THE POLICY OF THE CLERGY of FRANCE, TO Destroy the Protestants OF THAT KINGDOM. Wherein is set down the Ways and Means that have been made use of for these twenty Years last passed, to root out the Protestant Religion.  
In a Dialogue between two Papists.  
Humbly offered to the Consideration of all sincere Protestants; but principally of his Most Sacred Majesty and the Parliament at Oxford.  
London, Printed for R. Bentley, and M. Magnes, in Russel-street Covent-Garden, near the Piazza. MDCLXXXI.   

THE POLICY OF THE CLERGY of FRANCE.  

The First Conference.  The Parisian. 
THIS, Sir, is a happy Rencounter for me; who thought you were at Paris: Methinks you very much neglect your ancient Friends. I ought not to have been the last to whom you ought to have made known your arrival, since there is no body more disposed to do you Service than my self. What brings you hither? Does it lie in my Power to serve you?  The Provincial. 
I am infinitely obliged to you, Sir, for all your Civilities and Offers. But I have not at present any Affair of Importance; the design of diverting myself, of seeing my Friends, of learning what passes in the World, and of losing some of the rust of the Province, has brought me to Paris. And I am overjoyed that my good Fortune has made me meet with the man I honour the most, and whom I have ever had in my memory; but out of whose thoughts I feared I had been a long time banished.  Par. 
I knew you as soon as I saw you, and have eyed you this quarter of an hour, to be sure my sight had not deceived me. I likewise observed you was in earnest Discourse in that Booksellers Shop, with a Gentleman I had never seen before. Who is he? He seems to be well bred, and appears like a Person of Quality.  Prov. 
It is an old Huguenot Gentleman, and a great Friend of mine. We have made several Campaignes' together, and having found much Virtue and Sincerity in him, I never repent the great engagements I have had with him.  Par. 
Have you much Commerce with People of that Religion?  Prov. 
Some: The most part of my Neighbours are of it; and there are few of them that I know, but who are honest People.  Par. 
For my part I have no deal with them: Not but that I inform myself very particularly of their Affairs, and hear them often spoken of; but I have no acquaintance amongst them. And besides, by what I have heard say, I believe that such a Commerce is dangerous.  Prov. 
I am not of your Opinion: I pretend to be as good a Catholic as another; but I never found in those People any thing that ought to oblige me to avoid them. They are of a very grateful and easy Communication; they do not act the part of Converters in the World: We hardly ever discourse of Religion together; and when it is mentioned, it is always after a very modest manner. We talk pretty often of their Affairs, but without heat and passion. As to the rest I have always found them good Frenchmen, brave, sincere, faithful in their Commerce, true Friends; and you know this is all that is demanded for Conversation and Civil Life. For the rest, I do not penetrate into their insides, to know if they do their Duty towards God.  Par. 
I am very glad to hear you talk thus; for I am not unwilling to have a good Opinion of all the World. But if you have Friends in that Party, counsel them to retire betimes; it falls, and those who do not quickly abandon it, run the risk of being oppressed under its Ruins. It is a Religion very much decried, which every where runs into decay, but especially in this Kingdom. Some memory that had been preserved of the Services they had done the Crown, had hitherto upheld them: At present this is absolutely worn out. The Disgusts they meet with at every step, discourages the most zealous. They quit a Party that is an invincible Obstacle to their Fortune: And as things go, morally speaking, they are not to last ten Years longer: They will be brought back without doubt into the Bosom of the Church, from whence the boldness of their pretended Reformers has drawn them. This is a thing that is made no longer a mystery of. You see how P. Maimbourg speaks of it in his Epistle to the King, at the head of the History of Lutheranism. I hope, says he, to write suddenly the Rise and Destruction of Calvinism at the same time; and is mightily tickled with these hopes.  Prov. 
I am overjoyed you are fallen upon the Point. It makes a great noise in the Provinces, and I have spoke of it often to persons who have not entirely satisfied me. You are here at the Source of Affairs, and I must beg you would be so kind as to instruct me therein. But we must choose a more Convenient place than the Pavement of St. James' Street, which is not much better than the Sea Shore, where P. B— makes Aristus and Eugenius to have so long Conferences, notwithstanding the heat of the Sun. You know the Author has been rallied for it; and though we were not acquainted with this Story, the season and hour would oblige us to seek a shade and shelter.  Par. 
Let us go to my House, which is but three steps from hence; and be so kind as to take part there of a mean Dinner, after which we will spend the Afternoon as you shall think fit.  Prov. 
I accept the offer without more ado; by which procedure, I fancy, you will perceive me to be still the same man, without Ceremony, you know I formerly was.  They enter the Parisian's House, they Dine there, and after Dinner they go into a Parlour, where the Conversation is thus renewed. Prov. 
Since you have assured me you have no business to day, and that we shall see no body: I demand of you this Afternoon, for the instructing me with the manner that is pretended for the reducing the Hugonot-Party to the Catholic Religion. This Affair holds all France in suspense. The Catholics are in great impatience to see the Success of the hopes that are given them therein. The Hugonots on their part say not all they think; I see them very much alarmed. They cheer up themselves: We hope, say they, that God will not abandon the Party of truth. They recall into their memories what they style their Deliverances. But with all this, I do not believe them very safe.  Par. 
They have certainly no great reason to think themselves so, for great Designs are on foot against them.  Prov. 
But the King, is he of the Party?  Par. 
Do not doubt it. The King is a good Catholic, and wishes the Reduction of the Hugonots to the Church, with as much zeal as any of his Subjects. But besides that, he is more than any man possessed with that noble passion which is called the love and desire of Glory. It is represented to him, That after having made all Europe tremble, conquered so fair Provinces, taken so many Cities, made so many Sieges, and won so many Battles, nothing can be more worthy of him, and more capable of rendering the memory of his Reign Glorious, than the reuniting the Religions in France. He has harkened to it, and will forget nothing for the accomplishment of this Design. The King does not naturally love to vex his people, and if he was left to act according to his inclinations, things would not be carried on so violently; but he is pushed on, and is not left at quiet.  Prov. 
It is not however believed that violent means shall be employed; that is to say, Sword, Fire and Banishment.  Par. 
If some Bigots were listened to, nothing should be spared. But the general vein of the Kingdom does not go so: The King does not love violence: Besides, how weak soever a Party may be, when it is pushed to extremity, it is capable of giving a desperate blow: It was not observed that this Conduct succeeded in the last age. And in fine, the King, whose principle aim is to make himself formidable to his Neighbours, does not design to depopulate his Countries: And doubtless they would be considerably depopulated. if the Hugonots were destroyed by the Sword, or chased away by Banishment.  Prov. 
It is well known, that the King's Prospects are very opposite to those; for he has made several Ordonnances to hinder his Subjects from leaving the Kingdom. It is likely that the Hugonots have a very great share in them; they are not allowed to go seek re●ose elsewhere: They must stay and be exposed to the ills that are designed them; and that they may at length change, being wearied with so many Fatigues, or invited by such hopes.  Par. 
It is so, it is not to be dissembled. See here then the manner by which it is pretended to compass the great Design of reuniting them to the Church. It has been observed by experience, that there are two things that give root to Heresy in a State. The first is, the great Liberty that the Heretics have of preaching their Doctrines. The Second is, the Conveniency of Life, when they are suffered to live in a profound Peace, and enjoy Charges, Employs, and all the other Dignities and Privileges which the other Subjects enjoy.  Prov. 
It is certain, when a man is born of a Religion, and that he finds therein all the Repose, Riches, Pleasure and Honour that he could wish, he has no great mind to change it, how little zealous soever he may be.  Par. 
That's true, and therefore during fifty Years there was not so many Conversions seen, as within these five Years. The Edicts given in favour of the Hugonots by Henry the 4th. and confirmed by his Successor Lewis the 13th. granted them great Liberties. In the Cities, where they were most numerous, they possessed one part of the Magistratures; they had Chambers of the Edict in the Parliaments, and likewise divided Chambers in the Provinces, where they were most numerous. They avoqued all their Causes to these Chambers, that the zealous Catholic might not do them injustice. They exercised all manner of honourable and gainful Professions, with the same liberty as the Catholics. They were Counsellors and Attorneys at Law, Physicians gathered in a Body of the Faculty. They were received into Arts, they carried on Trade; they likewise entered into the King's affairs as well as others. In War no distinction was made between them and the Catholics: Nothing was considered, but Merrit and Fidelity, and Service, and Courage. They were received into all the Military Dignities, and had Pensions. They were Colonels, Brigadeer, Major-Generals, Lieutenant-Generals, and even Marshals of France, commanding Armies in Chief. On the other part, as for what concerned the exercise of their Religion, they very freely enjoyed what had been granted them: They had places appointed from the time of the Edict, for their Sermons: Every Gentleman, having High Justices, was as a little Sovereign in his House: He might assemble by the sound of the Bell, all the Religionaries thereabouts; he made a Parish in his House, and no body disturbed him. The Bishops were used to suffer those people in their Dioceses: They had even engagements with the Principals of this Party. The Huguenot Lord made no scruple of visiting my Lord the Prelate; and the Prelate, on the other part, looked with a good Eye upon the Huguenot Gentleman. Thus they lived in a very great Peace. But it was visibly perceived that the Heresy took deep root by the favour of that repose, as ill Herbs are increased by the gentleness of the Spring.  Prov. 
The State the Kingdom had been in for a long time, had without doubt contributed to the tranquillity the Hugonots enjoyed. A War of thirty Years with Spain, a long Minority, Civil Broils, and Foreign Affairs, had hindered the thoughts of them.  Par. 
That is certain: For, after all, our Kings, who bear with justice the name of most Christian and Elder Sons of the Church, have never lost the design of destroying Heretics. But their Prudence has obliged them to suspend the use of the means they designed to make use of for that end.  Prov. 
As for Henry the 4th. I do not think this can be said of him. He had treated with them with sincerity. He was of opinion he had received great services from them; he had been a long time of their Religion: He only quitted it, that he might quite dissipate the League which covered itself with the Cloak of Catholicity. And we very well know, that this remnant of Inclination that he had preserved for them, cost him his Life. After his Death, during the minority of Lewis the 13th. and the Ministry of the Marquis d' Ancre, the Affairs of Court and State were in such disorder, that there were few thoughts of extirpating the Hugonots. It is true, that Cardinal Richlieu took from them their Cities of Surety; but it was rather out of a Politic prudence, than any zeal of Religion. He saw that it was a State in a State, and that those Cities were retreats for Rebels and the Discontented; but in the bottom he sought not their ruin. His engagements were too small with the Court of Rome, and was too able a Politician to ruin a Party, of whose Fidelity he might always be assured. It may likewise be said, with more assurance, that Cardinal Mazarin never thought of extirpating Heresy. The Good man, though an Italian, and a Neighbour of the Church, had no great zeal for it, Riches were his only Divinity. It is very well expressed in one of his Epitaphs, Si Coelum rapitur, habet. He never sought any other way to go to Heaven th●n that of Rapine. Especially he never thought of this way to Heaven, which is called the Conversion of Heretics. Besides, his Ministry was attended with so many Traverses, and he was so hard put to it to defend himself against so many Enemies, that it cannot be imagined he had ever any other Prospects than such as tended to the establishment of his Family, and the Preservation of his Fortune. Thus I believe it may be said, that the Design of ruining the Party of the pretended Reform in France, has been laid since the Year 1660.  Par. 
I grant that the Project was not well form till after the Peace of the Pyrenees; and see after what manner it was resolved they should proceed in it. Those people, said they then, must be deprived of the Liberty they have of preaching their Religion. By these means they will be no longer instructed, and will become ignorant of their own Tenets. Their Temples must be raised, and the liberty of their Exercise taken from them. Their Ministers must be persecuted, some of them banished, others imprisoned, others deprived of their Goods by great Fines. Every thing they do must be imputed as a Crime. Nothing is more easy than the surprising them. They cannot preach their Religion without preaching against the Catholic Religion; and there is not an Expression, but what might produce a Process. By this means the people will be terrified, Fathers and Mother disgusted, and will not easily put their Children to the studying Divinity for the making them Ministers. Besides this, they must likewise be disturbed in all kinds, and be deprived of their Charges; and expelled from all Employs both of Peace and of War, and removed from Court, and banished from the King's House, and likewise from the Armies both by Sea and by Land. Their Children must be taken from them, and be instructed in the Catholic Religion. They must be daunted by threaten, and tempted by hopes, terrified by sufferings, and invited by benefits; when they have once changed Religion, they shall be forbidden upon great punishments to return to the Religion they have quitted. Their liberties must be diminished by little and little, and when it is reduced to a small thing, and that their number is very much lessened, on a sudden all their Edicts shall be revoked.  Prov. 
This seems to be very well concerted. The first thing that this Design produced, was the Declaration that the King made shortly after the Peace of the Pyrenees, by which he ordered Commissioners to take Cognisance of the Infractions of the Edict of Nantes.  Par. 
That is true: The Hugonots fell then into the Snare that was laid for them. They imagined that this Declaration was advantageous to them, and fancied, that by the means of these Commissioners, they should have satisfaction for all the Contravensions that had been made for the Edicts and Declarations which were favourable to them; and such Contraventions from that time were in no small number.  Prov. 
I can assure you, that there were but few who were thus trappanned. They were before very well acquainted, that a great deal of mischief was designed them, and the most penetrating judged that there was something more couched under it than they could think of.  Par. 
It was a thing the best imagined that possibly could be: For by Virtue of this Declaration, they were obliged to represent before these Commissioners, all the Titles by which they enjoyed their Temples, and the liberty of exercise of Religion in each place. And by these means, more than the half of their Temples were Condemned, and above the third part of them were raised: And after the manner they proceed in this Case, it is impossible any should subsist; at least there will so few remain, as not to make a number.  Prov. 
How so?  Par. 
First, You know that a long Peace makes People negligent; no sureties are taken, when no danger is seen. The Hugonots lived under the Faith of the Edicts and the Declarations for above sixty Years. They imagined they had no need of Titles, because they had been so long in possession: Insomuch that they took but little care to preserve the Titles of their establishment. After the Edict of Nantes, Commissioners were nominated by the King, for the Executing this Edict. They went to the Places where there was any difficulty. They gave Acts of establishment for some places to Preach in, but not for all. For where there was no difficulty nor Process to be tried, they gave no judgement. In the places where the Commissioners had given Acts of establishment, because they were not necessary, having found the establishment wholly made, they laid hold of the advantage, and condemned them because they could not show a Title they never had, and which was thought they had no occasion for. In the places where the Commissioners had given acts of establishment, if those acts were not shown; though they gave very evident marks of them, and that they had other pieces to which those referred, no regard was had of them. In such places where the first Titles were found, they found nullities in them; and you know it is not difficult to bring this to pass where there are none. The most part of their Temples are founded upon a certain Right that they call Possession, founded upon one of the Articles of the Edict of Nantes, which says. That in all the Places where the exercise of the R. P. R. shall have been in the Years 1596, and 1597, it shall be made there, and continued. Proofs were demanded of them, that Sermons were Preached in such a place in the Years mentioned by the Edict.  Prov. 
I stop you there. Had they need of Proofs and Titles, for a benefit they had been in Possession of above sixty Years? Was not there Prescription for them? It is so general a Right, that it may be called the Law of Nations. There is even Prescription for Crimes. Thirty Years makes Prescription every where, and the Hugonots had been in possession above twice thirty Years.  Par. 
They laughed at all this. Such Temples were raised as were more ancient than the Edict. To return to what I said they were demanded proofs of their Possession, and it was impossible for them to produce them. First, the proof by Inquest is impossible, because there are no people living of that time. The proofs by writing are, either Registers of Marriage, or of Baptism, or Consistorial Papers, or Acts of their Synods. As for Registers of Baptisms and of Marriages, they will not receive them; they say that they Mary and Baptise every where, and that this cannot be a proof that they have had in a certain place, a Temple and a Public Exercise. As for Acts of Consistories, and of Synods, it is difficult for them to produce any; because that that time was Calamitous in the highest degree, by reason of the War of the League. They had not the liberty of assembling, nor of making acts of the Resolutions they took: However they did not fail to produce a considerable number of them. But all this did nothing, no regard was had to them; nay, there is even no regard to the Resolutions of the Counsel and the Parliament made for the establishment of their Temples. And to tell you it in a word, the Catholic Commissioner has secret orders, not to find any Title good, and to condemn all. It is true, that there is one of the R. P. R. joined in Commission with him, without whom nothing ought to be judged. But it is only for form sake; this Catholic Commissioner does all. He alone instructs the Processes, and oftentimes judges them alone. If Hugonos complains of a Contravention to the Edicts, he is not heard. If a Catholic will complain of a pretended Contravention, he obtains all that he demands against them. In the Judgements of their Temples, the Huguenot Commissioner is either corrupted, or frighted; they deceive him, and promise him to confirm one Temple, if he will consent to the demolishing of another. And in fine, if nothing can be obtained of him, the Catholic Commissioner condemns, the Decision is made, and this Decision is sent to the Counsel, where they ordinarily pronounce upon the judgement of the Catholic Commissioner, without further examination. Only for the keeping some appearance of justice, sometimes of thirty Decisions they will let the Hugonots gain one, that they may say to them, you see that Justice is done, when it is found that you have reason on your side.  Prov. 
I likewise oftentimes hear the Country Gentlemen complain of the troubles they are put to for the Sermons they caused to be preached in their Houses.  Par. 
Neither have they been spared upon that Article. Henry the 4th. believing he had received great Services from the Nobility of this Party, granted to all the Lords of High Justice the power of causing Sermons to be preached in the places of their abode, to receive there all people, and even to assemble them by the ringing a Bell: This occasioned them a great number of Sermons. Not that at Court great stress is laid upon these establishments, because they perish with the Gentleman's Family, who maintains them, or cease when he turns Catholic. Now Gentlemen ruin themselves by the expense they are at; and oftentimes to recover themselves by some Employ, which gives them the means of Subsisting, they change Religion, and are converted. Thus the Family decaying, or becoming Catholic, the Hugonots are chased away. However it has been endeavoured by several Decrees, to ruin these sorts of establishments. It has first been declared, that High Justices newly erected, were not granted to have this Privilege, when they fell into the Hands of Huguenot Lords. They have enlarged this even to the time of the Edict, declaring they will not allow that public exercise to be made in all the Lands erected in High Justice since the Edict. But interpret the Article of the Edict of the Lands which were at that time in Right of High Justice: They even proceeded much farther, for it is pretended that the Lords have no Right of causing Sermons to be preached in their Houses, at least if they do not show that the Lands which they possess in High Justice, were at the time of the Edict in the hands of Lords of the R. P. R. and in possession of causing Sermons to be held there. It is true 〈◊〉 is last Article has not been yet 〈◊〉 every where with the 〈◊〉 rigour; but it is an Affair that i● easily returned to. In the mean time these Huguenot Lords are forbidden to have any sign of public exercise in that part of the House where preaching is performed. They have caused the Bell and Seats to be taken away: And this is done, for fear that in time it might take the form of a place of possession. They are likewise forbidden to have preaching out of their House, and the Precincts of their Court. And for the more safety, a decree was made by which it was forbidden to the Ministers Preaching in the High Justices and in the Houses of Piefarons to come to their Synods, and to enter themselves in the Tables of these Synods. It is true, that they have obtained respite to the execution of this arrest; as also to the execution of another Order, which commanded their Ministers to reside in the Places where they preached, which had obliged the Ministers who preach at Charinton to stay there, and quit Paris.  Prov. 
These respites that the King has granted, make appear that this Prince is good natured, and that he would give them much more repose, if he was not continually solicited by the Clergy.  Par. 
I do not at all doubt it: But happily we have near his Majesty such persons as never leave him at rest upon that point. It is the whole business of the Counsel of Conscience. The Clergy has Informers, who only employ their thoughts for the inventing new Edicts as the Financiers have, who think of nothing but the means of augmenting the King's Revenues.  Prov. 
Will you make an end of informing me what is done to destroy their Temples?  Par. 
I should be too long if I would say all. For within these twenty years so many orders have been issued to that end, that a great Volume is composed of them, and there is not one but what tends to their ruin: I assure you that nothing is neglected and that our people are watching on all sides to destroy them.  Prov. 
I hear them often complain of the deceitfulness of their Antagonists.  Par. 
