A Brief ACCOUNT Of the MOST Material Passages Between those called QUAKERS And BAPTISTS At the Barbican-Meeting, London, the 9th of the 8th Month, 1674. Published for Information, by W. Mead, J. Osgood, W. Shown, E. Man, S. Newton, J. Claypool, W. Welch. Citizens there present, from the best Collection they could make by Writing and Memory. Also a Copy of the Charges against Thomas Hicks: With a Letter from a sober Baptist-Preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the Account of that Meeting. The Names of the Persons chiefly concerned being On the one side, George Whitehead, George Keith, William Penn, Stephen Crisp. On the other William Kiffin, Thomas Hicks, Thomas Plant, Jeremiah Ives. Robert Forguson a Presb. A Brief Account Of the most Material Things which passed at the last Barhican-Meeting, being the 9th of this Instant, between the People called Quakers, and Anabaptists. ALthough we could rather have chosen to suspend any Publication of that days Procedure, until we should have received a more complete Account of the whole Matter depending; yet since we find three false & imperfect Relations abroad, our Care to prevent the People's Misinformation hath prevailed with us to publish this Narrative. OUr Friends being conducted by one T. Plant, a Baptist-Preacher, to the Place by them designed for us (which we must needs say, did greatly frustrate our Expectation (founded upon an accepted Article of Equal Place) there being scarce Breathing-room allotted in all that great Assembly for much above Twenty of us: And there after some Difficulty settled, W. K. stood up in the Pulpit on the contrary side▪ & by way of Introduction to the Matter, told the Auditory, That the Occasion of the Meeting was to Answer the Call of the Quakers upon them for Justice against T. H. his Proceedings in his late Dialogues; and desired, that their Charge exhibited against T. H. might be publicly read for the Information of the People. Whereunto G. W. replied, That there had been a great Report of his and W. P's knowing the Appointment of the former Barbican-Meeting, and designedly declining it, as being Fearful or Unable to make good their Charges against T. H. which was an absolute Wrong done them, they being ignorant of any such Meeting, wherein they were concerned; and that they were now come to make good what they had exhibited against T. H. W. K. If you were so reflected on, it came from non● of Us that we know of. W. P. Where is that (Us) limited? W. K. To those concerned in that Meeting. W. P. If T. H. had been but as careful in not extending the Fault of any one called a Quaker against the whole People, as W. K. is in restraining the Word Us, he had behaved himself more honestly, than he has done. But W. K. if those called Anabaptists belong to any part of that (Us) we can prove several of them guilty in that Particular. W. K. If ye will produce them, we shall endeavour to do you Justice. W. P. That is fairly said. W. K. We think it convenient, that the Charge you sent us be read. W. P. It will not be so proper that the Paper we sent to you be read, being but a mere Index of the Matter charged, and therefore not readily to be apprehended by the Auditory; but we have prepared another Paper, containing the same Matter at large, as in the Pages, referred to in the former, which Liberty we expressly provided for in the first Article by you accepted, as will appear by our Letter, which we desire may be read. W. K. & T. P. Then let our Letter be also read. W. P. That's but Reasonable. [And here both Letters were read, which are omitted for Brevity sake; that done our Charge at length was produced and read up to the Auditory.] W. K. I desire that T. H. may have Liberty to make his general Defence, without Interruption, to the Charge. W. P. We are contented. T. H. As to the first Particular, it contains two Parts; The first, the Manner of Writing; the second, the Matter. First, As to the Manner; that is, by way of Dialogue; which hath not only been used by Ancient and Modern Christian. Writers, but also by some of the Quakers themselves; witness W. Smith's Book, called, A primer betwixt a Father and a Child. 2. The Matter, which relates to my Opposing the Christian to the Quaker. I have Five Reasons to offer why I did so. First, They deny the Christ of God. [The rest are omitted for brevity ●ake, and because they came not under any Consideration.] By Quakers I mean such as G. F. E. B. G. W. W. P. G. K. S. C. etc. 1. They deny the Christ of God; and this I prove out the Quakers own Writings. E. B. denies that Christ was ever visible to Men of thy Generation, meaning the Wicked: But the Christ of God was seen by wicked Men, etc. 2. From G. W 's Appendix to Reas. against Rail. Where he saith, That Jesus Christ, a distinct Person without us, is no Scripture-Language. W. P. Friendly Auditors, T. H. endeavours to justify the Manner and Matter of his Writing against us: To the first, and what he saith in Defence of it, I must tell him, that he mistakes the Case; for Will. Smith's Book was written Catechistically, in a familiar Way, to the Capacity of a Child; but T. H 's Controversially, wherein he undertakes both to represent our Principles, and Way of defending them; affirming, that he had given nothing under the Name of a Quaker, but what was the Language and Practice of a real Quaker. And I shall prove that Discourse fictitious by several Instances, having never been, as we have Cause to