KA me, AND I'll KA THEE; OR, A dialogue; Wherein is shown the indecency, and unreasonableness of persecuting, and afflictting tender Consciences, for differences in matters of Religion.  
Especially in England, where no one Religion is long in Fashion.  Nihil est quod malignitas vellicare non posset. Senec. 
 
Printed in the year, 1649.   

Ka me, and I'll Ka Thee.  mayor Elder. 
captain Freeman, well met: How farest thou man? what news? how all amort? what is his Excellency troubled with his Pigs petitoes? o● has Noll got a clap in the North? Pish, there was no such skirmish, a mere slanderous tale of Pragmaticus.  captain Freeman. 
What de'e tell me of such fopperies? I would all the libeling Pamphleteers were hanged.  mayor. 
Now I like thy devotion, and with them thy Britanike Archilochus, that has his Pen made of the scale of a Basilisk, dips it in Aconite, and in every line is guilty of Crimen laesae Majestatis, and scandalum magnatum; and that Incendiary the Moderate Intelligencer, who of late is turned plain Bontifew, has left off lying abroad, and falls to rail closely at domestic affairs; then take a whelp of the same Litter, that Catamidiated Ironmonger; if these pernicious Vermin were hanged together, would they not look like so many Poulca●s and Foxes trusted up on a Gibbet to terrify their surviving Companions. These Ominous Scritch-Owles, and ill boding Ravens dive into the bosom of Statesmen, before they have unbuttoned their doublets, with their malicious predictions spoil businesses before they are attempted, and would smother even in the Cradle all good success of the so long wished for Treaty. And what say you to the Sermonist at Peters Paules Wh●rfe? Septemb. 24. he lays about him on all sides like rough ishmael, slashes the Presbyterans, fights with the Independents, challenges the Army, beats down the Parliament, has about with the Papists, forgets his own Principles, contradicts the Scriptures, makes the people believe all the Popes delicates are bought with the Revenue of Indulgencies, and every dish baked, boiled, and roasted, are dressed by the fire of Purgatory: But to the purpose captain; what makes thee look so muddily, like a Compounding Malignant, more dejectedly then a vanquished Cavalier? what is it the casting out of the long Petition? I hope thatis digested by this time.  Freeman. 
No, no, I am come from delivering a short one, a modest one, an humble one, and that forsooth they scorn to answer: Have wee fought all this while, ventured and lost our lives, conquered our Enemies, put down Popery, and Prelacy, and all this to set up foppery, and Presbytery? Have our Hogen Mogen Heeren, so soon forgot the power of our invincible Army? Is our Ovant March through the City out of memory? do not the impeached Members remember they posted fugitives for Holland? And did wee for this connive at their re-admission to join Forces against the Common Enemy the Scot, the revolted Navy, and so many insurrections in England, and Wales? And all these suppressed, and subdued by our Victorious Forces; dare these fisking Hounds that the other day clapped their tails betwixt their legs, return unto their former vomit? like Acteons Curres disdain to aclowledge their Masters? Well, heres a Declaration touches their copy hold to the quick, shall take them a button hole lower, and what is here expressed, demanded, and resolved, shall be prosecuted to the full.  mayor. 
prithee lets peruse it▪ Ha, you are very high: Wee cannot comply with any in the preposterous pretended Treaty with the King, intending siding with Him to slave ourselves, and our Posterity, and the whole kingdom, before these Particulars be ascertained us: Pray God your Particulars be modest. 1. That they make good the supreme of the people from all pretences of Negative Voices, whether it be of King or Lords. How now? Well, Ile say nothing of his Majesty, for he( poor Gentleman) has been laid aside by both the Houses, the Army, and the people these many yeares, though now during the Treaty he is come a little into play; but for our wise Lords, have not they brought their hogs to a faire market? 2. That laws be forthwith made for electing Representatives yearly, without Writs or Summons: Very good, That the time of their sitting shall not exceed fifty dayes at most, and that this present Parliament end within twenty dayes: heres Wormwood; how will our 400 demigods relish this? If quietly they render up their staffe● of Office, How will they cousen the world? which thinks them drunk with a strong confidence they shall be perpetual dictators, rule the roast, and manage all affairs world without end? Lucian tells of a Tragedian that played furious Ajax so seriously, that he fell mad indeed; And our Burgesses many think have so long royallized it▪ that they are turned true Kings, theyle never endure to be deposed. Theyle swear Sylla by his abdication proved no good Grammarian, and did not know what belonged to an absolute Dictatorship. And the same Cornelius Sylla having made himself a private man, and followed by a young boy in the open streets, even to his own door, and at every step reviled with the name of bloodthirsty Tyrant, bore all these approbrious speeches with much patience, and very soberly, though Prophetically ●ayd: This young man will teach others not so soon to part with such an absolute power, which proved afterwards true in Julius Caesar.  Freeman. 
This Article stands with all the reason in the world. To be a Parliament man is either honourable and beneficial, or troublesone, and full of cares. If this last, why should these men onely and always bear the burden and heat of the day? A Gods name, let Jethro's Elders ease Moses of his too much solicitude, and cumbersome employment: If honourable and beneficial, have wee not a world of able men, and as well qualified and deserving as our Senate? Why should not such share in the honour, and participate in the profit?  mayor 
The fourth, That matters of Religion be exempted from all compulsive, and restrictive power of any Authority whatsoever: I mary, if you can get this, get all; what would you have England as free as Amsterdam, copiously furnished with above 100 several Religions; yet wee had an Englishman could not find one of his own Religion amongst them all. You'd have our kingdom another Hannibals Army, composed of a thousand discrepant Dialects, a new babel, where the mechanics that builded a fanatic Tower should reach to Heaven, are confounded in as many tongues as they have Trades.  Freeman. 
I strongly aver it, that if England in this connivance imitated Amisterdam, our Nation would be as happy as Holland, the most flourishing Commonwealth in christendom: And till this liberty be granted wee shall never have peace nor plenty in the Land: Wha● begun all these Comb●●tions in England? Was it not the obtruding of a new form of Liturgy, or Common prayer book upon the Scots, by D. Laud Arch of Canterbury? This was that first ston which never ceased rolling till it rolled the Scotch Prelates out of their Bishop●icks, then stripped our Bishops of their voices in the House of Pe●r●s, then of their episcopal Dignities and Functions( the Houses voting with great applause of the people, there should be no more Bishops:) Lastly of all their Revenues, and Livings, which are now ●old and bought at Robin Hoods penny worths: and that with a great deal of foresighted providence: For as knox intending to roote out of Scotland the mass, and Roman Religion( like another Achitophel) advised the people to pull down the nests of the Crawen( meaning the Churches where Masses were celebrated) and then the Crawen would no more build in them: So these ecclesiastical and ample Revenues being sold away, and allenated, the Pompous Cathedraticall Prelates will not so easily be restored: Nay was not this violent obtrusion of such a form of Service upon Scotland( if wee seriously consider) the primum mobile and sole cause that turned King Charles out of his Throne his queen, and royal Children out of the kingdom?  mayor. 
You say right captain; yet I cannot be of your opinion to admit such a galley maufrey, and Olla Prodrida of Religions; I think 'tis neither for the good nor safety of a kingdom: Yet I must confess the imperious obtruding the Common prayer book on the kirk of Scotland, was the Origen of all these broils and combustions which ensued in England: And I wish that occasion had not b●n given to the people to open their eyes, or rather ●o some Machivillan Statists to apply perspective glasses to the eyes of the people, and make them look further into businesses both of Church and states, then they otherwise would, or indeed ought to have done.  Freeman. 
It is certains that infatuation is the ordinary ●orerunner of p●rdition. At the same time the said Archbishop of Canterbury enjoined an Oath on the Clergy. As I remember he had the consent of the Convocation House for it, notwithstanding it was very much disgusted of the Churchmen, and afterwards proved amongst one of the Articles objected against him. He shewed indeed a zeal and tender care of his Majesty, but that zeal in th●se circumstances was interpnted not to be according to discretion. Another main error the Prelates committed in being so ready and violent( especially D●. Morton Bishop of Durham) in excluding the Papist Lords from their suffrages and Votes in the House of Pe●res( their birthright indeed) whereby presently followed their own deprivation, and expulsion out of the same House. They might have considered the Votes of those catholic Barons joined with the suffrages of the Bishops, would have carried a great sway in that House: And according to the received ●xi●m● and opinion, that Episcopacy does so sympathise with Monarchy by their too eager opposition against them, they could not but much weaken the party of the King, and finally undo themselves.  mayor. 
