A CONFERENCE BETWEEN Two Protestants AND A PAPIST; Occasioned by the Late Seasonable Discourse.  
Anno Dom. 1673.   

To the Reader.  
AS Chance is sometimes more lucky than Design, an unexpected Re●contre has discovered more to me of the Inside of Papists, than I could ever learn by Enquiry. I carried a Friend o● mine to a Coffee-house, with no farther thoughts, than to divert myself for half an hour, and oblige him by ●n entertainment of little expense. In a corner of ●he Room I observed a Papist, one whom I had long known, alone and pensive, entertaining himself with his thoughts and pipe, and little minding the rest of the Company, which was all seated some distance from him. The convenience of the place invited us to sit down by him, and there happened a discourse betwixt us, which I here communicate to you, as near as I can in the 〈◊〉 words in which it passed, at least I am confident not differing in substance: for as soon as we parted I went immediately home, and writ it down, and as my memory was then fresh, and my attention had been great, I believe I have omitted nothing which was material. To avoid repetitions I will put an F. for my Friend, a P. for the Papist, and for myself an N. After the usual passages of civility were ended, I began the Discourse in this manner.   

A Conference, etc.  N. 
I Am sorry to observe your pensiveness. Will you permit me to guests at the cause, and tell you, I suspect the late Seasonable Discourse may have some share in it?  P. 
I was indeed thinking of that Book.  N. 
Truly I cannot blame your trouble. That Gentleman has treated you something severely; and if a Book which brings you so much shame, bring you some sorrow too, you may be pardoned.  P. 
I must confess I was very sorry to see that Book, though for other reasons, it may be, than those which you imagine. But why do you think it so shameful to us?  N. 
Why, is it not a great shame to be such stiff Enemies ●s you are to so glorious a Church as the Church of England; and such stiff maintainers of so stupid a Religion as yours is?  P. 
For my Religion, this is no place to give account of it. There are Books enough which treat of that Subject. Only, since you are acquainted with me, I appeal to yourself, whether you do in earnest believe me so stupid as to be given to Idolatry, or Superstition, or the belief of Stories as impossible as Amadis de Gaul or the Knight of the Sun, which that Gentleman charges on us.  N. 
I must declare I think better of you. But you cannot deny your e●●●●ty to the Church of England.  P. 
I am ●a● from being an Enemy to it.  F. 
By your favour, Sir, your principles are so fitted to the greatness of your great Spiritual Monarch, that you cannot be friends to any Church but ●is, no not ev●n of your own communion. For you hold that nothing, upon the matter, can be done in matters o● Religion, but what is done at Rome. A Convocation not called by allowance from thence, is thought but a Conventicle. A Bishop cannot be made, a Canonry, a Rectory granted, no Dispensation given, no Ecclesiastical Authority exercised, but the Pope must be at one end. I say nothing of our controversial Differences, because I perceive you are not willing to meddle with them. But 'tis plain that while you hold thus, all but Italians, and those of the Pope's Territories too, must needs be back friends to the Churches of their Native Countries. Nay, you are within a little of leaving no Churches to which you might be kind. For what is a Church without Authority? And if all Authority be in the Church of Rome, she is the only Church, and all the rest but so many Parishes of her large Diocese, so much the worse to be governed, by how much they are farther distant from the only true Bishop: for the rest will have no more than the name.  P. 
How little do you understand how the world goes? 'Tis ●rue, there are of my Religion who are possessed with this fancy, that unless the Bishop of Rome intervene almost in every thing, nothing is well done. And this I believe happens in a great measure, from a p●ece of Policy the greatest that ever has been practised in that Court. At least I have been informed so by one who assured me he learned so much at Rome itself, and that from a Regular too. And that is, the Exemptions which have been granted to most Regulars, and many Chapters, which have been exempted to a great degree from the Jurisdiction of their respective Bishops, and subjected immediately to the Pope. These Communities thus exempted, are obliged for their own Interest, and to preserve the advantages which they enjoy by exemption, to magnify the Power which exempted them. By which means, both they themselves are brought to depend on the Pope alone, and Bishops too, who, all dependence on them being thus taken away, are left weak and defenseless, and unable to maintain their due Authority. I cannot tell whether the Jealousies of Princes, peradventure suspicious of too much Authority in their Subjects, have no● much contributed to this effect. For I see that in some places they have made particular agreements with the Pope, against the inclinations, and even Remonstrances of their own people, according to which their Bishops are forced to regulate themselves. However it be this Paramount, Omnipotent (if I may so call it) Authority of the B●shop of Rome has been cried up so much, and so long, and by so many, and those so much concerned (though thought disinteressed by the vulgar) that it has now gained a great vogue, and passes among those who look not into things, for unquestionable. And yet the vogue is much less now than heretofore, before our Countryman Occam began to write in behalf of Lewis of Bavaria. Notwithstanding still there are who think the cry greater than the wool, and even complain and wish for remedy. That Author, and you after him look upon this as part of my Religion, when alas! how many are there of my Religion who look upon it as a grievance? They were of my Religion who made the several S●atures of Provisors and Praemunire, which alone would serve for answer to a good par● of the Book in question. However they declare there very plainly that the interposing of the Court of Rome, and this even in presentments to Benefices or at least cogn●●●nce of the Plea, translation of Bishop●, etc. (which be matters Spiritual enough) are clearly against the King's Crown and his Regality used and approved of the time of all his Progenitors— That the Crown of England hath been so free at all times, that it hath been in no Earthly Subjection, but immediately subject to God in all things, touching the regality of the same, and to none other— And God defend, say they, it should be submitted to the Pope (as by the interposing aforesaid they declare it would) and the Laws and Statutes of the Realm by him defeated and avoided at his will— Besides, that they will stand with the King, his Crown and Regality in the cases aforesaid, and in all other cases attempted against him, his Crown and Regality in all points to live and die. I know not, but methinks 'tis very strange that People should be suspected of disaffection to their National Church, and this out of too much affection to the Pope, who a low not the Pope to meddle so much as with the most inconsiderable Benefice of the Nation. I conceive it is the right of every N●tional Church to provide for the particular concerns of that Nation, without any necessity of recourse to Foreigners. Sure I am that we who live now, are as true Englishmen as our Ancestors, and love Foreigners no more, nor think ourselves tied to more subjection to them. If the State would think fit to allow us Englishmen, s●ch of who●e fidelity and affection to their Country they were well assured, to whom we might have recourse for our spiritual concerns, we should quickly remove their jealousies that we are over much affected to Strangers.  F. 
If you be so little affected to Strangers, why do you not enter into t●e communion of the Church of England?  P. 
While our controversial differences remain undecided, if we come, we must come with bad Consciences▪ and I suppose the Church of England would not admit of Hypocrites. Neither indeed is it for her safety to receive those who do not believe as she doe●.  F. 
If we must not expect you till the differences of Religion be determined, I expect you not till Doomsday. People have writ and writ these hundred years, and the more they write, the further we are from agreeing. The end of Controversy and the end of the World I believe will happen both in one day.  P. 
