A RELATION OF TWO Free Conferences Between FATHER L' cheese, AND Four Considerable JESUITS, Touching the Present State of the Affair of the Romanists in England. In order to the Carrying on their Great Design. Sent in a Letter from Paris, to a Considerable Popish Lord in ENGLAND. Printed in the Year 1680. The Preface. My Lord, SInce I owe to your Lordships recommendation, all the Advantages which I enjoy from the Countenance and Favour of Father Le cheese, I re●kon myself obliged to acquaint you with wh●tsoever I know concerns you, or is worth you notice. The following Conference was held the second Instant, and is of vast Importance to the Interest of that Religion which you profess, and that Cause wherein you have so far, and so honourably, embarked yourself. I had the good Fortune to be near, and particular the whole Consult, and having as well as I could from my Memory, put the effect of what was said in Writing, I take this Opportunity to give you early Intelligence thereof, that you may know how to regulate your Affairs, and prepare for those Great Things which are to follow. Whereby I have given an Instance, how strongly my Inclinations led me to render you all the Service that I can imagine may be acceptable to you, to whom I have devoted the remainder of my Life. I am, My Lord, Your Lordships most obliged and faithful Servant. Paris Feb. 4. 1679 / 80. A Relation of Two Conferences. &c. AS soon as the four Fathers had taken their places, Father Le cheese began to this Effect. There are no persons more concerned in the present Prosecution of the distressed catholics in England, than you are, and I myself am become zealous for that Nation to the highest degree, and am unwilling to loose the Glory of being one of the chiefest Instruments of reducing it to the Obedience of the Church. I have therefore desired this Meeting in order to our resolving upon some Methods whereby we may regain the Ground which we have lost by Oats his treacherous Discovery, and by the severe Enquiry which two successive Parliaments have made into our Designs. It doth indeed deserve the Wisdom and the Courage of the Society to attempt to change the Religion, and the Government of a Kingdom, when the whole Nation knows our Purpose, and all their Eyes are fixed upon every one of our Motions. We must disguise ourselves very well, if we hope to escape so nice a Scrutiny. I speak not this, Fathers, as if I doubted whether we ought to proceed any further, I hope such a shameful cowardice shall never slain the Followers of St. Ignatius; but in what Methods we are to walk? Whether we are obstinately to pursue our old Project in spite of the malicious Vigilance of the heretics? Or whether we are to dress ourselves in new Shapes, and to tread in new ways? That is, to be the Subject of our present Debate. Sir John Warner rose first and said. Sir John Warner. I do assure your Reverence, that my thoughts are continually fixed upon this Business, so that what I shall say, is the Result of a very long Consideration. 'Tis known how dexterously we had laid our Design, how certainly the guilt of the Kings Death, would have been laid on the Presbyterians, if we had succeeded in that Attempt. And I am still of opinion that there is no other means to divert the storm from the catholics, but by contriving some way to make the Presbyrerians guilty, or at least seem so, which does our Business altogether as well. 'Tis true, the Votes of the last accursed Parliament have awakened the Nation to expect from the Papists( as they call us) the Murder of the King, and to revenge it upon us; so that as things now stand, I look upon it as impossible to strike that Blow, and yet dissemble from what hand it came. We cannot at present commit the Treason, and make the Presbyterians the Traytors, 'tis necessary therefore, that for some time he must live, however odious he be to us. It will be Wisdom indeed, to make a virtue of this Necessity, and to contrive how he may be useful to us, while he lives, even against his Will. Nor do I despair but this may be effected. Let me beseech your Reverence to suffer me to give you in short our account how the Interests in England are divided: to do which I must be forced to look back to the year 1660. You know well how much all wise and good catholics did apprehended, upon the Kings Return that those happy Differences between the Episcopal and Presbyterian parties would have been composed. The King's Declaration made us think that he saw his true Interest and would pursue it. And one would have thought that the Contenders, should have grown wiser, and used the true way for the future to avoid those Animosities which had cost them so dear. But it was so happily ordered, that the most indiscreet and hottest of the Episcopal Clergy were entrusted with the Management of this Affair; who being full of Revenge for what they had suffered, did not bring with them that Temper which was necessary to the good Conclusion of such a Business. Some Alterations were made in the Liturgy, but such as gave no Satisfaction; and soon after, an exact Conformity upon harder Terms, than ever was required under the ●everest Penalties. And Informers were every where encouraged to a severe putting of those Laws in Execution. Every mercenary Pen was employed against them. The People were taught that Rebel and Presbyterian were Synonimous Terms; and that it was impossible to be a Dissenter from the Ceremonies of the Church, and not be factious and seditious, although they have no dependence one upon another. In the Universities the Youth were taught to look upon those as the worst of men, who would not come up to every Tittle of what Laud in the late Kings Reign would have introduced. Nay they went so far, as that some of the dignified Clergy told the World in print, that to reject any of the enjoined Forms, or Ceremonies was a greater sin than to commit the greatest Immoralities. Nor were they content to represent these as the worst of villainies, unless they made them the greatest of fools too. And therefore the most scurrilous Pens were chosen out to dress them up in as ridiculous a sort as they could device. I mention these things to your Reverence because they were the occasion and Enncouragement whereupon we ventured to attempt the regaining of that Kingdom. We observed how deep a Discontent this sort of Behaviour towards them had fixed in the Hearts of all the oppressed Party, and we did conclude they were men, and would resent it when they had Opportunity, and we did insinuate as much as we could, their Fears into the Minds of the English Clergy. At Court we represented their numbers as dangerous, whilst the Episcopal party were as busy in representing their Principles as intolerable. And we were sure to have the Ministers on our side: for a great many of the most wealthy, sober, and observing Men being of that Persuasion, that alone was sufficient to make them obnoxious and hated, in a luxurious Court, where Money will ever be wanting, and no way to get it be looked on as unjustifiable. The King was no less displeased with them, for when by our Interest with the D. and the Lord Cl. we had procured the Declaration of Indulgence to be set out on the year 1671 / 2, the Presbyterian presently suspected the kindness, and, like wise men, closed with the Conformists, and refused the Bait, however specious it seemed, when they saw the Hook that lay under it. This thing did highly exasperate the K. against them. And soon after, the Ea. of D. coming into the Ministry, and finding that his mortal Enemies the D. of B. and E. of S. had attained to a good Opinion amongst that sort of men, he found it necessary to strengthen himself with the other party. Then was the late K. Statue set up, and a motion made in the House of Commons, to have his Body honourably interred, after it had lain in quiet so many years under Ground. The old Cavaliers were cajoled, even the D. of L. began to make Speeches for Episcopacy, and the whole Band of Pensioners in the House of Commons were perpetually crying out, Forty and Forty One. By this your Reverence may very well perceive, that went upon good Grounds, when we pretended to fix a Plot upon a party so detested by the Bishops, and the old Cavaliers, so feared by the Ministers, so suspected by the King, and so declared against by the House of Commons. And the business began luckily, Claypole( a man of no Design, but one who had married Gromwels Daughter) was apprehended and committed to the Tower for Treason, upon an Accusation of a Design against the Kings Person, to be executed at the same time, when our Assasins were prepared to strike. 