A Seasonable DEFENCE OF Preaching: AND THE Plain Way of it.  
LONDON: Printed by M. Clark, for H. Brome, at the Gun in St. Paul's Churchyard.  
MDCLXXVIII.   

A DIALOGUE.  A. 
MY Friends, you are well met here; I suppose your business now is walking; and I am for a turn or two with you.  B. 
You may well guests so; for you seldom meet us here, in the Church, upon any other occasion.  A. 
I wish you had spoken that Penitently; So I am sure you ought to have done. And if you had come a little sooner, you had learned that duty from a very good Sermon.  B. 
A Sermon! 'Twas never well with the world since we have had so much Preaching.  A. 
To the same purpose said the Idolatrous Jews to the Prophet Jeremiah, that since they had left to burn Incense to the Queen of Heaven, they had wanted all things, and had never seen good days. All times have afforded matter enough of complaint, and I must confess there hath been a sort of Preaching that hath greatly contributed to the evils of ours: but in this place, and such like, there is, I hope, no danger of hearing any of those pestilential Doctrines, that once poisoned the public Air. I am sure the true Primitive Christianity teacheth things that would cure all our maladies were they duly heeded, and put in practice: I need not tell you how earnestly it every where presseth Humility and Modesty, Patience and Self-denial, Charity and Peace, Mortification to the world, and Conscientious submission to Governors. These our Ministers preach, and I suppose you will not say, that such Preaching promotes the evils of the times; if it do, 'tis very accidentally, and so, as the Grace of God is turned into lasciviousness, and the strive of his Spirit may contribute to men's greater hardness.  B. 
I speak not against Preaching; but we have too much on't.  A. 
We have more reason to thank God for the plenty, than to quarrel at the abundance. It would be very humoursome and foolish to complain that the Rivers run with more water than is necessary for our occasions; and 'twould have been absurd perversencss in the Israelites to have murmured, because more Manna fell than they could use.  B. 
Do you not think then that there may be overdoing in this?  A. 
Yes doubtless; when all religious offices are run into Preaching; when that excludes the public Prayers, and Catechising; when private Preaching days are set apart without Authority, to humour the wantonness of vain people; all these are overdoing.  B. 
But is not constant Preaching twice every Sunday, besides occasional weekly Sermons, too much?  A. 
It may be too much for the strength and health of the Minister; it may be too much, where the people will not frequent those afternoon Sermons, or are prejudiced against them; it may be so in Country Parishes, and where no remarkable inconvenience ariseth from the omission of them: But in Cities and great Towns, (as the times are) they are in a manner necessary; since without them, people would idle more about, and more would run to the Conventicles; and 'twould occasion the reproach of laziness, on our Ministers, and turn divers off from the Church, that are kept in tolerable order by this double diligence.  
There is not just so much Preaching set and stated by the Laws of Christ, and the Church, as must not be exceeded; but so much is due as Edification, Peace and Order require; now this is more or less, according as circumstances of times are; and ours are such as make it very behooveful for Ministers to abound in this work; what is grievous in it is to them, who have much more labour imposed on them than former times expected, and in stead of being advanced in proportionable maintenance, and encouragement, that is fallen as much (or more) than their work is increased. So that 'tis indeed very hard upon them, but we, the people, have no reason to complain.  B. 
But Preaching being so frequent and common, becomes contemptible by it; and is so much the less heeded.  A. 
This is too true: and 'tis a great evil and discouragement to those that labour in the Word and Doctrine: but what help foe rit? To restrain and put a stop to the course of Preaching to cure this abuse, would in likelihood be followed with a train of greater Evils; and as circumstances are, it could not be done, without manifest danger to the great Interests both of Church and State. If the regular Clergy should leave frequent Preaching, the Conventicle-meetings would swallow all: and therefore, upon the whole, whatever is to be thought of the thing itself, nakedly, and abstractedly considered, it is not, I think, any matter of just complaint, that there is so much Preaching: where the fault is not in the quality, the plenty is no grievance.  C. 
For my part I must confess I seldom hear Sermons, I love the Prayers of the Church, and I care not much for Preaching.  A. 
It is a great unhappiness to mankind, that we are so apt to run from one extreme into another: In the late times (and still among some) Preaching and Hearing were in a manner all the Religion: and the Prayers of the Church despised, and excluded; and now, some on the quite contrary, pretend to magnify the public prayers, but vilify Preaching; and make Hearing nothing. So that one duty and part of Religion is set up to conflict and destroy another. And I observe, that usually people of this pretence, do in good earnest care for neither.  
Preaching is an Evangelical Institution, and the Commission given the Apostles was, that they should go and teach all Nations: and Saint Paul saith, 'twas necessary for him to Preach the Gospel, and woe to him if he did it not; and that he was not sent to Baptism but to Preach. 1 Cor. 1. 17. viz. not to do the former chiefly. Faith comes by hearing; and how shall they hear without a Preacher? This was the way whereby God conveyed his mind unto men in all times. Noah was a Preacher of Righteousness; and God spoke unto them of old, by the preaching of the Prophets. I need not Preach more on this plain and well known Subject.  C. 
But ours I suppose is not like the Apostolical and Prophetical Preaching.  A. 
It is not indeed like theirs in respect of the immediate inspiration which the Prophets and Apostles had, but our Ministers have not. It is not like in respect of the Authority of an immediate mission, assisted by the miracles they were enabled to perform; it is not like in respect of the persons Preached to, who were chiefly Infidels; or the circumstances of the action, without the settled forms of decency, which now are used, but could not be then. But as to the matter, and the ends, which are the main things, our Preaching is as theirs was; our Ministers Preach the same Jesus in the circumstances of his Birth, Life, Death, Resurrection, Ascension, Mediation, and all the rest; the same doctrines, duties, encouragements, rewards and punishments: with the same design of persuading men in order to the glory of God, and the Salvation of their Souls, as the Apostles, and Primitive Preachers did.  C. 
All these were necessary to be Preached to men while they continued in Judaisme, or Heathenism; but what need of them now, when they are believed and entertained in the world?  A. 
There is still need, and will be so to the world's end. There are young that must be initiated, and adult that are to be confirmed; there are weak to be strengthened; and doubting to be resolved, and settled; there are Pious to be directed, and Wicked to be reproved; There are Heretics and other Erroneous, and many who at the bottom are Infidels, that must be confuted, and withstood: These needs are and will be still, and Preaching is the ordinary means that God hath appointed in his Church to minister to such occasions, so that this was not a temporary ordinance to serve the first times only, but is of perpetual necessity and use. And therefore when our Saviour delivered the Commission to the Apostles to teach all Nations, he gave it to them and their successors, and annexed a promise of his perpetual help, which continues still, and will always, viz. that he would be with them to the end of the world.  C. 
Well, well! I think I know as much as the Preacher can tell me; and therefore shall not trouble myself much with hearing Sermons.  A. 
