, who desired him to send her an image of Christ, he contendeth by many arguments, that no true image of Christ may be drawn, neither according to his divine nature, nor according to his human: not according to his divine, because no man hath ●ver seen or can see that▪ not according to his human, because we have learned that his human nature or form of a servant is ●ingled with, or 
Lib. 2. de origerroris cap. 19 Quare ●on est dub●um quin religio nulla sit, ubicunq simullac●um est; nam si religio ex divinis rebus est, divini autem nihil ni●●in coelest●●us; carent ergo religone simulac●a▪ quia nihil potest esse coeleste in ea re quae ●it ●x t●rra▪ Dei autem cujus spiritus & num●n ubique diffusum, abesse nunq●a● po●e●● semper utique in▪ go su●ervacan●a. lib 6. de ver● Cultu. cap. 2. Accendunt lum●na Deo ve●ut in teneb●is agenti. Num mentis comp●s p●tandus est qui auctori & datori l●mi●is candelarum a● cereorum lumen offered pr● muncr●? Concil. Elib. ca●on ●7. Probib●ndu●● ne Lucerna● publice acce●dant: si sacere contra interdictum vol●erint, ab●●inca●● a comm●ni●●●  united to the glory of his divine dignity: and who will undertake with dead colours to express the brightness of that glory and dignity? Minutius Felix, upon another reason, dislikes the dedicating of any image to God: put a● nos occultare quod credimus si delubra & ar as non habemus? quod enim simulacrum Deo fingam, eum, si recte existimes, sit dei homo ipse simulacrum? Dost thou think that we conceal what we worship, because we have no place for images nor altars? I pray what images shall I make to God, seeing if we judge rightly, man himself is God's image? Lactantius is warmer in the cause, he concludes peremptorily, that religion and images cannot stand together: wherefore out of doubt there is no religion where there is an image, (therefore out of doubt none in your church where there are so many images) for if religion be a divine thing, and there is nothing divine but in things that are heavenly, images therefore are void of religion, because there can be nothing▪ hea●enly in that thing which is of the earth. The same Lactantius, lib. 2. divinarum institut. cap. 2. excludes all images, even of the true God, as needless and super●●uous; the image of a man seems then to be needful when the man himself i● away, but it is of no use when he is present, therefore the image of God is ever superfluous and of no use, because his spirit and deity being everywhere present, can never be absent from us. You see he lays hard at your images, and he endeavours as vehemently to blow out your wax lights. They light candles to God as if he were in the dark: can he be thought well in his wits who offers candles or wax lights to God for a gift, who is the author and giver of all light? If this strong breath of Lactantius, being but single, cannot blow out the lights that burn continually in your churches: yet methinks the joint and conspiring breath of all the fathers assembled in the council at Eliberis cannot but puff them quite out. It is to be forbidden that candles be publicly lighted; if any do presume to do otherwise, let them keep from the communion. In fine, to draw the arrow you have put into Constantine's bow to the head against the errors and superstitions of your present Romish church, prove to me by any good and uncontrollable testimony, that public service in an unknown tongue, or masses without communicants, or communion of the laity without the cup, or making images of the three persons of the Trinity, or worshipping images, or crosses, or selling pardo●● for the release of souls out of purgatory, or elevation, or circumgestation of the host in pompous procession, or praying upon beads or hallowing medals, and Agnus Dei's, or blessing salt, spital, water, &c. or christening bells, and galleys, or going on pilgrimage to the images of Christ, our Lady, and other saints, or whipping themselves in penance for their own sins, or the sins of others, or such like customs and fites of your now Romish church were in practice in Constantine his time. Prove that the treasury of saints merits, and works of supererogation, or unwritten traditions in matter of faith, or justification before God by inherent righteousness or any sin in its own nat●re venial, and not against the law of God but only beside it, or esteeming the apocryphal books of the old testament for canonical scriptures, or equalizing the Latin vulgat translation of the old and new testament to the originals in Hebrew & Greek, or seven sacraments properly so called, or the Pope's infallibity, or his transcendent authority, to gratify or disannul the acts of general counsels, to canonize saints, to dispense with oaths and vows, to depose kings, and dispose of their kingdoms, or the suspending the effect of the sacrament upon the intention of the priest, or accidents without subjects, or rats and mice eating Christ's body, or the putting it in many thousand places at once, or any the like assertions of your Romish doctors were any part of Constantine's belief, and the day shall be yours.  
In the mean time, if, as your challenge, and the promise of your friends deeply engage you, you shall think of a reply to this my answer, I require three things of you.  
First, that according to our Saviour his rule, you meet the same measure to me which I meet to you, by setting down my whole answers in my own words, that the reader may see what you answer to each particular, and what you balk, as also how direct and pertinent your replies shall be.  
Secondly, that you be not guilty of that which Pythagoras 
Contra sole● n● l●quitor▪ ne de pelle & Hydra labores, Herculem omittas.  strictly forbade his scholars, viz. speaking against the sun, that is, gainsaying most clear and evident truth.  
Thirdly, that you forget not Tully's caveat, that you spend not your skill, and waste your colours upon the lion's skin, and omit the pourtraying the body of Hercules; that is, that you spend not your pains and paper in carping at circumstantial passages on the by, and leave the main unto●ched.  
If you duly observe these conditions, I doubt not but that God in the farther search into these points will an●int your eyes with the eye-salv● of the spirit, as he did the eyes of Albertus Pighius, in perusing the works of Calvin; which 
Minutius Feli● in Dial. Oct●vius. vicimus uterque, n● ut ille ●e● v●ctor est, ita ●g● triump●ates ●●r●ris.  though he read with set purpose to resute them, yet he was himself refuted by them and reclaimed from d●verse errors, especially in the main point of justification, and thereby being conquered by his adversary, obtained the noblest victory of all over himself, in conquering his own errors.   
Deo laus sine fine.   
FINIS.