THE QUAKER disarmed, OR A TRUE RELATION Of a Late public DISPUTE HELD AT CAMBRIDGE By Three Eminent QUAKERS, against One Scholar of Cambridge. WITH A Letter in Defence of the MINISTRY, AND AGAINST LAY-PREACHERS. ALSO Several queries proposed to the Quakers to be answered if they can. LONDON, Printed by I. C. and are sold near the Little North-Door of S. Paul's Church. 1659. THE PREFACE BEfore I set down the particulars of this Dispute, it seems not amiss to premise (as an introduction to it) what passed between this Scholar and the forementioned George Whitehead before it. In May last this Scholar walking over the Palace Yard about his necessary occasions, chanced to see a great multitude of People over against Westminster Hall compassed with soldiers in red coats. Drawing near, he heard Whitehead preaching against Universities, Learning, and Tithes, and the Clergy; and asked some of the red-coates whether he might speak a word? They answered they could not tell. Whereupon he crowded up to Whitehead and asked him the same question, who said No, no. Another soldier that stood near him, said, hold thy tongue or I'll stop thy mouth. So the Scholar held his peace, till W. had done his railing, against the Priests. Then the People cried out with one voice, Let the Gentleman speak, let the Gentleman speak. Whereupon the Scholar stood up, and used such arguments in few words against W. (in answer to which, W. said nothing; but another Q. stood up and prayed) that all the People shouted. Notwithstanding which the Q. going on in his prayer, the people made an hideous shriek to disturb him. The Quakers all desired the S. to quiet them telling him they were his followers and Sons of Ishmael. At length the People (seeing that none of the Quakers would attempt to answer the scholar's argument, desired him to come away; lest the Q. should do him a mischief. So he left the Quakers, and with ●im came all the People, leaving a few soldiers and about a dozen Quakers at their exercise. The Day following, and several days after the S. went to seek the Quakers at the said house, but found none, and never yet heard that any of them met there since. But upon Aug. 25. 1659. the same S. having been all the Afternoon (from one a clock till four or five) in St. John's Coll. Library turning over Arabic and other MSS. returning home wearied his nearest way, unexpectedly saw the same Whitehead preaching in the Quakers common meetinghouse. So he went in, desired leave to speak: and (when Whitehead had done) confuted his Doctrine. Next day, considering how apt silly Women were to be led away captive by such deceivers, he sent this following Note to the Major of Cambridge, hoping in the conclusion to reclaim his Wife, who is a Quaker. Whereas George Whitehead preacher to the Quakers in Cambridge delivered in his Sermon among them Yesterday, 1. That they are not heretics, and 2. that they teach no other Doctrine but what Abraham and Christ taught; and 3. afterwards said, that the Scriptures are not the word of God. I am ready this Day (at any hour or place) to prove the forementioned Doctrines very false, and 2ly. to defend those 3 arguments that I urged against him yesterday, by showing that he neither did, nor can answer any thing to them: and 3ly. to prove by divers other arguments, that 'tis a damnable sin for him (or any such man) to preach, and a damnable sin for any man or woman to hear him. T. S. Chr. Coll. Aug. 25. 1659. Hereupon the Major sent for Whitehead, who (before him) wrote down these following positions; which he said he would defend against T. S. at what time, and place, the Major should appoint. 1. That we called Quakers do not open a door to damnable Heresies. 2. That we called Quakers are not heretics: because 3. We do not teach any Heresy, and 4. We walk not in the steps of heretics. 5. That the Bible is not the Word. These things I will defend against the contrary affirmations of T. S. George Whitehead. Then he caused these three positions to be writ saying, he would defend them also. 6. The Scriptures doth not say, If any man say he hath no sin he deceives himself. 7. I deny that this is truth [If any man say he hath no sin he deceives himself] as concerning the Saints. 8. 'Tis not a Damnable sin, for me or any such man to preach, and for any man or woman to hear us. On Saturday night Aug. 27. T. S. wondering that he heard nothing of the time and place of meeting, went to the Major to ask what was resolved, who answered, that the Aldermen were not willing it should be in the Town-Hall; So that if there were any Dispute at all, it must be in the Quakers common meeting house, but that several Aldermen were not willing there should be any Dispute, and that he himself would not advise T.S. to Dispute. Whereupon T. S. resolved not to dispute against the mind of the Corporation. Next day Aug. 29. between 12, and 1. a clock came this following Summons to T. S. from W. Friend, T. S. This is to certify thee, that according to our agreement when I was with thee, I am willing to give thee a meeting. And seeing that no other place is appointed, I intend to be at our meeting place (over against Sidney college-gate this day about the 1. or 2d. hour in the afternoon. Where I may expect thy appearance, according to thy promise to me, first to produce thy arguments, &c. Subscribed G. Whitehead. Cambridge this 29th. of the 6th month. 59 Superscribed for T. S. at that place called, &c. Immediately the same Person received another Summons from Mr. James Alders beginning thus. Sir, I was called this Morning to Mr. Major, and there I was told that 'tis the desire of the Quakers to meet you, at their house of meeting; they begin to think you are afraid to meet them, &c. Notwithstanding these T. S. continued in his Chamber, till a Messenger came from Mr. Alders to tell him, that the Quakers were met and reported that T. S. did not dare to come. Thereupon he went and found G. Fox preaching. Esteeming it not lawful to hear him, he left the room, but entered again, as soon as sermon was done. Then there was some debate where T. S. should stand, and because the Q. would suffer him to take no place but where he should be compassed with Quakers (as G. Whitehead was also) he stood where they appointed him. The Dispute. AS soon as T. S. had taken his place, G. W. made a long speech to tell the people the occasion of that dispute: and that the questions to be discussed were these. 1. Whether it were a Damnable sin for him to preach and 2. a Damnable sin for any to hear him. And charging T. S. with folly for saying that Whitehead was an heretic, and yet confessing that T. S. knew not all W's. Opinions. T. S. interposed only this, Mark the word all. I may truly say you hold heresies, if I know only some. When he had done. T. S. said thus Good people; you come not hither to hear sermons and speeches but a dispute. This man hath troubled you with a long discourse wherein he concludes that I must begin at the latter end; which of what consequence it is, all you that have skill in any trade or science know as well as I. I shall not trouble you with many words, but (in short) shall only entreat you to hear him again, I'll read to you his own paper. George Whitehead is this your hand or is it not. W. I acknowledge it my writing. S. I'll read his hand-writing, So T. S. read it (as, 'tis set down before) and then asked the people whether he should take the propositions in order as they were placed in Whiteheads paper or not. Who answering Yea Yea. He began thus. 1. That we called Quakers do not open a door to damnable Heresies. 