This was a main error in policy, but was not that as foul a misd●m●●n●r, when being in their Pontificalibus, and h●ffe of Authority, they so p●rsecuted the Non-conformists, and filled the Prisons with poor men, insomuch, as their high Commission Court proved far worse than the Spanish Inquisition; for in that sufficient provision is made to sustain the Prisoners, nor are they urged to accuse themselves, as here they are by the Oath ex Officio. I will not insist how long they were kept in the examination of their Causes, that so continual, and unconscionable Fees might be drawn from them, to the utter undoing of a world of godly and religious people.  Freeman. 
mayor, I now perceive you can both feel and speak, when the inconvenience of force and compulsion in affairs of conscience touches yourselves: And wee see what heart burnings these oppressions, and constraining mens consciences have wrought in the affections of the people: How odious is the memory of Bishop Bonner, and other Prelates in queen Maries time, even at this day to most of our Protestants, though I have heard many moderate men of the catholic Party mislike the then proceedings of the Bishops, as more ●avouring of rigorous zeal, then of a compassionate discretion: Moreover Mr. fox hath been often taxed, that in hate of that Religion he multiplied his Martyrs, and canonised some for Saints in Heaven, who lived many yeares after notorious Varlets on earth. And it was enough for him to make any firebrand Sectary, if he railed against the Pope and Clergy, a Martyr of his Church. You shall hear what the Author of the eleventh Persecution, in his eight Chapter writes, making a concluding parralel between the Popish Persecution in Queen Maries dayes, and this( as he calls it) Puritan Persecution; in Terminis he says; The Parliament, as it hath slain more thousands of English Subjects, then queen Mary condemned scores; So it hath less show of justice or legal proceedings, all being now done coram non Judice, by upstart Committees, and new erected Judicatories, never heard of in England before: As also sine Lege by mere arbitrary votes, and fancies of malicious Adversaries, and Judges in their own cause, nor were any in queen Maries condemned, but by known laws of the Land and legal trial, with disputations, and persuasions used to reclaim them from their supposed Errors; but the Puritan persecution is to hunt after matters of accusation, not to reform Errors, but to torment the Persons of men, and condemnati quoniam accusati, is their justice: howsoever if we revolve ecclesiastical Histories we shall observe much lenity, and tenderness practised by the Fathers of those primitive times in reclaiming Sectaries, and such as differed from them in points of Religion. Arius was a pestilent fellow, and the first Arch heretic, for whose cause, and blasphemous opinion, a general counsel was called; and behold with what meekness, lenity, and industry, the holy Bishops assembled at Nice, dealt with him not with fire and sword; but their weapons were fervent prayers for h●s conversion, and efficacious reasons drawn out of the Scripture for his confutation. After him rose up Photinus, Macedonius Bishop of Constantinople, Aetius and Eunomius, who taught most gross errors against every person of the blessed Trinity: Then Aeriu● who discontented that he could not be ordained Bishop added to arianism his own fanatic opinions, namely, that there was no difference betwixt a Bishop and a Priest: Feasts and Fasts commanded by the Church were not to be observed, no sacrifice nor prayers were to be off●ed for the dead.  mayor. 
But were these tenants esteemed hareticall so many yeares ago?  Freeman. 
Epiphanius heresi, 77. and St. Augustine haer. 53. ad Quod vult Deum▪ list Aerius, in the Catalogue of heretics for these assertions. But to our purpose. After these succeeded many principal Sectmasters, who with their new fangled novelties troubled the Church; as Helvidius, Jovinian, and Pelagius, and a hundreth more of the same litter: But what was the course the ancient Doctors took to suppress the growth of their dangerous errors? either by assembly of Synods, or by solid arguments in elabourated treatices, they convinced, and confuted their fopperies. But wee shall never red of imprisonments, confiscations, banishments, much l●sse of capital punishments; only when the Arians got the upper hand by the imperial power of Constantius, Valens, and afterwards the Vandals in Africa under Gensericus, then all cruelties, imprisonments, coverings, mutilations, Mass●cres were with most barbarous impiety practised against the Orthodoxal Christians. And Victor Uticensis( an eye witness, and sufferer in the same) makes a large and lamentable relation with what diabolical policies the Vandall Machiavellians enacted Laws to entrap and thrust the catholic Clergy, and Laity out of their dignities, Offices, and all charge in the Common wealth, it is well worth your knowledge: and the story is as followeth.  
Gensericus having overrun spain, france, and italy, wafted over his vandals into Africa, wresting the same from the Roman Empire, intruded himself into the sovereignty there of( being as this iceland) by Sea divided from the rest of the Empire: He was no sooner seated in his in j●st perquisites▪ then suddenly surprised with fears and jealousies how to keep his new conquered kingdom from the true owner the Emperour, he deemed no way more fit for the preservation thereof then by dissonant, and irreconcilable opinions in Religion, to divide the peoples hearts from all society with the Empire, and by establishing the A●ian heresy to alienate them from all communion with Greece, italy, and the rest of christendom. Wherefore oaths of State were contrived thereby to entrap the Orthodoxal Christians; the mass, Sacrifices, Rights, and ecclesiastical Ceremonies were abolished, and in their place the Arian form for Common prayer was set up. Disputations were offered to the catholic Bishops, but violently and uncivilly demeaned. The Bishops were driven from their Sees, the Clergy exiled, and a new race of Bishops, and Priests put in their places. Senators were removed from the Senate, and thrust out of their dwelling mansions. The catholic people were not suffered to bear Offices, but were confined, restrained, and forbidden to be harboured, or relieved. ●he best sort in a manner enslaved, their goods brought forth and seized, themselves branded to be wicked and impious, their Priests seditious. Vestments and Ornaments of the Church were profaned, and turned to common uses, books were rifled and prohibited, Christian burial denied, and all places of prayer and sacrifice debarred: If any catholic took the Oath of State, yet notwithstanding he was restrained from having books in his house, from baptizing, from giving Orders, from reconciling. The very name of Rome was maliced, ●he Bishop thereof vilified and hated, and the name of catholics denied to Orthodox Professors. All imperial laws made against heretics were turned, and practised against catholics; who for covetousness of their goods were the trampling stocks of all beggarly and needy people. Above all the rage of the Arrian Bishops, Apostates and Pursuivants was most furious, exceeding even that of the Tyrant himself: For the Pursu●vants having Commission from the State, and incited by the cruel and blood thirsty Arrian Bishops, frequently preached the Prisons, where many reverend Prelates, learned Priests, and catholic Gentlemen and Gentlewomen lay in miserable durance; and under pretence of taking away their Church stuff, robbed them of considerable sums of money, which was sent in by charitably disposed persons to maintain a multitude of Prisoners, and preserve them from starving, plundered them of their cloths and household stuff, took away their books, though of human literature, which they forced the poor Priests to redeem for moneys.  mayor. 
What people were these Pursuivants? And is it possible that a Commonwealth or any Nation governed by Laws as you mention the Vandals were, should permit such enormities, or not rather punish so great injustice?  Freeman. 
