USURY At SIX per Cent. examined, AND Found unjustly charged by Sir Tho. Culpepper, and J. C. with many Crimes and Oppressions, whereof 'tis altogether innocent.  
Wherein is showed, The necessity of retrenching our Luxury, and vain consumption of Foreign Commodities, imported by English Money:  
ALSO The reducing the Wages of Servants, Labourers, and Workmen of all sorts, which raiseth the value of our Manufactures, 15. or 20. per Cent. dearer than our Neighbours do afford them, by reason of their cheap Wages:  
Wherein likewise is hinted, Some of the many mischiefs that will ensue upon retrenching Usury;  
HUMBLY Presented to the HIGH COURT OF PARLIAMENT Now Sitting.  
By Thomas Manley, Gent.  
LONDON, Printed by Thomas Ratcliff, and Thomas Daniel, and are to be sold by Ambrose Isted, at the Golden Anchor over against St. D●●stans Church, in Fleetstreet, MDCLXIX.   

The Preface.  
I Have lately seen a Book, entitled, A Discourse showing the many advantages that may accrue to this Nation, by the abatement of Usury; writ by the Ingenious Sr. Thomas Culpepper: wherein if I were to be prevailed with by the fineness of the Style, I must own, I could not stand out from being a Proselyte to his opinion; but the tenderness I have for my Country's good, equal to his, and I hope to any English man's, together with some Observations I may pretend to have drawn from many deal I have had in the world, not only in my own private affairs, but something of public concerns, will not suffer me to yield to his Arguments on that Subject; and if I commit a crime in opposing him, I shall as freely, and as modelly as himself, put myself upon my Country for a trial.  
The lawfulness of Interest, and increase of money, I shall not at all inquire into, but leave the scrupulous to the several Discourses made public on that Subject. Only I shall say, that the hiring of money, for the quickening of Trade and Commerce in the world, (seeing it cannot be borrowed for God's sake) is as necessary for the well being of mankind, as hiring of Land, or Houses; the fair lender being no other than as a sure and ready cashier to the Farmer and Trade, to supply their wants upon all emergencies.  
And yet this terrible thing, Usury, especially at 6. per Cent. and upwards, is charged with so many crimes and oppressions, that I have sometimes questioned whether it may not be scandalous to become its Advocate, since the omitting of every good, and committing of every evil, is attributed to it only: but justice forbids sentence should be passed, till the party accused be heard.  
The charge of the late Dutch War cannot be grievous to us, through some unhappiness, but 6. per Cent. must bear the reproach, and be sacrificed, that the nocent may escape: this manner of reckoning resembles the old way of Spendthrifts, mis-use the principal, and then swear interest has undone them; or like an unjust Judge, hang the small thiefs, and let the great ones go free. I wonder who ever thought that necessary interest rendered that War so costly to us, till my Discourser by his own wonderful perspicuity found it out; so quicksighted is ill will to discern the more in his neighbour's eye: that that War was in itself chargeable, we all feel, as well as know; that whether we, or the Dutch, were first weary in respect of the necessary charge thereof, I inquire not after; but that 6. per Cent. did, or, at least, aught to have made that War so costly to us, I utterly deny; and were it the Subject of this Discourse, or an Argument becoming so obscure a person, I could, without conjuring, lay the saddle on the right horse, and clearly evidence the contrary, from the timely supply of money provided by the Parliament, for the vigorous prosecution of that War; from his Majesty's Royal Revenue; from the many and rich booties taken from the enemy; from our slow payments for materials and wages, whereby money in all likelihood might have come into the Treasury faster than it went out; from his Majesty's remarkable Naval stores at the beginning of that War, the best that ever Prince had, whereby his Majesty was enabled to set forth his first Summer's Fleet, without any considerable present money; from our gay and costly equipling our Ships, beyond what the thrifty Dutch bestow on theirs; from our unfaithfulness, slow dispatch, dear materials, great wages ashore, and victuals aboard, in which last only, we spent in one Summer's expedition of 30000. men, at least 40000. l. more than the Dutch; and especially from our enormous practice of necessitating Merchants, Tradesmen, etc. (who supply his Majesty's Naval stores in time of War, to the value at least of four hundred thousand pounds per annum) to sell their Bills at 20. nay 30. per Cent. loss to such Harpies, who can, I suppose, get them paid by a mysterious trick, (else they were mad men to make a settled trade on't) whereby it must infallibly follow, his Majesty must give 20. nay 30. per Cent. more than the market price, else no man would deal with his Majesty's Officers therein, knowing the rates they must give to procure their moneys. I say from these, and many more reasons, I could easily evidence both how the Nation has been wearied with expenses, and how little Usury has, or aught to have, contributed thereunto; for supposing his Majesty (notwithstanding his most Royal revenue and great supplies) did at any time by reason of the Pestilence, and slack payments of taxes, own the Usurer six hundred thousand pound at 6. per Cent. which in one year amounts unto 36000. l. and is 12000. l. more than the Dutch paid at 4. per Cent. how inconsiderable a sum it to render that War so grievous, as from thence to infer (as my Discourser does loudly enough) that scarce any goodness of Ships, valour of Seamen, or advantage of situation and ports, could countervail such odds.  
But I suppose the plot was otherwise designed, and the unwary Reader was, in courtesy, to have understood my Discourser in a far different sense, that the vast disproportion (as he calls it) of our respective charges might appear, else the large impeachment would have amounted to very little, as hath been already showed; for (says he) 3. to 6. and 4. to 8. bears the same analogy as 30. to 60. and 40. to 80. pray who knows not that? and what is this to the sum total in the respective accounts? will the odds of 2. per Cent. in Usury bear the same analogy as 30. to 60. in the Capital? Now the States (says he) commanding money at 4. per Cent. could in building, rigging, etc. do that for 40. l. which cost his Majesty 80. l. designing thereby to surprise his Reader into an imagination, as if the States by reason merely of low interest, did perform as much in building, rigging, etc. for 40. l. as we did for 80. l. and so by consequence spent in the whole management of that War, but just half as much as we did, which had been an advantage with a witness; else what he means by his analogy, or the Dutch doing that for 40. l. which cost us 80. l. I cannot conceive; whereas indeed the odds was only in their borrowing 100 l. at 4. per Cent. for which we gave 6. and by the same proportion six hundred thousand pounds for 24000. l. for which we paid 36000. l. whereby they saved 12000. l. as hath been already confessed. And this is in truth all the vast disproportion (as he phraseth it) in our respective charges, whereof (says he) 'tis not marvel we were so weary, if we duly consider the (premised) reason: and now; say ●, let any indifferent man judge, whether 6. per Cent. or some body else, aught to be blamed in this particular.  
If we dis-use the wearing our own manufactures, and run a whoring after foreign inventions, destroy our timber to maintain our intemperance, and through penury, or supineness, neglect to plant more; decline propagating fruit trees, (where indeed we shall find no markets,) do not flood our grounds, (where water, it may be, is not to be had;) or if we run into debt, though we vainly or viciously squander vast sums in a night, and through a thousand follies come to beggary, 6. per Cent. must be (forsooth) the author thereof.  
If the French inhibit our manufactures, thereby at once to oblige their people to live upon their own industry, and to suck from us our coin in exchange of their wines, and trifles, which they know well enough we are too luxurious to live without; if Spain and Portugal vent less of our manufactures; or if the industrious Hollander hinder our markets of late, by bringing his manufactures thither also; or if he be frugal, and content himself, and grow rich with the gains of 7. or 8. per Cent. whilst 15. will not support our expensive Traders; or if he be industrious in advancing manufactures, compelling both young and old to work, whilst half our poor will be maintained by their neighbours, to the infinite discouragement of industry, decline working above 3. or 4. days in the week, when provisions are cheap, and many turn sturdy Vagabonds; or if all Europe by custom, or making and obeying good Laws, work cheaper than we by 15 20.30. nay some of them Cent. per Cent. Usury at 6. per Cent. says my Discourser, is the occasion of all these; though I desire the Reader to take notice, that all Europe exceeds us in the rates of Usury, the State of Holland, and some Commonwealths of Italy only excepted; and some or all of these are unrestrained by their Laws, and at liberty to take as much for interest as they can get.  
Now if you will believe the Author of the foresaid Discourse, Usury at 3. or 4. per Cent may possibly make us sober, honest, and industrious, teach some of our neighbours more manners than refuse our manufactures, and others not to underfell us, or disturb our markets, improve our rents, double our yearly fruit and productions, restore industry, employ our poor, prevent the fatal destruction of our estates and timber, make the next War less costly, and set in good order whatever at present is amiss.  
But before we enter into a course of this Physic, it will be prudence carefully to examine, whether this simple drug of Usury, subdued, beat, and pouned to 3. or 4. per Cent. may reasonably be thought to be able to produce the promised effects; for though in desperate cases wise Patients may make use of Mountebanks, yet they will not pin their reason and welfare upon the fancy and opinion of every bold undertaker, when there is no necessity for it.  
I shall here crave leave to take notice of another late Book, entitled, Brief Observations concerning Trade, and interest of money, lately set forth by J. C. and therein examine some few passages; having first acknowledged, that the first 14. means, by which, as he alleadges, the Dutch have arrived to their vast trade and riches, are most rational Observations; and do hearty wish, that all or most of them were brought into practice here, especially that we had a Law to naturallize all Foreigners, and indulge them in indifferent matters of Religion, who should swear to be true to the Civil Government, and renounce dependence upon all foreign power.  
The particulars to be examined are,  
1. Where interest is high, the people (saith he) are poor, contemptible, and without trade; and so on the contrary, where interest is low, the people rich, and trade vigorous.  
2. That the abatement of interest is the first and principal engine which ought to be set on work for balancing of trade, which his Majesty recommended to this Parliament, at the opening of the last Session.  
3. That since, or by the several abatements of interest, we have so increased in riches, that now 2000 l. is esteemed no greater portion than 500 l. was 50. years ago, and a Knight now exceeds a Lord of those days in rich Cloth, Plate, Jewels, etc. and that we have almost 100 Coaches now for one we had then.  
First, (says he) where interest is high, the people are poor and contemptible, as Spain, Scotland, Ireland: what does he mean, because interest is high, the people are poor? yes, his main endeavours are to prove this point.  
Answ. Surely they are either in love with their own poverty, or else interest would soon be subdued, if they could imagine any such thing; would Scotland, etc. be long poor, when such a Law might make them rich? pray therefore ought it to be alleged, that they are poor, and without trade, because interest is high; or interest is high, because they are without trade, and poor?  
Height of interest, where money is scarce, is no more the cause of poverty, (though it does attend it commonly) than cheapness of provisions, and smallness of wages, (which are frequently found in poor Countries) the cause of that poverty; want of good situation, ports, money, and commerce, being the cause thereof.  
Low interest is both in nature and time subsequent to riches; and he that says low Usury begets riches, takes the effect for the cause, the child for the mother, and puts the cart before the horse: for certainly a Nation must be rich before interest can naturally be low, else it seems to me they begin at the wrong end; and he that maintains the contrary, opposeth his own private opinion against the general practice of all Europe; a famous instance whereof we have in Holland, where riches do so abound, and many lender's, and few borrowers, that interest has of itself sunk within this 40. years from 6. or 7. to 3. or 4. per Cent. even without a Law; which sufficiently proves low interest to be the effect of riches, and this the effect of a well managed trade; and should I say, the growing of grass is the cause of the Spring, and not the effect, or the Sun approacheth as the heat increaseth, which heat is only consequent to the Sun's approach, I should (I humbly conceive) speak as properly, as those who say low interest is the cause of trade and riches; for in truth, and in proper speaking, trade has not increased amongst the Dutch, as interest has lessened; but interest has lessened, as trade and riches have augmented; since they have nothing hinders their taking 20. per Cent. but their vast riches, and prosperity: but here with us, and in all Countries where money is scarce, how difficult is it to restrain interest within its legal bounds, not occasioned, surely, so much through the rapine and severity of the lender, as by reason of the scarcity of money, and multitude of borrowers; so ripe are affairs with us to be wedded to higher interest, and so servant nature is to have its course.  
Besides, are not the people of Spain, and the natural Irish, ignominious, lazy, proud, and accustomed to idleness? and yet is not Ireland greatly improved by the industry of the late English Soldiery; (as himself confesseth, page 8.) and trade increased answerable to the vent? so that we see, 'tis the people, not Usury, that makes a Country rich, or poor: though I confess I am not for raising interest above the present rate, unless it would keep our money at home, bring forth our hoarded treasure, prevent our excess, and luxury, and keep us, for mere fear of the Usurer, within our proper bounds.  
Again, Is not Scotland ill scited for trade, and has as few commodities, as ports, the want of any of which is sufficient to baffle the most miraculous industry? and here we see a Country, not Usury, makes the inhabitants poor and needy,  
Does not the Spaniard content himself to sit still, whilst others work for him, bring him commodities for his back, and his belly, and in exchange get his money by cleanly conveyance? here we see a people make a Country poor to will subduing interest cure them of these follies, and mend the Scite, Ports, and Commodities, of Scotland? On the other hand, has abatement of Usury, or some other sublime policies, obliged the French of late to set upon trade and manufacture? J. C. dare not touch on that string, in regard that Nation has not for many years altered interest from 7. per Cent. Does Italy or Holland own their trade and riches to the smallness of Usury, or to their innate frugality, wonderful industry, many admirable arts and policies, which we want, fomented by the fortunateness of their Situations? Surely these have increased their wealth, and made interest-low, as it were by a natural Law; but he that attributes their riches to the former, shows his passion, and robs those Nations of their proper virtues.  
Secondly, That the abatement of interest is the first and principal Engine, which ought to be set on work for balancing trade, etc.  
Having occasion throughout my whole Discourse, to examine whether interest ought to be abated, or no, I shall not here insist upon it, only inquire at present, whether some other matter ought not first and principally to be regulated, in order to balancing of trade; the which being not speedily done, will le●ve no money to lend; and yet this is a trade which low interest for some small time possibly might increase, but 'tis a trade that gnaws upon our very bowels, and consumes our marrow; a trade that carries inevitable poverty along with it, ruins ourselves, and makes our neighbours rich, viz. the vain and prodigious consumption of foreign commodities, which daily sucks our treasure from us, whilst our native productions are of no estimation, and our mechanics fit idle for want of employment, when in the mean time foreigners inhabiting amongst us are the only workmen in vogue, and no commodity of any value unless that, or the vender speak French, so that our industrious people are oftentimes compelled to employ French, to sell English manufactures under French terms.  
Great are the numbers that daily come from Paris and Flanders, with Laces, Ribbon, Gloves, Hats, Scissors, Fans, Hair for Periwigs, Jessemee, Perfumes, and what not, in defiance of good Laws to the contrary; all which are sold sooner and better by these people, to our inconsiderate Gallants, (who regard only the enjoying their own humours, else they would abhor all foreign manufactures, for the pernicious consequence thereof) than our own traders can sell half so much of the like English manufactures, and which is worse, the product of these commodities is invested in our gold, and by slight of hand conveyed abroad; just as the poor Spaniard is served: Nay, I have been informed, that our Posts weekly bring out of Italy 7. or 800. l. worth of Points, or needle-worked Laces, the materials whereof not costing them 5. l. which draws from us so great a sum, all the rest being only for art and labour, whilst in the mean time our own people that can work those Laces, (though haply not altogether so cheap) want employment.  
Must we not come to inevitable ruin by consuming 7. or 800000. l. per annum in French Wines, Salt, Linen, Silks, Stuffs, and unnecessary trifles, (which our own mechanics could abundantly supply us with, would we content ourselves with our home commodities) much of all which are brought in by our proper coin, (which being of greater value abroad, than at home, encourageth the Merchant to convey it away, wherein there is no hope of redress, until we raise the value thereof from time to time, as our neighbours advance theirs, or else find some other expedient) whilst liquors, and manufactures of our own Nation, which is the only support of our rents and estates, lie on our hands.  
Object. Yea but admit a stop upon foreign gaieties, good Wines, etc. we should all turn mighty husbands, and become thrifty, (which Sr. Thomas says, he is not in love with, when 'tis rendered so necessary) pray who shall maintain his Majesty's Revenue; or if our foreign trade decay, what will become of Navigation?  
Answ. As for his Majesty's Revenue, pray whether is it better to save a shilling, and give his Majesty a penny by Land-Tax, Poll, or Subsidy, or spend a shilling upon foreign superfluities, (which otherwise I can be well enough without) that his Majesty's Customs may increase a penny: the great Marcus Cato, by the report of Plutarch, thought any thing too dear, whereof he had no need, though it cost but a farthing, and yet was very liberal to the Commonwealth.  
Again, I do not at all argue against unnecessary consumptions, but against consumptions of foreign commodities, unless they be brought in by our native growths, or manufactures: I say, (speaking as a man) 'tis not wrong to the Commonwealth, if men of estates drink, drab, live profusely, and die beggars, as long as every penny comes to the natives, or whether families be new or ancient; not but that I esteem all wellborn men, whose manners are answerable, yet 'tis all one to the public whether John at Noke or John at Stiles be the rich man, the mischief only is, when foreigners are the better for this disorder, for that does insensibly ruin the Commonwealth. Whatever the first resembles, the latter (I am sure) is like a broken vein that bleeds inwardly, which if not timely stopped, brings inevitable death.  
As for that other Objection, If foreign trade decay what shall become of Navigation, which is our only security: I hope no man intends by a prudent ad just trade, to ruin trade, or by putting bars to our intemperance and luxury, to destroy Navigation; only I would have our neighbours in our debt at the foot of every account; which if we cannot, by reason of our excess in foreign commodities, I dare avow it, it were better to fit still, and not trade at all, but debauch, and riot it (if nothing else will serve the turn) upon our own growths and manufactures, and obey that spend most pay most to his Majesty's Revenue, to maintain a Fleet of War for our defence only, for by that means we should at feast keep amongst us what already we enjoy, which it seems is more than by our present trade we can do.  
The third and last Argument of J. C. which I am to examine is, That since the several abatements of interest, (he means, by the several abatements of interest, or else he says nothing, for if it be only since, low Usury has no share in it) (no more than Coffee had in the late Rebellion, about which time that black Broth was first seen in England) we have so increased in riches, that 2000 l. new is esteemed no greater portion than 500 l. 50 years ago, and that a Knight now exceeds a Lord of those times in rich , Plate, etc. and that we have almost 100 Coaches now for one we had then, etc.  
Answ. Indeed our portions in the Southward parts are in a good measure increased, but not so largely as is alleged by much, unless amongst the traders: and for the North and West, I do appeal, whether the Gentry there, of 5. or 600. l. per annum, having five or six children, do now commonly give above 6. or 700. l. portion with a daughter, being well informed, that a Gentleman of the like estate, with as many children, gave 5. or 600. l. 40. years ago: and I verily believe, they were as well able to give as large portions then, as at this present, only it was not customary nor requisite, in regard that 500 l. then at 8. per Cent. was almost equivalent to 700. l. at 6. per Cent. for we may be confident, that as interest decreaseth, portions must increase, or our Daughters must turn Chambermaids, or set up the laudable trade; and this increase of portions, where the issue is numerous, shall hurt our Gentry more, than ever subduing interest shall do them good any other way, and has been already a great means of decaying estates and families.  
As for the excess in our apparel and furniture, most certain it has increased, and diffused itself like a contagion through all sorts and degrees of men, especially in the Towns, and meaner sort of people, within these 20. or 30. years. And who knows not, that excess and riot has its fluxes and refluxes in States and Kingdoms, as well as other vices and virtues too? and therefore I may as truly say, that mere reducing interest has occasioned this delicacy and excess, as that it has begot trade and commerce, or that Tenderden Steeple caused Godwin Sands, or Hops brought heresy into England, because immediately before the Reformation began here, that plant was first known amongst us, which occasioned that jesting Proverb; whereas the very truth is, our excess and luxury have been enlarging their dominion over us these many years, and they have created trade, which has increased just so, and no otherwise, but as our vanity hath given it nourishment.  
If our Exchange (as J. C. tells the world) hath now many more rich Merchants than what were 50. years ago, (though I am credibly informed there are now many fewer than what were within these 20. or 30. years) they are, I am afraid, made rich merely by the excess and vanity of our own people, who are but so much poorer in the Country, where most certainly we want many of the rich men we had 30 or 40. years ago; and where in stead of a very wealthy yeoman, we have now a Knight or Gentleman plunged in debt: and thus what we gain in the City we lose in the Country, whereas indeed nothing makes us properly rich, but what we gain from the foreigner.  
And upon this account needs must we have a trade (such an one as it is) to make some men rich, and our Gentry change place with the Citizen, when we yearly spend in French Wine about 20000. Tun, according to a late report made to the Honourable House of Commons by the Farmers of the Customs; who, I suppose, see not all the liquor that goes by their mill, or else made not an exact report thereof; for I have been informed, (and I verily believe it) that a far greater quantity is yearly imported; now 20000 Tun, reckoning 240. gallons to the Tun, at 2. s. 8. d. the gallon, which is 8. d. the quart, the allowed price (much more being daily paid, besides the new duty of 4. d. the quart) amounts unto 640000 l.  
Were the like computation made of Spanish Wines, Rhenish, the Wines of the Islands, and the Levant, which far exceeds the former, and an account taken of our Tobacco, (which I am willing to spare for the good of our own Plantations) Coffee, and all the other new brought-over drinks, and a just enquiry made what we spent annually therein 50. years ago, it may be easily judged, whether the increase of debauchery and excess, or abatement of interest, has increased our consumption herein: and be it so, as J. C. would feign have it, that Usnry subdued brought on this thriving trade, (that is, fuddling) and by the like farther reduction may increase it still, no doubt but we own great thanks to the promoters thereof; but if excess and luxury, without regard had to low interest, trade, or riches, introduced this monstrous consumption, (as I conceive all unprejudiced men will confess, since this excess has reduced infinite numbers amongst us to the last farthing) and a becoming temperance once again take pl●ce, must not the effect ce●se also, let Usury be what it will: so that the quickness of trade has not been the effect of subduction of interest, as all the patrons of this design, cunningly but unduly allege, but the effect of our excess, and daily increase of our intemperance; unless they durst say, that men, to the great improvement of trade, have been emboldened to increase their expense and extravagancies, just as interest lessened, and the fear of the Usurer taken away. And upon this account it was well observed by a right worthy and judicious Kentish Baronet, with whom I have had the honour to discourse this Article, that we might have a vast increase of trade, and yet the Nation decrease in riches; that is, such a trade, begot by an unreasonable expense of foreign, vain, and luxurious commodities, whilst our own are neglected, as may easily be imagined to lead on a most certain decay: and that our consumption of foreign growths and manufactures does vastly exceed the exportation of our native commodities, I freely appeal to the Farmers of his Majesty's Customs; and if so, our Coin must undoubtedly be conveyed abroad to pay the debt, for debts must be paid, which let it be what it will, we remain yearly so much the poorer, for all our brags, imaginary trade, and riches.  
To conclude, if our Coaches, and gayities, excess, and luxury, be the undoubted arguments of trade and riches, (as is alleged) what is the reason of the general complaint of deadness and decay of trade, running into debt of most, and poverty of all sorts and degrees of men, prodigious increase of our Parish Poor, and failing of our native manufactures, so that infinite numbers formerly maintained thereby, sit now in want and idleness. Let J. C. cajole the world as he pleaseth, I shrewdly suspect 'tis with us in our excess and delicacies, as some men report merrily of themselves, that when they have least money, wear their best , and appear finest; for surely our greatest present trade is nought else but the vast consumption of foreign and luxurious commodities, much whereof are imported by our proper Coin; so that if our riches and trade must be measured by our finery, excess, large portions, etc. J. C.'s Argument will hold, otherwise 'tis deceitful and hollow; and smells strong of the honest Country fellow, who being newly come to Town, concludes all men here rich that look big, and are fine.  
And now I proceed to examine the most material passages in Sr. Thomas his Discourse, with this protestation, that being in quest of the cause of the debts of our Nobility and Gentry, the hindrance of improvements, and ingenious projects, the destruction of our timber, the decay of our manufactures, and obstruction of trade, I have endeavoured (I hope, not like an ignorant Constable, with Hue and Cry, seize upon all he finds, without distinction; nor like one, who by virtue of his Office, revengeth himself upon the score of an old grudge, but) like a downright and honest Physician, to discover what I find upon apparent grounds to be the original cause thereof, without which method, according to the rules of Physic, the cure would be uncertain: he that will perfectly cure our hurts, must dress the weapon that gave the wounds, and apply the remedy to the proper place; in pursuance whereof, my hope is to find none so disingenuous, or in love with a disease, (especially amongst men of Honour, whose servant I am) as to be offended, when, for the good of the whole, and in order to a cure, I have searched to the bottom, detected the nocent, and let the innocent go free.  
For what remains, I have this only to offer, that these Papers having been conceived and formed near these fifteen months, and shaped as affairs than stood, without full resolution to bring them to the birth, (supposing no Brat of mine worthy of public view) the dextrous encouragement of some Friends has played the Midwife, and prevailed with me at last to expose them, in this juncture, to the wide World; with what deformities, I modestly submit to the Verdict of my Country.   