The ●●●th is, they cry up the Maxim against them; Dolus, an virtus quis in 〈◊〉 requirat? I see that by those who solicit me, and who put affairs into my hands against them. False pieces are produced which oftentimes pass for good. I'll give you an Example which will make you laugh. The Clergy of Niort, a City of Poitou, solicited the destruction of a Temple that the Hugonots have there. Their Deput● presented an Order of Parliament, da●●d the Year, 1601, or 1602. which ordered that the Temple of that City should be raised; because it had been only suffered in the City by Toleration, for the safety of the Hugonots; who could not do their Exercise in the Field, because of the Leaguers. This Order having been communicated to the Advocate of the Party, he discovered that there was upon the Banks of the Loire between Orleans and Blois, a great enclosed Burrow, or little City, called Mer, in which were many Hugonots. This Order had been made against them. The Clergy of Niort had met with this piece by chance: They had in the word Mer, parted the last stroke of the m, and made it an i, they had made the e an o, insomuch that after these changes it was read Nior. But the misfortune was, that in this Order there was mention made of the Leaguers of Orleans, who made incursions, and came to pillage. There was likewise mention made of a certain Lord of Mer, and several other things of that Nature, which had no more reference to Niort than to Rome. Thust he piece was convicted of forgery.  Prov. 
This is a strange Cheat; the Curate who had falsified this piece, and had produced it, was not he punished?  Par. 
And what punishment should have been inflicted on him? All the ill he came to by it, was, that he lost his Process.  Prov. 
Since we have seen the Principal things that are employed to ruin the Temples of the P. Reformed, be pleased to inform me of the other means that are, or will be made use of, to oblige them to quit their Religion.  Par. 
You know that Fears and Hopes are the two great Machines' that set minds a going. It was believed, that in doing them a great deal of hurt while they remained Hugonots, and a great deal of good after their Conversion, would draw in a great Number.  Prov. 
This is an infallible means. How many people are there, who are of a Religion by chance, rather than by choice; who are not at all fixed in the Religion of their Fathers? who continue of it because they were born so, and that they find therein their Conveniency? Having neither Piety nor Devotion, they little care of what Religion they are. How many Catholics do you believe we have, who are not of God's Religion but of the Kings, and who would incontinently change if they were in a State where they could not have Employs but upon that Condition?  Par. 
I know there are but too many. Wherefore these people are deprived of their Charges, and all hopes of coming to them. Their Nobility has consumed themselves as well as ours by their great Expenses. Being become poor, they continue however vain and ambitious. You know that the most part of the Grandees have no other Divinity than their Grandeur, and that they would Sacrifice all things for the maintaining it. These people have appeared at Court, the King has graciously received them, they have been caressed, they have had part in all the pleasures, and have had none in the Employs; that is to say, they have been permitted to ruin themselves still more in the great Scene of the Court, and by great expenses: By this means they have took a relish to the World. It is there that the zeal of Religion usually diminishes: For there is no surer Remedy to Cure Bigotry than to come to Court. In the mean time they were perpetually told, you are of a Religion that is no longer of the mode; as long as you continue of it, nothing will be done for you; turn Catholic, and you are sure to have Pensions, and Governments, and Regiments, and Brevets of Duke and Peer, and Staffs of Marshals of France.  Prov. 
I easily conceive that young ambitious minds, libertins and the ungodly, cannot resist such temptations, and thus they have been deprived of all their persons of Note.  Par. 
They have been a long time put to trouble about Civil Charges and Magistrature. When they had purchased any such Employ, they were stopped at the Seal, they were consumed in Solicitations, and were oftentimes after this sent back, if they were not recommended by some Catholic Lord, who made their business his own. But in sine, this was tiresome, and of a sudden they were rendered incapable of all Charges of Magistrature: Their divided Consulats were taken from them in Languedock, insomuch that a small Mayor of a Village is not suffered of that Religion.  Prov. 
'Tis true, I saw the other day a man from Cevennes, who told me hat in their Mountains they are all Hugonots, and that there be great Burrough Towns, where there is not a Catholic besides the Curate. Insomuch that it is not known how the King's Edict shall be executed in those places, for they will be obliged to cause Persons to come 24 leagues from thence to exercise the Consulats.  Par. 
There were a great many people who had part in the King's Affairs and Finances, which raised Families amongst them. They had had Intendants of the Finances, who maintained by their Commissions a multitude of mean people. The King has newly taken from them this means of subsistence, and they have been forbidden to have any part in the Affairs of the Finances, either directly or indirectly. Which is the most terrible blow for them that can be imagined. For in sine, it may be said that it was the only way that was left them, to raise themselves, to make a Fortune, and to acquire Riches.  Prov. 
This puts me in mind of what I heard an old Minister say the other day, in a Huguenot House where I was. The King, said he, does us more good than he believes, in depriving us of Charges, and removing us from the Finances. The first entertained to our Vanity, and ruined our Families: and the Second brought us base Riches, which caused great mischief our Party. So soon as a Citizen by his Traffic and Management, or by the means of his Parents had gained four or five hundred pounds a Year, he would needs be distinguished. To that end he bought a Charge, and to maintain the Dignity of it, he spent beyond his Revenue. The best Managers laid nothing up: Their Riches, which in a heap was something considerable, was no longer so, being shared amongst several Children. Thus the Son of the very first Generation ruined a Family his Father had raised. Whereas had they lived privately, they would have augmented their Stocks, and left their Children at their ease. As for employs in the Finances, the ill they have done us, is not to be expressed. They are certain means of enriching ourselves by stealing from the King, or sucking the blood of the people; both of them odious Crimes, and which draw the Curse of God. These people acquired money with great ease, wherefore it cost them nothing. They fell into all manner of expenses Luxury, and Vanities. The rich Branches of their Family, who were raised higher by Birth, and by Rank, would not suffer themselves to be surpassed by these upstart Families. Wherefore they exceeded in their expenses, and ruined themselves out of emulation. When we are poorer, perhaps we shall be more sober and modest, since we cannot be so by indignation. It is a great honour that is done us, not to suffer us to be Publicans and Levyers of Taxes. This was what that Minister said.  Par. 
This is fine for a Sermon, but few people would be of this Minister's Opinion. In the bottom they will see how many persons this deprives them of. There are already great ones of the Huguenot Party, who are turning Catholics, they will be followed by several others, and these great Heads will draw a Multitude of ordinary people, who labour and live under them.  Prov. 
My Minister foresaw this; and added that it would immediately happen, but that it would not continue  Par. 
The truth is, that its a blow once given, whose effects will not last long for Conversions: Neither is it what is looked upon as most considerable. It is a great point, that having taken from them the Chambers of the Edict, and the divided Chambers. These bodies having been expressly established for them and in their favour, rendered them considerable, without reckoning that they had Precedents, and the half of the Counsellors in the divided Chambers: This made appear they were still held in consideration. At present they are abandoned to injustice and violence. When they have a Catholic Antagonist they are sure to lose their Process; and when both Parties are Hugonots, that which gives hopes of changing Religion is certain to gain his Cause.  Prov. 
I was in Languedock when the divided Chamber of Castelnaudary was surpressed, and that the Huguenot Counsellors were ordered to go to Tholouse to be parted in the Chambers. These poor people were in a consternation that cannot be described. They said the King sent them to Slaughter. They related to me several Tragical Events which had hap●●…d either by the fury of the people 〈◊〉 injustice of the Parliament of 〈◊〉 against them. Amongst 〈◊〉 things they told me that two 〈◊〉 Counsellors, going one day 〈◊〉 their Chamber, were hanged up 〈…〉 Court without any form 〈◊〉.  Par. 
The truth is that City is much changed since the time of the Albigenses; it is passed into another extremity: For it must be confessed that the zeal for the Catholic Religion is there accompanied with too much violence. To return to the Subject of our Conversation, What has been done to become Masters of the Hugonots Children is extremely well concerted. First it has been ordered that Maids at the age of Twelve Years, and Boys at Fourteen, shall have the liberty of making choice of their Religion. You know that it is at that age that the Yoke appears heavy to Children; because it is the age in which they must make choice of a Profession, they are obliged to work, and it is required of them to begin to leave off the liberties of Childhood. They have not yet any love for Religion, and oftentimes they have but very little knowledge of it. The Yoke of obedience, and that of punishments being hard to them, they seek only the means to shake them off. To help them in the Execution of this Design, there is established in the Cities where the Hugonots are most numerous, Houses of the Mission, and Propagation of the Faith, into which the Rebellious Children retreat under pretext of turning Catholics. When they are in these Houses, their Parents are not permitted to see them, and they are lightly instructed; some days after they make abjuration of Heresy, and they are made to sign the act: After this they have some liberty given them, because they are hindered by the Declaration against Relapses, from returning into their former Religion. They are often times returned to their Fathers and Mothers, who are obliged to answer for them. And if the Children escape, and go away out of a Libertine humour, their Fathers and Mothers are accused of having sent them out of the Kingdom; and upon this pretext a Process is form against them, and they are ruined.  Prov. 
I have likewise heard something of Schools, now you are talking of Children.  Par. 
There is an Order issued out, by which it is forbidden them to have more than one Master of a School, in every place where they have exercise. It is to oblige them to send their Children to Catholic Schools, because there are places where it is absolutely impossible that six School. Master's can teach all the Children. And those who shall go to Catholic Schools, endeavours are used to instruct them privately, and make them turn.  Prov. 
For my part I avow to you, that I find that Article which regards Children very severe: I can hardly comprehend how liberty can be given to a Maid to make choice of a Religion at an age we would not give her leave to choose a Petticoat. But besides, I hear them very often complain that they proceed farther than the King's Declaration permits. They say that their Children are took from them before the age appointed by the Edicts; and when they demand the reason of it, they are laughed at. The Intendants who are Judges of these and other Infractions, put them off for whole Years, till that the Children may have attained the age of 12 or 14 years, and then they cause them to make their Declarations. When the Mother is a Catholic, the Widow of a pretended Reformed, according to the last Declarations the Children ought to be instructed in the Religion of the Father. But the Mother makes sure of them, causes them to be instructed in her Religion, and no satisfaction can be had for it. They likewise say that their Children are often taken up in the Streets, are shut up in Cloisters, and they never hear more of them.  Par. 
All these complaints are not without ground. But what injury does this do them? Their Children are saved, and endeavours are used to save them themselves.  Prov. 
I am told that a Decree has been lately made, which concerns the holding of their Synods.  Par. 
It is that henceforwards Catholic Commissioners shall be given them on the King's part. It is a step towards the depriving them of all liberty of holding their Synods. By which means will be known their strength and weakness; it will be known what Ministers are capable of being gained. Divisions will be sown amongst them, some will be won by promises, others daunted by Fear: In fine, their very Entrails will be known; and it will be a great means for the destroying them. Besides the Decrees that are made for the ruining them, others are obtained for the rendering of them infamous. They are forbidden to set up Flower de Luce's, either within, or without their Temples, as if they were unworthy of bearing those marks of honour; and as if they were not good Frenchmen. All their principal Seats are ordered to be taken down in their Temples, and all the [Balisters and Rails raised. The Bishops have obtained a Decree, by which it is ordered, that during their visit in the places where there is exercise of that Religion, it shall be interrupted out of respect to the Catholic Religion, as if those people were Turks and Mahometans. This seems but a small thing; but however it helps forward, and strikes deep into the minds of the people, augments the aversion they have against the Hugonots, and disposes them to quit a Religion, for which they see there is so much Aversion and Contempt.  Prov. 
The Decree that has been lately made to forbid their Midwives, and all others of their Religion to lay Women, is a thing that terribly vexes them. It is not to be described the terror this has cast in most places into the minds of most part of their Women with Child. For there are a great many Cities, where there is not one Catholic Midwife, who has any skill in that Art; and there are some where there are none at all. I have it from good hands, that in places, where this Order has been openly published, the terror of it has cast several Women in Labour before their Times, and occasioned their Death.  Par. 
This Arrest is an essential point; wherefore all the former difficulties must be passed over to put it in execution. When their Women are recovered from their first frights, it will be as convenient for them to be laid by Catholics, as by Women of their own Religion.  Prov. 
But what will they do in those places where there are no Catholic Midwives?  Par. 
Send for them from other places. Did you never know that Jewish Midwives have been sent from Avignon to several Cities in Languedock? It is till that Catholic ones can be sent thither. They will not at first be so very expert, and will cost some Women their Lives; but for a greater good, some ill is to be permitted. For in fine, by these means they will be used by little and little to lose the Liberty of Conscience they are to be deprived of. It is one of their Articles of Faith, that the Baptism of Faith is not good. They must at present suffer this Article of Faith to be forced from them. But there is another mystery couched thereunder which is not yet time to reveal, and which will be manifested in its time. Shall I tell you my Opinion? We have not yet touched the most important Declarations that have been rendered against them; it is the Declaration against Relapses, and the Decree which was lately made, forbidding any Catholic, upon pain of Banishment, loss of Honour, and confiscation of goods, to turn and be of the pretended Reformed Religion.  Prov. 
I have seen these Declarations, and make the same judgement as you do of them.  Par. 
It may be said that thus two thirds of the affair is done. The Liberty of Conscience that had been granted them, consisted only in these three points. The first of being permitted to live in the pretended reformed Religion, when born of it. The second, having leave to change and be of it; though not born of it. The third, the being free to turn to it again; though they had once abandoned it. The last is extinguished by the Declaration against Relapses. The Second, by this last Declaration, which forbids a Catholic to turn Huguenot. There remains only the first point, which ought not to last long according to all appearances. Thus all the other Decrees that have been made against them does only retrench the Branches; but these cut up the very roots. Which may make them comprehend that their ruin is directly and speedily aimed at.  Prov. 
And I assure you they perfectly comprehend it; and those I have seen, seem to me extremely alarmed. But I know not if you are acquainted that there are several Catholics who are much discontented, and say, We will be Catholics out of Conscience, and not out of constraint. What! the Inquisition is brought upon us, we are deprived of that Liberty of Conscience, that is the most precious thing in the World: If we were so unhappy as to be mistaken, and fall into Heresy; the King, would he save our Souls with detaining us by force in the Catholic Church? We should be damned notwithstanding the King; as well in quality of concealed Heretics, as in quality of Hypocrites. Besides, the King will thereby lose all those of his Subjects, who would change Religion. It will not be difficult for a Catholic, who will turn Huguenot, to dispose of his Goods before he declares, and afterwards to into a Foreign Country.  Par. 
Besides, these extraordinary means, which are made use of to Convert them, there are a great number of others which make less noise, that are Employed however with great success: As much mischief is done them as can be; they are deprived of all means of gaining their livelihood: They are not allowed to be of Arts and Trades; though the Declarations and Edicts expressly bear they shall be received into them. Injustice is done them; they are driven from most part of the Bars; they are not allowed to be of a Body of Physicians, they are offered Money, and sums are put into the Hands of the principal Judges and Governors to be distributed to the Converted: Those have it by advance, who promise to turn. When by all these means they have been induced to change Religion, the Declaration against Relapses fixes them in such a manner, that they dare not return to their first Religion, though their Consciences often solicit them to it.  Prov. 
I hear them particularly complain of the ills their Ministers suffer: They say that people are sent to hear their Sermons; that these ignorant and faithless people, impute to them things they never said, and even make Crimes of the most innocent expressions: Whereupon their Ministers are troubled, are put into Prison, are condemned to some shameful satisfaction, and to unsay it in open Sessions; some to be drawn upon Sledges with the Executioner, others to be banished, others to suffer Confiscation, and the loss of all their Goods. It is but some few years since that the Prisons in the Province of Poictou, were all full of their Ministers, and their Ancients, because they had preached upon the ruins of the Temples that had been destroyed.  Par. 
Do you find this strange? Is it not the Ministers who keep them in their error? In fleecing these people, and driving them away, by the troubles they are put to, their flocks will be no longer instructed in their Religion, and will be easily reduced to the Catholic Religion.  Prov. 
But to the purpose. Have not you heard talk of what has been done against the Ministers in the Province of Xaintonge, by the Lieutenant General of Xaintes?  Par. 
Yes, the business has come to our Ears: You see that all the world is let lose upon them. All is permitted, provided it tends to do them mischief. Neither does the Court any longer make a Mystery of the hatred it has, and is desirous the people should have for them. You may have observed in the Declaration which forbids Catholics to turn Hugonots, that the King is made to say, that the liberty of Conscience which had been granted to the pretended Reformed, had augmented the hatred that the Catholics had against their persons and their Religion.  Prov. 
I avow to you that that part suprized me. In all the other Declarations it was always said that the design of the Edicts was to establish peace between the Subjects of one and the other Religion; and the Kings have ever commanded an union and good intelligence between them. But it is at present clear that these people are abandoned to the hatred and fury of the Catholic people. The King is too good and too wise to have caused this Clause to be inserted, he was certainly surprised; but let us return to the affair of Xaintonge.  Par. 
Thus than it was. The Civil Lieutenant of Xaintes caused a request to be presented him by the King's Solicitor of that place, demanding that the Ministers might be held to the observation of the eleventh Article of Charles the Ninth's Declaration, of the 17th of January, 1561. Thus run the terms of the Article; The Ministers shall be obliged to appear before our Officers of Places, and take Oath of the observation of these Presents, and promise not to preach any Doctrine which is contrary to the pure Word of God, as it is contained in the Symbol of the Council of Nice, and in the Canonique Books of the Old and New Testaments, that our Subjects may not be filled with new Heresies. According to this Article, the Lieutenant-General of Xaintes has ordered that the Ministers of his Province should be obliged to make Oath before him; and upon refusal he has forbidden them all Function of their Ministry to the very visiting the Sick. To which several have imprudently submitted: for it was very easy for them to have gone on and not have obeyed, because it belongs only to the King and his Intendants of Justice to silence Ministers.  Prov. 
But why do the Huguenot Ministers make a difficulty of taking the Oath?  Par. 
Because that under pretext of the Oath, that they should have taken, of preaching nothing contrary to the Word of God, they might have been hindered from preaching against the Catholic Religion: You know very well that the points which separate Us from the Hugonots are in the Word of God, and all our Doctors prove them by Scripture, as well as by the Fathers, and by Reason. Besides, by this means a Declaration was revived that is not favourable to them, which was extinguished above an Age ago, and which was likewise never executed. In reviving one Article of it all the others were revived: and likewise by renewing this Declaration, they would have a right of recalling also all the others which were much more favourable to them. They still add, that it doth not belong to a little particular Judge to aggravate their Yoke; that they live under the Privilege of the King's Edicts, and that the King is their only Master in things that concern Religion. But I must acquaint you with what has been imagined against them in Britain, which is well worth that of ●aintonge. A Curate bethought himself to give out a 〈…〉 pain of Excommunication for the ●●●…ging his Parishioners to reveal all 〈◊〉 who had spoken irreverently of the Catholic Religion. There was a prodigious number of Witnesses, either false or true found; who deposed against the Hugonots of those parts: Insomuch that they were all obliged to fly to avoid Imprisonment. I believe the place is called Quiatin; it is a Lordship which belongs to the Family of the Moussays.  Prov. 
This Affair of Britain, as well as that of Xaintonge brings into my mind another of Dauphine, which has this in Common with those, as to make appear that generally all that is done against those people comes from the same principle that we have already enough remarked; that nothing is spared, even to believe that it is a work grateful to God, to impute to them false Crimes for the casting them into certain ruin: But perhaps you know the Story as well as I; it is what passed some years since in the pursuit of the Recollects of Nions, have you not heard of it?  Par. 
Being one day by chance at the late Chancellor N's House, I heard them talk of a Bell, that the Religious would have taken from the Hugonots of that place, and I also remember that they made so much noise with their Bell, that the Counsel was stun'd: But I know nothing more of it.  Prov. 
What I am going to relate to you, has made much more noise than the Bell of Nions. It came into those good Father's Heads that the Minister of Vinsobres, a small neighbouring Village of their Convent, kept secret Correspondence with the English: They so well represented this idle imagination to the King's Attorney General of that Province, that he immediately declared himself his Accuser. The whole Parliament of Grenoble sell into this Snare; one of the most able Counsellors of their Body, was deputed Commissioner to inform incessantly upon the Places, The Grand Provost took the Field with him, followed by all the Company of Sergeants, the Sieur B— (thus is the Ministers Name) choosing rather to be a Bird of the Forest than the Cage, frighted at their March, fled as soon as he had notice of it. His Evasion fortified the suspicions that were given them of him. They fan●●●●l the Syndio of the Consistory might likewise be of the Party, and that the Minister had done nothing without his Participation. He was the Cock of the Parish, and a man likewise very well to pass, who at all adventures could pay the Fiddlers. His person was seized without other form of Process. He was conducted with Irons upon his Hands and Legs into the Conciergery of the Palace. The people cried every where against him all along the way. He was to have been sh●●…ed alive at least and they s●●…ck'd 〈◊〉 all parts to Grenoble to see the Execution; but in fine, Parturiunt Montes exit 〈◊〉 Mus.  Par. 
