Imprimatur  
RAD. BATHURST. Vicecan. Oxon.   

FIRMIANUS and DUBITANTIUS, OR Certain DIALOGUES Concerning Atheism, Infidelity, Popery, and other Heresies and Schisme's that trouble the peace of the Church, and are destructive of Primitive Piety.  
Written in a plain and easy method, for the satisfaction of doubting Christians. By THO. GOOD, D.D. Master of Balliol College in Oxon.  
Take heed Brethren. least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeleif, in departing from the living God. Heb. 3.12.  
OXFORD, Printed by L. LICHFIELD Printer to the University, for THO. HANCOX Bookseller in Hereford. 1674.   

To the Reader.  
COnsidering the many Learned and judicious Tracts, that are extant against Atheism, Infidelity, Popery, with other Heresies, Sects, & Schisms, destructive of the Ancient Catholic Religion, and of that Peace and Unity, Love and Charity, which is the badge and mark of Christ's sheep; I thought it superfluous to add my poor Scribble after such fair Copy's, but observing the length, and learning of those elaborate Tractats, which many men have neither money to buy, leisure to read, nor judgement to understand, I conceived that these few short Discourses, (not fitted, nor indeed intended, for the perusal of the learned) might nevertheless, be gratum opus agricolis, not altogether unprofitable for men of ordinary Capacities, to which purpose I have used such means and methods. That I might be the better understood by these men, I have endeavoured that the matter of these discourses (for the most part) might be plain and familiar, the phrase and expressions intelligible. I have made use of two feigned names. (Firmianus and Dubitantius,) to personate the sound Believer, and the doubting Sceptic Christian, who are brought upon the Stage, disputing by way of Dialogue, which is most suitable to men of short discourse, and most apt to comply with their apprehension. I hope the more learned Reader, (if any such shall give themselves the trouble to peruse this little Manuel) will not Censure the plainness of it, but rather commend the Charity of the Author toward the w●ll meaning Christian, who amongst those many Treatises, that have been written, can meet with very few that are calculated for his Meridian, and consequently is apt to be blown about with every wind of doctrine, by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive▪ and who these gamesters are, he that has but half an eye may see, and how many a poor soul has in these times of confusion been blown about from one erroneous opinion to another, until he has turned Seeker, Scheptick, and at last down right Atheist, there is no man so great a stranger in our Jerusalem that can be ignorant.  
Wherefore if these short and familiar discourses may have the happiness to prevent the falling of any unsettled, wavering soul, or to restore any that has fallen to a sound mind, 'twill be my great satisfaction and rejoying to be able to apply to myself that of St. James, cap. 5.19. Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him, let him know that he that converts a sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins. Now the God of truth and peace grant, that these poor and weak endeavours may work that good effect upon the erring seduced sinner, and that the multitude of my sins may be covered, with the long white robe of my blessed Saviour's righteousness, for his holy name sake. Amen.  
Thine in the truth that is i● Christ Jesus. THO. GOOD.   

DIALOGUE I. Against ATHEISM.  Firm. 
GOod morrow to my old Friend Dubitantius.  Dub. 
A good day to you, Firmianus.  Firm. 
Methinks I read some discontent in your face: what may be the cause of it?  Dub. 
There is a great cause; I have been so long distracted betwixt diversity of Opinions in point of Religion, that I am now doubting whether there be any Religion at all, or any Supreme invisible Deity to be worshipped.  Firm. 
This is the common result of vain Janglings, that they usually end in Atheism and Infidelity. But pray tell me, is it possible, that there should be such fierce disputes, and bitter contentions about a very nothing? Certainly such sharp disputes about the various manners of God's worship, do strongly argue that Religion is a thing of highest concern, or that all the wisest men that ever were in the world are Fools, and madmen, to oppose, hate, malign, persecute one another even unto death, for a groundless fancy, a very nothing.  Dub. 
Your discourse is very Rational, for I suppose wise men would never wrangle about a mere Romance; yet I confess I have had strange irrational thoughts, against the very Being of God, and the truth of any Religion.  Firm. 
You justly term such thoughts irrational. Did not I once tell you, that when you had forsaken your Mother the Church of England, (the most Apostolical Catholic in the whole world) in short time you would become a Libertine, an Atheist, any thing, or nothing?  Dub. 
Do you think that all Nonconformists, and Separatists from your Church, are Libertines and Atheists?  Firm. 
I am not so uncharitable: but I must tell you, that causeless separation is a very greiveous sin, and punished many times with the severest judgements, such as are Spiritual blindness, Hardness of heart, and a Reprobate mind.  Dub. 
I fear those judgements have overtaken me: for since I became a Separatist from your Church, I have been very cold at my Devotion, made little conscience of public, or secret Prayer; of Obedience to those powers which God has ordained; of Love, Charity, Honesty, and Upright dealing towards my neighbours. I have lived an Atheist in practice so long, that I am now ready to be an Atheist in Opinion, and to say with the fool in the 14. Psal. There is no God. I have so long s●ept out of one opinion into another, that at length I am become a very Sceptic in Religion, doubting of all, and fixing upon none.  Firm. 
Truly Sir, you made good your name by your practice, which renders you a right Dubitantius. But pray tell me by what degrees, and methods, you have stepped out of our Church into the borders of Atheism, that I may with the more facility bring you back the same way, by which you have unhappily gone out from us, into the bosom of your dear Mother.  Dub. 
Your Demand is reasonable. 'Tis not unknown to you that I was once a true son of the Church of England, you shall hereafter know for what reasons I left her Communion, and became a Presbyterian: and to be brief I stayed not long, in that opinion, but presently I proceeded Independent, then Anabaptist, than Quaker, than Papist, then Antiscripturist, than what you now find me, almost an Atheist.  Firm. 
I hope you are not fixed in that wretched Opinion, as resolvedly to deny him a being, that gave you yours.  Dub. 
Sir, I am not; but have many doubts whether there be, and as many thoughts that there is not a God, Creator and governor of Heaven and Earth, and all things in them contained.  Firm. 
I have heretofore taken you for a rational man, and therefore I desire a reason from you of such thoughts and doubts.  Dub. 
Those many Controversies, and sharp contentions about religion and worship of God, have caused me to doubt, whether there be any Religion at all, or any God to be worshipped.  Firm. 
Is it imaginable that so many wise men should contend about a trifle, a fancy, a very nothing? 'Tis strange that what should be a most rational motive to persuade you to believe that there is a God, and a Religion, should make you doubt of both. There must be something in it, that draws so many Combatants into the field, Zealous Sticklers for their several Modes, and Forms, of Religion, hating ●ne another even unto death.  Dub. 
This you have intimated before. I am fully convinced, that so many fierce disputes about Religion, do argue, that 'tis not a mere fancy. I pray Sir, inquire no further after the reasons of my doubts, but let me hear from you, how they may be satisfied.  Firm. 
Most willingly; but that we may proceed the more methodically, let it be agreed betwixt us, what is the true notion of God. Upon supposition that God is, what do you conceive of him in your mind?  Dub. 
'Tis agreed by all, that the notion or conception of God in our mind, is, 
† Dr. Moor's Antidote, and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g. 395.  that he is a being infinitely perfect.  Firm. 
If God be a being infinitely perfect▪ then God is: for a being infinitely perfect must necessarily exist and be.  Dub. 
Do not we say, a Rose is a flower, yet it does not follow (at a●l times) that a Rose is: for in the winter there is no such thing as a Rose, and yet the proposition is true.  Firm. 
There is a vast difference betwixt a being absolutely perfect, and that which has a limited and finite perfection; for in this the essence may be really abstracted from the actual existence, but not in that. For a being infinitely or absolutely perfect, must necessarily exist; not contingently, or impossibly; for those modes are inconsistent with a being absolutely perfect; for whatsoever does exist contingently, is in possibility not to exist, which is an imperfection: and impossibility of existence is the greatest imperfection of all other.  Dub. 
This reason is so obscure, that albeit I cannot reply to it, yet I am not satisfied with it. I fear some fallacy lies hid in the bowels of it.  Firm. 
I believe not; yet because you do not fully comprehend it, I shall proceed to others tha● are more plain and intelligible.  Firm. 
What say you then to that reason which is drawn from the General consent of all nations, as well Heathens as Christians; Nulla gens tam barbara, etc. says Cicero; No nation was ever so barbarous which did not confess a God; now the consent of all nations is the law and dictate of nature, so that 'tis impossible that all nations should consent in so great a falsehood, as the Atheist endeavours to maintain.  
Add to this their general practice in worshipping some supreme Deity; that rather than worship no God at all, they would worship the Sun, Moon and Stars, ye● the mo●t contemptible Creatures, the Crocodile, Onions, Garlic, a Red Cloth, any thing they first met with in the morning; so powerful is the impulse and inclination of nature in this great business of Religion, which is the proper distinguishing Character betwixt a man and a beast: as Lactantius has long since observed.  Dub. 
I confess that the general consent of nations in the acknowledging and worshipping a God, has been one main reason, that has kept me from being a downright Atheist: Yet I have somewhat to say against it; because this consent is not so general as is pretended, for I have heard there have been men in Ancient times, and not a few in these we live in, who have said, not only in their hearts, but also with their tongues, there is no God.  Firm. 
What are two, or three men in former ages, or a fe● debauched persons in this, to the general consent of all civil nations, from the beginning of the world? Happily you have heard that so●e have denied, the Sno● to be white, the Fire to be hot. Monstrous opinions are no more a prejudice to the dictates of nature, and common consent of all nations, then monstrous shapes and forms in the body are to the laws of nature, which she generally observes, in the forming of men and beasts in their due proportions, and lineaments▪ What if some few, out of discontent, singularity, animosity, or brutish sensuality, have turned Atheists? Is it not a great prejudice to this brutish opinion, That few Sober men (if any) have been of their party, but such as have been first Atheists in practice, sensual, debauched wretches? Nam quo quis in vita purior, etc. says Cicero: ●y how much any man has been more pure in his li●e and conversation, by so much his thoughts of the Gods have been more sound and rational.  Dub. 
I confess it is a great prejudice to Atheism, that the Debaucher sort are the greatest (i● not the only) sticklers for it; but still my doubt remains, and therefore I desire to hear from you some more evident reasons, for my full satisfaction.  Firm. 
Most willingly I shall comply with you● desire. My Third Argument shall be this.  
If the world had a beginning, and was not from all eternity, than 'twas made by something else; for nothing can make itself. 'Tis as clear as the Sun at noon day, whatsoever is made, is made by another; for that which is not, cannot work, and consequently cannot produce itself, nor a●y other ●●ing: now this something else must be made o● some other cause, or else itself must be the supreme cause of all things. If you affirm the former, you must run up into an infinite number of Causes, which is impossible, or else you must come at last to one supreme independent being, which is the maker of all things, he himself being made of none, which is the eternal God.  Dub. 
I begin to feel the weight of this Argument. If you can clearly prove the world to have had a beginning, I shall be your Convert, and readily confess, that verily there is a God that hath made the world, and judgeth the earth.  Firm. 
This I hope I shall perform by his gracious assistance, whose cause I plead, and whose poor sinful creature I am.  
First, Then by the world we understand the whole Systeme, or Collection of things in it contained, Sun, Moon, Stars, Air, Earth, Water, Men, Beasts, Fo●les, Fishes, Plants, and all things whatsoever comprehended in this vast circumference.  Dub. 
I willingly grant that by t●● World we are ●o understand all things therein contained, as you have enumerated them, which make up the visible world, created by Almighty God, in six days, as your Moses would have us believe.  Firm. 
That none of these were from all eternity, I shall prove by instancing in two of the most principal of them, to wit, the Sun in the Firmament, and Man that dwells upon the face of the earth, by which you may judge of the rest.  Dub. 
If you can prove that the Sun was not from eternity, and that there was a first Man, and consequently that mankind had a beginning, I shall be abundantly satisfied, it that wherein at present I much doubt, viz. The world's beginning.  Firm. 
Before I proceed to my arguments, you must give me leave, to lay down certain principles which no rational man will deny; As for example.  
1. Quicquid fit, fit ab alio, whatsoever is made, is made by something else; for nothing can make itself.  
2. Omne ens est vel factum, fi●itum, dependens, vel non factum, infinitum, independens; every thing that is, is either made, finite, independent; or not made, infinite, independent.  
3. Vere i●finitum non habet principium, aut finem; that which is truly infinite, has neither beginning, not end.  
4. Non datur pro●essus in infinitum; we cannot proceed in numbering, from effects to causes, or in any other way imaginable infinitely, but we must come ●o some period o● end.  
5. Infinitum no● potest pertransiri, 'tis impossible to pass over or through that which is infinite, so as to come to an end of it, seeing what is infinite has no end.  
6. Infinito ●il potest addi, to that which is infinite nothing can be added to make it greater, or more than 'twas before that addition.  
7. Aeternitas est duratio ●nterminabilis sine partium successione, in qua non datur prius & posterius; Eternity in its full and proper notion, is a boundless duration, without beginning or end, without succession of parts, as that one part of it should be either before or after another.  Dub. 
No rational man can deny any of these principles: but I much wonder, how so great a master of reason, as Aristotle was, should grant all or most of these, and hold the eternity of the world, and not be sensible of manifest contradictions.  Firm. 
That the Eternity of the world is a flat contradiction to many of these principles, is evident; that Aristotle was an acute Philosopher, cannot be denied; but it must be granted he was but a man, and one that had only the light of corrupted nature to guide him, he might therefore err, not knowing the Scripture, nor indeed the power of God, and therefore he w●s ignorant how the world could have a beginning; and seeing he very resolutely maintained, that ex nihilo ni●il fit, that whatsoever is made, is made of something, and that of something else, and so we mu●● proceed in infinitum, which he positively denied as absurd and impossible, as well he might; or else the world must be from all eternity, proceeding from the first mover, (whom he conceived to be a necessary, not a free Agent) as heat from the fire, or light from the sun, and therefore eternally existing with that first mover, or first cause: however some have affirmed, that in his Book de Mundo (if that be his) he retracted this error, which has been a grand occasion of Atheism, as F●rra▪ upon Aquin●s ●ontra Gent. has truly observed.  Dub. 
And well he might, if 'twas built upon ●o sandy a foundation, as to make God a necessary Agent, for that was to render him inferior to some of his Creatures, which are free and voluntary. But pray leave the Philosopher to his other errors, and self-contradictions, and make it appear, if you can, that he erred in asserting the eternity of the world.  Firm. 
That I hope to perform by principles granted by all sober men.  
There is nothing in the world, but either 'twas made, and had a beginning, or 'twas not made, but was from all eternity; now 'tis evident, that there is no particular thing in this visible world, which was not made. The Sun, Moon, & Stars were made, Men, Beasts and Plants were made. For brevity sake, I shall only instance in the Sun, and in Man, that they were made, and had a beginning, and consequently the Moon, and Stars, ●easts, and Plants.  
1. That the Sun was made, and had a beginning, I thus demonstrate: That which was not from all eternity, but had a beginning, was made, and that by something else, because nothing can make itself; but the Sun was not from all eternity.  
The Major is evident, the Minor is thus confirmed; If the Sun was from all eternity, then either it moved, from all eternity, or it stood still▪ if it moved from eternity, than 'twas eternally together in the East, Meridian, and West, not first in the East, then in the Meridian, then in the West: for in an eternal motion, (if any such motion were possible) there can be no succession▪ no first, or last, (prius or posterius) because in such a motion there is neither beginning no● end.  Dub. 
'Tis evident, by what you say, that the Sun has not moved from eternity, but how can you prove it did not stand still from eternity, seeing there are some that hold it always stood still, and never moved to this day, but that the earth moves and the Sun not at all.  Firm. 
It hinders not the force of the Argument, whether you hold the earth move, and the Sun stands still, or the contrary; for 'tis but shifting the Scene, and putting the Earth instead of the Sun, and the reason will be altogether the same.  Dub. 
I perceive it does not, and therefore let me hear how you can prove that the Sun did not stand still from all eternity.  Firm. 
If the Sun stood still from eternity, than there was an eternal night upon half the face, or Globe of the earth, and an eternal day up on the other half, (or at least many other gross absurdities would follow.) No vicissitudes or changes of night and day, summer and winter, spring and autumn, and consequently no productions, or generations of Men, Beasts, Plants, for that half of the earth which was deprived of the light and heat of the Sun, (which as a second cause gives life and vegetation to all the inferior Creatures, that have life and growth) could bring forth no vegetables, or animals; and the other half, which was always scorched with too much heat, must of necess●ity be as barren by such heat, as the other by extreme cold; and so we should have an eternal Sun to no purpose, and then what will become of your eternal world?  
Besides if the Sun stood still from eternity, what caused it to move in time? of it's own nature certainly it could never awake out of an eternal sleep: if any thing else set it in motion, then either it must be something that was moved by some superior Cause, and this cause by another, and so to an infinite number of causes, which is absurd and impossible, or else it must be the first mover and efficient cause of all things, which is God.  Dub. 
You have abundantly satisfied me, that the Sun had not an eternal being, and consequently that neither men, beasts, or plants, could be from all eternity; however I desire to hear from you some particular arguments against the eternity of mankind.  Firm. 
There is no particular man but had▪ beginning, was made and begotten by his Parents, they by theirs, and so we must ascend from son to father, up to all eternity, usque ad infinitum, which is utterly impossible, or else we must come to a first man, who could not make or beget himself. Now if every particular man be made, and begotten, than the whole kind must be made, because the whole kind is nothing else, but the Collection of all particulars. Every one of them we see by daily experience had a beginning, and is begotten or made; therefore 'tis made by some other, for quicquid fit, fit ab alio, and this of some other, and so forward until we come to the supreme cause of all things, which is God.  
Again, Either all men that are, or ever were in the world, were made; or some were made, and some not made, but had being of themselves: if so, 'tis impossible that these men should be of the same kind, with the men that were made, for that which is made depending upon another, cannot be of the same kind with that which is not made and independent, because a thing that is not made, infinite, independent, is of another kind from what is made, finite, and dependent; and these two (finite and infinite, dependent and independent) are opposite members, dividing one and the same most common kind.  Dub. 
'Tis a clear demonstration, that every particular man being made, the whole kind must be made; hut pray tell me, might there not be a perpetual successive generation of men up to all eternity, and so a processus in infinitum, an infinite number of them without all beginning?  Firm. 
This is altogether impossible; for in a Catalogue, or Series of things, every one of which had a beginning, as 'tis evident that every particular man had (and consequently the whole Series) there cannot possible be a processus in infinitum, up to all eternity, or an infinite succession of causes and effects, without all beginning; Eternity properly so called, has neither beginning, no● end, for 'tis duratio interminabilis. an infinite unlimited duration, and therefore whatsoever had a beginning cannot possibly be eternal, but the whole series of men had a beginning, for whatsoever is made had a beginning, but the whole Series of men was made, therefore it had a beginning, for every particular man had a beginning: therefore the whole Series, which is nothing else but a collection of all particulars, and therefore it cannot be equal or comensurable to eternity, which is without beginning.  
Again, If the series, or rank of men did run up to eternity, or into an infinite number of successive generations, than that infinite number of men have been swallowed up of death many millions of years before this age we live in, and so death has passed over that number, which is contrary to that certain principle, infinitum non potest pertransiri; 'tis impossible to pass over, or through that which is infinite: nay then ●here would not be any man living at present; for if an infinite number of men are already dead, than all the men that ever were or may be are dead, for infinito nihil pot●st ●ddi. Yea if the world should continue ten millions of years longer, there could not be after those ten millions of years more men in it, than there were ten millions of years before this present; for nothing can be added to that which is properly infinite, to make it greater in magnitude, or more in number, neither could the Father be before the Son, nor the gre●t Grandfather before or elder then either; nam in aternitate non datur prius & posterius. In this infinite duration, there is no former or latter, and consequently had the world been from all eternity, it could not truly be said, that any man was before another; not Abraham before Isaac, or he before Jacob.  Dub. 
You have made it very plain, that the world had a beginning, and consequently (because 'tis ridiculous to suppose that it had its beginning from itself, chance, or Atoms) that there is one supreme cause of infinite power and wisdom, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, and of all things therein contained, which is the Glorious and eternal God, of whose being I hope I shall hence forth never entertain the least doubt.  Firm. 
Though you seem to be well satisfied with these reasons, which I have urged for the being of God, yet because something in them are not so intelligible to men of ordinary Capacities, who perhaps may cast their eyes upon these papers; you shall give me leave to use other reasons that are more plain and familiar, and such as may persuade more with men of ordinary abilities, than those that I have proposed to you● self.  Dub. 
Though I am fully satisfied in that great fundamental point, yet in this I commend your Charity, and do not envy the satisfaction of others. But I believe you cannot allege more convincing reasons th●n those which you have already made use of; however I desire to hear what you can further say, for the Confirmation of this very great truth.  Firm. 
The other reason which I shall produce shall b● taken from the Goodly fabric of the world, the harmonious order of all things therein contained, the horror of conscience in wicked men; the dread of perjury in very heathens, the appearance of evil Spirits, their strange working in witches and wizards; which may be seen more largely treated of in Doctor Fotherbys Atheomastix, Doctor Andrews Cattechisme, Du-Plessis truth of Christian Religion, Grotius of the same, Doctor Moor's Antidote against Atheism, Parson's Resolutions, Doctor Stillingfleets Origines sacrae, Gales Gentiles Court, Mr. baxter's Christian Religion, with many others: I shall briefly sum up what these learned men have wrote at large, beginning with that argument which is taken from the Goodly fabric of the world. 1. 'twas excellently said of Tertul. lib. de Resur. facilius credas Prophetiae si sis discipulus naturae, if we be conversant in the works of nature, they will lead us to the knowledge and belief of Scripture. There is a most sweet harmony, betwixt those two Books, the Book of Nature and the Book of Grace. What is said of the one, monstrat Quaelibet herba Deum; every herb or plant does show there is a God, is most true of the Scripture; Quaelibet linea Deum refert, every line in this Book, shows us the power, providence, and wisdom of God.  
And if the Atheist will disdain to read this excellent Commentary upon the Book of nature, let him seriously peruse the Text, the harmonious beauty and order of the Universe. Plato and some other of the Ancients, were used to demonstrate the being of a Supreme Deity by a Clock; whose hammer when it striketh showeth the next wheel that moves it, that the next, and so forward until you come to the Clockmaker; who made all the wheels, and caused their regular motions.  
Another instance is commonly made use of, If a man should travel into a far Country, at present not inhabited, and there should behold some Goodly building, he would presently conclude it grew not out of the Ground, neither did the beast's make it, but 'twas the work of some ingenious Artists; Or if a man should behold a well ordered army of Soldiers, keeping rank and file, turning altogether (as if they were animated by one Soul) sometimes to the right hand, sometimes to the left, he would presently conclude that there was some expert Commander to direct them. Even so he that casts his Eye upon this Goodly Fabric of the world, must needs acknowledge the great Power and Wisdom of its Maker; He that shall seriously observe the harmonious order, the regular motions of its parts, must needs acknowledge the truth of that saying, Psal. 19.1. the heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth his ha●dy work. And Rom. 1.19. That which may be known of God is manifest in them, for the invisible things of God are clearly seen, by those things that are made; viz his eternal power and Godhead. Job. 26.7. He stretcheth out the North over t●e empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. Seriously consider what is wrote in the, 36.37.38. Chapt. etc. of that Book, besides many other excellent Texts in the holy Scripture, declaring how the Glory, wisdom, power of God is manifest in the admirable frame of the world, and the exquisite order and harmony of all things therein contained. See how the Heavens warm and water the Earth; how the earth, brings forth the grass, herbs, and plants▪ how these feed the beasts; how the beasts serve the several necessities of man; who is the only Creature (the immortal Angels excepted) that can in a rational manner serve, and set forth the glory of his Creator.  