believe, the Sayings or Practices of a real Quaker, which are as follow: Anab. May I not conclude, that the Reason why you so freely rail against, and reproach your Opposers, is only to secure your Credit with your Proselytes? Quak. I cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it, Dial. 1. p. 72. A. Doth the Darkness obey this Light, or doth the Light obey itself? Q. It obeyeth itself, Dial. 1. p. 66. A. But did Christ-without redeem Christ within? Q. We say, it is the Seed to which the Promise of Redemption is, and which ONLY wants Redemption, Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is not this Seed within God? Q. Yea, Ibid. A. But was not Christ without a mere Creature? Q. Yea, Ibid. A. You said before, Christ is but one, and now ye speak as if there were two, the one God, and the other a Creature: How shall I understand thee? Q. Indeed thou canst no●●nderstand, Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is it not incredible th●● a Creature should redeem God? Q. Indeed thou canst not believe, thy Mind being in the Darkness & Enmity. p. 70, A. But canst thou give a rational Account hereof? Q. Why demandest thou a rational Account? I deny thy Reason; we witness THIS Redemption, p. 70. A. Dost thou not give Ground to suspect ●ecei●? Q. Nay, there is that in thee that would witness to me, it thou wouldst heed it, Ibid. A. I confess there is that in me that doth believe thou art full of Pride, Heresy and Hypocrisy: Is it this thou meanest bears witness to thee? Q. I see thou art a Wicked Creature, and hast NOTHING of God in thee, p. 70. Again, A. Since you own not the Scriptures as A Rule; of what Use are they? Q. They are a Declaration of the Saints Conditions, p. 79, 80. A. Are they of no further Use? Q. Not to us, p. 68 Again, A. The Apostle saith, Let Woman be silent in the Church; why suffer ye Women to declare? Q. The Women to be silenced is the Flesh, p. 71. A. Hath the Flesh a Husband? Q. Yea, Ibid. A. Who is it? Q. The Devil, p. 71. A. The Text saith, Let a Woman ask h● Husband at home; must the Flesh be instructed by the Devil in the Things of Religion. Q. Alas for thee, I comprehend thee, an● see thy Subtlety, p. 71. Again, A. Are you then as perfectly happ● as ever you expect to be? Q. We witness Perfection, p. 72. A. What Proof is this to another Man? Q. We say we witness it; is not th● Proof sufficient? A. But what if I believe otherwise? Q. We shall not spare to stigmatize th● Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings, p. 72. A. Will this convince me or any other● your Perfection? Q. Though it do not, yet thereby w● shall render you so odious to our Fiends, th● they will believe nothing that is spoken b● you against us, p. 72. A. Doth not this signify a very dishonour and malicious Mind? Q. We care not what you think, provided our Friends think not so, p. 73.— We will give it out, that we have both an●swered and confuted our Adversaries, an● ●r Friends will believe us, which is enough us, Ibid. in fin. Again, A. But since it is not the Good of 〈◊〉 Promises that shall be fulfilled to Persons ●ter Death, it must be some other Thing; ●ay what is it? Q. We say, there is a Seed shall be sa●d Dial. 1. p. 74. Dial. 3. p. 37. A. But if this Seed only be God and Christ; ●hat is that to you? Q. Is not this sufficient? p. 74, 75. Again, A. What is the Soul? Q. It is a Part of God, and of God's ●●eing, p. 65. A. Is not this as much as to say, the Soul● God? Q. Yea, Ibid. A. If the Light be God, and the Soul be ●d; how say you, God sets up a Light in the ●ul? Doth he set up a Light in himself? Q. We are dead to Distinctions, p. 65, 66. Again, A. But dost thou indeed believe, ●at those Quotations set down in the former ●ialogues are Forgeries? Q. I do so, Dial. 3. p. 2. [These are some of his Fictions.] T. H. I can prove it all; I cannot bate them a Word; some I will prove by their own Words, and others by Consequence. W. P. He hath shut out himself from all Consequences by affirming that they are no other than what the Quakers give both in Words and Practice; and if the Quakers Expressions, than not T. H 's Consequences; but if Consequences of T. H 's Drawing, than not the Quakers Expressions: And though we might allow W. Kiffin, or any sobe● Man to draw Natural and Genuine Consequences upon us, from our Principles; yet we cannot give that Liberty to T. H. he having already excluded himself. [Note Reader, that upon the great Crack that was in the Meeting (which caused a Consternation at that Time upon many of the People) they descended the Pulpit to a more secure Place; at what Time J. I. thus spoke to W. P.] J. I. Mr. Penn, Inasmuch as you see the House hath shown itself so infirm, and that the People are so tumultuous, and that it may be dangerous not to break up the Meeting, we desire that you would consent to the Dissolving of it. W. P. Ah Jeremy! had T. Hicks Heen but half so careful of not giving Occasion for all this Bustle, there had been no Need of thy Desire or our Grant: But the People begin to be settled (crying out, there is no Danger) and there are Places secure enough for you (pointing to another Gallery) and we are so deeply concerned in Defence of our Religion, that we are not willing to give away this Opportunity: Therefore Friends and People, I do beseech you to be still; doubtless you are come to hear, and you are the present Obstructors of your own Hearing: We are denied to be Christians, and are rendered unfit to live