How! Did it all go into smoke?  Prov. 
Even so: After they had examined the business, there was found nothing in it, and those that had been concerned were the Public laughter. The truth is, that the Parliament, in some manner to save their honour, detained this Syndie two whole years in Prison; but that time being expired, he was released, without being condemned or absolved. The Door was opened to him one day when he least expected it. And all the Fruit that was gathered from this 〈◊〉 Process was that this good man turned Catholic during his detention.  Par. 
This is pushing the zeal of Religion very far, and becoming strangely ridiculous. What likelihood is there, that in Dauphine, which is the farthest Province of France from England, they should undertake to keep Intelligence with England, while that in Guyenne and in Normandy, which are its Neighbours, they had no thoughts of it? Neither can I conceive how that a Minister of a Village can be bold enough to undertake, and able enough to carry on an Affair of that importance. But were not these Recollects punished for their false Accusation?  Prov. 
They had no great thanks for having occasioned this Sally; but what is to be done with people of the Frocks? Their Excuse was their good intentions, and they were freed with a small Reprimand▪ that the Chief Precedent de la Berchere made them, who is certainly a Magistrate of the greatest Integrity, and one of the best Servants the King has in France.  Par. 
And what became of the Minister, was not he Condemned out of Contumacy?  Prov, 
Very far from that, he was suffered to take away his Goods, an account of which had been taken, and would have returned to his Village, if that Tempest had not driven him into a good Port in Swizzerland. He possesses a Post incomparably better than that of Vinsobres; and these Reverend Fathers have procured him Riches and Repose, without thinking on it. Within these two years another Minister of the same Province has done as much. The Religious of St. Anthony of Vienois persecuted him, he retired into Holland, where he was very well received.  Par. 
Is it not the Minister of— who was seen rolling a long time at St. Germains and Verseilles, after the Courts Taile? I have heard it confusedly said, that he was accused of Treason, and detained several Months in Prison; but that he purged himself, and yet was silenced by a decree of the Parliament of Greneble. I know nothing of the particulars of his business, if you are informed of them, I pray you tell me what they are.  Prov. 
You have divined him, it is the same; his adventure has something very singular. The Hugonots of Dauthine had kept a Fast in all their Churches; and the Synod that had ordered it, had enjoined all the Ministers that belonged to it, assisted with their Ancients▪ to visit Families, and put them in mind of what had been promised God on the Fast day. These are the terms of the Article, which was Printed and Divulged. This Minister did not fail to execute this Order in his District. It was during the heat of the War with Holland: The Religious of St. Anthony, who had lain in wait for him a long time, laid hold on this occasion, to insinuate themselves with the Court, to his Cost. They writ to M. le Tellier then Secretary of State, that something was contriving against the King's Service; that the Hugonots had celebrated a Fast through all Dauphinate; that there was a Plot Couched under this Fast, and that Devotion was only the pretext of it: That the Minister of— had held secret Assemblies at the Houses of the Principals of his Parish; that he had prayed God for the success of the Hollanders Arms, and that he had gathered great sums of Money from those of of his Party to send to the Prince of Orange.  Par. 
Good! Can this come into rational Heads? though all the Hugonots of the Kingdom should have contributed to this gathering, it would not have been sufficient to have furnished Oats to the cavalry of the Army the Prince of Orange Commanded: They can hardly maintain the six or seven hundred Ministers they have, since the Seal and Subvension Moneys were taken from them, that were destined to that use, without any thinking of gatherings for foreign Countries.  Prov. 
I knew very well you would also cry out upon this. Yet as strange and as unlikely as the thing is, it caused this Minister a great deal of trouble: There came Orders from the King to seize his Person. He was kept in Prison for above four Months, false Witnesses were raised to maintain the Accusation, and if he had not had the Address to Convince them in the Confrontation, he would certainly have passed his time very ill.  Par. 
This is horrible! It is rather fury than zeal. But it is with our Religious as with Angels, when they are Corrupted, they are Devils. There is no manner of ill, but what they are capable of. Those of St. Anthony surpass in this all the other Orders. They have appropriated to themselves vast Riches of St. Lazarus, under pretext of Serving the sick. Monsieur de Louvois, who is chief of this Order, designs to make them restore these Goods, and to apply them to the Hall of Mars, destined to the maintenance of the maimed, without doubt these Reverend Fathers to fence off this 〈◊〉, with which they were threatened and to insinuate themselves into the King's favour, bethought themselves of giving this advice to the Court, and sacrificing this Minister to their Interest.  Prov. 
You have hit the mark, and methinks so many Monks ought not to be suffered. The Policy of France observes there are too many. It would be convenient to retrench at least the two thirds of them, and to apply the Revenues of their Houses, which are immense, to the necessities of the State, and to the ease of the people. And the other Thirds Wings ought likewise to be clipped, and hindered from growing great, by forbidding them, as is done at Venice, to acquire stocks and receive considerable Gifts and Legacies. It is the same with their Fraternities as with the Den of Esop's Lion, all goes in and nothing comes out, and it is not otherwise possible, but that at length they must become yet more powerful and formidable.  Par. 
I am impatient to know the issue of this Process, I beg you would tell it me.  Prov. 
The false Witnesses were freed for a Years absence from the Province, and the Religious for some Reprimands from the Judges. As for the Minister, he was fined without any Note of Infamy, and condemned to pay the Charges, by reason of the visits he had made, which they called Assemblies, and the silencing of his Ministry too, happy to have thus escaped from the Snare that was laid him. I saw the Sentence in Print, and fixed up by Order of the Bench. You see by all these Stories that all manner of ways are tried for the tiring out those people; their ruin comes on apace; consider how many Declarations there be against them, within these two Years.  Par. 
Two things are the cause of this. The first is the Peace; while the King has less foreign Affairs he employs himself in the reforming the disorders that may be in the State, and in the Religion. Moreover the disputes the King has had with the Pope, has obliged him to appear severe against the Hugonots.  Prov. 
What Mozeray has observed in the Life of Henry the 2d, is very true, that the disputes of the Kings of France with the Popes, have ever cost the Hugonots dear. As soon as a Prince thinks of defending himself against the erterprises of the Court of Rome, he is accused of being an Abettor of Heresy; and Princes to clear themselves of this suspicion redouble their severity against the Heretics.  Par. 
You see that the Pope, in the Briefs he has written to the King, praises him for his zeal against Heresy, and gives him joy for having destroyed so many Temples; and the King on his part, to appease the Pope, has not failed to make him observe, that in few Weeks he has made three very strong Declarations against the Hugonots.  Prov. 
Since we are fallen upon this, tell me in short, what were the disputes the King had with the Pope?  Par. 
There were two, The first was upon the account of the Regality; and the second upon the account of the Urbanists. The Regality is a Right our Kings have over vacant Bishoprics, upon the Decease, or the Demission of those who possessed them. During the vacancy, the Fruits of them belong to the King; and even till that the new Bishop has taken the Oath of Fidelity in Person, all the Benefices which would be at the Bishop's Nomination, are at the Kings. The most part of the Bishoprics in France have submitted to this Right. However there are some who pretend not to be in the Regality; and, amongst others, those of Guyenne and Languedock. Of which kind is the Bishopric of Pamiers near the Pyrences. The King pretended he had the Right of Regality over that Bishopric; the Bishop pretended not His Temporals were seized on, of which he complained to the Pope, who proceeded so far in this affair, as to threaten the King to make use of the Arms of the Church against him. The Urbanists are the Maidens of S. Clair, whose Rule was mitigated by Pope Urban the 5th. and therefore have retained the Name of Urbanists. These Maidens had kept the Right of Electing Superiors, and Regular Abbesses, according to the Canons: The King on the contrary pretended he had the Right of Nomination to these Abbeys, as well as to all the other Great Benefices. The Bishop of Pamiers maintained the Rights of these Maidens, and obliged the Pope to maintain it.  Prov. 
This Bishop of Pamiers seems to me a terrible man.  Par. 
He is dead; but I assure you he was an honest man: He was for the Observation of the ancient Canons; and if he might have been believed, he would have reestablished the vigour of the ancient Discipline. Not that his own Genius of itself was proper to maintain a great affair: But he was an Admirer of M. d' Alet, who was one of the Chief men of the Age for Purity of manners, and Observation of Discipline. The Bishop of Pamiers did nothing but by his Orders, and followed all his Maxims; he has ever followed them, even since the Death of M. d' Alet. They were both most zealous Jansenists. You know the great troubles they have had about signing the Formulary, which they so long resisted: They were both great Enemies of the Jesuits, and of varying from Morality. Wherefore Father le Cheise, a Jesuit, who governed the King's Conscience, was not sorry to find an occasion to revenge his party, and he persuaded the King as much as was possible to vex this good Bishop, who was likewise a declared Enemy of the Court Bishops: which brought upon his back the Archbishop of Paris. For perhaps you know that this Archbishop is the Original, of whom a little Book entitled, the Court Bishop, is the Copy. Some fancied it was the Bishop of Amiens, whom the Author principally aimed at, but this is a mistake; it was the Archbishop of Roven, who had been Bishop of Seer, and who is at present Archbishop of Paris. The Author of this little Book that has made so much noise in the World, and that has so much enraged my Lords the Bishops, is one called le Noir, and has been Archdeacon of the Church of Seer.  Prov. 
But do you not look upon it as a very singular thing, that at present the Court of Rome favours the Jansenists against the Jesuits?  Par. 
It is what never would have been foreseen: for the interests of the Court of Rome, and those of the Jesuits have been so interwoven, that they were believed inseparable. The Jesuits make a fourth Vow to the Pope: they carry his Authority as far as it it can go: they place him both above Councils, and above all Kings, as well in Temporals as in Spirituals; and therein pass to such excesses as the other Catholics do not approve. The Court at Rome for its part has regards for them that it has not for any other Order. But it appears that the present Pope is favourable to the Doctrine of S. Augustin upon Grace. He is especially a great Enemy of those varyings from Morality, of which the Jesuits are the principal Authors. He has caused a Bull to be published which Condemns 65 Propositions of this lose Morality.  Prov. 
Good God But I am scandalised, that this Bull was not received in France; and that it was forbidden by an Act of Parliament. I know very well the pretext; which is, That the Bull issued from the Tribunal of the Inquisition, which is not acknowledged in France. But, in fine, an expedient might have been found not to have scandalised a whole Nation. Who would not imagine that the detestable Propositions are approved of, which are condemned by this Bull, since that the Publication of the Bull is forbidden?  Par. 
Certainly the Credit of Father le Cheise, and the Jesuit Party, has appeared therein. And this goes much farther than you think of; for in the first minute of the Declaration, these words were put, Though that these propositions are justly condemned; Father le Cheise has caused these words to be raised out, and has put in their stead, That even the good things which come to us from the Tribunal of the Inquisition ought not to be received.  Prov. 
But what do you think of the present Pope?  Par. 
For my part I believe he is the honestest of all the Churchmen. The Holy See has not for a long time been possessed by a Person of so great Probity: He is perfectly of an Apostolic Character.  Prov. 
I have seen Hugonots who had an esteem for him, and who believed him capable of endeavouring a good Reformation, if he was aided and followed; but he has every where found a surprising opposition. The Bull he has published against some Indulgences was so ill received in France, that all good Souls have been scandalised. The King is made to say upon the Subject of this Bull, that the Pope had newly done more hurt to the Church than the Hugonots could do it in fifty Years.  Par. 
There is however one thing in this good Pope, that I cannot approve of, which is, that he will not bate any thing of those high and superb pretensions of the Court of Rome, touching the infallibility of the Holy See, and the superiority of the Pope over the Temporals of Kings. You perhaps know that he has caused to be put into the expurgatory Index, by the Congregation of the Inquisition, the lives of Father Maimbourg, and amongst others the History of the fall of the Empire, because there were found therein some Propositions that were not conformable enough to the Italian Theology, and which rendered Princes too Independent on the Pope in Temporals. Methinks that a Pope of his Character ought to have humility, and by consequence ought not to entertain the haughty sentiments of his Predecessors, who brought down Crowned Heads under their feet.  Prov. 
What you tell me I was ignorant of. This is very singular, a Jesuit cry out against the Pope. Ah! without doubt it is to revenge the Society of the Jesuits, and punish the Pope for favouring their Enemies. These Gentlemen know how to say, God save the King, and the same of the League, according to Junctures.  Par. 
The hatred certainly of Father Maimbourg against the Jansenists, might well oblige him to write after a contrary manner to the Pope's interests; for this Father is one of the greatest Enemies of Port-Royal. But besides that the Glory of the King, and the great Success of his Arms, engages that Society into this Conduct; one would say that Father Maimbourg delights and is proud to see his Books in the Index, and that he had composed his History of Lutheranism on purpose to enlarge the Catalogue of forbidden Books at Rome; for he loses not any occasion of censuring the Pope's Conduct; and has likewise found the means of doing one to the purpose, in his History of Luther, for to Condemn the sentiments and actions of the present Pope, upon the dispute he had with the King about the Regality. In the bottom the Jesuits have not abandoned their Theology: They are as zealous Partisans of the Holy See, as they have ever been, but they dissemble and tolerate Father Maimbourg, because he flatters a Prince whom they are afraid to offend. The King is very jealous of his Authority and his grandeur; he is glad to find people who maintain the right of Kings against the pretensions of the Court of Rome. He flatters the Jesuits very much, he lets Father le Cheise reign, who is of that Order; it is just they have some Complaisance for him. But in the bottom they disavow Father Maimbourg, and in another reign he would not have escaped for an easy Discipline. Father le Cheise is likewise as much out with the Court of Rome, as one can be; wherefore it is his interest to manage the King's mind, without whose protection he cannot stand; and it is he who upholds Father Maimbourg. In the mean time the Protectors of the Liberties of the Gallicane Church pretend, that this Father does a great deal of honour to his Society, and that he makes appear that the Italian Theology, touching the Pope's Authority, does not pass amongst the Jesuits for an Article of Faith, as was hitherto believed; but for the reasons I have told you, I do not think that a great advantage can be drawn from it. The General of the Jesuits has very nearly explained himself therein. The Pope having made great complaints to him of Father le Cheise, and of Father Maimbourg; he answered, he could do nothing against two persons who were under the Protection of so great a King; that is to say, That if the Times, or the Government changed, the Pope should have satisfaction for the Erterprises of those two Jesuits.  Prov. 
I am surprised that the Pope, of the Character I fancy him, is so jealous of that false Authority that his Predecessors have usurped over the Church, and over Kings; and I am the more astonished at it, for that the Book of the Bishop of Condom had persuaded me, that the Controversies concerning the Pope's Authority were no longer considered at Rome as Affairs of importance. You know that in that work, he passes very lightly over the Pope's Authority, and says only general things, which all Catholics agree to. I have always that little Book about me, let us see what it is. As to things which are known to be disputed of in the Schools, though Ministers do not cease to allege them for the rendering that Power odious, it is not necessary to speak of them, since they are not of the Catholic Faith. It is sufficient to acknowledge a Head established by God for the guiding his flock in his ways. This signifies clearly enough, that all that is said to excess concerning the Pope's Authority by the Monks and Italians, aught to be reckoned as nothing. And you see how all the Court of Rome approves this Book; and there is even a Brief of the Pope, which commends both its Method and Doctrine.  Par. 
What you say is like an honest Countryman, and one real. How came you to fall into this Snare? Can you believe that the Court of Rome would renounce those pretended Rights which have cost it so much trouble, and even blood to acquire! believe me, the pleasure of reigning is too sweet to renounce it. This Empire that the Pope exercises over the Kings of Christendom raises him too high to abandon it. The truth is, that some Princes, in imitation of the Kings of France, endeavour to cast off the Yokes. The Emperors are no longer Crowned by the Pope; the Vatican Thunderbolts are no longer so formidable. The Kings of Portugal have not abandoned their Crown, though the Popes would take it from them. But be it as it will; though the Court of Rome should have lost the Body of that Power, it would keep the Shadow to the last.  Prov. 
So that this pretended yielding of the Court of Rome, upon the point of its Authority, is a snare laid for the P. Reformed.  Par. 
You may judge by the delicacy of that Court, in regard of the Writings of Father Maimbourg: For in fine, this Father has written after a very respectful manner for the Holy See; yet it is imputed to him as a Crime, that he has not uttered matters as the other Writers of his Society.  Prov. 
Since we are upon the Book of M. de Condom; I must ask your Opinion of it. You promised to acquaint me with all the means by which they pretend to reduce the Hugonots suddenly to the Bosom of the Church, and you tell me nothing of those mild ways so much talked of, and which are looked upon as sure means to Convert all those of that Party, who are neither obstinate nor prejudiced.  Par. 
Nothing can be more witty, better turned, and more delicate than the Book of M. de Condom: But I said nothing of it to you, because I do not believe it useful for the guiding to what it tends. In the bottom that method is worth nothing, and in the sequel will do more hurt to the Catholic Church, than it does it good at present.  Prov. 
I see, however, that several persons who read that Work speak of it as a Masterpiece; and I have seen several Hugonots whom that Book has Converted.  Par. 
Believe me, dear Sir, that those people would have been Converted without the Book of M. de Condom. This Book only Converts those who were willing to abandon their Religion, and who seek for pretext to defend themselves against the Accusation of lightness. The late M. de Turene was the first who took a great deal of pains to raise the value of that Action. He turned Catholic after having grown grey in the Huguenot Party. He feared to be accused of having quitted his Religion out of Interest. As he was extreme nice upon the point of honour, and that Glory was his Idol, he was desirous to persuade all the Earth that he turned out of a principle of Conscience. From a Convert he even became a Convertor; and because that he could not be persuaded that several things that are taught and practised amongst us were good, he was glad to meet with Abbe Bossuit, who turned things as he would have them, and who disguised what he could not look upon without a disguise. Whereupon the world became Charmed with this piece, and it was reported that it made several Converts. Several Hugonots got themselves instructed according to that Method, they were glad they could say that their Ministers were notorious Libelers, having represented to them the Doctrine of the Church of Rome, wholly different from what it is. The fame of this Book passed into Italy: The Court of Rome was persuaded all France would become Catholics, and fall into this snare. But the truth is, that Book is only good to cause Relapses. For if the Hugonots were really Converted upon the assurances that this Book gave them, that we do not serve Images, and invoke Saints, but as we pray the Faithful upon the Earth, to beseech God in our behalf; what would they say, when they came into our Churches, and that they saw there the Images Served, and the Saints invoqued by all the external acts of a Religious adoration? They would certainly cry out upon us, for having deceived them, and would return to the sink of Heresy. It would be better to act Faithfully, tell things as they are, and make known to Heretics the naked truth. But I avow to you this is not the greatest mischief this Book may do.  Prov. 
What is that so terrible mischief which you foresee, and which makes you so afraid?  Par. 