No wise man will think you the more knowing for that opinion. You have read what one that knew a great deal said, Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit, there is more hope of a fool than of him, Prov. 26. 12. And another, He that thinks he knows any thing, knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Cor. 8. 2. For even Apostles, and the greatest, confessed that they knew but in part, and saw through a glass darkly. 1 Cor. 13. 9 And Solomon you know hath pronounced roundly against opiniators, saying, That 'tis the fool that rageth, and is confident, Prov. 14. 16. But if you did know so much, that you were not to be taught, yet since others do not, and Preaching is necessary for their wants, you ought to encourage their attendance by your example, though you had no other reason to hear Sermons: Yea you would have need however to hear on your own score; For the design of Preaching is not to teach men new things; not always to inform the understanding in matters before unknown; but sometimes it gives order and method to our thoughts, which perhaps were perplexed, and so sets things in their right place, helping us to clearness of conception, which is a great advantage: It is designed to bring known things to our minds, to render them present to our thoughts, to awaken consideration, and by that to excite the affections, and engage the practice. It is not so much our want, that we do not know our duty, as that we are dead, and cold, and averse to practise what we are acquainted with; so that it is the business of Preaching to set before us the proper motives, and considerations to move us to suitable action. The grand cause of men's sins and neglects is inconsideration, and Preaching is a means to cure that. And let me ask you, whether you do not sometimes find yourself much moved by what is said, and pressed by another, when you had had the same things in your mind before, without effect?  C. 
I cannot deny that; but I see but little good that Preaching doth in the world: Men remain the same after all their hearing.  A. 
More good, many times, is done than appears; and I doubt not but it is so in the present case. There are seeds of Picty and Virtue sown in the Soul, that show themselves not a long while after, till time, further consideration and occasion bring them forth; many convictions lodged in the consciences of wicked men, that lie there like fire in a flint, till they are excited, and then they become means and instruments of repentance: many hints of truths taken without present emotion, that afterwards much influence the understanding and practice, some habitual fear of God, and love and esteem of religion, planted insensibly in the mind, that in their season work great effects; and I doubt not but by these, men that are very bad, are in divers instances restrained and rendered less wicked than otherwise they would be. And though I have as deep a sense of the vileness of the world as most men have, yet I question not but that it would be very much worse were it not for Preaching; many there are who publicly own, and show the benefit they receive from it, and 'tis fit the River should run on, though but few men, or beasts are refreshed by it.  C. 
We have indeed read of great effects of Preaching heretofore, as of Ionas on the Ninevites, and St. Peter's on the three thousand converted at one Sermon; and Orpheus and others among the Heathens, have done strange things by the force of their Poetry and Eloquence; but now we see no such things; which is a plain indication that our Preaching is little worth.  A. 
'Tis an ill measure to judge of the worth of things by their success. The instances you give are great, but as considerable Preachers as those have not succeeded, as they did. You know how it was with Noah in reference to the old world, to whom he preached many years without success on any, besides some of his own family: Lot, no doubt, exhorted and reproved the Sodomites, but to how little purpose? The Prophets were earnest and powerful in their Preaching, and yet few believed their report, but the people continued still a stubborn and perverse generation. Our Saviour preached to many that would neither receive him, nor his doctrine, notwithstanding the divinity of his person, and the power of his miracles; And St. Paul, one of the most powerful of Preachers, after great pains with the Thessalonians seems to fear that he had laboured in vain with them, 1 Thes. 3. 5. and after much instruction bestowed on the Hebrews he complains that though for the time, they ought to have been teachers, they had still need to be taught again which were the Principles of the Oracles of God. Hebrews 5. 12. So that the want of success is not always justly chargeable on the Preaching. And ours certainly hath as great a subject, as great ends, as great motives, and as great helps as ever any, bating the immediate and extraordinary, had.  C. 
Therefore doubtless the defect is in the Preaching, and our Preachers have not the way, or ability to use those advantages.  A. 
Our Preachers are men, and have imperfections; and I confess there are divers sorts of Preaching that have no persuasive force in them: But yet many that have moved much, have been in their persons, knowledge, and other natural talents as indifferent, as generally our Divines are: and some of our Preaching is as substantial, plain and forceable, both as to the matter, and manner of it, a perhaps any Age since the Apostles hath yielded; and yet such doth not prevail. There is therefore somewhat more in it than you imagine.  C. 
Pray what?  A. 
In order to your information in this matter, I entreat you to consider, that in all affairs, both of nature and morality, the seemingly greatest and fittest means, many times, produce nothing; when things mean, and to appearance, contemptible, work wonders. This might be exemplified in divers of the great changes of the world, and is to be seen daily in the variations that happen in the Spirits, and Actions of particular men. There are certain dispositions required in the Subject, in order to its being affected, or altered by the Agent: where those dispositions are, a small matter makes great impression; but where they are not, the greatest effects nothing: The most warm Sun, and seasonable showers cause no verdure on a rock; when a few kindly beams, and favourable drops make the grass shoot in the fruitful meads. There are analogous preparations and dispositions in the spirits of men, that arise from the concurrence of many circumstances, the conjunction of which is not observed: where such are as are proper to incline the subject, mean instruments work mightily, where they are wanting, the same, yea and those that in themselves are more potent and forcible, are fruitlessly employed. Now under the appearance of the same principles, inclinations, humours and appetites, there is a vast insensible diversity in these unheeded circumstances; so that one is powerfully moved by that which no way affects another; as we see in a trivial instance of one man's being inflamed by the passion of love by the sight of an agreeable beauty, that is nothing taking to another, equally amorous: and the smallest thing kindles him that is so insensibly disposed, when all the charms of the same person are lost upon another. I give this instance, not out of lightness in so serious a matter, but because I cannot at present think of a better, that so plainly illustrates what I endeavour to represent.  C. 
This shows indeed how particular men may be sometimes moved by small things, when the same, and greater, make no impressions elsewhere. But how is it that multitudes are strongly affected together, as in the case of St. Peter's three thousand, and the sudden conversion of whole Nations?  A. 
The persons that were instruments in those wonderful conversions, were acted by an extraordinary Spirit, which gave them extraordinary assistance, and prepared the hearts of men for those wonderful changes; and it was not the bare natural force of their Preaching, and Eloquence, that was the cause of those mighty operations: So that these are not fair instances in our case.  C. 
But will you not grant that Preaching hath generally affected more in other of the ordinary Ages of the Church, than it doth in this?  A. 
I must grant it, and think that it scarce ever influenced the people less.  C. 
Well! and is not the cause of the want of ordinary success, the meanness and defects of the present preaching.  A. 