O how desirable are all his works, and that a man may see even to a spark, ●ccles. 42.22. none so little as does not manifest the Glory, none so great, which is not subject to the Almighty power, and wise disposal of the Creatou●r.  
Behold the inanimate Creatures, how they declare it, the Sea whose proud waves are bounded by his power, Job. 38.11. of whose wonderful ebbing and flowing, no man is able to render a satisfactory account; certainly those that go down to the Sea in Ships, and do business in great waters, these men see the works of the Lord, and his w●nders in the deep. Ps. 107.  
The earth which contains so much rich treasure in the bowels of it, such v●riety of plants, herbs, flowers, both for use & delight in the Surface of it.  
The Air that compasseth about both Sea and Earth, receiving multitudes of vapours, and exhalations from them both, and returning them in grateful dews and sho●res.  
The wind that is brought out of God's treasury, no man knows whence it comes, nor whether it goes; the wisest Philosophers are at stand, they know nor what to say of it.  
The lightning and thunder, two terrible, yet very useful Creatures; frost and snow, and ice and hail, all which declare the Glory of God: see Psal. 147.148. But above all the inanimate Creatures, those that are above them, all in place and excellency, do magnify the Glory of their Creator; as the Sun, Moon, and Stars. O saith David, Psal. 8. when I consider the Moon and the Stars, which thou hast ordained, what is man that thou art so mindful of him, and the Son of man that thou visitest him?  
Look we on the animate Creatures, plants, herbs, flowers, grass, grain, how wonderfully they grow and multiply? consider their variety, beauty▪ virtue, pleasures, profits, monstrat Quaelibet herba Deum, every herb points out a Deity.  
Consider the fish in the Sea, the beasts in the Land, the fowls of the Air, see how they declare the glory of their maker, peruse with a serious and diligent Eye the, 39.40.41. Chap. of Job as before.  
Last of all, Thou stupid Creature, consider thyself, that art fearfully, and wonderfully made. View the excellent harmony, consent and use of all the parts in thy little world, with what dutiful care they serve each other, so that the head cannot say to the feet, I have no need of you; the Consideration of which excellent frame, and contexture of parts in the body of man, made the learned Galen stand amazed, and turned him from an Atheist, to confess, and believe a God, and to compose an hymn, in praise of his Almighty Creator.  
In a word if we consider the whole Creation, the harmony and Subordination of the several parts of that Goodly Fabric of the Universe; they do wonderfully declare the wisdom, power, and Glory of the omnipotent eternal maker of Heaven and Earth.  
If we behold how the Heavens serve the Earth, the Earth the Plants, these the Beasts, these man, whose great end and errand for which he was sent into this world, was to serve him, who made the inferior Creatures for man, and man for himself, we must needs break out into the Psalmists holy Rapture, O Lord how marveilous are thy works, in wisdom hast thou made them all: and he must certainly be a very unwise man, that doth not consider them, and a very Fool, that will not understand them.  Dub. 
From what you taught me a little before, that 'tis utterly impossible for any thing to make itself, or by the power of its own nature, and to spring out of nothing into something; and by what you have now delivered, from the goodly frame, and fabric of the world, and the harmonious order of its parts, 'tis evident that it owes not its original to chance, which is a very dream: 'tis as clear as the Sun at noon day, that their is an Allwise, an Almighty God, the Glorious maker of Heaven and Earth; however I pray you let me hear your other reason, from the sacred bond of Oaths, the horror of Conscience, etc.  Firm. 
'tis evident that very Heathens, and mere natural men, that have made no Conscience of telling a thousand lies, of drunkenness, fornification, theft, malice, envy, revenge, etc. durst not seriously and solemnly take one false o●th, for fear of divine vengeance which hath been executed upon perjured persons, as i● evident, from histories sacred and profane. 'Tis a most remarkable piece of history, which is related of three notorious villains, which did swear against Narcissus Bishop of Jerusalem; as Eusebius reports it, lib. 6. Chap. 18. of Eccl●s. Hist. And about the year 1661. we had a very signal instance of Divine justice, executed upon on G. at Ludlow, in the Council of the Marches, who taking a false oath in th●t Court, was strucken in the same place presently with sudden death. Such judgements as these against perjury were so frequently observed by some heathens, that when Diagoras hearing a man for swearing himself in a Court of Judicature, and being impatient to see that he was not presently thunder-stricken, became an Atheist, and because Sentence against so great an evil was not suddenly executed, therefore the heart of this fool, this wicked man, was fully set in him about that great mischief, to say there was no God. Psal. 14.1. Eccl. 8.11.  Dub. 
Some Pagans a●d false Christians, have dared to take false Oaths. The Jesuits (whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not) will swear anything, even solemnly in Courts of Justice, and therefore this argument▪ (impious me● dare not take a false oath, therefore there is a Deity or some Supreme power which they fear,) holds not, for the antecedent is evidently falls; but this is rational, strange horrors and terrors of conscience, and fearful judgements have followed perjured persons, (though no man knew they were so) therefore there is some invisible superior power whence such horrors and terrors and judgements proceed.  Frm. 
I do confess that there have been several perjured persons in former, and are in these present times, but for a full answer to this exception, see what is replied to another very like it Pag. 4. however I am content the argument should stand, as you have proposed it, strange horror and terrors of conscience, and fearful judgement have followed perjured persons, etc. which sufficiently proves what I intended, and therefore I proceed.  
Another argument very like to this, or which is rather an addition to the former, may be tak●n from the fears and torments of an evil conscience, even amongst the very heathens. Nero having killed his Mother, confessed that he was often troubled which her Ghost. The wretched Caligula at the report of a thunder clap would ●un under his bed. A thousand instances there are amongst heathen writers, of wicked men labouring under the fears and terrors of their own conscience, which Juvenal does describe to the life in one or two of his Satyrs. What should be the reason that mere Pagans, men having no knowledge of the true God, or of his Severity against wickedness, should be tormented with the sad prospect of some fearful judgement, attending upon their villainies though never so secretly practised, but the timor Numinis vindicantis, the fear of divine vengeance?  
A third argument may be drawn from the certainty that there are Devils, evil Spirits, together with their wicked Instruments, Witches, Magicians, Sorcerers, Conjurers, which none but a foolish Atheist (who will believe no further than his sight leads him) can doubt of. How frequently the Devil has appeared in this nation in times of gross ignorance's, and superstition, and how he does so still to the poor ' Indians th●t worship him for their God, is abundantly manifest by the tradition of our fore fathers, and the testimony of knowing Christians, that have been in those parts. What pranks and diabolical feats, have been acted by Witches and Conjurers, may be seen in those learned Authors, that have wrote against them; as Dr. Moor, and many others. And albeit the appearances of evil Spirits, Witchcrafts, etc. are not now so frequent in this nation as heretofore, in times of Popery, and dark Ignorance, yet does it not therefore follow, that all our forefathers were Melancholy Hypocondriacks, deceived themselves, and deceiving us with vain and groundless fancies: but the true reason is this, in times of ignorance, and superstition the Devil appears more frequently, to uphold his Kingdom over his vassals, and to confirm them in their false worship; but in times of knowledge and Gospel light, the Prince of Darkness uses all his arts to render men Sceptics in Religion, and of no Religion at all, Atheists, Infidels, Profane: so that his very appearing would pull down his Kingdom, which he exercises over these wretches, who like saducees believe neither Angel, nor Spirit, nor any thing further than they can see. Now the Prince o● the Air is too subtle to confute this Gro●s error in his best servants by any or often apparitions.  
The last reason I shall take from that allowed distinction that is betwixt good and evil, better and worse; which could not be, unless there were some measure of man's actions: and this measure must be a law, either written in man's heart, or instituted and written in books or tables; and thi● law must have a law maker, which must be able both to know, reward, and punish, not only man's words and actions, but his very thoughts, which none can do according to the exact rules of Justice, but he that is infinite in knowledge, and wisdom; that is, none but the omniscient God.  
Besides all this, there are degrees in good and evil; for of things that are good, some are better than others, of things that are evil some are worse than other. Now these degrees of good and evil, take their rise and fall by their approaching to, or declination from that which is summum bonum, or the chiefest good; so that, if there were no best, or chiefest good, there could be no better or worse, no good or evil at all, therefore there must be one infinite good.  
To conclude this first discourse; seeing the inclination of all People, to believe a God, the instinct of nature to confess it, the excellent fabric of the world to declare it, the force of wicked men's consciences to fear it; the Custom of civil nations to adore it, do abundantly prove that God is, yea doubtless that there is a God, that judgeth the earth, what a monstrous Creature is the fool Atheist, that saith in his heart there is no God?  Dub. 
Though I was abundantly satisfied with your former reasons against Atheism, yet I heartily thank you for these which you have here added, which though they are more largely treated on by several learned Authors, yet as you have briefly summed them up, they are more suitable to men of ordinary capacities, and of short discourse, who lose themselves in long treatises, and are apt to forget what they have read in the beginning of them, before they come to the middle, and are more tired with the length, then pleased with the soundness and excellency of such discourses.  
Sir being fully satisfied with your reasons against Atheism, I humbly beseech the Almighty Creator of heaven and earth, to bless them unto me, to preserve me from all profane, irreligious Courses, from practical Atheism, which by its own Natural propensity, and the just judgement of the most holy and righteous God, is the great cause of that which is Speculative and Dogmatical.   

DIALOGUE II. against Antiscrpturisme.  Firm. 
HAving given you such satisfaction about the being of God, as hath fully removed all your doubts concerning that first and great principle; if you please we will discourse of the other that is like unto it, the Divine Authority of the holy Scripture: for upon these two depend the great and weighty business of Religion. He that is steadfast in the belief of the being of God, and the truth of his mo●t sacred word, (if he be true to these great fundamentals) must of necessity be both an Orthodox and a serious Christian.  Dub. 
If you can give me as good satisfaction, in the divine Authority of Scripture, as you have in the being of an eternal God, Creator of heaven and earth, you will perform a work of greatest Charity, but I f●ar of as great difficulty.  Firm. 
Happily you may perceive some difficulty in it, but if you will make use of your reason, and lay aside all prejudicating opinions, which chiefly arise from that contrariety which is betwixt men's carnal corrupt hearts, and the holy and pure word of God, I hope by his blessing whose Cause I plead, to persuade you to give your full assent to this other great principle of Christianity.  Dub. 
I shall endeavour to weigh your reasons, in the balance of an even unbiased judgement, and to receive them, a●imo defaecato, with a mind free from the dregs of sensuality, interest, partiality, or prejudice.  Firm. 
Upon the confidence to find this ingenuity in you, I shall present you with these following reasons.  
1. You do belive that there is an omnipotent God, Creator of heaven and earth, that he made all things therein contained, that being infinite in wisdom and knowledge, he made all these things for some good end, that he hath ordered them to act and work, in such a manner as is suitable to their several natures, that in as much as they have their being, faculties, operations, from their all wise and Glorious maker, they are bound by the law of Creation, to do homage and service to him that made them.  Dub. 
All this I grant to be very rational.  Firm. 
These things being granted; that (not to mention other Creatures) as man had his being, reason, and understanding from Almighty God, so is he bound to serve him in that way and manner, which is agreeable to man's excellent nature, which must be therefore a reasonable service, which all the world, as well Pagans as Jews, and Christians call Religion, which according to all sober people comprehends duties of piety, as prayer, praises and sacrifices, duties of temperance, sobriety, and chastity, duties of honesty, justice, righteousness, and all morality.  Dub. 
There is nothing more evident, then that as there is a most wise and holy God, that made man, endued him with excellent faculties, of reason and understanding, so there is a debt and duty owing from man to God, his maker, which all the world calls Religion, and no people in the world were ever so barbarous, (says Cicero) as to be destitute of all Religion; yea there is such a tendency in▪ the nature of man (where 'tis not utterly extinguished by brutish sensuality) that rather than he will worship no God at all, he will bow down to a Sock, or a Stone; so that clear it is, if there be a God the Creator, and man by him created, there must of necessity be a Religion.  Firm. 
Truly nothing does more necessarily follow (as Du-Plessis has well observed) then a God, a man, a Religion. But if Almighty God did make man to worship him, sure he gave him some rules for that worship, some law to direct him in this great concern of his Soul.  Dub. 
I cannot deny it; and that this law was no law written in paper, or engraven in tables of stone, but the law of nature written in man's heart; which made Tertullian, utter these excellent words, o ani●a naturaliter Christiana, o Divine Soul that art naturally a Christian. We see that the fire ascends, the water moves towards the Centre, birds make their nests, Beasts feed their young, not by any outward positive law, but by the unerring hand of nature, and may not man that has a natural inclination to serve his maker, perform this service without any institued law, or prescribed Canon.  Firm. 
there's no disputing against experience; you see he does not, and when you shall embrace, and understand the holy Scriptures, you will see he cannot by reason of his fall from that perfect sta●e, in which he was first made, whereas the inferior Creatures kept their Station.  Dub. 
I confess there are different Religions in the world, opposite one to another, so that all of them cannot be in the right way of worshipping God; some of necessity must be false and erroneous.  Firm. 
If of all religions in the world, all are not in the right, how will you know which is the true Religion, which is the false? This you cannot discern by any imprinted law or light of nature (unless excited by Art and industry) which is in some measure common to all men that are not natural fools, and Madmen, stupid inconsiderate wretches, or debauched bruits, whose reason is ●unk down into gross Sensuality.  Dub. 
'tis very true, if the mere light of nature were sufficient to point out the true Religion, I am not able to say why so many Sober men, in several parts of the world, who have not debauched their Reason, and judgement should so strangely differ about it.  Firm. 
I believe you cannot, nor yet why Jew's and Pagans did offer up bloody Sacrifices to these Deitys, they worshipped. Does any light of nature make it rational that the Gods should be pleased with the blood of poor innocent Beasts? or is it rational to imagine that they should delight in humane sacrifices?  Dub. 
I must acknowledge I do not understand, how the light of nature should teach men, that such Sacrifices should please the Gods. I have often wondered at this part of worship used by Jews, and Gentiles; pray Sir, give yourself the trouble, of informing me whence this practice sprang?  Firm. 
You are satisfied that it had not its original from the light of nature; for albeit, some kind of Sacrifices as Prayers, praises, alms-deeds, and it may be the offering of the Fruits of the Earth, Deo datori, to God that gave them, might spring from that light, yet the Sacrificing of Beasts was never showed, to Jew or Gentile by nature's Candle, but was after the fall of man, appointed by Almighty God to prefigure the Grand propitiatory Sacrifice, which was to be made by the blood of him, that was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which the Devil (who is termed God's Ape) taught his servants the Gentiles to imitate, who had the shell but not the kernel, the shadow, but not the substance, the outward rite, but not Christ crucified, represented by it.  Dub. 
I do acknowledge that the Sacrificing of beasts came not from the light of nature; and you seem to make it probable that 'twas from divine revelation, and positive institution.  Firm. 
You will be better satisfied, when you shall consider, That the founders of all Religions in the world, did pretend to Revelations, Numa, Lycurgus, Mahomet, etc. which the devil taught them to do in imitation of Moses and the rest of the holy Prophets, who spoke as they were moved by God. 2. Pet. 1.20.  
Now there being but Four Religions in the world, judaism, Christianity, Paganism, and Mahometism; If I shall prove unto you that Christianity, (whose rule and foundation is the holy Scripture) is the only true Religion, and the other Three false, I hope you will grant that the foundation on which it stands is the true Revelation, and consequently that the Scripture is no invention of man, but given by Inspiration and Revelation from God, which is the sum of my first Argument.  Dub. 
If you can prove that the other Three Religions are false, 'twill necessarily follow, that the Revelations to which they pretend are likewise false.  Firm. 
This I shall easily do; beginning with Paganism, which consists in the worshipping of the C●●●tures▪ 1. The Sun, Moon, and all the Host of Heaven; 2. d●●d men; that called Sabaisme, this H●ll●nisme, from the nations that fi●st used these modes of worship, of both which we have a short account, in the book of Wisdom, chap. 13. and 14. but more fully in Vossius de Idola●ria, and in the Author of the Gentiles Court, who hath m●de use of divers excellent men, that have wrote of this Subject.  
That this Religion of Pagans was against the l●w, and light of nature, both in respect of the things worshipped, and also in respect of the abominable ●ites and Ceremonies, any man that has the least spark of that light remaining in him, may ●asily discern.  
First, The things worshipped were the Creatures, some of them that never had life, others th●t once lived but are now dead, whose ghosts or Manes the Heathens imagined to be confined to their Idols; whereas no Creature can be c●pable of Religious worship; for 'tis repugnant to all right reason, that one Creature should thus worship another, God alone being the proper object of such worship, because in him we live, move, and have our being, and he it is that gives us life and breath, and all things; therefore Deo datori, to God the Creator, and giver of all good things, all religious worship is only due.  
Besides some of the wiser Heathens, acknowledge that there could be but one God; 'twas a common saying amongst them, dicite plures, dicite nullum, 'tis all one to say there are many Gods, as to say there is no God, for the notion which they had of God, was that he was ens infinitum, a being of infinite power and perfection; but natural reason showed them that there could be but one infinite, because infinite power, and infinite perfection, comprehends all power and perfection, and therefore it cannot be communicated to many, or more than one.  
Secondly, Their Rites and Ceremonies were so ridiculous, and so filthy, that the Apostle styles them abominable Idolatries, 'tis against the rules of Christian modesty, either to hear or speak of them. He that desires to see Paganism smartly and solidly confuted, let him peruse the ancient Fathers, Lactantius, Arnobius, Minutius felix, Eusebius, Clemens Alexandrinus, St. Augustine de Civitate Dei, etc.  Dub. 
I always conceived Paganism, to be a most vain and vile superstition, contrary to the very light of nature, and I am no better persuaded of Mahometism, however I desire to hear your reasons against it.  Firm. 
You may please to receive them thus; my first reason shall be taken from the novelty of, it being not much above a Thousand years since that false Prophet Mahomet published his rhapsody of nonsense, fabulous fictions, and damnable Blasphemies to the world.  
First, From which I thus argue, truth is before falsehood, Illud verum quod antiquum; seeing the world is now above 5500 years old, and seeing Religion has been practised in it from the Creation, 'tis absurd to imagine, there was no true Religion before Mahomet, or that the infinite goodness and wisdom of God, should suffer gross errors to infect the whole world at least 3000 years before the true worship of his holy name was known unto men.  
Secondly, Mahometism is a mixture of Judaisme, Heresy, and Paganism, with some sprinklings of Christianity, A bundle of ridiculous fables, prodigious lies, as is evident to any that shall peruse the Alcoran.  
Thirdly, 'Twas propagated by the Sword, and such carnal weapons, by sensual motives, and promises of fleshly pleasures, to be enjoyed by all those that should be followers of that grand impostor, which are so unworthy of the rational soul, that they cannot be called the cords of man, but are only proper allurements for those whose reason is sunk down into brutish sensuality.  Dub. 
These reasons do sufficiently manifest the folly and falseness of this new or rather no Religion, but pray you inform me why you rank Judaisme in the number of false religious, seeing 'tis grounded on the Scriptures of the Old Testament, which you believe to be a divine Revelation.  Firm. 
When I reckon Judaisme amongst false Religions, I mean only that religion which is professed by the modern Jews, under & against the Gospel, not that which their forefathers under the law lived and died in. Since the fall of Adam unto the end of the world there was and shall be but one true Religion, consisting of Repentance from dead works, holy obedience, and faith in Jesus Christ; so that the fathers before the law, the Israelites under the law, the Christians under the Gospel, were and are of one and the same Religion, for the substance of it; 1 Cor. 10.1.2.3. they did believe in Christ to come, the Christians do believe that he is already come; to them he was vailed in Types and shadows▪ to us he is revealed, and those shadows are vanished at the rising of the Sun of Righteousness with healing in his wings.  Dub. 
By what you have said 'tis evident, tha● all Religions that are and ever were in the world, (except the Jewish under the law and the Christian under the Gospel, which are for substance the very same) are utterly false, and consequently their pretended Revelations, on which they are built, the inventions of men and Satanical Delusions; and that the Christian and the ancient Jewish being the only true Religion, it must follow that the Old and New Testament is the only certain and divine Revelation; your Argument appears to be very concluding; I pray you proceed.  Firm. 
My second argument shall be taken from the excellency and reasonableness of Christian Religion.  
First. This Religion is most holy and spiritual; resolving itself into most excellent principles and ends; the Glorifying of God and humbling man, pointing out unto us the most divine and heavenly life in the love and service of our Creator, in the dedication and devotion of our souls unto him, in whom we live move and have our being, placing our felicity in spiritual, not in fleshly pleasures, the rule of it (being holy scripture) contains laws most holy, most pure, most righteous. Let all the world if they can answer the challenge made by Moses. Deu. 4.8. what nation is there so great that has Statues and judgements so Righteous, as all the Law which is set before you this day? which as to their clearness are highly improved under the Gospel, engaging us upon higher and more heavenly motives: those under the Law being for the most part Temporal; to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live Soberly, Righteously, and Godly in this present world. Tit. 2." 12. There is no virtue which Christian Religion commendeth not, 
R. B.  no duty which it commandeth not, no vice, no sin, which it does not condemn; no Religion, doth so much condemn Pride, worldly-mindedness, sensuality, filthy lusts, a poor, private, narrow Spirit, selfishness, as this, no Religion doth so much commend humility, meekness▪ selfe-denyal, charity, peace, unity; no religion doth so much exalt reason above passion and sense, doth so much ennoble the Spirit of man, making it to look upon the Riches honours pleasures of the world, as so many vain shadows, deluding dreams, transitory nothings; the great design of it is not carnal and worldly, but high and heavenly, as to set forth t●e Glo●y of God, to lift up the Soul above the Creature, to lead man by the way of holiness to everlasting happiness.  
This Religion gives us the highest motives for" the sincere practice of Piety, and all manner of virtuous living th●t possible c●n be, the pleasures of an holy life here, the enjoyment of everlasting happiness hereafter; it gives the strongest reasons against the power o● temptation's, te●●hing us to mortify the lusts of the flesh, an● to contemn the vanities of the world, putting the joys of Heaven, the torments of Hell, the love of God in the balance, against the pleasures of sin, whi●h are no more than a feather to the massy glob of the earth.  