The Propositions laid down by Sr. Thomas Culpepper in his Discourse, and examined and answered by the Author of this present Treatise.  

1. IT will (says Sir Thomas) supply his Majesty's present wants, even by a Land Tax, (if better expedients be not offered) which both the Landlord and Tenant may afford (once more) to admit, being eased and recompensed another way; the Usurer (who could never yet be taxed to any purpose) in effect, contributing equally with him. 1.  
2. It will, in a short time, double, if not treble, the yearly fruit and product of our Lands, (the only solid Basis of our wealth and trade) by enabling, encouraging, and even enforcing improvements of all kinds: whereby we may afford to under-sell our neighbours, who now under-soll us. 9  
3. It will revive our dying Manufactures, by making the stock of it cheap, and the Market quick. 22.  
4. It will plentifully relieve the poor, by setting all our heads and hands on work; in the Countries for improvement of Land, and in the Cities and Towns by the way of Manufacture and Trade. 34.  
5. It only can prevent the fatal destruction of our Timber. 40.  
6. It will pay the Debts of the whole Gentry, by timely sales, and yet leave them (one with another) better Estates than now they have. 48.  
7. It will make Money so easy to be borrowed, that even the Lender must shortly pay the Broker and Conveyancer. 

1. By diminishing the number of Borrowers.  
2. By clearing the encumbrances of Borrowers.  
3. By enlarging the security of Borrowers.   56.  
8. It only can rebuild London, profitably as to the Builder, speedily as to the public. 69.  
9 And lastly, It will inviolably establish the Crown of England. 

1. By the advancement of all his Majesty's Revenues.  
2. By the welfare of all his Majesty's Subjects.  
3. By making Land (which is in safe hands) the overbalancing Scale of wealth and power.   72.  
The Mischiefs summed up, which low Interest will bring. 77.  
A particular Discourse concerning the raising the value of our Money, and making foreign Coin as valuable here as it is abroad. 82.    

