A SPEECH OF THE honourable NATHANAEL FIENNES, (second Son to the right Honourable the LORD SAY) in answer to the Third Speech of the LORD GEORGE DIGBY.  
Concerning BISHOPS and the city of London's Petition, both which were made the 9th of Feb. 1640. in the honourable house of COMMONS.  
In which is plainly cleared the several objections, that are made against the Londoners Petition, and also the great and transcendent evils of Episcopal Government, are demonstrated and plainly laid open.  
Printed in the year. 1641.   

A SPEECH OF THE honourable NATHANAEL FIENNES, In the House of COMMONS the 9 of February. 1640,  
Mr. Speaker,  
TWo things have fallen into debate this day.  
The first, concerning the Londoners Petition, whether it should be committed or no.  
The other concerning the government of the Church, by Archbishops, Bishops, &c. whether it should be countenanced or no?  
For the first, I do not understand by any thing, that I have yet heard, why the Londoners Petition should not be committed, or countenanced.  
The exceptions that are taken against it, are from the irregularities of the delivery of it, and from the Subject matter contained in it.  
For the first, it is alleged that the long tail of this blazing star, is ominous, and that such a number of Petitioners, and such a number that brought the Petition to the House, was irregular; hereunto I answer, that the fault was either in the multitude of the Petitioners, or in their carriages, and demeanours: if a multitude find themselves aggrieved, why it should be a fault in them to express their grievances more than in one, or a few, I cannot see, nay, to me it seems rather a reason that their Petitions should be committed, and taken into serious consideration, for thereby they may receive satisfaction, though all be not granted that they desire. But if we shall throw their Petition behind the door, and refuse to consider it, that it may seem an act of will in us. And whether an act of will in us, may not produce an act of will in the people, I leave it to your consideration. Sure I am, acts of will, are more dangerous there then here, because usually they are more tumultuous. All laws are made, principally for the quiet and peace of a kingdom; and a law may be of such indifferent nature many times, that it is a good reason to alter it, only, because a great number desires it, if there were nothing else in it, and therefore I do not see that the number of Petitioners is any good reason, why it should not be committed, but rather the contrary.  
Now for their carriage, there came indeed, three or four hundred of the 15000, some of the better sort of them, and there might be good reason for it. I have heard that there was brought a Petition to some privy counsellors, with a thousand hands to it, and being brought only with six men, they were answered, that they six might write those thousand hands; if there were a thousand that joined in the Petition, why did they not come too? And we heard it objected but the other day, in this House against the Ministers Petition, that there were indeed seven or eight hundred names to it, but two hands only. Therefore it was not without cause, that a considerable number should come, with a Petition signed by so many, but for any disorder in their carriage, I saw none; for upon an intimation in one word from this House, they forthwith retired to their dwellings. As for the subject matter of the Petition, three exceptions are taken against it.  
First, that divers things are contemptible in it, as that about Ovide Amore, set forth in English, and other such things.  
secondly, that in many things their discourse was altogether irrational, for that they argue from personal faults of Bishops against the office itself of Bishops, and in other things argue from effects that proceed from it by accident, as if they did fly out of it.  
And in the last place, that their prayer and conclusion is bold and presumptuous, desiring so boldly an abolition of standing laws. To the first I answer, that some things may seem contemptible in themselves, which are not so in their causes, nor in their effects, as the suffering of such lascivious Pamphlets to be printed, and published, when other profitable writings are suppressed, doth discover a principle, that looseness and profaneness, (which will help to bring in superstition) is more suitable to their hierarchy then the contrary, which makes them connive at such things, as are apt to produce looseness and lewdness, and this is no contemptible effect, nor doth it proceed from a contemptible cause.  
In the next place, for that which seems irrational in the way of their discovery, divers things may seem to be personal faults, which indeed are derived unto the persons from the office, or from the circumstances thereof, I mean their revenues, and dignities, on the one side, and the Ceremonies on the other side. For most of the things complained of, as silencing, and thrusting out of godly and painful Preachers, bringing in Innovations in doctrine, and worship, and the like; although they may seem personal and accidental faults, yet if we follow them to their last resort, we shall find, that their worldly wealth and dignities stir them up to do this, that their sole and arbitrary power over the clergy, and in matter ecclesiastical, enable them to effect it, and the Ceremonies both new and old, serve as instruments, and means, whereby they effect it.  