'Tis true we were detected, and our Ruin was very near, but we may still be successful, if we be not wanting to ourselves. I must confess whilst I am in Apprehension of new Discoveries, every day my Heart failed me very much, but since the acknowledge of those that have come in, and the different Method of Examination of things of that nature by Parliament and by other Courts, have not given sufficient Encouragement to any person of Quality and Parts, to come in and confirm what hath been discovered; I begin to grow assured, and to believe we may yet turn the Plot upon the Presbyterians. Consider, Sir, that the murder of the Scotish Bishop, and the Rebellion in Scotland, have put many of the dignified Clergy in England, in a manner, beside themselves. They begin in good earnest to think the late times are coming on again, although we or our Friend the D. of L. are only able to give a good Account of that business. The whole story of the Civil War, and of the late ruin of their Church is grown again the business of the Press and Pulpit. A Gentleman of good quality who came lately to Paris, assures me, That if a stranger were to hear the Sermons, and Discourses of the generality of the Dignified Clergy, he would indeed guess that there had been discovered of late, a horrid Conspiracy against the K. and Government, but he would never Guess, that the catholics had been accused of it. Consider, if you please the numerous party we have there ready to receive every Impression to the disadvantage of the Presbyterians. What excellent use have we made of the Liberty of the Press already, having gotten the most furious Books, written against them in the late Times( when the Sword was drawn) Reprinted, together with all the Treasonable Pamphlets those Rebellious Times produced. Nay we have Assistance beyond our hopes, and Sir W. D. Le. Na. and Fr. are as busy in scribbling against the Dissenters, as if the late War were fighting over again. Besides it happens very luckily that some of the most Active and Considerable Persons, who are busy against us, both in and out of Parliament, were of the Peoples side in the late Times, of which 'tis natural for us to make this Use; That it is their old Republican Principle only which makes them so averfe to his R. H. And this Bait is swallowed with wonderful greediness by the credulous Clergy, who are never to be reconciled to any party that were once for lessening the Hierarchy. Every thing is prepared for this Design. And a numerous party are longing for some Evidence of a guilt, which is found only in their Desires. Heaven does not only inspire us with this Project; but assists and instructs in it. Let us therefore go on with out usual diligence and constancy. Every day device new Tales to increase the jealousy against the Presbyterians. Let us whisper abroad the greatness of their Numbers, the Incorrigibleness of their Principles. Let us( when things are got to a little more maturity) strengthen that Evidence which we have already prepared against them. Let us provoke the most hot-headed amongst them to some Extravagancies and Indiscretions( which may easily be done) and we need not fear but the Church-men will improve every slight offence, and cannot forbear striking their old Enemies, though the blow in all probability, by God's blessing, may prove mortal to the whole Protestant heresy. He had no sooner concluded, but Father Warren began in this manner. Warren I am perfectly of Sir John Warners Opinion, That no greater happiness could be wished in this Juncture, than to be able to fix any seeming Plot upon the English Fanaticks. It would be like fresh Game started, and would certainly tempt the hotheaded Hunters to leave their Old chase of the Papists, as they call us, and pursue the new Discovery. I know very well that it would be a very great weakening of the common Enemy, and make another Civil War amongst Protestants. I know, however their Learning be despised by the pretended Church of England that yet that severity which they keep up in their Manners, and so constantly press on their Disciples, has in an extraordinary manner obstructed the advancement of the catholic Religion in England by hindering that general debauchery, and corruption of manners, amongst those heretics, which would have let us in upon them so easily. As may be demonstrated by our success in the Court, and other places where none of those intractable whining stoics come. I am not ignorant that any Reconciliation betwixt us and them is impracticable. There have been Bramhals, and Lauds, and Grotius's, and Lloyds, have fancied it possible to reconcile other sort of Protestants to us, but there never was yet a man so fond as to hope for any union between the catholics, and the Disciples of Calvin. I am also very sensible that no sort of men have been so industrious in ruining our late hopeful Contrivances nor none so Jealous of us, and consequently, so careful to watch in what shape the designs of the Society will next appear. But let me after all, put your Reverence in mind, that it would be for ever fatal to us to set on foot such an attempt at such a time and fail in it. Now the Thing in itself is not easily credited. Nothing is so apparently the Interest of the Dissenters, as to keep the C own on the King's head: A King under whom( at present) they enjoy great ease from the penal Laws, and exercise their way of Worship without fear. Whereas, were be taken away, what could they hope for from his Successor, whose temper is so well known, whose aversion to them, and whose firmness to us, is more manifest than that he is to Succeed? I speak this to show that no man can suspect the Presbyterians of such a Design, who does not at the same time think them all Fools and Madmen. Besides by my Observation, they are generally the Wealthiest Men in the Kingdom, and so have most to lose in a tumultuous state. They have paid dearly for the last War, and have very lately attained to this ease, which they now enjoy, and therefore no man can think they will willingly hazard it. To deal truly, they seemed to concur so unanimously to the Restoring of the King, when they were possessed of a Power which might have obstructed it, that it cannot but have some influence upon his mind, and take off any suspicion, which their former behaviour might have given him. They have lived quietly ever since he came in, and they never lived so much exempt from Persecution as now they do, and therefore it will be very difficult to cousin any one into a belief that they have a Plot against the King's Life, because it is most plain, it were in effect a Plot against themselves. Let me add to this, That we are not now upon a new unfolded Project. We have more than once attempted the same thing, and have been defeated. Sir John Warner mentioned to your Reverence the ill success of the design upon Claypole, but he forgot to tell you of the latter Detection by Danger field. This Project was formed and brought to great ripeness, and had it been to be executed by Heads a degree cooler than those of the Countess of P. the Lord C. and Mrs. C. in all likelihood it had not so unluckily miscarried. This alone is sufficient to bring a scandal upon any thing of this nature to be attempted for the future, and all that have heard of this will be ready to smile at the naming of a Presbyterian Plot hereafter. Should a new Forgery of this sort be detected, we should infallibly draw again upon us the fury of the People( which seems somewhat abated towards us at present) and that possibly would not be appeased but by our final Extirpation. 'Tis therefore my humble advice, that catholics should comply with the necessity of the times, and have a little Patience. Let us not grow so vain upon the expectation of a Successor of our own, as to endanger his Succession, but let us be quiet for a little time, and a little time will work wonderful things for our advantage, especially if we can keep off Parliaments. 'Tis at that mark we must all aim. Nothing can ruin catholics in England but a Parliament. 'Tis a Parliament only can make the King sensible of those Friends of ours that are concealed very near him. 'Tis that only can revive the Prosecution of the Plot, which now in the Interval languishes apace. 