His first Proposition examined and answered.  It (that is, reducing Usury)) will supply (saith Sir Thomas) his Majesty's present wants, even by a Land-Tax, if better expedients be not offered, which both Landlord and Tenant may afford once more to admit, being eased and recompensed another way, the Usurer (who could never yet be taxed to any purpose) in effect contributing equally with him. 
WEll then, a Tax we must have, be it only to dispose Authority to subdue Interest: The question is, which way at present to raise moneys, so as may most agree with equity, and conduce to the ease and benefit of the Commonwealth.  
Many expedients are put into the balance by my worthy Discourser, and all found too light, either in respect of time or mode, and at last he runs upon the rock (as he terms it) of a Land-Tax.  
But can the Land bear it? yes, says he, provide him but a crew of money-mongers, who may (in effect) contribute equally with the Land.  
We may once more (cries he) endure the burden of a Land-Tax, mitigate but the grand pressure of Usury; that is, (being translated into English) those who are actually in debt can pay one Tax more, in case one third of their growing Interest were abated, thereby (it may be) gratifying one of them with the abatement of 2. or 300. l. per annum, to eternity, out of an honest Creditors purse, for the payment (possibly) of 200. l. to the public for a year. Is not this robbing Peter to pay Paul, and cutting large thongs out of other men's hides? a fine way of paying debts, and raising Taxes: no better expedient in the world for men in debt; for be sure, if all the other fine things promised, fail, one thing will hold, interest will be lessened, and the Usurer will (in effect, yea, and with a vengeance too) contribute equally with them: nay pray reckon the poor man right, whatever your payments are; for to my knowledge he shall (thus) pay fifteen times as much; and which is fifteen times worse, be jeered to boot, by persuading him 'tis to do him good, even against his will, as my Discourser hath it in his Preface.  
This is a witty way to rid us quickly of all Usurers, and send them hastily into the other world.  
And good reason, for they are (if you will wink and believe my Discourser) the grand Excise-men of our Land and trade, a burden that makes the Land groan. Pray not so eager. Who laid this Excise upon our Land or trade; the Usurer, or Borrower? was it done by mere legerdemain of the Usurer? he swears he sought not for the Gentleman or Trader, he had, something else to do with his money, if they would have let him alone; for he is a Merchant himself, a Freeholder, (Usury is not his calling, as Sr. Thomas in Drollery terms it) or an industrious Tradesman, nay a Gentleman, (to save my Discourser the trouble of making him one) and what would you have him do, let his neighbour sink, go to prison, sell his goods to Lurchers at 20. per Cent. loss, break off the marriage of a daughter, and for these kindnesses to his fellow-Gentleman, fellow-Trader, etc. he is now by their Champion defied to his face, rewarded with hard language, and terms of comparison, which no worthy borrower will thank him for; and endeavours are used to defeat him of his Interest, yea and (I think) of his principal too, by wishing he may not thrive in lending thereof; because, forsooth, his betters do not thrive by the borrowing of it; which peradventure, some of them never would, were money lent them gratis: thus it commonly proves when men demand lent money: these sort of wishes (whereof this is not the first I have, on this occasion, seen published within these forty five years) seem to be of an odd and distempered nature, and have a strange tang with them.  
Object. Pray then why takes he so much Usury? is not 3. or 4. per Cent. enough in all conscience? and what though the borrower by his industry and skill makes 20. or 30. per Cent. or winds himself out of trouble by the money; 'tis the conduct of the man, not the money, that does the feat.  
Answ. 1. This money the lender got by great industry, and kept it by him useless these six months, and now his neighbour having urgent occasion for such a sum, borrows it, when peradventure the lender within ten days after might have got 15. l. by a bargain himself, in case he had kept his money by him, and borrow suddenly he cannot; Or 2. this money is the whole livelihood of a Widow, Orphan, etc. who lending it to a man that gains 15. per Cent. (for so much I believe all traders do) is it not reasonable the lender should have at least one half thereof, as well in respect of the hazard he runs, as of the benefit the borrower makes; for as it is true, money of itself increaseth not, without the conduct of the man, so the skill of the man, without the help of the money, would signify little; as the lame man and blind man mutually assisted one another. 3. Can any man repine at the giving 6. per Cent. when the advantage thereby supports him and his all his days, and enables him to appear in the world as a man of repute? 4. No man will keep money by him with intentions to lend for so poor a praemium as 4. per Cent. which will hardly reward the telling in and out, and make good the brass money; much less answer the hazard of lending, which is so considerable in this deceitful age, (wherein persons and estates bid defiance to our Laws at some seasons of the year) that I persuade myself the Insurance-Office would demand above 30. s. per 100 l. to secure the moneys lent on security in England. 5. and lastly, Scarce any man in the whole Nation complains of 6. per Cent. but the Gentleman, who of all mankind has the least reason; for were it not (generally speaking) his own fault, he has the least occasion of any man to borrow; tradesmen must borrow, and make advantage, but I am yet to learn what puts our Gentry upon considerable borrowing, except such things I am not willing to record; since not one in seven borrows to advance any laudable improvement.  
There is another sort of men (viz. Gentlemen not in debt) concerned in this conditional Tax, who are not to expect present advantage by subduing Interest, but are to solace themselves with an assurance of future improvement of their inheritances in value, as certain as if it were in their purses, saith my Discourser; what stomaches these Gentlemen will have to swallow these sweet-bitter pills, compounded of a large Tax certain, and profit uncertain, I refer to their midnight thoughts, and leave them casting about how they may improve their Lands and Tenements, or raise a Farm (now) 100 l. per annum, to at least 130. l. in the future, or when they have a mind to sell it, how they may have 25. years' purchase upon the improved Rent. These are fine things to shorten a long winter's night, when a man cannot sleep; but I am afraid they cannot hit on't; both ends will not meet, and my worthy Discourser must be put upon a new task; we must have a Book of new fashioned improvements, for our old ways will hardly keep up our old Rents; and when we see the happy effects thereof, the Author shall be to us Great Apollo.  
But our happiness is, we have a third sort of Landlords, (which Sr. Thomas did not please to think on) and I hope the one third of the Landlords in England, at least in weight, who are so far from being in debt, that by a happy conduct they are masters of considerable sums, and that upon Usury, (as he in severity calls it:) Now to deal alike with the Landlord-lender, and Landlord-borrower, in levying this imaginary Tax, is monstrous unequal; lay the same. Tax upon the Land of a Gentleman-Usurer, (if Sr. Thomas will admit the term) and sink one third of the income of his money, (which peradventure is half his estate) is to undo him quite; and for the Landlord-borrower, to tax his Land once more, and abate one third of his Usury, is (possibly) to recompense him 10. or 15. fold at another man's charge, and allay (peradventure) the violence of the disease for a while, but death lies at the door, and without better remedies, on his part, then mere abating Usury at last enters, and so two men are undone without saving either.  
And this will be the consequence of our fine Tax, cunningly proposed to make the intrigue of subduing Usury go down the glibber with some body; which I humbly conceive were much better to keep up, and find out a way like that of a Register, (so long and passionately desired) which at once might enable the solvent Gentleman to borrow easily (which now he cannot do) on all occasions, reasonably secure the money lent, affright men from running greatly into debt, lest their nakedness appear, prevent ten thousand frauds, and as many Lawsuits, dis-serve none but the insolvent and ill-minded men, and direct the State upon all emergencies to lay impositions on it, equal to the Land-Taxes, (if they must continue, as God forbidden they should) whereby the burden thereof may be greatly easy, and nothing done but what is agreeable to justice.   

His second Proposition examined and answered.  That it will (says he) in a short time double, if not treble the yearly fruit and product of our Lands, (the only solid Basis of our wealth and trade) by enabling, encouraging, and even enforcing improvements of all kinds, whereby we may afford to under-sell our Neighbours, who now under-sell us. 
THat the improvements of our Lands, as far as the nature of them will permit, and the capital charge secured, is (as Sr. Thomas well observes) the only solid Basis of our wealth and trade, I think no man so mad as to deny: since traffic that does not contribute thereunto, is but making our Neighbours rich, and undoing ourselves, as hath been, I hope, fully remonstrated in the Introduction to this Discourse.  
The Question is, what compass we shall steer by to arrive at the Haven of these imaginary improvements; whereby we might raise the productions of our Lands to so great an increase and cheapness, that we might afford to under-sell our Neighbours, who now under-sell us, and force the people of every Country to throw their plough and wheel, and all industry into the fire since they can buy Corn, Cloth, Fruit, Fish, Flesh, and what not, cheaper of us, than make or provide them at their own homes: Why, saith my Discourser, sink Interest, that's his medicine for all maladies, to 3. or 4. per Cent. and it does the feat I warrant you: for having nothing else to do with our money, we shall be forced upon laudable improvements, we shall so dung and manure our Lands, (like a late project we had to propagate 200 grains of wheat from one) corn shall increase; to under-sell Dantzick. Our Sheep must needs multiply, yea, and magnify too, saith my Discourser, through the richness of our pastures, that our Grazier, and by consequence our Clothier, may afford cheap pennyworths. We shall have fruit not worth gathering, fish to beat the Hollander out of his markets; and for flesh, our thrifty neighbours shall not need (as now they do) to feed upon Roots, Colworts, and red Herrings, we will sell them flesh better cheap. Holstein, Juitland, and Germany too shall yield to our markets, for Ireland shall be our nursery for Cattle, and we will sat them for the slaughter. These are, I conceive, either expressly or implicitly contained in this second Proposition, which before I come to examine, I must crave leave to ask a few questions of my Discourser.  
Does he really believe that height of Interest, and not dearness of wages, which is almost the whole charge in improvements, hinders all laudable designs and projects? if he do, he must maintain that 2. or 3. per Cent. in Usury must hinder more (and that seems somewhat strange) than 15.20.30. per Cent. does in labour and wages, for so much are we dearer therein than all foreigners, and (which must be of most pernicious consequence) 12. or 16. per Cent. dearer than ourselves were within these 16. years.  
Where is now the treasure of the Nation? lying idle? locked up in the miser's chests? if it be now at 6. per Cent. much more will it be at 3. or 4. If it be now employed upon some good occasions, either by the owners or borrowers, (as I think no man will deny, it being so scarce to be borrowed; or else 'tis carried out of the Nation, both by the Merchant and some body else, and this I conceive is truest) it can be but employed, reduce Usury to what you please, only the borrower shall hav● 2. per Cent. more profit, which concerns not the Commonwealth at all.  
For the better examining this Proposition, we will inquire,  
First, Whether subduing Interest will operate at home to those wonderful degrees promised; that is, double, nay triple the yearly fruit and product of our Lands, and secure the capital charge laid out upon them, whereby we shall be enabled to under-sell our neighbours, who now under-sell us. And then,  
Secondly, Whether it will oblige foreigners to fit still, and take their food and raiment of our providing, granting it best cheap, whilst we get into our hands all the wealth and navigation; for unless this be the consequence of our increase, the mere increase itself would signify little.  
1. Whether subduing Interest to 3. or 4. per Cent. will force our people upon new improvements, the yearly fruit of our Lands shall be doubled, nay trebled profitably to the imployer.  
I wish it may: but I rather fear it will make him careless of his Coin, having been used to greater profit, he will venture all to try conclusions, and so between unskilfulness, discontent, and necessity, ruin one; I fear this will be the consequence of forcing men upon business to which their education and genius never led them: for if the pretended improvements fail, as most men of judgement assure me they will, I am sure decay must follow.  
But should I grant the design to prosper, and the fruit and product doubled for a year or two, yet may be occupier have no cause to brag of profit, when he has summed up the charge and wages of men and cattle.  
Land may be made to yield triple increase, and yet not answer the charge, without reckoning much Usury. 'Tis well known most of the Lands in England are either upon their best improvements, or our discreet Farmers are to seek in their calling; unless I should grant (what in strictness is true) that Land is of that nature as never to be at its full improvement, as long as the Occupier will bestow yet greater charge upon it; and in this sense, every acre may be made as good as the best Gatdens about London: but still the question remains, how the improver shall be recompensed; nay I should judge the man ripe for Bedlam that attempts it, though Interest were at 2. per Cent. the mending of some Lands may be like the making a fine dish of meat of a Shooe-soal, where other chargeable ingredients have the dominion, it will never quit cost: the doubt is not so much whether Black-heath will answer Interest at 3. or 6. per Cent. as whether it will honestly return the capital charge bestowed on it. Can I accomplish that for 60. l. which now costs me 90. l. merely in respect of dear wages, I should find other sort of encouragement than by abating of a little Usury; for then, what might not be expected from industry thus armed? for though the Interest of 60. l. at 6. per Cent. cost me as much as 90. l. at 4. per Cent. yet should I save 30. l. of the capital in the improvement or project, whereby either the success would be then more gainful, or the miscarriage not so fatal. And this is the advantage the foreigner hath over us.  
'tis dear wages then, and not Usury, nor want of ingenuity, that makes projects and improvements so unsuccessful amongst us, whilst they thrive with our neighbours, as a worthy and judicious Scotch Commander, well known in England, and experienced in several foreign Countries, was pleased within these eight months to observe to a near Relation of mine, alleging, that the dearness of our wages, compared with other Nations, was alone sufficient to discourage all improvements, and destroy manufactures; so that either we must have more efficacious Laws to retrench wages, or else all industry must suddenly cease; so vain is it to cut channels, as long as the fountain and springs are stopped up.  
And yet in this very thing of projects and industry, let me be excused, if I prefer many foreigners before ourselves, and do appeal to those who know the fens in Lincolnshire, etc. whether the French, Dutch, and Walloons, inhabiting those parts, do not manure those Lands with greater ingenuity, thrift, and industry, and grow richer thereon, (number for number) than their English neighbours, who through easiness content themselves with one crop in the year, whilst the other by their industry make some greater advantage: besides, who knows not that these Lands were gained principally by the skill and ingenuity of these people.  
What ways soever we take to pursue improvements, labour is almost the whole charge: Pasture is to be mended either by Dung, Sea-Sand, Clover, Cinquefoyle, or the like; Tillage by Dung, Sand, Lime, Chalk, Marle, burning the Turf or Stubble, etc. in most of which labour is the principal charge; now for any of these, I would appeal to the impartial and industrious, whether the consideration of 6. per Cent. be it their own, or borrowed of the Usurer, has discouraged improvements, or whether they have not rather feared a cheap year, want of vent, (as at this time) dear wages, and impairing the capital, and thought of Interest, as Tradesmen do of paper and pack-thread.  
Let Usury and industry be what you please, improvements so as to double the yearly fruit are not so easily accomplished, as some men fond imagine. 'Tis the Philosopher's Stone, and the dull Farmer cannot find it out: all his skill can hardly raise the yearly product, to answer the rent he is now racked at, though he pays not a penny Usury. I could name a witty man projectingly given, that used to say the Farmers were fools, whilst he pursuing new ways of husbandry after his own invention, employing many labourers, and teams at dear rates, setting, planting, and sowing foreign seeds and commodities, (some of the very same improvements my Discourser aims at) under the notion of improvements; keeping his Corn, Cattle, Timber, etc. for imaginary markets, and other wilful and conceited projects, wherein debauchery had no share, nor Usury, (as far as I could learn) till the latter part of the day brought 1500. l. per annum to a trifle.  
Force or flatter men by 3. or 4. per Cent. upon such improvements, and we shall have, no doubt, a rich world of't.  
As for improvements by Plantations, my Discourser is pleased to say, the benefit thereof is scarce credible, and that the pasture (if trees stand not too thick) is rather better, and that ofttimes a planted acre yields more profit (without charge) than many acres of the best tillage, and yet (which is scarce credible) but that he says it) at the next line he affirms, we forfeit this improvement, merely because it will not answer forbearance at 6. per Cent. the truth whereof let us here examine, and judge of the rest as we find this.  
To plant an acre of ground requires 140. trees, I mean Cherry-trees, being ungrafted, (which is best) the cost at 4. d. per tree is 2. l. 6. s. 8. d. and planting 6. s. Having planted them, you may use your ground either to gardening or tillage, having respect not to come too near the tree or root with the plough, keeping the roots from colds and heats, with muck or straw. The third year you may graft them, which shall cost 2. s. still continuing tillage, with great care of the roots; and thus you may do till the seventh or eighth year: this, I think, is all the charge, besides the fences, in planting an acre of ground, viz. 2. l. 14. s. 8. d. Indeed I have heard that some have given the ground five or six years together, upon condition to garden it, and preserve the trees, but then the Land is poor, and remote from some good Town, which in six years at 6. s. the acre is 36. s. whereby my charge in this case is now become 4. l. 10. s. 8. d. After the sixth or seventh year I am sure to hire the blossom of this acre for thirty or forty years, if it be well seited, and apt to bear, for about 30. s. per annum, besides the Turf; and now let any one judge if 6. per Cent. be the criminal, and if the hubub be not raised on a doughty occasion.  
But the complaint is prosecuted farther, according to the honest rule, accuse lustily, and something will stick: Plantations are confined in effect to four or five Counties, and there but thin, but if Usury were subdued would soon become general: what, whether the soil or air be proper or no, or vent to be had? what should we do with more than each County would spend? we should find no great markets abroad for such trash, nor vent for our Pippins, though a lasting and delicate fruit. Our Cherry ●●●●ations in Kent would soon be destroyed but for the neighbourhood of London, for when her mouth was stopped by the late Contagion, that fruit was scarce worth gathering. However, we have vast quantities of fruit in many parts of England, (where the soil and air by experience are found proper) for our domestic occasions; and more we might have, without reducing Usury, would our Gallants spend more of their time and money upon laudable improvements in the Country, instead of wasting so much in London: and that my Discourser may see how well one remote County is planted, which plantations were certainly made when money was at 10. l. per Cent. I do assure him that in June, July, and August, 1654. I bought about 1100. hogsheads of old Cider within 15. or 16. mile's compass of Plymouth, and surely that part would have afforded at another season much more; since that, I have been informed, one Parish, nine miles from Plymouth, wherein Sr. Francis Drake then lived, has in a plentiful year yielded 800. hogsheads of that commodity: so that here is great cry and little wool.  
But should I grant (which I shall never do, till I have better evidence) that were Interest at three or four per Cent, our yearly fruit and product would be doubled, and the Capital maintained, which was employed to propagate this increase, whereby we should be enabled to under-sell our neighbours, will it therefore follow that the foreigner will sit with his arms across, and take his food (and raiment too) of our providing, whilst we get into our hands the Wealth and Navigation of Europe: if this would have done it, I wish we had had the experiment before the late Dutch War, it might have saved us Blood, and Treasure to a wonder.  
But in good earnest, shall we under-sell our neighbours? and will they long endure it? by what rare arts shall we keep the knowledge of this hidden vein from them? will not the cause of our underselling them be apparent enough? and will not they, if that will do, take the same course, and shall not we then be just where we were before such retrenchments? me thinks I see our neighbour's smile at us, whilst we, like children, wink and fancy ourselves invisible. Will the Hollander, who lives cheaper, in food and raiment, works cheaper, sails cheaper, builds Ships cheaper, Navigates cheaper, and has a Noble for our nine pence, be ever undersold in the same commodities they have in common with us? shall we ever hope for such crops to oblige Holland and Dantzick to pull down their Granaries? why then want we plentiful Markets abroad for our Corn (for most certain, Markets we want) now wheat is not worth above 2. s. and 2. s. 4. d. the Winchester bushel, in many parts of England? and though 'tis true, we cannot afford to sell at that price, yet shall we at the Rents we sit at, (which our alleged must be higher, when Usury is lower) and wages we pay (though Usury were at three per Cent.) ever hope to have such crops, that we might cheerfully afford to sell at that price? he that maintains this proposition, is either highly confident of his own abilities, or of the credulity of others.  
The Dutch are not the men I take them for, if they let fall their Navigation, and Manufactures, be wormed out of Trade, give way to any Rival, and let their people beg about their streets. A poor man must use miraculous industry to beat a rich man out of Trade: has the French King lately spied out the secret of Trade and Manufacture, and drives on Jehu-like, and will this new project of our nip him in the bud? make him revoke his frequent edicts against our Drapery, suffer his people to sit idle, eat our Bread, and wear our Manufactures, merely in regard of cheapness? a good argument, I confess, amongst the ignorant and brutish people, who see not a yard from them, to discern the sad consequences of so great a folly: but wise men see farther, and reasons of State, and Government are laid much deeper. If abating Usury will really do these feats, I am for reducing it to what you please.  
But if upon the whole matter, it will, bona fide, neither triple nor double the yearly fruit and product of our Land, and secure the Capital, so as we may under-sell our Neighbours, and defy all Interlopers; much less assure that our Neighbours will sit still (without countermining, and fight us at our own wespon) whilst we thus imaginarily prosper, there is little reason to lose a certainty for an uncertainty, quite ruin Trade and Farming (which are now bad enough) by destroying the sure way of borrowing, which gives vigour to both, discourage just partimony, take so great a sum out of the purses of sober and provident people (surely this is not to make good the gentle robbery he elsewhere speaks of) either to try hollow experiments, or merely to repair the mistakes (at best) of other men; which I hearty fear, is, in effect to hazard in many the fulfilling Pharaohs dream a second time, wherein the lean Kine eat up the fat, and yet they themselves remained as poor as before.   