These Pursuivants were a certain Generation of pernicious Vipers, ravenous Harpi●s of a kingdom, colli-strigiated boot halers: You might take a dozen of them, and amongst them all not find one Jews ear to boil in milk, and save your Childes life troubled with a sore throat: For the permission or connivance of these Messengers, who were throughout the whole Persecution nocturni Ambulones, diurni Nebulones; you must understand, so implacable was the hatred of the State,( which policy and private ends augmented) against catholics, that though complaints were made, and Petitions exhibited; yet no ear was allowed, nor redress granted; until God( against whom there is no policy, craft, subtlety, counsel, wit, wisdom, or prevention) eased the yoke of the afflicted, first by an horrible Famine and mortality, then by the subduing and extinguishment of the Vandals: Lastly, by reuniting the Province both to the union of the Roman Empire, and Communion of the catholic Church. These barbarous and inhuman persecutions of the Vandall Arrians have been detested in all after times, and I much fear that some Machiavellians in our, and our fathers memories have fetched their projects, plots, & machinations in their intended overthrow of all Religion from these uncircumcised Barbarians. And let us consider whether wee have not invented oaths, which have most grievously trenched on mens consciences, and withall adjoined penalties to be inflicted on such who refuse to take them; namely, to incur a praemunire, perpetual imprisonment, confiscation of their goods: Yea for the Clergy it was made death in Queen Elizabeths time, to refuse the Oath of Supremacy: And it was practised for the space of 80 yeares, that who refused to go to Church, and hear Divine Service, should pay 20l. ● month, or two parts of their estate. And now the same Divine Service( as they then called it) or Common prayer book is put down, and condemned by this Parliament as damnable and superstitious: What shall wee say, was there any justice, or was it not against all Law, conscience, and justice to punish Recusants, and so heavily, making them Delinquents? Because they would not wrong their conscience in going to such a Service which was damnable, and superstitious. I ask this question, the book of Common prayer was either holy, and good, or superstitious, ●nd damnable? I● good, why was it with such disgrace abolished? If bad, why would they compel men to frequent the aforesaid Service, and enact such penalties for those who refused to hear the same: Nor can it be answered that the Parliament ordaining the said Common prayer book to be used, and said in all Churches through the kingdom, bestowed goodness on the book, and made it holy: So likewise ●he Parliament declaring the same book to be superstitious and damnable, makes it to be so indeed. For as in Objects of our Faith there is an intrinsical, and constant verity, neither can counsels make them by their Declarations, Articles of our belief, but onely that such and such positions were either immediately revealed, or are by necessary consequence deduced out of Principles revealed. Nor is it in the power of Synods by any Declarations whatsoever, to make what is false true, or what is true false: So likewise in moral Actions, such as the Worship of God, belonging to Religion( a moral Virtue) there is an inherent dignity and goodness conform and acceptable to the will of God unalterable by any Parliament, or constitutions of men. And though Parliaments may presume to ordain and command such Religious Service to be practised, and used in a kingdom, and following Parliaments take upon them to annul, abrogate, and abolish the said Religious Acts, and form of Service ordained, and established by their Predecessors▪ Yet notwithstanding all such Ordinances, Declarations, and injunctions, the said form of Common prayer is neither better nor worse in its own nature, that is either in conformity to the will of God, or obliquity, and repugnance to the said divine will; but if once pleasing and holy, it is still and ever will be so: If superstitious and bad, it was ever so, and will always so remain. I mean in this last state of grace, when by our Saviours fullfilling the Law, the Sacrifices, Sacraments, Rites, and Ceremonies of Moses were evacuated: Nor may wee expect new Law-givers, or new Revelations in substantial points of belief and divine worship. Wherefore as if because at some times of the day, namely morning and evening, my body casts a larger shadow then at other houres of the same day, to wit about noon( without the least contraction or extension of my stature & dimensions) I should be esteemed a fool or a madman, if looking on my shadow I would either glory in my height at one time, or be dejected seeing myself represented a dwarf at another; the shadow neither adding to, nor diminishing the just stature and proportion of my body. In like manner it were a great want of judgement to imagine that any Commonwealth or Senate Representative of that Commonwealth, can with the shadow of their Ordinances, and Declarations add to, or take from the worth and dignity of any Liturgy, or Common prayer book, if it be good and holy, or the obliquity, if damnable and superstitious: Wherefore such, who sit at the helm of States, ought with much caution and consideration be careful what they impose on the people in this kind, and with the like wariness be advised how they abolish the same once commanded, and by public Authority established. There happened in Michaelmas term, 1647. an odd passage at the Sessions of Newgate, where a Gentleman pleading for his life in danger by the severity of our laws( in matters of Religion)  told the Recorder that for many yeares the Recusants were persecuted, imprisoned, and forced to pay large sums of moneys, because they could not so far stretch their consciences as to go to hear such prayers, which were now condemned as damnable and superstitious, and he adjoined that by this Declaration and condemnation, the Parliament had done the Recusants much right in manifesting to the world why they lost their goods, were imprisoned, and suffered death, namely, because they did no● conform themselves to what was by the Parliament condemned as damnable and superstitious.  mayor. 
What said the Recorder to this Plea?  Freeman. 
sergeant green sate in the place of Mr. Glin( being at that time in the Tower, and impeached of high Treason) and answered the Gentlemans arguments very learnedly.  mayor. 
Pray how?  Freeman. 
With club-Law, he commanded the Gentleman should presently be put in irons, and carried to the common goal.  mayor. 
That was very hard for speaking truth; yet you know that in most parts of christendom they punish Sectaries, and such who profess a contrary Religion.  Freeman. 
I know well that in some places they do so, but withall say they are too blame for doing so: Now whereas you said in all countries they use a coercive power, and punish such who do not conform themselves to the Religion, and ecclesiastical discipline of those kingdoms is not generally true; but rather for the most part generally not so? for in the Low-Countreyes, many parts of Germany, all france we see a toleration, or at least a connivance in permitting the Subject to enjoy the liberty of his conscience: Nay, the great turk who is most precise in restraining disputations about his Alcoran, suffers the Grecians to profess Christianity: So likewise the Georgians in Asia, without vexations, and compulsion, frequent their own Churches and assemblies. I must ad more, in Egypt there are four several Religions drawn from so many several interpretations of the Mahometan Law, yet the chief Bishops, and Priests, though divided in opinion, live in much concord one with another, have conferences and disputations about their tenants with eagerness, not rancour defending their own▪ and impugning the contrary opinions; the people also, though embracing so different Sects live very peaceable together? 'Tis true there is an Inquisition in Italy; but not so rigorous as our late high Commission Court: For spain you must understand that country was overrun by the Moores, and the Maho●etan Religion giving so large a scope to sensuality and libertinism, unto which by reason of their not constitution, the Spanyards are very prove; an inquisition there, for business of● faith was very requisite: Yet notwithstanding, the same Inquisition, because it trenches on mens consciences is not approved even of some most learned roman Divines, you shall hear what Gerson chancellor of Paris says in this very point, Morte vero punire posse Haereticos, &c. It never was a general tenant of the Church that heretics, though convicted, yea relapsed, and most obstinate, might be punished with death, if there were no danger of Sedition and Rebellion against the Commonwealth. And concerning the practise of the Inquisition, it is certain that very many catholics, and extraordinary learned have disallowed that practise, though this is a business of fact▪ or rather prudence, and discretion▪ not of Doctrine. St. Augustine likewise much commendeth those imperial laws which punished heretics, but not with death. And Ep. 48. the same Father is much more favourable▪ for he writeth thus: It was always my opinion that no man should be compelled to the Unity of Christ, but he ought to be dealt with by words, and fought with by disputations, and convinced by reasons, lest for true Christians wee have dissembling catholics. And this great doctor speaks with much reason; for when people are compelled either for fear of death, or corporal punishment, or loss of their goods to embrace a Religion, which they in their understanding esteem not right, though the s●me Religion should be true, yet their erroneous conscience makes the profession of that faith pernicious and damnable to them, according to that of the Apostle. Quod non est ex fide peccatum est, meaning whatsoever is done against a mans conscience is a sin. Neither is there any constant perseverance to be expected in such convertites; for ordinarily they change and shift their Religions as often as Players do their clothes. And for my part I confess, I could never meet with a solid reason, why here in England there should be such mutual enmity, hatred, bitterness, and persecutions for diversity of opinions in Religion, since Protestant, Puritan, Brownist, Anabaptist, and the rest agree in fundamental Points of Faith.  mayor. 
But what say you to the Papist? I hope you'll grant they differ from us all in substantial points.  Freeman. 
You P●esbyterians must still have about with the Papists: To answer you concerning them, I must tell you, that King James intending a match betwixt his son Prince Charles, and the Spanish Lady▪ and understanding that persecution for Religion would be the main obstacle in that business, demanded of George then Archbishop of Canterbury( who though a Bishop was always reputed a great Puritan) whether Recusants might be saved; the Archbishop replied, he did not doubt but they might be saved, and many were actually Saints in Heaven: Whereupon the King rejoined, he knew no reason, if the Protestants and Papists lived quietly, and reigned gloriously in Heaven, why they should vex one another, and for such differences in opinion, which did not impede their title and entrance into eternal glory: And if wee consider rightly, wee must aclowledge( unless wee deny all Histories) our kingdom beholding to the Papists for the conversion of this Nation to Christianity, for the building our Churches, and endowing them with ecclesiastical Revenues, for erecting our Universities, founding our colleges, and leaving us almost all our Monuments of Learning, piety, and Charity, as Free schools the inns of Court and Hospitals: Now let us reflect upon ourselves, have not we dealt prittily with them? first we turned them out of their livings, imprisoned, banished them, have hanged, and still hang 'em for profession of their Religion.  mayor. 