'Tis that only can support the Old Witnesses, and encourage New ones to come in. In a word, 'tis a Parliamentary Enquiry alone that is sufficient to complete the Discovery of a matter, wherein so many Great, so many Rich, so many Powerful Persons are concerned. If we but keep off Parliaments, we may reasonably hope from the temper of the Witnesses, That they will run into such indiscretions as will lessen their credit among the People. I am sure O. and B. have lost much in the general Opinion since their baffle in the business of my Ld. Ch. J. Sc. and if they are put out of hopes of seeing a Parliament meet, they will either be discouraged, or provoked; and either way, I dare undertake we shall gain Advantages upon them every day. We shall save our Friends in the Tower, whose Heads will certainly be in great danger if there be a Session. We shall save our friends at the Court, who will not be in a much better condition. And we shall preserve the Succession in the Right Line. By a long Interval of Parliaments, we may have time to form new Designs, and many unseen Accidents will turn to our Advantage. I will not urge this Point farther, for I am sure your Reverence, and all the Fathers are of the same Opinion with me in this particular. But the difficulty consists in the means how this shall be effected. That which I shall propose is, first, That the D. of Y. be sent for to London. The K. will never be firm unless he be by him to Inspire him continually with new Courage; and besides, we see his Northern Journey has in no sort answered our expectation, nor will his stay there, be of any Use to us, as I could demonstrate. Besides this, His Most Christian Majesty may lay his positive Commands on the D. of P. or his ambassador, and on his other Friends in the English Court, that they never harken to any Proposal of a Parliament, on any pretence whatsoever, but use all arts and endeavours to keep it off. And if your Reverence could prevail with him to throw away a little money on so good an occasion, we are assured by one who has been a Martyr for our Cause, That in the English Court, logic built upon Money, has more powerful Charms than any other sort of Reasonings. The truth is, if the matter be well considered, it is not so difficult to effect it, since there is hardly a person in Credit with the K. who must not fear a Session above all things. The D's Head lies immediately at stake, and that Favourite is not yet forgot, at W. H. L. has provoked Parliaments beyond all hopes of Reconciliation. I dare take upon me to say, the D. of P. dares not stand that Shock. My Lord, Mr. H. &c. and Mr. G. who look like some-body out of Parliament, will then appear so little, as may hazard their credit with the K. The D. of Y. runs infinite hazard by their Meeting. Nay the K. himself is apprehensive that he cannot but lie under some reflections, since that false and ungrateful Favourite, D. has directly charged him with all that has been done during his Ministry. I hope I have shown my Proposition to be very feasible, as well as very advantageous; And I am very confident it will above all other things do the business of the catholics. Sir Tho. Preston, I agree with Father Warren( said Sr. Tho. Preston) that it's of absolute necessity that we should not suffer Parliaments to sit, but I must add, with Sr. John Warner, that 'tis no less necessary for us to fix some Conspiracy upon the Presbyterians immediately. Take the several Counsels of both the Fathers together, and we cannot fail of success. Our counterfeit Plot will be discovered, if the Parliament sit. And the Parliament must needs sit in a little time, if we cannot charge a Plot upon the Presbyterians.( By Presbyterians I do not mean those only that are really so, but we must order it as Arch-Bishop La●d did, who called every one a Puritan, who was not for his sort of Government in Church and State) Notwithstanding all that Sera in fundo parsimonia, that new good Husbandry taken up at Court, the want of Money will increase so fast, that it will be impossible to hinder the K. from calling the Parliament together in a little time, if you do not make him afraid of them, and that can be done by no other means than by persuading him that they are generally Presbyterians in the House of Commons, and that the Presbyterians are at this instant contriving against his Crown. It was observed to your Reverence before, how much the E. of D. thought himself concerned to cry out of the return of Forty One, and I do not see but the present Ministers do the same, only they have the advantage of New Arguments to use. They tell the K. every day, how much the Insolence of that Party is increased under colour of Prosecuting the Plot. They press him with an unanswerable Argument, as they call it, drawn from the late Petitions for the Sitting of the Parliament, and the K. seems to give some Ear to them. Tho' I am told, a Protestant Lord said to him lately, That because some Rebels once Petitioned for unreasonable things, that from thence he ought not to conclude, that whoever asked reasonable things of him, and when they had done, disputed not his Power of denying, were Rebels. It is easy to persuade one, who desires it should be so, that such a Woman is a Whore. Nor is it more difficult to make a Man seem guilty in his Eyes, who has not a mind he should be Innocent. Have not the constant Sermons before the K. of late been, of the danger of that Faction, which begins, as they say, to revive so strongly, and does not every Pulpit and every Press abound with the same stories? Nay what is it we can despair of, after we have seen Mrs. C. and Mr. G. admitted as evidence to prove a Presbyterian Plot, upon Sir R. P. when the Contrivance of the Forgery had been before directly proved upon those very persons, by the Testimony of Dangerfield, confirmed with many Circumstances? 'Tis cowardice to fear after such Success; and 'tis Folly to have too good an opinion of our Adversaries. Do we not see they help us all they can? Do not a great party amongst the heretics labour as hearty to serve our Interest, as if they were of our Religion, and more ready to be gulled into a belief of some Presbyterian Conspiracy, than we are to form one? I regard not the Absurdity nor the Improbability of the Accusation, if it be against the Dissenters, there's scarce a Conformable Clergy man in England, but will believe it. Nay, I have advice from England, That some of our Friends there, have taken Advantage of some hasty words, which Oats has said of some Bishops, who used him unkindly, and of some Familiarity which he has been observed to have with some Dissenters, to report him a fanatic. The thing has so taken fire, that the furious Men of the Church of England, are more zealous in whispering things to his disadvantage, than any of us are. Nor do they stop there; they begin to talk slightly of the rest of the Witnesses. They question the Truth of their Testimony, because of some Indiscretion in their Conduct in other matters. They take advantage of every little slip in their Expressions, and every improbability in what they say, and argue, as if what was improbable could not be true. Nay, after the Truth of their Evidence has been justified by the concurring Approbation of the K. two Parliaments, and the Courts of Justice; after we ourselves had given it the greatest Confirmation imaginable, and made it as clear as Noon-day, by our frequent attempts of Subornation, as manifestly proved as the Nature of the Thing is capable of, there are men in England, who( as yet) are no catholics, who Print scurrilous Papers against the Witnesses, and writ and spread Libels of them, with the utmost diligence. You see what Invitations we have to attempt what I propose, which if joined with common Discretion, and ordinary Diligence, will without doubt be very successful. If we could set up some in London, or near it, to present Petitions for putting the Laws in execution against Dissenters upon the account of their late insolent( as it must be called) Petition; or by burning the Rump again, or some such other public reviving the Resentment of the Court against the Actions of the late Times, whereby we should revenge their Petitioning and their Burning of Popes, and prevent them for the future. Or if we could but get these things done either by our Friends at Court, or any how, so they were but done, we might make very good use of them, especially if as preparatory thereunto, some Reformation were made upon the Benches at Westminster and in the country, and all Courts of Judicature were filled with Men of warm Tempers, who have malice enough to the Dissenters to execute the Laws in good earnest against them. The Imprisonments and Fines, and the Banishment from Corporations would so pursue both the Preachers and the People, that it would be easy, with good management to provoke them, or at least some of the meanest, who are usually most zealous, to no little excesses. 'Tis but well dissembling that we are of that Party, and then inculcating into their minds the rigor of their Persecution, the mise●●y of their condition, and the folly to suffer themselves to be used so by a party far less numerous than themselves, and 'tis more than probable, that by this Artifice some of them may be drawn into some Conspiracy, which may be laid in their way. But if we should fail therein, yet discontented they would be, and 'tis natural for every man to think that he who is discontented with his present condition, will desire to change it, and then mens minds are prepared to suspect that they will attempt such a change. By this means we shall certainly stop the Presbyterians from hunting so suriously after our Plot, who will then have enough to do to save themselves and then I am confident we may be quiet enough in England. After a little Pause, Father Conyers discoursed after this manner. Father Conyers: I hope I have given a sufficient Testimony of my zeal and Courage by my late personal undertaking, to do which the whole Society thought of such absolute necessity to be done, when we had been so often disappointed therein by Lay hands. Nor doth any fear of my late Danger continue to make Impressions on me. But I have lived long in England, and am so well acquainted with the Humour of the People, that I know that all which has been Proposed will be much too little to restore the catholic Religion, or secure catholics in that Kingdom. 