You may gather from what I have been saying that I do not judge so. As in particular persons, so in public bodies, and in whole Nations there may be a concurrence of favourable or cross circumstances that either dispose to, or hinder the effect and influence of Preaching. You remember that in the beginning of the late unhappy times, the Preaching of the Puritan Ministers (than so called) did great things, strangely prevailing upon the people; and there were no doubt considerable changes wrought upon many of their lives by it, at least, to reformation from open profaneness, and irreligion; which we have no need to ascribe to their having greater matters to say than were said before, or since: But there was then a concurrence of many things that disposed the multitude to be so affected. They were much scared with the noise of Superstition and Popery, by those who pretended themselves to be the only Preachers, and defenders of the pure, and Spiritual religion: and people that are frighted are softened, and rendered very impressible: and then, the pretences of those men were very taking, it was all light and mystery, and Spirituality that they taught, set out by new conceits, and new phrases, by great earnestness and fervours of mighty zeal, which things especially when they are new, fill the imagination, and by that work exceedingly upon the affections of the vulgar. Besides which, the times were troubled, and discontented; men were angry with their Governors, and dissatisfied with the legal establishments (which than 'twas part of the power of godliness to oppose) And this begat the greater opinion of, and affection to those Preachers, and their Doctrines: Theirs were looked on as the only Soulsaving Sermons, and those conceits contributed mightily to the success of them: so that they could not choose but prevail upon warm, imaginative people, so prepared and disposed. But when the constitutions of the Church were destroyed, and those ways no longer met opposition, when the novelty of the notions and phrases was over, and the things began to grow stale, and accustomed to them, than you may remember, that those moving Preachers affected nothing so much as they had done before: Then we heard great complaints of the comparative unfrequency of conversions, and the loss of that warm zeal that the people were acted by in the former season. Such were the dispositions that contributed to their popularity: But our Ministers are under the quite contrary disadvantages, so that 'tis a rare thing if any of them be very popular, though never so excellent Preachers.  C. 
Pray what are those disadvantages you speak of?  A. 
The generality of the people have their fancies prepostest with the notions, phrases, and ways of those other men, and so are prejudiced, or indisposed to that Preaching that would instruct them better. Many of them follow those Teachers into Conventicles, and several that do not, have an hankering after the Garlic and Onions; and others are cold and indifferent to such matters one way, or other: The hurt that the irregular leading men did by their Preaching, hath begot in divers a dislike and disesteem of the thing itself: and for their sakes also the Persons of our Ministers undergo disrespect and contempt: Their practices have begot in many an aversion, or at least a disregard to the Clergy, as such, not distinguishing between the nocent and the innocent: Atheists, Papists, fanatics, the debauched livers, and the covetous enviers, make it their business to slander, vilify, and expose them. The preferments that are good raise envy, the vast number of mean and poor Vicarages beget contempt, and both the one and the other, as ill will can take occasion, are applied to the whole Order.  C. 
But do you not think the present Clergy have a great many faults that deserve the disrespect that is fallen on them.  A. 
So big a body of men cannot be without faults: but 'twould be too great a diversion from our present business to discourse what I have to say of that now, I may take another occasion to talk with you fully about it; I shall only note at present, that they suffer for others faults as much, or more, than for their own. Many of the old Romish Priesthood got great possessions by abusing the credulity of the people at their death; and the contrary humour prevails so much now, that scarce any thing is given by Will to Clergy or Church uses: even the little that is left is thought too much, and every one (almost) is nimming, and catching from them what he can. The Fanatical and Seditious Clergy Preached us into Rebellion, and many are so set against the whole Order by it, that they cannot endure any of that gown, though most opposite to those principles and ways: Now the case being thus as to their faculty and persons, it cannot be expected that their labours should be very taking; and since there is such an unhappy conjunction of so many other circumstances to indispose the people to the present Preaching, it is no wonder our Preachers have not that influence, and lead not the populace, as some others have done.  C. 
But the nonconforming Preachers do it still, though the Novelty you spoke of be over, which is a sign it was not that which occasioned their so great prevalency, and success.  A. 
Novelty was one of the concurring circumstances mentioned; that is gone indeed, but the others are revived, and new added, the fears of Popery, the opposition to establishments, the discontent, the glory of being thought more godly, the fancy of persecution, and such like, are as formerly: and there are over and above, the great excess of Atheism and Profaneness, that the scandals they have brought on Religion have occasioned; and their pity towards their Teachers whom they look on as oppressed, by being displaced: These make them stick close, and to hear their Preachers with more affection, and zeal of attention, which affords them advantages for fame and applause. But for all this, though when they declaim against Idolatry, Superstition, Will-worship, Formality, the people sigh and take on, and seem to be much moved; yet let them but Preach heartily and home against malice, censoriousness, bitter zeal, lying, slandering, schism, disobedience to lawful Governors, spiritual pride, waywardness, fondness towards uncertain opinions, and such like sins of the parties; they will then find very cold entertainment of their doctrine, and move no passions by it, but rage and animosity against themselves; and the consequents, withdrawings from their meetings, and bitter revile of their persons. So that indeed their Teachers how powerful soever esteemed have not power to move them to any thing contrary to their humour, and the corrupt interest of their party: and therefore I never heard but of one man among them who durst venture to tell them plainly and honestly their own sins; and him, though otherwise the most considerable person that goes with them, they worry, and persecute with their bitterest reproaches and invectives.  D. 
For my part I think the way for our Ministers to bring the people back again to our Church, would be to outpreach those Teachers which you so much condemn.  A. 
But who shall be judge what sort of Ministers outpreach the other. The people so disposed and prepossessed, as I have shown ours generally are, will always judge on the side of the men that flatter them, and cant in their phrases, and stand in opposition to the Government; so that though our Ministers spoke all like Angels, and all theirs brayed like Asses, those people would give the power and spirituality on their side. I suppose, you know the Apologue, the Nightingale and Cuckoo sung, the Ass was judge; The appeal was made, and the sentence was, That he could not deny but the Nightingale did well, but for a plain Song he was for the Cuckoo.  D. 
They will confess indeed that there is not so much Eloquence and fine language in their Sermons, but they are commended and followed for their Plainness.  A. 
Plainness is one of the best characters any Sermon, or other Discourse can have; and he is the Speaker that hath the art to be plain. But one of the greatest faults I find with those men's Sermons is, that they are not so. They generally state their doctrines confusedly, in words metaphorical and ambiguous; and direct to practise mystically, and obscurely in phrases, and odd schemes of speech, not understood, and scarce intelligible; as hath been sufficiently shown in divers late Books. These the people having been used to, by them in the late times, though they understand no meaning in them, yet they take them to be plain; at least to be so to spiritual understandings, which they presume their own are. Another part of their Plainness consists in homely similitudes, and rude and blunt allusions, accommodated to the humour of the vulgar, who love such familiar Preaching, as they call it, which is indeed a debasing of Religion, and exposing what they deliver to the scorn of those of a better relish. Whereas our Ministers represent their doctrines and instructions in clearness of thought, and simplicity of speech, without nonsensical mysteries, and words without meaning. This I am sure is so in those that I hear, and I hope most other regular Ministers endeavour the same.  D. 