That mischief is, that such Books are capable of multiplying a Party that is in the bosom of the Catholic Church, and which will one day be its ruin, if care be not taken. You must know then, that the Church had never so many ill Catholics as it has at present. The Town, Country, Court, and Armies are full of Deists, a sort of people who believe that all Religions are the inventions of humane Wit. These rash Heads doubt of all; they are armed with wicked difficulties, against the Books of the Old and New Testament, that they may not be obliged to believe that those Books were really written by the Authors whose Names they bear. From hence it proceeds, that such as pretend to any Capacity in writing, have bethought themselves of defending the Christian Religion against the incredulous; all their works turn that way; and thus if a Bedunt makes a Collection of Scraps and Criticism upon the Books of the Old and New Testament, or upon some particular Texts, he calls that Evangelical Demonstration: Reflections upon the Truth of the Christian Religion. And the most part of these Collections, are fit to confirm these Deists in their incredulity, than to make them return; because such Compilations are not regulated by Judgement: What's good is mixed with what's ill, and force with weakness; and those incredulous minds are the more confirmed in this incredulity, by the ill reasons and weak Conjectures that are given them for solid Remarks, and are not touched with the good Reasons that are mingled with the ill. Besides, such kind of Works, wherein are related a hundred several Opinions upon one and the same Subject; do but furnish a new pretext to their incredulity: They conclude that all is uncertain; that the most enlightened knew not what to hold to, and whose Opinions were quite contrary. The truth is, that some of these Writings that are made for the defence of the Christian Religion, are of a Bulk to fright those Libertines, who are not capable of a long Application: Thus never reading those great Volumes, they do not draw Conclusions disadvantageous to the Christian Religion. But as for Books of the size of that of M. de Condoms, all the world reads them. Now you cannot believe how much the Method those Gentlemen make use of, who have invented these gentle ways, confirms these Libertines in their sentiments. Religion is therein represented to them with a Face wholly new; and thereupon they tell us, here is a man who transports us into another Country: In this new Religion Images are not made use of, Saints are not invoqued, they are only prayed to, as we pray the faithful upon the Earth to beseech God in our Regard. I had hitherto believed that the Devotions for the Virgin Mary, and for the other Saints, were things of importance: I see that most part of the Devout lay great stress upon these things; and yet these say that they are nothing, that they may be let alone, and that it is sufficient to invoke God and Jesus Christ; they evidently give ground; they acknowledge that the Church has erred, and that it is in the wrong to recommend the Service of Images and the invocation of Saints upon pain of Anathema. If the Church has erred in those Articles, why should it be infallible in the others? It was mistaken, when it ordered us to adore Images, build Temples, institute Feasts, and make Sacrifices to the honour of Saints; and why may it not likewise have been mistaken in that it has given us for Divine, a Book which perhaps is not so? It has no other surety to give us for the truth of those Books, and of that Religion which is founded upon those Books, than its Authority and infallibility; here are Catholic Authors, who evidently make a breach in that infallible Authority; and thus they open the door to all our Doubts.  Prov. 
I understand you. But is this the Party you think capable of ruining the Catholic Religion?  Par. 
No: These are not our most dangerous Enemies: They are such Catholics, as I call the third Party, who make profession of believing that the Roman Church is the true Church, that we ought to be inseparably fixed in it, and that we ought never to separate from it, but who, however, do not act as it commands, nor have any respect for its Worship. These sort of people were never so numerous as they are now in this Kingdom. There be some amongst them who push their incredulity so far, as to doubt of the most important truths of Christianity. They are Socinians, they neither believe the Mystery of the Trinity, nor that of the Incarnation. I know such particular instances, that I do not doubt thereof. I shall not tell you them, because they would only help to make you abhor them. And what is most terrible is, that it is not only the Religion of our young Abbots, it is the Divinity of some grave and wise Societies, and who make parade of the purity of their manners, and of their zeal for the Catholic Faith. Judge you whether such persons as doubt of the mysteries of the Trinity, and the Incarnation, which all Christians receive, have respect for that of the Real Presence and of Transubstantiation, which has been exposed to so many Contradictions within these seven or eight hundred years? Without reckoning these Socinians, it is certain that several Catholics are in no manner persuaded of the truth of this Mystery; neither do they make any difficulty of opening themselves to the Enemies of our Religion, when they are one to one, and that they cannot be troubled for it. When they are asked how they can adore an Object which they only look upon as a Creature? they say, that they do not adore the Sacrament, but that their adoration has respect to Jesus Christ, who is seated in the Heavens upon the Throne of Glory.  Prov. 
Not long since I happened to be in a place, where I was Witness of a very warm debate between Divines, who accused certain new Philosophers, of being very ill Catholics, and of being of Intelligence with the Calvinists upon the point of the Eucharist. Are not these the people you spoke of?  Par. 
Yes; at least those you mention are part of those I spoke of; for there are several others, besides these new Philosophers, who have no faith for the mysteries of the Eucharist. Those new Philosophers you speak of are called Cartesians and Gassendists. I never much concerned myself with those Philosophical disputes; but I have heard them so often debated, that I remember some of them. I have often heard say, that these Philosophers believe, some that the Essence of the Matter and of Bodies consists in the actual space, and others that it consists in the impenetrability. Thereupon the zealous Catholics tell them that this Philosophy ruins the mystery of the Real Presence; for if the Bodies are essentially extended, and impenetrable, it is impossible that the Body of Jesus Christ can be in the Eucharist without extent and penetracting itself; that is to say, having its parts thrown into one another. Now it is the Faith of the Church, that the Body of Jesus Christ is in the Sacrament included under a point.  Prov. 
This difficulty is sensible; it is not necessary to be a Philosopher to comprehend it: What answer do they make to it?  Par. 
They reply to it by great protestations of the purity of their Faith, and of their Submission to the Church; they say that they speak thereof as Philosophers, and not as Divines; that they consider Matter in its natural state, when they define it by extent, or that they declare it to be essentially impenetrable; that they do not trouble themselves with what it may be in its supernatural Estate, wherein God can put it by his Power: They turn themselves a hundred ways. Some say, that extent is the Essence of Bodies, but not such an extent; that the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ had at the age of one Year, was the same Body that he had at the age of thirty Years: That the Body of Jesus Christ may be in the Eucharist, having only the greatness of a Hand-worm; and that this extent is sufficient to save this truth, that the essence of Bodies consists in extent. They likewise say, that the essence of the Body of Jesus Christ consists in a certain little part of the Brain, which is almost insensible, in which the Soul is fixed: And that by supposing that in the Eucharist there is only that essential part of the Lords Body, he may be there Corporally without taking up much Room. Others say, that God deludes the Senses, and that after the Consecration, that which appears bread, is really the body of Jesus Christ, that this Body of Jesus Christ is extended; but that God by his Power causes this extent to remain invisible; that bodies keep often their extent, and yet that extension is not to be perceived. When we see a Giant from the top of a Mountain, he appears to us a Pigmy, yet he keeps all his bulk. In fine, they say such strange and improbable things, that it is clear that they themselves are not at all persuaded of them, and have no hopes of persuading others. In a word, being we cannot renounce Common sense, nor believe that such able men have lost theirs, we cannot be persuaded that they really believe Transubstantiation possible. The misfortune is, that such people as are engaged in these Principles, are not ordinary men; but the most Illustrious Societies of the Church, and the purest, and the chiefest Wits of the age. The Divines of Port-Royal are men who have distinguished themselves as much as can be by their probity, by the purity of their Morality and Divinity, by their solitary and retired way of living from the world, by their vast enlarged knowledge, by the penetration of their Wit, by the beauty and fertility of their imagination, by the beauties they have enriched our Tongue with, and by Productions that are a great honour to France, and of great use to the Republic of Letters. All these so able men have as much Inclination for Cartesianisme as for Christianity. That great Society of the Fathers of Oratory have the same Principles. I know not whether you have heard talk of a Book called, The Search of Truth. This age has not produced a piece wherein there is more subtlety of argument, more penetration of Wit, and more solid Metaphysics. The Author of this Book, as well as all those of his Society, seems to have a very great zeal for that Philosophy. The truth is, that the Fathers of the Oratory have promised neither to speak nor write thereof any more; but they have not promised not to think thereof; and as long as they shall think they cannot forbear communicating their thoughts. After all, this Method of hindering the teaching a Doctrine, is not so proper as is believed for the hindering its progress; especially when Philosophy is concerned, concerning which the Wits are persuaded their liberty ought not to be limited: And we are the more violently inclined to things that are forbidden us.  Prov. 
I have harkened very attentively to all you have said, and have well enough comprehended it; though it is not at all my Trade. But I do not understand what reference all this has to the Book, of M. de Condom; and how this Book, which seems to have so much respect for the Mystery of the Eucharist, can serve to increase the Party of those people who pretend to be the great wits, and who raise their reason against our Mysteries.  Par. 
I will make you presently comprehend it. All the Catholics of the third Party, who have not too much respect for our Mysteries, have a profound Contempt for all popular Devotions. They look upon the Introduction of Images into Churches as a thing that might very well be laid aside; the invocation of Saints as a superfluity in the Worship, and is the Obstacle to the reunion of all Christians; and the Excesses that are committed in that invocation of Saints, as terrible superstitions that slain Religion: They blame the worship of Relics, they laugh at all the Miracles that are made by Images. They say that Pilgrimages, Indulgences, Stations, the visits of Privileged Churches and Altars, Scapularies, Rosaries, Fraternities, are Monachal Devotions, and are only good to maintain the cheats of begging Monks. I myself heard one of these Gentlemen say, that the Doctrine of the Catholic Church was good, but that three parts of the Catholics were Idolaters, by the abuse that they made of the invocation of Saints, and the Service of Images. You are not such a stranger in the world, as not to have heard talk of a little Book called, Salutary Advices of the blessed Virgin to her indiscreet Votaries. This Book introduces the Virgin as speaking, and condemning all the Devotions, and condemning all the Devotions, by which she is usually honoured: The Bishop of Tourney has made an Apology for this work, in his Pastoral Letter. These Opinions have found more approvers in France amongst our great Clergy than is credible. But neither is it credible how much all the good and simple Souls amongst the Catholics have been scandalised at them. These Libertine Writings have been refuted by other very Catholic Writings. Messire Lewis d' Abelly, Bishop of Rhodez, and Father Crasset the Jesuit, have Learnedly and Solidly defended the Doctrine and Practice of the Church, in what concerns the honour that is done the Mother of God. But this does not hinder the contrary Party from increasing, to the great scandal of all good Catholics. Now it is certain, that nothing has more helped to augment that Party, than M. the Condom's piece, which reduces the Service of Images to nothing, the invocasion of Saints and veneration of Holy Relics to very little; speaking very faintly of Indulgences, saying nothing of Purgatory, and giving no great Idea of the Fruits of the Sacrifice of the Messiah. It cannot be doubted, but that M. de Condom, and all the Divines of his Party, are of the same sentiments with the Author of the Salutary Advices of the blessed Virgin to her undiscreet Votaries, and by Consequence they look upon all Popular Devotions as great Superstitions. Now certainly this is not edifying; it makes Heretics Triumph, and helps to confirm them in their aversion to the Church. Though it should happen, that the people and the Religious should carry a little too far the honour and Service that are rendered to the Friends of God and his Mother, it would be better to dissemble it, than to confess these excesses, and condemn them. These Gentlemen are likewise so imprudent, as to bring to light such scandalous Histories as rejoice Heretics. By example, can any thing be more terrible than what they have caused to be Printed against Indulgences and Relics, with that Bull of Innocent the 11th. which condemns some supposed Relics, without design of injuring those that are real? Amongst others, this is one of the Stories they have published; In the year 1668 Pope Alexander the 4th sent into France three Chests of Relics, to be put into the Hospital Church. These three Chests were bound up with red silk Cords, and sealed with the Seal of Cardinal Ginetti, Commissary for the Relics, and with the Seal of the Pope's Sacristain. These Relics were accompanied with a Bull, which said, that they might with all safety be exposed to the veneration of the People. Magnificent Bills were set up in all parts to invite the People to this Devotion. The Bishops of Bayeux, and Cahors, Father Don Cosme, Father Crassot, and the Abbot Fromentieres, were to preach during the Octave. It It was however ordered, they should be searched. In the third Chest was found a Head, which at first appeared to be a real one: It had this Inscription, Caput Sancti Fortunati: In searching it, there was perceived above the ear a piece of painted Cloth: The Physician whose name was M. de , took an Instrument, scraped it, and thrust it in, and found it was a Paist-board Head. They put a lighted Candle into the Head, but the light did not penetrate; at last they cast the Head into hot water, which took away the Paint, and the Paist-board fell in pieces. M. de St.  made his verbal Process thereof; but by a sealed Letter he was forbidden to show it, upon pain of being sent the same moment to the Bastille. Is not it insupportable, that Heretics must learn such like stories from Catholics? and what kind of Catholics are these? After all, these Catholics of the third Party have passed by that bound of respect which was the safety of the Church; which is, the Opinion of its infallibility. It is impossible that such people, as look upon with so much contempt the Devotions that the Church authorises, hold that Church for infallible. If they give the liberty of believing that it has erred in some things, they will not stay to examine the rest; and perhaps that their false Lights will carry them much farther than they at present design to go. Thus I conceive that these mild ways, that are believed of so great use for the Conversion of Heretics, may one day ruin the Church of France, and the Low Countries, if God and the Holy See do not take care in it.  Prov. 
I am very well satisfied with having heard you, and you have learned me several things that I was desirous to know. There remains some difficulties, touching the means that are to be made use of, for reducing Hugonots to the Church; but I must take some time to think of those difficulties, for the digesting them, before I ask your instructions. Since to day is your weekly day of repose, be pleased, Sir, to come Dine with me at my Lodging this day seven night. We will there have a Room only for us two, and you shall make an end of informing me.  Par. 
I willingly consent to it, and shall not fail to be at the Rendezvous.  
The End of the First Part.   

THE POLICY OF THE CLERGY of FRANCE.  
The Second Conference.  The Parisian. 
YOU see, Sir, how exact I am in keeping my word, I am only afraid I have made you wait too long. I had much  to get from a crowd of People who have troubled me all this Morning.  Prov. 
Persons so agreeable to Company cannot be seen too much. But the Cook belonging to the House expected your coming the more patiently, for I fancy his Dinner is not yet ready.  Before Dinner they discourse of the News of the Time, after Dinner the Conversation is thus renewed. Par. 
Tell me, Sir, what you have done since I had the honour to see you?  Prov. 
I have hardly done any thing, but I have suffered a great deal. In going from your House I found at my Lodging a Huguenot Gentleman waiting for me; After some indifferent Conversations, I made him fall upon that of Religion, and was willing to make use of the Counsel you had given me; that is to say, I moved him to quit his Religion, considering the approaching ruin with which it is threatened. But, alas! I have extremely repent I brought him upon that point, he has almost stunned me with Complaints and Reasons. He is yet much more knowing than you in the particulars of the means that are employed for the destroying his Party; since our Conference I have seen him daily, it being impossible for me to avoid him; for he was at my Bedside before I was awake. Being a person of Quality, and distinguishing himself both by his Merit and Riches, I durst not order my Valet▪ de Chambre to deny him entrance. Thus I have been obliged to suffer his persecution, and give him audience three or four times every day.  Par. 
Good God How could he find so many things to say upon one and the same point?  Prov. 
He has repeated to me all that you told me, and has very much enlarged, by maintaining it with several stories that neither you nor I knew. He has shown me how much the Conduct that is held against their Party is contrary to Honesty, Humanity, Good-faith, and even to the true Interest of the King and State. In sine, I fancy a Book might be made of all he told me. Thus, far from converting him, he had like to have perverted me.  Par. 
I should be glad to know some of the particulars of your Conversations.  Prov. 
I waited with great impatience to impart them to you; for he has very much fortified the difficulty that I intent to propose to you. To speak seriously, I must assure you, he sometimes moved and touched me. For example, he told me yesterday; Must so many efforts be used to force from us that French heart that God and Birth has given us? What have we done to merit so many misfortunes, and such severe punishments? We are hunted, we are driven up and down as if we were the Plagues of the Republic; We are treated as the enemies of the Christian Name. In places where the Jews are tolerated, they have all manner of liberty, they exercise Arts and Merchandise; they are Physicians, they are consulted, the health and life of Christians is put into their hands: And as for us, as if we were infected, we are forbidden to approach Children that come into the World, we are banished from the Bars and Faculties, we are removed from the King's Person, we are banished from Societies, our Charges are taken from us, we are forbidden the use of all means that might secure us from being famished; we are abandoned to the hatred of the People, we are deprived of that precious liberty that we had purchased by so many Services; our Children are taken from us, who are a part of ourselves; we are made to lead a languishing life, in lowness, in poverty, and often in dark Prisons. Formerly, when Declarations were made against us, they were at most contented with Registering them in the Rolls. They are at present fixed up, they are cried about the Streets as if they were Gazettes, to inspire the People with a spirit of fury against us. And they have been so successful, that in the great Cities of France we expect to have our Throats cut, one time or another, by a popular Sedition; so that we are very near the Inquisition. Can it be said, that there is Liberty of Conscience in a Kingdom, where the People are banished, lose their Honour, and their Goods are confiscated for Religion's sake? There needs nothing more than Fire; and that terrible Tribunal of the Inquisition, which France has been hitherto so much afraid of, will be established there. Are we Turks, are we Infidels? We believe in Jesus Christ, we believe him the eternal Son of God, we invoke him solely; and we have no Idols. We have a sovereign respect for the Sacred Scriptures, we believe there is a Heaven and a Hell, the Maxims of our Morality are of so great a purity, that they dare not contradict them. We have a respect for Kings, we are good Subjects, good Citizens, faithful in Commerce: Let us be tried according to Law, and it will appear if we have been engaged in any Conspiracy against the State, and if we have any ways failed in our duty. Thanks be to God, nothing can stagger our fidelity, and the stock of love we have for our Prince is not to be drained: if it depended on our Enemies, we should be Enemies of the State we make a part of; they design to push us on to Crimes, that the King may have a just occasion of ruining us; but they have hitherto miss their aim, and are like to do so still; the King may see it, whilst that they so successfully turn the effects of his goodness from us, there is not one of us but who is ready to lose his life for his sake; we are Frenchmen as well as we are Reform Christians; we would shed to the very last drop of the blood of our veins to serve our King, and for the preserving our Religion, even to Death.  Par. 
If your Huguenot Gentleman has studied Rhetoric, he has not wholly lost his time.  Prov. 
I know not if he has studied much, but I easily perceive that passion is the source of his Eloquence; for he told me what I have newly related to you, with a zeal and passion that would have moved you.  Par. 
But could not you have stopped that Orator's Mouth with one word, in telling him, that if the condition of the Catholics in Holland and England was described, and in all the Places where the Hugonots are Masters, one might make a representation of their miseries, much more touching than that they make of the ill Treatment the Religionaries receive in France?  Prov. 
I did not fail to lay that before his Eyes; but he had a hundred things to tell me thereupon.  Par. 
You would oblige me by relating some of them.  Prov. 
I will tell you them. First, in regard of Holland, He told me that I supposed a thing very far from truth; that the Catholics are there in oppression. I know, said he to me, that you have been in that Country, and you cannot deny, but that they go there with as much liberty to Mass, as at Paris. Would to God, added he, that our Reformed had the same Conveniences; there is not a City where the Catholics are in a considerable number, but that they have ten or twenty Houses, wherein Mass is openly said, and with an entire liberty. They are seen to go in there, they are seen to come out from them; and no body dares say to them a word against it. All that they are troubled at, is that they are not Masters of the Churches, and that they are obliged to do their Service in particular Houses. There is in Holland, a Country of small extent, ten times more ecclesiastics than there are Ministers in all France, which is very large. There is a complete Clergy and Hierarchy. Amsterdam, and all the other great Cities have their Bishops. These Bishops have their Chapter and their Priests: There are even Religious Houses. It is true, that all these people are something disguised; but are they the less known? Would it be difficult to unkennel them? They are as well known as the ecclesiastics are in France, and are not in the least insulted. It is likewise true, that at the solicitation of some of the most zealous of the people, the States formerly issued out Placates from time to time, which forbade the exercise of the Catholic Religion; but this is no longer so, and it never caused one Stone to be took up against them. It cost them about twenty or thirty Pistols for the Sheriff, who put those Placates into his Pocket, and no more talk was heard of them. He added to this, That it is unheard of, that in that Country the Catholics have been fatigued for the being Converted; they are not at all disturbed in their Commerce. They are Merchants, Physicians, Artisans, Advocates; and, except the Charges of the Government of the State, they are received without distinction into all Professions, without so much as enquiring of what Religion they are. No Body has Actions brought against them upon the account of Relapses, or for having changed Religion. In a word, Liberty of Conscience is entire there, as well as in all other places where the Reformed Religion Rules. I avow to you that I had nothing to reply to this Article; for I had seen with my Eyes all that he said. There was one day with me in a longboat, or Schupe, a Priest dressed in black , who was not otherwise disguised, than that his Coat was short, who said his Breviary before a hundred persons, with as much liberty as he could have done in France.  Par. 
And what said he of England?  Prov. 