" Lastly, Christian Religion from holy Scripture, on which 'tis founded, doth reve●l unto us the nature, attributes, and works of God, beyond all the Religions that ever were in the world; how doth it magnify and reconcile the justi●e and mercy of God towards sinful man? How do●h it set forth the infinite power and wisdom of ●o●▪ in making the world of nothing, in such an excellent form and beauty, which has drawn all ●o●sidering men into an admiration of the goodly fabric of it? Yet the must acute Philosophers were at a loss how and when 'twas made, whether 'twas from all eternity, or had a beginning in time; whether 'twas m●de of preexistent m●tter, o● of the fortuitous concourse of Atoms; whi●h fond opinions deserve not any serious confutation.  
" But the holy Scripture doth ●le●rly solve all these doubts▪ & is indeed the best Comment on the book of Nature, and doth give such an account of the original of the world, the time and method of its production, the peopling of nations, the confusion of languages, the depravation of nature, which the Heathens understanding not, fancied two principals, one good, the other evil; from which all the good and evil in the world did proceed. Man's recovery by the sacrificing of the Son of God, for want of the knowledge and belief thereof, all the bloody sacrifices practised by the Heathens, were mere Impostures, and ridiculous nothings; these, and divers other mysteries far above man's capacity to devise, and not within the compass of natural corrupt reason, are made plain unto us by Scripture Revelation; which does abundantly prove that none but an infinite God could be Author of this Divine Revelation, of which those of the Heathens, & that of Mahomet, were" so many apish imitations & diabolical cheats.  Dub. 
I am fully satisfied by the characters which you have given of the Religion in practice with the people of God (especially with the Christians) that the rule and measure of it must be from heaven & not from men, and consequently that all holy Scripture is divinely inspired, & is the word of the eternal God.  Firm. 
I could further acquaint you with many mo●e reasons to confirm you in this great truth, which are common in every Author that treats of it; ●s namely the Antiquity of holy Scripture, some part of it being before all writings; the continuance of it by an extraordinary providence, notwithstanding the rage and malice of cruel bloody persecutors, the sincerity, impartiality, candour, simplicity of its writers, quibus nullum fuit mendac two praemium, they had no earthly motives to persuade them to utter such forgeries (as Atheist deem them to be) nothing but bonds and imprisonments, losses of goods and lives. Again it must be acknowledged, that the Penmen of the Scripture, were very good men, or very bad, (for men of a cold indifferency they could not be.) If they were very good men, they would never have conspired together, to put such a cheat, such a grand imposture upon the world (as Antiscripturists would have the word of God to be.) If very bad, they would never have wrote with so much zeal, and earnestness against all manner of wickedness, and especially, against Lying and Hypocrisy. Certainly they would never have exposed themselves, to hazard lives and fortunes for no other reward, then to be esteemed both Knaves and Fools by all prudent men. Add to this that Liars and Cheats do not usually agree one with the other; but there is such a sweet harmony & consent betwixt the Penmen of Holy writ, though they lived at so great a distance from one another, that questionless they were acted by one and the same infallible spirit.  
Lastly, The averseness, the slowness that is in our corrupt hearts to believe all that is written in the Law and the Prophets, Luke 24.25. arising from that contrariety which is betwixt the holy and spiritual word of God, and our carnal and depraved minds, is no small proof of the truth of it, for 'tis otherwise impossible to render any rational account, why we should doubt, or disbelieve this sacred word, and never once question the truth of ordinary and common Histories, which are conveyed down unto us, not with the tenth part of that evidence which we have of the truth of holy Scripture.  
But waving these reasons, I shall only mention Two of the best which are urged against Infidelity, to bring up the rear of my discourse. The First whereof shall be taken from the fulfilling of Prophecies; the other from Miracles, which are the Seals of this our Magna Charta.  Dub. 
Tho I am sufficiently confirmed in the truth of this great principle, by what you have already said, yet I would most gladly hear your Arguments from Prophecies and Miracles.  Firm. 
First for Prophecies, I shall acquaint you with some few out of the Old Testament, to which your own reading may suggest many more, which were exactly fulfilled according as they were foretold.  Dub. 
Did not Astrologers, and Heathen Oracles foretell many things that came to pass as they were foretold?  Firm. 
I grant it; but hear what judgement a learned Heathen passes upon them. The Gods do foretell some natural things to come, for that they observe the order & conjunction of their natural causes, but of things that are contingent, or such as do depend upon the will of man, they have but conjectures and do often times lie, and deceive us in both kinds, for as natural things are variable so much more the will of man; Porphyrius lib. de Resp. & ora●. cited by Parsons in his Resol. pag. 62.  Dub. 
This testimony of Porphyrius being an Heathen and a great enemy to Christianity is very considerable, and experience shows it to be very true, for Oracle's have deceived many; and we see that Astrologers; can give no certain predictions concerning the weather which depends upon natural causes; and therefore I desire you to she● me, if you can, any Prophecies of Scripture, that are more certain.  Firm. 
I shall begin with that of Abraham, concerning his posterities inheriting the Land of promise; of their servitude in a strange Land; of their mighty deliverance 400 years before it came to pass, you may for this compare, Cen. 15.13.14. etc. with Exod. 12.  
Second, jacob being in Egypt on his death bed, prophesied thus of his ●on judah, that the Sceptre should not depart from him, until Shilo came, which fell out accordingly at the birth of our Saviour, at which time the Sceptre was in the h●nd of a stranger, Herod by name, and then, and not till then, it finally departed from juda.  
Third, 'Twas Prophesied of Iosias ●00 years before he was born, that he should destroy the Altar at Bethel. 1. Kings. 13. which was exactly fulfiled. 2. Kings. 23.  
Fourth, You may see how punctual the Prophet Isaiah is in foretelling the nativity, the life, the passion of our blessed Saviour, in so much that he writeth more like an Historian than a Prophet, as also how he foretells the destruction of Hier●salem, and the grievous Captivity of the Jews by, and under, the Babylonians, and then the destruction of the Babylonians and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, by Cyrus 200 years before he was born; the same was foretold by jeremy, about a 100 years after Isaiah, and these Prophecies were so famous, and so certainly believed, amongst the Jews in the time of their captivity, that when the time of their expiration drew near; Daniel thus writeth of himself; In the first year of Darius, I Daniel understood in the Scripture, the number of the 70 years, etc. Dan. 9.1.  
Neither did the Jews only understand and believe this Prophecy, but Cyrus himself an Heathen: which was his great inducement to restore the Jews and rebuild the Temple at his own proper charges; Ezra. 1. And Heathen Historians confess as much.  
Fifth, The Prophecy of Daniel, concerning the four great Monarchies, is so clear and evident, so distinctly described as if he had lived in them all, Dan. 2. and Dan. 8. how also he foretold the coming and suffering of the Messias after 70 weeks, cap. 9 many more of such Prophecies might be alleged, but these are abundantly sufficient, to attest the divine authority of Scripture.  Dub. 
'tis very true if you could prove there were ever such Prophets, or Prophecys in the world.  Firm. 
What proof do you expect? will you believe nothing but what you see with your own eyes?  Dub. 
That were irrational, if you can prove by a certain tradition, that there were ever such Prophecies, delivered by such men, as you name, I shall assent unto them.  Firm. 
This I shall perform; first from the whole nation of the Jews, which have delivered them from Father to Son, down along for many generation; do you think that a people so careful and diligent in the keeping and transcribing their records, could, or would agree together, upon no worldly interest at all, yea even to the hazard of their lives, and fortunes to abuse themselves and their posterity?  Dub. 
I confess 'tis not very probable; but have you any other proof, for the certainty of these Prophecies?  Firm. 
Yes, From the Testimony of very Heathens: 'Tis said by josephus. lib. 1, de Antiq. jud. cap. 4. that the public writings of the Syreans, Chaldaeans, Phoenicians, Grecians, are sufficient to testify the antiquity, truth, authority, and certainity, of Holy Scriptures, if there were no other proof in the world beside. There is scarce a memorable passage in the Old Testament but 'tis mentioned by some Heathen writer, as the Creation of the world, Noah's Flood, the Confusion of Tongues, the Children of Israel's living in, and coming out of the land of Egyp●, the writings of Moses, the Babylonish Captivity, etc. as you may see in Euseb. Grotius, de verit Christ. Relig. Parsons Resol. Cap. 3. lib. 1. part. 1.  Dub. 
Indeed a Testimony from an adversary is beyond all exception, I rest satisfied with what you have said, for the Authority of the Old Testament; have you any thing to say for the New, more than what you have said in general for them both together?  Firm. 
Yes; I have the miracles of our Saviour, and his blessed Apostles, wrought for the confirmation of what they taught, acknoledged by Heathens, Grotius de ver. Chris. Relig. Besides if you assent to the Divine Authority of the Old Testament, you must acknowledge the Divinity of the New, which is for the most part, nothing else but an explication of the Old, and the history of those Prophecies, now fulfiled, which were delivered by the Prophets, who lived in the time of the law.  
You may add to this the miraculous preservation of both Testaments, not withstanding the malice of persecuting Heathens; who used all arts of cruelty to extinguish them; the propagation of the Christian Religion, into so many parts of the prejudicating world, without, yea contrary to all carnal force and worldly interest, by a few simple unlearned men, which if 'twas done without a Miracle, was one of the greatest Miracles that ever we read of. To this may be added the opposition of many subtle Heretics, who never durst so much as question the Authority of the Scripture, but rather betook themselves to their own false glosses, that they might shift of those clear texts which made against them; whereas it had been a more Compendious way to have utterly denied them, if their impudence had been so great, as to oppose the general belief, of those times wherein they lived.  Dub. 
Tho I am sufficiently convinced, of the divine Authority of the Scripture, and of the truth of those Miracles which were wrought by Christ and his Apostles for the confirmation of what they taught; yet to remove all scruples that may be made against them, I shall desire to be more fully satisfied in two exceptions that are urged by Antiscripturists.  
1. That they were no true Miracles.  
2. That we have no certainty that there were ever such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles, or that they ever wrought such mighty works as are recorded of them in the New Testament.  Firm. 
That there were such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles, that they wrought those Miracles which are mentioned in the History of them, both Jews and Gentiles, (sworn enemies to Christianity,) acknowledge, but besides their Testimony (which being from adversaries is v●●y cogent) we have the tradition of the Catholic Church in all ages, and most places of the world, for 1600 years and upwards; and as he that will go up by the side of the River will at last come to the head and fountain of it, so he that shall ascend through the several Centuries of the Church, will at last infallibly come to the head of it Christ jesus; to the place of his Nativity; his Preaching and mighty Works that he did; his bitter death and bloody passion; or if he shall descend from Christ, through the same Centuries, down to this present time, he may be far more certain, of the birth, and life, and works, and sufferings of this our bessed Saviour, of the writings of the Holy Evangelists, and Apostles, then that there have been such men in the world as Alexander the great, julius Caesar, Pompey, Scipio, Hannibal, of the Wars, and noble Acheivements managed by them, of William the Conqueror, the Baron's wars, and yet none but a fool or a mad man, or one that has vowed to believe no farther then what he can see with his own eyes, will doubt of these; for that the tradition which conveys the same of these Worthies, and their Actions down unto us, is nothing so general as that of the Catholic Church, neither is it at all practical, but purely historical, wherein we are not at all concerned, whether or no the things reported of those noble warriors be true or false.  Dub. 
He that will not assent to what is delivered by universal Tradition, takes away the use of one of the most noble Sciences in the world, viz. History; and wants rather a Cudgel then an Argument to confute him. 'tis evident by undeniable tradition, that there were such persons as Christ and his Apostles, that they did great and marvellous things, but how shall we know whether the works which they did were true miracles? surely 'tis very difficult, to know what is true and what is an imposture.  Firm. 
Tho' at present this may appear difficult to you, yet I hope I shall make this difference as manifest to you, as is that which is betwixt Gold and dross. And here I will not trouble you with the niceties of the schoolmen betwixt mirum & miraculum; that a true miracle is arduum, insoli●um, supra vim naturae, hard, unusual, and above the powèr of nature; that it differs from a ●alse one in the efficient, material, and formal cause, which is ignotum per ignotius.  
But to wave such subtleties, a true miracle may be known from a false one,  
1. By the success; as Exod. 7.12. 'tis said Aaron's rod swallowed up those of the sorcerers, and in the primitive times, 'tis clear how the miracles wrought by the Apostles, swallowed up in effect all false ones, ●one by satins Instruments; how (notwithstanding all those lying wonders, wrought by Simon Magus, Apollonius, and others the prejudicating world was brought over from Idolatry and superstition, to embrace poor persecuted Christianity, by those true miracles▪ which otherwise had been the greatest miracle in the world.  
2. A true miracle may be known from that which is a jugle or imposture, by the design or end of it, which is for the confirmation of a divine revelation, to bring men over to the worship of the true God, to propagate the true Religion, the end of false ones is to draw men from this worship, which note of difference God himself has stamped upon false miracles, Deut. 13▪  Dub. 
But do not you now run into the same error which you so lately condemned in others? for by what you have said I must first know which is the true Religion, before I can know which is a true miracle, and surely then there will be no use of miracles, to confirm me in the truth, of what I knew before.  Firm. 
there is a mutual confirmation, betwixt the true religion, and a true miracle; true Religion does give light to miracles, these do seal and confirm that Religion. We see that all discursive knowledge, does arise from some precedent knowledge, until we ascend to such principles, that are clear to the light of nature, now evident it is to natural reason, that there is a God, Creator of all things; that there is but one God, that this one God ought to be religiously worshipped, the intelligent and learned heathens, have acknowledged all these: Again 'tis evident that there were never but four general Religions in the world, Paganism, Turkism, Judaisme and Christianity, and I think I have already made it manifest, that of all these Religions, none is so rational or such a reasonable service, as is that of the Christian; which for the substance of it is the oldest of all others, being the same which was practised, by the fathers both before and after the flood, for the spirituality, morality, and unity of the God hea● worshipped, 'tis excellent beyond all others, most agreeable to the Common principles and notices of the reasonable Soul.  
Here upon any serious sober man, may conclude that all these miracles which have been attempted to draw men from Christianity, are but mere impostures, and those that have been wrought for the confirmation of it, wherein one true God of infinite majesty, wisdom, power, and glory, is worshipped in spirit and truth, are the only true miracles.  Dub. 
Pray Sir excuse me this unnecessary trouble which I have given you; for by what you had said before concerning, the supereminent excellency of the Christian Religion, above all others, I might have seen the force of your reasoning, which (as I conceive stands thus▪ If the Christian Religion be the only true Religion than those miracles which were wrought for the Confirmation of it, are the only true miracles.  Firm. 
You rightly conclude: I shall therefore proceed to the third note or mark of a true mir●cle, and that is the effect and consequent of such a miracle, which is the drawing of the mind from sin to God, the primitive Christians much insisted on this as an undoub●ed evidence of t●e miracles wrought by Christ, that they were done by divine power, because the effect that followed them was the work of conversion of Sou●● from sin and Idols, to Go● and Christ▪ and all true piety and holiness of life; they tended mainly to the overthrow of Satan's Kingdom. Christ by his miracles did not only dispossess Satan out of men's bodies, but out of his Temples; upon this accou●t he convinces the Scribes and pharisees, of most irrational blasphemy, when they objected against him, that he did cast out devils by the power of the devil; but he replied, every Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Mat. 12.25.  
Besides, Christ's doctrine, which he confirmed by miracles, was in every thing cont●●●y to the devil's design; which was to draw men from the worship of the true God, that himself might be worshipped, to ensnare men in the practice of the greatest wickedness under a pretence of Religion, as is very observable in all heathen mysteries; which indeed were very mysteries of iniquity, abominable Idolatry, not to be named to modest ears. Dr. Stillingfleets Orig. Sac. lib. 2. Cap. 10.  
4. True miracles differ from diabolical impostures in three particolars, 1. in the manner of their working, 2. their number, 3. the quality of ●hings wrought by them.  
1. The impostares of Satan were done by a great deal o● pomp and Ceremony, magical rites, char●es and medicines: what Christ did was with a words speaking▪ yea by the very touch o● his garm●●●.  
2. For their number, those Satanical juggling were comparatively very few: there were not many that were cured by the devil and his instruments; but Christ cured whole multitudes, and that not in the Revestryes of the te●ple, where fraud and imposture might be easily suspected, but in the presence of the people, Arno●ius's objection against the Gentiles is very rational, what wonder is it to show one or two cured? when thousands lie continually in your temples languishing for want of cure, which 〈◊〉 e●en weary your God Escula●ius with prayers and tears, but could have no help ●rom him, with all their importunities.  
3. For the quality of things pretended to be done by miracles; the cures among the heathens were some slight things, in Comparison of those performed by Christ: what heathen juggler did ever open the eyes of any man that was born blind, make the dumb to speak, the lame to walk, or raise the dead by a words speaking, or by a touch of the hand? See Dr. S●illingfl●ets book before cited.  
There is one other argument made use of by the learned Dr. Hammond, in his tract of the reasonableness of Christian Religion, (which ● friend caused me to remember) for the confirmation of the truth of this divine Revelation. This learned man proves the mission and doctrine of Jesus Christ, from that high testimony, wh●ch God the father gave him, by a voice from heaven, coming out of the midst of thunder; which way of Revelation was known to the Jews by the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the daughter of a voice, and by this God did three times give testimony unto Christ, 1 immediately after his baptism, 2. at his transfiguration; 3. a little before his death, and all in the presence of sufficient witnesses: this testimony of God the father given three several times, d●d ●ully ratify the doctrine of Christ contained in the scriptures of the New Testament; God gave ●he very same testimony to Moses and h●s doctrine, and ●hat in the sight and audience of many thousands. Exod. 19.16.  
Thi● Mo●●s often reminds the people of, especially Deut. 4.32.33. where he tells them that never any people did hear the voice of God, out of ●●e midst of the fire, as they had done and thi●●ay o●●e●●lation, seems to be so suitable to the 〈…〉 of almighty God, and so pecu●●●r ●o hi●, that the devil, who in other things, 〈◊〉 A●e never attempted to imitate God in t●● 〈◊〉, nor do I believe) he was ever a●●e. G●● h●ving restrained him by ●his omnipotent 〈◊〉 ●nd re●erved this way of Revelation pe●●●● 〈…〉.  D●b. 
〈◊〉 Discourse hath been so rational, that 〈…〉 (as agrippa's) almost persuaded to be a 〈…〉 bu●●●together such as you are, as to 〈◊〉 too great principle● of Christianity, concerning ●he being of God, and the Divine Authority ●f ●oly Scripture: and methinks I see all false Religion's fall fl●t on their faces, before these great truth's, as Dagon did before the Ark.  Firm. 
No marviell, for he that doth firmly believe that God is, and that the Scripture is his word, must needs abominate those false worships, which are ●o extremely contrary to his divine nature, and his most sacred writ; but seeing you are so well persuaded of these principles, I shall not trouble you with any more reasons for the confirmation of them; only if you shall hereafter meet with any scoffing Atheist or infidel that shall deny either of them, you may for conclusion of all, press upon him this dilemma or forked argument. Either 'tis true there is a God, and the Scripture is his word, or 'tis not true: suppose these things be not true, yet thou believest them to be so, thou art only in an error for this short span of time; but what if they prove, undoutedly true, and thou dost not believe them, to be so, than thou art eternally damned: now what a madness is it for any man, for the avoiding of a seeming temporary error, to come within the danger of everlasting damnation?  Dub. 
This argument might startle any Atheist and make him consider with himself how sad his Condition will be, if these things be so as solid and undeniable reasons do demonstrate, and yet he should live and die an infidel. O what will become of such an one unto all eternity? I am full of wonder and amazement, that seeing there are such convincing reasons against Atheism and infidelity, that there should be any such Creatures upon the face of the earth, when certainly there are none such in hell, for the devil believes and trembles.  Firm. 
You will cease to wonder, when you shall rightly consider, the certain reasons of those gross errors; which are,  
1. Drollery and foolish jesting, which renders men inconsiderate and mindless, even in the affairs of the world, much more in the things of eternity: a man that is given to Droll, and jest, is uncapable of any serious business.  
2. Many men are men of short discourse, they do not understand the force of an argument, by reason of the weakness of their discursive faculty, which is altogether rusty for want of use, exercise, and ingenious education: though in the book of nature, the eternal power and Godhead of the Almighty, be wrote in large Characters, yet every one, cannot Read in that book, no more than he that never went to school, can read the Primer, half psalter, or any book of the fairest print.  Dub. 
This is true of many simple and illiterate men; that are very brutes, not at all to be distinguished from the beasts that perish, but by the erect figure of their bodies: their Rational souls, mean while being sunk down into mere sensuality, such as have not God in all their thoughts, they trouble not themselves to think of him, either that he is, or is not: these digenerate Creatures do not concern themselves in matters of Religion; but (I hope) you wil● not say that the witt● of the time, are such ignorant Animals.  Firm. 
I shall not doubt to affirm it, and that for these reasons.  
1. You may observe that these witty men are persons of no serious or solid judgements, especially in things of highest concernment: they are such as spend their time in idleness, Drollery, vain Recreations; so that albeit the Lord has given them those two great books to read in, that of nature, and the holy scripture, yet they vouchsafe not to read or meditate upon either.  
2. They are under a judicial blindness; God has given them reason and understanding, eyes that they might see, hearts that they might understand; but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light, and then by the just judgement of Almighty God, this light is taken from them; they are given up to blindness of mind, and hardness of heart, as were the ancient heathens. Rome 1.  
3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God, to his sacred word: there is an antipathy, an enmity betwixt their Debaucheries, their filthiness, their profaneness, and his most holy laws, Rom. 8.7. every line of it flies in their faces, threatening them with hell and damnation: whereupon they cavil with, they quarrel against it, they wish there were neither God to punish, nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them, and so by insensible degrees, they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God, as the fool did, Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet, quod nimis miseri volunt, hoc facile cr●dunt, the though●● and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires, they hate the light because their deeds are evil, though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments, and reasons of the truth of these great principles, yet they will not believe them; such is the perverseness of their will, that it either blinds their mind, or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lie, and to hold the conclusion, against the most evident proofs and premises.  Dub. 
I am persuaded, that you have given very good reasons, why so many are Atheists and infidels, and that the chiefest of them are irreligious and profane livers, that practical Atheism is the greatest cause of that which i● dogmatic or Atheism in opinion. 'Twas the fool that said in his heart, there wa● no God: first he was a fool, i. e. a sinner, and very wicked, as he is described in that psalm; and thence he proceeded Atheist: a fool in practice, and then a fool in judgement, for 'tis most certain, that a corrupt, and wicked life, is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions, fro● which by God's blessing upon your good endeavoures, I am now delivered, and am fully persuaded, that God is, and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seek him, that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God, and consequently that the Christian Religion, is the only true religion, but observing that of those who profess this Religion, there are several parties, and 'tis not unknown to you, that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome, I would willingly learn from you, which party, they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholic.  Firm: 
Your demand is rational, I shall most willingly Gratify you in it● o●ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you, and let me receive your answer unto them at our next meeting.  
1. What Inducements you had to turn to the Church of Rome?  
2. What Reasons you had to leave it?  Dub. 
You must give me leave also, to recollect myself, that I may be ●he better able, to give in my answer to your Queries.   

DIALOGUE III, Against POPERY.  Firm. 
I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you.  Dub. 
To the first I return this answer, My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these.  
