A LATE DIALOGUE BETWIXT A CIVILIAN and a Divine, concerning the present condition of the Church of ENGLAND. In which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of.  

1 The sin and danger of delaying Reformation.  
2 That there is a certain form of Church-Government Jure Divino.  
3 That there was an ecclesiastical Excommunication among the Jews.  
4 That Excommunication is an Ordinance in the New Testament.  
5 Concerning the Toleration of all Sects and Heresies.  
6 Some Answer to a late Book come from Oxford.   1 Thes. 5.21. 
Prove all things: hold fast that which is good.  
Published by Authority.  
LONDON: Printed for Robert Bostock, dwelling in Paul's churchyard at the sign of the Kings Head. 1644.   

A LATE dialogue Betwixt a Civilian, and a Divine, concerning the present condition of the CHURCH of ENGLAND, &c.  Divine. 
GOOD Morrow to you good Sir.  Civilian. 
I am glad to see you Sir, will you take a walk with me this morning, and tell me what good news ye have heard, for I have not yet been in Westminster Hall, the place most infected with the Athenian disease.  Divine. 
I can tell you no news at this time.  Civilian. 
You look as you were not well pleased to day, pray you tell me, have you heard any bad news from the North or from the West.  Divine. 
None truly, but this I confess, that though I cannot but allow those who from their affection to the Cause, are inquisitive of news from several quarters, and labour to make some good use of what they hear; yet for mine own part, one thing sticks with me, which suffereth me not either to be so curious in seeking, or so jovial in hearing news, as many others are. The truth is, I am more afraid and apprehensive of our own, then of our enemy's victories.  Civilian. 
This is a most strange paradox, what can you mean by it? I hope you are not turned malignant.  Divine. 
If it be paradoxal, yet I am sure it is orthodoxal, I remember judicious Calvin said the same of the German wars in his time. There is more danger, said he, like to come by our own then by our enemy's victory. I desire his words may be well observed, and applied. I dare say, God is more gracious to us in continuing this war of ours, then if he should answer our desires in putting an end to it presently. When God blesseth our forces with any great success, nay when he doth but draw back his afflicting hand a little, and giveth us some lightning of our eyes, O how do we by and by forget God, and slight both Hu●iliation and Reformation. 
* Deut. 23.15.  Then jesurum forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the rock of his ●alvation. 
* ●●al. 78.34. Caiv. Opuse. de S●andalis gu●s Evang●l● pro 〈◊〉 la●●● in Germanian 〈◊〉, & ●●●zae adhuc e●sent corum 〈◊〉, qu● ad tuendam bonam causam videbantur animati, ha●que f●●ucia susceptum esset luctuosum b●c bellum, quodque, insel●c●ter● 〈◊〉: ●rectis ● magnas spes, p●rt●s nostrae animis; d●xi al quando publ●è, plus à nostra, quàm hostium victoria, nobis instare pericul●●● eque enim tam● m●tuenda● esse ullas clades, quàm n●m●s triumpha●e, ●t ita loquar, Evangelium, quod nos adinsolentiam efferret. No● vero me i●ius voc●s bod●e quoque paenites. Nisi prophanae licentiae Dominis matu. e obviam ●●sset, morbus fu●sset temporis successis procemodum incurab●lis. Nulle dollrinae piisgu● monitionibus fuisset authoritas, &c.  But, when he slew them, than they sought him, and returned and inquired after God early. There were never serious and deep thoughts, either in the Parliament, or in the kingdom, of fasting and praying, of covenanting with God, of purging our hearts, our lives, our families, of reforming the Church, according to the word, of building the Temple according to the pattern, of caring for the things of Jesus Christ more than for their own things; never but when we felt God's hand smart and heavy upon us. And if now the sword of the Lord should be still, and England a quiet habitation, every man sitting under his own vine, and under his own figtree: I verily believe our great state-physicians should heal the wound of the daughter of Zion slightly, and daub the wall with untempered mortar, and the Church of God in this kingdom should have dry breasts, and a miscarrying womb, instead of bringing forth the manchild of Reformation, now sticking in the birth, but having no strength to come forth, till some new pains and pangs quicken and carry through the work.  Civilian. 
I must confess the Reformation of ourselves and our families hath been, 
Act. & Monu vol. z. p. 1373. edit. 1583.  and is still, too much neglected. But for national and Church-Reformation, I do not know what can be more done than is done, considering our intestine divisions among ourselves, which as Mr. Fox observeth was the undoing of the Church and of Religion in King Edward's days, and is like to prove the bane of Religion and Reformation in our days. Ita dum singuli pugnant universi vincuntur: 
In vit. Iul. agri●.  as Tacitus speaketh of the ancient British.  Divine. 
Sir, I desire that first of all this may be laid down as a sure Principle, that the purity and liberty of the Gospel, and of the Ordinances of Jesus Christ, is to be more esteemed of, and sought after then all or any thing in this world. That it is said as well to States and Parliaments, as to particular persons: 
Matth. 6.33.  Seek ye first the kingdom of God and the righteousness thereof, and all these things shall be added unto you. The settling of Religion is to be looked upon, as causal, not as consequent to the peace and prosperity of the Kingdom. 
M●l 3.10.  do but prove the Lord now herewith, 
Isa. 2●. 1.1. 〈◊〉 ●. 30.  and see if he will not appoint salvation for walls and b●●●marks, if he will not honour those that honour him, if he will not be zealous for those that are zealous for him. The Trojans believed that Troy could not be taken except their idol Palladium were taken away from them which being once taken away by Ulysses and Diomedes, 
〈…〉.  they observed that shortly thereafter their Town was destroyed. Arno●ius tells us that when the I●age of Jupiter was thrown down in the Capitol, 
〈…〉 P●●l. 2●●.  and was lying upon the ground, the heathenish soothsayers did foretell sad and heavy things which should never be removed till Jupiter were set in his own place; whic● i● it were no done, that they did in vain hope for the preservation of the laws, or the healing of their homebred divisions. Shall those Pagans rise up in judgement against us Christians, who do so overly and slightly go about the building of the house of God, and the erecting of the throne of Jesus Christ; who care for something else more than for his Church and kingdom, his glory and his ordinances, who seek our own things, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.  Civilian. 
No man can say against this, that true Religion is the Alpha and Omega of a kingdom's happiness, and that it is their surest foundation and strongest bulwark of Peace, Liberties, and laws. And I trust the Parliament will ever be most tender and careful of it, and put it in its own place as they have frequently professed in their Declarations, and really manifested in calling and keeping together an Assembly of learned and pious Div●nes, the results of whose debates and consultations t●ey will take to their consideration in due time, for settling the government of the Church, and the worship of God.  Divine. 
If you would really and carefully endeavour, to do what you profess to intend, I have no more to say, but that the success is to be committed to God, you having done your duty. But assuredly the practices do not answer to the professions, nor the performances to the promises.  Civilian. 
For that I must tell you a story which I remember that I have read, in Diodorus Siculus of Pharnabazus who after many slow preparations, did at last lead forth Artaxerxes his Army against the Egyptians. This man being asked by Iphi●rates, why he was so nimble and ready in discourse, and so slow in action, why he did promise so much, and perform so little: answered, because he was master of his words but King of his actions: meaning that actions were not so much in his power as words.  Divine. 
All things are possible to him that believeth. Do not say with the sluggard, There is a lion in the way. If you would but do your duty in going about the thing, trust God with the event. Now assuredly it is your duty to carry on the cause of Religion in the first and principal place, which that I may the more press upon you, I will add unto that which hath been said, the notable example of Solomon, 1. King. 6.37, 38. & 7.1. In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the Lord laid, in the month Zif, and in the eleventh year in the month Bull (which is the eight month) was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was ●e seven years in building it. But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years. Neither did he begin to build his own house, till those seven years were ended, and the house of the Lord fully perfected, as appeareth clearly by 2. Chron. 8.1. and it came to pass at the end of twenty years, wherein Solomon had built the house of the Lord, and his own house. After all which (as followeth in that place) he took care for store-Cities, and fenced Cities, for tribute, and for his navy. Tostatus and other Interpreters observe, that Solomon looked first to the Lord's matters, and afterwards to his own matters. 