He said, that at London there are five and twenty Houses, without counting those of the Ambassadors of Catholic Princes, wherein Mass is publicly said, without any search being ever made; that the truth is, the liberty is not so great in the Country; but that all Gentlemen had their Almoners and Priests in their Houses, and that all the Catholics went thither to Mass. But that this was not what he had principally to oppose me with. But I'll allow, said he, that Catholics have less liberty in Holland, and in England, than the Reformed have in France. But is there any Justice to compare, in this regard, France with England? Why is not England compared with Spain, Italy, Hungary, and all the Territories of Germany, subject to the House of Austria? They oppose us with the Severity of the English against the Catholics, and we oppose the cruelty of the Spaniards against our people. Is there any Comparison! The Catholics have not the liberty of exercise in England; but they live there, they Traffic there, they exercise Arts there, they are known there without danger, they even perform their Service there without other hurt, if they be discovered, than that they are forbid to return. In Spain and Italy, those they call Calvinists and Lutherans are chased away like Lions and Bears: They go in quest of them, and if they be discovered they are burnt alive. If they have the boldness of making any public act of their Religion, there are no punishments cruel enough to be inflicted upon them. It is sufficient that they are suspected, or only accused of Lutheranism, for to be cast into the Prisons of the Inquisition, where they must perish without Remedy.  Par. 
That is not ill imagined. For, in fine, it is certain that the Inquisitition has not yet been established against the Catholics, in the Countries where the Heresy of Luther and Calvin Govern. But did he say nothing to you of more force?  Prov. 
You shall hear; what he aded appeared considerable to me, which was, that Huguenot Princes cannot have the same toleration for Catholics in their States, that Catholic Princes can have for Hugonots; because that Protestant Princes cannot be assured of the fidelity of their Catholic Subjects, by reason they have taken Oaths of fidelity to another Prince, whom they consider as greater than all Kings. It is the Pope; and this Prince is a sworn Enemy of the Protestants. He obliges the People to believe that a Sovereign turned Heretic has forfeited all the Rights of Sovereignty; that they own him no Obedience; that they may with impunity revolt against him, that they may fall upon him as an Enemy of the Christian Name, even to assassinate him. [See the Jesuits Morals, cap. 3. Book the Third.] And thereupon he cited to me, Mariana, Carolus, Scribanus, Ribadnera, Tolet, Gretser, Hercun, Amicus, Lescius, Valentia, Dicatillus, and several others, that are cited by the Jansenists, in the Book of the Jesuits Morals, and by the Ministers. All these Authors, said he to me, teach conformably to the Divinity of Rome, that a Heretic Prince, and Excommunicated by the Pope, is but a particular person, against whom Arms may be taken; that he may be likewise Assassinated, or poisoned. He added to this, the examples of so many Parricides that have been committed, or attempted according to these Maxims. How many times, said he, would they have Assassinated Queen Elizabeth? Prince Willam of Orange was twice Assassinated, and lost his Life the Second time. Henry the Third, was not he killed by a Jacobin, as Excommunicated by the Pope, and stripped of the Royal Dignity? John Chastel, did not he attempt the same thing upon Henry the Fourth: And did not Ravilliac out of a false Zeal Assassinate him. After which he gave me an account of the Gun powder Plot in England; by which, in the year 1606. the Catholic had undertaken to blow up the King and all the Grandees of the Kingdom, by a Mine they had made under the Parliament House. He told me of the Jesuits Garnet and Oldcorn, Chief of that Conspiracy, who were put into the number of the Martyrs, whether they would or no; for the Jesuit Garnet going to Execution, some one of his Companions telling him softly in his Ear, that he was going to be a Martyr, he answered, Nunquam audivi parricidam esse Martyrem, I never heard that a Parricide was a Martyr. He related to me a hundred scandalous Stories of that nature. Amongst others, he told me one that extremely surprised me; he read it to me with all its circumstances, in a little Book that had been published by an English Minister, who calls himself the King of England's Chaplain. Thus it is in short: A Divine, who had been the Chaplain of King Charles who was beheaded, turned Catholic some time before his Master's Death, and the English Jesuits put such confidence in him, that they imparted to him a very terrible thing; It was a Consultation allowed of by the Pope, about the means of re-establishing the Catholic Religion in England. The English Catholics, seeing that the King was a Prisoner in the hands of the Independants, form the Resolution of laying hold on that occasion to destroy the Protestant Religion, and re-establish the Catholic Religion. They concluded, that the only means of re-establishing the Catholic Religion, and of cashiering all the Laws that had been made against it in England, was to dispatch the King, and destroy Monarchy. That they might be authorized and maintained in this great Undertaking, they deputed eighteen Father-Jesuits to Rome, to demand the Pope's advice. The matter was agitated in secret Assemblies, and it was concluded, that it was permitted and just to put the King to Death. Those Deputies, in their passage through Paris, consulted the Sorbonne, who, without waiting for the Opinion of Rome, had judged that that enterprise was just and legitimate; and upon the return of the Jesuits, who had taken the Journey to Rome, they communicated to the Sorbonnists the Pope's Answer, of which several Copies were taken. The Deputies, who had been at Rome, being returned to London, confirmed the Catholics in their Design. To compass this point, they thrust themselves in amongst the Independants, by dissembling their Religion. They persuaded those people that the King must be put to Death; and it cost that poor Prince his Life some Months after. But that Death of King Charles not having had all the Consequences that had been hoped; and all Europe having cried out with horror against the Parricide committed in the Person of that poor Prince; they would have drawn in again all the Copies that had been made of the Consultation of the Pope, and of that of Sorbonne; but this English Chaplain who had turned Catholic would not restore his; and he has communicated it, since the return of the Family of the Stuarts to the Crown of England, to several persons who are still alive, and were Eye-witnesses of what I have now told you.  Par. 
I never heard this before. But the English Calvinists not producing any authentic pieces to prove this accusation, it may be looked upon as a Calumny.  Prov. 
My Huguenot Gentleman would not answer for it, for he is very just; However he added, that what rendered it very probable, is, that this Conduct is a sequal of the Divinity of the zealous Catholics of Spain, Italy, and even of France: Moreover there are several Circumstances which render the thing apparent. By example, he that lately published this story, had already once published it in the year 1662., to answer a little Book that insulted over the English Calvinists, in that they had put to death their King. The Divine, who knew the story that I have related, published it to prove that the Catholics were guilty of the Crime which the Calvinists were accused of. When this story came to light, there was a great emotion in the House of the Queen-Mother of the King of England, that House being full of Jesuits; and even that great Lord, who had lead the Jesuits to Rome, and had made himself chief of that Conspiracy, was one of the principal Officers of the House. They immediately demanded Justice of the King, by the means of the Queen-Mother, for the outrage that he who had published this scandalous story had done them. The Doctor offered to prove his Accusation, and to produce his Witnesses, who were still living. The great Lord and Officer of the Queen's House, and the Jesuits, seeing the resolution of this Man, durst not push him on; they only obtained from the King, by the means of the Queen-Mother, that he should be silenced. You must avow that there are but few that are innocent, who would have been so easy in so terrible an Accusation. Besides, it is certain that this Consultation of Rome has been seen by several persons. If it is false, it must have been forged by this Chaplain who was turned Catholic, and who shown it since; now it must be confessed that this is not very likely. However, as all this is reduced to a single Witness, my Gentleman acknowledged that the proof was not wholly in the forms; but he stood much upon the late Conspiracy of England, which was discovered two years ago, by which half the Kingdom was to have had their Throats cut for the becoming Masters of the rest.  Par. 
You had a fine opportunity to stop him there; for you know very well that our Catholics maintain, that it is a perfect Calumny invented by the Calvinists, for the having an occasion to persecute the Catholics. The Jesuits of St. Omer, have they not made appear that their Witnesses, Oats and Bedlow, are false Witnesses?  Prov. 
I did not fail to make him that reply; but I avow to you, that my Conscience did not permit me to rely much upon that Answer; for to tell you the truth, I am very much persuaded that it is false: I know that the mistaken zeal and fury that the false Religion inspires, are capable of a great many things. I easily conceive, that it might come into the head of forty of fifty false Zealots to lay a train for the ruin of the Party they would destroy; but I shall never persuade myself, that a whole Kingdom should enter into such a Conspiracy; and that a Parliament, composed of five or six hundred persons assembled from all the parts of a great State, can enter unanimously into the Infernal Spirit of supposing such a Crime against Millions of Innocents', for the having a pretext to persecute them. And my old Huguenot, who is full of fire, and has a great deal of good sense, took me up immediately with much vigour, saying, Is it possible that such a man as you can say such a thing? Ah! leave such stories to the Jesuits of St. Omers; they are accused, it is not strange that they defend themselves; and the action is so black and so detestable, that they cannot do less than disavow it: If it had had a happy success, they would have been proud of it; at present, now they are discovered, they deny it. If there needs no more than denying to be justified, never any one would be guilty. They justify themselves after a pretty manner, they send about Certificates and Attestations to prove the Contradictions they impute to Oats: which are things very hard to make and obtain. In a severe Morality, as is that of the Jesuits, it is a great point for the persons who are instructed in their Schools to give false Certificates for the saving the Honour of all the Society of the Jesuits, and even of all the Roman Church. Though we had not the Trials of Hill, Green, Berry, Coleman, Ireland, Grove, and Pickering, which justify the truth of that Conspiracy; is it credible, that there can be such wicked Judges, as to condemn to death so many innocent persons? If they had only had a design of dispatching those seven persons, they had clandestine way to compass it: But they must have renounced good Sense, as well as Conscience, to try openly, and in the face of all Europe, people whose innocence appearing to the eyes of all the Earth, would have covered with shame and infamy those who should have condemned them. If it be only a pretended quarrel against the Catholics, for the having a pretext to ruin them, why are they not ruined? All that has been spread abroad on this side the Sea are Fables: It has not cost the life of one person, besides these Wretches. The Roman Catholics have been for some time obliged to remove from London, a very great punishment indeed for so detestable a Conspiracy! I am certain, that if such a Conspiracy of the Protestants has been discovered in France against the Catholics, which God forbidden, there would not be at this time one only Huguenot in the Kingdom; and the People could not have been hindered from Massacring those who should have escaped from the rigours of the Justice. The Murder committed in the person of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey, the first Justice who took the Depositions▪ and Particulars of the Conspiracy, is so speaking and strong a proof, that it alone is capable of confounding those who would charge the Protestants with the horrible Crime of having invented all that Tragedy, for the aspersing the Roman Church. What had that poor Justice done to merit the being assassinated? Is it not clear, that those Gentlemen who so well know how to make use of the Poniard and the Knife, had a mind to terrify all the Judges, and hinder them from pursuing an Inquest which should cost the Lives of all those who should make Information and pass Sentence? Oats and Bedlow are false Witnesses! They are then false Witnesses of an admirable Character, false Witnesses who agree perfectly well amongst themselves, and never contradict one another: But for all this, they are false Witnesses who have concerted their business very ill! If it is a Conspiracy, it is a trick invented for the dishonouring the Society of the Jesuits, to hang and quarter their Companions: Methinks these false Witnesses ought to understand themselves something better. On the Seventeenth of December five that were Accused were brought to be Examined, and have their Trial, Whitebread the Provincial of the Jesuits, William Ireland, John Fenwick, Thomas Pickering, and John Grove: Oats and Bedlow were produced against them as Witnesses: These two Witnesses were found to know enough, and to have said enough to cause three of those persons to be condemned, Ireland, Pickering, and Grove: Oats equally charged the five, but Bedlow knew not enough to cause Whitebread and Fenwick to be condemned; insomuch that they were obliged to send back to Prison these two last, both of them Jesuits, and to put off their Trial till farther Information. This is strange, these two false Witnesses are great Fools; Whitebread is the chief of the Conspiracy, the Provincial of the Jesuits, he whom they had the most reason to ruin, and they are so imprudent as not to be of intelligence to tell one another what is capable of causing him to be condemned, this is not to be comprehended. Oates is a false Witness, he says too much to be believed, as is reported. It must be confessed, that if the Depositions of that Man are false, it is the strangest and most unheard of thing in the World. All the examples of fury of past Ages wrapped together, do not approach that which is observed in this false Witness. Never was there a link of such terrible Crimes as that Man charges the Accused with. They have, says he, burnt London several times, they would assassinate the King, the Princes, the Grandees, and almost two thirds of the Inhabitants of the Kingdom, overturn the State, destroy the Religion, change the Government, and to that intent set whole Rivers of blood a flowing. Is it credible, that there is so wicked a Man in the World, as to charge those that are innocent with so many Crimes? Perhaps that a passion of revenge might move a Man to lay so Infernal a train, to satisfy himself for some outrage he had received. But what outrage does there appear, that Oats and Bedlow had received from the roman-catholics? The most part of those that are accused maintain that Oats and Bedlow are unkown to them. If they are unknown to them, they have not then done them any outrage which might more them to so prodigious a revenge: Moreover, by the Testimony of those amongst the accused, who confess they know their Accusers, it is certain that both of these Witnesses were roman-catholics; They had not changed their Religion, had it not been for the horror of the Plot; they had not become Apostates, had not they been pricked in their Consciences; they had not any other reason to be pushed on by a spirit of hatred against the Catholic Religion, and against those who profess it: wherefore it was only the horror of the Fact which struck them, and obliged them to prevent so horrible effusion of blood. Methinks that false Witnesses should not charge themselves with so great a number of Facts, lest they should be exposed to contradict one another: There needed no more to be said than, in two or three Articles, that such People have Conspired against the State, and against the Religion, and might have been executed after that manner. But it appears that Oats 〈◊〉 ●ourscore heads of accusation, and makes a History of more than fifteen years, well pursued, and well 〈…〉. It is requisite to have an 〈◊〉 ●●●…tion that has hardly the like, ●●●…vent such a Romance so well pur●●●●…. I likewise find, that those Witne●●s are very bold to invent such horrible Depositions against People who so well know how to make use of the Knife for the dispatching their Enemies, as appears by the Death of Godfrey. The good Nature of those good Fathers would be very great, if they did not revenge themselves on Oats and Bedlow, in case that their Depositions were true; but it is hardly credible, that it would reach so far as to let two Impostors live peaceably, who had charged them with the most horrid Calumnies that Hell had ever imagined. And if they have a design to destroy them, it is hard if they do not succeed in it sooner or later: The King's Safeguards, and the Protection of the Parliament, will little help them. Wherefore if Oates and Bedlow were false Witnesses, they are great Fools to expose themselves into so great a danger in this life for the damning themselves also in the other. In fine, my Huguenot Gentleman told me, What have we to do with Oats and Bedlow to prove the Truth of that Conspiracy? Let us take them, if you will, from off the Scene, and judge of the business by Coleman's Letters to Father le Cheise, and to some others. These Letters have been acknowledged, the accused have not denied them. There is one to the Pope's Nuncio at Brussels, Dated the 9th of August, 1674. which says in proper terms, That their design advanced apace, and that they should quickly see the ruin of the Protestant Party. Is any thing of more force than what Coleman says to Father le Cheise, in one of the Letters he wrote to him; We have undertaken a great Work; it is no less than the Conversion of three Kingdoms, and the entire subversion of that pestilent Heresy which has for so long a time ruled over this Northern part of the World: And we have never had so great hopes since the Reign of Our Queen Mary. And towards the end of the Letter, he powerfully solicits Father le Cheise to obtain succours of Money and Arms for putting in execution this great Design. It is perhaps by the way of Preaching that Coleman pretended to Convert those three Kingdoms! Arms and Money are very necessary to give efficacy to Grace and Preaching! It is certainly, in that spirit of Zeal and well regulated Devotion, that Coleman says; Though I had a Sea of Blood, and a thousand Lives, I would willingly lose them all for the execution of this Design; and if to bring it to pass, it was requisite, to destroy an hundred Heretic Kings, I would do it. These words are pretty strong: It is Bedlow who has reported them, and says, he heard them. If he invented them in cold Blood, and without being moved with Anger, I find him admirable in the art of feigning Passions: For it must be avowed, that these expressions give us a lively image of a Man the most moved and the most concerned that has ever been seen. For a Man of War, as Bedlow. I find he would be very Eloquent, and that he would succeed admirably well in composing the Character of a Stage-Hero. Let us speak seriously, one must have renounced all Modesty to dare to maintain that all this great action is only a Comedy and a Fiction.  Par. 
But as concerning Father le Cheise, whom your Huguenot spoke of in the affair of Coleman, I have admired how the English have aspersed him by the publication of Colemans' Trial. For this Father is every where therein, in the middle, beginning, and the end; and it is upon him that the most convincing proofs turn that are produced against Coleman. It appears that this F. Jesuit was of the Party, and that he was engaged very deep into the design of re-establishing the Roman Catholic Religion in England, by fire and by the effusion of Blood.  Prov. 
My Gentleman made me that remark, and told me thereupon, Methinks that the King's Equity ought to move him not to hearken to such a Man in what regards the Interests of the Subjects of the Reformed Religion. What may not the Protestants of France fear from a Man who has been so deeply engaged in the design of cutting the Throats of so many millions of Protestants? What Counsels may not he give to the King against us, who would have set whole Rivers of the Blood of our Brethren aslowing, and make a St. Bartholomew beyond the Seas? Though he was innocent of the Affair of England, the advices he gives against us ought to be suspected. For it is clear, that he ought to have a great resentment of the fierce accusations that have been form against him, and that he would have the intention to revenge himself on the Protestants of France, for the outrages that he might pretend to have received from the Protestants of England. Wherefore it is certain, that the King ought to consider him as our declared enemy, and as a passionate enemy, and not as a zealous Catholic. However, this Father Jesuit brags he is the Master of all the King's Resolutions in what concerns us. It is he, if he may be believed, to whom the Catholic Church is indebted for all the severe Declarations that have been made against us. And when the Declaration was obtained, which forbids Catholics to turn to the Reformed Religion, he entered into the Assembly of the Clergy with that Declaration in his hand, with a triumphing air, and said, Here is the piece that has been so long a soliciting; it is I that have obtained it. If this man be so powerful over the King's mind, as he brags he is, the Protestants of France could not be secure of their lives. We know from good hands, added he, that the Members of the Council are not too well satisfied in, that the affairs His Majesty was used to consult them about, and believe them in, are at present put into the hands of a Jesuit.  Par. 
For my part, I avow to you, I am not too well persuaded no more than you, that this Conspiracy of the English Catholics is a fiction: But I endeavour to persuade it to others, because that I wish it were so for the honour of the Catholic Religion, which never ought to inspire such Designs.  Prov. 
Be it as it will, my Huguenot Gentleman concluded from all this, that a Protestant Prince can never be assured of the Fidelity of his Catholic Subjects. On the contrary, said he, the Protestants are subject to their Prince out of Conscience, and out of a Principle of their Religion: They acknowledge no other Superior than their King. and do not believe that for the cause of Heresy it is permitted, either to kill a legitimate Prince, or to refuse him obedience.  Par. 
You might have asked him, if what the English do at present against the Duke of York, agrees well with that Divinity? Because that he is said to be Catholic, they would declare him uncapable of succeeding his Brother.  Prov. 
I had not time to propose to him that difficulty, for he prevented it. It is true, said he to me, that the troubles which are in England seem to tend towards the refusing Obedience to the Duke of York, because he is a Catholic. When a Sovereign is mounted upon the Throne by legitimate means, it seems, said I to him, that he ought at least to have as much privilege as his Subjects, and enjoy as well as them the Liberty of Conscience. That is true, answered he me, when he has not bound his hands by his own Laws. But by the Laws of the Kingdom of England, which are the Laws of the King as well as of the State, the King is obliged not to suffer any other Religion in the State, than the Protestant Religion. These Laws cannot be repealed but by the Parliament jointly with the King; because that in that Kingdom, for the making or repealing Laws, the King can do nothing without the Parliament, nor the Parliament without the King. Wherefore if the Parliament is against the Repealing of these Laws, if they must subsist, and while that they subsist, the King has not power to establish in his Family a different Religion from that of the State. You know, said he to me, that the people of England have great Privileges, and that the Kings have not the Right to do all that they please. Particularly, added he, when there is a Prince to be established, the States of the Kingdom, who are obliged to be careful of the Preservation of the Religion, are authorized to take all their Sureties, that no change may be made therein: Thus they must either remove from the Throne, if they have the Right to do so, he who would mount into it to ruin the Religion; or at least, they ought to bridle his Authority for the hindering him from making changes. The Religion of Henry the 4th, before he turned Catholic, was an Obstacle to his establishment upon the Throne, which he would never have surmounted though he was the legitimate Heir of the Crown.  Par. 
This man is very knowing. He certainly came prepared upon the matter: For, extempore, he could not have given to his reasons so great an air of likelihood.  Prov. 