1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time, when by the testimony of St. Paul, her faith was spoken of throughout the world. Rom. 1.8.  
2. The universality of it; no Church has spread itself, so far and ne'er upon the face of the earth, as that of Rome.  
3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church.  
4. The unity of it, under one infallible head which cannot err in point of faith or manners.  
5 The sanctity of its Doctrine; that 'tis free from error in matters of ●aith; free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners.  
6. The sanctity of life, in the authors, and first-fathers', of the Roman Religion: these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome.  Firm. 
Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bella●mine Lib. 4. the not. Eccle. and others of his persuasion appropriate to that Church: but had you not some other inducements? As first a vicious life, and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest, his absolution and injunction of a pitiful penance. 2dly, were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition? or 3dly, were you not ambitious of preferment, deeming popery to be a ready way to it? or 4thly, were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtle Jesuit, lamenting your sad Condition, that a person o● so rare endowments, should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soul, persuading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation, and that you being no member of the Church of Rome, were past all peradventure out of the Church, and unless you returned to that Church, there could be no hope of your salvation? or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome, were you serious and conscientious in any Religion? for 'tis very easy for one that is of no Religion, that makes no conscience of his ways, being alured with the joyed of heaven, and affrighted with the terrors of Hell, to pitch upon any Religion, that confidently promises those, and as confidently a freedom from these: and we know that Priests and Jesuits want neither art nor impudence to perswage silly wretches, that hopes of Heaven, and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church.  Dub. 
Truly Sir I am verily persuaded, that many who have left your Church, and gone over to that of Rome, have stumbled at such straws: but you have known me long, to be a man of no vicious life, no male Content, not ambitious of honour or preferment, not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts, not cold or careless in point of Religion; but the chief reasons that moved me to go over to the Church of Rome, were those before named, which made me believe that Church, to be the only true Catholic Church, out of which there could be no hope of salvation; to these I beg your answer.  Firm. 
And you shall have it.  
1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient, Catholic, and Apostolical, is in several weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture, neither hath it the general consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church: the present Church of Rome, is no more like to what it once was, in the purest primitive times▪ than an old decrepit man full of diseases, Gout, Stone, Palsy, Dropsy, Scurvy, Blindness, Deafness, Wrinkles, and a multitude of infirmities, is the same Strong, Handsome, Healthy Man, that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old.  Dub. 
Tho' I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome, for her antiquity, yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church, many wrinkles in her face, which were not from the beginning▪ but not withstanding those infirmities, 'tis the same true Church as 'twas at the first plantation, as the old decrepit man is the same man that ever he was for substance.  Firm. 
I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sense the same it first was, in respect of divers Articles it holds: but in respect of those gross errors, it now maintains, 'tis no more like what it was, than the old decrepit diseased man is like what he was in his younger days.  Dub. 
Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome, which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases, as I in part do apprehend. I pray you proceed to my other motive.  Firm. 
The Church of Rome, is not so universal as her disciples boast of, neither in respect of place or time.  
1. 'Tis the observation of a learned man, that if the world were divided into 30 parts, 19 of them are heathens, 6 Mahometans, and 5 Christians, of which the Papists are not the one half, as Mr. Breirwood in his Inquires does demonstrate.  
2. As to the universality of time, the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenants, from the beginning of Christianity, through the several ages or Centuryes: that it has continued a Church, from the first preaching of the Gospel I deny not; but that 'tis the same for purity of Doctrine, as once it was, is most false: for the ancient Church of Rome, never taught worshipping of images, praying to Saints, that monstrous transubstantiation, half Communion, Prayer in an unknown tongue, and many more Groundless fopperies, against Scripture, the general consent of fathers, common sense and reason.  Dub. 
All this, I am inclined to believe: but how could these errors creep into a Church, which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers? what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches, it received from the Church that was in the next age before it, that from the Church next before it, and so quite down to the Apostles times, as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Uncle and the Nephew, hath most learnedly demonstrated.  Firm. 
Truly very learnedly, even as Zeno proved there was no local motion: you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration: were not the Scribes and pharisees great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers? And yet we know how grossly they had corrupted the law of Moses, as is evident by our Saviour's confutation of them. Mat. 5. and in several other places.  
Dr. Crakan●thorp and other Learned protestants do evidently show, the beginning, the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome, the manner of their spring and Growth; but Suppose we cannot punctually t●ll, the beginning and progress of such and such an error, shall we therefore believe it to be no error you walk sometimes in the fields, 
C●●visse videas crescere non vides.  'tis evident to your eyes that the Grass a●d grain do grow, though you do not see them move at all; sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption, you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition, will you not believe him to be so, because you cannot tell the time when, or the manner how, his disease came upon him?  Dub 
I cannot be so unreasonable; and by what you have said, my third reason falls to the Ground, for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive, but is extremely opposite to it, in the points before named, besides many others; I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity; for they seem to be firmly united, under one infallible head the Pope.  Firm. 
Truly Sir they do but seem so; for they are miserably divided in the great fundamental of their faith, 
see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith.  their infallibility, and are not they very unjust to us to exact our belief, of that, which they themselves know not where to find? for some of them tell us 'tis fixed to the Pope's chair; some say 'tis to be found in a General Council, ot●●rs believe it to be in neither, but in both united together, others would persuade us that 'tis in the whole body of the Church; so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity; you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations; who in waggery, are sent from shop to shop for a pennyworth of Ell-broad Packthread; or a pound of stockfish Tallow: or a Lefthanded Shuttle; after these poor novices have been sent from one end of the City to the other, they return home, without such ridiculous Commodities, and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision.  
There's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous works wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholics among themselves, insomuch that this great Cardinals, works were not to be bought in Rome (as Sir Edw: Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum) because he had so imprudently discovered, the nakedness of his mother in point of unity.  
To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists, Ochamists &c: 'tis pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans, Franciscans Jesuits, Molinists, jansenists, Regulars, and seculars agree together. Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the jansenians, and so that which was none before, very luckily became an article of Faith (such is the Pope's omnipotent Power, that he can create Articles of Faith, out of that which was a pure nonentity, a very nothing in the primitive times) yet I hear that the jansenists are so saucy as to continue very jansenists still, notwithstanding his holinesses infallible determination.  Dub. 
I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome, as they brag of; I desire to hear what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine.  Firm: 
the Sanctity of their Doctrine, refers to that of Faith and Manners, for that of Faith, which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed, or any other Doctrinal point contained in holy Scripture, expressly, or by good consequence deduced from thence by the general consent of Fathers we allow of, but as for popish additions of new atticles, by Pope Pius the 4. and the council of Tr●nt, that are against Scripture; and can never be justified by the general consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church; we reject as false, and consequently not Holy; this I suppose you will demonstrate when you please to give me the reasons, which made you forsake the present Church of Rome  
As to their Sanctity of manners, their Doctrine is so far from it, that the better sort of heathens would blush to own; for brevity sake I shal● refer you to the first and second part of the mystery of Jesuitism, the Jesuits morals set out b● a Sorbon Doctor, Mr. Fowls his History of the treasons and rebellions of these holy men; the two former of these books assure us that by the Doctrine of probability, and a good intention, the foulest Sins are at most but venial.  Dub. 
The Jesuits are but one party in the Church of Rome, many o● their tenants and practices disclaimed, by other of the papists, and therefore the whole Church is not chargeable with their errors.  Firm. 
Until that Church doth expressly Condemn th●m▪ and Execute. Ecclesiastical Censures upon such of her members, as do broach those damnable Doctrines, doth make them rec●nt, or excommunicate them, she is chargeable with them.  Dub. 
I am of your opinion and do firmly believe the present Church of Rome to be neither Holy n●● C●tholi●k, but an unsound member of that Church; but what say you to the first ●ounde●s and ●athers of their Church, were not t●ey v●ry 〈◊〉 men?  Firm. 
● B●llarmine could prove what he takes for granted, that t●e Fathers and Founders o●●heir Church, as it now stands, were the ho●y Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, I should agree with him in that note, but the truth is they have no more right to call them their Fathers and Founders, than the Scribes and pharisees had to ca●l Abraham their Father; from whose faith they had so miserably declined; the Fathers of the present Church of Rome, as 'tis now, were the corrupt Counsels, which were so many packed Juryes, and the pope's; of whose Sanctity you may consult Platina, who was a Papist.  
By what I have said (I hope) you are satisfied, that you had no justifyable reasons to adhere to the Church of Rome, as 'tis now, so much declined from the Primitive; let me know how and why you did forsake it.  Dub. 
I am fully satisfied that the reasons, which drew me over to that Church were false and fallacious, and am now as much confirmed, that the reasons which made me leave her Communion are solid and demonstrative.  
1. Which were her monstrous unnecessary impossible Doctrine of transubstantiation.  Firm. 
How do you prove that to be unnecessary?  Dub. 
The change of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ is unnecessary, because certain it is (and they of the Church of Rome acknowledge it) that there never was any such change in the Sacraments of ●he old Testament, neither is there any in the other six of the New, (as the Papists are pleased to multiply them; now if all other Sacraments without any such miraculous change, do attain their ends, for which they were instituted, why should it be required in the holy Eucharist? why not rather in that of baptism? why should not the baptismal water be changed into Christ's very blood? this being the Sacrament of Regeneration, that that of Nutrition; surely as great a power and virtue is required, to regenerate and make a Christian, as to nourish and strengthen him.  
Again the faithful both before and under the law did eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, in a Spiritual manner, before he had either body or blood. They did eat the same Spiritual Meat and drank the same Spiritual Drink; 1. Cor. 10.3. what need is there then of a Transubstantiation? If we seriously peruse the sixth Chapt: of St. john's Gospel, we may learn that the body of Christ is eaten and his blood drank in a Spiritual manner, that when the Disciples murmured, at what our Saviour had delivered in the former verses, to satisfy them, he replies that the words which he spoke, were spirit and life: Ver. 63. and not to be understood according to their gross conception.  
I know some the Church of Rome affirm, that in ●hat Chapter, our blessed Saviour speaks not of a Sacramental eating of the body of Christ; but certainly is his body may be eaten, and his blood drank, without any such monstrous change by every true beleiver not Receiving, why may not he eat the body and drink the blood of Christ, without any substantial change of the Bread and Wine when he receives? besides ● most (if not all) of the ancient fathers, who held a necessity of giving the Eucharist to infants, urge the 53. verse of this Chapter, for their opinion and practice, except ye Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his Blood, ye have no life in you, Surely therefore they conceived, that our Saviour meant by these words a Sacramental eating, how then dare any of the Clergy of the Church of Rome, expound it otherwise, seeing they take an oath never to expound Scripture, but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers: see the forma juramenti professionis fidei. Conc. Triden. Sess. 24. Cap. 4. de Reformatione.  Firm. 
I very much approve your reason against the necessity of transubstantiation: Let me here from you why you term it monstrous, and impossible?  Dub. 
'Tis therefore monstrous and impossible, because it implies Contradictions, and gross absurdities 1. that a body is not a body; an accident is not an accident, for if there should be such a change, the s●me numerical body of our Saviour, must be in Heaven and Earth, nay in ten thousand places at the same time, ●it must be extended and not extended, it must have dimensions and no dimensions, finite and not finite, which cannot be, no not by God's omnipotent, and absolute power; how do the schoolmen's Noddles abound with niceties, quiddities, perseities, Chimeras, to solve such incompossibilities?  
2. This strange Metamorphosis doth make accidents to be no accidents, it takes away the very being of them; for accid●ntis esse, ●st in●sse, the being of an accident is in-being, here must be Colour, sapor, odor, quantity without a Subject, which is all one as if we should say a man might be a man without a reasonable Soul, In a word I would willingly learn, what does become of Christ's Body, and Blood after 'tis received into the mouth, (or if any profane mouse should swallow part of it, or lick up a drop of the blood) and thence into the stomach, whether it be retransubstantiated into bread and wine, or else be converted by the concoctive, and nutritive faculty, into the body of the Communicant, as other nourishment is, and then 'twill necessarily follow, that Christ's Body is essentially united unto, and made one with the Body of every Communicant, which borders very ne'er upon Blasphemy, for by this means james Nailer will ere long (quod animus m●minisse horret) be Jesus Christ.  
3. This Transubstantiation (if any such thing were possible) is wrought by a miracle, but was ever any miracle done by Christ and his Apostles, which was not discernible by the senses? when ●e cured the blind, the dumb, the lame, when he turned water into wine, was not this manifest to the Sight, the Smell, the Taste? shall we think that the God of truth Gave to m●n five Scences, to deceive 4 of them by one pretended miracle? or that 'tis his method to inform the mind by Impostures? if one or two or three Senses may be deceived, why not all? then what will become of Rome's oral Tradition? for may not the ear be deceived as well as the eye? the nose, the taste, the touch? here are 4 Senses to one against that tradition, and then how are the papists certain of what they have received from the present Church, or how is she certain of what she received from the Church immediately before her? is not the doctrine of Transubstantiation, which teaches men not to believe their eyes, and other of their Senses, a ready way to Atheism, and infidelity? for if four of the five Senses may be deceived then farewell all tradition, and if these inferior faculties, may be thus baffled, what satisfaction could it have been to St. Thomas that Christ was truly risen from the dead by putting his finger into the print of the nails, or his hand into his side?  
But beside what sense and reason, witness against this monstrous opinion, the Scripture is clearly opposite unto it, for Christ at the institution of this Sacrament, did not take his own Body into his hand●, but Bread, he broke not his own Body, but Bread, he did not eat his own Body, he did not drink his own Blood, but he drank of the fruit of the Vine, Mat. 26.29. for so he called it after Consecration and Distribution; I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the Vine etc. in like manner St. Paul. 'Tis still this bread and this cup. 1. Cor. 11.26.  
When our Saviour says (Hoc est corpus meum) what doth (hoc) stand for? either it must signify this thing in my hand, (i. e.) the bread, or else his own body▪ which body he holding in his hand, utters these words (hoc est corpus meum) that is corpus meum est corpus meum, a mere Identical trifleing proposition, which according to all Logic is most absurd, and destroys the very nature of a Sacrament, which consists of two essential parts the sign and the thing signified; besides they of Rome con●ess that the Body of Christ, is not present under the species of Bread and Wine, when the Priest begins to pronounce (hoc) nor till he hath uttered the last syllable ('em) hoc est corpus meum, such poor shifts these men are forced to use.  
As for antiquity, so much boasted of by those of Rome, I know that some of the fathers to draw men's minds from the earthly elements to heavenly mysteries, used now and then high Rhetorical expressions, never dreaming of any substantial change of the elements into the Body and Blood of Christ, as is evident from Iraeneus, Panis Communis post consecrationem, non est amplius panis communis, sed efficitur Eucharistia, quae constat ex duabus naturis terrenâ & cael●sti, haec oblatio ●st figura corporis & sanguinis Christi. Ambrose 1. ad Cor. Cap. 11. & lib. 4. de Sacram.  
Non dubitavit dominus dicere, hoc est corpus meum cum dedit fignum sui corporis. Aug: Epist: 23. ad Bonifa & 12. Cap. contra Adiman.  
Hoc est corpus meum i. e. typus corporis mei, Ter●ull.  
Panem & vinum Appellatione corporis & sanguinis honoravit, non naturam quidem mutans, sed naturae gratiam adjiciens. Theod. dial▪ 1. & 2.  
In a word the ancient fathers, who opposed the Eutychian haeresy, did make use of the sacramental union of Bread and Wine, to the body and blood of Christ, showing that the humane nature of Christ is not more changed into the divine then the Sacramental Bread and Wine is into the very Body and Blood of Christ, therefore they believed no such thing, as that monstrous Popish transubstantiation.  
So that we see the falsity and absurdity of it by Scripture, antiquity, common sense and reason; besides the great danger of Idolatry, in worshipping a piece of bread, if there be no transubstantiation, as some of the papists themselves confess, and they also acknowledge, that if the Priest, that consecrates were not rightly ordained, or that he did not actually intend to consecrate, or that he omitted any one Ceremony (which they call necessary) at the time of consecration, that the Bread and Wine are not duly Consecrated, and consequently no transubstantiation, and therefore great probability, that the Papists in worshipping the host, do frequently commit the very great Sin of Idolatry, which was to me one great reason of forsaking their Communion.  Firm. 
Truly 'twas a substantial reason, and such an one that has wrought upon others beside yourself, however I desire to hear from you; what further reasons, you had to leave the Church of Rome.  Dub. 
The next which I shall acquaint you with is the half Communion so manifestly against scripture and antiquity.  
Our Blessed Saviour at the instituition of the Sacrament commands, drink ye all of this, whereas at the giving of the bread, he said only, take, Eat, foreseeing and obviating this grand error of the Church of Rome; 'tis true the persons then communicating, were only his disciples, which had received their Commission to preach the Gospel, before that time, but not in that ample and full manner, as they received it after his Resurrection, as is plain from john 20, 22, 23. and M●t. 28, 29. but be it granted that they were all in full orders, and upon that account the Cup was given them, otherwise they should not have received it, by the same reason the bread might be denied to the people, because none but Priests did then Communicate; but we know that a Priest when he doth not consecrate, is in the place of a Layman, and consequently the disciples not consecrating at the Supper were no better, and therefore according to the doctrine, and practise of the Church of Rome, should not have received the Cup.  
But what will they think of the whole Church of Corinth, to whom St. Paul sent a first and second Epistle, they cannot imagine they were all Priests, observe then how ●e exhorts all of them, to examine themselves in order to the receiving of the holy Eucharist under both kinds. 1. Cor 11. this is so evident that our adversary's have nothing to Reply.  
As for Antiquity the practice of the Church of Rome is clearly against it, as jam able to demonstrate, from express testimonies, of the fathers, but our learned writers have ●aved me that trouble, those that please may peruse Chami●re, Ch●mnitius, jewel, Cracanthorp; The confession of the Council of Co●stance stands as a lasting Monument against the Popish innovation in this particular; the words are these, we decree in like manner, that though in the Primitive Church▪ the holy Eucharist, was received under both kinds, by the faithful, yet this Custom to avoid some dangers and scandals is reasonably introduced that it should be received by the Priests only in both kinds, by the people in one; is not this with the Socinians to make the Sacraments mere indifferent Ceremonies, alter able at the Church's pleasure?  
But the Council of Trent flies higher; 
Cental. 〈◊〉 S●ss. 12. C●n. 1.  if any man shall say that all faithful Christians▪ by Gods Command, or for necessity of Salvation, aught to Receive the Sacrament in both kinds▪ let him be acursed, I wonder whether Pope Gelasius, sat in, or was out of his infallible Chair, when he roundly said, we find that some do abstain from the Chalice of the Sacred Blood; let them receive the entire Sacrament or be kept from the whole, because the division of one and the same mystery cannot be without grand Sacrilege. Either the Pope was not infallible, or the present Church of Rome is most Sacrilegious.  Firm. 
You rightly Judge, and were their fancy of Transubstantiation true (as nothing is more false and ridiculous) yet were it not sufficient to debar the Laity of the Cup, because they receive the Blood of Christ with his Body, for this is not to drink but to eat it, and besides the Sacrament is not a sign of his Blood in the veins, but as 'twas shed and poured out; might not the Priests as well receive his Blood, with his Body, and than 'twere as superfluous for them to dringe of the Cup, as for the people; but I pray proceed in your reasons against Popery.  Dub. 
My third reason is taken from the invocation of Saints departed; which is against Scripture, and antiquity: 'tis an attribute belonging to God alone, that ●he is a God hearing Prayers. 'Tis a chief part of his worship, thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God, and him o●ely shalt thou Serve, it robs Christ of one part of his Priestly office who now sits at God's right hand, interceding for us, there is but one Mediator betwixt God and man, the man Christ I●sus, certainly is holy men, both before and under the law, prayed to God alone through faith in the promised seed or Messias, without invocateing any departed Saint, because there was none then (as they of the Church of Rome confess,) admitted to the beatifical vision, and consequently could not know the need or prayers of men upon earth, in the Glass of the Trinity, there is less reason now to make our addresses, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Christ himself sitting, at God's right hand, and Interceding for us.  
Besides the worship of Angels is forbidden by St. Paul. Col. 2. and the Angel in the Revelation twice sorbade St. john to worship him, Cap. 19 and 22 yea the worshippers of Angels were in the primitive times, branded with the title of heretics, under the name of (Angelici) and therefore much less ought we to worship the Saints departed, for certainly they being the more excellent Creatures, are much more capable of such worship then the souls of men, that are now in Abraham's bosom, in Paradise, not yet in that perfect bliss and glory, which they shall enjoy when their souls and bodies shall be reunited, but according to many of the fathers in a certain and joyful expectance of it, after the last and final judgement, where the place of their present abode is I shall tell you when ●he fathers are agreed about it.  
For this Saint worship certain it is there is no express Scripture, and 'tis as certain there is no general consent of antiquity, let any man peruse Mr. Meads excellent treatise of the Apostasy of the latter times, wherein 'tis apparent how the Cannonizing of Saints in the Church of Rome, agrees with the heathens Apotheosis, their praying to them with the worshipping of Heroes, their Dij Medioxumi, their having several Saints for Patrons of Particular Countries, Trades and Callings, Physicians for divers diseases, like the heathens Dij Tutelares, as may be seen in Chemnitius his examen and in other learned men.  Firm. 
You need not spend more words about this gross superstition, which is nothing else, but a mixture of Christianity, and Paganism, and of all the errors of the Church of Rome, most dangerous, for the Lord our God is a jealous God, and will not suffer the honour and worship, that is due to him alone, to be given to any other.  Dub. 
I shall submit to your advice, and proceed to a fourth reason against Popery, which is their adoration of images so much condemned in holy Scripture, what more expressly forbidden then image worship by the second Commandment? which they of Rome have Cunningly left out in their mass books, offices, Primmers, and Catechism's, and without all show of Reason, asserted it to be a positive Command, belonging only to the Jews, how demonstratively is the fourth of deuteronomy against it from the 12 verse to the 18? many other texts might be urged to the same purpose, all which the Schoolmen endeavour to baffle, by their Pitiful distinctions; betwixt an Image and an Idol, a picture upon a cloth and one engraven in wood, or stone, betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which every Esurient Groeculus; every mean Sciolist, will smile at, betwixt Mediatè, Relutiuè, and Terminative, which a●e distinctions (at least some of them) without a difference, mere chimerical fancies: if a man shall seriously peruse the 13▪ and 14. Chapters of the Book of Wisdom (which at Rome is Canonical Scripture) and consider what answers the Heathens returned to those that objected against them their Idol worship, 
Non imagini, s●d numini sacrificamus. A  that they worship not the Image, but the (Numen) or divine power it represented, he will easily discern that the wiser sort of Heathens made as wise Apologies, for their Image worship; as the wisest Papists do for theirs.  