'Tis Indeed necessary that the Meeting of the Parliament should be deferred for some time, but if it should be put off too long, it would be certainly no less fatal to us than to the Crown. 'Tis necessary to make the Fanaticks as odious, and as much suspected as we can, and I see very well how useful it would be to us, if we could revive the Prosecution of the Laws against them. But I also know well, that though such a Prosecution would be very acceptable to a great part of the Clergy, and the Old Cavaliers, who felt the late War, and who will never think they have sufficiently revenged themselves, yet it would be far from being pleasing to the Body of the Nation, who, though they are not Dissenters, yet are moderately inclined. The Latitudinarian Opinions having of late very much prevailed amongst them, especially if they observe that at the same time, when all this severity is used against Protestants, all the Penal and Sanguinary Laws against us shall be laid asleep, the Prosecution of the Plot shall cease: The Lords in the Tower shall remain Untried. The D. shall return to Court, and the catholics more than ever resort thither, and be kindly look't on there. These are not the ways to appease the rage, and quiet the apprehensions of the People, on the contrary, it will infallibly cause a general defection; and with submission to your reuerences Judgement I confess, that in my opinion an Universal Commotion will be as assuredly destructive to us, as a little Hurry and Tumult would be for our Advantage. All other Stratagems will not be sufficient to deceive them, unless at the same time you seemingly secure them from the Growth of Popery, and of the Succession of a Papist. The K. must Banish the Papists out of England if ever he intends to have Money from a Parliament. I know very well that no man can be banished England but by an Act of Parliament, unless he consents himself, as his R. H. did( and thereby has gained much on the K. especially since the D. of M. refused) and then 'tis rather Departure than a Banishment. But it will give the catholics the reputation of the best of Subjects( at the Court) when it shall be observed there that they are the only men, who comply with the least Intimation of the Ks. pleasure, and( however grievous the Commands may be) have learned to Obey and not to Dispute. But neither do I mean that there should be any direct Proclamation, or Order of Council for their Banishment, that might possibly be of ill Consequence, and make the People( who are ever extremely jealous of their Liberty) to suspect some Confederacy, and they would cry out immediately against the Papists, as Men who were introducing slavery by a President. At least they would fall upon the Ministers for using an unlawful way to rid the Kingdom of those whom they might drive out of it lawfully. Now Slavery is as great a Bugbear in England as Popery, and the people who understand Magna Charta and the Bible much alike, yet will die before they will lose either. The Method I would have used is, to Issue out Commissions for Seizing two parts of three of the Recusants Estates, with strict Orders for convicting all who are not already convicted. And let there be also public Directions given to the Commissioners to forbear the Seizure of the Estates of those catholics, who shall leave the Kingdom within half a year; But that no mercy should be shown to those who stayed after that time, but that every penal Law should be let loose upon them. This will have a very good appearance amongst the People, if it be really executed, who will begin presently to lessen their Suspicion of the Court, when they find the catholics Persecuted( as they think) in good earnest. I am very sensible that this proposal of mine cannot be effected without great inconvenience to many of our dearest Friends, but Private convenience must give place to public Utility, and every Pious Soul will be content to suffer, when they are made to understand that so great a deliverance will suddenly and certainly follow. Besides I consider the catholic Gentry may easily be content to travail for a year or two( for it will be no more) they are not entangled in Offices and Employments, but may live as cheaply, and almost as conveniently abro●d as at home. And we must take care to procure Dispensations for all the Trading catholics and those of lower degree( who are not already furnished with them) that so they may take the Oaths and comform, which they may do and no great notice will be taken of it. And by this method no considerable mischiefs will fall upon our Friends by this seeming severity, and yet all manner of suspicion in the people will be cured. The K. once more set right in their good opinion, and the Persecuting of the Presbyterians Justified, as being only the Consequence of a resolution in his Majesty to regain the honour of the Government by an effectual and impartial. Execution of the Laws. Then it may be a season to think of a Parliament. Then 'twill be fit to dissolve this, from whom no possible good can be expected, and to summon a new one. For by that time all the Presbyterians will be under the Lash of the Penal Laws, severely executed, and under suspicion of horrid Conspiracies, by the Methods before proposed, and consequently will not dare to pretend to be Elected, or to interpose at Elections, and so we may once more have a Parliament like the last Long One. And if we can once again get such a Parliament, then the Presbyterians themselves will look upon a General Act of Oblivion as a Grace, and consequently thereby all our Friends may be set at Liberty. But these are little things, What shall we not be able to do in such a Juncture, with such a Parliament? But yet I must confess to your Reverence, That tho the physic I have prescribed be sharp, yet I am fearful it may not be strong enough. I am suspicious still that whilst they are sure in England that a catholic must Succeed, they will never be free from fearing us, and 'tis possible, may in Parliament, take advantage of the Voluntary Banishment proposed before, to make it a Banishment in good earnest by a Law. I would therefore with all humility propose to your Reverence a thing which I have often thought of, and which I still believe to be the only Infallible means to cure the People of their Fear and Hatred to catholics. 'Tis that his R. H. should dissemble a Reconciliation to the Protestant Religion. I perceive your Reverence as well as the Fathers, are suprized at what I say, and yet I believe( though it might not be thought of, as I have often wondered at it) his R. H. Conduct in this whole business seems such, as if he had all along resolved, upon any pressing necessity, to leave himself room for such a Retreat. For though he is content that all the world should believe and see that he is a catholic, yet he has never directly told them so, nor publicly reconciled himself to our Church. Nay I have heard that one of the Secretaries should say not long since at the Council Board, that he wondered how any man durst say, that the D. of Y. was a Papist, since he had not declared himself such, and he did not believe that he was one( which was very much at this time of day.) So that it is not so dishonourable, nor so shameful a Retreat as a man would think before he hath considered it. Therefore soon after his Return out of Scotland, he may desire Conferences between us and some of the Bishops in his presence to satisfy him of some points wherein he doubts. Let him also hear some private Disputes between some of the Dissenters and us. Then let him declare his little satisfaction from the fanatic Divines, and seem convinced by the weighty Arguments of the Bishops, and so go to their Church with the K. One thing I could wish, that none of the most Learned, but only some of the weaker Bishops should be chosen for this service, for it may be of use to us hereafter to Print the Conference, when his R. H. is to return to us again. Or possibly it may be the best way that he should without any noise go again to the K's Chapel in the same manner that he left it, and receive the Sacrament and take the Tests. The consequence of all which will be that he will be made Admiral and General, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, and Lord High Constable of England, and have every great Trust put into his hands without suspicion▪ The Church of England will dote on him, and( against their reason) will pretend to believe his Conversion real. And whoever dare mutter the contrary, will be called a Rebel and a Republican. They