With any other Church of the Reformation perhaps it might be as you say: but I do not think the Controversies betwixt the Church of England and us so irreconcilable as you imagine. And for this reason understanding Catholics are more affected to her than any Church of the Reformation. She began the Separation in an orderly way, and free from those tumultuous violences which happened in other places. And as things carried by deliberation are always better done, than when they are hurried on by heady ra●●ness, though we think she has gone t●o far, yet I believe her moderation has preserved what may one day help much to closing the breach betwixt us, when God's providence shall employ men about it who truly desire it.  F. 
Pray what do you mean by this?  P. 
I mean more than I shall perhaps upon the sudden remember. You must be contented with what occurs. F●rst we o●●●●ve that she, and peradventure she alone, has preserved the face of a continued mission, and uninterrupted Ordination. Then i● Doctrines her moderation is great▪ She professing, not positively to disbelieve, but only not to believe most, i● not ●ll, points in difference betwixt us; and in th●se of greatest concern has expressed herself very warily and so that her words may be brought to ●uit with our belief; unl●●● where to gratify, I suppose other dissenters, some harsh expression has been inserted beyond the intention of the first compilers of her Doctrines. In Discipline she preserves the Government by Bishops, agreeing in that point, which is of great concern, so alone with the Church of Rome, th●t when the Reformation met in the Synod of Dort, the English, I ●hi●k, were the only Bishops there. But above all we prise in h●r the aversion she has from Fanaticism, and that wild error of the private Spirit with wh●ch 'tis impossible to deal, since what they believe to day they may disbelieve tomorrow. From this absurdity the Church of England desi●es to keep he● self free. She holds indeed that Scripture is the Rule of Controversy; but she hol●s withal, Tha● it is not o● private interpretation. She is for Vin●●ntius Lyrine●sis, Quod ab omnibus, quod semper quod ubique; and we are for the same. Our Controver●ists ind●●d generally ●●y, That Tradition is the Rule, and when this comes to be scanned I believe it will be found, the true difference is more in words than meaning; at least it may soon and easily be seen which of the two sp●ak more properly. However while we both agree in that method of Vincentius, which is an open visible way, and has nothing of the private ●ancy, miscalled the Spirit, methinks ' twe●e no ●●ch impossible thing to take our Controversies one by one and try them by that Test. We shall not insist upon what is not Vincentian p●o●●, and what is sh● professes to ●m●race as well as we.  N. 
I m●st confess I did not reflect on ●o much bef●●e. But methinks so many learned and good men ●aving spent their time in the study of these things, they must needs have thought of all which can be thought on. And since we see no effect of all their medi●ations, I cannot but think there must of necessity be more in the case, some impossibility or other which has scaped your observation. Otherwise why should the breach last so long, if it may so easily be closed up?  P. 
I am not so vain to imagine I see all that can be seen. I tell you w●at appears to me. It may be there may be something which appears not. But I wish it were put to trial, and learned and unpassionate men employed to consider what might be done. Men o● animosity and stiffness, do more harm with their bitterness, than the● can do good with their learning. But if people would once l●y aside their passions, and not look upon one another as enemies, they might peradventure quickly cease to be so. You must needs perceive that the weak and the fierce, are a great deal more numerous than the Judicious and the calm. When any thing is said or written on either side, which by good handling might be improved to some degree of reconcilement, generally there steps in some or other of the former sort, (as the more ignorant and passionate a man is▪ the more rash and busy he is too) and by his fiery zeal not only chokes the seed of any good overture, but for the most part makes things worse than they were before. 'Tis possible there may be some who do not desire Contentions should be ended; whether it be from a perverseness of nature, or the consideration of some particular Interest. But I see with grief that moderate counsels have been discountenanced on both sides. Even this Author himself has a fling at Pacific writers.  F. 
And has he not reason, when those peaceful pretences are but baits to catch the unwary Proselyte, who when he is once hung, there is no getting loose again, but concessions are retracted, the painted shows washed off; and he has nothing left but a fruitless repentance.  P. 
As if we had any Prisons in which to keep men against their will, and every man were no● free to leave us when he pleases; as I suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded. 'Tis likely you may know some; pray inquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us, than they were made acquainted with before. Here is that Author's affirmation, and my denial; believe neither of us, but satisfy yourself, of those who can speak of their own knowledge.  N. 
I am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine; but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good. And that is because you are, and must be always Enemies to the State. Believe me our Church will no more harbour Traitors than Hippocrites.  P. 
Enemies to the state, and Traitors. God forbid.  N. 
Be not offended at the harshness of my Language, which I use not for malice, but to speak properly, and call things by their own names. 'Tis not t●at I charge you with actual Treason, but with Doctrines which will make you traitors when ever they be put in practice. And in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual Traitor, and one who is ready to be so, as soon as there is occasion.  P. 
Truly I think there is not.  F. 
If you think so, I do not see how you can be excused, That power which the Pope claims to depose Kings, and d●●pose of Kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of Princes, and quiet of Kingdoms, that you must needs see you cannot be good Subjects, while you believe it. Neither can you be Papists if you believe it not. The Pope will no more endure you not to hold it, than States can be safe where you do.  P. 
This is a Topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists. It has been often objected and as often answered. Since you oblige me to speak of it, let me tell you, you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things. If the Pope should break w●th all, who believe no● that Power in him, he would quickly have but a thin Communion. I am yet to learn the na●e and situation of that Country which believes it.  F. 
How of that Country? As if it were not believed in all Countries of your Communion. And that we may not doubt of it, Bellarmine (against Barclay) produces writers of all Countries who maintain it, I think he musters them up to 72▪ but sure they are not like the Disciples butonly in number.  P. 
Bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position, and makes as good a show as he can. From the beginning of the world, or rather from Gregory 7th. who is his first man, he has found out the number you mention, and others cite twice as many against ●i●, some the very same alledg●d by him. How pertinently on either sid● we cannot now examine. But I never th●●●ht of denying, those Doctrines may be found in Books; I deny there is any Nation to be found which believe them. Author's m●y ●●ite, and yet find few who give credit to what they say. If we would know what people believe, we must consider what they do, not what Scholars write. For let them write upon what motives they will, people certainly act according as they are persuaded. Now to come to particulars, there are few Nations, where the Neighbourhood gave opportunity, but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the Pope. The Spaniards, who are thought the most devoted to him, have taken h●m Prisoner. The D●ke of Atva himself commanded an Army against him, and forced him to his terms of Peace. The Venetians, not to mention other breaches, were so resolute in their contest with Paul 5th, that it came to an Interdict: And they neither obeyed it, nor would be brought by any solicitation of powerful Mediators to accept of absolution. Other Princes of Italy have been at wars with him, and that lately in the times of Vrban the 8 h. and Innocent the 10th. Of the French we shall speak by and by; but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him, as any other. Which of all these Princes has been deserted by his Subjects, or found them less ready to stand by them against the Pope, than against another man? Had they indeed believed aright in the Pope, to dep●●e Princes, and dispose of Kingdoms, they must needs taken his part; and left their own Princes defenceless▪ But you see no such thing has happened, and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power. The pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action, when people can get no better; but I am confident there is no Prince or people in the world, who truly believe it.  F. 
Truly, I know not what to say to you, what you allege is manifest, and known to the world; though I did not reflect on it before. But how comes it that Doctrines so little believed are so openly maintained, and so maintained, that they are altogether in vogue, and the contrary hardly find maintainers.  P. 