And yet I have heard people complain that they cannot understand those Ministers.  A. 
Some would say, they have been so much used to nonsense, that sense is a hard thing to them: Plainest things may seem difficult to those that are not accustomed to hear them. Our Ministers find it necessary sometimes to show the reasonableness of the principles and duties of the Christian religion, for the assistance of those of more advanced understandings, against the pretences and assaults of Atheists and Infidels: and 'tis impossible so to express all the matters that concern those great subjects, as that every vulgar head, that hath not been used to thinking, and deep reasoning, should presently take them. No, these though never so plainly discoursed will require manly, exercised minds, or they will not be received, or comprehended; and Ministers must divide the word to every one his portion, and not always speak to one sort. If there be any thing in this complaint, here I am sure is the ground, which the Preachers cannot help, except they could create understandings for their hearers: Otherwise they endeavour, profess and practise Plainness: and in those subjects too, as far as the nature of the thing will bear. Their ornament and all they pretend as language, is Plainness: and the great fault they accuse the others of is want of it: you may see in their books against them that they chiefly reprove, and expose those men for their affectation of mysterious nonsense, and words without knowledge, that is, for their not being intelligible, and plain.  D. 
Plain Preaching doubtless is best: and that it may be is the reason that the most learned men are not the best Preachers; for they speak in a scholarlike way, and cannot descend to ordinary capacities.  A. 
I have indeed often heard that spoken as a maxim, but though it hath some show of truth, yet there is much mistake, if not malice against Learning in it. There are a sort of learned men who have spent most of their time, and pains upon Languages and Antiquities (things in their kind very good and useful) others whose chief employment hath been School-Divinity, and the spinosities of controversy: and these of each kind, generally get great fame for learning. But then, perhaps, they do not exercise themselves in Preaching, which is a faculty very distinct from those studies, and requires proper helps and endeavours, and therefore it happens, when such Preach, that their Sermons are dry and harsh, savouring of the crabbedness of their studies and having little of the genius of moral and practical Divinity: This I know is the case of some, I say not of all the learned men of those sorts. And this I think is the occasion of the observation. But then there is another sort of learned men, whose design hath been to study things, to furnish their minds with clear and right conceptions, to make observations on human nature, the manners and actions of men, to turn their thoughts, after due preparations, towards practical Theology, to take parochial charges, and to exercise themselves in frequent Preaching: And these are by their learning and knowledge enabled to speak with the most judgement, propriety and plainness. For (as I intimated before) it requires parts and understanding to be plain. He must think distinctly and clearly that would teach so: and the true useful learning is the proper instrument to enable a man for that.  D. 
But if so much knowledge and understanding is necessary to the constituting a true and plain Preacher, methinks we should not have so many in that business: for the maintenance of Ministers is in most places so small, that it will not afford encouragement for such men; and others that are unqualified disparage the profession, and do mischief to the public.  A. 
If I should speak to the thing itself, I should say, that as the maintenance for Ministers, and the consequents are, possibly a much less number of Preachers might suffice; But our circumstances must be considered: The common people count almost nothing else Service, and discharge of duty in supply of a Cure, but Preaching: and the Dissenters carry all by that, so that as our affairs are, general indifferent Preaching may be more expedient, than much better, when more limited and restrained. But as to this, the Governors of the Church are the best Judges of what is fit, and we are to acquiesce in what they ordain.  C. 
I think that neither they, nor we need make so much ado about it, for Preaching is no part of Divine Worship.  A. 
I believe you are out in that, for pray what do you call Divine Worship?  C. 
Prayer, and Thanksgiving, and Sacramental Communion.  A. 
You name me some of the parts of Worship, but what is the general nature, and notion of it? Is it not the solemn acknowledging and honouring of God, in the ways he hath appointed?  C. 
Well! and what then?  A. 
Then! it follows that Preaching is Worship, and so is hearing. For Preaching is publishing God's mind and will, that the people may know his truth, and obey his laws: and are not his Wisdom, Holiness and Legislative Authority thereby glorified? If they are not known, how shall they be believed? if not believed how can they be honoured? and how can they be either known or believed without being published? how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a Preacher? Rom. 10. 14. This is part of his Homage and Worship, he is sent to Preach the Gospel. And Public Hearing God's word preached, is part of the people's Worship, since thereby we solemnly acknowledge, that he is our Lord, and that we desire to know how we may acceptably serve him: That he is our teacher, and we are willing to be instructed by his word declared and explained by his messengers: That in him is our supreme happiness, and that we are desirous to know how we may enjoy him; and all this is doing solemn honour to God our maker, and why this should be denied to be Worship, I cannot tell.  C. 
This I have often heard; as I suppose you have also.  A. 
It is true, but we should not receive every bold saying to the prejudice of our duty. There are many such that pass for current among those that are willing to entertain them, that would not bear the trial; and we ought to examine the things we hear before we admit them.  C. 
I shall not differ from you in that. But pray don't you think that Catechising is better and more useful than so much Preaching?  A. 
Such comparisons are odious. One duty should not be commended to the disparagement of an other; each aught to have its place. And indeed Catechising is a sort of Preaching; it is but another way of teaching the principles of Christian Religion; and is no doubt very useful, and much needed: so that the Pulpit-Preaching should not exclude this, both because the Church hath required it, and because that will enter and make impression one way, that will not another. And Catechising hath been used in the best ages of the Church with very good success. This you know our Minister doth perform one season of the Year; till all the youth is gone over that he can get to that exercise: and during all that time he Preacheth also in the afternoon upon some Catechistical head, in order for the instruction of the Men and Women, as well as Children. So that as Preaching doth not exclude Catechising, neither doth Catechising exclude that. 〈◊〉 is double labour I confess for the Preacher so to do, but the People (at least in great Towns) will not be contented without the afternoon Sermon, and a Minister cannot do his duty to the Church, and his charge, without the other, in fit times. On this occasion I must take notice to you, that generally the people are very cold, negligent, and wanting to their children in this matter, in that they do not duly catechise them at home, and do their parts for the instructing them in the principles of Religion; without something of this kind, what is done in public will not signify much: And 'tis through the want of domestic instruction, that people grow up so much in ignorance, and are thereby so apt to be blown about by every wind of vain doctrine; and to be drawn away from the Church by every pretender that whistles them either to the Church of Rome, on the one hand, or the Sects on the other.  C. 
But Catechising you say is Preaching, and what! would you have private men Preach?  A. 
Yes, every private Christian may and aught to Preach in this sense. Every such is a Priest to his own family, that is, it is his duty to teach them the great things of Religion, according to the best of his skill, and knowledge. This is one way to provide for our families, and 'tis the most necessary. Men had better neglect the getting their Children and Servants Bread and clothes, than to omit the care about this greater and more needed provision. 'Tis noted to the honour of the holy Patriarch, That he would teach his Children. Timothy was taught the Scriptures from a youth, and all Parents are required to bring up their Children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Were not this duty so much neglected, Ministers would find their people more teachable, and less uncapable of the greater and stronger truths that they yet know not; more tenacious of, and better settled in those that they know already, and more able to shame, and to resist the attempts of Gain-sayers.  
