THE Catholic Representer. OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, For his Household and Chapel. 1687. THE CONTENTS. CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shown to Images of Christ, the Virgin Mary, etc. Whether the Papists Pray to Images? in Relation to a Passage of a Book, Entitled, A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome: and its Vindication. CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross, as is positively Asserted by a Protestant? with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism, after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism, in which this Calumny is published. CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers, or agreeable to them? The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant; being Notes upon a late Pamphlet, Entitled, The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation, not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers. CHAP. IU. The Form of the Catholic Church Established by Christ. No hopes of Salvation out of it. The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point, Good at this day. The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists, as These are said to do the Protestants. In reference to the Preface of Wholesome Advices from the B. V. etc. CHAP. V. The Papist, as to the Articles of his Belief, follows the Method prescribed by Christ, practised by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church. The Method is of Divine Institution, and more according to Reason than what Others follow. The Word Worship is Equivocal, and acknowledged so by St. Austin. CHAP. VI The Papist does not Believe, but upon most Convincing Reasons. Mysteries of Faith above Reason, not contrary to it. The Papist is not deprived of the Word of God, nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel. He does not Pray to the Cross, more than protestants Pray to their Bibles, or the Sacrament. Three Protestant Queries Answered. CHAP. VII. The Vulgar among the Papists not deprived of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it, than those of other Persuasions who Teach themselves. The Unlearned and Unstable wrest it to their own Destruction. CHAP. VIII. The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists, for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion, an Absurd Calumny. The Restraint is, That there may not be as many different Words of God, as there are Heads amongst them; and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend. CHAP. IX. The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person. No Possibility of meeting in One Faith, whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs. The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity. CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures, the Occasion of Divisions. Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides; but all ends in the Private Spirit. The Question started; Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reformed, before Luther? The Answers of some Protestant Divines. CHAP. XI. An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times, and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor; For the Satisfaction of those, who desire to know, whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer Times. CHAP. XII. Protestant Historians show us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine, but no Protestancy. The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practised in those Times; Therefore they were no Protestants. An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine. CHAP. XIII. The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times, no Protestants, but Papists. Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors, but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church. The Four First General Councils no Protestant's. CHAP. XIV. No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Father's Heads with Fears and Jealousies. No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery, at that Time professedly Taught and Practised, is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants. CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers, shown Injurious to Protestancy, from the Concessions of Protestant Writers. Luther, the Apostle of the Reformati●●, disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers, as not being for his purpose of Reforming. CHAP. XVI. A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy. The Art of Interpreting does Feats; it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity. THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented. SECOND PART. CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shown to Images of Christ, the Virgin Mary, etc. Whether the Papists pray to Images? in Relation to a Passage of a Book, Entitled, A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome: and its Vindication. THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints, he kisses them, uncovers his Head falls down before them, offers Incense, and Prays to them; and uses all such Postures of Worship, as he would do to the Person or Persons, thereby represented, if they were present: And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them, is accursed. Catech. truly repress. the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught▪ That the Images of Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and other Saints ought to be kept, and especially in Churches, and due Honour and Veneration given them; not for that any Divinity or Virtue is believed to be in them, or that any thing is to be asked of them, or any confidence to be placed in them, as was anciently done by the Heathens, who put their trust in Idols; but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images, is referred to the Prototype, or Thing represented by them: So that by the Images which he kisses, and before which he knelt, or puts off his hat, he adores Christ, and reuerences his Saints, whom the said Images represent. This is what He is taught, and are the Words of the Council of Trent. (Sess. 25.) And though some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice, by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude, and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeing Opinions of Divines; Yet in honest Practice he's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such, who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature, the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason. First, therefore, as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable, to set forth and adorn their Houses, with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family, of their old Friends, Benefactors, Governors, such as they esteem, and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour: So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason, that the House of God be set forth, with the Memories of such Eminent Persons, who by a singular Favour of Heaven, have been made chosen Vessels for the Propagation of the Religion there professed, or have sealed the Truth of the Doctrine there delivered, with the Effusion of their dearest Blood. This God himself did in a manner direct and approve, when filling Bezaleel and Aholi●b (Exod. 35. 31.) with the Spirit of God, in Wisdom, in Understanding, and in Knowledge, He Inspired them to make Two Cherubims of Gold (Exod. 37. 7.) on the side of the Mercy Seat; openly declaring by this Fact, the best Ornaments of his Seat and House here on Earth, to be the Images, Pictures, and Representations of those Divine Spirits, who are continually fing Praises to him before his Throne in Heaven. This he was pleased to suggest to the Jews, though so prone to Idolatry; and why should Christians be so Squeamish, as not to follow, when the Finger of God himself is giving Direction, not in any Ceremony particularly relating to that People; but in the Ornament of that Place, which by his own Order was consecrated to his Presence and Service? But 'tis not all Christians, even of Those Separated from the Communion of his Church, that wholly disallow of this Practice; there are several degrees amongst them as to this particular. The Lutheran Protestant's have their Altars and Church Walls set out with the Images and Pictures of the Apostles, of the Virgin Mary, of Christ upon the Cross, etc. Other Protestants who think the best temper of Religion to be in the Compounding Luther and Calvin together, dare not go so far; and therefore instead of Christ and his Apostles, expose only two Saints of the old Law, Moses and Aaron in their holy Places, admitting generally too the Judaical Ornament of the Ark, some Cberubims over their Church doors and Windows; but nothing of a Cbristian Representation, besides a Modern Sainted Queen. This is in such Churches, where the Clamours of the Crowd overrule; where nothing more of Cbrist must appear, for fear of offending tender Consciences with the looks and smell of Popery: whilst yet in other Places, as in some Cathedrals and Universities, where the People don't awe the Clergy, where the Charge of Popery is neglected, and the Walls and Windows not left as naked, as senseless Fears would have them, Cbrist and his Apostles stand with as much Veneration as Moses and Aaron elsewhere; and a Primitive Martyr is as becoming an Ornament, as Queen Elizabeth. And this seems so reasonable to some true Sons of this Church, that they think nothing more suitable to their Retirement, where they design to converse with Heaven than a Crucifix: th● this Practice some think fit to wave, for fear of raising Jealousies in their Family, and becoming the talk of the Neighbourhood. And this which he sees thus approved by many, and practised by some Protestants, he owns and declares for the allowed and established Practice of his Church. So that to be a Papist in this particular, is nothing more, than to think the Pictures of Christ, of his Apostles and Saints to be as ornamental in a Cbristian House, as others of Relations, Benefactors, or Emperors, etc. And not to join hands with him, who broke in pieces the Image of Christ upon the Cross, while he left those of the Two Thiefs, stand untouched. 'Tis to look upon the Cross or Crucifix as proper in a Church, to show that that Place and Congregation belongs to Christ; as the Lion and the Unicorn or King's Arms, to Intimate that they own the King, as Supreme Governor. 'Tis to esteem the Apostles and Martyrs as fit to have place there, for preaching the Gospel there delivered, and ratifying it with their Blood; as Moses and Aaron for publishing the Commandments; or as Queen Elizabeth for establishing the Religion by her Statutes. As he is a Papist therefore he cannot have a good Opinion of those▪ who love all sorts of Pictures, whether of Relations, Landscapes, Monsters, Dogs or Devils; but can brook nothing of Christ or his Mother: who with Satisfaction enough can Admit of Mahomet, Luther, Calvin, a suffering Russel, or Sidney, The Saviour of the Nation, any Profane or Immodest Picture whatsoever; but presently turn Stomach at the sight of the World's Redeemer upon the Cross, at any Passage of Christ's Passion, or sacred Mystery of our Religion represented in Colours. No better Christians can he esteem those who cannot endure to be without their Signet, to show their Family: who cannot see their Shops or Sign-Posts without the Arms of the Company they are Free of: who must have their Scutcheon over their Hall doors, to publish the Corporation they belong to: and yet can allow of nothing to show they are Christians: who can see Crosses on their Houses and Walls both private and public, on their Signs, Barges, their Ships, and Colours, as often as you will, to speak them belonging to Citizens: but a Cross to declare themselves Christians, they repute as intolerable. These he cannot much esteem for their Christianity as to this Point, since he sees they are ashamed of nothing, but what is to show them to be Christians. Secondly, as to what concerns the Respect and Veneration He shows to Sacred Images of Christ, his Mother, or Apostles, etc. he does nothing but what Nature and Reason oblige him too: and to explicate what this is, he needs no more than declare, that as a Loyal Wife, who has a tender Love and sincere Respect for her Husband, cannot choose, from the pressing Impulse of innocent Nature, but have a Love and Respect for his Picture, and expresses that Love by kissing it, and hanging it at her Breast: in the same manner, He having a hearty Love and true Honour in his Soul for his Blessed Redeemer, Apostles and Martyrs of Christ, cannot hinder the irresistible force of Nature, from having a Respect and Honour for their Pictures, and this same Respect he expresses by kissing them, placing them in his Oratory the Church, etc. Again, as Christians Honour and Respect the Bible above all other Books; and though it be made of nothing but Paper, Ink, Leather, Pasteboard, like all other Volumes; yet because the Strokes of that Ink are so ordered and joined in that Paper, that they Signify and Represent to him the Doctrine and Passion of Christ, etc. for this Reason they cannot choose but Love and Respect and Honour this Book; and if in reading and perusing it, any more devout than the rest, express these Sentiments of their Souls by kissing it, never taking it into their Hands, but with an awful Reverence, with their Heads uncovered, and on their bended knees: they do nothing but to the Honour, and Glory of God, and what may, without Superstition, or Suspicion of giving Idolatrous Worship to the Paper or Ink of that Book, be paid to that Sacred Volume, and what has been the Practice of many holy Christians and Saints. Upon the same Account, and for the same Reason, though the Pictures of Christ etc. are nothing but Ink and Paper, like others; yet because the Strokes of that Ink are so ordered and drawn there, that they Signify and Represent to him Christ's Nativity, his Scourging at the Pillar, or Passion on the Cross etc. they are to him like a Chapter of the Bible itself, informing him of the same Sacred Mystery, teaching him the same Divine Truth, and upon this Consideration, are to him a part of God's holy Word, without any difference from that Chapter of the Bible, which treats of that Mystery, besides in the different Fashion of the Strokes and manner of laying on the Ink. And if in the Contemplation and Consideration of these Divine Truths and Sacred Mysteries thus Represented to him, he stands with his Head uncovered, or on his knees, he does it only to express the Love and Honour, which at that time inflame his heart towards God, and the Veneration which he has for Christ in those endearing Passages: And in these Actions and Postures he does no more make a God of, or give Idolatrous Worship to the Paper, Ink, or Colours of those Pictures, or the Material Images; than he makes a God of the Bible, when in taking an Oath, he stands with his Head uncovered and kisses it, or reads it on his knees; or gives Idolatrous Worship to a Preacher, when he hears him deliver God's Word with his Headbare. Let Divines therefore wrangle to the World's end, and dispute, whether this Honour, this Reverence and Respect shown to the Bible, to a Preachers Sermon, to Pictures or Images, be the same, or distinct from what is given to the Things Represented; whether it terminates on them absolutely after an Inferior manner, or only relatively, and so forth. This they may go on with for the exercise of their Wits and Tongues; and others may scatter these Notions amongst the Crowd for the Confusion of Mankind, and the Disturbance of weak Brains: but for his part, he's little concerned with these Debates. He's certain he believes in, Worships and Adores only One God, who Created and Redeemed him, and by whose Mercy and Grace he expects Salvation: and he confesses, that all Pictures, Images, etc. relating to Him or his Saints, are nothing more than Paper, Colours, Wood, Stone. etc. mere Creatures not to be confided in. Yet as long as he sees, that Christians full of Devotion and Zeal can kneel down before a piece of Bread, for its being a Figure or a Representative Commemoration of Christ, his Goodness and Passion; and yet to the Honour, and Glory of God. As long as he sees Men full of Scorn and Rage can show their Malice to a great Prelate, by exposing his Effigies to the contemptuous Shouts of the Rabble, carrying it in a mock-Procession, and committing it to the flames; and this without having it decided, whether it be the same Dishonour shown to the Image and to the Person: and whether it be the same Respect and Reverence given to the Sacramental Figure and to Christ, or a different: As long as he sees this, he cannot doubt to Honour and Reverence Christ before an Image relating to him; notwithstanding the Speculative Scruple, whether it be the same, or a distinct Veneration given to God and to the Image. 'Tis a sufficient satisfaction to him, that all the Love, Respect, Honour or Veneration he has for the Bible, for a Sermon, for a Picture or Image of Christ, etc. is wholly for the Sake, the Love and Honour he bears to Christ; and howsoever he expresses it, whether by kissing these Commemorative Signs, by Bowing, by Kneeling, by Incensing, etc. yet as long as these are only so many different ways, or speaking Testimonies of the affection of his Soul towards God (as God is his Witness who sees his heart) he can have no scruple in performing them: no more than others, who being sensible of a diflerent motion in their Souls towards Queen Mary, and her Sister Queen Elizabeth, express the Love, the Respect and Honour they have for the latter, by placing her Picture in their Churches, by keeping her Day in a certain Veneration, by ringing of Bells, burning Candles, lighting Bonfires, all which are nothing but so much Street-incense offered up to her Honour and Memory. For what reason can he have, to think that to be idolatrous, when done to the Honour of God, which he sees thus without scruple, or fear of Idolatry performed to a Queen, no otherwise Canonised, but by the Sainting breath of the Rabble? This then is what he does as to Sacred Images, and though his Adversaries, by calling this worshipping, adoring, falling down to Images, can presently raise a Notion of Idolatry in their unthinking Auditory: yet 'tis upon such Principles, that their Dissenting Brethren pursuing the same Reasonings a little farther, draw them under the same Infamy, throwing the Coat over their Heads, which they had cut out for others Shoulders. But now as for Praying to Images, 'tis what the utterly detests, as a thing contrary to all Reason and Religion. The Council of Trent expressly declares to all of his Communion, that no Virtue or Divinity is to be believed to be in Images, nothing is to be asked of them, nor confidence to be placed in them. What praying then can there be to Images, if nothing be to be asked of them? For his part, he could as well pray to the Monument, to the Statues of the Kings in the Exchange, or to the Giants in Guild-ball, as to the Image of the Greatest Saint in Heaven; and thinks 'twould be as much to the purpose: and vet if the True-representing Catechism is to be heard, the Papists do not only kiss the Images of Christ and his Saints, but they likewise Pray to them. God deliver him from such true. Representing. The Answer to The Papists Misrepresented &c. (p. 17) is so just to the Papists, as to grant, that They do not absolutely Pray to Images; this, in his opinion, being a charge too absurd, to be urged against the most brutish of Heathens. And afterwards (p. 22.) when he comes to speak of Praying to Images, he tells you of a Sense in which it may be taken (that is, If the world be so pleased to take it so) and 'tis that Praying to Images shall signify, not an oblation of Prayers to Christ's Image, so as to expect to be heard by the Image: but so as to expect to be rather heard by Christ himself, for praying to him by his Image. So that praying to Images, comes to be the same, as praying to Christ by his Image, and afterwards, within a line or two is nothing but praying where Images are, or before Images. Thus he does not positively charge the Papists with praying to Images; but only endeavours to prove it in some sense; and then honestly and fairly explicates what he means by those words; and at last does not impute it as a Doctrine, but only as a consequence, that he thinks may be deduced from some Practice of theirs, as may be seen, (p. 22.) now mentioned. But now comes the Faithful-representing Catechism, and without mincing it at all, he assures all such as will be catechised, that the Papists Pray to Images, and this positively, absolutely, without explaining any sense, in which those words are to be taken: not a Word for the preventing any Mistake in his Readers: if they'll think the Papists so sottish, as to Pray to Stocks and Stones, and expect relief from those Wooden Mediators, they may do it for all his true representing: Such Christian Calumny he'll help to transfuse into the Heads of the Ignorant: but not a Syllable to obviate the working of such Poison. 'Tis true, he tells his Reader, that the Honour given by Papists to Images, is referred to the Persons Represented by them: but no mention of what is meant by Praying to Images: that he leaves to the discretion of every one, that can afford to lay out sixpence upon a Catechism against Popery. And now at last in his Vindication of this passage, he tells ye, he did not intend to insinuate by those Words, as if the Papists did Pray to Images absolutely, so as to expect to be heard by the Images, but so as to expect to be heard by Christ, for praying to him by his Image, in the sense 'twas taken above, in the Answer to the Papists Misrepresented, etc. And here he confidently affirms, that from the two Answers in his Catechism, viz. to Quest. 44. and 45. laid together, or either of them entire, it manifestly appears what he intended by that charge. But I must ask him; To whom does this manifestly appear? Is he assured, that all the zealous Controvertists of Spittle-fields and Wapping will dive into this subtlety, and understand his meaning, though there be not one word in either of the two Answers to explicate it? Does he think those Favourers of Popery, will lay things together, to take off from the blackness of the Charge, which is absolute and positive in the Indictment? He that leaves the Papists, their Credit and their Doctrine, to the favour and mercy of such a Jury, must certainly be very willing to hear Oats' Tune of eighty one played over again. No, when Doctors and Divines charge bluntly and downright, 'tis not to be expected from the Crowd to make a favourable Interpretation. But at last the Catechist in his Postscript will prove, that the Papists do in some manner Pray to Images: His Argument is thus; Prayer is to the Object to which the Veneration is to be given; but the Veneration, is to be given to the Image, as representing; and so is the Prayer. A piece of Sophistry, by which he may prove (for the next Edition of his Catechism) that the Papists Pray to the Bible, as well as to Images; they having a Veneration for both the one and the other. And if he can but once make out, that People Pray to every thing, to which they give a Veneration; will not this serve to prove, that every one, who going into Westminster Abby takes off his Hat, does, by paying that Veneration, in some manner ●ray to the Walls? Will it not be the same thing to Petition the Chair of State, as to make a Reverence to it: and to ●ray to every Dish of Meat that goes to the King's Table, Pap. not Misrep. by Prot. p. 5. Answ. to Pap. Prot. p. 17. as to bow to it? But suppose he could in any sense have proved Praying to Images against the Papists by some better Argument than this, which is not fit to lie under a University-threshold: yet would this be true Representing to insert this Consequence of his into the Character of a Papist? It has been decided long ago by his own Party, that he that puts the Interpretations and Consequences of men's Doctrines and Practices into their Character, is a Proper Misrepresenter: Does not the Catechist then justly fall under this Infamy, who in giving an account of the Papists Doctrine and Practices, instead of such a Doctrine or Practice, inserts a Consequence of his own into their Character? And yet this Catechism in the Title, is the truly representing Catechism. Again, he says he has composed this Catechism out of the Papists Pref. own Writings, out of their own approved Authors and Councils; and by this his Reader is to understand, that every Doctrine and Practice he there imputes to the Papists, is what their own Authors and Councils expressly own and profess: Now to make good this pretext, and justify himself, he is obliged to point out to some of the Papists approved Authors and Councils, which do acknowledge and declare this Point of Praying to Images to be the received Doctrine and Practice of their Church, if not absolutely, at least in that sense in which he has explicated himself in his Vindication. For if he does not do this, he has most unchristianly wronged the Papists, in imputing to them a Doctrine and Practice pretendedly according to their most received Authors, but no where found in such Authors or Councils, being only a misinterpretation of his own, passed upon the World for a Popish Doctrine: and this will most unluckily draw him into the number of Misrepresenters. Lastly, in his Answer 10 Q. 44, having declared to his Reader, that the Papists kiss the Images of Christ, fall down before them; offer Catec. p. 49. Incense and Pray to them, etc. he concludes thus: And whosoever doth think otherwise, is accursed: For this citing the Council of Trent, Sess. 25. & Catech. Rom. By which he insinuates into his Reader, that not only kissing Images of Christ, etc. but likewise Praying to them is prescribed by the Council of Trent, and the Catechism ad Parochos, and that whosoever shall think otherwise, viz. that Images ought not to be kissed, nor prayed to, is cast out of the Communion of that Church, and declared Accursed. This is what every Reader must understand from that passage. And indeed, who can apprehend it otherwise, especially finding it thus positively asserted in a Book, which in the very first leaf is recommended as a Catechism Faithfully drawn out of the allowed Writings of the Church of Rome: And when the Author in the Preface gives this assurance, that the Quotations are true, he having again and again examined them? And yet whosoever shall be so curious, as to examine the said Council of Trent, and Roman Catechism, will not find in the places cited, nor even throughout the Books, so much as one syllable concerning Praying to Images: much less any Curse pronounced against those who shall think otherwise. The Council indeed Anathematizes such, who teach contrary to what has been shown, in the beginning of this Paper, to be the sense of the Fath●rs there assembled, touching the Veneration due to the Images of Christ: but no mention there of Praying to Images in any sense whatsoever. And is it not strange now, that when such things as these are charged upon the Papists, and published to the world for their Doctrine, it is taken ill of them, when they disclaim all such Tenets? 'tis called Postscr. a Clamour and a Noise when they justify themselves in Protesting against such false Imputations: And if they say, they are foully Misrepresented, this draws out a Vindication in a Postscript, to sink the dirt in deeper. For his part, 'tis no satisfaction to him, to be engaged in Disputes or Quarrels: But yet he confesses, he can no more forbear crying out, when he sees Dirt unworthily thrown at his Religion, than if it were cast in the Face of his Dearest Relations, his Father or Mother: and therefore he must needs say, that if he finds any one dressing up a Papist to the Multitude as a Monster, and showing his Horns and cloven Foot to the Crowds, he cannot stand by in silence, but will cry out, A Cheat, A Cheat; with endeavours to find out, who the cloven Foot belongs to. But however, he could heartily wish, there were no occasion for this: that there were more Charity in the World, and when Men speak of their Neighbour's Faith and Religion, that they would be truly serious; and not think it a less Crime to cast an Aspersion in this particular, than in other Concerns of their Good Name and Reputation; he that wrongfully defames him for a Thief, only injures his Person, and at most his Family: But he that casts an Infamy upon his Religion, wrongs Millions; and abuses the Multitude into a false Persuasion, that upon this score, 'tis now more a Christians Duty to hate, than to love one another. The Divisions and Animosities amongst Christians at this day are but a sad Spectacle; And God knows how far the Passionate Exaggerations, and Rash Charges upon others Faith and Religion have been an Encouragement to these Evils. He heartily wishes there were some Moderation in this Particular: It being no Commendation to▪ Christianity, that her Members like the Cannibals of America, have no other way of Thriving, than by Devouring each other; nor a good Argument of the Truth of any Persuasion, because they can make the greater Devil of their Neighbour. But the Catechist in his Postscript will convince his Reader, that the Papists Pray to Images: For why (says he) do they direct their Prayers to them? As they do to the Cross, which they Salute after this manner: Hail, O Cross, our only Hope, etc. But this shall be the Subject of our Next. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented. SECOND PART. CHAP. II. Whether Papists pray directly to the Cross, as is positively asserted by a Protestant? with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism, after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism, in which this Calumny is published. THe Papist Misrepresented- does not only ascribe peculiar Virtues to the Cross, praying that God would make the wood of the Cross to be the stability of Faith, an increase of Good Works, the Redemption of Souls, as the Pontifical has it (in Bened. nov. Cru.) But they Pray directly to it, saluting the Cross after this manner: Hail, O Cross, our only Hope, in this time of the Passion. Increase Grace in the Godly, and blot out the Sins of the Guilty: in which very words they directly pray to it, in the Hymn of the Passion, which is in the Public Office of their Church. Catech. true. repres. Q. 46. & Posts●r. THe Papist Represented confesses and believes God to be the Fountain of all Goodness, to be the Centre of all Virtue, Power and Wisdom; and that there is no Good whatsoever, whether Spiritual or Temporal, can arrive to him, but what is to come immediately from God the Father, through the Merits and Passion of Jesus Christ his only Son, Our Redeemer Blessed for ever more, in the Virtue of the Holy Ghost the Comforter. Whatsoever Good therefore he desires, whether the Stability of Faith, Increase of good Works, or the Redemption of his Soul, etc. he can hope to obtain from no other, than from God, the Author of all Good Gifts, and Father of Mercies. This Truth he owns and professes, and believes himself bound rather to lose his Life, than any ways contradict or deny it: it being the very Doctrine delivered by St. James in his Epistle, c. 1. v. 17. that Every good gift, and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights. And having thus acknowledged, that in God is infinitely treasured up all that can be called Good, he likewise confesses, that Man can be no otherwise partaker of any of these Blessings, but according to the Pleasure and Ordinance of this infinite Being, who essentially comprehends them all: so that no Creature whatsoever, whether in Earth or in Heaven, though the greatest Angel or Saint, has power of themselves to bestow any of these Gifts upon Man; they being wholly in the disposure of Him who is their Author, and not to be communicated to any, but as He shall order and appoint. The Principal Means, by which these Heavenly Blessings are derived to the World, is the Passion of Christ. And the Way ordained for Christians to apply to themselves the Blessings thus purchased by our Redeemer, is the Doing the Will of Heaven, and Prayer. By these he has access to that Heavenly Treasure, and is made partaker of that rich store, without which he can be nothing but eternally miserable. Whensoever therefore he desires Increase of Grace, Forgiveness of Sins, or any other Divine Benefit from the Hand of God, he endeavours to compose his Life and Actions according to the Prescript of the Commandments and Will of Heaven, and raises his Heart and Soul by Prayer, to petition assistance, and a supply of his necessities from the Divine Throne. And because he is taught from Scripture, that God hears the Prayer of the Righteous, he therefore desires sometimes the Just on Earth, Prov. 15. 29. sometimes those in Heaven, to unite in Prayer, to be joynt-petitioners with him to the Seat of the Divine Majesty, that so he may find more acceptance in the sight of God, and obtain his desires through the Merits and Passion of Him who died for all. But to think that he prays to the Cross, or from any material Crucifix expects relief either for Body or Soul, is only to render him more sottish than the worst of Heathens, and in one extravagancy to make him outdo all the Frenzies of Bedlam. He confesses it evident to the least glimpse of Reason, that a piece of Wood or Stone fashioned into a Cross, is no more capable of hearing his prayers, or praying for him, or granting his Requests, than when it lay regardless upon the ground without either shape or figure: And that if his Religion did either teach or practise such stupid Idolatry, as praying to a piece of Wood, etc. he could no more be any longer of her Communion, than he could sacrifice to Molech, or with the Zidonians and Ammonites pray to Ashtoroth, or Milcom. He does not deny, but in one of the Hymns used in his Church, are found these words: Hail, O Cross, our only Hope! In this time of the Passion, increase Righteousness in the Just, and blot out the Sins of the Guilty. And these same words, as likewise the whole Hymn are found in St. Ambrose's Works, though composed, by that Learned Bishop Vincentius Fortunatus, who lived in the fifth Age, to be sung on Passion Sunday, upon which day it is still used by his Church, as part of that days Solemnity. And if for these words of this Prelate (whose Name is so often celebrated by Pious and Learned Men) and his whole Church, must be blackened with the Infamy of Idolatry, and praying directly to the Cross, then stand clear Paul, have a care chrysostom, beware, O Creed; and you Common-prayer-Book look to your self: for if there be but any that will weigh you in this Scale; if you have but a Grave Catechist, that according to this Rule, will Faithfully represent you; you'll be infallibly set out for nothing better, than Professors of Folly and Nonsense, Bundles of Absurdities and Profaneness, sitter for the diversion of Drolling Atheists, than the Direction of any Christian Congregation. 