Antiqd. 8 c. 2.  And Josephus his observation is very much to be taken notice of. The building of the Temple (saith he) which did continue for seven years being finished, he went about the building of the Palace, which in the thirteenth year, he did scarcely finish, for he did not take so much care of this work, as of the building of the Temple, which though both large and more glorious than can be believed, was through God's assistance perfected in the foresaid space: but the Palace though very far inferior to the magnificence of the Temple, yet the materials thereof not being so long before prepared, and the house being to be builded for the King, not for God, it was the more slowly brought to perfection.  Civilian. 
But I beseech you where is the fault with us? and what could be more done than is done?  Divine. 
O but my heart bleeds to think how it goeth for the present, and how it is like to go for the future with this distracted unsettled Church, what fruits have we yet reaped of our many petitions and endeavours for reformation of Religion, of our solemn Covenant, of the learned debates and long consultations of the Assembly of Divines, methinks that which was said of Ephraim, Hos. 13.13. agreeth too too much to England. The sorrows of a travelling woman shall come upon him, he is an ●nwise Son, for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. I wish we may beware of that which some stories have observed to have been a most unhappy error in the Emperor Frederick 3. who did so far connive at all things, that when he was put in mind to look to this or that, to prevent this or that danger, he was wont to answer as Faelix did, the time of amending those things was not yet come, he would wait for a more convenient season; which season he could never see? I am persuaded it lieth heavy upon the spirits of thousands beside myself, to know that every man doth now in Religion what seems good in his own eyes, Errors and schisms do multiply, in most places of the kingdom; there is a darkness instead of divination, and people are like sheep that have no shepherd: and for aught I can see, betwixt our forsaking of the old, and finding of a new way, we are fallen in a wilderness where there is no way, O when shall I once see Religion settled?  Civilian. 
When the war shall be hushed, the State ordered and composed, the Peace of the kingdom socured; it is not to be expected till then that the Parliament can have much leisure to look to Church matters: yet they will no doubt, do the best that may be for the interim. Marvel not if I say more, that the Parliament doth wisely in moving so slowly. The slow and wary motions of Fabius did overcome Ha●●db●●, whereas the heat and suddenness of Minutius did endanger the commonwealth. Sudden courses (I doubt) shall not so much glad us in the beginning, as grieve us in the end.  Divine. 
I have read in some politicians, that though that of Augustus.— Festina lente, 
Hag. 1.2. De Repub. l. ●. c. 12. Quicunque Principes atque Re●pub. Semet ipsas conservare cup, in id unum prae caeteris, incumbere debeu●, ut verum religionis cul●umrecte instituant & vanerentur. Et infra, quod si haec tam d●ligens cura divini cultus, à Reipub. Christian● Princip●bus observata esset, secundum primam institutionem, & praecepta ejus, qui illam nobis primum tradidit: longe majori faelicitate, a● pace in orbe Christi●●● frueremur. Valerius Maximus l. 1. c. 2. gives us fix instances of examplary judgements among the Romans; which were observed to fall upon such as despised Religion, & the honour of the Gods.  do well agree to calm and peaceable times: yet Alexander his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nihil cunctando, is fitter for times of trouble and war, and so they reconcile the one with the other▪ Kekerm. discurs. de consilio quaest. 7. It is not safe to dispute long, in the time of a present combustion, nor to consult long about the cure, when the patient lies a-dying; But I desire to argue from the principles of my own profession: God did of old reprove his people, because they said, The time is not yet come, the time that the Lord's house should be builded. This they said at that time when Judah and Benjamin had powerful adversaries, when the land was not secured, nor the walls of Jerusalem built. They might have pleaded for themselves enough of this kind, but all this could not excuse them at God's hands: he would have them build the Temple before the walls of Jerusalem. And in this they hearkened to the Prophets of God, and did so. Thereafter God taketh themselves to witness, whether he had not blessed them from that very day when they laid the foundation of the Temple: Nay I dare say it is not only good Divinity, but good Policy, that the Parliament should mind the things of Christ, more than their own things: for if (as I suppose) you will believe Matchiavell, he teacheth you that the setting up of the ordinances of Christ, is the best way to make a kingdom flourish in prosperity and peace. I conclude therefore that procra●tinations in reforming Religion may prove very pernicious as well to the commonwealth, as to the Church. And for my part I must confess, I am afraid that the Parliament hath felt, and shall yet feel God's hand against them i● other things, because of their doing the work of the Lord so negligently, and at the best by halves. I wish the Honourable House of Commons may remember what they were about at that instant, when the sad news of the dispersion of the Army in the West, were brought to them: And if they shall inquire at God, 
Iob. 10.2.  as Job did, Show me wherefore thou contendest with me. I doubt not but they shall hear the voice of his servants, the voice of his rods, and the voice of their own Consciences telling them that he hath somewhat against them: that he healeth not the breaches of the land, because they heal not the breach of the daughter of Zion: that he makes the success of the war to halt, because they halt betwixt two, or rather many opinions.  Civilian. 
I do fully agree with you if all this be understood of the fundamentals of Faith and Religion, and the power of godliness. But if so be, you mean of the government and discipline of the Church, than you make mountains of molehills, and put Hercules' sh●e upon an infant's foot, whiles you hold that God is not pleased, and that the kingdom cannot be blessed, unless the order and discipline of the Church be established so and so as you would have it. I do not acknowledge either the episcopal way, or the presbyterial, or the C●ngregationall, to be Iure divino, But that all things of that kind are left in such an indifferency, that they may be moulded and fashioned diversely according to the different forms and constitutions of commonwealths, and altered as much and as often, as each State shall find most convenient for itself. If you can convince me that I am in an error, go to, let me hear your reasons.  Divine. 
I shall endeavour by God's assistance to satisfy you. But first of all let me use this humble liberty with you, once to put you in mind of the Apostles premonition, 
1. Cor. 3.18.  Let no man deceive himself: if any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool that he may be wise. he that most denieth his own natural judgement in supernatural verities, and is not conformed to this world, but is transformed by the renewing of his mind; shall best prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. 
Rom. 12.2.  Absque te sapere, est desipere. O Lord, faith Augustine, to be wise without thee, is to be mad. Do not therefore measure scriptural truths, by political principles, but contrariwise, and let your judgement be unbiased and unprejudiced, when light is set before you. And whereas it seemeth to you a venial thing, if not altogether lawful to take a latitude in all such things as are not substantial (though scriptural) truths, and may (you conceive) admit a variation upon State-considerations. Remember I beseech you that it is the pleasure of God to take notice of, yea purposely to try our obedience, 
Luk. 16.10.  Etiam in minimis: For he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much, and he that is unjust in the least, is unjust also in much. How was the Lord offended with jeroboam's setting up of Altars at Dan and Bethel: yea even with the Kings of Judah, for not taking away the high places, though Jeroboam Might have pleaded that it was extremely dangerous (in regard of the war betwixt him and Rehoboam) that his subjects should go up to Jerusalem to sacrifice unto the Lord there. And the Kings of Judah might plead, that it was too burdensome for all the people to be tied to go to Jerusalem with their Sacrifices: that God would have mercy and not sacrifice; especially considering that they held the foundation, and sacrificed to the Lord only; And this variation from the law of Moses, being in no substantial thing, but only in the circumstance of place. In like manner Jeroboam thought not fit to have the feast of Tabernacles upon the fifteenth day of the seventh month, but upon the fifteenth day of the eight month, when the fruits of the earth were more fully gathered in: he would observe the feast according to the law in all the substantials, but would not be tied to the circumstance of time. But God doth utterly reject his worship, 
1. King. 12.33.  because Jeroboam had devised it of his own heart. If therefore the will of Jesus Christ can be made to appear from his word, even concerning the form of Church-government and Discipline, and ceremonies of worship, that thus and thus he would have us to do, will you then quarrel at these things, because stamped with a I● divinum? Will you draw out your neck from this yoke, because it is Christ's yoke? Will you submit and obey because these things are ordinances of Parliament, and you will not submit because they are ordinances of Christ.  Civilian. 