In the last place, that their prayer in the conclusion of their Petition, is bold, or presumptuous, I do not see there is any reason so to esteem of it: for if they had taken upon them to have altered any thing upon their own authority, or had imperiously required the Parliament to do it, than it might deserve such a stile, but when they come as humble suppliants, by way of Petition, desiring the altering of laws, that have been found burdensome unto them, And that of the Parliament, where, and wherein, only old laws may be repealed, and new laws may be made, they come in the right manner, to their right and proper place, and therefore have done nothing, boldly, or presumptuously, but orderly, and regularly, and therefore ought not to receive any check or discouragement, in the way that they have taken.  
Now Sir, concerning the Government of the Church, by archbishops, Bishops, &c. which also hath been spoken unto, whereas it is desired that the evils, and inconveniences should be showed, which arise not from the persons, but from the office itself of Bishops, I shall apply my discourse particularly to that point. But first, I shall crave leave to say a word or two, in answer to what hath been alleged for the credit of the Government by Bishops. First, that it is as ancient as Christian Religion, and that it hath continued ever since the time of Christ and his Apostles; as for this, I do not pretend to have so much knowledge in antiquity, as to confute this out of the fathers and ecclesiastical histories, (although there are that undertake that) only one sentence I have often heard cited out of Saint Jerome, that in the primitive times, Omnia communi Clericorum Concilio regebantur: and truly so far as the Acts of the Apostles, and the new testament goeth, which was the ancientest, and most primitive time of Christianity; I could never find there any distinction between a Bishop and a Presbyter, but that they were one and the very same thing. In the next place, that which is alleged for the credit of episcopacy, is, that our reformers and martyrs were many of them Bishops, and practised many of those things now complained of, and that in other reformed Churches where Bishops are not, they are desired. For the martyrs and reformers of the Church that were Bishops. I do not understand that, that was any part of their reformation, nor of their martyrdom; I have read that whereas Ridley and Hooper had some difference between them in their life time about these things, when they came both to their martyrdom, he that had formerly been the patron of this hierarchy and Ceremonies, told his Brother, that therein his foolishness had contended with his wisdom. As for that which is said, that other reformed Churches where they have not Bishops, yet they are desired, I will not deny but some among them may desire bishoprics, I mean the Dignities and Revenues of bishops, but that they desire bishops, as thinking it the fittest, and best Government of the Church, I cannot believe, for if they would have Bishops, why do they not make themselves Bishops? I know not what hindereth, why they might not have Bishops when they would. In the last place, for that which is alleged in relation to the Government of this kingdom that Bishops are so necessary, as that the King cannot well let them go with the safety of Monarchy, & that if Bishops be taken away, assemblies, or something must come in the room thereof. And if Kings should be subject thereunto and should happen to be excommunicated thereby, that after they would be little esteemed, or obeyed as Kings, for this if it shall be cleared, as it is affirmed, that the removal of the Government by Bishops, or of any thing therein do any thing strike at monarchy, I shall never give my vote, nor consent thereunto as long as I live. But to clear that this is not so, I offer to your consideration, that by the law of this land, not only all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, but also all superiority, & pre-eminence over the ecclesiastical state, is annexed to the imperial Crown of this realm, and may be granted by Commission under the great seal, to such persons as his majesty shall think meet: now, if the King should grant it unto a certain number of Commissioners, equal in authority, as he may do, this were an abolition of episcopacy, and yet not diminution of Monarchy; but the truth is, episcopacy is a kind of monarchy under a monarchy, and is therein altogether unlike the civil Government under his majesty: for the King being a common head over the ecclesiastical state and the civil, we shall find that in the exercise of civil jurisdiction, in all Courts under his majesty, it is aristocratical, and placed in many, and not in one, as appeareth in this high Court of Parliament, in the inferior Courts of Westminster-Hall, & in the Sizes, and Sessions in the country, which are held by many Commissioners, and not only by one, or his deputies, and Commissaries, as it is in the exercise of ecclesiastical Gogoverment. As to the point of excommunication, supposing that it did dissolve natural and civil bonds of duty, as it doth not, it might indeed be as terrible to Princes, as it is represented. But I reason thus, either princes are subject to excommunication, or they are not: if they be not, than they need as little to fear a presbytery, or an Assembly, as a Bishop in that respect; if they be, they have as much to fear from Bishops, at leastwise from Bishops in their Convocations, as from Presbyters in their assemblies, and so much the more, because they have formerly felt the thunderbolts of those of that stamp, but never from this latter sort. And now Sir, I proceed to represent unto you the evils, and inconveniences that do proceed from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church, and truly in my opinion the chief and principal cause of all the evils which we have suffered, since the reformation in this Church and State, hath proceeded from that division which so unhappily hath sprung up amongst us, about Church Government, and the ceremonies of the Church, and from which part in that division, I believe, it will appear in the particulars. I know well there is a great division, & that upon greater matters, between us and the Papists, and I am not ignorant that there have been great and sore breaches, made upon our civil liberties, and the right of our proprieties.  
