Some Drops of the Vial, poured OUT IN A SEASON, WHEN IT IS Neither Night nor Day: OR, Some Discoveries of jesus Christ His Glory in several BOOKS; viz. 1. The New Quaere. 2. The Opening of the Vindication. 3. The Smoke in the Temple. 4. The Groans for liberty. 5. The Divine Right of Presbytery discussed. 6. An End of One Controversy. 7. Reasons for Unity, Peace, and Love: And, Shadows flying away. All which Books are here reprinted in one Book entirely, after the several Impressions of them, and presented to the Reader. 1 King. 19 11, 12. But the Lord was not in the Wind, and after the Wind an Earthquake, but the Lord was not in the Earthquake, and after the Earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire, and after the fire, a still small voice, (and the Lord was in that.) By John Saltmarsh, Preacher of the Gospel. LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAUL'S, 1646. TO HIS EXCELLENCY, Sir THOMAS FAIRFAX, General of all the Forccs raised for the PARLIAMENT. Right Honourable, THe several pieces thus rallied, were never writ in my own power, or appointment, but I had commonly some juncture of Providence, and something of a Spirit not my own upon me; for I observed I could not write when I would, my Springs, were not in me, nor could I end when I would, till I had finished this Testimony, and for something of God here, I am sure, there is enough of man, of myself; Thus is God's appearing while we are in the Body, he was in Christ's which had no sin, but he is not so in ours which are full of sin. I have some few things to say, and they are things of duty from me, and of truth to you; that God hath filled the story of your life with himself, with his Power, Wisdom, and Love, and all that he may be your fullness, and that you would glory in the Lord: Let me remind you how you have seen him from Leedes to Bradfoorth, to Wetherby, to York, to Hull, even from Yorkshire to Lincolnshire, from thence to Naseby, and so through the Conquest of Cities, Towns, Castles, through so much almost as a Kingdom comes to. And now after all this enter into your rest, even the love of God, the Son of God, and there refresh yourself in his light, in his glory, in the bosom of his love, there are pleasures for evermore; this is a piece of your coursest work, to bear the Sword for him who is the Power of God upon Earth, for the punishment of evil doers in the world, the more glorious work is your Spiritual, where Principalities and Rulers, and Spiritual wickedness in high places, flesh and blood are all against you, and yet you above them all, in him, through whom you are more than Conqueror, even him that loved you. Sir, Let it be not your business only to Conquer as a man, but as a Saint, not as a Soldier, but as a Christian, not in the spirit of man but of God. Let not a sin, a lust, a temptation stand more before you in the body, than an enemy in the field: gird on your spiritual Armour, your Shield of faith, your breastplate of righteousness, your Sword of the Spirit, your Helmet of Salvation, and put on your white lining, which is the righteousness of the Saints, and follow him who rides on the white Horse, in a vesture dipped in the blood of his sufferings, whose name is the Word of God, and tell me if ever there was Glory like unto this Glory. I cannot reckon the mighty men of valour in the world, any thing but a worldly glory, which if it died not with them, or some ages after them, yet can live no longer than the life of the world, all these things are perishing; but to be a man of the holy Spirit, a man borne of God, a man that wars not after the flesh, a man of the Kingdom of God, as well as of England: Thus you shall live beyond time, and age, and men, and the world; gathered up into the life which is Eternal, and was with the Father. Sir, Your dwelling now is much in the shadow of death, and amongst the Graves, and therefore so live in Christ your life, that you may have one life more than men can kill; men can only kill the man, not the Christian. Sir, I will not praise you, but bless God for you, and his Image in you, this will make great men love God, and not themselves; to speak of them as his, not as their own. Now Sir, so war, that you may be still a man of peace in the midst of battle, and of compassions in the midst of sufferings, never wearing your Laurel without some Olive, that all may know when you act as a Magistrate, and as yourself, when you act from power, or when from love, from Justice, or when from mercy. So love, as you may love God and Christ in men, more than men, and the Spirit in any more than the Form either of Presbytery or Independency. Thus Brethren who can now scarcely love one another because of that, shall love you, and shall learn to love one another from you, Noble Sir, Your humble servant, JOHN SALTMARSH. A New Quaere, At this time seasonably to be considered, as we tender the advancement of TRUTH & PEACE; Viz. Whether it be fit, according to the Principles of true Religion, and State, to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdom hastily, or not; and with the Power commonly desired, in the hands of the Ministers. By JOHN SALTMARSH, Preacher of the Word at Brasteed in Kent. 2 Cor. 10. 8. Our authority (which the Lord hath given for Instruction, and not for destruction.) LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Sign of the Black Spread-Eagle, at the West-End of S. PAUL'S. 1646. A Quaere: Whether it be ●it, according to the Principles of true Religion, and State, to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdom hastily, or not; and with the Power commonly desired, in the hands of the Ministers, 1. THe Rules laid down in the Word for practical Obedience, are these in part; Let every one be fully persuaded in his own mind, Rom. 14. 5. ver. 23. and whatsoever is not of faith, is sin. Now the settling of any Government upon a people who are yet generally untaught in the nature and grounds of it, is to put upon the people the practice of that wherein it is impossible they can be fully persuaded in their minds, and so either on a necessity of sin or misery. 2▪ There is great danger of bringing people under a Popish implicit Obedience, by forcing on a practice of that which they scarce know, or know but in part: And this is against the national Covenant, to side with any Principles of Popery: And we know it by experience, that the people have been ever devoted to any thing the State sets up; all the disputes or conscience of the common people usually ending in this, Whether it be established by Law or no; and going usually no higher nor further than a Statute or Act of State for their Religion. 3. Christ jesus himself could as easily have settled his Gospell-Government by miracle, as any can now by a Civil power, if there had been such a primary or moral necessity of establishing it so soon upon a people scarce enlightened for any part of it: But we see the contrary, first in himself, he taught long, and john before him, and so the Disciples; and the g●●●s for Government were not given till he ascended, and the Model for Government not brought forth but by degrees, and as people fell in and were capable of the Yoke, and would ●ould more easily to the Commandments of Christ's; and whether then or no, is yet a Question which some who have sit out the debates too, though not with me, who am fully assured of a power See in M. Colemans' Sermon. of order which the Apostle rejoiced to behold; though a power with as little dominion in Government as tradition in Worship. 4. We never read in the new Testament of a Gospell-government settled upon any that were not brought first under Gospell-obedience by the power of the Word and Spirit, which thousands of Congregations in this Kingdom are not▪ For as in material Buildings Stone and Timber are not to be cl●pt together without howing and squaring, so nor in the spiritual: And whereas in the Temple there should neither be Axe nor Hammer heard, because things were fitted before hand, and so laid together: I question how this could be in our Congregations now: I believe there would be now more of the Axe and the Hammer heard, then of the building seen. 5. We have found by experience, that the speedy settling of Government upon the Nation, hath made Reformation take little root, save in the outward man, or formal Obedience; and the reason was, Because they received not Reformation first in the power of the Word, but of the State, which went not so deep into their Consciences, but they could part with it at any time upon a Law: Oh then, Why do not days speak, and multitude of years teach knowledge? 6. It is against the nature of Christ's description of himself, and against that suitableness which he presses for, amongst all such as should submit to his Commandments; He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets, Matth. 11. 19 My yoke is easy, and my burden light, Matth. 11. 29. His Commandments are not grievous, 1 Joh. 5. 3. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles. All which cannot be fulfilled in the Parochial Congregations. 7. The more time for trying the spirits, and proving all things, there is less danger to that State of errings in things received and authorized, and of involving itself into the designs of Ecclesiastical power, than which nothing hath sooner broken the Civil power, as may be seen in Popish Kingdoms, and our late Prelatical. There can be no great danger in the not sudden incorporating the two powers: Since Moses is not alive to bring down the just Pattern of the Tabernacle, there may a new Star arise, which was not seen at first; which, if we shut up ourselves too soon while the smoke is in the Temple, cannot appear. 8. We have not yet any experiment of our new Clergy, who are many of them branches of the old stock, and so may wield the Government too much of the Episcopal Faction, as the Samaritans did with the jewish Government, because they were not natural jews. It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands. Our Brethren of Scotland have been more used to the way of Presbytery, and may better trust one another upon mutual experience, than we can yet. 9 We experience in part some remainders of Prelacy working in many, which shows a constitution not so clear nor pure as the Disciples of Christ should have; then whether it be safe committing the power too suddenly: For though I question not but some may be like the ten, yet there are others like the two Brethren who strove which should be greatest, till the Lord ended the difference, It shall not be so amongst you. We find the hottest Controversy is now moved about Church-government; and there hath been most written and spoken this way, and in most violence: Now when the contention for power is so much, and the Controversy streams most in Government, we may soon discern dispositions. Well, is it good parting with the stakes yet while there is such quarrelling for them, & when one party cannot but take it for an injury, if wholly given to the other? It is to be feared, there is too much of man, because the bias runs most in these times towards this one truth of government, & many other are wholly set by, which might well be looked upon with it; which if there were not a Principle in man more fitted for a truth of this kind than any other, would not be: But every truth hath its age and season. This only for caution. 10. There is no Religion established by State, but there is some proportion in the two Powers, and some compliancy betwixt the Civil and Ecclesiastical; so as the establishing the one, will draw with it some motions in the other: And we all see how hazardous it is to disinteresse any in the Civil part, even in Kingdoms that are more firm, as France, where the Protestants are partly allowed their Religion in pay for their Civil engagements; and so in other States. And sure I am, that State is most free, where the conscience is least straitened, where the Tares and the Wheat grow together till the harvest. 11. Our parties or dissenting Brethren being now together, and clasped by interest against the common enemy, this foundation of common unity is such as may draw in both affections and judgements, if not too suddenly determined into Heretics and Schismatics: It is possible, while a Controversy is long suspended, and time given for conclusion of things, Opinions may be sooner at peace: A fire let alone, may die out under that wood which stirred in would kindle it. The Contentions of Brethren are like the strong bars of a Castle; and a Brother that is offended is harder to be won then a strong City, Prov. 18. 19 OBJECTIONS. I. BUt the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs' time; and therefore, etc. And Haggai calls to the building, Is it time? Hag. 1. 4. Answ. Yea, but the material Pattern was more clearly left and known then the Gospell-patternes: The other were more in the letter, and these more in the Spirit. Now there must be a proving all things, else there may be more haste then good speed; and the Temple may be built by a false Pattern as well as a true, and then better no Building, than no right Cedar to build with. And there were Prophets then, who knew the periods of times, and could Prophesy, as Haggai and Zechariah; but none so exactly now; and these knew both the fashion and the time for Building. Yet who ought not to hasten the Temple, if the Timber be ready, and if the Apostles and Prophets be there for a foundation, and jesus Christ for chief Corner-ston? Ephes. 2. Object. II. But Vice, Heresies and Schisms will grow too fast. Answ. So they might have done from john's first Sermon to Paul's Epistles, and the sending of the Spirit; but yet you see there was no Government, till after, settled upon the people of God. And if Heresies stir up their Patrons against the State, the Magistrate bears not the Sword in vain? And if moral transgressions, let the Magistrate be set on in every place to quicken the Statutes; and Preachers every where sent forth to publish the Gospel. And what if the Prince of Persia withstand for a while? Truth is otherwise armed from heaven: Though Satan be in the wisdernesse with Corist, yet Christ shall conquer. It is the Papists and the Prelate's Jealousies, to keep up their supposed truths, by suspecting every thing that appears for an enemy. The Gospel dares walk abroad with boldness and simplicity, when Traditions of men, like melancholy people, fear every thing they meet will kill them: For the Angel that comes down from heaven hath great power, and the earth is lightened with his glory, Rev 18. 1. FINIS. THE OPENING OF MASTER PRYNNES NEW BOOK; CALLED, A Vindication: OR, Light breaking out from a Cloud of Differences, or late Controversies. Wherein, Are Inferences upon the Vindication, and Antiquaeres to the Quaeres; and by that, the way a little cleared to a further Discovery of Truth in a Church-Order, by a Conference or Discourse. By JOHN SALTMARSH, Preacher at Brasteed in Kent. Published according to Order. LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Sgne of the Black Spread-Eagle, at the West-End of S. PAUL'S. 1645. To the Honourable Philip Skippon, Major General of the Army, raised for the King and Parliament, under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax General. NOBLE SIR, SVpposing you may take the Book called the Vindication by Master Prynne into your hand, I desire that this Discourse may be in your other hand, as occasion serves. If the Lord hath revealed any thing in this Discourse, to enlighten the darkness of this present Controversy, it is only from him who is the Father of Lights, who carries on his to a more excellent way, till we may with open face, behold the Glory of Jesus Christ, and be changed from glory to glory. Sir, The thing I only contend for, is, that which the Gospel and Spirit calls for; Whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are of good report. Sir, The engagement of private respects which are upon me towards you; and being likewise a partaker of some labours of yours in the Lord, which are abroad, as that of Promises, etc. The best treasure we have in this life, hath drawn this from me. The Lord who hath wounded you, bind you up, and lead you on to the glorious Truths; for, if I mistake not, our Controversy is but this in these times; some would walk more close with Christ, some can be content like Peter to walk at more distance, and follow him afar off, and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Common-Hall: And let the Word judge betwixt us, which is of best report. Sir, Yours in the things of jesus Christ, John Saltmarsh. But I have many Reasons I shall now acquaint you with, if you will have but patience, and not upon a Notion or Name of Heresy and Schism shut up your Windows, as against a new light, Meteor, or some Blazing-Star, as too many do: we are bidden try the spirits, and prove all things. (Friend) be not so discourteous to any Notion that is a stranger, it is besides the Aposties' rule▪ be not, says he, forgetful to entertain strangers, for some have entertained Angels unawares. And this is one Reason further, till more come; we are but coming out of Babylon, you, and we were but the other day with the veil of Prelacy upon our hearts, and we are but in healing, like the blind man; and because yet we see men like Trees, shall we therefore judge them to be so, and not stay till our eyes be opened, that we see better? P. Have you no better reasons to convince me? These I confess are something, and I will think on them. C. Yea, look with a single eye upon their principles, and take them in their own single Positions, not as the world Prints them, or reports them, this is much a wanting in these times; you know what was said of the Christians to Paul, As for this sect, every where it is spoken against; And I see no reason, why other opinions which have been held by some Author of one opinion, should be all charged upon that one for his sake, which neither in itself, nor any just consequence from it, can be proved of any right to belong unto it: And if there be any Tares with the wheat, they are of the enemies sowing, as Christ said, to make us go by, and not reap there where the Wheat is so scant, and the Tares so many. P. But, O methinks, if things were settled about the Church once! C. Yea, but how will you settle? F. How? As it is agreed on. C. Agreed on? What, have you not heard of the new Book of the Vindication of the four Questions? P. What of that? C. Some of the learned, for the Presbiteriall way, are divided about settling, and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation. P. How? Any of our judgement divided? I will not believe that: Surely, they are not like your Independent Brethrer, to crumble into divisions, and several opinions. C. Look you now, how you are mistaken! I tell you again, The Vindication-Book, whose Author is as famous and able, as your way affords, hath writ a large Tractate for mixed Communions or Sacraments, against some of that way that are against them. P. Believe me, if it be so, I shall be at a stand; I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery, had been all of a mind, and none had broken out into Factions, but they of the other side. C. I love not this word Faction on any side yet, till we see more; I would not misinterpret any willingly: You shall hear the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion; for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing, but merely Scripture and Reason. P. I pray you, what are the differences? C. A reverend Brother of the Presbyterial way, answers certain Questions of another's of that way, which he it seems had propounded to the State, to be considered on in the settling of things over the Kingdom: and some others too, in certain Printed Treatises, have gone about to confute them; so as his Questions, which as he professes openly, were written only for the advancement of Reformation, were interpreted by those of the same way with him, as an enemy of Reformation, as an adversary, and an obstruction Vindication, Fol. 1. to the work of Reformation, and settlement of Church-Discipline, as he saith. P. O strange! one of them thus censured by their own, and by those, whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himself against the new ways of Independency and Separation, as he calls them: But well, how differ they? C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline, and censures, and the Administration of the Lords Supper, wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him: As first, He holds there is no precept nor precedent in Scripture, for the Fol. 3. suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper, who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church, and all other Ordinances as well: some of the other hold the contrary, or mistake, as he saith. 2. That Matth. 18. 16, 17. If thy Brother trespass, etc. is not meant Fol. 3. of the Church, nor of excommunication, nor suspension from the Sacrament; which the other hold. 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan, is not meant of suspension Fol. 6. or excommunication from the Sacrament; which the other hold. 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one, no, not to eat, is not meant of Folly 9 Spiritual eating; which the other hold. 5. That Numb. 9 1, 10, 11. is not meant of excluding any by way Fol. 14. of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension, but of total putting out from all Ordinances, for legal uncleannesles, not Spiritual. 6. That Judas received the Supper, or Sacrament, as well as the other Fol. 17. Apostles, and that the Sop that was given him before he went out, was after the Bread was distributed; which some of the other deny. 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himself, if he give warning Fol. 28. to unworthy Communicants of the danger, and then give it; which the other hold not. 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated Fol. 35. gross impenitents, for fear of partaking in their sin, as to administer the Sacrament to them; and they hear damnation in the one, as well as eat damnation in the other. That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, is as well a converting Ordinance, Folly 40, 41, etc. as any other, being reckoned amongst the Means of Grace, and so to be administered to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation; which some of the other deny. That they put groundless differences betwixt Preaching of the Word, and Administration of the Sacraments. 9 That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9 21, 34, 35. is no Fol. 48. good proof of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament. 10. That the Author's Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question, are not Fol. 49. rightly applied, as his opposites say. P. And are these the differences fully? C. Yea, excepting the Proofs on both sides, for which, I refer you to the Books themselves, which all together, are large. P. But how conclude they? C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly show them, that they Fol. 50. contend for what he doth grant them, with advantage; and yet they quarrel with him for denying it, as he saith. P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another, and amongst these of our Preshyterial side too. C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider, and take care, that the Fol. 57 Ministers, like the Bishops formerly, may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing. P. But how will some of our Ministers take this? C. I know not that; but I like well in this; but he goes upon one ground more than all the rest. P. What is that? C. That the very ground, upon which divers of the more moderate and tender in the Presbyterial way, go, is the ground of all the growing, and spreading of Schism and Separation, Anabaptism, and other Errors tending to them, which yet they believe, they so much preach against▪ Fol. 58. a strange mistake with them, as he observes. P. If it be so, how pitifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds? and the best of them too, to be so mistaken, is the more to be wondered: for I count the tenderest of them the best; but this is yet a secret to me. C. Yea, and to them it may seem so too; but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book, if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper, and some other thoughts of partaking in their sins, is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation, which if fomented, as the Author insinuates, may in time Fol. 59 subvert the other principles of Presbytery, as indeed they may, being something inconsistent, and of a better and more spiritual nature; and I am of his opinion, for I would have all of a colour and constitution, All light, or all darkness; and believe it, your principles of a purer way, will not long incorporate with any other; the Ark and Dagon will not stand together, and the way to overthrow the inventions of men, is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions; what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down? Not its own principles of Idolatry, Will-worship, and Tyranny: But when there were some take in of Reformation-principles, as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy, Popery fell much in the power of it; and so when from Prelacy they went off to Presbytery, Prelacy fell, and so on: If you make any remove from the common principles of this Presbytery, into any of the way or parts of the Separation, your Presbytery will down too, because it takes in some purer principles then, as we may gather from the Vindication Book, it will well bear. P. But if these be then the common Principles of this Presbyterial way, as he would have it to communicate in Ordinances thus mixedly, and to suspect no uncleanness in any spiritual Communion from persons so communicating, though of never so unreformed a life, excepting only some pretended form all flashy apparences of Faith and Repentance put on and off by the Communicants, as occasion serves; I shall have I think no such good thoughts as I had of that way. C. But the grounds are yet further laid down in the Book, that unmixed Vind. l. Fol. 59 Communions, and suspending from the Sacrament, are grounds of Schism; and that the teaching of these formerly, through ignorance or incogitancy, are now to be taught, and written, and preached against. P. I perceive then in a word, That the main thing the Vindication-Book drives at, is, to place Presbytery upon such a mixed uniformity in the partaking of Ordinances, that there should be no act of suspension or separation practised in their Church, lest the ground of separation get in; and they that make conscience to separate or suspend in some particulars▪ it implies, they may go on to a further separation, till upon more degrees of purity in communicating, they go off from all kind of mixed communicatings, in the constituting, as well Churches, as Ordinances and Administrations, and so at length become, either congregational, or of the other way. But many of us took such of the Presbyterial way, as written and taught, for a pure Reformation in partaking of Ordinances, for the better, according to their light: And it seems they are but novices, as we may gather from the Vindication-Book, and are ignorant of his Presbyterial secret, or mystery of uniformity, and unmixed communicating, according to the grounds there. Well, I am yet of the purer side, I like not this mystery, if the way to keep out Schism be of such a kind, as draws with it an unavoidable necessity of partaking with all sorts of sinners, except only for some present affected passions of Faith and Repentance, and a Toleration of all sorts of that kind, except by excommunication, where in some places whole Parishes, and almost in all Parishes many must stand, either excommunicated by the Classis, or Presbytery, or Reform, which is impossible, or as frequent partakers of Ordinances, spiritual fellowship, as the best, and purest, which is intolerable. C. Indeed, I am glad you come off so well already. I will not meddle with the present state of some of these first particulars in difference I named to you, but leave them to the Authors; but come to some of the more questionable. For that Controversy betwixt the Brethren, which is, Whether Judas Fol. 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28. received or not? I know there are divers Leaves of Paper writ upon it in the Vindication, and many learned men are quoted, and Scriptures brought in on both sides, and harmoniously compared; but since the Lord left it so disputable, as some imagine, we must not do in such doubtful sayings, as those Disciples did, who because Christ said of John, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? and it was reported amongst the Disciples, that that Disciple should not die, though Christ said not he should not die: but only, what if I will that he tarry. So if the Lord hath not clearly said, that Judas was there, why goeth it so amongst the Disciples, as if he were there without all contradiction? but if he were, and Christ gave it to Judas, as for my part, I make it not any such ground, though he and all others do, because it will not be clear then, that he gave it to Judas as a wicked man, or a formal Disciple; for I know Christ administered then as an outward Dispenser to the Church, or chief pastor, and in his Body unglorifyed, whereby he kept close to the analogy of visible Administration of Ordinances, and in Precedent and Precept, for the future to his Churches for all ages; and so all their puzzling may be at an end. I will now acquaint you further with some Arguments or Inferences from the Vindication, which I have to strengthen you. Vindication, Fol. 36. THat no Minister, not knowing the present change or inclination of the heart of any, or whether God by this very duty, may not really convert him, aught to administer the Sacrament. Inference. Whence we may infer, That all sorts of sinners, never so profane and abominable yet upon any present, affected, counterfeited, formal pretence of Faith and Repentance, aught to partake in all things of the most spiritual nature and fellowship; and withal, of the most spiritual and sincere profession, contrary to these Scriptures, 1 Pet. 2. 9 2 Cor. 6. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. Isai. 52. 11. Gal. 5. 9 Vindication, Fol. 37. The brethren's Reason, That in the Sacrament, there is a nearer application of the Word, and Promises in particular, of the right and interest in them, more than in the Word preached, which the Vindication saith, is just like the late Archbishop of Cante●buries Doctrine for bowing at the Altar, as Gods great place of presence. Inference. Whence we may infer, that the Vindication doth very uncharitably compare Doctrines and Principles, viz. his brethren's with those of Prelacy, and his Brethren with the grossest of Prelates; and their Principles, of spiritual Administration, and Communion with those of a most Idolatrous, and external nature, which is contrary to these Scriptures, james 4. 12. Matth. 7. 1, 3, etc. 1 Pet. 3. 8. Vindication, Fol. 37. That the Minister administering the Sacrament to any known impenitent sinners, yet under the Notion of penitent and repenting sinners, for that time discharges himself. Inference. Whence we may infer, That a Minister ought to comply with the Hypocrisies, pretences, compliances, forms, of any notorious, scandalous, or impenitent sinner at that time, only in the aparition or resemblance of a Saint and a Wolf in Sheep's clothing, contrary to these Scriptures, 1 Tim. 5. 21, 22. Math. 15. 26. 2 Tim. 3. 5. 1 Thes. 5. 22. 1 Cor. 6. 16. Vindication, Fol. 37, 38. That the words of Institution in the Sacrament, The Body of Christ which was broken, and the Blood of Christ shed for you, is not of any Divine Institution, but humane only, though, warrantably practised. Inference. Whence we may infer, That he, in affirming the Institution to be only humane, and yet warrantable, is not only an impeaching of their worship of God in the highest and most spiritual Admirations of Will-worship, and humane invention, and want of conformity to the Rule or Word; but even a flat contradiction in a Scripture sense, because he adds, Yet warrantably practised; as if an unlawful way of worship, as all will-worship is, might be lawfully practised; which is contrary to these Scriptures, Matth. 15. 3, 9 Isai. 29. 13, 14. Gal. 3. 15. john 10. 4, 5. Matth. 6. 44. Tit. 1. 14. Rev. 14 9, 10. Vindication, Fol. 38. That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper belongs of right to all visible knowing Members of the visible Church, as well as the Sacrament of Baptism. Inference. Whence we may infer, That in this his equalizing all Ordinances under this Notion of knowing Members, that either children are not capable of Baptism, because not knowing Members, and upon this ground of his wrongfully Baptised; or if right Members, yet deprived of the other Sacrament of the Supper, to which, as visible Members, they have right, as well as to the other, there being no distinction of knowing and unknowing Members in this sense; or else, that they may partake in that Ordinance of Baptism, and be signed or sealed, and yet no right Members of a visible Church. Vindication, Fol. 38. That that of not casting Pearls before Swine in Matth. 7. 6, 10, 14. is expressly determined in 2 Pet. 2, 1, 2, 21, 22. and Heb. 10. 28, 29. to open Apostates, not to scandalous sinners, who duly repair to publish Ordinances, and externally profess Reformation and Repentance; and to apply this Text to these, is a mere perverting of it. Inference. Whence we may infer▪ That this cuts off the Brethren of the more purely-Presbyteriall way fully from all their foundation-Texts of any more spiritual distribution of Holy Ordinances, or any dictinction in the distribution, which they have so long breathed after, and rejoiced in the expectation of; and their condition upon these Principles are no better now in their so much desired-for-Reformation, than it was under the Prelates and Common-Prayer-Book, which holds the door more close against sinners, than the Vindication or they ought to do, upon these his principles. And secondly, The full and final determining a Scripture of this kind, or any other, to one particular sense, is not agreeable to that Spirit of Wisdom, and of God, which is an infinitely abounding Spirit; and like the Sun, is full of beams and continual springings of light; nor do the Interpretations of the Word, appear all at once: the same Scripture which many ages ago gave out one beam of light, gave more in the ages after, and more now, as the eyes of our understanding are enlightened; so as Scriptures are not to be bounded in our sense, nor the elevations of spirit, taken by the short rule of our spirits; which is contrary to these Scriptures, 2 Pet. 1. 20, 21. 2. Cor. 5. 16. Phil. 3. 12, 13, 15, 16. Ephes. 3. 18, 19 1 Cor. 2. 