Among all the Preaching we have, this is very much needed, and the great defect that is the occasion of most of our Churchmaladies lies here. We are very apt to catch at any thing that may fasten a blame on our Ministers, when there is the least show of neglect on their parts; I wish we could be sensible of, and reform this great one of our own.  C. 
But what think you of the Homilies? Are not they very useful, and fit to be read in Churches, instead of so much other Preaching? For my part I should like that.  A. 
The Homilies contain very good, pious, and wholesome instructions and doctrines; and in due place and time may be used with great profit and advantage. But I suppose you do not pretend to have them in to exclude all other Preaching; For that would render the abilities of learned Ministers (as to this part of their office) useless. There are many occasions which those discourses make no provision for; and by such a practice the people in all likelihood would be very much discontented, if not inflamed. I suppose therefore you mean not that the Homilies should thrust out all other Preaching, but that in some places and times, they might be profitably used.  C. 
No, I think it would be well if they were generally enjoined; and such others added to them as should be thought seasonable, and fit.  A. 
I have as great a reverence for that Book as you, and as great a sense of the inconveniences that arise from the defects of many Preachers. But we must not always judge of things, as they are nakedly in their natures, but circumstances must be weighed. Public Governors are not only to consider the goodness, but expediency; and in reference to a due judgement in that, many extrinsical matters are to be taken into the account. Now as our case is we have (blessed be God) plenty of learned and most excellent Preachers (as many I believe as any Age or Nation ever had) Those have bestowed much time, pains, and cost for the furnishing themselves with abilities for the Pulpit; and after all, to suppress their excellent, and useful labours, and to set them upon the same level with those that can but read, would be a great discouragement to them, and loss to the Church: it would dishearten and divert young Students in the Universities, be a great damp upon learning, and in all likelihood, destroy the glory of those venerable Fountains of Piety and Literature: Besides which, the People you know are so prejudiced, that it would possess them with rage against their Governors, and contempt of their Ministers, fill the Conventicles, and 'tis to be feared, make our breaches and divisions incurable. So that certainly you are not in earnest in this, or if you are, I suppose there are but very few of your mind. I have heard some talk indeed that they thought it might do well, if only some select men in every Diocese (and those to be seated in the most eminent places) should be allowed to Preach; and the fame enjoined to make every year so many Sermons to be delivered to the Bishop, as in the whole should come to fifty two: besides some for the anniversary days; that a Volume of those Sermons should be printed yearly. That each Minister of those not licenced to Preach their own, should have a Copy, and no more be printed than would suffice for them: That they should read, or recite one of these by heart, every Sunday, till they should arrive to such Age and Ability, as to be thought fit to be entrusted with the instructing the people with their own Sermons. What this would do, and how practicable it is, I shall not pretend to determine: It looks I confess plausibly enough. But I am no proposer of new projects; these matters must be left to our Governors; and I mention this only by the by.  C. 
You are resolved to have your own opinion in all things we have talked on; and you shall for me. But notwithstanding all you have said, I shall not be persuaded to have so good an opinion of Preaching, as you seem to have, till I have reason to think that the Preachers believe their own Doctrines.  A. 
By that you seem to intimate that you think they do not: A very hard thought, that should not be entertained lightly. What any man believes we cannot tell, but by his professions: and the Clergy make zealous and earnest profession of the Christian truths; and therefore 'tis great injustice, and uncharitableness to judge otherwise of them, except upon clear evidence. Charity thinketh no evil, it makes the best and most candid interpretations of things, that are capable of wrong construction: But to judge and surmise evil where there is no appearance of it, this is to exercise a lawless and brutish force upon the names of men, and to rejoice in iniquity, as the Apostle speaks, 1 Cor. 1. 13. No ones reputation can be safe from any aspersion, if men may take this lewd liberty of fastening the worst they can fancy on them; so that except you can make out what you say (which I am sure you cannot) you manifestly incur the guilt of being an accuser of the Brethren. To asperse any private Christian in this manner, is a great sin; how much more is it so to slander an whole order of public persons, that bear a Sacred Character. For you do not only injure them in their persons, but mischief others by it, whom by such reproaches you prejudice against them, and so hinder the good that otherwise they might do by their labours: On which account the reputation of Ministers is and aught to be dear to those that are truly honest and conscientious: and where men love to pickeer, and to find faults with Ministers; 'tis a plain case that they have some corrupt bias that sways them in those Censures.  C. 
For my part I thank God I have none. But by their fruits ye shall know them: Their actions preach contrary to their Sermons, and are too plain indications of the little serious credit they give their own doctrines and instructions.  A. 
I hope you do not think that I would patronise any men's vices or miscarriages: There are too many in all sorts, and where they are in those of the sacred function they are worst; among whom I cannot deny but there are ill practices; they are subject to the follies and passions of other men. But then I must tell you too, that were they Angels in their conversation, they would be blackened and made vile. For pray consider how many enemies they have on all sides, that watch for their haltings, and are ready to triumph in any opportunity to expose them. Many hate them for their Function, more for their Conformity: The Romanists on the one hand, and the Sects on the other; Those that have plundered the Church, and those that desire to do it; those that have devoured, and those that take liquorish notice that they have a morsel left. These generally are glad of any failing in a conforming Minister; they lie at catch for such, and when they have got a story, they blow it about with wondrous diligence: So that where there is a small miscarriage they will aggravate it, till they have made it a great wickedness; and when 'tis an heinous offence; they will impute it to the whole Order. And which is worse, there are many wicked lewd slanderers ready to asperse the clearest innocence; and some that make it their business in their debauches to contrive ignominious Tales of Clergymen, which their Enemies are willing to believe, or at least to propagate, though they do not. Wherefore considering these, and such like unhappy circumstances, 'tis no wonder if the present Clergy suffer much in their names on this score.  C. 
But what then, are all the things we heard of lewd and debauched Clergymen false, do you think? and are there not many such vile Persons in Holy Orders?  A. 
I tell you I acknowledge, and lament that there are so many unworthy persons crept in among the Clergy; and I wish with all my Soul there could be a remedy found for it. But will you consider how most of them get in; you know most of the livings of England are in Lay-Patronage, and you cannot be ignorant what unworthy ways are now frequently taken in the disposal of them: what Bonds, Contracts and Terms are required, which honest, worthy and ingenious men will not comply with, but those of no worth or conscience accept. They bring their Presentations to the Bishops, and are able to give an account of their learning, as far as the Law requires (which I have heard is much less than will render a man able and sufficient according to the expectation of our days) They bring us also a formal Testimonial from those that likely know little of them, and the Bishop knows nothing at all of what they are, less of what they are like to prove: But being so qualified, Institution and Induction cannot be denied by the Law. They get into a cure, and misbehave themselves in it; and then the blame shall lie on the Bishop, and the disgrace spread upon the whole Clergy. And generally I observe that those who so infamously, and dishonestly dispose of the livings in their gift, and by so doing fill the Church with unworthy and incompetent persons, are the same that clamour about the ill lives of the Clergy, most.  C. 