But yet still I return to my former position, that the chief and most active cause hath proceeded from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church, and that those other causes have either fallen into it, and so acted by it, or issued out of it, and so acted from it. As for popery, I conceive that to have been a cause that hath fallen into this, and acted by it, for at the reformation, it received such a deadly wound by so many sharp laws enacted against it, that had it not been enlivened by this division amongst us, it could never have had influence upon our Church and State to have troubled them, as this day we feel: but finding that in this division amongst us, one party had need of some of their principals, to maintain their hierarchy, together with their worldly pomp and ceremonies, which are appurtenances thereunto, from hence they first conceived a ground of hope, and afterwards found means of success, towards the introducing again of their superstition and idolatry into this realm: and they wrought so diligently upon this foundation, that they have advanced their building very far, and how near they were to set up the roof, I leave it to your consideration. As for the evils which we have suffered in our civil liberty, and the right of our proprieties, I conceive they have proceeded out of this, and so acted from it, for if there had been no breaches of Parliaments, there would have been no need to have had recourse unto those broken cisterns that can hold no water; but there being a stoppage of parliamentary supplies, that was an occasion of letting in upon us, such an inundation of monopolies, and other illegal taxes, and impositions, accompanied with many other heavy and sore breaches of our liberties. Now there needed not to have been any breaches of Parliaments, had there not been something disliked in them, and what was that? it could not be any of these civil matters that bred the first difference, for they have proceeded out of it, therefore I conceive it was this. The Prelates with their adherents (the Papists also concurring with them for their interest) did always look upon Parliaments with an evil eye, as no friend to their offices and functions, at leastwise to their benefices and dignities, and therefore (some of them having always had the grace to be too near to the Prince's ears) they have always endeavoured to breed a disaffection in Kings from Parliaments, as the press and pulpit do abundantly witness, and ballads too, made by some of them, upon the breaches of Parliaments. But we have a fresh and bleeding instance of this, in the confirmation in his majesty's name, which they procured to be prefixed before their new book of Cannons, wherein they have endeavoured to make this impression upon his majesty's royal mind, that the authors and fomentors of the jealousies in respect of the new rites and ceremonies lately introduced into the Church, which we call innovations, did strike at his royal Person, as if he were perverted in his religion, and did worship God in a superstitious way, and intended to bring in some innovation in matter of Religion. Now Sir, who are the authors of those jealousies? did they not come as complaints in the petitions from the bodies of several Countries the last Parliament, and from more this present Parliament, and who were the fomentors of those jealousies? did not the general sense of the last Parliament concur in it, that they were innovations, and that they were suspicious, as introductory to superstition? nay, I appeal to all those that hear me, which are drawn from all parts of the kingdom, whether this be not the general sense of the greatest and most considerable part of the whole kingdom? I beseech you then to consider what kind offices these men have done between the King and the Parliament, between the King and the kingdom, I speak of the greatest and most considerable part, as giving denomination to the whole. And now Sir, as we have cast our eye backward, if we will look forwards, how do the clouds thicken upon us, and what distractions, yea what dangers do they threaten us withal? proceeding still from the same root of Church Government and ceremonies: and truly as things now stand: I see but two ways, the one of destruction, the other of satisfaction, destruction I mean of the opposite party to the Bishops and the Ceremonies, and reducing of all to canonical obedience, by fair means or by foul; this way hath been already tried, and what effect it hath brought forth in our neighbour kingdom, we well know, and it is like to produce no very good effect in this Kingdom, it men's scruples and reasons in that behalf, shall be only answered with prisons, and pillories, and hard censures, that I may speak most softly of them. I hold therefore, that the other way of satisfaction is the safest, the easiest, and the only way. And that is to take into consideration, the several heads of the evils, which are causes of these complaints, and to find out, and apply the proper remedies thereunto. For the furtherance whereof, I shall make bold with your patience (which I am very unwilling to tire, but must tire my own conscience, if I should not discharge it upon this occasion) to represent a brief model of the several heads and springs, from whence the evils