You say right, if you can make it appear that Jesus Christ hath revealed his will and commandments, not only concerning faith and manners, but how he would have his Church governed and ordered. Now this is it which you have yet to prove.  Divine. 
For that, I shall desire you to consider, that Jesus Christ is the only Head and King of his Church, that the government of his Church is a part of his Kingly office: 
Isa 22.21, 2●.  that the Government is committed into his hand, and the key of the house of David is laid upon his shoulder; that the Father hath set him as a King upon his holy hill of Zion, 
Luk. 1.33.  to reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his Kingdom there shall be no end. As therefore he hath fully and faithfully executed his Priestly office in making atonement for our sins by the sacrifice of himself, and still making intercession in heaven for us. And his prophetical office in revealing the whole counsel of God, and teaching his people by his word and spirit, what he would have them to do. So he hath no less fully & faithfully executed his Kingly office and Legislative power, in providing by his Statutes and Ordinances for all the necessities of his Church; and appointing by whom and after what manner he will have his house governed, what spiritual Courts and Judicatories he would have erected, how he would have them constituted, by what rules to proceed, how to censure offences. It is an old observation, they are the best laws, which leave least to the power of the Judge to do as he list. It were a bad administration of the supreme power in any Kingdom, if no certain kinds of subordinate officers, nor no certain kind of government were appointed, but all this left to the liberty of every Country or City. Now Jesus Christ is more wi●e, and provident, and faithful, in the government of his whole Church, than ever King or Parliament was in the government of an earthly kingdom; and hath therefore appointed Officers, Courts, Censures, and laws, for the right ordering thereof; and hath not left these things to be determined by th●● or that State at their pleasure. I should wish you and all that are of your mind, to study better the Kingly office, and prerogative royal, of Jesus Christ.  Civilian. 
I conceive the Kingly office of Christ to consist in this, that he preserveth, strengtheneth, and delivereth the Church invisible, and all the members of his mystical body from the malice of the devil, and the wicked world, and also ruleth and commandeth their hearts by his spirit, to walk in the ways of his obedience. But that the Kingly office of Christ reacheth so far, as to the external government and order of a visible political ministerial Church, that I still doubt of.  Divine. 
You observe not that my argument did conclude this very thing, at which you stick, that Christ hath appointed a certain policy and government, and certain kinds of officers for the Church, because he hath fully and faithfully discharged his Kingly office in providing for all the necessities of his Church. And that he reigns and rules in his Church, not only mystically, but politically considered; I suppose you cannot deny, if you observe that otherwise a visible political Church is a body without a head, and subjects without a King. Therefore it is the ordinary expression of our Divines against Papists, that the government of the Church is partly monarchical in regard of Christ our King and lawgiver; partly aristocratical in regard of the Ministers and Officers, and partly democratical in regard of certain Liberties and privileges belonging to people.  Civilian. 
I would understand whether the Reformed Churches hold the form of their ecclesiastical government to be jure divino, for I have heard, that it was introduced among them only in a prudential way.  Divine. 
I shall give you some clear instances of their judgement, such as come to my remembrance. In the Book of the policy of the Church of Scotland, I read thus.  
This power and policy of the Church should lea●e upon the word immediately, as the only ground thereof, and should be taken from the pure fountains of the Scriptures, the Church hearing the voice of Christ, the only spiritual King, and being ruled by his laws. In the French confession it is said, we believe that this true Church ought to be governed by that Regiment or Discipline, which our Lord Jesus Christ hath established. ●n the Belgic Confession, I find words to the same purpose▪ We believe, say they, That this Church ought to be ruled and governed by that spiritual Regiment, which God himself hath delivered in his word. See Harm; Confes. Sect. 11. If the question were only this, whether the Divine right of this or that form of Church-Government is to be mentioned and held forth in the ordinance of Parliament, for my part I should not contend much for that, the business going right otherwise. But it belongeth at least to the Assembly of Divines to satisfy the consciences of men by holding forth the institution and ordinance of Jesus Christ: which if it be not done, our proceedings shall not be conformable to those of other Churches.  Civilian. 
Well then, go on; you did bring an argument from the Kingly office of Jesus Christ. Let me hear what other arguments you have to make it appear that God hath in his word descended so far into particularities with us, as to appoint a certain form of Church-government.  Divine. 
This will appear best, when the particular form of Church-government with the scriptural grounds of it, shall be taken into consideration. This government is Iure divino. Ergo, a government is Iure divi●●. This were too large a subject for our conference. But I ●●mit you to what is largely written concerning it. I shall only put you in mind, that in all ages God hath by positive laws descended into many particularities with man. Take for instance beside the positive Law before the fall, the commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, other positive Law● before the Law, such as that of the distinction of clean and unclean beasts, Gen. 7. the Law not to eat blood, Gen. 9 the Law of circumcision, Gen. 17. Under the Law, beside moral and forensical observances, there were many ceremonial Statutes. And under the gospel, Christ and his Apostles have left another Law, which though it lay opon us, neither many nor burdensome performances, yet bindeth us to such and such things in ecclesiastical policy. The particulars we find in the Acts of the Apostles, and in the Epistles, especially to Timothy and Titus, and Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12.  Civilian. 
Many particulars of that kind there are in the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles. But that those things were intended as perpetual and binding ordinances, is a great question. And beside I have heard some learned men make a distinction betwixt Ius di●inum; and Ius Apostolicum.  Divine. 
This distinction was used by those that denied the jus divinum of the Lord's day. But surely i● i● an i●● grounded distinction, and those that make most use of it, are forced also to distinguish betwixt Ius divinum, and Ius Mosaicum, holding that though God was the Author of the moral Law, yet Moses (no● God) was the Author of the judicial and ceremonial Law: as the Apostles did write some things as Christ's heralds: other things as Pastors or Bishops of the Churches; that they were Authors of the latter, 
Tr●ct. 62. in Acta.  promulgators only of the former, and that therefore the former only were Iure divino. Thus saith Salmeron, but he is in this contradicted by Bellarmine, Maldonat, Suarez, and others. Lorinus in Psal. 88.32. noteth, that it was one of the errors of Valentinus and of the gnostics, that the Decalogue only was from God; and other laws from Moses and the Elders of Israel. But what saith the Apostle himself after he hath given rules concerning the policy of the Church, Let the Prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge; and the Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets. Let your women keep silence in the Churches, &c. Then he addeth, 1. Cor. 14.37. If any man think himself to be a Prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge, that the things that I writ unto you, are the commandments of the Lord. do we not also find, the laying on of hands reckoned among those cat●cheticall heads which the Apostles did deliver as perpetual to all the Churches, Heb. 6.2. Papists understand the episcopal confirmation. Dwerse of our writers understand ordination of Ministers, and the several kinds of Church officers. However it is agreed on both sides, it is a thing belonging to the policy of the Church, not to the foundation of faith or piety. I add that the directions given to Timothy and Titus are standing ordinances for all the Churches, as may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.15. and 6.14. and 2. Tim. 2.2.  Civilian. 
But Ratio mutabilis facit praeceptum mutabile. The reason why there were ruling Elders and Deacons, and Church-censures at that time was, because there was no Chri●●ian Magistrate. So that under a Christian Magistrate there is no necessity of such officers, government, or censures in the Church.  Divine. 