The contrary Doctrine never wants maintainers, when there is occasion; neither are they the less numerous, or the less considerable, for making the less noise: whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the Pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him, which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill. And so we let people talk as they please, till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think. And then it plainly appears that the sense of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cried up. Neither are the maintainers even among writers so few, as you imagine. I am sure in our Nation there have been more Catholic Writers against it than for it. Thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to Queen Elizabeth, even alter the Bull of Pius the 5th. came o●t: to whom▪ says Widdrington, thrice thirteen would willingly have been added, had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession. And when Campian, Sherwin, and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the Questions, about the Power of the Pope and Queen, one john Bishop, a man devoted to the See of Rome, (says Mr. Cambden) wrote against them, and fondly proved that that constitution of the Lateran Council obtruded under that name, upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance, and deposing Princes is founded, is no other, than a Decree of Pope Innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in England. Yea that the said Council was no Council at all, nor was any thing at all there decreed by the Fathers.  F. 
But why do Princes permit the course of such Doctrines, which cannot but be dangerous, if ever the people should come to be persuaded of them, as if they go on unchecked, 'tis like enough they one day will.  P. 
As if I would give account of the couns●ls of Princes, or should think it fit, though I could▪ I suppose they find it for their interest; according to which, wise Princes take their measures, and having many intrigues with the Pope, judge it advantageous to please him with words, which they see have little credit with the wise. When there is any occasion of contest, they know well enough that the wise will sway the rest. It may be they have at some time or other, made use of that pretence themselves, or foresee some occasion wherein they may. But neither is it true, that those Doctrines go curran● ev●ry where. 'Tis treason in France, to Print, or disperse, or so m●●h ●s keep the Books wh●ch have been condemned for maintaining 〈◊〉. ●nd his very Book of Beauties, which you have 〈◊〉 j●st now, is one. Besides all the●r Univ●si●ies have solemnly and particularly condemned them, as pernicious, and ●ere ●ab●● contrary to the word of God, etc. The Decrees bot● of Parliament and Universities have been so often published that you must needs have seen them.  F. 
I must confess I have.  P. 
Why then you see tho●e Doctrines are not maintained every where, nor any condition of Catholic Communion any where. The Pope communicates freely with the French for all this, and so does the rest of the world. Which perhaps may be one reason why th●y are the less forward to condemn them in other places. For they see, ●hey can never pa●s for Catholic, so much as in the opinion of the people, while so considerable a part of the Church so openly disavows them. Wherefore, reserving to themselves the liberty to do as they see fit upon occasion, t●ey are willing to gratify the Pope in the mean time, and let Scholars talk as they please,  F. 
But pray what do you think of those Doctrines your s●l●?  P. 
What should I think, but that they are false and naught?  F. 
And why do you not then disclaim them?  P. 
You see I do.  F. 
I mean publicly,  P. 
Because it is to no purpose, and I fear would look as oddly as the request of the Cutpurse, who went to the Constable and and would needs be set in the P●l●ory by him; where when the flocking multitude ●o●d gazing and laughing at the man's folly, his Companions pic●t all their pockets. Shall I deal plainly with you! 'Tis you your s●●ves who are the cause that the●e Doctrines are not renouncd', o● wh●ch you pretend such fear.  F. 
We● who are perpetually pressing you to renounce them, and therefore deal the more unkindly with you, because, ●i●l you do it we cannot think you honest men.  P. 
And when we have given you satisfaction, pray what more kindness would you, or can you by Law show us? The Law makes no difference betwixt a Papist who renounces, and a Papist who holds those Doctrines; neither is there any Penalty from which that renunciation would exempt him. On o●r side you know as well as we, there are some who have more kindness for them then fitting. It cannot otherwise be, but these men will look very untowardly on any who by such a public renunciation shall condemn their persuasions, especially if he be neither obliged, nor so much as invited to do it. Some of them have been passionate and rash, and will be apt to revenge themselves, by clamours and harsh censures, and peradventure cause intelligence to be given even at Rome, where as they are very tender in this point, and very impatient of anything which they conceive shocks their authority, you may be sure they will do all that comes in their way to discountenance such a man, and work his discredit, and it may be discomfort. On the other side, you take no care to give him any manner of protection, or so much as countenance; but leave him to shift as well as he can for himself, without any ease from the burden to which he is otherwise subject. As your heats a● present, and often, are very great against us, none knows but he may at last be turned a begging, and be forced to seek relief in foreign Countries, whe●e Charity is like to be very cold to him, against whom the Pope is incensed. What ever people think in their hearts,) they will show but little countenance to him against whom the Pope declares himself. Who would gratify you upon these terms, when a man is sure to live uncomfortably with those of his own Communion, and receive no relief from you, forwhose sake he runs into that inconvenience? A● you carry matters, 'tis hard to be imagined otherwise, but ●hat whatever you say, you are in truth unwilling those Doctrines should be renounced, perhaps lest you lose something to say against us. Do bu● provide that he who satisfies you in this particular, and r●nounce● those Doctrines as fully as you can desire, be cherished with some moderation, and taken into the protection of the Laws, and then be angry freely with those that refuse to do it. M●ke them Treason, if you will, h●re, as they are in France, fo● any concern I have in them.  N. 
M● thinks you do yourself much wrong, to keep these things concealed If every body knew as much as you have told us, perhaps the heats of which you complain might cool, and people be less incensed against you.  P. 
I tell you no secrets. These things have been published over and over and over again, but no notice is taken of them. This Author objects these Doctrines as freely, as if nothing had ever been said to the●. And yet considering how well he is acquainted with all sorts of books, sure he must needs know we areas ready to renounce them, as he is● forward to object them.  F. 
I must confess you speak like an honest man; but yet you answer for no more than yourself. You may be, and I believe are innocent; but you cannot deny there are among you men of other principles. And ●t would not be safe, for the sake of a few good, to cherish perhaps a great many bad  N. 
Nay Sir, I cannot agree with you there. If you think it not safe, to protect the bad in respect of the good, I am sure it is not just to punish the Good, for the faults of the Bad. We bl●me them for holding these Doctrines: What can we have more more of them, than to renounce them? Those who do this no●estly and fairly, without tricks or starting holes, what have we to say against them? God forbid we should imitate the unreasonable severity of those Nations, which when one man commits a fault, punish ●oth him, and all his relations, though never so innocent. 'Tis no such hard mat●er to discern which are fit for mercy, and which not; and I wish others may think so too, and hope they will. But though I am in this particular, as I hope I always shall be, a friend to Truth, I must needs declare to you I am no friend to Popery. When I consider the many inconveniences which the Seasonable Discourse has well observed, I believe we cannot be too follicitous to keep it out. Pray what think you?  P. 
I think 'tis strange you should be so little acquainted with men, who live amongst you, and with whom you converse every day. The understanding part of those whom you call Papists, have peradventure as little inclination to Popery as yourselves, and would join heartily with you, if there were occasion, to keep it out: especially if they were indulged such a proportion of mercy as might make them live with comfort. For while men live uneasily, I cannot say but they may have some inclinations to be at ease.  F. 