which are causes of these complaints, do naturally or occasionally arise. The evils complained of, do either arise from persons, or from things, those faults that are personal, are besides the point that I intend to speak to, there is one only remedy for them, that is, by punishment and removal of such persons, and the putting of better in their room. As for those evils which proceed from things, they also are remedied by a removal of such things as are evil, and the putting of better in their room; the evils and inconveniences of this kind do principally flow, either from the Clergies offices and functions, or from their benefices and dignities; those that arise from their offices and functions, do arise naturally either from the laws and constitutions, whereby, and according unto which, they exercise their offices and functions, or from the Government itself, wherein they exercise those functions. The faults that I note in the ecclesiastical laws, are that they hold too much of the civil law, and too much of the ceremonial law: of the civil law, in respect of all those titles concerning wills, and legacies, tithes, marriages, adulteries, which all belonging to the civil jurisdiction, and are no more of spiritual consideration, than rapes, thefts, felonies, or treasons may be. Sir it is good that every bird should have his own feather, and I remember when one came to our Saviour Christ, to desire him that he would cause his Brother to divide the inheritance with him, he asked him, who made him a judge of such things: and may not we ask who made them, that take themselves to be successors of Christ and his Apostles, Judges of such things? Many inconveniences arise from hence, first, that the minds of clergy men, are enured unto civil dominion, and to meddle with civil matters. Secondly, the manner of their proceedings, is turned from a spiritual way into the fashion of processes in temporal Courts. And lastly, which is worst of all, by this means the spiritual sword comes to be unsheathed about such things as do not at all fall under the stroke thereof. Many are excommunicated for pigs, apples, and nuts, and such like things; but the other fault which I noted in the ecclesiastical laws, and constitutions, pincheth us more, which is, that they hold too much of the ceremonial law. And here Mr. Speaker, give me leave to lament the condition of this our Church of England, beyond that of all other reformed Churches. A certain number of ceremonies in the judgement of some men unlawful and to be rejected of all Churches, in the judgement of all other reformed Churches to be rejected by them, and in the judgement of our own Churches but indifferent ceremonies, and yet what difference, yea, what distractions have these indifferent ceremonies raised amongst us? What hath deprived us of so many faithful, able, and godly ministers, since the Reformation, as able and as fit in all other respects to discharge that function, as any age ever produced in the Christian World since the time of the Apostles, I say what hath deprived us of them, but these indifferent ceremonies? what hath deprived us of so many thousand Christians which desired (and in all other respects deserved) to hold communion with us, I say what hath deprived us of them, and scattered them into I know not what places and corners of the world, but these indifferent ceremonies? What hath caused so many hard censures, and harder executions, but these indifferent ceremonies? What hath occasioned those calamities, and dangers, which we feel, and which we fear, but those indifferent ceremonies? I shall say no more of them, but I pray God that now at length it may please his majesty with this his great Counsel of Parliament, to take a view of them, and if there be a necessity to retain them, let them be retained; but if not, then let us remove them, before they ruin us. As to the evils and inconveniences that arise out of the Government itself, I should have noted something amiss, as well in the legislative part, as in the executive part, but in the former I am prevented, by what hath been already voted concerning the power of making Cannons: which votes if they be brought to perfection, they will set us right in great part, in that respect, for surely, before the power was neither in the hands of such as were representative of that which is truly the Church of England, nor yet in the hands of those that were truly representative of the clergy of England, if they were the whole Church, as indeed they are not. As to the executive part, which consisteth in the exercise of ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, therein I note also two disorders, Confusion, and Corruption, Confusion of the spiritual sword, with the temporal; laymen strike with the spiritual sword, and spiritual men with the temporal sword; nay, out of the same mouth, and at the same time proceedeth an excommunication, and a fine, or commitment, or both: I will not say positively, that it is unlawful for clergy men to exercise civil Jurisdiction, because I know it is a question, but yet such a question as hath been determined by divers Canons of general counsels, and by some that were made in Synods of the Church of England, that it is unlawful, and that upon grounds which are not contemptible.  