'Tis but exposing some sentences and expressions found in them, in the rigid and literal sense of the words, to the Multitude, and they'll presently lose all their Authority of being Divine, and become as Ridiculous as Popery, which by these true-representing Arts has been made so infamous by its Adversaries. As now, if after the Method of this Faithful Catechism, the Question should be thus asked concerning St. Paul: Quest. What regard had St. Paul for the material Cross? A. He reverenced it above all things in Heaven and Earth: expressly owning it, for the only Subject of his Glory: God forbid (says he, Gal. 6. 14.) that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jefus Christ. Again, He looked upon the Wood of the Cross, as that which had purchased Man's Reconciliation to God: as he directly confesses Ephes. 2. 16. where he says, Man was Reconciled unto God in one body by the Cross. Would not the urging these expressions of St. Paul, in the rigid sense of the Words, as they signify the material Wood of the Cross, make him change his Colour in the Eyes of the Multitude, and render him more like an Infidel, than an Apostle of Jesus Christ; for thus placing his Glory and Man's Reconciliation in a piece of Wood? And if these same measures are applied to St. Chrysostom and other Fathers, who flourished in the time of the Church's Purity, will not they all appear disfigured with the horror of Superstition and Idolatry, and carry the most infamous Marks of Popery in the very face of them? St. Chrisostom says expressly, that the Cross has broken the Gates of Hell, has opened the Passage into Heaven, has made Paradise again accessible, and confounded the power of Satan: and a little before, that every thing that contributes to our Salvation, receives its perfection from the Cross. St. Ephrem in almost the same words thus celebrates the Cross. It has triumphed, says he, over death, 'tis the Hope of true Believers, the Light of the World, the Key of Paradise, the Overthrow of Heresies, the Help of Religious Men, the Establishment of Faith, a great and secure Protection, and the perpetual Glory of good Christians for ever. Now let but these words of these Eminent and Primitive Christians be thrown amongst the Crowds, with an innuendo, as if spoken merely of the material Cross, and that they attributed so many excellencies to a piece of Wood; what scandals would immediately follow? How many contempts and scornful reproaches would these Great Fathers receive from the presuming Multitude? And how many compassionate Moans would the more Pitying Sex sigh out upon the darkness of that Age? This would certainly have followed, had it been the Fate of these Primitive Christians to have fallen into True-representing Protestant hands; or were there any faithful Catechism to have made Questions and Answers upon their Faith and Practice. But certainly 'tis not only the part of a Faithful Catechism, that pretends to give a true account of men's Belief and Practice, to lay down some words some expressions, taken out of their Hymns, their Epistles, their Books, and then leave them to the discretion of every undiscerning or prejudiced Reader, to interpret as they please: and more especially, it ought not to have pointed out to a false and mistaken sense, which, however literal, is yet contrary to the meaning of those, whose Doctrine it pretends to deliver. No, this is not doing faithfully, 'tis not true-representing. If it would have made good its Title in the Frontispiece, it should, besides relating the bare words, have given a faithful account of the sense, in which Catholics understand those words. And therefore, as to do right to St. Paul, St. Chrysostom, St. Ephrem, etc. besides giving a bare Narrative of their expressions, it ought to be explicated to the people, that in all those high Encomiums, of infinite and divine Perfections and Effects attributed to the Cross; they do not understand the mere Material Cross or piece of Wood; but the Belief in the Mystery of the Cross, the Passion of the Son of God, or Christ Crucified: which are all signified and represented by the Cross. So to represent truly the Practice of Catholics, 'tis not sufficient to set down the bare words of the Hymn▪ but likewise their meaning ought to have been proposed; that with St. Paul, St. Chrysostom, St. Ephrem, etc. they do not understand barely the Material Cross, but Christ crucified; and that in that Holy time of the Passion; in which that Hymn is sung, their whole Devotion and Prayers are directed to Him, who being born for us Men, and our Salvation, made peace through Coloss. 1. 10. the Blood of his Cross. So that the meaning of Catholics in saying that Hymn, is; Hail, O Christ, our only Hope! In this time of the Passion, increase Righteousness in the Just, etc. This had been true-representing indeed; but to pretend to faithful representing, and then to set down only Words, without their due Sense and Meaning, is to represent by halves; it has more of deceiving in it, then representing; having little of truth in it, besides in Brags and Pretences. This certainly is so insincere a Method, that if allowed, there needs no more to blast the Credit and Reputation even os Truth itself: and 'tis very observable, that there is scarce an Argument taken up by Protestants or any Means used by them, for the defeating of Popery, or making it Ridiculous to the Multitude, but the same, if followed on, will infallibly ruin all Religion, and turn Christianity out of the World; Protestancy itself is not proof against its own weapons; but that which brought it into the World, will be certainly its overthrow with as many, as have but sense enough to put it to the Trial. There may be occasion hereafter of evidencing this in many Particulars; at present 'twill be sufficient to let the impartial Reader see, how far this one Argument taken up by the Faithful Catechist, to prove the Papists so stupid, as to pray directly to a piece of Wood, will contribute to the ruin of the Christian Faith, and even of Protestancy itself, if an Atheist or Heathen should take it out of his hands, and use it to the best advantage of his Cause. The Argument is this; That it must be supposed sufficiently proved against Catholics, that they pray directly to the Material Cross, because there are some words in a Hymn of their Church, which if taken in their literal and rigid sense, import a direct praying to it. Now let but some honest Heathen turn a True-representing Catechism-maker, and following exactly this Copy set before him, see whether in faithfully describing the Doctrines and Practices of Protestants according to this Rule, he cannot do as much for them, that is, set them out as Absurd and Ridiculous, as they have done for the Church of Rome. And to follow the method exactly, he must go by Questions and Answers. We must suppose therefore, that the Title of his Book is thus; A Catechism truly representing the Doctrines and Practices of Protestants, faithfully drawn out of their own Bible and approved Liturgy: And that thus He begins: Q. What God do the Protestants worship and serve? A. They worship a God, which they believe to have Hands; as they expressly own in their Creed; where they daily make this profession. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the Right hand of the Father. And in Ps. 138. 7. they thus address themselves to their God: Thou shalt stre●ch fourth thine Hand against the wrath of mine enemies; and thy Right Ha●d shall save me. 2. They believe him to have Ears: as Psal. 17. 6. where they cry out to him: O God, incline thine Ear, unto me, and hear my speech: And ib. vers. 1. O Lord, attend unto my Cry give ear unto my Prayer. 3. They believe him to have Eyes, Nostrils and Mouth; as Psal. 17. 2. where praying to God, they say: Let thine Eyes behold the things that are equal. And Psal. 18. 8. they thus describe him: There went up a Smoke out of his Nostri's, and Nostri's out of his Mouth. Q. Where do they believe the Seat of their God to be? A. In Heaven, which they believe to be a place upon some Hill, as they pro●ess, Psal. 3. 4. I cried unto the Lord with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy Hill. And Psal. 24. 3. Who shall ascend into the Hill of the Lord? And again, Psal. 43. 3. Let them bring me unto thy Holy Hill. Q. What Creatures shall be saved; or dwell with God for ever upon this Hill? A. All Creatures shall be saved both Man and Beasts, as they expressly believe, Ps. 36. 7. Thou, Lord, shalt save both Man and Beast, as the Psalms have it in the Common-prayer. And Revel. c. 4. 6. Round about the throne (of God) were four Beasts. And chap. 5. 6. In the midst of the throne, and of the four Beasts; and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb. And vers. 8, the four Beasts, and four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb. Q. Whom do Protestants address themselves to, in the Solemn and Public Service of their Church? A. They address themselves directly to the Saints, as Psal. 30. 4. Sing unto the Lord (O ye Saints of his) and give thanks. 2. To the Angels, Psal. 148. 2. Praise ye him all his Angels. 3. To the Sun and Moon, Beasts, Mountains, etc. Psal. 148. 3. Praise ye him Sun and Moon, vers. 9 Mountains and all Hills. vers. 10. Beasts and all cattle. Q In what manner do Protestants perform their Public Devotion and Service to God? A. In Lying, Cursing and scandalously defaming one another. Q. How in lying? A. By having such things in their public Service to be said by all, which scarce any one of them can say with truth: as Psal. 119. 62. At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee. Psal 6. 6. I am weary with my groaning, all the night make I my bed to swim, I water my Couch with my tears. Psal. 18. 21. I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God. Psal. 34. 1. I will bless the Lord at all times; his Praise shall continually be in my mouth. Psal. 35. 13. But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humblid▪ myself with fasting. Psal. 109. 24. My knees are weak with fasting. Psal. 101. 3. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes. Vers. 4. A froward heart shall depart from me, I will not know a wicked person. Vers. 5. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off. Vers. 7. He that worketh deceit, shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies, shall not tarry in my sight. Psal. 113. 4. The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs. These and many more such like Asseverations, Promises and Protestations they make in their Devotions; and yet how few of them (if any) without defying their own Consciences and Truth? Q. How by Cursing? A. In direful Imprecations, and fearful wishes imploring the worst of evils against their Neighbour: as Psal. 109. 6. where they thus pray to God: Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand; when he shall be judged, let him be condemned, and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Let his children he fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: Let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. Let the Extortioner catch all that he hath, and let the Strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him, neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children etc. can there be more terrible Wishes, more direful Imprecations than these? Q. How by defaming one another? A. By charging one another with the most infamous of Crimes in the heat of their Devotions: as in the recital of Ps. 50. where the Clerk thus begins, vers. 18. accusing the Minister; When thou sawest a thief, than thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with Adulterers. Then the Minister accuses the Clerk; Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. Then the Clerk falls upon the Minister again: Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother, and slanderest thine own Mothers Son. Misrcp. Hold, hold, Representer whether will you run? you are even turning Christianity into a piece of Buffonery, and making a Drol of all Religion. Represent. You are altogether in the right on't. And this is what I told you in the beginning; that there's no making use of a Protestant Argument, which serves that Party, for the ridiculing of Popery, but the same if followed on, will as certainly undermine the Truth of the whole Gospel, and cut the Sinews of all Religion. This Heathen-Catechist has not gone one tittle beyond the Copy set him in the True-representing Catechism, and you see how fearfully it begins to work. The citation of three or four words out of a Hymn, was Argument enough to lay the Papists flat for so many stupid Sots: and has any thing been here asserted against the Protestants, but what has been supported by as plain and express words, as those of the Popish hymn? If in the one case therefore this way of proving does not hold, how comes it to be so conclusive in the other? Misrepresent, The Words, 'tis true, of the Scripture cited in this Mock-Catechism, are as plain and express as can be: but they are here made use of in a sense never intended by those Divine Penmen, the Authors of Sacred Writ, who though they have the very words cited, yet never meant them, as here they are brought, in their literal and rigid sense; but some of them Figuratively, some of them in Conformity to our Apprehensions, some of them in the Person of another, etc. and begin thus understood, they make no reflection upon Protestancy or Christanity, but are truly edifying. Repres. This is honestly said: and if you could but do so in any others case besides your own; there would be more peace in this Nation, and above half the Devils, that disturb its quiet, would be laid. Had the True-representing Catechism, but thus impartially interpreted the words of the Hymn above mentioned, and given the true sense of it, he had never been set upon the File of Misrepresenters. But to charge bluntly an absurdity upon the Papists, and to pretend to prove it against them from their own plain words, without discovering their meaning; is to do the same as our Heathen-Catechist has performed to the life, defaming Christianity from the express words of Scripture, and both alike by Misrepresenting. Would you, and such whose thriving depends much upon your Art, see to give every thing its true weight and sense, and show the right side outward of every thing you expose to the admiring Crowds; this sincere and honest dealing would much more recommend you to well meaning people, than the more fashionable way of blackening and ridiculing your Neighbours. But an ill habit is not easily laid by. 'Tis matter of some Admiration to me to consider, how uneven your Proceedings are in this kind; how readily you can discover a speech to be figurative, when that sense best serves your own turn: And how in other occasions, nothing of Figure can be found, when the literal sense will serve to cast an infamy upon the Papists. The Fathers in their Works do very frequently address themselves to the Martyrs and Saints in Heaven, desiring their Assistance and Prayers, that See Nubes Testium, which shows this at large, S. Ambr. l. de Vid. they would join with them in their Requests: Nay, they expressly say, that the Saints ought to be prayed to: Now because this does not favour your Cause, in Obsecrandi sunt Angeli: Martyrs obsecrandi. the literal sense, 'tis strange how industrious you are to suck out the substance, and to blow it all up into a Figure; and those express Prayers are no Prayers; but rather Raptures, Innocent Wishes, Rhetorical Flights and Apostrop●es. On the other side, though the Papists are never any where directed to pray to the Cross, have no Prayers to the Cross; yet because in one of their Hymns are found two words literally implying a Prayer to it: Oh! this must be taken literally; here no Figure can be discovered, no Rapture, no Innocent Wish, Rhetorical Flight or Apostophe, although the whole Hymn be nothing but a Poetical composure, which without any injury to Christian Truth, takes the liberty of such Innocent Flights. Thus are you sometimes for Figures, and sometimes for no Figures, managing every thing as will best contribute to the advancing your own Cause, the running down Popery, and making it odious with the People. This seems to be your chief aim in all your Performances; and the only Measure of your Comments and Interpretations. I wish you would be more serious in a Concern of this moment, and not expose thus the Reputation of the greatest part of the Christian World, to the mercy of every little Conceit, and petty imaginary Proof. Such Arguments as these, might serve well enough for a Christmas-nights' Entertainment; but to insert them for a Catechism-Proof, when the Subject is Religion and the Guidance of Souls, is very unseasonable and improper; especially when true Representing and doing it faithfully is pretended in the Frontispiece. Misrepresent. Don't run yourself out of Breath upon this Point: you have another yet to speak to, viz. Why the Papists go in long Pilgrimages to certain Images, if they do not Pray to them, or hope to be better heard for Praying there? Represent. That's another of the Catechism Proofs, but for a Diversion there's another Piece calls for a Word or two. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented. SECOND PART. CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers, or agreeable to them? The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protestant: being Notes upon a late Pamphlet, entitled, The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation, not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers. The Papist Misrepresented, by the wonderful Advantages of Implicit Faith and Prejudice, is preserved in Ignorance, and led into the most Monstrous of Errors. By these helps the late Inventions of Men are shamm'd upon him, for the Doctrine of the Primitive Church; and what was never known to the Ancient Fathers, takes place in his Creed, as Their most constant and professed Doctrine. This is evident in many Particulars, but most clearly as to the Point of Transubstantiation, which the Primitive Fathers were so far from holding, that They believed the direct contrary. Indeed we have from the Writings of the Fathers so many plain Places against this Doctrine, that we cannot conceive how it came into the World: so that notwithstanding the Papists pretence to Antiquity in this Point, we shall find they are mere Gibeonits', who have made use of their moldy bread and clouted shoes to deceive the People of the Lord; and that they confidently lay claim to the Fathers for the defence of this Point, which upon examination is found quite contrary to their Belief. Sum. of the Pamphl. THe Papist Represented admits nothing to take place in his Creed, but upon such strong and convincing Motives, that none can accuse him of Ignorance or Error, but those who have their Judgements swallowed up by Prejudice, and whose Passion has overrun their Reason. The Inventions of Men are with him but of little value, they may be the Subject of his Opinion, but no concern of his Faith; This bids them defiance, and embraces nothing but what is securely founded on the Scripture, and the Doctrine of the Primitive Fathers. Upon these solid and lasting Supports stand every Article of his Faith: And that of Transubstantiation has nothing less than these to rely on. This has an undoubted claim to Antiquity, and is so far from being contrary to the sentiments of the Primitive Fathers, that nothing contrary to it, can be discovered in them by the most critical Observers. Many and express are the Testimonies found in their Works upon this Subject; & because a confident Undertaker has in a late Pamphlet endeavoured to stamp this Doctrine with Novelty, and to show, that the Primitive Fathers believed the direct contrary, we'll set down the Testimonies he produces for the advancing this Position, and, for clearing the matter, place on the other side of the Balance other Sayings out of the same Fathers; and then leave it to the impartial Judge to determine, whether side outweighs: that is, whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, be direct contrary to the Belief of the Fathers, as is pretended, or else agreeable to it. Testimonies of the Fathers cited in the Pamphlet against Transubstantiation. Testimonies of the Fathers in behalf of Transubstantiation. Dionys. c. 3. Eccl. Hier. By those reverend Signs and Symbols Christ is signified, and the Faithful made partakers of him. DIonisius in the same chapter prays thus to Christ in the Sacrament: O most Divine and Holy Sacrifice, open those mystical and signifying Vails wherewith thou art covered: show thyself clearly unto us, and replenish our spiritual eyes with thy singular and revealed brightness. Justin Mart. Apol. 2. Our blood and flesh are nourished by the conversion of that food, which we receive in the Eucharist. Justin Martyr. This place of this Father is thus at length: For we do not receive this as common Bread, or common Drink; But as by the Word of God, Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made Man, had both Flesh and Blood for our Salvation: So also we are taught that this food, by which our blood and flesh are by a change nourished, being consecrated by the prayer of the Word, is the Flesh and Blood of Christ Jesus himself incarnate. Tertul. adv. Mar. l. 4. c. 4. Christ taking the Bread, and distributing it to his Disciples, made it his Body, saying, This is my Body, that is to say, a Figure of my Body. Tertullian. Christ taking the Bread, and distributing it to his Disciples made it his Body, saying, This is my Body, that is to say, a figure of my Body. Which means, that he made that to be his Body, which had been a Figure of his Body, in the Old Law, to wit, the Bread: as is evident from the context; and is proved at large by Perron, who shows the design of Tertullian in that discourse against Martion to be, that Christ came to fulfil all the Types and Figures of the Old Law: and so that he made the Bread to be his Body, which in the Old Law had been only a Figure of it. The same Tertullian l. de Resurr. Car. c. 8. says thus; Our flesh feeds on the Body and Blood of Christ, that the Soul may be filled with God. Id. l. de Anima, That if we question our senses, we may doubt, whether our Blessed Saviour was not deceived in what he heard, and saw, and touched; He might (says he) be deceived in the voice from Heaven, in the smell of the Ointment with which he was anointed against his Burial, and in the taste of the Wine▪ which he consecrated in remembrance of his Blood. Chrysostom Homil. 83. in Mattheum. Let us give Credit to God every where, and not contradict him, although what he says seems contrary to our Apprehension and our Eyes. Let his saying master our Understanding and our Eyes. And thus let us behave ourselves in the Mysteries, not only looking upon what is before us, but holding fast his Words. For his Words cannot deceive, but our sense may be easily mistaken; his Words cannot be untrue; but our sense is very often deceived. Since therefore he has said, This is my Body, let us be convinced and believe, and behold it with the Eyes of our understanding. Cyril. Hier. Cat. c. 4. Do not therefore look on it as mere Bread only, or bare Wine; for as God himself has said, 'tis the Body and Blood of Christ. Notwithstanding therefore the information of sense, let Faith confirm thee, and do not judge of the thing by the Taste; but rather take it for most certain by Faith, without the least doubting, that his Body and Blood are given thee. Origen contra Mar. Calls the Bread and the Chalice, the Images of the Body and Blood of Christ. Origen. Hom. 5. in div. lo. Evang. When you receive the holy Food and that incorruptible Banquet, when you enjoy the Bread of Life and Cup, you eat and drink the Body and Blood of our Lord, than our Lord enters under your Roof: do you therefore humble yourself, and imitating the Centurion, say: Lord, I am not worthy thou shouldst enter under my Roof. For where he enters unworthily, there he enters to the judgement of the Receiver. Id. in Mat. That which is consecrated by God's Word and Prayer, as to the matter of it, goeth into the belly, and is voided into the draught. Ambros. de sacr. l. 4. c. 4, The Bread and Wine are what they were, and yet are changed into another thing. St. Ambrose de Mist. init. c. 9 How many examples do we produce to prove, that this is not what Nature framed, but what the Benediction has consecrated; and that the power of Benediction is greater than the power of Nature, because by Benediction Nature itself is changed? Moses held a Rod in his hand, he cast it from him, and it became a Serpent— The Rivers afforded no drink; at the prayers of the Prophet, they ran no longer Blood, but the Nature of waters returned.— Now if Blessings given by Men were of so great efficacy, as to change the Nature of things; what shall we say of the divine Consecration, where the very Words of Christ our Saviour are operative? For this Sacrament which thou receivest, is made by the Words of Christ. And if the words of Elias were so powerful, as to draw fire from Heaven, shall not the words of Christ be powerful enough, to change the nature of things? Thou hast read of the Creation of the World, that God spoke, and the things were made; he commanded, and they received a Being. If therefore Christ by his Word, was able to make something of nothing; shall he not be thought able, to change one thing into another? For it is no less a work, to give a Nature or Being to things, than to change them from one Nature to another.— 'Twas above the order of Nature for a Virgin to conceive; and this Body which we make in the Sacrament, is that which was born of the Virgin. Why do you require here the order of Nature in the Body of Christ, when as above all Nature, Christ was born of a Virgin? Theod. Dial. Christ honoured the Symbols and the Signs, with the Title of his Body and Blood; not changing the Nature, but to Nature adding grace; for neither do the Mystical Signs recede from their nature; for they abide in their proper substance, figure and form, and may be seen and touched. Theodoret immediately after the words, cited in the adverse Column, goes on in these words: The Mystical Signs are understood to be that which they are made, and they are believed and adored, as being those very things which they are believed. And in his Comment. in ep. ad Cor. he says, That Christ gave his precious Body and Blood, not only to the eleven Apostles, but also to the Traitor Judas. And That they contemn and affront Christ, who take his most sacred Body into their unclean hands, and receive it within their polluted mouth. Of this Theodoret the Protestant Centuriators (Cent. 5. c. 10.) say; That he spoke dangerously of the Sacrament; because he affirms, that the Symbols of the Body and Blood of Christ, after the invocation of the Priest, are changed▪ and made other things than they were before. Eusebius. Christ gave his disciples the Symbols of divine Oeconomy, commanding the Image and Type of his Body to be made. Eusebius, l. 1. Dem. Evang. c. 10. Being now preferred to a more excellent Sacrifice and Office, than that was of the Old Law, we think it unreasonable any more to fall back to those first and weak Elements, which contain certain Signs and Figures, but not the truth itself. Id. As cited by St. Jo. Damas. Many sinners being Priests, do offer Sacrifice; neither does God deny his assistance, but by the holy Ghost consecrates the proposed Gifts. And the Bread indeed is made the Precious Body of our Lord, and the Cup his precious Blood. Greg. Naz▪ Orat. 2 in Pas. Now we shall be partakers of the Paschal Supper but still in a Figure, though more clear than in the old Law, for the legal Passover, (I will not be afraid to speak it) was a more obscure Figure of a Figure. St. Greg. Naz. Lest any one should think he speaks in the place cited of a mere Figure without the substance, in the same Oration thus exhorts his Auditors, Eat, says he, without confusion and without doubting, the Body, and drink the Blood of thy Saviour; If thou desirest to have life: and refuse not to give credit to the words which are spoken concerning his Flesh: neither be scandalised at his Passion. Be constant, firm and stable, not wavering in any thing for the sayings of thy Adversaries. And in Orat. 11. he says thus of his sister Corgonia; She prostrates herself with Faith before the Altar, and with a great cry calls upon him, who is worshipped on it. S. Austin. Indeed this is a miserable Bondage of the Soul, to take the Signs instead of the things Signified. And in the Person of Christ, speaking to his disciples, says thus You are not to eat this Body which you see, or to drink that Blood which my Crucifiers shall pour forth, I have commended to you the Sacrament, which being Spiritually understood, shall quicken you. St. Austin in his explication of the 98 Psalms, where expounding these words, Adore his footstool; he says thus: I inquire what this his footstool is, and the Scripture makes me answer, The earth is my footstool. Here now wavering I turn myself to Christ, because 'tis he I seek here, and I am forthwith satisfied, how the Earth may be adored without sacrilege, and his footstool without the guilt of Idolatry. For he took Earth of Earth, Flesh being of Earth, and he took Flesh of the Flesh of Mary. And because he conversed here with us in that Flesh, and gave us that very Flesh to eat for the Salvation of our Souls; and there is nobody eats that Flesh without adoring it first; 'tis evident, how that foostool of our Lord may be adored; and that we are so far from sinning in adoring it, that we sin, if we do not adore it. Id. Christ brought them to a banquet, in which he commended to his Disciples the Figure of his Body and Blood, for he did not doubt to say, This is my Body, when he gave the Sign of his Body. And L. 12. con. Faust. c. 10. he says: For the Blood of Christ upon Earth has a loud Voice, when all people receiving it, answer, Amen. This is the plain Voice of the Blood, which the very Blood itself speaks out of the mouths of the Faithful, who are redeemed by the same Blood. And c. 2c. He calls the Eucharist, The Sacrament of Hope, by which the Church is at this time united, as long as That is drunk which flowed from the side of Christ. Id. How shall l lay hold on him who is absent? How shall I reach my hands unto the Heavens, and touch him who sits there? Send thy Faith thither and thou hast him sure. Id. in Com. Psal. 33. where he speaks thus of Christ. And hè was carried in his own hands. And can this, my Brethren, be possible in man! Was ever any man carried in his own hands? He may be carried by the hands of others; but in his own, no man was ever yet carried. How this can be literally understood of David we cannot discover. But in Christ we find it verified. For Christ was carried in his own hands, when giving his own very Body, He said, This is my Body. For that Body he carried in his own hands. Such is the Humility of our Lord Jesus Christ. S. Chrysost. in 1 Cor. c. 10. What is that which the Bread signifies? The body of Christ. S. Chrysost. Hom. de Euchar. where speaking of the Blessed Sacrament, he says thus, Do you see Bread? Do you see wine? Does this go into the Draught like other Food? God forbid, don't think so. For as Wax when joined with the Fire is likened unto it, so that nothing of the Substance of it is left, nothing remains; So here conceive the Mysteries to be consumed with the Substance of the Body. And Hom. 83 in Matt. Christ did not think it enough to become Man, be scourged and murdered; but he incorporates himself with us, and not by Faith only, but in reality makes us his Body—— Many Mother's there are, who seed their Insants at a Stranger's Breast; but Christ not so; he nourishes us with his own Blood—— The things we propose are not ●one by humane Power. He that wrought those things at the ●ast Supper, is the Author of what is done here: We hold but the place of Ministers; but he that sanctifies and changes them is Christ himself. Id. ad Caes. Monach. After Consecration the Bread is worthy of the Name of the Body of Christ, although the Nature of the Bread remains still in it. And Hom. 24. in Ep. 1. ad Cor. That which is in the Chalice, is the same that flowed from his Side, and we are Partakers of it. He poured out this very Blood, that we might not remain in Error; and he not only poured it out, but he has likewise given the very same to us. Wheresore, says he to us, If you desire Blood, do not colour the Altars of Idols with the Blood of Beasts; but upon my Altar offer up my Blood. And Lib. 3. de S●c●●d. O Miracle! He that sits above with his Father, at the very same instant of Time is here in the Hands of all, he gives himself to those that are w●lling to receive him. And Hom. 46. in Joan. The Devils when they behold the Blood of Christ within us, are put to Flight, and the Angels come in. This Blood purified the Holy of Holies: and if the Figure of it had so great Virtue in the Temple of the Jews, and when sprinkled on the Doors of the Egyptians, it has much greater now being the Truth. Macar. 