His third Proposition examined and answered.  It will (saith he) revive our dying Manufactures, by making the Stock of it cheap, and Market quick. 
THat the restauration and supportation of our decaying Manufactures would be of infinite benefit to this Nation is on all hands acknowledged; the which notwithstanding, runs by our own folly, (more ways than one) as well as by the industry of our neighbours into daily decay: The numbers the sole Manufacture of Wool has maintained is almost incredible, many whereof are now Parish charges, either for real want of employment, their own demerit, or refusing to work for such wages the imployer could afford them.  
This decay has been creeping upon us many years by many apparent ways, viz. the Dutch falling upon the same Manufacture to a great height, since the Peace of Munster 1647.  
The French, who formerly wore much of our Woollens, have wisely of late made edicts against them (and which is sadder, convey now to us much of their Silk and Woollen Manufactures, to our present reproach and furure ruin.) Our vent into Spain and Portugal is greatly lessened. So that in part or in whole we have lost three principal Markets. Add to these our deserting our own Drapery, since the excessive wear of Silks, Chamlets, French Stufs, etc. And would the Parliament be pleased to oblige the quick, as already they have done the dead, to the constant wearing of English Cloth, and Stufs, I humbly conceive they might thereby happily obtain their excellent design: For where vent fails, Manufactures must decay, though the first materials be never so cheap, otherwise I cannot see why we should have quick Markets for our Drapery, when Wool was at twelve and four-10. d. a pound, as within these twelve years, and want vent when it yields but 6. d. or 7. d. a pound, as now it doth: Now if we can neither afford our Wool at 7. d. the pound, nor yet find sufficient Markets for our Drapery after that rate, I must leave it to any unbias'd man, to judge how far abating Interest two per Cent. will mend the matter.  
Yes, says my Discourser, reduce Usury to the same standard with our neighbours, and we shall revive our dying Manufactures, to employ all our heads, and hands, that no doubt but we shall under-sell them all, retrieve our loft Markets, weary the Dutch in their industry, make linen as cheap as French or Flanders, vie with the Swede in his Iron Trade, and oblige them all to take our Commodities, because they shall be cheaper than their own. All which (without resembling them to Montebanks Bills, or the Devil shearing of Hogs) I flatly deny, (but wish hearty the experiment might hold,) and refere the Reader to this, and the precedent Chapter for satisfaction.  
But granting Usury were now to be abated, to what neighbours standard would he have it adjusted: to the French? no sure; they pay more than we; and yet who knows not that the French paying seven per Cent., under-sell us notwithstanding, in all manner of trifles, and Linen (which is one of our great consumptions) at least twelve or fourteen per Cent. besides Fraight, and Custom: no marvel then the Shop is in our light, since we can buy it there, almost as cheap as Flax and Weaving cost us at home, besides spinning; Nay the very French who within these ten years wore mostly our Gloves, are themselves fallen on this very Manufacture to that degree, that now they have in a manner beat us out of the Hambourgs Trade as to that commodity, merely by underselling us therein, to a great proportion, being favoured by their cheap labour only: now to propose the abatement of two per Cent. in Usury as a suitable remedy for this mischief, and to balance the odds in wages, which is above twenty per Cent. is like propping up a falling house with Bulrushes, or the Ren pissing in the Ocean.  
Surely then we need not be long in quest after that which gives the foreigner this great advantage over us, since I believe we have as good mechanics, and as lusty Labourers to dispatch work, as any of them; how can we then avow any other reasons than cheapness of provisions, course diet, and worse drink, parsimonious living and small wages, whereby, through a constant practice, most foreigners do that for four pence, which our people will not willingly perform for six pence: how thankful is a Barber at Paris for three solz; while one of ours in London will hardly be content with six pence; and at Brussels a poor man shall bless you more for the fourth part of a farthing (a coin not known here) than a beggar in England for a penny.  
Overvaluing our wages then, as has been already said, to maintain good eating and drinking, is the capital reason that all foreigners under-sell us, and ever will (till labour be cheaper;) and this we find true even amongst ourselves, where our Northern parts by reason of cheapness of victuals, course diet, and small wages, can profitably under-sell our Southern parts ten or fourteen in the hundred, though Interest be the same; our noble Workhouse in Clerken-well is like to run a hazard of decay, merely because it cannot in respect of dear wages, great salaries to Overseers, and other incident charges, which overswells the account (not reckoning Interest) afford its Manufactures as cheap as the foreigner.  
For example, he that borrows 100 l. at 16. l. 13. s. 4. d. per annum, and hairs his workmen at ten pence a day may afford his commodities at the very same rates, as he that borrows his money gratis, and gives twelve pence a day to his workmen.  
Now let him compare the rates of wages amongst us and our neighbours, nay Amsterdam itself, and if he does not find us at least two pence in a shilling (nay six pence more than some) which just answers Interest at 16. l. 13.4. d. dearer than any of them, which must needs operate upon the rates of commodities far more than subduing Interest can possibly remedy, I will give him leave to charge six pence with what crimes he pleaseth. And when he or any man else gives me a sufficient raeson why wages should be dearer within twenty or thirty miles of London then in Holland, I will for ever hereafter hold my tongue.  
Will our fuel and labour, which is the main charge of Iron, be ever as cheap as in Swedeland, though we knew not what Interest meant? my Discourser can at once acknowledge, that the Swede by undervaluing their Wood and work, can afford Iron much cheaper than we, and yet fearing (I suppose) the Reader might take the cheapness of theirr Wood and work to be the reason of the cheapness of their Iron, (which if it be not, I wonder what is, since their Interest is higher than ours,) can direct him to six per Cent. for imformation therein, who knows no more than the man in the Moon. Is not this to direct the blind out of the way; or at best, to send my neighbour on a slevesless errand?  
The general conspiracy amongst Artificers and labourers is so apparent, that within these twenty five years the wages of Joiner's, Bricklayers, Carpenters, etc. are increased, I mean within forty miles of London, (against all reason and good government) from eighteen and twenty pence a day to 2. s. 6. d. and 3. s. and mere Labourers from ten and twelve pence a day unto sixteen and twenty pence, and this not since the dreadful fire of London only, but sometime before.  
A journey man Shoemaker has now in London (and proportionably in the Country) fourteen pence for making that pair of Shoes, which within these twelve years he made for ten pence, and within these thirty years for seven or eight pence, as several Masters of that Trade assure me; and that their men have but just so much the more to spend in tipple, and remain now poorer than when their wages was less: the like complaint might be justly made of most other sorts of Journey men; whilst in the mean time, wages of most Artificers in Holland, or at least wise the gain made of their daily labour, have within these dozen years, either by their own prudence to quicken the vent of their commodities, knowing that light gain makes a heavy purse, or by some other accident been lessened above a fifth part.  
Nor has the increase of wages amongst us been occasioned by quickness of Trade, and want of hands (as some do suppose) which are indeed justifiable reasons, but through an exacting humour, and evil disposition in our people (like our Gravesend Watermens, who by some temporary, and mean pretences of the late Dutch war, have raised their ferry double to what it was, and finding the sweet thereof keep it up still) that so they may live the better above their station, and work so much the sewer days by how much the more they exact in their wages, else I cannot suppose but that they should be so much the richer by how much the more they have raised the value thereof; which that they are not, I conceive may be justly maintained.  
I know that want of employments, and very low wages are the common marks of a poor nation, yet can I not well allow, when I look about me in our Southern parts of England, that dear wages, and scarcity of people, willing to work, are always the signs of a rich and thriving commonwealth; because I know we have thousands of people miserably poor, yet will not work on such moderate terms the employers can cheerfully afford them, nor honestly earn six pence, because they fond imagine their labour worth nine pence, and so sit idle, without considering that something is better than nothing; nor are we without ten thousand youths who are never taught to get a penny, except by some unlawful gaming, to our great reproach: I confess indeed it were happy (as some allege) that wages were dearer amongst us, and diet too; provided always the same proceeded from quickness of Trade, that our whole stock of people might be duly employed, and that the rates of our Manufactures would bear in foreign Markets; otherwise the consequence thereof would be most pernicious.  
And now whilst our mechanics (whose numbers are not lessened) thus frequently raise the rates of their wages, Usury has been reduced, provisions grown cheaper, vent for our Manufactures daily lessened through the excessive wages of our Artificers; and they with the whole Nation dwindle into greater poverty, which sufficiently proves increase of wages to be a notorious prejudice to the Commonwealth, not to be cured by subduction of Interest.  
Yea, saith my Discourser, reduce but Interest (which like a Horse eats day and night, saith he, as if Rents of Houses and Lands did not the same thing) and these people would work cheaper; for do we not see, saith he, that at six per Cent. our poor Artificers, and Tradesman (though peradventure not one in ten ever borrowed 25. l. on Interest, which at six per Cent. is but a penny a day) without improvidence fail in great numbers. If he knows one provident man undone by Usury, I am sorry for it: I hope 'tis only a hasty word broke out in passion, and on calmer inquiry may be better informed the reasons of such decay: sure I am I know many who now live well, and borrow, who might probably sink, were they deprived of the means of borrowing; and ten Sots (nay twenty) for one sober man that come to beggary; and hardly ever knew just Interest only, without some worse tricks, undo any man, however fix per Cent. must bear the reproach, and be used like my Lady's Dog upon an ill savour.  
Sir Thomas becomes an Advocate for every man, rather than six per Cent. shall escape, so sharp set is he in the quarrel; the poor Fisherman who never owed above 20. l. on Usury, cannot neglect to catch Fish for a foreign Market or a Frydays dinner, but six per Cent. sticks to his Boat like the Fish Remora, and hinders his industry; the Dutch under-sell him abroad, and the Butcher at home; it seems the Butcher is a happy man, he either has his flesh dog-cheap, or borrows no money of the Usurer, else how he should under-sell the Fisherman, who has all for his labour, I see not.  
And should I now grant that our people were industrious, House-rents easy, wages, and materials as cheap as amongst our Neighbours, and Usury as low as in Holland, yet if our Merchants and Traders live at so great a rate as now they do (one of ours worth two or 3000. l. spending more in diet and apparel in one year then a Hollander of 50000. l.) how is it possible we should thrive on as easy gains as those who spend so much less, and trade so much more?  
Peradventure, now it may be replied that indeed we see dear wages, and excessive living raiseth the value of our commodities above what our Neighbours can afford them, the more reason we have to bring down Usury, that so we may have the advantage of them by that means to balance the odds the other way.  
Answer: 1. The difference is so great the other way between us and them, that two or three per Cent in Usury will not at all mend the matter, and as good never the whit as never the better.  
2. If this way will do, all foreigners will take the same course, rather than lose an inch of Trade.  
3. Remove obstructions first from the source and Fountain, which is dear wages, profuse living and the money Trade, and then open the Channel as occasion shall serve.  
4. And lastly, such respect must be had to abatement of Interest, that Trade which (like the Sun) gives at once both life, and lustre, be not totally destroyed thereby; it being most certain that Trade must cease as soon as sure, and speedy borrowing is obstructed, as will be proved in examining the seventh Proposition: and if subduing Interest to four per Cent. do not destroy quick borrowing, there is at present a strange hoarding up of money, when many men on good security, and six per Cent. cannot borrow 2. or 300. l. in two months' time.  
So that, upon the whole matter, 'tis impossible to revive our dying Manufactures, or make the stock, of it cheap, or Market quick, until first we consume more of our own, and less of foreign Manufactures, spend nothing from abroad, whereof we have the like at home, subdue our wages, retrench our excess in diet and apparel, Traffic with the foreigner Ware for Ware, and keep our money at home; as for abatement of Interest (the great Diana of my Discourser) it may do like a chip in Pottage, or operate at best like those vulgar Medicines prescribed by every good womnn for Ague and Toothache; do one man no good, and another much mischief.  
And now waving the main Argument of the lawfulness of Interest, let me ask my Discourser a sober question or two: who shall judge what moderate benefit the borrower may cheerfully afford the Lender? the Lender? that's unequal, Interest may sway him: the Borrower? he's a party also: Besides it may be alleged (as a great man has already done) that the same standard cannot serve indifferently for the Gentleman and Trader, 
Sir. F. Bacon  whereby they may cheerfully afford the like premium: the Gentleman commonly borrows with design to make no great advantage; the Trader has a lucrative calling, shall he pay no more than the Gentleman?  
After all, if my Discourser would have his Neighbour who is sober, and provident (for none else are Lender's, nor all those neither) keep his money constantly by him to accommodate the Gentleman, Merchant, Farmer, Artificer, etc. for the quickening of Trade and Commerce, run hazards as great as an East-India voyage, disserve (it may be) his own occasions, go to Law to recover his own, and oft times lose it, let him by way of gratitude and requital, willingly allow such liberal reward as the Lender, who runs all the risk, may cheerfully afford to pleasure him in his extremity, without any indirect or un-Gentleman-like dealing.   