I answer, First there is no ground at all in Scripture for such a distinction, for the Scripture holds not out one form of Church-government, for times of persecution, another for times of peace. But rather one form to be perpetual and continued, till the second coming of Jesus Christ. Rev. 2.24, 25. That which ye● have already, hold fast till I come. So 1. Tim. 6.14. before cited, and the like. 2. Chrysostom Hom. 12. in 1. Cor. doth show diverse sins for which the best lawgivers had appointed no punishment. And where there are Christian Magistrates, yet there are no laws nor civil punishments for somethings which must needs fall within the compass of Church-discipline, such as ignorance of God, neglect of family worship, living in malice, or envy, &c. 3. And though the civil or municipal laws should reach to all offences which are supposed to fall under the verge of Church-discipline, yet there is still a necessary use of both. For instance, a Traitor, or a murderer being excommunicated by the Church, is by the blessing of God gained to true repentance, humiliation, and confession, whereupon he is loosed and remitted, and again received into the bosom of the Church: nevertheless the civil sword falleth upon him; were he never so penitent, shall such a one either escape the civil sword because reconciled to the Church, or shall he after God hath given him mercy, and a great measure of repentance, die under the dreadful sentence of excommunication, because Justice must be done by the Magistrate. There is no way of avo●ding great inconveniences on both sides, but by holding the necessary distinct uses both of the sword of the Magistrate, and censures of the Church. 4. And when they are most coincident, it is but materially or objectively, not formally: one and the same man must be civilly punished, because justice and the law of the land so requireth, and that the Common wealth may be kept in Peace and Order; he must also be Ecclesiastically censured, that his soul may be humbled, that he may be filled with godly sorrow, and with shame and confusion of face, and drawn to repentance, (if possible) which the Church, not the Magistrate, driveth at.  Civilian. 
I have heard it asserted by some learned men, that among the Jews, there was no government nor discipline in the Church distinct from the government of the State, yea, that there was no such distinction as Church and State, but that the Jewish Church was the Jewish State, and the Jewish State the Jewish Church; and if it was so among them (whose forms you take in many particulars for patterns) I would fain know why it may not be so among us.  Divine. 
Though the Jewish Church and Common wealth were for the most part not different materially, the same men being members of both, even as in all Christian republics, yet they were formally different one from another, in regard of distinct Acts, laws, Courts, Officers, Censures, and Administrations. For, 1. The ceremonial law given was given to them as a Church, the judicial law given to them as a State. 2. They did not worship, do sacrifice, pray, praise, &c. as a State; nor did they kill malefactors with the sword as a Church. 3. As the Lord's matters and the King's matters were distinguished, so there were two different Courts for judging of the one and the other, 2. Chron. 19.8.11. Fourthly, when the Romans took away the Jewish State and civil government, yet their Church did remain. 5. The government of the State and the constitution thereof was not the same under the Judges, under the Kings, and after the captivity: shall we therefore say that the Church was altered and new moulded, as oft as the civil government was changed. 
De jure nature. & Gentium. l●. 2. cap. 4.  6. Learned Master Selden hath rightly observed, that those Proselytes who were called Prosiliti justitiae, though they were initiated into the Jewish Religion by Circumcision, baptism, and Sacrifice; and were free not only to worship God apart by themselves, but also to come into the Church or Congregation of the Israelites, 
Proselytus Iustitiae, utcunque nova●o patriae nom●ne Judaeus d●c●●tur, no● tam quidem ●●vis Iudaicus simpliciter censendus esset quam peregrinus semper cu● jur● quamplirima ●●ter cives. S●lden. loc. citat.  and did get to themselves the name of Jews: yet were restrained and debarred from Dignities, Magistracies and preferments, as also from some marriages which were permitted to the Israelites. He addeth a simile of strangers initiated and associated into the Church of Rome, who yet have not the privilege of Roman Citizens: whence we gather most apparently a distinction of the Jewish Church and the Jewish State; for as much as those Proselytes were embodied into the Jewish Church, and as Church-members did communicate in the holy ordinances of God, 
De anno civili judaeor cap 18. Neque enimà Templo, Sacrificiis, aut Conv u●ib●s sacris om●ino quis apud eos ex sententia ●liqua Excommunicationis, sive sivensi, sive alia hum●na arcendus er●●.  yet they were not properly members of the Jewish State, nor admitted to Civil privileges.  Civilian. 
But I find no censure nor punishment of offences in the Jewish Church, except what the civil power did inflict, no such censure as excommunication or separation from the Temple, synagogue or ordinances. And since you have cited Master Selden for you, I will cite him against you, for he saith in his late Book, that he who was separate or excommunicated among the Jews, was not excluded from the Temple, Sacrifices or holy Assemblies, but only debarred from the liberty of civil worship, so that he might not sit within four cubits of off his companion or neighbour.  Divine. 

Solden de Ihre nature. & Gent. li. 4. c. 9 Atque 〈◊〉 plane à communicatione orationis, & conventus, & omnis sancti commerci● relegabatur, ●●●madmodum ae hujusmodi an●themate, sub i●itii● Ecclesiae Christianae loquitur Tertullianus. Drusius Quast. & Resp. lib. 1. quaest. 9 Solcbant autem vet●res (Judaei) si qui● gravius deliquerat, primum eum mavere caelu Ecclesiastico: si non emendabat se, tum feritbant anathemate: quod si ne tum quidem redbat ad frugem, ultimo at postremo loco sa●●tizaba●t. Johannes Coch. annot. in Exc Gemar. Sanedrim. cap. 1. Qui simpliciter excommunicatu● est (menud●e) est ille quidem separatus à caetu, it a ut provero membro Ecclesiae non habeatur. Dr. Buxt●rf. dissert. de literis Hebraeor. th'. 49. hath observed a notable passage in Pirke, and in Iela●●●d●un, which maketh much for this po'nt in hand. It is concerning the Samaritans, who being circumcised by two Elders of Israel sent to them, and having received the book of the Law, were afterwards upon just causes excommunicated by Ezra. Quid secit Esr●● & Zerubbabel filius Shealtiel, & Jehosua filius Jehozadek? Convocaverunt totum caetum in Templum Domini, & ve●●re fecerunt trecentos Sacerdotes, tr●centos pueros, trecentas buccinas, & trecentos libros legis i● manu ●orum, qui elangeba●t, Levitae ●●o canebant & psallebant, & excommunicabant (i● lelammeden● {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that is, they did excommunicate in all the three degrees or kinds of excommunication) Cutheos' per secretum nominis Tetragrammati, & per Scripturam quae scripta suit in Tabulis, & per anathema domus judicii superioris, & per anathema judicii inferioris; Ne quis unquam ex Israele comederet panem Cuthaei, unde dixerunt; Quisquis comederit carnem Cuthei, perinde est ac si comederet carnem perei: it●● ne quisquam Cuthaeum faceret proselytum, h. c in Juda snum reciperet, &c. Whereby it is manifest, that the Jewish excommunication was a shutting out as well from sacred as from civil communion, and that by public Authority.  I shall do M. Selden so much right as to appeal from him to himself, for in another place where he writeth at greater length of the Jewish excommunication, he describeth it to have been a separation, not only from the former civil commerce and company in regard of that distance of four cubits, but also from communicating together in prayer and holy Assemblies. And that it was so, it is not only the most received opinion of Protestant Divines, but even of those who have devoted themselves to the study of the Jewish Antiquities, such as Drusius, Johannes Couh, L'Empereur, and others.  
Brughton also in his Exposition of the Lord's prayer, pag. 14. &c. tells us that the Jewish Church and the Apostolic Church, though they differed about traditions and about the Messiah, yet for government they agreed. He giveth instance in these particulars, the rulers of the Synagogue, the readers of the Law, and the Prophets, the qualities of a Bishop, or Elder, the providing for the poor, the manner of excommunication and absolution, the laws to bridle Elders from Tyranny: All these are the same in both, saith he. Now these men were most exquisitely acquainted with those studies and their Testimonies may serve instead of many more that may be added. Hereunto that distinction of 3. kinds of excommunication received from Elias in Thesbyte, Niddui, Herem, & Sammatha, whether we understand as some do, that Niddui was a separation according to the ceremonial law, and Herem the devoting of one to death, and capital punishment; or whether we distinguish betwixt Niddui & Herem (which two only are mentioned in the law) as we use to do betwixt excommunicatio minor, and major; which is the opin●on of others.  Civilia●. 