He came, without doubt, prepared; and I likewise perceived that he daily consulted people more knowing than himself: For he cleared and argued strongly the next day, upon such points as I had found him weak in the day before. One of the points of which he spoke to me with the most zeal and passion, was that of good Faith. They oppose against us, said he to me, the English and Holland Catholics: But what has been promised to those people that has not been performed? The United Provinces of the Low Countries are entered into the Union with this Condition, of not suffering any other Religion in their States, than the Protestant. Though England was reform under Edward the 6th, afterwards under Elizabeth, by several Acts of Parliament, which are the fundamental Laws of the Kingdom, it was ordered that no other Religion should be suffered than that the Anglicane Church made choice of, and that they would not suffer the Assemblies of those, whom they at present call Nonconformists. It was even forbidden to the Priests and Monks to set Foot in England, and to make any abode there. However they have not kept up to this rigour, and every one knows that there is at present above ten thousand Priests and Monks disguised in England, and that there has ever been so. Wherefore more has been given to the Catholics, than was promised them. But in France, where we live under favourable Edicts, they have promised us what they have not performed: It is only against us that they make profession of not performing what they have promised. The Edicts of Pacification are in all the Forms that perpetual Laws ought to be; they are verified by the Parliaments, they are confirmed by a hundred Declarations, which followed by Consequence, and by a thousand Royal Words: In fine, they have been laid as irrevocable Laws, and as foundations of the Peace of the State. We rely upon the good Faith of so many promises; and on a sudden we see snatched from us, what we looked upon as our greatest security, and which we had possessed for above a hundred years. Thus there is neither Title, nor Prescription, nor Edicts, nor Arrests, nor Declarations which can put us in Safety. This is what he told me, and I avow to you, that this part put me in pain, for I am a Slave of my Word, and an Idolater of good Faith: I look upon it as the only Rampart of Civil Society; and I conceive that States and Public persons are no less obliged to keep what they promise, than particular men.  Par. 
That is true. But do not you know that the health of the people, and the public good, is the Sovereign Law? Very often we must suffer, and even do some Evil, for the good of the State. Peace's and Treaties are daily broken, which have been solemnly sworn, because that the public interest requires it should be so.  Prov. 
My Huguenot made himself that difficulty, and told me thereupon, When War is declared against Neighbours, to the prejudice of Treaties of Peace and Alliances, this is done in the Forms. They publish Manifesto's; they expose, or at least, they suppose Grievances and Infractions in the Articles of the Treaty, that have been made by those against whom War is declared. When a Sovereign revokes the Graces that he had done his Subjects, it is ever under pretext that they have rendered themselves unworthy of them. But are we accused, or can we be accused of having tampered in any Conspiracy, of having had Intelligence with the Enemies of the State, of having wanted Love, Fidelity and Obedience towards our Sovereigns? If it be so, let us be brought to Trial, let the Criminals be informed against, and let the Innocent be distinguished from those that are Guilty. We speak boldly therein, because we are certain they can reproach us with nothing; and we know that his Majesty himself has very often given Testimony of our Fidelity. He knows that we did not enter into any of the Parties that have been made against his Service, since he has been upon the Throne. During the troubles of his minority, it may be said, that none but those Cities we were Masters of remained Loyal. When the Gates of Orleans were shut upon the King, he went to Gien; and that City was going to be guilty of the same Crime, without the vigour of a Huguenot, who pierced with his Sword in his hand to the Bridge, and let it down himself: This action was known, and recompensed; for the King immediately made him Noble who had done it. We had not any part in the disturbances of Bourdeaux, in those of Britain and Auvergne, nor in the Conspiracy of the Chevalier de Rohan: Not one Huguenot was engaged in these Criminal Cases. The King has been pleased to acknowledge it; and we look upon the Testimony of so great a King as a great Recompense. But our Enemies, who continually solicit him to our ruin, aught to be mindful, that it would be more civil in them, to leave the King the liberty of following his inclinations: These would without doubt move him, to preserve the effects of his kindness for people who have preserved for him an inviolable Fidelity. This is what he told me upon that point; and I confess I was in great perplexity how to answer him; for I durst not make use of that Maxim that I have seen often maintained by some people, that one is not obliged to keep Faith with Heretics. I have ever admired that saying of Charles the Fifth: He caused Martin Luther to come to Worms, and gave him safe Conduct, and his Imperial word, that no hurt should be done him. But not having been able to obtain from him what he desired, he sent him back; some one would have persuaded Charles, That he ought to cause Luther to be seized, without having regard to the safe Conduct, because that this man was of the Character of those to whom one is not obliged to keep one's word. Though good Faith were banished from all the Earth, answered he, it ought to be found in an Emperor. A saying very worthy of so great a Man! But tell me, Sir, is it not an Opinion very contrary to that of Charles the 5th, that is the cause that so little Conscience is made of keeping with those people what has been promised them?  Par. 
This Doctrine that one is not obliged to keep Faith with Heretics, is taught by some Casuists, and they pretend 〈◊〉 it is founded upon the Authority of the Council of Constance, because that that Council caused John Hus to be burnt, contrary to the Faith of the safe Conduct that the Emperor Sigismond had granted him; and Jerome of Prague, notwithstanding the safe Conduct that the same Council had given him.  Prov. 
This Morality ever appeared to me terrible; and I have been often scandalised at the Conduct of that great Council of Constance.  Par. 
The most part of the Catholics reject that Morality, and maintain we are obliged to keep Faith with all the World, without excepting Infidels and Heretics; otherwise there would never be any Treaty between the Turks and the Christians, that were real. It is pretended that the Council of Constance has not established this Maxim, That we are not obliged to keep with Heretics what we have promised them. John Hus had not safe Conduct from the Council, he had only the Emperors; and thereupon the Council in the Nineteenth Session declared, That any safe Conduct, granted by the Emperor, by Kings, and the other Secular Princes to Hereticks-could not do prejudice to the Catholic Faith, and to the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, and could not hinder from proceeding in the Tribunal of the Church, to the punishment of Heretics, who had provided themselves with such a safe Conduct. Thus the Council did not violate its promise, for it never gave any; neither did it oblige the Emperor to violate his Faith: But the Ecclesiastical Tribunal, that had not given any word, made John Hus his Process.  Prov. 
That distinction seems pleasant to me: I have heard say, that the Church does not put its hand into blood: When John Hus was convicted of Heresy by the Council, he was delivered without doubt to the secular Arm to be burnt. Those Secular Judges, were not they Imperial Judges? Thus the Emperor violated his safe Conduct, in permitting his Judges to put a Man to Death, to whom he had promised all security. But what do they say of Jerome of Prague, to whom the Council itself had given a safe Conduct, and yet was burnt?  Par. 
They say that the Council, in the safe Conduct that was given to Jerome of Prague, had inserted this Clause, Salva Justitia; that thus they had only promised to warrant Jerome of Prague from violence, and not from the arrests of Justice: But I avow to you that all this is not capable of justifying the Conduct of that Council. Neither does it pass in France for a Rule that they will follow. If they do not keep with the Hugonots all that has been promised them, it is not that they ground themselves upon the Morality and the Conduct of the Council of Constance. They do not pretend to departed from good Faith; they make profession of keeping the Edict of Nantes: Do you not see this at the Head of all the Declarations which are made against them? And now lately, in that by which the Catholics are forbidden to embrace the P. R. Religion, upon pain of Confiscation of goods, loss of Honour, and Banishment; though that never any Declaration was made that was more contrary to the Edicts of Nantes. We have one called Bernard, and another Lawyer of the City of Poitiers, called Tilleau, who have made large Commentaries upon the Edict of Nantes, for to make appear, that without formally revoking that Edict, the Hugonots may be deprived of all that Edict grants them, in giving to every one of the Articles Interpretations and Glosses that would never have been im●●●…ed: And these are the 〈…〉.  Prov. 
This is good for an●●…ing But after all, this does not satisfy the Conscience, and one is no less convinced of having violated his word: For those who obtain Arrests against the Hugonots, according to the Glosses of Bernard and Tilleau, are well persuaded that they are Glosses of Orleans, which overturn the Text. But do you know what I told my Huguenot, to stop his Mouth, upon these Infractions in the Edicts?  Par. 
Perhaps you told him, that one is not obliged to keep a word that has been extorted by violence; that the Hugonots have obtained those Edicts by main force: That ours were constrained to yield to the misery of the times; but that at present the King is in Right of Nulling those promises. Our Advocates plead daily thus at the Bars, and there are likewise grave Authors who writ it.  Prov. 
You have guessed right: but thereupon my Huguenot grew strangely passionate. Ah! this is, said he, a cruelty we cannot suffer. This is our strength, and they are so bold as to attack us in this part, as if it was our weak side. It is true, that we were armed some years before that the Edict of Nantes was made. But in favour of whom did we bear those Arms? It was to establish the Illustrious branch of Bourbon upon the Throne, that belonged to it. We shall ever be proud of having shed the purest of our Blood, to restore to France it's legitimate Kings there was a design of depriving it of. After this growing more cool, he made me an abridgement of the History of the League. He made me see that the House of Lorraine, in that time, aimed less at Heresy than at the Crown. He made me remember that from the time of Charles the 9th, the Princes of that House caused a Book to be Printed, for the proving their Genealogy, and to make appear that they were descended in a direct Line from the Second Race of our Kings, for the making way to the Crown. He acquainted me that there was at the same time a Concordat passed between the Duke of Guise, the Duke of Montmorency, and the Marshal de St. Andrew, which was called the Triumvirate. One of the Articles of that Concordat boar, in express terms, that the Duke of Guise should have in charge to deface entirely the name of the Family and Race of the Bourbons. Henry the Third, said he to me, could he be suspected of Heresy, or aider of Heretics? Never was any man more linked to the Catholic Church than he. Yet the House of Guise had sworn his ruin: They would have shaved him, which they highly threatened him with, and they one day writ upon the Chapel of the Bats, to the Augustins of Paris, these four French Verses.  
The Bones of those who here lie dead,  
Like a Burgundy Cross to thee are shown,  
Do make appear thy days are fled;  
And that thou shalt lose thy Crown.  
They are of the same sense with those two Latin Verses which were found set upon the Palace Dyal.  
Qui dedit ante duas, unam abstulit, altera nutas;  
Tertia tonsoris nunc facienda manu.  
The Faction of the House of Guise caused this to be done: And this poor Prince, after a thousand delays and troubles, resolved at length to make that execution so famous in our History; it is that of the Duke and Cardinal of Guise, who were executed at the States of Blois. That Prince must needs have seen his ruin approaching, and inevitable to come to that, since that he well foresaw that this blow would raise him so many storms, and give him so much trouble. Who knows not that the Faction of Rome, and of Spain, had a Design of rasing the House of Lorraine upon the Throne of France, for the excluding the House of Bourbon? In the year 1587. the Pope sent to the Duke of Guise a Sword engraven with flames, telling him by the Duke of Parma, that amongst all the Princes of Europe, it only belonged to Henry of Lorraine to bear the arms of the Church, and to be the Chief thereof. Almost all the Kingdom was engaged in that Spirit of revolt: The King found no other support, than the King of Navarre and of his Hugonots. It was Chastillon, the Son of the Admiral de Coligny, who saved the King from the hands of the Duke of Mayenne at Tours. This Chief of the League cried to him, retire you white Scarves; retire you Chastillon, it is not you we aim at, it is the Murderer of your Father. And in truth, Henry the Third, than Duke of Anjou, was Precedent in the Council when the Resolution was taken of making the Massacre of St. Bartholomew, in which the Admiral Coligny perished. But his Son, forgetting that injury, to save his King, answered those Rebels; You are Traitors to your Country; and when the Service of the Prince and State is concerned, I know how to lay under my feet all revenge and particular interest; he added, that after the Assassinate committed by the League, in the person of Henry the Third, Henry the Fourth was ready to see himself abandoned by his most faithful Servants, because of the Protestant Religion, which he made profession of; which appears by a Declaration that this Prince made in the form of an Harangue to the Lords of his Army, on the 8th day of August, 1589, in which he says, that he had been informed that his Catholic Nobility set a report on foot that they could not serve him, unless he made profession of the Roman Religion, and that they were going to quit his Army. Nothing but the firmness and fidelity of the Hugonots upheld this wavering Party. He must be, said my Gentleman, the falsest of men, who dissembles the Ardour and Zeal with which those of our Religion maintained that just Cause of the House of Bourbon, against the attempts of the League: And to prove, said he, that their interest was not the only cause of their fidelity, we must see what they did when Henry the Fourth turned Roman Catholic. It cannot be said but that they then strove to have a King of their Religion: However, there was not one who bated any thing of his Zeal and Fidelity, the King was peaceable possessor of the Crown, the League was beaten down, he was Master in Paris, he was reconciled to the Court of Rome when the Edict of Nantes was granted and published: Our Hugonots were no longer armed, nor in a condition of obtaining any thing by force of arms, since that the Change of Religion had reduced all the Roman Catholics to him, he would have been in a State of resisting their violence. It was the sole acknowledgement of the King, and of good Frenchmen, that obliged all France to give Peace to a Party that had shed their Blood with so much Zeal and Profession for the conserving the Crown, and the restoring it to its legitimate Heirs. I avow that we did our Duty; but are not those to be thanked who do what they ought? How is it possible that these things are at present worn out of the memory of men? I am certain, that if the King was made to read the History of his Grandfather, he would preserve some inclination for the Children of those who sacrificed themselves to the glory of his House.  Par. 
It cannot be denied that this Party has rendered great Services to Henry IV, and to the Crown. But the Question is, to know whether much be owing them upon that Account. Have not they been well paid, by a repose of so many years, which they have enjoyed since that time?  Prov. 
I said to my old Gentleman, after all, in the bottom you have no reason to complain: All that is done, is with design of Converting and Saving you; You ought to consider that it is the Interest of a State to have but one Religion: Every one knows, that the diversity of Religions is the source of Divisions, and that often it causes great troubles. You need only read the History of the last Age to be assured of it. He thereupon answered me, You open me a great field, permit me that I stop a little here, and that I make you see, first, That that is a misunderstood Zeal which endeavours at present the Conversion of the Protestants of France: in the second place, That this Design can never have the success that is expected: and in fine, that nothing is more opposite to the true Interests of the King, than the Conduct they at present hold with us. When I had promised him Audience, he spoke to me much to this purpose.  
First, As for the Zeal which moves, at present, so many People to make what they call Conversions, I must tell you, that I never conceived that real Conversions were to be procured by such means: They would save us you say, in good time, but let us be saved by honest means: They damn us by endeavouring to save us, even though the Religion to which they would bring us were good: They make us sell our Religion, they make a traffic of Souls, threaten and promises are employed; no employ is given, no grace granted, without adding to it for Condition the Change of Religion: The simple are surprised, the Children are taken away, they lay hold on the irreligion of certain people, either Libertines or Brutes, who having no sense of God, are ever ready to betray their Consciences for Money; In effect such people are paid, the King is put to great Charges to recompense the Converts, that is to say, for the entertaining persons who have neither Religion nor Piety. It is certain, that of a thousand which turn Catholics, there is perhaps not one who does it out of a motive of Conscience: The one has lost his suit at Law, and his Goods, and knows not where to put his head; another ready to lose an Employ which kept him alive, and which they would have taken from him, sacrifices his Conscience for the preservation of his Fortune. A Child angry with its Parents, who had punished it, revenges itself on them, by becoming of another Religion than theirs. A young Woman, who has lost her honour, goes to seek it in the strongest Party, and is willing to cover all her infamy with the vail of Conversion. If the Grandees be excepted, who are tempted by pleasures, and invited by hopes of some considerable advancement; these Converts are almost all such persons as are the dregs of the people, who are drawn in by motives worthy of the baseness of their Birth and their Courage: Let the holy Writ be read, and see if the Apostles and their Successors ever made use of suchlike means for the Converting Pagans and Infidels. And with all the pains that are taken, they will never succeed in the design of reducing by these kind of ways all the Protestants of France into the Roman Church. Great Progresses have been made for some late years, but do they believe that that will always last? A long Peace had retained in our Party a great number of the ungodly, who stuck to our Religion, because they did not find themselves better elsewhere. Those people who never had any Religion, make no difficulty now to change it; But our Party will purge it sell, and when it is drained of the ungodly ones, and when there is none amongst us but honest people who have persevered out of Principle of Conscience, it will be no longer seen that so many persons yield to promises and threaten; thus the numerous Conversions will cease. Moreover, you must know, Sir, that they take you to be very credulous, when they tell you of numerous conversions. There are five or six Bigots in France, who have erected themselves into Converters, keeping a Register of their Converts, and from time to time show the King these Registers; but they fill up these Catalogues after a strange manner. Besides, these Gentlemen Converters are played upon, and they are even willing to be cheated, that they may afterwards cheat his Majesty; because they know that he is liberal, even to profusion, to those who turn catholics. ●here are Rogues, who never having 〈◊〉 Protestants, not so much as by 〈◊〉 on, go and put themselves up●●●… the Catalogue of Converts, that they may be rewarded for their pretended Conversion. And in fine, where are these Conversions made? It is at Paris, and in some other great Cities of France, where there are Missions and Houses of propagation established, where the people are perpetually solicited by Promises and by Threaten. But in all the Provinces, and particularly in the Country, there are hardly any Conversions seen: perhaps within twenty years one might count ten or twelve thousand persons, who from Hugonots have turned Catholics; what is this to near two Millions of Souls of that Religion, there are in France, and when will they then have done?  
I know not, continued he, how they can hope to draw in so great a number of people; there is nothing more difficult to be forced out of the mind than sentiments of Religion, and nothing more difficult to be rooted out of a Country than a Sect that has had time to fortify itself there, and which is settled in its Opinions: Fire and Sword cannot extirpate it. Do we not see it proved in the Spanish Low-Countries? From the time that the exercise and profession of the Protestant Religion was forbidden there, ought it not to be extinguished? yet there are still found a great number of those People, whom they call Guises. And for my part, I cannot forbear believing, That the Doctrine and Opinions of the Albigenses have been preserved in Languedock, as a Fire hid under Cinders, from the time of those Albigenses even to Calvin's time. And it is to this that I attribute, that our Reformation has made greater Progresses in that Province, than in the others. All those who would make serious reflections upon what I have now said, will grant, that they will never compass the reducing the Protestants of France into the Roman Church: And thus all the pains that are taken, and all the ills they suffer, will only make them miserable and raise Malcontents.  Par. 
This is certainly all that your Orator could imagine for the maintaining his two first Propositions? I am very impatient to know what he could say for the maintaining the third, that the design of reuniting the Religions in France is against the Interests of the King and State; for it is a strange Paradox, common sense dictates that there is not a greater good in the World, both for Temporals and Spirituals, preferable to that of seeing in a State an unanimous consent in matters of Religion.  Prov. 
When my Gentleman was at the part I left you at, I perceived his forces failed him: You have put me, saith he, upon a Chapter that requires something more knowledge than I have. A Soldier is not obliged to know more than the History of his Age; but give me leave to bring you to morrow a man who will tell you more therein than I can.  Par. 
You was not sorry at this occasion of breaking off a Conversation that gave you time to breath.  Prov. 
You are in the right, I willingly granted him what he desired; we parted, and the day after at the hour we had appointed, I saw him enter, accompanied with an old Civil Lawyer of his Party; who in the sequel seemed to me a pretty able man. After the first Compliments, he began with telling me; You are generous, Sir, in permitting a man, who found himself too weak, to go seek for succours. This Gentleman has informed me of the subject of the Conversations you had with him. He told me where you stopped, and if you think fit, we will renew it in the same place.  Par. 
Methought he had done with proving, that they would never succeed in the design of reducing all the Hugonots of France into the bosom of the Church.  Prov. 