His fourth Proposition examined and answered.  It will (says he) plentifully relieve our poor, by setting all heads and hands on work in the Countries, for improvement of Land; in the Cities and Towns, by way of Manufacture and Trade. 
ANd in good time, for we are heavily charged with them; but he that reads the two precedent Chapters, will find little hopes to be eased by the ways proposed, or that our Lands shall be upon any great improvements, and the capital stock secured; and as little hopes to have our moneys and fruit of our Lands put forth to Manufactures, whereby our idle hands shall be set on work, as long as over-valuing our labour renders our commodities so much dearer than those of our neighbours, who have been ever careful to prevent increase of wages, knowing thereon only depends the cheap sale of their Manufactures.  
And now, as I cannot but lament, with my worthy Discourser, on the one hand, the inefficacy of some of our Laws concerning the poor, in not preventing, rather than correcting enormities; so on the other hand, I cannot but blame the maladministration of many good Laws we have in this particular: else what means those swarms of lewd and idle persons, who prowl about in every part of the Kingdom? or those gangs of Gipsies that appear amongst us at noonday?  
My Discourser brings in the Beggar, saying, No man has hired him, but ask his neighbour (who is more to be believed) and he will tell you, he always was a lazy and lewd companion, and would not be hired: next he introduceth the Hedge-breakers, and Wood-stealers, alleging, The weather is cold, fuel dear, and they know not how to earn a penny; but the truth is, they are idle, and delight in those sort of practices, and to my knowledge some of them might earn a groat honestly, whilst they are getting two pence by this lewd trade: then comes in the Thief, to whom my Discourser allows the stolen plea of misfortune, which let him talk of, as he pleaseth, we know his greatest misfortune's are his vices, and that he was first a wicked profuse person, and rather than dispose himself to live suitable to his present condition, will venture a hanging. Besides these (who are the vermin of the Commonwealth) we have housed poor, who secretly relying on Parish-maintenance, as their main reserve, are too proud to beg, too lazy to work, when 'tis either too hot or too cold, and will choose their own time and wages, or you may do your work yourself; but if you have any charity to bestow, they are ready to receive it, and will spend it in better bread and tipple than he that gave it, hating to pinch when they have it, and when they have it not; and when sickness comes the Parish is sure to hear of them.  
Were our poor industrious and frugal, and wages reasonable, which, I fear, will never be, until the abused crutch of Statute-maintenance be rescinded, or better regulated, they could not want employment, though Usury were at 8. per Cent. nor fall into extreme poverty, but by abundance of children, long sickness, or the like, in which sense only they are God Almighty's poor; the rest, which are three times the number, are of their own making; whereof I have so many instances amongst my own neighbours, (how well the good husband lives on the same (or worse) trade, which suffers the idle and drunken person to fall into extreme poverty) that I am persuaded few men come into great poverty but by their own idle, irregular, and wicked courses; as either by cramming all immoderately into their bellies, or at once both losing their time, and spending their moneys in Alehouses, gaming, drabbing &c. resolving (as some of them have not stuck to say it) the Parish shall be their Hospital at last; like young Heirs, whose extravagancies are too often fomented by assurance of future estates; and so make an ill use of a well-intended Law; else it were not easy to believe that rational creatures should pull poverty so wilfully on them; as I am sure by woeful experience we in Kent generally find; and particularly my own poor Parish, where, within these thirty five years, merely in regard of idleness trusting to certain relief, we have increased for maintenance of our poor from 6. or 7. l. per annum to above 100 l. The late Royal Aid, which was so great a Tax, charging us yearly but with 89. l. 12. s. 8. d.  
And now who can but admire, that whilst our poor are thus lazy, wasteful, and disorderly, that the Dutch and Walloons, who for just an 100 years have inhabited amongst us, and live under the same Laws, should notwithstanding by some innate virtue, or peculiar rules of their own, preserve themselves in their ancient simplicity, be so remarkably industrious, that to our great benefit (as if God would bless every action of that wise and great Queen Elizabeth, who settled these people amongst us, anno 1569. upon the barbarity of the Duke of Alva in the Netherlands) every Town where they inhabit, as Colchester, Canterbury, Sandwich, Maidstone, Southampton, etc. are by their industry and Manufactures made the trading and thriving places of the Nation, and so regular and frugal in their living, that, as few are poor amongst them, so I think it will be hard to produce one of those people begging at our doors; much less do any of their poor come upon our Parishes for relief, and yet at the same time they do contribute to maintain ours.  
So that upon the whole matter, it is not subduction of Interest that can relieve our poor, but the reduction of them to their former industry, wages, and moderate way of living, that so they may be more cheerfully employed in Town and Country, without turning charity into legal oppression.   

His fifth Proposition examined and answered.  It only can (says he) prevent the fatal destruction of our Timber. 
OUr Fathers could count one, two, and three, and some of them pay 10. per Cent. for money, and had sons and daughters too to provide for, and yet suffered thriving Timber to stand to its full growth, (which is all that can be desired from the wisest and richest men) and thrive themselves by a happy conduct: we, now Usury is at 6. per Cent. pluck up, even our thriving Timber by the roots: was that preservation, and this devastation, in respect of high or low Interest, or from a provident temper in the one, and destructive humour in the other? Had my Discourser duly considered the different practice, he might have made some question (though now he does not) whether many Gentlemen encouraged by small Usury, would either suffer their thriving Timber to stand, or plant new groves for posterity; nor can he well hope, that any thing, but severe Laws, can make half the Nation wise in this particular. Our best Laws for preserving Timber were exhibited, when prodigious plenty, and little use thereof, seemed to defy all future scarcity, so immensely careful were our Ancestors for its preservation: had this wisdom been improved in our Father's days, when, within these 50. or 60. years they began to build in a large manner, and the same been prosecuted by us, by providing new Laws, as well for propagation, as preservation, as our old Laws become scanty in their design, through a general devastation, we might have had some millions of thriving trees more than now we have, and thereby secured our posterity from the danger approaching: Trees are like men, if we have not a young brood, death will soon unpeople a Nation. 'Tis not plucking up, but not planting, that hurts the public, and must end in her destruction, and a spirit of supineness, ill steerage and penury, and not Usury, that hinders such excellent undertake; else I cannot imagine, why our best buildings, our greatest nurseries both for fruit and timber, and generally all our improvements, should have been carried on when money was at 8. or 10. per Cent. or dearer, and yet all run to ruin and destruction now money is at 6. nor can I believe that 4. per Cent. can cure us herein: and therefore to me it seems most absolutely needful, to lay all men under a severe Law for propagating of timber, over and besides our present Laws relating thereunto; a short model whereof I here offer to consideration.  
That every Proprietor, etc. of 25. acres of Land, and so proportionably for a greater or lesser quantity, be obliged to plant, either in one entire piece of ground, or else dispersedly, at the option of the Planter, (his ground being proper for it) once in every five years, 25. young Elm, Ash, Walnut, Chesnut, and Oak especially, as is most agreeable to the soil, of the best and likeliest for timber, and the same preserve, maintain, and supply from time to time, to the intent the number of 25. trees may in every five years be nursed up on every 25. acres of Land; all which numbers shall be preserved until they be at least ten inches diameter, unless in the mean time the top boughs decay, after which the tree never prospers; nor shall the Oak be lopped or shroued at any time.  
And in case the Planter shall think fit at any one time to set Acorns, or Nuts, or plant so many trees as may answer the number to be planted in 10.15. or greater number of years, it shall be accounted a compliance with the Law. With such other farther directions, and provisoes, and under such inspections and penalties as Authority shall think fit.  
That this or the like course being duly observed, would bring mutual benefit to the Commonwealth, and Planter, I refer myself to those, whose ingenuity and public spirits have obliged to planting timber on proper soil: especially I commend the Reader to the worthy John Rodds, Esquire, near Excester, who some 18. years ago sowed 30. acres of Land with Acorns, as a nursery for timber only, and is now (I hope) assured (besides the great content of seeing his labour prosper) that his grandchild may reap from thence some thousands of pounds worth of timber. If this or some such course be not speedily taken, farewell timber, trade, and security after an age or two; a miserable progress wherein we have already made, and that only since Usury has been subdued, which surely could not have been made worse, had money continued at 10. per Cent. which strongly implies Usury not guilty therein.  
I know not how well we are versed in Arithmetic, (though my Discourser concludes our knowledge great therein) but our skill, me thinks, appears very little, to live beyond our estates, run into debt, and then cut down improving timber to pay the reckoning; and which is almost as bad, either neglect, or not be able, to plant more, without borrowing of the Usurer. Can men, either before, or in their extravagancies, ruminate upon the worth of the Capital, as my prudent Discourser does upon the consequence of Interest, or could we practise that reasonable and easy rule in Oeconomy, of cutting our coat according to our cloth, I presume we should soon find ourselves in a more temperate and richer world, than so improvidently (as he alleadges) to strip our estates to the last stick, either to pay debts, or marry our daughters.  
And now admitting it prudence to preserve our Timber, until we had sufficient nurseries of young Trees, I cannot see why we should so dreadfully apprehend the sending to our neighbours, for Timber, now money is at six per Cent. and yet admit (for so my Discourser does) we might fetch it from thence were money at three or four per Cent. and build for most of Christendom, as the Hollander does. Is it sending the principal abroad makes it so dangerous that 'tis a question whether that, or London could best be spared? why that's the same thing, whether we lose the Capital at three or six per Cent. or else my Discourser has spun the third of his argument so fine my purblind reason cannot discern it.  
To conclude, I will ask but one question, whether height of Interest, or our urgent occasions in point of building causeth the destruction of our Timber. I must not believe the augmenting of our Fleets, and Navigation falls in by chance (like the cursed Instruments of Powder and Guns) or that the felling of Timber to pay debts puts us daily upon building, but building puts us upon felling of Timber, so that whether we be in debt or no, or Interest low or high, our occasions must be supplied either at home or from abroad; if from home, down goes Timber though Interest be subdued, if from abroad we must have it what ever it cost.  
So that upon the whole matter, it appears that our disorder, and ill conduct has hurried us into debt, and our debts have at once put us upon felling our thriving Timber, and into an incapacity of planting more; of which distempers it is scarce imaginable, that subduction of Interest will ever cure us, as is alleged; since nothing but our better conduct, and frugality can occasion planting faster than plucking up, and thereby prevent the fatal destruction of our Timber.   