How! Papists keep out Popery! you may as soon persuade me, that Fire will keep out Heat.  P. 
I know not what credit I have to persuade you, but I tell you nothing but what I certainly know. Pray cast your eye a while on our Neighbours the Hollanders, no Fools in matters of Government. They make a shift to alarm us with fears of Popery, which being an odious thing, they think proper to cause jealousy among us, and serve their ends; but their actions manifest that they believe nothing less. They have a greater number of Papists than we have. They are a considerable part of their Country, equal if not superior to any one party. Whatever the Hollanders say to amuse us, they are so far from being disquieted with fears of Popery themselves, that they take the very Priests into the protection of the Magistrate, and give the rest a comfortable indulgence: not out of carelessness, but because they are secure. For while the Papists have no pinching dissatisfactions to make them wish to change, they see well enough that they will not think of embroiling things, and upon uncertain hopes of a condition which cannot be much happier than the present, hazard to make themselves very unhappy by losing the present. So that till the Papists can convert the whole Nation one by one, the States see their Religion will never be in other terms than it is, and that is so unlikely, that she never has the least suspicion of it. For this desire to make Proselytes, which is common to all as well ●s Papists, gains and loses particulars, but advances little in the general. Experience shows the progress of either side is inconsiderable, and the benefit to the State very much. The Papists upon many occasions having been found as faithful to the State, as any of their fellow Subjects. Even at this time, while they have War with a powerful Enemy of that Religion, and who has lodged a powerful Army in the bowels of their Country, they find the Papists as fast to the interest of the State, as the best, and as earnest opposers of a Foreign Power, though likely to introduce their Religion, if it should prevail.  F. 
I am apt to believe that ease might hinder you from desiring change; for men therefore change because they are uneasy. But 'tis still incredible to me that you should in earnest ever resist Popery. 'Tis a Forregn Enemy, not Popery, which the Holland Papists oppose.  P. 
But that Foreign Enemy, if he were suffered to come in, wou●d bring Popery along with him. But let us understand one another. I conceive you mean by Popery what the word sign●fi●s, a blind addiction to the Pope, and what this Discourser meant, viz. something which is attended with those inconveniences he mentions. And I can assure you those among us that understand things, and know how to distinguish Religion from Abuse (I will not undertake for every extravagant Zealot) would be as unwilling to admit them as yourselves. Do you think us so senseless as to be willing to forfeit our birth rights? to be deprived of the benefit of our Native Laws? to submit to the Jurisdiction of Foreign Courts, and at the summons of every crafty wrangler to run a thousand miles a pettifogging? do you think those among us who are possessed of Abby-lands, (whereof many are still in the hands of P●pists, and make if not all, yet many times a great part of their Estate) would easily resign them, and beggar themselves and Posterity? Do you think us unconcerned in the wealth of the Nation, or forward with an Indian simplicity to barter gold for trifles?  F. 
But how could you help it?  P. 
Help what? we are troubled with no such grievances, nor ever mean to be.  F. 
Godamercy Reformation, which has removed those burdens.  P. 
The Statutes before mentioned eased as in part; and Hen. the 8. no great friend to the ●eformation, did the rest, and more perhaps, than were it to do again, yourselves would do. But whatever was the cause, whether Reformation, or any thing else, we are not subject unto those inconveniences now, and I believe shall never subject ourselves to them by our good wills.  F. 
Your Doctrines would subject you to them in spite of your teeth; while you believe of the Pope as you do, there is no remedy but you must let him act as he does. While you acknowledge him Head of the Uuniversal Church, you must grant him power to make Laws for the Universal Church, and when he makes them, you must obey them. Therefore he may cross and weaken the Laws of any particular Nation, and remove proceedings to his own Court as he pleaseth. You must either absolutely renounce him, or enslave your Country: for this avoidable follows from what you believe.  P. 
I thought I had believed my share of the Pope; but I am sure I believe no such matter; and ●m sure my Catholic Ancestors believed as little as 〈◊〉. No remedy say you? Does the Statute of Praemunire be●ore mentioned, signify nothing? no● the severe penalties elsewhere enacted against all of what condition soever which shall draw any out any out of the Realm, in plea whereof the cognizance belongeth to the King's Court, or whereof judgements be given in the King's Court, or which do sue in any other Court to defeat or impeach the judgement given in the King's Court? Behold how much we think ourselves obliged to foreign jurisdiction, and how forward we are to enslave our Country. This is no place to dispute the Pope's Authority. Controversy does as ill in a Cough h●use as Policy. But it seems n● hard matter to distinguish Primacy from Omnipotency, and 'tis easy to see he may be Head, and yet cannot force Laws on particular places without their consent. Hen. 8th was by Statute declared Head of the Church of England. That Ti●le hath been since changed into Supreme Governor, which in my opinion, amounts to the same. However, neither the one nor the other enables our ●●●ngs to make Laws without the consent of their Subjects If you look into Countries of the Pope's Communion, I do not believe that you will find any one, where they think themselves obliged by any Law made at Rome, purely by virtue of that Authority. They always examine it themselves, and if they think it convenient, they receive it, and that reception makes it binding; otherwise, no man regards it, or thinks himself obliged by it, and perhaps would be punished if he should. The Discourser mentions the Canon Law, which here we ourselves do not wholly reject; and when we do, must undo Doctors-Commons. Now I understand not that the Cannon Law is obliging farther than it is received, or that any Country is obliged to receive it, farther than as they find it for their convenience. Every Nation is at liberty to do what appears best for themselves And therefore we see what is binding in one place, signifies nothing in another. And since England is now free from the Cannon Law, more than she finds for her benefit, assure yourselves Papists would be as unwilling to part with that freedom as Protestants. We love not to thrust our necks into Yokes more than other people. I think indeed, if any decrees for the advantage of our Country were sent from Rome, we should not refuse a benefit, merely because it came from thence. But we do not believe that what comes from thence, is obliging purely because it comes from thence; but only, when after due examination, by due authority at home, it is by that authority made obliging. And this holds, not only in decrees of Popes, but of Counsels too, though never so general. Nations admit them as they like them, and so either receive all, or part, or none. Every body knows that no inducements have yet been able to prevail with the French to receive such Canons of the Council of Trent as concern manners. For which reason no man there is obliged to these decrees or any such, but where they will oblige themselves.  F. 