2. That we called Quakers are not heretics. Against this your first position I dispute thus. He that writ this Book opens a door to damnable Heresies (holding forth a Printed Book in his hand, entitled Ishmael and his Mother cast out.) You writ this Book, therefore you open a door to damnable Heresies. Whitehead replied, I deny it. S. What do you deny? W. That you spoke last, I do not open a door to damnable Heresies. S. That is my conclusion: you should deny one of the Premises. Here S. gave him the Book to look on: and then asked him whether he were the Author of that Book or not? W. I did not write it all: for there is somewhat scribbled in it. S. True, here are some things writ on the backside: I'll charge You with nothing but what is printed. Were you the Author of all that is printed in this Book? Your Name is printed both in the beginning midst, and end of it. W. About three years ago I and four more writ it between us. S. I pray tell me plainly whether you'll own it or not. If you'll not own it all, then tell me what you will own, what not. Otherwise when I have proved it a most wicked book, you may disown it, and so all my discourse fall to the Ground. 'Tis no pleasure to me to speak, or this people to hear vain words. If you will not own it speak. But you may as well disowned to morrow all that you say to day (telling us that words are but wind) if you disown that which you have printed and affixed your name so oft unto. W. Well. I will own it, prove what thou canst. S. All Papists open a door to damnable heresies. You who writ this book are a Papist. Therefore you who writ this book open a door to damnable heresies. Fox, wispered (but loud enough) Mark the Major is universal. Whereupon some of the people cried, down with that black fellow that prompts behind, but S. said, no let them alone. What do you answer? W. I deny. I deny. S. What do you deny? Major or minor? W. That you spoke last. S. repeated the argument again and W. denied the conclusion. S. If you go on to deny my conclusions I shall do nothing but repeat my syllogisms: for my Syllogism proves my conclusion. W. Repeat it then. Here W. Allen a Quaker interposed and made a speech to tell the people that he did not like this way of disputing and bid T.S. dispute plainly without logic and syllogisms, and vain terms. S. Whitehead was the first that mentioned major and minor, and used a syllogism t'other day to prove Scripture was not the word of God Fox said that the Major was universal. It seems they both understand well enough what belongs to a syllogism. And I think I have not spoke a word which the meanest here doth not understand, and that this way of dispute is liked best by all: if not let them speak. People. 'tis very well, very well. We like this way of dispute best of all. S. My argument is this, All Papists open a door to damnable heresies, you who writ this book are a Papist, Therefore you who writ this book open a door to damnable heresies. Alderman Blackly. This S. doth nothing but say the same thing again and again. W. I am no Papist. S. You deny my minor: which I prove thus. He who refuseth to take the oath of abjuration is a Papist. He who writ this book refufuseth to take the oath of abjuration. Therefore he who writ this book is a papist. W. I deny all Popery. S. A Papist will say so too. I might charge you with many Popish Doctrines; but now I only ask whether you will take the oath of abjuration, or deny one of my propositions? F. Here Fox who had interposed several times before made a long discourse to prove that 'twas unlawful for a Christian to swear. S. did let him run on to the end, and let W. speak after him. Then asked whether any more of that party had aught else to say? all being silent T. S. replied. S. I came not hither to dispute with Fox or Allen; but since you are resolved to dispute three of you against one, I shall reply to you all (yea if there were three hundred, if you speak but one at once) Which of my propositions do you deny major or minor? For you must deny one unless you'll grant the conclusion that he is a Papist. F. Prove that 'tis lawful to swear. S. That is another question: which I'll prove at any seasonable time when ever you shall desire me: but this is no fit season; for we must now stick close to the questions before us. People. Yes do so. Do so. Here the major's wife entreated T. S. to lay aside Whiteheads book and dispute from Scripture. Well quoth he I will for a while: so he gave the book to her, and taking a Bible said. S. Turn to 2 Cor. 5.20. Where you have these words, Now than we are ambassadors for Christ. From which words I prove that 'tis an appropriate Ministry; proper to some only, not common to all: and therefore that every Christian man and woman is not an ambassador of Christ, as you G. W. told the people t'other day. I frame my argument thus. He who pretends to be an ambassador of Christ and hath no commission to show, but what all the damnable heretics in the world do or may show, that man opens a door to damnable heretics. But you pretend to be an ambassador of Christ and have no commission to show, but what all the damnable heretics in the world do or may show. Therefore you open a door to damnable heretics. W. I deny that, prove it. S. What do you deny? W. I deny that I open a door to damnable heresy. Here almost all the Company laughed, shouted, stamped and hissed. And the Quakers asked T. S. if he was not ashamed of his followers. He answered, That none of them were his followers; for he came alone, and brought not one with him: That it was their meetinghouse, and therefore more likely to be their followers. So after S. (at the Quakers request) had entreated the people to be quiet, he asked W. S. Do you profess yourself to be an ambassador of Christ, or do you not? W. Yea I do. S. Then that you may understand my argument the better (for I perceive you do not yet ken it) I'll illustrate it by a similitude. Suppose we being not at peace with Spain, twelve men should go hence to the King of that Nation, and tell him that they are all sent ambassadors to him from the Parliament of England. He asks them for their Commissions. One of them shows him his Commission in Parchment: and the other 11 tell him they have a Commission, but he must believe them on their words for they cannot show it. Every one of them exclaiming against this man who shows his Commission, and against the other for counterfeits: crying aloud, that he himself, and he alone is the true ambassador, though he have nothing to prove it by, more than the other ten false. In such a case would you not say that these 11 are Knaves? Answer. W. and F. and all the rest stood still and said not a word. S. If it be an heinous sin for any man to pretend a Commission from an earthly Prince or Parliament, when he hath none indeed to show, shall not his crime be incomparably more grievous, his condemnation unspeakably more dreadful, who pretends one from the King of Heaven when he hath none to show? W. I have a commission. S. Show it. Here W. Stood mute: and the people said he was wont to call the clergy Dumb Dogs; but now he was Dumb himself. S. Let us hear or see what your commission is. Distinguish that commission which you say you have from that which all the Damnable heretics in the World do or may produce for themselves. Here W. made a long speech to the people. To which S. replied, S. You have told us a long story, whereof I can make neither head nor foot. I am sure it concerns my argument no more than if you should tell us, they are now selling apples upon the Market-hill. Tell us, or show us what is your commission. W. I have my commission from Christ. S. I do not well hear what you say; but I think you told us of another commission the other day from that which you speak of now. W. I told you then, that I had it from the power of God, and now that I had it from Christ. S. They differ. For Moses had his commission from the power of God, yet had it not from Christ: who gave no commission to any before the Twelve Apostles. Fox. Christ and the Power of God are all one. S. Well, we will not discuss any impertinent questions. Whether they be one or not, you do not answer my argument. 