His sixth Proposition examined and answered.  It will pay (saith he) the debts of the whole Gentry, and yet leave them (one with another) better estates than now they have. 
WHat improvident actions (besides the calamities of the late ill times) have contracted great debts upon many of our Gentry, etc. is too apparent for any one to cover with Fig-leaves. The cessation of Hospitality, the ruin of Estates, etc. is not (as is insinuated) primarily to be charged upon encumbrances of Estates (which seldom fall from the sky) but to ill conduct, excess, supineness, and these other practices whereof we may justly be ashamed; to these we truly own our debts, and encumbrances, so much cried out upon, the decay of Hospitality, the eclipse of honour, degenerating our blood, and supplanting many of our noble and ancient Families: and sure I am, nothing more argues a Nation ripe for destruction, than intemperance, corruption of manners, and exorbitancy of expense in all degrees of men: now a receipt (whereof my Discourser speaks) that would cure us, and secure the Nation would be worth getting.  
And no great pains, though Sir Thomas winks and will not see't, but cries out shame to Usury, and six per Cent. He that adjust's his expenses by the right rule of Oeconomy, may maintain a just Hospitality, and bid defiance to the Usurer, and his Broker too; he that slights it, reduce Usury to what you please, shall soon find himself in an uneasy condition.  
Indeed I believe there are many worthy men that know the rule of frugality, and approve; it but custom, emulation, the mode of the times, their own generous easy or careless hearts render it impracticable, and therefore I conceive, my Discourser, who is himself a wise and provident man, ought neither to have furnished Gentlemen with arguments for their mistakes, nor put them into so desperate an opinion of their condition as to insinuate, nay daringly to maintain, that such who have once lessened their Estates, (especially if they have Families) can ever live within compass afterward; whereas the truth is, he that has lessened his Estate must better Husband the remains, according to that sure rule of Seneca, quod cessat reditu, ex frugalitate suppletur, that which becometh defective in our revenue is to be supplied by frugality and thrift, or he may come to beggary at last.  
But it seems to bode ill, that Sir Thomas who for frugality may be to others a Pattern, should yet proclaim to the world he's not in love with thrift, although it be so necessary to our subsistence; yet do I hope no prudent man will be the less in love therewith, (I mean a necessary and just thrift, without which we should have but few solvent men.) Thrift, who can live long and happily without it? its actions are of a true temperature, 'tis the cornerstone that keeps together the whole building; the safe boundary, beyond which are precipieces and confusion; one of Cato's best revenues; a virtue near Allied to liberality, and the head-spring thereof; for none without it can oft be bountiful.  
And for the question my Discourser put in case parsimony were admitted, what shall become of his Majesty's revenue. etc. I refer the Reader to the Preface for answer.  
But that our debts may be paid without this sneaking frugality, hateful to this generous age, Calias sobriety and good conduct, I recommend nothing else) he is sure (〈◊〉 ●st) that reducing Interest will do the feat: a pretty way of encouraging men to run into debt, under pretence of showing a way how to get out again, and not a pin the worse: this is to touch pitch, and not be defiled: the rich secret vein found out by J. C's own sagacity, and more fully discovered by my worthy Friend and Discourser, for the consolation of all such who cannot keep within compass: for, saith he, he is confident, (and confidence you know doth much) he that has 600. l. per annum, and owes 3. or 4000 l. may readily clear himself with the sale of 200. l. per annum, (nothing more sure) and the remaining part, viz. 400. l. per annum, shall in a short time advance to as much in real value and purchase, as the whole would have yielded before; nothing more unlikely. Credat Judaeus appella, non ego: he that believes this, may the next time swallow a Gudgeon.  
If by real value, he means, the improvement of Rent, shall advance from 400. l. to 600. l. per annum, I suppose every man's reason may abundantly satisfy him to the contrary, besides what I have offered in the precedent Chapters: but if by real value, he means an advancement of years in point of purchase, so that 400. l. per annum shall upon subduction of Interest, sell for as much as 600. l. per annum will now yield; I conceive, examples in this kind are the best arguments, and that which holds true at one time, and in one Country, may rationally be supposed to hold true at another time, and in another Country: thus experience may best reform notions, and practice sometimes regulate demonstrations.  
The Hollander then has found no such improvements of Land in purchase, upon falling of Interest; for when money was at 6. or 7. per Cent. (as within these 35. years) Land there yielded 35. or 40. years' purchase; and now Interest being fallen to 3. or 4. per Cent. it sells for little or nothing more: where note, that Land is so dear with them, in regard of their infinite stock of money, smallness of their Country, and miraculous numbers of men, there being scarce six feet square of Land for every inhabitant.  
In France, where money is at 7. per Cent. those Lands te●m'd noble, as giving titles of honour, etc. are worth 34. or 35. years' purchase; and the vulgar or ordinary Lands 25. years' value, the revenue whereof answers but 4. per Cent. the reason of which I shall not now inquire into, more than that Interest of money exceeds the purchase of Land there, as by good reason it should, in recompense of the hazard of lending; and also observe, there is no certain method and proportion kept between Interest of money, and purchase of Land, but that other local and peculiar reasons operate every where, more than the consideration of high or low Interest, otherwise every man might conclude that when money yields so much, Land must needs sell accordingly; which is the great mistake these Gentlemen run upon: for have we ourselves been any more than our neighbours sensible of improvements of Land in purchase, proportionably to the several retrenchments of Usury; which when it was at 10. per Cent. Land was worth (as several discreet and aged persons inform me) 15. or 16. years' purchase: when money was at 8. per Cent. (within which time we were in the greatest prosperity this Nation ever yet enjoyed, Gold being equally plentiful to Silver, and both greatly abounding) Land yielded but 17. or 18. years' purchase, and not frequently 20. unless from the consideration of situation, timber, or some great conveniency; but never did pretend to rise in the least upon the reduction of Interest to 6. per Cent. which by my Discourser's and J. C's rule should have started to 24. or 25. years' purchase: but as we have declined in our prosperity since, and our treasure wasted, and conveyed abroad, to pay the debt made yearly by ●ur unhappy expense of foreign growths and Manufactures, ●ver and besides our native commodities exported, and a succession of Taxes great and heavy, like the waves of the sea, ●nd our Landlords in debt, and many borrowers, and few ●●nders, Land is fallen to 16. or 17. years' purchase, where 'tis ●●kely to continue for aught I see, (though interest were reduced) till we have more money, and fewer borrowers, and ●●ss Land to sell; for if subduing Interest would have done the desired feat, 'tis strange to me, that falling from 10. to 6. per ●ent. which is almost one half, should not appear ere now so visibly, as to stop the mouths of all gainsayers.  
But should I grant that we have received advantage, by bringing Interest from 10. to 8. and again from 8. to 6. per Cent. (which solemnly I cannot apprehended, viis & modis) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 therefore follow th●t reducing it to 3. or 4. will be yet greater, and f●rther advantage to us: this is but ill arguing from one extreme to another, since too much severity in a Law may do much more hurt on the one hand, then good on the other; like an indiscreet Schoolmaster that with immoderate whipping slupesies that boy which otherwise might have been docile enough, or like an unskilful Gardiner, who instead of pruning the Tree, lops off all the fruitful branches; moderate heat makes the sweetest moult; excess commonly does advantage a few, and hurts the generality: a Law is most grateful when it suits with the several Interests, and greatest concerns of the people, seasonable to the time and concurring circumstances; otherwise it will succeed no better then with the Ass in the I able under her several burdens of Salt and Wool, were our ladings and concerns all alike, and had we no body to provide for but the borrowing Gentlemen, the dispute might easily be reconciled; but the lending Gentlemen, the Widows, Orphans, and impotent persons are too great a number not at all to be regarded; And Trade especially, which is the great concern of the Nation, must likewise be secured, which certainly cannot be by lessening Interest to a trifle, in regard the hopes of sure borrowing will be utterly lost; unless we were (as they are in Holland) better provided, that so by the Law of plenty we might be sure always to be readily supplied: Sir F. Bacon conceived, and rightly, that the Usurer would sooner descend from ten to eight in the hundred then give over his Trade, and go from certain gain to gains of hazard; for, says he, where the abatement is but small (and the reward tolerable) it will no whit discourage the Lender; which is a full concession, that where the abatement is great, and the reward mean (at four per Cent.) it will altogether destroy borrowing. Three or four per Cent. will certainly do as much hurt as peradventure some imagine six or eight has done good, or ten per Cent. mischief; for as at ten few would borrow, but upon sure and urgent occasions (and yet so far I believe it did good, by keeping some sort of men in awe) so none will lend at three or four but upon some other special consideration, whereby all Commerce must necessarily decay, and Trade (to the infinite loss of the Nation) engrossed by a few who have prodigious sums at command, to the excluding of all small-stocked Traders, and young beginners with little money t thus Trade would slyly and cunningly be betrayed into the hands of a few, by a fawning salutation and a kiss: this is so to order matters, that craft might suck the breasts of industry with a witness; and draw more milk from thence in one day, than a Son of idleness gets thence in seven years; like an old Cat, which laps more milk then half a dozen young kits.  
'Tis a pretty and almost contradictory observation of my Discourser in his Preface, that the Junto at Westminster, anno 1652. did at once reduce Interest from eight to six per Cent. with intent (saith he) which I do not allow for granted, to bring it yet lower, and yet designed no good to the Landlord thereby: it seems (even by his own confession) they conceived reducing Usury to three or four per Cent. would not double, much less triple the real value, and purchase of Land, for if they had I verily believe they would never have done it; since it had, been enough to have restored the ruin'd Fortunes of our Nobles and Gentry, which, as things than stood, I suppose that power had reason to have suppressed; and nursed up a new Brood.  
But I am about to believe the matter is not much, whether I and rise or no, or Trade be engrossed by a few; if Interest down (which was, is, and ever will be grievous to needless borrowers) we that pay a 100 and 20. per annum to the Usurer, shall then be sure to pay for the same principal, but 60. or at most 80. l. per annum, and that's gain enough, considering how easily we shall obtain it; and if we keep our Lands, the Rents will answer more than Interest and Taxes too: thus might we sleep as sweetly in debt as on Bed of Down: This is in truth one of the main things in Prospect and hidden vein, not so much found out as managed by admirable Sagacity as well by the crafty as by the borrowing men, under the title (I love them so well, I am sorry the project will not answer the expression) of the greatest blessing to King, and Kingdom.  
And now, perceiving my Discourser is for selling, and being out of debt, I must acknowledge it the best Proposition in his Book, and not run hazards by Tenants, pay Taxes of all sorts for what is really none of his, and be a sort of Bayly to the savage Usurer; for if Interest were at four per Cent. a Gentleman that should lie long, and greatly in debt, should scarcely thrive either in Estate or credit: And let me presume to give him this advice: (because I both honour and pity all worthy persons, whose generosity, good nature, or misfortunes have cast behind hand) that when he is once out of debt, he strive by all possible means to live within compass of whatsoever remains, (let my Discourser say what he please to the contrary) lest a worse thing happen unto him; whilst in the mean time six per Cent. or three per Cent. or any body else, who lives regularly, and within his tether, shall in conclusion appear to be the wiseman.  
So that, upon the whole matter, nothing can pay the debts of our Gentry, but timely sales and better conduct; which infallibly shall without the severity of a Law invest their next heirs into better estates than now they have: And for our Lands, if we would have a greater value put upon them in point of purchase, the only way is to keep out of debt; that so a farm may not be purchasable in twelve months' time, and then not out of necessity, but at the Option of the Vendor; for nothing is more true than that the scarcity of a good commodity puts an estimation and price upon it, which, by the rule of contraries, is the main reason our Lands are at this day so undervalved.   

His seventh Proposition examined and answered.  It will make Moneys (says he) so easy to be borrowed, that even the Lender must shortly pay the Broker and Conveyancer. 

1. By diminishing the number of Borrowers.  
2. By clearing the encumbrances of Borrowers.  
3. By enlarging the security of Borrowers.   
IN the fourth Chapter it was alleged, subduing Interest would set all heads and hands a-work upon improvements, Trade, etc. and in this, he supposeth there will be few Lender's at the rate proposed: how moneys now will be so easy to be borrowed that even the Lender (contrary to the custom of all Contracts, wherein the Hirer and purchaser bears all charges) shall pay the Broker and Conveyancer, will be worth the knowledge of such who delight even in the most abstruse speculations.  
Why, if you will please to believe my Discourser, subduing Usury ('tis even pity it were not reduced to a Welch-man's button, rather than hinder so many good things) shall so increase our Trade, that in spite of the world we shall so under-sell our Neighbours, that all mankind shall buy of us, and we will vent more than bring back to consume, and the balance of our Trade shall be answered by the importation of Bullion, and then we shall tumble in money; which I confess I hearty wish to see.  
This Trade (says he) must needs make our Lands highly improve both in annual profits and purchase. Borrowers (saith he) will be few, either no man (say I) will be so mad as to lend at that premium, or we shall be so rich, wise, and industrious, no man I warrant you will be so vain as run into debt, live beyond his bounds, drink, drab, or dice. Exigents (saith he) will be fewer; we shall so guide our affairs (say I) that we need not to fear surprises, our conduct hitherto hath been so remarkable. Debtors (saith he) will pay all they own, Mortgages, Statutes (with all their cursed gang) shall be cancelled; though debtors, it may be (say I) are not worth half they owe. Debtors (saith he) shall no more cousin their Creditors; the world will no doubt (say I) grow honest, when the premium is so reasonable, 'tis pity to deceive the Usurer: And who can tell, but high Interest, which is no better than Injustice and oppression (as my Discourser hath it) though the Law tolerate it, be the secret reason why so many debtors defeat their creditors, since to deceive the unjust and injurious is no deceit, or may at worst pass for a Doctrine of probability.  
A golden age no doubt: pray God these goodly promises prove not like Mountebanks Bills. Had my Discourser been of Counsel against eight per Cent. no doubt but we should have had all these fair advantages promised upon reducing Interest unto six per Cent. and yet who can justly maintain we received any, except those who were at that time actually in debt.  
Land it did not improve, either in rent or purchase; as has been already showed; Manufactures it did not revive or advance, but they have certainly decayed since; and Trade (I mean a right stated Trade) it hath not quickened, for that was more vigorous thirty years ago then now.  
Much less has subduing Interest prevented our Gentry from running into debt, but rather encouraged them to be bold therein; since the sharp tooth of Usury has been filled out.  
The fear of a loath some disease rather than virtue, may deter some men from vicious practices: I dare avow that since Interest became so tame, we have two Gentlemen now in debt, for one that was before; many of whom have borrowed and squandered away the principal, judging six per Cent. could do them no great hurt; and 'tis this number of borrowers, and no other reason else, which has prepared the matter in England for an abatement of Interest, J. C. would have us wink and fancy something else; but tell us he will not: Interest at eight and ten per Cent. was a formidable beast, and none durst play with it; few than lay soaking deeply in debt, unless the Trader who made greater profit, or the thriving purchaser, to answer the later part of a payment.  
And now admitting Usury reduced (as God forbidden but it should, would it produce the promised felicities; and God forbidden that it should, if it be only to repair the errors of other men) in which sense it can never be welcome to our men of honour though in debt) since it is only to rob Peter to pay Paul, and as bad as stealing Sheep, and giving the Trotters to the poor for Gods-sake, (as the Spaniards speak) will it therefore follow that most men will be desirous to borrow, be it to squander, Trade, or improve; and will it therefore be that because many will desire to borrow, and few inalyned to lend (as my Discourser himself supposeth) but almost all will be employing their own money upon some laudable improvement, that money will be so easily borrowed as is alleged.  
Sir Francis Bacon saith, [in his Essays,] it is a vanity to conceive that there would be borrowing without profit, that is a proportionable reward for the disservice the Lender oft times gives himself, and hazard he runs. It is impossible to conceive (says the same great man, whom all the world knows was no Usurer) the number of inconveniences that will ensue, if borrowing were cramped (which if it would not be at three or four per Cent. cut off its legs the next bout) there must be therefore, says he, encouragement proposed that moneyed men may be invited to lend to the Merchant, Farmer, etc. for the continuing, and quickening of Trade and industry. Now my Discourser (far different from this great Oracle of reason) argues, as if he meant to hus the Usurer out of his Interest; the Usurer says, rather than venture at three or four per Cent. he will keep his money, and once in a year get more by lurching, (for that will be the Trade I dare prophecy, when sure borrowing is ham-stringed) my Discourser tells him 'tis a Bugbear, and scarecrow, and that he fears it not, and that he will lend and pay the Broker and Conveyancer too; (else the next time I can tell him; he is like to have the sin of Onan laid to his charge) and if he be not so contented, my Discourser hopes he may in time come to lend (even the rich) in pure charity, and thus Hector's the poor man out of his Interest, as the borrower too often defrauds him of his principle.  
Again, Interest thus lessened, I believe few will sit down so contented, having been used to greater profit, but will rush upon several projects and undertake, which for want of due skill to manage may probably redowned to the equal hurt both of themselves and Commonwealth; whilst in the mean time it may be justly feared experienced men in Trade and Tillage may miscarry in their well-stated affairs for want of money, which before such abatement they might liberally have taken up at a days warning; for as the great Sir Francis Bacon (in his Essays) wisely observes, were it not for this (sure and) easy way, borrowing upon Interest (which then was ten per Cent.) men's necessities would draw upon them a most sudden undoing, in that they would be forced to sell their means (be it Land or Goods) far underfoot; the greatest part of Trade being driven by young men with hired money, and so whereas Usury doth but gnaw upon them (and that but gently now at six per Cent.) bad Markets would swallow them up; judging it better to give 5. l. for the loan of 100 l. for six months, and stay the season for the best Markets, then sell their concerns at twenty per Cent. loss to these Lurchers that will lie at catch to take such advantages, (this is to such the breasts of industry till blood come) which will certainly appear more visible than than now, if you put a general stop and dryness upon borrowing; to avoyed which I am sure my Merchant, Farmer, or Artificer, will with all his heart give after the rate of six per Cent. for three or six months, and pay both Broker and Conveyancer too, what ever my Discourser can allege to the contrary.  
And now I will present the, Reader with an Objection made by my Discourser, and his courteous answer thereunto.  
Object. But what will become of Widows, Orphans, and other impotent person (and I may add younger Brothers and Sisters brought up to nothing, who are a vast number in the Nation, who want judgement, or faculty to Trade or purchase.  
His answer is, There are likewise Widows, etc. that have Lands, who betwixt the fall and loss of Rent, and deduction of Taxes do now suffer more (I fear) in proportion (what then sinking one third of the Interest of moneyed Widows, etc.) and yet who ever dreamt of providing for them: and thus are they answered with a short and comfortless question. But pray whose fault was it that those poor Landed Widows, etc. were no more considered.  
If this (says he) be not an answer to their importunities, supposing they might be earnest for their bread) they, meaning the moneyed Widows, etc. must know, that it is fair for them if they be not oppressed: which I perceive by his Doctrine can scarcely be until they are defeated of their principal, reducing Interest to three or four per Cent. might have a lively resemblance of it, especially when more are likely to receive evil then good thereby.  
Yea, but the Widow, etc. who would not willingly be oppressed, should not (save● my Discourser) think of oppressing others, which they certainly do, by exacting more profit for the use of money than either Land or Trade will regularly bear; or as J.C. saith, in capital letters, (thinking to have riveted the Argument) idleness should not suck the breasts of industry.  
Truly I believe oppression a great and crying sin, which the just Judge will one day severely punish; and that there are a great many sorts of oppressions; amongst the rest, this ●s one, that whilst I endeavour to make my own burden as ●ight as possibly I can, I care not who is sunk with the weight of it, so I can pretend any excuse, or cry up for the Commonwealth, with the like sincerity as the Silversmiths did for Diana; otherwise I see not why present Interest (which with us is the lowest by Law in Europe) should be called oppression, or a burden greater than Land or Trade will regularly bear, unless it be because one sort of (many) borrowers say so; which if that be a sufficient proof, I would then ask my Discourser, if either he, or any other Landlord, will sink his Rent, merely because his Tenants complain of hard pennyworths.  
That Trade will regularly bear present Usury, who has not observed that the careful managers thereof have had a thriving time of it, (witness the prodigious riches of London) until the unlucky Dutch War, the dreadful conflagration of our Mother-City, and the pernicious money-trade into foreign parts, whereby I verily believe, we have been, and shall be (if not prevented by raising our Coin, or by the honest Clippers thereof) more impoverished than by the other two: nor does our Traders yet employ their industry without very competent gains, as may be conjectured from their plentiful way of living; nor did our Farmer's sow in fear, or reap in sorrow, until dear Rents, excessive Wages, heavy Taxes, and very bad Markets, did all confederate to swallow them up.  
And for the Land, which of the owners thereof owes 100▪ l. for which he pays 6. per annum, but may readily pay it by the sale of 6. l. per annum Land, and have something over besides; and if so, I am then to seek where the burden and irregularity lies, though my Discourser please himself by maintaining the contrary: besides, I would rather have 5. l. 5. s. 1▪ year in Land once surely settled, whereby I should only venture my Rent, which is commonly secured by a stock on the ground, than 100 l. in money at 6. per Cent. sometimes tumbled and tossed at Usury, like a Ship in a tempest, and utterly lost, and sometimes remain useless by me like a vessel becalmed, whilst the Landlord seldom runs the least hazard, especially in respect of the Capital; and gain is always expected and allowed, proportionable to the Risque and greatness of the adventure; which by the arts and iniquity of this depraved age, is so considerable, that with due reverence to Solomon the wise, I may invert his own words, and affirm, that lender's now are servants to the borrowers, and commonly are right hearty glad when they have recovered their own again.  
After all, if such who complain most of high Interest, and who (God knows) have the least reason to be in the Usurer's Books, would put on a comely thrift, and avoid borrowing, (for these set up half the Usurers, as well as Taverns in the Nation) my Usurer would soon either lend his money on lower terms without a Law, to such who have laudable occasions for it, or else employ it himself to his own and the Commonwealths advantage, which is all can be reasonably desired from him.  
As for idleness sucking the breasts of industry, (as J.C. hath it) 'tis not more applicable to lending money upon a valuable consideration, to them who by industry and skill live thereon, (why others should borrow any great sums, I apprehend not, and wish we had a Law to prevent it, whereby men might at once be kept within compass, a thousand mischiefs prevented, and Traders supplied with money enough) than to my Landlords hiring his Farm to the laborious Husbandman, or to my building and hiring a Ship at a dear rate, to those who occupy their business amidst the terrors of the deep, who cannot raise a penny to pay his Rent without great toil and care, whilst the Landlord lies on the bed of idleness, sucks the breast of industry, and goes away with all the profit; and yet who knows not, that it would turn to the infinite prejudice of the Nation, should all the Landlords in England manage their several Farms by their own servants: On the other hand, I conceive it is neither honest nor safe, that one, called a child of industry, should suck the breasts of idleness, without giving the nurse reasonable satisfaction, lest peradventure the next child that wants, starves in the street.  
Here I will answer a more material Objection than any I have yet seen in Print, made me by a Gentleman-borrower, yet no friend to subduing Usury, and wonders that any man will lend but upon a good pawn 100 l. for 6. l. premium, considering the vast sums that are daily lost.  
Object. May not a man use his own money, and make 6. per Cent. of it, better than he that borrows can first make 6. l. to pay Interest, and then get something over and besides for a livelihood; and so end all disputes about Interest.  
Answ. 1. This were very true, admitting all men were of squall brains and education, to traffic in one sort or other, ●hich is not reasonable to imagine.  
2. If every man employed his own stock, it would be impossible for poor ingenious beginners to borrow, to enter up●n trade; and how many of those people by help of borrowing, become in time excellent members in the Commonwealth, is daily seen.  
3. 'Tis much better for the public that experienced Tra●ers hire money, and employ it, than sit still, whilst commerce merce is managed by the unskilful; which caused his Majesty to complain in the preamble of his Proclamation some two years ago, concerning the Canary Merchants, alleging th●●● unexperienced men had spoiled that trade.  
4. In all Trades there is a great mystery, which is not fully apprehended by two in three, educated therein, how th●● shall we suppose this secret should be found out by then who are forced upon trade, not by their proper genius, but by subduing Usury.  
Lastly, There is that vast difference in skill and conduct amongst men, that one will easier make 14. per Cent. in traffic, than another raise 6.   