As for the antiquity of this gross superstition both Fathers & Counsels are against it, as is evident from that excellent Homily of our Church concerning the peril of Idolatry, if it be replied 'twere the images of the heathens they opposed, true 'tis, for in the first ages of the Church there were no others, the Christians of those times, abominateing all image worship, but the reasons they give against the heathen Imagery wound the Church of Rome under the fifth rib; no Christian Church did then use images in their oratoryes; in after ages they were admitted only for an historical use, as may be seen in Saint Gregory's writings, who lived above 600 years after Christ, true 'tis by the Second Nicene Council their worship was decreed; and so this iniquity was established by a law, such a one as that packed convention could legitimate, and hence forward not only the pictures of Saints, but of God himself and of the Blessed Trinity were set up in Churches, which was an high dishonour to the Glorious Majesty of the Almighty, to be portrayed like an old Man, and gave an occasion to ignorant people to conceive him to be so indeed, hence I have heard some of them say, when they swore (by God) that they swore by a good Man, by which 'tis evident, how the gross superstition of the Church of Rome, hath crooked silly Souls, and that all such images, are teachers of Lies, very vanities, as the Scripture shows and reason demonstrates.  
For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father, and the holy Trinity, doth not the image of any Saint, whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship, lie to their imaginations? representing that which is not; for nothing but the Souls, and Spirits of those Saints do now remain, so that whilst they picture and worship them in bodily shapes, which pictures represent, what is not, they worship they know not what, praying only to the Souls of Saints, yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth: how doth it concern all Serious Christians, to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or man's making? of Angel, Saint, or Image, which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God? And surely if we might worship the picture of a man, which is man's Creature, 'twere much more rational to worship a true man, yea the Son, Moon and Stars, and all th● host of heaven, they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God.  Firm. 
You rightly conclude, were not a judicial blindness, upon the eyes of our adversaries, they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspicion.  Dub. 
I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsaking the Church of Rome, which was briefly their prayers in an unknown tongue, a practice, manifestly contrary to plain Scripture, and the ancient Doctors of the Church, a most unreasonable service, opposite to that which we are to perform to Almighty God; 'Tis so baffled by St. Paul, that all the learned ●en of the Roman party have nothing of sense or reason to answer, and as for antiquity 'twas not so much as thought upon, in the first ages in the Church, the Liturgies than every where were in the known and vulgar tongue, otherwise how should the unlearned say (Amen.)  
The practice of the Church of Rome is in this▪ as in divers other of their fopperyes, a very mystery of iniquity, I could heartily wish; that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists; their Missales, Pontifical's, Breviaryes, Lady Psaltres etc. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues, that such poor deluded souls might see to what absurd prayers they say (Amen) to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they submit.  
I might here add the vain Reptitions, of so many Ave-Maria's, & Pater-noster's, upon their beads, their saying of them at certain hours as a Pensum, or task, or a Penance to make a Compensation for their sins, rather than as a willing serious duty from the heart and soul; which is not Religious praying, but a Childish saying of prayers, a vain heathenish babbling, after the manner of an old wife's charm; resting in the work done; as if the bare saying of prayers, without any intention of the mind, were the only end of praying, or the effectual ●erven● prayer of a Righteous man. jam. 5.16.  
I might also add their cheating Purgatory, their purchasing of pardons, and indulgences, for sins past, and for many hundred years to come, by sums of money set down in the Tax book of their Chancery, their Pilgrimages, and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their souls, their allowing of Brothel houses to Grati●ye the unmarried Clergy, and others in their unclean Lusts, for which the Pope receives a lusty Pension.  
But to deal truly with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruel●y, towards those that they please to call Heretics, their savage inquisition, their Parisian, Irish, and other massacres, 
Mr Fowes History.  their marian Butcherings, their intended matchless powder treason, their poisoning and stabbing of kings, their justifying of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness, by their right intention, and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mystery of Jesuitism, in the Jesuits morals; can such Villainy▪ such Cruelty and Christianity stand together? did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnal weapons? how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples, when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivil Schismatical Samaritans? 
2 Cor. 10.4.  y●e know not what spirit ye are of, for the son of man is not come to destroy men's lives▪ but to save them; Luk. 9.55. O that Christ's pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meek and holy Jesus.  
These Sir, were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome, for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholic Church, or any sound part of it, but a very Schismatical Haeretical one, that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sain●s.  Firm. 
You have given very sufficient reasons▪ for your departure from that unsound Church, which may satisfy any serious▪ considering Christian, and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them; I am now fully persuaded that you are neither Atheist, Infidel, or Papist; pray you let me know what is your present persuasion, and what Church you most approve.  Dub. 
Truly Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants, that I am in no small doubt, with which of them to hold Commuion; but my inclination leads me chiefly, to return to my old Mother the Church of England, from which most unhappily (as I am now convinced) I heretofore separated; however for the remov●l of some scruples, which yet remain with me, ● earnestly desire you to give yourself the trouble of a short discourse, concerning the several sects now in England.  Firm. 
I shall most ●readily gratify you In this your very reasonable request, nothing doubting but that I shall, by God's Gracious assistance) remove all your scruples, and fix you a true son of that Church, which is the most Catholic Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world, which those that do acknowledge the holy Scripture to be the infallible word of God, the perfect Rule of all the substantials of Christianity both for faith and manners, and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity, (the want of which is one great cause of heresy and schism), as to be able to trace Christian Religion, through the several ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these present times, I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of.  Dub. 
You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men, that one great cause of errors in Religion, is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church, Counsels, and Ecclesiastical histories, this is not every man's work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them. and that t●e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian, is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century, then descending to the second, thence to the third, and so on to the succeeding ages of the Church, whereby he will perceive how the true Religion has been handed down from one age to another, and how and when, this or that error sprang up; as he ●hat sails down some great and clear pure river, may easily perceive, where little Rivuletts, and puddles, have run into it, and have muddyed, and troubled the Cleare● Stream.  Firm. 
I much approve of what you say concerning the rise and cause of errors in Religion, the chief reason of them is ignorance in the records of Antiquity, and holy Scriptures, and want of orderly proceeding in our studies from age to age; whereby we may easily perceive, how and when the puddles & corrupt rivulets of error have troubled the purer stream of Christianity, and you may without much labour perceive that if you had been well instructed, in the being and Attributes of Almighty God, in a firm belief of his most sacred word, you had never fallen into those most dangerous errors of Popery, Quakerism or o● any such pernicous sect.  Dub. 
I do confess my error, and especially that I was so great a stranger, not only to the writings of the fathers, but to the holy Scripture itself, which I did too much neglect and scorn, but seeing by God's blessing, upon your endeavours, I am fully satisfied of the vanity, absurdity, and falsehood of Atheism; infidelity, and Popery; if you please to give yourself th●t trouble, we will proceed in our discourse concerning Quakerism, Anabaptism, Independency, and Presbytery, I shall not trouble you with any other sect, because they are all included in some one of these, or at least are so vain and ridiculous, that we should do them to much honour, if we should gratify them with a sober and serious confutation.  Firm. 
I shall most willingly embrace your proposal▪ and if it please you we will proceed to Quakerism, the error which you embraced immediately before, you turned Papist, and in truth 'tis a fair introduction to Popery, and by many gross errors which the Quakers embrace, 'tis as evident as the light at noon day, who were the fathers of those spurious brats.  Dub. 
This is a very truth; the Quakers holding many things which are maintained by Papists, we may easily know whose Children these poor deluded Souls are, and the Correspondence betwixt them, made my passage to Rome more ready and easy.   

DIALOGUE IV Against QVAKERISM.  Firm. 
You have informed me in our last discourse that being sometime a quaker you had a ready way open to become a Papist. I pray tell me why and how you turned a quaker.  Dub. 
You put me hard to it. for I can give yo● no ver● good reasons for that change, and those that moved me are so ridiculous, that I am almost ashamed to name them, yet such as they are I shall give you the trouble of hearing them, I am almost persuaded, that the man that perverted me, used some enchantments and Diabolical arts. so that I was rather bewitched. then rationally persuaded, to be of that party, (as I have heard some have been) but because I am not certain of this, I shall wave it, and show you my reasons.  
1. I observed that the cause why there were so many sects and schisms in the world, was for want of a certain infallible rule to guide us in our judgements and practices. as I was made believe, and I was persuaded that the Quakers had such a rule, to wit, the light within them.  
2. I observed these men to be very demure in their carriage, very austere in their lives, sober and temperate, of afflicted dejected countenances▪ very punctual and just in their dealings, not abating one farthing of the price of any commodity they first demanded; gre●t contemners of the world, no respecters of any man's person how great soever; so meek, humble and lowly in their apparel and behaviour that they cannot endure the wearing of gold-rings, silver or silks in themselves or any others, and if any man should strike them on the one cheek, these poor innocent souls were so far from revenge that they would turn the other, so that I conceived them to be so many Nathaniels so many true Israelites in whom there was no guile.  Firm. 
How could you be deceived by such painted sepulchres? what could you see more in them then what was conspicuous in the Scribes and Pharisees of old? take i● for an infallible rule, that whosoever hold or practise any thing which is contrary to the law of nature and good manners, express Scripture, the usages of all sober and civil people in the world, are so far from being true Christians that they are not worthy the name of men.  Dub. 
I am fully of your persuasion that these men hold and practise many things which are contrary to the law of nature, good manners and holy Scripture, but for my farther satisfaction, let us discourse some of their tenants and practices.  Firm. 
For their tenants you may at your leisure peruse the Synopsis of Quakerism wrote by Mr. Danson. The heads whereof are briefly these taken out of their own writings, which are a mixture of Popery and Socinianism; as.  
1. They affirm that there are not three persons in the Trinity.  
2. That Christ did not make satisfaction for the sins of men.  
3. That justification is not by imputed righteousness, but that our own inhaerent righteousness, and good works is the cause of our justification.  
4. That a state of perfection and freedom from sin is attainable in this life.  
5. That there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to salvation.  
6. That the Scripture is not the word of God, or a standing rule of faith and manners.  
7. That there is no resurrection of the dead.  
8. That there is no need or use of ordinances, as Baptism and the Lords Supper,  
9 That 'tis unlawful to take an oath before a Magistrate upon any account whatsoever.  Dub. 
I know these and many more to be the positions of quakers and that they are directly contrary to sacred Schripture;  Firm. 
These things are so clearly confuted by the express word of God and tradition of the Catholic Church, that 'tis superfluous to trouble you with any further discourse about them.  
As for their practices they are extremely opposite to all good manners, and the Civilities of a●l Nations that are not grossly barbarous, as well as ●o the holy Scripture; and whereas you have observed their carriages to be very demure, austere, and that they are of a sad countenance; 'tis no more than what our blessed Saviour reproved in the Scribes and Pharisees long since, indeed to be sad and mourn in times of public Humiliation, Calamities and great Judgements is Christian; but to be constanly so, savours too much of the Pharisee, and is contrary to holy Scripture which instructs us, there is a time to Laugh as well as to Weep, there is nothing which more delights and cheers the heart than the exercise of a good Conscience towards God and Man, and we know a merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance, whereas a sad sour face a hanging down look too much resemble Cain's Mark, and is a very probable sign of a disquieted, discontented, guilty, troubled, if not a malicious mind.  Dub. 
I am much of your judgement, but I pray you tell me what do you ●hink of their denying all civil respect either in word or gesture to their equals and superiors?  Firm. 
This practice of theirs is against the v●ry law and light of nature as well as plain Scripture, a mere levelling devise of their seducers (the Popish Priests and Jesuits) to make a confusion among us, to destroy all government, to take away all honour and respect which is due to our superiors, for what honour and reverence has that man in his heart towards them who will express none in his words or gestures according to the laudable custom of the country where he dwells?  Dub. 
Truly I have often admired at the uncivil behaviour of quakers in saying (thou and thee) to their betters in not bowing the knee or putting of the hat to their superiors.  Firm. 
You might well wonder at such barbarous uncivil carriage, but pray you tell me what think you of their pitching a certain price upon their commodities of which they will not abate one farthing, was not that a certain sign● of their honest and upright dealing?  Dub. 
I confe●s I once thought so, but afterwards I considered that a man may cheat and co●en in few words as well as in many, and I believe that these men most of them are a● great cheats as any in the world.  Firm. 
and I pray you what think you of their other rare quali●ies before mentioned?  Dub. 
I did once believe them to be great contemners of the world, meek, humble, lowly, etc. but 'tis evident they are quite contrary to what they seem to be.  
1. For I know that most of them are extremely covetous and narrow breasted, without all bowels of pity or mercy towards those that want, unless they be of that fanatic party; which is mere faction, no Christian Charity at all; and whereas many of them have been known to have been persons of mean fortunes at first they are now rich and wealthy, and none of them (though very poor before they turned quakers) now in a necessitous condition, being maintained as 'tis very probable by their new Masters the jesuits, a very rich and opulent society, who make more Proselytes by the length of their purse strings then by the strength of argument, or personated Mimical gestures.  
2. As for their humility and lowliness, 'tis evident they show no such virtues in their carriage towards their betters; their contempt of gold-rings, silver-lace and rich attire, is no infallible proof of their humility; Diogenes may be as proud in his tub as Alexander in his palace, he may trample upon Plato's pride with greater pride; as haughty a spirit may be hid under a plain country russet, as under the richest ●ables.  Firm. 
No question; but what do you think of their meekness and mildness, that they will rather suffer an hundred injuries then revenge one, that they will not take arms to offend the enemy or defend themselves or their country, are not these rare signs of Christian meekness?  Dub. 
I see you are now in jest; you know ttha time was when they did take up arms in an hostile manner against the King and his Loyal subjects, and if they had a fair opportunity they would do the like again, and appear as cruel and bloody as ever did Anabaptist fifth Monarchy-man or jesuit.  Firm. 
I confess that many of them were in arms under Cromwell against the royal party; the light within them did warrant them to rebel against their lawful Sovereign, but now the light within them shows that 'tis not lawful to resist Magistrates by carnal weapons.  Dub. 
You are pleased to make yourself mercy with these men's bare-faced hypocrisy, what a jugles this light within them? more unconstant than that of the moon, a mere fancy, a Diabolical suggestion; the Devil suits his tentations according as opportunities present themselves, when there is good probability of prevailing by rebellion and treason, than the light (or rather darkness within them) suggests unto them, 'tis lawful to take up arms, to plunder and murder their fellow subjects, yea the King himself, but when there is no probability to prosper by such villainous enterprises, than that light within them persuades them to be as quiet as Lambs, as innocent as so many pretty Pigeons.  Firm. 
Of a truth, this light by which they are guided, is the very blackness of darkness, nothing but a groundless fancy, which any man in the world may as well pretend for his rule as these fanatics; when several Sects are contending, shall the light within them be the Umpire? When the Anabaptists fifth Monarchy men, and divers other Sects contend for their several opinions, whether are they to go but to the Law and to the Testimony? If they speak not according to this word, 'tis because there is no light in them. Esai. 8.20.  Dub. 
I have much wondered that any men should be so much deluded by their vain imaginations, as to measure their opinions and practices by so uncertain, so unconstant a guide as the light within them, which is so frequently beclouded by pride, ignorance, interest, passion, humour, and Singularity.  Firm. 
You need not wonder, if you shall seriously consider that they who flatte● themselves, that they are in a state of perfection, that they cannot sin, are above ordinances, that cast off fear, and restrain prayer, Job. 15.4. should fall into the snare of the Devil, and lie under a judicial blindness. And that they do so, seems very probable by what one Tolderfee of Lemster, in the Country of Hereford relates of himself, in his recantation of Quaquerism●. I have heard also of divers of these seduced wretches, that at their meetings, before they utterred their Enthusiasms, have swollen so much they have been re●dy to burst, And 'tis too evident that the brethren of the Rosy C●oss, have a great influence upon them: and it is upon Record at Bristol, That before there was any Quaker in that City, Two Franciscans did foretell to one Mr. Cowlishaw an Ironmonger there, (whose oath is to be seen upon the Register) That within eighteen day's Quaquerism should be set up in Bristol, which came to pass accodingly: And besides all this a Popish Priest bragged in my hearing th●t he had been a speaker at their meetings; by all which 'tis evident whose Disciples these silly fools are. For your further confirmation you may peruse Mr. Prin's Quakers unmasked. Dr Stillingfleets against the Idolatry of Rome, and Friar Barbanson, who above Two hundred years since laid the ground work of this Sect in a Book whose Title is occul●ae Divini amoris semitae.  Dub. 
I am fully satisfied concerning the folly and madness of this Phanaticism, and from whence it sprang; please you we will discourse of Anabaptism; pray you what do you think of that?   

DIALOGUE V. against Anabaptism.  Firm. 
ANabaptism is a most carnal and bloody Sect, as appears by the History of john of Leiden, Knipperdoling, wrote by Sleiden and Bullenger.  Dub. 
But what do you think of their opnion concerning Infant Baptism? I shall not trouble you with other of their Tenants, which are common to them with other Schismatics.  Firm. 
That Opinion of theirs is contrary to Scripture, and the practice of the Catholic Church.  Dub. 
I have often he●rd them say, That if there were any express Text in Scripture for the Baptising of Infants, they would allow of that practice  Firm. 
Though there be no express place in Scripture for it, as there was for Circumcising of Children under the law yet there are many Texts which do infer it by rational consequence. What express Text is there for the Communicating of Women? which nevertheless the Anabaptists practice; 
Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2. Rom. 13.1. Pet. 2. jer. 4.2. Deut. 6.13. Heb. 6.16. 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6.  have they not express Texts for obeying the Civil Magistrate? for taking an Oath before him; thou shalt swear, the Lord liveth in justice, in judgement, and truth. Thou shalt fear the Lord and swear by his name. I call God for a record upon my Soul; an Oath for Confirmation is (not was) an end of all strife. And we have the Angel in the Revelation (which was never under the Levitical law) swearing.  
Yo● see here are express Texts for obedience to Magistrates, and for taking an Oath before them; yet the Anabaptists will not swear at all, which is a moral duty enjoined in the third Commandment; and how obedient they are to the Supreme powers let Germany and England witness in our ●ate Civil Wars, so that you may see that if there were an express Text for Infant Baptism, they would not yield unto it but follow their own wild imaginations.  Dub. 
Doubtless 'tis grand hypocrisy to call for express Texts for Infants-Baptism, and yet to act directly against such Texts in other points of Necessary duty.  Firm. 
True it is we have no express Texts for Infants-Baptism, yet we have many that do necessarily infer it, as that of our Saviour suffer little Children ●o come unto me which he took in his Arms and Blessed, certainly those that were capable of his blessing, were capable of the seal of it. The children of believers are said to be holy: The promise is to you and to your children: 
1 Cor. 1.14. Act. 2. Math. 28.  Go teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All which places evidently show that the children of believing Christians have as much right to baptism, as the children of the Jews had to Circumcision: unless we should say that the Lord was more gracious to the Jews than he is to us Christians, and that the hand of his mercy is shortened to us, which was so much stretched out to them.  
If their Children were in Covenant with God, (as it is evident they were) Deut. 29.11. then are the Children of Christians under the same privilege, unless any man can give a good reason to the contrary, which must be drawn either from the Mercy, or Judgement of God: There is no show of reason to say 'twas from his Judgement, much less from his Mercy, for who dare say 'tis a mercy not to be in Covenant with God?  
To these Texts of Scripture, we may add the practice of the Catholic Church for Fifteen hundred years, as appears by the writers in their several Centuries, which is the best Commentary upon the Scripture. The Fathers who lived in the first ages of the Church had a fairer opportunity to understand the meaning of the Apostles, and their immediate successors, than we that live at so great a distance.  
Tertullian one of the most Ancient of them confesseth the practice of Infant Baptism, though he does not approve it. Cyprian and Fidus would never have contende● about the circumstance of time, if they had doubted of the lawfulness of the thing.  
I m●y add to what has been said; Either the Baptising of Infants is a small error, or 'tis a great and gross one: if i● be but a small error, an error of Charity towards poor Infants, why did the Ana●ap●i●ts in the late times of confusion, separate from those Churches which did not impose it as a necessary con●ition of Communion with them? If it be a great and gross one, than the Catholic Church has maintained a gross error for Fifteen hundred years and upward. How then was that promise made good unto it, that Christ's spirit should lead it into all truth and that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it?  Dub. 
Indeed those Texts of Scripture so well explained by the practice of the Catholic Church ●or so many years since the time of the Apostles, is an evident argument for the proof of Infant Baptism; but are you certain that Infant Baptism was practised in the Primitive times?  Firm. 
We are most certain from the writings of the Fathers in those times.  
Irenaeus, lib. 2. cap. 39 Origen. lib. 5. in cap. 6. ad Rom. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 8. ad ●idum. Hieronymus lib. 3. contra Pelagianos. Nazian. Ora●iones in sacrum lavacrum. Basil Orat. Exhort. ad Baptismum. Chrisost. Homil. 1. ad Neophyr. Augustine lib. 10. de Gen. cap. 23. The custom of Baptising Infants is an Apostolical Tradition, lib. 4. de Baptismo cap. 24. idem aff●rmat Prosper. lib. 22. the Vocatione Ge●tium, cap. 8. These three Fathers making use of the Baptising of Infants as an argument against the Pelagians, who denied Original Sin, which practise of Infant Baptism these subtle Heretics durst never deny, because they knew 'twas the practice of the Catholic Church.  Dub. 
'Tis strange th●t so m●ny Testimonies of the Ancient Doctors of the Church, with such evident places of Scripture before allegd, should not silence these perverse men.  Firm. 
By terming them perverse, you render a just reason why neither Scripture, nor Fathers, nor Arguments ●ill satisfy them; few of this Sect, (or indeed of any other) are Learned, except it be their Leaders, (Popish Priests and Jesuits) which spread such errors by design to make divisions among us, that they might ●eign. Now 'tis no strange thing to see ignorance and perverseness to dwell under the ●ame roof; for whosoever is capable of Conviction must have some knowledge and reason, that he may be able to understand the force of an argument when 'tis proposed unto him, as seduced Sectaries (being men of very short discourse) do not. Besides that little portion of reason which remains in them is so beclouded with sel●conceit, interest, and faction, prejudice, pride, and uncharitableness, th●t they have utterly lo●t all use of it. He that doubts of this, let him discourse either with Quaker, or Anabaptist, and he will find them a very proud, ignorant, conceited, perverse people.  Dub. 
I have sufficient experience of their Pride and Perverseness; but leaving them to their own simple fancies & Enthusiasms, let us proceed to the Presbyterians, to which party I first adhered when I forsook the Church of England, and and of all dissenters from th●t Church, in my opinion, they have the greatest show of reason for their separation.  Firm. 
In my judgement they have less reason to separate then any other, because they agree with us in Doctrinals, and are divided from us because of some Ceremonies, which are confessedly things indifferent; and for some modes of Government, viz. the Episcopal and Presbyterian, of which, though the former be the best, and most ancient, yet learned and most moderate men of both parties, do acknowledge, that neither of these Forms of Government, are so essential to the being of a Church, but that it may subsist and be a true Church under either of them, potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse, but more of this hereafter: But before we begin our discourse about Presbytery, let us speak a few things concerning Independency, for I have heard that you were sometimes of that persuasion.  Dub. 
True, I was once an Independent, or Congregational man, bu● seeing all Sectaries are in respect of Church fellowship Independents, and that these men for the most part have the same objections against the Church of England as the Independents make use of, I thought it superfluous to trouble you with any particular discourse concerning them.  Firm. 