'Tis this. He who pretends to be an ambassador of Christ, and hath no commission to show, but only a talk that he is sent from Christ; he hath none to show but what damnable heretics do or may show. But you pretend to be an ambassador of Christ, and have no, &c. W. Did ever any heretic pretend a commission from Christ? S. Yes Dav. George, Socinus, Arius, and all the heretics I ever read of. W. They could not prove it by the effects as I can; that is, show the people that were converted by them. S. Yes they could. Arians converted a nation of Infidels to Christianity (which is more than you pretend to) and his opinions spread so far among them who before his time were Orthodox, that in short time 'twas said, All the world seemed Arian. W. But did the heretics live good lives? S. 'Tis confessed by all the Ancients that Arius and his Followers did, by St. Austin that Pelagius did: and I remember no Sect-Master that did not. If you have no commission to show but this, you see that all damnable heretics do or may show the same: and so my conclusion remains firm, That you open a door to damnable Heresy. W. No. I have proved my commission sufficiently, and you have brought nothing against it. S. Let the people judge of that. You and I come not hither to be judges in our own cause. W. You should prove me an heretic: which you do not go about to do. S. I shall do that when I come at it. 'Tis the second question. We are not yet come so far; we are yet but at the door of your house. I am proving that you open a door to let in heretics. A man may, open the door of his house to let them in, and be none himself. W. I'll prove that I am none myself, and that from Scripture. S. You come hither to answer, and not to oppose; but since (contrary to the rules of dispute) you resolve to do both at once, I'll give you leave; come let us hear your argument. W. 'Tis taken out of 2 Pet. 2.1, 2. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false Teachers among you; who privily shall bring in damnable Heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. S. (Mark destruction and damnable twice applied to heresy in one Verse) W. And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of Truth shall be evil spoken of. Hence I prove that I am no heretic. Observe here, heretics are those who deny the Lord that bought them; I do not deny the Lord that bought me; Therefore I am no heretic. S. I deny your major. All heretics do not deny the Lord that bought them. The Apostle there instances in one sort of false Teachers, the worst, who would even deny the Lord. Observe the word even: here is a special brand put upon them. It follows not hence that none are false prophets, none false teachers, or (as you would have it) none heretics, but those who do deny the Lord that bought them. Prove that. Prove your Major. W. I have Christ within me; and therefore I do not deny the Lord that bought me. S. You do not prove your major. I believe you do not understand my answer, I'll explain it. Suppose a man lying here sick unto death, will you prove that he is not sick at all, because he hath no plague-sore upon him, or hath no consumption: Because he hath not this or that, or a third disease, therefore hath he none. There be many sorts of heretics (the Apostle here mentions damnable Heresies in the plural) as there be of diseased persons. Some deny the Lord that bought them, others not. Till not follow, that because you are not of one sort of these, therefore you be not of the other. Prove your major if you can; if not, give me leave to argue against you from this very Text. Whitehead, Fox, and all the rest here stood silent. S. Well, beloved, from this very text that he hath brought to prove he is no heretic, I will demonstrate (which I am sorry that I must do, but you see he thrusts me upon it) that this man is the most damnable heretic that ever was in the world; and that since this Epistle was first writ 'twas never so literally and plainly fulfilled in any person as in him this day. [Here the people fetched a deep sigh.] Hear the words again, the two first Verses. There were false prophets also, &c. I begin my Argument from those very words you inlisted on, even denying the Lord that bought them, the worst of heretics. He that writ this book [Ishmael, &c.] even denies the Lord that bought him. You writ this book. Therefore you even deny the Lord that bought you. W. I deny the major. S. I'll read a few lines of it, and then prove my major; you write this against Mr. Townsend Minister of Norwich. In your second page are these words, Christopher Atkinson, James Lancaster, George Whitehead, and Tho. Simonds now in Norwich Goal for their errors and miscarriages— Thee Priest Townsend— thou Dreamer— thou Deceiver— Witch— O thou blind Guide, thou enemy of God— without Christ and his knowledge, and in Antichrist. W, Is the word Witch there? S. Thou wouldst bewitch the people with thy lies, p. 3. After these and many more such good words, he comes p. 10. to speak against the B. Trinity, and hath this passage, p. 10. The Three Persons thou dreamest of (speaking to Mr. T.) which thou wouldest divide out of one, like a conjurer, are all denied, and thou shut up with them in perpetual darkness for the lake and the pit. Here the multitude held up their hands and cried God bless us! S. See here he saith that he who asserts the three Persons in the ever blessed Trinity is a dreamer and a conjurer, and that that man shall be damned with that Trinity. Fox. We do not deny God therefore we are no heretics. Atheists deny God, therefore they are heretics. S. This man will be opponent again. Atheists are no heretics. F. Are not Atheists heretics. S. No. Atheists are worse than heretics; but they are not heretics. From these words in Whiteheads book now read, I argue thus, He who denies the three persons in the B. Trinity, and calls him dreamer and conjurer who asserts them, saying that a man who saith there be three persons in the Trinity, shall be shut up with them in perpetual darkness for the lake and the pit, that man is an heretic even denying the Lord that bought him. But you G. Whitehead deny the three persons in the blessed Trinity, &c. Fox Here made very long discourse against the Trinity. S. Beloved you see I let him speak all he can say, I do not disturb them in their speaking as they do me, I am willing to hear him or any of them, speak all they can for themselves, but I confess it grieves