amongst Men; to some of you we may be Relations; too others Neighbours or Acquaintance; howbeit, we are your Country Men: Give us a Hearing for our Religion; Our Souls, Bodies, and all what is near and dear to us, is concerned in this Matter: Therefore once more I entreat your Silence, that we may proceed. R. F. a Scottish Priest undertook to speak on the behalf of T. H. excusing him for writing Dialogue-wise. G. K. It is one Thing to write Dialogue-wise, and another Thing to write a Dialogue; for many in England did take it for a real Dialogue. [Of which several present bore Witness.] R. F. George, You know that Minutius Felix and several Ancients, Learned Men, have writ Dialogue-wise, as Lucian and Cicero. W. P. Dost thou mention Lucian and Cicero, Heathens? R. F. Cicero was a wiser Man, Mr. Penn, than you or I; he proved one God admirably well. W. P. It seems then our Light is good for somewhat, seeing a Heathen by that Light, could so admirably prove a God. Besides, their Manner of Dialogueing was not like T. H's, who so unfairly and unjustly misrepresented our Expressions, Principles and Religion. R. F. The Matter we charge upon you, is, that the Quaker is no Christian. W. P. We, what We? who art thou? R. F. I am a Christian. W. P. So say we; that is but a begging of the Question. [Hear some answered, He is a Presbyterian Minister.] W. P. A Presbyterian? what! a confederacy? [Then Jeremy Ives, called an Arminian-Baptist, stood up.] J. I. You say right, Mr. Penn; I must acknowledge, the writing Controversy in Dialogue is a very unfair Way, unless the greatest Care be taken in expressing the Principles of the Adversary in his own words, and according to the best sense they will carry: But let us come to the Matter of his Dialogues, wherein he opposeth the Christian to the Quaker. — Well, J. I. it seems thou dost grant the first. W. P. I am willing to come to the Matter, if you would but hear, and not thus frequently interrupt me one after another. The second thing we object, as he tells us, is the Opposing the Christian to the Quaker: His first Reason for so doing, is Our Denying the Christ of God. His Proof, as he calls it, was out of my Book, called Reas. ag. Rail. pag. 54. The words are these: Let it suffice to the sober Reader, that we do believe That Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever, did come of Abraham's Seed according to the Flesh; that the Body prepared of that Line was his Body; that what Sufferings befell it, were the Sufferings of Christ; just as the Body is called the Body of Christ. This makes very well for us; for we are so far from denying him, that we acknowledge him to be God over all, blessed forever. R. F. But you deny him to be a distinct Being without you. W. P. No such matter; for we acknowledge him to be a distinct Being without us, yet not divided from his People. [Here T. H. whispered, R. F. saying, A distinct Person without them, or to that purpose.] R. F. But you deny him to be a distinct Person without you. W. P. Thou didst just now charge us with denying Christ to be a distinct Being without us: This altars the Case; acknowledge thy Mistake, and I shall answer. [About this time they returned to the Pulpit again.] T. H. I will prove the Quakers deny the Christ of God, from G. W. his Appendix to Reas. ag. Rail. pag. 27. And must conclude that it is a Design of Satan, to keep some Men in Carnal Imaginations, and Dark Thoughts of an Human, Personal Christ G. W. Here T. H. hath dealt unfairly, as they have done in their Barbican Relation, by leaving out the last part of the Sentence, which is explanatory of the first part, where I further explain it in these words, viz. consisting either of Flesh, Blood and Bones like theirs; or of Flesh and Bones without Blood, and so of God's right hand, as limited to that Remoteness, that they neglect to wait for Christ's Inward and Spiritual Appearance, and the Knowledge of God's Right Hand near them, to save and preserve them from Sin and Death. Are not those carnal Imaginations, causing this Neglect, Sinful? J. I. T. Hicks will prove his Charges. T. H. I w●ll prove them All, at least Most of them. [Hear the People hooted them, as if he cried Guilty to some of them.] W. P. T. H. had Liberty to make his general Answer without Interruption; and will ye not give me leave to make my general Reply? Let me proceed to end this second Head, and I shall hear willingly T. H. of the whole Matter: But it cannot be fairly done to overlook my Answer to the first Part, and thus unhandsomely interrupt in the second; This is not to act the Christian: If you will be but patient to hear my Reply, I do engage to hear T. H's; and if this day will not serve, he shall have to morrow; and if that will not do, he shall have the day called Monday, and so on, till the Matter be throughly debated. [Hear Reader, a great Number of indifferent People cried, Go on, go on: But I, Ives, etc. refused to hear any thing further, unless our Friends would give way to them to insist upon the Proof of our denying the Lord's Christ; which was only therefore withstood by us, because it was out of that Order and Method T. H. himself had laid down to proceed upon.] W. P. If you will not hear my general Reply, and thus unhandsomely overrun the first Part of the Charge, promise us that after we have discussed this particular Head, that you will go upon the Charges by us exhibited, and we shall condescend to answer you. J. I. T. H. and several