As first, that it is contrary to the precept and practice of Christ and his Apostles. And secondly, that it is not possible for one man to discharge two functions, whereof either is sufficient to employ the whole man, especially that of the ministry so great, that they ought not to entangle themselves with the affairs of this world. A third ground not so well observed generally, as in one part thereof, is this, that Ministers of the gospel, being sent especially to gain the souls of men, they are to gain as great interest as possible may be, in their minds and affections: now we know that the nature of all men is such, that they are apt to think hardly of those that are any authors of their pain and punishment, although it be in a way of justice, & therefore as it is well known, that Clergy men are not to be present in judicio sanguinis, so the same reason extends itself to the administration of all civil jurisdiction, and therefore we may observe that our Saviour Christ, as he always rejected all civil judicature, so on the other side, he went up and down healing men's bodies, and otherwise doing good to their outward estate, that his doctrine might have a freer, and fairer passage into their souls. For the corruption that I spoke of in the exercise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction, I do not mean any personal corruption, but a deviation, or aberration from the prescript of the divine rule, and though it be not easy to find what that is in all particulars, yet it is not hard to say, what it is not, and that I doubt may prove our case in divers things. Ecclesiastical jurisdiction we know, extendeth either to the Clergy only, and consisteth in the Ordination, Admission, Suspension, and Deprivation of them, or else it extendeth to the whole Church, and consisteth in excommunication and absolution. As to the Ordination, Admission, Suspension, and Deprivation of Ministers, we see how it is wholly at the pleasure of one man, and that of one man proceeding in a manner arbitrarily, and that of one man whose interest is concerned in it, that the door should be shut against able and painful preaching Ministers, and a wide door set open to such as are unable, and unfit for that function: many and great and dangerous evils arise from hence. As first, that there is a constant far and feud between the ecclesiastical State and the civil, between Prelates, and Parliaments, between the Cannon law, and the Common law, between the Clergy, and the commonwealth, arising from the disproportion, and dissimilitude which is between the civil and Ecclesiastical government, however it may seem to some to agree well enough, but the truth is, if we consider his Majesty as the Common-head over the ecclesiastical State, as well as the civil, we shall find that in the exercise of all Civil jurisdiction, in all Courts under his Majesty, the power is not in any one, or his Deputies and Commissaries, as it is in the ecclesiastical Government, in the several dioceses throughout this kingdom: if we look first upon the highest and greatest Court, the high Court of Parliament, we know that is a counsel and a great Counsel too. In like manner in the inferior Courts of Westminster-Hall, there are many Judges in the point of law, and more in matter of fact, wherein every man is judged by twelve of equal condition unto him, I mean the juries, which are Judges of the fact, both in causes civil and criminal: and if we look into the country, we shall find the Sessions and Sizes, and other Courts held not by any one, but by divers Commissioners. And in short, in the Civil Government, every man from the greatest to the least, hath some share in the Government according to the Proportion of his Interest in the commonwealth, but in the Government of the Church, all is in the hands of one man, in the several dioceses, or of his chancellors, or Commissaries, and he exacts canonical obedience, to his pontifical commands, with a total exclusion of those that notwithstanding have as much share in the Church, and consequently as much Interest in the government of it, as they have in that of the Commonwealth. (Sir) until the Ecclesiastical government be framed something of another twist, and be more assimilated unto that of the commonwealth, I fear the Ecclesiastical government will be no good neighbour unto the Civil, but will be still a casting in of its leaven into it, to reduce that also to a sole, absolute, and arbitrary way of proceeding: And herein (Sir) I do not believe, that I utter prophecies, but what we have already found, and felt.  