me to hear them speak against the B. Trinity, and I had far rather hear them talk of somewhat else then make declamations against Almighty God. I answer, That nothing of this your speech is to the purpose. What do you answer to the argument? I repeat it again. He who denies, &c. Fox run on in another discourse against the three persons. S. I came not hither to hear you to repeat a deal of stuff out of Paul Beast [who writ against the Trinity.] I came hither to dispute. If you'll answer my argument, do. If not, say you cannot. F. Prove that there be three persons. S. I will. F. But prove it out of Scripture. S. I will so (1 John 5.7.) There be three that bare record in Heaven; the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one. F. Prove that there be three Persons. S. I will. Allen. Prove them to be three Persons plainly without logical terms and vain Philosophy, that we may all understand thee. S. I will, if the Father, Son, and H. Ghost, be three he's, than they are three Persons; but they are three hees. F. What do you mean by three he's? S. Three things that may be pointed at, he, and he, and he. F. I do not like that argument. S. I would fain give you an argument that you should like, are you three Persons who dispute against me this day, or are you not? F. Yea we are three Persons 'tis plain. S. Give me now any argument that pleaseth you to prove it; and by the very same argument I'll prove that there be three Persons in the B. Trinity. F. We are in three places and therefore three Persons. S. The Father, Son, and H. Ghost, have been in three places, and therefore are three Persons. At the baptism of Christ while Jesus came up, the H. Ghost came down; in the same moment, one ascended out of the water, the other descended to the water, Matt. 3.16, 17. And Jesus when he was baptised, went up straightway out of the water; and lo the Heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the H. Spirit of God descending like a Dove and lighting upon him. And lo a voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. In this verse is mention of God the Father in heaven, God the Son coming out of the water, and the H. Ghost descending on this side Heaven like a Dove. F. Prove there were three persons. S. I do it thus, If Christ was coming up out of the water while the H. Ghost was coming down to the water, than they were in several places, but Christ was coming up out of the waters, while the H. Ghost was coming down to the water. Therefore they were in several places. F. They have not flesh and bones as we have. S. What then? I did not promise to prove them to be men, or you to be Angels or Gods; but them to be Persons: like you only in personality. F. Persons have flesh and blood as you see we have. S. I prove that all Persons have not flesh and blood. If God should send this day three Angels from Heaven to prove the truth of Christian Religion against you, who deny it; and one of them should stand at one end of your meeting house, another at the other end, and a third in the midst preaching. Would you not say that these three Angels were three Persons? Yet they have not flesh and blood. Speak, would you say they are three Persons, or would you not; All stood mute, at length one of them said that Angels are not Persons. S. Till me what you mean by a person and I'll prove that Angels are persons. F. A person is a subsistence, We three are three different susistences. S. So are the Father, Son, and H. Ghost, if they were in different places, they must needs be different subsistences. You see my argument stands firm, notwithstanding your objection I pass to another argument. He who denies the Bible to be the word of God, saying that to assert Scripture to be the word of God, is one of the deceitful imaginations which the Priests of this generation have deceived the People with; that man is an heretic; but you deny the Bible to be the word, and tell Mr. Townsend that to assert it, is one of the deceitful imaginations which the Priests of this generation have deceived the People with; Therefore you are an heretic, see here your own book, p. 1. lin. 1. In stead of answering this argument about the word of God, they started back to the former about the trinity: and Fox said F. They cannot be three Persons because they were not visible in several places, I can see that man, and he can see the other. S. If Christ was man, and the H. Ghost was in the form of a Dove, than they were both seen. F. Prove that they were seen in several places. S. Christ was seen when the H. Ghost was not seen: therefore they both were seen in several places, one in the water, the other out of it. F. Prove that they were seen. S. If many beheld them both, and this their seeing was upon record (we saw, and they who see it bare record, and we know that our record is true) than they were seen. But many beheld them at once; and this their sight was upon record. F. The H. Ghost could not be seen. S. If he was in the form of a Dove, than he could be seen: but he was in the form of a Dove. F. Not in the form of a Dove, but he was in the likeness of a Dove. Whereat some laughing, he answered again that he was seen, but not visible. S. Then he was visible and invisible. F. Yea. S. Then contradictions may be true at once, than you may be a Quaker and no Quaker, a Papist and no Papist, an heretic and no heretic. Hereupon Alderman Blackly who is a Quaker said to T. S. I think 'tis time now to leave off. S. I think so too: when he saith contradictions may be true at once. F. I pray take notice all of you that this Book [Ishmael and his Mother cast out] about which so much stir hath been, was not writ by me but by this man, pointing at G. Whitehead. S. True, but you defended it, I came to dispute him, if I had known of your disputing I would have brought one of Your Books. THE END. A Letter sent to Mr. E. of Taft four miles from Cambridge a Year since, to which no answer hath been returned. Sir, § 1. SInce you had not so much patience as to hear me tother day, nor would suffer your daughters to tarry, I now make use of my first hour of leisure to write to you part of that which you might have heard me speak then: Hoping that you and they (whom I look on as having more breeding than any other his Auditors that I saw) will not believe him, whom his friends generally call the Tinker, upon his bare word; but like those noble Bereans, Acts 17.11. with readiness of mind search the Scripture whether those things were so. 2. I guess at the breeding of most of his followers by this passage; One of the chief of them, viz. Daniel Angier (who invites him to that Town, entertains him in his house, lends him his Barn for a meeting place) when I charged him in that place with maintaining that God was a body, (viz. that he had hands, feet, a face, &c. like one of us) saying that he contradicted me in my Churchyard, after I had preached the contrary from John 4.24. he told me plainly before all the people, when he saw his ringleader T. would not defend it, that I lied; whereas my whole Parish are ready to witness the truth of what I said. 3. But to the purpose, I shall in this paper follow that method which the T. commanded me (though I desired the contrary) showing first his false doctrine, and then prove 'tis a dangerous sin in him to preach (as he did publicly, and in the people to hear him. 4. He said in his Sermon that God would lay before us at the day of judgement 4 books, viz. the book of his remembrance, 2. the book of the creatures, 3. the book of the Law of Moses, 4. the book of the Gospel. By the book of the creatures, he said, he meant this or that cup of bear, or pot of wine whereby a man is drunk, the timber in the wall, &c. 5. I answer, that 'tis impossible God should set these (this book) before us at the day of Judgement, because the Scripture saith, 2. Pet. 3.10. that the earth, and the works therein shall be burnt up. If all these shall be burnt up, how shall they be laid before us, pots and cups, &c. Had he said that the Conscience should represent these things unto us, he had spoken sense, but he made the conscience a witness at that bar, and not a book. 6. When I told him that Christians should not be judged at that day by the book of the creatures, but the Gospel; he answered that he did not take his Auditory to be Christians, but unbelievers, and in his Sermon I heard him utter these words, I know that the most of you are unbelievers. 