promised, Yes, yes, yes. W. P. Then go on; and let T. H. make good his Charge if he can. [Here J. I. put forward to speak for T. H. upon which W. P. called out.] W. P. Tho. Hicks speak out for thyself: thou art the Man I have to do withal. T. P. Mr. Penn, you promised to hear another speak for T. H. because of the Impediment of his Voice. W. P. What aileth him! His Voice is loud enough to Charge, but it seems it is not loud enough to Prove; But if T. H. pleads that Infirmity, I am content another should go on. [The People cried, Hicks, Hicks, Hicks; whereupon T. Hicks advanced. T. H. They that deny the Lord's Christ are no Christians; But the Quakers deny the Lord's Christ, etc. W. P. I deny the Minor, viz. That the Quakers deny the Lord's Christ. T. H. They that deny Christ to be a distinct Person without them, deny the Lord's Christ; But the Quakers deny Christ to be a distinct Person without them, etc. J. I. W. P. answer directly. W. P. I desire that T. H. may explain what he meaneth by the term Person. T. H. I mean, the Man Christ Jesus W. P. Then I deny the Minor, viz. That we deny the Man Christ Jesus. T. H. I prove ye deny the Man Christ Jesus H. W. saith; That Christ was never seen with Carnal Eyes, nor heard with Carnal Ears, etc. J. I. He that denies that Christ was ever ●en with Carnal Eyes, etc. denies the Man Christ; But the Quakers deny that Christ ●as ever seen with Carnal Eyes, etc.— G. K. I answer by Distinguishing: Christ ● God, was never seen with Carnal Eyes; ●ut as Man he was seen with Carnal Eyes. J. I. But he was Christ as he was Man How then was not Christ seen with Carn● Eyes? G. K. We are to consider, that the Term or Names Jesus Christ are sometimes applied to him as God, and sometimes to him ● Man; yea, sometimes to the very Body ● Jesus: But the Question is, Whether ● those Names more properly, immediate and originally belong to him as God, or ● he was before he took that Manhood upon him, or to the Manhood? We affirm, Tho●● Names are given to him most properly a●● eminently as God, and less properly, y●● truly, as Man; and least properly to his B●●dy, yet to his Dead Body. J. I. Where do ye read, that the Care● was called the Christ? [Whereupon several grieved at such reverend Expressions, cried out, Where d●● thou ever read that Christ's Dead Body ● called a Carcase?] W. P. I beseech you for the Lord's sa● that we may treat of these things as become Christians, with an holy Fear & Reveren● G. K. I prove that the Dead Body of ●●sus was called Christ from the Words of M●●ry, Where have ye laid him? [With this J. I. broke forth into a Laugh●er, with the Confederates.] C. H. Are you not ashamed to laugh at ●lain Scripture-Words. G. K. But I prove that he was Jesus Christ before he took Flesh, Ephes. 3. 9 who cre●ted all things by Jesus Christ. J. I. George Keith, Is this to be a Respondent? Are you a Scholar, and do not know better the Rules of a Respondent? G. K. Yes, I will justify is, that it is lawful for me to give the Reason of my Distinction. T. H. I will prove the Quakers to be no Christians. C. H. There are two Ways of proving a Man no Christian; the one by Principle, the other by PRACTICE Jeremy. J. I. They that say, That Christ cannot be seen with Carnal Eyes, and was never visible to wicked Men, do deny the Lord's Christ; for he was seen with Carnal Eyes, and by wicked Men. W. P. I distinguish upon the word Seen: Wicked Men might see him in that Bodily Appearance, and yet not see him to be the Christ of God; they saw his Manhood, but did not see his Christsh●p. [Hear Reader, J. I. T. Hicks, etc. fell a laughing, and set many of their own Party into an indecent Noise; at which W. P. thus reflected:] W. P. Are you not ashamed? Will you pretend to prove us no Christians, and yet behave yourselves so like unchristian Men, to laugh about matters of the greatest Moment. I will prove to you, that not all who saw his Manhood did see him as Christ. First, From Christ's Words to Peter, when Peter confessed, that he was Christ, the Son of the Living God, viz. Flesh and Blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father which is in Heaven; Therefore Peter with a Carnal Eye could not have seen the Lord's Christ, much less Wicked Men. My second Proof is from the Apostles Words, 1 Cor. 2. Whom none of the Princes of this World knew; for had they known him, they would not have crucified him. Now Seeing and Knowing in Scripture are sometimes equivalent; consequently, Christ as to his outward Appearance might be seen by Wicked Men, yet not seen or known to be the Christ. And that was the seeing plainly intended by E. B's Words. G. K. Christ said, He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father; but no Wicked Man hath seen the Father; therefore no Wicked Man hath seen Christ, as such. [Upon this J. I. according to his usual Practice flung up his Hand to the Company, bespeaking them for a Noise, expressing himself to this Purpose.] J. I. This is a Distinction indeed; just as if I should say when I see W. P ' s. Body, I do not see W. P. because I do not see his ●oul, or that which is more excellent in him. [A mere Shuffle! The Comparison being altogether unequal, as many replied; for it no way lessens the Distinction, nor the Weight of those Scriptures abovementioned; As also, they that saw him as the Carpenter's Son, did not see him as the Christ of God.] J. I. Is the Manhood a part of the Lord's Christ? W. P. Is this to prove the Charge of