A Second, and that a great evil, and of dangerous consequence, in this sole and arbitrary power of Bishops over their Clergy is this, that they have by that means a power, to place, and displace the whole clergy of their diocese at their pleasure: and this is such a power, as for my part, I had rather they had the like power over the Estate, and persons of all within their diocese; for if I hold the one, but at the will and pleasure of one man, (I mean the ministry, under which I must live) I can have but little, or at least no certain joy nor comfort in the other. But this is not all, for if they have such a power to mould the clergy of their dioceses, according to their pleasure, we know what an Influence they may have by them upon the people, and that in a short time they may bring them to such blindness, and so mould them also to their own wills, as that they may bring in what Religion they please: nay, having put out our eyes, as the Philistines did Samson's, they may afterwards make us grind, and reduce us unto what slavery they please, either unto themselves, as formerly they have done, or unto others, as some of them lately have been forward enough to do. Now whether it be safe to walk upon Stilts on the top of the pinnacles of the Temple, upon so high precipices, as are the matters of Religion, and conscience, (which may have also a dangerous Influence upon our civil liberries) I leave it to your consideration: for my part, I should not think it safe, that such a power should be in any one man, though you suppose him to be a very good man.  
A third evil, and that of dangerous consequence, is that the door is shut against able and painful Preaching Ministers, and a wide door set open unto those that are unable, and unfit for that function, and the Bishop's interest is concerned in it, that it should be so. Interest of honour, Interest of profit, and Interest of power, Interest of credit; for they see that those painful Preachers carry away all the credit from them, and they neither can nor will do the like themselves: they cannot by reason they are so entangled with the affairs of this world, and civil Jurisdiction; they will not, their great Dignities and honours make them so stately, that they think it is not episcopal to Preach often; and on the other side, they are so far, and live so much at their ease, that through idleness they cannot bring their minds unto it, and so first ariseth envy against those that do take pains, and thence after springeth persecution. In the next place, their Interest is concerned in matter of profit: for they suppose, that if the credit of their Diana fall to the ground, their gain will after cease, and that the people wi●l think much that some men should take all the pains, and other go away with all the Profit.  
Lastly, their Interest is concerned in it, in point of power, for they find that neither such Preaching Ministers, nor their auditors, are so pliable to yield blind canonical obedience, as others are: and so it concerns them in point of power to stop their mouths. And now it must needs follow by the rule of contraries, that it must be for their profit, honour, and power, to set open a door to idle and unfit Ministers. But there are two particuculars which I will note wherein it concerns them in their profits, to set the door very wide open, where there is no suspicion of refractoriness. First we know Bishops have many times Livings in Commendum and pluralities: but there is hardly any, but they have Impropriations, whereof they are to see the cure discharged, and therefore it is for their profit, that there may be good store of cheap Curates, which cannot be very fit and able men: and with such ordinarily, they furnish the cures of such places, whereof they have the Impropriations. (Sir) In the next place we know, that orders are not given, but in a manner sold, for not only the Bishop, and his Register, but also his usher, his chamberlain, his Butler, and Porter, and almost all his menial Servants must have their fees, before the poor clerk with his Box full of Orders, can pass the porter's Lodge. I hear much of the legal Simony, which consisteth in the buying and selling of Benefices, but whether this doth not approach nearer to the Evangelical Simony, which consisteth in the buying and selling of the gifts of the holy Ghost; I offer it to your consideration. Now (Sir) for Excommunication and Absolution, all seems to be out of point, for Excommunication is neither in right hands, nor exercised upon right grounds and matters, nor in a right form and manner, nor to right ends, and then it is no marvel, if it have not right effects. (Sir) we know our Saviour hath lodged it in the Church (for so runs the precept) dic ecclesiae: now (Sir) that one man should be a Church, sounds strangely in my ears. In the next place (I beseech you Sir) consider about what their spiritual Sword is exercised, about things no way lying under the stroke thereof? A man shall be Excommunicated for a Pig, or for an Apple, and such like things? I heard once a Gentleman of the civil Law, answer hereunto in this House, that the Excommunication was not for the thing, but for the contempt, and the less the thing was, that was commanded, the greater was the contempt: If this were so, sure the greater is the cruelty, to lay command upon so small a matter, that draweth