7. Formerly I have wondered that most of his followers were sad melancholy persons, not looking nor behaving themselves like other folk; hereafter I shall never wonder, if I see or hear they are mad: for such speeches as these are dreadful and very uncharitable; tending to no other end, but to make good people run out of their wits, if they have not more than to believe him. For I pray consider that an unbeliever is an Infidel, that is, either a Jew, or a Turk, or a Pagan or an Atheist: persons who shall be damned as sure as that God is true, Mar. 16.16. with whom 'tis unlawful for any Christian to marry, 2 Cor. 6.14. Now if this famous preacher should descend to particulars, come to you and your three children, and say to each singly, Thou art a Jew, and thou a Turk, thou an Atheist, and thou a Pagan, I am confident you would be ready not only to say, but (if urged) to swear that he did you a world of wrong. And you cannot but think the rest of the company in that Barn as ready to profess the same as you. 8. But suppose most of them had been unbelievers, yet 'tis impossible that he being a stranger, and having never seen half those faces before could know it. For nothing can be the object of any man's knowledge, but that which is as certain as any thing can be. 9 S. Paul calls those Saints, and beloved of God, to whom he wrote, he never called them unbelievers, though some of them were as bad as any of the people in your barn. See Rom. 1.7. 1 Cor. 1.2. 2 Cor. 1.1. Ephes. 1.1. Phil. 1.1. Col. 1.2. 10. And (as I told him) all the Protestants beyond the seas call their Auditors in their Sermons, Fideles, that is believers: and he is the first man that ever I read or heard of, who preached among a company of people who were all baptised and professed Christianity, and yet called them unbelievers or infidels. Entreat him from me to consider that of our Saviour, Matt. 7.1. Judge not, that ye be not judged; or that of St. Paul which was the first place I urged against him, 1 Cor. 13.1. Though I speak, with the tongue of men, and of Angels, and have not charity, I am as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 11. I asked him what Scripture or reason he had to prove that Christians are to be judged at the great day, not only by the gospel, but also the Law. He cited Iam. 2.12. and said, that the law of Moses, was there called, the Law of Liberty. I beseech you consult the place, and judge, you'll find that not the Law, but the gospel is there meant, quite contrary to this man's purpose, which I would prove by the context, if I thought it worth the while. This same Law is called the perfect Law Iam. 1.25. Now the Law of Moses is never termed the perfect Law in the New Testament, for it could not make the comers thereunto perfect, Heb. 10.1. But the gospel is termed Liberty, Gal. 5.1.13. Stand fast in the Liberty, &c. You have been called unto liberty. By which name the Law is nowhere called in all the holy Scripture. For the more ample confutation of this his Doctrine and exposition I pray read Gall. 4. from the 19th. verse to the end of that chapter. 12. These and several other strange passages in that little of his Sermon that I heard (with confuting whereof I shall not trouble you now, because my leisure is not much, and I intend this paper chiefly to a better purpose) made me sadly think on that place of St. Peter (at the end of his 2d. Epistle) that there be some things in St. Paul's Epistles hard to be understood, which they that be unlearned, and unstable wrest, as they do other Scriptures to their own destruction. 13. One of those hard places I take the tinker's Text to be, 1 Thes. 4.16. which I did not know to be his Text till next day: otherwise I should have told him that his sermon (as far as I could hear myself, or gather by others) did not come any nearer to that Text then to those words, Abraham begat Isaac. 14. Before I leave him let me mind you of two passages which he used to me several times, and leave you to judge, whether he who spoke those words often in that auditory can be a good Christian, or a man in his right wits. First, he called me frequently fool, and giddy pated fellow, &c. Concerning which, see Matt. 5.22. whosoever shall say to his Brother Racha ('tis a Syriack word signifying giddy-pate) shall be in danger of the council and whosoever shall say thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 15. Hear what St. James saith, 1.26. If any man among you (though he be a wandering preaching. Tinker, for you must give me leave to call him so, till I know what other name he hath) seem to be religious and bridle not his tongue, that man's religion is vain. I shall not take upon me to censure him. I told him that I had not called him any such name, nor did I think it fit, but I'll entreat him to consider what St. Jude saith 9.10. that when Michael the archangel disputed with the devil about the body of Moses he durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. So that if he had been an archangel, and I a devil, he should not have used me (when he had nothing to answer) as he did. Michael durst not— See what follows. These speak civiil of those things which they know not, but what they know naturally, as br●●● beasts in those things they corrupt themselves. 16. This minds me of his 2d. passage which I before hinted, viz. his sayin● several times that logic was hell bred and came from hell. A way (quoth he) to Oxford with your hell bred logic. Either this man knows what logic is or he knows not: if he knows not what it is, and rails against it, he incurre● St. jude's censure speaking evil of those things which he knows not, &c. And I must, entreat him to remember the sad words of 2 Pet. 2.12. That those who as natural bruit beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of those things which they understand not, shall utterly perish in their own corruption, and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness. If he know what logic is, than he knows 'tis a Greek word which signifies rational, Rom. 12, 1, or rather the right way of arguing, which he reproved me for not knowing, in his first words to me. Now to blame me for not knowing how to argue; and at the same time (almost in the same breath) to blame me for discoursing Logically, that is (if he understand himself) for knowing how to argue, is to speak contradictions. And he that will do so and defend it, is no fit man to be a Preacher, nor to talk with any rational man, much less to be followed by any wise person. 