our denying the Lord's Christ? It seems we must be here to be catechised, and ye will not answer us one Question. [Whereupon J. I. lifted up his Hands and Voice, as if he had sound out the Secret, crying to the People.] J. I. Now ye see after what Manner they own the Lords Christ. [Hear some of their own Party gave him an Acclamation.] W. P. Friends, I desire you to hear me: I shall answer J. I. his Question, if he will promise to answer mine. J. I. I will answer it. W. P. Then I here declare, that we do faithfully believe that Holy Manhood to be a Member of the Christ of God. [Upon which the People cried, Very well; and W. P. directed his Question to J. Ives.] W. P. Was he the Christ of God before he was manifested in the Flesh? J. I. He was the Son of God. W. P. But was he the Lord's Christ? I will prove him to have been the Lord's Christ, as well before as after. 1. From the Apostle Paul's Words to the Corinthians: That Rock was Christ. Next, From Judas, where some Greek Copies have it thus, That Jesus brought the People of Israel out of Egypt. [To which we received no Answer, though we often called upon him for it] G. K. If they own him not to be the Christ, before he took Flesh, they take Part with the * And there is some Cause for Suspicion; for a professed Socinian confederated with them, and sat very near the Pulpit. Socinians. [Here J. I. being manifestly at a loss, fell into a heavy Repetition of some former Passages, impertinent to the present Matter, with his so and so; and what if I should say, etc. to the nauseating of the Minds of the People, which he perceiving, ●etook himself to this Question, as his last Stratagem.] J. I. But do ye believe that Christ in his Human Nature is in Heaven. [After the Discourse between W. P. G. K. on the one part, and J. I. and T. H. ●n the other, about seeing the Lord's Christ; ●. W. in this wise opened and referred the Matter to the People's serious Considerations.] G. W. You have heard the Charge against ●s, and the Distinction that hath been made between Seeing and Seeing of Christ; as namely, between the Spiritual, Saving Sight● the Lord's Christ; and the Seeing of his utward Man, Person or Body: In this last ●ense, it could never be intended that it was ●t visible to the outward Eye; But as he was ●e Spiritual Rock which all Israel drunk of, ●d as he was before Abraham was, and as ●●rified with the Father before the World be●n, and as Christ himself saith to Philip, He ●●t seethe me, seeth my Father also: And it ●ere only Saints or Children of Light, who could truly say, We have seen his Glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth; In all which Considerations or Sense of Seeing, the Lord's Christ was only seen spiritually, and not with Carnal Eyes; therefore we may leave this Matter with the People, seriously to consider of. [To which J. Ives granted that it might be so left; yet presently after, instead of proving us No Christians, he urged that unscriptural Question aforesaid upon us.] J. I. Do ye believe or own that Christ is in Heaven with his Human Nature? W. P. We do believe the Man. Christ Jesus to be glorified in Heaven. [Which Answer J. I. refused to accept, because they were not the Terms of his Question.] W. P. What difference dost thou make between the Manhood and Human Nature of Christ? J. I. None, if you mean candidly. W. P. Then I do mean and speak candidly; we do believe that Holy Manhood to be in Heavenly Glory. J. I. Why did not you say so before? [The People said, It is enough.] [J. Ives immediately withdrew, and went his Way.] [It being dark, we called for Candles to be ●●ght'd, in order to prosecute our Charges; but some of them cried out, Away, away, away; no Candles to be lighted: At length we got some; But Th. Plant appeared in the Pulpit, desiring to be heard a few Words, which were to this Purpose, directed to G. W & W. P.] T. P. The Doors are broken, and several Things necessary to be repared, which, if the Meeting should not be broke up, the Carpenter cannot have Time to do it before our First-Day Meeting: And inasmuch as such great Meetings are attended with Inconveniences; we desire that five of your Friends may meet five of our Friends, in order to consider about an other Meeting. W. P. It is your House; we are not willing to be Trespassers, and must thus far acquiesce in your Requests, to withdraw at present; only, inasmuch as we have been publicly wronged, it is but Reasonable we should be publicly righted. T. P. That is but reasonable. W. P. Then we accept the Offer of five of Side, to consider of a further Meeting. T. P. We take it kindly from you. W. P. Friendly Auditors; Before ye de●art, I desire that you would be pleased to ●●ke notice, that whereas it hath been ob●●cted against us, we deny the Lord's Christ, in order to make good T. H's Dialogue, in opposing the Christian to the Quaker, as if the Quaker were no Christian: We do here solemnly declare, that with Reverence we believe and confess to Christ, both as he is the Man Jesus, and God over all, blessed forever. And this further I would leave with you, that though we are jealous of expressing our Faith in unscriptural Terms, as, God-Man, a distinct Person without us (which limits and confines him to a Remoteness) Human Nature of Christ in Heaven, etc. yet you see we have declared that to be our Belief, which they acknowledge to be the true Sense and Meaning, signified by that Explanation they put upon their own Terms. Now do