27. Hom. 27▪ In the Church Bread and Wine are offered; the Type of his Flesh and Blood, and they who are Partakers of the visible Bread, do Spiritually eat the Flesh of the Lord. S. Cyril Alexan Ep. ad Colos. Cited by S. Thomas. That we should not feel horror to see Flesh and Blood on the Sacred Altars▪ God condescending to our Frailty, flows into the things offered the Power of Life: converting them into the verity of his own Flesh; to the end the Body of life be found in us, as a certain quickening seed. S. Greg Nyss. c. 37. I do now rightly believe, that the Bread sanctified by the Word of God, is changed into the Body of God by the Word. Pope Gelasius l. de 2. Nat. The Sacraments which we receive of the Body and Blood of Christ are a divine Thing, by means whereof we are made Partakers of the divine Nature, and yet the Substance of Bread and Wine doth not cease to be. Here the Author has made a new Pope: for this was another Gelasius, as is proved at large by Bellarmin: and if the words immediately following the text cited in the same Author▪ be added, the difficulty is removed; which are these: They (the substance of Bread and Wine) do pass into a Divine Substance, the Holy Ghost effecting it; yet remaining in the propriety of their Nature. Here's a short account of what the Primitive Fathers say as to the Point under debate, which may be seen more at large in such volumes as designedly treat of this Subject. And what think you now, Misrepresenter? Take both sides into your hands, and weigh them; and see, to which part the Fathers incline. Consider the matter a little, and tell me whether the Fathers are such strict Protestants in this affair, as is pretended? Do you think, They could have taken the Test? Do their express belief of the real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, their plain assertion of the supernatural change of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, agree with that Parliamentary Divinity? Come, Misrepresenter, it argues a great Stock of Confidence in you, thus to pretend positively that the Fathers believed direct contrary to our Doctrine; whereas 'tis evident to any Eye, that is not blinded like yours, They deliver themselves most largely and fully in its behalf; and that amongst all the Ends of Text you have picked out of them, there is not so much as one directly contrary to what we hold. Misrepresent. You press too many Questions at once; You bid me Consider, and would have me Answer too. But the best on't is, I need no consideration here, for without it I know what I am to return: and 'tis, that though you heap up fifty times more express Testimonies than these, yet the Fathers still believed direct contrary to your Doctrine. They speak of the Sacrament, and call it a Figure, a Symbol, a Sign, an Image, a Remembrance, and this is a contradiction to your Belief, and as long as these Words are to be found in them, the People I have to deal with, will take it so. Represent. This is thine own true self, Misrepresenter: to prove a thing by halves, and call that confuting of Popery, is your Masterpiece. Why, these expressions of the Fathers, terming the Sacrament, a Figure, a Symbol, a Sign, an Image, a Remembrance, are so far from being contrary to our Belief, that they are as agreeable to it, as to the Articles of the very Protestant Church itself. For the Catholic Church teaches that the Body and Blood of Christ are in the Blessed Sacrament really and substantially, and so indeed not only as in a Sign, Symbol or Figure. But it does not deny the Sacrament to be a Figure: for the Eucharist is a Figure, or Representation of the Death of Christ. It does not deny it to be a Sign; for the outward and visible species of Bread are a Sign of the Heavenly Bread that is within. It does not deny it to be a Remembrance or Commemoration; for whosoever receives it, shows forth, according to St. Paul, the Passion and Death of our Redeemer. It does not deny it to operate by a Virtue,- for it has Virtue and Power there to work in the Soul. What our Church denys and condemns, is, that the Body and Blood of Christ is there only as in a Sign, or in a Figure, or a Virtue, and not according to the Verity and Substance of it. You prove therefore nothing against us, in producing Testimonies of the Father's owning the Sacrament to be a Figure, a Sign, etc. For this is not to show Them contrary to us, but positively agreeing with our Belief: especially if taken together, with what you see cited out of them in our favour. If you will make good your Pretences, and not abuse your Followers with half-demonstrations; you should see first to understand the Doctrine of your Adversaries before you undertake to confute it. Show that the Fathers maintain the Sacrament to be only a Sign, only a Figure, etc. and you may do something; but till then don't pretend They believed contrary to us. Misrepresent. This is a put off with a piece of New Popery. But let that go. Some of the Fathers positively say, that the Nature or Substance of Bread remains after Consecration: I hope this too does not agree with your Doctrine. Represent. What I have declared to you has nothing new in it. 'Tis asserted positively by Bellarmine: and that every Sacrament is a Sign, has been the constant Doctrine of our Divines, who make that an essential part of the Definition of a Sacrament. As for what some of the Father's mention of the Nature or Substance of Bread remaining: any one that is versed in their Writings is not ignorant, that by those terms they often mean no more than the Natural qualities or visible appearances of things; as you yourselves can tell us upon occasion, when it serves your turn to have it so: and in this sense it does not at all disagree with our Belief. But suppose the worst; those expressions of the Fathers, are only occasional or accidental; but where they treat professedly of this▪ Subject, they speak plainly in our behalf, and (to follow the Rule of one of the Lights of your Church, as you style him in▪ this Pamphlet) I would fain know whether a man's judgement must be taken from occasional Dr. St. and incidental passages, or from designed and set discourses; which is as much as to ask, whether the lively representation of a man by Picture, may best be taken, when in haste of other business he passes by us, giving only a glance of his Countenance; or when he purposely and designedly sits in order to that end, that his Countenance may be truly represented? There's no Book treats so fully and demonstratively of any Subject in one place, but occasionally speaking of the same elsewhere, from some obscure or dubious expression, furnishes matter for an Objection against the Doctrine before designedly established. This is true even of the Bible itself, which teaching Christ to be True Man, does yet by the occasional expression of St. Paul, saying that he appeared in Habit as a Man, and in the Likeness of a Man; give occasion to some to object, that he was no Real and Substantial Man, which strikes at the very Fundamental Truth delivered in that Sacred Volume: and if this be true, even of the Word of God itself; what wonder, to find it in the Works of the Fathers much more ample and voluminous? Misrepresent. This is another shift, with a help of a Logical distinction: however let this pass too. But as long as you don't believe your senses, but deny the certainty of those Powers, which God has given us to lead us to the Belief of all the Mysteries of Christian Religion, I am sure you contradict the Fathers, and are in a fair way of undermining the very foundation of Christianity. Represent. This is the Cock-Argument of the other Light of your Church, and it so far resembles the Light, that like it, it makes a glaring show, but go to grasp it, and you find nothing in your Hand. Why, Misrepresenter, even in this Mystery I believe more of my Senses, than you do; my Eyes tell me there is the colour of Bread, and I assent to them; my Tongue, that it has the taste of Bread, I agree to it: my smelling, that it has the smell of Bread, I yield to it: my Fingers that it feels like Bread; I accept of the Information: my Ears tell me from the Words spoken by Christ himself, That it is the Body of Christ; I believe these too. Is not here Misrepresenter, one Sense more than you believe? And yet you would fain persuade the World, I do not believe my Senses. The Sense by which Faith comes, is that of Hearing. S. Paul positively affirming, that Faith comes by Hearing▪ and how do I overthrow the certainty of Christian Religion, by harkening to that Sense, by which all Faith is to be conveyed into my Soul? Misrepresent. You don't believe your Eyes which assure you of the Substance of the Bread being there, even after Consecration. Represent. If your Eyes see the Substance of things, they are most extraordinary ones, and better than mine. For my part, mine never saw farther than the Colour or Figure, etc. of things, which are only accidents, and the entire Object of that Sense. 'Tis Reason or Judgement acquaints me with the Substance▪ and this Judgement, 'tis true, I frame generally from the Information of my Senses, excepting when they are indisposed, or some Divine Revelation intervenes: For in this case I choose rather to judge from This, than from my Senses; as Abraham did, who being told by his Senses, That those three that appeared to him (Gen 18.) were Men, and by a Revelation from God, that they were Angels, judged of them and their Nature according to the Revelation, and not according to his Senses. Misrepresent. You are all upon Quirks and Philosophy to day, and I am tired with your Distiactions, and so farewell, till the holidays are over. Represent. Fare you well; but do you hear, don't forget to send your People to the Chapels to Morrow Morning, to see the Nursing and Rocking the Child in the Cradle. This is one of your April-Errands for Christmas Morning; and you don't think much of making the Papists ridiculous, though it be at the expense of making your own people Fools. Published with Allowance. London, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented. SECOND PART. CHAP. FOUR The Form of the Catholic Church established by Christ. No hopes of Salvation out of it. The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this point, Good at this day. The Protestants as uncharitably damn the Papists, as These are said to do the Protestants. In reference to the Preface of Wholesome advices from the B. V. etc. THe Papists Misrepresented is Member of a Church, which excludes all others from the hopes of Salvation, besides those who are within the Pale of her own Communion. And no doubt his Church is True, if uncharitableness, be but a Mark of the True one: if it be but safest to be on the uncharitable side, he's beyond all question in the right. But certainly this is to leave the Rule of Christ and his Apostles, and of the Primitive Church, who taught none of this damning Doctrine, but ever recommended Charity, as the necessary foundation of a Christian life. THe Papist Represented is taught, that Christ our Saviour, before his Ascension into Heaven established a Church consisting of all True Believers, amongst which he gave some Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers, for the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the Ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ, till we all come in the Unity of Faith. (Ephes. 4. 11, 12, 13.) These Apostles, Evangelists, Paston and Teachers, he constituted over the Faithful, to oversee, rule and direct them, to whom he gave them in charge by the mouth of St. Paul (Act. 20. 28.) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the Flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you Overseers, to feed the Church of God, which he hath pnrchased with his own blood: with a strict Command to the Flock or Congregation of the Faithful, to be obedient to these Pastors thus put over them by the Ordinance of God: (Heb. 13. 17.) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for They watch for your Souls, as they that must give account. And vers. 7. Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God, whose Faith follow. This command of submitting to Pastors, was given to the Flock, as he is taught by St. Paul, for the preventing Divisions and Schisms: that so, notwithstanding their differing private Inclinations, Capacities, Sense and Judgement, by this Obedience and Submission to those that were put over them, for their rule and direction, they might be perfectly joined together in the same mind and same judgement (1 Cor. 1. 10.) That they might be preserved in the Unity of Peace, and be no more Children, rossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of Doctrine, (Ephes. 4. 14.) And that the People or Flock might have no scruple or solicitude upon them, for fear of being led into Error by these Apostles and Pastors, but might securely and without anxiety of Spirit rest under their Guidance and Direction, Christ did most solemnly promise the said Overseers, the Apostles and Pastors, the assistance of his Holy Spirit: I am with you always, even unto the end of the world (Mat. 28. 2c.) The Comforter, the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things (Jo. 14. 26.) By which effectual Promise they were constituted Guides, were taught all Truth, and all those secured from Error, who committed themselves to their Instruction. The Catholic Church being thus constituted, and ordianed by Christ himself, and provided with Apostles and Pastors divinely assisted for the instructing the Flock in the Mysteries of the Christian Faith: with an obligation on all that heard them, to believe upon pain of damnation: He that believeth not, shall be damned (Mat. 16. 16.) it is certain that all such as did separate themselves from the Communion of the Apostles, either by contradicting or disbelieving their Doctrine, or being refractory to their Government, did in this most heinously offend the Divine Majesty, and exclude themselves from the hopes of Salvation; the former, by rejecting the true Faith, without which 'tis impossible to please Him, Heb. 11. 6. the latter by disobedience, resisting the Ordinance of God; They that resist, shall receive to themselves damnation, Rom. 13. 1. 2. This was the Face and Constitution of the Church of Christ in the time of the Apostles; Salvation being promised to those that believed: He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved: and Damnation threatened to disbelievers; He that believeth not shall be damned, Mar. 16. 16. So that 'twas no Uncharitable, but a most Evangelical Assertion in the Evangelist, to say; The Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. (Act. 2. 47.) And the declaring, that there was no Salvation out of their Church, was nothing but a necessary Doctrine. The Church being thus by Christ himself founded, the Pillar and Ground of Truth, 2 Tim. 3. 15. consisting of Pastors and Teachers to instruct, and of the Flock under an indispensable obligation of receiving and Submitting to their Instruction; it was so to continue to the end of the World: Christ's Spirit, being to abide with her for ever. (Jo. 14. 16.) The Promise of his assistance being not limited to the Persons of the Apostles, but annexed to their Function. As therefore St. Paul, when he left Ephesus (Act. 20. 28.) appointed others to oversee and rule the Flock, with their Commission from the holy Ghost: So he and the other Apostles, when they departed this Life, had others to succeed them, for the Direction and Government of the Faithful. And as those who cut themselves off from the Communion of the Apostles, incurred the guilt of Damnation, by avoidable, in so doing, erring in Faith, or Disobedience; so likewise all those, who separated from the Communion of their Successors: it being at all times most certainly true, that there was no true Faith, nor true Charity in any, that separated themselves from the Doctrine and Government of the Church of Christ, over which the Apostles were Overseers and Rulers for their time, and their Successors to be so after them to the end of the World. This, as to the Apostles, is evident from the severe censure of Deceivers, pronounced against all those who endeavoured to make Divisions in their time (Ephes. 4. 14.) where they are said to work, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. And 2 Tim. 2. 18. Such as dissented from the Apostles, are condemned for erring concerning the Truth, and overthrowing the Faith. And Tit. 3. 11. They are said to be subverted and in sin, and to be condemned of themselves. And as to their Successors, the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her confessed Purity, is a most convincing Argument; there being none that in the first three or four Centuries, ever separated from them, either in point of Doctrine, or making Schisms, though under the most colourable pretext of Reforming Errors, or rejecting Innovation, but were declared Innovators, as men to be avoided, as cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ, by the Pastors and Overseers then in being. The Rule of St. John (1 Joh. 4. 6.) being always the standard-Measure of the Church; He that knows God, heareth us; he that is not of God, heareth not us: hereby know we the Spirit of Truth, and the Spirit of Error. Here then 'tis evident that the Catholic Church in the time of the Apostles, as also of their Successors, was the Depository of the true Faith; and that to descent from her in Faith, was to fall into Error, to divide from God; He that hears you, hears me; and he that despises you, despises me, (Luke 10. 16.) If he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an Heathen, and a Publican, (Matth. 18. 17.) and consequently no Promises of Christ, nor Salvation to be expected by such, who were not of her Communion. This same One holy Catholic Church, he believes to have continued in all Ages, it being at all times true, what has been always said by the Faithful in the Creed, I believe the holy Ca-Cholic Church; and that 'tis to remain to the end of the World assisted by the Spirit of God, and preserved from teaching errors, according to the Promise of Christ. (Matth. 28. 20. Joh. 14. 16.) So that as then, so now at this time there is a Church succeeding that of the Apostles, which teaches all Truth, and from which none can separate, without erring in Faith, or incurring the guilt of Schism, Sins altogether inconsistent with Salvation. And because after most serious Considerations, and the weighing of all Reasons, he believes this Church to be that, in whose Communion he is; he does not question, but what is truly affirmed of the Church of the Apostles and succeeding Ages, and those that fell from it; is most true of the same Church now in being, of which he's a Member, and of all those who separate from it, upon what pretext soever. And however this may be painted out for Vncharitablenss, yet 'tis certainly the very Doctrine delivered by the Apostles, and the Practice of the Primitive Church. And when the worst has been made of it, yet still he does not come short of Dr. tillotson's Charity, for notwithstanding all this, yet so much Charity he has (and he desires always to have it) as to hope that a great many of other separate Persuasions, who live piously, and have been almost inevitably Serm. at Whitehall, pr. 3d. detained in their Persuasion, by the prejudice of Education, and an Invincible Ignorance, will upon a sincere general Repentance find mercy with God. Misrepresent. Enough of this dry reasoning: What do you say to a Piece not long since published, Wholesome Advices from the Blessed Virgin to her Indiscreet Worshippers, which being composed by one of your own Persuasion, has laid you more open, than all your Adversaries could do. Come let me tell you, the blow that comes from a Friend is the severest: and this true Representer, has quite blasted all your Representing Characters and Expositions. Represent. Then, I see, you intent I should s●t up for Reader of Anatomy upon all the Pamphlets that come into the World. I am highly obliged to you for the kindness; but I think the Scavanger has much the better Office; who has nothing but Dirt and Sinks to deal with, much less offensive, than to be always raking in filthy Calumnies, fulsome Incongruities, and noisome Impertinencies. No, Misrepresenter, I would not undertake it, though I were certain to enlarge my Interest, and become as Popular, as you have done, by your so taking knack of Misrepresenting. However, to pleasure a Friend as you are, I'll touch at some particulars, which seem to fall within my Province of Representing. Misrepresent. Why, I hope, there's no Misrepresenting there; you done't sure do that ill office to one another; I thought none but Protestants had been Misrepresenters. Represent. Yes, yes, 'tis Protestant Misrepresenting, I mean to be at. As long as it has a Protestant Preface to it, never question, Misrepresenter, but I shall find your finger in it. And what think you of the sourth and fi●th leaves of the Preface, where he sets out the Papist, as Weak, as Confident, as Ridiculous, as Foolish as he can well make them: are not these Colours of your laying on? Misrepresent. He does not assert this barely, without giving a Reason for't. He says, your pronouncing Damnation against all those that are separated from your Church, is an argument of the weakness of your Cause; and that your declaring all others to be out of the way of Salvation, is only because you are at a loss for other Reasons to convince men's Understanding, and therefore by these Threats and Thunders you work upon their Passions: which to considering Men proves nothing more, than your own Confidence and Ridiculousness, and makes them doubt, whether in this you have Pref. more of the Fool or the Artist. And what Misrepresenting, I pray you, in this? Represent▪ Never more Unreasonable Misrepresenting, then when Calumnies are set out with the Colours of Reason. You, Friend, see but with one eye; and, I fear, have that Curse upon you, to think even contradictions reasonble, so they be but in favour of the Cause you have espoused. He gives a Reason, you say, for what he says: But is it reason or fair dealing in him, to load the Papists with the most Ignominious Names, and Ridicule them to the Multitude, for making such Declarations in reference to such as are out of their Communion, which is nothing more than what is done by his own Church, nay what he himself does most solemnly make, before he concludes his Preface, almost in the same breath, with which he so positively declaimed against the Papist? Consider this a little, if Considering be not out of thy power. The Papists declare, that such as separate from the Faith and Communion of their Church, sounded by Christ, and continued down from the Apostles, under a visible Succession of Pastors and Teachers, do by that depart from the Truth, from the Doctrine and Commands of Christ, and consequently are out of the way of Salvation. This by the Preface-maker, is presently set out for Thundering of Hell and Damnation, 'tis their Confidence, 'tis the Weakness of their Cause, puts them upon it, and for so doing, they are void of Charity. And yet see, how condemning this in the Papists, he does the very same thing himself; hear his solemn Profession, which he makes in the presence of God, the last page of his Preface but one: I do here solemnly profess, says he, in the presence of God, that I cannot but conclude, the Worship, the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome, to be so extremely dangerous, that nothing but invincible Ignorance, of which God only can be judge, can give us any reasonable hope of their Salvation, who live and die in that Communion. Is not here the very same sentence pronounced by Protestants against the Papist, which the Papists declare against the Protestants? And yet He that Unchurches the Papists for so doing, thinks himself as safe in the very doing of what he condemns, that he could venture the Salvation of a thousand Souls, if he had them, upon the ground on which he stands. Pray now tell me, how that comes to be so safe, so reasonable and secure in Him and his Church, which in the Papist he condemns for so Uncharitable and Ridiculous? Or how happens it, that having dressed up the Papists in a Fools-coat, and afterwards slipping it over his own shoulders, he thinks himself to look so Wise and Grave upon't? Come, Misrepresenter, here's more of your hand in this Preface, than I expect you'll own; if you had net, by your malignant influence, indisposed the Author's eyesight; Red and Yellow, had been the same Colours to him upon a Protestant-back▪ as upon a Papist. Misrepresent. Come you wrong the Author by your Misconstructions; he does not say the Papists are damned, but that their condition is extremely dangerous; and this does not leave them without hope of Salvation. Represent▪ 'Tis true, he'll allow the Ignorant and Fools of his Communion so much Charity, as to think the Papists way he saved. But for the judicious and learned Protestants, who go by Reason, who consider and weigh things, no such Charity in them: there's no Reasonable hope, says he, of their Salvation, who live and die in that Communion of the Papists. So that, if any are so Charitable amongst the Protestants, 'tis for want of being advised, for want of being better instructed in their Religion, 'tis for want of being like those that Guide 'em, for want of Reason: for there's no Reasonable hope, says he, of their Salvation: no reasonable hope at all, unless it be for such of them whose invincible Ignorance will excuse them. And is not this the very same, which is most frankly allowed the Protestant's by the Papists, who after they have been proclaimed so often to the gaping Crowds, for most Uncharitable Damners, Thunderers of Hell and Damnation against the poor Protestants, do not advance their damnation one ace farther against them, than the Protestants themselves most solemnly in the presence of God, and after good consideration, do against the Papists: There being no Papist, but what will grant such Protestants hopes of Salvation, who living piously, and repenting sincerely of all offences, through invincible Ignorance remain in that Communion, which is the utmost it seems of what they'll allow the Papists. Do you see, Misrepresenter, by this, how injuriously busy you have been in slandering the Papists? How many thousand Mouths and Pens have you influenced, to render the Papists black and odious for their uncharitablenss, for their excluding all others from Salvation besides themselves: when upon examination of the matter, the Doctrine of Papists and Protestants in this affair is the same in reference to each other; and the Protestants are as unchristian Damners of the Papists, as they are made to be of the Protestants. Misrepresent. Come you abuse the Protestants: they are too tender-hearted: have more Charity, then to say, you are damned: I never heard so foul a word fall from any of them. And if you have found any thing like it in this Preface, you are to consider, the Author of it professes himself a Layman, and you are not to take measure of their Religion from him; he may be overseen, through Zeal or Passion, he's dabbling out of his element, and may he mistaken. Represent. 'Tis true, he says he's a Layman; but he speaks so like a Clergyman, so almost in the very words and phrase of a Doctor of his Church, mentioned at large in my last Reply; that I cannot but take it for Church-sence, dropping through a Lay-pen. They both agree, that the only hope of Salvation for the Papists, is invincible Ignorance. They both meet, first in declaring against the Papists for their uncharitableness, and then unluckily jump in asserting the very Principle they condemn. Then, if you take the other Doctor along with you, quoted in the same Reply, who declares, That all those, who are Members Idol of the Church of Rome, Ed. 1, p. 3. of the Church of Rome, must by the terms of Communion with that Church, be guilty either of Hypocrisy or Idolatry, either of which are sins inconsistent with Salvation: You'll find it most evident, that this Preface speaks the sense of the Protestant Church, and that the throwing it upon a Layman, is but a vain Apology. However, to give the Protestants their due, this I'll say for them, that amongst the kind, They are the most Gentile and Courtly Damners, that can possibly be met with: For, as you observe, they are seldom or never heard to say, The Papists must be damned: no, this Grim-divinity would alarm the dull Congregation, and make 'em jealous of their Leaders, that they condemn the Papi●ts for uncharitable and are as bad themselves: They declare their sentiments therefore in softer language, and instead of saying, The Papists must be damned, they only say, there's no reasonable hope of their Salvation: We hope, that such of them, as by invincible Ignorance are detained in that Communion, upon a general repentance will find mercy with God. They are Idolaters or Hypocrites, Superstitious, Bloodsuckers, etc. and must be necessarily guilty of such sins, as are inconsistent with Salvation; but they are Members still of the true Church, the corrupt; and God's merciful. In this kind of modest Cant, and with the show of Charity, do they cast out the Papists amongst the Reprobate. But all this, if't were put in plain English, is just the same as to say, They are damned; and 'tis only not to betray themselves to the people, they do not speak out. Tell me, Misrepresenter, when a Man has done his best to prove me an Idolater, a Hypocrite, a Corrupter of the Laws of God, that I incur the most horrid of crimes without remorse or Conscience, according to the Principles of my Religion: Does not he smooth me up with a very unseasonable Compliment, to tell me, after all this dreadful Indictment, that he has Charity enough▪ to hope I shall be saved. He first in good earnest makes a Devil of me, and with the same breath seems willing to compliment me into a Saint. But however, I don't think the Papists are much beholden to these, for their so civil hopes; for those that pretend to have Charity enough to hope thus of the Papists, after they have made 'em Idolaters and Hypocrites; I don't question, may have the like charitable Hopes for the Socinian, the Turk, the Jew, and the Atheists. And if more Doctors than One, don't in this lay a fair ground, for the taking in the Devils too within the extent of their Charity, I am mistaken. But these their pretended hopes I can look on no better than bare Compliments: 'tis plain, their allowance of Salvation to Papists is upon no other score, than the supposal of invincible Ignorance, and this makes their damning Doctrine to be of as jarge an extent, nay, to be the very same they decry in the Papists. And 'tis a Mystery to me, how they impose upon the People, making that look black and odious in the Papists, which They practise themselves without the least breach of Christian Charity. Misrepresent. ‛ This is a Paradox then to you, it seems: come 'tis a time of Christian liberty, and I'll be free with you: They know the People they have to deal with; the word Pope is an Enchantment, and Papist an Infatuation to them. Let them hear these but named, and they are so wholly possessed, their discerning Faculties so stupefied, that they'll pass you over fifty contradictions without once stumbling. No fear of their enquiring, How can this be? And, pray now, where's your difficulty of persuading these people any thing. Consider upon this, and then call me▪ Mis-representer again, if you think I deserve it. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented. SECOND PART. CHAP. V. The Papist, as to the Articles of his Belief, follows the Method prescribed by Christ, practised by the Apostles and the Primitive Church. The Method is of Divine Institution, and more according to Reason than what Others follow. The Word Worship is Equivocal, and acknowledged so by St. Austin. THe Papist as Misrepresented has no good Reasons to defend his way of Worship and Religion, and therefore the most Sovereign means he has to work upon weak minds, is plentifully to thunder out against them threatenings of Hell and Damnation; and Poor Man! What should he do? He finds himself at a loss to convince their Understanding; and therefore he must not be wanting to work upon their Passions. But since the strength of his Cause lies in nothing, but pouring out Curses, and pronouncing others to be in a Damnable condition, it proves nothing but his own Confidence. His Zeal may be great, but being not grounded on good Reasons, it only makes him the more Ridiculous, and is uncapable of shaking any one's constancy, because it arises without knowledge and judgement. The Sum of the ninth page of the Preface. THe Papist as Represented has so good Reasons for every Point of his Faith and Religion, that whosoever casts them by as Weak and Ridiculous, must upon the same grounds turn Christianity out of doors, and own it to be built on no better foundation, than the Ignorant Zeal and Confidence of its Asserters. The Motive of St. Augustin for his embracing the Scriptures for the Word of God, was the Authority of the Catholic Church; he expressly declaring (cont. Ep. Fundam.) That he would not believe the Gospel, except the Authority of the Catholic Church moved him to it. From this same Authority it is he receives every Article of his Faith; and since in his very Creed, he is taught to believe the Holy Catholic Church, he thinks he has Reason enough to do it. And whosoever taxes him of Weakness or Confidence for so doing, does nothing less than call him a Fool for believing his Creed; and this is only one Remove from telling him, that if he'll be Wise, and have good Reasons for what he does, he must be no Christian. Others may be so Wise, as to believe only Eleven Articles of their Creed: for his part he thinks it no reflection upon his Wisdom to believe Twelve: he was taught so many, when he was a Child, and he does not find he has outgrown any one of the number. This Catholic Church, which by the Creed every Christian is bound to believe, is, as was explicated in our last, the Congregation of all true Believers under the Government and Direction of Pastors and Teachers in an uninterrupted Succession descending from the Apostles, who by God's appointment, are set over the Flock, to feed and rule it; and whom the Flock is obliged to hear and obey, and whose Faith they are bound to follow in each respective Age. 'Tis thus delivered to him by St. Paul (Heb. 13. 7, 17.) Remember them which have the Rule over you, whose Faith follow. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves. And this way of the Faithful receiving their Instruction in the Christian Belief, from the Catholic Church speaking to them by the Pastors and Teachers of the said Church (which is the Method he observes, as to every Article of his Faith) has been always looked on so sound and reasonable, that in the time of the very Apostles, and of the Primitive Church, there was never any used but this: 'twas by this means the World first became Christian, and by the very same Orthodox Christianity has been always preserved in its vigour and purity, notwithstanding all the oppositions of Subtle, Malicious, or Self-interested Adversaries. He that has but read the Scriptures cannot but have observed, that the Method prescribed by Cbrist himself, for the planting and propagating the Mysteries of his Holy Faith in the World, was by ordaining and commissionating Apostles and Disciples, to inform all Mankind of his Doctrine and Religion; and the only Reasonable Means for any at that time, to arrive to the certain Knowledge of the True Faith, was to hear and submit to the Doctrine delivered by Those that were thus sent to Preach and Teach it. This is the way by which the Christian Religion was first planted in the World: and by this it has been ever since maintained. The same Pastors and Overseers, that were to teach the Gospel, having another part of their Charge, viz. To stand up in case of any Difficulties or Divisions arising in Point of Faith, and by their Decision to put an end to the Controversy; So to preserve Unity amongst the Faithful, and defeat all the attempts of Turbulent and Presuming Spirits. This Method of Pastors and Teachers directing and feeding, and the Obligation of the Flock to Submit and Obey, as necessary for continuing One Faith amongst Believers, he has learned to be Reasonable and of Divine Institution from the Practice of the Apostles. For he finds, Acts 15. that a Controversy being started at Antioch, concerning the necessity of Circumcision; 'twas not left to every Particular Believer to think and decide the matter, as they judge fit, according to the best of their Knowledge and Parts: neither did Paul and Barnabas, with other Overseers of the Church of Antioch, undertake to define any thing in this Particular. No; what was the Common Concern of all Christians, was not to be determined by the Rulers and Pastors of any Particular Church: but as belonging to All, 'twas to be remitted to the Consideration and Decision of Those, who had All under their Charge, that is, the Pastors of the Universal or Catholic Church. And thus did Paul and Barnabas; for going up to Jerusalem, the Cause was committed to the Hearing and Sentence of All the Apostles and Elders assembled at Jurusalem. And as 'twas determined by Them thus in Body, 'twas received by the Faithful with consolation; not only at Antioch; but in all other Places, wheresoever the Gospel of Christ was preached by the Apostles, who as they went through the Cities delivered them the Decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders, who were at Jerusalem, Act. 16. 4. This was the Practice of the Apostles, as it stands recorded in Holy Writ, providentially there described, that their Successors, the Rulers and Pastors of the Church in future Ages, from this Authentic Precedent, might be provided of a Means whereby to maintain a Unity in Faith amongst all True Believers, however spread throughout the different and divided Nations of the Universe, and know how to give a check to all growing Schisms and Heresies. As therefore the Apostles put a stop to this Debate concerning the Circumcision, by determining in Council, in what manner the Faithful were to be taught, were to believe and do in this Particular; and by this Determination preserved the Unity of Spirit in the Bond of Peace amongst the Faithful, and prevented the many Divisions, which otherwise might have torn the Flock asunder, had they been every one lest to their own thoughts, to judge of it as they pleased. In like manner did the Pastors of the Church succeeding them in their Charge, in the like Circumstances: for when there appeared any entering in among the Flock, (as was foretold by St. Paul, Act. 20. 29.) and like grievous Wolves not sparing it, but speaking Perverse things to draw away Disciples after them: The Overseers, who were to feed the Church of God, and commanded by the same Apostle, to Watch and take heed to all the Flock (ib. v. 28.) assembled in Council, and by their Determination declared to all under their Charge the Faith delivered, and directed them which way to believe, as to the Point in debate. This was the Practice of the Primitive Church, when as yet acknowledged Pure and Uncorrupted. Thus did the Pastors then in the First General Council at Nice, decide the Controversy raised by Arius: thus they did in the Second at Constantinople; in the Third at Ephesus; in the Foutth at Chalcedon. The Faithful always receiving with great Veneration the Determination of their Pastors thus Assembled; and looking upon this Submission to their Doctrine, as the most Reasonable Means, whereby to secure themselves from falling into Error. And this same Method, thus happily begun by the Apostles, and continued on by the Practice of the Primitive Church, it is which he observes in every Article of his Faith; there being no one Point, amongst all those controverted amongst Christians, which he assents to, but as derermined by the Pastors of the Catholic Church assembled, who have the care of the Flock; and whom, by the command of Christ and his Apostles, he is bound to submit to and obey. Misrepresent. This is the very thing I charge you with: for, pray now, what do you make of all this? Is not this pinning your Faith upon other men's sleeves? Is not this shutting your own Eyes, and running blindfold after other men's Fancies? Represent. Speak sincerely, Misrepresenter, and done't dissemble. Don't I do in this the very thing prescribed by Christ himself; commanded and practised by the Apostles and faithful then living, and followed by the Church of the purest Ages? And if this be running blindfold with you, and pinning of my Faith upon other men's sleeves; what do you, in the mean time, make of the Bible, which gives these Directions? Are not you a great Dissembler in pretending a veneration to that Divine Law, while you contemn and ridicule the Doctrine it delivers! Misrepresent. God has given you Reason to examine and weigh things, and to guide yourself: and this wilful slavery is not well pleasing to Him, by which you let other men's Imaginations tyrannize it over your own Reason and Judgement. Represent. In observing the Rule I have laid down to you as to my Belief, I make use of the best of my Reason, and follow it to the utmost of my endeavours. For since God has been pleased to appoint and ordain Pastors and Overseers, to feed and take care of the Flock; my Reason tells me, 'tis more prudent and safe for me, to Obey and submit myself to them (Heb. 13. 17.) and to follow their Faith (v. 7.) upon the warrant of God's Command; than forsaking them, to follow my own Private judgement, without any other authority than of my own Confidence and Presumption. Tell me, Misrepresenter, does not thy Reason tell thee, 'tis more reasonable to think, that three, four or six hundred Able and Learned Pastors met together out of the several Parts of Christendom, in a concern properly belonging to their Place and Charge, can Reason consider, weigh and judge of it better than One of the Flock? If so, why do you slander me, for shutting my Eyes, and hoodwinking my Reason; whenas I, in submitting to the Consideration and Judgement of so many, do govern myself more according to Reason than you, who contemning so great a Number, chose rather to follow one, who being your own self, are likely to incur the censure commonly given to those, who will be both Masters and Scholars to themselves? Those therefore that defame the Papists, for having no good Reasons for their Religion and Worship, there's some reason to think, begin to talk of Reason, before they are throughly acquainted with it, or know well what it is. Misrepresent. Come stop here a little, if you can. Have you seen the Answer to your First Sheet. He accuses you of transcribing in substance what was writ upon the same Subject in the First Part. Represent. He's Angry: so no great fear of him. His first attempt, is to undervalue his Adversary: but this wont do with Understanding Men. For though it were, as he says, They know what is True must of necessity be always the same, and cannot be repeated too often. And as for Repetitions, though it were in the Afternoon of what was said the very same Day in the Morning, you know, as the World goes, is no great Reflection. And for the First Part 'tis now near two years since 'twas published. Misrepresent. You discredit and reject the Divines and Schoolmen. Represent. No, I only blame those, who endeavour to spoil their Neighbour through Philosophy, and vain deceit. (Coloss. 2. 8.) disturbing the Faithful with Speculative Notions, allowable enough within School-walls; but easily made use of by ill men amongst Crowds to the confusion of all Religion. I'll let them wrangle about Worship Absolute and Relative, as they do about seeing: but tell me, must I shut my eyes, or say, I don't see; because they can't agree, how and in what manner I see? Misrepresent. You trim up Similitudes and Resemblances: but done't at all state the case, or show what we are to trust to. Represent. I know of little more there is in the whole case, besides the Equivocation about the Word Worship. You find this Expression of Worshipping Images, in some of our Books; and in the Catechism ad Parochos, 'tis said, they are set up, ut colantur, to be worshipped. And here you presently catch at this, and run away with it in Triumph, boasting to your unthinking Auditory, that you have proved the Papists Idolaters out of their own Books and Councils, because they profess a Worship due to Images. But do you hear; don't be too hasty in passing Sentence, and drawing Consequences; 'tis easy out-running all the bounds of Charity, if you are too much upon the spur in this affair. You and yours, Misrepresenter, aught to consider, that this one and the same Word Worship signifies very different Conceptions, and almost as many sorts of Respect, Honour and Veneration, as there are different degrees of Excellency in the World. There's an Honour due to Parents, and this is properly called in Latin Colere Parents, to worship or honour our Parents. There's an Honour due to Magistrates, which may be termed a Worship, as by their Title they are styled Worshipful. There's an Honour due to Kings, which in Scripture is expressed by Adoring or Worshipping; as in 1 Chron. 29. 20. where 'tis said; All the Congregation— bowed down their heads, and Worshipped the Lord and the King. There's an Honour due to the Martyrs or Saints departed, which is likewise called a Worship; and therefore St. Augustine says expressly (Contr. Faust. l. 20. c. 2.) We Worship the Martyrs, with that Worship of Love and Society, with which even in this life Holy Men of God are Worshipped— But we Worship them (the Martyrs) so much the more devoutly, because more securely. There's again a certain Reverence and suitable Respect due to some Things, which have an eminent Relation to God and his Service (as the Answerer) here confesses, p. 5.) such are the Bible, the Images of Christ, etc. and this certain Reverence and Respect is termed likewise Worship, so 'tis properly said, Colere Imaginem Christi, Colere Sancta Evangelia. There's an Honour, in sine, due to God, which is called still by some Word, Worship: in Greek Latria, as St. Augustine, ib. has it, which is a certain service properly due to the Divinity, with which we neither Worship the Martyrs, nor teach them to be worshipped, but God alone. Do you see, Misrepresenter, how many different Conceptions of the Mind, and Affections or Motions of the Heart, are expressed by this one and the same Word, Worship? And all these the Papists give to these several Objects, due proportion being always observed, according to their different Degree of Excellency. So that though they are all called by the same Name of Worship, yet it signifies a different Affection of the Soul as due to each respective Object. Upon this hinge turns this Controversy, and if you would be so sincere, as to explicate this Truth, and not presently make every thing Idolatry, where you see a Worship paid, much of this Unchristian Wrangling, which has disturbed the World these hundred and fifty years, might be prevented for the future. Mr. Thorndike was so honest, as to give this notice to his Readers. (Epilogue. p. 3. p. 353.) Where he says, that the words, Adoration, Worship, Respect, Reverence, or howsoever you translate the word Cultus, are or may be, in despite of our hearts, equivocal: and the cause of this equivocation is the want of Words, properly to signify Conceptions, which came not from common use. St. Augustine declared this Truth long ago (l. 10. de Civit. Dei, c. 1.) where he shows all these Words, Servitus, Cultus, Religio, Pietas. Service, Worship, Religion, Piety to be Equivocal, and may be applied both to God and Creatures. And thus Catholics many times use them, without the least entrenching upon the Divine Prerogative, or scandal to their Neighbour, which had never been heightened to that degree as is at this day; had not some, as the Pharisees did to our B. Saviour, stood by, and taken as much pains to wrest every thing into a Wrong Sense, as Charity obliges to interpret in a Right one. And as Worship is understood in all this latitude, 'tis hard to make it out, that Men are to pray to every thing they Worship: or that Prayer is necessarily depending on it. But then again, if the Catechism by his Praying to, means no more, than Praying at or before Images, I have nothing to say to it. I only complained of it, because by his Expression, as it stands there, he seems willing to have his Reader understand it, that the Papists so pray to Images, as if they expected to be heard by them, or that They should obtain or grant their Request, which is a most foul Misrepresentation. But as for Praying before them, 'tis what we own and Practice. And since to, at and before come to be all one with him; let the Words of Abjuration quoted by Spelman, be thus Understood; as Dr. Stillingfleet makes Bowing to the Name of Jesus and at it, (Idol. of Ch. R. p. 111. Ed. 1.) to be the same, and then it plainly declares our Doctrine, and we shall not fall out much upon this matter. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. VI The Papist does not believe, but upon most Convincing Reasons: Mysteries of Faith above Reason, not contrary to it. The Papist is not deprived of the Word of God, nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel. He does not Pray to the Cross, more than Protestants pray to their Bibles, or the Sacrament. Three Protestant Queries Answered. THe Papist Misrepresented knows no reason for the Religion he professes. He's overruled by Authority, and is forced to submit his Belief to such Points, as are contrary to his Reason. He's deprived of the Word of God, and kept in a miserable Ignorance of his Duty both to God and his Neighbour. THe Papist Represented very commendably inquires into the Reasonableness of his Belief: He searches into the Motives of his Faith, and here applies all the Reason he is able, to Examine, Consider, Weigh and Judge of things aright; not taking one step forward in order to give the least assent by Faith, till his Judgement is thoroughly convinced, that in Reason he's bound to do it; and that he should be self-condemned by his own Knowledge or Conscience, if he did not submit, upon such Evidence and full conviction. This is what he is taught to do, as to the Motives or Reasons of his Believing all those Points, which are purely Mysteries of Faith. But although he has good Reason, for giving his assent by Faith, to all the Articles of Christian Religion: Yet because the greatest part of them are above his Reason, and therefore properly called Mysteries, he cannot pretend to measure them by his unbiased Reason, no more than take the dimensions of the Heavens by his Span, which are out of his reach. For how can Reason without a daring Presumption, undertake to fathom such things, which however agreeable to the Infinite Understanding of God, bear no proportion with any Created Faculties whilst encompassed with Flesh? In the Mysteries therefore of his Faith, his Reason is overruled by Authority; so that in these, he goes much farther than his Reason will carry him. His Reason indeed, directs him to the Authority; but then having discovered this, his Faith follows with Certainty and Security, where Reason can give her no Light. Misrepresent. Upon this account it is, I declare to my Followers, that the Papists believe without Reason; that whosoever will be a Papist, must cast a Blind over all his Rational Faculties, and by a slavish Obedience submit his Faith without control. Represent. And for this very reason you are a Misrepresenter, and slander the Papists. For the Papists use their Reason, as much as any Protestant in the World can do. I have told you already, they apply their Reason to search with the strictest scrutiny, into all the Motives, which are apt to make a thing Credible, and never Submit their Faith, but where their Reason, upon the strongest and most convincing Arguments, obliges them to it, and that so forcibly, that 'twould be a contradiction to their Reason not to submit. Can any Protestant do more than this? Misrepresent. Yes; We search into the very Mysteries of the Christian Faith, and believe no farther, than is agreeable to our Reason, at least so as not to be against it. A Protestant, by his Religion, is so reasonable a Creature, that no Authority in the World can oblige him to believe contrary to his Reason: he'll believe things above his Reason; but not contrary to it. Represent. Thus you deceive yourselves and all that follow you. Why, all this is nothing but what the Papists are taught to do. You pretend to Reformation; condemning the Papists, for going Blindfold; and yet what you do, is downright Popery. There's no Papist in the World is taught to believe contrary to Reason; they believe such Mysteries, as are above Reason; but nothing contrary to it. Let me examine you a little in this Point, and we shall soon find, what agreement there is betwixt us. You believe the Mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation? Misrepresent. Yes. Represent. But can any Protestant Reasoning discover, or even apprehend, how there can be three distinct Persons in One Divine Nature undivided? or how God could be made Man, be Born, Suffer, and Die? But not to go so high: Can you conceive it as agreeable to your Reason; How all this World could be made out of Nothing? Can you conceive, What Eternity is; to be without beginning or ending? For the Bodies of all the Sons of Adam to rise from the Dead, after having passed through so many successive Corruptions? How the Bodies of the Just shall become Spiritual, and put on Incorruption: And those of the Wicked be tormented for ever as long as God shall be God? Can you conceive, apprehend, or by your Reason tell, How these things can be? Can your Reason by being Protestant, open unto you these Mysteries? And I hope, you believe them with a firm and undoubting Faith. Misrepresent. Yes, I believe them all: and, to speak plainly, I think they are far above the reach of all Humane Reason. Man may endeavour to explicate them by Similitudes, or some proportion in Nature; but these still fall much short of the real Truth of those Mysteries: and he that thinks he comprehends them, does only deceive himself, and like those who try to look the Sun full in the Face, see nothing, by presuming to see too much. However, notwithstanding this great disproportion the Mysteries of Christian Religion bear with humane Reason, yet I believe them all with a firm and certain Faith, to be true upon the Authority of God revealing them, who is Truth itself. Represent. Spoke like a Christian; and if all Protestants would join with you, in this Sentiment, there would not be so many Reasoning Atheists in the World as there are. But give me leave, Misrepresenter; Is it not a very spiteful and un-neighbourly Trick, that whilst you thus in private, profess and own so sovereign a Truth as this, and that you believe such Mysteries, according to your Religion, which your Reason can neither see nor understand: Yet when you come to appear in Public, and are to win the favour of the People by declaiming against Popery; you then dress out this in the Papists, as the greatest piece of nonsense in the World; 'tis then nothing but going blindfold, laying aside Reason, a slavish Submission, and a thousand worse things besides? Come, let me tell you, this your putting on at pleasure different Faces, is no credit to your cause: And it makes some begin to think, That many of your Popular Harangues, have more of Policy in them, than Religion; that they drive more at keeping up a Party, than saving of Souls. Otherwise, why should you in public set that forth as Ridiculous in the Papists, which in your more sober conversation between Friends, you profess yourselves, and own as Reasonable and Christian? Misrepresent. This is nothing better than raillery. Why, I don't blame the Papists upon this account; I only pity and condemn them, because, Poor Souls! they are forced to take up all Religion upon trust; they are not allowed the use of the Bible; and so cannot examine by their own Reason the Doctrine of Christ, and Mysteries of his Faith; but without all Seeing or Reasoning, must take all that's given them for Good; and so are merely led Captives, depending wholly upon the Will of their Ignorant Guides; and if they will but say as they say, they are Good Catholics, tho' they understand not a Word. This is it I call going Blindfold, hood-winking of Reason, and slavish Obedience. Represent. You are come now to your Popular Topic; and yet you cannot turn yourself in it, without Misrepresenting, deceiving and stretching your Stories beyond the bounds of Truth. You please your people, by putting the Bible into their hands, encouraging them to search the Scriptures, to find out the Truth, that so the Word of Christ may dwell richly in them in all Wisdom. Then you tell them of the great Blessing they enjoy, in as much as their lot is not fallen in those unhappy Places, where the people can by no means procure the Reading of the Bible, cannot come to the Knowledge of the Word of God, or of their Duty, but must walk in Darkness, and see no Light. Misrepresent. Well; and is not this true? Represent. 'Tis like the Truths you generally tell, when you rail against the Papists. It has a little of Truth in it, and the Greater Part False. It has a Truth for the Foundation; but than you raise so many False Constructions, Wrong Inferences, and Misapplications upon it, that the Truth is violently bore down, and almost sunk into nothing. Misrepresent. Come let me take my Turn: You Catechised me in one Point; now let me examine you in another. Do you Believe the Bible to be the Word of God? Represent. Yes; I believe it to be the Word of God; that it contains the Doctrine of Christ, and as such I am commanded to Respect, Honour and Reverence it: and so I do sincerely; desiring rather to lose my life, than contemn or injure that Sacred Volume. Misrepresent. Do you think it convenient for the People, to Know and Understand the Doctrine it delivers? Represent. I think it not only convenient, but also necessary for them to Know and Understand it; and that Salvation is not attainable by those, who do not do as is there commanded, or do not believe as is there taught. Misrepresent. Why then do you deprive the Vulgar and Ordinary People of this Holy Food of their Souls, which you judge Necessary for their Salvation? Why do you take the Light out of their Hands, and force them to walk in darkness▪? Represent. The Ordinary People and Vulgar of our Communion have more of this Holy Food, are better served with this Light of Truth, than those of any other Persuasion whatsoever: and 'tis nothing but an Aspersion of yours, to say They are deprived of this Bread of Life, and are left without Means of knowing their Duty to God and their Neighbour. Do you but consider a little, Misrepresenter; Are those People deprived of the Word of God, who are taught it by their Pastors, by God's Appointment, ordained to teach them? Or does he take the better course to be instructed in his Christian Duty, who leaving his Pastors, goes about to teach himself? Men done't generally think that Flock to be deprived of its food, which is carefully fed by the Shepherd; neither is that Sick Man left without Means for his Cure, who receives Prescriptions from the Physician, without having the liberty of the apothecary's Shop, to take what best suits with his Taste or his Fancy; where tho' all be Good, if rightly applied, yet 'tis easy mistaking the use of the Drugs, and taking Killing ones instead of Curing. Why then should you defame the Papists, as not having God's Word dwelling in their hearts; whenas, tho' they do not receive it generally by Reading it themselves; yet they are instructed in that Sacred Truth, and fed with it by the hands of their Pastors and Teachers, who by Commission from the Holy Ghost, are put over the Flock to take heed to it and Feed it? (Act. 20. 28.) Was Mary Magdalen deprived of the Word of God, who placed at her Saviour's Feet, heard it from his own most Sacred Mouth, tho' she had it not in Writing? Were those People deprived of the Word of God, to whom the Apostles were sent to Preach, for those several years before any of the Gospel was in Writing? 'Twas Preaching, Teaching and Instructing by Word of Mouth, was the Means appointed by Christ, for the planting his Gospel; and the Apostles, that were thus commanded to Preach, had never any Command to Write; their Writing was only Accidental, occasioned by reason of their Absence from those, whom accidentally they desired to advise and direct. If since then the Papists are taught and instructed in the Word of God, the very same way, that Christ himself, the Unerring Rule, taught all those that followed him: Since they are instructed in it, the same Way the Apostles themselves observed and commanded; by Submitting to, and Obeying. Those that are Over them and are to give an account of their Souls. (Heb. 13. 17.) Why do you say, they are deprived of the Word of God, or robbed of the Gospel? When you say the Vulgar Sort of the Papists have not the Written Letter of the Gospel promiscuously put into their hands, you say True; and if you would say no more, we should have no complaints against you. But when besides this, you instill into your Followers, that the Papists are left in Darkness, that the Word of God is hid from them, These Applications, and Inferences are the Work of thy Hands, Misrepresenter; and put into plain English, prove no more, than that every one, that has a Light carried before him by an abler Man than himself, does certainly walk in the Dark, because he has not the Light in his own Hands. Misrepresent. Come, I am not for disputing: If you have any more upon this Subject, keep it till next time. Your Second Sheet has been blown up in a Reply. He there briskly shows, that Your Representing, is Palliating and Glozing: That you grow weary of your Religion as formerly practised and defended, and that in all likelihood, you are hastening a pace to a Reformation. Represent. 'Tis your old Trick, when the Reasons begin to come close and pinch, to take refuge in starting another Game. But, let's hear; Is not the Answerer you speak of, a Protestant, a Member of the Pretended Reformation? Why then should he reprove Us, if it be true what he says, for being weary of our Religion as formerly Practised, and hastening to a Reformation? Is it not commendable to Reform? If he thinks that unreasonable, which was formerly Practised, and is of opinion, that we are Weary of it and Reform; what Reason has he to complain, or reproach us for it? 'Tis a very hard Case, that we should be scoffed at and publicly condemned as Abetters of what was formerly practised; and reproved again, for being supposed to Reform it. If it was ill to maintain it, can it be ill too to amend it? The Papists then, it seems, whether they are supposed to go on as before, or to reform, are certain to be run down; as if Figulus Figulo, did extend even to our Case, and no Reformer could speak well of another Reformer. But do ye hear, Misrepresenter, here's a Mystery in this, which I am confident you are something concerned in; you must not take it ill, if I discover it. This new Pretext of the Papists being weary of their Religion, as practised heretofore, and hastening to a Reformation, is nothing but a pretty contrived Shelter, for the Adversaries of the Papists to retire under, to save their Reputation. They have been declaiming against the Papists these hundred and fifty years, and endeavoured to set out their Religion so deformed in every Point with Idolatry, Superstition, and Impiety, that to their Credulous Followers, they have made it more eligible to be a Jew than a Papist; and with their Prophet Luther, have convinced infinite Numbers, that such Christian Princes as own the Pope, are four times worse than the Mahometans; and that 'tis more probable, the Grand Vizier fights the Lords Battles, and deserves the Good Wishes of Christendom, rather than They. In this Charitable Belief have Many bred up their Flock. And now since of late, through a favourable Ray of Mercy, the Papists have had some liberty of showing themselves, and in their Sermons, in their Catechisms, in their Expositions of their Faith, both in Word and Writings, there appears nothing of the Monster so long foretold; there's some danger, this should beget in the People a Jealousy and Suspicion of their Teachers, and be a caution to them, of not easily trusting those, who have for so many years deceived them. What then is to be done? Why, it must be given out, that the Papists are charged; that they are weary of their Religion as practised heretofore; that their Way of delivering it, is now less Offensive than in former ages. And under this Cover the Credit of all such who have painted the Papists out otherwise than They now appear, is to be saved, and they cleared from the most foul Imputation of Misrepresenting. Misrepresent. You'll run on now upon this Topic, and say not one word to the Body of the Answer. He proves, You Pray directly to the Cross, from Your Consecrating and Blessing the Cross: From your kneeling down to it, worshipping and adoring it. Represent. Nothing of this reaches the Point▪ unless he had first proved that every thing that is Blessed and Consecrated, and to which a Worship or Adoration is any way paid, is directly prayed to. And this will be a difficult Task: For as We Bless and Consecrate Crosses; so likewise we Bless and Conjecrate Churches, Altars, Holy Water, Chalices and other Vessels dedicated to Holy uses. And I don't think he'll impute it to us, that we Pray directly to Churches, Altars, Holy Water or Chalices. There's a Blessing or Consecration for Protestant Churches; there's a Blessing and Consecration again for their Sacramental Bread and Wine: and yet a Protestant would but smile at the Undertaker, who should prove from hence; that They Pray to their Churches and their Sacrament, because they are Blessed and Consecrated. But we Worship and Adore the Cross, and then, why, says he, is it more absurd to pray to the Cro●s, than it is thus to adore it? And to this Question let Bishop Jewel, a Father of his own Church give him an Answer. We only adore Christ (says he in his Reply against Hard, p. 379.) as very God, but we Worship also and Reverence the Sacrament, we Worship the Word of God, we Worship all other things in such Religious wise to Christ belonging. And now let my Answerer guests, whether every thing that is Worshipped or Adored, may be directly prayed to. Does he think Bishop Jewel prayed directly to the Sacrament? does he think He prayed to the Bible, and yet he owns, he Worshipped them Both? And in this WE Worship, he expresses himself so like a Witness of the Doctrine of his Church, that if our Modern Divines have not prevaricated from their Fathers, and brought in New Protestantism, being wea●y of the Old, all the Sons of that Church, are obliged to Worship them, as much as that Prelate; and this they may easily find a way to do, without any necessity of praying to them directly. 'Tis not every thing that is any ways Worshipped, is presently made an Ob●ect capable of being Prayed to. I showed in my Last, many things to be in some manner Objects of Worship, which to Pray to would be an Absurdity. For as Bishop Jewel Worshipped the Sacrament and Bible, so we Worship the Bible too; and as we Worship the Cross, so likewise the Holy Sepulchre, the H●m of our Saviour's Garment, his Crown of Thorns, the very Ground on which his Sacred Feet stood, and the Linen in which his Body was laid; not as God, nor as Things capable of being prayed to; but as Bishop Jewel expresses it, as Things in Religious wise to Christ belonging, or as the Answerer has it, as Things, which have an eminent Relation to God and his Service. And Jewel gives the Reason (ib. p. 409.) The Sacraments be adored, says he, but the whole honour resteth not in them, but is passed over from them to the things signified. As the Reverence shown to a Bible, or Church, or Chair of State resteth not in them, but passes over to God and the King. And as the Contempt shown to a Duke's Picture or Pope's, resteth not there, but passes over to the Persons Represented. This Nature, Honest Reason, and Practise easily understand, however Learned Wranglers, whose business is to overthrow, not to build up, may endeavour to confound it. But we must Answer his Queries. Quer. Whether the Crosses used in the Religious Service of the Church of Rome be mere Pieces of Wood? Answ. Nothing more capable of being Prayed to, than mere Pieces of Wood Quer. Whether they may not, and are not to adore the Cross, though they may not adore a mere Peice of Wood? Answ. Just as much as Bishop Jewel thought himself obliged to adore the Sacrament, though he would not adore a mere piece of Bread. Quer. How the Cross which they Pray to Christ to Bless, is made the Stability of Faith, and Increase of Good Works? Answ. Just as the Bread and Wine may be to Protestants, by being a Figure of Christ's Passion, and a Remembrance of his Sufferings. Quer. How the Cross upon which Christ hung, may be Christ who hung upon the Cross? Answ. How the Cross may be Christ I can't tell. But how the Word Cross may signify Christ, every Schoolboy knows; as David in his Psalms often distinguishes the Earth from the People upon the Earth: And yet often uses the Word Earth to signify the People upon the Earth. This is but a poor Cavil, and very unbecoming Christians or Scholars to disturb the Nation withal. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's most Excellent Majesty for His Household and Chapel. 