17. And I pray ask any man in the world that knows what logic is, whether it doth not put a difference between a man, and a beast: which proposition I affirmed and he several times denied but would not let me prove it. He saying 'twas sin that put the difference, whereas nothing but sin can turn him, (who in one of his books, saith, if you would go to Christ, go as filthy as you can) or any other man into a beast. 18. I shall leave his logic, when I have told you, that I am ready to prove, whensoever you desire me, that Christ used logic in every discourse in the gospel, and the Apostles in every Epistle; and that without logic 'tis impossible for any man to understand, much less to interpret, either the Epistles, or gospels. 19 Thus much briefly concerning the 't's errors published in the barn t'other day, I could name more (for he delivered much falsity in those few words that I heard) but I hope this will suffice to let you see clearly, he is not such a true Preacher as you have lately took him to be. For sure if you had not took him to be excellent, you would not have stood up in the barn several times to defend him, and rebuke me, who offered not to speak a word till all where coming out. And if you had not done so, but would have had half the patience to have heard me as you had for the Tinker, I would not have troubled you with this paper. Without which (as the case stands) I know not how to perform that promise which you forced me to make before them all of satisfying you some other time▪ 20. And now I proceed to the 2d. general head which I promised to prove viz. That 'tis a dangerous sin in him to preach, as he did, and in the people, to hear him. I argued to him thus; To do that which God strictly forbids all holy men both under the Old and New Testament, is to commit a dangerous sins. But to preach publicly as he did being not ordained, is to do that which God ●rictly forbids all holy men both under the Old and New Testament, Therefore the doing it is to commit a dangerous sin. 21. For the Old Testament, I proved that all God's people who were not ordained or consecrated to be Priests, were forbid to meddle with any sacerdotal Office, Num. 18.22, 23. Ex. 28.1. And as by these two places so by two examples of God's dreadful judgement upon Uzza and Vzzia, who offended against this Law. Vzzia though he were a King (and so you'll say might take more upon him then any Subject) was withstood by the Priests, and forbid to burn incense before the Lord. while the censure was in his hand, the Leprosy arose in his forehead, and continued there, as a brand upon him, as long as he had a day to live, 2 Chron. 26.16. Etc Uzza did but put forth his hand, to take hold of the Ark, to stay it from falling, while the Oxen shook it, and presently the anger of the Lord was kindled against him, and God smote him dead upon the place, 2 Sam 6.6, 7. To which add the judgements that fell upon Cora and his company, who for offering incense were swallowed up alive by the earth, Num. 16.3.39, 40 Upon Jeroboam and his family, who for setting up Priests of the meanest of the▪ People, who were not of the sons of Levi, 1 Kin. 12.13. Had those fearful curses denounced against them, c. 14.10. I will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man takes away dung till it be all gone Him that dies of Jeroboam in the City shall the Dogs eat, and him that dies in the Field shall the fouls of the Air eat, for the Lord hath spoken it▪ 22. For the new Testament I urged Heb. 5.4. No man takes this office to himself, unless called of God as was Aaron. For there be Evangelical Priests and Altars, as well Legal, which appears, Heb. 12.10. And in many other places of that Epistle. Christ was faithful in all his house, as was Aaron, Heb. 3.2. And if he was so faithful in his house, that is the Church, than he appointed some to Minister, as well as Aaron did. As Aaron made Legal Priests, so Christ Evangelical Ministers. As Aaron had an Altar, circumcision, and the passover, so Christ, the Lord's Table, baptism, and the Eucharist. 23. When he ascended he gave some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors and Teachers, for the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the Ministry, &c. Till we all come in the unity of the faith; that is, till the end of the World. He gave some Pastors, therefore not all. Every man may not take upon him to be a Pastor, nor a Prophet, because Christ appointed only some, Eph. 4.11. 24. Nor is there any thing more Evident in all the Book of God, than that there ought to be a distinction of shepherds and flocks, Learners and Teachers, some that are charged with the cure of Souls, others that are charged to attend and obey, Heb. 13.17. Some that are separated from the affairs of this life, that they may give themselves wholly to reading, 1 Tim. 4.5. to exhortation to Doctrine, and therefore are to be partakers of other men's temporals, that others may be partakers of their spirituals: Others to plow, and sow, and harrow the ground, and use other lawful trades, working with, their hands the thing that is good, that they may have to give to him that needeth. 25. I beseech you to lay aside passion, and consider some day when you retir● from your worldly affairs, whether it be possible, that that power which at fo●● several times, upon four several occasions, our Blessed Saviour did mentio● and give to the Apostles, could expire with their persons. Some things o● great concernment he mentions but once in all the Scripture (as upon wha● heads chiefly we shall be examined at the day of judgement and the speech tha● he will then make Mat. 25.34.) And when he who was the wisdom of the Father, names a thing not only four times, but upon four notable occasions, can you imagine that matter a trifle, and intended only for some very few years? The thing which I mean, is the power not only of preaching the gospel, and administering the Sacraments, but also of remitting, and retaining sins, which was mentioned by Christ. 1. Upon occasion of St. Peter's confessing him, promising, and foretelling that he would enstate it upon the Apostles Matt. 16.19. 2ly. Upon occasion of exemplifying that necessary truth, that the chief end of Christ's coming into the World was to save that which was lost, Matt. 18.11. He speaks of the institution of this power as evidently instrumental to that design, 3ly. Immediately before his final departure out of this World, he enstated them initially in this ghostly power Ioh. 20.21.22. with significant ceremonies and important circumstances, saying, As, my Father hath sent me, so send I you. He breathed on them and said, receive the H. Ghost. Lastly immediately after his ascension, sending the great promise of his Father, Luk. 24.49. 'tis absurd to think that this power thus insisted on by Christ, thus given to the Apostles, was to expire with their persons; especially considering that at his bestowing it on them, He promised to be with them, to the end of the World, Matt. 28.20. 