14, 15. Vindication, Fol. 41. If the Sacrament be only a settling or confirming Ordinance of true Grace, when and where it is already begun, than it were altogether impertinent, and ineffectual unto civil carnal Christians; therefore doubtless it is, and was intended by Christ for a converting Ordinance to all such as those. Inference. Whence we may infer, That the Sacrament being a converting Ordinance, may be given to all unregenerate persons, in or out of the Church; for if it be a converting Ordinance, the consequence lies clear, that no sinners, of any sort, kind, quality, condition, in or out of the Church, aught to be denied it; nay, to have it administered, as well without the Word, as with it, it being of equal power with the Word for converting, as the Vindication faith; and that who holds otherwise, are mistaken. And though there be a distinction premised of converting to the Faith, or formal profession, and a converting to a spiritual sincere Faith in jesus Christ; yet this distinction makes not any thing against the Sacrament, to be given before the Word, even for conversion to the first Faith, or faith from Paganism; which neither Scriptures, nor practice of Christ, or any Disciple of his, from Apostles to the seventy, and so down through any age, to our own, that ever I could read on, practised: and yet the principles laid down in Folly 38. will infer such a consequence, naturally and truly; for the Vindication saith in Fol. 38. That the Word, and all Ordinances, are alike for conversion; and if so, the Sacraments may be used as well to convert from Paganism, and administered singly by themselves, as the Word by itself may be taught. Secondly, The Vindication saith, That it is doubtless to be given to all, for else it had been an impertinent and ineffectual thing to administer to close Hypocrises that are carnal Christians. Whence we may infer, That because the Counsels of the Lord in all his Administrations, do not clearly appear, but through the Vindications of his own suppositions and premises; therefore he concludes fully, That it were impertinent and ineffectual, when as there appears no such end at all in the institution of it, but rather two other ends. One which himself lays down, as occasional or evidential, for the damnation, and hardening some; though I scarce allow him that, that Ordinances of mercy and grace, are properly active to condemnation. The other which he never thinks on in his Book, is this, That God having left no infallible Rule for discerning, hath ordered it by a pure Gospell-rule, which if wicked men will come up to, they hazard greater condemnation. Further we may infer, That things may be called impertinent and ineffectual, which are instituted of the Lord, when the reasons of the Lords Institution appears not to us; and that we may put our own suppositions and ends upon any administration in the Word, when his ends are not clear to us; nay, and conclude against any other end than that of our own conjecture, or supposed probable reason; which I am confident is too too gross to be in the learned Author Intentionally, though not consequentially, in his Vindication. But the ends which I clearly gather from the Analogy of things in God's dispensation, are these; Why the Sacrament; though according to the institution delivered to Hypocrites, yet is no converting Ordinance? God having left no infallible Rule of discerning his, but only a▪ Rule for outward evidences, the Ordinances must either be administered to all, walking according to the Rule of outward evidences, or to none; and according to that Rule, Hypocrites may come in, and do; yet that is no sin to the Administrator nor Communicants, so long as Administrations be ordered according to that Rule, and Gods End of his revealed Will showed. Secondly, The work of sifting, and reaping, of dividing betwixt the Tares and the Wheat, the Sheep and the Goats, is the work of the great day of the Son of man; and therefore, though Ordinances be administered here to Hypocrites; yet at the time of the final discerning, the communicating of Hypocrites shall be visited in judgement, and greater condemnation upon them. So as there is no need of framing it into any Notion of a converting Ordinance, lest otherwise it prove impertinent or ineffectual; for if the close Hypocrites be finally impenitent ones, God reckons for a greater sin; if not, yet it is no more impertinent than the Word is to all the children of God, who yet never partake truly of it, till converted. Thirdly, That the distinction of his into the first conversion from Papanism to Faith; and secondly, from a formal Faith, to a true sincere Faith in Jesus Christ, which is the corner Stone in his building, is a distinction, and certain degrees, which we have not in any such Notion in the Word; nor if it were, doth it appear that the Scriptures place administration upon the bottom of any such distinction, though he doth it? But suppose I grant it, yet a formal profession then, as he contends for, and many other, was not such as is now, since Kingdoms were Christianized; but a profession than was according to the Rule of evidence, till the contrary appeared, as in all the first gathered Churches, as in Simon Magus, Ananias, etc. And formal profession then, was as much as a kind of powerful profession now; for than it was persecution, to take up an Ordinance or Name of Christ, and now it is faction on the Law of the Land, as well as the Law of the God, to profess Christ; neither were the whole Counsels of the Spirit of Christ brought forth then to make up the rule of evidences, as afterwards; but they were brought forth by degrees, till the whole Scriptures of the New Testament were finished. And we are now to take the whole Counsels of God concerning Administrations, as laid down in the whole New Testament, and not by parcels, though so much as they did profess in the first time of gathering, were rule enough then, to them, when no more was revealed, yet not to us now, who have a full Gospel for our learning: And this mistake or want of just consideration of times, and Scriptures, is the ground of all the mistakes. Vindication, Fol. 41. Why should not the Sacrament do the like, since God's Spirit equally breathes, and works in all his Ordinances, and may, and doth regenerate, and beget grace in men's souls? Inference. Whence we may infer, That it is lawful, according to this Principle to believe, That if one Ordinance convert, any other may, whether God hath instituted so or no. We know the Lord hath appointed and ordered every Ordinance to its nature, kind, and use; and God's institution is to be the rule of our believing, and reasoning, and practising, not because such a thing works so, therefore any thing works so as that thing works. The Author himself reasons against this in another place, and that there is no right inference, but in things of the like kind, and under the like precept, as thus: The Word is able to convert, therefore all Preaching and Prophesying is able to convert; but not therefore the Sacraments can convert. Vindication, Fol. 41. The Sacraments are by all Divines whatsoever, and the very Directory, pag. 52. ever enumerated among the means of Grace and Salvation; Why then should they not be the means of converting? Inference. Whence we may infer, That it is warrantable to expound Divines, and the Directory contrary to their intent and meaning, and to infer conclusions from them, to prove things which are not only very disputable, but unwarrantable, as far as any Scripture makes appear, either in any plain precept, or precedent, and especially to turn the Directory, being a Public form made by the Assembly, so much against their sense and meaning, as appears by divers of their judgements of late, is an attempt, much like that of expounding a Law or Ordinance of Parliament in a private sense; not in their own; and this quotation of a Directory, in this kind, is enough to make it all questionable, and to draw on a necessity of a public interpretation upon it. Vindication, Folly 41, 42. That receiving Sacraments is usually accompanied with effectual means, as serious examinations, solemn searching out of all open and secret sins, with confession, contrition, humiliation, prayers of pardon, secret purposes and vows, sundry pious and soul-ravishing meditations of God's mercy, exhortations, admonitions, by the Ministers: And why is not the Sacrament a more fit and apt Ordinance to regenerate, convert ungodly and scandalous sinners, than the bare Word preached? Inference. Whence we may infer, That there are certain preparations and qualifications in men merely unregenerate, which are here lifted up into something more than natural or carnal workings, or filthiness of the flesh; as prayers for pardon of sin, pious and soul-ravishing meditations, with humiliation, contrition, confession, etc. Now I would fain know, what there is in man before the glorious light of Jesus Christ hath opened his eyes, and brought him out of prison, out of darkness into light? What kind of prayers can such make? What pious meditations can such have of God's mercy in Christ? What contrition is there in such? What humiliation? Without faith it is impossible to please God; and the carnal mind is enmity against God; nor is it subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be; and they that are in the flesh, cannot please God. What is all this then of prayers? When as the prayers of the wicked are abominable; What are all those flourishes and noise of vows and purposes, and contrition, and meditations of an unregenerate man, when they all are but glorious sins? Do men gather Grapes of Thorns, or Figs of Thistles? Why should nature be made proud with these expressions? And any ground laid for boasting? And whereas it is said, that the Sacrament is a more apt means to convert, than the bare Word preached, we may infer some derogating and diminution, or lessening employed here of the Ordinance of the Word or Ministry, because it is said, Then the bare Word, as if so be, that the Word were a bare Word, when it comes in the power of salvation to regenerate, when the Spirit quickens it, and makes it a Word of truth, of grace, the power of God unto salvation; and we see the Word or Ministry itself is called, The Preaching of faith, The Ministry of Reconciliation: The Sacrament is not called so any where, though no less glorious neither: And Christ and his Apostles and Disciples went every where preaching the Word; but not administering the Sacrament but only there, where the ministry of the Word had first brought them under the power of the gospel-order, and Rule for Ordinances of a more spiritual institution. Vindication, Fol. 4●. That because we behold Christ's death and passion more visibly represented to our eyes and hearts in the Sacrament, and remission of sins more sensibly applied to us, then in any other Ordinances; therefore it is certainly the most powerful Ordinance of all others, to regenerate and covert; with many Scriptures to prove conversion by representation. Inference. We may infer, That because the Lord hath instituted his sign of Bread and Wine in the Supper to his own end; therefore it will serve to any end: That we can prove of our own imagining, upon certain rational conclusions from Scripture or reason, without particular Scriptures authorising or appointing it to such an end; and therefore all these grounds, consequences, and notions which are form upon a likelihood and probability, are nothing to prove any direct use of the Sacrament to such an end, without, as I have said, a special Word, Precept, or Practise, or just Consequence from Scriptures, directed to such a proof; for else there is scarce any thing but we may reason into a notion of likelihood: but faith must have better grounds, and not of private interpretation; and the Scriptures that are alleged, must not be to prove that things of lively representation may most affect the soul, and have done so; but that these Scriptures are plainly or powerfully directed by the Spirit of God to prove the very Institution of the Supper to that end; which none of those Scriptures prove, that are alleged in Fol. 42. Vindication, Fol. 43. That God doth as effectually teach, convert, and work grace by the eye as ear; and therefore were the Sacraments, Sacrifices, Types, Miracles, etc. Why should not then the visible expressions of Christ in the Sacrament now, have the like effectual converting power. Inference. We may infer, as we have done before, That all these are but Why should notes? no words of Institution or Authority in the Scripture for it. But further, the Legal Sacraments, etc. were carnal, and more to the sense, and more of representation, but these are more in the spirit under the Gospel; we worship now in spirit and in truth, not by representations, as under the Law: And therefore it is, that the Gospell-Ordinances are so few, so plain, and poor to the eye, that the soul may not be taken up with the sign, but with things spiritual: And we may observe, that as little as can be of outward elements are made use on; as in Baptism, mere water; and in the Supper, Wine and Bread; and the first Ordinance is called the Baptism of the Spirit, not of water; and the Bread and Wine, The Communion of the Body, and of the Blood of Christ, not Bread and Wine: And, faith the Apostle, If we have known Christ after the flesh, henceforth know we have no more. And further, What is it that is said of grace coming in by the eye? This is the way the Papists let in Christ, having made the eye rather the Organ for conversion then the ear: Now Faith cometh by hearing, and therefore all their Idolatrous Pictures, their Imagery; and theabicall representations are all for the eye, and bringing in Christ by Obtick or sense, and making conversion to be by perspective, and working only an historical faith. And further, What is it that is said of working grace by the eye? As if the carnal part could advantage conversion by any power there, but such a power as is merely carnal and natural? What can all these signs of the Lord jesus do upon a blind soul, as all unregenerate men are? What are the glorious colours to him that hath no eyes to see? The signs of bread and wine are given for working symbolically, or by sign, upon a soul or understanding spiritually enlightened before, and having a discerning; and therefore it is that the Apostle saith, He that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lords Body; which, if the Supper had been a converting Ordinance, the Apostle would not have charged the unworthy from receiving, but rather have encouraged them in their receiving, that, of unworthy, they might have been made worthy: But you see he calls for a right discerning of the Lords Body first, which cannot be a calling of the unregenerate or unconverted to a partaking, because they have no right discerning of the Body of Christ, but by the sense first converted. Vindication, Fol. 44. 1. That the most humbling, melting, soul-changing, sin-purging, mollifying meditations, of all others, are from Christ's death and passion, etc. and therefore, etc. 2. Afflictions and corporal punishments are converting Ordinances; therefore, etc. 3. That unworthy participating is a means of spiritual hardening; and so by the rule of contraries, a worthy receiving an instrument of conversion. 4. All the ends of it are, as appears, so spiritual (see his Scriptures) that how is it possible it should not be God's intention, and Christ's Ordination, to be a converting Ordination? 5. Conversion is a turning of the whole man unto love, obedience of God in Christ, from the love of the world, etc. and what engine more powerful for the forecited respects or spiritual ends? 6. Experience in every Christians conscience, whose preparations and approaches to this Sacrament were the first effectual means of their conversion; yea, they had not been converted, if debarred from it. Inference. We may infer upon the first, That there are soul-melting meditations in a soul unconverted, or unmelted; and that there are soul-changing meditations in a soul unchanged▪ which the Scriptures never speak on; such ways of conversion are no ways in the Word that we read on, but hidden paths for the spirit, of man's devising. Secondly, that because afflictions are therefore Sacraments are that is, because one thing is therefore another thing is: This is but the Old Argument, But God may sanctify any thing at his own pleasure, to make way for Conversion and yet that no instituted Ordinance for conversion neither: Because some have been converted when afflicted, when sick, when poor; therefore will you first go afflict them, and make them sick, and poor, taking all they have from them, that you may convert them, and so make them standing Ordinances? Thirdly, Is a rule of contraries a rule in the Scriptures, or in Logic? But it is said, Worthy receiving is an instrument of Conversion, that is, Conversion is a means of Conversion: who can receive worthily, till in Christ, till converted? 4. But all the ends of it are spiritual, and how is it possible but then it should convert? This How is it possible? is like that of Why should it not? both of one strength to prove it; for though the ends be never so spiritual, yet if there be no warrant for any such institution as conversion, all the reasons & extrinsecall or strange consequences, as all such are, cannot institute an Ordinance: none but God and Christ; and therefore the Popish Arguments built upon such foreign and external (though rational) consequences are not immediate nor intrinsical enough to warrant any thing of their will-worship. 5. But ●● is a powerful engine: Yea, but only for what it is instituted and ordained; nor is it less excellent, because it converts not, because every thing is beautiful in its order and place, and law of creation. 6 But the experiences of Chrictians witness, who had never been converted, if not at the Sacrament: But what Christians are these? What kind of experiences are these? I question the truth of all such conversion who have only such experience, as this, because that such experience, crosses the Word and way of the Spirit, and those are no right experiences, which are not Scripture-experiences. But, some had not been converted, if debarred from it. This is a strange assertion, against that of the Word, The spirit bloweth where and when it listens; and some are called at one hour of the day, some at another; and how is it clear that the Sacrament converted such or not some other act of the Word at that time, or about it? Show me that Christian, among so many, that can evidence his act of conversion merely, barely, singly, immediately from the act of communicating, and then there is something proved to justify an experience of Conversion at such a time; but still not to justify the Sacrament an Ordinance-Conversion▪ and so to be used. Vindication, Fol. 46. Is any Master or Parent so unnatural and sottish to deny his children or servant wholesome meat to feed their bodies? And shall any Minister be so irrational or inconsiderate, in denying the spiritual food? Inference. Whence we may infer, That the Vindication takes all unconverted persons, by this comparison, to be alive, and spiritually quickened, or else it were, as he says, unnatural, sottish, irrational to give them food: And if they be unconverted, as he pleads for, than who is so unnatural, sottish, irrational, or inconsiderate, as to give them any? Men only hold forth food to the living, and not to the dead. Vindication, Fol. 46. Physicians had an error, to deny drink to men in Fevers, which murdered Thousands; but now they see this deadly mistake, and correct it: So let not this error creep into Divinity and Divines, in denying the cup to such Feverish Christians, burning in the flames of sin and lust. Inference. Whence we may infer, That there is in the unconverted a spiritual Feverish thirst after Christ, as there is in the sick after drink. But oh! Doth the same fountain send forth sweet and bitter waters? Are there any such spiritually-feaverish desires in souls merely carnal and ●●regenerate? Can the burning in the flames of sin and lust breathe any such heavenly longings? Can there be any desires but sinful desires after Christ? Can any but a soul like david's pant after the water-brookes? Are the flames of sin and lust like that heavenly fire in the bosom which the Prophet speaks on? Do the hearts of any bourn within them, but when Christ is in their company, and when spiritually inflamed by him? Are the kindle of sin like the kindle upon the Altar? Is the fire in the kitchen like the fire in the Temple? Are the burnings of hell like the burnings of heaven? If not, Why are we told of men burning in the flames of sin and lust after Christ? The doctrine is not more unwarrantable than the expression is uncomely. Vindication, Fol. 47. A Peradventure we may receive or do good, by such a particular Ordinance or action, is a sufficient encouragement for us to adventure on it in other cases; let it be also warrantable in such cares where they have at least a probability, a possibility, a peradventure, it may be, and a Who knoweth but it may convert? Inference. Whence we may infer, That the sum of all the former Arguments now summed up, you see, will reach no higher then to a Peradventure, or to a may be. And whether these be such Scripture-grounds or assurances for administrations of the Ordinances of God, I appeal to all the world of believers, who knows, that May bees, and Peradventures, are not to be allowed any place in the practicail obedience of Christians; but clear, demonstrative, solid and certain Maxims or Principles; for, Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin: and, He that doubteth is damned: and, Happy Rom. 14. is he that condemneth not himself in what he doth. And who knows not, that what is done upon May bees and Peradventures, cannot be done of faith nor persuasion? Vindication, Fol. 51. That the Presbytery or Classis may order a Suspension from the Sacrament or any other Ordinances; provided that this power be claimed by no Divine Right, but by Parliamentary Authority, and Humane Institution. Inference. Whereby we may infer, That what is not to be warranted in the Word, yet if Humane Authority will undertake it, it shall not be excepted against by the Vindication. But where is there that Authority that will adventure so far, to make up any thing in spiritual Administrations▪ that there is no Spiritual nor Scripture-warrant for? I am sorry to see the Vindication set the Parliamentary Authority so near to Humane Invention, of whom we are persuaded better things then to take the Patronage of any such thing, which is not warrantable by the Word; but rather to suspend all, then to settle any thing so close to the highest Administrations in the Word, which is of mere Humane Invention. Nay, I will prove this to be the very Maxim and practice of that honourable Senate, who have therefore rooted out Episcopacy, professed to the most high God in a Covenant against all Will-worship, and Traditions of men; and therefore let us not roll such a golden ball before Authority, to put them out of their way after Christ, who have followed him so close hitherto, both in their search in the Word, and in their tenderness of persecution, lest they might scourge Christ out of his own Temple, and not know it. Vindication, Fol. 57 The practical power of godliness is generally more evidently visible, and the lives of the generality of the people more strict, pious, less scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations, where there hath been powerful preaching, without the practice of Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament, then in the Reformed Churches of France, Germany, or Scotland: Our English Ministers and Protestants generally excel all others, notwithstanding their strict Discipline. Inference. Whence we may infer, That the Vindication, though it pretend in the general or face of it, to be for Presbytery, yet it is very clear, that, in aspersing the government of all those Reformed Kingdoms where the practice and power of it hath been, it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world; and though it pull not down the Government quite, yet it weakens the Posts, or judgements of men, on which it stands. I name not See fol. 3. etc. here the other Texts that the Vindication hath pulled out of the building of the Presbyterial Government; for the taking out the Scripture, are like the pulling out the nails and pins from the house, and a loosning of the frame. This I observe, because the Vindication professes so for that Government; though I suppose many such friends, in time, might do as much harm, if not more, than those of the Separation, whom he calls their enemies. Surely, I do believe, France, Germany, Scotland, had rather such Books were not writ in their behalf that opens the evil, corruption, and grievances of their Government so much, But I shall argue further: What need such comparing of the mixed Congregations of several Kingdoms; ours and theirs? Surely they are all corrupt enough, and mixed enough; and a Law for all sorts of sinners to communicate, as the Vindication would have, would not much more referme, because it would then be a kind of Church-priveledge to be a sinner, or a scandalous person; and to be something notoriously wicked, Would be a way of enrighting them to Church-Ordinances, according to the Principles of Vindication, however some fair pretences and Colours are laid on, that we should believe the contrary. But what of all this? I believe there is another reason why the Government hath brought forth no more power of Godliness upon the Kingdoms than the Vinaication observes; because neither the Parishes are constituted, nor yet the Government, according to gospel-order: yet I honour them as Believers, and Brethren in the Lord, according to their light. Yet I observe another secret, why the preaching of the Word thrives better, and reforms more than the Government in these Kingdoms, because that the Preaching of the Word is an Ordinance of the Lord; and when preached or held forth to ungoldly scandalous, and notorious sinners, is but according to its right order of Institution so preached; the end of the Lord is but fully and clearly served; because the Word, in the ministry of it is appointed for a converting Ordinance; but the Government and Discipline being not instituted as a converting Ordinance primatily, but for a people already converted and brought in it cannot be accompanied with such power from heaven, became it is not managed according to pure gospel-order, nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted: so as the fault is not, because there is a Government, as the Vindication observes; but, not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed. And for his Charge against the purer Congregations, as I know not any such doings amongst them; so I will make no Apology for them, because that would bring them within the compass of something like a crime; and I know nothing but well by them. THE NEW QVAERES. Folio 1. Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT & ASSEMBLY. Quaere 1. Whether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament, not backed with Authority of the Civil Magistrate, be not like to prove an impotent, and invalid, and ineffectual means? Whether it be not a far better way, in point of Conscience and Prudence, to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament, not actually excommunicated, though they thereby eat and drink judgement to themselves, then to deprive any to whom it really belongs? Antiquaere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no? For the Vindication questions it, in calling it an invalid thing; and if so, How can any such thing be settled at all as an Ordinance in the Church? Whether aught Authority to join itself with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it? Since nothing hath proved more fatal. Whether excommunication being granted, be any such bare thing, as the Vindication speaks on, so impotent, 〈…〉▪ and ineffectual, without being Authorized from a power from men? And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword? Whether all the differences about Excommunication, be not from the want of true Church-constitution? And whether a national Church be not too wide for the Ordinances, and the Scabbard too big for the Sword? And whether Solomon's Temple and Christ's be all of a largeness, so that one golden 1 Kings 6. 4. Reed will measure both? Whether the old Temple that had Windows of narrow Lights, be any pattern for the new? Whether any thing of Prudence, As admitting scandalous persons to eat their own damnation, as the Vindication saith, Rather than to deprive them, to whom it really belongs, be any Scripture-way of arguing; which forbids us not to do evil that good may come thereby? Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons, seeing, though it may really belong to them, yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing, nor judging, but only by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there, for Administration of Ordinances, can faithfully administer but accordingly; for they that walk according to this Rule, peace be on them, and on the Israel of God. Whether the Law of God in this, be not as equitable as the Law of Man, which judges not of secrets, nor takes cognizance of things unknown? Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons only sin, who if he have a real interest, will not live in the evidence of it, nor walk by the Rule of Administrations, that he may partake? Quaere. 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament, being no Ordinance of Christ without a total suspension, will not be a means rather to harden? And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclaiming, being accompanied with serious Admonitions, Exhortations, public and serious Reprehensions. Reasons. 1. Because that such persons are more hardened by it, total exclusion only working shame. 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent, they will be holy for a day or two, and make vows, etc. and may be so converted. 3. Many then will read, etc. which would not do so before, in an Hypocritical conscience; and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reform. 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations, Exhortations, etc. that ten to one would be converted by such admonition rather than by suspension; therefore Christ when he came to save sinners, permitted Luk. 7. 34, etc. them familiarly to him and his Ordinances. Antiquaere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds, being a questionable Ordinance, as well as suspension, one of them may not be as well made use on, as the other; Suspension as well as Excommunication upon his grounds? Whether the Admonitions, Exhortations, Reprehensions, Examinations, be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to, or rather to quicken and spiritualise the worthy receivers, who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations, as the whole strain of Scripture precept, and practice speak? Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers, as the Scriptures never speak on? For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons, who were constituted according to the Rule; and for Corinth, and the rest, that had such bad Members, they are not examples in that of gathering, or constituting, or administering, but reforming, as the Apostles who calls them to the rule of the Word. This one mistake hath deceived many. 1 Cor. 11. Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly, when he was here in the flest be any rule for admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spiritual Ordinances? And whether there be not a spiritual difference betwixt Christ not offered, and offered, betwixt his conversing in the flesh, for making up the mystery of Redemption; and the mystery of Redemption made up, and finished by the eternal Spirit, in which he offered himself; betwixt Christ in the flesh, and in the Spirit or Ordinance? Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasional converting, to be any rule for his Church or Kingdom in its Administrations or Ordinances, which is a work of another form? And whether this intermingling of carnal and spiritual notions be a Scripture-way? Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly, nor intentionally, for aught we see, nor mystically directed, appointed, or instituted by Christ? And whether such a ground once granted, will not let in one kind of will-worship, as well as another? And for that ten to one, being converted so as he says; Quere, Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted, but rather hardened? Quere 3. Fol. 53. Whether did Christ ever intend, that none but true believers, should receive his Supper, or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it? And the Antagonists grant, that close Hypocrites have an external right; then if these, why not others? Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper, as well as the Word, to be a savour of death to such; and God hath his end in both, the glory of his Justice in the one, as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other. Antiquaere. Whether did not Christ intent, that all should receive or communicate in outward administrations by an external right? And if so, then what ground is there for the visible, imponitent, or known scandalous? Whether if true saving faith were the one part of the Interest, and the external right the other part of it, there be any ground left for the other Communicants? And whether that the Scriptures rule, and purer practice of all Churches in the Gospel, excepting when fall'n, or beside the rule; and the Scripture Cautions do not wholly exclude such scandalous impenitent persons pleaded for, against all other foreign, probable, possible, rational, or Rethoricating consequences and conclusions to the contrary. Whether the glory of God's justice in the judgement upon unworthy receivers, be any ground to take in Communicants for condemnation, since it is full against other Scriptures, that Christ came not into the world to condemn the world; and to save men's lives, not to destroy them; and he would not the death of a sinner? And whether, though finally condemnation be ordered for all such, yet no such thing being formally, externally, dispensatively ordered, any persons ought to be called in for condemnation in such a way? Whether this be not quite against the nature of the Gospel's dispensation; Christ under the Gospel's dispensing himself, and giving out himself, as a Saviour, a Redeemer, and in all the Gospel declining judgement; I come not to judge the world, reserving that work till he appear in his own day to condemnation of sinners, this being only his day of reconciliation to them. Whether the Apostle in Rom. 3. where he saith, But if our righteousness commend the righteousness of God, is God unrighteous, who taketh vengeance? And not rather as we be slanderously reported; and some affirm that we say; Let us do evil, that good may come thereof, doth not parallel this; For the Apostle here though God's righteousness and justice was set forth by his justice upon sinners, yet he did not say as in the Quaere is said, Let us then do evil that God may be glorified, or good may come thereof. Quaere 4. Fol. 53. Whether all Ordinances proving alike good or bad; saving or damning; and impenitent persons, as well increasing their damnation by hearing, praying, fasting, etc. What reason can be rendered by any rational Christian, why such persons should not be admitted to the Sacrament, as to any other Ordinance, or not suspended equally from all? Antiquaere. Whether any such consequence of admission or suspension from Ordinances, aught to be grounded upon damnation or judgement, but rather upon words of command and institution, and Scripture-practice? And if any such appeared, all these Consequences which the Vindication draws forth, wring blood, and not milk from the Word, might be saved; and he need not go so far about, which when all is done, brings a soul, but at best, upon a probable, specious, or real coloured Argument. Whether, since the Vindication pulls down clear Scripture-Texts and grounds in this Controversy, to weaken the building of his Adversary, he ought not in conscience first to have had a clear Word or Institution for Fol. 3, ●, 6, 9 the contrary practice, and not only probable, and literally conclusive grounds, that souls can stand at surest upon; but like men upon Ice, who are in as fair a probability to fall, as stand? And whether having taken away In Fol. 3, 4, 6, 9 the Scripture-Texts for Presbytery itself, he can well hold up any upon his grounds? And whether is not this sceptiall or doubtful way of reasoning upon Scripture; neither pulling quite down, nor building up, a way rather to fill all the rooms with rubbish; and at length, neither to have new building nor old. What man going to build a Tower, sitteth not down first, and seeth what it will cost him, lest having begun, and not able to finish all, men begin to laugh at him, saying, etc. But whether is not all this ado about Ordinances, rather for want of a right and purer constitution of Churches, which would save all this controversy about scandalous and impenitent sinners, when the Church were not troubled with such, where the Ordinances are. P. Well, I am by this time well persuaded; and having heard all this, for my part, I cannot but see that in settling things suddenly upon the Kingdom, and things thus questionable, and unwarrantable in the way of Administration, and a Kingdom so full of impenitent and scandalous sinners, as Parochial Congregations generally are, there is danger of great sin, and great trouble. C. I will therefore add two or three Arguments more, and so conclude. An Experimentall-Argument for pure Churches and Ordinances. THere is a spiritual Antipathy betwixt Grace and Nature, Flesh and Spirit; the Flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the Flesh: and the more spiritual, or more carnal, the more these two contrary Nature's work, and the more powerfully against each other, as in Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael, and the less or more they can bear with each other: As for example: While judas carnal nature or disposition, uninflamed by Satan, boiled and heightened not into any such gross act as selling and betraying of Christ, the Disciples bore with him more, and Christ himself, as he was man and in a state of Infirmity, could more endure him, then upon the breaking out of his sin: and so in Simon Magus, in Ananius and Saphira, and others, whom the Apostles could no longer suffer, not by way of Discipline, or inflicting Censure, but by way of a spiritual contrarinesse to such gross hypocrisy and sin discovered: And so the experiences of all that are of a pure Gospell-temper, will witness to this very Age, in acts of spiritual fellowship and Community, in all acts of Worship, etc. This is founded not only on spiritual antipathies and sympathies, but in natural and civil; natural things of a contrary nature, bearing one another no less; and things of a civil nature, yet contrary doing the like. Hence arise separations merely natural, and sensitive, and rational: Hence arises a particular Schism and separation in all the things of the world, and a secret gathering and contracting of things from the contrary into the same kind: the common purity being lost, as the Apostle implies, Rom. 8. by which Nature did at first more universally agree, as if one common spirit had been in it. And thus it was in the Churches of God at first, when three, four, or five thousand did agree in one way of spiritual fellowship, Doctrine, breaking of bread, and Prayers; but we see there is not now such pourings out of spirit upon multitudes and Nations, that a national-church should be together in such a unity of spirit. And under the Law there was even a weaker example in the people of the Jews, being taken out from the people of the world and naturally hating all that were common and unclean, as the Gentiles: And before the Law, the people of God did gather into Families and particular societies; as in A●●●●am, etc. And those Families, the children of the Bondwoman and of the free never bearing but persecuting each other. So as all of pure spiritual constitution, cannot but experimentally find a spiritual nature in themselves, working them into a more glorious fellowship then that of the world. The sum of the Argument. If then there be two contrary natures of Spirit and Flesh; if these cannot, nor never could, in experience of all Age●, and according to the truth in Scriptures, and example of all there, bear each other into the same spiritual society or fellowship; if nature itself in the creatures run out into antipathies and sympathies, that is into particular gatherings and separations, mutual opposings and resistings of each other when together: Then spiritual and unmixed Communion and Fellowship from the world, and men of the world, is warrantable. But all this is undeniably true, to the experience of all: Therefore spiritual unmixed Communion and Fellowship from the world, and men of the world, is warrantable. II. Argument from the Power of Spiritual Ordinances and Dispensations. THe Gospel-Ordinances brought into the World a power, and spiritual Law in them, though in degrees and measures, and several givings out, as in John's time, and his Disciples, in Christ's own time, and his Disciples, and in the Spirits time, and according to these times of manifestation, believers were wrought upon: in John's time they came out to the Baptism of Water; in Christ's and his Disciples, to the preaching of the Word; in the Spirits time, to the Baptism of the Spirit, to a more mighty and glorious working; and all these times of Gospel-manifestation, had a prevailing loss, and more upon the believers of these several times, in drawing them out from the World in part, though weakly: in John's time, it is said, Then came out unto him all Judea; yet though they were Baptised of him, they gathered not off into such particular societies, as after, The Kingdom of God then was but at hand in Christ's time, though his preaching was powerful, yet he let out the glory of his spirit, but sometimes with the Word, reserving his more glorious manifestations for other times; and even here, though Christ's preaching gathered in his Apostles and Disciples into some particular, and nearer way to himself, yet not many more; nay, he rather left many, partly in that mixed condition of society he found them; and so the Disciples Commission which was given, was to preach but little yet of Church- gathering, but by way of Prophecy, as in Matt. 16. and 18. The Kingdom of God was but yet at hand, not come: In the Spirits time, than the Kingdom of God was come, and then a mighty operation and measure of the Spirit was poured out, and then the believers through the powerful working, were brought more off from the World, and began to gather in closer to Christ, and one another. And now all power was given to Christ, which was not before his Matt. 8. Ephes. 