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. VII. The Vulgar among the Papists not deprived of the Word of God. They are better instructed in the true Sense of it, than those of other Persuasions who teach themselves. The Unlearned and Unstable wrest it to their own Destruction. A Papist Misrepresented takes up all his Belief upon trust; he is led through all the Mysteries of his Religion by the hand, without seeing which way, or whether he goes. All from beginning to end is blindness and ignorance: the Scripture which should be his light, is taken from him; and, what knowledge can he have when the Word of God, which was ordained by the divine Wisdom, for the instruction and comfort of poor Sinners, is snatched out of his hand, and kept from him? A Papist Rerepresented believes as the Church of God teaches, and this not blindly; but knowingly and understandingly, as far as the littleness of humane Reason, and his own Capacity will give him leave. In order to this, his Church has provided him of variety of learned Books, explicating to him the Sense of the Scriptures, as likewise the Articles of his Creed, every Mystery of his Religion, the ten Commandments, the Sacraments, and the whole Duty of a Christian; and this in such numbers, both in Latin and English, and all other Languages, that whosoever reproaches him with blindness, in the midst of so many Lights, may with as good Reason prove him to be in the dark, when Noonday shines upon him. Besides these Books, the Church has given direction to all Parish-Priests, to explicate on Sundays and holidays, the Gospel and some Mystery of Faith, to such as are under their Charge, and to instruct them, how to live virtuously, and die holily. And now, if notwithstanding these helps and assistance, some in his Church believe without Understanding, and live without the knowledge of their Duty; 'tis not the Church is to be blamed, which has provided them of sufficient Means, but they themselves to be condemned of negligence and sloth, who thus carelessly starve in the midst of plenty, and die with the Remedy before them. Neither does he understand, that the charge of being led in blindness and ignorance, can be justly laid to any, even to the Vulgar of his Communion, because they have not the Scriptures permitted them to read and interpret at pleasure; since 'tis evident to any, that has taken a considerate view of the Christian World, in those Countries, where the Scripture is thus permitted, there's as much Vice, as much Blindness, as much Ignorance, of the Christian Faith, and Profession, as in any place whatsoever: So that though they have a Light about them, they are either not taught how to use it; or else approaching it with too much Confidence and Presumption, come too near it and put out their eyes. Besides, what danger of Ignorance and Blindness can there be to the Vulgar of his Communion, from the not reading the Scripture; Since such means are used for the instructing them in the Mysteries therein contained, that they are not at all deprived of it; nay since 'tis delivered to them, with much greater advantage, and more for the improvement of their knowledge in the Mysteries of Faith, and Duty of a Christian, than those have it amongst whom 'tis promiscuosly thrown, to read and judge it themselves? For let any one, upon a due consideration, tell me; Which is the Scripture, what is properly the Word of God? Is it the Words of the Bible, or the true Sense and Meaning, of those Words? 'Tis certain the letter availeth nothing; 'tis the Spirit that enlivens, 'tis the Sense that instructs to Salvation. Our concern then at present, is not, which have more of the Words of the Scripture in their Memory, more Texts, at their tongue's command, more of the Books in their hands; but 'tis, where more care is taken, for imprinting the true Sense of these Words in the Understanding of the People, and where is used the most prudential method, for the leading them into the truth of all the Mysteries contained in that sacred Volume? And in this Point the Papist will yield to none: for it is an unquestionable truth, that when a Book contains high Mysteries of Religion, Mysteries superior to all Sense and Reason, and those not delivered in expressions suited to every capacity, but obnoxious to various interpretations, such as may be wrested by the unlearned and unstable to their own Destruction: 2 Pet. 3. 16. in this case 'tis an unquestionable truth, I say, that that People is in all probability, likely to have more of the true Sense of this Book, and to be better informed of the truth of the Mysteries it contains, who are instructed in it by the Learned of that Communion, and taught it by their Pastors, Prelates, and those whom God hath placed over them to govern and feed the Flock; than any other People, who have the Book put into their own hands, to read it and search it, and satisfy themselves. For why? Are not the Pastors more capable of teaching the People, than the People are to teach themselves; Or is it commendable in Scripture only and Religion, for every one to be his own Master, which in any other matter, whosoever does it, shall be esteemed a Fool? We know Moses (Deut. 31. 9) gave the Book of the Law to the Levites to keep and read it every seven years to the People: and in King Jehoshaphats reign (2 Chron. 17. 9) the Priests and Levits did read it and teach the People; so did Jeremy (Jer. 36.) by God's command; so Isaiah, so Ezekiel; so the Levits (Nehemiah 8. 8.) Read in the Book, in the Law of God distinctly, and gave the Sense and caused them the People to understand the Reading. And did not our Blessed Saviour (Luc. 4. 17.) take the Book of the Prophet and read it, and expound it to the People? And was not this the Office of the Apostles and Deacons to interpret the Scriptures, and instruct their Followers, what they were to believe and do? For this intention was Ananias sent to Saul, Peter to Cornelius, and Philip to the Eunuch, who professedly owned, he could not understand the Prophet in so necessary a Point, as that of the Messias, without an Interpreter: How can I understand, said he, except some man should guide me? (Act. 8. 31.) Since therefore the Papists in delivering the Scripture come nearest to this Method, commanded by God in the Old Law, prescribed and practised by Christ and his Apostles in the New; what People can be better instructed in the true sense of it, and understand more of the Mysteries of the Christian Faith, than they? With what Reason can it be urged against the Vulgar of his Communion, that the Scriptures are hid from them, that they are bred up in blindness and ignorance? Do not the Pastors expound the Scriptures to them, do not they instruct them in every Point of their Religion, and teach them the whole Duty of a Christian? Is it not this they do in their Pulpits, in their Catechisms, in the Confessionaries, in so many hundred spiritual Books, plainly laying before them their whole obligation, both as to Faith and Good manners? And is this to conceal from them the Scripture? Is the Word of God hid from them, because they have their Pastors to instruct them in it? Or are they any ways injured, because they have learneder men than themselves to teach them? Is the Multitude a better Judge of Scripture, and more able to discover the truth of it, than those, whom God has placed over them? Has God so deserted the Pastors and Prelates of his Church; and is the Flock of late become so Wise? The Faith of Christ was first planted by Christ's Preaching it to the Multitude; by the same way 'twas propagated by the Apostles, and so it is to be delivered down to the end of the World; Faith comes by hearing. By this means many Barbarous Nations, says St. Irenaeus l. 3. adv. har. c. 3. believe in Christ, have the Doctrine of Salvation written in their Hearts by the Holy Ghost without the help of Books, and religiously observe the Traditions, believing in one God, etc. Now 'tis certain the Truth of this Christian Faith, with all its Mysteries, is unquestionably preserved in Christ's Catholic Church, and the People are to receive it; and not to find out their Faith and Religion every one for themselves. If they are afraid of being deceived, when they rely on their Pastors for it; they run ten times the hazard, when they trust to themselves. The Papist therefore is taught, that since Christ has a Church upon earth, in which is conserved the truth of the Gospel; 'tis safer and more prudential for the People to be instructed in this Truth, from the Pastors of this Church, and by this means come to the Knowledge of the Word of God, that is, of its true sense and meaning; than by committing the Book itself into the hands of the Multitude, and letting every one understand it for themselves: He knows 'tis a very popular thing, and acceptable to the prying Multitude, to have a Book at command, which directs the Way to Salvation: but since 'tis not the Book is to save him, but the Truth and Doctrine which it teaches, he believes 'tis better learning this from those who are Wiser, and are commissionated from Heaven to teach, than to venture at it himself without any Authority. The unhappy Divisions among Christians sufficiently inform him, that to such Readers as St. Peter calls unreary and ignorant, however wise they may think themselves, A●ianism may be as obvious in this Book as Christ's Divinity, and that when such an one undertakes the interpreting of it, 'tis an hazard, whether at the end he comes out, Quaker, Anabaptist, Presbyterian, Independent, Mugletonian, Socinian or Atheist: 'Tis a Venture whether the Trinity shall have place in his Creed or no; whether he'll allow of Baptism or any Sacrament; and whether Cruelty, cutting of Throats, Oppression, Tyranny, Dethroning of Kings and Murder of Princes, shall not with him become a necessary Duty, and a true serving of the Lord. For all these, and more damnable Doctrines has he seen preached up and practised by those, who have had the Bible in their Banners, who have been esteemed Searchers of the Word of God, and presumptuously made their Comments upon this Sacred Text. And is it not this abuse, that has occasioned so many Schisms, and almost broken the Mystical Body of Christ into pieces? That whereas all his Followers should be of one mind, now no body knows, what Religion his Neighbour is of: but every Wall now parts Religions, more than Seas did heretofore: And the whole is come to be no more than a Persuasion, a Judgement, an Opinion. And now since these, and infinite other mischiefs arise, from the free permitting the Bible among the Multitude; he thinks it commendable in his Church, out of a true. Solicitude for the Salvation of Souls; to prevent these evils, by teaching them the true Sense of this Sacred Volume, and instructing them in their whole Duty, as to all they are to believe and practice, without leaving the Book to be scanned by them as they please; and so not permitting them to turn the Food of their Souls into Poison, or abuse that to theit Destruction, which was ordained by Christ for their gaining of Heaven. They are not therefore deprived of the Holy Scripture, but have the whole benefit of it, and all the comfort; being instructed in the whole word of God; only with this Advantage, that 'tis not left in their power, to do themselves any mischief, by abusing it. And this is so ordered, only in consideration of the Vulgar, who are commonly very ignorant, unsteady, bold, presuming, or as St. Paul styles them, Unlearned and Unstable, and easy to be deceived; whilst judicious men of his Communion, any one that is Learned, Prudent and Sober, may be easily permitted to have the perusal of this Book, to read it as much, and as often as he pleases; because such are not in danger of prejudicing themselves by false interpretations, or preferring their own Sense, before that which they receive from their Pastors and the Church. 'Tis not the Book therefore that is properly forbidden, but only false and presumptuous interpretations of it, and such only who are in all probability likely to do this, are not permitted to read it. And upon the whole, there's nothing more in this great noise, of the Papist being deprived of the Word of God, than that such as for the most part are not capable amongst them, of reading it as they ought, have not leave to read it; and those that are capable, may have in most Country's leave to read it as they please. Those that can read it to edification, may have it at desire, and those that are likely to read it to the perverting of God's Holy Word, and the destruction of their own Souls, 'Tis thought fit, they should let it alone. Published with Allowance. London, Prnted by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. VIII. The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists, for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion, an Absurd Calumny. The Restraint is, That there may not be as many different Words of God, as there are 〈◊〉 amongst them; and may have something better ground that their own Imagination to direct their Faith; a word to a Lay-friend. Misrepresent. YOu gave me no room to put in one word in your last; but for all your long-winded Reasons there, why the Vulgar of your Communion do not generally read the Scriptures; I can apprehend no other, but only that your Priesis and Jesuits being conscious of the unreasonableness of Popery, and how contrary it is to the Truth of God's Word, dare not allow the People the reading and perusirg it, left finding their Religion not to stand the trial of the Scriptures, they should discover the delusion, and run over to the Reformation. Represent. I expect no better from you; 'tis your trade to make the worst of every thing the Papists do; but the best on't is, your Misconstructions lie so open, that there needs no more, than a mere glimpse of Reason to discover all your Art For if any of your Auditors should but once consider, that tho' the Vulgar and unlearned of the Papists have not in some Countries the Bible promiscuously allowed amongst them, yet that in those same Countries, and all others, there's no College, University, Community, or place of learning, but where the Scriptures are publicly read and expounded; if they should consider this, I say, Is it possible for them to believe, that that Restraint is upon the Vulgar, for fear they should see into the Foliys of their Religion? If their Religion were so contrary to Scripture, as you pretend, is it not more likely the learned should make this discovery in their reading the Bible, than the Vulgar, if they had the like liberty? Cannot Scholars as easily see the Truth of Scripture, and what is erroneous and at defiance with it, as the Unlearned? Or are the Errors and Foliys of Popery such, that of necessity a man must be a Blockhead to understand them? Since when became Mechanics and Apron-strings so privileged; that to be bred up to the Anvil, the Needle or the Ell should qualify better for the understanding the Scriptures, than application, Study, and the education of a University? Or is it probable that every man, amongst the Papists, no sooner becomes Scholar, but he turns Atheist? That upon their search in the Bible, they plainly see all the errors of their Religion, and yet are so bewitched as to go on boldly and jocundly to the Devil without speaking a word, or moving a step to save their own Souls or their Relations? Come, Misrepresenter, this looks so like a shame of yours, that I cannot but admire your confidence. I wonder how you dare venture your credit in exposing such weak and ill-grounded Arguments. You have men of sense and reason to deal with; and 'tis much they do not make exceptions. But I suppose you rely upon the hearty Prejudice they have against Popery, in which case you know they'll take upon trust, they'll pin their Faith upon any man's Sleeve, and let impossibilities pass for evident Truths, without examination. Misrepresent. You may prove, and preach, as long as you please; but I am sure thousands and thousands that I meet with, will never believe otherwise than I tell you. You do all things by design, and you have no other reason, notwithstanding all your loud pretences, for keeping the Eible out of the hands of your common people, but only the jealousy your Pastors have, that by that Light they'll see into the deformities of Popery, and prove Deserters. Represent. The men of this Creed are only such, whose Eyes you have put out, to lead them by the Nose after you, where you please. What ground can there be for this pretention, at least here in England, where the Bible in English, or Rhemes-Testament is to be found in most Catholic Families? If the Prohibition of not reading the Bible be, as you pretend, in other Countries, for fear of the Vulgar discovering the Errors of their Religion: How comes it, they don●t make this discovery here? Do you find so many Deserters in this Nation upon this score? Many have quitted that Communion upon other motives best known to themselves; but never any one I could meet with, left them yet by reading and following the Word of God. Again, if the reading the Scriptures is such a defeat to Popery, as you give out: Is it likely those, who have been bred up to the reading the Bible, and have made it their Study and Companion, should ever embrace that Communion? And yet, whosoever shall examine, will find the greater part of that Church here in this Nation, to have had their education, and grown up with the Bible in hand, and That too, not translated for the advantage of Popish Principles. Misrepresent. Let's have then your Reason, why the Holy Scriptures are not generally allowed to the Vulgar of your Church without exception. Represent. 'Tis, that there may not be as many different Bibles amongst them, as there are Heads: and that they may have something better than an Imagination to build their Salvation on. Misrepresent. This is all Paradox. Why, have the Protestants here in England, as many different Bibles as Heads? They all read the Bible, and yet 'tis but one and the same in all their hands. Represent. As to what's in their Hands, you are in the right: But see what's in their Heads: A little consideration will convince you, that what you call a Paradox, is nothing less than a Plain Truth: And that in reality there are as many Words of God amongst them, as Heads. I gave you a hint in our last discourse; That tho' the Book of the Scriptures does certainly contain the Word of God; yet to every Christian that reads it, 'tis the sense and meaning, and not the Letter is more properly the Word of God, for their instruction and direction. Now do you but reflect, in how many different senses, the Letter of the Bible is understood, and so many different Bibles will you find multiplied by your followers: And tell me, upon examination, whether this be much fewer than Heads. Misrepresent. This is still mysterious. Represent. Every thing is so to you, which is not for your purpose. Tell me, How do your people benefit by the Scriptures; is it by laying the Bible upon their Heads, and so understanding it: Or is it by the Sense and meaning in which they understand it? If it be by the sense and meaning; then just that is the Bible to every one, as the sense is, in which they conceive it. And if you can't apprehend this without longer explications; follow my directions, and you shall find it as evident as demonstration. Provide yourself well of Pen, Ink and Paper, and having done this, invite the first of your Congregation you meet, and if he be at leisure, desire him to give you an account of the sense, in which he understands the Scripture. Write you it down all at length as he delivers it: And having finished with him, go to another and do the like: Then to a third; so to a fourth and fifth, etc. Still laying by every one's volume by itself: And when you have gone as far as you think enough for your satisfaction, compare your Writings together, see how they agree; and remember that as different as you find them in the Doctrine of Christ, in the Mysteries of Faith, in the commands of the Apostles, etc. So many different Words of God have you. And as different as they are in your Papers, just so are they in the Heads of those who directed your Pen: Your Papers being nothing but a Transcript or Copy of such conceptions, as are laid up in their Heads for the express Doctrine of Christ, and unquestionable Word of God. Misrepresent. This is a pretty Chimoera, I confess: 'Tis much cheaper taking your explication, than making the experiment. Represent. Well, but what do you say to it? If you will not take the trouble, imagine it within yourself; and suppose it done by the Pens of ten thousand Angels. Don't you think there would be a pretty variety of Bibles? There would be This Man's Bible, and That man's Bible; Such an one's Bible, and Such an one's Bible; infinite numbers of Bibles. Misrepresent. You make a droll of these sacred matters. Why these would not be Bibles, nor different Words of God; but so many different Conceptions of the same Word of God. Represent. 'Tis you make the Droll, and I expose it to your shame. You think then these Transcripts would not be Bibles, nor so many words of God; and you are in the right; for they would be only so many Imaginations of theirs that frame them. But why do you delude the poor people in this manner; putting the Bible into their hands, and persuading them, they are guided by the Scriptures and the Word of God; whenas when you come to see what it is they steer by; you dare not own it for the Word of God; but their own imaginations? it being not the Book as it is in their Hands they are directed by, but as it is in their Heads. And to convince you again by a farther experiment, how far it is, as it lies there, from being the Word of God; take but those supposed Copies, we spoke of just now, and carry them to any Licenser of your own to examine, in order to be Printed and Published for the Word of God and Rule of Faith, and see whether you can find any will set them forward with an Imprimatar. And if it be absurd, even to suppose you could: What an Unchristian Imposture is it to let so many poor Souls go on, with a secure confidence of following the Word of God, and building their Salvation on it, when what they really follow and build on, is so far from being what they imagine, that, if exposed to public, 'twould pass for no better than some Religious Imaginations or Pious Dreams. 'Tis then for the avoiding these Inconveniencies, the Vulgar amongst us are not generally allowed the Bible. Our Church takes care to put the same Word of God into their Heads and Hearts, by instructing them all in its Doctrine, as it has been delivered down and practised in the Catholic Church in all Ages since the Apostles. Your Church puts the same Bible into the Hands of your Vulgar, but for their Heads and Hearts, it leaves them to take their venture, and here lies the difference between us. Misrepresent. Stop a little: Have you received your Answer from your Lay-Friend? He pinches closely. Represent. I fear he's too much your Friend, to be much Mine, or his own. I cannot but suspect him, since he pretends so great zeal for Truth, and brings so much Gall and Passion along with him, to conduct him to it. His open Profession (p. 10) where he says, I must tell my Mind freely, for I have vowed to follow Truth and Charity, wherever th●y lead me. And then his Resolate confession in the very next Page, where he thus declares; Thus much I'll confess, That I desire to live no longer than I can, if not speak, yet love and admire the Church of England 's sense; is a plain argument to me, he is one of your acquaintance, and that 'tis not to be expected, he should know or deliver truly the Doctrine of our Church, who is so unhappy as not to know his own Mind: But in one breath desires to be informed, and Vows to follow, wheresoever Truth ●or Charity shall lead him: and in the very next, without condition or reserve, desires rather to die, than to move one step from where he stands. No, this coming with Vowed Docility in one hand, and sturdy Presumption in the other, is no good Argument of Sincerity and Honesty, the qualities he so eagerly pretends to, and ungroundedly questions in me. Misrepresent. Well, but he has proved beyond the possibility of Reply, that the Papists are on the Uncharitable side, and Protestants on the Charitable, out of your own Authors; and your Charitable Doctrine to be new Popery. Represent. You have his Word for't. (p. 8.) But any besides a Layman, will call it only a Say-so, instead of a Proof. His Protestant Charity, which he even boasts of, is the granting Salvation to Papists, upon no other score, than Invincible Ignorance; and for this he thinks them, p. 6. Charitable to a high degree. And yet this is the very same Charity, Papists have for Protestants; the allowing of Salvation possible for such, as through invincible Ignorance remain separate from the Church, being a common opinion of the Modern and Ancient Schoolmen. And all those who pronounce so severely against Protestants; 'tis against Protestants remaining such, as he words it, (p. 8.) that is Obstinately and Pertinaciously continuing in Error and Schism; in which circumstances Papists too are allowed no claim to Salvation by Protestants. Now where's the Contradictions, and the two sorts of Popery he brags of? (p. 8.) Come, Misrepresenter, I look upon your Friends put to a hard shift, when they begin to talk of New Popery. They have been making the Papists odious these hundred Years, for their uncharitableness to Protestants, and now the Disguise begins to wear off, and the Papists appear as Charitable as Protestants, nothing can serve to amuse the people▪ and hinder their seeing the delusion, but the noise of New Popery. This may do with some, but methinks, a Sincere Layman, who desires to be led into all Truth (p. 5.) might be glad to find Men better than he thought them, and not seek for one disguise to palliate another. If his mind be tinctured with the Blood that runs in his Veins (p. 11.) yet assure him a Friend of his, wishes heartily 'twould flow something Cooler, and cause in him a more Even Pulse, than to require (as he does, p. 12) nothing less than an Infallible Certainty to better his Opinion of the Papists, whilst yet a Fallible Persuasion will content him, for all the rest of his Religion. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. MDCLXXXVI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. IX. The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person. No Possibility of meeting in One Faith, whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-story of the Frogs and Crabs. The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity. Misrepresent. YOur last attempt of Proving the Scriptures to be as various in the Heads of Protestants, as there are Heads amongst them, was very Bold; and I am persuaded now you are Cooler, you'll disown the Assertion. Represent. What I said, was to lay before you the Reason, why amongst the Catholics the Reading of the Bible is not promiscuously allowed the Vulgar. And to that end I showed you, that the Ordinary People in all Nations, being for the most part, Unlearned and Unstable, wheresoever the Canvasing the Scripture is freely permitted them without exception, they generally understand it several ways, and consequently what is the Scripture to Them, is Multiplied and made as Numerous, as their different Conceptions and Imaginations of it. And now I'll go farther with you: for 'tis not only thus in several People: but even the same Person many times has the Faculty of Multiplying the Word of God. For how many are to be found amongst the Vulgar, who according to their different Humours, as their Interest changes, according to the different Impressions they receive from Confidents, especially such as have gained their good Opinion, espouse different Doctrines and Persuasions, and run through as many Sects as there are Divisions in the Nation? And yet in all their Windings, they still follow, as they imagine, the Scriptures; always guiding themselves, by what, they think, the Word of God evidently speaks to them. Don't you see, how to these same Persons, the Word of God is not always the same? It altars according to Seasons and Times, and 'twas one Word of God directed them the last year; another this; and it may be another before the next. So that tho' it be always the same, Unchangeable in their Hands, as to the Letter yet it often changes in their Heads as the Meaning. Misrepresent. This is a fine Whim to undermine the Authority of the Scriptures▪ But say what you will, the Word of God is Plain, Easie and Clear; and God has given to every one Reason enough to Understand it; the Reading it is comfortable, the Following it a Duty. And 'tis an injury of the highest nature to deprive any, though the meanest Soul, of so considerable a Blessing. Represent. If it be so Plain and Easie, as you say; how comes it, there's so little agreement in the Understanding it? How are there so many Different and Contrary Divisions, Sects and Perswdsions in this One Nation? How comes it, that even in the Essentials of Christianity, concerning the Trinity, Incarnation, the Divinity of Christ, the Sacrament, Baptism, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the Forgiveness of Sins, the Resurrection of the Flesh, etc. there has been, and at present is so great diversity amongst those, that read the Scripture? The business is, you are for setting up every man's Private Reason to be Judge of Scripture: If you have seen the Answer to the Protestant Plea for a Socinian, you'll find there (p. 26.) he points it out for the Mark of a Right Socinian, to make Reason the Rule of the Scriptures; Such a one (says he) makes Reason the Rule of that Rule. And are not you far worse in this, than the Rankest Socinian in the World, whilst with him, you do not make Common Reason the Measure of that Rule, but every man's Private Reason; which when put to the Test, proves in Thousands and Thousands to be nothing better than Passion, Prejudice, Interest, Imagination, Guessing or Fancy? Don't you find by experience, there's no such Trivial Proposal made, but presently the Company's divided; there's Head against Head, Reason against Reason; and this, tho' the concern be but of Hay or Straw, or the most obvious in the World? Don't you see again, that almost every Man's Reason is different, as their Capacity, Parts, Education, Temper, Inclination, Impressions are different; and that as every Man has a Head of his own, so he has generally a Reason, or way of Reasoning of his own; nay, are not Men so Inconstant even with themselves too, that what is Reason to them at one time, is Unreasonable at another? How then can you set up a Thing so Slippery, so Weak, Various, Wavering, Changeable, Inconstant, as you see Private Reason is, to be relied on by every man, as his Guide in Scripture, and Judge of the word of God? Christian Faitb●, as you know from St. Paul, (Ephes. 4. 5.) is but One; and all Christians are directed by the same Apostle (1 Cor. 1. 10.) to meet in this one Faith, to be of one Spirit and one Mind, to say all the same thing, to avoid Divisions. Now how can you imagine it possible, for all Christians to concur in the same Belief, whilst the Scriptures being but One which they read, their Private Judgements give differing and contrary Interpretations of it, and carry them several ways? If Faith be to follow every Man's Private Reason, is it not impossible for the Faith to be One, whilst their Reason is so different? If the word of God, as it is One in itself, were also One and the Same in every Man's Private Judgement, 'twould certainly produce in all the Same Belief without distinction or Division. But as long as the Scriptures are no otherwise in people's Heads and Hearts, than by the Interpretation they make of it; their Faith must necessarily be as Various as their Interpretations; which being conform to their Private Reasons, there can be little grounds for Unity of Faith, whilst in their Reason there's so little agreement. 'Tis said of the Manna, that the Taste of it was not the same to all the Israelites; but that it relished according to that kind of meat, which was most grateful to every one's Palate. Now if the Israelites in Canaan had received a Command of bringing forth that sort of Meat, whose Taste should be like that of the Mánna, they eat in the Desert; is it possible they should all agree in their Dish; since though the Manna was the same they all fed on, yet the Relish was as different as their Tempers and Palates? This is our Case: All Christians that read the Holy Scriptures, look upon themselves commanded, to produce in their Hearts a Faith conform to that, they are taught in the Scriptures, which they read. And, what is special here, in this Faith they are all, without exception, commanded to agree, to be of one Mind, one Spirit: Now how is it possible their Faith should be the same in all, since the Scriptures do not make the same impressions on all, but as variously as are the Interpretations they frame of it, these being as different as their Private Judgement, their Reasons and Imaginations? Misrepresent. You set up Reason then against Scripture, and by your own Private Reasoning overthrow both. You are a very Reasonable Creature, it seems: but no body will think so besides yourself. The very Frogs and Crabs are a sufficient confutation of all your Pretences, either to Sense or Reason. Represent. Whether's the Man run now? Where about are you? Misrepresent. Not one step beyond Somerset-house and St. James ' s. I have only a mind to make you blush with the sense of your own stupidity, whilst you are so loudly laying claim to Reason. Is not your imposing upon the People with Crabs and Frogs, for the Souls coming out of Purgatory on the Anniverssaries of the Dead, a convincing Argument, that your Fancies are too big with Absurdities and Nonsense, to have much Reason amongst you? Represent, I am still in the dark, and see not where you are. Misrepresent. You are taught to deny, what you are ashamed to own: but the matter of Fact is beyond all question. I know a Gentleman, that would not lie for the matter, who saw the Crabs at St James 's in Black Crape Cases the last year, upon the edges of the Hearse-cloth, and immediately came and told it to an Acquaintance of his in the Pall-mall. Another Gentleman, a Friend of mine, upon the same day being invited by Curiosity into Somerset-house to see the Ceremony; after several other diversions, at last espied great numbers of little Movables upon the Mourning Black Cloth that covered the Pavement, diverting him with an uncertain mixed Motion, something betwixt Tumbling and Crawling. He could not here choose but ask what they were, and a good well meaning Catholic that stood next, told him, the Fathers were praying for the Dead: and those were the Souls released out of Purgatory, by their good Prayers. This put an edge to his Curiosity and Invention, and he never left them till coming near the Altar, he laid hands on One that was there a straggler, and cunningly slipped it into his Pocket. Represent. There's no coming for any Spectator within three or four yards of the Altar: the Rails keep all at a distance. Misrepresent. Oh! I know nothing of that matter: he was a Crafty Blade, and I am sure he did It; and by degrees making his way out, he went straight to a Tavern, where some Friends were waiting his coming. He made them a Relation of the whole matter; and immediately with great earnestness, they were all for having the Soul making its appearance, and seeing the inside of it. Whereupon One more courageous than the rest, ventured upon it, and having Vnripped the Case, presently something nimbly skipped out, to their great surprise. They began to fear now the Soul was fled: but a joyful Frog falling on the Table, glad at the release from its Purgatory-bag, put an end to the Comedy, filing them with laughter and sport, but most of all with Contempt of the Papists, who by such silly Inventions deceive the World, and cheat the Poor harmless people. Represent. And this is Gospel now, I'll warrant you, amongst your Flock Well, if there were nothing else in Popery to assure one of the Truth of that Religion so Nicknamed; yet to consider, with how many Wicked Lies, Malicious Inventions, Oatish and Bedloish Fables 'tis attacked, assaulted, and undermined, is enough to convince any one, that the Devil is its greatest Enemy, who by such Engines of Hell is so industrious for its overthrow. Were it so near allied to Satan▪ as you confidently delude your Followers, these Lies would be then indeed necessary to uphold, but not to defeat it. 