after it so deep a censure, as to cast a man down into Hell. Suppose a Magistrate should command some trivial matter, some ceremony or other, under pain of Treason, and should proceed against the Infringers of his command as traitors, it were much to be doubted whether the command did not partake more of cruelty, than the disobedience of contempt; for when authority shall so far lose itself, as to lay so great a weight upon so small a matter, it rendereth itself contemptible, and then it is no marvel (I had almost said) it is no fault, if it be contemned, having made itself contemptible. Then Sir, for the form of proceeding, it is no whit spiritual, there is no fasting and prayer, no seeking to reclaim the sinner, but rather it is after the fashion of a summary process in a civil Court, nay Sir, it is accompanied sometimes with an intimation that no man shall buy, or sell, with the person excommunicated, nor set him a work, nor do any civil or natural offices unto him. As we had a complaint brought in this Parliament, of a Son that was excommunicated only for repeating a Sermon to his father, being an excommunicate person. Now Sir, for the ends for which this censure is executed, they are ordinarily to fetch in fees, or at the best to bring men under canonical obedience, which is the Ordinaries will and pleasure, and I have sometimes seen a Minister pronounce an excommunication, which he held in one hand, and presently after the absolution, which he held in the other, so the end of the excommunication was the absolution, and the end of that was fees: (Sir) for the honour of God, for the honour of our national Church, and for the honour of the Christian Religion, let the high and great censure of the Church no longer lackey after fees, let not Christians any longer be cast to Satan, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the nonpayment of a groat. And now Sir we may imagine what effects are like to follow upon such premises, the great and dreadful censure of excommunication is thereby made contemptible, and were it not for the civil restrains, and penalties that follow upon it, no man would purchase an absolution, though he might have it for a half penny. And I have heard of some that have thanked the Ordinaries for abating, or remitting the fees of the Courts: but I never heard of any that thanked them, for reclaiming their souls to repentance, by their excommunications; (Sir) for absolution it is relative to excommunication, and so labours of the same diseases: only one thing I shall particularly note concerning absolution, (Sir) it is called commutation of penance, but indeed it is a destruction of the ordinance, making it void and of none effect, and surely God never set his Ministers to sell indulgences in his Church. The oath that is to precede absolution, de parendo juri Ecclesiae et stando, &c. hath already been sufficiently spoken unto, in the debate about the Canons, and therefore there will be no need of speaking more to that. Now Sir, I am come to my last head, wherein I shall be very brief, and that is concerning the evils that arise out of the benefices and dignities of the Clergy, the common cause being from the inequality of the distribution of them, much resembling a disease very ordinary at this time amongst children, which they call the rickets, wherein the nourishment goeth all to the upper parts, which are over great and monstrous, and the lower parts pine away: and so it is in the Clergy, some are so poor that they cannot attend their ministry, but are fain to keep schools, nay, alehouses, some of them; and some others are so stately, they will not attend their ministry: and so between them the flock starves, but our evils have more especially proceeded, from the excessive worldly wealth, and dignities of one part of the Clergy, I mean, such as either are in possession, or in hopes of bishoprics for these great places of profit and honour, first have been the baits of ambition, and then they became the apples of contention, and last of all the seeds of superstition, the one being a step and degree unto the other, and all of them leading in the end to the corruption, that I may not say subversion of our Religion. Sir they are first the baits of ambition, and I know not by what secret cause, but experience showeth us, that when Clergy men have once tasted the sweet of worldly wealth and honours, they are more eager, and ambitious after them then any other sort of men, hereupon other godly Ministers, that live more according to the simplicity of the Gospel, and the example of Christ and his Apostles, cannot but bear witness against their worldly pomp and dignities, and so the fires of contention breaketh forth. And truly (Sir) the state of the Clergy is very like to fire, which whilst it keeps in the chimney, it is of excellent use to warm those that approach unto it, but if it once break out into the house, and get upon the house top, it sets all on fire. So whilst the Clergy keep themselves within the pulpit, they are of great use to stir up the zeal and devotion of Christians, but if they once fly out into the house, if they begin to meddle with civil places and jurisdictions, and especially if they once get up to the council-table, it is seldom seen, but that length they set all on fire, and what is it that maketh the fire to break out of the chimney, but