What you say is really considerable. But I fear it does not quite do the Business. There is a great difference betwixt Laymen, and Clergimen. The Laity may be well enough affected to the peace of their Country, to which they give their Wives and Children for Pledges; but the Clergy have no such hostages to give, and besides are so tied by Education, and, if they aim at any preferment that is considerable, by Oath to the Bishop of Rome that we cannever be secure of them. Shall I deal freely with you, and tell you an unwelcome truth? 'Tis for the Clergies sake, that we are the more jealous of you all. We could believe the Laiety honest enough. But considering the influence the Clergy has over them both by the respect which you bear them, and by the ty of Confession, by which they are enabled to do even what they please, we can never be secure of one, unless we were secure of both. Now for your Regular Clergy, yourself acknowledges the immediate dependence they have on the Pope by means of their exemptions. But we know besides, that all particulars vow obedience to their Superiors; which obedience passes for the greater virtue and more sublime perfection by how much the more blind it is. These Superiors are subject to one another, till all comes at last to the General, to whom the whole Order is absolutely subject. This General both lives at Rome, and is many ways sure enough to the Pope. So that if any one of the whole Order displease him, the General presently takes his part, and enforces the obedience vowed to himself, to whatever the Pope desires. And as we see in reason this must needs happen, so we find by experience that it does; as in the case of Walsh, Withrington, and others. Your secular Clergy, as you call them, indeed have not the same dependence, and were they left to their native liberty might do well enough. But the Pope has found out an expedient to bring them to his bow, and requires such an Oath both from Bishops and other Dignitaries, that those who take it must needs be more his Subjects than their own Princes. Wherefore pray consider whether we can in any reason have a confidence in men who, though they be well disposed themselves, are governed by such as we know are tied to the Pope's interest.  P. 
The more I should think it is for your interest to allow us such as are of good Principles, and of whose fidelity and affection to the interest of their Country you might be assured. You know as well as we that, we cannot be without Priests, and that whatever hazard we undergo, whether of estate or life, we must have some. So that unless you banish or hang us all up without more ado, while there is a Papist in England, there will be a Priest. Now while you hinder us from having men brought up in such principles as might be free from jealousy, 'tis not possible for us to do otherwise than we do: for we are forced to take such as we can get; and if they prove otherwise principled than you would have them, the fault is none of ours. As for the objections, that vow of obedience which Religious take, reaches no farther than to the better performance of the duties of that kind of life which they have chosen, and is so understood, and not otherwise, by those among them who are understanding. And if you apprehend any danger in it 'tis very easy to make provision against it. But for the Oath, which you mention, I must needs profess my ignorance▪ I have never so●n ● nor heard of it, and therefore know not what to say to it. But I know in general that no Subject can take any Oath prejudicial to the safety or service of his Native Prince, and if he do is obliged not to keep it. Neither do I think an Oath can be imposed upon the Subjects of any Prince without his consent, or at least against his con●●●●.  F. 
I easily believe you have not seen it, and that few of your Laity are acquainted with such things. But, Sir, we are better versed in your matters than you imagine. I think I have a copy of i● rendered into English at this time about me. Yes, here it is. Pray read it, and see if we have not reason to be jealous. And if you doubt of the Translation, do you compare it with Original Latin, as 〈◊〉 is in the Pontificale Romanum (of Clement the 8) pro universo orbe Christiano, Printed at Antwerp 1617.  P. 
IN. Elect to the Church of N from this day forward will be faithful to B. Peter the Apostle and the H. Rom. Church, and our Lord N. Pope N. and his Successors canonically entering. I will not concur by counsel, consent or deed that they lose life or member or be unjustly taken, [mala captione] or violent hands in any manner laid upon them, or any injury done them under whatsoever pretext. I will not knowingly discover to any one to their prejudice any counsel with which they shall intrust me, either by themselves, by their Messengers or Letters. I will help them saving my Order, against all men, to keep and defend the Rom. Papacy and Regalities of S. Peter. I will treat with honour, and in his necessities help a Legate of the Apostolic See both going and coming. I will endeavour to preserve, defend, increase and promote the Rights, Honours, Privileges, and Authority of the H. Rom. Church, our Lord the Pope, and his aforesaid Successors. I will not communicate in counsel, deed, or treaty in which any thing sinister and prejudicial to their Person, Right, Honour, State and Power shall be designed against our said Lord, by the Rom. Church. And if I shall know any such thing to be treated, or endeavoured, I will hinder it to my power, and, as soon as ever I can, will acquaint our said 〈◊〉 therewith, or some body else by whom it may come to his knowledge. I will 〈◊〉 self observe, and cause to be observed by others, the Rules of the H. Fathers, the Decrees, Ordinances or Dispositions, Reservations, Provisions, and Apostolical commands. I will to my power prosecute and impugn Heretics, Schismatics, and Rebels to our said Lord and his said Successors. If I be called to a Synod, I will come, unless I be hindered by a canonical impediment. Every three years I will personally visit the shrines of the Apostles, and render account to our Lord and his Successors aforesaid of my whole pastoral Office, and of all things any way belonging to the state of my Church, the discipline of the Clergy and People, and the health of Souls entrusted to my charge, and on the other side will humbly receive and most diligently perform the Apostolical commands. If I be detained by a lawful impediment, I will fulfil all aforesaid by a special Messenger having a special Mandate to that purpose, chosen from the bosom of my Chapter, or some other Ecclesiastical Dignitary, or otherwise having some Ecclesiastical Personage; or in default of such, by some Priest of my Diocese; and if there be none of my Clergy, by some other Priest Secular or Regular, of approved virtue & Religion fully instructed in all matters aforesaid. And of such impediment I will make lawful proof to be sent by my said Messenger to the Cardinal presiding [proponert●m] in the Congregation of the Sacred Council. I will not sell, nor give nor pawn, nor mortgage anew, [infeudabo] nor alienate in any manner the Possessions belonging to my Table even with the consent of the Chapter of my Church, without consulting the Bishop of Rome. And if I do proceed to any alienation, I consent ●o ipso to incur the penalties contained in a certain Constitution set forth of this matter:  
So help me God and these H. Ghospels of God.  F. 
Well, Sir, what say you to it?  P. 
I say I would not take it for the best Bishopric in Christendom. As far as I can judge it is direct Praemunire, and perhaps worse. But pray, Sir, where did you find it? Those Princes who are of the Pope's communion are careful enough of their Authority. It seems impossible they should be ignorant of it, and incredible they should permit their Subjects to take it. I cannot believe it is in use, wherever you found it.  F. 
I have never been present at the consecration of any of your Bishops, to say of my own knowledge that it is taken: But I know it is prescribed in your Pontifical to be taken; And I suppose your Bishops are consecrated according to the prescriptions of your Pontifical.  P. 
Really, Sir, you tell me news, and such as I dare answer there is not on one (at least Lay▪) Catholic in ten thousand that ever heard of it. I will not question the truth of what you ●ay, because I do not mistrust you; and besides 'tis an easy matter when I can meet with a Pontifical to see what is there. But I must still remain of my former opinion, that 'tis not generally in use, though perhaps it may be in the Pope's own territories. The Authority of the Pontifical is no proof as to that point. For other countries have their Pontificals and Liturgies of their own framing, and that may be in the Roman Pontifical which perhaps is no where else. That 'tis of no ancient standing, is clear by the Oath itself, which mentions the Congregation of the Sacred Council, and every body knows that that Congregation was erected since the Council of Trent; and every body knows too tha● since that time Popes have not had that credit in the world that they could impose Oaths upon the Subjects of other Princes without the consent of those Princes. For England in particular, besides the Statutes beforementioned, which in my opinion quash it sufficiently, there is mention in Sir Ed Cook in his 3 book of Institutes tit. Praemuni●e, of a renunciation used even from the times of Ed. 1. and Ed. 2 in these words: I renounce all the words comprised in the Pope's Bull to me made of the Bishopric of A which ●e contrary or prejudicial to the King our Sovereign Lord and to his crown, And of that I put myself humbly in his Grace, praying to have restitution of the temporalities of my Church. This renunciation must needs be a great deal more ancient than this Oath; and since our Catholic Ancestors thought fit to renounce all words inserted in Bulls prejudicial, though to a less degree, than this Oath. However it be 'tis a clear case that being made by the Pope none can be more obliged to take it, than to receive his other Decrees, which as we have discoursed already, no Nation is obliged to do, but by free consent, as far as they find them beneficial to themselves. Wherefore as I said before, allow us Ecclesiastical Ministers, of whose fidelity you may be assured, and we will be careful enough, you may be sure not to run rashly and causelessly into Praemunires; or if we do, the Pope himself cannot blame you if you severely execute those Laws which have been made even by Catholics. But if you force us to take them upon such terms as we can get them, we are blameless if things happen which we cannot avoid.  F. 