His eighth Proposition examined and answered.  It only can (says he) rebuild London profitably as to the Builder, speedily as to the Public. 
I Hope, 'tis an incling (and not Prophetic saying) invented at first by such who wish the work may not prosper, that the rebuilding of London will undo more than the burning thereof has: for if serene times succeed, I doubt not but the Builders (or at least their posterity) will be so fully recompensed as well by profit as conveniency, security and beauty, that by a happy Omen, I hope I may invert the jyngle by asserting, that in conclusion there may be more gainers by rebuilding of London, then there were losers by burning of it.  
The present Interest of money (admitting much were borrowed) can be no just scarecrow to the Builders, since all Builders I have yet conversed with (being of that number myself) may have eight, nine or ten per Cent. and very good Rents for their grounds besides.  
As for those who are to build in the worst, and by-places, they are to build the meanest Houses, and so what they fall short in Rent will be saved in Building: besides 'tis not to be doubted but materials, and workmen may be much cheaper when the capital parts of the City are rebuilt, to the great encouragement of Builders in by-places, which are likely to be last built.  
And should I grant that all the new Buildings were carried on by borrowed money, I could not deny but Interest at four per Cent. were best for the Builder, in case he could speedily borrow at that rate, without severe brokage or shifts of Interest; but he that employs his own money matters not much whether it be at six or four, in regard he knows the work must be done, and he shall find benefit and content thereby.  
Yet will not, subduing Interest, hasten the work, but most assuredly hinder, as some have confessed to me; for what ever Builder wants money (as I protest I am one) shall lose a Summer before he knows where to borrow it without some underhand dealing; he shall find it to his cost a contradiction, that many Lender's and low Interest, live together in a declining Commonwealth.  
So that upon the whole matter it is certain, and speedy borrowing without unconscionable brokage (which will infallibly attend reduction of Interest) that must rebuild London profitably to the Builder, and speedily as to the Public.  
And now for the credit of six per Cent. I will appeal to all the world, if the rebuilding of London goes not on much faster than could be reasonably imagined by him that shall consider the many discouragements the Builders have laboured under as fears of enemies abroad, doubt at home, wars, and rumours of wars; fears and jealousies, true or false, at present operate a like, scarcity of materials, dearness of Workmen▪ peevishness of Neighbours; grounds and concerns intermixing differences between Landlords and Tenants, and the like; many whereof being overcome by the prudence of his Majesty, and infinite pains and wisdom of the reverend Judges, the work now goes so happily on, that by the blessing of the Lord I doubt not to see that City within three or four years, the joy of her Friends, the envy of her enemies, and the beauty of Christendom.   

The ninth Proposition examined and answered.  It will inviolably establish (says he) the Crown of England. 

1. By advancement of all his Majesty's Revenues.  
2. By the welfare of all his Majesty's Subject.  
3. By making Land (which is in safe hands) the over balancing Scale of Wealth and Power:   
AS wise Generals, in the day of Battle, keep their best Soldiers as a Reserve against the time of greatest need, so my Discourser, after he has said what wit or skill, or passion can suggest, insinuates at last that lubduing Interest will establish the Crown upon his Majesty's Royal House, by raising his Revenues to such a degree, that it may be no ways doubted, but that his Incomes may far exceed his expenses, whereby burdens by Taxes on Lands or Persons, may cease, and with them our discontents exspire. A happy age. Welcome low Interest, more powerful than Militia, or standing Armies: Hail thou only inricher of King and People, Expeller of Sedition, and establisher of Sacred Majesty. And now after all this Pageantry, what pity it is I must conclude that having examined, and found how little likelihood there is, that subduing Interest will increase the fruit and revenue of the Kingdom, we have small reason to hope it will augment the Revenue of the King: And therefore if we cannot raise his Majesty's Incomes above his Exits, let us all humbly beg of God and the King, that his exits may not exceed his Incomes, and that's the same thing; since every man is rich or poor, by what he expends, and not by what he receives.  
Having provided for the Crown, he turns himself to the three great Faculties (as he calls them;) Divines, Lawyers, and Physicians, to convince them how great advantage will accrue to their professions by reducing Usury: but because I know they are too wise to be led by an ignis fatuus, I shall leave the whole matter to their examination: and shall (without enlarging on that very odd, undue and dividing expressions of Land being in safe hands, (as if all the world but Landed men were dangerous Creatures) only observe his angry conclusion, in case Usury be not taught to dance after his pipe, Gaolers and Catchpoles walk Horses, and some weight taken out of their scale, that their Interest no longer preponderate, our servitude (saith he) must be (forsooth) almost accomplished; the meaning whereof I cannot conceive, unless besides subduing Usury, he would have tallies cut gratis between Debtors and Creditors, or at least some notable defalcation made in the usual and necessary proceed against unwilling and dishonest men: for otherwise can he without pain hearty believe that the mere reducing Usury to two per Cent. will prevent the frequent use of those sour Instruments of the Law; or that men will be therefore wiser, soberer, or juster, since very few (let him say what he pleaseth) fall into those men's clutches, but merely through want of sobriety, industry, conduct, or honesty: but I perceive preoccupied men may say any thing, and venture to impose upon their Readers, in hopes to make impressions in some, according to their own fancies.  
And for the Usurer, I hope he is not so savage as to desire the hurt of any man, much less the Nation, especially when things are offered so much (as is pretended) for his benefit; viz. to buy Land at twenty years' purchase (nay I will help him for eighteen;) which Land, says my Discourser, he may probably improve in Rent, but certainly in some times (ad Graecas Calendas) if he please sell again for thirty, nay forty years purchase rather than fail: why how now Wretch, canst thou desire more then to have thy Revenue kept up in meal or malt: 1800. l. will now buy 100 l. per annum: this new purchase will certainly improve to 130. l. per annum, especially when once our yearly fruit and product becomes double; and than if thou must needs turn savage Usurer again, and will sell, assure thyself (thou hast two good men's words for it, and the World for witness) it will yield thee thirty years' purchase, which is 3900. l. which at three per Cent. (because I will not deceive thee, we will cast upon the lowest Usury) will bring thee in 117. l. per annum, which is 9 l. more than thy first 1800. l. did at six per Cent. and for thy comfort I will be thy Bondsman (which is more than any man will, in good earnest be for our new project) 〈◊〉 Gallants will be mad for money, borrow faster then 〈…〉 to lend, were't thou richer than Sutton or old Audley; ●o sharp a Spurr will cheap Usury be to make men run into debt and excess together.  
The Usurer knows not what to say to this computation; he shakes the he●d, and fears a snake in the Flowers; I see where the shoe wrings him; he's jealous the speculation will not hold, like most projects, appear in the Study rational enough, ●ut fail in the practice: abate his Interest he's sure, he loseth so much; and then, if neither improvements of Rent or purchase follow, nor advancement of Trade nor Manufactures, where is he and the Nation then? he justly suspects it an kn●ck merely to lessen Usury for the ease, and conveniency of some body, and ●o crea●e a new Trade (or rather to enlarge the old) for Lurchers and Scriveners, under the fine name of public good; which he is so sincerely desirous of, that upon any reasonable evidence, warranted by the judgement of un-interested men, the great things promised may take effect, he will, I hope, readily lay aside his present conce ns and fears, and with heart and hand promote the common good: for who is he that would, if he could (in the words of my Discourser) (except these honest men, compared with whom, Clippers are Saints, that send abroad five or six hundred thousand pounds per annum for wine and trifles) maintain his own wretched way of thriving by his neighbour's hurt, and Country's ruin.  
The little good subduing Interest will bring to the Nation has been already examined; it now remains briefly to sum up a few of the many mischiefs that will ensue upon it; some whereof having made use of in the precedent Discourse, I have collected, and he●e insert to help the Readers memory.  
1. It will draw the Treasure of the Nation into a few hands, (than which nothing can be more pernicious) and occasion the hoarding up the same, to the infinite decay of Trade, and impoverishment of the Kingdom; for money locked up in the Miser's Coffers is like dung in a heap, it does no good, but being dispersed, and orderly disposed abroad, inricheth the Land.  
2. It will make money very scarce to be borrowed, so that the Traders will be to seek for supplies upon all occasions, which will put a general imbargo upon all commerce, and necessitate men, especially the active young men with small stocks, (who are the best Merchants) to sell their goods at great loss, because they cannot stay for their best markets, whilst in the mean time all Trade and Commodities would be engrossed by a few rich men, (worse than which nothing can befall a Commonwealth) and more than which nothing can be the wretched aim of some body; and this scarcity of borrowing my Discourser himself does suppose in his seventh Proposition.  
3. It will expose, both at the present and in the future, an infinite number of Widows, Orphans, and other impotent persons▪ to great want and extremity, who ought more to be considered, (methinks) than by telling them (as my Discourser does) there are others (great joy no doubt) who suffer as well as they.  
4. It will encourage our Gentry to run into debt, by making most of them bolder in borrowing (if any one will lend) and being perpetually in the Usurer's Books, to the wounding of their reputations as well as estates, there being, 'tis conceived, six times more Gentry now deeply in debt, than when money was at 8. or 10. per Cent. encouraged thereunto merely by low Interest, imagining so small a thing could never hurt; whereas in truth, 'tis not Usury, but misusing the Capital that brings destruction; like wine which hurts the immoderate only.  
5. It will oblige the Nobility and Gentry to provide greater portions for their younger children, (to their more certain and greater damage, than subduing Usury can otherwise possibly ever do them good;) for, if when money was at 10. per Cent. 600. was a portion equivalent to 750. l. at 8. per Cent. and 750 l. as valuable as 1000 l. now money is at 6. per Cent. I cannot imagine, but that upon reducing it to 3. or 4. per Cent. the portion must be so augmented, that the yearly income may answer the Interest of 1000 l. at 6. per Cent. for every man of quality raiseth such portions for his children, if possibly he can, that whether they marry or no, they may live as his children by the Revenue thereof. Now if it be answered, that parents in this case may leave portions in Land, or Rent-charges, in stead of money, it will be replied, a thousand inconveniencies will ensue thereupon, as well to parents, in cantonizing, or encumbering estates, as to children, in matching or living remote from their maintenance, and nothing so grateful, except some contiguous estate, as ready money. Nor can these portions in land be practised amongst half the Nation.  
6. It will introduce a thousand tricks amongst the rank Usurers, Brokers, and Scriveners, whereby the hasty borrower shall be indirectly wormed out of more money than when Interest was at 8. per Cent. for the harder money is to be procured in respect of low Interest, the more shall, at least by the broker, be extorted underhand from the borrower; so that had I money, and a right broker's principle, I should not care a straw how Usury by Law were mortified; and this (to omit ten thousand instances daily practised, I fear, amongst ourselves now money is scarce) was clearly seen, when in Edward the sixth his days, either out of a rigid zeal, new fangledness, or some temporary, or State-reason, now unknown to us, all manner of Usury and increase of money was quite taken away, it made the matter far worse; as may appear by the preamble of the Statute made in the 13th of Elizabeth, for repealing the foresaid Statute, and allowing Usury at 10. per Cent. wherein 'tis confessed, that the foresaid Law did not do so much good as was hoped it would, but rather the said vice of Usury, and especially by way of sale of wares, and shifts of Interest, (devices which unconscionable lender's and broker's than did, still do, and ever will practise, the lower Interest is reduced) hath much more exceedingly abounded: Now to me it seems in effect the same thing, to annihilate Usury quite, (which I dare swear the rank Usurer, Lurcher, and Broker, would keep Holiday to see) as so to mortify it, that men may not on reasonable security speedily borrow at the allowed rate, without some undue treatment, whereby necessitous men shall be sure to be devoured by Hawk or Buzzard, both birds of prey; whilst in the mean time the worthy and conscientious lender should be next undone. And upon this account, and that of surprising necessitous traders, was this worshipful brat of low Interest, with wonderful sagacity, begot in the crafty noddle of a great moneyed man, who in time, as things shall fadge, may make a Lurcher, and a tenderhearted Scrivener, without whose warm influence the towardly babe (saith my Author) might probably have proved an aborrive. If the conjunction of such kind-natured Planets portend good to mankind, I will henceforth never regard Astrology; and when I see such creatures employ their brains for the real ease and benefit of honest borrowers, I will believe my Geese secure when the Fox preacheth against theft: In the mean time, if my worthy Discourser has made himself a party in the intrigue, I must judge it on some other convenient design, by remembering what himself ingeniously confesseth, that being his father's Executor, he was under an obligation to revenge his quarrel on the Usurer.  
7. It will cause the Dutch to withdraw their money from us, to the great stop of trade, to which, although it has been already answered by J. C. and others, it were better he without their money, and that we only feed lean Kine for their advantage, yet sure our benefit is also great thereby; for having a stock of theirs, without which our trade could not be carried vigorously on, what hurt may it be to us, (nay rather what benefit is it not?) if we paying them 6. per Cent. gain 15. more ourselves, which without their money we could not do: but peradventure the true quarrel to this Dutch money is, that it keeps our weaker Merchants out of the paws of unconscionable Lurchrs.  
8. It only can retard the building of London, for whilst the owners of ground within the City want money to build, and can neither quickly borrow at the intended rate, nor willingly sell their concerns on reasonable terms to such as have money, the carrying on of that work must needs be hindered.  
9 And lastly, It will expose the Gentry who shall be in debt, at the passing such a Law, to many and great exigents, before they shall get clear of their (reditors; it being ten to one the debtors estates will become so many sacrifices, ere any man will be found to come in to their rescue, though Chancery, or the intended Act should allow them a considerable time for redemption: So that I dare affirm, this Nation yet never saw such Seizures, Arrests, Extents, Executions, etc. as will infallibly follow upon passing such a Law; which mischiefs neither were, nor could be so great and inevitable, whilst Interest continued at any tolerable rate; for then, if one man called in his money, another was as ready to lend on the same security, whereby all sides were accommodated, which upon reducing Interest to a trifle, will abundantly fail; unless the number of lender's did fare surmount the number of borrowers; in which case, the sullen fit in some could not prevent the compliance of others; but this felicity is far from the present condition of England; so that, as it is apparent, on the one hand, the debtors will lose their hopes of borrowing, to get clear of their present Creditors, so on the other hand, they have little reason to believe their Lands will yield a penny more than it would have done before such retrenchment, there being now much more Land to be sold for payment of debts, (the plenty of a commodity must needs make it cheap) than there is money in the Nation to purchase it, or redeem it out of the hands of the present mortgagers: and when a Gentleman (deprived of all apparent means of borrowing) is left in the hand of a severe Creditor, his condition is like to be sad enough, be it only (now) by way of retaliation.    