will find out handsome Excuses for him for this short absence from them, and will be proud and exalted above all measure, that they have reduced him, when the ignorant Fanaticks( as they will call them) could not move him in the least. They will never be satisfied till they have put all power into his hands, and he may do what he will either in such a Parliament as I have mentioned, or out of it. I know it may be Objected, that this will appear to be very mean in him, and he will lose or lessen his Honour in the catholic World. But I know his Zeal to be such, that he will subject himself to any Dishonour, as well as to any Danger so he may promote the Holy Cause. And we may by our care in a great measure hinder any such Reflections upon him abroad. From being envied or feared, the catholics will then only be pitied in England, and from thenceforth will not be looked on as considerable enough to take up the least care of Parliament. And yet they need not be much discouraged neither; for every Confessor may be directed to communicate the Secret according discretion, and the measure of the parties understanding. Then will be the time for us to rid ourselves of that most Inconstant Prodigal Person, who never durst show his Love to us further than to do us a Mischief, by discovering his Inclinations to us and going no further. Then will his R. H. come quietly to the Crown, get the Revenue Established, an Army raised on any pretence, and without opposition may settle true Religion and true Monarchical Government in England. Another thing I would have done is, That immediately upon his R. H. his return out of Scotland, he should himself desire a Reconciliation with the D. of M. and procure him to be restored to his Majesties favour, and all his Offices. This will look like a generous thing; and the D. of M. has not sense enough to see through it. This will make that D. for ever suspected by the people, and when that is done, his R. H. may handsomely press the K. to require of him, to Sign and Seal in public a solemn Renunciation of all pretences to the Crown. If he does submit to this, he will for ever lose all Esteem, as one of an Abject Spirit. If he refuses, things may be easily so ordered, as that the Judges may call it Treason, so we shall either way be rid of the Pretences of that Counterfeit Prince, who may other ways give us great disturbance hereafter. There is besides this one thing which is well begun, but must be perfected, and that is the clearing the Council of some ill affencted Persons. Several indeed have lately quitted it, but there are enough still left to give disturbance to our Affairs. Now there is nothing would give a greater Authority to what his R. H. would have done than to have it the Result of a debate in Council. And therefore that Board must be so far refined, as to leave none there but such as we can entirely trust. In a word, Let his R. H. never rest till he gets the Council, the Judges, the Justices of Peace, and the Lieutenancy of England all of a Piece, and the Corporations thoroughly Reformed; and then he may do what he please without Opposition, for nothing that has the Face of Authority can oppose. He needs not much concern himself for London, he has done the business of that City already. They are furnished with such a Recorder, such a Lieutenancy, such a Court of Aldermen, that it is impossible they should be mended. The Fathers having thus severally delivered their Sentiments, Father Le cheese concluded the Conference in this manner. Le cheese. The debate of these weighty matters has given me abundant satisfaction, and a great light into the Affairs of England. I am clearly of opinion that to secure that Kingdom, every one of your Counsels must in some degree be pursued. Parliaments must be kept off, the Laws must be put in Execution against the Dissenters, and they must be either driven into or charged with some Treasonable Conspiracy. Nay the catholics must be content to quit England for some time; And I will make it my care that their reception in France shall be such, as that their Banishment shall be very easy to them. But the last thing that Father Conyers mentioned, may be attended with such important consequences, that I will not venture to give my Opinion, till I have communicated it to our General, which I will do with all speed, that he may represent it to his Holiness, who is almost as infallible in Policy, as in matters of Faith. I am convinced with the Fathers that it is the only way to cure finally the Jealousies of the heretics, and to secure the Succession, but I am apprehensive we shall pay too dear for it. For if his R. H. shows such an instance of Instability, it will very much lessen the opinion which the world has of his constancy and firmness of spirit. It will strangely discourage the Ignorant catholics; It will put a stop to our many daily Convents; It will amaze all the Hectors, and Beggarly Sword-men, who are now universally ours, but then will not know which way to take, and will be inclined against us. Nay, which I most apprehended is that when at last a new Parliament shall meet, if they should propose any severe and pernicious Laws against catholics, the D. must not oppose them, lest we lose the fruit of all this Venture and he discover to the World the Insincerity of his change. And 'tis certain, that then all those Men who are indeed of no Religion but what they think likely to prevail, will turn as violently against us, as now they appear for our Interests. It shall therefore be my business to let our General know the result of this Consultation; And I hope you will take care to communicate all other passages, besides this last, to the Fathers at St. Omers, and that Instructions may be sent into England to prepare catholics for the things which are to follow. An Account of a Second Conference, sent in a Letter from PARIS. My Lord, YOur Lordship having been pleased to receive kindly the account which I gave you of the last Conference, and Commanded me to use my Endeavours to continue the same Intelligence, I have thought it my Duty to watch for the next Opportunity, and have been so happy as to succeed in my Design. Yesterday the Fathers made a second Visit to his Reverence, and your Lordship has an account of their Debate in what follows. And though it be not told so well as it should be, yet because it is told early, it may obtain pardon for, My Lord, Your Lordships most obliged humble Servant. Paris, May 28. The second Conference. AS soon as the first Civilities were passed between them, Father Le cheese commanded the Room to be cleared of all other Company, and then desiring the Fathers to retire with him into his Closet, near the Entrance of which I could conceal myself, he told them, That as he doubted not but he should receive from them a good account of those things which they had undertaken at their last Meeting, so he thought himself obliged to let them know in what manner he had acquainted himself on his part, which he could not better do than by showing them the Letter which he had lately received from their General. The Letter as near as I can remember was to this effect. I have communicated to his Holiness yours of the 5th of February last, who was wonderfully delighted to see your Reverence engage yourself, with such Christian fortitude, in a design so truly catholic, and did much approve your choice of those Fathers with whom you thought fit to communicate, as knowing them to be all Persons whose Judgments are no less eminent, than their Zeal and firmness to the catholic Cause is meritorious. His Holiness, immediately upon the sight of it, commanded me to call together those three Persons, in whom your Reverence knows he does above all others most justly confided. And after long deliberation had upon that Subject, and weighing the conveniences and dangers of either side, which you had with so great judgement represented in your Letter, both he and they are absolutely of opinion, that the Duke must by no means dissemble a Change in Religion, for that it will inevitably bring infinite Mischiefs on the catholics and their Cause. This I am commanded to acquaint you with. I have further in command from his Holiness to beseech you in his name, to continue your Paternal care for that unhappy afflicted Nation; and to give his thanks to the rest of the Fathers, whose diligence in this Affair has given them the highest place in his Holiness's good opinion. He sends you his Apostolical Benediction. To which I will add my Prayers for Success in your Undertakings, and that the Mother of God may have your Reverence in her keeping, and protect you. Your reuerences most affectionate Brother in Christ, Johannes Paulus Daliva. As soon as Father Warren had made an end of reading the Letter, Father Conyers offered to speak, but Father Le cheese said, he thought himself obliged to give them an account how he had behaved himself in those other things wherewith they had charged him at