Why but you cannot avoid this. For let us allow you what liberty we will, the Pope never make you Bishops on other terms; and you believe Bishops cannot be made but by him, or authority derived from him.  P. 
I have already told you I do not believe Bishops are made any where upon those terms, except perhaps in his own territories; but I am very certain, they need not be any where; and am farther very certain that in England they should not be, if you would allow us the liberty of acting in the concerns of Religion openly, and without such fear of the Laws that many times we do we know not what ourselves. Believe me the Pope is too wise to give occasion to examine whether Bishops may not be made without his intervening. For 'tis well known that Bishops were made, and governed the Church a long time, and he never meddled in the business. And at this day there are who will by no means use the ordinary stile, Dei & Aposholica sedis gratia, but leave Apostolica sedis quite out. The Recourse, which is now had to him, I believe was occasioned by the frequent abuses which happened in promotions, and which is thought so far from necessary even now, that, if I mistake not, the Canons are still in force, which order that unless he provide for a vacant Sea, within a time limited, and that no long one, the three next Bishops shall make one without more ado. However this collation of Bishoprics by the Pope, is plainly by Canon Law, and subject to the contingencies and nature of other Canons.  ●. 
To let pass at present, what you answer only, and me● thinks unsatisfactorily as before, of your remaining ●il● of your former opinion, so here again of your not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms, except perhaps in the Pope's own Territories: and not to press you further home on this po●nt.  
First, by telling you, not with any perhaps, or peradventure, but most certainly, that all Bishops either named, created, confirmed, or consecrated by virtue of the Pope's Bulls, not only for his own temporal Territories, but for any where else throughout the world, are made upon those terms; and that no less certainly, that very Pontificale Romanam which prescribes the aforesaid Oath to be taken by all Arch Bishops, and all Bishops, and all Abbots too, at their consecration, nay and to be taken twice by every Arch Bishop, videlicet. first, at his Consecration, and the second time at his receiving the Pallium) is no less the Pontifical now in use throughout all Churches acknowledging the Pope's Supremacy, than the Roman Breviary, and the Roman Missal are are the only Breviary and Missal now in public use in the same Churches as it is known they are.  
Secondly, by assuring you also, there are even at this present, within his Majesty's Dominions, nay in one of them, i. e. Ireland, residing now publicly enough, at home in their Dioceses, at least nine Ticular new Bishops, and ●ower also new Arch-Bishops, in all thirteen (besides two more alive still of the old Nuncio Bishops) and every one of them created by the Pope, within these four la●st years since 1669, consecrated according to the prescription of that Roman Pontifical only, and swor● the Pope's devoted Bondslaves for ever, by that very Oath; that Oath, which you please to call it, either of strictest (however sacrilegious) fidelity to the Pope, or of most perfidious Treachery against the King and Kingdom; for it is both; and you yourself will easily believe they do & will hold to it, being they are so far from thinking not only not to renounce all (nay nor any of) the words comprised in the Pope's respective Bulls, to them made of their several Bishoprics, which be contrary or prejudicial to the King our sovereign Lord and to his Crown, nor only not so much as to renounce any part of those even most notoriously Traitorous promises of the aforesaid Oath, not even so much as virtually, or indirectly, or even implicitly to renounce any part of them by taking either the usual Oaths of Supremacy or Allegiance, or even any other kind of Oath of fidelity to the King, that on the contrary it is manifestly known they have all of them ever since their Consecration, made it their work, not only to suppress utterly that now so lamed Irish Remonstrance (or profession of fidelity to the King in all temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land) presented to, and accepted by his Majesty in the year 1661., but also to prosecute with incredible malice for so many years all those other Irish ecclesiastics of their Church, who in the said year or any time since had signed (as only for having signed) that Formulory, until at last by such wicked ways they have forced most, of these forlorn subjects (forlorn I call them, because of one side persecuted by the Pope, and of the other not protected by our Laws) to retract their subscription, and consequently and even under their own hands to renounce utterly their allegiance to the King; nay even also (and which must be consequential to disclaim their acknowledgement of his being their King at all in any matter or cause whatsoever, being he cannot be acknowledged King at all, if he be not acknowledged King at least in all civil and temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land, or in indispensable Obedience and Faith be not acknowledged to be due to him in such matters, from all his Subjects.  
Thirdly, by desiring you to consider, that of all the Roman Catholics, by all right and Laws, subject to the King, the great and considerable body indeed, is only the Irish Nation, instructed now and wholly (as to point of Conscience) governed by those very Bishops and Arch-Bishops, how apt, as those instructors, so the instructed Irish generally taken, are in the present conjuncture for any kind of bad impressions, from abroad, and consequently for another, fatal revolution at home and what other probable design, then that of preparing them for a new rebellion in due time or fit opportunity at home, cou●d ther● be in those eager persecutions continued so inexorably, scandalously, and incessantly these eleven years past, both by the Court of Rome abroad, and by all its Emissaries at home, although more violently and confidently these four last years by the foresaid new Bishops and Arch-Bishops, and all their underlings and other adherents against so innocent a profession of Allegiance or promise of Obedience in temporal things on●y to the King? Nay what other probable design could there be (but that) of creating in, and commanding home too, and crowding in that Kingdom so many titular Bishops and Arch-Bishops (besides Vicar's Apostolic with Episcopal jurisdiction in so many other of the vacant Sees, and besides too so many Nunciotist Provincials of Regular Orders, and Abbots also) and that immediately upon the Duke of Ormonds' removal from that Government in the year 1669? Bishops and Arch-Bishops without Benefice, without Revenue, without Patrimony, or other means to maintain them, but what they get neither by preaching nor praying, but by poling and pilling and fleecing and flaying the poor both Priests and people under their pretended jurisdiction; though withal, I must confess, devouring even already in hopes, those indeed considerable Temporalties which the Protestant Bishops enjoy at present according to Law; Pluncket of Ardmagh 5000 l. a year old Revenue, lawfully as yet possessed by Margetson of the same See; Talbot of Dublin thetwo or 3000 l. of that See also, which Boyl or Michael Dubliniensis hath now in legal possession: and so for the rest all over Ireland respectively. Which Revenues, as they were one of the chief causes of the last Rebellion; think you they may not in all likelihood be of another yet in our days? Being those Papal Bishops hold these Royal Prelates to be mere usurpers even of those very temporal revenues, and know themselves are entitled by the Pope's Bulls not only to the spiritual Jurisciction but unto all kind of temporals belonging to their respective Sees, and were both created and commanded home to Ireland (as others, their Predecessors had been in so great number immediately before the last Rebellion in 1641) of purpose to try their fortune, or what they might do for playing the old game over again.  