It may be there was a separation or ejection from the Temple, Synagogue, & worship, but I deny that this was done judicially or by the sentence of a Court, 
De anno civili, cap. 18.  for as M. Selden observeth, the very letter of the law, not any judicial sentence did exclude the unclean from the Temple.  Divine. 
I answer, men were excluded from the Temple and worship, either for ceremonial or moral uncleanness, the former is particularly determined in the law, the latter not so, but left as a necessary consequence from the law, for if God would have men kept back for ceremonial uncleanness, it may be for touching (though casually and unwillingly) a vessel, a seat, a cloth, a body, or somewhat else that was unclean; surely it was much more his will that such as are morally unclean by a profane or scandalous life, should not be admitted. However it was necessary that matters of fact should be examined by a Court, whether they did fall within the verge of the law or not. But what will you say, if I give you scripture for excommunication, by a judicial sentence. Ezra 10.8. we read of a mixed meeting of the Princes, Elders, Priests and Levites, where it was decreed that whosoever would not come to Jerusalem within 3. days, should be punished, with the forfeiture of all his substance; and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away. A double punishment Civil and Ecclesiastical, forfeiture and excommunication, according as that extraordinary occasion made a conjuncture and concurrence of the civil and the ecclesiastical Sanedrim at that time, Lyra, Hugo Cardinalis, Cajetan, and of ours Diodati, and Lavater, all upon the place (beside others who cite the place occasionally) do agree that the separation from the congregation ({non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} as the 70. read it, it is Kahal in the Hebrew) is meant of excommunication from the Temple and worship: even as that casting out mentioned, Isa 66.5. So in the new Testament this iniquity was established by a law, that whosoever should confess that Jesus was the Christ, should be cast out of the Synagogue, 10.9.22. and 12.42. and 16.2.  Civilian. 
But there is not in all the law of Moses any syllable of such an excommunication as you speak of, except you take that to be it, which is often repeated in the law, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Now that may be expounded either of capital punishment and cutting off by the hand of the Magistrate; or (as Ainsworth and M. Selden following the most part of the Hebrews expound it) of cutting off by the hand of God, that is, th●● God would not suffer such a one to live out half his days, but take him away by an untimous dea●h.  Divine. 
I know that both Jewish and Christian Interpreters have much differed among themselves, in expounding that commination of the Law. But I shall only offer my reasons against these two Glosses which you have mentioned, and then tell you what I conceive to be the true meaning. To expound all those places of the Magistrates cutting off men by death, were to make the Laws of God more bloody than Draco's: I appeal to yourself, do you think it at all credible, that God would have men put to death for eating of the fat, or the blood, though by chance, for making a perfume like the priestly perfume to smell, for touching a dead body, 
Exod. 30.38 Lev. 7.15.17. Num. 29.13. 20.  or a grave, or a Tent, wherein a man had died, or for touching something which he that was unclean had touched, and not being sprinkled thereafter with the water of separation: yet for these and the like ceremomoniall defilements and tresspasses, men were to be cut off from the Congregation of Israel Now for that other Exposition, of cutting off by the hand of God, that which they take for the ground and foundation of it, that is, that the cutting off, mentioned in the Law, is understood only of private sins, known to God only, and which could not be proved by witnesses, this I say, if it could be proved, would indeed make good their Interpretation, but the truth is, it is a mere conjecture, for which they have no warrant in the Word. Nay, the Word is against it: for the end of that cutting off, w●s that the Children of Israel might fear to do that, which they s●● so sore punished, Levit. 17 4.5. Which use they could not make of a divine judgement inflicted for a private sin. I know they do further object from Levit. 17.10. & 20.5.6. that the cutting off, was a work of God, not of men; But to that I say, it was not so, except in extraordinary cases, when men, who should have cut off the wicked; did it not: and this appears plainly from Levit. 20.4, 5. And if the people of the land hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: Then (Mark then, and in that case) I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off. Wherefore I conclude, that the cutting off in the Law, and especially, in the ceremonial Law, can be nothing else but Excommunication from the Church, and Communion in the holy things. Which as it is most received among our Expositors, so the Apostle. 1 Cor. 5. doth give us a hint of it: for as it is plain from verse. 6, 7, 8. that he alludes to the history of the Passover, Exod. 12. so when he saith, vers. 13. Put away from among yourselves that wicked person, he hath respect to, Exo. 12.19. Where it it is said, Whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the Congregation of Israel. All this I conclude with a Passage of Mr. William's his bloody Tenent, cap. 121. where though he doth not acknowledge a spiritual excommunication in the Jewish Church, yet he acknowledgeth such a coercive power in cutting off, as hath for the antitype and parallel of it Excommunication in the Ghristian Church. Out of that blessed temporal estate, (saith he) to be cast or carried captive, was their Excommunication or casting out of God's sight. 2 Kings 17.23. Therefore was the Blasph●●●● the false Prophet, the Idolater, to be cast out, or cut off ●●●m this holy land: which punishment cannot be parrallelld by the punishment of any State or kingdom in the world, but only by the excommunicating or out-casting of person or Church from the fellowship of the Saints and Churches of Christ Jesus in the Gospel; For this spiritual cutting off, he citeth 1. Cor. 5. Gal. 5. Behold he who hath pleaded most for the liberty of conscience, is forced to acknowledge the censure of Excommunication.  Civilian. 
But can you show any warrant fro● the New Testament for Church Censures and Excommunication, as an Institution and Ordinance of Christ. I know your Magna Charta, which you pretend to, is Mat. 18.17. Tell the Church, and if he hear not the Church, let him be unto thee, as an Heathen man, & a Publican. But the sense of that place, I take to be that which was given by Erastus and Bilson, that is, That in the case of private and civil injuries, the injured party should first of all seek right and reparation of the wrong, of the injuring party, which if it take not effect, then to do it before witnesses, and if that also prevail not, then to tell the Church, that is the Sanedrim of the Jews, which was a civil Judicature, and if the man that hath done wrong, will not stand to the sentence of the Sanedrim, that then one should deal with him as with an Heathen, or a Publican, that is, complain of him to the Roman Emperor or his Deputies. Mr. Prynne, in his late book called Independency examined, pag. 10. following Master Selden's judgement, holdeth, that by the Church, Matth. 18.17. is not meant any ecclesiastical Judicatory, but the civil Court, or Sanedrim of the Jews, Even as Ib. pag. 11. he holdeth the Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren, Act. 15. to be an undeniable Scripture Authority, for Parliaments as well as for Synods, to come together upon all like occasions. And as for these words, let him be thee as an Heathen and a publican, he understandeth the meaning to be, that not the Church, but the party offended, is to avoid his company: taking the same to be meant, 2 Thes. 3.14. a place which I have also heard alleged for Church discipline, and Censures.  Divine. 
Though Mr. Prynne be a man much esteemed by me, both for his sufferings, and much good service done by him in the Church, yet I must say, he wrongs both the Truth and himself, in taking upon him to go against the whole current of Interpreters, ancient and modern, without any evidence of reason: and he must remember, that in these particulars, he doth not so much oppose the Independents, as all the Reformed Churches, while as he goeth about to throw out of their hands the chief Scriptures upon which they ground Church Discipline. Now all the circumstances of the Text, make against that Exposition, and prove, That it is not a civil, but a spiritual Court, which Christ there establisheth. For 1. those words, If thy Brother trespass against thee, are not meant of personal or civil injuries (of which our Saviour Christ would not be Judge, Luke 12.14.) but as Augustine, Tostatus, and others do rightly expound them, they are to be understood, of all manner of scandals, by which we trespass against our Brother, in as much as we trespass against the law of Charity, which commandeth us to edify one another, and to promote the spiritual good one of another: now when a Christian doth not only not edify, but scandalize, which is a deterioration; yea, (so far as lieth in him) a destruction of his brother's soul; this is undeniably a great trespass against his brother: which kind of trespass, as the King, and head of the Church, Jesus Christ, whose Kingdom is not of this World was to take special notice of: so the coherence and depend●nce of the Text, giveth further evidence, that this, and no other kind of trespasses is here intended, there being so much spoken of scandals in the preceding passages of that Chapter.  