'Tis strange to all Good Christians, how that at all times you can so keep alive a Continued Popish Plot in the Brains of some Protestants, that for every Fiction and Lie of yours, you have your Affidavit-men ready; you have always some in a Tavern, a Coffee-house at a Dinner or Supper▪ with Friends, that attest the Truth of your Malicious Reports; and stand for Eye-Witnesses of what had never any other Being, but what You gave it in Your Committee of Lies. These Crabs, these Frogs, these Christmas-Cradles, the Rockings, and Nursing and warming of Clouts, and some other Reports, that have been warmly carried about this last Month by Men of all Coats, came all out of the same Mi●t. And were it not that the People, you deal with, were so wonderfully short-memoryed when a Lie is discovered, and again so wretchedly Credulous when a Fresh one is Broached, these Fictions would be your utter Confusion. But I'll tell you the Truth of all this matter. There's a Mourning Hearse indeed placed in the Chapels in Memory of the Deceased Party; and Prayers are offered up for his Soul: after the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her Purity above Thirteen hundred years ago: and as 'twas then performed to Constantine the First Christian Emperor, whose Body, after his Decease, as 'tis related by Eusebius (l. 4. de Vit. Const. c. 71.) being exposed upon a stately Throne— great numbers of People, together with the Priests offered up Prayers to God, not without Sighs and Tears for the Soul of the Emperor; thus performing a most acceptable Office to their Prince of Pious Memory. And this Pious Office was not only performed to the Faithful Departed, at the time of their Departure; but every year at the return of that Day: and thus says Tertullian (l. 10. de Monog. c. 10.) speaking of a Christian Widow, She prays for his (her Husbands) Soul— and makes Oblations on the Anniversary days of his Departure. This is what We now do, and all that is performed in our Chapels: but for the Erogs and Crabs, they are no where but in your Brains. Misrepresent. I'll send some to see within a day or two. Represent. You have enough ready to go upon such an Errand. If they bring you any Crabs or Frogs thence, pray let me have a sight of them. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. MDCLXXXVI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures, the Occasion of Divisions. Some Protestant Divines call in the assistance of Authority and Guides; but all ends in the Private Spirit. The Question started; Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reformed, before Luther? The Answers of some Protestant Divines. Represent. YOu broke off my last Discourse, with your Dream of Frogs and Crabs. But I'll take it up now: and therefore I must tell you, I cannot but admire your Procedings in leaving the Holy Bible to the Vulgar, to be scanned and Interpreted by them at pleasure. 'Tis evident they being of Different Capacities and Inclinations, they can never so agree in their Interpretations, as to meet in One Faith, to be of One Mind, and One Spirit, as is commanded by St. Paul (1 Cor. 1. 10.) This is too clearly Demonstrated in the Distractions of this our Nation: where so many setting up for Interpreters of Scripture, there are Religious Sects, Divisions, Persuasions, Faiths and Creeds multiplied without number, to the scandal of the Christian Name, every-one pretending to the Truth, while yet these being so numerous the true Faith is but One: One God and one Faith (Eph. 4. 5.) And the Reason of these divisions is obvious. For tho' the Bible is but one in all their Hands; yet this Sacred Book does not instruct and direct them, but by certain means to be used on their part. And these Means being (according to D. Reynolds and Whitaker) The reading it, their conference of Places, their weighing of the circumstances of the Text, their skill in the Tongues, their Diligence and Prayer: How is it possible they should all agree in their Expositions of H. Writ, since these Actions on their behalf are but Humane Endeavours, Subject to Error, Oversight, Infirmity, and as different as their several Parts and Capacities? Can all compare Texts alike? Can they all weigh Circumstances alike? Are they all skilled in Languages alike? How then shall they be instructed and directed alike, when their Instruction and Direction, as to the Christian Faith, depends upon these Means? And while they thus rely on their own endeavours, their own searching and interpreting the Scriptures, as the Means whereby to arrive to the True Faith; is it not a miserable thing to consider, that these Divided Christians, having rejected the Interpretation of the Catholic Church, do now every one rely on so unsafe Means for their Faith and Salvation, that no man dares trust to but themselves, that is, every Private Person on his own Private Search and Interpretation of H. Writ: Which whilst every one depends on for himself, yet no body dares trust to besides, nor think it sufficient whereon to build their Salvation. And the result of this, is to bring all to the Private Spirit. Misrepresent. I have let you run on so long declaiming against the Interpretations of the Private Spirit, to see what you would be at: And now you have spent so much breath, you have at last said nothing, but in the air. Why, We are not for the Private Spirit. If you read Mr. Sa. Crispe 's Sermon at the Primary Visitation of the Bishop of Norwich 1686. You'll see the Guidance of the Private Spirit proved nothing better than Enthusiasm: (p. 6.) That it has made so much havoc in the World in the worst designs, in the murder of Princes, the overturning of Kingdoms and Churches, that there is nothing so vile, or Monstrous, Earthly, sensual or devilish, but if this pretence be admitted, may pass for Inspiration: And that consequently, 'tis not to be relied on, as proper to conduct any to salvation. He declares plainly the necessity of a Guide in this affair. And that all those, who desire not to miss their way, must not only apply themselves with due modesty to the searching the Scriptures; but must likewise carefully use the Ministerial Aids of the Christian Church: And the reason, why so many are given over to Strong Delusions, and to believe a Lie, He says (p. 7.) is, because out of Pride or Wantonness, they forsake the Guides of God's appointment. The like application to Church Guides, or Ministerial Helps is required by the Author of the Discourse concerning a Guide in matters of Faith (p. 38.) as likewise by the late Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversies. So that, you see, These Protestant Divines are not for encouraging the Enthusiasms of every man's Private Interpretation of Scripture: No, they are for a just deference to Authority, and the use of Guides. Represent. I confess some of them, to keep up the Face of a Church, do Speculatively contend for Authority and Guides; but then in Fact they again defeat all these their Pretensions, whilst they own no Authority to be so Great or Safe with them, but 'tis to be subjected to the control of every Private Examiner; and so to be followed, or not followed, as every man in his own Private Capacity shall think fit: So that the ultimate Appeal with them, is not to Authority, but to the Private Spirit. They maintain the Authority of the Church, as being to decide Controversies of Faith (Art 20.) and this is not to ordain or enforce any thing to be believed, that is against the Scripture. But whether that which it decides, be against or according to Scripture; this every man is to decide again by his own private Reason. They maintain the Authority of General Councils. But because these may err; (Art 21.) their Decrees have neither Strength nor Authority, unless it may be declared, that they be taken out of Holy Scripture. But whether de facto they be taken out of Scripture or no; this every Private Man must judge for himself. And this Dr. Burnet asserts positively in his Exam. of Meth. p. 82. The Principle of Protestants, with relation to the majority, even in a General Council, is, That when any Doctrines are established or condemned upon the Authorities of the Scriptures, those who differ from them, and do think that the Council misunderstood the Scriptures, are bound to suspect themselves a little, and to review the matter with greater application— Yet if they are required to profess that they believe opinions which they think false, if they were never so inconsiderable, no man ought to go against his Conscience.— And if any Synod of Protestants has decreed any thing contrary to this, in so far they have departed from the Protestant Principles. But the whole matter is more fully expressed by the Author of the Discourse before mentioned Concerning a Judge of Controversy: Who (p. 11. at the bottom,) clears it thus: If you ask, whose Judgement ought to take place, the Judgement of the Church, or of every private Christian? I answer (says he, and mark it) The Judgement of the Church of necessity must take place as to external Government, to determine what shall be professed and practised in her Communion; and no private Christian has any thing to do in these matters. But when the Question is, What is Right or Wrong, True or False, in what we may obey, and in what not? Here every Private Christian, who will not believe without understanding, nor follow his Guides blindfold, must judge for himself, and 'tis as much as his Soul is worth to judge right. Don't you see here, there's no Authority so Great and Safe amongst them, but what is to be subject to the Censure of every Private Christian? And tho' there be the Name of such a thing as a Church, yet let that Command, prescribe and ordain what it will, to be received as the Truth and Faith of Christ, 'tis not That is to be obeyed or believed: but being esteemed as a piece of Formality not to be relied on; every Man when he thinks fit, must set himself up above Church and Authority, and e'en judge for himself. Is not here every Controversy left to the decision of the Private Spirit? And under the Notion of a Church, a gate opened to all the Fanaticisms and Quakerisms in the World? By the Creed all Christians are bound to Believe the Holy Catholic Church: And St. Paul (Heb. 13. v. 7.) commands all to Obey and Submit to those that are over them, and this not only as to External Government; but likewise as to Truth and Belief; and therefore▪ says he; v. 7. Whose Faith follow. But here you see, tho' your Divines maintain the Authority of a Church; yet there's no Obligation on any Members of submitting to it, as to any Point of Faith: They must acknowledge it indeed as to the Governing or Politic part: But as to the Christian or Believing part; here every Christian, as to what he is to obey, and what not, is to judge for himself. And pray now, what does all this end in, but the Private Spirit? Can it desire any fairer Plea than this? Certainly this their Church, were it the Catholic Church, the Ground and Pillar of Truth; 'twould not thus be commendably left to be overruled by every Private Man's Reason: There would not be this liberty for every one to run astray from it, by preferring their own Judgement, before the Decision and Judgement of the Church. 'Twas said heretofore, and we know by whom, Let him that does not hear the Church, he as a Heathen and a Publican. But now it seems▪ That Man alone is as Blind as a Heathen or Publican, who does not rather hear himself, than the Church. I wonder, how long this has been so? Misrepresent. I'll warrant you now, you have got in your Head the Question, Where was the Protestant Church before Luther? But don't reproach this Church; and persuade the World, she is as yet but in her Infancy. If you have seen a Book entitled The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion, You'll see it there proved, That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally professed in the Christian World before the Reformation. p. 1. Represent. You have brought in this Question now by Head and Shoulders: But since 'tis started; satisfy me so far, as to let me know, where this Church was before the Pretended Reformation: In what Country or Nation was it Visible? Whether in the Eastern or Western World? We have a fair Historical account of it, from Luther's time to our days: But I would willingly know, where it was in all those Fifteen Hundred years from Christ's Ascension, to the coming of the Prophet Luther, as he is styled by Slydan? Misrepresent. Why, this Author of the Antiquity of the Protestant Religion, asserts it positively and proves, That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally professed in the Christian World before the Reformation. And sure you that pretend to History and Religion cannot be ignorant, Where that Religion was, which was Anciently and Generally professed amongst Christians throughout the World. Represent. Certainly then, This Man must have had some extraordinary Revelation, or made some New Discovery. For the former Protestants, who lived nearer Luth●r's time, knew nothing of this Religion being Generally professed. ●oannes Regius (lib. Apol▪ p. 176,) Bishop Jewel (Apol. p. 4. c. 4. d. 2.) and Mr. Parkins (E●po●. Credit▪ p. 400.) confe●s, that before the days of Luther and Zuingli●, the Church viz. Protestant, was Invisible, unknown, unheard of: that for the space of many hundred years an Universal Apostasy overspread the Whole face of the Earth▪ and this Church was not then visible to the World. So that by what I see, Author's don't agree in this matter. And then besides this, in a late Familiar Discourse betwixt a Minister and his Parishioner. The Question being proposed (p. 14) Where was your Religion, as it is now reformed, when Luther began his Reformation? As to this particular the Minister answers; It may be 'twas in the Greek, in the Abassine and Egyptian Churches, amongst the Armenian Christians— It may be 'twas in a Corner, under a Cloud, covered with Rubbish. What if we say, 'twas no where? Misrepresent. Well, and what then? Represent. Nothing, but that I see, 'tis very hard to be found; some find it Generally professed, others Invisibly professed; others travel a great way to find it, and return back with a May be: and it may be 'twas under the Rubbish. And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Man's Reply? He's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics; and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point, Where he shall find him. (p. 18. 25.) he there concludes them all to be but Triflers, and that there's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly, that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther? Since being now upon the Search, to what Church or Communion one was to have applied himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time, to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ, they generally agree there was such a Church in the World, but some send us to Armenia for it, some to Greece, some to the Hussites, some to an Invisible Corner, some to a Cloud, some to look under the Rubbish. What can a Man call this, but in the Plain Man's phrase, Trifling? And yet Plain as he is, he stands fair for this same Title of Honour, he has so bountifully bestowed upon others: For as others, so He tells us (p. 10.) that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World, but that it shall always have somewhere or other, some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation. I inquire, Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation? He assures me. They were certainly in the World some where or other. Great satisfaction to an Enquirer! Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town (as as 'tis in the Plain Man's Reply p. 19) and do ask the next Man I meet, which is the right way? He tells me 'tis a very Cross-Road to find, and I may easily miss it. But saith he, tho' I cannot direct you myself, yet there is a Man lives in that Village, who knows every step so exactly, that if you take him for your Guide, you cannot possibly be mistaken. Pray, say I, at what House does this Honest Man live? How may I come to the speech of him? Nay! saith he, I know nothing of all that, but you must find him as you can. Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer, What an admirable Direction would this prove? Is this any thing but Trifling? This is just our Case. I am enquiring to find out the True, Protestant Church before Luther. All assure me, 'twas certainly in the World; but when I come to ask, Where? the Plain Man's Reply is, Some where or other. Misrepr. Tho' they don't agree where 'twas just before Luther. Yet all agree, 'twas generally professed by the Primitive Christians. Represent. Then I see we must despair of finding it, the thousand Years before Luther. And what was the Primitive Church we'll inquire in our next. Published with Allowance. LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. M DC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XI. An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times; and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor: For the satisfaction of those, who desire to know, whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times. Represent. WE are now to inquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church, and see whether that was Protestant, or Catholic. But we must first know, how many Years or Ages you'll allow us to look into; that is, how long you say, the True, Pretestant Religion, as now established, was professed and practised Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days, before corruption crept in upon it. Settle this Point, and then we'll proceed. Misrepresent. If you are in good earnest, He give you some account of this. The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversy lately published, says p. 15. For Authority, We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church, the Three First Ages after the Apostles. So that I presume by him, the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally professed and practised to the year of Christ 400. Calvin, Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles, that is, Protestant, in the time of Cyprian, Jerom, Austin, the last of whom lived till the year, 430. Again, in the Discourse entitled Papists not misrepresented by Protestants 'tis said, p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remained Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils, the last of which being that of Chalcedon, (established in England by Act of Parliament, An. 1 Eliz.) was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church, for the first four hundred and fifty years: for so long, I question not, the Protestant Religion was Generally professed and practised: and that Religion as then practised, is the same as now established by Law here in England: and 'tis a shame You and Yours should so declaim against it. Represent. Pardon me here; for I profess myself to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church, that I resolve to believe as that believed: and if it appears, that That Church was the Protestant Church, I'll even be Protestant to morrow. But let us go on upon our Enquiry. You say, you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally professed in the Primitive Times, for the First Four hundred and fifty years. For your satisfaction and mine, we'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then professed. And that we may proceed with more security and certainty, we'll not descend at present so low as you allow; but look at it, as 'twas practised in the time of Constantine the Great, who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time; because This was the First 〈◊〉, that gave liberty for the Public Profession of Christianity, and established it by Law. 'Twas under him all those Pious, Learned and Holy Men first appeared, who till then had been confined by cruel Persecutors to Caves, Rocks, and Wildernesses. 'Twas under him the First General Council of Ni●e was held, which we all venerate, and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical. Misrepresent. I approve the circumstances: For if ever Christianity was Pure and Uncorrupt, it must certainly be then, when it▪ first showed itself to the world, and raised up its Head from under Perfecution. And now you put me in mind of it, Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great, for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Protestant Relition in old times. Answ. 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Professed? Represent. E'en the Fathers or Professors that then lived: but chiefly Eusebius Caesariensis, an Historian of that Age, and who is listed by Dr. Swadlin in the same place, for another Professor of the Protestant Religion. Besides we'll see what account some Modern Protestant Historians give of the Religion of those times. Misrepresent. Very fairly proposed; See you hold on so to the end, and He hear you with patience: for I am of the same mind with your Lay-friend, and He tell it you freely; I have vowed to follow Truth and Charity, wherever they lead me. Represent. This is some encouragement, if your heart keep pace with your words. But l●t's enter upon our view: First▪ I find Constantine erected a magnificent Church, in memory of the Apostles: He prepared himself a Sepulchre in it, to the end, that after death, he might be esteemed worth of the prayers which should be performed there in honour of the Apostles— He consecrated a Church to the Apostles; believing that their memory would be useful and advantageous to his Soul. Euseb, de vit. Coast. l. 4. c. 60. 2. When he marched with his Army, he carried with him a portable Tabernacle, with Priests and Deacons attending it, for the celebration of the Divine Mystertes. So Zozomenus, hist. l. 1. c. 8. vers. fin. 3. He had Lights burning in the Church in the day time, so the Centurists Cent 4. 410. relate it out of Eusebius. 4. He Translated to Constantinople the Holy Relics of St. Andrew, Luke and Timothy, at which the Devils roared: as 'tis worded by St. Jerome, who gives the whole Narration of it, cont. Vigilant. Bullinger likewise mentions it, de Orig. error. 5. He translated to Constantinople, for the preservation of that City, certain Relics of the Cross, found near Jerusalem by his Mother Helen. Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1529. Being fully persuaded that That City would be perfectly secure wherein such a (Relic) as this was preserved. As Socrates relates it, Eccles. Hist. l. 1. c. 17. 6. Under him Pilgrimages were made to Jerusalem: the Empress Helen his Mother went thither to Worship, as the Centurists have it, Cent. 4. col. 457. And Eusebius relates how Alexander, who lived an hundred years before Constantine, went in pilgrimage to Jerusalem, upon account both of praying there, and also of seeing the places. Euseb. Hist. l. 6. c. 11. 7. In his time 'twas decreed in a Council held at Arles, that Priests might not marry. Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 704. 8. He had in great Veneration Sacred Virgins professing perpetual Chastity. Euseb. de vit. Const. l. 4. c. 28. And Socrates says that Helen found at Jerusalem Holy Virgin's Consecrated to God, whom She so highly honoured, that She herself waited upon them, and brought them Meat to the Tables, at the Entertainment to which She had invited them. Ec. Hist. l. 1. c. 17. 9 Under him were Monks throughout Syria, Palestine and Bythinia, and other places of Asia in the Dominion of Constantin: So the Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1294. They say likewise, he most greatly Reverenced Anthony the Monk, who lived in the Deserts of Egypt. Cent. 4. Col. 470. Zozom. hist. l. 1. c. 13. Socrat. Eccles. Hist. l. 1. c. 21. 10. He restrained himself from all Licenousness and Luxury by macerating himself with fastings and bodily austerities. Eus. de vit. Const. l. 2. c. 14. 11. He visited and embraced the Sepulchre of Peter and Paul, and laying aside his Imperial State, he became a Petitioner to the Saints, that they would become Intercessors to God for him. St. Chrysost. in ep. 2. Cor. Hom. 26. 12. He Signed his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross. Euseb. in vit. Const. l. 3. c. 2. He honoured the same Sign. Eus. in laud. Const. He had success of Victory in virtue of it, and erected it publicly. Euseb. de vit. Const. l. 2. c. 7. & l. 1. c. 25. 13. He sat not down at the Council of Nice, till such time as the Bishops had beckoned to him. Euseb. ib. l. 3. c. 10. 14. He judged it unlawful for him to undertake the Judgement of Ecclesiastical Causes; but committed them over to be decided by Bishops. Zozom. hist. l. 1. c. 16. 15. He procured the Synod at Arles, where the Petition of the Council to Pope Sylvester was, that for the uniform Observation of Easter day throughout the world, He would send forth his Letters to all according to ancient Custom. Osiand. in Epit. etc. cent. 4. p. 182. 16. He subjected all Christian Churches to the Pope, insomuch that Mr. Napper in his Treatise upon the Revelations dedicated to King James I. says, After the Year of God Three Hundred, the Emperor Constantine subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester: from which time till these our days, the Pope and his Clergy has possessed the outward and Visible Church. And ib. P. 43. The Pope's Kingdom (says he) has had power over all Christians from the time of Pope Sylvester and ●he Emperor Constantine, for these Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years. And ib. p. 145. From the time of Constantine until these our days, even One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years, the Pope and his Clergy has possessed the outward visible Church of Christians. Again ib. p. 68 Between the year of Christ Three Hundred, and Three Hundred and Sixteen, the Antichristian and Papistical R●●gn began, reigning universally and without any debatable contradiction, One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years: God's True Church most certainly abiding so long Latent and Invisible. Nay he goes yet further, ib. p. 391. During even the Second and Third Ages (says he, after Christ) the true Temple of God and Light of the Gospel was obscured by the Roman Antichrist himself. 17. He attributed Primacy to the Bishop of Rome, as Frigevillaeus Gawius owns, Pal. Chr. ad Regin. Angliae. Constantine preferred (says he) the Bishop of Rome and of Constantinople before the rest; giving the Primacy to the Bishop of Rome before all. And upon this score he is charged by the same Author, p. 34. fatally to have given Power to the Beast. 18. He reproved Acesius the Novatian for denying the Power of remitting sin to be given to Priests. Centurists Cent. 4. Col, 653. and Socrates l. 1. c. 10. 19 Of his Priests assembled to the Dedication of the Church, some of them did Preach and interpret the Holy Scriptures: But such as were unable to arrive at these things, appeased the Deity with unbloody Sacrifices, and Mystic Immolations, humbly offering up their Prayers to God for the common peace, for the Church of God. So Euseb. de vit. Const. l. 4. c. 45. 20. After his death, Prayers were offered for his Soul; So the Centuriators Cent. 4. Col. 454. where they relate, that after his death, the People poured forth Prayers for the Emperor's Soul not without Tears. So likewise Eusebius, who adds that his Body was vouchsafed a Place with the Monument of the Apostles, that it might be vouchsafed the Divine Rites, and Misty Service, or Sacrifice▪ the vit. Const. l. 4. c. 71. And what think you now, Misrepresenter; tell me your Opinion: was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally professed and practised in these Primitive Times, when Constantine governed both the Western and Eastern World? Does the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledged by unquestionable Authorities, look like a Protestant Church? If you know what 'tis to be a Protestant, tell me your mind; Was Constantine and his Church Protestants, or no? Misrepresent. You have hunted out for all the Superstitions, Errors and Oversights of that Age; and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants? And I answer you; They were Protestants, as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they professed, tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors. Represent. That is to say in plain English, They were Protestants, as the Papists now are Protestants. Any honest man, by your appeal to, and Pretext of Reformation, according to the Primitive Times, would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion professed and practised in those times, as 'tis now here in this Nation by Law established. And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primitive Ages, we find the Christians then living. Professors of no other Protestancy, than such as is seen practised at this day, in their Majesty's Chapels at White-Hall, Somerset house and St. James': and that, I think, is a Protestancy, which is called Popery. Misrepresent. Why, in our Reformation, we are no more obliged to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time, than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No, we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel, and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God, Instructing and Directing us. And as for all Superstitions, they are alike rejected by us, tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf. Represent. Then, I see, however you pretend, your Reformation has reduced Christianity to that state, as 'twas professed in the Primitive Times: Yet when we come to look into those times, thinking to find a Flourishing, Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publicly Professed; we are still as far to seek for't as before: and all that appears, is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel professed, but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery; so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times, is nothing else but to be a Papist. Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some, to find Constantine the Great, and Eusebius his Historian, to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these, who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants, according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated, and against whose Positions (says he Ans. 11.) if we hold any thing, name it, we answer it: prove it, we yield. So that, let me tell you, By what I can see as yet, when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages, he can be no more satisfied, where the Protestant Religion, as 'tis now Reformed, was in the time of Constantine, than when Luther began the Reformation; but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Man's Reply of its being Home where or other: or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner: It may be 'twas in the Greek▪ in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches, amongst the Armenian Christians: It may be 'twas in a Corner, under a Cloud, covered with Rubbish. What if we say 'twas no where? Famil. Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner. p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT. THis is to give notice, That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies, concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chapel at Somerset-house: and of the Parish Church of St. James' in the Fields, being undermined by the Papists, and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls. If the Right Owners will appear, they shall be restored to them without Cost or Charges; and if any will produce them▪ they shall be well rewarded for their Pains. Published with Allowance. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. MDC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XII. Protestant Historians show us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine; but no Protestancy. The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practised in those times; Therefore they were no Protestants. An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine. Represent. IF you remember, at our last meeting, Misrepresenter, we were looking back into the Primitive Times, to see, if we could find there the Protestant Religion, as 'tis now reformed, Generally Professed and Practised amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour; and all the Hopes You came big with, ended in nothing but a disappointment. Misrepresent. 