their last meeting. You all thought it necessary, said he, that my Master should be engaged to use his Power and his Purse( if he could be so far prevailed upon) to prevent the meeting of an English Parliament, and you see by the Success that I have not been negligent. No Parliament hath sate, nor do we yet hear of a Session. But the growing necessities of that Court can be no otherwise supplied, but by Aids from them, or from hence. My Master is not unwilling to part with his money, could he have an Equivalent; and Tangier has been proposed as a thing which the King of England has never made any great Advantage of, and is more chargeable to him than Dunkirk was, which yet he partend with, merely in a compliance to my Master's Designs, when his Revenue was larger, and his Debts were not so numerous and vast as at present. This I look upon as a thing of Consequence, and such as well deserves your consideration. Having said this, and made them all sit down, Father Conyers spake in this sort. Conyers. Had I foreseen at our last attendance upon your Reverence, what has since happened in England, I had not made those Proposals which I then did. Things have succeeded there above our hopes; and divers fortunate Accidents, together with the variable humour of that People, have put us into almost as promising a condition as we were in before the first detection. When the Duke returned out of Scotland, the whole English Clergy fell down before him; Nor would they stay for any dissembled change of his Religion, to give them some countenance for their Joy and Flattery. In an Instant the whole Scene was changed, and every thing began to smile upon the catholics, and nothing was cried out against but the Fanatical Republican Spirit. That device of ours to reform the Commissions had such an admirable Effect, that we readily turned upon our Enemies the nimble Storm, which threatened us from the Petitions: For the Justices, by the assistance of the Clergy( tho' they had been put in mind, that their own Doctrine had allowed the Subjects those innocent Arms of Prayers and Tears) prevailed with more Counties to declare their Abhorrence of Petitions, than were found Petitioning. Nay, they went so far, that in almost every one of those Abhorring Addresses, in the very same period, they give his Majesty thanks for recalling his Brother, and taking care of the Protestant Religion. The old Justices were become so fearful of following those who had been so lately disgraced, and the New ones were so transported with their unexpected advancement, that none of them would stick at any thing, how absurd soever: as if the Duke's Presence at Court could only support the Protestant Religion, and that it was only a compliment to the King, when they call him, The Defender of the Faith. 'Tis true, there were but few that joined in those Addresses, and those also were but inconsiderable Persons, but yet coming from the Benches, and being presented and received with so much Solemnity, & set out with such care in the public News, they cozened the People as effectually, and pleased the King as well as we could desire; So that now catholics would have little to fear, even from a Parliament, had they one of the same temper, with that which Danby did so unfortunately get dissolved. But that spleenful Minister could not bear to be ill used by them whom he had fed so long, and Rage made him fatally join with the most Christian King's Minister in procuring the Dissolution of that onely Parliament that ever was( or I fear) ever will be useful to us, in our Design of changing the Religion and the Government of England. Le cheese. Here Father Le cheese interposed, and said, it was a truth, that unless Monsieur Barillon had joined in the Council, They all besides had been too weak to have prevailed upon the King to part with those on whom he had so sure a tie. But the Dissolving that Parliament, said he, in my opinion was a great Service to the catholic Interest, for it was our principal business to bring the King to a necessity of being firm to us, which was impossible, whilst that Parliament would perpetually feed him with money, and at the same time exclaim against France. But having deprived him of that certain Bond, we are now sure of him, for he will still want, and he can now only be supplied from France, or the catholics elsewhere, and he will always depend upon, and be guided by those that supply him with Money. Having said this, he desired the Father to proceed, who went on thus. Conyers. We have entirely gained our Design of possessing the Clergy with an opinion that the present Parliament is made up of Presbyterians and Commonwealths-men, tho' the truth is, upon perusal of the List, we cannot find above forty Dissenters from their Church, and much the greatest part of the House of Commons consists of such as were either themselves actually in the late Kings Service, or are descended from such as were, and they are fully persuaded, that if ever the King hearkens to Parliamentary Advice, their whole Hierarchy will be in danger. Their most famous Champions against us, and who have had a reputation of being very moderate in the Differences amongst themselves, begin now to appear with great Harmony against the Fanaticks, whilst the generality are warmed to that degree, that all their Sermons are turned to Invectives against that sort of men; and many of them exceed the bounds of Discretion; Nay, one has rashly published the Truth in Print, in a late famous Dialogue, that Parliaments can be born no longer, and that the King is necessitated to set up for Absolute Power; and declares openly that himself and his Brethren are for it. And that all who are of another mind, are for a Commonwealth, and we have done what in us lies to make the King believe the same thing. This good success has made another part of my former Advice no less unnecessary. That the catholics should for some time leave the Kingdom. The Church( as the Clergy calls themselves) are now so far from desiring us to be gone, that they would rather court our stay, and stick not to say publicly that they look upon us as better friends than the Fanaticks, and a good help against them: Besides, we are wholly eased in this particular by the good disposition of the present Magistrates towards us, for they bend all their force against the opposite party, and we are used as gently and civilly as if we were their best friends: the Courts of Justice forbear not to declare publicly, that the utmost Rigour of the Law shall be let loose upon the disaffected( which is the Word now for all those who are against absolute Government, or differ from the established Church, in their Ceremony quarrel) whilst in the mean time, they are so tender of the Liberty of a catholic, who comes before them; so fearful of breaking their Oaths in detaining us too long in custody; so easy and forward to bail us, that it seems, as if in the case of a catholic it were not a thing of Discretion but Necessity, to bail men accused of Treason. There is one case wherein they confess they cannot do it. But they denied it with so much Civility, and express so freely their Hearty Sorrow, that their Power was not as large as their Will, that we cannot but take it very kindly from them, and I am informed that a favourite Advocate not long since said publicly at the Bar, that they should soon make an end of this troublesone Popish Plot. There is another way whereby they express their kindness for us, in prosecuting severely, all those hot headed People, who suffer themselves to be provoked by the Management of things, to speak with any disrespect or Suspicion of the Government, and they order the matter so, that in giving their judgement, they take care to represent to the World such idle talk not as the effect of wine or passion, or as spoken by chance, but as the result of the Consultation of some disaffected persons, who had the Government of the Faction, and that all which these indiscreet men suffer to escape from them, was only what they had learnt from the more malicious and abler Heads of the discontented, that is, anti-catholick party. But this is not all, the King is grown sickly, and the Duke seems near the possession of the Crown, and therefore 'tis most plain, he must not now disown, but rather publicly avow his Religion; 'tis not less plain, that all catholics should not only forbear to depart the Kingdom, but should be near him, and ready to suppress any Insurrection that may happen on the Kings Death, and to execute those other things which will be absolutely necessary at that time: So that I cannot but admire his Holiness's great wisdom and foresight, and do most humbly and joyfully submit to his Determination. Here Father Conyers ending, his Reverence said. Le cheese. I am well satisfied by the success, that all other things which we agreed upon at our last Conference, have been executed with Care. But the many great Alterations which you have hinted to