2. As the case supposed, so the end proposed is spiritual, that is, that the offended brother should reprove the offanding brother; and tell him his fault, and that for the good of his soul: If he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother; that is, thou hast rescued his soul by Repentance, from sin, and so from the wrath of God: wherein Christ had respect to that Law. Lev. 19.17. Thou shalt not hate thy Brother in thy heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.  
3. The persons judging, are not civil but ecclesiastical, Tell it unto the Church, now in all the New Testament, the name of the Church is not given to any civil Magistrate. Nay Christ himself doth immediately give us notice, that by the Church there he means the Ministers and Rulers of the Church, for thus he applieth it unto the Apostles, and their successors, Whatsoever ye shall bind, &c. and if two of you shall agree, &c. And here by the way, I must tell you, that if the Jewish Sanedrim were here mean● (as it is not) you could not thence conclude that a civil Court is meant, for there was an Ecclesiastical Sanedrim, distinct from the civil, as beside many other great Authors is proved by Constantinus, l' Emp. Annot. in C●●. Middoth, p. 188. and de Rep. Iud. p. 389. Which ecclesiastical Sanedrim were the rather to be understood in this Text, because the other Sanedrim was destroyed by Herod.  
4. The way and manner of proceeding, is also ecclesiastical, not civil; when Church governors meet about those things, it must be with Prayer, vers. 19 and it must be in the Name of Christ, vers. 20. which places, though they well agree to all holy Assemblies and meetings for Worship, yet the context showeth, that they are principally intended concerning Assemblies for Discipline and Church censures; and so Tostatus, Hugo Cardinalis, with our own Divines, do expound the Text.  
5. The censure is spiritual, as appeareth both by the ●llusion to the Jewish Excommunication (of which I have spoken before) in those words, let him be unto thee as a Heathen, or a Publican, and by the phrase of binding the soul, or retaining of sins, vers. 18. which power, our Lord elsewhere giveth to his Apostles, Mat. 16.19. Io. 20.23. forms of speech, which nowhere the Scripture useth of any civil power: only it is to be observed, that in these two places last cited, the Apostles get power to bind and lose by their Doctrine and Preaching, but here, Mat. 18. to bind and lose by Discipline, as appeareth by the use to be made of witnesses, vers. 16. that is, potestas clavium doctrinalis: this potestas clavium disciplinalis. That is mystical: this political. And whereas it is objected, that the Text saith not, let him be to the Church, but, let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican. I answer, it is supposed, that he must be such in the judgement of the Church, before he be such to me. This Pareus upon the place, proveth from the words that follow, Whatsoever ye shall bind, &c. therefore saith he, the Church is first to bind him, that is, Excommunicate him, and then he is to be to me as an Heathen, and a Publican. Beside, if it were not so, horrible confusion should follow, while as any private man may Excommunicate and cast off whomsoever he judgeth to be disobedient to the Church, though peradventure he hath no just cause to judge so.  
6. It was very far from the mind of Jesus Christ, that his Disciples should for private injuries prosecute one another, before the Roman Emperor or his deputy: This being so much blamed by the Apostle Paul. 1 Cor. 6.1. Dare any of you, having a matter against another, got to law before the unjust, vers. 6, 7. Brother go●th to law against Brother, and that before the unbeleavers. Now therefore, there is utterly a fault amongst you.  Civilian. 
Can you show any example or practice of such an Excommunication in the New Testament: for that place, 1 Cor. 5.5. I doubt shall not prove, there being not only great Authors, but great reasons for another Exposition, as Mo●li●s showeth in his V●tes. l. 2. tc. 11. namely that this delivering to Satan, was for bodily afflictions and torments, which was not in the power of ordinary Ministers to do, but was a Prerogative of the Apostles.  Divine. 
If you will, I can debate that with you, both from that very Text, and from other reasons, that this delivering to Satan, was an act not of the Apostle alone, but of the Presbytery of Corinth, whereby is meant Excommunication, which is a cutting off from the Fellowship of the Church, and so co●sequ●ntly. ● delivering to Satan, who reigns without the Church, and holdeth captive at his pleasure the children of disobedience. Or if you will, I can take a shorter course with you. For whatsoever may be the meaning of that phrase, tradere Satana, it is most plain, that Excommunication is in that Chapter, vers. 6, 7. Know ye not, that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, purge out therefore the old leaven, verse 11. If any man that is called a Brother, be a fornicatour, &c. with su●h an one, no no● to ●●●e. 
C●rtum quid●m e●t, Pa●lum ve●l● bun● incestum ●overi c●mmunion● Ec●lesia: ● d i● vued fier● ab i●sa Ecclesia: Cori●t●iaca, dice●s, vers. 13. Tollite ilium s●●leratum de medio vestrum v●lt ●nim id fieri mi●i●terii ordinarii ●●●h●rit●te M●lia. uttes, lib. 2. ●ap. 11.  vers. 12. do not ye ●udge them that are within, vers. 13. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 2 Cor. 2.6. Sufficient to such a man, is this punishment or censure) inflicted by many. But I suppose, I shall not need to prove Church-censures, and Excommunication in the Church of C●rin●h: which Moulins himself doth fully acknowledge to be held forth in that same place.  Civilian. 
I will think further upon these things.  Devine. 
You may do so, and withal, read what 〈◊〉 hath written against Erastus, and Wala●● against Wite●●ogardus.  Civilian. 
But tell me now your opinion of another matter, and that is concerning liberty of Conscience, and toleration of heretics and Se●taries for which there are so many books written of late, and so few against i●▪ I do not know what you will pronounce of it, from the Principles of your Profession, but I believe, that as in Germany, France, Holland, Poland, yea under the Turkish Tyranny, contrary religions, and opposite professions and practices, have been, and are tolerated upon State-principles, so it shall be England's unhappiness, though not to chose, yet to be necessitated to grant such a toleration, for avoiding a rupture in the kingdom, and for preserving an Union against the common Enenmy.  Divine. 
This Question about the Toleration of those whose way is different from the common rule which shall be established, must be both stated and resolved, cum ●rano salis. We must remember to distinguish person● from Corporations or Churches, and both these from errors. Again, to distingu persons, wh●ther godly and gracious, or loose and libertin, whether moderate and peaceable, or ●actious and turbulent; whether such as have deserved well o● the public, or such as have done either no service or a disservice. To distinguish Corporation, whether the Qu●stion be of such only as have a present existence, or of all who shall join to such a way afterward. To distinguish errors, whether practical or doctrinal onel●▪ whether fundamental, or circafundamentall, or neither of the two. To distinguish Toleration, whether absolute, or hypothetical and conditional, whether anywhere, or in som● few certain places only, whether indefinite and general, or limited and bounded, and if bounded, how far and how much: Whether ●uch Toleration as may stand with the solemn league and Covenant, or such as is inconsistent therewith; whether such as is profitable for the public peace, or such as is apparently destructive thereto. These and the like particulars I do not intend to fall upon at this instant. Only this I say, that to open a wide door, and to grant an unbounded liberty unto all sort of heretics and Sect●ries, (which is the thing that the good Samaritan, and John the Baptist, the blood, Tenent, and others of that kind do plead for as it is inconsistent with the solemn league and Covenant of the three kingdoms, by which we are obliged to endeavour the extirpation of Popery, prelacy, Superstition, heresy and Schism●, lest we partake in other men's sins, and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues: So it is in the own nature of it, an error so pernicious, so abominable, so monst●ous, that it maketh all learned men to stand amazed, and taken with horror, in so much that they can not at first gather their thoughts to put pen to paper against it. I know this liberty and Toleration was maintained by the Donatists of old and by the Socinians, Arminians, and Anabaptists of late▪ but it hath been constantly opposed by all that were sound and orthodox, both Ancient and modern, who have asserted the lawful use of a coercive powe● against those things, whereby (though under pretence of conscience) God is openly dishonoured, souls ensnared and destroyed, faith or piety subverted and overthrown: and further, the compelling of the outward man, though not to the practice of things indifferent (which compulsion I do not allow) yet to the practice of necessary duties, and to the external use of means and ordinances, by which through the blessing of God, men's hearts and consciences may be savingly affected and wrought upon. And I beseech you what else meaneth Asa's Covenant, 
2 Chro. 15.13.  That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death whether small or great, 
2 Chro 34.32.  whether man or woman. And what else meaneth Josiah's Covenant, 
Ezra 10.8.  whereof it is said, he caused all that were present in Jerusalem and Benjamin, to stand to it. And what else is that in Ezra, that whosoever would not come to Jerusalem to make a Covenant, and to put away the strange wives, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the Congregation of those that had been carried away, that is, Excommunicated. And what else is that other act of Josiah in putting down the Priests of the high Places. 