The first man( as I have red) that seized on Churchlivings here in England was King Henry the 8. I pray tell me what Religion was he of?  Freeman. 
King Henry the 8 was in all points a Roman catholic, except in that of the Supremacy, which he of all our English Kings first took upon him: he was a Prince so tyrannicall and cruel, that Sir Walter Raleigh in his Preface to the History of the world, writeth, if all the Acts, and bloody deeds of Tyrants in former ages were not recorded, but quiter forgot, his onely life would afford a true and most genuine Character of an impious and inhuman Tyrant: And tis true what you said that he first violently took away the livings of the Church; but he proceeded in his Rapine and sacrilege by degrees: For first, Anno Regni 21. he seized on york House anciently belonging to the Arch Bishops of york, by the attainder of cardinal Wolsey in a praemunire, and compelled the cardinal before a Judge of Records to acknoledge the same( being then most sumptuously by him built and furnished) to be the Kings right; and thereupon the King changed the name, and called it White-Hall, In the 22. year of his reign he took the hospital of Saint James into his hands, together with all the meadows, and Pastures thereunto belonging, as commodious for his house of White-Hall, made a park thereof, built a faire palace, and enclosed all within a brick wall. In the 24. of his reign he suppressed the Priory of Christ-Church in London, sent the Canons to other Priories, and gave their Church, Plate, and other jewels to Sir T Audley. In the 26. year he suppressed and seized the houses of the observant friars at Greenwich, Canterbury, Richmond, Newark, and Newcastle; and finding the sweet thereof, he suppressed other petty Religious Houses: All which he did as he was head of the Church, by the virtue of his Supremacy, without consent of the Parliament. Afterwards in he yeares of his reign, 27. 29. and 30. he suppresses by Parlia●entary consent greater abbeys, Monasteries, and Priories, with other Religious Houses, yet such as were under 200 in yearly revenues, them the King erected a Court of Augmentation for the receipt of his Revenues, coming in upon the said suppressions. The Rhoodes of Grace, and of Saint Margaret by Tower street were profaned and defaced. Also those places of devotion at Walsingam, and Ipswitch, Lewes, and battle abbeys in Suff●x, Martin abbey in Surrey, Stratford abbey in Ess●x. St. Augustines with Thomas Beckets shrine in Canterbury. St. Thomas de Acres in London, the Black friars, the White friars, the Cha●ter house monks, and a multitude of other houses in divers parts of the realm, whereof divers exceeded 200l. in yearly Revenues, contrary to the meaning of the Parliament, though in the 31 year of his reign, the Parliament gave to the King all the greatest Monasteries, Priories, and abbeys in England and Wales, as Westminster, Glastenbury, St. Albans, St. Edmundsbury, Redding, and others. In the year following the Corporation of St. Johns o● Jerusalem founded for the defence of christendom against the Turkes, Saracens, & Infidels, together with all the Command●ies, Manners, Lands, Tenements, and hereditaments thereunto belonging, were to the everlasting shane of our Nation, given to the King by Parliamentary consent, and Authority. In the 37. year of his reign, the Parliament( a constant Pander, and offitious Hee-Baud to this Kings lusts, sacrileges, and Tyrannies) granted to the King all colleges( the University colleges excepted) free chapels, chantries, Brotherhoods, and stipendiary Priests, with all their Lands Rents, and Hereditaments: Likewise a confirmation of the grants of certain Lands, parcels of the archbishoprics of Canterbury and york, and the bishopric of London, and power to erect the aforesaid Monasteries into Manners.  mayor. 
You speak of infinite Treasures, which must accrue to the Kings coffers out of these ecclesiastical Revenues: and I have heard that he had six or seven and thirty cart loads of Gold, Silver, and Jewels, brought from the shrine of St. Thomas of B●cket at Canturbury to London, and sold to one Traps a Goldsmith in cheapside. Also chancellor Bacon writes, that his Father Henry the 7. le●t him at his death 38. hundred thousand pounds; what became of these inestimable sums?  Freeman. 
King Henry was a Prince by nature profuse, and had time enough to consume those moneys left by his Father, before he fell to his sacrilegious Rapines, and robbing the Church. And concerning these injust perquisites from the Clergy, and Regulars, you must know that what is got over the Devills back, rots under his Dams belly. Many or most of these Church Lands were sold at Robin Hoods penny worths, others bestowed on the Nobility, and Gentry, to engage them to uphold and further the sacrilege, some exchanged for other Lands. All these immense sums, as they were ill gotten, so were they as ill spent in the Kings unnecessary wa●s with Scotland, and France: For by these sales most of the treasure of the Land fell into the Kings hands, who transported and exhausted the same in his foreign wars, leaving the realm without its common stock of Bullion, through want whereof the King was forced to stamp his face in brass, and 
pewter had been fitter for a great platter face.  compel his Subjects by crying down the pure and good money, to take the same: Neither did most of those thrive better, who purchased of the King Church Livings, the Lands of the Church sympathising in nature with the herb Traphenio, which consumes both itself, and all Plants growing with it. No otherwise( as hath been well observed) the Lands and Patrimonies of the Church( like the Horse of Gn. Seius, or the goodly Indian Elephant fatal to many Masters, and great work) have been the overthrow, ruin, and undoing of the owners, possessors, and purchasers.  mayor. 
The Parliament could not but understand the King had no title or right to seize on the Possessions of the Church, being bestowed on Clergy men by the founders and benefactors for pious uses ordained to the service of God: Wherefore I wonder why they would condescend to such unjust grants, and confirm the injurious depredations by Acts of Parliament.  Freeman. 
Many of the Parliament were sharers and gainers in these unlawful Perquisites, and if any out of conscience did withstand the Kings will and demands, his custom was to sand for one of the chief opposers, and whispering in his ear, tell him Sirrha, I have such a business in agitation, and I understand you, and some others your Companions hinder it, let me have it done, or I'll have your throat cut. In such circumstances, what should the poor souls do? It is good sleeping in a whole ski●.  mayor. 
Twas a supreme Providence of God, that Henry the 8 reigned not in these dayes; our Patriots( the zealous Burgesles of the present Parliament) would have again, and again contradicted, and frustrated his lawless desires, though every one had lost as many lives as a cat has.  Freeman. 
I cannot tell that. The lion, the ass, and the wolf went a hunting, with condition the spoil should be equally divided: They kill a fat Buck; the ass is appointed to cut out the shares, who with much care and scruple deals to every one an equal part. The furious lion with much indignation tears silly signior Asno in pieces, and commands the wolf to make the division, who reserving a poor shoulder to himself, presents all the rest to his Lord and sovereign, who well contented, asked the wolf where he had learned to divide with such equality. And it like your Majesty, answered the wolf, my foolish Brother ass has taught me this distributive Justice: You cannot imagine( suppose King Henry had been reserved to these times) how effectually in such circumstances one contradicting Asses head c●op● off, would have moved and tertified the rest of his Brethren, and make them pliant to the Kings will and desires. But it is memorable, that this Prince, who against the laws of God and man, had violated, frustrated, and diverted the Wills and Legacies of so many thousands, should not have his own will and testament scarce in one point fulfilled. And having commanded his son should be brought up in the roman catholic Religion, and there should be no protector, the condition and ambition of a protector being rendered most odious to him, by the memory of Richard D●ke of gloucester protector, to Edward 6. The Duke of Somerset was made protector of the young King, and the said Duke innovated all matters concerning Religion, and the worship of God, made a havoke also of the Church Goods; the Kings 16. Executors being put out of Authority.  mayor. 
I have red that Henry the Eight, at his entrance into the Regallity, found six hundreth forty and five goodly, faire, and rich Monasteries, Priories, friaries, and Nunneries, ninety, and six faire colleges( besides those of the Universities) one hundred and ten hospitals, two thousand three hundred scutcheon four chantries and free chapels, which were in building ever since our receipt of Christianity these were all pulled down, ruined, and defaced in the space of 18. or 19. yeares, and all the Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Rents amounting to above one hundred and fifty thousand pound yearly, according to the Rates of those times, and a great part thereof were also Rents of Assize, were seized on by the King, distracted to, and profaned by Laymen.  Freeman. 