'Twould be a Miracle indeed to find it, as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light, by which we are to make the Discovery. Represent. A short memory makes you Unreasonable. Have you forgot so soon, the very Means and Method, by which we entered upon our Search, were of your own Choice, at least by approbation and consent? Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion. We agreed to examine the Religion Practised in Constantine's time, who, as your Dr. Swadlin says, was a Protestant, and in whose time, according to your Divines, the Protestant Religion was generally professed. We took an account of the Religion of that Age, from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too (if you credit Dr. Swadlin) and some other Modern Protestants. The Translation of Eusebias we made use of, was done by a Protestant, approved and published by Protestants, and Printed at Cambridge, Anno 1683. a Protestant University: what possibly could be fairer done, and more to your advantage? And yet after all; instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion, as now Reformed, we were got in the middle of Good Catholics, Professing and Practising their Religion, received from the Apostles, pure as yet and uncorrupted, as your Fulk and Calvin confess; and such, as you, under the specious Pretext of Reformation, have since made Odious and Criminal, and done your best to hiss it out of the world. Misrepresent. The Reformers have preserved the Religion of those times Inviolable; and have only laboured to purge Christianity of the Errors, then or since that time brought in to deform it. Represent. This is the proper Mark of the Beast. Never a Reformer yet, even from Arius to this Day, but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations. And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not suit with their Humour▪ Fancy or Interest. The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule; and such as Reform again upon those, that Reform the Reformation, still pursue this Method, till at last they have Reformed away, one after tother, all that belongs to Christianity. Some reformed away the greatest part of the holy Ceremonies and Religious Decency observed in Churches; comes another sort and reform away what These left: after them comes a Third, and Reform away even the Churches themselves. Some made a Reform of the Priestly Vestments, retaining the Name of Copes and Mitres, with the Use only of a Surplice; the next reform the Surplice: and the Third reform the Priests and Ministers themselves all out of doors. Some began to reform the Sacraments, and all were Superstitious but Two: others came, and thought these Two as Superstitious as the other Five; and at last they have reformed amongst them Religion so far, till the only Christianity that is left without Error, Corruption or Innovation, is that, which (though Protestancy still) is without ever a Christian in it. Misrepresent. Certainly you have forgot what you were about: and instead of looking for the Protestant Religion, you have taken a leap from Constantine, down into all the Enthusiasms of our Age. Represent. No, no, We shall soon be back again. I have only given you a hint, what 'tis you call purging Christianity of Errors and Innovations, and what edifying work it makes. And by this we shall find, there was no Protestant Religion Generally Practised and Professed amongst Christians, in those days of Constantine, of which we have▪ lately taken a Survey. Misrepresent. How so? Represent. Because, if the Protestant Religion had been at that time generally professed; the Protestants than would have as zealously Protested against what you call the Errors and Innovations in Constantine's time, as they did twelve hundred years after, in the Reign of King Henry 8. Misrepresent. Make that out. Represent. You know 'tis the very Essence of Protestants, to Protest against those Doctrines and Practices, which they condemn as the Errors and Superstitions of Popery. But such Doctrines and Practices there were in Constantine's time, as Eusebius and other Historians declare, and you yourselves own. Therefore, if the Protestant Religion had been at that time genenerally professed, they would have Generally Protested against those Doctrines and Practices. But there was no General Protestation against those Doctrines and Practices by the Christians in Constantine's time: Therefore the Christians in Constantine's time were not Generally Protestants. Misrepresent. Methinks this jingles something like a Syllogism. Represent. 'Tis to that Tune; and I think, convincing enough to any serious Considerer, that is acquainted with the Spirit of Protestantism. Come, I dare appeal to your judgement, tho' so perversely biased: for the Case is clear. Don't you observe, the Protestants that have been in the world ever since Luther's Pretended Reformation, have not only Ridiculed and Condemned what they call Romish Errors, in the time of Henry 8. but likewise condemn the same practised (as they own) heretofore in the time of Constantine? And here I ask of you. Don't you think, if Luther and his Fellow-Reformers had happened in Constantine's time, they would as certainly have Reformed the Christian Religion of Constantine, as they did afterwards of Hen. 8. Their loud Protesting against and condemning the Pretended Errors of both the One and the Others Religion, is a sufficient intimation, what they would have done, had the Sins of Christendom so early provoked the Divine Vergeance, and brought them before into the World. Since therefore 'tis evident, it cannot be made appear. That the Christians in Constantine's time, did Protest against any such pretended Errors, as the Protestants have done ever since Luther; 'tis evident there were no such Christians in those times, as Protestants. And however Dr. Swadlin confidently derives the Succession of the Protestant Religion, not from the Waldenses, Wicklifists and Hussits; but from Constantine, Eusebius, etc. You have now seen the One Practising, the Other relating such Doctrines, (as are by Protestants now marked out for Superstitious) without the least guilt of Conscience, or making any the least Protestation against them; and what kind of Protestants these must have been, who were thus deep in Popery, I leave you to consider. Only one thing still I'll propose to you: We have made hitherto some enquiry into the Christianity of those Former Times, and looked back upon those Christians. Now suppose it had been your Fate, to have been in those times, just Protestant as you are at this day: Had you gone into their Churches and seen there the lighted Candles, the appeasing the Deity with Unbloody Sacrifices, and Mystic Consecrations. Had you seen the Awful Translation of Holy Relics; Constantine prostrate at the Sepulchre of the Apostles, and imploring their Intercession; had you seen him signing his Forehead with the Cross; and with great veneration repositing part of the Holy Cross for the security of the City. Had you seen him Fasting, and chastising his Body; honouring Monks, and Virgins by Vow consecrated to God: Attributing Primacy to the Bishop of Rome, and Subjecting all Christian Churches to him. Had you seen the Body of the Deceased Emperor in the Church upon a stately Throne, with the Priests and numerous Crowds, in Tears and Sighs praying for his Soul: Had you seen, I say, in those days, the Christians serving God, and publicly exercising their Religion in this manner, would you have thought them Protestants? Would this have agreed with the Notion of Protestantism, you have now in your Head? Or, tell me seriously, should you not have run out of their Churches, and heartily Protested against them as Rank Papists? And yet these are the Christians your Divines appeal to, as the Ancient Professors of the Protestant Religion. 'Tis according to these times, they say, they have Reformed Christianity: And that the Religion as now established by Law in this Nation, is the same, as was then Anciently and Generally professed and practised in those Primitive Times. Misrepresent. You stand close tied up to Constantine s' time, and there make your boasts. You know we appeal to the First Five or Six Hundred Years; and 'tis not reason, you should confine the search to so narrow Bounds, as the Reign of one Emperor. Represent. we'll go forward therefore, and see what was the Religion of all these Ages; and because we cannot learn this better, than from the Belief and Doctrine of the Eminent and Learned Fathers of of those Times; we'll see what Information their Works will give us, as they are acknowledged by the Centurists, and other Protestant Historians, and Writers. The Century-Writers, you must know, give an Historical account of those Ages; and in their Fourth Century dedicated to Q. Elizabeth, and affirmed by Protestants to be an Excellent Work, worthy of immortal Memory, they charge the Fathers of those Ancient and Purer times, with the holding the Doctrines as follow, viz. with Justification by Works, Merit, Confession of Sins to a Priest, Unwritten Tradition, Invocation of Saints, Purgatory, with Altars so called of Sacrifice offered upon them, and Consecrated with the Sign of the Cross and Chrism: with the Doctrine of Real Presence, Transubstantiation, Reservation of the Sacrament, worshipping it, and offering it in Sacrifice, as propitiatory for the Living and the Dead: with the Mixture of Water and Wine in the 〈…〉 Consecration. With the Sign of the Cross in Baptism, Abrenunciation, Exorcism, anointing with Oil, and other Ceremonies used in Baptism: With holding, Infants dying without Baptism not to be Saved: The Bishop Confirming the Baptised with Chrism, and keeping the Chrism in a Box; with Consecration of Chrism by a Bishop only; with solemn Translation of Saints Relics, their Worship, placing them under the Altar, Pilgrimages to them; and Diseased Persons thereupon cured. With Images in the Church, and Lights in the Day time. With Anchorites, Ermites', Abbots and Monks, their Vowed Chstity, Voluntary Poverty, vowed Chastity of Virgins, Monasteries of Virgins, their Veil and Habit, the Fast from Flesh in Lent; Funeral Rites, Anniversary Days; Prayer for the Soul of the Deceased Party, from Apostolic Tradition: With a set Form of Prayer, Litanys, numbering Prayers upon little Stones. With Worshipping the Cross, Signing the Forehead with it. With attributing to it Virtue of Consecrating the Sacrament, of driving away Devils, Witchcraft, etc. In like manner with Deacons, Subdeacons', Acolites, Exorcists, etc. with farther mention of the Prtests Unction, Ecclesiastical Vestments, the Albe, the Stole, Dalmatica and Cope, etc. With teaching that Priests might not marry after being ordained. With Magnificent Churches Consecrated, with Celebration of Mass, appointed to be said in no places, but such as were hallowed by a Bishop: With affirming the Church to be built upon Peter. With teaching Peter's Primacy, and deriving the same from Peter to his Successor the Bishop of Rome, whose Episcopal See, the Ancient Fathers do therefore term Peter's See, Peter's Chair, honouring the same with a peculiar Festival Day; and decreeing even Public Prayer to be made for the Pope in Mass time; and finally with several examples of confessed Primacy in the Bishop of Rome. Misrepresent. Bless me, Man! Why we are over Head and Ears in Popery. I have not Patience to hear any more of this kind of Trumpery; I see, if I let you have the searching for the Protessant Religion in the Primitive Times, we shall never find it. Represent. I see but little hopes of it indeed hitherto: And yet what can a Man do more for your advantage, than I have here done? I inquire of I rotestants; Where one must look to find their Religion in former Times? They tell me; Their Religion is the same that was professed by the Primitive Christians, in the First, Four, Five, or Six Hundred Years after Christ. I examine those Years; and not to be biased by Passion or Prejudice, I make use of Protestant Spectacles to look back upon those Past Ages: And yet you see, what kind of Protestant Religion we meet with: Were it not for your saying, They were Protestants, one might swear without scruple, the Christians of those times were downright Papists. I have delivered to you hitherto nothing of the Profession and Practice of those Ages, but what your own Protestant Historians deliver to me. And how can I think the Christians were then Protestants, when Your own Historians and Controvertists, mark out to me the most Eminent and Leading Men of those Times for Papists? Come, let me tell you, This is enough to make any Man stumble. And though you pretend to go by S●nse and Reason in your Religion: Yet, methinks, to hear the Protestants of the Last Age, condemning the Times now under question, for Papistical, and you with your Modern Divines appealing to them for Protestant, is not very agreeable either to Sense or Reason, and, to be free with you, I must e'en renounce them both, if you intent I should follow you. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. M DC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XIII. The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times, no Protestants, but Papists. Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors, but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church. The Four First General Councils no Protestant's. Representer. WELL met to day, Misrepresenter; I hope, now you have slept upon our last Discourse, you will not press me much with turning Protestant; since having now Examined the Religion of the Primitive Times, we cannot discover, but that what you call Popery, was as Generally professed by the Christians of those Purer Ages, as under Hen. 8. when your New Apostles set up for Reformation. Misrepresent. You would fain persuade me to it. I know this is the Trap you lay to catch Converts. But you'll be mistaken in me; I am too well acquainted with all your Wiles. Repres. No, No, as for your particular I even despair. 'Tis Good, Well-meaning People, such as have made it the First of their Morning Prayers to God, to Direct them to the Truth, such as have dealt justly and honestly with their Neighbours, have spoke ill of none, have raised no Lying Reports, nor have been maliciously Industrious in spreading them; such as these I willingly Discourse, and have hopes to prevail with. But for you, that talk loud of Reason, and have none: You that fleer, and flirt, and blaspheme every thing you do not understand; You that suck in Hatred against your Neighbour with your Milk, and afterwards nourish it by Obstinacy and Passion; and continue to malign him, you know not why. You that condemn your Neighbour upon a bare Presumption; and pass Sentence against him upon Fables and Hearsays, and persuade all your Acquaintance to do the like; for you, I say, nothing less than a Miracle can change your Heart; and unless some favourable Ray of Mercy shine upon you to cure this Blindness, as you have lived, so, I fear, you'll die in Darkness. Misrepres. What, dooming me already! Repres. Your want of Charity is a Presage of your Doom. 'Tis but beating the Air to Discourse with you. However, Once again. Don't you often charge me with believing the Errors and Superstitions of Popery; and importune me no longer to admire those Fopperies; but, as I tender my Salvation, to renounce them all heartily, and become a Good Protestant? Misrepres. Yes, I do: And 'tis the Doctrine I Preach up every where, for the good of Souls, And I give the Reason: Because the Protestant Religion is the Pure Religion as 'twas Professed heretofore by the Christians in the Primitive Times. Repres. 'Tis that Religion I desire to be a Member of: But how can I believe, that That was the Protestant Religion? If I am to pin my Faith upon your Sleeve, tell me so. But if I am to be convinced of it by Reason, how is it possible I should be of your Mind, and think so; since having now taken a fair Prospect of the Religion of those Ages, from the Best and most Impartial Historians, we find Popery to have been then Professed with as little Control or Contradiction, as▪ 'tis at this Day in Italy or Spain? I am sure, if you should be told of any Neighbour of yours, in this City, that in his Devotions desires the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven, Prays for the Souls of the Faithful Departed, keeps Anniversary Days, Signs his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross; uses Exercisms, Oil, Breathing and other Ceremonies in Baptising his Children, etc. you would presently cry out, A Papist, A Papist. And if you Censure such an one for a Papist now, how can you persuade me, the Primitive Christians were Protestants, whom we have found Professing such Doctrines and Practices? If it be Popery now to do so; how was it Protestantism then? Either you must make them Protestant's that Teach those things at this Day amongst us; or else they were none, who Taught and Practised them heretofore. Come, I'll ask you one Question; Had you lived in those Days of the Primitive Church, would you have Communicated, or joined with those Priests and Numerous People, who after the Decease of Constantine, were Praying round the Hearse, for the Soul of the Emperor, as 'tis related by Eusebius de Vit. Const. lib. 4 cap. 71? If you would not, I conclude Those Priests and People were none of Your Church, that is, no Protestants. And yet while you would have stood out then, as Recusant, I am confident such as at this Day Pray for the Soul of Charles 2. would then have Prayed for Constantine's, had they been then Living. And These are such as you call Papists. By which my Reason informs me, That if ●le be a Christian, as Christians were in the Primitive Church, I must be no Protestant, but a Papist: since the Protestants of our Days, would no more have joined with the Christians of those Times, than they do now with the Papists. Misrepres. You triumph now, as if you had got●a Victory: and yet you have hitherto done just nothing. All your Proofs end in nothing but some Particular Instances: and so I confess you have shown some Private Doctors, some Particular Men to have been acknowledged as infected with Popery in those Primitive Times, by our Centuriators and other Protestant Divines. But what's all this to the Primitive Church? Some Private Doctors and Opiniators might then be Papists, 'tis true: but the Church was nevertheless Protestant. Examine the Four First General Councils, which were at that Time the Church Representative, and you'll see nothing Decreed by them, but what We hold as Protestant's. Repres. You are for having me take all upon trust. And tho' you cry out against Pinning Faith upon Sleeves; yet I see, if I don't pin my Faith upon your Sleeve, I shall never be Protestant. You Preach to me, I must be guided by Reason; and 'tis not enough to Say, the Primitive Church was Protestant: but you must Prove it too, if you'll convince my Reason. For my part, by the Progress we have hitherto made, I think I have Reason to think, that not only some Private Men, but that the Whole Church was then Popish, as you call it. For let us but reflect a little; Who were These Men, who by your Modern Protestants are accused of Popish Doctrines in those Times of Constantine, and the Two Following Ages; and we shall find they were the most Eminent, the mosh Learned, the most Exemplar, and Best Men of their Times: they were S. Augustine, S. Hierome, S. chrysostom, S. Athanasius, S. Ambrose, S. Gregory Nazianzen, Nyssen, S. Basil, S. Hilary, S. Cyril, S. Paulinus, S. Epiphanius, etc. These were the Men, who living in those Primitive Ages of the Church, are condemned and rejected by Modern Protestants, for holding and maintaining Popish Doctrines, These are they who are charged with Popery, by the Centuriators, by Osiander, Chemnitius, Melancthon, Bullinger, Beza, Whitaker, Humphrey, Covel, Whitgift, Abbot, Morton, Fulk, Trig, Cartwright, Field, Hooker, etc. Now I need not ask here, being upon Enquiry into the Faith of the Primitive Church, whether Those Ancient Fathers cannot in all likelihood better inform me, what was the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of their Times, than other Modern Teachers, who had not a Being in the World, till Twelve or Thirteen Hundred Years after? But I may consider with myself, whether it be not most agreeable to Reason to think, since such Eminent and Virtuous Men and Prelates, as just now recited, are accused of Popery, that not only some Private Persons in those Primitive Times, but that the Whole Church was then Popish? I am assured by all Antiquity, that these Persons, that stand thus Indicted, Governed the Primitive Church; were Bishops, Pastors, and the most Exemplary of their Age; the People or Flock were Instructed and Taught by them; So that such Doctrines as they than Published in their Writings, and Preached to the People, without Censure or Reproof, I cannot look on as a Private or Closet-Concern; but as the Public and Received Doctrine of their Times: and that in the Sermons and Works of the Pastors is seen the Belief of the Flock. And this will oblige me to conclude, that Such Doctrines and Practices of which these Ancient Fathers and Doctors stand charged by Moderns, was not the Doctrine of Private Men, but of the Whole Church of their Times: It being not at all probable to think, while the Pastors are thus generally condemned for Papists, that the People should be Protestants, I demand of you, Whether the Writings and Books of Protestant Prelates, Doctors and Divines Published under Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth, be not an Argument, that besides showing their Private Sentiments, will prove likewise the Doctrine and Belief of Their Church? and that whosoever quarrels with them for their Protestant Negatives, and Dissenting from the Church of Rome, does not in the same Breath condemn their Whole Church, of which they were Rulers and Overseers? If so, have not I equal Grounds to believe, that the Concurring Sentiments of the Primitive Fathers, was the Sense of the Primitive Church; and that the accusing them of Popish Doctrines and Principles is a Condemnation of their Whole Church, over which God had placed them Prelates, Pastors and Teachers? So that by all my Reason can discover yet, if I am to be of the Religion of the Primitive Times, I am to be no Protestant; but continue as I am, a Papist: and if I were not so, this your Appealing to the Primitive Church, and our Search into it, would even oblige me to renounce Your Communion, who▪ only make a Noise of the Primitive Church, and are nothing like it: but are as much for Reforming that, as you did the Church of Henry 8. Misrepres. Leave these Private Doctors and Fathers, and look but into the First Four General Councils, and you'll soon discover, that the Church of those Primitive Christians was nothing else but Protestant. Repres. I find too much of the Pope in those Councils, to think they were Protestants. The Pope Presides in Three of them by his Legates or Deputy. They show great Respect to his Letters, and follow his Direction. They hear him called their Head without Contradiction: and call him so Themselves. They own him to have the Care of the Vineyard, v●z. the Whole Church, committed by Christ to his Charge. Now how can I imagine the Bishops there assembled to be Protestants, since You and I, that know what kind of things Protestants are, are very well assared, that had those Prelates been Protetants, instead of these Honourable Titles▪ and Respects▪ they had even set upon Him with those Course Protestant Compliments of Antichrist, Whore of Babylon, Usurper, etc. with a peremptory Demand of What had he to meddle there with his Legates and 〈◊〉 of Direction in the 〈◊〉▪ Church, whose Diocese, like other Bishops, was no other, but what was overlookt by the Seven Hills? You know if the Centurists, Osiander, Mr. Cartwright, Bibliander, Dr. Whitaker, Mr. Bale, or Mr. Beard had been there, they had in such Honourable Phrases Entitled him to Tyranny and Usurpation, as they have since, with other of their Brethren, done in their Writings. But since, instead of these Reformed Compliments, I find the Pope Treated by those Four First General Councils, with all Submission, Respect and Veneration; how can my Reason be convinced that those Bishops and Divines there assembled were Protestants? Do you but imagine with yourself, that Pope Sylvester, Damasus, Celestine, and Leo, instead of Directing their Legates and Letters to those First General Councils, had sent them to a Synod of Dort, of Charenton, to such Committees for Religion, or Convocations as have been at any time held in these Northern Climates, since the time of Lather's Pretended Reformation; what Reception do you think they would have had? Can you imagine they would have given to the Legates the most Honourable Seats, as was done in those Councils? Would they be heard to style the Pope the Successor of Peter, and Their Head, with that awful Silence, as was done there? Would the Pope's Orders and Directions be received with that Submission, as was done by those Venerable Synods? Misrepres. Troth, I am apt to believe they would not. Repres. Then I am apt to believe, and have Reason for't, that the Prelates and Divines of those Four First General Councils, were nothing like These, that have been of late assembled in our National Synods and Convocations; that is, No Protestants. For if your Protestant Religion were really the same Religion, as was then Professed in the time of those First Councils, the Behaviour of those Ancient Prelates had certainly been no other, than such as might rationally be expected from our Modern Protestant Synods and Convocations, had the same Legates and Letters been Directed from the Pope to them: and yet how Vast a difference there is betwixt what Those did heretofore and These would do now, were they in the like Circumstances, You yourself cannot but acknowledge: and whilst you own that Those Primitive Bishops of the Ancient and yet Pure Church did behave themselves so unlike Protestants, how can I, who am to govern myself by Reason, conclude them to have been Protestants? Come, you exact too hard a Task of me; if you expect I shall believe, that the Primitive Christians were Protestants, you must even do more than Say so; you must show, that those Ancient Doctors did behave themselves in their Pulpits like our Modern Doctors; That They did then in their Sermons rail against the Pope, and endeavour to prove Him Antichrist: That Obeying and Believing the Catholic Church was going Blindfold, and Pinning Faith upon Sleeves: That Praying to Saints was Idolatry, and Praying for the Souls departed, an Idle Superstition, and a Tricking them to Heaven. I have shown you the same Popish Doctrines Professed heretofore, as you now find at this day: show me but such Damning Sermons Preached against them heretofore, and you'll do something. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. M DC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XIV. No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Father's Heads with Fears and Jealousies: No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practised, is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants. Representer. I Hope you are by this time satisfied, Misrepresenter, that the Professors of such Doctrines and Principles, as you call Popish, were every where to be found in the Time of the Primitive Church, when you say the Protestant Religion was Generally Professed amongst Christians. Misrepresent. I very freely acknowledge, That in the Time of the Primitive Church, and of the First Four General Councils, there were very many Eminent Men, through Infirmity or Blindness Embracing and Professing Popish Doctrines. This I will not be so obstinate as to deny; because I find most of the Ancient Fathers of the Church branded with the Mark of Popish Errors, by Our own Century-Writers, and other Protestant Divines. Hierome, Ambrose, Austin, Athanasius, Gregory, chrysostom, and the rest of them, do not escape this Censure; They all had their Failings in this Point, They condescended too much to the Infirmity of their Times, and in many of their Doctrines knew not what they said or Taught. But still the Church was Protestant; and the Four First General Councils, as I told you before, were all Protestants. You may claim some Particular Doctors of those Times, if you will, and welcome; but for the Church and Councils, these were certainly Ours; and their Religion was the same True, Protestant Religion, as is here by Law Established. Repres. Well, I don't know how far Interest or Passion, or Education, may work in this Point: But I cannot bring my Reason and What you say, to meet, for my Life: and yet I have been trying, and turning and stretching it every way, since our last Meeting, and 'twon't do at last. For look you now; You say Those First General Councils were Protestants. This presently raises a Notion in my Head, That all those Bishops and Divines there assembled, were like our Protestants hear in England; and I presently resemble them to our Convocations or Parliaments. Here I begin to Imagine, what so many Divines of Ours would have done in those Times, had they been then in Body. I consider, that the Times were then very Dangerous; Popery, as you confess, began to spread, many Eminent Men were infected with its Errors: Then think I, Certainly, if the Fathers in those Councils had been Protestants, there could not have been wanting some Zealous Doctor, who would have animated the Fathers to the utter Extirpation of those Errors, and with a Fervorous Protestant Harangue, have prepared them for the Enacting of Laws or Canons, to prevent the Growth of Popery, and sor the Preservation of the Protestant, the most Moderate and best Religion in the World. I cannot 〈◊〉, but there would have appeared some Warm Doctor, a Dr. J. S. who from the Text Revel. 11. 5. I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy Candlestick out of his Place, except thou repent; would have thus poured forth the Spirit of Reformation upon them: We have no Apprehensions, that either Mahometanism or Paganism will come into these Kingdoms: it is another kind of Removal of our Candlestick, that we have reason to fear; it is another Religion nigher at hand, that is most likely to Displace our Candlestick. You all know what Religion I mean; it is Popery that most threatens us. It is that Restless, Busy Religion, that has made so much Disturbance in Christendom; that has always been, and is still so Active by all Means, Just or unjust, by Fraud or Force, to insinuate itself into all Places. It is this we ought to have most Apprehensions of. May God so inspire you, that by your Means as effectual Provision as Possible may be made, both for the keeping out that Foreign Religion, which so little serves the Ends of Christianity, and so much disserves the Interest both of King and People; and for the more firm Establishment of the Protestant Religion. Or in case of this Doctor's failing, would there not have been invited another, as Dr. J. T. who would have put the Fathers in mind, That it is believed by many, and not without cause, that the Pope and his Faction are the Antichrist.— That Popery is as bad, or worse than Infidelity— That the Old Heathen Philosophers were better Teachers of Religion than the Papists.