But should not these abuses be rectified?  A. 
I think some good Laws may be wanted to do this: and let me tell you, those that complain might contribute to the reforming of the miscarriages.  C. 
How so?  A. 
By complaining where, and as they ought: As to inform the Bishop when they understand of any Simonaical contracts; to tell the Minister his fault when they know him peccant, and if after that he persist in his vice, to make public complaint to the Diocesan, that his reformation may be attempted by the Censures of the Church; or that upon his contumacious persistence, he may be cast out. If this course was faithfully taken, the evils would be in great part cured. But the misery on't is, many that clamour do not desire that, but are rather glad of an opportunity to asperse, and vilify the Clergy; and therefore they complain for mischief, not for remedy.  C. 
It may be so with some, but I assure you 'tis not so with me. But I think now we have talked enough of this subject.  A. 
I think so too; and 'tis time for me to be going homewards.  D. 
Pray let me say somewhat to you first.  A. 
I wonder you have been silent so long, what is it?  D. 
Is it! It is to tell you that you have been very bitter in your Censures of those godly Ministers, whose Consciences will not give them leave to conform. And after all you have, or can say, I must tell you they are very powerful Preachers, and prevail so much, not for I know not what fancies of yours, but because they Preach Christ, and cry down Sin, which very few of your National Preachers do.  A. 
I did not consider that you were so near, else perhaps I might have dealt more gently with your Friends. In what I have said I have spoke plainly as I thought, and as I doubt not, the matter clearly is, as all understanding unprejudiced men, who have been acquainted with their ways, may see; so that you do me wrong to accuse me of bitterness, as if I had aggravated things beyond the just and due representation of them, which I assure you was all I intended.  
They are Powerful indeed to move the affections that Ignorance and Enthusiasm, Pride, Singularity and Faction have begot: Those they stir by the same ways by which they were produced; they are powerful on the affections of the senseless inconsidering vulgar, which are mightily transported by blustering and noise, as the waters are by a Storm, when as soon as the violence is over, they are still as before: But I do not find that they generally move the intelligent and judicious, otherwise, than to beget in them scorn of their egregious follies, and pity of their fond admirers.  
But they Preach Jesus Christ you say, which others you think do not: and 'tis true they have the name of Christ almost ever in their mouths, and talk as men transported with the beauties and excellencies of the Lord Jesus: This others do not so much, and therefore Preach not Christ, you fancy; by which you show how little you understand what you say, notwithstanding you live under their powerful Preaching. For to Preach Christ is to declare and press his Doctrines, Laws, Example, and Sanctions, which I am sure our Ministers (those of them I hear) constantly and earnestly do: and not to dote upon, and to be always impertinently and fulsomly repeating of his name. I cannot deny indeed but that your men also profess his Doctrines and Laws; but yet 'tis the opinion of some, that many of those Preachers have so darkened these by their phrases, and so corrupted them by their false and fanatical conceits, that their Gospel is quite another thing from the Primitive, Apostolical Christianity; and if so, they Preach not Christ, but their own dreams. But that is too large a subject for us to discourse now. That I may obtain your favour, I will allow they Preach Christ (I wish some do it not out of Strife and Envy) yet certainly they are not the only men that do it, nor is that fit to be a mark of distinction between them, and our Ministers.  
O but they Preach down Sin, you tell us; and that's powerful Preaching, and by that they affect the hearts and consciences of their hearers. And 'tis true those Teachers cry out against sin in the general, with a great deal of earnestness, declaring what a vile and odious thing sin is, with wondrous zeal (I cannot say with so much sense and judgement) but then, they seldom descend to particulars, except in declaiming against the noted sins of others, and such as they take their Governors in Church and State, and those of opposite judgement to them, to be guilty of: So that their common places of invective, are Idolatry, Will-worship, Superstition, Humane Inventions, Formality, Persecution, hatred of the Godly, and such like (things of which themselves are as guilty as any sort of men in the world, though they think not so) But for the sins with which they are generally, and plainly chargeable (those I mentioned before) Malice, Deceit, Disobedience, Pride, Covetousness, Backbiting, Rebellion, Schism, Sacrilege, and other such, we seldom hear them declaim against those. I do not remember that in ten years, in which I was capable of observing in the late times, that I ever heard one Sermon from any of them, upon either of those subjects.  D. 
You may talk what you please, but for my part, I shall hear those men, because I find I profit by them, and I cannot by your Parish Minister.  A. 
That is the continual pretence for leaving our Churches, when people have nothing else to say. Pray therefore let you and I debate this matter a little. You don't profit by our own Minister: You do by those other Teachers. As to the first, let me ask you, whose fault is it that you do not profit? Doth not our Minister Preach the great Truths, and Duties of the Christian Religion? Don't you observe that he picks out the most suitable, useful and awakening Subjects? Doth he not represent the Doctrines with plainness and distinctness? Doth he not press the duties with earnestness and affection, doth he not lay down the great motives and encouragements, and give us the true practicable directions to guide us in the performance? (You have heard him often) what say you, can you deny any of this?  D. 
I have no great fault I confess to find with the man's Preaching, but yet methinks I am not so much affected with it, nor can I profit by it.  A. 
It seems you do not profit, but you cannot tell why; therefore give me leave to tell you the reason. First, you have no kindness for the Minister's person, because he conforms, and it may be, is not in all things of the same opinion with the men you admire.  D. 
Now you mind me of it, I must tell you he is not Orthodox, nor sound in his judgement, and that I confess doth beget in me some dislike of him.  A. 
Orthodox is a word by which your men mean one of their own opinions; and of these they are very fond, and in doting on uncertain points that appertain not to the foundation, they show themselves very superstitious, and lay ground for eternal Schism, and even for Scepticism, and Atheism itself. For when disputed things are adhered to as certain and necessary, Christian Charity will be destroyed, and all things at last disputed.  
But pray what do you make the measure of Orthodoxy? Are not the belief of and adherence to the Scriptures, the first Fathers and Councils, the old Creeds, and the Articles of the Church of England (which in the Doctrines your men pretend to allow) are not these enough to entitle a man Orthodox? and all these our Minister teacheth, and professeth.  D. 
But doth he not hold some opinions that are contrary to those grounds of belief?  A. 