And in the fourth place, by entreating you moreover to reflect on all the Particulars of the foresaid Oath, in which particulars those Papal Bishops bind themselves with so much solemnity and Sacrilege to be Traitors, certainly at least to a Protestant King, and Kingdom; unless peradventure you think that neither that neither the Pope's Canon Law, nor Council of Trent, nor Bulla Coenae, nor Court of Rome itself. nor these Bishops themselves, hold Protestants to be either Heretics or Schismatics: or that you see not how these Bishops bind themselves even to persecute to their power all Heretics & Schismatics whatsoever. And how, if they will not be and continue Traitors to the King, they must be at Rome esteemed even perjured Villains, and Rebels too against the Pope, whom they do (as they are indeed by the tenor of the said Oath obliged to) maintain to be doubtless the only Supreme Lord of Ireland (yea England, &c) both in temporals and Spirituals. Now what confidence th●nk you can be, by a Protest n King or people reposed in such men (even what ever they may chance say, or swear hereafter) who of their own free accord, nay desire, ambition, and mighty solicitation, that I may say no more, put an absolute necessity on themselves even at their holy Consecration, either to be Traitors perpetually to the King, or continually perjured to the Pope? Though otherwise, I must confess, they are by the eternal Law of God and man, and reason also, bound to be so perjured.  
I say, that to let pass at present all these considerations, and many more too, which no less materially than occasionally might be returned to your answer, videlicet, either that of your remaining still of your former opinion, or that which in effect is the same) of you not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in the Pope's own Territories: nor to press you at all with those insoluble arguments, being you not only seem to be an absolute stranger to all affairs in the Kingdom of Ireland, wherein I cannot be so, as having a good part of my estate lying there upon the account of an old Adventurer by the Act of Decimo septimo Caroli primi but you also, and indeed no less plainly then honestly condemn that wicked, Traitorous nay cruel too and barbarous Oath, (albeit indeed the chief support, nay together with the Profession of Faith, and other Oath also ther● in contained, ordered by Pius the 4th. to be ma●e and sworn both by all whatsoever Bishops, and by all Dignitaries too, yea all Canons, Parsons, Curates, all beneficed Clerkwh●tsoever that have the care of Souls, yea also by all Superiors of Monasteries, Convents, Houses, Places of Regular Orders, (understand Order not mendicant) even those also of Military Orders) the only support of the otherwise tottering Papacy: I say therefore that not to give you any more trouble at present, with those or any other such, however material replies, nor expecting any r●joynder from you to them, what I am to tell you now, is first, my own Ingenuous acknowledgement; that if but even all the rest you say be true, your Religion as it is, does not make you all stupid. And that for aught I perceive there be honest and sensible men among you. The next is, that notwithstanding all your seeming candour, I cannot thoroughly believe you, while you hold the Faith is not to be kept with Heretics. For, if indeed you hold this tenant, who can be persuaded, there is any trust so much as to your solemn promises, much less private Protestations.  P. 
Shall I give you a short answer? Being you acquit me at present of all the rest. Whoever holds so, hang him up in God's name; for no honest man will think him worthy to live. Many of you deal with us both at home and abroad; I hope you find us deal as fairly as o●her men. Not but that you may have met with Knaves: for there are Knaves and honest men of all professions. But he that cheats one of another Religion, would not spare one of his own I warrant him. As for the truth of wha● I say-, 'teasy to try. Cherish with some comfortable moderation, and take into the protection of the Law, such as shall secure you in the man●er you shall think fit, that they truly are so persuaded as I have informed you, (for I have already to●d you, that every body will be shy to offend the Pop● and not be secure so much as of protection) But show indulgence to those who shall renounce the power which you except against, to depose Kings and dispose of Kingdoms, and if the Statutes of Praemunire and the rest, be not enough, find out what more punishment you please, for those who shall receive and obey decrees sent from Rome, without allowance of the State: And for those who refuse to give you such security, treat them w●●● 〈◊〉 severity you please.  N. 
What think you Friend? to my apprehension this seems but fair. For methinks 'tis a preposterous cross piece of Wisdom, to be perpetual perpetually disquieting ourselves with fears. of Papists and not admit them to secure us against those fears. As if we were afraid not to be afraid of them: or as if it were for our t● est to keep up our jealousies, and not suffer them by any means to be taken away.  F. 
I am of the mind; but yet while people remember Queen mary days, the Powder Treason, the Massacres in France and Ireland, and Inquisition every where; things as manifest as horrid, I doubt they will always be afraid; though I see withal it is something hard to make those who live now bear the blame both of past generations, and other Nations.  P. 
You would think it yet harder, if you knew how truly we abhor such things, and how little share Religion had in them. It was the influence, which the severe humour had of King Philip had upon the Counsels of England, which brought that blemish upon Queen mary days. He was one who thought violent remedies the best, insomuch that he spared not the Ashes of a man in whose arms his own Father had yielded up his breath. By his inflexible fi●ure upon such courses He lost the Low Countries, and is become an example to the world, how little severity is proper in matters of Religion. For had the cruelty of those days been effectualy to the ends, for which it was used, you had not been now to upbraid us with it.  
Religion was not the cause of the Massacres you mention; but Fear of a powerful faction in France; and Hate of a foreign and commanding nation in Ireland. In both cases it happened indeed by chance, that there was difference of Religion, but had they been all of the same Religion, the barbarous violence would not have been less cruel. Massacres have been in other places, even in England, and where Hate, or Revenge, or any other violent passion hurries men to them, they spare their own Religion no more than another▪ Cruelty shows so ugly, that 'tis no wonder if those, who are guilty of it, desire to hide it under some handsomer vizard: and Religion being the most specious of all other, if every body take it up that can, and desire to pass rather for Zealous than Barbarous: And ●so poor Religion must be abused to disguise the Fear of France, and Hate of Ireland, and Rebellion of England, (●or here 'twas pretended too, as 'twill be in all places) and all this while is a mere pretence, and least of all aimed at by those who cry loudest out upon it. By the way, if I may speak of Ireland in particular, without the imputation of approving what passed there, for in truth I abhor those passages too much to go about so much as to excuse them, I could wish that the Author who mentions the Lord Orrery would h●ve taken some notice too of what is answered by P. W Your Author mentions two hundred thousand throats cut: P. W. affirms that my Lord himself bats half the number, and yet confidently avows, and that to the Duke of Ormond who should know, that even that number is exorbitantly vast. And I am sure I have heard from those who are well acquainted with particulars ● and ●●fficient haters of those cruelties, that they defied all the world to make good the murder of half one hundred thousand, or so much as twenty thousand, or even one thousand slain otherwise than in the Wars; and where things are so bad of themselves methinks there is no need to make them worse than they are.  
The Powder Traitors were Papists, 'tis true; and 'tis true likewise th●t that there are and always will be wicked men of all Religions. Had Papists been their Judges they would have scaped no better than they did. I think there is no more to be said of them, but this, in which I am sure all honest men agree, that the Justice of that Law which passed upon them, had more of mercy than they deserved.  