A man would conceive that Henry the Eight having so fl●iced the Church, very little should be left for after comers to pray upon; yet notwithstanding Seimour and dudley could plentifully glean after King Henries harvest: For dudley then onely Viscount Lisl●●, afterwards earl of Warwick, and finally Duke of Northumberland disdaining the equality, and competition of 16. Executors, perceiving Seimour earl of Harford, to be a man of no wisdom or courage; yet respected for his affibility, and fortunate, rather then valoro●s managing his charge of employment in France and Scotland, ambitious and desirous to surmount his fellow Executors in the administration of all businesses private and public touching the King and the kingdom, as Uncle to the King, but withall observed, that he had not capacity to digest, or plausibly manage affairs of high concernment; wherefore he insinuated nearly and dearly into his friendship, and put him on to attempt ●he Protectou●ship over the young King, and so to break and shatter the Authority, and equality of the 16. Executors; foreseeing, that he would easily split himself, and fall into some such error of State, that he( dudley) making the protector a stalking Horse to his ambitious ends) might at his own times take occasion to ruin, and put down again, and so himself being popular assume the sway of all matters into his own hands. And so accordingly by a combination betwixt these 2. Seimour is made protector, and Duke of Somerset, dudley earl of Warwick, who thrust the protector upon all desperate actions to make him( as they did) odious to the King, Nobility, and Gentry. His Engines persuaded the duchess to incense her husband against his Brother Thomas Seimour, Lord Sudely, that he sought to take away his life, thereby to have his place of protector; whereupon he procured his Brother upon feigned suggestions to be attainted by Parliament, and the Act was no sooner passed, then by Warrant from himself, his Noble Brothers head was chopped off. Warwick also advised and urged the dull protector to make a sudden alteration both in State and Religion; in the attempt whereof, doctor gardener Bishop of Winchester, doctor Bonner of London and divers other Bishops opposing this innovation were committed to Prison. And these two Church robbers so played their parts, that all silver Chalices, Cruits, Crosses, Pixes, Candlesticks, Censors, basins, consecrated silver and golden Vessels, Copes, Vestments, and other Church Ornaments richly embroidered, were taken out of all Churches, and for satisfaction of the people, first carried into the Kings wardrobe, but afterwards converted to their own uses▪ Also all Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments given for upholding Lamp●s, Lights, and other pious uses fell into the absolute disposal of the King, or rather of the protector; and Warwick, who still pushed on the protector into these hairebraine and precipitate courses, and afterwards made them matters of Engrievance against him. Likewise all Religious Monuments were demolished, and amongst the rest the most stately curious work of the cloister charnel house, and dance of Paules, which two chapels were turned into shops, and the stones thereof, together with the Strand Church, the Strand inn, two Bishops houres, being all of them standing together, and the sumptuous Church of St. Johns without Smithfield were all pulled down, and the materials together with the ground in the Strand, converted into a dwelling house, without either Church or chapel( as King James observed) to which end also the Church of St. Margaret in Westminster was designed; but before the pulling down thereof the protectors head was chopped off for a business wherein he might have had the benefit of his Clergy, but through the justice of God, he who had been such an Enemy to Religion, the Clergy, and all Learning, never remembered to demand it: Having first lost the love of the young King his Nephew, the Nobility, and people, for the death of the Lord Sudely his Brother, his cruelty to the Bishops and Clergy at home, and the Scottish Clergy abroad, his conversion of 2 Churches, 2 Bishops houses, and their chapels, and chantries on both sides of Paules, the cloister, and charnel into a dwelling house for himself, without Church or chapel therein; whereby the people deemed him irr●ligious, an Atheist and a Demi-devil. After whose death Warwick who was newly created D. of Northumberland, engrossed the sway of all matters within the realm, who though a roman catholic, yet such was his covetousness, that he likewise exceedingly robbed the Church, and under pretence of the Kings necessities, sold all Jewels, Chalices, Crosses, Candl●sticks, Censors of Gold and Silver, Copes, and Ornaments of the Church, leaving to every Church one Chalice, one Communion cloth, and one Su●plice, he made also by sale of chantry Lands great sums of money: Thus you have heard how by making a schism, and division in the Church, King Henry seized on the Church Livings and Treasure: after him the protector made an absolute separation, and converted Churches and chapels to profane uses, robbed all the Churches of their Riches and Ornaments. Dudley Duke of Northumberland, although a catholic, yet continued, and made more wide this breach for his own ambitious and covetous ends; but how Gods heavy vengeance overtooke them all, our Chronicles do sufficiently and lamentably testify: The King dying a beggar, and in much desperation mumbling these last words, monks, Friers, Brian, wee have lost all. I should have  told you, how being in these desperate agonies, advised by some to erect his thoughts, and to call upon God for mercy; he answered how could he expect mercy, who who had never spared mans life in his wrath, nor womans honour in his lust? And he who per fas, & ●efas, so multiplied wiv●s to leave a succession of Heires, after some few yeares had not one left qui mingeret ad pariel●m, and in less then threescore yeares all his Issue extinct. The Prot●ctour egged, and cheated into desperate courses, by Northumberland, afterwards supplanted, deposed, imprisoned, fined, arr●igned, condemned, and executed by means of the same Northumberland, who likewise having contrived and prosecuted the destruction of a Religion, which in his conscience he thought the true, and onely Religion, as appears by his answer to Sir Anthony brown( afterwards Viscount Mountacute) to whom, and others moving him for the restitution of the roman Religion, he replied: Albeit he knew the same Religion to be true, yet seeing a new Religion was begun, RUN DOG RUN devil, he would go forward: I say this great Duke, for Treason against the crown, the succession whereof he would have diverted, and settled upon the Lady Jane, and his own Posterity,( or as many believed on himself by marriage with the true heir, the Lady Mary) was beheaded, and on the scaffold sincerely professed the roman Religion, bewailing much that blinded by ambition, he con●●ived a facility by alteration of Religion to compass, and a●chieve his own ends; he deplored his execrable attempts inj●rious to the Church, trai●rous to the crown, pernicious to the Commonwealth, vouching for witness of his faith, D. Heath Archbishop of york, and afterwards chancellor.  mayor. 
You speak of strange dilapidations and depredations of the Church; yet queen Elizabeth, King James, and his Son our sovereign King Charles have no ways been injurious, but favourers, advancers, and beneficial to the Clergy.  Freeman. 
queen Elizabeth to secure her title( in question by reason of her Fathers marriage with Anne of Bullen) against Mary queen of Scots reputed by many the true heir following the advice of her new States-men, but deep politicians altered the whole frame of eclesiastical affairs, put down the old Religion, to which the Kingdom but 4 or 5 years before was reconciled, after the breach in King Henry the Eight, and Edward the sixts reign, deposed the Bishops, banished and imprisoned the most eminent Clergy men; all the Parish Priests were either to conform themselves to the new brought in Religion, or to loose their benefice; and this was not onely in London, but throughout the whole kingdom; and you may imagine in what a puzzle were the poor Curates, Parish Priests, Prebends, deans, Bishops, Arch Bishops, when they must either loose their lively-hoods, or else assent to, and profess such Doctrines which were diametrically opposite to their avite faith and Religion. And this Persecution was far more cruel then the present affliction of the Clergymen in and about London since the beginning of this Parliament, which the author( and it seems he is a learned man) is pleased to style the eleventh Persecution.  mayor. 
I have red this book, and the Gentleman( whosoever made it) hath many observable passages; we will discourse of it anon: in the mean time I pray proceed.  Fre●man. 