2 Kings 23.5.  And what say you to the Law of stoning those who did entice the people to turn out of the way wherein the Lord commanded them to walk, 
Deut. 13.5. 6.  saying, Let us go after other Gods and serve them.  Civilian. 
I would rather hear some Arguments from the New Testament, for I doubt these from the Old Testament shall be more subject to exception.  Divine. 
To me it is plain, that these things do as much concern us now, as the Jews of old, which whosoever denieth, must show, that either we may take no rules nor patterns from the Old Testament: or that the foresaid laws and practices were not intended by the holy Ghost to bind us, (as other things in the Old Testament do) but were ceremonial and typical, intended to bind the Jews only. Mr. Williams in his bloody Tenant (though I do not remember that anywhere he answereth to those particular passages which I have cited, yet) perceiving that such arguments from the Old Testament can not be taken off without this answer, that all these were typical and figurative: he therefore goeth much upon that ground, and so deviseth more types and figures in the Old Testament then ever anybody did before him, and pleaseth himself with such fancies and conjectures therein, as I dare say, will satisfy no indifferent Reader: and in effect making void by his principles all arguments from the Old Testament, so that we may not from the examples of the godly Kings of Judah, teach Christian Magistrates what their duty is, nor argue thus, God commanded that the Kings of Judah should have a copy of the Book of the Law by them, and read therein, that they should not multiply wives, &c. Therefore Christian Princes should search the Scriptures, 
Deut. 17.17, 18, 19  should not multiply wives, &c. or thus. The Priests and Levites had a sufficient maintenance. Therefore so should the Ministers of the gospel: or thus; The Jews were commanded to rest from all servile labour on the Sabbath day. Therefore so should Christians on the Lord's day: or thus; wars were lawful in the old Testament; Therefore they are lawful still. Or the like. All these shall be cast aside, upon this ground, they were typical, therefore no patterns to us.  
But because you desire an Argument from the New Testament: I will convince your judgement from thence also: Sure I am, I have better grounds in the New Testament, against the Toleration now in question, than Master John Goodwin hath found for it, in his Text, Act. 5.38.39. He holdeth that we may build upon Gamaliel's speech, as Authorised by God, there being nothing in all this speech (excepting only the historical Instances, the truth of which, it seems was generally known, and is attested by Josephus their great Historian) but what is fully consonant with the Word of God, saith he. And so he approveth the Sceptik Principles of that Nullifidian, who razeth the very foundation of the Christian Faith, and maketh it a very doubtful case whether the Apostles Doctrine was from God, or from men. But I proceed to my Arguments. First, you shall do well to remember what I said concerning Church censutes, from Matth. 18. under which scandalous and obstinate delinquents, do fall, the pretence of Conscience, being no exception for them. The Ministers of the Gospel have in readiness to revenge all disobedience, 2 Cor. 10.6. The Angel of the Church of Ephesus is commended, because of his zeal, in that he could not bear those who called themselves Apostles and were not. Revel. 2.2. Contrariwise, the Angel of the Church of Perga●●● is blamed, for this reason, because then hast there them that teach the doctrine of Balaam, &c. so hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Revel. 2.14.15. that is, because thou hast tolerated them, and hast not cast them out. It is thy fault, that they are there in the Church. The like challenge is sent to the Angel of the Church of Thyatira, vers. 20. I have a few things against thee, because thou suffered'st that woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach, and to seduce my servants, &c. That chapter is so clear for the point, that Master Williams acknowledgeth it proves fully, that Christ hath endued the Ministers and governors of his Church, with power to suppress Heresy and error, and the spreaders thereof, be who they will be. See the bloody Tenent. c. 57 So John the Baptist. pag. 63. confesseth that the Church of Thy●●ra was justly taxed, not only for not controlling and reproving jexebel, but also, in that they permitted her to seduce weak Christians, without cutting her off by the sword of the Spirit, the power of excommunication.  Civilian. 
I was about to answer the same, that if those places prove any thing, it is only the suppressing of heretics and schismatics by Church censures, not at all by the civil coercive power of the Magistrate.  Divine. 
I thought with myself, I should need say no more, having proved that heretics and schismatics, though miscarrying with so much opinion of conscience, as to think themselves Apostles or Prophets, may be censured and cast out of the Church (which is the case, Revel. 2.) I did never imagine but where the soul is punished with the greatest punishment which can be inflicted on earth, that is, excommunication; much more may the body be punished by the Magistrate, as the degree of the offence shall require: especially considering that the magistrate is a nursing father to the Church, 
isaiah 49.23.  and is to protect and assist her, not to suffer her authority and censures to be despised and set at nought. But to satisfy you yet more touching the magistrates part, consider well that passage Rom. 13.4. For he is the Minister of God to thee for good, but if thou do that which is evil be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the Minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.  Civilian. 
This place and all that you can say in that kind doth not warrant nor justify persecution, for the cause of conscience, but only the punishment of all such evil doers as do disturb the peace of the kingdom, or the course of civil justice, oppose magistrates or laws, traitors, rebels, murderers, felons, and the like. John the Baptist pag. 57 saith, If a breach of peace, the civil powers ought to redress it. 1. Tim. 2.1.2. But for the Magistrate to interpose in matters merely ecclesiastical, otherwise then spiritually, and as a Minister of the gospel, I find no warrant for it, in all the Gospel.  Divine 
Now you are come to your last refuge wherein I know you put great confidence: but I am as confident it cannot serve your turn, which I prove thus, 1. By this Tenent you give a more dangerous wound to the power of the civil Magistrate than you are aware of, for in stead of m●king him keeper of both Tables you make him keeper of the second Table on●ly, at least vindex of ● only, whereas God hath made him as well vindex as Custos utriusque Tabula. 2. In t●e place I last cited, the Apostle maketh no exception nor restriction, but will have all evil doers (to which category I suppose heretics and seducers do belong to be afraid of vengeance by the hand of the Magistrate. 
2 Chro. 19.6.  3. The Apostle there doth once and again call the Magistrate, The Minister of God, as it were purposely putting him in mind, that he judgeth not for man but for the Lord, and that he is to look most to things pertaining to God. 4. There may be a coincidency of those things which you put asunder: for example, suppose a Jesuit killing a Magistrate▪ or some other heretic killing one who hath been most opposite to him; or as sometime the case was) suppose men causing their children to go through the f●re as a sacrifice to their God Molech, 
●o. 16. ●.  all these (though murders) ye●●re done for Conscience sake, men being persuaded in their conscience, that they are doing good service to God, as it is said of those that killed the Apostles. What say you to that case▪ shall the punishment of those be pierce for the cause of Co●science. 5. I cannot marvel enough, that it should be heard from the mo●th of any Christian, that the Magistrate is to punish injuries done to the State, but not injuries done to the Chur●h▪ that he is to punish those who destroy men's bodies, but not those that destroy men's souls: that whosoever will draw away people from the obedience of the Magistrate, and of the law of the Land, must not be suffered: but they who will draw away people from the truth of the Gospel, 
2 Tim. 2.17, 18  and from the ways of God, such as Hymeneus and Philetus, who overthrow the faith of some, 
Act. 18.17.  and their word will eat, as doth a canker, must escape unpunished. And so Christian Magistrates and States, shall take up the maxim which Tacitus tells was holden by Tiberius Caesar, Deorum injurias Diis cura esse: but for their part, they shall stand by as Gallio did, and care for none of those things. Be astonished at this, O ye heavens.  Civilian. 