me, require that we should enter into a new Consultation, how we are to behave ourselves for the time to come. Warren. Upon this Invitation Father Warren took up the discourse in this manner. I am still of the same Opinion that I was before, that all the good we have received, and all the good we can hope for, depend entirely upon the not meeting of the Parliament: and it is my positive opinion that the catholics ought not, upon my pretence, or any hopes whatsoever, to suffer themselves to be cozened into a consent that any Parliament should meet during this Kings life: for it will then be impossible to keep him in Ignorance, or continue his good opinion of our Interest and Power, and the low esteem he now has of our Enemies. Therefore we must no longer defer the supplying his pressing occasion for money, and we can do it no other way, than by the help of the most Christian King. Your Reverence, we are all assured has done your utmost, and never will spare any pains in the cause of the Church: but still the matter is difficult, since some things must be found out( you say) which is proportionable in value to the money lent. I dispute not but 'tis reasonably enough demanded, but I fear it is not feasible. For the people have for some time been jealous of a design to part with Tangier, and the last Parliament confirmed them in that Suspicion, by voting a Bill to be brought in for annexing it to the Crown of England, and the Truth is, we have reason to fear desperate Effects from the Fury of the People, should they discover that it is Sold. Le cheese, You have Reason, replied Father Le cheese, for what you say, but things are ordered already that the King of Great Britain may suffer Tangier to fall into my Masters hands without the least suspicion. You know the Moors have besieged it long, and they have been assisted with Ammunition, Engineers, and some Souldiers from France, which it will be easy to increase to what Quantity and Numbers we please. And your King may, upon specious Prentences, delay the sending of succour so long, whilst we press it there so vigorously, that it must necessary be surrendered before any Relief can come. Thus all the World will esteem it lost by Misfortune, and not by Agreement; the Crown of England having thereby lost all Right to it, my Master will be thought to deserve the Thanks of Christendom, and act agreeable to his Title of most Christian, in regaining so important a place out of the hands of Infidels, who would only have made it a Den of pirates. So will my Master have his Desire, your Master will not suffer in his Honour or Opinion with the people, and yet will obtain all that he aims at, Money. I think this design may be improved further, if the pretended Successor be lead by some of those Lords and Gentlemen, who are principally in Favour with the Duke; for he will run no hazard of losing any of them, and yet the Nation will be thereby made to see, that the catholics and his favourites, are the only men who offer to expose themselves on all occasions for the public. Sir Tho. Preston. Sir Thomas Preston then said, that this expedient had a good Aspect, and he believed would take with the King, when it came well recommended to him, so that there wanted nothing but a good colour to have persuaded him to part with that chargeable place long since, and the thing was once so far resolved on, that it was proposed in Council, by an English Earl, and seconded there, that it was fit to be sold and the Sale would raise a very considerable Sum. But that Board was not then all of a piece, as it is now, and yet as well reformed as it is, and tho none sit there who will not patiently submit to any thing which is for the Interest of the Duke, and suited to the Kings Inclination, yet I should not think it Wisdom to adventure to make the Council acquainted with any purpose of parting with that useful and considerable Town. As soon as he had made an end of speaking, Sir John Warner began thus. Sir John Warner. I suppose the only meaning we have in furnishing the King with Money is, that we may once again provide him with an Army, for without it his old Fears will soon return upon him, and without it, his heretical Subjects can never be reduced. But without a plausible pretence( tho we were never so rich) no Army can be raised in England. I remember well what Endeavours were used in 1673. by men of much greater Credit with the people than any who are now at Court, and yet they could not get together 6000. men, and half of them run away too, within a Fortnight after their rendezvous at Black Heath, whereas in half the time on pretence of a War with France in the year 1677. near 40000. men were raised, by some who had little Interest or Credit in the Country, and if at all known there, 'twas only by their Names not their Estates. Now I confess it is my Opinion, that without the countenance of a Parliament, nothing but the same pretence, can raise an Army in England, and that too will not do it, unless by some other Artifices we can make the people believe, that the Court means more sincerely than the last time. I do therefore humbly propose, that his most Christian Majesty would permit our King to proceed in his Negotiating an alliance with Holland, Spain, and the Prince of the Empire, and to suffer him to enter into a League with them( as he did once already, for the common Security of Europe) the most Christian King can suspect no danger to himself from it. Since he is sufficiently assured that the Court of England has no less respect from him, and depend upon him as much as ever and they will as certainly neglect to serve the ends of such a League, and it will be as easily dissolved as the triple alliance was, as soon as our ends were attained by it: Nor will it be as difficult I hope to prevail with the most Christian King to suffer us to declare ourselves his Enemies once again, since he has had Experiences that we can do it without diminishing our Friendship for him in the least. The necessary Consequences of this will be, that an Army must be raised and sent over and put into several Garrisons in Holland or Flanders, and may be there disciplined and made ready to execute all our Designs in England, as soon as they are ripe. One further use of such a League may be to make it a Bait for a Parliament, and if any thing that will make them give freely for the support of it, as they did before to support the Triple League. And if they do so, care shall be taken, it shall be employed as much to their end as what was then given. And if they refuse or deny to give Money, the Court will have an admirable occasion of breaking them, and deserting the use of Parliaments, as being grown so openly averse to all the Interests of the Nation. I hope the most Christian King will never believe that he can receive Prejudice from an English Army in Flanders, whilst all its Officers are put in by his Royal Highness, who can never desert his interest. He cannot trust the Protestant party whose Destruction he has so openly endeavoured, and he knows the catholics are too weak and too few to serve him unless in Conjunction with France. Besides, your Reverence, who well knows how devoted all the Society is to the Service of the most Christian King, may safely assure him that the Duke cannot but be entirely his, whilst any Father of the Society has the Direction of his Conscience. But besides what I have said as to this particular, I am to let you know that we have resolved to communicate to your Reverence several things which have been done, and which we conceive very necessary to be done at Home, if they shall have your Approbation; Our Great Business is, to get the Duke once securely settled on the Throne, for after that, catholics have no more to fear. This the Factious heretics in England know, and therefore will not fail to lay hold on every pretence, which may disturb him and us, how little soever it be. Now we are sure he cannot be excluded by Law, whilst we can keep off Parliaments; Nor can we fear the Birth of a Nearer Heir whilst the Queen lives. But about the time of the Queens Marriage, there were some odd Stories whispered about the Legitimation of the Duke of Monmouth, which are indeed at present laid asleep; but that Duke having joined himself with the Faction, makes us fear, lest he designs to revive something of that matter, for otherwise nothing could be more senseless, than for him to incur the King's Displeasure, as he does, out of a mere Caprice; So that we, resolving to encounter him in his Policy, have again fixed that Report, which will be a handsome occasion for the Duke of York to press the King, that the thing may be examined at Council, and there we can turn it to our Advantage as much as we please, by a Discreet Interrogating the Persons convented before them. Nor can the King after that, deny the Duke to publish in Print the Declaration which which he formerly made, and perhaps we may get it enlarged, with fuller and more