4. 8, 11. Resurrection, and now he sets up a Kingdom; All power is given into my hands and now the Kingdom begins to be set up in the hearts and practice of believers, and the Spirit to mould and cast the believers into Brotherhoods and societies, and the form of a Kingdom; and now the Laws and spiritual policy are given out for ordering this Kingdom: And we see how the people of God in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, drew off from the world, in the things of the Lord. We see then how the Word did begin to work Believers into a fellowship from the world; and the more the spirit was given, the more and more off from the world, in all these several times: And it is a rational truth, and a clear conclusion, even to mere reason, that the more Christ, and his Spirit is in any, the more near and close they will gather up to heaven and walkings with God; and the more Christward any one is, the more off still from the multitude of the world: And thus the Ordinances of Jesus Christ, in which the Spirit breathes so powerfully, work men off from the mixed world, into fellowship with the Lord, and that spiritual fellowship makes them rejoice more in one another, then in any other that are more carnal: The more men live to Christ, the more they die to the world, and are form into the fellowship of his death and Resurrection. The sum of the Argument. If then the Ordinances and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ had ever a power in some degree of prevailing upon the souls of Believers, according to the manifestation of the Spirit: and if this Spirit, flowing from God and Christ, carry up the soul to God and Christ, according to the measure given to those Believers; and if the more they are carried towards Christ, the more they must come off from the world: Then congregational or Church-order wherein Believers are gathered into fellowship with God in Christ and one another from the world, in the things of the Gospel, and unmixed communion, is warrantable. But all this is undeniably true from the Word. Therefore Church-fellowship and unmixed Communion is warrantable. Argument III. IF mixed communion and society came in upon the Apostasy and falling Rev. cha. 2, 3▪ away, and Parochial Congregations were form up afterwards from such mixed Communion: If as Antichrist prevailed, so darkness and corruption prevailed upon Believers: If Churches were called Golden Candlesticks Rev. ●▪ ●▪ 1 Cor. 1. 9 Ephes.. ● 19 etc. before and a Fellowship of Saints, and the Body of Christ, and Kingdom of God, till they grew mixed: If the mixed Congregations by Parishes came in first by Dyonisius Bishop of Rome, in the year 267. and in England by 2 Cor. 6. 5, 16, 7. Honorius Bishop of Canterbury; and people were only made Congregations See the learned Mr. S●●den. Book●● ●● decimi●. by conveniency of situation, and the Law of Civil Policy: If Parishes were first the seats of Popery, and after the seats of Prelacy and now fall under the Presbytery in the same kind and Notion of a mixed multitude: Then mixed and Parochial Congregations are not that way and order of Christ for Ordinances which was the Primitive way revealed and practised in the Gospel But all this is undeniably true from the best Historians: Therefore not mixed Communion and fellowship, but pure and unmixed, is the only Ordinance of Christ. Now I shall leave you for the present, and commend particulars unto you and the Kingdom: the one, A Rule of Evidences for Spiritual Communion, drawn from the Scriptures; the other, A remarkable passage in the Book of Vindication. The Rule of Evidences for Spirituall-Communion. MAtth. 15. 26. Chap. 18. 19, 20. Joh. 10. 16. Acts 2. 44, 46. Chap. 19 9 Rom. 1. 7. Chap. 16. 17, 18. 1 Cor. 1. 1, 10. Chap. 5. 4, 5, 11, 13. and 12. 12, 13, 14, 20, 25, 27▪ 2 Cor. 5. 6, 7. Chap. 6. 14, 15, 16, 17. Gal. 5. 9, 10, 12, 13. Chap. 6. 16. Ephes. 4. 3, 4, 25▪ Chap. 5. 1, 2, 11, 12, 21, 30. P●il. 3. 15, 16, 17. 1 Thes. 3. 6. 2 Thes. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 6. 3, 4, 5. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3. 10. Heb. 10 ●●. 1 Pet. 2. 9 1 Joh. 1. 7. 2 Joh. v. 10, 11. Revel. 2. 14, 15, 20. Chap, 18. 4. and 19 20. A remarkable Passage in the Vindication-Booke. ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament, and the Parliament prescribe severe Temporal Laws and Punishments against them, and appoint good Civil Magistrates to see them duly executed, inflicted; I am confident, that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one half year, than all the Church-Discipline and Censures now so eagerly contested for, will do in an Age, and will be the only true way and speediest course to reform both Church and State at once; which I hope the Parliament will consider of, and take care, that our Ministers (like the Bishops formerly) may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing, but Preaching and Instructing, which is work enough, wholly to engross their time and thoughts. FINIS. LEt this Way of Peace and Reconciler among Brethren, entitled, The Smoke in the Temple (more than ordinarily useful in these times be printed. Imprimatur, JOHN BACHILER. The Smoke in the Temple. WHEREIN IS A DESIGN FOR PEACE & RECONCILIATION of Believers of the several OPINIONS of these Times about ORDINANCES, to a Forbearance of each other in Love, and Meekness, and Humility. With the opening of each Opinion, and upon what SCRIPTURES each is grounded. With the several EXCEPTIONS which may be made against each Opinion from the SCRIPTURES. With one Argument for Liberty of Conscience, from the national CONVENANT. With another Argument to prove the Gospel, or New Testament of jesus Christ the very Word of God; Tendered to all the Believers, to show them how little we have attained, and there is a more glorious Fullness to be revealed. With a Discovery of the Antichristian way of Peace, etc. for Opinions. With a full Answer to Master LEY, One of the Assembly of Divines, against my late New Quaere. With some spiritual Principles drawn forth of the Controversy. Rev. 15. 8. And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power: and and no man was able to enter into the Temple, till the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled. By john Saltmarsh, Preacher of the Gospel at Brasteed in KENT. THE THIRD EDITION. Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Sign of the Black Spread-Eagle, at the West-End of S. PAUL'S. 1646. To the Right Honourable the Lord Viscount SAY and SEAL, and Lieutenant General CROMWELL. Noble Patriots, IF I mistake not, you may here single out something of the Lords from what is mine, and discern some beams of God amongst many things of man. I know the candle of the Lord cannot shine any where with more snuff than in me; however since the Lord hath lighted it, I dare not but let it shine (or rather glimmer) before men. I have writ your Names to my Book that I may be one of your Remembrancers amongst the rest to the advancement of Truth; not but they who know ye, know ye to be acted by a Spirit of Truth in yourselves. The Lord remember ye according to all the good ye have done (in your several Ministrations) to this people; and do that for ye which gives you most, and yet takes most from ye, even filling ye with himself; till he hath emptied ye of all but his own glory, and gathered ye up into the fullness and righteousness of himself in Christ, where we are only nothing in our selves, and every thing in him; and surely the most, and best and greatest thing he can do for the sons of men, is, thus to make them nothing in their own account, that he that glorieth may glory in the lord I may seem strange to wish ye thus; but I know it is not strange to ye, who know the Mystery of the Spirit, and of Christ. My Lord, and Sir, Go on still, yet still laying your designs in a glory above that of States and Kingdoms, and involving all your Counsels there, where there is most of Heaven, and least of the world. So prays, Your Servant in the Lord, JOHN SALTMARSH. To the Believers of several Opinions for outward Ordinances or dispensations, scandalously called Independents, Presbyterians, Anabaptists, Seekers. Brethren, I Have fairly set down how far each of you have attained in the Mystery of Truth; and surely we are all short of the glory which shall be revealed in the Temple or Church of God; and there are such clouds rolling about each opinion, that may darken it, or something of it, So as things are not so clear as they are commonly taken by each of us; If any man think he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he 1 Cor. 8. 2. ought to know: So as the common ignorance and infirmity amongst us, may be a rise for a common Unity amongst us: and seeing we all come out of Babylon (though in several ways) to the glorious Temple or Tabernacle which God hath sent down to be with men, and walk thus diversely thither; yet our several and distinct goings are but like so many Travellers to the City of London; some travel from the North, some from the South, and from the West, some from the East, yet all thither; though too, there may be some mistaking of the way in each, because of the little light that is abroad. The gathering of the Saints into the Heaven, or Kingdom below, in this day of Revelation, is like the gathering at the last day, which shall be all into one glorious Body, though the gathering shall be from the four winds or ends of the Earth, by the several Trumpets or Angels. One thing I have more. Let us seek for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, to open to us the Mystery of the Scriptures called The Revelation; for in that Book is the Prophecy of the Churches laid up, and the seasons and times for Truth revealed. Let us search and seek out by the Spirit of jesus, even that jesus which was in the Vision, and gave it out to john; for there is none found worthy to open the Book with Seals but the Lamb. Surely in the Mystery of Angels, Vials, Sea of glass with fire, Temple with Smoke, the Angel with the everlasting Gospel, the Angel enlightening the Earth, the Whore in scarlet and precious pearls, the Cup of abomination, the Beast like a Lamb, the Image of the Beast, the Horus and Kings of the Earth, the mark in the forehead and in the right hand, the buying and selling, the Tabernacle of God with men, the first and second Resurrection, the Ihron● of God, the pure Crystal River of water, the Holy jerusalem descending from God, etc. In these is much of the glory wrapped up, and from these shall the Truth we contend for, appear to our further enlightening. Yet one thing more. We that are thus contenders for Ordinances, for the Temple and the Vessels in it, let us take heed we forget not him who is greater than the Temple; for one greater than the Temple is here It would be spiritually considered, that while we strive for the Vessels and Cups, we spill not the Wine. And it ought to be so carried by all of us, that▪ because we are so much in opinion, we may not be thought to place Religion there, as I fear too many do, making a Christ of the very Ordinance of Christ, and pressing some outward Ordinances of the Gospel so legally; as some hearing such a power of Salvation put into them, and finding an outward dispensation more easily got then the spiritual, make haste thither only, and then sit down as saved under a mere outward Ordinance. The Lord grant that we may neither undervalue an Ordinance nor the least Institution of jesus Christ, nor raise it up into a jesus Christ, and set up the Law above or beside the Lawgiver. We must now learn to know jesus Christ less after the flesh, and not to embody salvation in a mere outward dispensation, and so incarnate jesus Christ over again from the glory and spirituality he is in. Brethren, farewell; For my part, I am fully assured from Scriptures of the Church of Christ here, or Gospell-fellowship of the Saints; and unto this If any man wi●● do his will, he shall know of the Doctrine, joh. 7. 17. fellowship with the Father and the Son, I endeavour; and I have one way to reveal Truth to me which I cannot conceal, nor yet cannot practise as I would, and that is this; To see Truth by living in the power of Truth, and by first obtaning Jesus Christ to live in us in the power of his suffering, death, and Resurrection; for surely Jesus Christ must do all (though more gloriously and spiritually) over again in his, which he did in himself. If Jesus Christ the Light be in us, the light by which every outward dispensation is seen, will flow in; for where the Sun is, there will be every beam with it. THE CONTENTS. A way of Peace, or a Design for Reconciliation. 1 GOds Love the first and last glorious V●ion to be considered, to draw us to Unity. Page 1 2 Names of Sect and Division to be laid down. p. 2 3 Passions and Rail forborn. Ibid. 4 Reviling each other for infirmities forborn. Ib. 5 The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause. Ib. 6 Liberty for Printing and Speaking. Ibid. 7 Let all subscribe their names to what they Print. Ibid. 8 Let all be severally accountable. pag. 3 9 Free Debates, and open conferences. Ibid. 10 Let us call Believers, though of several Opinions, if the name of Brethren cannot be justly allowed. Ib. 11 No Believers to esteem too highly of themselves for what they attain to. Ibid. 12 No assuming infallibility over each other. p. 4 13 No civil power drawn into advantages. Ib. 14 Tenderness in offending each other in things of an outward nature. Ibid. 15 Several Opinions from the Gospel's first discovery, yet all believers. p. 5 16 No despising for too much Learning, or too little. Ibid. 17 We be one in Christ, though divers, Ibid. 18 The Spiritual Persecution to be forborn. Ib. The Unwarrantable Way of Peace, or the Antichristian Design for Reconciliation. TO believe as the Church or Councils. p. 6 ●o set up o●e as the Pope, for Infallibility. Ib. To allow that all may be saved in their several ways. p. 7 To forbid Interpreting and Disputes. Ibid. By a compulsive power. Ibid. The Opinions of these times. ● Resbytery so called, what it is, and what they hold. p. 8 ●ceptions against Presbytery. p. 9 ● dependency so called, what it is, and what they hold. Ibid. ●ceptions against Independency. p. 10 ●abap●isme so called, what it is, and what they hold. p. 12 Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism. Ibid. Seeking, or Seekers so called; what their Way is, and what they hold. p. 16 Exceptions against them, Ibid. Conclusion. p. 19 The Gospel, or New Testament, proved undeniably to be the very Word of God. p. 20 One Argument from the national Covenant (Art. 1 and 2.) for Liberty of Conscience. p. 23 Objections against it, answered. p. 25, 26 Spiritual Principles drawn forth of the Controversy. gospel-truth one and the same. p. 60 Prudence and Consequences, are the great Engines of Will-worship. Ibid. The People are Brethren and Saints in Christ's Church; but in Antichrists, Parishioners and servants. p. 61 Presbytery itself is founded on Principles of Separation, which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churches●ay, is the greatest Separation. p. 62 None to be forced under Christ's Kingdom, as in the Kingdoms of the world. Ibid. The power of a formal Reformation, in a Government, makes it not Christ's Government. p. 63 The visible Church or Communion, is the Image of the invisible or mystical. p. 64 How Christ is a King of the Nations and of the Church▪ and how an Head. Ibid. The Presbyterial Government and the Worlds, of the same equal Dominion. p. 65 The national, and congregational Church-covenant, both lawful, or both unlawful. Ibid. We receive and give out Truth by parts. p. 66 All Cove●an●ers are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State. p. 67 We are to try Truth, and so receive it in its degrees. p. 67 No Churchway Independency. p. 68 A spirit of Love and Meekness becomes Believers. Ib. When a State-conscience is fully persuaded; doubtful, and so sinning. Ibid. A Postscript. with Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyterial way. p. 69 A WAY OF PEACE: OR, A Design of Reconciliation. How the Believers of several Opinions, scandalously called Presbyterians, Independents, Anabaptists, Seekers, may be reconciled to forbear one another. (1) Gods love the first and last glorious Union to be considered, to draw us to Unity. ONe way, is, to consider love as it is in God, and flowing from him upon the creature: God is love, and he 1 john 4. 8. 1 john 4. 16. that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him. Now the more love there is in any, the more of God there is in any. Satan, the first fountain of sin, made the first Schism in the glorious Communion: All was one, and in one glory, till the first division, Luke 10. 18▪ Matth. 24. 12. and till Satan fell like lightning; and he envying the whole Creation, which was in love with itself, and him that made it, drew it into sin, and antipathies, and mutual persecutions; and when it began to leave loving him that was pure and infinite love, it began to hate it self, and divide from it self: So as the less love, the more of Satan, and sin. The consideration of God's love to himself, which 1 john 4. 8. 1 john 3. 6. john 13. 1. is infinite, of his love to his, which is no less infinite, because to sinners; and of his Sons love, spiritually uniting himself here, and gloriously hereafter, into one Body and Communion, cannot but make us love one another. (2) Names of Sects and Division to be laid down. Let all names and notes of distinction taken up by way of scandal and reproach, be laid down and forborn; names and notions are like Standards and several Colours in wars, whereby men are gathered into several Orders, Armies, and bodies of division, one against another; one saith I am of Paul, and 1 Cor. 1. 12, 3 I of Apollo, and I of Cephas; Is Christ divided? (3) Passions and rail forborn. Let a spirit of meekness run in the artery of Preaching and Printing: Let not passions, evil speaking, rail, which inflame and do not edify, be heard Prov. 6. ●8. amongst us: the angry stir up strife; wherefore let all bitterness, wrath, malice, with evil speaking, be put away from you. (4) Reviling each other for infirmities forborn. Let there be no rifling into each others infirmities, to the advantaging or disadvantaging the cause: What is any thing of the man to the thing itself? Phil. 1. 15, 16, 17, 18. What is ones darkness to the light he professes? Any one's errors to a single truth? There is rubbish enough every where if swept from every corner. (5) The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause. Let not the miscarriages, the failings, the sins, the hypocrisy, etc. of any that profess a Truth, with others, be charged upon the Truth he or they Luke 2●, 58, 60 Gal. 2. 12, 13, 14. profess, making such sins to be the sins of opinion, not of the Person, as one of late, who hath charged the unfortunate end of one, as a fruit of separation, See M. Bayly his Dissuasive. Acts 1. 25. whereas he might so argue against the very Doctrine of Christ, because of one judas, who did the like to himself. (6) Liberty for Printing and speaking. Let there be liberty of the Press for Printing, to those that are not allowed Pulpits for Preaching: let that light come in at the window which 1 Thes. 5 19 cannot come in at the door, that all may speak and write one way that cannot another: let the Waters of the Sanctuary have issue, and spring up Valleys as well as Mountains. (7) Let all subscribe their names to what they Print. Let all that Preach or Print, affix their names, that we may know from whom: the contrary is a kind of unwarrantable modesty at the best: if it be truth they write, why do they not own it? if untruth, why do they write? Some such must either suppress themselves for shame or fear; and they that Prov. 28 1. dare not own what they do, they suspect the Magistrate, or themselves. (8) Let all be severally accountable. Let all that Teach or Print be accountable, yet in a several way; if it be matter of immediate disturbance and trouble to the State, let them account for it to the Magistrate, under whom we are to live a peaceable and quiet life; 1 Tim. 2. 2. if matter of Doctrine, etc. let them be accountable to the Believers and Brethren who are offended by conference, where there may be mutual Gal. ●. 1 ●. conviction and satisfaction. (9) Free Debates and open Conferences. Let there be free debates, and open conferences, and communication for all, and of all sorts that will, concerning difference in spirituals: where doors are not shut, there will be no breaking them open▪ so where debates are free, there is a way of vent and evacuation, the stopping of which hath caused more troubles in the States than any thing: for where there is much new wine in old bottles, the working will be such as the Parable speaks on; still allowing the State to secure all tumults or disturbances. (10) Let us call Believers, though of several opinions, if the Name Brethren cannot be justly allowed. Let all who pretend to come out of the Antichristian State, be acknowledged as those several jews and Christians, who came out of judaism and Acts 21. 20 1 Cor. 8. 7, 8, 10 Gentilism in the Apostles times; some were more and some less zealous of the Law, yet all Believers; some made conscience of the Idol, and sacrifice, some not. (11) No Believers to esteem too highly of themselves for what they attain to. Because we are but yet comings out of Babylon, and the fall of Babylon not yet, the Smoke yet in the Temple, the Angels but pouring out the Vials, the Rev. 5. 6. Rev. 18. 1. Angel that enlightens the earth with glory not yet flying through the heavens; let not any account of themselves to have attained any thing yet as they ought, or to know there is not any Church or Believers; but if one see more of one truth, another may see more of another; if one see one thing for a truth, another sees another thing for a truth, and yet all see short of the fullness of truth; there is so much want, darkness, and so little light or glory in each, as is rather matter of humiliation and praise, then glorying and exception one against another: If any man think he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know, 1 Cor. 8. 2. (12) No assuming infallibility over each other. Let us not, being under no further degree of the revelation of Truth, and coming out of Babylon, assume any power of infallibility to each other; so as to force up all to our light or degree of knowing or practising; for there lies as much on one side for compulsion, as on another, respectively to one another; for another's evidence is as dark to me as mine to his, and mine to his as his to me, till the Lord enlighten us both for discerning alike; So as when there is no power in us to make that appear to another which appears to Matth. 7 1, 2. us, there can be no reasonable equity for any enforcing or compelling in spirituals. The first great rent betwixt the Eastern and Western Kingdoms, began when the Bishop of Rome would needs excommunicate the East, for not believing as they believed. (13) No Civil Power drawn into advantages. Let not those Believers who have the advantage of the Magistrate, strive to make any unwarrantable use of it one against another, because Scripture principles are not so clear for it, and because they know not the revolution of Providence, and we are to do as we would be done to: That very day which should have been a bloody day to the jews, was turned into the contrary; Esther and the Jews had power over them. (14) Tenderness in offending each other, in things of an outward nature. Let there be much tenderness in not offending each other, but pleasing one another to edification: Paul would not offend the Idolatrous weak: The 1 Cor. 9 ●0. Rom. 15. 2. weakest and most superstitious makes most conscience of outward things; and the strong should know, that Idol or Idoll-Temple is nothing: Many a one are more offended at Truth by the carriage of another, who sometimes reforms with as much superstition, as the other offends. It is as much below 1 Cor. 8. 9 Rom. 14. 17. the glory of the Gospel to think one place unholy, as holy: No place can defile now Salomon's Temple is not standing; yet let all Truth be brought forth peaceably: Truth and Peace can offend nothing but that which may be justly offended, which is the corruption, not the person. (15) Several Opinions from the Gospel's first discovery, yet all Believers. Consider the differences and several Opinions from the first discovery of the Gospel: Some believed not Christ's sufferings and Resurrection; as the john 20 9 Disciples whom yet Christ took to him, and walked with, and counted as his: Some believed not the Holy-Ghost, nor Christ's Baptism, and were zealous Luke 24. 26. john 3. 25. Acts 21. 20. Mat. 11. 1, 2, 5● of the Law, and yet the Disciples counted them as Believers. John's Disciples would have followed john only; but john sent two of them to Christ at one time and told them again he must increase, but himself must decrease. Christ in his time would not forbid any that went about in his Muke 9 38. Luke 9 49. Name; There is none that doth any thing in my Name, can lightly speak evil of me. When the Spirit was given, the Disciples bore one another out of the Church, as the Believers of john's Baptism, and the zealots of the Law, and A●●s 19▪ 2, 3. one another in the Church; they that did eat, them that did not eat; and they that regarded a day, them that regarded not a day; walking together as far as they attained by the same rule. (16) No despising for too much learning, or too little. Let not one despise another for gifts, parts, learning: let the Spirit be heard speak in the meanest: let not the Scribe or Disputer of the Law despise the Fishermen, nor they despise them because Scribes and Disputers: The Spirit is 1 Th●ss 5. 20. in Paul as well as Peter; in both as well as one. (17) We may be in one Christ, though divers. Consider that we may be one in one Christ, though we think diversely; and we may be Friends, though not Brethren: and let us attain to Union, though not to Unity. (18) The spiritual Persecution to be forborn. Consider there is a twofold Persecution: There is a spiritual or that of Believers, and a mixed Persecution, or civilly Ecclesiastical: The spiritual Persecution is that of the Spirit merely, and this kind of Persecution little thought on and studied; this is when we cannot be are one another's several Opinions or soul-belief, in the same spiritual Society, or fellowship, but they must either be of us, or out of us; and surely, this kind of Persecution is as unreasonable as any other; for what is this but soul-compulsion, when another Phi. 3. 2, 5, 16. must only believe as we believe, and not wait till the Lord reveal even this? This kind of spiritual compulsion will in time break and dissolve the visible Communion of Saints, and Body of Christ exceedingly, if taken up or continued; and it will be amongst Christians, as amongst the Antichristians where they divide and subdivide, and some cast themselves into a Monkery from all the rest: jerusalem and Antioch were not of this way, to cast out one another Acts 15 3, 4. upon such grounds, but to meet, reason, and counsel, and hear: And surely the Churches can ill complain of a mixed persecution from without, if they persecute one another from within; the Magistrate may as justly whip them both, as they whip one another: Such grudge, complain, dissolvings, spiritual inforcing, gives hint to the Civil power to compel, while it beholds them but a little more spiritually compelling one another: Let all Church-rights, 1 Cor. 13. 12. Col▪ 3. 13. 1 Cor. 8. 2. privileges, boundaries be preserved; all Heresy and Schism by the rule rebuked, but in all spiritual meekness and wisdom, and not call Heretic and Schismatic too suddenly, since we see but in part. THE UNWARRANTABLE WAY OF PEACE: Or, The Antichristian Design of Reconciliation. (1) To believe as the Church or Counsels. THat all should believe as the Church believes; and this Church is the great Counsels of Bishops, Cardinals, &c▪ as if the souls of all were to be saved only in the bundle of theirs, as if they could believe both enough for themselves and all others. (2) To set up one as the Pope, for infallibility. Because there may be difference amongst many, and all may not agree, therefore there shall be one (say they) with the Vrim and Thummim, one infallibly decreeing, and interpreting, and unerring, to whom the Spirit of Truth is successively derived; and his determinations, interpretations, shall be final, conclusive; and this that Vicar of Christ, the Pope this one way in the Antichristian State, and all Reformed Kingdoms were once under this Peace. (3) To allow that all may be saved in their several ways. Because there be several Believers, and several interpretations and opinions, one saying, This is the way, and another That, therefore say some, All in all ways may be saved, every one believing every thing. Now this is one way to make peace, but not the way; there is but one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism. (4) To forbid Interpreting and Disputes. Because several opinions arise by interpretings and dispute about Scripture, therefore all openings of the Word, all dispute must be forborn: Because the Sunshine offends some weak sight in the house, shut up doors and windows, and make all dark. Thus the Papists and Prelates in forbidding Scriptures and Marginal Notes; and thus fearing there may be something false, they will hear nothing that's true. (5) By a compulsive power. Some take the Civil power in to make peace, reckoning a compulsive Uniformity for Unity, Peace, and Truth. This is one way to deal with the body indeed, but not with the soul; to mind the outward man, but not the inward. This way of Civilly Ecclesiastical peace is the Antichristian design, who having got the Kings of the Nations to give their strength, and power, and Rev. 17. 17. Kingdom unto them, supplies that from the world which they want from the Word, making the spiritual power of jesus Christ to receive its honour, life, efficacy, power, from the power of men. This way of peace is such as hath by experience troubled Nations, and troubled it self at length too; and broken it self against that way which it aimed to break: For whosoever falls upon this stone shall be broken, and on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall break Luk. ●8. 18. them to powder. THE OPINIONS OF THESE TIMES: With the Exceptions each Opinion may be charged withal; being the great Argument for Love, Meekness, and Forbearance one to another, or of Peace and Reconciliation till the Lord reveal more. Presbytery, So called; What it is, and what they hold. THe Presbytery is set up by an * Mat. 18. 15. Acts 15. 19, 28, 31. and 16 4. 1 Tim. 4. 14. Titus 1. 5. 1 Tim. 1. 2. Titus 1 6. Acts 13. 1. 1 Cor. 12. 17. alleged Pattern of the Eldership and Presbytery of the Apostles and Elders in the first Churches of the Gospel, strengthened by such Scriptures as are in the margin, and by allusion to the Jewish Government, and to appeals in Nature. Their Churches are Parochial, or Parishes, as they are divided at first by the Romish Prelates and the Statute-Laws of the State. Which Parishes and Congregations are made up of such Believers as were made Christians first by Baptism in Infancy, and ‖ Acts 6 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 4. 14. Eph. 4. 11, 12. Heb. 13. 17. Act. 20. 28, 29. Rev. 2. 14, 20. not by the Word: And all the Parishes or Congregations are under them, as they are a Classical, Provincial, and national Presbytery; And over those Parishes they do exercise all Church-power and Government ‖; which may be called, The power of the Keys. Exceptions. 1. THe Apostolical and Primitive Eldership were not so * Acts 15. 22, 25, 29. 2 Cor. 1. 24. 1 Pet. 5. 3. 1 Tim. 5. 1. Mat. 20 15. ‖ Acts 15. 29. john 16 13. Gal. 1. 12. Acts 2. 43. authoritative over their Congregations as these pretend, nor so compulsive or forcing their respective Congregations. 2. The Apostolical Eldership and Presbytery were more ‖ infallible; they were more in the light, and the immediate way of the revelation of Truth. 3. They took not in the power of the * Mark 10. 42 Luke 2●. 25. john 18. 36. ‖ Acts 1. 15. & 15. 23. & 14. 23. Magistrate to help them, nor did they clasp it as one with their own. 4. They consisted of ‖ Brethren as well as of the Presbytery, and both together had a joint interest and concurrency in all power. 5. The Presbyteries were not as now, Classical, Provincial, national: these are no Scripture-forms, but devises of men. 1. Tim. 6. 3. Mat. 15. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 6. The * Acts 20. 17. & 15 4. ‖ Mat. 16. 11. & 13. 3. john 6. 12. Presbytery is of no more in the Greek, then of a ‖ metaphorical or figurative signification, signifying Seniority or Eldership: and the setting it up in a notion of power and office, is more than the Scriptures will clearly bear: such Notions in the Word, are but Notions of form and order, not of Office. 7. The Presbyteries now are not rightly constituted, because they consisted of a Ministry from * Rev. 13. 16. Mat. 7. 14, 15, 16, 17. Antichrist, and the Bishops of Rome, ordaining john 10. 1, 5. Acts 19 15. ‖ ● Cor. 14. 23. Acts 6. 3. 1 Cor. 1. 12. one another by the same power they received from them. 8. Their ‖ Congregations are not such as before, so constituted; because Parishes are of a Popish and politic constitution. 9 Baptism is not to be received by Generation now, as Circumcision was, but by * john 3. 5. Acts ●. 31. ‖ Gal. 3. 7. Ephes. 1. 15. Acts 3 22. Regeneration or visible Profession, as at first: Nor are the carnal seed now any more children of Abraham, but the ‖ Faithful: And no Ordinance is now to be administered upon legal consequence, but upon Gospell-precept. Independency, So called; What it is, and what they hold. THe people of God are only a a 1 Pet 2. 5. 1 Cor. 1. 2, 9 Col. 1. 2. ● Cor. 6. 16, 17. Acts 2. 41, 42. Revel. 3. 1. 17. Acts 9 26 Church, when called by the Word and Spirit into Consent or Covenant, and Saints by profession; and all b Matt. 18 15, 16, 17, 18, 20. Mat. 16. 18, 19 Church-power is laid in here, and given out from hence into c ● Cor 12. 28 Ephes. 4. 11. Pastorship and Elders, etc. and a just d Acts 6. 3, 5. and 15. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 15. distribution of Interest betwixt Elders and People. All spiritual Government is here, and not in any power foreign or extrinsical to the Congregation or authoritative: Their children are made Christians first by Infant-baptisme, and after by the Word: and they are baptised by a e 1 Cor. 7. 14. Acts 2. 39 Rom. 11. 16. foederal or covenant-holiness, or Birth-priveledges, as under the Law, They may enjoy all f Acts 2. 42. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Ordinances in this estate, and some may g 1 Cor. 14. 22, 6, 11, 4. Prophesy. Exceptions. 1. THat there is not such a power radically or fundamentally placed in the Church to make Pastors and Elders, etc. because there is, first, no such practice in the Word, but rather of an Apostolical or a Matt. 28. 18. & 18. 18, 19 Acts 14. 21, 22 23. Ministerial power, which made or gathered Churches first, not Churches them. 2. The Eldership and Presbytery of Apostles and Elders did b Acts 15 6. & 14. 23. ● Tim. 4 14. Acts 6. 2▪ 6. principally act, and authoritatively act, and not the whole Church or people; they in a lower and less Interest, in a way of choice or vote and consent. 3. That which is called Ordination, etc. was by the Apostles, and a power established in the c Acts 14. 23. 1 Tim. 4 14. Presbytery not in the Church, as mere Believers. 4. They that were Baptised by an d Reve 13. 16. john 10. 1, 5. Mat. 7 14 etc. Antichristian power, are no right Baptised Members of Churches; and yet so are all of their Churches as were Baptised under Prelacy; the power of the dispenser being Antichristian and the subject or e Matt. ●8 18, 19 & 3. 6. 9 Acts 8. 37 Infant no visible Believer for that Ordinance. 5. Their Church consists not all of visible Saints or Believers, according to their own f 1 Cor. 1. 2. 1 et, 2: 5 etc. john 3. ●. Principle: for their children being baptised, and in that condition, are no actual visible Saints; all their Church are not living stones, nor visibly holy. And it may be more clearly proved that mere civil and moral men are rather to be admitted of their Church-society then such as children are, who are but merely naturally visible; neither spiritually, civilly, nor morally visible. 6. That of foederal holiness in * 1 Co. 7. 14. 1 Cor. 7. 14. is only to satisfy a scruple; that if Vnbeleeving made wife or husband unholy, it made children unholy too, and so both or none, must be put away. 7. There is no carnal seed now to be sealed, Christ being come in the flesh; which g Gal. 3. 16. Rom. 4. 16. john 3. 6. flesh before, had a Seal of Circumcision; but there is no such h Matth. 3. 9 external privilege now, by any such right. 8. All Consequences drawn from Circumcision, are of no more force than from the i 1 Cor. 10. 1, 2, 3, 4. cloud and the k 1 Cor. 10. ●, 2, 3, 4. 1 Pet. 3. 21. Sea, and the rock, and Noah's Ark, and other typical and figurative places in the Word, nor can any legal or probable Scriptures make any Law or Rule for any such Gospell-administration, which is not directly and in l john 15. 14. Acts 3. 2●. Scripture-words to be found. 9 children's Baptism in the Church is a way never to have a Church of such m Mat. 3. 5, 6. Acts 2. 41. and 8. 12. & 10. 48. Ephes. 5. 26. Baptised Believers as in the Apostles times. 10. Baptism being a n Rome 4. 11. 1 Cor. 14. 22. visible sign, cannot rationally be administered upon one that cannot see nor discern what is done, to whom the water can be no o Acts 22. 16. sign, but they are only told of it when they come to age: and how can it hold proportion with Circumcision, when as that was a p Rom. 4. 11. Gen. 17 11. mark remaining in the flesh when they came to age to signify to them? But water is like a flash of q Mat 24. 27. lightning which must be taken by the Believer in that quick and r james 1. 23. vanishing act, or else it hath no s Rome 6. 3, 4. Acts 22. 16. sensible efficacy to which it was instituted; nor doth the Believer thus any other way enjoy it but by way of History, or a thing past and done, which he never saw. Baptism is as a flash of lightning, (as it is well observed by one;) Circumcision was as a fixed Star; so much difference in these two Rites. 11. Institution of Baptism is to t Acts 2 38 Rome 6. 3. 4. Gal. 3. 27 Col. 2. 12. Mat. 28. 18, 19 Heb 6 ●. Mark 16. 15, 16. duty as well as grace, which children cannot perform, and so answer the sign. 12. Institution of Baptism is doctrinal in the very act of it, as is acknowledged by all the present Baptism, Matth. 28. Baptising them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost etc. Now this implies a capable and teachable subject. 13. Their Churches are not distinct from other Societies Antichristian, because there is no visible gifts by which their Churches are u Ephes. 4. 11, 12. visibly qualified from any other Societies, and according to the promises of gifts in Ephes. 4. 11. nor no such Church-gifts as in 1 Cor. 12. etc. where there was the w 1 Cor. 12▪ 8, 9, 10 Acts 2. 38. and 2. 34 gifts of the Spirit powerfully and visibly spiritualizing that body, and making it to excel all other bodies civil or Antichristian. And that Prophecy was a more x 1 Cor. 12. 10, 29. & 14 29. extraordinary gift, then is now any where in the Churches. Anabatisme, So called; What it is, and what they hold. THe Church of Christ are a Company of a Heb. 12 22. Acts 10. 48 & 2. 4●. & 16. 32, 33. baptised Believers; and whatsoever b Matth. 10. 1. compared with Matth. 8. 18. john 4. 1. john 8. 31. Isai. 1. 16 Act 9 10. and 1. 15. Disciple can teach the Word, or make out Christ, may baptise or administer other Ordinances. That the Church or Body, though but of two or three, yet may enjoy the Word and Ordinances, by way of an c 1 Cor. 12. 5. Administrator, or one deputed to administer, though no Pastor. That none are to be baptised but d Acts 2. 38. & 10. 4●. Math. 28. 18. Mark 1●. 16. Acts 8 37. Believers. That those commonly called Church-Officers, as Pastors, etc. are such as the Church or Body may be e Acts 1. ●5 & 2 42. without. That none are to be called Brethren but baptised Believers. All administrations of Ordinances were given to the Apostles as f Matth. 1●. 1. compared with 28 18. Isai. 8. 16. Acts 9 10. Disciples; not so under the notion of Church-power as is pretended. That none ought to communicate in the Ordinances of Christ till first g Acts 2. 41, 42. and 16. 31. baptised. Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism. 1. THat those places commonly taken for the Commission for Christ's Baptisin, as Mat. 28. 18. Mar. 16. and where they that now baptise ground their Commission and practice, hath no such thing in it; For the Baptism there is a Baptism in the Name of the three Persons, of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and not the Baptism of Jesus Christ alone, which the Apostles only baptised in by water, as in a Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48 and 19 5. and 8. 1●. Rom. 6. 3. Act. 2. 28. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19 5. Act. 8. 16. Rom. 6. 3. where it is still said, Baptise in the Name of the Lord Jesus, or of Jesus Christ; and a Name of any more Persons is not the least mentioned: So as to baptise as they commonly baptise in the Name of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; for Jesus Christ's baptism, is contrary to the full b Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48. & 19 5. and 8. 16. practice of all that baptised by water, as they do, as in Act. 2. 38. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19 5. Act. 8. 16. etc. and a confounding Scriptures together, viz. several institutions and practices. 2. That baptising, in Matth. 28. 18. cannot properly, nor in the word, and letter, be understood of baptising by water, because there is no more mentioned in the letter, or Scripture, then merely the word baptising; and to expound it as they do, by a baptising by water, is to put in a c Acts 3. 22. john ●5. 14. Matth. 15. 9 Revel. 22. ●9. consequence and interpretation of their own for Scripture; which way of consequences they condemn in all others, Presbyterials, etc. as Will-worship and traditions of men, and justly too: Now there being no water, nor any circumstance in the Text to make out any sense of water, as in other places, it is an usurpation upon the Spirit and the Word, to put such a sense so infallibly and peremptorily upon the Word, which Jesus Christ himself uses in other d Matt. 20. 22, 23. and 3. 11. 1 Cor. 12. 13. and 10. 2. significations then that of water, as in Matth. 20. 22, 23. Matth. 3. 11. 1. Cor. 12. 13. 1 Cor. 10. 2. all these places are of Baptism and baptising; yet not one of them of baptising by water, but of Metaphorical and figurative Baptism by his sufferings, by the Holy Ghost, by the Spirit, by the cloud and Sea. 3. That Matth. 28. 18. Mar. 16 etc. are rather and far more probably to be expounded of the Spirits Baptism, or the e joel 2. ●8. Isa. 44. ●. with Matth. ●. 11. Act. 1. 5. john 1. 33. Baptism of the Holy Ghost, because it seems to be prophesied on by Joel 2. 28. Isai. 44. 3. where the Holy Ghosts Baptism is promised to come by Christ; and in Matth. 3. 11. Act. 1. 5. Joh. 1. 33. prophesied on to come by John, and Christ himself to his Disciples, and was fulfilled in Christ's Institution, and power which he gave, in Matth. 28. 18. by baptising with the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles did accordingly practise, and by their Ministry was given, as in f Acts 8. 17, 18 and 10. 44. and 11. 15. Act. 8. 17, and Mark. 16. 16, 17. compared with Matth. 28. 18. doth show that the Baptism in Matth. 28. 18. is a Baptism of gifts, as Mark. 16. 15, 16, 17. 4. That the Baptism of Jesus Christ by water, was only in the Name of Jesus Christ, as appears in all the places where such a g Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48. & 19 5. and 8 16. Rom. 6 3. Baptism was practised, as in Act. 2. 38. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19 5. Act. 8. 16. Rom. 6. 3. all which is a Baptism only in the Name of Jesus Christ, of the Person of the Son, not of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as they now practise, and which was never practised as appears in all the Apostles and Disciples practise. 5. That the form by which they baptise, viz. I baptise thee in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is a h Matth. 9 15. Revel 22▪ 19 john 15. 14. form of man's devising a tradition of man, a mere consequence drawn from supposition and probability, and not a form left by i Acts 3. 2●▪ ●● Christ, to say over them at the dipping them in the water: If Christ had said, When you baptise them, say this over them, I baptise in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and unless Jesus Christ had left this form thus made up to their hands, they practise a thing made up by themselves, and drawn or forced out of Jesus Christ's words in Matth. 28. 18. 6. That to preach in the Name of Jesus Christ, or to do things in the Name of Jesus Christ, is not always in that gross manner as it is taken, viz. naming Jesus Christ, or the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost over them. But in the k Mat. 18 20. Mark 13 6. john 14. 13. Acts 9 15, 16. john 17. 6, 11 Acts 9 14. power, virtue, efficacy, Ministry of Jesus Christ, or the Persons of the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as in these Scriptures Matth. 28. 20. Mark. 13. 6. Joh. 14. 3. Act. 19 15, 16. Joh. 17. 6, 11. Act. 9 14. Revel. 11. 18, So here they are at some more loss. 7. That though I deny not but water is a sign and one of the l john 7 7; witnesses that bear record; and in the Word though not yet clear, yet neither can Christ's Institution of water; and his own Baptism, in his own Person, be made appear out of all the New Testamont; nor can the Apostles practise by water yet be fetched from such a particular Institution, unless from John's: And if so, I am sure they are then at as great a Controversy one with another concerning m john 1: 26. Mark 1: 4: Matth ●●: 30. Acts 10: ●, 4: John's▪ Baptism and Jesus Christ's, making them to be two several Baptisms. 8. That every common Disciple cannot so baptise as the first Disciples did, because not gifted, or n Mark 16 17. Acts 2: 3, 4: and 16. 17: qualified as they were. And there is as much necessity to make out the Truth in the same power and way of evidence to an Antichristian estate, as to a Jewish and Heathenish, and with a Word written as well as preached; speaking and writing lying both equally open to question and exceptions, without a power o john 1 25. Matth. 2●. 25. Heb. ●. ●. glorious working in the behalf and to the reputation of it. Nor is there any one Disciple in all the New Testament preaching and baptising by way of authority, but he was able to make out the truth of his calling and dispensation, either by miracle or gifts. There are but three Exceptions, and they have no weight in them. 1. p Acts 8. 6. Ananias was a Disciple. I answer: Yea, but he restored sight to Saul, and had vision. 2. q Acts ●. 17. Philip did no miracle to the Eunuch. I answer: We can neither conclude he did, nor he did not, from the Word; for it is silent: but he did miracles in Samaria. 3. They that were scattered, went every where preaching. I answer: Who they were, or how they preached, or what power they manifested, is not laid down in the Word neither for nor against: The Word is silent. 9 That there is not such an Officer as Administrator in the whole Word; but Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Rulers, 1 Cor. 12. 29, 30. Ephes.. ●. 11 Deacons, etc. and therefore Administrator is an unwholesome Word. 10. None ought to give Baptism now, because there is none can give the gift of the Holy Ghost with it, to make up that glorious supplement of gifts which it always had; and they are joined both in the Word and practice, as in Heb. 6. 1. Doctrine of Baptisms and Laying on of hands: and in their practice they were joined as in act, Act. 8. 14. 15, 16. And it will appear in the Word, that the Apostles did not so reckon of them single, but together, as in Act. 8. 14, 15, 16. where it is said they were only Baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus; but they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. So as Baptism by water, and by the Holy Ghost, being joined together both in Institution, Doctrine, and Practice, are not to be separated, nor given in such a time wherein that of the Holy Ghost is not given: For, what God hath joined together, let no man put Matth. 19 6. asunder. 11. That it is as unreasonable to take any such Ordinance of Jesus Christ from any that is not distinctly, specially, spiritually, powerfully enabled as the first dispensers, as it is to take the word of any a john ●. ●5. 〈◊〉 5 4. Mat. ●● 1. ●. 8. Mark 16. 16. common man charging us in the name of the Parliament, and cannot visibly make out a visible Excellency and Supremacy of power by Ordinance or Commission. 12. That these Churches who enjoy Christ's mind, as they think, most fully in the practice o● Ordinances, yet have no greater gifts in their b 〈◊〉. ●●. 8. 1 Cor. ● 1. Churches then there are in those called Independent, or Separatist; Prayer, Teaching, Prophesying being as fully and powerfully performed in the one as the other. And being so, Whether must not the Churches of Christ be distinguished by some more visible glorious power and gifts as at first, by which they may be discerned to excel all other Societies? c 1 Cor. 1●▪ 13. That the fullness of time is not yet come for Ordinances: For as there were several d Acts 1. 4 and 7. ●7. G●●● 4. Mark ●. ●5. Revel. ●5. 8. & 16 and 18 ●. Acts 1 6, 7. seasons for the givings out of Truth before, so now. Seeking, or, Seekers, So called; What their Way is, and what they hold. THat there is no Church nor Ordinances yet. That if they did not end with the Primitive or Apostles times, yet they are to begin as in the Primitive times, with a Matth. 10. 1 Mark 16. 16. 1 Cor. 12. gifts and miracles; and that there is as much reason for the like gifts to make out the Truth of any of the Gospel now to an Antichristian estate, as formerly to a Jewish or Heathenish. That such a Belever as can dispense Ordinances, must be qualified as the Believers in Mark. 16. and as the former b Acts 8▪ 6. and 9 17. Disciples were. That there is a time and c Revel. 15. 8. and 18. 1. fullness for the Spirit, and for the latter pure spiritual dispensations, as there was formerly for the first dispensations: And whether this shall be while the Angels are but pouring out their Vials or not, or when Babylon is fallen. And whether there is not as much need for d Acts 2 4. Mark 16. 17. Acts 19 6. 1 Cor. 14. 22, 39 new Tongues to reveal the pure Origionall to us, it being conveyed with corruptions and additionals in Translations; by which, Truth may be more purely discovered, and the waters of Life that now run muddily, may flow more clear and Crystal-like from the Throne e Revel. 22. 1. of God. The Exceptions. 1. THat Jesus Christ did promise to be ever with his a Mat. 28. 2● and 16. 18. Church, and therefore cannot be reasonably presumed to leave them without b john 14. 16 Church and Ordinances. 2. That if c Rev 2●. 18, 19 Scriptures were not so pure and clear to us, as the Word of Life were not sufficiently there; God were less d Heb 7▪ 22. gracious to us now under Grace, and Christ come in the flesh, than before to the Jews, who gave them a Book of the Law, which remained with them to the coming of the Messiah. 3. That such gifts and miracles were rather for bringing the Word into the world, and for glorifying Christ's first coming in the flesh, then for e john 20 29▪ 30, 31. after. 4. That if we must have miracles to make us believe, and not believe any truth till then; we must have for every Truth, as well as for one or two, a miracle to give it evidence: and so there must be a continual and new miracle working for every new believing. 5. If there must be miracles for believing, Truth is not of that excellent nature that it seems: for if it be not able to make itself evident, and cast a native and spiritual ᶠ Ephes. 5: 13: shine or brightness upon that soul it comes into, it is but weak, dark, and insufficient. 6. If Truth be not discernible in itself by its own glorious lightsome nature, by beams from it self; it is of a worse condition than many things below, as the Sun, and Stars, and Candles etc. which bring that light in their own nature and dispensation, by which they are discerned. 7. If every Truth be a became of g john 8: 12: and 9: 5: Christ the truth, than every beam hath h Revel. 22: 5: light in itself, because it streams from the fountain of light, and so is discernible. 8. That it is more glorious to take evidences from the Spirit, then from any thing without; which can at the farthest of itself but convince the outward man. 9 That all shall now in the last times be in a secret, invisible, inward, spiritual glory, no more in gross, carnal, visible evidences and material beams, as gifts & miracles. And this is to know Christ no more after the flesh. 10. No miracles can in their own nature make one believe, without a spiritual conviction from the Spirit of Christ going along with it; so as we see when miracles were wrought, some believed, and some believed not: So as then there is no such reason for miracles as pretended, because that conviction which comes from the Spirit through the work of a miracle, may come by any other instrumental or original way. Or, it is a more glorious operation, by how much more single, or by way of immediate revelation it works. 11. To believe merely by the i john 20: 19, 30, 31: Spirit, is far more glorious then by any other outward means, though never so outwardly glorious: by how much the Spirit is more excellent than any thing else, by so much more divine and spiritual are the impressions of it. 12. That when miracles are wrought, yet a pretender may work a miracle for the contrary; like the Sorcerers of Egypt against Moses: and Antichrist is spoken on rather to come k Matt. 2: 24: with signs and wonders of the two, then Christ. So as here shall be a loss to any that think to believe merely by miracle. So as the Spirit is that which must make us believe beyond all the power of miracle, which can give out its power but upon the sense at farthest, being merely outward and visible. 13. That there is no such power for Ordinances as is pretended; but Believers, as l Matth. 10: 1, compared with Matth 28: 18: john 8: 31: Isai. 8: 6: Acts 9▪ 10: Disciples, may administer; and so did the Apostles and Believers formerly, as they were Disciples. 14. That the Scriptures of the Gospel, or New Testament, are of such a m 2 Cor ● 6, 8, 9: Rome 1: 16: 2▪ Tim: 3: 6, 17: Heb: 4: 12: ● Pet. 1: 19: divine and even Spiritual glory in the Letter, as no other word: There is a power to discover the reason and secrets of the heart, which the reason and heart of man witnesses unto: There is a power to convince, and accase, and terrify, and comfort, clearly, and undeniably, and experementally known. 15. These Scriptures we have, as they are, do make a Discovery of such a way of Religion as reason never yet in any age attained to: The men of purest reason, as your old Philosophers, never attained further than the knowledge of something infinite which they did not know, and a Religion of humane or moral righteousness and purity, and some sacrifices of atonement, etc. And there is not any Religion in the world, Jewish or Turkish, but they are made up of carnal principles, and are founded upon reason and nature; but this Gospel's Religion hath opened a new way of righteousness in one that is both God and Man in a most rational though infinite way of salvation, and a way of Worship cross to all methods and wates of reason, and the world, opening new ways by a new Spirit, purifying natural reason into more divine and glorious notions then ever it yet attained, bringing in a way of believing, and placing a Religion upon a spiritual persuasion called Faith, which is more proportionable to an infinite God, and an infinite way and depth of salvation, than reason ever invented, viz. for the soul to believe upon one, even Jesus Christ, in whom God hath laid up all love and fullness; and so for man to become one with him who is God and Man: and there cannot be a more rational way for man to become one with God, then by one who is both God and Man. 16. That though there be not such glorious powerings out of Spirit, and such gifts as Believers both may and shall have; yet all Believers ought to practise so far of the outward Ordinance as is clearly revealed they may. Phil: 13: 16: 17. That the Scriptures or Gospel of the New Testament being as many hundred years old as from the Apostles, even in that Original we have them, no very material differences in Copies, as it seems; and though they have passed through the great Apostasy, yet they have not had the power to corrupt them materially in their Original, to advantage their heresies and corruptions; which very constant preservation of Truth in the midst of the very Enemies of Truth, is both a constant and standing miracle of itself; and so we need not stay for a Ministry with miracle, being we have a Word with miracle, which in its matter, subject, power, speaking of God, of his Son, God and Man, of his Spirit the Actor in man from both, by ways of outward Ordinances, of the depths, windings, and workings of reason, etc. is of as much efficacy to persuade as any thing else we can have; and the way of the pure Spirit is a more glorious way of operation than any other of a visible sensual nature: And God may be more glorified by quickening and spiritualizing a word, and using the spiritually glorious Ministry of that, then of man: and they are far too low who look for their original teaching from man, and not from the Word and Spirit. CONCLUSION. I Have drawn out this map of each opinion, that your eye may travel over that in an hour, which otherwise you might be a year in going over. Thus each are discovered in a narrow yet full Discovery; and I think all that are divinely rational, will see no such cause to think that each hath attained so ● Cor. 8. 2. far, that either they should presume in their degree, or look down from the pinnacle of an infallibility upon each other. I have set the strength and weakness of each opinion before itself, that on the one side as it may glory, so on the other side it may fear and be humble. All I wish now, is, that we be all so far one, at least in infirmity, and this Common weakness, as may be a ground of Common embodying and associating against the Common Enemy, or Grand Antichrist; as in States, when they are at lowest, have least factions; and when weakest, are most peaceable with one another. The Gospel, or New Testament of JESUS CHRIST, proved undeniably to be the very Word of God, without Miracles, to assure us of the particular duties in it. Because there are some men now of more reason then sound belief, I cannot but in a spiritual rationally way bear witness to our salvation in the written Word. 1. IF there were not a Word or Will of God revealed in Laws and Ordinances written, God were worse provided than the Lawgivers of Nations and Kingdoms, and the World were left to their own wills; which is esteemed ridiculous in the eyes of all the Nations of the world in their very politic condition. 2. The Laws and Ordinances contained in the Word, or New Testament, bear only the Image of a God, in their holiness, purity, righteousness, glory, infiniteness, eternity, immortality, which are all, with many more things of like excellency, there, which are as the beams of light to the Sun, or so many things of God, revealing God. 3. The Word is so tempered into a middle nature betwixt God and man, as no Word can be more revealing the most glorious, spiritual, infinite things from a God, in a mean, literal, figurative, comparative, significative way to man. 4. To have a standing Word as the Gospel is, is more for the glory and authority of a God than any ministry of man, though with miracles and signs; because such a Word, where none can join themselves as Authors or Parties, as in other ways of dispensation by men, men may join themselves, doth undoubtedly hold forth most of God and of divine Authority; and thus to maintain or preserve a Law or Word in the world, is not so much with God as for King and Princes to maintain Statutes and Laws in their Kingdoms. 5. A Word as the New Testament is, may be as well a way and dispensation to an infinite God to make out himself by, as any other, either of dream or vision, or Revelation, or Oracle, all being but ways of a natural strain and condition, no more than the Word. 6. The very manner of dispensation or writing, is such as hath the authority, power, wisdom, counsels of a God, the whole business of it being a work discovered to be begun by God, and amongst men, to let forth the glory of God, the mercy, love, and wisdom, of God, and the way by the Son of God, and Spirit of God, and all to be glorified with God; and thus treating only of things divine, and a work divine, in a way divine. 7. We must either give up ourselves to this Word wholly, or not at all; and then let the world and experience judge what kind of Religion reason at large unbounded, or unenlightened, will bring forth, by the former patterns of Heathenish and Gentilish Religion. 8. Why should it not be thought the most clean and direct way for God, to manifest himself to man by Word, Gospel, and Epistle; and so by an infinite and invisible power and hand commend and convey it from age to age, from generation to generation, as well as for men to make out their art, reason, knowledge, experience into books and words written, to their own and other generations? 9 This Gospel of jesus Christ places Religion upon a more glorious transcendent way, to suit with an infinite God, then ever any device of man, or reason could invent, viz. upon faith, upon a believing or spiritual persuasion wrought by the same God, by which men are carried out into depths of infiniteness and glory, no way measurable nor discernible but by this way of believing; and there could never have been an engine contrived which could have gone from man into God but this of faith by God himself; nor more for the advantage of the glory of a God, taking all from the creature, employing it wholly upon a God. 10. There is more reason in this Gospel, or New Testament, in the way of Religion which it holds forth by jesus Christ, then ever could be thought on by the reason of man; as for instance, Each man's internal conscience hath a light or law in it, which condemns or accuseth for murder, etc. Now if there be accusations, against whom is the offence committed but against something infinite? and what way is there more divinely rational to apply to the justice of such an infinite, being on God offended, but by one who is both man and God, even jesus Christ? So as the mystery of salvation is such as even reason itself cannot contradict or gainsay, though it cannot comprehend to leave the world inexcusable in their unbelief, because it commands them to believe in one whom in reason they cannot deny to be a way proportionable betwixt God and themselves▪ for salvation. 11. It carries things in such a rare way of mercy, of justice, of love, of piety; and as it is a salvation from God to man, so it is a salvation managed by one who is God and Man; and every thing belonging to it, is accordingly mixed or tempered, of Word and Spirit, of power divine, and outward dispensation, or ordinance; and all this for man who is of a mixed nature of flesh and spirit: Thus things are carried in a way of proportion and suitableness, so full, so suitable, and complete, and serviceable, as the invention of men could never devise. 12. It discovers reason to itself in all its workings and ways, in its purity and corruption, in its virtues and vices, conscience bearing witness to the Laws and Commandments of it; it purifies and spiritualizeth reason, and brings it into such a way of communion with God, as the souls that read it, and are exercised in it, seem to be newborn, to receive in another nature, an immortal and incorruptible seed. 13. It manages all the design of salvation, contrary to nature and the world, upon contrary principles, dispensations and hands, by a Person poor, humble, and crucified for the good, by Ministers and Dispenser's, mean and contemptible Fishermen, Tradesmen, etc. yet inspired by graces contrary; as selfe-deniall, humility, love to enemies; by conditions contrary; as weakness, affliction, poverty, suffering, dying, carrying a treasure, a comfort, a riches, a life, a glory, under all these. 14. It is accompanied by continued or standing miracles, though miracles of a more spiritual nature, as discovery of the counsels and hearts of men, as conversion from sin, mortification of sin, changing natures from evil to good, planting in new dispositions, inclinations, affections into the soul. Now, if such charges and conversions were in material or sensible things, as from water to blood, from water to wine, how would it astonish? Which in spirituals in more wonderful, though only less discernible, and not to be so sensibly perceived, preserved by its very enemies, the Roman cruelty of Emperors, and Antichristian Traditions. 15. It refers the discovery of all Truth in itself to the Spirit of God, which no word but the Word of God would do, and will not take in men into glory with itself which miracles do, which are done by the hand and ministry of man; and the Spirit in this way must needs be a more glorious Interpreter of the Will of God, than the mere ministry by man and miracles can be▪ by how much it is of a more spiritual nature; and it is more excellent to seek things in the Spirit, then in any outward dispensation, which as it comes more immediately from God, so it comes in more immediately upon men; and to take in Truth by sense and sight, or miracle, is rather to know Christ after the flesh. 16. Yet after all, the Word itself is the best way to bring in evidence and discovery in its 〈◊〉 half to the souls of those that will come under the power, operation, and experiments of it, under the enlightening, convictions, impressions of it, in the reading, hearing, and meditating of it. These things are john 20. written that ye may believe: And they that are thus exercised, are above all miracle, and are persuaded enough by itself without the help of an outward work. 17. To these I add the testimonies of the most ancient in witness of it. De divinis nomin. c. 2. Dionysius Areopagita, thought to live in the times of the Apostles, and Iren l. 3. c. 1. not daring to take his Divinity any where, but from these Scriptures. Irenaeus, who was in the year 180, affirming the fullness of these Gospell-Scriptures, Tertul. lib. contra Hermogen. and accounted them the Pillar of Truth. So Tertullian, who lived 1400 years since▪ doth accordingly witness to their perfection. Origen, Athanasius, chrysostom, Constantine the Great, in the first Nicene-Councell, with thousands others all along to our own age. 18. The jews, whose very Testament and condition answers to every Prophecy and Gospel-Scripture. 