AN Appendix.  
UPon finishing my Task, a worthy Friend gave me a small Book without perfect beginning or enduing, Printed Anno 1622. the title and Author's name being worn out; however I find the design of the Treatise is to show the causes of the want of money, decay of Trade, and remedies for restoring the same, which agreeing so much with what I have ventured to offer to the World, I could not forbear to give the Reader a taste of it, that so truth might be confirmed by two witnesses, with this addition, that what he then complained of, we now have much more cause,  
The immediate reasons of the want of money in England (says this worthy Author) are either such as hinder the importation, or such as cause the exportation thereof; and both these are occasioned by the undervaluation of his Majesty's coin to that of our Neighbour Countries: for who will procure Licence in Spain to bring Reals into England to sell them here at ten per Cent. gain, which is less than the Exchange from thence will yield, when he may have for the same twenty five in the hundred gain in Holland: Here five Reals of eight, which make twenty shillings Sterling, will commonly yield twenty two shill. or there abouts; and the same in Holland will yield 42. s. 6. d. Fleminsh, which is twenty five shill. Sterling (and about fifteen per Cent. more than they yield here.)  
And how can we choose but want money in England (saith my Author) when Jacobus pieces are current at so high a rate in Holland (to which I may add, at most times, in France, Flanders, etc. for there they go at twelve gilders eight stivers the piece, which is 24. s. 9 d. sterling: and after this rate his Majesties other coins of gold and silver are there of respective value. Where note that King James, in the eleventh year of his Reign, (which was nine years before this Treatise was published) raised the prices of all his gold, for the better keeping it within the Realm; ordaining the piece of gold called the Unity, which then went for 20. s. to be thenceforth current at 22. s. and all other pieces of gold to rise in value accordingly; and yet this did not do the work but at that the present; so that we must from time to time raise our Coin, as we find it current abroad; and make foreign money as valuable with us as it is in other Countries, otherwise it will be impossible either to keep our own at home, or draw foreign money hither; and what honest Interest can be hurt by the doing thereof.  
But I proceed with my unknown Author, who says that although by the Proclamations of those parts, the Jacobus pieces, and other Species of Gold and Silver are there set at indifferent rates answerable to their valuation here with us respectively, which they call Permissie-gelt, Placcaet or Proclamation money; yet have they other devices to raise money, and draw it away at their pleasure; as either by their Banks, when the Bankiers will for their occasions give a greater price for money then the Proclamation suffereth, and then 'tis called Bank-gelt, or else by slack pay Masters, that for their own advantage in the raising of Money will pretend not to make present payment of their debts, unless you take their money at a higher rate then either the Proclamation money, or Bank money; which being paid and received, produceth a third kind, which they call Current-gelt, and so by connivance of the Magistrates (who may be did so themselves, or found advantage to the Public) the same goeth from man to man, and at last becometh current at an excessive value; and all these devices for the raising of money in their Country, are merely to draw dry the current of his Majesty's coin.  
And thus (saith this judicious Author) the Hepatitis of this great body of ours being opened, 
A stone like the Liver.  and such profusions of our life-blood let out; and the Liver and Fountain obstructed, and weakened, which should secure the same, needs must this great Body languish, and at last fall into a Marasmum. 
Hectic Fever.   
I am not ignorant that there hath been great abuse in culling his Majesty's Coin here at home (this is practised at this day, and ever will, till money be coined lighter, notwithstanding our having good Laws to the contrary) and in melting the heavy money into Plate: And that there is a great superfluity of Plate, generally, in private men's Houses more than is necessary, and far beyond any example of former times, which must needs also cause scarcity of money: yet on the other hand I cannot deny, but that it is better to have the same in Plate as a Treasure of the Kingdom, then turned into Coin, and so turned out of the Kingdom by the undervalue thereof.  
And here I cannot but take notice of an opinion I have lately heard stiffly maintained even by wise and worthy men (hoping now they are better informed) affirming that liberty of exporting money out of this Nation would be of great advantage to us; for as the case is now (say they) money is in Prison, and be sure the Merchant, Native, or Forrainer will not import it, because he may not at his pleasure export the same, when once 'tis melted into English money; and alleges that the liberty of exporting, as well as importing, is one great means of making the Dutch rich.  
To which I answer, that the liberty which the Hollander gives of exporting their money is a thing rather of name then use, and looks like giving a man leave to hang himself, he'll hardly thank you for it, since they are so vigilant to raise their coin to so high a value above their Neighbours, that no man shall find advantage by carrying it from them: And for the foreign money which comes amongst them, the arts and contrivances of them are so successful in this kind, that no foreigner, who values his money lower than they, gets it home again but to his loss, and the advantage of those people: For example, if an English Guinee valued here at 21. s. 9 d. gets abroad, and be valued at 23. s. this piece (if in the mean time it escapes melting) seldom comes back to the benefit of the Importor, and returns into its own Country as unwillingly as a man who is in great esteem abroad, does, who is sure to be less valued at home: so that if we will imitate the Dutch in permitting the exportation of Coin, let us withal be sure to imitate them in their other contrivances, and value it so high as may encourage it to return again, otherwise it will be like a Fox broke lose, and will hardly be recovered.  
And for foreign money, 'tis not to be imagined that Merchants will ever be invited to bring much hither, where they know it goes for less than in the Country where they receive it, and must needs be losers by the importation; as we sometimes see in French Gold, which sells for less here then in France, and therefore we have little thereof brought in, but for travelling charges, whilst mighty sums of ours have been conveyed thither for profit: And to this purpose I have a notable instance of Portugal money, which some seventeen or eighteen years ago, viz: about Anno 1651. I knew to be imported hither in good sums by Plymouth-Merchants for want of better returns (where note that all Portugal Merchandise sell for loss in England) which when they came to vent here, returned to very bad account, and went off not under eight or ten per Cent. loss, whereby the Merchandise of bringing those moneys hither is seldom attempted, otherwise we should have decoyed great store of their money hither: Now if our moneys yielded no better gain abroad, neither our people nor foreigners would steal so much out of the Nation as now they do, but export our native commodities in its stead, to our great advantage, and the increase of his Majesty's customs; for goods exported are sure to pay some duty, but money stolen abroad pays nothing, unless to the corrupt Officer to connive at it.  
And now I proceed, with my judicious Author, who saith, that the general remote cause of our want of money is the great excess of this Kingdom in consuming the commodities of foreign Countries, which prove to us discommodities, in hindering us, at once, from spending our own growths and Manufactures, and preventing us of so much Treasure which otherwise would be brought in in lieu of those toys, (and trifles which nourish our excess, and luxury) for now a days most men live above their qualities and callings, and promiseously step forth vice versa into one another ranks (like an Army falling into confusion:) the Countryman's eye is upon the Citizen, the Citizen upon the Gentleman, the Gentleman upon the Nobleman, and by these means we draw unto us, and consume amongst us, that great abundance of the Wines of Spain of France, of the Rhine, of the Levant, and of the Islands; the Raisins of Spain, the Currants of the Levant, the Lawns and Cambrics of Hannault and the Netherlands, the Silks of Italy (and Persia too) the Sugars and Tobacco of the West-Indies, and the Spices of the East-Indies, (if this was a just complaint forty six years ago, how much more cause have we now, who spend ten times as much:) all which commodities are of no necessity to us, and yet are bought with ready money which otherwise would be brought over in Treasur, if these were nor. (Nay now we send our own current Coin for many of these superfluities, which it seems forty six years ago were brought in by the product of our own growths and Manufactures.  
A Commonwealth (says this Author) is like unto a Family, the Father or Master whereof ought to sell more than he buyeth, according to old Cato's Counsel, Patrem Familias vendacem non emacem esse oportet, otherwise his expense being greater than his Revenue, he must needs come behind hand: even so a Commonwealth that excessively spendeth Foreign commodities dear, and uttereth the native fewer and cheap; shall enrich other Countries but beggar itself: where on the contrary, if it vented fewer of the foreign, and more of the Native, the residue must needs return in Treasure.  
Passing over other reasons, not material to our present occasion, which he gives for the decay of Trade, I will come to the efficient causes of the decay thereof, as he alleges, which are either Usury at ten per Cent. or unnecessary suits in Law: in the former of which, says he, I am prevented by him that wrote a little Treatise against Usury, which it seems for modesty he refused to own. I conceive my Author means the Book now reprinted by J. C. and annexed to his discourse, the Author whereof was (I perceive by his Son) Sir Thomas Culpeper Senior, a worthy and good man.  
But I proceed, with my unknown Author, who, says he, has a word to his Usury. That 'tis not an Usury of ten per Cent only that wringeth this Commonwealth, but an extorsion. also of 20, 30, 40. nay of Cent. per Cent. per annum as the Italians speak, given and taken on pledges, and pawns, and that on poor people's labour in London especially. Which is a biting Usury indeed (destructive to the Nation) and a fearful crying fin before God: which I do as freely confess and abhor, as any man that is for three per Cent. Yet this will be more and more practised the lower Usury by law is reduced.  
My unknown Author having alleged the premised causes (amongst others, not here material to dilate upon, as false making, and false sealing of our Drapery, ill Government in Trade, Monopolies, etc.) proceeds to offer remedies, which (says he) present themselves.  
First, By raising his Majesty's Coin from time to time equal to what 'tis current abroad.  
Secondly, By making current amongst us foreign Coin, at equal value to what it is in its own Country.  
Both which may be done (says he) by his Majesty's Princely and prudent Negotiation with the Princes of our Neighbour Countries, the States of Holland especially, to keep a more constant course in the value of their Coyn.  
Then he proceeds to answer some Objections made against the raising of money; which (says he) are principally, either the continual raising of it, to follow the rising of foreign coin; or else the inevitable loss that will thereby fall upon men, in the endearing of all things, and particularly upon Land lords, and Creditors in their Rents and Contracts.  
His answer: For the continual raising of money, that will be needless, if the means be sufficient for executing the Statute for employments (meaning I suppose employing the poor for the carrying on of Manufactures) whereby money may be kept within the Land when we have it: and for the dearness of things which the raising of money bringeth with it, that will be abundantly recompensed unto all in the plenty of money and quickening of Trade in every man's haad: and that which is equal to all, when he that buys dear shall sell dear cannot be said to be injurious unto any: and it is much better for the Kingdom to have things dear with plenty of money, whereby men may live in their several callings, then to have things cheap with want of money, which makes every man complain.  
And as for Landlords and Creditors, their loss is easily to be prevented by proviso; that the Contracts made before the raising of moneys shall be paid at the value the money went at when the Contracts were made; according to the disposition of the Civil Law in this case: Valour monetae considerandus & inspiciendus est a tempore contractus, non autem a tempore solutionis.  
The raising also of the Coin would raise the price of Plate, whereby there would be less superfluity that way, and our old Plate (which perhaps in some men's hands is kept up for Treasure) would be certainly brought out and melted into Coin: (to which I may add, it would undoubtedly bring forth our hoarded Treasure, which is conceived to be great.)  
As for our immoderate consumption of foreign toys and Commodities, that may be restrained (says he) by Laws Vestiary and Sumptuary, according to the example of Germany, and other our Neighbour Countries.  
The remedy against high Usury, which then was ten per Cent. may be (says he) plenty of money: and he that offers any other cure (say I) violates nature, and commits a rape) for then, says he, men will have no such cause to take up money at Interest, as when money is scant and their expenses great: for as it is the scarcity of money (and many borrowers) that maketh the high rates of Interest (just quite contrary to what our new lighted Politicians maintain, when they affirm that high Interest only makes moneys scarce, and Kingdoms poor) so the plenty of money and few borrowers will make the rates low, better (and without any underhand tricks, whereby the Broker commonly gets more than the honest Lender) than any Statute for that purpose will do: a famous instance whereof we have in the United Provinces, where 'tis lawful for a man to take twenty in the hundred if he can get it (wherein it seems the Author of the Tract (meaning that annexed to J. C. mistaken observations, viz: Sir Thomas Culpeper Senior, against Usury was mistaken) and yet notwithstanding money is commonly to be hired there at 6, or 7. per Cent. by reason of plenty of money: and now Anno 1668. for the like greater plenty, and not by virtue of any Law, as is unjustly alleged, it is to be borrowed for once ask at 3. or 4. per Cent., and how vast the difference is between the kindly workings of nature, and the violent acting of a Law, when the matter is not prepared for it, I leave to every man to judge. Put us then into as thriving a humour (from which now we seem very far) and as rich a condition as the people of Holland, whereby we may have as many Lender's, and as few borrowers as they, and I dare avow Interest without a Law will be every jot as cheap with us as with them: In the mean time to force Usury as low amongst us, a needy and declining people, as it is naturally amongst those who are so thriving and prodigiously rich, is as unreasonable as to expect as great a Crop from a barren and impoverished Field, as from the most fruitful and enriched piece of ground; or to imagine that one of Pharaohs starved Kine in bad Pasture should yield as much milk as one that is lusty and well fed.  
FINIS.