A REPLY MADE BY MR. THOMAS PURY ALDERMAN OF GLOUCESTER, UNTO Two Gentlemen of the long Robe, And two Worthy Knights of the HOUSE of COMMONS touching Episcopacy; and DEANS and CHAPTERS; at a Committee of the whole HOUSE.  
Printed in the year 1641.   

A REPLY MADE BY MR. THOMAS PURY Alderman of GLOUCESTER; unto Two Gentlemen of the Long Robe, and two worthy Knights of the HOUSE of COMMONS touching Episcopacy, and Deans and Chapters; at a Committee of the whole HOUSE.  
Mr. HID,  
I Rise not up to Answer the Arguments of the Learned Gentleman of the long robe that spoke last, the which were to prove some Incoherence of the Preamble with the body of the Bill concerning the abolishing of Deans and Chapters in respect of their government in the Church of England, who have none at all, as hath been argued, but there are some Reasons stick with me, whereby I do conceive, that the Deans and Chapters have been, and are part of the Government of the Church of England, and that the preamble, and body of this Bill, therein may very well stand together; for if you take the Deans and Chapters in their Original, who (as it was said by a Learned Sergeant over against me) were first founded in superstition alike to your Regular and Secular Monks; or if you consider them as in their prime institution to be Consilium Epis. to assist Bishops in their Government, and Discipline; or if you look upon those Deans and Chapters of the last Foundation by Henry the eight: yet certainly they are in all these capacities a part of the government of the Church of England; and as well the Rural, as the Cathedral Deans are numbered by our own Writers among Church Governors, and they are in and among themselves a part of the Church Government, and by the Book of Reformation of Ecclesiastical Laws they are to govern themselves according to their Statutes of Foundation, and to keep them pure and entire, so fare as they are not repugnant to the Word of God, and our Constitutions of Religion. And for the better Satisfaction of this Committee and myself, here is a Copy of the Statutes Grant, and Foundation of the Dean and Chapter of the city of Gloucester, I have read them over, and do find; First, the end wherefore the Lands, and Possessions were granted unto them. Secondly, the manner and form of Government of themselves. And lastly, their several Oaths to keep all the Statutes prescribed unto them: And because of my weak memory, please you to give me leave to read the words in the Kings Grant, Englished thus;  
We have erected and constituted cathedrals & Colleges in the place of Monasteries, to the end, that where Ignorance, and Superstition did reign, there the sincere Worship of God should flourish, and the holy Gospel of Christ jesus should be daily and purely Preached. And further, that the increase of the Christian Faith, and Piety, the Instruction of youth in good learning and the sustentation of the poor should be forever there kept, maintained & continued; and the said Deane, prebend's, Cannons, and all other persons belonging to the said cathedrals and Colleges, are to be governed and ruled according to the Statutes prescribed unto them.  
Sir, the Statutes are many, I will in brief tell you the substance of some few of them. The said Deane, prebend's, and Canons, are always to reside and dwell in the houses of the said cathedrals, and there to keep a Family, good hospitality, to feed the poor, and to distribute Alms unto the needy, to be careful to Preach the Word of God, In season, and out of season, and to sow the seed of the Word of God abroad, but especially in the said Cathedral Church, and to have youth profitable taught there. And to the end that they may all serve God, as well at meals as in the Church, they are to have a common Table in the common Hall of the said Cathedral, where the said Cannons Scholars, Choristers, and under-Officers, are appointed to eat together, and the said Deane, and Chapter, are to give yearly twenty pound to the poor, beside their own poor Almsmen, and twenty pound more yearly towards the repairing of Bridges and Highways thereabouts.  
Sir, for the performance of the said Statutes and premises. The said Deane, prebend's, Canons, and Ministers of the said Cathedral, do, or ought respectively to take an Oath; and thereby in express words do call God to witness, and do swear upon the holy Evangelists, to rule, govern, and behave themselves well and faithfully in the said Church, according to the Will and Statutes of the Founder; and every one of them do swear, that he will to his utmost power, well and faithfully keep all and singular the said Ordinances & Statutes, as much as concerns himself, and will procure all others as much as concerns them to keep the same inviolablely: So help him God, and these holy Gospels of God.  