I thought so as well as you. But this Gown-man did not judge that the Soldier had said enough upon that point; wherefore he continued the matter thus. You must grant, Sir, that in the rise and fall of Heresies and Schisms, there is something Divine, and which passes our understanding: They are deceived, who imagine that the wounds of the Church are to be cured by Humane means. God for the punishing the coldness and negligence of the People and Pastors, suffers the Devil to sow Weeds in the field of the Church; and when his anger is appeased, he causes those Schisms to cease, and extinguishes those Heresies that his Justice had permitted; and he does it by means which he alone is Master of. It is true that thousands of Heresies which were in the first Ages, are no longer in being: Arrianisme, that made so much noise in the World, is quite gone. But to whom do we own this? It is neither to violence nor punishments: Good Emperors never made use of them; and the effusion of blood is contrary to the good Spirit of the Church. The Arrians indeed were persecutors, but were never persecuted. It is not by suchlike means as those by which they pretend at present to Convert the Hugonots of France, to wit, by depriving them of their Temples, and removing them from Charges, and doing them injustices, and violating the promises that were made them, and reducing them to die of Hunger: Humane will does the more strive against these sort of Oppositions. Neither was it by the way of Councils: For after the Decrees of the Council of Nice, of that of Sardica, and of several others that have been held against the Arrians, their Sect has multiplied and has reigned with more insolence than before; that Sect is insensibly extinguished of itself, and no one knows how, after having exercised its furies in Asia, Greece, and Africa, during more than two hundred years. But this Heresy being thus extinguished, to conclude from thence, that with the cares that might be taken, all other Heresies might be stifled, and affirm that a Schism cannot last long; that after having subsisted some time it must necessarily cease, is to be but little acquainted with the History of the Church. The Schism and Heresy of Nestorius, have not they still lasted to this day in the East, from the year 430, that is to say, for above twelve hundred years? The Schism of the Eutychians is of no later a date than that of the Nestorians, than about twenty or five and twenty years: for Eutyches and Dioscorus were condemned in the year 451. in the Council of Chalcedon; and from that time the followers of those two Men have filled all the East and the South, under the names of Eutychians, Severians, Auphalans, Armenians, Jacobites, Cophtes, and even of Abyssyns. For all these People who still at this day make the greatest part of the Asian and African Churches, adhere to the Schism of Eutyches. It is above seven hundred years that the Latins are in Schism with the Greeks, and all the pains that the Popes and Eastern Emperors have given themselves at several times, have not been able to extinguish this Schism. If Prudence, Cares and Vigilance have not been able to bring to pass the ruin of Sects that were not founded upon Truth, and who had violated Charity by their Separation; they ought not to hope to ruin the Party of the Reformed, which is supported by Truth, has purged the Church of so many errors, and has in no manner violated Charity, in separating itself from a Church, that chose rather to chase away from its bosom, than suffer any Reformation. The conclusion of all that great affair will make appear, that those who have Sworn the ruin of the Hugonots, fall upon God himself, which will not be for their advantage.  Par. 
This new Preacher carries it very high, but what did you answer to all this?  Prov. 
As he had more advantage over me, than I had over my Gentleman, I was obliged to suffer; the match being unequal. But I resolved to let the discourse continue, and to retain the principal things he should oppose me with, to be informed of by you. Is any thing of these Facts false, that this man laid, thus as I have recited them?  Par. 
No: But though the Facts that he told you be true, it is not certain that the Conclusions he draws from thence are very good; which we will examine at one time. But for the present I will not interrupt you.  Prov. 
Since you desire it, I will continue to tell you what I can remember of a Conversation, which appeared to me in some places something above my Capacity. I hear, continued our Civil Lawyer, that this Gentleman has obliged himself to prove to you, that the course they take at present in France, against our poor Protestants, is quite contrary to the Interests of the King and State. Give me leave, Sir, to represent you several things upon that point. First, is it not true, that it is against the King's Interests to depopulate the Kingdom. There are still in France, near two Millions of Souls of the Reformed Religion: If all these persons were away, their absence would certainly make a considerable Breach. There is no body but knows, that the force of States depends on the multitude of Inhabitants: It is this that makes the United Provinces so powerful. It is incredible that so little a State can resist so powerful Enemies, and carry its name to the end of the World; which only proceeds from the prodigious multitude of Inhabitants which are there. It is this that makes Arts flourish there, Necessity being the Mother of Industry. It is the cause of the Commerce, because the Territory being too little to nourish so many Men, they have been obliged to go seek to the very ends of the World, the necessaries that their own Country could not furnish them with. And in seeking wherewith to keep them alive, and that they might not be famished, address has made them find out immense Riches. The King knows very well, that the force of a Prince consists in the multitude of Subjects. Wherefore he has made several Declarations in favour of those to whom God grants great Families, and who thereby the more contribute to populate the Kingdom. He has ordered, that those Victuallars who have have two Children, should enjoy exemption from all Taxes, Imposts, Subsidies, Collects, and quartering of Soldiers. It is his will, that the Nobles who have the same number of living Children, have two thousand Livers of yearly pension out of the public Revenues; and for the exciting young people to marry themselves betimes, he order by another Declaration, that the young married shall not be subject, till the age of five and twenty years, to any public Charges. It is to this intent, that such divers Declarations have been made by his Majesty, which forbidden all his Subjects to leave the Kingdom, and go inhabit elsewhere. By all these Courses the King would get and keep Subjects. But his Majesty by the Declarations which have been made against the Reformed, has lost twenty times more Subjects than he can have gained, or kept by those other ways, which his prudence, or that of his Ministers had suggested to him. It will be made appear to him, if he pleases, that within these fifteen years, his Declarations against the Hugonots, have driven away of them out of France, above sixty or fourscore thousand. All the Frontiere Provinces of England, Holland, and Germany, as Normandy, Campagne, and Picardy, are already sensible of this; particularly the City of Amiens. Since the Temple has been taken from the Hugonots of that City, it is certain, that the most part of their Merchants have retired themselves into foreign Countries, and that they have carried with them, at least twelve or fourteen hundred thousand Livers of Riches out of the Kingdom, and which will never return into it. In case they would but make the least attention upon this point, it would appear, that it is impossible, but that the Kingdom will be deserted by this Course. It is certain, that all the Reformed who lose their Goods and Estates, by what is called the disgraces of Fortune, do quit the Kingdom; because that their Religion hinders them from recovering themselves by any means. In chasing away all those who bear the Arms of the Guards du Corpse, of the Musqueteers, and the Gendarmes, and all the King's Household; in taking the Commissions from several thousands of Commissaries, who lived upon their Commssions, in neglecting the Officers, and refusing them advancement: In a word, in taking away, as they do, the means of subsisting from an infinite number of Hugonots, who cannot subsist of themselves; they are driven out of the Kingdom; and all foreign Countries are seen covered with Frenchmen, who seek for employ, and the means of subsisting, that are refused them in their own Country. I looked upon it as a certain thing, that of 50 thousand, that the Rigour which is exercised against us, reduces into this estate, there are not five hundred who turn Catholics, all the others are as many lost Subjects for the King. They are much deceived, if they believe that little is lost in losing people who have hardly any thing. For it is certain, that the Armies of a State are almost wholly composed of such sort of people; It is the industry of such persons who keep up Commerce and Arts. There is a City upon the Frontiers of Champagne, which formerly belonged to the Dukes of Bovillon, touching which I am informed, they make great brags to the King, that when he took possession of it, that City was almost wholly Protestant's, and that at present the number of the Catholics much surpasses that of the others. But they tell not the King what was told me; that the severity with which they treated the Reformed, has obliged them to retire; that the Catholics which they fill the City with are Beggars and poor Wretches: That of a good City, they have made of it a retreat for people who have nothing, and who are a charge to the Commonalty; that those Catholics the City is filled with, by expelling the ancient Inhabitants, come from the Burroughs and neighbouring Villages. Thus the King gains no new Subjects, though the City gains new Inhabitants; and he loses all the good Subjects, who go away and seek for repose elsewhere, and carry with them what Riches they have. The same thing happens in the Provinces, bordering upon Swizzerland and Geneva: They are not sensible yet of this diminution, but they will one day find it. Besides, they may assure the King, that all those zealous Convertours, who brag to him, that they increase the Catholic Church, will much contribute to desert his Kingdom. It is certain, that of those who change Religion to become Catholics, there is not the fourth part, I dare say the sixth, who persevere in the Religion that they have embraced: They changed out of Interest, Lightness, Fear, Love, or some other passion which surprised them. When passion is cooled, reason returns, those people are ashamed of their change, and their Consciences become awake. And as the most part have as little benefit in France, as in another State, it little imports them where they are, and they go away to avoid the Rigour of the Edicts against Relapses.  
At that place our Doctor stopped a little, appeared pensive, and thus renewed. I am going to enter upon a nice Subject; I have no mind to offend any one, but I cannot forbear telling the truth. We are all good Frenchmen; but the King has much more interest to preserve his Huguenot Subjects than all the others, since it is the only Party of whose fidelity he can be secured. Give me leave, Sir, to handle this point more particularly. it is certain, that the great disputes that France can have, are with Spain and with the Emperor: There is not a Family in Europe, that can give ombrage to that of France, besides the House of Austria. Since Charles the 5th, that House has ever aspired to the Universal Monarchy. It is true that the King has brought it very low at present, and made it fall very much from its High pretensions. But in fine, it is the Course of the world, which is humbled to day to be raised again to morrow. The House of Austria has raised itself from a very low Degree; it still reigns in Spain, Germany, and Italy, that is to say, almost over the half of Europe; and when these large territories become sensible of their force, and to be animated by a great Chief; they may put Fance as hard to it as they did formerly. It is therefore certain, that the great Interest of our State, is to be always on the Guard on the side of the House of Austria, and deprive it of its Allies, and weaken its Subjects, and manage Alliances, and form Adherences against it, and extirpate out of France all that might favour it, and entertain there all that is most opposite to it. And this already makes appear how much interest the King has not to ruin a Party, that can never enter into Intelligence with Spain. The House of Austria has conserved so great a fury against the Protestants, and the Protestants conserve so much resentment for the violences that they have suffered by the Princes of that House, that those two Parties are absolutely irreconcilable. It is not the same thing with the other Parties of the State. It is true, that there is some natural antipathy between a Frenchman and a Spaniard; but you are too well acquainted with the History of our age, Sir, to be ignorant, that notwithstanding those antipathies the Interests of the Grandees has often made such great engagements with Spain, that they had like to have ruined the State. The History of the League, the entry of the Duke of Parma into France, and the intentions that the wicked Frenchmen than had, to receive a King foom the hands of the Spaniards, are Warrants for what I advance. I could say something more new, and add several stories of our Grandees, who dissatisfied with the Court, put themselves into the Spanish Party, made Treaties with that Crown, and would have been of very ill consequence to the Kingdom, if the preserving Genius of the state had not fenced off its effects. But though all the rest of France should enter into such a mind, the Hugonots Party alone would be a Barriere to the State, and would shed to the very last drop of its blood that it might not fall under the Dominion of Spain.  Par. 
The King, in the State he is, has little need of keeping measures with any one for the becoming formidable to the House of Austria, he who makes all Europe tremble, and carries the terror of his Arms even into Africa.  Prov. 
That is true: But wise Princes as the King is have longer prospects; they do not only consider themselves and their present State, they consider Posterity and the future, and take their Sureties against all that may happen. Be it as it will, our Civil Lawyer proceeding farther upon the matter told me, Let me beg of you, Sir, that we may speak freely. Is it not true, that the Court of Rome has engagements infinitely greater with Spain and the House of Austria, than with France? Spain renders submissions to the See of Rome, that France does not render it; Spain does not talk of the Liberties of its Church, as they talk in France of the Liberties of the Gallicane Church, as these Liberties pass at Rome for Heresies, or attempts against the Holy See. Spain is submitted to the Tribunal of the Inquisition, France rejects it, even in what it has of Good. In fine, Spain keeps Faith and does Homage to the Court of Rome, for one part of its States, as the Kingdoms of Naples and Arragon; and on the contrary the Kings of France will not depend on the Pope for Temporality, and hold only their State of God and their Swords. In one word, these engagements between Spain and the Court of Rome are such, that this Court does not at all balance, when it is to take the French or Spanish side; and never kept itself neuter, but when it feared the Forces of France. Wherefore the Italian Party, and the Spanish Party, are to be looked upon as the same Party. The King of Spain is Master of most part of Italy: The Popes are often Spaniards by Birth, and they are ever so by inclination; the Spanish Faction amongst the Cardinals is ever the most numerous. Thus the great Interest of the King and of France, is to be ever upon the Guard against the Italian Faction, which can easily become Spanish. Now this Italian Party is not only in Spain and in Italy; it is in Germany, in France, and every where else; it is the Body of the Clergy. One cannot be ignorant of the engagements that all the Roman Catholic Clergy has necessarily with the Court of Rome. This Court is the Head, the Clergy is the Body, the ecclesiastics and Monks are the Members, and all these Members move by the Orders of the Head. Again, I have no Design to chocque the Gentlemen Clergy, whose persons I respect; I do not doubt but that they have good French Hearts; But in fine, they have their Maxims of Conscience; they are of a Religion, and they must follow its Principles. Now the Principles of their Religion binds them to the Holy See, and its preservation preferably to all things; moreover, Interest makes illusion in Hearts and Minds. Their Interest obliges them to take the Pope's part, who is their Preserver and Protector; and what they do out of interest, they persuade themselves that they do it out of Conscience. First, it may be said of the Monks, that all the Houses they have in France, are as many Citadels that the Court of Rome has in the Kingdom. Those great Societies have withdrawn themselves from the Dominion of the Bishops, they depend immediately on the Holy See; they have all their Generals of Orders at Rome; and those Generals who are Italians and Spaniards, are the Soul of the Society; they are obliged to follow their Opinions and their Orders; the Italian Divinity is the Divinity of the Cloisters. Thus the King may reckon, that all the Monks look upon him as the Pope's Subject, as being liable to be Excommunicated, his Kingdom put under an Ecclesiastical Censure, his Subjects dispensed and released from the Oath of Fidelity, and his States given by the Pope to another Prince. And every time that this happens, they will believe themselves obliged, out of Conscience, to obey the Pope. If in those Orders of Monks there happens to be some particular One, who follow other Principles, it is certain that they are in no Number, and do not hinder that the Body of the Monks is absolutely in the Interests of the Court of Rome, and by consequence in that of Spain. Thus you see already a considerable Party of whose Fidelity the Kings of France cannot be assured. And what is this Party One may say that it is all France: for the begging Monks and the Jesuits are Masters of all the Consciences; they are Confessors, they are Directors, they persuade what they will to those that are devoted to them. The House of Bourbon ought not to doubt of this truth, if it never so little calls to mind the endeavours that were used by the Monks for the forcing from it the Crown, when the Race of the Valois came to fail. It is against this so considerable Party that the State ought to take its Precautions, in preserving that other Party which can never be of intelligence with this; it is that of the Reformed. History tells us how impossible it is to be long without having Disputes with the Court of Rome. It is always attempting, and one is obliged to defend one's self against its enterprises. It is capable of setting great Engines a going, of making Engagements and Alliances: It had twenty times like to have ruined Germany, it has dethroned great Emperors, it has likewise caused great troubles in France, and one cannot be too secure against its ambition.  Par. 
I fancy that your Hugonot's Advocate would not spare the rest of the Clergy, and that he endeavoured to prove that we can be no more assured of their Fidelity than of that of the Religious.  Prov. 
What you have already heard may make you easily divine that, for the giving the more force to what he had to say against our Divines, he prevented what might have been objected. If you understood these matters, Sir, said he to me, you could tell me that our Clergy of France teach a Divinity wholly different from that of Rome; that all make profession of holding for the Liberties of the Gallicane Church; the principal Articles of which are, 

1. That the King of France cannot be Excommunicated by the Pope.  
2. That an Ecclesiastical Censure cannot be laid upon their Kingdom.  
3. That it cannot be given to others.  
4. That the Pope has nothing to do with the Temporality of Kings.  
5. That he is not Infallible.  
6. That he is inferior to the Council.   These, you would tell me, are the Maxims of the Sorbonne, that have often censured the contrary Propositions. This Divinity is maintained by the Authority of the Parliaments, who have often declared the Bulls of the Pope abusive, null, scandalous and impious, and have appealed from the Execution of these Bulls, when they found them contrary to the Liberties of the Gallicane Church. The Court of Parliament assembled at Tours, during the League, caused the Bulls of Excommunication to be burnt by the hands of the Executioner, that had been published against Henry the Third and Henry the Fourth. This is all sine and magnificent, if you please, but these fair appearances have no stock; I do not speak of the Divinity of the Parliaments, which is that of the Politicians; I speak of the Divinity of the Clergy.  
Once more, added he, I do not at all doubt of the Fidelity of the Divines of France to their King; but they shall never persuade me, that this Fidelity and Zeal for their Prince is without exception; and I make no other exception against it than what they themselves make: Will you hear they themselves speak? Read the Harangue that Cardinal du Perron made to the third Estate, in the name of all the Clergy of France, in the States, 1616, and remember that it is not the Cardinal du Perron who speaks, it is the Clergy of France assembled in a Body who speak by the mouth of that Cardinal. All France seized with an horror of the two horrible Parricides that had been committed in the persons of the two late Kings, both of them assassinated out of a false Zeal of Religion, would draw up a Formulary of Oath, and establish a Fundamental Law of the State, which all the Subjects were to swear to; and this Law bore, that every one should make Oath of ac-acknowledging and believing, that our Kings for their Temporalities do not depend on any one soever but on God; that it is not lawful for any cause soever to assassinate Kings; that even for causes of Heresy & of Schism Kings cannot be Deposed, nor their Subjects Absolved from their Oath of Fidelity, nor upon any other pretext soever. This Law, methinks, is the security of Kings, this is a Doctrine which all the Hugonots are ready to sign with their Blood. What did the Clergy of France do thereupon? It formally opposed that Law; (divers Works of Cardinal du Perron, p. 600 and following) they were willing to acknowledge the Independency of Kings, in regard of the Temporalty; they consented that Anathema should be pronounced against the assassinates of Kings. But they would never pass the last Article; that for what cause soever it was, a King cannot be Deposed by the Pope, stripped of his States, and his Subjects absolved from the Oath of Fidelity. He who spoke for them, alleged all the examples of Emperors and of Kings, who had been Deposed and Excommunicated by Popes, upon account of refusing Obedience to the Holy See, & approved them; he alleged the example of St. Vrban the Second, who Excommunicated Philip the First, and laid an Ecclesiastical Censure upon his Kingdom, because he had repudiated his Wife Bertha, Daughter of a Count of Holland, to Marry Bertrade Wife of Foulques Count d' Anjou, then still alive. He made use of the testimony of Paul Emile, who said, that Pope Zacharias dispensed the French from the Oath of Fidelity that they had made to Chilperick. These two Princes were not Heretics; yet the Clergy of France approved their having been stripped of their States by the Popes; which makes appear, that the Clergy in the bottom judges that the Pope has Right to lay an Ecclesiastical Censure upon the Kingdom of France, and to depose its Kings for any other cause as well as that or Heres●e. Is it not to abuse the World, to confess on one side that the Temporalty of Kings does not depend on the Pope, and establish on the other, that the Pope may in certain occasions Interdict these Kings, Excommunicate them, and Absolve their Subjects from the Oath of Fidelity? In sine, this is the result of that famous Opinion of the Clergy of France. So that if Christians are constrained to defend their Religion and their lives against Heretic Princes or Apostates, from their Fidelity to whom they have been Absolved, the Politic Christian Laws does not permit them any thing more than what is permitted by Military Laws, and by the Right of Nations, to wit▪ open War, and not Assassination and Clandestine Conspiracies: that is to say, that when a Pope has decl●●ed a Prince deprived of his state's, his Subjects may set up the Standard of Rebellion, declare War against him, refuse him Obedience, and kill him if they can meet him, provided it be with arms in their hand, and by the ordinary course of War. I cannot comprehend how one can be secured of the Fidelity of those who hold such like Maxims. For in fine, Kings are not insallible, and if they happen to do any thing that the Court of Rome judges worthy of Excommunication and Interdiction, they are Kings without Kingdoms and Subjects, according to our Clergy of France, as well as according to the Divines of Italy. But perhaps that the Sorbonne, which is the Depository of the French Divinity, does not receive these Maxims so fatal to the safety of Kings: Let us see what it has done. In the Month of December, 1587., because that Henry the Third, for the security of his Person and of his State, made a Treaty with the Resisters, or the Germane Protestants, the Sorbonne, without staying for the Decisions of Rome, made a secret Result, which said, That the Government might be taken from Princes, who were not found such as they ought to be, as the administration from a suspected Tutor: This was known by the King, he sent for the Sorbonne some days after, and complained of it. After the death of the Princes of Guise, which happened at Blois, the Sorbonne did much worse: they declared and caused to be published in all parts of Paris, That all the People of that Kingdom were Absolved from the Oaths of Fidelity that they had sworn to Henry of Valois, heretofore their King: they razed his name out of the public Prayers, and made known to the People that they might with safe Conscience unite, arm and contribute to make War against him, as a Tyrant. If I would add to that the Story that I know this Gentleman told you concerning the Death of the late King of England, we should find that the Sorbonne has ever been of the same Opinion. Let things be told as they are, every time that our Kings shall have affairs that will carry them to extremity against the Court of Rome, the Clergy of France will suppress the discontents while that affairs go well for the Court of France; but if things turn otherways, the dictates of our Divines against the King will not fail to break out. Every sincere person will allow, that it has never been otherwise than so, and that it will be always thus; which may be observed in the very lest disputes. By example, in that the King has now lately had with the Pope upon the account of the Regality and of the Vrbanists, the public has seen a Letter from the Clergy Addressed to the King when he departed to visit the Frontiers of the Low-Countries; In that Letter these Gentlemen promise the King, let whatever be the issue of his Disputes with the Pope, they will be always inviolably fixed to his Majesty's Interests. But we know from good hands, that the Archbishop of Paris and the Sieur Rose Secretary of the Cabinet, are the sole Authors of that Letter; the Bishops have almost openly disavowed it. And this makes it apparent enough, that in this Dispute they were of the Pope's side. Must it not then be confessed, that it is the King's Interest to preserve the only Party that makes Oath of Fidelity to him without exception and without reserve, that can never have engagements contrary to his Service, either with Spain or the Court of Rome, or with the revolted Clergy favouring the Enemies of the State? And it is well known, that in the time of Henry the Third, while that all the Corporations of the Kingdom were in an actual Rebellion against their Prince, the Huguenot was the only one which remained Loyal. If it was necessary to add any thing more, pursued our Civil Lawyer, for to prove that it is the King's Interest to protect the Reformed in his States, one might say that the Alliances that have been made with Foreign Protestants have not been disadvantageous to the State. Since the year, 1630, its engagements with England, Holland, Sweden, and the Elector of Brandenburg, have been a great help towards its humbling the House of Austria. Cardinal Richlieu successfully employed the King of Sweden, for to punish the pride to which that House was mounted after the defeat of the Palatine House that had accepted the Crown of Bohemia. And it is well enough known, that the Protection that the King gave the Protestants in his Territories, facilitated those Foreign Engagements and Alliances. Thus our Orator ended and made a pause at this place.  Par. 