I do not think he doth, and I dare say he thinks he doth not. In extraessential matters the Pious and the Learned of all sorts have ever been of different judgements, and are like so to continue to the world's end. I have in my time, conversed with men of all persuasions, and yet scarce ever met any two (though of the same general way and Communion, that were in all things of the same mind: And therefore if our Minister judgeth otherwise than you or I, or this or that Divine, in some out-points of Theology, it is but as every thinking man else doth: and we that hear him constantly know, that he generally Preacheth the great acknowledged Truths, and never troubles his hearers with private opinions: But zealously and frequently reproves those that disturb the world with their particular fancies, and declares continually against meddling in the Pulpit with unnecessary controversies and notions; so that if it were so, that he had private opinions, you and I need not be concerned about them.  D. 
Well! but I have heard him Preach Doctrines I did not like.  A. 
That may be: But I hope you do not take your liking or disliking to be the standard of Doctrines fit to be Preached or not.  D. 
Nay, I mean Doctrines that were Erroneous, which was one reason I left his Ministry.  A. 
Erroneous! as you thought: you would have your judgement to be the measure of truth and falsehood. Do you not think you are in some things mistaken?  D. 
I know I am fallible.  A. 
And do actually err in many things?  C. 
It may be so.  A. 
And yet you stick to all your opinions with that stiffness as if you were infallible: and condemn every one for erroneous that in the least differs from you. This let me tell you, is great pride and immodesty, and renders people very unteachable, when they will not receive or bear any thing but what is just according to their own fancy, and preconceived opinion; nor be taught to understand any thing better than they do already, as if their knowledge was perfect, and their minds had no need of information; when as most commonly such presumptuous persons are very ignorant, and the knowledge they pretend, is but a confused heap of vain imaginations, which they picked up by chance, and have no truth or coherence in them.  D. 
Every man must judge by the best understanding he hath, and so did I, when I judged your Minister to Preach Erroneous Doctrine.  A. 
And that you say was one reason of your withdrawing from him?  D. 
Yes.  A. 
But did you ever go to him to discourse the matter with him? Perhaps you mistook his meaning; or it may be he might have made it appear that he was in the right, and you in the wrong.  D. 
I did not trouble myself to do that.  A. 
And yet you withdrew from his Ministry upon it?  D. 
I did.  A. 
Then let me tell you, you did a very rash, uncharitable, unchristian action. We are not, you know, to separate from the conversation of any private person till we have told him his fault between us and him, though the fault be plain and apparent: much less may we divide from the Church and our Ministers, till we have made the matter of offence known; much less may we do it when the fault is not evident, and certain. It is no small matter to change the Guide that God's providence, and our Governors have set over us, and to take others contrary to the Laws under which we live; 'tis a thing that before a man doth it he should consider well, for here is at least the appearance of danger. 'Tis something to break Laws and disturb Governors, and trouble Ministers, and offend private Christians; 'tis something, I say, which a tender Conscience would not do, without great consideration, and without being fully resolved in the necessity of it: and how then durst you do it, upon a mislike of your Minister's Doctrine, when you never did yourself or him that right, as to speak with him about it? and to inquire what satisfaction he could give you in it. This let me tell you plainly, is an error greater than any you can pretend in his Doctrines, it is a sin that hath a complication of many others, Pride and Stomach, Self-will, Contempt of your betters, and causeless Disobedience to your Governors. You have now chosen ways and teachers upon your own head, and if you happen to be mistaken in your choice (as I much fear you are) this confident proceeding and bold relying on your own understanding, will render your sin and folly inexcusable.  D. 
I perceive you grow angry. Fare you well.  A. 
Nay, pray stay a little, I am not so much angry as grieved at your ways: and have a question more to ask you on occasion of what you have told me; and that is, Whether you are to leave every Minister and Church, as soon as any thing is said that is really erroneous, in the lesser and unessential matters?  D. 
Should we not love the truth and fly from errors? I think we ought to settle where the greatest purity is both in Doctrine and Worship.  A. 
And upon these terms we shall never settle any where at all. For no Church pretends itself to be infallible, but the Roman: and there are no particular men or body of men, but have their actual errors and mistakes. So that according to this way of proceeding you must have departed from the Preaching and Communion of the holiest Men, and best Churches of the most ancient, yea and of all times. In many things we err, as well as offend all.  
I have thus spoken to you freely in this matter, I hope you will consider it. But I have a little more to say of your not profiting under our Minister: I am yet speaking to the first cause, your prejudice against his person, which in a manner you confess: Where this is, the Doctrine will not be heeded, be it what it will; and I have plainly observed this effect in you, when I have seen you at Church sometimes at Funeral Sermons, or other occasions.  D. 
What have you observed?  A. 
I have taken notice, that though the Minister hath been speaking of the greatest matters, in the most pathetical and moving way, yet you have looked coldly, insensibly, and unconcernedly upon it: whereas I remember when the men you now follow, preached in public, you used to listen with a very visible and affectionate attention to all, even the poor, mean, impertinent, and sometimes senseless things, they delivered; and to be very diligent in penning those Sermons; when as these you manifestly slight by your carriage, even when they are full of the weightiest, and most useful truths? And is not this to have the Faith of Christ with respect of persons? And to come under St. Judes' Character of the Separatists of his time, who had men's persons in admiration? This is not to honour Ministers for their works sake, but to undervalue and slight their work for theirs; whereas a Christian should joyfully hear Christ's Truths and Laws, and affectionately embrace them for their own sake, and his.  D. 
This I do for all your observations, and so I hope you have done with me.  A. 
No, I have more causes yet to show of your not profiting under our Minister: you told me he delivered Doctrines sometimes that you did not like: He presseth the duties of Peaceableness, Modesty of judgement, Candour, Subjection to Governors, Charity, etc. And reproves the contrary vices, and these are very proper, and seasonable subjects for the needs of the Age: But such Doctrines you do not like, your party is wont to call the most modest ●nd necessary representation of ●hese matters, railing, and reflecting on the godly. So that ●hose duties, and their contrary ●ins must not be touched lest you wound the good People. No; Preach up the comfortable Doctrines of Gods seeing no sin in ●is chosen, Salvation by Faith without Works, and the Righteousness of Christ covering our Sins, (in the Antinomian sense) Liberty of Conscience, the Privileges of the Saints, the marks of Regeneration that comprehend the Party, and exclude all else: the abominations of the Wicked, that are for the Common-Prayer, and Bishops. O these are edifying, Soul-refreshing Doctrines, these you like, because they flatter you in your ways: Those tha● Preach thus, shall have you● Company, your Ears, you● Hearts, and your Purses; whe● as such as Preach the sound searching Doctrine, you canno● endure: you vilify their persons, and are prejudiced against their Preaching, and be it neve● so powerful and profitable, yo● can learn nothing from it, because you will not. Here's the bottom of your fancied profiting b● your own Preachers, and not b● ours. But if a man should as● you in what principles of Religion you are better instructed what duties you are excited to and directed in, that you coul● not learn from our Ministers I believe you would be able t● ●ive but a slender account of ●our profiting in those things, in ●hich the true proficiency of a Christian doth consist. But your profiting is your being gratified, pleased, and encouraged in the way of opposition, and separation you are in.  D. 