For the In quisition take my word Papists like it no more than you. But you are much out when you think 'tis every where. The Pope with all his credit cannot settle it any where but in Italy and Spain, and that with cautions enough too, except just in his own Territories, where he may order things as he pleases. Those Princes who receiveit, conceive it is for their Interest, and 'tis by their authority introduced among their Subjects, whereof I believe there are many ill satisfied with it. For us who are Englishmen, I dare answer there is not one who would not oppose it with all his power.  F. 
There is but one thing more which I shall propose to you, and that I decare is more for the satisfaction of my curiosity, then that I believe any great matter in it. But yet why do you not take the Discoursers counsel in one thing, and clear yourselves from the imputation of Sacred blood charged home upon you by the answerer of Philanax Anglicus.  P. 
It is an imputation so wild and manifestly groundless, that I do not think any understanding m●n, though never so great an Enemy to Papists, gives any credit to it. Does not all the world which side the Papists took? Inquiry has been made for the guilt of that sacred blood, and all England knows they were not Papists who were found guilty. If they had, I wonder who would protect Popish Traitors. If the Rebellion, as that Author would persuade us, was raised and fomented by the Arts of th● Court of Rome, it is as plain case that the Court of Rome had very little influence upon the Papists here●, who acted quite contrary to their designs. It is undeniable that to design the King's ruin, and at the same time to fight to preserve him from ruin, are inconsistent and impossible thin●s. To go about seriously to answer such extravagant fancies, is to give them a credit which they otherwise have not, nor can have with any man of judgement.  F. 
For all that he tells very shrewd stories, and such as he undertakes to make good.  P. 
If he can make good his understanding, I think he is no friend to his Country to let Traitors lie concealed in it, whom he can discover. Wherefore in behalf of Justice, and Reverence to that sacred Person a Loyalty to his sacred Successor, I summon him to make good what he says he can, and require at his hands that he spare none, whoever they be, but expose them all to deserved punishment. And I am confident I shall be disavowed by none of my Religion, if in this particular I disclaim all benefit of the of the Act of Oblivion for any of us. For his stories by your favour they are far from shrewd, He talks of a Priest and confessor who flourished his sword at the King's death. This story if I we●l remember, I have seen in one of Mr. Prinn's Books, and he ●athers it upon a dead man, who is sure enough will not rise again to disprove him. But as luck is, he says 'twas the Queen's Confessor And 'tis sufficiently known that the Queen's Confessor does not use to leave the person of the Queen, and 'tis more than sufficiently known that the Queen at that time was not in England. And were it to purpose, I believe there are yet living those, who can testify on their knowledge where the Queen's Confessor then was. So that 'twas something shrewdly done of the Answerer, to leave out that particular, who this Confessor was, by which the forgery of the story may be detected, and involve the matter in a general charge, which none knows how to answer; otherwise he has said nothing but what every body could see throu●h that read it in Mr. Prinn. Ag●●n he tells of 30. Jesuits betwixt Rouen and deep, who discovered strange designs to one whom they took to be of their party. And if he or any man ever saw 30 Jesuits upon a R●ad together, or if he did can fancy them to simple, as to discover their designs to men they know not, I am content he believes e'en what he pleases. Then he talk of the Friar ●s that Dunkirk, whom he makes to vy with the Jesuits, for the glory of that inhuman action; and this before an understanding Gentleman. But certain 'twas no great sign of understanding; to broach such a story, when all the world knows there neither are, nor ever were any Friars at Dunki●k, English I mean, for str●nge●s, I suppose he will not make so concerned in the affairs of our Country. He talks too of our transformations ●nto Independents to make England depend on the Pope, and fifth Monarchyst's to ruin the English Monarchy, and Agitator, and I know not what, I suppose to show he can quibble; otherwise every body le●s if we could so easily, and undiscoverably disguise ourselves, we were mad if we took not all the shape of Protestants, and so avoided the danger of the Law without more ado. For who should find us out if we could make all the wo●ld believe we were Protestants? Alas ● you know, and we know too we●l, that a Papist cannot long conceal his Religion. If these be your shrewd stories, your hate to us will let any thing p●ss; I have not seen any thing that pretends to serious, less significant, and a body would have thought a Churchman should better know what belong to defaming our Neigebour, tha● to expose the credit of a great many innocent men to scandal upon such no-grounds as he mentions.  F 
Nay Sir, I declared before, it was only out of curiosity I spoke of this matter, For I ever thought it very odd, you should be looked upon as friends to the King during all the times of confusion, and for that reason be out of favour with all the several changes of Government, and of a sudden be charged with Annuity to the King when he came in. But I thank you for the information you have given us, and avow freely to you, I shall carry away apprehensions of you very different from what I brought in. For indeed I thought the blind implicit obedience had involved you all into stupid and unsufferable errors, and rendered you unfit, not only for protection, but even harbour amongst honest men: But I perceive 'tis with you, as with the rest of the world, where there are good and bad of all sorts, And though I have no kindness for your Religion yet I will confess I begin to wish as well as you, that the book which has occasioned all our discourse had not been written; for methinks 'tis hard to charge the follies of some, without distinction upon a●●.  P. 
I cannot tell what the design of the Author was. 'Tis in the number of unknowable secrets, and we ought still to judge favourably of things we know not. But his Book seems apt to stir animosities, which if he judge seasonable, I should think not so charitable. Neither can I understand why the moderate share we had in the late Indulgence, should occasion so much Zeal against us, and none against others who were more largely indulged, and are otherwise much and many ways more considerable: Especially, when I consider the Topies he uses, your Religion, says he, is an excellent Religion, and ours full of stupidity: Be it so; may we not therefore be Permitted to say our prayers in private? Which is all the Indulgence allowed us. Sure 'tis no part of the goodness of your Church to hinder others from being as good as they can; and the worse our Religion is, the more need we have of praying to make us better. Again let the Pope claim what power he pleases, and that power be as inconvenient as that Gentleman pleases; private prayer will not therefore be inconvenient, or you receive any harm from what passes in private. Against seditious Doctrines, such as those are declared by Catholics to be, I hope the Laws takes Order, and they are excepthd by the very declaration. 'Tis the name of Abbey Lands and Vbby-Lubbers▪ and the rest of the inconveniences he mentions; private prayer certainly will never pray them in, and were there any danger of them, we should help you to our powers to keep them out. His Topic of Auricular confession, in my opinion might have been spared in respect to the Church of England, which is far from disaproving such Confession. And however every body must needs see that there are Nations, who use it, as careful of the honours, of their Families every jot as the English, and something more jealous. An abuse may sometimes happen, from which there is nothing so sacred that can always be free but good things are not to be taken away because 'tis possible they may be abused. At worst I do not see that you are concerned. If we have a mind to prostitute our Wives and Daughters, how are youth● less safe, or which way endangered if we be all Whore's and Cuckold's.  
We fell a laughing at that expression, and that laughter broke of our discourse, and soon after our company. I parted as soon as I had paid our Coffee, and I wish you may think your few pence as well bestow d on the Relation as I did mine to hear it.  
FINIS.