26. I hope you'll not wonder I mention this power which our Saviour gave his Ministers of remitting and retaining sins; when I believe this very Tinker arrogates it to himself, as well as the power to preach. For in the midst of our forementioned dispute about his false doctrines, he breaking out into very many impertinent di●erting questions (as asking me when I was converted? what were the signs?) at length he demanded what were the particular sins which I confessed to Almighty God when I last received the body and blood of Jesus Christ? As if I were bound to confess my private sins, not only to him (when, as I told him, God hath not made you my confessor) but also to the meanest of all the vulgar in the Country. 27. But to proceed. The Apostle asks Rom. 10.15. how shall they preach unless they be sent? He puts the question, as if he should say, what man in his wits can think it lawful? who that hath read one leaf either of the law or gospel? 28. Considering the examples not only of Uzza, and Vzzia, under the Old Testament, but in the New of Mathias: who had been as well as any man else, a witness of the Doctrine, and life, and miracles, of our B. Saviour, yet was not by any thought fit to be termed an Apostle till he had a special call to that office Act, 1.23. 29. 2ly. Considering that Joseph surnamed Barsabas, was a witness to all this as well as Mathias, yet never exercised the Apostleship (though it seems the Church of Christ esteemed him fit for it) because he was not ordained thereto; ●nymore than many others who where educated in the school of Christ as well ●s the best. 30. 3ly. Considering that the most Blessed Jesus himself, the only begotten son of God, often professed that he came not without being sent Io. 17.8.18. Nor preached any thing, but what he heard, nor did any thing, but what he was commanded: and this in a time when there was confessedly very great necessity of Reformation. And then with what face (other then brazen) can any man now justify the doing these things of himself, who neither pretends that he is the Son of God, nor yet that he seeth such a necessity of Reformation. 31. Lastly considering that not only those Christians who lived nearest the times of our Saviour (who probably might know more of his institution than 'tis possible we at this distance should) but all succeeding ages for 1600 Years have had a Clergy and a discipline; Certainly, Sir, we have sins as great as any of them, the old sins to mortify (I heartily wish to God we had no new ones too, then unheard of) and therefore certainly we stand in as much need of Physicians as any of them did; of all the blessed remedies and wholesome medicines against them, which our good God hath appointed. 32. I might add many other places of Scripture, as 2. Cor. 5.19. God hath reconciled us to himself by Christ Jesus and given to us the ministry of reconciliation. Now than we are ambassadors for Christ. Wherein I entreat you to Observe that he saith, committed to us the ministry of reconciliation, here than is an appropriate Ministry not common to all the vulgar. We are ambassadors. 'tis limited to some few by virtue of a commission. All cannot be ambassadors The Church is a body, and all cannot be ears, or eyes, 1. Cor. 12.14.15.16. 33. But I must not omit the answer which your friend made to, Rom. 10.15. he said he was sent by the Church of Christ at Bedford. To which I replied. 1. That, that which he called the Church of Christ at Bedford, could not send him, or give him power to preach, &c. Because nothing can give that which itself hath not. That Church consisting only of women and a few laymen is not in indeed a Church of Christ; none of them hath power to preach or administer the Sacraments, and therefore none of them can give the Tinker power to preach and administer the Sacraments. 34. 2. The Church of Antioch was in all probability very numerous in those days when miracles were ordinary, and three thousand were converted in one place at one sermon: and yet in all the Scripture you shall not find by any word, the least sign that those many people who were thus converted at Antioch did join together in Church-duties and ordinances (as the Lord's supper, which the primitive and best Christians received every day Act. 2.42.46. and the people of your Town have not desired, as I hear, these fourteen years) until Barnabas and Paul had been with them. When these two who were ordained Ministers of the word came unto them, then (and not till then) were the Christians at Antioch termed a Church. Act. 11. from. the 20th. verse to the 27th. 35 I confess 'tis both lawful and laudable for private Christians to endeavour the conversion of any that be indeed Infidels or Unbelievers to the truth of the Gospel, or to teach children or servants the catechism, &c. (and if this Tink●● had done no more, stayed at Bedford, and taught his Family the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles Creed, the Ten Commandments, and the Doctrine of the Sacraments, which things few of his followers in these parts can endure to hear of: or if he had followed S. Paul's advice, 1 Thes. 4.11. studied to be quiet, and done his own business, I should have nothing to have said against him) 'Tis lawful for private Christians to do what they can to convert Jews, or Turks, or Heathens, or Atheists, that is, to prepare stones for the building of the Church (as the ancient Ecclesiastical stories tell us that Frumentius and AEdesius did in India, and the captive maid in Iberia) but after they be converted, after they are baptised, to unite these together and make up a building, to assemble them in an Ecclesiastical body, to usurp the Pulpit and that power which our Saviour distributed, when he said All power is given to me both in Heaven and Earth, go ye therefore and preach: This is such a piece of presumption as we read not in the Acts of the Apostles (nor in any other Ecclesiastical story that I have seen) that any of the primitive Christians were ever guilty of. But all this your T. hath been guilty of, and much more. For he hath not only intruded into the Pulpits in these parts, and caused the people of your Town to hate their lawful Minister, [Mr. John Ellis sen.] but (as he told me) encouraged them to proceed so far as to cudgel him, and break open the Church doors by violence. I wonder what example or precept in the Scripture he hath for this. When he hath read Tit. 3.2. I desire him to see his doom, 1 Pet. 4.15. where {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}, (that is one that thrusts himself in to preach in another man's parish against his consent) is reckoned by the H. Ghost among no honester men than a Thief and a Murderer. This will be a sad Text for him, when the books shall be opened before him at the great Judgement day. 36. And here I give you under my hand what I professed to the 't's face, that if I could see any reason to draw me out of the true ancient Catholic and Apostolic Church into which I was baptised (whereof the Church of England is the soundest part, as I am ready to make appear against the Papists, and all other new and old schismatics and heretics their Confederates) If I say, I could see any reason to draw me out of that Church into your schism, who encourage the Tinker to preach, I see not what should stop me from running into the worst Sect in the world; from being an Anabaptist, or Ranter, or Quaker, or Antiscripturist, or what not. 37 Give me leave to tell you a story, (you gave the Tinker leave to tell you several of things done at Bedford) 'tis out of S. Augustine's Notes on John 1.2, 3. All things were made by him. S. Austin saith, that a