19 The many of those most eminently ancient, learned, and godly, who have shed their blood in testimony of it. 20. The power of God going along with it. 21. The Confessions of the most learned in that, confess, that the Original Copies are not corrupted, but continued pure. One Argument from the national Covenant, for Liberty of Conscience, yet with all subordinate and just obedience to the State. ART. I. THe first Branch of the Covenant is, That we shall sincerely, really, and constantly, etc. endeavour, etc. the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England, etc. in Doctrine, Worship, Discipline, and Government, according to the Word of God, etc. ART. II. The second Branch of the Covenant, That we shall in like manner without respect of persons, endeavour the extirpation of Popery, etc. Superstition, Heresy, Schism, etc. and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine, etc. Now from these I argue: 1. Each one is personally and individually bound by the Covenant, and in his own proper conscience is obliged to endeavour a Reformation according to the Word of God, and so far to the example of the best Reformed Churches as they are agreeable to that Word; I hope no further: Now who shall be the judge and Interpreter of this Word of God, to each man's conscience in the things of God, but he who is Lord of the conscience, in things immediately divine and spiritual? The consciences of men are under a spiritual and immediate Interpreter of the Word, even the Spirit of the Lord, in all things of spiritual cognizance, as every Scripture-truth, or Truth in the Word is: and this is not only strengthened and clear from the Word, but from a testimony which some when they read, may know better than many others. By the Clause, According to the Word of God, we understand, so far as we do or shall in our consciences conceive the same to be according to the Word of God. Now each man standing thus engaged in his own particular, and in his own proper conscience by a Covenant recommended and imposed, each is bound to bring forth the evidence of their consciences in particular, concerning this to which they are covenanted: So as I, or you, being covenanted against Popery, Heresy, and according to the Word of God, you and I stand bound by our own private consciences to reveal to the State, who hath recommended such a Covenant unto us, what our consciences interpret according to this Word, against Popery or Heresy, unless there could be one universal, or public infallible Interpreter of the Word of God and Truth, who might determine concerning Heresy, and the Word of God, and whose determinations is as in the formerly inspired Apostolical teachers, we may rest. So being thus engaged by Covenant, we are at the same time, by one and the same Act, bound to liberty of conscience, in these particulars of the things of God: And if there should be any persecution for the pious, modest, and peaceable liberty, so taken and practised, whether would it not clearly and undeniably follow, that our consciences are not under the Lord jesus, and his Spirit immediately in the things of God, but under the interpretations of men. And surely that one Clause▪ according to the Word of God, is most providentially inserted; for if we be so closely covenanted to the Word of God, how tender ought we to be? lest in this dark season of our discerning, we oppose something of the Word, and so in ignorance, persecute what we covenant to maintain. I wish our Assembly would press this equally with the Covenant in their Sermons. Object. But must every one be the Interpreter of the Covenant? Answ. Nay, not every one, in every thing: The Magistracy in all things of a civil cognizance, and in all spiritual things which go out from their mere spiritual condition into a moral offence; as injustice or evil transgression into tumult or disturbance of public or private peace, actually and expressly, not interpretatively; for so the Nations interpreted the jews as troublers of the State; and the jews, Christ and his Disciples, as movers of sedition: The Papists and Prelates interpreted the Nonconformists or reproached Puritans, as factious and tumultuous: So as in all things of Moral, Civil, or Secular cognizance, which the Magistrate hath clear rule for to walk by, He ought to interpret and proceed by; partly, because he is the Legislator, and so is the best Interpreter, and can best resolve us in things of Law and public liberty; and in morals, his duty lies out more clearly; but in merely divine and spiritual interpretations of Truth and Gospell-mystery, the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are both the Legislators, or Law givers, and Interpreters to the conscience. Obj. But shall there be no power to compel consciences into Uniformity? Answ. I shall give light to this by propounding a Case. Suppose the several godly parties, or believers, were equally principled for persecution or non-toleration, and were equally numbered, and were equally strengthened by parties of Magistracy on their side, what would come forth according to such principles? I sigh to consider: There would be edge against edge, authority against authority, power against power, and all the State or Kingdom involved into blood and confusion: So as we must consider things according to their principles, not according to their temporary or occasional advantages. Object. But you give not enough to the Magistrate? Answ. Yea, more than any. He that gives him that which God hath given him, gives more than any that pretend to give him the most. The pretenders that bid for the Magistrate at this time, are, 1. They that put him as an help and government in the Church, as some, 1 Cor. 2. 28. viz. they of the Erastian way. 2. They that make use on him but as an help to the Church extrinsecally, and by way of foreign assistance, as others, viz. they of the Presbyterial way. 3. They that give him power over body, goods, over all moral and civil behaviours of men, Professors and Believers, of what sort soever, of what opinion soever, as I and the rest of our Brethren do, praying with all manner of supplication, that under them we may lead a peaceable, godly, and quiet life. Obj. But why dare you not engage civil Magistracy in Religion over consciences, as some others do? Answ. Yea, in all things morally good and evil, God hath engaged them▪ and hath set the Law and Light of nature and conscience in all people to side with them, condemning and excusing what they and their Law doth condemn and excuse, and thus to bear witness with their dominion and power. But in things of pure Gospel-mystery and Evangelically good or evil, I dare not engage them (whatever others do) over consciences, because I give more to their just power, and because I dare not draw them into such principles, which hath broken more Magistracy, than all the other plots and devices of men. For things of Worship which are laid up in the pure simple mystery in the Light of the Spirit, not of nature, as all mere Gospell-mystery is, to engage the Magistrates Sword into these, is rather a way to dash them against every man's conscience, and so in time to lay in a fatal power, or a fatal suffering. We know that power which makes Kingdom's soundest in their▪ Dominion, and most lasting, is the truest and wholsomest; and surely that which engages them lest into that part of the soul, the conscience which can lest endure to be oppressed, is the safest and most peaceable. To my Reverend learned Friend M. LEY, One of the Assembly of Divines, at Westminster, Author of a Book called The Resolution of the New Quere, published by Master Saltmarsh. SIR, I Shall give you a public account according to your public charge in your leaf concerning me, That I intended to make you my Censor for some Papers which I did not publish. Page 1. Sir, those Papers were an Answer to Master Fuller's last Book; and the Question about Reformation betwixt him and me, being so out of all Question, as Master Herle serveth, and ●e as I heard, being dead, made me rather put up my Arrows into their Quiver, then shoot them at such a mark. For my contending with you in this, I hope it is but as that of Paul and Barnabas, and Paul and Peter, a contention of Brethren, not of Enemies; for I think you would oppose Truth no more than myself; but we both may be said to contend rather for the Truth then against it, and rather with one another's reason, then with Truth. In this Controversy you have much advantage of learning, and experience; but there is a Spirit and the inspiration of the Almighty, which enlightens the young man and the old; Elihu as well as Job or his Friends. Your other advantages are, the Magistrate whom you have more on your side; we only are more on the Magistrate's side, than they are on ours; yet we cannot but say, and bless the Lord for them, they are so far on ours, as we lead a peaceable and quiet life under them. Your other advantage, is an Assembly of learned Divines, yet not so wholly yours; the way of Truth we stand for, hath a Party there; and I hope when the veil of prejudice is taken away, and Truth is brought home to their souls in its nakedness, power, and evidence, by a power more spiritual than is yet given out from Heaven, out Party there will be greater: I willingly presume so much of them. I have laboured that a Spirit of love and meekness might run through all my Reply unto you, though in my travelling over your Paper, I have met with some things in the way too sharp, and your way hath more Briars and Thorns in it then you promised in your first leaf: I had much ado not to be provoked, by how much your promise had removed all offence on your part from my expectation: If you find any passions in my Book, charge them on my unregenerate part; for I find that when I would do good, evil is present with me. You see my labours, deducting the time of their Printing, are of about two week's growth, younger by some six weeks (if I mistake not) than yours. I hope where you could not expect much, you will not look for more than I here return you in this time. Sir, I salute you in the Lord, and with all due respects to your self, your age, your learning, I begin my Discourse with you; and the Lord let me see the failings on my part, while I seek to discover those on yours, that I may take out the beam from my own eye, as well as the more from yours. You desired me in your Book to enter upon away of Peace; and I have accordingly presented my Model, to be perfected and refined by any that will set upon the work: I do not love in any thing I write, to fume out merely in Controversy; but in something if it may be to edification. I rest, Your Friend in the Lord, JOHN SALTMARSH. THE SMOKE IN THE TEMPLE: Wherein, is the Vindication of the new QUERE, From Master Ley's RESOLUTION. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 2, & 3. I Put a Question, Whether he were an Independent or no? He told me, He was not; but that he had a latitude of charity for them of that way. Since that, I had a glimpse more of his inclination by his Dawning of Light: but a full discovery of his mind in his Book, The Opening of M. Pry●●s Vindication. I will not entertain him as an enemy. To give him his due, in all that I have seen set forth in his name, I find him rather opinionative then passionate. Reply. Your Question was accordingly put by you, and accordingly answered by me. And for my appearing for Truth not all at once in my Treatises, you may see I was not hasty to believe, nor to write in the behalf of a Truth before I saw it, nor to plunge myself into any Way till I had examined it. The Apostles waited for the full revelation of all Truth by the Spirits coming. The Bereans searched daily to see whether the things were Acts 1 & 17. 1 john 4. 1. 1 Thes 5. 21. so, or no. Apollo's preached not Christ clearly till he was instructed in the way of God more perfectly. We are bidden to try the spirits, and prove all things: So as I appeared in those degrees but by Scripture warrant. And I could name to you examples of another sort; Augustine, Luther, both finding truth but in degrees; and the latter sweetly acknowledging how he was enlightened by beam after beam. Angels, who lie more naked towards God, and take in the things they know, by way of Vision; yet see not any of that will of God which gives Laws to them, but as he reveals: Much less such as we who dwell in houses of clay, and whose foundations are in the dust, and who come by the sight of things discoursively, and by spiritual reasoning; God giving in the revelation of his Truths, in a natural, yet supernatural way. But for that Notion of Independency you speak on, I dare not own it, because I account myself both under a spiritual and civil Supremacy; under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally, and exempt from neither. We are not of those that despise Governments, and speak evil of Dignities; nor are we under any such singular Notion that I know on, to be called Independents, etc. We all hold of the Body of Christ, and of the Communion of Saints below; and we hold one upon another, but not one over another. We dare not be Classical, Provincial, national; these are no forms of wholesome words to which we are commanded, nor know we any such power; but that of Brethren, and Ministry, and fellowship. We dare not take out a Copy either from the States of the world, or the State of Israel, to obey or rule by under the Gospel. And if you can the Churches or Christ Independent for this, we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousness as the noonday. Yet this you and we both know, that when Truth would not embody or mingle at any time with corruptions, it had presently the name of Sect, Schism, Faction (all which are employed in the name Independency) put upon it. Thus were the Reformed Nations of England, Germany, France, etc. scandalized by Popish Writers, and the old Nonconformists by the Prelatical; the Jews formerly by the Nations, & the Christians by the Jews. We have heard enough of Independency and Presbytery, such notes of distinction are now become names of reproach: and so I lay them down. And whereas you say, you will not entertain me as an enemy; It is more likely then in the end, both you and I may prove a better friend to the Truth. It is possible many in this Age might have seen more, had they not east so much dust in one another's eyes by their strive: It were well such a Gospel's spirit would walk more abroad, and that spirit which casts men sometimes into the fire, and sometimes into the water, were not so stirring. Well, since you will be no enemy to me, I shall not, I hope, contend with you, though I dare not but contend earnestly for the Truth. And the Truth itself which I write for, may (I hope) at length find you no more an enemy to it than you are to me. I cannot ●ut wish, one of your experience and abilities, like Pant, to preach for that Truth which before he destrayed. Our heart's desire and prayer should be for any of Israel. And for that you say of me in your Observation, that I am rather opinionative then passionate, I cannot take it so ill from you that will needs be no enemy to me: I interpret any thing from such a one on the better side of it. But I shall allow you your liberty as myself: And if the truth of God may 〈…〉 more abound through my opinion (as you take it) unto his glory, I have enough. 〈…〉 Master Ley's Resolution, Page 4, & 5. I wonder he, who hath writ a whole Book of Policy, should be so unpolitick as to think it seasonable, since it tends to retard the establishment of Government, whereto the Parliament is so much engaged by Declaration▪ etc. by Solemn League and Covenant, Art. 1. already setting it up in Ordinance for Ordination, etc. Though the liberty of speaking lengthens the Debates, and delays the Votes, etc. and so much the more, because they are more in number than we, and because their determinations are final, as ours are not. Answer. For some things in my Book of Policy, I praise the Lord I can look on them as on part of the darkness I was in: And I can freely join with any in censuring any unregenerate part in me, as I esteem much of my carnal reason to be. When I was a child, I spoke as a child; neither have I any fruit now (as the Apostle says) of some of those things. Nor would I have any go thither for direction, but so far as they find Scripture or sound Reason. I cannot but give a Caution concerning this Book, because I would have Readers to look on any thing from me, as Luther speaks of himself, as I receive in light. And me thinks I scarce do any thing which I could not, with Augustine, when it is done, find something to retract in it: either something is too dead, or too dark, or too carnal. Thus you see I willingly help you against myself; and I account it a part of my condition here, not to see all at once. For the unseasonableness of my Quere, you allege the Declaration of Parliament, and the Covenant in Art. 1. wherein they are engaged to endeavour Reformation; and the Ordinances, etc. Now, where is my unseasonableness? The Parliament is endeavouring, etc. May I contribute my monies, my vote, my pains my informations to the Civil engagements, and not my notions to the Spiritual? Are we not to bring in all our disbursements, either Natural, Civil, or Spiritual, into that public Treasury? Though you of the Assembly▪ cast in of your abundance, may not the poor ones cast in their mite? Are we not by the same Covenant bound to discover any thing against God and the State, and the glory and peace of both? And if I find my conscience persuading me such or such a thing is not accordingly, ought I not by all the Obligatious that are upon me, of Gospel, Parliament and Country, peaceably and meekly to speak a word? May we discover any thing to the State we conceive of malignity or danger in Civil things, and not in Spirituals▪ Is not the Spiritual or soul-liberty▪ the more glorious liberty of the Subject? We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard, saith the Apostle: And▪ What Acts 4. 20. you hear in the ear, that speak you on the house top, saith Christ. We know who it was that said, Prophesy not here; for it is the King's Chapel. And Amos 2. 13. for things of a Spiritual nature, we are allowed almost the fullness of time for season: Be instant in season and out of season, saith Paul. But, What better season could I come in, than such a one, wherein things were but ripening and moving towards establishment? Where nothing is settled▪ there can be nothing disturbed. Where nothing is concluded, there can be nothing repelled. Where nothing is established, there can be nothing disordered. But since you put me to a further account, I shall give it. My Spirit was not my own so wholly then, but his (I hope) whose motion I obeyed, the Lords. Such breathe of Heaven who dare safely quench? It is as fire in the bones, says the Prophet: and like that of Mordecai, If thou altogether hold thy peace at this time, etc. And whereas you say, that the Parliaments determinations are final, That holds better for me, who might have spoken to much less purpose, had I stayed till all had been done, and the determinations ended, and become final; sure it was time then to speak before determinations were final, or never, and by your own account too; for you are pleased to reckon up the proceedings of State in the business of Religion; which are such, as had I stayed, I had had a worse season; however, as the Prophet says, I have delivered my soul: they were, you know, the foolish virgins that came not with their oil till the door was shut. Whatever my Oil or my Lamp was, yet I think it not agreeable to the wisdom of that Parable, to come and knock only when the door is not open. Master Ley's Resolution, page 6, 7, and 8. The title of the Quere is baited with Truth and Peace. He a private Divine to put such a Quere both of State and Religion, and to suggest such a suspicion of haste, and to tax the Ministers for putting in for a power not consonant to Scriptures and Prudence, etc. His rendering the original word metaphorically: His artificial colours, Rhetorical, etc. And my marshalling his reasons in a right method. Reply. I have gathered up into one bundle your pieces of a lighter concernment: I would not stay tything anise and Cummin, but I hasten to the weightier matters of the Law. A word only to each. For baiting my Quere with Truth and Peace, you allude to Christ's allegory, that we are fishers of men: and if I have no worse things to bait with then these two, Truth and Peace, none need, I hope, be afraid of the hook. And for the proof of them both, argument and time will evidence. For me, a private Divine, to put a Quere of State and Religion. What were John Hus, Wickliff, Luther, Paphnutius, who in their several ages gave out their testimonies? They were but single men, compared with Counsels and Synods. Not that I would compare with them, who am less than the least of all the mercies of God; yet they were but single, though singular men. And what if a private Divine? Jesus Christ may bid a private man stand and speak to the people. There is a Law of the Spirit commands to speak as well as the Law of a State; and though you speak by the later Law, another may speak by the former. And what though a Quere both of Religion and State? Is not our Covenant mixed accordingly of Religion and State? Doth not the State itself mix with Religion where Churches are national? And how can I speak properly but to both, where both are in interest? For my suggestion of a suspicion of haste; you know; words and phrases are not the same to all: one may interpret thus, another thus. I had no thought of Jehu's driving, as you imply, when I wrote. I must lay the supposed crime at your own doors, for it is none of mine; nor have I (nor any) reason to tax that Honourable Senate, whose Counsels are grave, and serious, and deliberate. Had I looked for Jehu, I should have looked to another coast and quarter, where they drive more furiously. Why deal you not more candidly? Why are you not more faithful in your interpretation to the Original? For that of my taxing the Ministers for desiring power; none have reason to speak but the guilty, it concerns not the innocent. It is not strange for some Ministers to affect Government, or rather ruling: we have so much of Prelacy yet left, and working in the Country with us; and if not in the City too I refer you to Master Coleman. For the word rendered from the Original metaphorically, I quoted only the Text, to my remembrance, to the Printers hand; and how he came by the metaphor, I know not; but I find fault as well as you: However, to make the best of it now; translations of Scripture are not all Grammatical, as you know; nor to the letter, as I could wish them with you. For Artificial Colours, or Rhetorioall; etc. You make me guilty of such varnish as I have not laid on, to my knowledge; nor have much to lay on, if I would: Truth and Peace, which were my subjects, are fair enough of themselves, without any colour of mine: And I desire not to bring forth either, but in the evidence and demonstration of the spirit; and if there be any thing of their own beauty there, call it not artificial, put not suspicions▪ and jealousies into any, that such things as they see are not so, to make men Scept●call. It is as much injury to Truth and Peace to misreport them, as to counterfeit them. And for your logical marshalling my reasons, I thank you, you took more pains with them than I would do. notional order I received them in. Nor dare I be too logical and notional in things divine. Systems and forms▪ of art, have done our Divinity some harm: Such Classes and methods of reason have been found too straight for the more spiritual enlargements of truth. Yet I honour your Learning, though I▪ thus speak. Master Ley's Resolution Page 9, & 10. His first reason taken from Rules of Faith, Rom., 4. 3, 13, etc. Now he should have planted his reason directly against the imposing a Government, rather than obedience to it; as thus, etc. Those that set up a Government which they are not fully persuaded on, sin: But, they that now set up Church-Government with power, etc. do set up a Government whereof they are not fully persuaded on: Therefore in so doing, they sin. The major is true, but the minor not, because of their faithful learned Counsellors, and Scripture-discussings. Reply. Since you will help me to prove you are welcome: You have furnished me with one Argument more: You are a fair enemy, to lend out your own weapon. And now you have made your Argument half for me, I shall make the other half myself. You say, What the imposers of Government cannot do in Faith, is sin: This is your half Argument. But you take it for granted, Our imposers of Government are not such, but such as are fully persuaded, and can set up the Government in faith; and you prove it thus, from those of their Counsellors so near them, and from their Scripture-discussions. First, I know not what Counsellors you mean; but they are too wise a Senate to be carried by any interest but their own; and I wish them no other Counsellors than Truth and Peace: nor do I know that they are so fully persuaded of any such Government. I believe some of them are not so fully principled for your way, and then they all are not persuaded so of the Government: nor have you yet been able to make out the evidence of every truth you presented them from clear Scriptures, saving your Art of deductions, and consequences, and prudence: and if all cannot be persuaded that State-conscience, or Public conscience, is not so wholly nor fully persuaded: then, as you imply, a State or Public conscience is like a Particular conscience; which if it doth not wholly consent, is doubtful, or weak; for it is not in Spiritual things as in Civil: Votes of major parts make laws, and they stand good from any such forms of Policy: but I never yet saw that rule in the Gospel for any such proceedings in spiritual things: but that is a Law in Christ's Kingdom, not that which is voted so, but that which is so in the truth of it: For else Popery were the best, for it hath most voices and counsels. So as unless you can prove the Parliament to be of one mind in it, how can you prove a Parliament so fully persuaded in mind as you imply? Let them prove a Truth by most voices that please or can; but I wish the business of a State-conscience, in a thing of this nature, were more enquired into then yet it hath been. But if the Parliament were fully persuaded of the truth of the Government, yet there would be a new question, yea▪ and is very learnedly discussed by our worthy Brethren, Master Coleman and the Commissioner, how they could be persuaded of the imposing, and power of settling. For my part, if there must be an imposing of Government (for I would have the State-consciences left to their liberty as well as Particular, and yet Truth to have the liberty of access unto them) I would have the power of the Parliament laid up there: we have had too sad experience when it hath been given out from thence, and trusted too far. Paul referred himself thither, (I stand, says he, at Cesar's Judgement-seat) rather then to the Council of the Priests and Elders. Christ had more favour from Pilate a Roman Governor, then from Caiaphas the Priest. One word more. How can the Parliament properly be said to be fully persuaded, etc. unless they could freely sign it with a Jus divinum, or divine Right? Nothing but Scripture and the Word, can properly fully persuade. Now if they cannot find so much Scripture as to warrant it for Christ's Government, how can there be a purely Gospell-warrantable, a full persuasion, or faith, where there wants a word of faith to secure it? And now I shall form your Argument, you half made to my hand thus, and return another with usury. Your Argument is this: Those that set up a Government which they cannot be fully persuaded on, cannot but sin. But, the Parliament cannot be fully persuaded of this Government: Therefore, if they set it up they cannot but sin. My proof is this in behalf of your Argument. That conscience which is not wholly consenting, is not fully persuaded. But, such is the State or Public conscience, viz. not fully consenting at this time: Therefore, the State-conscience is not fully persuaded. Note. Because some are more for it, some are less for it. I prove the State-conscience not fully consenting. That conscience which hath not Scripture to secure it, cannot be fully consenting or persuaded. But▪ such is the Public conscience at this time concerning this present Government: Therefore, the Public or State-conscience cannot be so fully consenting or persuaded. Note. Because they which cannot call it a Government by Divine Right, are not secured concerning it by the Word; and then, by conscience, are not fully consenting nor persuaded. Master Ley's Resolution pag, 9, & 10. If we take his reason to stand immediately against obedience, and so consequently against commands, etc. It is more formal, but still as feeble; Repugnant to Religion and reason, against former Protestations, and the Covenant; for some will always scruple, etc. Reply. Some of this might have been spared. Let us have as much reason, and as little reviling as may be. Your reason is, because than neither Protestations nor Covenant of State can be administered; for some will always scruple. So as here is the force of your reason; Because Protestations and Covenants in the State are put upon a people unwilling and malignant, therefore Government should. First, a truth of Government, and the establishment of it, is but indirectly, unsutably, and disproportionably proved from Oaths and Covenants. Indeed, under the Old Testament, and in the State of Israel, Covenants were more agreeable to the way of that Church; they were part of the Worship then; and it was a way of obligation and engagement, fitted more to the Policy of that Nation: They were a People or Nation of themselves, singled out from the world, and marked by a carnal Ordinance: And their Discipline was fitted to the whole Nation by God himself; and so Covenants, etc. gathered them up from the world into their national way of Worship, etc. But now, the way of Church and Worship changing, and the Laws of such kind of external pedagogy ceasing, and a more inward and spiritual Law coming in, you might have done well, ●re you took things thus for granted, to clear the way of Covenants under the Gospel, and not to prove one probable thing by another. Those of your way are against a little Church Covenant, and why not a great one? For the imposing of Protestations now, etc. It is not my work here to discuss; nor am I against any way of State-security, that may consist with ●ound Prudence: and for the spiritual part of them, wherein men covenant in the things of God▪ let every one be fully persuaded in his own mind: That is the Apostle's rule, I am sure, what ever any say to the contrary, and will stand. In civil things, I would have any way or design of assurance that is fairly and justly Politic: in spiritual things, only such ways of assurance as are Gospell-ways, and may sure with the New Testament-beleevers. And now you are to prove more than perhaps you thought on; that is, to clear a Church-covenant, which many of your Way are against: for though you condemn it in some Churches, not of your Way; yet a national Church-covenant you plead for. And how can this be both true and false, that a great Church-covenant is lawful, and a little one unlawful? A national Church-covenant lawful, and a Particular or congregational Church-covenant unlawful? This only by the way: To show you how one may mistake his way in a mist: you were proving a Government, and now you are engaged to prove Church covenants, which you are both for and against. And yet, after all this of Protestations and Covenants, there is no fair proof of establishing a Government, or imposing it in your way and design from these. It is not safe going to the State for a Pattern for the Church. If the State in certain seasons of unfaithfulness and unsettlement, contrive any way of security and assurance (necessity is often a law maker in States, yet not so in the Church) will you from hence argue for a liberty in the Church? Will you make necessity your Gospel, your Lawgiver there? Necessity is sometimes a suspender of laws in the Gospel, but no lawmaker. Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 10. But I answer: I wonder an ingenuous man, as M. Saltmarsh is, should make such an Objection. Reply. These are good words; and I hope you shall have no worse than you bring: Yet we must speak truth. Master Ley's Resolution, page 10. I answer: The Church government is such as in the chief parts of it is from the Word. Reply. You grant then that the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the Word; So was Episcopacy and Prelacy in some parts of it. There is not any false Worship or Way, but it hath some parts of truth in it. The great Image had a head of gold. etc. The Mystery of iniquity sits in the Temple of God, etc. The Whore of Babylon sits in Scarlet decked with gold, and precious stones, and Pearls. Truth must be all one and the same, and homogeneal, not in parts. The Jews had not the Law, but then their own traditions mingled. There is one Lord, one Faith; not two. Master Ley's Resolution, page 10. Things of lesser moment in it, though they are not directly from Scripture, yet not repugnant; they are of Prudence, and agreeable to the best Reformed Churches. Reply. But, Why of lesser moment? All things are of moment of spirituals. Indeed, if they be such as be not the Gospel▪ s, they are then, as you say, of lesser moment: and yet of moment too, in another sense; for, Traditions of men make void the Commandments of God. Nor are the grounds of Prudence any Scripture-grounds to rule by. Prudence hath let in more Will-worship than any thing. Prelacy had its Prudence for every New additional in Worship and Government: And if Presbytery take Prudence too, let the Reader judge what may follow. And what is that, Not directly from Scripture, yet not repugnant? Surely Christ's rule is not such; he opposes any Tradition to the Commandments of God. Not directly from Scripture, is repugnant to Scripture: Such is the oneness, entireness, indivisibility, and essentiality of the Truth. He that is not with me, is against me. And for the Reformed Churches as a rule; that is to set the Sun by the Dial, and not the Dial by the Sun. We must set the Churches by the Word, and not Church by Church, and the Word by the Church. Master Ley's Resolution, page 10. & 11. Because the practice of the Government belongs not to the people's part, but to the Ministers and Elders. Because, so far as concerns the people's compliance, they are to be instructed before they yield submission. Because if any remain unsatisfied, they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery, or to be ruled with the rod, but meekness, 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Because the ignorance of the people generally, which he would have for a reason to suspend it, aught to be rather a reason for expedition, that they may practically know it: for while it is unknown▪ it is slandered, which might have been more amiable. Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time, but for ever: I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people; ●▪ Thes. 5. 12▪ 13. 1▪ Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7▪ 17. Reply. To your first, It belongs not to the people, etc. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermeddling. But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people: I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people: and being once in a Churchway, they lose their old capacity for a new, and are raised up from People to Brethren, Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwin and Master Nye, That the Clergy got the golden ball of Government amongst them; and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery. But you say, The people must be instructed, that is, they must only know that they must obey. But they are called, and consulted with, and owned, as the Scripture holds forth, where ever there is any Church spoken of? But what though instructed? They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit. So the people under Popery, Prelacy, etc. were instructed, with that limitation and restriction. But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it? People, here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word; take it and examine it: if you be so persuaded, and that the Word holds it forth clearly, embrace it; if not, do not obey anything in blind and implicit obedience. This were fair dealing with Conscience; thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them. To that of the people's compliancy you speak on, it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly▪; but to make answer, that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people, are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them: viz. an Interest of compliance only, and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse. And when people are instructed, still your work remains to prove your Presbytery over Congregations, or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church; which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate, upon gathered Churches. And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to tax any for church-gathering, when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle. What is your Classical, your Provincial, your national Presbytery, but a Church gathered out of the rest, call it a virtual, or representative, or what you please? For that of Meekness; how meek it will prove, and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it, we are not to judge by any promises of Meekness, but by Principles. Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meekness, or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreme and of dominion? But what if such as yourself, and some other godly meek of your Way, may propound nothing but ways of meekness to yourselves? Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter, and for all of the Way, and for the Way in its own nature? There are things of meek appearances, as the Presbytery may be, yet prove not so. The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns, though a Lamb. Hazael could say▪ Am I a dog, that thou shouldest think so harshly of me, that I should kill the children in the womb, 2 King. 8? He as little suspected his own cruelty, which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to pass as you do in your Presbytery, which some, seeing into the nature of it, cannot but prophesy accordingly. You know Episcopacy began in meekness, and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace: But how proved they? Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meekness and Love, till it got seated in the Throne. So Absalon was very fair spoken in the Gate; but how was he in the Throne? For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery, which you say people shall not be put upon; it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meekness, a spirit of more love and ingenuity: But what is this to the nature of the Government, that some in it are well natured? And for that of sin and misery; surely if the Presbytery be set on with power, many a one will be in that snare, partly in fear, and partly in an easy complyancy: For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution: And you yourself say, The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be? Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis? or how? I would this were well cleared. And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod, etc. and in meekness instructing, etc. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government: These are good Laws; but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them, and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules, as in all other Laws and Kingdoms. But what is this to your purpose, till your Government appear to be all Christ's? To that of the ignorance of the people, which you would have for a reason of expedition rather than susponsion, that they may practically know it; I answer: In practical godliness, the Scripture-way is not so: Things must first be known, before practically known, or else the obedience can be but mixed, blind, and Popish. Who can practically obey, taking practically in a Scripture-sense, that is, with knowledge, till they know and be persuaded? Indeed in things civil, &c, or moral, practice may bring in knowledge; habits may be acquired and gotten by Acts; a man may grow temperate by practising temperance, and civilly obedient practising civil obedience: But it is not so in Spirituals, there, habits go before acts, spiritual infusions before practices. And for the amiableness of it, look into other Reformed Kingdoms, and see what power of godliness is there by reason of it. Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinful, corrupt, formal? For Scotland, our brethren's preaching and watchfulness, it may be more powerful in a Reformation upon them, than their Government. And further, I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reform the outward man: So may a mere prudential Government, a mere civil Government, if sincerely executed. The Romans had a very moral people under their Yoke, when their laws were well executed. Prelacy and Bishops had a Government which was Antichristian, yet by an exact execution, could chastise the outward man in some measure. For your other reason: That my Texts make against not only the suspending for a time, but for ever; I answer. It is true, Principles and circumstances considered: For if neither the Government be Christ's, nor the people Nationally a Church, when can you settle it? And if there be no Gospell-promises, that people shall fall in so nationally as the jews did, excepting some that concern the world in general, as Isai. 49. 22. then how or when will you settle, or what will you settle, or upon whom? And for the Texts you commend to me for preaching, 1 Thes. 5. 12. etc. they all concern people's obedience to their Elders and Rulers; they are very material and pertinent to that: And I shall in requital commend some other back to you; as those of not lording it over the Heritage: Against preeminence; as helpers of your faith; of service, and ministry: We are your servants; we entreat you, and beseech you, not seeking our own things, not for filthy lusre, but of a ready mind, etc. We must consider, Scripture must be taken in the wholeness and entireness of it; and we must not only mind people of their obedience, but Elders and Ministers of their service, duty, Ministry, humility, self-denial, etc. And thus in a just distribution, deal out both to Ministers and people their measure. Master Ley's Resolution, page 12. Strange that he should plead for a delay in establishing of Reformation from the Covenant, wherein we are bound to endeavour it sincerely, really, etc. and more strange, under the title of Popery too, which in the next Article of Popery is disavowed, Reply. Not so strange as you make it; for we are covenanted to endeavour a setting up the Government, not a Government; that is, as it is expounded in the Article, the Government, or Reformation according to the Word of God, etc. not a Government or Reformation of any other sort. So as I plead for a delay only in setting up a Discipline, not the Discipline: or more plainly, that the Discipline be such, that the covenanters may not violate that Article, wherein they are bound to do every thing according to the Word, and so prove unfaithful in their covenant, while they are most zealous for it. There was such a kind of mistake in the Jews, who would have stoned the Lord of the Sabbath in zeal to the Sabbath, and following after righteousness, yet did not attain to the righteousness of God. And for the title of Popery which I put upon such obedience; which you say cannot be, because discovered in the next Article of the Covenant: I answer, The Popery is not in the covenant, but in the Interpretations upon it, and the mistaken practice of it, which is the thing I only aver. O! How soon may we be Popish under a Covenant against it! What are the maintenance of Ministers by Tithes? Jewish and Popish undeniably, and yet no notice of this at all. I had as great a Tithe once as another, but I could not hold it so, neither by Covenant nor Gospel. Nor do I tax the Parliament, but those who are betrusted to commend Spiritual grievances to their Senate, etc. Brethren, let us lay down these grievances: Countries and Famalies are burdened: Let not the Ministers have their hooks abroad in every thing of the peoples, like Elies' sons. We know the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Netherlands take their Tithes to maintain their wars, and will not let their preachers live by decimation, burr by pension. And methinks you that profess ingenuity, should be so candid to distinguish where you see I distinguish, and not to force on constructions of this nature, which neither any thing of mine nor the Covenant will bear. And for what you say concerning the composers and penners of the Covenant, I am willingly silent: I would not aggravate any thing against a Brother, as you are, which might be only a failing in your Pen. Master Ley's Resolution pag. 12, & 13. For that he saith of people's implicit obedience, etc. of their being devoted to any thing the State sets up by Statutes, cannot be for these reasons: Because, as in the former Reason, Instruction must go before. Because, for that of their being devoted, it makes against setting up Doctrine as well as Discipline, and Authority of Parliament as well as Authority of Ministry: They not Ministers, make Statutes. Reply. To your first, That instructions must go before, I have answered to this before, as you expounded it before: One word more will suffice. What kind of instruction is it you mean, but authoritative compulsive instruction, such as the Schoolmasters, even your own instance, and here most pertinent, who teaches and whips every one of those that will not understand as well as he? Something an unreasonable way of correction in matters of pure belief and conscience, and best amongst boys, as your instance implies: Men of Scripture-consciences cannot bear it. And for that you say it makes against Doctrine as well as Discipline: Yea, in some sort it is granted; for neither Doctrine nor Discipline ought to be forced but in a gospel-way. And for that you say it makes against the Parliament, because they make Statutes: I answer, Nothing makes against a Legislative power, which reduces it to ruder, and clearer, and free▪ Principles. And thus the Parliament very justly argues in all their Remonstrances touching the King, while they go about to reduce him to his just Rights, from those exorbitances he suffers himself to be brought into. For instance: He that wishes the Parliament might only proceed in a way, not grieving the Spirit nor hazarding the persecution or Truth, nor oppressing any Gospell-principle, to which they are covenanted, not keeping on in any sin of former Parliaments, of severe imposing in matters of Religion so controvertible: Is not he, I say, that so wishes, a better friend to Parliaments, Laws and Statutes, than those of contrary Principles? Nay, I must profess that to me that very one Article of Reforming to the Word of God, most providentially inserted, is an Article of Caution, both against imposing and punishing, lest through want of a clear discerning, we be found▪ violaters of that we covenant to maintain, and aught to be sadly considered by all. Master Ley's Resolution, page 12, & 13. His second reason of experience, That the speedy settling, etc. takes little root but in the outward man, etc. concluding pathetically, Why, do not days speak, and multitude of years teach knowledge? In answer, 1. That the fault was not in over-speedy settling, but in the choice of a wrong Government. 2. Because the Doctrine goeth on with Discipline, and so the power of the Word may go deep into the conscience, as a Schoolmaster who teaches and corrects. 3. Because the Discipline is an hedge or wall about the Doctrine, a goad to the Means of Grace, a curb to licentious courses; though with many it go but to the outward man, that is not to be imputed to the Discipline, but their corruptions, etc. 4. Because where the Discipline hath been rightly chosen and settled, God hath blessed it with better fruits; as in Scotland, where there is no Heresy nor Schism, etc. 5. For that of Elihu in Job, Why, do not days speak, etc. it makes not for his purpose; but that Wisdom is with the ancient, and gray-headed to be heard before young or green-headed Counsellors, etc. Reply. To your first, That the fault was in the choice of a wrong Government, etc. I answer: That is the fear now, lest there should be a choice of a wrong Government, and so the same fault should be committed again: And this very Government hath no Image of Divine Right upon it, nor hath it warrant in all things from the Word, as yourself acknowledge. To your second: That Doctrine and Discipline go together, etc. Yea, pure Doctrine and pure Discipline go rightly together; and if either be impure or unsound, there is so much the more danger: So as this is an Argument rather against you, because where Doctrine opens the conscience, and lets in any thing of Discipline but that of the pure Word, there is one evil only mended with another. And for your instance of a Schoolmaster, who both teaches and corrects: You know we are not to prove but to illustrate by similitudes: And that of a Schoolmaster is a fitter illustration for the pedagogy of the Law, and that Discipline than the Gospels: You know the Apostle uses it only to that; The Law was our Schoolmaster, etc. Gal. 3. To that of your description of the Government, that it is a curb, a goad, etc. I answer; There is nothing you say of Government in these words, but may be said of any civil Government, nay, of Prelacy, when it was in its primitive form. But that only which you ought to say, and that which only differences it from all devised forms of men, as your Covenant binds you, and aught to be your only reason for erecting and setting it up, is this: Is it the Scriptures form or model? Is the people so in the exercise and capacity of it as in the Gospel's times? If so, than you prove something. And further: All this you say is true in a kind too of Christ's Government; but yet, in some sort communicable with devised Governments. The only distinguishing and essential marks are not to be a curb and goad, but the Scriptures only mark and image, and some spiritual operations, etc. which no other devised form of man hath. To your other, of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland that there is no Heresy nor Schism there, Let Master Coleman (our learned and pious Brother) speak for us both, from his experiences. And for that Kingdom, time will show whether it will prove to be a blessing or no, to want that which you call Heresy or Schism. Surely to be free from Heresy and Schism, in a Scripture sense, it is such a blessing as the whole Gospel cannot pattern. What? No Heresy in a whole Kingdom? No Schism in a whole Kingdom? Never such a pure Church heard on? Corinth, Ephesus, Colosse, Jerusalem, Antioch, all not comparable? The worst I wish our Brethren there, is, that all were so pure as we hear on. Indeed Scotland had the honour to awaken us first in the work of Reformation and Liberty; but lest Scotland should be puffed up, England shall have the glory (I hope) to improve that liberty to a fuller light, which some would close up too soon, in the narrowness of a Presbytery. Methinks there is something of this nature considerable in the Lutherans, who though they follow the first Light in Germany, yet the Lord hath suffered them to stick there without a fuller Reformation, that the first may be last, and the last be first; For if a State be covenanted so close to the Word, they had need be favourable and free to all that are accordingly covenanted; for each man's conscience is the Interpreter in himself of what makes for or against the Covenant he takes; and by this very Covenant, you are all to be tender to consciences, because the Spirit of God (not power of men) can intterpret the Will of God; but in their civil and prudential things only, they may interpret themselves. To that of Job, That with the ancient, is wisdom and with the gray-headed; which you apply in way of reproach to the younger, whom you call as it were green-heads: I answer, That the elder I esteem as fathers, and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speaks more gloriously, as he himself saith; Your young men shall see visions, and upon your sons and daughters I will pour out my Spirit, your old men shall dream dreams. Now whether is it more excellent to dream dreams, or to see visions? The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces. Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation, then to the elder that dream dreams of it only. Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 15, & 16. There is great disproportion of times. Men were then converted from Paganism, and while they were so, they were uncapable. Our Congregations in England are professed Christians; and though there be many not so wrought on by the Word, etc. That is rather a reason for the establishment of it, Ezek. 22. 26, 1 Cor. 4. 21. Prov. 23. 13, 14. Nor can Sabbath nor Sacraments be administered without it. Reply. To that of the disproportion (you speak on) of times, and conversion, etc. I answer: The Apostles and Primitive times are the times we are to look at for a pattern and model. 'Tis true, there is great disproportion; for they were Apostles who gave the government then; yet are but private Divines, as you say by me, if you be compared with them. For that of the conversion from Paganism to Christianity: There is no such disproportion there neither, but that very proportion which our Saviour hath himself foretold, and set forth: For how doth a jewish and Antichristian State differ? Nay, how doth a Heathenish or Paganish State, differ from an Antichristian or Parochial State, as Parochial or Parish is in that notion? Christ hath put them that are out of the Church under that very notion, Matth. 19 17. and the spirit in the Revelation makes the Antichristian State to be as unlawful as a Paganish, and calls out equally from that as from the other, as by comparing, 2 Cor. 6. 17. Rev. 18. 4. together will appear. So, as speaking of things and notions, I cannot but speak in a Scripture way nor am I uncharitable in this neither, though I thus speak; I look on thousands in this State as godly believers: It is not the Pastors I write against, but the way. There may be a Moses in Pharaohs Court; a joseph in Po●phar's house; a Cornelius, or devout man, though out of the Church; a Luther even in Rome, till the Lord enlighten. So as government and discipline is a Churches right, and privilege, not the worlds and Nations privileges, as so and then. Where are all your quoted Texts which are applied? Surely that of Corinth, is the Churches; and that of Ezekiel, and Proverbs, makes not for the discipline of a Church at all. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 16, & 17. He makes a comparison betwixt material and spiritual buildings, as stone and timber should not be clapped together in the one, soon in the other. 1. Similitudes may illustrate but not prove any thing. 2. Conformity betwixt material and spiritual things is not to be carried too far. 3. In material buildings, or the Temple, there is not only squared stones, but pieces and rubbish which have their use; not so in the spiritual; all things there are homogeneal, and square, and living stones, etc. 4. Those that he accounts rough and unsquared, are in some conformity, though not so polished as others. 5. The best stones are not to be taken from the rest, to make up a building by themselves, as in separated Congregations. 6. Let him show any such example in the New Testament where when there was a mixture of holy and profane, as in Corinth, i Cor. 11. 21. the Apostles gathered out the holy part. 7. That of Axes and Hammers hath a mysterious truth in it, but not to his purpose, viz. That the spiritual building is built of the soft and secret whispers and motions of the spirit. Reply. To that of the similitudes: I fully agree with you, they illustrate better than they prove. To that of not carrying a conformity betwixt materials and spirituals too high: I agree with you in that too, yet not so fully; for jesus Christ the great Prophet of the Gospel preached the glory of the Kingdom in material comparisons, in salt, water, leven, mustardseed, sowers, husbandmen, vines, vineyards, etc. To that of spiritual buildings, which you say are to be made up only of squared living stones: I agree with you, and here the controversy might be ended: If your Temples shall be of living stones, the controversy is granted: But because I will not seem to mistake you, I believe the spiritual building you mean, and I, are not the same here: You mean as it appears, the invisible spiritual, or Church mystical; and yet there, all is not so Homogeneal, and of the same kind neither: The head of the body is both God and man, and one member like one star differs from another in glory. But, we are speaking of the spiritual building or Church here, which is the Image of the Church above; and as that is of true, real, essentially spiritual living stones: so the Church below is to consist at least of such as visibly and formally appear so; and therefore the Apostle calls them in his Epistles Saints, and called to be Saints. And to that of your pieces of Rubbish in the material building: It is true; But what is that to Salomon's Temple, which my comparison drives up to? How much Rubbish can you prove in that type, nay, square stones, pure Cedar, gold, etc. to figure out the Gospell-building or Temple, as in Heb. 9 So as your rubbish is only in your own allusion, not in mine. To that of your unpolished stones in your Parishes which may fit the Temple now; I answer: It must be then only such a building as the material one you speak on, which is made up of rubbish and broken pieces: and if that be according to 1 Cor. 19 Eph 2. 19, 20, 21, 22. Christ's pattern, let these Scriptures in the margin, with many more, determine. And for their submitting indeed, there is a national, blind, traditional obedience in them, I cannot call it Gospel submission. To that of the best stones not to be taken out to make up a building, I answer: I am sure we are to take in no ill, unhewn, unpolished; and the Scripture cautions and practice are clear, etc. then judge you what the stones must be. Nor do we so pick and choose as if all stones were to be square alike, or equally polished; that is, not in any material building: Though we would take in no rubbish, yet we take in stores differently squared. As in the body one member differs from another; the eye, and hand, and foot, etc. and members less honourable, 1 Cor. 12. so in the body of the Church, every one according to his measure, and as every one hath received. Nor do we stand so for the first polishing as you pretend. You make as if we set up such degrees of perfection as were only the degrees of the invisible or mystical body, when it is merely in the degrees of visible Gospell-perfection. By this you would make the carnal to abhor, and the weaker to stumble and be offended; as if the door of our Churches were not open for any such whom you imply, were of a temper merely Spiritual, and of a size of our own, not the Scriptures. Let the doors of our Churches be as straight as you imply, I am sure your doors are set open, or rather cast off the hinges: but a pure Gospel-entrance is neither too wide nor too narrow. We know there is smoking flax, and bruised reeds, measures of grace: If they can willingly submit to jesus Christ their Lawgiver, and walk as members of the body; here they may receive polishing, and have honour, and building up, and many other degrees of perfection which the Saints of God obtain when they are in fellowship with the Father and the Son. To that of your challenge, that I should show any such example in the New ●●stament of taking out the best, when there was a mixture of holy and profane; I answer: Those were Gospel-Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel-fellowship: and when you make your Parishes to appear such Churches, than I shall tell you more: till then, I suspend your challenge. The world, and an Antichristian Nation, are both under Christ's fan for gathering them out. To that of a mysterious truth you speak on in the Axes and Hammers, I agree with you in that; and because of the mystery, I therefore quoted it. And whereas you sum up all the mystery into the soft whisper and motions of the Spirit, you can hardly warrant us, or secure us that your interpretation is the whole mind of the Spirit, and that very interpretation of yours is part of it the very same I aim at, viz. to show how the Gospel-building is softly gathered and made up by the Ministry of the Word and Spirit, and not with Axes and Hammers, tools of a compulsive, forcing, sharp, and authoritative nature, as etc. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 17, 18 19 For that of his, etc. whore he makes Christ's description of himself, etc. to be against the establishment, and the suitableness Christ presses for; I answer: 1. If his reason be of force against a speedy Government, it is as well against a Government at any time. 2. That Christ in his own nature, and his Government, differ exceedingly. Christ came to suffer, Paul. 2. 7. 3. Neither is Christ so remiss as not to take upon him a Government. The Head must govern the Body. Nor so meek: He hath anyron Rod as well as a golden Sceptre, Psal. 2. 9 Esth. 5. 2. and though he was sometimes a servant, etc. yet sometimes a Lord too, John 2. 14. and though he be a Lamb, yet he hath a formidable mouth too, etc. Rev. 8. 15. 4. For his Scriptures produced, Mat. 12. 19 1 John 5. 3. they make nothing against a speedy, but against a grievous Government. And though his yoke be easy, yet not easy to flesh and blood, Matth. 5. 29. and 16. 2, etc. as in self-denial. 5. Nor hath his other place any sober sense in it, Matth 9 7. nor makes it against Government at this time, but any time. The wine will be always new at the first; and the longer delayed the older will the bottles be. Reply. To that, If against a speedy Government, then against a Government at any time; I answer: How do you infer that? Nothing of those makes against the Government of Christ rightly constituted, and ordered and settled upon those called to be Saints. Indeed they make against any other Government at all times as well as now. Nor will there be always such a people under Christ's yoke as you think on. But you look further abroad than I, and in that we mistake one another. You look that whole Kingdoms and Nations should submit, and I look only for one of a Tribe, two of a City, etc. Your Horizon and the Scripture's, for Government, are not equal. To that of Christ's nature and Government differing so much, and therefore my Text proves nothing; I answer: Every thing of Christ's bears the Image of Christ. Every Truth of His hath something of Himself in it, who is Truth itself by way of excellency: I am the Truth, saith he. Every beam of light is light: Then how can Christ and his Government differ so as you pretend? Surely, if we observe well, there is not any Truth but it partakes of Him who is The truth, and is a beam or sparkle of him. Truth is Homogeneal, and not so unlike and contrary dispositioned and natured as you pretend. And for your expounding the Text, He shall not strive, etc. as a prophecy, you do well in part; but you know Prophecies have a latitude, and Scriptures have not only one main and principal, but many subordinate aims: so as though this Scripture concern his sufferings principally, yet it doth in a latitude set forth the nature of Him who is Truth; & in Him we may see how those things which are pretended for Truth hold proportion. To that of Christ the Head, and taking the Government of his Body, etc. I answer: It is true, Christ is a Head, but he is not a Head to every Body. He will have a Body proportionable to his Head. Is a Nation of all sorts a fit Body for such a Head? Is he not a pure, holy glorious Head in his Gospell-dispensation? and is a Body so leprous, so wicked, so formal, so traditionally and Antichristianly corrupted, a fit Body? Shall I take the members of my body, saith Paul, and join them to an harlot, to make one flesh? God forbid. What then shall the Head do with such Members? To that of His Ruling with a Rod of Iron as well as a golden Sceptre, Psa. 2. Esth 5. I answer. And doth He rule any in his Church with his Rod of Iron, who were not called in first by his Golden Sceptre? And for that of his Iron Rod in Psal. 2. that is spoken of Christ, not as King of his Church, but of Nations. And that of Esth. 5. what is that Golden Sceptre to Christ's? unless you bring a Text only to prove that there is such a thing as a Golden Sceptre in the Scriptures. For your other Texts of Christ's, being a servant and a Lord, a Lamb and terrible; you only prove what I grant, that he is more a King, and a Lord in his Government, then in any other of his Gospel-dispensations: But all this will not prove the Lordship of such a Presbytery or Government. Certainly you intent it a terrible Government, because you bring in those Texts that have all the judgement and severity in them which Christ threatens to the Nations and Kings of the earth, not to his Churches. Will you make Christ rule in his Church as he doth in the world? well, let your Presbytery enjoy the Iron Sceptre, while the Churches of Christ enjoy the Golden; and try if you ruin not more than you rule, and break not more than you bow. To that of Mat. 12. 19 1 john 5. 3. The yoke easy, &c they make not against a speedy, but a grievous Government; I answer: I cannot express myself better then in your own words; They make against a grievous Government, which is all I aim at in the Quotation. And whereas you say the yoke is not easy to flesh and blood; so say I too, it is very burdensome, and the Commandments grievous to the unregenerate; and therefore I prove from hence, that it is only a fit and suitable yoke for the Saints, and a Commandment for them. And there is the same proportion of the outward government to the outward man, that there is of the other spiritual Laws in the Gospel to the inward man, and none but the Saints can delight in either. Men are to be spiritually moulded and framed to the Law of Gospel-discipline: that kind of Discipline is not like your civil Discipline: this way of Discipline you would have, is too Politic and national; it takes in a people to subdue as the Laws of Civil Policy, which finding a people unsubdued▪ subdues them: So doth not Christ as we read of; the dispensation of the Word (not the government) subdues. And thus with much ado, you only prove them to be as I intended them, no Commandments for the mixed and unregenerate, or in a word, Christ's government no national government. To that where you say, Nor hath his place any sober sense in it, Mat. 9 17. The new wine will be always new, and the longer delayed, the older the bottles will be; I answer: I wonder that one of your experience in the Majesty of the Word, should be so pleasant with a Scripture allegory, because the Scripture is of wine. You jest on it, as if it had made the sense less sober: I am sorry my younger pen should reprove the aged for jesting, which the Apostle says is not convenient. And truly it is not comely for the servants to play upon the Master of the Feast, or any thing in his house, especially upon his wine, which alludes so to his blood, and which he hath promised to drink with us new in his Father's Kingdom. Nor will the wine be always new to those that are renewed as they ought to be indeed; for your Parishes which you call old Bottles, I am sure the wine, or pure government, is too new for them. Nor will the Bottles be older, as you say, the longer the government is delayed, if the power of the Word be there for renewing them. But you say, What sense is this? What logical connexion? I answer, that shall appear there is sense enough, and connexion enough; and Logic enough, though I had rather have more Scripture and less Logic; for all I aim at, is what the Scripture aims at, that the bottles should be fit for the wine, the necks for the yoke, and the subjects for the commands. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 23, & 24. To that of his, That Jesus Christ could as easily have set up his government by miracle, had there been such a primary, etc. necessity, etc. 1. The acts and times for divine Providence towards his Church are various. God had his Church at first and no written Word for it till the Law was writ, and Moses wrote, etc. And God added to the moral Laws, ceremonial and judicial, divers of which were not executed till forty years after, at their coming into Canaan; so far ws God beforehand. 2. Whereas he saith, Christ could as easily have settled the government by miracle; we grant it, yea, and more, without a miracle; and yet more that he did so, in Mat. 16. 19 John 10. 23. Mat. 18. 15, 16, 17. 3. If Christ's delay of Government must be our example, then as well for the anabaptistical delay of Baptism till his age, Luke 3. 23. nor was it John's office to set up a Government, but to prepare the way, etc. And Christ's public Ministry lasted but four years, or three years and a half, and he began then to set up Government. Reply. All your proof reaches but to this: 1. That God dealt variously with his Church. They had first no written Word, and after, a written Word. 2. That Christ could have settled his Government by miracle, but did not. 3. That Christ's delay of Government must be no more our example then his Baptism. My proof was to show there was no such moral necessity of the settling, because it was not settled. Now, what have you overthrown here? Not that Christ suspended his Government, and the se●ling of it; for, that you grant with me, and prove it more at large then I did: so as all your rest will be answered in two particulars. 1. To that of God's Church and Government before his Word, etc. which you would insinuate as some advantage to your serling, etc. What is that to God's dispensation now, if there wanted a Word, there was a supplement of vision and dreams, etc. And I hope you will not go before the Law, so much as you do for a Pattern: You go too far when you go to the times of the Law: You have a Prophet now to hear in all things, Act. 3. 22 2. To that of Baptism to be delayed as well as Government from Christ's example: I cannot dispute that here. Master Tomes will satisfy you at large in his learned Examen, where he hath made work for a whole Assembly; That he knows not but it may be delayed till they be of years. But, to answer you in your scope: You bring this to prove, That Christ is not to be imitated in all things. I grant it. But what is that to prove that Christ settled not his Government when he began his Ministry, or john's? For the business on your part is to find out, either that the Government was settled before, or with the Ministry, or there was as much necessity of it as of the Word; but for some reason, and not from any thing in the nature of the Government, but some other extrinsical reason it was delayed: Which ought not to take place now. And this is yet to prove; all your proof summed up, reaches not to this. But you imply, The will of God in his dispensations was the cause: But the will of God in his dispensations carries a rule of righteousness along with it, and of spiritual reason. And in Gospel's dispensations and extrinsical proceedings of Gods will, you will find a rule and golden reed of righteousness measuring the Temple; and every dispensation, and even this of suspending Government hath its rule in the Gospel, that a word of obedience must precede and go before a form of obedience, and a word of faith before the obedience of faith, and living stones before a living Temple. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 24, & 25. Whereas he saith the gifts for Government were not given till Christ ascended, it is answered: 1. That he ascended 43 days after his ministration; and that added to the year forementioned, makes but small difference, etc. 2. He put his Apostles upon neither of these offices, preaching or governing, without competent gifts an ●●ualifications. 3. For the model of it, which he saith people fell under as they were capable: If he mean the written model in the Word, though it were young in Christ's time or his Apostles, yet not now; we have had 1500 years' si●c●. Why should that which is so old in constitution, be thought too soon for execution? And besides Scripture directions, we have many years the patterns of ●● in many Reformed Churches. 4. It hath by soft and slow degrees been brought in, a● both in debates of Assembly, Parliament, etc. And so for execution ●●●; First, an Ordinance for Ordination, and then a Directory, etc. Reply. You prove here: 1. That Christ gave gifts when he ascended, and▪ not any longtime in all his ministration and sending gifts. 2. That he qualified ●●s. Apostles for government and preaching. 3. That the government of Christ now so old, should be seen set up as in other Kingdoms. 4. That it proceeded by degrees in its setting up here. Now all this thus gathered up, proves not any thing against my assertion, that Christ proceeded by degrees in his Ministry, and giving out his government; but rather strengthens my assertion. And for your Arguments for settling, employed in these particulars: 1. That Christ's government was but a while in bringing forth, the years considered. 2. That the government in the Gospel being now so old, might to be soon executed. 3. That the Patterns of it are in other Reformed Churches. I answer to all these in as few words: 1. Prove your Argument first to be Christ●, the particulars, and entireness accordingly, and then I shall allow you your Argument; but you grant it to be but partly Christ's, and partly the Assemblies, or of Prudence. 2. You must prove but the same again, that the government you have, is the government, there withal Gospel-necessaries take in; else, though the Gospel-government be never so old, yours is but new; and this Argument is no better than the first. 3. Prove the other Reformed Kingdoms to be Reform Churches, as Churches are taken in the Gospel, and their Patterns pure Gospel-paterns, which by your own you acknowledge to be in part prudential or humane as well as Evangelical and Divine; and then your reason may have some force in it. Till then, you see with all you can do, you cannot prove but Christ's government was divers years in bringing forth by himself and his Apostles; and so by your own account, you ought not to be before them, unless you assume fuller Revelations of truth than they did. Let the Reader judge whether any of these makes for the setting up your government, or the taking down my reasons. To your last; That this Reformation hath proceeded by slow pa●es and degrees. What? Would you prove it by its slow proceedings to be Christ's Government, and therefore to be settled? That were a strange kind of reasoning: Because Christ proceeded by degrees in giving out the glory of his Kingdom here, therefore every thing that proceeds by degrees, is Christ's Government. Here is some kind of Logic indeed, as you say, but no Scripture: as for instance; He that says such a one is a living creature, says truly; He that says such a one is a beast, says he is a living creature: Therefore will it follow, He that says such a one is a beast, says truly; So, He that says Christ's Government proceeded slowly, says truly; He that says your government proceeded slowly, says truly; Therefore, He that says your government is Christ's government, says truly. What have you got now by your Logic? Whereas you say in your second, Christ gave gifts and qualifications for government: I answer; If you and your Parishes have such gifts and qualifications as in Ephes. 