but weigh, how unreasonable it is, that for rejecting certain Terms, and those unscriptural too, we should so publicly, and with such Severity be Vnchristianed to the World by T. H. etc. G. W. I also desire to be heard a little. Here hath been a great deal of words about Christianity; But while the Name of Christ hath been often mentioned, there is not that Reverence to him shown among you, that aught to be in Discoursing about Christ and Christianity: It doth ill become Professors thereof to show themselves in this Rudeness, Clamours and Confusion, as many here have done; But since Christianity is so much talked of, it is necessary to know, What Christianity is. It is not a Profession or mere Notion of Christ (how true soever) but it is a being like Christ; He was Patient, Meek, Humble, Low in Heart, etc. in all which true-Christians are Conformable unto him, and Bear his Image.— We have been by these Interruptions diverted from pursuing our Charge againt T. H. who hath most grossly abused Us, our Religion and Sufferings; insinuating that they were for Carnal Interest, and Satisfaction of our Wills and Lusts, as if on this account our Friends offered up their Lives, and all that was Near and Dear to them in this World; (many Dying in Prison in Newgate in the time of the Infection, and at other times, for bearing an open Testimony in their public Meetings in this City of London) Let All who are Serious & Impartial, judge concerning this manner, and how this man hath abused Us and our Sufferings, etc. And, seeing that a Dismission of the Meeting is desired by them, the Place being theirs, that they may have no occasion against us, I entreat that all our Friends may peaceably withdraw: And T. Plant, desire the same of them that belong to them. T. P. I desire that all may quietly depart. G. W. I desire also that those in the Galleries take time to go down gently that none be harmed. Further, That since we have mutually agreed to dismiss the Meeting, T. Plant, I desire that none of you, the Baptists, would stay after us, to render us Odious; but depart with us. T. P. We will. [And accordingly the Multitude peaceably withdrew, and dispersed themselves.] A Catalogue of some of those Things charged against T. H. either Wholly Omitted or ●●airly Examined in your ●●te Relation of the Barbican Meeting; pointing you to the Particulars in the Books. General Charges. 1. A Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker [yet made by T. H.] viz. wherein, saith he, is faithfully represented some of the chief and most Concerning Opinions of the Quakers; Together with their Method and Manner of Reasoning in the Defence thereof; published for Common Benefit, Dial. 1. Title Page. 2. His Abuse of our Sufferings. His Discourse runs thus, viz. Q. Why will you not be free, and plainly tell me, what it is that doth influence and prevail with you to do and suffer as you do? A. What dost thou think it should be? Dial. 1. p. 75. Q. May not the Satisfaction of your WILLS and LUSTS, the promoting your Carnal Interest, be your chief Motive and Inducement? A. We deny the Flesh, and the Lusts: This is thy own dark Imagination. Q. May not you live in, and fulfil the Lusts of the Flesh, whilst you deny it in words? I am serious with you, since your Opinion denies any Eternal Advantage to be reaped by Persons after Death, in denying the Resurrection of this Body; Must you not then have respect Only to something to be enjoyed here, as your Encouragement? A. We are above the World and all its Encouragement. Q. This is no other to me then a Vai● Boast, because I am assured no sort of People whatever, do more eagerly grasp af●ter the World than you do, insomuch tha● (I believe) your Carnal Advantages is o● great thing in your ●ye in your sedulous Endeavours to augment your Numbers; ● I mistake you, inform me what it is that do● animate you? A. Thou seest we suffer in our worldly concerns for our Principles; How then can this be our Encouragement? Q. Though you may sustain some outward Losses; yet, whether ye have not a way to augment your outward Gains by Losing? 3. Are you then as perfectly happy as ever you expect to be? A. We witness Perfection, 1 Dial. p. 72, 73. Q. What Proof is this to another Man? A. We say we witness it: Is not this Proof sufficient? Q. But what if I believe otherwise? A. We shall not spare to stigmatize and condemn that Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings. Q Will this convince me or any other of your Perfection? A. Though it doth not, yet thereby we shall render you so odious to our Friends, that they will believe nothing that is spoken by you against us. Q. Then may I not conclude, that the Reason why you so freely rail against, & reproach your Opposers is only to secure your Credit with your own Proselytes? A. I cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it. Q. Will you be so liberal of your Revile, whether your Adversaries give Occasion or no? A. It concerns us to render them as ridiculous as we can, and to make our Friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves; And if this fail, we will insinuate by way of Question something that may be reproachful to them, etc. Q. But doth not this signify a very dishonest and malicious Mind in you? A. We care not what you think, provided our Friends think not so. Q. One of your Friends meeting with a Person that had writ against you, tells him, That if he did write any more against them, that they would print any thing against him that any Person would report, be it what it would. Is such a Practice a Proof of your Perfection? A. Now thou slanderest us. Q. Do you believe the Scriptures to be the true Sayings of God? A. Yea, so far as they agree to the Light in me, Dial. 1. p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 29. 