Manichee & another being troubled with Flies, and disputing, one of them said, he thought that our good God could not be the Creator of such troublesome Insects. Why then replied the other, who made the Bee which is somewhat bigger, and hath a sting? He yielded that the Devil made it. From a Bee they proceeded to a Locust, from a Locust to a Lizard, so to a Bird, to a Sheep, to an ox, to an Elephant, to a Man. And thus was the silly man deluded into a persuasion that he himself was not God's Creature. Just such a dreadful Conclusion do most of these people make, who think it lawful for a Tinker, (or a man not ordained) to preach, are they not ready to pull down the Church walls to mend the High ways? (you know who desired it.) To take the Bells out of the Steeple, and carry them in Butter-panniers to London, and sell them, (you know who did it.) Do they not cry that Sacraments are needless, mere empty Ceremonies? Preaching Foolishness? Paul and Barnabas, the sons of the Prophets, babblers? Are they not ready to cry down Faith for a fancy? All clergymen as Limbs of Antichrist? Devotion as an emasculating trick of Machiavel. In a word if these men may prevail, down go Presbyters as well as Bishops, Universities, Schools, Hospitals, All thoughts of God, All Reverence to his Word, and all that is Holy. And instead of these, in rusheth Carneades' Philosophy, that gain is Godliness: and then the poorest hireling in the Town will soon have as much land as you, or your Heir. For men will turn from being an orderly commonwealth to be a Community of Bears tigers, to delight in tearing and devouring each other; from living in civil conversation, they come to join hands in that grand piracy, wherein the stronger swallow up the weaker, upon no other pretence of right or reason imaginable, but because they are the stronger: saying with the Atheists, Wisd. 2. 1●. Our strength is in the law of justice, and that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 41. But I see this paper swells above the ordinary extent of a letter and therefore I shall draw to a conclusion, when I have spoke to one particular, which is the common talk of this County, viz. That one of your daughters being troubled in mind you sent for this Tinker to quiet her conscience. 42. Sr. I know you are a man of so much prudence, that if her or your temporal life were shaken with a palsy, or the title to a parcel of your visible estate questioned by some potent-man; you would not think it enough to employ a cheap attorney or an ordinary Agent, or send for some country dame to administer her kitchen physic, but the ablest counsellors and the skilfullest Doctors should be posted to, and exceeding much wariness and diligent attendances made use of: and all thought little enough. For truly a man's life and health, and sometimes his estate is worth all this: and in some cases it needs it all. But then, I beseech you, do you believe your immortal soul (for which Jesus laid down his precious blood) the only trifle and toy about you? Are there not a thousand dangers, and a million of difficulties and innumerable possibilities of miscarriage? And how then comes it to pass that you think a Tinker or mean ignorant person can serve here? If a man or woman, be sick saith St. James 5.14. let him send for the Presbyters of the Church and let them pray over him. 'Tis needful certainly to have such guides (St. James knew which were best) to steer the vessel when a stormy passion or a violent imagination (despair or presumption) transport a man, to awaken his reason, and quicken his devotion. 43. And truly considering how like beasts of the heard, men, both of high and low degree do live in this age, 'tis but reason that there should be a deal of retirement and initiation, industry and instruction to educate such a person, to tame the beast within him, to subjucate his lower soul, to enlighten his natural and ●ctuate his spiritual powers, to clear his eyesight that he may have a plain prospect of those gaities which the worldling dotes on, and a true sense of the realities above to instruct his understanding and judgement that he may be able to resolve the many abstruse and intricate cases of conscience, to confute the infinit● company of impudent heretics and gainsayers (which St. Paul notwithstandin● your anger looks upon as the preachers duty Tit. 1.9.) to prepare him for so high and difficult an employment. 44. I would now use some arguments drawn from reason and common sense to prove 'tis unlawful for this Tinker to preach; but supposing that you believe Scriptures to be the word of God, I think such arguments needless. 45. Remember that he who commits jeroboam's sin, doth justly incur jeroboam's punishment, and to hear such a person as Jeroboam set up, is to commit jeroboam's sin: For if such men had no hearers, no applauders, they would soon lay preaching aside; To hear him then is to partake of his sin, which the Apostle bids us beware of Rev. 18.4. Eph. 5.7. Besides, he that hears such throws his Soul unnecessarily upon temptations and out of the promise of God's blessings, for no blessing is promised to any, but while he is doing that which God commands: now he commands us to hear our shepherds Io. 10.1. to hear Moses and the Prophets, Matt. 16.31. and those that sit in Moses chair, Matt. 23.3. But never commanded us to hear the lowest of the people, or men not ordained. To this I might add that the flock must be under an oversight. Act. 18. 23.-20.28. 1 Pet. 5.2. 1 Thes. 5.12. Heb. 13.17.24. A man's own pastor hath a more special dispensation of the grace of God, Eph. 3.2. and a pastors more especial tye to his flock than another, argues that they are more especially tied to him. He is appointed to feed them; they therefore to hear him. 46. I shall commend you to the work of God's grace when I have entreated you to consider the words of our Saviour, John. 10.5. the sheep of Christ will not hear the voice of a stranger, but will fly from him. The sheep here, are those who shall stand at the right hand of Jesus in the day of judgement, Mat. 25.33. (as the T. confessed when I urged this text against him) And that by a stranger is meant an intruder into the sacerdotal office appears by comparing this place with, Num. 16. 40-1.51-3.10-18.7. And with other texts where this word is interpreted to be one that is not a Levite one not ordained by imposition of hands as the Preachers were, not only in the first and best times of Christianity, 1. Tim. 4 15-5. 22-2.22-3.10.6.13.14. 2. Tim. 1.6. Tit. 1.5. but also ever since, in all places all ages till this. 47 And now, Sir let me beseech you for God's sake, for Christ's sake, for his church's sake, for your reputation sake, for your children's sake, for your countries sake, for your own immortal soul's sake, to consider these things sadly and seriously: not to think a Tinker more infallible than the pu●● spouse of Christ, the Church of all ages mentioned in your creed, but to search the Scriptures 〈◊〉 Canon whereof you receive merely upon the authority of that Church and to foresee what will be 〈◊〉 sad consequence both to the souls and bodies and estates of you and your children in following 〈◊〉 strangers, Entreating you to peruse also this enclosed printed paper against Lay-preachers, I bes●●● the Lord to give you and yours understanding in all things: remaining. Your faithful Servan● in Christ Jesus, Caucat. May.