I cannot endure to hear ●our wicked and profane discourse, and therefore once more, fare you well.  A. 
I know every thing is profane in your account that doth not favour your Fantastical and Schismatical ways. If you are angry at my honest freedom I must bear it as well as I can, and so, Your Servant.  E. 
He'll do your errand to the Brotherhood, and publish you for a very carnal wicked man.  A. 
That's their usual way of answering when they are roundly opposed, and of reforming when they are seriously reproved. I value the favour of any wise and good man, but for theirs I heed it not.  E. 
He speaks bitterly against our Ministers, when he is in company where he can talk at liberty. His common accusation of them is that they Preach for hire.  A. 
It is fit that he that Preacheth the Gospel should live by it. And the Justice and Piety of our Ancestors have made some provision for them in most places, settled by our most Fundamental Laws; and what they have out of any man's Estate on that account, is as much theirs, as the remaining part is his. Here is the mistake of men that talk thus, They reckon that all they possess is their own, in which account they are much out: all is their own when their debts are paid; when they have paid to God the things that are Gods, and to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; what the Laws have ordained to be paid out of their Estates to others, is their property, and no man can be called an hireling for taking what is his own: Nor can Ministers be any more justly called so for receiving the maintenance the ancient Laws and Government have allowed them, than Kings for taking Taxes, and other payments from their Subjects.  E. 
Ministers have much to do with such people: and many that in words pretend they love the Church are as troublesome as those. Such as neglect the public worship, and never come to it, but when they have nothing else to do; now and then you shall see them drop into the Church by chance, but in their very coming in they show how little concerned they are, and their whole carriage after declares their carelessness, and indifferency to those things. So that if the Minister particularly court and caress them without taking notice of their indevotion, and other sins, he may chance to have their good word a little while: but if he do not so, they be ready on all occasions, and without any, to carp at him; if he omits any of the least circumstances of his duty (or they fancy so) he shall be sure to hear of their railing, and backbiting of him; when as the most constant, laborious, and worthy diligence in the work of his Ministry, and the most laudable performance of all offices public and private, shall not gain him any jot of interest or favour with them, nor as much as their good word. The ground of which is because the things he administers to them are not at all valued, and have no hold upon their affections.  A. 
Perhaps they may like to hear him Preach a little, while he is new among them: but when he hath resided any time, he grows stale, and cannot affect them with his Preaching, though constant exercise hath never so much improved him in that faculty.  E. 
And 'tis another discouragement to learned and able Ministers that after all their teaching, people have so little sense and understanding of Divine matters, as to be most of all taken with the weakest, and most trifling of those men, that now and then happen to supply their room. I have heard some of them say that they are extremely glad when their Auditors happen to be pleased with any true and substantial Preacher; but to hear of their admiring and applauding those that they, and other judicious men, were ashamed to hear; this shows their little proficiency, and cannot but be matter of trouble to their Ministers.  A. 
And no doubt it is so; not out of envy to those poor retailers of small wares; but of pity to their follies, and the People's want of understanding and judgement; it would trouble any man to see that he hath so far lost his labour, in all his diligent endeavours to instruct them; to find that they generally feel not any thing of substantial, practical, awakening truth, but will sit stupid, and dead under such; when they are pleased, and transported with weak, affected, superficial stuff, that hath no sense, understanding, or life in it. But it grows late we may have some other opportunity to discourse these matters.  E. 
Pray before we part let me have a word or two more with you. You have been asserting and commending Plain Preaching, and you seem to make Plainness the general Character of all good Sermons, But will not this disoblige the Ministers from taking pains about them? would it not expose their Preaching to the disrespect, if not contempt of the People? Will they not think they can Preach themselves, if it be so plain a business? And will not the Ministerial office be hereby rendered liable to be usurped by every one that judgeth he has abilities for plain instruction?  A. 
I perceive you have not taken sufficient notice of what has been said in describing plain Preaching; I do not mean by it, what is slight and vulgar, what is unthought, unconsidered; but what is unstrained, unaffected; what is manly, and solid; and so to speak requires learning and study, and improved faculties. This should be the end of a wise man's pains to conceive things clearly, and to express them plainly. It asks much less of parts and abilities to talk mystically in phrases, and hard words, and terms of art (which many admire, because they do not understand) than it doth to speak properly, and intelligibly; which, though it may seem very easy to be done, yet indeed it requires most labour, and 'tis mastery to have gained this ability. A man doth not show his wit or learning, by rolling in metaphors, and scattering his sentences of Greek and Latin, by abounding in high expressions, and talking in the clouds, but he is then learned, when his learning has cleared his understanding, and furnished it with full and distinct apprehensions of things; when it enables him to make hard things plain; and conceptions, that were confused, distinct, and orderly; and he shows his learning by speaking good, strong, and plain sense. So that you see there is no fear of making Learning unnecessary to good Preaching; there is no fear of excusing Ministers from taking pains; there is no fear of exposing the office by the plainness I have commended: and for your objection that this will lay it open to intrusions, besides the answer contained in what I have said already, I say further, that the Ministers▪ function is, blessed be God, secured from such invasions by the discipline, order, and government of the Church according to the primitive Apostolical pattern, and rules, and not by the Clergies having the only abilities to instruct; I doubt not but there are many pious and knowing Laymen, whose parts and knowledge would enable them for public teaching: but they have no Authority so to do; and therefore 'twould be a great sin, and folly for them to attempt it. Every man may not do every thing that he can; there is a politic as well as natural capacity; the Laws of Government are to be considered, and observed, and according to them, the abilities of men ought to be employed, or restrained.  E. 
You have satisfied me as to that matter, but your plain Preachers do not take so much pains as exact Preaching would require; for I understand that some of them Preach Extempore.  A. 
I know indeed some that Preach without writing; but their Preaching is not therefore Extempore; Extempore is unthought, not unwritten: and these do not vent unconsidered, unpremeditated instructions. No, those I plead for prepare themselves by previous studies of the Sciences, and Divinity; after which with much anxiety and thoughtfulness, they settle clear, and coherent conceptions in their minds, of the Christian doctrines, encouragements, and rules of life; they have exercised themselves long in laborious▪ Preaching and it may be thence have gained the ability of ready, and easi● expression; they frame th● scheme of every particular Se●mon, and lodge it distinctly i● their minds; yea they lay th● train of the whole enlargement and settle the consequence o● each thing to another, unde● every head; though they giv● themselves not the trouble o● writing and forming all into se● words. And if any will condem● this for Extempore Preaching think they are very unjust i● their Censure.  E. 
If it be so, I shall not mak● one of those Censurers; nor a● present give you further Diversion from your occasions.  A. 
Therefore, Good Night.  
FINIS.