There are Three things belonging to Independency, which we have not discoursed upon as yet, neither will they properly fall under debate in our intended Dialogue about Presbytery; if you please we will take a brief survey of them.  Dub. 
I willingly embrace this motion.   

DIALOGUE VI Against Independency.  Firm. 
THe first thing that I except against in the Independency, is the government practised in their particular Congregations, without any jurisdiction one over another, so that every of their Assemblies, is absolute within itself, without depending upon any Classical, Diocesian, Provincial, National Church, or general Counsel, whence they have the name of Independents.  Dub. 
Is it true that they will no● admit o● any Superior power over their respective Congreg●tions, nor appeal in case of divisions among themselves, unjust and injurious sentences given in their partial Judicatories.  Firm. 
They admit of no appeals, or no coercive po●er over them in any Consistories, Classis, or Counsel; One Congregational church may advise, exhort, or admonish another as brethren, or equals, but not punish or correct as Judge's o● Superiors; What do you say to this new knack of Church Government.  Dub. 
I think it to be Anarchical and confused, the Natural Parent of all Schisms and Hereses; I do not no● so much wonder how England of late years, since this headless faction prevailed amongst us, became a second Amsterdam. What error what heresy so gross, so damnable, what injustice, what oppression never so grievous which might not go unpunished in such assemblies from which there lies no appeal? how must they be broken into infinite fractions, especially where the fear of a Common enemy does not unite and piece them together?  Firm. 
You rightly apprehend; for all these dangers and inconveniences, are the necessary, consequents of Independent Congregations where any Popish Wolf in Sheep's Clothing has a fair opportunity to sow the seeds of Anabaptism, Quaquerism, Socianism, or any poisonous Heresy whatsoever, to spread the principles of Sedetion, and treason; as has been of late to much practised in this Nation, & I wish such Tares be not still scattered in our separating Conventicles to this very day. 'Twas the observation of Sir Rob. Cotton above threescore yea●s since that Priests and Jesuits did put on the habits of Captains, Merchants, etc. that that they might deceive poor ignorant people under that disguise, opera Posthu. Pag. 148.  Dub. 
You have said enough against this headless Church Government, and the sad consequences of it. I pray you proceed to the second thing you promised to debate concerning Independency▪  Firm. 
The second error does concern tithes, which generally the Independents (with other sectaries) would persuade the world are a great oppression upon the people, merely Levitical and not due or lawful under the Gospel.  Dub. 
I desire to hear from you what may be replied to these cavils, for I believe they are no better.  Firm. 
The paying of Tithes is no oppression upon the people, no injury to them at all, for if no freeholder, Farmer or Tenant whatsoever has any legal or equitable right ●r title to the tenth part by purchase, donation, inheritance, lease, or by any other imaginable conveyance: then the paying of Tithes can be no injury at all, but the free holder, Farmer, or Purchaser has no legal right to the tenth part, no more than the Minister has to the other nine, because for many hundred years it has been invested in the Church by as good laws as any layman has right or title to the free hold Farm or lease which he has Purchased or pays rend for; so that the tenth part cannot descend to any m●n by inheritance, gift or puchase, neither does any Tenant, pay one Penny of rent to his Land lord for that part of the increase of Fruits, Grain, Grass or any other Commodity whatsoever.  Dub. 
Truly Sir, I have heard as much; and if Tithes were taken from the Church, no question Landlords would raise their Rents and Fines and Purchasers would quickly find the price of land raised proportionably to a tenth part.  Firm. 
This is so plain that nothing but gross ignorance, Envy and Malice against the Clergy can entertain the least doubt of it.  Dub. 
Sir, you put me in mind of one thing which I have often thought upon, and much wondered at; that generally those that go under the n●me of Protestants in your Church, have little respect for their Ministers: whereas Papists and Presbyterians show great respect to theirs.  Firm. 
You need not wonder at it, the true reason of this contempt is for want of Zeal to that Religion which th●y profess; where●s Papists and Presbyterians are Zealous in theirs. But your mere formal Protestants (of which number there are too many) is a formal nothing one that is so far from the power of Godliness, that he has not the naked formality of it: Now there cannot be a greater sign of an irreligious Atheist, than contempt of the Clergy, for where they are despised, God cannot be honoured nor Religion had in esteem; if the Gentleman that has assigned reasons for the Contempt of the Clergy had thought on this, 'twould have been worth all the reasons in his whole Book, but it may be he was so much a stranger to his own heart, that he thought not of it.  Dub. 
But are not many Ministers themselves a chief cause that they are so contemned?  Firm. 
I was about to tell you so; 'tis much to be be wailed that too many in holy orders are through ignorance, negligence in the duties of their calling, looseness in their lives and conversations very scandalous, the greatest Nonconformists of all others, not true to our Church and her injunctions in the most weighty matters, placing all their Conformity in outward Ceremonies, and neglecting what is most necessary for their own salvation, and of those poor Souls which are committed to their charge, which are in great danger to perish through the ignorance, negligence and evil example of such blind guides.  Dub. 
But is not the poverty of many of them and the poor pittances allotted for their subsistence as great a cause of their contempt as any?  Firm. 
'Tis very true; and 'twere a work worthy of the defender of the Faith, and a Religious Parliament to redress this very great grievance, by uniting Little Churches, by finding out some effectual means for restoring of Impropriate Tithes and Glebs to their respective Ministers; which Impropriations are the very dregs of Popery, and a grand Sacrilege in any one that shall detain them from the Church.  Dub. 
I do a little wonder why you should c●ll Impropriations Popish, seeing many of those who took up arms against King Charles the First, di● it upon th● account of opposing Popery, and hindering the gro●th of i● in this ●●nd, and yet some of them are no ●mall I●p●op●ia●ors.  Firm. 
Certainly there was never a more manifest peic● of hypocrisy in the world, for men to be so seemingly zealous against the superstitions of Rome, and yet be so deeply in love with her Sacrilege. Surely there is some marvellous sweetness in Tithes and Church lands, that prelatical, Presbyte●ians, all parties can swallow down such morsels without any scruple: but let them take heed they prove not like that little Book, Rev. 10.9. sweet to the palate, but bitter in the belly.  Dub. 
Indeed I have heard that the Popes of Rome were the first and chiefest Authors of Impropriations, and that they did alienate Tithes and Glebes from their respected Parish Churches for the maintenance of Abbeys, Priories, Nunneries, etc.  Firm. 
'Tis ve●y certain that these alienations were made by the Authority of the Bishop of Rome for those uses, and at the demolishing of those places, those Impropriate Tithes and Church lands, were either given or sold to Courtiers and other of the Nobility and Gentry, which has proved the ruin of many Ancient and flourishing Families, and a very great hindrance to the growth of Religion for want of an able Ministry in many poor Parishes, where according to the old saying Scandalous livings have made a scandalous Clergy; and nothing would be a more effectual redress of this grievance, than (as was said before) the Uniting of little Parishes, the restoring of Impropriate Tithes and Glebes to the Church; together with a diligent inspection of the Bishops into the lives and learning of all those whom they shall either Ordain, or Institute.  Dub. 
I am fully persuaded, that the paying of Tithes is no oppression or injury to any man; but the Independents, and other Sectaries imagine that Tithes are a Levitical maintenance, and therefore to be abrogated under the Gospel; that Ministers now are to be maintained by a voluntary Contribution, or at best to have a set stipend.  Firm. 
That Tithes received not their beginning from the Levitical Law, is evident to any unbyased judgement, from the example of Abraham's paying them to Melchisedeck; of Jacob's vowing to give the Tenth of all that the Lord should bless him with; from the Apostles large discourse about Abraham and Melchisedeck, Heb. 7. By all which 'tis evident that Tithes had not their Original from the Levitical ●aw, and were not at first affixed to the Ar●nical, but to the Melchisedechian Priesthood.  
As to that of Stipend and Voluntary Contribution, 'tis a mere plot of the Devil, and Popish Emissaries, to render Ministers contemptible, by ●aking them Stipendiaries, or Eleemosynaries, directly contrary to what St. Paul has laid down, The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honour; which sufficiently evinceth, that they ought to have an honourable maintenance, and not to depend upon the cold and frozen Charity of the people, 
1. Cor. 9  (I am sure St. Paul found his Corinthians very backward to supply the Minister's necessity in better times than these we live in) like so many Stipendaries, or Alms-men, by which they will be force● to Preach placentia, or starve, and suit their Doctrine to the humour of every Mechanic. What a strange piece of nonsense is it, that amongst our Congregational men, the Minister should be the only poor Dependent? 'Tis most certain and evident to all that can make use of their reason, that God's way for the Minister's maintenance is the best, which both before, and under the Law given by Moses, was by Tithes, at least by God's approving of Ab●aham's paying them to Melchisedeck. 'twas strongly insinuated, that the great Lord of Heaven and Earth would in after times order and appoint that Tithes should be the maintenance for the Priest and Levite; which has continued for many hundreds of years under the Gospel, and there are many fair proofs from holy Scripture, that they are due by Divine Right; they are established by Civil and Ecclesiastical Laws, are the most convenient and rational way for the Ministers support, who by this means, when the earth brings forth plentifully shares with the people in that blessing; when less fruitfully as in times of scarcity, suffers with them in this Calamity, and thus partaking with them in blessings and afflictions will be the fitter to Stir them up thankfulness for the one, and to press upon them the great duties of Patience and Humiliation under the other  Dub. 
I did not doubt of the lawfulness and reasonableness of Tithes before we entered upon this discourse but now there is not the least scruple in me concerning them.  Firm. 
Therefore let us now proceed to another gross error maintained by the Independents and other Sectaries, about the electing of gifted Brethren into the office of Ministers.  Dub. 
That any gifted Brother any one that persuades himself that he has the Spirit, and through a strong imagination conceives himself fit to Speak in the Congregation, may without any farther trial, or lawful call take upon him the office of Public Preaching and Ministering in the Congregation (which is the most sacred and weighty of of all other) This is nothing less than a presumptuous usruping of the Priest's office. This I know to be the Opinion and practice of Independents and other Sectareiss; let me have your judgement of it.  Firm. 
That you shall most willingly. And herein my judgement is that this is one of the most wild and Fanatic opinions, that ever entered into the minds of men; that it opens a wide gap to all Schisms and Heresies, a certain cause of all manner of disorder and confusions in the Church: upon this account, Priests and Jesuits, and all manner of Sectaries, have had so fair an opportunity to vent their poisonous Tenants in the●● Independent Congregations.  Dub. 
I am fully persuaded that Shisms and Heresies are the necessary consequents of men's invading the Ministry without regular Ordination. But for my better satisfaction, I pray you let me understand the reasons that make against this Independent practice.  Firm. 
My Reasons are these; drawn  
First from plain Scripture, as jerem. 14.14. and 23.21. where there is a complaint against those Prophets That Prophesied lies in God's name, and he sent them not. And again the same Prophet, I have not sent these Prophets, and yet they ran; I have not spoken unto them, and yet they Prophesied, therefore they shall not profit these people at all.  
Neither was this Sending and Calling a necessary requisite only under the Law, but also in the time of the Gospel. The first that were ever called and sent to preach the glad tidings of the kingdom of Heaven, were the Apostles, who were first Disciples to the best of Masters, before they were sent out to Preach. First Qualified fo● the work, and then Sent. So upon the treason and death of judas, Mathias was made an Apostle in his place, but by Election and Ordination. Acts 1. Heb. 5. No man must take this honour upon him but he that is called of God; either immediately, or by the Governors of the Church; and hereupon it was that St. Paul left Timothy at Ephesus, and Titus at Crete, to Ordain Elders in every City, instructing them how the Priests and Deacons ought to be qualified.  
'Tis well worth our observation how the Apostle makes the salvation of men to depend ordinarily upon the Preaching of Sent and Called Ministers; Rom. 10. Whosoever calleth upon th● name of the Lord he shall be saved; but such Calling presupposeth Believing, Hearing, Preaching, Sending; how shall they Preach, except they be sent?  Dub. 
'Tis evident by the Scriptures, both of the Old and New Testament: That no man ought to take upon him the Office of a Minister, before he has a lawful Call from the Church, or can by working Miracles make it appear, that he is immediately called from God, which is not now to be expected.  Firm. 
And 'tis as evident from the practice of the Church from the time of the Apostles, even to this present age; for he that shall peruse her Records shall find that whosoever did presume to take upon himself the office of public Preaching, or Administation of the Sacraments, without an extraordinary Call, arrested by Miracles, or an ordinary one from the Governors of the Church, was ever accounted a Thief and a Robber, no true Shepherd that entered in at the Church door, but crept in, or climbed up some other way.  
And hereupon Tertullian complains, That in their Heretical Conventicles their Women were bold pratlers, they did preach, dispute, baptise; mere Laics; did usurp the Priest's office, by which means, instead of converting Heathens, they did pervert Christians. St. Hierom also in an Epistle to Paulinus, complains, That every one did presume to interpret holy Scripture; prating old women, doting old men, Husbandmen, Masons, jacks of all trades; even as it has been in this divided Nation; Tradesmen, Shoemakers, cobblers, Glover's, Tailors, have skip'd from the Shop to the Pulpit, and have left stitching of graments, to make a rent in the Church.  Dub. 
There is no ingenuous man that is acquainted with the Tenants of Anabaptists and Quakers, that will deny, that our Sectaries have sharpened their Tools, which they have used against us, at the Forges of these Philistines. Have you any thing else to object against these Schismatic practices?  Firm. 
Yes, The prudential order which is used in all other callings; the ablest Lawer, Gentleman, Soldier, mu●● not execute the office of a Judge Justice of Peace, Commander in war without a Commission; a Student in Physic cannot practise without a Linence; no man can set up his Trade in a well Governed Corporation until he has served out his Apprenticeship, and is made a Freeman. Such excellent order is observed in Civil affairs; but in the great concerns of the Church, there should b● nothing but confusion, if these men might be suffered to act according to their irrational and extravagant Fancies.  Dub. 
'Tis most apparent that their actions are against Scripture, the practice of the Cartholick Church, and the dictates of reason; which no Christian, no Sober man will contradict. Therefore let us leave this headless Faction, and discourse about Presbytery which has the most plausible reasons for its Nonconformity to our Church, of any other that do separate from us.   

DIALOGUE VII. Against Presbytery.  Firm.. 
THe first step you made out of our Church (as I have heard) was unto Presbytery; I desire to know the reasons why you left our Communion, and made choice of theirs?  Dub. 
I confess the first step I made out of the Church of England, was into the Tents of Presbytery, thence to the Independents, and so to the Anabaptists, and at last I became little better than an Atheist, as I before have declared. Thus unhappy man as I was, being out of the true Church, I was like Noah's Dove out of the Ark; fluttering over the Floods of Errors, and boisterous waves of Shism●, Factions, and Heresies, finding no firm land for the sole of my foot to rest upon.  Firm. 
This was not your case alone, but of many ●n un●table soul, th●t in those la●e times of Rebellion, & confusion, Eph. 4. has been blown about with every wind of doctri●e by the sleight of men, (Jesuits, Priest, and Socintans) and their cunning craftiness, whereby they hav● lain in wait to deceive. An ●●ence it was th●t the Prophet David's curse fell he●vy upon them: for they have fallen from one wickedness to another; from one wicked opinion to a s●●ond, a third, etc. till at length they have turned Seekers, Sceptics, Atheists, and Scoffers at all Religion.  Dub. 
This was once my condition, but praised be the Lord, who has brought my foot out of the snare. I have by his blessing shaked off all those wild and groundless fancies, and am more than half persuaded that the Church of England, is one of the mo●t Orthodox, Apostolical Churches under the cope of Heaven. However for my better confirmation, let me hear your answers to those exceptions which the Presbyterians have urged, against her government by Arch-Bishops, Bishops, Deans and Chapters, her liturgy, her set Forms of Prayer, her Ceremonies, her receiving persons of scandalous lives, and grossly ignorant in the principles of Religion, to the holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. These were the great scandals at which I sometimes stumbled and fell from the Communion of the Church, into the Congregation of our Classical Brethren.  Firm. 
I shall mos● willingly give in my answer to those exceptions, in that order you have ranked them. Therefore in the first place, let me hear what you can object against our Bishops.  Dub. 
I have been told, They are Antchristian, not heard of in the Primitive times. Such Plants as our Heavenly Father hath not planted, and therefore to be rooted out.  Firm. 
True 'tis, such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons; such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of; but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture, by the practice of the ●niversal Church; attested by the general consent of Fathers and Counsels, as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel; Dr. Tailor's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy, with many others.  
First, The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy. Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples, had his Twelve Apostles, which were superior to them, as is evident by the choosing of Mathias into the place of judas; from the example of Timothy and Titus, the one a bishop of Crect, the other of Ephesus; by the general consent of Antiquity, in those and other Churches. In that once famous Church of Rome, we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there, about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus. What should I mention the Angels of the Seven Asiatic Churches? 
●po●. 2.3.  which by the general consent of the Father's, were the Bishops of those Churches; nay St. Hierome himself (no good friend to this Order) does acknowledge, That when Christians began to he divided, one being of Paul, an other of Cephas, to prevent such Schisms, there past an universal Decree throughout the world, Th●t Bishops should be settled in every City, who should govern with the Common Council of the Bresbyters; and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest, for taking away the seeds of Schism.  Dub. 
I am very well persuaded, by what you have said, that the Primitive government of the Church, was by Bishops, with the assistance of the Presbytery, who had authority over the Presbyters, and were their superiors. But I pray you satisfy me in this one thing. Why did St. Paul so sharply reprove the Corinthians, for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person, if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop?  Firm. 
This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection: but if we seriously consider the words upon which 'tis grounded, it has no weight at all. The Text that is cited to prove it is. 1. Corinth. 5.2. Ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation, for so soul a sin, not for the neglect of Excommunication. He that had committed that great sin, was to be taken away, or cut off from the church, but they themselves could not exclude him, but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul, verse 3, 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally ●eated; there being then no Bishop of Corinth; for evident it is, that in those Churches, where there were no Bishops, the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands, until Bishops were settled among them, as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Crect. Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters (as such) had any Jurisdiction belonging to the public government of the Church, but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles, and Bishops, and no● by virtue of their own Order.  Dub. 
I am very well satisfied, both from Scripture, and the general practice of the Church (which is the best Comment on the Text) That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution: and I confess I am much confirmed in this persuasion, by God's blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men; such as Cranmer, Ridley, jewel, Carlton, Abbots, Morton, Andrews, Usher, (who of English extraction) Hall, Laud, and Sanderson, Hooker, Cracanthorp, jackson, etc. whose profound Learning and Piety, has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome, that ever she received ●rom any Protestant writers; and their judicious works have been the strongest sense against Popery, Heresy, Rebellion and Schism, that the Christian world can ever boast of.  Firm. 
I much rejoice that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men; I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses. We will now, if you please, proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters, you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned, and many more your opposites in this your second exception, as well as in the former.  Dub. 
'Tis probable I shall, however that I may receive full satisfaction from you, give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them. As  
1. They were not from the Beginning, but as it were of yesterday.  
2. They seem to be very useless, serving only to maintain the pride and grandeur of many idle drones.  
3. Many poor Parochial Churches are robbed of their Tithes and Glebs' to maintain such lazy Ministers.  
4. Their Vicar's Choral, and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation, have little sense, or relish of Religion.  
5. Their Toning of Prayers, their Chore service is like a Latin Mass, not understood by the people.  
6. Their Organs, and other Musical Instruments are Levitical, utterly unlawful under the Gospel.  Firm. 
You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution; but I shall presently make you understand the contrary.  
First, I shall show you that Cathedrals, Deans and Chapters, (though not under those names) were from the beginning of Christianity. It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles, and the Records of the Church, that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (those spiritual Fishermen) cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts. They usually Preached in the most Populous Cities, where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches, to which the Suburbican, or those that dwelled in the adjacent Villages were subject, and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishop's Diocese, which they governed (as St. Hirome confesses) by the common council and assistance of Presbyters, termed at Rome in after times Cardinals, or chief Presbyters, and in the time of Charles the great (as the Magdeburgenses inform us) were incorpated into a College under the name of Dem and Chapter; the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter. Before the sounding of Universsitys, these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets, where young Students were trained up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning; Gerard gives us a taste of their first institution, their corruption, and how they might be restored to their primitive uses. I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books, and well Studied men to consult with, and leisure, (all which we Country Ministers are deprived of) would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals, and manifest to this invidious age, that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very useful to the Church, and very Ancient, as I before intimated (although under other names:) and I do somewhat wonder that neither Bishop, Dean, or Ganon (so far as I know) has hitherto vindicated these Churches, from those reproaches which have been cast upon them, by ignorant, spiteful, sacrilegious persons. 
† 'Twas not long since, that some of the Presbyterian a●d Impendent persuasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford; such Dignities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian; why should they be esteemed so now?   Dub. 
But do not we see that Bishops, Deans and Canons, do not join together in the government of the Church, but rather are at variance and oppose one another, are mostly Nonresident, keep not that Hospitality which their Predecessors usually did? and therefore they being thus useless, 'twere fit their lands were sold and employed to better purposes.  Firm. 
This was your second exception against Cathedrals, but a very frivelous one, drawn from the worst Topick, from personal abuses, to take a way the true use of the thing itself. This is mere Clowns Logic and makes as much against Parish Churche●, Schools, Universities and all Courts of Justice, as against Cathedrals. The abuses ought to be taken away; I am as much for a reformation as any man, but not for an extirpation.  
If Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, do not join together in the Government of the Church, 'tis the fault of their Persons not of their Institution. Deans and Canons ought to be of Council to the Bishop in a subordinate way; not to have cordinate power and Authority with him. If they are too much guilty of nonresidence, (as it cannot be denied but that many of them are,) this aught to be reformed by Mulcts and Punishments, but especially by those that have the power of collating those dignities, that they do not confer them upon any person that lives out of the Diocese, or at too great a distance from the Cathedral, which is a very great abuse and wants Reformation. As for the keeping of Hospitality, the cavil is just the same which the egyptians had against the Isralits', for not fulfilling their tale of Brick, when they denied them straw to make it. Sacrilegious hands have Rob Cathedrals of many of their rich Manors, and how should it be possible for Deans and prebend's to maintain that Hospitality which their Predecessors heretofore have kept. I know a Canon, of one of the most Ancient Cathedrals in England, that his necessary expenses in his Residence, & journeys, being deducted, did not receive de claro five pounds yearly, for seven years in twelve. Now according to the law of God and nature, Families, Wives, and Children must be provided for; and how can such necessary provision and any considerable Hospitality stand together, out of an Hundred Marks or an Hundred Pounds of yeary Income; which is more than some Cathedral Residentaries do receive to my knowledge? I wish that those of the Gentry who have their Thousands of yearly Revenues would forbear their squandring away of their Rich Patrymonies in vanities and very sinful courses, that they would keep Hospitality and Residence, upon their own Rich Manors, amongst their poor Tenants and Neighbours who eat the Bread of carefulness, and then they might with greater confidence c●vil at the nonresidence and w●nt of Hospitality in the clergy. The best way to pull out the Moth which they discover in the Church's eye, is first of ●ll to cast out the Beam which is in their own eye.  