— That Tully, Plutarch, and Seneca, were much Honester, and more Christian Casuists, than any that I know of▪ in the Church of Rome. That therefore They would make a Lasting Provision for the Security of our Peace and Religion against all the Secret Contrivances and open Attempts of These Sons of Violence. Can you think, Misrepresenter, that Popery having thus overspread the Earth, the Light of the Gospel being obscured (as Mr. Napper says, upon Revel. p. 191.) by the Roman Antichrist himself, in the Time of these First Four Councils, there could be so many Protestants assembled, Bishops, Divines, and others, as you say there were in those councils, and yet not one word of Encouragement for the rooting out of Popery, and filling their Heads with Fears and Jealousies? Come, for my part, I cannot tell how to imagine this possible. And therefore unless, as you have shown me what you call the Corruptions of Popery in those Times, so you can likewise show me, there were some Means taken for the preventing the Growth of them by those Fathers, I shall never bring my Reason to believe, that those Fathers were Protestants. Misrepres. Means! I don't question but there were Means used for the Redress of those Evils: but we are not upon that Point yet. You are only speaking of a Sermon Introductory to those Councils. Repres. Well, and can you show me from any of the Ancient Historians, that there were any such Inspiriting Sermons at those Times? If you cannot produce any, I shall be apt to believe, that either the Preachers than were no Protestants, or else that the Fathers were none. For you and I that know what Protestancy and Popery is, must needs conclude so. Misrepres. You may even drop this Point; for I don't pin my Faith upon such Sermons. I know indeed, as the World goes now, there are some who cannot hold their Eyes open at a Sermon, but when the Thunder of Papist and Popery, breaking from the Pulpit, awakens them. But 'tis likely, 'twas not so in old Times. The Christians heretofore, I believe, had a greater Portion of the Spirit of Peace and Charity, they were contented with following their Text, and knew to spend their Glass, without the help of these Popular Excursions. It may be this Modish Divinity is New, taken up only since the making a Faction and Party has crept into the Pulpit with the Gospel. But what then? The Protestant Religion was Anciently Professed; and I question not, the Fathers of those First Councils were Protestants, tho' I can produce no Instance of such Parliamentary Sermons, as you speak of. Repres. Thou art Good-natured sometimes, Misrepresenter, and so Ingenuous, as to shame the Devil and speak Truth: In Return, I'll let fall this Point, and will inquire no farther after Protestant Sermons in those Primitive Times, for the Direction of the First Councils. We'll pass over therefore to the Councils themselves, and Examine what kind of Christians the Fathers there assembled were. Misrepres. Yes, this will be to the Purpose: upon this Point turns the whole weight of the Controversy, if it don't appear they were Protestants; I must needs own, I have deluded many; and that I really am, what you call me, a Misrepresenter. Repres. Don't you remember, I showed you at our last Meeting, that the Pope and Those Fathers were too well agreed to be Protestants? Misrepres. Yes, yes; I have heard this already. The Popes were Good Prelates in those Days; they had not then the Mark of the Beast in their Forehead: and so that Concludes nothing. Repres. If They had not then the Mark of the Beast, 'twas because there were then no such things as Protestants to set it on. The Popes had at that Time all Christian Churches Subject to them, as Mr. Napper confesses, upon the Revelations: Nay, he says that the Pope's Usurpation and Lording it over all Christian Churches, began before the Year of Christ 316, which was before the Time even of the First General Council of Nice held An. 325. Now since for this very Usurpation (as they call it) the Modern Protestants, Luther's Offspring, have set Horns upon the Pope, and made him Antichrist, if he was not so reputed or esteemed by the First General Councils, there being then the same Reason, I must needs conclude, 'twas because they were then no Protestants. You yourself cannot deny, but if Those Protestants, who now say, that the Antichristian and Papistical Reign began in those Days; had They then lived, and been Protestants, would have said the same then, as they do now. And since, instead of such Opprobrious and Infamous Titles, the Fathers than showed him the highest Respect and Veneration, my Reason assures me, Those Fathers were no Protestants. Misrepres. This is nothing but a Dry Repetition, and I am weary of it. Advance a Step▪ or I'll even be gone, and leave you Gaping without a Witness. Repres. Let's proceed then to the Canons and Decrees of those First Councils. And here I demand of you: Do you find any Canons or Decrees made by the Fathers of those Councils, in opposition to the Doctrines and Tenets, which you now condemn as Popish Errors, but were then Taught and Practised? Misrepres. What Errors do you mean? Repres. If you remember, Calvin, Beza, Dr. Field, Whitaker, the Centurists, and other Protestant Writers, Censure the greatest part of the Primitive Fathers, who lived either before or in the Time of the First Four General Councils, for Teaching and Believing many Points, which are of late rejected for Superstitions of Popery, and Inventions of Men: Such as, attributing Primacy to the See of Rome, Tradition, Invocation of Saints, Honouring the Relics of Martyrs, Prayer for the Dead, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Transubstantiation, etc. These and many other such Doctrines, Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church, in the Time of the First Councils. And now I ask of you, Whether the Prelates there assembled▪ did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines? Misrepres. I confess, I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter. Respres. How can I believe then, that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants? You are not ignorant, how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper. You know, They look upon the Intercession of Saints, as injurious to the Mediation of Christ, and Idolatrous: The Pope's Primacy, is with them an Antichristian Usurpation: Honouring Relics is Superstitious: Praying for the Dead, an Idle Devotion: The Belief of Transubstantiation, Unreasonable: The Mass, an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross. Now can you persuade me, that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestant's, and yet let these Doctrines and Practices, so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion, pass without any Condemnation and Uncensured? No certainly, The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so. They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions, such as were contrary to the Received Doctrine of the Church; and there were no sooner any started, tho' in Parts remote from them, but they presently took the Alarm, and by Writing, Preaching, Disputing, Synods National and Ecumenical, did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them: And such as continued Obstimate in their Errors, with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them, and Disturbing the Peace of the Church, seldom or never escaped without the Mark of Heresy or Schism. When I consider this State of the Primitive Church▪ happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors, no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators, and Upstart Opinions, than in Preserving Them in the Received Doctrines from the Apostles; I cannot imagine, how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council, of such Gross Stupidity, or Inexcusable Connivance, as they must of necessity be guilty of, in passing over so Considerable an Evil, which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church. And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants, they of necessity fall under these Censures, in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines, which (as we are assured from Modern Protestants) in the Times of those Councils had prevailed upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since, as you confess, They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone, against those Doctrines, I am throughly persuaded, They were no Protestants. Misrepres. Then, I'll warrant you, you take them all for Good Papists. Repres. I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing, For I am confident, none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practised, as We have seen from Eusebius and Others, under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils, and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof. Your Friend therefore, who tells the World, that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Professed, would do well to Explicate to the Curious, what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore, which did agree so well with So much Popery. If he does not clear this Point well, many others, I believe, besides myself, will begin to suspect, that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church, were rather Papists than Protestants. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. M DC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers, shown Injurious to Protestancy, from the Concessions of Protestant Writers. Luther, the Apostle of the Reformation, disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers, as not being for his purpose of Reforming. Misrepresenter. I HAVE a Scruple this Morning, that I have given you too much room, to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times: If I had Confined your Search within a Narrower compass of years, you had discovered more Protestancy and less Popery. Repris. I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to, nor more than are generally allowed by Protestants. You know 'tis the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers, to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church. They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome, as it was in the Time of their Reformation: and they justify themselves for so doing; because the Church of Rome (as they pretend) had fallen from the Purity of Doctrine professed by the Primitive Church, into Gross Errors, Superstition and Idolatry. And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform itself, 'twas necessary They should Separate from it, so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity, and bring it back to that State of Purity, in which it had been practised by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church. Misrepres. Yes; this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome: and therefore I don't doubt, but the Religion as here Established amongst us by Law, is the same as was heretofore Generally professed by the Primitive Church. But the Question is, How many Years the Primitive Church continued Pure and Uncorrupt, that is, Protestant, as we are at this Day? For I see, you have looked back into some Ages Past, which I took for Protestant, and there has appeared then so much Popery publicly Exercised and Professed, that I have some reason to suspect, that the Christians of those Times, were rather Papists than Protestants: and that you have been something insincere in this Point, and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought. Repres. 'Tis your Interest rather to suspect Me, than the Weakness of Your own Cause. But tell me; How many Years did you allow me, wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church? Misrepres. I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ. And in this I a am sure, there was no Mistake of mine. For Our Dr. Morton says (Prot. Ap. p. 354.) that It has been the Constant Procession of Protestants, to stand to the Judgement of Antiquity, for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more, in all things. And (ib. 573.) be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years, that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years. Bishop Jewel too, our Champion and Apologist, makes his Challenge in his Sermon at Paul's Cross, to all his Learned Adversaries the Papists, to bring against the Protestant Doctrine any one sufficient Sentence out of any One Catholic Doctor or Father, for the Space of Six hundred Years after Christ, and he is content to yield. Whitaker renews the same Challenge (Resp. ad rat. Camp. p. 90.) provoking the Papists to the first Six hundred Years; and if they can produce any one Father or Council against the Protestant Articles, he grants the Victory: It is the Offer of us all, (says he) the same do we all promise, and we will perform it. So that as far as I see, I have not exceeded the Protestant Bounds. Repres. Neither have I, in our Enquiry, passed these Limits: Our Search has been restrained within the Compass of the First Six hundred Years: and the whole System of Popery, I have laid before you, has been the Belief and Practice of the Christians of those Times. And this will oblige you to consider, what Grounds you have to trust to, for the Support of the Pretended Reformation; whilst you see some eminent Protestants Appealing to the Primitive Church of the First Six hundred Years; and Challenging the Papists to produce any One Doctor in favour of Popery within that Compass: and yet other Protestants at the same time are charging the most Learned and Eminent Fathers of those Ages, as Abettors of Popery, and reprove them for being infected with Popish Doctrines. Misrepres. This you have been often Saying, but I must see it Proved. Repres. Do you keep then in your Mind the Challenge of Bishop Jewel above mentioned: wherein he provokes the Papists, to show One Father holding against the Protestant Doctrine, in the First Six hundred years; and bidding them Defiance upon this Trial; the like of Whitaker and others: and I'll let you see the Concessions of some other Protestants, upon the same Subject. But have Patience then. 1. For the allowing Vows of Perpetual Chastity, and affirming them to be Obligatory: S. Basil, Ambrose, chrysostom, Epiphanius and S. Austin are reproved by Chemnitius. Exam. p. 3. p. 41, 42. And the General Council of Chalcedon is confessed to have forbidden Marriage to Monks and Nuns, by Just. Molit. de Eccl. Milit. p. 80. 2. As touching the Sacrament; Chrysostom is thought to confirm Transubstantiation. Centur. 5. col. 517. Eusebius Emissenus did speak unprofitably of Transubstantiation. Cent. 4. col. 985. In Cyprian are many Sayings which seem to affirm Transubstantiation. Ursin. Come. p. 211. 3. As concerning Sacrifice; it is affirmed by Learned Protestants, that the Ancient Fathers, viz. Athanasius, Ambrose, Austin, etc. erred herein: So Calvin and Dr. Field, who say of them, that they made a Sacrifice of the Lords Supper. The Centurists likewise affirm of Cyprian, that his Judgement in this Point is Superstitious. Cent. 3. col. 83. That the Writings of Irenaeus and Ignatius are herein incommodious and dangerous. Cent. 2. c. 4. col. 55. And that presently after the Apostles Times, the Supper of our Lord was turned into a Sacrifice. sebas. Franc. in Ep. de Abrog. 4. Concerning Prayer for the Dead, It was general in the Church lorg before the Days of Austin, as appears in Cyprian and Tertullian. So Mr. G. Gifford in his Demonst. p. 38. Mr. Fulk likewise acknowledges, that Tertullian, Cyprian, Austin, Jerome, and a great many more, do witness, that Sacrifice for the Dead is the Tradition of the Apostles. Consut. of Purg. p. 362. That Prayer and Alms were made for the Dead almost from the very beginning of the Church. Bucer in Enar. 4. Evang. in Mat. c. 12. 5. Concerning Merit of Works Dr. Humphrey says; It may not be denied, but that Irevaeus, Clement and others who are called Apostolical Men, have in their Writings the Opinions of freewill, and Merit of Works. Jesuitism par. 2. p. 530. Origen and chrysostom are affirmed by the Centuriators, to have handled impurely the Doctrine of Justification, and that they attribute Merit to Works. Cent. 3. col. 265. and Cent. 5. col. 1178. And not only Cyprian, but almost all the Holy Fathers of that Time, were in that Error; as thinking so to pay the Pain due to Sin, and to satisfy God's Justice. Whitak. in Resp. ad Rat. Camp. Rat. 5. 6. Concerning Invocation of Saints. The Lord Archbishop of Cant. Discoursing of Doctrines taught in any Age since the Apostles Times, affirms without any Exception of Age or Father, That almost all the Bishops and Writers of the Greek Church and Latin also, for the most part, were spotted with Doctrines of freewill, Merit, Invocation of Saints, etc. Whitgift Def. ag. Rep. of Cartw. p. 473. Mr. Fulk likewise says; I confess that Ambrose, Austin, and Jerome held Invocation of Saints to be lawful. Rejoin. to Brist. p. 5. S Cyprian is charged by the Cent. to maintain, That Martyrs and Saints departed, pray for the Living. Cent. 3. col. 84. Origen likewise, with Prayer for himself to Holy Job and Invocation of Angels. Cent. 3, col. 83. and col. 75. The same Centurists affirm moreover, That there are manifest Steps of Invocation of Saints in the Doctors of that Ancient Age. Cent. 3. c. 4. col. 83. 7. Concerning Confession and Absolution. The Centurists confess; That even in those Times of Cyprian and Tertullian was used Private Confession: and that the same was then commanded and thought necessary. Cent. 3 c. 6. col. 127. That also Penance or Satisfaction was enjoined according to the Offence. Ib. And likewise, that the Priest, when the Confession was made, and Penance enjoined, did afterwards Absolve the Penitent with the Ceremony of Imposing his Hand. Cent. ib. 8. Concerning the Primacy of Peter above the other Apostles, the Ancient Fathers of the Church, viz. Jerome, Hilary, Nazianzen, Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, are reprehended by the Protestant Centurists, viz. for affirming the Church to be built upon Peter. Cent. 4. col. 1215, 555, 558, etc. The same Centurists reprove S. Cyprian, for teaching (say they) without any foundation of Scripture, that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledged of all other for the M●ther and Root of the Catholic Church. Cent. 3. col. 84. In like manner Irenaeus, who (as Hamelmannus says) might yet remember the Apostles own lively Preaching, is condemned by the Centurists for his affirming, That all the Churches ought to accord to the Roman Church, in regard of a more powerful Principality: for which words they charge him with a corrupt Saying concerning the Primacy of the Roman Church. Cent. 2. Alph. Tab. word Irenaeus. And this Authority of the B. of Rome, D. Philip Nicolai referreth for its beginning to the Infirmity of the Apostles and of the first succeeding Bishops of Rome, in Comment. de Reg. Christ. p. 221. With whom concurs Mr. Middleton, in his Papist. Mast. p. 193. No marvel therefore (says he) tho' perusing Councils, Fathers, and Stories from the Apostles forward, we find the Print of the Pope's Feet. For these and all other Points of Catholic Doctrine, the currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers, are so certain and evident, that many Learned Protestants, upon this Consideration, refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities; thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause, to give them a general Disclaim. Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patched up out of the Father's Errors. Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humphrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel, for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers; affirming, that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope, was injurious to himself, and after a manner spoiled himself and the Church. Misrepres. So then I see you intent to claim the Fathers, not only of Constantine 's Time, and the Following Ages, as Abettors of Popery; but likewise Those, who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles. And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy? Repres. 'Tis not only I that claim Them, but even the Protestants themselves, you see, of the precedent Age, such who were not ashamed to speak the Truth, make a surrender of them, laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine. And when they have disowned all the Father's one by one, from Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus, who lived in the Apostles Days, and succeeded them in their Function, to S. Jerome, Austin, Leo, Gregory, the last of which survived the Fifth Century: when they have declared that Antichrist began his Reign, and obscured the Light of the Gospel, even from the Time of the Apostles: I wonder what Room, as you say, there's left for Protestancy. It savours something of a Mystery, methinks, called Nonsense; to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Professed amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church; and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church, for being infected with Popery, and giving way to Antichrist. Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences, if you'll take my Advice, Misrepresenter, I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers; but as you have condemned the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation, of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions, to take one step further back, and even take in the other Six hundred Years too, and so condemn them all in the lump, from Christ's Time to Luther, for being Papists and Popishly affected. Never Mince the matter; They were all Men, you know, and subject to Error, and when you are once in, 'tis as easily condemning your Forefathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight. Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind; and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers, than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand. Harken a little to your courageous Luther: In the Writings (says he) of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ, and Sound Religion; Tertullian is very Superstitious; I have held Origen long since Accursed; of chrysostom I make no account; Basil is of no worth, he is wholly a Monk, I value him not of a Hair; Cyprian is a Weak Divine. The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church, and exceeds even Austin himself. Coll. men's. c. de Patr. Eccles. And in another place; The Fathers, says he, of so many Ages have been plainly Blind, and most Ignorant in the Scriptures; They erred all their Life-time, and unless they were mended before their Deaths, they were neither Saints, nor pertaining to God's Church. To. 2. l. de Seru. Arbit. Peter Martyr is of the same mind, and therefore says plainly, That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers, we shall always remain infected with the same Errors, viz. of Popery. And certainly, Misrepresenter, these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on't: for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy, and justify the Separation as this Levelling Divinity. For your Going by halves, and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church, fills People with Doubts and Scruples, whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times, instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. M DC LXXX VI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER. CHAP. XVI. A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy. The Art of Interpreting does Feats; it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity. Represent. HOW stands your Head to day, Misrepresenter; have you Considered the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting? Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church, and Huffing those Ancient Fathers; as Luther, Peter Martyr, and others did, who designing a Through-Reformation, were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages, as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8? Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers, and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants, which They cast off and Condemned for Papists? Misrepres. I have Considered this Matter very seriously, and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point. And therefore, to be short with you, I value no more the Saying of Luther; than he did Those Ancient Fathers, whom he condemned as Weak Divines, Superstitious, and Valued not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness, that he could not well look back, and make Judgement of any thing behind him. Repres. Nay, I commend you in this; 'tis only just to serve him in his kind. 'Twas Tertullian's Saying. Cur●●nm idem licet Marcionitis, quod Marcioni? If Martion has rebelled against the Church, why should his Followers think much to rebel against him? And since Luther cast off all Authority, and valued not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church; why should any one think much of undervaluing him, by his own Example? If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine, and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk; is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther, to cast him off, for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine? Well, but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point, and done't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers, as Erroneous and Superstitious; what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works, wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines, that 'tis impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists; which does not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants? Misrepres. Pish, I value no more these Difficulties, than Luther did the Fathers, that is, not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bade their Eyes but half open, what's that to us, who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us? Alas, the Protestant Church in the Time of Luther, etc. was but in her Nonage; and what wonder is it, if We, standing upon their Shoulders, see farther than They? Repres. Then we are like to have Old Protestancy, I see, and New Protestancy; a Protestancy of Luther, and a Protestancy of those that stand upon Luther's Shoulders: And who knows but some other Doctors in the next Age may set their Feet upon your Shoulders, and see as far beyond you, as you think you do beyond Luther? As far as I see, The Reforming Humour is not so much out of Fashion, but all this is possible; And tho' the Word of late be STAND FAST; yet this cannot be very effectual, when Those that give it, never knew what. 'twas to Stand Fast themselves: They that have no other Being, but what they gained by a Violent Breaking loose and Separation, Argue but weakly, when they cry to their Followers to HOLD FAST. When Doctrine and Example go together, it moves powerfully; but when the Example is a Confutation of the Doctrine, it sinks not beyond the Ear; and is no more to the purpose, than for a Rebel to Preach up Loyalty and Obedience to his Followers. Misrep. Whither are you gone? Why the Protestancy of the First Reformers and Our Protestancy is much at one; only Luther and his Contemporaries were for Reforming the Primitive Fathers, taking them for as rank Papists as those that we found in the Time of King Henry 8. And we take them for Good Sound Protestants, and regulate our Belief and Doctrine according to what was then generally Taught by them and Practised. Repres. So that Those Fathers it seems, whom Luther condemned as Superstitious, Monkish, and Accursed, you follow as True-Protestants. 'Tis well Luther is gone before you; if he were to come again, he would as certainly throw you into the same List of Superstitious, Monkish, and Accursed, as he did those Fathers, whom you follow as Protestants, but were rejected by him for Papists. Misrep. No such matter. For tho' we believe as the Fathers believed, yet we don't descent in any material Point from Luther; we accept of and own his Reformation, and fear no Anathema from him, tho' he were to have a Second Coming. All the business, is Luther, Peter Martyr, etc. did not understand the Fathers; They mistook their Meaning, and thought them in their Writings to teach Popery, and therefore declared them Accursed; But Our Divines, the Divines of these Days of clearer Light, whose Discerning Faculties are more Pure and more Refined than those that went before them, have now Examined the Works of the Fathers with a stricter Eye, and find all that in the Fathers to be Stanch-Protestancy, which Luther and his Followers mistake for Popery. Repres. How so Man! What strange Discovery is this! Misrep. Nothing strange at all; 'Tis only by the Natural Art of Interpretation. 'Tis but the Application of three or four Significant Words to the Popish Expressions of the Fathers, and forthwith they appear all in as true a Protestant Dress, as if the Fathers of the XXXIX Articles had been the Authors. Repres. What▪ this is some Controversial Legerdermain I'll warrant you; You'll favour me with a sight of it, who knows what Effect it may have upon me? If it does not make a Convert of me, at least I shall undoubtedly admire the Art and Industry of the Operators. Misrep. You are upon your Raillery. However produce you any of what you take for the most Popish Sayings of the Fathers, even those very Sayings, for which They were condemned by Luther for Papists, and you shall soon see, I'll make good what I tell you. I done't, like Empty Quacks, promise more than I'll perform. Repres. Let's see then. As to Invocation of Saints; We quote St. Gregory Nyssen, who thus directs himself to S. Theodore Martyr, (Orat. de S. Theod.) Intercede and Pray for our Country, to the Lord of the Universe: Thou hast left this World, yet thou knowest our Desires, our Wants, and the Necessities of Human Life. Ask for Peace. We quote likewise S. Gregory Nazianzen, who thus Addresses himself to S. Cyprian, (Orat. 18. in S. Cyprian) Do you full of Compassion look upon us from Heaven, direct our Words and Life, and help me who have the Charge of this holy Flock. The like we read in St. Chrysostom, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, St. Austin, etc. And for this very Reason are these Fathers reproved by former Protestants, as infected with Popish Errors, and spotted with Superstitious Doctrines. Now, how do you make this a Protestant Doctrine? Misrep. Why, look you now: with one Word I turn all this Popery into Protestantism. These Sayings of the Fathers are not Prayers to the Saints, but only so many Rhetorical Flights or Innocent Wishes: and what's become of all the Popery now? But proceed; have you any more? Repres. This is as good as the Powder of Pimperlimpimp; a Germane Artist could not make a more Expedite and Undiscernible Conversion. But pray let's have some more of this. We quote for the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, some Passages of the First General Councils, in which he is styled Head; and of some Ancient Fathers, who acknowledge his Jurisdiction, and obey his Orders, tho' being Prelates not of the Western, but of the Eastern and African Church. Misrep. These are nothing but Compliments. Repres. Good again. We quote likewise upon the same Subject, St. Irenaeus who (lib. 3. c. 3. adv. Haer.) says that All Churches ought to accord to the Roman Church, in regard of her more Powerful Principality. And Others who call it the Head-Church; adding, that to its Bishop is given a Preeminence of Priesthood. For which Sayings These Fathers are rejected by the Centurists. Misrep. Pish! The Centurists understood them not. These are only Expressions of Civil Respect, and no acknowledgements of Authority, Primacy, or Jurisdiction. They are nothing but Respectful Compellations, and Words of Courtesy. Repres. We quote again upon this Subject, The many Applications that were wont to be made by the Eastern and African Bishops to the Bishop of Rome, wherein they acquainted him with the State of their Church-Affairs, Gave an Account of their Faith, Informed him of Heresies arising, Required his Assistance, etc. Misrep. All this was only for the maintaining a Mutual and Brotherly Correspondence. It means no more. Repres. We quote again in behalf of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation, the Sayings of the Primitive Fathers, affirming, That as Christ changed Water into Wine at Cana of Galilee; so at his Last Supper he changed Wine into his Blood. That the Flesh of Christ, which we eat for our Salvation, aught to be Adored, and that we Sin in not Adoring it. That the Words of Christ cannot deceive us or be untrue, but our Sense is very often deceived; Since therefore He has said, This is my Body, let us be Convinced and Believe, That He that Sanctifies and Changes the Gifts, is Christ himself; 'tis not done by Human Power, the Priests hold but the Place of Ministers. That they believed the Bread Sanctified by the Word of God, to be Changed into the Body of God by the Word. Misrep. The Fathers in all these Expressions speak only as Orators, Figuratively or Morally, but not as Divines; and so all this advances nothing for Popery. Repres. Well, hold: I'll say this for you, This is the most artificial Knack of making the Ancient Fathers no Papists that could possibly be invented. Luther, and the rest of that Age, were certainly Dull Souls, so severely to Censure the Fathers for being infected with Popish Errors; whenas if they had understood the Efficacy of these Three or Four Words, RHETORICALLY, COMPLEMENTALLY, CIVIL-RESPECTFULLY, FIGURATIVELY, and MORALLY, and known the Right Use of them, they might have made the Primitive Fathers to have delivered as Good Protestant Doctrine, as any Modern Divine has done since the Reformation. Misrep. You are in the right; but such Discoveries as These, are not the Product of one Age. This could not be expected from the First Reformers, who had their Hands full, and many Irons in the Fire: 'Twas enough for them to condemn all such Expressions and Writings, whether of Primitive Fathers or Others, that did any ways seem to disagree with the Reformed Principles. But our Modern Controvertists, who have had more Leisure and Contrivance, and looked more narrowly into the Text, have now made all that Sound Protestancy which by the First Reformers was taken for Rank Popery; and all this by Interpreting and Declaring what is spoken by the Ancient Councils and Fathers by way of Compliment, of Civil Respect, of Oratory, of Figure, or Moral Discourse. Repres. Really this is admirable. But pray now tell me, May not this Method of Interpreting sometime or other be likely to do Mischief; and as you by this Art, of Popery have made Protestancy, may not some other by the same way, of Christianity, make Judaisme, Infidelity or Atheism, and at last make every thing of any thing? Misrep. How so? Repres. As now, if when We, as Christians, proving Christ to be the Son of God, allege Joh. 10. 30. I and my Father are One, any Pretending Interpreter should come and say, This is only a RHETORICAL FLIGHT. When we quote Luke 1. 11. Thou art my beloved Son, he should say, This is a COMPLIMENT. When we prove Obedience to Superiors by Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the Rule over you, and Submit yourselves, he should say. This is only for a MUTUAL CORRESPONDENCF or CIVIL RESPECT. If to all the Duties of a Christian commanded in Holy Writ of Living Soberly, not Bearing False Witness, Being Subject for Conscience sake, Loving our Neighbour, Not making Divisions, Honouring Parents, Not Stealing, etc. he should thrust in those little Interpreting Words▪ and make all this to be spoken Figuratively, or by way of Compliment; would not this be a very fair way of turning Christianity out of doors, and making the next Generation Infidels by the same Rule as you have made the Ancient Fathers to be Protestants? Let any thing be delivered never so expressly either in Scripture or Fathers, 'tis but the Interpreting it by way of Figure, Compliment, or Morally, and it changes the whole Sense, and makes any thing of any thing. There would be no great difficulty by this Art, of making the Bible speak the Language of the Alcoran. And if this be your Way of making Protestants of the Primitive Fathers, 'tis but applying your Rule home, and you may make the Trent-fathers' as much Protestants as They. Misrep. Well, I am bound to stand to't, that the Ancient Fathers were Protestants still. But suppose They were not, I could not tell how to turn Papist. A Papist is such an Unreasonable and Absurd kind of Christian, that a Man had as good be of no Religion at all, a● be a Papist. Repres. It may be so indeed, as you understand a Papist. If a Papist were really what you seem to render him to the People, I should as heartily detest him and his Religion, as you and yours do, and should not wonder to see you more concerned at your Neighbour's turning Papist, than when he becomes Jew or Atheist. Misrep. Let's hear then what Your Papist is, and I'll tell you what Mine is: But let's have none of these Interruptions and quick Turns. When I have said my Say, do you take yours. I'll give you no disturbance: I have some Eight or Ten Points to touch at; and if you'll let me have my Humour, let's return to our Old way of Papist Misrepresented and Represented. Repres. Well, as you please; but pray consider, whether Silence will not be more agreeble to these Times of Peace: Do you go Your Way, and I'll go Mine, if you think fit. Published with Allowance. Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, for his Household and Chapel. MDCLXXXVI.