Dr. Juell Bishop of Salisbury in a Sermon before Q. Elizabeth, says, that the a●cient Churchmen being thrust out of their livings, a company of illiterate mechanics were planted in their rooms, such who could but writ and red, and gather in Tithes for their Patrons use, with courchees for some wages for their journey work, which made the Clergy so contemptible, that a Zealous Minister heavily co●●lained, that no Gentleman would bestow his son on the ministry, nor his Daughter on the Minister: Yet in ●ime( as ou● English wits are pregnant) the Universities aff●rded a Clergy sufficiently learned for human literature, Sermons and Sophistry; but scarce ever launched into the depth of Learning,( the metaphysics, and school Divinity) though most capable of such penetrations, yet for certain jealous policies debarred them. 'Tis true queen Elizabeth suffered her own, and new made Bishops and Clergy to enjoy what was left the Church, after the many sacrilegious violences, and robberies of Henry the Eight her Father, Somerset, and Northumberland; yet she did not restore to the Church such Lands were in the possession of the Crowne●▪ and belonged to the Church; though her Sister queen Mary ●ad left her a faire precedent in that nature. Nor would she ever condescend that the marriages of Ministers should be lawful, nor their children legitimate,( the Matrimony of such Parents by ancient Canons, being made invalid, as persons inhabiles ad contrahendum) which King James afterwards did by Act of Parliament, and as he was a Prince learned himself, so he was a great favourer, and advancer of learning and learned men. And certainly if our Universities had followed his prescripts and advice, wee had known many Divi●es of more solid e●udition, though perhaps not of so great Eloquence. His Son K. Charles a Prince adorned with all the endowments of a Gentleman, a favourer of all Sciences, a lover and advancer of all the Clergy men, who could entitle themselves to learning; yet infortunate in, and for the Clergy, the quarrels betwixt the kingdoms beginning about Church businesses, and the woeful consequences of those Scottish quarrels and English combustions, being the imprisonment of his Sacred Majesty, the expulsion of his Royal bedphere and Issue, the ruin of the kingdom, putting down of Episcopacy, the sale and alienation of Bishops Lands, and with thē the overthrow of Learning, the che●ishing and advancement of Learning, being the Nurse, or rather the Mother of studies and good literature. Finally the alteration of Religion, and leaving the people,( the present being put down) in a quandary what Religion they shall next have, and be forced to profess.  mayor. 
I must confess, that it is very strange, what the author of the eleventh Persecution writes, that in the space of 12. yeares, Religion was changed four times, and this done by Act of Parliament.  Freeman. 
And is it not then as lamentable, that our English Nation must still keep their consciences prepared to embrace, and profess what Religion the Parliament will put upon t●●m, or undergo such penalties, as imprisonments, mulcts, premunires, and the like, as the Parliament shall impose on Non-conformists, and tender consciences, as wee see hath been practised these many yeares ●nent and against such who refused to hear the Divine Service, which is now declared to be damnable and superstitious. But though Princes and Rulers may compel Subjects under them to conform themselves to the present and practised Discipline of the Church, yet such conformity is rather an hypocritical show, then a real profession: For as Lactantius says well, who can impose on me a necessity to believe what I would not▪ or not believe what I would: Therefore in these occasions a wise governor will use that temper and patient prudence, which he practices when his Lute or Viol is out of tune. He do's not in anger break the instrument, or cut the strings, but g 〈…〉 ly wind them up, or softly slakning let them ●owne: So Quod in fidibus, ho● in fide, when any Christians belief is Hererodoxall, a discreet Magistrate will not cruelly destroy the misbelieving Su●ject, but by gentle persuasions, efficacious reasons, endeavou● to mollify his will, and rectify his understanding, well knowing the mind of man is noble, and like a generous and high couraged horse, that will go better guided by a snaffle, then kerbed by a bit; remembering also that o● sallust. both men and Cities are rather overthrown, then bettered by too severe judgements.  mayor. 
But to permi● sundry Religions in a kingdom, is against the safety of the State, by reason of the contentions, hatreds, heart burnings, and combustions which ordinarily accompany the several professors.  Freeman. 
You may imagine so; but I am sure the egyptian Kings thought and practised orherwise, who as Diodorus Siculus record●th purposely brought in, and cherished diversities of Religions to secure their Empire from the Subj●cts conspiracies. And Ammianus Marcellinus an Heathen author writes, that Julian the Emperour convoked all the Christi●n Bish●ps into his Palace, and friendly admonished them and the Laity( all dissensions laid aside) quietly without molesting one another to enjoy the liberty of the●r conscience, and every one follow that Religion which he liked best, which says Ammi●nus, he therefore did that by their disunion in Religion he might prevent all unanimity in plo●ting and conspiring against him. You'l say these Mon●rkes of egypt were Pagans, and Julian a Renegado and Apostata. I confess 'tis true, but what then will you answer to the moderation of Valentinian? Therefore much commended by the same Historian; for that amid the diversity of so many Religions,( though he professed himself, and was a catholic) yet he never persecuted any for their conscience, nor compelled his Subjects to embrace this or that Religion, nor with threatening Edicts constrained them to profess that faith which he himself professed: Such also was the favourable deportment of Theodosius, and in our Fathors dayes of Charles the fift, and other pious E●perours; whereas it is remarkable, that such Princes, who have been extraordinarily vicious and impious, have likewise been notoriously cruel in the persecution of the Church▪ Instances may be made in Nero, Domitian, Commodus, Constantinus Coprononymus, and divers others.  mayor. 
What Persecutions the Heathen Princes raised against Gods Church, was either out of zeal to their Idols, or rather out of madness: for those which you have name, and some others were rather Monsters then men, and as their private actions were most degenerate from the dignity of man, so their public fury, and persecution of Christians were inhuman and diabolical: But I am astonished that such Princes and Statesmen▪ who are insignized with the indelible character of a Christian, should make Religion a stalking horse to their ambitious, and covetous aims, quarrel with, and alter Religion, defame and persecute the Clergy, onely for sacrilegious ends, to rob, and make spoils of the Church as Henry the 8. Seimour the protector, and Dudley did.  Freeman. 
I dare not aver( as the author of the eleventh Persecution positively doth) that these hurly-burlies since 1641. and the alteration both of Religion, and Government in the kingdom were plotted and effected for sinister ends, and private interests, and all those who concurred, and furthered them had their peculiar ends and indirect aims. 1. The Courtie●s hoped to thrust out the Kings favourites, and be advanced themselves in their rooms. 2. The Country Nobility hoped by new modeling the Court, to gain prefermen●, and the disposal of all chief Offices of State. 3. The Gentry were whetted on with desires of revenge for private injuries, ease of Monopolies, and taxes, hopes of preferment, gain, and employment. 4. Tub-preachers▪ Lecturers, and Sect●ries hoped by this alteration to invade other mens livings, and that the Bishops lands should be allotted to maintain preaching Ministers, but in this they were frustrated of their expectation: the Armies arrears like Pharo's lean kine devouring them, and the fat of the land, and to which in time the whole kingdom will be indebted in far greater sums then it is worth: and the Souldiers sword has more power then a sergeants Mace to arrest debters. Finally the Lawyer, the clown and Citizen had perverse ends to be obtained by these al●erations. The Lawyer to thrust the Clergy out of all authority and jurisdiction, the Country man to defraud the Church of Tiches, and the Citizens expected by these mutations to see their London another Ormus for commerce, and Trade. This was the Utopia fancied, hoped for, and plotted by many. But the woeful effects are the captivity of the King, the profligation of his royal consort, and issue, the Nobility in danger to be leveled, the Gentry( for a great part) actually begered, merchandise debarred, all sorts of Trade decayed, the Commonalty almost starved, Religion even thrust out of the kingdom; finally the ruin of a late flourishing Nation: every where much abundance of misery, no where the least appearance of Remedy. Yet few reflect on, or retract the true cause of these calamities, our sins, but like Carriers horses we plod on, yea weary ourselves in the road way of iniquity, and toil out ourselves in walking craggy Paths. Sap. 8. The Nobility, how much have many of them degenerated from that heroik spirit, which informed and adorned their magnanimous forefathers; yet like that stupid roman, who marrying Tullies wife, fond conceited he should have in Dowry with her Tullies Eloquence: So these fond possess themselves because they descend from such honourable ancestors, they must be Heires, as of their stem and Revenues, so of their worth, virtues, and respect. Oh the Fable of the cheated Horse, and Hart, would learn these Grandees wit,( if they were capable of so supreme a benefit) and teach who rides, switches, and spurs them: But now( though horses) they have been so long j●ded and cowed, they dare not once recalcitrate. The Gentry profuse, vain, and debauched, and too many of them, because they will serve no God, believe there is none▪ and measure the excellency of their wits by their proficiency in atheism. The Ci●izen more malicious, proud, hypocritical, covetous then ever; yet is in his own eyes a Saint, and would appear so in the eyes of others: In all wicked attemp●s most desperately valiant, but more timorous then Hares when true valour should be shown, as appeared in the surrender of the City, and the Ovant March of the( then) tag rag Army through the town. They were the first seconds, the constant fomenters, and obstinate supporters of these unnatural, and Realme-destroying combustions: And it is much to be feared will be the last, shal dearly pay for, and heavily repent their unadvised follies. Generally the whole kingdom stiff●necked, brutish, and irreligious, uncertain what faith to embrace, themselves yet haters, and persecutors of what Religion is professed by oaths.  mayor. 