5. Q. When we make use of the Scriptures, 'tis only to quiet and stop their Clamours that plead for it as their Rule, Dial. ● pag. 24, 25. 6. That they (viz. the Quakers) render the holy-Scriptures to be of no more Authority than the Fables of Aesop; and esteem them inferior to their own Pamphlets, 2 Dial. Epist. p. 5. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 29 7. That the Blood of Christ in their Esteem is worse than the Blood of a common Thief, Dial. 1. p. 9 & 38. Contin. p. 4. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 31. 8. That the Quakers have discovered themselves to be no other but the Spawn of that wicked Brood the Ranters, having licked up their Vomit, Dial. 3. p. 80. 9 That the Quakers owning Jesus Christ is indeed no other than a mere mystical Romance, 1 Dial. p. 10. Contin. p. 9 10. That the Tendency of all the Quakers Reasoning about Instituted Religion is to debauch Mankind, Dial. 3. p. 65 11. That the Quakers appoint their Ministers aforehand to speak in such a Place at such a Time: That their Meetings are only and principally to decoy, trapan and inveigle others, Contin. p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 27. 12. That our Principles improved, are destructive to all humane Society, Contin, p. 59, 62, 69. 13. His kind of treating us with reviling Language, viz. Cheats and Impostors, Liars Malignant Errors, Hypocrisy, Deceit, Equivocations; The Way they arrived to that Degree of Perfection, was by Quaking, Foaming at the Mouth, with dreadful Roar and Howl; and this, he says, the Devil influenced us into. Again, Delusions, impertinent Canting, Nonsense, Blasphemy, the Devil's Slaves, Paganism, Satan's Snares, Pernicious and Perilous Errors; they are inspired and influenced by that grand Impostor the Devil; Blasphemous and Ridiculous Canting; Enthusiastical; they Decoy and Trapan; your Idle, Nonsensical and Blasphemous Prating; Inspired by Satan; You are as Vile Impostors as ever were. Thus much of us and our Way in general, besides his Knaves, Coxcomb, Impudent and Audacious Fellows, that he has called our Friends on Religious Conferences: Madmen, Absolutely Infatuated, Distracted, Monsters in Religion, Dissemblers, Knave, Impudent Fellow, little Respect to Magistrates, Wilful Lying, the most implacable Enemies to the Christian-Religion, as vile Impostors as ever were, etc. to which is added Dial. 1. p. 76. Romish Emissaries: See Reas. against Rail. p. 170, 171. Append. ibid. p. 7, 8. C●u●t. Chr. p. 120. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 24, 25. 14. He proclaims to the World, that our Religion is a mere Cheat, calculated only to the service of the Devil, and their own Lusts, Dial. 1. pag. 62. 15. If a Merchant sell you his Goods, he must stay for his Money till you (saith he) be moved to pay it; till which time you are under no Obligation in point of Duty. You say, 'tis necessary to have things revealed to you, with respect to your Conversation in the World, which are not to be found in the Scriptures, no not by Consequence: How then may your Creditors be assured it will be revealed to you, to pay what you owe them? Scripture and Reason would, and do teach you herein, but these you must be dead unto; who knows than what may, or may not be revealed to you? 'Tis not unknown that a Revelation hath been pretended to excuse the Payment of a just Debt. And why may not that which hath been (even amongst you) be again? But is it reasonable that Men should be baffled out of their just Rights by such unjust and wicked Pretences? Continuat. pag. 69, 70. Charges against Particulars. 1. That Jesus Christ came to seek and save a lost God; and that the Seed of God in Man only, and nothing else is taught, etc. Contin. p. 49 and 66. 2. That Nich. Lucas, a real Quaker, was moved to declare his mind thus, (to one I know very well) Thou mayst burn thy Bible, and when that is done thou mayst serve God as well without it; And if thou hast a mind to have a Scripture, thou mayst write as good a one thyself, Cont. p. 5. & 60, 71. Dial. 3. p. 3. & 86. 3. Chr. I have formerly detected you of several pernicious Opinions concerning the Scriptures, the Light within, the Person of Christ, and the Resurrection of the Dead, etc. which I presume by this time you have considered; What say, you thereunto? Quak. I say, the Plagues and Judgements of God will follow thee, G. W. Contin. p. 1. Dial. 3. p. 85. Q. Ap. Ans. p. 30. 4. His false Reflections upon Stephen Crisp, Dial. 1. p. 44, 45. 5. His several Abuses of W. Pen, cited in his Book, called, Reas. against Rail. Cont. p. 52. Dial. 3. p. 1, 2, 4, 10, 13, 41, 68, 69, 70, 72, 73, 74, 80, & Epist. The Contradictions charged upon T. Hicks, Counterf. Christ. detect. p. 3. 