But in the mean time I can tell you one thing, that it is a mighty prejudice that lies in the minds of many against the Prysbetery, that tyranny and rigour do accompany it. And this now bringeth into my mind some other prejudices. I have seen a book come from Oxford, entitled, An Answer by Letter to a worthy Gentleman, who desired of a Divine some reasons, by which it might appear how inconsistent presbyterial Government is with Monarchy. In which I find many things which breed an Odium of that Government. Among other things, it tells me, 
Pag. 76.  that this is one of the Articles of the Presbyterian faith. No Minister preaching in public, sedition or Treason or railing at King, council, the Prince, judges, is accountable, or punishable by King, Parliament, council, or any Indicature whatsoever. But from all he may appeal to the Sanhedrum or Consistory, 
Pag. 26.  as the sole and proper competent judge. And as if this were a small thing not to subject to the Magisteate, they will have the Magistrate subject to them, insomuch that they may excommunicate the Magistrate, even the King himself if he obey them not: That the Presbytery hindereth the liberty of trade and commerce, 
Pag. 13, 14.15.  disgraceth and desameth young women for conversing familiarly with men, suffereth not landlords to sue for their rents, and the like. That they bring all cases and causes under their cognition and judgement, sub formalitate scandali, under the notion of scandal, and for the glory of God. It tells also a number of Stories and practical examples for confirmation of those particulars. What say you to that?  Divine. 
I have seen and read the book, which surely was written by the special inspiration of the father of lies, that the ●mple people who never yet saw a Presbytery, may be made afraid of it, as of some hellish monster, as the French Friars made the people believe, that the Huguenots were ugly monsters with swine's faces, and Asses ears. But men of understanding will not be taken with such bold and shameless calumnies as come from the pen of that son of Belial. I could name both the Author, and the lying Records of a persecuting Prelate, whence he borrowed his stories, in which there are many known untruths; and where there is any truth in the matters of fact which he relates, there is such addition of his own Interpretations of men's actions, such variation of circumstances, and such concealing of the true grounds, ends, and circumstances of such actions, as maketh them to appear quite another thing than they were. And if his stories of the speeches, actions, or opinions of particular men were all true (as they are not) yet how doth that prove that presbyterial government is inconsistent with Monarchy. Magistracy, Laws, Trading, Peace. &c. This must be proved from the principles or necessary concomitants of presbyterial government, not from the actions or speeches of this or that private man, especially they having so said or done not in any reference to presbyterial Government, but occasionally in reference to such or such persons or purposes. As now if I should rake up the dunghill of all the Treasons, Conspiracies, Oppressions, Persecutions, Adulteries, Blasphemies, Heresies, atheistical opinions, Superstitions, profanities of such or such Prelates, (of which the Histories of former times and late experience are full) and thence conclude that episcopal government is inconsistent with Monarchy, with the safety of the kingdom, with the liberty of the Subject, with the peace of the Church, with piety, &c. Surely that same Author would be ready to answer me, that this must be proved from their received principles, nor from particular practices. Now that Ministers preaching Treason, 
●●●el. ●●●●aen., tom. 1. pag. 413 Nullus au●em Rex bab●t porestatem constituend. prectium super aliquem Ecclesiasticum sacris or denibus obligatum, vel super membra, vel sanguinem, vel Saraed ejus, vel super aliquem de suis, qu●a quisque Ecclesiast: cus ut praedictus, babet potest●tē per leg●m Ecclesiasticam orob. and in Synodo, quodl●be: nocum●atum vel da●mum qued ei l●icus sa●iat, aut Rex aut alias. Item nu●rtenus tales Ecclesiasticus potest compels ad re●pond●●●●● ali●●●i extra Synodum, de delict is s●bi oppositis. Du●●nus de sacr. ecci. minist ●i 1. c. 2. canfesseth that de causes civilibus Clericorum, nan Sacerdotes elim, sed Praesi●es & mgis Magistratus ●●● s●●●ant, &c. Verum Constitutiones Romanorum Pontisicum, hu●e juri von parum derogevorun● quibus ca●cum est n●n so'um ut clevici ad Mag str●t●s tribunal i●●viti non trabantur, s●d ut ●● v●lo●tes ●uidem jurisdictioni Magstratus se subj●cere pas●●nl, s●ve civ●lis sit, sive criminal●s camsa.  or committing any other trespass punishable by the law of the land, is not to be judged by the civil Magistrate, nor any civil Court, but may appeal from all these to the ecclesiastical Judicatory, is none of our principles: but it is a Popish and prelatical usurpation, as appeareth by the British ecclesiastical constitutions, collected by Spel●●an. So that the Oxfordian missed his mark extremely when he charged it upon Presbyterians, who hold that Ministers are as much subject unto, and as punishable by the Magistrate, as any other of the Subjects. And as Ministers are subject to every ordinance of man, so we suppose the Christian Magistrate will not take it ill to be subject to all the ordinances of Jesus Christ, I shall give you a short but clear account of our judgement concerning both these, in the words of the second book of the Discipline of the Church of Scotland, Chap. 1. As Ministers are subject to the judgement and punishment of the Magistrate in external things, if they offend: so ought the Magistrates to submit themselves to the Discipline of the Church, if they transgress in matters of C●●science and Religion. And lest you should think this proper to the classical and synodical government: M. Cotton will tell you it is just so in the congregational government, of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, pag. 53. As the Church (saith he) is subject to the sword of the Magistrate in things which concern the civil Peace: so the Magistrate (if Christian) is subject to the keys of the Church, in matters which concern the peace of his conscience, and the Kingdom of heaven. The latter cannot be denied in thesi, no more than the former: and when it comes to the Hypothesis, there is much to be trusted to the prudence and discretion of Pastors and ruling Elders; and when all comes to all, the failing is more like to be in the defect, then in the excess. But to say, that a Magistrate, because a Magistrate, is not bound in conscience to submit himself to the ordinance of Discipline, though he shed innocent blood, commit adultery, bl●spheame the name of God, &c. may infer for aught I know, that a Magistrate is not bound to be subject to any of all the ordinances of Jesus Christ. It is condemned as an error in Plato, that he held it lawful for a Magistrate to make an officious lie, for the good of the commonwealth; but not lawful for a Subject. The error of our Civilians is greater, who will have Magistrates so to rule us, that Christ shall not rule them.  Civilian. 
I suppose it is high time to adjourn, till we 〈◊〉 another occasion of amicable and free confe●e●● which time it is like enough our opinions ●●y●● 〈◊〉 accord. The points of which we have talked a●● 〈◊〉 many and weighty, which therefore I will take to 〈◊〉 second thoughts. And so much for this time, Far- 〈◊〉.  Divine. 
Consider what I say, and the Lord give you understand●●● in all things.  
FINIS.   

Errata.  
PAg. 12. l. 20. country, read County. p. 15. l. 13. op●●r. up●● p● l. 2. 3. civil worship, r. civil fellowship. Ibid. l. 15. C●●●●, r, 〈◊〉 Ibid. in Marg. redbat, r. redibat. p. 21.10. that, r. add that. p. 〈◊〉 l. 13. care, r. law. Ibid. ex, r. &. p. 30. l. 17. Witen●ogurdus, r. 〈◊〉 bogurdus. Smaller errors and punctations, and the like, the 〈◊〉 der will pardon.