He has forgot a great Article, That which is against the Peace of a State is ever against his Interests who governs it: Nothing is more incompatible with Peace, than diversity of Religions.  Prov. 
He did not forget it, but he thought he had said enough for one time, and referred what he had more to say till the next day. This morning sour Gentleman returned, and as what was said is fresher in my memory, perhaps I shall give you a more exact account. I know very well, continued our Huguenot Civil Lawyer, that I am to Dispute to day against a pompous Maximed that has all appearances for it, that covers itself with the habit of Devotion, and against which the Bigots say one cannot declare without impiety. But provided we be heard, and that we are permitted to distinguish and explain ourselves, we shall appear nothing less than impious. If it be said that nothing is more desirable by a good Prince, than to see all his Subjects live in the true Religion; we grant it; if it be added, that for the reuniting minds, and bringing them all to think the same thing in matters that may be controverted, he ought to employ all the means that Christian Morality suggests and approves; we will likewise avow it. But all this can neither make us afraid, nor do us any hurt. Moral Christianity does not suffer that ill be done, that good may come on it: It will never Counsel the Reunion of Religion, by violence and breaking of Words. If it be added, that this Maxim is as true in Policy, as it is in Morality; and that it is the interest of a State, for its Conservation, to have but one Religion, in such a manner, that it cannot be great, flourishing and peaceable, while that Diversity of Religions are suffered and tolerated, we shall say that nothing can be advanced more false. First of all, those Gentlemen who maintain that Maxim with so much confidence, do not think of what they do; they do not perceive that they make an Apology for all persecuting Princes. If it be so, the Pagan Emperors had reason to arm against the Christians, and to set whole Rivers of their blood a flowing. The Christians separated themselves from their Society; they looked upon others as Enemies of God, and as the Devils Subjects; and good Policy, according to the Maxim that is taught our Kings, cannot permit that such people should be suffered to live. If these Gentlemen might be believed, the Grand Signior is but very ill Counselled, to tolerate in his Territories the Christian Religion; he could not be blamed if he let lose his Janissaries upon the Christians, and caused all their throats to be cut.  Par. 
That's a pretty fancy, to compare a Christian Prince, who is of the true Religion, to a Pagan Prince or Infidel. It is a Crime to persecute the true Religion; but it is a work of great merit to extirpate Heresy.  Prov. 
Stay, and you shall know what he told me thereupon. There is not a man, said he, but who's persuaded that he's of the true Religion. The Grand Signior believes himself in the way of Salvation, as the most Christian King persuades himself he is. Thus according to the principles of Morality, his Conscience order him do all that is possible for him to save his people, by forcing them to become of a Religion, which he believes to be the only way to Salvation. But you must especially take notice, that we examine this Maxim according to the Rules of Policy. Now, according to these Rules, the Grand Signior is as well obliged to endeavour the Peace and Preservation of his Territories, as the Christian Princes are to endeavour the Preservation of theirs. To refute this Maxim, I will only mention that so common saying, Divide & Impera; Nourish Division, and you will easily remain Master. When there are several Parties in a State, provided that the Prince espouses none of them; that Division obliges each of the Parties to hold fast to the Prince's interests, for the having his Favour and Protection. If one of the Parties gets much ground of the other; and that the Prince likewise happens into this strongest Party, provided that he hinders the weakest from being oppressed by the strongest, it is clear that he cannot fail to be beloved and considered by all his Subjects. He would be beloved by the strongest party, because he himself was of it; the fear of losing him would make them manage him. The weakest party would have love and acknowledgement for a Prince, whom it was indebted to for its Tranquillity by the Protection it received. Add to all this, that such people as are of contrary Religions cannot enter into the same Rebellion. Thus the Prince is always sure to have a faithful Party. It is ever difficult that, in a State divided thus, great Conspiracies can be contrived; for the one party continually watches the paces of the other. [Plutarch's Treatise of Isis and Osiris.] The Ancients have observed to us, that in Egypt there was almost as many Religions; as Cities, because that they had different Animals for Gods. At Memphis they adored the Ox Apis, at Leontopolis the Lion, at another place a Wolf, in another City a Sheep, at another a Goat. And they were of so contrary Religions, that some eat the Animals that their Neighbours adored, with design to vex them, and turn their Religion into Ridicule. [Diodorus, his 1. Book of his Bibliothiques.] The Kings of Egypt nourished this Division, and found that it was the security of the State, because that it hindered Conspiracies. I leave it to Politicians to push the Speculations farther that may be made upon it, and content myself with the experience, by which I make appear that it is very false, that a State cannot be both peaceable and happy, when it tolerates several Religions. It would be requisite to make the History of the World, to say all that can be said upon it: We should speak of those great Empires, which included so many several Nations, and full as many Religions. It is certain, that one Paganism was more different from the other, than the Sects of Christians are different from one another; yet the Romans did not fail to render their Empire glorious and flourishing, and it was never the Diversity of Religions that troubled its Peace. It has been observed, that they carried away the Gods and Spoils of the Nations whom they rendered Tributary, and that they adopted those strange Gods, and built them Temples in Rome. So that they nourished this Diversity of Religions, even in the very bosom and Capital of the Empire, without the Peace being any way altered. If from the Conduct of the Pagans we pals to that of the Christian Emperors, we shall see therein the same thing: That is they have tolerated the Diversity of Sects amongst the Christians, without prejudicing the good of the State. The Novatians had their Churches, their Bishops and their Priests, even in Constantinople that was the Capital of the Empire. They were not only tolerated there, but were likewise esteemed. Constantine did the honour to their Bishop Acesius, to call him to the Council of Nice, and to ask his Opinion upon the Decree that had been made, touching what day Easter ought to be celebrated upon. And when he the Great Theodosius took the Resolution to try to reconcile all the Sects by amicable conferences, he Communicated his Design to Nectarius, Bishop of the Catholics in Constantinople: Nectarius, who had not been brought up in Ecclesiastical Affairs, consulted able persons, and amongst others, he did the honour to Agelius, who was then Bishop of the Novatians, to ask him his advice. Agelius had a Deacon called Sisinnius, able and knowing, to whom he gave Commission to confer with Nectarius; and this Sisinnius gave thereupon such Counsel, as was approved by Nectarius and the Emperor. But as concerning Theodosius, they object against us the Conduct of that Great Prince, in regard of the Arrians; they have composed his History, they have put it into the hands of the Children of our Kings; they give them for a Model of their Conduct with us, that of Theodosius with the Heretics of his time. In truth they do us a great deal of honour, to compare us with the Arrians, who were sworn Enemies of Jesus Christ, and by Consequence of the Christian Religion; and who had persecuted the Church, even to effusion of blood: Yet we receive the six first General Councils, and detest all the Heresies that the Church has condemned. I leave equitable people to judge if such sentiments as these are fit to he inspired into young Princes. I add, that Theodosius had promised nothing to the Arrians, he had not made any Treaty with them, nor had he given them any Edicts. And in fine, I say, that though Theodosius made some severe Declarations against the Arrians; the most part of them were not executed. Socrates, his Eccl. Hist. l. 5. c. 2. The Conduct of Gratian a most Christian Emperor, who gave liberty of Conscience and exercise to all the Sects, except the Eunomians, Manicheans and Phonitians, merits to be considered, for it is the Model wise Princes ought to regulate themselves by. That is to say, that when they are obliged to tolerate Divers Sects, their toleration ought not to reach to those who ruin the very foundations of Christianity, as the Eunomians, or Arrians, the Manicheans, and the Photinians did, who were what the Socinians are at present, I could pursue the History of the Empire, and make appear how in the following ages, the Religion was shared into several Branches, by the Schisms of Nestorius, of Eutychus, and of the Monothelites, which filled the East; and yet the Empire kept still standing. It was not those Schisms in Religion, that gave Birth to that terrible Empire of the Saracens that called in the Turks from the North, and caused those Inundations of the Barbarous Nations, by which the Empire has been ruined. They will tell me that those Schisms in Religion have often caused very great dissorders in the State, I avow it. But from whence did that proceed? Because that one party would have oppressed the other, and for that the Emperors and the Grandees of the Empire maintained those several Parties, and armed them the one against the other. Thus the Toleration of several Religions was far from causing any disorder, the troubles were only occasioned by their not suffering Diversity of Opinions. If the Eutycheans would have tolerated those that were Orthodox, and that the Orthodox would have totolerated the Eutycheans, the Peace of the State had not been in the least altered. It becomes those Gentlemen to object the State France was in in the last age, for to prove that the toleration of several Religions in a State is very dangerous. From whence proceeded our Wars of Religion in France? Did they not arise from the violence that the Catholic Party would have used upon the Protestant Party? If they would have suffered one another, and if the Princes who governed the State had not conspired to ruin the Protestants by Sword, and by Fire, all the State would have been in a perfect Tranquillity. All this that I have said does not hinder me from avowing, that there are occasions in which a Prince may employ the Rigour of the Edicts, for to hinder the diversity of Religions; which is at the first Birth of Schisms. But when a Schism is once form, when a Sect is become numerous and strong, it is to go against the Spirit of the Gospel to employ either violence or deceit to remedy this evil: especially when a Prince who mounts upon the Throne, finds that diversity of Religions established and tolerated: I maintain that for the Peace of the State he is obliged to continue that toleration which those Sects are in possession of. The United Provinces of the Low Countries can learn us, what ill the diversity of Religions produces in a State when it is tolerated. They are daily reproached for including in their bosom all the Religions of Europe. I do not examine at present if that so general toleration for all sorts of Sects is according to the principles of Religion; I am not very much of that Opinion. But I boldly maintain, that, according to the Rules of Policy, this general toleration is what makes the strength and Power of that Republic: it is that which invites thither so great a number of people; and it is what keeps up Trade there. All those Sects have different Interests in regard of Religion; but all conspire to the good and preservation of a State in which they enjoy a repose that they would not find elsewhere. In fine, since it is the Religion of France that is in dispute, let us draw our Examples from France itself. Had not the State like to have perished in the last age by the fury of those who were resolved to suffer but one Religion in France? Never was this State so glorious, as since the Peace was reestablished by the Edicts of Pacification. Show me an age in our History, in which France was so glorious and so Triumphing as within these fourscore years; that is to say, since that the two Religions were obliged to suffer one another by the disposition of the Edicts? After that Henry the Fourth had pacified the affairs of Religion, it may be said that he had all manner of advantage over his Enemies. When Cardinal de Richlieu had finished what he designed against the Protestants, in depriving them of their Cities of Surety, and that he had restored Peace to them, he raised the glory of the Monarchy by the Alliance with the Swedes higher than it had ever been. The diversity of Religions that is still in France does not hinder our glorious Monarchy from being the admiration of all the Universe, and the terror of all Europe. In a word, the State will never come to any trouble by the diversity of Religions, as long as the Protestants are protected and tolerated. As long as the King pleases he will have in them Subjects of an inviolable Fidelity; and for the least kindness he has for them, he might draw from their veins to the very last drop of their blood for his Service. It was thus that our Conversations ended. For my part I was not versed enough in Ancient and Modern History to answer all this. You would oblige me, Sir, to tell me your thoughts upon it.  Par. 
These Gentlemen took time to think of their Difficulties before they proposed them to you, it is just that we do the like to think of our Answers. It is enough for this day that we have heard them.  
The End of the Dialogues.   

SInce that these Dialogues were finished, there fell into the Author's hands a Letter from the Sieur Pelisson a famous Convert, and a more famous Convertour: It was believed to be worthy of the Public curiosity, and that nothing was more proper to make appear how Apostolical the manner is that is made use of for the Converting of Souls. Nothing more resembles the Conduct of the Apostles, who went from place to place spreading the Riches of Grace to the contempt of those of Nature, than the Charity of these Gentlemen, who spread every where the Riches of Nature, to invite men to Grace. Versailles the 12. of June, 1677.  
Sir, To answer the Letter you did me the honour to write me on May the 21th. besides what M. de le Tour Dalier sends you, I send you a Copy of a Memorial, that I have sent to some of my Lords, the Bishops of Languedock, upon such Informations as they required of me. You will therein see, Sir, that I have proposed you as an example to all the others, being but what you merit; and in the second place, without limiting any sum, you may with the same Oeconomy, and in the Conditions of this Memorial, proceed as far as you please, as well at Pragelas, as in all the rest of your Diocese, in point of little Gratifications to the New Converts.  
M. Dalier has took upon him to send you a Letter of Credit for the taking up those little sums which may become great ones, according as you shall have occasion; and for my part I hearty wish, Sir, to discharge several of your Bills of Exchange, not only for three or for six thousand Livers, but for ten and for fifteen, and for as much as you please. I shall not be so happy as to have reason to complain of their being too much. If you ask me, Sir, how this agrees with the smallness of our Stocks, and the design of endeavouring the same through all the Kingdom; I shall place at the beginning of my Story that which made the Widows Oyland Flower increase, and which multip lied the five Loaves. Besides, all Conversions are not made in a day: that while the time runs, the stock advances: that these good successes have made the King determine to dispose of St. Germains and Clunie only to these sort of good works; that Credit will be found to make ordinary advances at need upon these Abbeys: that if we saw so great success and so much of stock engaged in the future, we might stop. or demand other helps from the King which his Piety would hardly refuse the furnishing, without reckoning those of which some overtures have been made to him that he has not rejected.  
As for M. de Gilliers, I do not see in your Letter, Sir, if he is to be Converted, or is already a Convert; in the first case I can charge myself with proposing to the King what you shall judge most convenient, in making it known to me more precisely. In the second case, that is to say, if he or his Family have been Converted for some time, you must get some other to speak to the King than I who have solemnly renounced, and as by Contract, not to propose to him on my part any other expense than that of making Conversions.  
I admire, Sir, the work that God has wrought by your hands, and by M. Dalier, for your General Hospital. I fancy it to be as much as the taking of Valenciennes, Cambray, and St. Omers. I shall have the honour to write more particularly to you at the little Assembly that Whitsun holidays has dispersed, insomuch that I have not yet seen the Chief Precedent, who returns but to morrow from Bas●ville. Be pleased, Sir, to continue to honour me with some part of your favour: and if you will do me a great deal of good, and a very great kindness, with some part likewise in your most secret Prayers, be it in the Cell, or be it at the Altar. I am with all possible respect.  
Sir, Your most humble, and most obedient Servant Pelisson Fontanier.   

A POSTSCRIPT.  
THere has been a great number of Conversions made in the Valleys of Pragelas, by the Cares of M. de Grenoble, and the Company of the Propagation of the Faith in the same City, and by some Missionaries of the Company of Jesus: Insomuch that without other distribution than about two thousand Crowns in all, sent at several times, there are are well certified Lists of seven or eight hundred persons returned to the Church. Some of my Lords the Bishops having done me the honour to write me word, that they likewise saw several Conversions that might be made in their Dioceses, if moneys were sent them. I made answer by order from the King, that it was not possible to send Moneys into so many places; but that every one should labour on his side, and give notice of the Conversions that were to be made in the considerable Families, that the King might think of it and provide accordingly: Neither should any occasion be let slip for the converting the Families of the people, when it costs but little, as had been seen in those Valleys, that for two, three, four or five Pistols, very numerous Families had been gained. I even told them they might mount to an hundred Francs, without my needing to have any New Order from his Majesty to acquit the Bills of Exchange that should be drawn upon me. This was very religiously performed in regard of those to whom I had written.  
I said the same thing to M. Potel Secretary of the Commands of the Duke of Vernuil, at his going to the States of Languedock, that he might make it known to my Lords the Bishops who should be assembled there; and I have since confirmed him by Letters, and so much the more willingly, being the King, excited by the good success, had lately made a new Fond, which is the third of all the Oeconomats' expedited or to be expedited since the Month of December last, which he only designs for this use, which will not begin to produce before the beginning of the next year: but from which may be hoped a perpetual succour for the future. Things are in the same state, and though that this Fond is not yet come, means will be found to pay the Bills that shall be drawn upon me for that effect. But the following conditions must be observed.  

1. That they be not unknown persons, or little known, and without Character, who draw those Bills of Exchange upon me.  
2. That every one be accompanied with an abjuration certified by the Bishop of the Diocese. M. l'Intendant, or any other person in a considerable Employ, and with an Acquittance from a public hand for the discharge of the Sieur Soutain, Commissary for his Majesty for the receiving the Temporalties of the Abbeys of Clunie and St.  des Prez, together with the thirds of the Oeconomats' design for New Converts.  
3. That these abjurations be since the Month of November last, 1676.  
4. That though they might mount to an hundred Francs that is not to say that it is intended they always should do so, it being necessary to be as wary therein as can be; first for the spreading this dew upon the more people; and then again, because that if an hundred Francs be given to lesser persons without any Family that follows them, those who are raised the least higher or train after them a number of Children, will demand much greater sums.   
My Lords the Prelates, or others, who shall charitably take upon them these kind of Cares, cannot better make their Court to the King, before whose eyes all these Lists of the Converts pass, than in imitating what has been done in the Diocese of Grenoble, where they hardly ever mounted to that sum of an hundred Francs, and were almost always much below it.  
Which does not however hinder, that for more considerable performances, I having first notice, greater sums shall be furnished, according as his Majesty, to whom it shall be made known, shall judge convenient.   
FINIS.   

ERRATA.  
PAge 11. l. 8. for evoqued, r. removed. p. 19 l. 15. for had given, r. had not given. p. 22. l. 2. for regard to, r. regard had to. p. 25. l. 26. for Fiefarons, Fee-farms, p. 31. l. 22. for scale, r. seal. p. 33. l. 12. for to our, r. our. l. 15. for our, r. to our. p. 34. l. 25. for modest, r. modest by force. l. 26. for indignation, r. inclination. p. 43. l. 22. for Baptism of Faith, r. Baptism of Laics. p. 69. l. 14. for Lives, r. Books. p. 78. l. 14. for Bedunt, r. Pedant. p. 107. l. 1. for Schupe, r. Schuyt. p. 146. l. 14 for nutas, r. nutat. p. 150. l. 7. for Profession, r. Profusion.