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54. Further we have several Exceptions against your Manner of Appointment, and Management of the Meeting at Barbican. We also Except against your late Book, called, The Quakers Appeal Answered, as not making good the Title thereof; And because many Things are overlooked, for which you say the Appeal was made, and several Things unfairly cited. Which are but some of those many things we have further to object against T. Hicks and his Abettors, when the●e are particularly and fully considered & determined in public. And we having thus far condescended, we expect a public Meeting without delay fairly to examine and discourse Matters; which when done, we are willing to come to the Doctrinal Points (which are chiefly in Controversy) concerned in T. H's three Dialogues; our very Aim and End being for Truth and Righteousness, and that things may be managed in Good Order. George Whitehead, George Keith, William Penn, Stephen Crisp, Brother IVES, I Was sorry to see Thee appear in the Pulpit (I will not say Cockpit) as an Assistant to one that would prove the Quaker No Christian We saw him foiled in his first Attempt, to prove his Way of Writing; For, as Mr. Penn truly said, There is a vast Difference betwixt a Dialogue composed for Information, and one for Disputation; In the first I only write my own Judgement, in the other an Adversary's. But moreover, I wonder thou wouldst put that Ensnaring Question to them (which was best answered with Silence) viz. Whether the Humanity was a part of Christ: For what if they had turned another upon thee to the same Purpose, thus, Whether that which was crucified, and satisfied for Sin, was a Part of Christ, or whole Christ? Would not the same or more Absurdities have fallen upon thee, if thou hadst directly answered? Brother, let us leave dividing of Christ; and put not such Queries, which bring Inconveniencies upon both Parties. Again, Thy Way to prove them will as easily prove us all No Christians; for I suppose thou wast running to this, That he that denies a Part of Christ denies the Whole; but the Quakers deny a part, Ergo. Then why may not another reason thus? He that loves not Christ, denys him; he that keeps not his Commands, loves him not, and so forward to this, That Nonconformity to every Command of Christ is a Denying of Christ, then must the Presbyter. and Independents be No Christians for denying Baptism; and some Baptised Churches must be Antichristian for denying Laying on of Hands on all, and others for not keeping Saturday-Sabbath; But God forbid that we should thus proceed to Heat henize one another for Diversities of Apprehensions concerning the Nature, Offices or Ordinances of Christ. T H. has Dialogued so long, till he has filled the Quakers Meetings in these Parts: And for aught I see, the more We Strive, the more They Thrive. It's strange we cannot observe the Counsel of our own Bible, to let them alone; for if they be not 〈◊〉 God, they shall not stand. Let us contend against all Faith that leads to● an Unholy Life, which doubtless the Apostle intended, when he bids us Contend for Gospel-Faith, and not Doubtful Disputation. One Thing more I noted, which was not fair, viz to set Women at the Door of the Disputation, to sell a Pamphlet to exasperate the People against the Quakers; verily, he that did it, acted too much like a Poacher, which if he can, will wound the Hare before he courses her: I was so troubled at it, that I desired the Woman to remove, or forbear showing till the Dispute was passed; but she was so Zealous in her Business, that I fear, she was hired: Whatever the Design was I know not; but truly the Substance of the Pamphlet was very Weak; for by the very same Argument he may prove all our Pedigree from the Pope, as well as the Quakers; but the Sheet itself smelled of the Spirit of Persecution, which is the very worst Part of Popery: But no more at present, only this, If thou hear of a Disputation again, do thy Endeavour to have it out of the City; three or four Miles Distance had freed you from that Rabble, which I perceive will always disturb and make utterly unprofitable all Meetings of that Nature. From Octob. 12. 74. Thy Loving Friend and Brother W. L. Postscript. FOrasmuch as the Baptists, etc. h●●● publicly (though falsely) accused a●● charged us with Denying the Christ of G 〈…〉 the Worth and Authority of the holy Scriptures, and other things of the like Nature we do (for the stopping of the Mouth 〈◊〉 Slander, and informing the Simple) decl●●● in the Presence of God, That we do high Honour and truly Own the Lord Jes●● Christ, as he is born witness of in the ho●● Scriptures, both as he is God, and as he too● upon him Flesh, and fulfilled the Law in th● very Body prepared for him above Sixte●● Hundred Years ago, in which he resist●● and overcame the Devil, and became a complete Sacrifice for Mankind in general. And further, In Simplicity and Plainness of Heart we own him in all his Offices recorded in the holy Scriptures. And concerning the Scriptures, we Esteem them and Ow● them as the Words of God, spoken by the Spirit of God, moving in Holy Men, Prophets, Christ, his Apostles and Ministers and that they are profitable for Doctrine Reproof, Correction, etc. yea, we truly value them above all the Books extant in the World, and do hold it our Duty to live that Holy Life they call for and exhort to; and they were written for our learning, that we through Patience and Comfort of the Scriptures might have Hope: And we wish with all our Hearts, That whole Christendom, who Honour them with their Lips, might come to live that Holy Life which they exhort to; For it is not the bare Profession of God, Christ and Scriptures, and other Heavenly Things in Words, that avails any thing; but a living a Godly Christ-like Life, is the Sum of Christian Religion. W. S. THE END.