too much fuel: if there be but a moderate proportion of fuel, the fire keeps itself within its bounds, but if you heap faggot upon faggot, a whole cartload together, than it breaketh out: (so Sir) if there be a competent maintenance for the ministry, they will keep themselves within their bounds, but if living be heaped upon living, and temporalities added to spiritualities, the flame will soon break out, and set the house on fire. (Sir) I do not envy the wealth or greatness of the Clergy, but I am very confident if those were less, they would be better, and do more service to Christ and his Church, and I am very clear in mine own heart, that the livings of the clergy being more equally distributed, the service of God would be so far from receiving any prejudice, that it would be much advanced, and withal a good proportion of revenue might return again unto the crown, from whence it was first derived. (Sir) bishoprics, deaneries, and Chapiters, are like to great wasters in a wood, they make no proof themselves, they cumber the ground whereon they stand, and with their great arms and boughs stretched forth on every side, partly by their shade, and partly by their sour droppings they hinder all the young wood under them from growing and thriving. To speak plain English, these Bishops, Deans, and Chapiters, do little good themselves by preaching, or otherwise, and if they were felled, a great deal of good timber might be cut out of them, for the uses of the Church and kingdom at this time. A fresh stool of three or four able Ministers might spring up in their stead, to very good purpose in those great towns, which are ordinarily the seats of those Episcopal, and Collegiate Churches, and the private congregations of divers parochial Churches might thrive and grow better, which now have the Sun of God's word, I mean the clear and spiritual preaching thereof kept from them, and live in the dangerous shade of ignorance, by reason that all the means is taken from them, and appropriated unto Bishops, or to deaneries, & Chapters, and other such like Collegiate Churches. Besides such as do begin to grow and start up through the voluntary pains of some amongst them, or by such preaching as they themselves have procured by their voluntary contributions, should not still be dropped on as they are, from the arms and appendances of those great wasters, and kept down continually by their bitter persecutions. That which remains now, is to show how these great revenues and dignities, become the seeds of superstition, and that is thus. The Clergy in the maintenance of their greatness, which they are neither willing to forgo, nor yet well able to maintain upon the principles of the reformed Religion, finding that the popish principles, whereon the Bishop of Rome built his greatness, to suit well unto their ends, that maketh them to side with that party, and that must needs bring in superstition: and as ambition allureth on the one side, so the principles they go by, draw them on farther, and farther, and happily at length farther than they themselves at first intended. Whether a reconciliation with Rome, were imagined or no by some, I leave it to every one to judge within himself: but sure I am, if an accommodation could have been made in some fashion or other, with the Church of Rome, the Clergy might again be capable of foreign preferments, and Cardinal's caps, and this is no small temptation. Now Sir, I am at an end: only I shall draw out three conclusions, which I conceive may clearly be collected out of what I have said: First that civil jurisdiction in the persons of Clergy men, together with their great revenues, and high places of dignity, is one great cause of the evils which we suffer in matter of religion. Secondly, that the sole and arbitrary power of Bishops in the ordaining and depriving of Ministers, and in excommunication, and absolution, is another great cause of the evils we suffer in matter of Religion. Thirdly, the strict urging of Subscription, and Conformity to the Ceremonies, and Canons of the Church, is another great cause of evil, which we suffer in matter of Religion.  
And now my humble motion is, that we should take a piece only of this subject into our consideration, but the whole matter, and that not only that part of the Ministers remonstrance, which hath been read, should be referred unto the Committee which you are about to name, but London's petition also, and all other petitions of the like nature, so soon as they shall be read in the house, and that the Committee may collect out of them all, such heads as are fit for the consideration of this house, and surely that is fit to be considered, that happily will not be thought fit to be altered: consideration is one thing, and alteration another: where there is a mixture of bad and good together, the whole must be consired that we may know how to sever the good from the bad, and so retain the one, and reject the other, which is all that I desire. And if any thing have fallen from me more inconsiderate (as in so long a discourse many things may have done) I humbly crave the pardon of the house, protesting that I have spoken nothing but with a mind, which is ready to sacrifice the body it dwelleth in, to the peace and safety of his majesty's kingdoms, and the safety and honour of his majesty in the Government of them.  
FINIS.