Mr. HID, You see wherefore the Lands were granted unto Deans and Chapters, what their Statutes are, and their Oaths to keep them: It might be thought that these men do know no way, another, or nearer way to heaven than they teach us; or otherwise that they would not sit in the seat of Perjury, as it may seem they do, without remorse of conscience: For it is notoriously known to the city of Gloucester and country there abouts, That not one of the said Statutes before mentioned, are, or ever were, during my remembrance, kept, or the matters contained in any of them performed by any of the Deans, or prebend's of the said Cathedral; They come indeed once a year to receive the Rents and Profits of the said Lands, but do not destribute unto the poor and needy their portion, neglecting altogether the mending of the Highways and Bridges, and do not keep any common Table at all: and in stead of Preaching the Word of God themselves, In season, and out of season, they are, and have been the chief instruments to hinder the same in others. Infinite are the Pressure that many Cities near unto Deans and Chapters, have endured by them, and their procurement. And whereas it was objected by another learned Gentleman of the long robe, That the Deans and Chapters are a body corporate, and that they have as much right unto their Lay possessions as any other body politic, or any City or Town Corporate; I am of his opinion, for such Lands and Possessions (if they have any) which they bought themselves in right of their corporation, or for such Lands as were given them for their own use, and I am well contented that such Lands should be left unto them; but their case is fare different in my opinion; for I have showed you before, to what godly, pious, and charitable uses the said Lands and possessions were granted unto them: And suitable thereunto you may call to mind the Londoners Case about Londonderry in the Starrechamber, where they were fyned 70000. pound to his Majesty, and the same afterwards estrated into his Majesty's Exchequer. But upon the Writ of Extent issuing out thereupon, his Majesty, as I have heard, received no benefit of any such Lands, whereof the Corporation was seized for the maintenance of any Hospitals, Bridges, or other charitable uses, or aught to have done, as I conceive. Seeing therefore the said Deans and Chapters are but trusties, and the profits of the said Lands, so ill employed by them, contrary to the trust reposed in them; I am clear of opinion, that by a Legislative power in Parliament, it is fit to take them away, and to put them into the hands of Feoffees to be disposed of to such pious, riligious, and charitable uses, as they were first intended: But it was said by a worthy Knight, That he should be unwilling to take away their Lands and Possessions, until he first knew how they should be disposed of, and how the persons, who were many thousands in this Kingdom (as he said) that would want bread, should be provided for. Certainly Mr. Hid (although that is not the work at this time) yet I account it no difficulty to satisfy that worthy Knight; for I find upon the survey of the Lands of the said Deanery of Gloucester, that it hath above twelve Rectoryes of good value, & about thirty Vicaredges, Pentions, and Portions of Tithes, which being at the first, Deo consecraota, most fit they should be still employed for the maintenance of the Gospel; and therefore if those Deans and prebend's being but seven in all to be now taken away, will be Preaching Ministers, there is, I hope, sufficient maintenance for so many of them as have not too much, besides, and yet to reserve as large a Salary as now they have for so many singing men there in holy Orders that cannot Preach. And then there are left to be provided for, but the Organist, eight Singing boys, two Schoolmasters, four poor Almesmen, and some under-Officers, whose yearly wages, comes unto about one hundred pound per annum; and the said Deane and Chapter have almost the third part of the houses of the City of Gloucester the old rent of them being yearly about 175. pound, which will well defray that charge with a sufficient Surplusage for repairing the highways, Bridges; and twenty pound yearly to the poor, as aforesaid.  
But over and besides, the said yearly revenues before mentioned, the said Deane and Chapter of Gloucester, although but of the last Foundation, and one of the least revenues in this Kingdom, yet they have eighteen goodly Manors, and also divers other Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments, besides the Manors houses, and premises, the old rent of Assize of one of the said Manors being 80. pound per annum; out of which Manors and Lands, the said Cathedral being to be made a Perochicall Church 200. pound per annum, or more may be allowed for a learned Preaching Minister there, and a hundred pound a year apeice, for two such others to assist him, with in few years, one of the said Manors will discharge, and also smfficiently repair the said Cathedral Church; and then the rest of the said Manors and Lands may be employed to other godly, pious, or charitable uses, as the Wisdom of the King and Parliament shall think fit, and suitable to this, but in a more ample proportion of maintenance, will be the allowances of all other Deaneryes in England.  
Again, this I conceive will answer another Objection raised by a worthy Knight at the Bar touching the poverty of the Clergy of England, if this Bill should take effect, surely my opinion is quite contrary; and to that purpose, I call to mind the saying of a learned Divine, Chaplain to a Noble man, upon some conference with him of our wished desire to remove scanlous Ministers, and to reduce the Impropriations of Bishops, and Deans and Chapters to a Preaching Ministry, if these things, said he, take effect, the Universities, will not be able to supply the Churches: And surely Sir, if these things take effect, I am confident we shall be so fare from having a poor beggarly Clergy, as that no Kingdom in the Christian world will have a more rich, and flourishing Clergy, both for Nurseries, and encouragements of Learning: and for their maintenance in more plentiful manner than it is at this present. Please you therefore to put the Question, I am ready to give my ade thereunto.  
FINIS.