For what I can collect out of your discourse, the Church hath been most passive in these Revolutions, and combustions, the Clergy men being thrust out of their livings, and imprisoned, their Wives and children turned out of doors, Episcopacy voted down, the lands of Bishops, deans, and Chapters, sold and alienated. Is there any thing now considerable left to be made a prey on in the next grassation?  Freeman. 
Yes, for a new generation, there remain Churches to be pulled down, and Parsonages to be made money of. So the protector coverted so many Churches, and chapels to the ●recting his stately Somerset house.  mayor. 
But then in what place should we serve God?  Freeman. 
As they do in Scotland, in spacious barns good enough for Tub-preachers. And what a fine spectacle will it be to have Sir Aminadab hoist up in a basket in the middle of the barn( like some puny apprentice that fetches a Cheese at bosoms inn) and from thence plentifully distribute chaff and chopped hay to the cakling goose his audience. Your presbyterial Discipline is likely to be established for the space of three yeares, if the Treaty conclude well betwixt the King and Parliament, but then or before that I prognosticate it shall not continue; 'tis already so cried down, and the kingdom is afraid and weary of it, even before they have it, as observed to be most cruel, and seditious cruel; for what is the Discipline of the kirk of Scotland? Bu● all severity and inhuman cruelty, and barbarism. The horn a punishment not fit for Turkish Salv●s, much less for Christian souls. And with what rabid eagerness did your Grandfather John Calvine prosecute Michael Servet at G●neva, whose History and death,( himself being the author of the merciless Execution he writ: Nor was he more favourable to Valentinus gentiles, his own Disciple, who by Mr. Calvins instigating the Magistrates, was condemned to death; but recanting his heresy, Valentinus contrary to his Oath got secretly out of Geneva, when r●lapsing into his old errors, he was put to a miserable death at barn in Switzerland. Notwithstanding many have accused Calvin of most erroneous positions against the goodness o● God, as also the dignity of our Saviour Christ his son. Likewise your Presbyterian, or Puritan Faction raised this present or eleventh Persecution, as our often cited author calls it, against the Protestant Church, and because you woul kill two birds with one boult, you involved with them the Papists. How seditious and dangerous to Commomwealthes you have been, Germany, the Low Countries, France, and Holland testify. The bellows and Bontifews to kindle and blow the Coal●s of Rebellion, mutiny and dissension have been your Chamber Lecturers, and Tub-preachers, and the onely way for Magistrates to secur● Commonwealths, is either to inhibit such Assemblies, or take special care contentious and railing Sermons be not made, which stir up the people not to devotion, or deeds of ch●rity, and mutual love; but to dislike of the present government in the Commonwealth, discipline in the Church, contempt of Magistrates, and hate of their spiritual Pastours: This was foreseen, and foretold by D. Laud Archbishop of Canterbury,( a man of great parts, and much foresight) who in his book against F. Fisher prognosticates the overthrow of his Protestant church by the active and pragmatic Puritan. cyril lately Patria●k of Constantinople is a ●resh example of the tumultuous, and unquiet spirit of puritanism. He kept correspondence with G. Abbot, predecessor to D. Laud, and sent his Nephew into England to be thr●oughly indoct●●na●ed in the Principles of calvinism, which he attempted to b●ing amongst the Grecians; but being accused of new fangled Novelties, he was thrust out of his patriarchal Throne, and lastly by command of the grand signior had his head cut off from his shoulders; the Turkish Emperour being informed how da●gerous the Calvinian doctrine is to Monarchike Government.  mayor. 
Suppose what you said were true, yet as far as I can perceive your Independency is more opposite, and pernicious both to Monarchy, as also all other forms of government, whether civill, or ecclesiastical: but I pray before you answer me, speak what an Independent is.  Freeman. 
I will upon condition you tell me what ● Pro●estant is, which appellation your Anabaptist, Brownist, Pu●i●●n, Independent, Antinomian, and many other Sects claims, all challenging to b● the true Protestant Church. Consult with the Bishop of Armach, doctor Pride●ux▪ B. of Worcester, and learned Dr. Holdsworth but take heed of committing an arabic Scopelism●. That a Purita● should be a strangers Angel, a Neighbours plague, a Saint abroad, a devil at home, is our Authors, though a most bitter character: But to your question, because the true Independent thinks it a thing unreasonable, that Christians should be persecuted for their consciences; therefore Atheists, who have no consciences, Jews, and the scum of all Sects assume to themselves the title of Independents, that under that shadow and name they may shelter their God denying Doctrines, and soul destroying Principles: Whereas the nature of true Independency is so copiously furnished with abstruse quiddities, rare perfections, and sublime formalities, that the characte●isme of the Concrete must emulate Lactantius his description of Archimedes sphere, and Maximus Tyrius negative expression of the D●ity▪ and divine pulchritude.  
A true Independent therefore is a terrestrial Angel, divinely spirited, who in this multiplicity of Religions, with much care, labour, and devout invocation of the onely Independents aid, makes an inquiry which is the true Church, in which the believers may be saved▪ out of which inevitable ruin is to be feared; nor does he in this search depend on his own abilities, but rely on the testimonies of sacred Scriptures, i● helped with the consent of learned Fathers, and holy doctors: Having found that conspicuous City on the Mount, he incorporates himself a Member of the same, firm●ly resolving, that neither love of life, or fear of death, no tribula●ion, no persecution shall make him forsake his union with that body, nor separate him from the love of God which i● in Christ Jesus. He u● nobly prepared to suffer the worst death for the profession of his faith; yet piously abhors any should undergo the least vexation for his Religion. He do's, or do's not to his N●ighbours▪ as he desires to be dealt with by them. He can with a magnanimous mind suffer wants, and content with his own mediocrity, he will not flatter great Ones, be no slave to their humours, nor active instrument to bring about their indirect ends: So long as he is in debt, he accounts himself no freeman, but dependent on his creditor, therefore makes hast to redeem himself. He can and dares fight with a Foe, but knowing his own disordinate passions, vicious habits, unbrideled appetites, more dangerous enemies esteems an Independency from their tyrannick laws, and impetuous sway, the happy fruit of his combats with, and Victories over them.  mayor. 
I could wish myself enroled in the list of such Independents as you have described. But we have onely heard of Xenophons Prince, Platoes Common wealth, Tullies orator, and our Sir Thomas Mores well Ordered Utopia.  Freeman. 
Do you conceive these were never extant? surely, many Histories make mention of Cyrus, a monarch of many kingdoms, a Prince according to Zenophons institution, in whom his subjects were happy, but the barbarous Massag●tes envying both his and their happiness, surprised and detained him in dur●nce; where he comported himself with that prudence and magnanimity, that his fetters( like King Agrippaes go●den chain) more became him then his imperial diadem. Tis true, Justin out of Herodotus, relates this victorious monarch was overthrown and ●laine by the Scythian queen. The Calipolitans in Greece observed Platoes laws and form of government, at what time Philip banished out of Macedon all the skellums and raska●s of his Country, and compelled them to live in a City which he had built purposely for them called Poneropolis, that is the Town of Knaves. These plundering Varlets with an anslaught took Calipolis, killed man, woman and child, ransack●, and fired the town: since which time, never any Common wealth was governed according to Platoes institution. The Romans often heard Tullies orator divinely preach, till Fulvia tha● wicked woman cut out his tongue, for Philippizing her husband the Triumvir. Lastly, Sir Thomas More erected his Utopia in terra incognita, adjoining to Mar del ZUR, and some Columba, Vesputius, or Sir Francis Drake hereafter may discover it. Now for my Independent, I must confess thousands lay claim to that title, but never attain to the dignity; yet there are in●umerous qualified wi●h this celestial heat, a communicated particle of that divine fire. Who after they have long laboured to purchase Rachel, mary indeed the same beau●iful Lady( true Independency) and are not cozened by Laban with blear eyed Leah, And as there is a vicissi●ude in humane ●ff●ires both spiritual and temporal. In queen Elizabeths reign, Religion was quiter altered( the old Clergy excluded) a new Ministry with Prelates instituted; I know not by what means you have now cried them down, expelled, and turned them out of doors, and have your triennial sway: Before that be expired, you must give my heroic and ingenuous independents leave to come in play, extrude you, and institute a to be admired republic both in Civill and ecclesiastical administration. And then never fear to be put to the horn, carry fagors, or in a caroche take your journey to tyburn. No, every man shall si● quietly under his own Vine, and blithly chant hymns of his own composing, better me●red and far more melodious then those of Hopkins, Sternehold, and put in Robert wisdom too. Weele have no Sesquiped●lian Church man make his Reader groan a● the hyperbolical title of the twelfth persecution, in the mean time KA me, and I'll KA THEE; give us licence to enjoy our Religion, weele grant you leave to use your liberty of conscience.  mayor. 