Second, Whereas you object, that Cathedral dignities are made subservient to the pride and luxury of the Idle and lazy Ministers; my reply shall be very short. If any such be ●rept into such places I shall not be their advocate, but be ready to throw the first Stone at them. But I pray you do not cast such dirt upon those who have laboured in the word and doctrine, but esteem them worthy of double honour, however the infirmities of old age, have now seized upon them; dimness of sight, weakness of memory, an hoarse voice, and feeble lungs. If these Cathedral perferments be great encouragements to younger men, (which none but Fools and Sacrilegious persons will deny:) Why may not such places, be as so many Ecclesiastical Hospitals for these (Milites emiriti) old soldiers of Jesus Christ? who have warred a good warfare, and though now they are less able to teach in the Pulpit, yet may they instruct out of it, by their grave and exemplary lives, and sage counsels. 1. Tim. 5.17. Let the Elders that rule well (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be worthy of double honour.  Dub. 
I beg your pardon for those hasty words that dropped from me against Cathedrals, I clearly understand they are not so useless as the ignorance, envy, and malice of some men would render them. Let me hear from you how you can vindicate them from defrauding Parochial Churches of their Tithes and Glebs, by appropriating them to themselves.  Firm. 
This exception cannot totally be avoided; yet Cathedrals are not so much in fault as the Supreme power of the land, which took away their rich Manors, and gave them in their stead lean and scandalous Impropriations, which (as some say) was done in policy to prevent their total abolition, which fate Abbeys and Priories had lately suffered under; for those rich Manors being exchanged for poor Impropriations, Cathedrals were not now so sweet and luscious morsels to sacrilegious palates.  Dub. 
But is there no means to augment the maintenance of those Churches whose Tithes are Impropriate to Cathedrals!  Firm. 
At his Majesty's happy Restauration, there was a fair opportunity which offerred itself, the like we cannot expect. How easy had it been then to have settled a competent maintenance upon most Churches in the Nation? Some augmentations by his Majesty's appointment were then made, I wish there had been more: I know no other way to redress this grievance, but by annexing some prebend's unto the Vicaridges of these Impropriated Churches, which might be done in Cathedrals of the old Foundation, where there are minor Prebendaries distinct from Residentiaries, mean while those Parochial Churches are supplied mostly by the Vicar's Choral, whose maintenance from their College and privy Tithes, received from those Churches where they serve, is not contemptible. I wish 'twere better, and that some of them, by their industry and conscientious diligence in their Ministry did deserve a better subsistence, at which wish no man can take exceptions, but he that is guilty of ignorance or negligence in the duty of his calling, which is his fault in being so, and not mine in wishing it should be otherwise.  Dub. 
I perceive by your discourse that 'tis rather the unhappiness, than the fault of Cathedrals that Parochial Tithes are appropriated unto them; but certainly i● Canons Residentiaries were Beneficed in, or near the Cities where Cathedrals are situate, and a competent maintenance allowed them from the respective Citizens, the Vicar's Choral (those of them who are not Preachers) might assist as Curates, for Baptizing, Burials, and other inferior Offices, and so by the continual residence of the Bishops, Deans, Canons and Vicar's Choral, the Chore service, Preaching Catechising, Church discipline, and Government might be much better performed then now it is, and those scandals and reproaches which are so frequently cast upon Cathedrals, more rationally be confuted.  Firm. 
I much approve of what you say, for the Nonresidency of Bishops, Deans, and Canons, and the remote Vicaridges of Vicar's Choral from their respective Cathedrals, is the just occasion that the service of God is very perfunctorily performed, to the great scandal of the Government of the Church, which we can look upon as a grieveance, but 'tis only in the power of King and Parliament to redress,  Dub. 
The Lord put it into their hearts, to undertake so good and pious a work. ●et me now hear what you can answer to what is objected against the Lives a●e Conversations of Vicar's Choral, Petty Canons, Singing-men, as they are settled in some Cathedrals.  Eiru●. 
My answer is, That the charge is too general, and favours of want of Charity. That some of them may be such, whose conversation is not so commendable as it should be, or that they have not that sense and relish of religion, which ought to be in men of that Place and Calling, I fear may too justly be charged upon them; but much of this dirt might be wiped off by the constant Residence, grave Example, and strict Discipline of those to whom the government of the Church belongs. 'Tis confessed, that through the corruption of our natures, the best duties, frequently performed, are apt to degenerate into cold and airy formalities.  
'Tis the great happiness of those Christians which dwell near Cathedrals, that they may meet Three t●mes a day, Evening, Morning, and Noon, to offer up prayer and praises to the High and Holy God; but 'tis very much to be lamented, that Citizens, and others, not hindered by necessary occasions, should be so frequently absent from these solemn Assemblies, as usually they are. It is yet more to be lamented, that those whose duty it is to officiate at those solemn services should look upon them as a (p●nsum,) a task, a burden; as naughty boys at school do their lessons; how far are such stupid souls from holy David's zeal and piety. One thing (saith that good King▪ Psal. 22.4.) have I desired of the Lord, which I shall seek after, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to inquire in his Temple.  
Want of sense & zeal at holy Offices, is not the fault of Chore, or Choir service, but of those that Officiate; who if they will seriously fix their hearts upon those holy duties, when they sing and give praise, as David did, attending to the matter of their heavenly and ravishing Anthems, as well as to the Music, they would not look ●pon the service as a burden, but as a blessed opportunity thus to praise Almighty God in the beauty of Holiness.  Dub. 
Happily it might be so to those who understood those Anthems, but I have heard some say, that the singing in Chores is to them much like a Latin service, they knowing not what is sung.  Firm. 
This is your fifth Exception, and 'tis indeed a very weak one; there being none who frequent this service, but know very well what is sung, (unless it be the full Anthem:) let those that make this objection, frequent this service, and then they will be ashamed of so frivelous a Cavile, and easily perceive the fault to have been in themselves, and not in the service.  Dub. 
There is one exception yet behind against your Chore service; as the use of Musical Instruments, in the performance of a great part of it, which are said to be Levitical, and therefore unlawful under the Gospel, as we have seen in the Geneva Notes upon the last Psalm, as also in Aquinas, Quest. 22.9, 19 and divers other Learned Men.  Firm. 
This is a very gross mistake; for Musical Instruments are not part of the Levitical law, never instituted by Moses, who was so faithful a servant in his trust that he would not have omitted to enjoin them, had they been given him in Charge by Almighty God. They were in use long before Moses, presently after the Creation of the world, for Gen. 4. we read that the rare gift of playing on Musical Instruments was given to jubal. Can we imagine that such a gift was bestowed on him to Stir up wantonness and lust, by the more artificial singing, of unsavoury Sonnets? Or is it not more rational to conceive that this skill in Music was given to men to Sing forth the Praises of our great Creator in a more excellent manner? When we Glorify the Lord we ought to exalt him as much as we can: Ecclesiasticus. 43.30. And surely if Music has a natural influence upon our affections to Stir up and quicken them in wantonness and dalliance, certainly it may work the same effect, upon them to quicken and enliven them in a more devout and intensive Praising of Almighty God in all those that have a Religious tendency, and a serious disposition to his worship and service; besides seeing 'tis a moral and perpetual duty, to show forth the Praises of God, all rational men will consent that this aught to be performed after the best manner, and consequently with such skill and are that has the greatest influence upon our affections, rather than after such a manner which renders the service of God mean and contemptible as 'tis rendered in many of our Parochial Churches.  Dub. 
You have fully satisfied me that Musical Instruments in the service of God are not Levitical, but are natural means to Stir up the affections in these sacred Hymns and Anthems. Nevertheless I have heard that many who are much taken with Chore Anthems, are much offended at the manner of reading of Prayers in Cathedrals; when they pray for the Sick, they use the ordinary tone which is used in Parish Churches, at other times they pronounce their Prayers in a middle way between Reading and Singing. Which seems to be not so grave and suitable to the Solemnity of Prayer.  Firm. 
I confess this is a common objection, and some that are no enemies to Cathedral service have in this much desired a reformation, but this must be left to the prudence of those that set at the serve; mean while we ought not to condemn the Quireservice for this seeming indecency, well knowing that the stress of Religious duties does not consist in the toning and modulation of the voice but in the Music of the heart and affections, in a serious and devout fixing of the mind upon the things that are Read or Sung, the want of which, in those who Read Prayers or Sing Anthems, is no little sin, and one main reason why some of our Singing-men are not so seriously devout as they ought to be, & really those that are frequently present, officiating in holy duties unpreparedly, carelessly, formally, and irreverently, by God's just judgement may be given up to a senseless stupidity, for their profanation of the holy ordinances of God.  Dub. 
'Tis certain, that a●prophane careless performing of Divine service is a very great sin, and a necessary cause of irreligion and practical Atheism, one exception I had almost forgot which concerns Choristers, who are said to be, for the most part, very untoward Children.  Firm. 
First, This cannot be denied, but the reasons are first, negligence in the Music Masters, whose chiefest care it is to teach them to Sing, and the end why they Sing: namely to set forth the Praises of their Creator▪ neither are they so careful to instruct them how to behave themselves reverently and devoutly at the worship and service of God.  
Secondly, Some of them are not set to the Grammar School, where upon they squander away a great part of their time in vain sports, and idleness which is the Mother of all villainy and wickednss.  
Thirdly. But the chiefest reason of all is that our Choristers are commonly the Children o● mean Parents, who for the most part are very ignorant in the great matters of Religion, and extremely negligent in the concerns of their own and their children's Souls; Now Deans and Chapters are necessitated to make choice of such poor Children, because the better sort of people, disdain to have their Children brought up in that noble Science of Music, which is their gross ignorance; besides their scorn and contempt of this Science, they misconceive that if they should send them to the Music School it would hinder them in their Grammar learning, which might easily be prevented by employing those hours only at Music which are spent in foolish, insignificant sports and pastimes, which as I am informed, is the practice in some places beyond Sea; where their youths spend much of the afternoons in Music and Dancing, Training, Mathematics, and such like manly and profitable exercises, which conduce both to the health of the body, and benefit of the understanding.  Dub. 
I perceive that those exceptions against Deans and Chapters and Cathedral service are not so substantial, as once I conceived them to be. If you please, we will now proceed to those which I have heard urged with much earnestness against ●et forms of Prayer, and in particular against the Liturgy of the Church of England.  Firm. 
Most willingly, I pray you favour me with the recital of them.  Dub. 
'Twould be to much trouble and to little purpose to mention all that I have heard, seeing many of them are very frivolous and not worthy of a serious answer, those that seem to be the most material, are, First that they are imposed by man's Authority. Secondly, they stint the Spirit. Thirdly they are cold and dead forms, our Spirits are not affected, and quickened by them, as by conceived and extemporary Prayers▪  Firm. 
First, whatsoever is imposed upon us by man's Authority contrary to the word of God is utterly unlawful, but set Forms taken out of ●ods word, are not contrary to that word, especially when not only the very matter of them is contained in Holy Scripture, but the very words and phrase. 'Tis a strange piece of nonsense that what is in itself lawful and laudable should cease to be so, because 'tis commanded by our Superiors. True indeed, that things in themselves lawful (being in their own nature but indifferent) if commanded as necessary and intrinsically holy, are upon that account unlawful and repugnant to Christian liberty; but more of this when we shall discourse about▪ Ceremonies.  
Secondly, That the Spirit is stinted by a set Form; and that Reading of Prayers out of a Book, cannot be praying by the Spirit.  
To this I reply, That if their were any truth in these exceptions, how comes it to pass that ●e have so many set Forms of Prayer, and thanksgiving in Holy Scripture? How do set form● of Prayer more stint the Spirit, then set Forms of Psalms for Singing? Yea; does a set Form of Prayer more stint the Spirit than the extemporary conceptions of the Minister limit and stint the Spirit of the Congregation, to whom they are upon this account in the nature of set Forms? When these queries shall be rationally answered, I shall through away all set Forms which have been used by the ●hristian Churches for above 1400 years. Besides those of the Presbyterian persuasion allowed them as lawful in their conferences with the Bishops anon after his Majesty's restauration.  
As to the other part of the other exception that reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit; this to those who understand the true meaning of that Phrase is a most frivolous cavil; for setting aside the extraordnary gift of prayer, to pray in, or by, the Spirit denotes first the making of our prayers according to the mind of the Spirit expressed in the Scripture, as may appear Col. 3.16. Secondly, to pray by the Spirit, is to pray by that principle of grace wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, and enabling us to every good duty, as well as to prayer. Thirdly to pray by the Spirit is when the Spirit does stir up our hearts to this Holy duty, working in us good desires, and motions, quickening our faith and fervency, whereby our hearts minds & spirits go along with out Tongues and Words, uttered either in a set Form or by our extemporary expressions, which is usually practised by knowing Christians in their Closet devotions.  Dub. 
I confess I am not able to show why set Forms of Prayer should stint the Spirit, more than set forms of Singing, and I am persuaded that praying by the Spirit, signifies no more than the assistance of the holy Spirit quickening and stirring us up to, and in, Prayer; whereby our hearts and spirits are fixed in that holy duty joining and going along with the Tongue and Voice, but truly I find by experience that my Spirit is more stirred up by a Prayer that is new, which I never heard before, being lively delivered, then by a common Form read out of a Book.  Firm. 
This is the chiefest reason ●hich renders men such admirers of extemporary Prayers, and so opposite to set forms; their own experience tells them that they are more taken with such Prayers then with common Forms read out of a Book; whi●h phanciful experience no wise man will plead against reason and judgement, it being very deceitful and the issue of a very common corruption, and humane infirmity, which inclines us to be more taken with what is new, then with what we have often heard, especially when 'tis delivered in a lively tone, with pleasing actions and gesticulations of the Body, and without Book, though for substance, and soundness, what is read be infinitely before it.  
Pray Sir, answer me but this one question; whether are your affections more stirred up at the reading of some portion of Scripture by the Minister, or at a good Sermon, delivered from the Pulpit?  Dub. 
I confess I am much more affected, my affections are more wrought upon by a good Sermon delivered with life and action then at the reading of the best Chapter in the Bible.  Firm. 
I believe you, yet you will not say that the best Sermon that ever was made by man, is to be prefers before a portion of sacred Scripture. The explication, or application of the word, mixed with much of man's conceptions, before the pure word itself, and esteem the hearing of it read useless and unlawful.  Dub. 
God forbid I should:  Firm. 
You see by this one instance, how fallible your own phantiful experience has been, and how it has lead you against Scripture, against the general practice of the Church, against all sober reason, so dangerous a thing it is for men of short discourse, that are not masters of reason, but are guided to fancies, over poured by passions, engaged in parties to meddle with controversies, which are too high and hard for them.  Dub. 
I confess that 'twas no great wonder, that so mean a man as I should be mistaken, but 'tis very strange, that so many grave and learned men as were in the late Assembly, should be so much against the Common Prayer Book of the Church of England, which I have heard learned men affirm to be the best Liturgy in the world.  Firm. 
'Twas very strange that so many learned men, should be overborne by some leading men, that had more zeal than judgement, and happily more of interest and design then of learning and piety▪ but as there have been Parliament-drivers, so there have been Assembly-drivers, and Convocation-drivers, before you or I were born, and will be after we are in our graves. And I am confident, tha● disguised Priests and Jesuits have had more than one finger, in animating the Presbiterians, against the Church of England, as well as (to my knowledge) they have had in fomenting Anabaptism▪ and Quaquerisme, so● 'tis their Maxim, divide & impera, divide the Heretics, and w●e shall Reign.  
I have more charity then to believe that the Assembly (the greatest part of them) were of opinion that set Forms of Prayer were either useless, or unlawful, though they cannot be excused from too much compliance (I fear) against their own judgements. They could not be ignorant that the vote against the Book of Common-Prayer was contrary to the sentiments of the most learned men in all the Reformed Churches beyond Sea, of very sober men in this Nation, (known heretofore by the name of Puritans) the most discreet and moderate of that Party were never against set forms; of the Reverend Bishops of the Church of England; many of which sacred order have bee● as famous in their generation, both for learning and piety as former ages ever knew; yea since His Majesty's happy Restauration, the chiefest of the Presbiterian persuasion, have acknowledged set forms of Prayer in public to be lawful, they plainly confess in their Conference with the Bishops they are not against them; but every day's experience will make it evident, they must be for them, as well as not against them, unles● the late Assembly, could have as easily voted, and made all Ministers of the Church of England, Discreet, Judicious, Orthodox, and of a ready Elocution, as they did rashly and inconsiderately, vote down the Liturgy.  
Besides the Congregation, especially the weaker sort, those t●at are ignorant, and cannot read, may better join in prayer, when the Forms of i● are known and common, than they can in strange ●nd extemporary expressions, with which they are altogether unacqainted; which being the practice in the late ti●es of confusion, has taught the people only to hear prayers, as if they were so many Sermons, wherein they were not at all concerned to join with their hearts and tongues, and to say Amen; or as if the ear were the only member to be employed in that holy duty.  
Again, Set and prescribed Forms, consisting of Scriptural phrases and expressions, unaffected and ●●tted to the understanding of the meanest capacity, are soon received into the heart, and aptest to excite and carry along with them judicious and steady affection's, as King Charles the Fir●● ha● observed in his most excellent Book. Hereunto may be added, That out of well composed Forms, the weaker Christians may be furnished with a stock of wholesome expressions, composed by the advice, & joint sistance of the chief Pastors and Ministers of th● Church, for their help and direction in their private Devotions, which i● impossible to b● done by the sudden, various, uncertain expressions of divers particular Ministers.  
Besides, Set Forms are necessary for uniformity in the public worship; and upon this account learned and sober men have wished there were but one public Liturgy in all Christian Churches in the world; which (if it were possible) would be a great means of peace and unity amongst Christians, by preventing the spreading of Schisms and Heresies, that may be as well prayed up as preached up; as also undecent, unscriptural expressions, tautologies, vain-repetitions, fantastical affected words and phrases, utterly abhorrent from the sobriety and gravity of Divine Oratory, which is quite another thing from that of the Stage or Desk.  
Lastly, Should we deal with an understanding Recusant, endeavouring to persuade him to forsake his superstitious worship, and to join himself to our Assemblies; how could we assure him (if we have no public established Liturgy) that our way and manner of worship is, and shall continue Scripture-proof, sound and innocent, without errors and indecencies? Do we think that any wise man, would leave his Popish blind way of worship, to be guided by our dark Lantern; not being rationaly assured, after what way we do worship the God of our Fathers? which we cannot satisfy him in, if we have no set Liturgy.  Dub. 
I very much approve of your reasons for Public Set Forms of Prayer; as also of your answer to that argument drawn from Experience, which appears so great and mighty to some men's vain imaginations, but is indeed very weak and fallacious.  Firm. 
You must give me leave to add Two things more in answer to that argument drawn from Experience, and then we will discourse of those exceptions against our Common-Player in particular.  
1. I will oppose experience to experience, those that reproach our Common-prayer, for a cold and dry Service, extolling extemporary conceptions so much beyond it; let these men make this easy experiment to themselves. Let them take some of th● best of extemporary prayers verbatim, which your Short-hand-writers can exactly do, let these prayers be read or repeated memoriter, with all the advantages of pleasing tones, bodily gesticulations, lively pronunciations, and assure yourself they will at length appear to be as dull, dry and cold as any part of our Liturgy.  
2. I would have you seriously consider what the most judiceous Hooker says concerning Sermons, and Reading of Scripture; why the former are so highly esteemed and the other so much slighted; the truth is, they please more than Lessons and Chapters by reason of those outward advantages which a Sermon well delivered has above th● Scripture barely read; besides the singular attention and affection which men are apt to express toward the one, and their cold disposition toward the other; partly because 'tis usual to let those things pass carelessly by our ears which we have often heard before or, know we may haer again when ever we please; and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh, and if they slip by us for the present, what excellencies soever they contain is lost, which creates the grater attention, which causes the greater affections: so far that worthy man. This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalved in respect of extemporary and conceived effusions.  Dub. 
I am abundantly satisfied, that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawful, but very useful in the Public Service of the Church. I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgy of the Church of England. First, that 'tis taken out of the Mass Book. Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer, which are short and customary wishes, rather than serious and devout Prayers. Thirdly, that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publicly read, which contain things incredible and ridiculous. As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy, they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation; he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker, Mr Ball himself (a Nonconformist) in his trial of the grounds of Separation, with many others.  Firm. 
Your First exception is the issue of Spite and Ignorance; what though it contains many things that are in the Mass Book, as the Creeds, the Te● Commandments, the Lords-Prayer, and divers Collects? Shall a true man refuse to take his goods, and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house? Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 'twas once mingled with chaff, and tares, albeit 'tis now winnowed and sifted? Or shall we refuse Paul's Epistles, because there are in them certain savoury passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens?  
The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church, true 'tis; it's now sadly corrupted, yet as corrupt as 'tis, all is not chaff which that Church retains, there remains in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swaddling clothes, this wheat we retain, the ch●ff we h●ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation, you see what a malicious cavil this is, that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the M●ss; malice in some, and ignorance, in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny.  
2. As to your Second exception; that our Liturgy contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer: pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer, (God be merciful to me a sinner) is any prayer in our Liturgy more short than that which our Saviour so well approved? Short ejacuculations, concise forms, Holy breathe of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture, and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God; those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects, let them justify the length of theirs if they can, from any one prayer in Scripture, or Fathers that is a quater of an hour long.  
Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer, and humane infirmities, seriously consider, ●hether or no, our Church has not carried herself very prudently both in the Method, Phrase, Form and ordering of her Service. Are not all her holy Offices the matter, and mostly the very words and choicest portions of holy Scriptures, what an unworthy calumny is it, to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Mass? Could any thing be uttered more falls and invidious? those excellent Prayers She uses, how are they ●itted to our infirmities, mixed with Psalms, Hymns, and choice portions of Scripture? is not this order and method more suitable to the weak capacities, and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation, than a long extemporary Prayer, for matter many times Heretical, Schismatical, Irreverent, strangely bold, unbeseeming a poor sinful Worm, to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty, of our Great and Good God?  Dub. 
I know by my own experience th●t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull ●nd de●den our attentions, and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalised both at the matter, as also at the un-Scriptural, fantastical, Affected expressions used in such Prayers, which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book, whose phrase and words are very grav●, and decent, and being taken out of the word of ●od are most fit to be offered up to the Almighty God, when we speak unto him in Prayer. I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method, Matter, grave Oratory of the English Liturgy, being 'tis so consonant to, and coresponding with, the Holy Scripture. So that I stand amazed at the impudence of those that first gave out, that 'twas borrowed from the Mass Book, and at the dull ignorance of those, that will believe so notorious a Lye. The Book I acknowledge to be rarely composed, and not only useful in our public Worship, but also a very profitable directory for our Family, & private devotions.  
Now to the last objection: Were it not better that some Apocryphal Chapters were left out of the calendar, and Canonical Lessons set in their place?  Firm. 
Many learned men have indeed thought so, and have wished for a change in this particular, Mr Hooker has these words, Those Ecclesiastical Books (for so they were called in ancient times, not Apocryphal under which title were contained such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in public) I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case myself did think (as some do) that 'twere more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publicly: nevertheless as in other things of like nature, so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgement against the force of their Reverend Authority, considering the excellency of some things in all, and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publicly read, and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament, and to grant at the least unto some of them public audience in the house of God.  Dub. 