significant words. We have also prepared some Medals, representing the D. of Mo. as Prince of Wales, which we will get dispersed as handsomely as we can, and that will give a jealousy of some Design. And we should raise that Suspicion to a high Degree, if we could but get some of the malcontented Lords, and others accused, or but suspected of confederating, to setup his Pretences, which we are persuaded will not be difficult. This will be requisite, lest otherwise the King would be offended at the making a Scrutiny into such an Affair upon no grounds. We have also ordered it so, that several Ridiculous circumstances are joined with this story of his Marriage, and the examination of the Council may be onely as to those Circumstances, the Falsity and Foolishness of which will easily appear, and that may be made Use of to expose the whole thing. Le cheese. Here Father Le cheese, asking pardon for interrupting him, said, I fear that this Project may turn to your disadvantage, for 'tis dangerous, Quieta movere, and 'tis possible you may awaken a jealousy amongst the People, which you will never be able to satisfy, it being a very hard thing to convince men that a thing is false, which they wish were true. Besides, you know the catholics have lately been accused of a Design against the Kings Life, which, tho he do's not now believe, yet who knows what suspicion it may breed in him, that the Duke is preparing to get immediately into the Throne, when he sees him so very nice at such a time as this, in removing every thing which may obstruct his coming to it, or be dangerous to him when he arrives. Nor do I see what great Use the Duke can make of such a Declaration, for men will be apt to say; That the thing may be true notwithstanding. And tho it would be highly dishonourable in the King to Declare such a thing, if it were not true, yet it is no more than his Royal Highness himself has done, He having denied his Marriage with Mrs. hid, at his first coming into England, with the most solemn Asseveration, not sparing to reproach and scandalise her, till she proved it. Sir. Joh. Warn. What you object, hath great weight, replied Sir John Warner, But first you must consider, that to have the Business baffled upon a solemn Hearing before the Council, and denied by a public Declaration, cannot but damp it much, and put us in a better condition than we are in at present. For we fear, that if it be not now, it may come hereafter to be examined in a worse place; Whereas there is not a Lord in the Council, who will ask one Question toward the Discovery of the Truth, more than the Duke of York desires he should, and we do hope to make the Story so ridiculous, that it will never after be taken up by a Parliament. Nor do we fear that the King should grow suspicious of the Duke or catholics. He was never more supinely secure than he is at present; and we have so ordered the matter, that he has no time to think himself. The whole day being taken up in some Diversion or other, nor can any Enemy come near him, to whisper Jealousies into his Ear. Tis for that reason principally, that he is persuaded to stay at Windsor, because no man can come thither, who is a Confident, but his Royal Highness has immediate Notice, and can take care to prevent any Opportunity of private Access. And tho we have no reason to mistrust the Council, yet we have represented to his Royal Highness how necessary it is, that he should contrive some way to be present at, tho he do not assist in Debates there, lest otherwise, one time or other, some of the Lords may break loose, and tell too plain Truths; whereas being awed by his presence, they will not dare to venture his Displeasure by speaking any thing against his Interest. We have also told him the absolute Necessity of getting all the Garrisons and Commands into sure hands immediately, for Sickness as well as Age growing upon the King, 'tis time for the Successor to look about him. We are also very busy in contriving some way to divide the Faction amongst themselves, and do not despair of effecting it, since we know how ill an Understanding there is between two eminent Lords of greatest Interest with the People. We have been all this year in pain, by reason of the Lord Mayor, and we have reason to rejoice that things have not gone worse with us than they have. It must therefore be our Business to provide a good man to succeed him, for should the King be taken off, 'twould be of vast Importance to have the Lord Mayor ours. But 'tis so unfortunate, that the next man in Order, is the worst enemy we have in all the City; and therefore several Designs have been contrived for the putting him by. But our bold and faithful friend the Recorder, who will deserve the new Preferment we have got for him, hath desired to have the Honour of that Business to himself. And has prepared to prosecute him for neglecting to observe some thing enjoined by some of the late penal Laws, whereby he assures us, he will be rendered uncapable of that Office. But if he should fail, and that he will be Mayor, we must resolve, that he shall run the same Fate with the Duke of Monmouth, and the Lord Shaftsbury upon the King's Death. We must not forget to acquaint your Reverence with an unfortunate Accident, which might have ruined us, but I hope the Storm is blown over in a great measure, the Correspondence with the most Christian King and the Irish catholics hath been at large discovered, and that by so many Witnesses of unquestionable Reputation and Credit, and the thing told with all the Circumstances, so that it admits of no denial; but what we could not Resist we have Diverted, and have procured, that they should be sent back into Ireland, where we know our Friends to be strong enough to break through any thing, and we are satisfied we might trust the management of it to our wise and zealous Friend, the Lord Ch. The Business had been examined in England, had we been able to have ordered Matters so that the Examination should have ended with some Reflection on the Witnesses, and could have been sure to prevent its having been made public. There was another thing that might have cost us dear, and that was an attempt made upon one Arnold; a restless, hot-headed, implacable Enemy of ours, one who has as much malice against us, and more cunning than Sir W.W. Had he been killed outright it had been happy enough, for we had ordered it so, that it should have looked like a private Revenge, taken upon him by a Gentleman that had a controversy with him. But he has escaped with Life, and our Friends were so unfortunately transported in the act, that they told him the occasion that provoked them to do what they did, which he has since deposed. But however, our Confidence has saved us pretty well, and to those who will believe any thing we say, That he himself, or some other Protestants wounded him, only to cast an odium on us. But to others, whose Faith is not strong enough for that, we tell the story of the private Quarrel, and make it to proceed from thence, and it goes down well enough. I shall make your Reverence smile, when I tell you that more than one of the English Clergy are so careful of our Credit, that they have very industriously spread abroad the first of these Reports, as ridiculous and incredible as it is. The Design of Revenging ourselves upon the Faction, by burning the Rump, and thereby raising such a Tumult, as perhaps would have given us a happy opportunity of Great things, was unluckily prevented, but however, we are gainers by it, for we have upon that occasion had a handsome unexpected ground to get a Proclamation published, forbidding all Bonfires, whereby we have for the future hindered that detestable Insolence of burning his Holiness's Effigies, which gave so great Scandal to all the catholic World, and did so animate the furious heretics in England, most of which consist of the Trading part of the Nation, and therefore it must be our Eternal Maxim, To Ruin and Impoverish them. Now we cannot burn London again, but we have not failed to do what we can; No sufficient Guard has been sent abroad to hinder the Depradations of the Algerines, whereby we have revenged ourselves insensibly of a great number of our Enemies, and shall see more destroyed, if they madly presume to continue on their Trading. He was going on, when one of his Reverence's Pages came in, and said, that Monsieur Louvoy was just then entred, and desired to speak with Father Le cheese. Whereupon he said, That he hoped the Fathers would excuse his abrupt Departure, since not only the Quality of Monsieur Louvoy, but the vast business which lay upon him, would not suffer him to stay, and so took leave of them. Thus the Conference broken off, but I shall not fail to watch their next coming, and to give your Lordship a quick account of their Resolutions. In the mean time be pleased to interpret favourably the Diligence and Fidelity of, My Lord, Your Lordships most humble, and most obedient Servant. FINIS.