4. 1 Cor. 12. set it up when you please; if not what haste? Master Ley's Resolution, Pag. 26, & 27. Now to his Rules and Considerations of Prudence; The more time (saith he) for trying spirits, the less danger to that State, etc. I answer: 1. It is the duty of a State not only to try spirits, but to rule them. And rather to rule them, then to try them, Prov. 29. 15. and the longer they live without the yoke of Discipline, the more enormous. And for trying all things, there is a due proportion of time to be observed. Though it hath been the ill hap of our Chureh, etc. to have the government fluttering on the lime twig at Westminster, when it should be on the wing of actual execution all over the Kingdom. 2. He makes it a dangerous matter for the State to involve itself into the designs of Ecclesiastical power. But unseasonably applied to Presbyteriall-government, because both Popish and prelatical power is abjured by it by covenant. 3. Whereas he saith, There can be no danger in the not too sudden incorporating, etc. since Moses is not alive etc. a new star may arise. It is a groundless conceit refuted already; and for that of Moses, etc. he bewrayeth his design to debar the government for ever; and for that of a new star arising, it prepares the way for some Barchochebas who pretending to be jacob's Star misled the Jews, and was called Benchozba, the son of a lie. Reply. You prove against me: 1. That people ought to be ruled rather then tried, etc. 2. That sometime is to be allowed for trial. 3. That the government hath been fluttering too long at Westminster. 4. That there is no danger to fear the Presbyterial government, which hath abjured Popery etc. Dominion by Covenant. 5. That some of this is refuted already. 6. That my design is to debar it for ev●●. 7. That a new Star is a misleading star▪ To your first I reply; It is true in civil government, rule there rather than try: But what is that to Church-government, or Discipline? The rule there, is the will of God, which is the only rule in government, and legislative power in the Church; and that is, Try all things before either you rule or be ruled. To your second; Some time you will allow (I see) for trial; but you ought not to measure and deal out time but by the Standard of the Word; and before you call for such quick obedience as you do, and as the Apostles did, prove your power, and truth, and conclusions, and by such Apostolical and infallible evidence, and then it is our sin if we submit not. And let the time you deal out not be like that of States and Armies in their Treaties, who are final and peremptory in the seasons they set: You cannot set such time; the Spirit breathes when and were it listeth. To your third; What is that to the present Discipline what the Covenant abjures? Covenant and Discipline are two distinct things; a Covenant may abjure in word, what yet a government may practise indeed. Nor is it enough to abjure Popery in gross, but in every part & parcel. And now having abjured, it is not enough to sit down in that satisfaction that we have sworn against Popery; but to search out, lest we be forsworn in the practice of it. Such a duty begins from the time of abjuring; and it lies not only upon the State to find out Popery; but every one in his own particular is engaged, you and I, and every Covenanter: and therefore seeing you have engaged thousands by conscience against Popery, and to endeavour etc. you are bound to give the same conscience liberty to bring in its result and enquiry; else you make it a snare and trouble to Israel, and not a Covenant. And now I profess here a just and undeniable liberty by Covenant to bring forth all of Popery, Prelacy, or truth they know. To your other; Why should ye speak of governments fluttering on a lime-twig at Westminster? Sure the State or Parliament may deserve better of any of the Assembly▪ then to be thought their retarders or l●me twigs: How have they honoured them above their Brethren, printing their engagements to the world before every Sermon, calling them into so near a capacity with themselves? though Divines have been unfortunate before, and their Predecessors raised in the courtesy and piety of former States and Parliaments into a Law and power above their Brethren; which I hope our Brethren will remember and beware of. But because I would not wholly interpret you into so dangerous a sense against the State, it may be you may call your dissenting Brethren the lime-twig; which if you do, you are contrary to your own Argument, for you argued but lately the slow proceeding into a very warrantable and Scripture-way: and will you now mar●all, and defile your Argument with a lime-twig, and bewray rather your slow proceeding to have been of constraint than conscience? To your other; That this is already refuted: I say no more; but as you have formerly refuted, so I have formerly answered, To your other; That my design by that of Moses is to debar it for over; I answer: Yea, forever would I debar a government not clear from the Word, and not one hair would I debar a government that had the name of Christ in Scripture-letters engraven upon it, pure Gospell-principles and proceedings. To your other; That a new-star is to prepare for a misguider, and your story of Barchochebas upon it, it hath more light someness then light in it. But why should you be so pleasant with my expression of truth by a Star? It is the very allegory of the Spirit. Christ calls himself the morning star, the light which springs from above. The Spirit is called the daystar arising in our hearts; and the Spouse is attired in a crown of twelve stars. Nor do I call to any to look for a new created star of truth, but an old, yet new appearing star to us, one of those stars in the Gospell-firmament, which the Clouds of Tradition and Ignorance hinder us from seeing; And now, what of your story? But what way is most likely to misled? That which b 〈…〉 you prove and try all things and accordingly follow? or that which saith, This is the way, compel them to come in, not only as the Gospel compels in the Parable by a Spirit of power but by a civil power; not a power of word only, but of State too: and so tw-sting the Gospel with the Law, and humane authority with divine? Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 27, 28, 29. To his other prudent all rule, which is, That he makes the Civil and Ecclesiastical power so linked, that if there be motions in the one, there will be no quietness in the other; I answer: 1. He aims at the perpetual prohibition, not at a temporal forbearance only. He carries it on so, as if we must allow him the authority of a Politic Dictator. 2. What if they reciprocate interests? must the Civil State leave every man or Congregation to be governed? Judg. 17.6. 3. Because disturbances are communicated, therefore the Civil State ought to settle the Ecclesiastical, that it may enjoy its own peace. the●olleration ●olleration of the Protestants of France; Henry the fourth being a Protestant, though a revolter, and recovering his rights by the arms of Protestants, he could do no less in humanity then allow them their Religion; though now tolerated, because the trust: est friends to the Crown of France. For that of the State being most free where the conscience is least straitened: If free in indulgence to all Religions, he complies with the Author of The Bloody Tenet: If free from commotions, experience in several Ages and Countries prove the contrary. For that of his Parable of the Tears and the Wheat: If there must be such mixtures tolerated, what warrant have they to pluck the Wheat from the Tares, nay, Wheat from Wheat, in their now gathering Churches? Reply. You prove against my reason the compliance and nearness of the Civil and Ecclesiastical power, occasioning motions in each other. 1. By the authority I assume of a Politic Dictator. But what doth my assuming prove against the complyaney and motions of the two Powers? This is no proof against the two Powers of Church and State, but against use. I hope you conceive not they are concentred in me a private Divine, as you call me; nor would I give any thing out in way or Magistrality, but evidence: you and I, and Assemblies of men, are not infallible. 2. By my aiming at the perpetual prohibition. But what doth this prove against the compliancy and motions in the two powers? This is still against me, not against my reason. And further, because I suggest a reason of not embodying the Civil and Ecclesiastical Powers too suddenly, therefore, saith he, I aim a 〈…〉 perpetual prohibition. How doth this follow? I aim to prohibit it, rebus sic stantibus, therefore for ever? I aim to prohibit it, because as yet, neither the Discipline appears to be all Christ's, nor the Parishes fit matter for Churches; therefore I prohibit it for ever. Is this good reasoning? They that do over-desire the enjoying any thing, do measure time by eternity, and weeks by Ages, and take a little deferring for everlasting. Why is his Charets, saith Siferah's mother, so long in coming? 3. Because they reciprocate Interests, therefore is every Congregation to be left at liberty? Yea, at liberty in spirituals? and not as they will, but as the Gospel persuades the will. Yea, and because they reciprocate Interests, therefore to be left at liberty, say you. Rather, because they reciprocate Interests, to be cautious how they mingle and incorporate Interests too soon. And if any just liberty may arise to the people of God from such State-pauses, why not such a liberty? Should the Churches be ever persecuted, and have no rest? It was not so under the first Persecution, Then had the Church's rest. Because, say you disturbances are communicated, therefore settle the Ecclesiastical, that the civil may enjoy peace. But can you secure the Civil from the Ecclesiastical in peace? aught you to have a State-being, or a Church-being first? Is this good reasoning? Because disturbances are communicated, therefore order it so that the Civil may be within the Line of communication, or of Ecclesiastical disturbances, by clasping and incorporating them together. So as it follows better thus: Because they reciprocate Interests, therefore take heed how you establish, because the State cannot but establish a way something of its own, in the Ecclesiastical. To that of Henry the fourth's humanity which you press, because the Protestants helped him by arms; I answer: Let but the same humanity be copied out by the State here, and press for it here as you do there, and we are agreed. Surely you have the same and greater engagements. Your Brethren whom you call Schismeticks and Heretics, have not been sparing of Arms and Blood in the high places of the field, and in a Cause more glorious, with success more admirable, with courage as gallant: And sure they have been found as trusty friends to this State, as the Protestants to the State of France. You say, That State is rather free in indulgence, as the Bloody Tenet, then free from commotions, etc. For the freedom contended for by The bloody Tenet, when I undertake to prove his freedom at large, then put us together; till when, deal fairly. I could as easily draw something of yours under the Line of Prelacy; but I would not force any man's notions, much less yours. You see of what stamp the Liberty is I contend for. And for Commotions, let the world judge if all the broils and combustions kindled not from the Coals on the Alia, and from the flame of an Ecclesiastical. Interest, such as you contend for. For that of the Tares and Wheat, etc. where you charge us with mixture tolerated, or rather with plucking up Wheat from the Tares etc. in Church-gathering: I answer: We tolerate no mixture, but in the world where Christ himself tolerates, as in the same Pa●able; not in the Church. And for our plucking, it is not plucking, but gathering and calling out: Your words are of more violence than the Word will bear; that is, more properly plucking, which is a destructive pulling out a bloody Separation, a plucking of Persecution; such a plucking as some contend for, and would requite our gathering with plucking, and take us all not for a mixture of Tares and Wheat, but all for Tares. You say we gather out the Wheat; it is well you observe that we have Wheat amongst us, which some of your Brethren will searce allow us; and you very hardly. Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 29, 30▪ 31. His other politic consideration is this. Our Parties, or dissenting Brethren now together, and clasped by Interest, etc. I answer: 1. No clasping in the Camp must lose us to division in the City. 2. Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politic adviseth to repress factions, etc. 3. The delay hath occasioned a multiplication of Heresies and Schisms. 4. Many disposed to division, heighten their spirits to contumacy and contempt. To that other of his, it is possible while time is given, opinions may be sooner at peace; I answer: 1. Possibility is no pleae against probability, nay, clear experience, that by the brethren's amiable carriage, they have driven on their design with a politic activity, and gained more by their adversaries slowness, than the goodness of their cause. To that of his Fire let alone under wood, and so to die out, etc. I answer: 1. Will fire under dry wood quench itself, or the settling of a Government be as the Bellows? 2. The contrary is plain by examples of Anabaptists and other Sectaries in Germany, whom Luther at first mediated for with Frederick Duke of Saxony; but after he was glad to stir up the Princes and people of Germany for extinguishing a common combustion. To that of his, etc. The contentions of Brethren are like the Bars of a Caestle, Prov. 18. 19 I answer: 1. This is his seal to his politic Aphorisa●: But will the bars of a Caestle be taken by letting alone? We have not found it so in our wars, etc. Reply. To your first, That we must not clasp in the Camp, and divide in the city. You say well; we are to agree, or clasp both in Camp and City, and to divide in neither. To your second, Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politikes, I told you before, I dare not allow myself the privilege of an Aphorism of light then, when it was rather night than day with me as I told you. You know Paul's regenerate part or law of his mind, quarrelled with the law of his Members; so doth mine; so Luther, Augustine, etc. To that of delaying occasioning Heresies, Whether may not your settling things thus, be as great an Heresy as you complain against? Be sparing. You may call these Truths, which you now call Heresies; Paul preached that Doctrine after, which before he destroyed. To that of many heightening their spirits into contempt. Do not aggravate against your Brethren; remember your own professed ingenuity, in these words, I would not excite Authority to needless severity. To that of the brethren's politic advantage on your slow pace, and amicable carriage, as you say. Give not over your amicablenesse for that, their policy is no warrant against your duty; and if they be politic, blame them in print: For my part, I hate to see in any too much of man in the business of God; but if some of the Brethren be politic, what is that to the rest, who wait for the Spirit in the simplicity of their own? But it may be you mistake the advantages, and put their increasing upon brethren's policy, which is the power of the Gospel. You know in Christ's time many believed on him, and the people went after him; and yet not policy, but his power gathered them. To that of your fire and dry wood, and that your settling a Government would be no bellows. Who are the dry wood you mean? and what fire? and what by the bellows? I fit be this, that the settling a Government will quench our contentions; yea, and it may quench more than it ought, even something of the Spirit may be quenched by it: Persecution may put out many a Candle of the Lords lighting, and many a coal kindled from his Altar: But take heed there be not more fire in the bellows then in the wood. To that of the Anabaptists and Sectaries, quenched by Luther's mediation: I dare not believe your Historian, nor take all against them from the Pen of an enemy. He that takes the Parliaments battles from an Oxford Pen shall read nothing but Rebellion, rather than Religion, And me thinks I observe much here in your observation to the contrary: We may rather think that Germany is a field of blood to this day for shedding the blood of so many consciences for some points of difference. And for Luther's mediation against them; Look well, and tell me how much the Lutheran there have advanced in the Reformation: Have they not rather stood like Joshua's Sun, where he left them? Let England take warning by Germany. To that of the brethren's contentions, which are like bars of a Castle; and must not then be let alone (you say) as in our Wars: Yea go on, take these offended Brethren, these Castles, in your military way; but then, let your Warfare be spiritual, your weapons not carnal put on the armour of light, etc. and take them by a Gospel-siege, and we are satisfied. But it you take them with the power of the Magistrate, with swords and staves, as they took Christ; if you come in this Gospel-Controversie to to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities, by force of Arms and compulsive Artillery, as your instance seems to imply; take heed lest you shed more spiritual blood to that under the Altar, that never ceases to cry, How long, Lord, how long? Master Ley's Resolution, Page 32. To that he saith, We have not yet any experience of our new Clergy Answ. How can there be experience of them, if there be no government to try them withal? Reply. So as you will have an hazard run both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Ministers: but sure your Statists will tell you, it is not safe trying experiments with State; they are too vast bodies for that. What think you of that Physician that will cast his Patent into a disease, to try a cure on him? You know the old moral adagy, Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hospes: One is sooner kept out, then cast out. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 32. To that, It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands. Answer. He need not much fear, the government will be so qualified, so disposed for the persons that manage it, etc. Reply. These are fair promises. It is pity that government should ever be set up, that cannot tell before hand how well it will carry itself. Oh I saith Absalon, If I were a King, it should not be thus. But, what is a qualified Government that is not Christ's? I can never hope to gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles. Sure it can never be well for for the Trees of the Forest when the Bramble will reign. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 33. There are many of note who affirm the best way to suppress the multiplicity of Sects is to let them have scope, and they will run themselves out of breath; but I cannot give my Vote, false teachers are not to be tolerated, no, not for an hour, Gal. 2. 5. Reply. I would there were more such of that mind; I am sure it is safest and soundest. It is safest, there is no such danger in that of crucifying Christ in ignorance of fight against God. And soundest, for so they die out most naturally by their own unsoundness, without noise and commotion. Sometimes the cure makes the greater disease, when the cure is not natural but violent. For that of Paul's withstanding Peter to the face, I allow you all such Gospel-wayes of contention, so you only withstand them to the face, and do not as the Highpriest did command them to be smitten on the face. Oppose with words as Paul did, but not with swords, taking and turning the Edge of Authority against us. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 33. We experience, saith be. But where roads this Writer this phrase? Reply. You criticise on words; I cannot take time to do so; I wonder you (an Assembly-man) have leisure for that; this is logomac ice, or word-fighting: and why not We experience? You know our times have found out such ways of elegancy in the English, though I thought not any such thing when I wrote. But why do I trifle too? To your matter. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 33. But it appeareth by his, etc. Whether it be safe to commit the power, etc. That to commit any power, or establish any government, especially the Presbyterial, is too soon or suddenly done, if done at all. Reply. Yea, and it is not too suddenly if done at all, and not done as it ought, or in Christ's way: I am for any thing of Christ's, when, and where, and how soon you will. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 34. We may say as he; Some may be like the ten, yet others like the two Brethren. For two ambitious Presbyterians, there may be ten more modest. Reply. But how come you by such plenty of the better sort? It is not thought by most of your way; I am sure some of your way were taking care how to furnish their Presbytery. their 10000 Parishes. And this I know, that if there were such plenty, Why do you make shift with so many of the Episcopal stamp, who keep their Parishes, and resolve while they live, to try out all turns of government, rather than turn off a tithe of two hundred per annum? But I believe the English Presbytery and Prelacy are well agreed in that. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 34. Besides, the Presbyterial government is framed directly according to the Resolution of our Saviour. Reply. Not so directly neither: It is rather directly according to the prudential design of your Assembly, as you say: so as all yet is but So you say, and we say the contrary; there is You say, and We say, Authority not Scripture and evidence, carries it on your side; And let the Reader judge bet wixt us. Indeed you are able to prove by the Magistrate, that your Presbytery is some of it Christ's way: That is an Argument of power, not of Scripture. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 34, 35, 36. To that he saith, The Controversy is hottest about government, etc. It may be so without fault in those that are for it, but not without crime in those that oppose it. To that of his, Is it good parting with the stakes? The Question presupposeth evenness betwixt parties, whereas the difference is betwixt government and no government. The high Court of Parliament, and all the Orthodox Churches, etc. on the one side, and a small inconsiderable party on the other. Nor is it so much injury to resolve for government against them, as the Bishops, who had possession of Prelacy by a prescription legally etc. To that of his, It is to be feared there is too much of man: It is likewise to be in those who despise government etc. And if the Bias run most to this truth of government (as he saith) it is but as it should be. The Bishop's government being put down, it is necessary some other should be set up, and before all, the Presbyterial. And if (as he saith) some other truths are wholly set by, it may be the fault of those who set themselves too much against government, I am sure not in such as are for the Presbytery. And for his caution as he concludes with, I wish he had had more caution in his mind, and his paper; he had had few faults, and a shorter refutation would have served. Reply. You say, The Controversy may be hottest, yet no fault in those that are for it, but against it. But, is all the heat in those that oppose it? Nay sure: Witness the importunity, the petitioning of your party, etc. we silent all the time. You say, The difference is not so equal, but betwixt government and no government; Parliament and all Orthodox Divines against an inconsiderable party. Indeed it is unequal: It is betwixt a government of man of Prudence, as you confess, and a Scripture government; betwixt an huge national Government, and Christ's little flock, or Church. Nor is it a Controversy with the High Court of Parliament; we contend not with them, but humbly petition and represent the truth unto them: but this is the old way to wind in under the wing of Authority, and to engage them. But they are wise to discern, and not to be engaged as their Predecessors were by the Churchmen as they called them; there are too many sad stories. But what of our inconsiderable party? We had rather be a few with truth, than a multitude against it. And how inconsiderable soever we are in number, the stone cut out without hands may fill the earth: the Kingdom of Christ, and the worlds, are not so one as you would make them▪ Unus homo totius orbis impetum fustinuit; It was said of Euther; He was but one against a world. Your non-conformists were but inconsiderable to the Kingdom of Prelacy almost. A pebble in the band of David may do more than a mighty spear in the hand of Goliath. You say, The Bishops had a better prescription even by Law for their government than we. But how is this? Is a legal prescription better hold then a Gospel's prescription? Is it more privilege to be founded upon a Statute, or Act of Parliament than Scripture? You say, If too much of man be in this Controversy, it is in those that oppose and despise Government. But what is that to our Controversy? We are not of those that speak evil of dignities, or desp●se government, unless you count your Presbytery to be that government and dignity spoken on by the Spirit; and that remains to be proved: That which cannot be proved to be a Scripture-government, cannot challenge a Scripture-law to defend or secure it. You say, If the Bias run most towards government, it is but as it should be: Yea, if towards a Scripture-government; else it is as it should not be▪ and not as it should be. You say, The Bishops government's put down, some must be set up; and that is Presbytery. But there is one set up already, a civil Parliament arie government; and will you set up another above that? or cordinate with that? Will you set up one government to rule another? or tutor another? And must you needs set up as large a Dominion as the eiv●ll Power hath? Must our Presbytery be full as ample, as high, and supreme, as our Parliament? Will no less territory or Kingdom serve it but all England? Whole Nations? Must Christ's government be just as broad and long as the worlds? You find not the golden Read for the Temple of that length. Now Reader, judge, which government affects Dominion? Which brings in whole Nations under the Sceptre of it? Poor Scripture-government can be content to sit down in a Village; To the Church in thy house, saith the Spirit; In a City as Corinth, and over but a few there, the Saints only in fellowship; to the Church in Corinth: In a Country not over a Country: so the seven Churches in Asia, not to the Church of Asia, or the Church Asia, a Church taking in half part of the world. Sure if Christ would have had such a national compreliensive Church, he could have converted King▪ and Princes first, and they should have given up their Scepter● and Kingdoms to Jesus Christ, in the way of a Presbyterian: Nay▪ it ought to have been so; Jesus Christ was bound in the way of righteousness, to have be un the practice and modelly to us over whole Kingdoms, having not left it in precept in the whole Gospel; and we ought either to have had practice or precept to order and command us in what we obey. You say▪ If other Truths be set by, it is by those that so oppose Government, and not by the Presbyterial. I see the Presbytery must be in no fault: Happy men! that have nothing but Truth on their side. You wish I had more caution in my mind and paper, and ● shorter Refutation had served. Cautions are not amiss both for you and me; and I think you had need of more caution of the two, by how much more vast and national the Government is, you manage. You that put yokes upon whole Nations in a day, had need to have the cautions of a years provision laid in before hand. And for your Refutation of my paper; do not bear witness of yourself; let Truth judge bet wixt us, and let the Reader pray for a spirit of discerning to judge both what is Truth and which is Truth; that which you, or I, affirm. Nor will I say I have made here a Refutation of yours. If I have done well, What have I that I have not received? And if I have not, the Lord enlighten and enable me to refute myself. Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 36, 37, 38. To that of his, that the material Temple was more clearly left and known then the Gospel's pattern, etc. Answer: 1. He would not be thought to side with Sanballat and Tobijah, and so endeavours to show some considerable difference. 2. If it be●to● soon now for the Government, will he set a time for it when it will be seasonable? or will he have it stay till it be a matter all building, or till we have inspired Prophets? 3. It cannot be of too quick dispatch, if we set it up by the dictates of the Holy Ghost in the New Testament; nor the determination sudden, if after consideration with Scriptures, with the best Divines, and collation of the exactest patterns, after long debates in the Assembly of Divines, where the dissenting and liberty to object; and lastly received by Parliament. 4. By the builders, special regard hath been had to Jesus Christ for Foundation etc. And now by Master Saltmarsh his consent the work may go on, etc. Reply. You say, I would not seem to side with Sanballat and Tobljah. You say true, I would not. But every building is not Temple-work. And though I would not with knowledge hinder the Temple of the living God, yet if another kind of frame were in building, I would do my best to hinder and be no Sanballat neither. But they are Sanballats, not whom man, but whom the Lord counts so. But surely they hinder more, that set up another kind of Temple then Christ's, than he that advises to look well that all be right and Temple-worke that is set up. To the difference I made of the material and Gospell-paterns, you say nothing; and that is the only considerable. It may be as you said by me, you are best able to deal with the other. You say, I should set a time then for the setting it up. Yea, I shall set you a time, yet not in mine own authority but Christ's: When your Pattern is all Gospel, and your people all qualified in that Gospellpatern, then is my time for setting up, and then is Christ's time too. Nor would I stay you for a material building, as you say. You know I call you on to the Gospel▪ I am very far from turning you back to the Law; I call you on to Christ; I would not turn you back to Solomon. And for the inspired Prophets you tell me I stay for, and would have you stay too: Is not that a very gospel-way to stay for the Spirit's coming into the servants of the Lord? Take heed of denying inspired Disciples. You know it is part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecy, Acts 2. Indeed some of the Prelates, many of them being uninspired themselves, and having little of the Spirit, or none, would needs say therefore, All inspirations and Spiritual enlightenings, etc. were ended in the Church, because ended in them: and because they were so carnal themselves, they thought none was Spiritual. And you remember how they made Laws even against the Spirit in Prayer. I speak thus, only to remember you who spoke most against inspiration and the Spirit, lest you may let fall some words which may be taken up by some of that way, to countenance them in their Invectives. Not but that I esteem of you as one inspired yourself in a measure, and having the Spirit of God in you; therefore I know the Spirit will be very tender in opposing the Spirit. You say, you ought to dispatch the Government, because you have followed the dictates of the Holy Ghost, of the Assembly, and Parliament. Then let me put one Question; Why is it not called Christ's Government? Why hath it not a Jus divinum, a Divine Right put upon it, if all be of the Holy Ghost in it? But I would not mistake you; you say only that all is by the dictate of the Holy Ghost, of the Assembly and Parliament. So it is but part then, by your own confession, of the Holy Ghost; the rest is of the Assembly and Parliament. You say, The builders have had special regard to Jesus Christ the Foundation. I will not suspect the Counsels and Debates of any of the builders. I know the Disciples of Christ were true Disciples, though they had not all of the Spirit at one time which they had at another; I hope and I pray, that the Lord will make up to the builders what of the Spirit he hath not given them▪ that they may both see to build right, and see where they have builded wrong; and so pull down again, as well as set up. And whereas you say, The building may go on▪ by Master Saltmarsh his own consent: I say, your building will go on it seems, whether Master Saltmarsh consent or no. Master Ley, in his capacity, is better able to put it on at this time then Master Saltmarsh is to put it off to another time, unless the Lord who is above all, and hath the mighty, even the Princes of the earth to command, work for his own glory above all that we can or think. Master Ley's Resolution, pag. 38, 39, 40. To the second Objection and Answer of Heresies and Schisms, and so they might have done from John's first Sermon, he saith, 1. Why doth he begin with john's first Sermon.▪ Were not the Esseans, etc. Heretics and Schisma icks? See Epiphanius, etc. 2. He makes Paul's Epistles the terminus ad quem which from John's first Sermon to the last, make up Twenty nine years. After the Epistles, he brings in the sending the Spirit, etc. which was but five years after the first Sermon of John Baptist. 3. Before the end of the Epistles, that Government was not which we find in Scripture; and if so, the Church-Government was not long suspended. 