I do fully acquiess in the pious, prudent, and peaceable determination of this worthy man: and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church; 'tis superfluous to name them all. But only those which are most spoken against, the Surplice, the Ring in Marriage, Bowing at the name of Jesus, Kneeling at the Sacrament, and especially the Cross in Baptism, which are said to be Popish and superstitions.  Firm. 
As the Kingdom of Heaven does not consist in Meats, and Drinks, but in Righteousness and peace, Rom. 14. so neither does it consist in gestures, vestures, or any thing that is in itself indifferent; when the Church commands us to wear such a vestment, or to use such a gesture for Uniformity sake, and outward decency, not placing any intrinsical Holiness, or absolute necessity in any of those Ceremonies: 'tis our duty and not any superstition at all to be obedient; yea we are guilty of the sin of disobedience, and superstition also if we stand out against lawful Authority.  
For there is a two fold Superstition, one Positive, as when we ascribe Holiness to any thing that is in its own nature indifferent, morrally neither good nor evil; another Negative, as when we Dogmatise, and call that evil which Morally is not so, and in such things, Wear not, Kneel not, is as much Superstition as Wear or Kneel possibly can be.  
What is it to any understanding man, whether he Prays or Preaches in Black or White or any other Colour, unless it be for decency and uniformity? the power of the Church limits us to a White Surplice, rather than to a Black jump, or short Cloak.  Dub. 
But is not this an entrenchment upon our Christian liberty, to be confined to particular Modes and Forms?  Firm. 
Not at all. So long as our practice only is limited, and our judgement left free as before any such Canon was made; 'tis strange that the same men who enjoined three Ceremonies at the taking of the Covenant as to be bare Headed, bore Handed, the right Hand lifted up, should so much scruple them in our Public Service.  
But in a word, 'tis plain Scripture, that every Soul should be subject to the Higher Powers, not only for wrath but also for Conscience sake. Now unless the Non-Conformists can bring as plain Scripture against our Ceremonies, to prove them morally evil, they must incur the sin of Schism, and disobedience to those powers which God has ordained; and these are far greater sins than the wearing of a Surplice, though we had borrowed it from the Pope himself.  Dub. 
You mind me now of one of the greatest exceptions against the Surplice, etc. because the Papists use it in their superstitious Worship, therefore 'tis unlawful for us to wear it in ours.  Firm. 
If this were a good reason, 'twould follow; whatsoever the Papists do use or have abused in their Superstition, 'tis unlawful for us, (who have abandoned such trash and I rumpery to) use, but Papists have abused our Churches, (halices, and other Ornaments in their falls Worship and Services, therefore we may not use them; but down with them, down with them even to the Ground.  Dub. 
This indeed will be a very necessary consequent, but a very costly one, I fear the men that make this exception, would not be very forward to Build them up again: if Idolatry and Superstition, were a just cause to make us lay aside our Surplices; by the same reason we must pull down our Churches, and upon the same account the Primitive Christians ought not to have eaten meat offered to Idols, neither to have made use of the Heathens Temples, to celebrate the Worship and Service of the true God.  Firm. 
You see then how frivolous the exception against the Surplice is, and so are all those that are offered against the Ring in Marriage, bowing at the name of Jesus. Kneeling at the Sacrament, the Cross after Baptism, and therefore I shall very briefly pass them over.  
1. For the Ring 'tis as Ancient, at least, as Turtullian who lived about two hundred Years after Christ, he makes mention of it more than once, and our Church does use it as an ancient Ceremony, no ways essential to Matrimony.  
2. Bowing at the name of Jesus is likewise very Ancient: The reason of it was, 1. To show our readiness to yield obedience and subjection to him as our Lord and King; to whom all power both in Heaven and Earth is given, and to whom every Knee must bow. Phil. 2.10. The Ancient Christians rather bowed at the naming of Jesus, then at the name of Christ, in opposition to the unbelieving Jews, who most of all Blasphemed that sweet and saving name of Jesus: which therefore they did endeavour the more highly to exalt. 3. To declare their certain belief of what the Apostle foretell, that at the name of jesus every Knee should bow, of things in Heaven, things in Earth, and things under the Earth, that all things should be subject unto him. Phil. 2.  
3. Kneeling at the Sacrament, our Church conceives to be the most humble and reverend posture, and therefore most suitable to so high and Heavenly a Mystery, especially it being Administered with a Prayer; yet we do not condemn the practice of other Churches, where this holy Sacrament is received sitting or standing; neither should they condemn us for Kneeling because Christ's Disciples received it in a Table gesture, to which we are no more bound then to the place, or time, in which they received it. An upper Room and after Supper as the learned Dr. Sanderson has evidently demonstrated.  
4. The Cross after Baptism is also a very Ancient Ceremony, which the Christians of the first ages, used in a courageous and undaunted opposition against the Heathens, and Jews, who scoffed and derided them for believing in, and Worshipping a Crucified God for their Saviour, who could not save himself. True 'tis in process of time, the Cross was abused, to gross Superstition, and therefore say some, it ought to be laid aside, as Ezekias abolished the Brazen Serpent when the people made it an Idol.  Dub. 
Much more ought the Cross to be taken away being abused to superstition, because 'twas but an humane invention, where as the Brazen Serpent, was set up by Gods own direction and command.  Firm. 
Very true, but then let Ezekias do it, not the people on their own heads, without the Authority of the King. However the use of an innocent Ceremony ought not to be taken away because of ' its abuse; and here it ought to be considered, whether it be better to use the Cross to put us in mind of our duty, not to be ashamed of Christ Crusified, as also of the courage and boldness of the Primitive Christians, who not withstanding the Scoffs and Reproaches of Infidels, would make such open profession of their Faith in Christ Crucified, as to use the sign of the Cross, not only in Baptism, but also upon sundry other occasions; or else, whether 'twere better to forbear the use of it, because it has been so much abused to Superstition: let the Suprem power judge which of these is fittest to be done, and determine accordingly either for the Negative or the Affirmative; and I believe every sober and peaceable Christian will esteem it his duty to submit unto such a determination.  Dub. 
But seeing these and other ceremonies have been and are a great scandal to tender consciences, and the occasions of many sh●rp contentions amongst Christians, agreeing in the substantials of Religion, and seeing that Conformists themselves confess them not to be in their own nature necessary, but only expedient for order and decency, were it not better they were laid aside, then continued is they are, the perpetual causes of discord and dissension amongst us?  Firm. 
And are order, decency, and uniformity (without which there will be neither ●ove, Peace, or Unity,) su●h inconsiderable nothings, that a few innocent Ceremonies must be utterly abolished to gratify the dogmatizing humours of those men, who esteem things in themselves indifferent, to be sinful and unlawful, which is s●●t Superstition? 'Tis indeed much to be lamented, that we should quarrel about Mint and Cummin, to the prejudice of more weighty and material duties, and the scandal of our Religion. But by reason of our innate and acquitted corruptions 'tis necessary that offences should come yet woe: be unto that man by whom they come; I know weakness and renderness of conscience is much pretended, and we ought to take heed how we offend any of Christ's little ones; but how can these men be reckoned in the number of weak or little ones, who seem to themselves so great, so strong and able, in the things of Religion? and for their tenderness of conscience, we appeal to their bloody civil Wars, 'tis well known by whom and how they were begun, and carry●d on, till at length they came up to the death of the King, though (I believe) very much against the intentions, and designs, of the most grave, and sober men, of that Party.  Dub. 
But really Sir, were it not more beseeming Christian prudence so far to condescend to our dissenting Brethren (who agree with us in the Doctrine of our Church) in taking away, at least some, of those Ceremonies which are more liable to exception, then to comply with the Superstitious Papists in the use of them?  Firm. 
I confess, some moderate men have thought so, especially since we are frustrated of of one main end, for which our first reformers retained them, which was to draw over the Papists into the Communion of our Church, which they did adhere unto, for the Ten first years of Queen Elizabeth, until they were interdicted by the Pope's bull, But seeing we are deprived of all hopes of that much desired issue and that by the cunning of Priests and Jesuits, stirring up and animating the Conformists and Non-conformists against each other, about these Ceremonies. Our differences amongst ourselves do daily increase and multiply; some wise and peaceable men have desired that the use of certain of those Ceremonies might be forborn at least for a time, which not withstanding, they are still continued. These peaceable men abhor the great sin of Separation & do continue their conformity to the rites of our Church; daily begging at the throne of Grace that the God of truth and peace would for his mercy ●ake so assist those powers which he has ordained that they may be instrumental for the establishing of truth and peace amongst us.  Dub. 
I like well of the temper of these men, and wish that their moderation were not only known unto, but practised by, all men; for certainly if the Spirit of love, peace, and meekness, did rule more in our peevish and froward hearts, we should enjoy a greater measure of Peace, Love, and Christian Charity, than these angry times have hither to been happy with.  
I return you my hearty thanks for that satisfaction which you have given me in those scruples which have much troubled me about the Government, Liturgy and Ceremonies of the Church of England, there is yet one thing behind, at which I have somewhat been scandallized, 'tis this: Your Church does receive persons who are notoriously profane in their lives, and grossly ignorant in the principls of Religion, to the Holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ: besides she tolerates at least Ministers, that are scandalous in their conversation, frequenters of Alehouses, not at all serious in Religion, show little sense of it in their discourses, Preaching or practices: men of little conscience, and of as little learning.  Firm. 
This accusation is most falls; whether it springs from spite or malice, or extreme ignorance, I know not: sure I am our Church orders that no su●h persons be admitted to the Holy Sacrament, th●t no such Ministers be permitted to officiate, that they are to be suspended once, and again, and if they do no not reform they are to be deprived; for the first you may see the Rubric before the Communion, and the 26. Canon. For the Second see Artic, 26. and Canon the 74. and 75. and Canon. 10. made 1640. which are so clear against the admitting of profane persons to to the Communion, or tollerating of scandalous Ministers without due Punishment, that whosoever chargeth these abuses upon our Church must be grossly ignorant or very malicious.  Dub. 
Yet we see that such profane persons are admitted to the Sacrament, as members of your Church, and such unworthy Ministers are allowed to officiate.  Firm. 
Such persons are no members of out Church, but rather the Synagoge of Satan, and that Minister who does admit, such persons natoriously profane, to the Holy Sacrament is a greater Nonconformist to the orders of the Church, than he that scruples at a Surplice, and those Churchwardens who neglect to present them, are guilty of Perjury, and aught to be debarred themselves from the Communion Can. 26.  Dub. 
'Tis evident that such Ministers are not Punished either by Admonition, Suspensition, or Deprivation.  Firm. 
This is not true in all places to my knowledge, where such Ministers or people escape unpunished, 'tis mostly by the fault of the Churchwardens and Sides-men, in not presenting them; for what Judge either Ecclesiastical or Civil, can punish offences that are not brought before him?  Dub. 
But many times offences and scandals have been presented, and the offender not punished; yea your Ecclesiastical Judges are more severe against those who are Non-conformists to the laws o● the Church, ●hen against those that are Non-conformists to the laws of God as profane irreligious wretches.  Firm. 
No m●n c●n excuse the personal abuses that are committed in any Court, Civil, or Ecclesiastical; all Court Officers never yet were, nor ever will be men of integrity, ●nd of unbias'd judgements, no question that many abuses which are committed by the Officers of Ecclesiastical Courts might be prevented if the Bishops would be sometimes personally present in their respective consistories as was intimated, they ought to be Canon. 11. made. 1640. If we must separate from a Church, that enjoins no Intolerable conditions for Communion with her because of some personal ●aul●s of those who are entrusted with her Government, we must turn Seekers, for where shall we find a Church, whose Officers are always all of them impartially just and upright?  Dub. 
I confess there is no good reason, we should separate from a Church, because of personal abuses in the Governors, or under Officers, where the Government in ' its constitution is not Faulty, neither the terms of Communion intolerable; but is there any reason that Nonconformists should be more sharply dealt with, then Debauched Profane Persons?  Firm. 
If we should compare Schism, Separation, Nonconformity, with Profaneness, it would not be easy to say, which is the greatest, or which is the least Sin, the first may be, Majoris culpae, the other Majoris infamiae, as Aquinas rightly judgeth, 1.2. q. 73. A. 5. of Carnal, and Spiritual Sins: those (as Pride, and Malice,) are greater Sins, but these (as Drunkenness, Fornication,) are more Scandalous.  
But to wave the comparison, and to give you freely my own sentiments in this particular. I do conceive that Debauchery, and Profaneness, aught to be more severely punished, then Negative Separation, and simple Nonconformity. My reasons are these 1. Every prudent Parent will be mo●e severe against a wicked Child, that continues under his Roof, professing obedience a●d subjection, then against that Child which has utterly forsaken his Father, and utterly abandoned his House, and Family. 2. The sins of Pro●●ness and Debauchery being wilful, (for Drunkards, and profane persons, do not ple●d ignorance and weakness,) are o●● more Malignant nature than sins of Ignoranc●▪ though it be such an ignorance which was not all together Invincible, but contracted by Pride, Pevishness, Interest, or Prejudice under which many Separatists, and Non-Conformists, are in Bondage and captivity. 3. The Lives and Conversations o● Debauched, and Profane Persons, who go under the name of Protestants, and Members of our Church, (though intruth they are not, but rather Limbs of Satan) are the greatest Reproach and Scandal to it. These are the men that furnish Shismaticks, and Non-Conformists with their best Arguments, which they urge against us. For what they object against our Church Government, Liturgy, or Ceremonies, is ●or the most part very frivolous, and there is no Quaker, Anabaptist, Independents, but m●kes the profaneness of the Episcopal party, the chief reason and ground of his separation.  Dub. 
This I confess to be true, from my own experience. Nothing wrought so much upon me to forsake the Church of England, as the wicked and ungodly lives of those which she receives into her Communion.  Firm. 
That was your error; for you cannot say th●t she receives any into her Communion, whom by her Rubric, and Canons she ●xcludes; and although through the laziness and connivance of Church Officers, or Governors, or both, many an ungodly person receives the Sacament, yet there is no just ground for a separation from the Church, which teaches nothing but what is Catholic and Apostolical: Only I confess, tha● in the exercise of Discipline, she comes short of the Primitive severity against obstinate sinners; yet the present Canons are so strict, that if they were duly observed, no openly wicked, or ungodly person, should be admitted to the Communion; which would be a great satisfaction (I am persuaded) to those that now separate from us.  Dub. 
But seeing the Primitive Discipline has been so long time wished for, above an Hundred years since, as appears by the Rubric before the Commination; how comes it to pass, that 'tis not restored? Shall we be still wishing and never acting or doing▪  Firm. 
Why it has not been restored, I know no other reason that is given, but this; The times will not bear it; why the ●●mes will not bear it, I know not, unless it be in respect of Se●taries, who cry down many ancient usages of the Church (which they do not understand) for Popery; an●, these men must not be offended, lest they be driven to an utter hatred, o● opposition to our Church; or else, which is more probable, such is the wickedness and profaneness of the times, that they will not endure the Primitive severity. When will that time come, that such strict discipline will be endured? The Church has been in expectation of it above this Hundred years, but still Schisms, and Sects, profaneness and wickedness, increase every day more and more. No question the times, as to Sects and Profaneness, (if that were a sufficient reason) are much more unfit to bear the ancient discipline, than they were when that wish was first made, and the longer it is disused, the more unfit they will be, which I wish our prudent governor's would take into their serious considerations.  Dub. 
Certainly a Strict Discipline, impartially executed, upon all transgressors of Gods Holy Laws, by sharp reproofs, severe admonitions, due Suspensations from the Sacrament, Excommunications, Penances according to the quality of the offence, would give a great check, to that impiety and wickedness which reigns so much in our Land; and take away much of the scandal, which is given by our mixed Communions, at which block of offence many have stumbled, and fell out of our Church into Conventicles, and Separate Congregations.  Firm. 
No question, a strict discipline would do much towards an h●ppy Reformation of manners in the Episcopal party, but as you have observed, the great scandal that is taken by the Non-conformists, at the profaneness and wickedness of that party, so I must tell you, that as great a scandal is given by them, to those who conform to the Church of England: though their lives and conversations being contrary to her Laws & Canons, they are no more members of our Church, than a glass eye, or wooden leg, are live parts of a man's body.  Dub. 
I do not see wherein the Non-conformists, whether Presbyterians or Independents, have given any just occasion of scandal to any, they being men that are very sober in their lives, and great professors of Religion, given much to Family-duties, to Prayer, to hearing of Sermons.  Firm. 
Hinc illae Lachrymae, Here lies the scandal which m●kes Religion stink in the nostrils of profane and wicked men, when they shall see that men professing holiness, should make no conscience of Disobedience, of Perjury, of Rebellion against, and at last of Murdering, their Liege Sovereign; a man upon whom his most malicious and critical enemies, could never charge any scanlous sin.  Dub. 
These indeed are very grievious sins, and much to be lamented, but surely you cannot charge them upon the generality of thesemen, but only upon some ambitious Hypocrites, that made Religion a stalking-horse, to bring about their devilish designs.  Firm. 
'Tis true that all the Nonconformists in England, were not in actual arms against the King, neither did they sit in the High Court of Injustice upon him, neither did they all, as natural agents, cut of his Head; but morally, that is, very sinfully and wickedly, they had their hands stained with that Royal blood: for whosoever did abet these sons of Belial in their Rebellions, Treasons, Murders, of their King and fellow Subjects, either by consenting to their Villainies, praying for their prosperity, praising God for their Victorious success, or by assisting them with their counsels, advice, free and voluntary Contributions, by writing and preaching up the justice of their cause, are guilty before God, os Treason, Murder, and Rebellion.  Dub. 
This censure is very severe, and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it. Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Commonwealth, much desired a reformation of them, and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament; whereupon (such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires, and great expectations in the minds of men, that are of short discourse) that these poor inconsiderable persons, were engaged against King and Country, before they had well weighed, That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions; That God has no need of the sinner: That we must not do evil, that good may come thereon. But I am persuaded that these seduced men do see their former errors, and are ●ruly penitent, abominating from their hearts, all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign, and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practices.  Firm. 
I much commend you for your Chari●y, and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion, acd are no● truly penitent, my hearty prayers are, that the Lord would be merciful unto them, and bless them, and show them the light of his countenance. My severe censure (as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it) was never intended against such; but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance, for their lifting up their hands against the Lord's Anointed; rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majesty that now sways the Royal Sceptre, if they hid a fair opportunity. Disobedience, is a long step to Rebellion; and is it not evident, that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient, more refractory against his Majesty's Laws Ecclesiastical, than those that lived before the late wars; who though they were Non-conformists, yet were they not Separatists, Brownists (as our present Non-conformists for the most part are:) some of them (Mr. as Ball in his Trial of the grounds of Separation, and others) smartly wri●ng against such Fanatics.  
And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men, they might see by a wonderful providence, the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertake. How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing: ho● miraculously was our Gracious Sovereign preserved, against all their Treasonable attempts, and brought to the Throne of his Fathers, with the greatest honour, most general expressions of love and rejoicing, that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects, and all this, without the spilling of one drop of blood. The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People, to keep this signal dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance, & not to ruin themselves by Atheism, Irreligion, Profaneness, or any enormous wickedness, for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols, upon wicked Kings, and ungodly people, as Sacred, and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest.  Dub. 
It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamesters, that having a bad game dealt, them desire the Cards might be shuffled again that they might have a better Stock, but I am persuaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said, and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoined.  Firm. 
You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies; as to the Covenant, though it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had died without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion, yet being it was peccant in all the four causes, the Efficient, Formal, Material, and Final, 'twas expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England, and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince; besides there seems to be a signal judgement in it, that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaliers out of their Livings, should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and rigid Imposers of it; for many of those were undone because they would not take it, these because they would not Renounce it.— Nec lex est justior ulla,— Quam necis artifices arte perire sua.  
'Tis Justice Law that he should feel the smart,  
Who was first Author of that cruel Art.  
I remember what Tacitus says of Cajus Vibius. Eò immitior quia toleraverat. And 'tis like that the Cavaliers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant, would when power was in their hands, make use of the Law of Retaliation, by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant; and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity, how ever 'tis a remarkable piece of Divine Providence, that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy, should suffer by it without mercy.  Dub. 
But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them, as to act by the Law of Retaliation, of Spite and Revenge, there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected.  Firm. 
We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite, as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it, as to make trial who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects, who not, for as 'twas said before, he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject. However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace, I heartily wish that 'twere not pressed upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit, agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion, that so we that have one Faith, one Baptism, one Hope, one Lord jesus Christ, one God the Father of all, might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace, which is both our duty and our interest, if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us, the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys.  Dub. 
'Tis not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among ourselves, would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State, who le●ve no Stone unturned to divide us that they might Reign over us and persuade us by their most cogent Arguments, (which are Gunpowder, Fire and Faggot, Bloody Massacres) to embrace their gross Superstition: and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation, while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better employed in devout Prayer, Holy Meditation, in Mortification of our Corruptions, in duties of Piety towards Almighty God, of Love, Mercy, and Charity one towards another.  
And now Sir, give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgements, for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks, and Bogs of Atheism, Infidelity, Schism, and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd, in whose Faith and Communion, Thou O Father of Mercies, Prince of Peace, and God of all Consolation, ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end, and that I may so continue, I beg your daily Prayers.  Firm. 
'Tis our great Christian duty, to Pray one for another. I shall not be wanting in the performance of it, for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholic Christianity, and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions, and supplications at the Throne of Grace. Blessed be the God of all power, and wisdom who has thus prospered my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your ways. I will add no more but this; that you be true to the Doctrine, Worship, Discipline of our Church, as they are contained in the Articles, Liturgy, Canons, and Rubrics of it, hold not any truth in Unrighteousness, let your practice show to the World, that you truly and heartily believe what you profess, be honest, just in your Dealings towards men, Temperate, and Sober towards yourself, serious, and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God, and whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are just, Holy, Lovely, of good report, Think on these things, Practise these things, make not the actions of men, the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times, humane Laws, your rule to walk by, but let the holy will and word of God, be the adequate measure of your Life, and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule, and Peace, and Mercy shall be upon you, as a true Israelite, and one of God's Peculiar People. Amen.  
FINIS.   

ERRATA.  
PAge 9 l. 11. read Dependent. p. 12. l. 10. for putting, r. putting. p. 21. for their r. there. p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not. p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes. p. 70 l. 26. ●. some of the Church. p. 83. l. 12. for suspicion r. superstition. p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse, is misplaced. p. 113. ●r. ●. ●ot ●ankfulness. p. 116.25. r. licence. p. 119. l. 22. r. clear. p. 121. l. 25. ●. who was of. p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated. p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well. p. 129. l. 13. r. styled. p. 132. l, 29. r. that sit at the Stern. p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end. p. 136. l. ●. r. throw away. p. 138. l. 19 r. by fancies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance. p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly. ibid. 2●. 1▪ suspension. p. 1●5. l. ●3. r. suspensions.