Indeed I have much wondered why the author would style his book, the eleventh Persecution.  Freeman. 
Observe, in one onely ROME, within the space of little more then 200. yeares were abouts 300000. Martyrs bloodily butchered, besides what numbers were massacred in other patts of the roman Empire: What cruel persecutions did the Arians raise against the catholics under Constantius, Valens, Gensericus, and other Princes infected with that heresy? Weele come lower, and nearer home. Compare this Puritan Persecution of the Protestant Church with King Henries cruelties against both Protestant and catholics: queen Maries punishments of Protestants, and this, shall scarce appear a silly fleabiting; for in all this Persecution, I hear not of one Minister executed, no not of a bloody nose or broken pate: I have seen more bloodshed a cudgel playing in the streets. But( you will say) their Wives were turned out of doors at midnight. Alas poor Ladies, I am sorry for them; yet 'tis not recorded in any authentic history, that any of them got an ague by that incivility, though 'tis very likely they might take could.  mayor. 
But these Parliamentary afflictions resemble Gods punishments, descending to the third and fourth Generation, of those that hate them,( such they esteem royalists, Malignants, and Papists.) Now the Ministers have wives, sons, and daughters, and many of them being aged to have daughters, who can say to their daughters, rise up daughter, &c. and the Tribe of Levi hath for patrimony benefice, Prebendaries, more proficuous, and honourable titles and revenues, all which being by the present Parliament taken away for Non-conformity, or under the title of Malignancy, many Clergy mens condition must be most lamentable, suffering in a Posterior so long continued, who are all undone in the depauperating of one single Minister, Father, Grandfather, great Grandfather to a proletarily numerous generation.  Freeman. 
truly their case is much deplorable; I am very sorry, and much commiserate any Christian should so much suffer for the profession of his Faith, which in his conscience he imagines is conformable to the sacred Scriptures, acceptable to, and authorised by GOD himself. But with the hundred Protestant Ministers thrust out of their Livings by the Puritan Faction, I will parallel many hundred Recusants turned out of doors, and all they have by a praemunire, and committed to perpetual imprisonment by Parliamentary Authority for refusing to take a captious, litigious, and Meandrovs Oath, composed by a Renegado of his faith, to make quarrels amongst Christians; condemned by the supremeff Authority and Learning in Christend●me; misl●ked by some, who when they were poor impugned it, but growing rich were stoutest Champions for it; detested even by such, who though they abhor this O●th; yet unseasonably and ridiculously make a mouse trap of it, either to en●nare consciences, or fill prisons: For why should such Justices of Peace put to, and compel ignorant souls to take this Oath of Allegiance to the King, so am●iguous in terms, so intricate in Clauses? yet they themselves by Votes, Demands, and Consultations endeavour to dethrone the same King? For refusing this schisme-making Oath, farced with so many soule-destroying Niceties how many hundred Recusants, poor and ●ich, young and old, men and women have been committed to merciless goals in, and about London, where for want of air and sustenance, they have miserable perished? With great reason Aristotle says, D●ath is the most terrible of all things. 1. Because it makes a devorce betwixt the soul and the body. Two, That have bi● long time individual companions, the soul by conversion to phantasms taking pleasure in what objects the body is delighted in, the body an officious Minister, and active instrument of all the commands,( whether jost or unjust) the soul it's queen and Mistris shall despotically impose. Secondly, a perpetual separation follows at the heels of this grim Monster, of all things most dear both to the soul and body, wife, children, friends, servants, honours, riches, dignities, offices, and pleasures. We will travail no further then, and about London, and reckon betwixt 20. and 30. Priests condemned to death, most of them executed for Religion since the beginning of this Parliament. And the circumstances of their deaths makes the Monster( ugly in his own shape) appear more horrid and ghastly. They were tried before Judges who resolved to hang them before they were tried: They were tried by a Jury of Midlesex( who starts not even at that very name?) Witnesses against them were pillored, and perjured sons of Belial, who would for five shillings swear innocent Naboth hath blaspemed God, and the King, Reg. 3. c. 21. and for ten shillings betray ou● Saviour, were he again passive, and walked under the notion of a Priest, drawn on a sledge to tyburn, they are there ●anged, their bellies ript up, and hearts being taken out of their bodies flung into the fire under the gallows; then as a Butcher cu●s up, and quarters an ox, or calf, the Priests( before mangled) carcases are cut up, and divided into four several quarters: with these disorderly tumbled, and huddled into a capacious basket, Gregory Brandon the Common Hangman returns to Newgate, sitting in Ovant pride on the ●ledge like some Triumphant Consul; but looking more terrible then dreadful Automedon, or the bloody Chariot driver of Vindictive Tomyris, all besprinkled with reeking Gore of the slaughtered Persian Monarck, the Catastrophe of this Tragedy is purboiling the four quarters in a vast brass pot, to make a prepared dish for the Fowles of the air, to which purpose they are dispersed and placed on several Gates of the City, the heads on poles over London bridge, where they hourly preach to the City, Suburbs, and country; how that fu●ction, and those men, for whom, and the exercise of which all our Churches were built, Universities erected, and colleges founded, is judged by the laws of our realm Treason, and they as traitors executed. Of seven Priests condemned together, 1641, two only survive, the rest consumed with the tediousness of a miserable imprisonment, want of air, and all commodities necessary for the sustenance of life. All of them have been divers times robbed and plundered their books, their clothes, considerable sums of money taken from them, contrary to the laws of God, and the realm, the honour of this Nation, the dignity and authority of the Sheriffes of London, to whose charge & care the Prison is concredited, & all these f●lonies done by the Parliaments Officers, to whom though Petitions were addressed for remedy, yet no redress was ever vouchsafed: in●omuch if in any, surely in this occasion may that of Seneca be verified, it is sometime a kind of mercy to kill soon. And who hath red of Ignatius the Martyrs ten Leopards accustomend to be more efferated when you are beneficial to them, will not censure these expressions too hyperbolical.  mayor. 
Me thinks the roman catholics should relieve such persons, who for their own Religion suffer in Prisons.  Freeman. 
Alas they have been so flieced, punished, and p●undered, that they have little or nothing for themselves, much less to maintain so many in prison. And if you observe, the greatest part of the kingdom groans under the title, and burden of Malignancy or Delinquency, the Papists have a third charge, namely of Recusancy put in against them. And indeed for one of these three, or all, three parts of our Gentry are quiter ruinated, and undone: Onely such who are of, and belong to the Parliament, are the golden Calves of this Age, abdomenated Bulls plentifully feeding in the ●ertile Pastures of Basan. Whereas, I know an illustrious Gentlemam, that has kept above a hundred Gallant cocks of the Game worthy to enter the lists, and fight Duels before mark Anthony, Octavian, and Lepidu● so exhausted for his Loyalty that he has scarce wherewithal to buy a lean Chicken for his dinner. You great Ladies that were wont to have their Madammoisel● Gargrave, or Egerton at a beck to mend their fall, or rectify their Periwik, are now content to have homely country Jo●ne supply the place of cook maid, Chamber maid, and Waiting Woman; yea vouchsafe sometimes to turn the spit, or scum the pot themselves. They have forgot how to sit( like the Lady Lobster) in a Coach: And onely know by tradition, that the paradise of Pleasure( Spring Garden) and Groves of Adonis( hid park) are extant, though like that at the frontiers of Eden, theres an enlivening Zone debars all access to them: Wherefore a Voyage now, and then to the Stillyard, or a Pilgrimage on foot to Totnam-Court is a very grateful and much wished for recreation. Yet in all these calamities( desolate beauties) do they not forget their wonted devotions; but with much zeal say their prayers backward for the Parliament( the cause as they imagine of all their miseries) and heartily desire God will amend this wicked World,  
FINIS.