4. Nor would it prejudice our expedition: People of that Age could not be so easily gathered as with us they may be. 5. What was long in establishing in Primitive times, cannot be said to be hastily done now, after so many discussions and deliberate resolutions. Reply. You say first, Why begin I for Heretics and Schismatics from John's first Sermon? I begin there, because there began the mystery of the Gospel. And yet I show you that no Government began with that Gospel's manifestation▪ by which I made appear, that if Government had been of such moral necessity, why was it not given out with the Gospel's first giving out. Now you prove in a chronological discourse the space of time from John's Sermon to Paul's Epistle, to make the time appear for Government. And, after you have summed up all the time and periods, and find it no two or three year's work, you conclude People of that age could not be so easily gathered as now: Nor the long establishing then to be an hasty establishing now. And now, after all this discourse and ravellings out of time from John's Sermon, etc. What have you gained? Not that the Government was soon settled. Then you have proved (much to my advantage, and in a clearer and fuller computation than I did) the contrary. So as you have only been taking some learned pains, if you well observe, and the Reader well observe you, to prove that the Government at first was not suddenly cast into model, nor brought forth in practice, which is the very thing I aimed at; and truly your pains in it have been more exact than mine; and I thank you for it. But you say, It ought not to be so now; nor can it be said to be hastily done now, that was done so long ago. You say true in that: But you know the same Spirit must reveal it that form it; and it form it at first by degrees: and the way of Revelation hath been more year's then the first farming; reckon but your Antichristian years as exactly as you have done your first Christian and Primitive years, and you may be more satisfied▪ So as all, both the first Revelation of it from Prophecies, and the latter from Antichristianism, makes all for the not hastening, which I aimed at. Indeed, if you can as infallibly assure us this form and model is the very form then given out, it were very true that you say, That it cannot be said to be hastily done now, what was done so long ago: viz. If it be that very one which was done so long ago. For your exception against me concerning my placing the giving of the Spirit so late, if you interpret sense by the strict order of words, you will lose many a Scripture truth in the words, as you well know. Master Ley's Resolution, Page 40, & 41. To that of Heresies, etc. he saith; What if they do not stir up their Patrons against the State, etc. but they busily poison the souls of the people; and shall they (if as Paul Best) be suffered to blaspheme and reproach, and perturb the public Peace? An Indulgence much like old Elies, etc. If Truth be not more precious than Peace, why doth our Saviour say, He came not to send pe●ce? And why do the Fathers contend so against the Arrians about a letter? And why we so with the Romish Religion rather than be at peace with them? For that of moral transgressions, he would have the Magistrates set on. Set on? By whom? We have not such mean thoughts of the Magistrate as to make mention of him in such terms of disparagement. And for all his Disciplines regulating men for religious walking, there will be work enough for the Magistrate to bring them under civil trial for contumacy, etc. Reply. You say, What? If heresies stir not up, they poison souls. If they poison, let the Gospel-antidote be applied then and no other way which the Gospel will not bear no● allow; there is the sword of the Spirit, and weapons not carnal, but mighty and spiritual. For that of old Elies' indulgences which you speak on you are still looking upon Moses, though you tell us of Christ. Make the Kingdom of Israel and of England the same; a jewish and Christian State the same; and then we shall allow you both Elies sin, and his son's maintenance by tithes & offerings. You say, Truth is more precious than peace; yet there is a peace precious as well as Truth, even the Peace of Christ, as well as the Truth of Christ. But to the business; You would prove Truth to be precious, to the disadvantage of Peace; and therefore you bring in the Fathers against the Arrians, and us against the Papists, and Christ against Peace: But what would you prove? Would you prove that truth ought to be established against peace, and peace to be no way to truth? Surely truth and peace do meet together; nay, they are so much one, as there is even a truth in peace. He that was Truth itself could say, My Peace I leave with you. But, What of the contention spoken on of the Fathers and ●●, etc. If there be any quarrelling for Truth either by the Fathers or us; but in a Gospel-way, we are not excusable▪ neither doth Christ speak of truths drawing swords, but of swords drawn against truth; which is no Argument for you. When Peter would draw a sword in the defence of truth, Christ bid him put it up. So far is he against your way of defending truth. You say, By whom should Magistrates be set on, and that you cannot speak in such disparaging words? By whom be set on? By the legislative power, by the Parliament▪ The Parliament can set on their respective Committees, justices▪ etc. and is this any disparagement? I speak of subordinate Magistrates, not of the supreme. You say, There will be work for the Magistrate enough, to punish the contumacious▪ etc. That is in English, the Presbytery will keep the Magistracy doing: and now who disparages the Magistrate? Who set them on work? Who makes them their Deputy-punishers? Nay, Who is the Satan to whom the excommunicate are delivered? It is an expression not much besides your principles: and who disparages the Magistrate in that? Master Ley's Resolution, Page 41, & 42. To that of Truth, being otherwise armed from Heaven; I answer: We think it not meet to divide the subservient means from the supreme power, nor the exercise of Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectual, the sword of God and Gideon. To that of the imputation of jealousy, etc. There is a godly jealousy, which would set up as many securities as may be against Heresy and impiety. The faulty jealousy is theirs that would stifle the Government: but there is a fear which we profess of God's anger for connivance and communion with heretical men, etc. There is in some an averseness to Heresy in a trne zeal and love of God. There be many other causes of jealousy, but I will take but that one of the Lords and Commons, p. 43. If Master Saltmarsh ●ad well considered who were engaged, etc. he would not have undervalved their piety and prudence, to compare them with Papists and Prelates. I will conclude with a piece of his own politic advice, etc. Upon such principles is Church-Government ordained; for his Text out of the Revelation, Rev. 18. 1. As he began, so he ends with mis-application of Scripture. Reply. You say you cannot divide Discipline from his assistance, who can make it effectual. That is, from the Magistrates. This is a sign without further Argument, that you do not hold your government for Christ's, because it cannot be effectual of itself, without help from below, and the world, and to another power then its own; nor is the sword of God, and Gideon any fair and just proof for joining Presbytery and Magistracy; it joins only God and the Magistrates. You say, Your godly jealousy will set up as many securities as may be. But then they are warrantable and Gospel-wayes of security. That is no godly jealousy which sets up other ways; as Herod killing all the children to secure his Kingdom; David dissembling to escape; jacob to get a blessing: there is jealousy, but no godly jealousy nor warrantable security: So to secure any way, though of truth, by a power not allowed on in the Gospel, as no such compulsive power is in your way, is not to be jealous with a godly jealousy; though I deny not but some of those may be godly who are so jealous, but not in that. You say, that some fear▪ Gods anger for their communion with Heretics, etc. You know all such fear is only warrantable in the Church not in the world: It is not so with the Nations now as with the jews. Now if we have not communion with them in the Nation, we must go out of the world. But, What communion is this you mean that will bring God's anger? You have your liberty to withdraw, to separate as they from you: If it be national or civil communion, than you pluck up the tares before the time of harvest. But whom you esteem Heretics, they it may be think they have as good Scriptures to esteem you so; and this is Heretic for Heretics, interpretation against interpretation. And since there is only a sufficiency, but no infallibility now as before; since there is no Apostles for interpretation as at first, for Revelation, why do we thus cry out, Heretics, Heretics; the Sword, the Sword? Let me put one Question here. Suppose those you call Heretics were of equal number to you, and both of you equally numbered with Magistrates, and both of you equally principled for persecution and both equally calling out for the Magistrates Sword; What clashing of swords would there be! What edge against edge! What authority against authority! What power against power! What bloody doings! What sad workings! What confusion would there be! This is an Image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kind. If we were equally principled and armed for persecution as you are, and acted by your spirit; Ah, what a Kingdom would here be! You say, Some have averseness to Heresy in a true zeal to God. These are but general notions of Heresy. Every thing is not Heresy that is called so. And for true zeal to God in that averseness all this is granted, if that be Heresy indeed. But how if it be such a zeal as Paul saith the ●ewes had, a zeal, but not according to knowledge? how if it be such a zeal to God as crucified the Son of God? and such a zeal there hath been, we know. The jews did much in zeal to Truth, even against Truth. But you close up with that of the Lords and Commons in an Ordinance, etc. I am afraid these are such proofs as you intent most in your Presbytery, to make your supplement to Scripture from Authority, and so to make us believe what you cannot persuade us to believe, and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture. But I hope that honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture against us then from their Authority. But I have not to do here with answering Ordinances of Parliament. I contend not, but submit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords sake; nor doth my Argument lie against any thing of theirs, but yours. I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties, but judges in out difference. I appeal to the Parliament, as to Caesar: nor in it a fair proof of Truth, to draw the Magistrates Sword out of the Scabbard. You say, You wonder, considering who was engaged, I would so undervalue them to compare them with Papists and Prelates. I did consider who was engaged, a Parliament, etc. and had I not highly valued them, I had not ventured so far in my Quaere. I considered the sad and feral troubles which attended the Magistrates engagements with the Ministers; the blood which hath been poured out by national compulsion of tender consciences; and like a spiritual Watchman, I could not but blow my Trumpet, and give warning. And for my comparison or Papists and Prelates, I appeal to the world if there be any reproach; whether it be not in the Interpreter, rather than in the Author. But I know no such thing by my Paper: And if it be lawful to draw in consequent conclusions▪ and then father them, I could prove you to speak Treason, Blasphemy, Idolatry, Atheism, Heresy, nay, Independency, which some of your Way think worse▪ Anabaptism, Separation, which would seem to be as hateful to you: But I judge you not in any such sort; nor had I spoken so far now, but in a just Vindication. You say, You will conclude with my Politics; and upon such Principles as mine, Church-government is ordained. I have told you my Politics were written by my dimmer light. And if your Government be built upon no better Principles than mine, I cannot but be out of conceit with that Government, being so far out of conceit with mine own Principles; and it makes me think the worse of it, because my former Principles fit it so well. Those Principles you speak on are partly of C●vill power and the Sword; and the Dominion or Sceptre in the Gospel, is more Spiritual. You say of my Text in the Revelation, Revel. 18▪ 1. that as I began, so I end, with misapplication of Scripture. Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved; and my reasons were rather crowded then ordered in my Paper. The Scripture was this: For the Angel that came down from Heaven hath great power, and the earth is lightened with his glory. Which Scripture there applied, doth hint to any that will not rather cavil then interpret, that my only reason for delay of Government was in this: An Angel was yet to come with power and glory; or, the Gospel would fill the earth with more light; ●o as we should not shut up ourselves too soon in the dark. And now Reader, judge whether it be my mis-application, or his misinterpretation. Spiritual Principles drawn forth. gospel-truth is one and the same. THat which is only in some parts of it warrantable by the Word, is not purely, nor in a Scripture-way warrantable: For there is not any Will-worship, but it hath something from the Pattern of the true. The Samaritan-worship was copied after the Jewish; and the Jewish, when Christ came, had Priests, and Temple, and Sacrifices, and was copied by the Law: But then there was Traditions and Commandments of men. That is pure Gentilism, which hath no Image of Gospel nor legal Truth. Antichrist sits in the very Temple of God, though rather upon it. False Christ's call themselves Christ's as well as the true. The great Image had a head of Gold, though feet of Iron and Day. Every Heresy hath a Scripture Word in it. But Truth must be all one and the same and Homogeneal; not in parts so, but all so. There is but one Lord, one Faith, etc. Prudence and Consequences, are the great Engines of Will-worship. THings of Prudence merely, are not to be admitted into the Spirituallway and Gospell-designe. Prelacy had its Prudence for every new additional in Worship and Government. And once let Prudence open a door, and then will more of man crowd in, than the 〈…〉 of God can keep out. Nor is that to be admitted, which is so received a Maxim, Though not directly, yet not repugnant to the Word. Christ's rule is not such▪ he opposes any Tradition to the Commandments of God. Not direct from Scripture▪ is indirect and repugnant, though not to the very letter of such words, yet to the form and Analogy of truth to the general Scripture-Law, viz. the will of God, that nothing shall be added or diminished; & ye are only my friends, saith Christ, if ye do what I command you; and the Lord will raise you up a Prophet, him shall ye hear. For if any thing of Prudence is to be let in, than something of Tradition; for Prudence can make nothing higher, no● purer, nor better; m●n can but give his own Image to the things ●e makes himself: though he make them up of divine materials from Scriptures▪ yet the form none but the Lord himself can give; and the form is that which stamps Christ's Image upon every Truth. Every thing in the Word hath a form; that is, it is ●uch a thing of truth, and not another. Nothing but God's power and will can make a thing Truth: his power creates it, and his will creates it such a Truth. Nothing is agreeable to the Will of Christ▪ but the very Will of Christ. The Will of Christ is the only Legislative power in the Gospel. Nothing is agreeable to his Will but what he wils; & every thing is repugnant to his will but what he wils: so as this will is the supreme general law, & indeed the very form or essence of Scripture & the Word of God. And whatsoever is devised by Prudence, though upon Scripture-materials, yet being not the work of this will, nor having the Stamp or Image upon it, is none of Christ's, but as repugnant as any other Tradition or invention of men. And here let us look to that new, though old design against Truth, the most subtle, undiscernible, and divinest kind of Will-worship in the world, that which some call Scripture-consequence, an unwholesome word as it hath been used: for under colour of consequence what Conclusions may be promoted! What may not Reason draw from Scripture, and what may it not fashion like a Truth? But consider, in Parliament Laws, or Ordinances, or Commissions, is it lawful to take them and from every part of them to draw out results of our own? and when there is but one Law, make many subordinate Laws of our own; and frame Laws out of Laws, and Ordinances out of Ordinances, and Commissions out of Commissions? No sure: But we must keep to that one, general, entire, literal Law and Will of the Parliament. Is it thus in Laws humane, and not much more in Ordinances divine? Yea, there is the same oneness, entireness, indivisibility, and essentiality of the Truth. Nor do I here disapprove any Scripture-consequence, if merely consequent and not form up into a Law by mere reason; for then m●n makes Laws from the Laws of God; and this is not the least engine that Antichrist hath wrought with. The people are Brethren and Saints in Christ's Church; but in Antichrists, Parishioners and Servants. What kind of Government is marked out in Scriptures for sitting on the waters, or people? Christ governs by the people ministerially, not over the people authoritatively only; and the people being once in his Churchway, lose their old capacity for a new, and are raised up from people to Brethren, to Churches. It is a saying of Master Goodwyns, and Master Nye, not so pleasant as true. The Clergy had at first the golden ball of government amongst themselves▪ and it is not much mended any where, but in that Church where the people have their Interests as well as others; they are the Clergy properly, a notion which the Ministers got only to themselves till of late: The interest of the people in Christ's Kingdom is not only an interest of complyancy▪ and obedience, and submission; but of consultation of debating▪ counselling, prophesying voting, etc. and let us stand fast in that liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. Presbytery itself is founded on Principles of separation, which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churches; nay, is the greatest separation. What is a Presbytery over Congregations or a Congregation, but a Church gathered out of a Church? Nay, is not that the only Church; and the remainder of people made but an accessary, or something of another kind▪ or rather the Nation or Kingdom which is only subject to this power supreme? And though Presbytery be but a Church-gathering, and founded on a Principle of separation, yet do they not disapprove, and condemn separation, and semi or halfe-seperation and Church-gathering for Schism, & c? When their own power is a Schism respectively to the Parishes that are distinct; and whatever distinction is form to make them appear as part of their Congregations, yet is it indeed so. Is not their whole power defended to be entirely, essentially, dispensatively in the Presbytery called by themselves the Church, and by the very authority of one whom I name with reverence to his learning and moderation, Master Herle? So as I wonder why there should be such envyings, raylings, accuse▪ dissentings betwixt us that are believers, though of several ways, when as each is principled, founded, administered upon the same ground and way of Schism, separation, and Church-gathering; nay, the Presbytery hath more Schism and separation in it then the rest, by how much it is constituted from the people and Brethren, and Acts in its ministration apart too, viz. over the people, rather than with them. None to be forced under Christ's Kingdom, as in the Kingdoms of the world. IN a Spiritual Government the ignorance of people which some would have for expedition, that they may practically know it, is no Scripture way of knowing: in practical godliness, things must be known before practically known; and practice is to begin from faith, and faith from knowledge; else the obedience can be but blind, mixed, and Popish. Indeed in things civil or moral, practice may bring in knowledge, habits may be acquired and gotten by Acts; a man may grow temperate by practising temperance, and civilly obedient by practising civil obedience; but it is not so in spirituals there, habits go before acts, spiritual infusions before practices. Indeed the Laws of States and Kingdoms and Civil Policy, teach men best by ruling them practically; but it is not so in the Church, men are not to be forced into Christ's Kingdom as into the Kingdoms of the world; the Kings of the Nations exercise their Dominion; it shall not be so among you. The power of a formal Reformation in a Government makes it not Christ's Government, A Government; though not purely Christ's, may be made up of such Scripture and prudential materials as may much reform the outward man, even as a mere prudential civil-government may do, if severely executed. The Romans by how much they excelled other Nations in Laws, so much the more they excelled them in a people reform, moralised, and civilised▪ in many Civil States, merely from their wholesome Policy and administration, excellent and precious flowers spring up, many moral virtues, as prudence, temperance, obedience, meekness, love, justice, fortitude: Yet all this makes not a Government to be Christ's; but only that which is merely the Discipline of Christ, and Policy of Christ. Prelacy in its Primitive time did reform; the beast like a lamb, which compelled the Nations to Worship, and made even fire to come down from Heaven, or was religious in the eyes of men, and did miracles; yet was no true nor heavenly Power neither. There are certain parts and degrees of Reformation common and communicable with the Government of Christ and other Governments; but then, there is a form and Image of Christ in it which no others have, and some certain spiritual operations and workings which exceed the power of all other Governments; and this makes the difference and puts on the essential, true, and individual form upon it; so as in choice of Governments they are not to be chosen by some Summer- fruit in the outward man, but by the Word and Spirit. The visible Church or Communion, is the Image of the invisible or mystical. THe invisible or mystical Church is made up of pure living stones; all is spiritual and yet all not spiritual in the like kind, nor degree; Jesus Christ the corner stone is both God and man; and some of his differ in glory as one Star differs from another▪ and as it is here, in this spiritual, invisible, glorious building▪ so it is in the outward, visible Communion below, or building here, which is the Image of that above: The Temple here is according to the Pattern there; and as that is of true, real, essentially spiritual living stones; so the Church here is to consist of such as visibly formally, and outwardly appear so; and therefore called Saints, and golden Candlesticks, and holy Natio, etc. And though all the materials in this building are to be proportionable, and pure, to make up a representative of the Church above; yet all is not of one square, and measure, and polishing: some are greater and some less; some Babes and children in Christ; some smoking Flax, and bruised Reeds: And as this Church bears the Image of the heavenly▪ so the mate●●●ll one bore the Image of this: there was p●ne stones, gold, and Cedar; so as there is room in the Church now for any small stone or the least piece of timber, if it be but lively or squared, if Cedar or Firr●. How Christ is a King of the Nations, and of the Church, and how an Head. CHrist is a King to the Nations and to the Church; nor doth he rule the Nations as the Church, nor the Church as the Nations; he rules ministerially in his Church and Monarchically in the Nations; he rules with a gold●n Sceptre in his Church with an iron Rod in the Nations: Nor doth Christ rule as the Kings of the Nations, who finding people rude, barbarous, uncivil, subdue them into obedience and civility; but so doth not Christ in his Church, that we know on; the dispensation of his Word (not of the Government) first ●ubdues. And it is true▪ Christ is an Head, but not an Head to every body; he will have a body proportionable to his Head both here and hereafter, in earth as well as in heaven; he is a pure, holy, glorious Head in his Gospel-dispensation, and will have a body suitable pure. Not only is the visible body of Christ thus pure, but every truth of Christ bears the Image of Christ; every truth of his hath something of himself in it who is Truth itself; I am the Truth saith Christ; every beam of light is light; every truth is a sparkle of truth itself. Thus we may judge of truth by what of Christ we see in it. They who break a Crystal, may see their face in every pe●●e and parcel: so in every thing of Christ there is an Image of Christ, either of his purity, or holiness, or love, or humility▪ or meekness▪ etc. The Presbyterial Government, and the Worlds, of the same equal Dominion. What kind of Church-government is that, which will set up itself with the Civil and State-government, even coordinate with it, if not to the ruling and tutor of it? which hath as large a Dominion as the other? which is as full, as ample, as high, and as supreme? which no less territory than a Kingdom will serve, than a whole Nation? Mu●● Christ's Government be just as large as the worlds, which Government affects Dominion? which brings in whole Nations under the Sceptre of it? This, or that little one in the Scripture, which sits down sometimes in a house, to the Church in thy house; sometimes in a City as Corinth, and over a few there, to the Church in Corinth, in a Country, not over a Country; to the seven Churches in Asia, not to the Church of Asia, or the Church Asia, a Church a fourth part of the world. Sure if this national and comprehensive Church were the pattern we should walk by, Why did not Christ begin first at Kings and Princes, and so bring Nations and Kingdoms, and make Churches of them? But we see no such thing, he begins lower, at the base and weak, and foolish, and few; and raises up his Kingdom from the bottom of the world, and not from the top or pinnacle of Princes, Kingdoms, and Nations. The national, and congregational Church-covenant, both lawful, or both unlawful. HOw can a Church-covenant be unlawful, if the Nationall-covenant be warrantable? and why do any plead against that, who are for this? A Covenant is condemned in the congregational Church, and yet commended in the national. Now, How can a Church-covenant be both true and false? Is a great Church-covenant lawful, and a little one unlawful? a national Church-covenant warrantable▪ and a congregational unwarrantable? But Covenants in their nature were a dispensation more of the Ol● Testament▪ strain; a national Church had a Covenant to gather them up into their national way of worship, and were under the Laws of an external Pedagog●●; and now the spiritual dispensation being come, even the Gospel of jesus Christ, there is a fullness of spirit let out upon the Saints and people of God, which gather them up more closely, spiritually, and cordally, than the power of any former dispensation could: the very Covenant of God himself, of which the former were typical and Prophetical, comes in nakedly upon the spirits of his, and draws them in, and is a law upon their inward parts, sweetly compelling in the consciences with power, and yet not with force; with compulsion, and yet with consent; and surely where this Covenant of God hath its kindly and spiritual operation, there would need no such external supplement as before; but because of the hardness of our hearts, it is thus, from the beginning it was not so; the spirit tied up thousands together then. Let States then have any prudential security, any design of sound wisdom, to consora●e people together; but let the Church only be gathered up by a Law of a more glorious and transcendent nature, by the pure Covenant of God himself, with the souls of his. We receive and give out Truth by parts. MEn are to be judged and followed according to the degrees of light they receive; and if any have some light, that light is not to be used as an advantage to all their other darkness, as if all their darkness might pass under that one beam of light. The light rises upon the Prophets, as the Sun upon the Earth; it is dawning and morning, and noon with them. Thus came the Gospel; john preached Repentance, jesus Christ Faith and Repentance; john came with Water, Christ with the Spirit, and first in Parables, and after in power: the Apostles they knew first Christ for Messiah; then, that he should suffer and die, and rise again, and then the Kingdom of God. Luther knew first that Indulgences were unwarrantable; and after, that Popery was Antichristianism, and Rome was Babylon, and works could not justify; and after, conscience was not to be compelled in spirituals. Thus we grow from Faith to Faith, to the fullness of stature in Christ, to a perfect man in him, growing with the increasings of God: The Kingdom of God is like a little leven, like a grain of mustard seed. So as while we see but things in degrees, we are neither to be too suddenly admired by others, nor our selves. All Covenanters are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State. Whosoever hath Covenanted, is bound to assist the Public to his utmost in every Condition, and Calling and Place, and Way accordingly, from natural abilities to his relations, from one relation to another, even to all▪ to that of Christian and Spiritual; his Prayers, Counsel, Notions, with Countributions of all sorts▪ Civil, Natural, Temporal, Spiritual▪ He is bound by Covenant to discover malignity in State, in Church; enemies to God as well as man; endeavours to any thing of Popery and Prelacy, under what visage, habit, form of Words, of Doctrine, Discipline, be it Presbytery, or whatever, if repugnant to the Word of God, as we are persuaded in conscience who have personally Covenanted. The breathe and speakings of the Spirit, are not to be quenched: Every season is for the Lords service; in season and out of season: Watchman, watchman, what of the night? The Spirit is poured upon sons and daughters. Synods of men are not infallible: Not because more men, more of the Spirit. The liberty of the subject is that of soul as well as body; and that of soul more dear▪ precious, glorious, The liberty wherein Christ hath made us free. Be not ye then the servants of men in the things of God. We are to try Truth, and so receive it in its Degrees. Inquiries for Truth ought to be according to Scripture-rule; and that rule lights us on to the trial of all things, and proving spirits, and judging between the precious and the vile. The water that is mingled with the wien, the Tares with the Wheat, will require sound trial, lest we make but an exchange of one Error for another. The Apostles waited for the Spirit, the Bereans searched the Word: we are bidden to try and prove. The Prophecies of seducers, false Christ's, Antichrist, with lying wonders, are as real cautions given out by the Spirit. The examples of former Ages, Luther, etc. were enlightened by degrees. Angels, who see by vision, see but as God reveals; much less men who take in Truths by spiritual reasoning, as well as revelation. Arise, why tarriest thou, is a Text only for him who had such a Vision as Paul to obey by; and such a Vision as Ananias had to Preach by. No Churchway INDEPENDENCY. THe Believers for the Churchway falsely called Independents, they hold on Christ for a spiritual Head, on the Magistrate for their civil Head, on the Body of Christ above and below in the communion of Saints here: their Dependency is spiritual, Ministerial, communicative; not Classical, Provincial, national: Their power is for one another, not over one another. They cannot mingle or embody with those in a Way not of Truth. Their separation is not from men but manners; not from believers themselves, but their practices and corruptions. Nor go they out but they are called out: Come out of her, my people▪ etc. And thus the Jews were Independent to the Nations, the Christians to the Jews, the Reformed to the Papists, the Non-conformists to the Prelatical, and these to the Non-conformists. A spirit of Love and Meekness becomes Believers. THey that write not as enemies, are likely to prove better friends to the Truth, because they raise not so much dust with their striving as others, to blind one another's sight. Those spirits which cast men sometimes into the fire, sometimes into the water, are not from Christ; it were happy the Lord would cast out those, and let a more Gospell-spirit walk amongst us; we might then sooner attain to that of the Apostle, To walk by the same rule so far as we have attained together, till the Lord reveal and the stronger to bear with the weak; and to please one another to edification, rather than ourselves, in all things wherein the Lord may not be displeased in the way of his dispensation. I know no advantages we have got, but the reviling ourselves before our enemies as well as one another. And oh! why do we tell it Gath, and publish it in the streets of Askalon, to make the uncircumcised triumph? Was the Lord in the wind, or in the fire, or in the still small voice, when he spoke to the Prophet? only in the still voice. How was the Lord heard in the time of his Indignation? Man heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. Oh! could we find out the coolest times to speak and write one to another in, and not in the heat of the day, as we do. When a State-conscience is fully persuaded; doubtful, and so sinning. IT is with a Public or State-conscience, as it is a personal or particular conscience: What is done, must be done in Faith, or else there is weakness, doubting, and sin. Now where there is not a full consent and persuasion from the Word of faith, there cannot be faith properly, and where there is not a Word of faith for that Conscience to be grounded upon, there cannot be a purely and spiritually full persuasion. And one may question whether in spirituals, as in Civils, Votes and Voices are to make Laws; for in the Gospel we find that Divine Laws have their subsistence there, without the Vote of any: and that is only to be a Law or Truth in the Church and Kingdom of Saints, not what is so in the common consent or voice, but what is a Law in the very gospel-truth of it. If the Laws of truth were founded as the Laws of Civill-States▪ in a mere Legislative power; then Popery hath had as good assurance as any; they have had most v●ces, most Counsels: and so Arrian●sm, when the world went after it. Postscript. The Testimony of Salmasius, the approved Germane writer of the Presbyterial way and employed by the States of Holland to write. THat the Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is not that way of Baptism practised by the Apostles. The Baptism of Apostolical use and institution▪ is in the Rivers not with invocation of the three Persons, seeing the Apostles Baptised only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. In his own Latin thus. Baptisma in aquis perennibus Apostolici instituti & moris sed non invocatio Trinitatis super Baptizatum, cum Apostli in solo nomine jesu Baptizarent. Salmasius in apparatu ad libros de primatu papae, fol. 193. Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall-way. DUobus modis ha● Independentia ecclesiarum accipi potest, si vel respectum non habeant ad vicinas ullas ecclesias, aut si non pendeant ab authoritate aliquot Ecclesiarum simul in unam Classem vel Synodum conjunctarum cujus conventus partem & ipsae faciant. Prior modus similior reperitur primitivae ecclesiae praxi, consue●udini ac usui, quo voluntaria haec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 et communio inter ecclesias fuit: Posterior magis convenit eum instituto quod postea juris humani dispositione introductum est. Hoc posteriore modo l●ber●as particularium ecclesiarium magis immmuta videtur quam priore. Sed quod ab initio fuerit voluntatis, postea factum est juris. Et hoc jus sane▪ positivum, atque ecclesiasticum humanumque▪ non divinum The begin●● of his Post-boy p● witnesses to page ●3. Exception 4. juris est quidem divini, ut una si● ecclesia christi, unitas autem ejus non gregalium aut concorporal●um plurium adunata collectione consistat, sed in fidei ac doctrin● unanimi consensione. Pag. 265, 266▪ in apparatu. In English thus: THis Independency of Churches may be taken two ways; Either as not having respect to any neighbour Churches, or as not depending on the authority of ●ome Churches that are joined in some Classis or Synod, of which the Churches themselves may make a pa●t▪ The former way is found to be more like the practice, custom, and use of the Primitive Church, whereby this voluntary communion was among th● Churches. The latter way doth more agree with the institution which afterwards was introduced by a humane authority. By this latter way the liberty of particular Churches seem to be l●sse diminished then by the former. But that which from the beginning was arbitrary afterwards is made necessary [as a Law.] This Law truly is positive and ecclesiastical a●d humane, not divine. 'Tis ●y a divine Law that the Church of Christ should be one, but the unity of it doth not consist in the union [o● collection] of many that are of the ●ame flock or body, but in the unanimous consent agreement in faith and doctrine. Page 65 66. in apparatu. FINIS. THese Groans for Liberty, out of Smectymnuus his own mouth, I approve to be printed. Feb. 27. 1645. JOHN BACHILER. If any are ignorant who this Smectymnuus is, Stephen Martial Edmund Calamy Thomas Young can tell you. Matthew Newcomen William Spurstow GROANS FOR LIBERTY. PSESENTED From the Presbyterian (formerly Nonconforming) Brethren; reputed the ablest and most learned among them, in some Treatises called Smectymnuus, to the high & Honourable Court of Parliament, in the year 1641, by reason of the Prelate's Tyranny. Now awakened and presented to themselves in the behalf of their Nonconforming Brethren. WITH A BEAM of LIGHT, discovering a way to Peace. ALSO, SOME QUAERES For the better understanding of Mr. Edward's last Book called GANGRENA. With a PARALLEL between the PRELACY and PRESBYTERY. By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher of the Gospel. Mat. 18. 32, 33. I forgave thee all that debt because thou desiredst me; Shouldst no thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the black spread-Eagle at the West end of Paul's, 1646. TO THE HONOURABLE, THE Knights, Citizens, & Burgesses of the House of COMMONS In PARLIAMENT. Honourable, I Here present you with some Notions of the Brethren of the Presbyterian Way, which were presented to your HOUSE some four or five years since; wherein they do in much strength and piety, as it seems to me, open the way and secrets of Spiritual Tyranny, and Conscience-yoaks; there is some occasion now of reminding the Brethren of these, because the strain of their preaching and printing seems to have forgotten these principles: Spiritual▪ Yo●ks and Burdens being taken off from us (through the hand of God upon ye) the memory of them seems to be gone off too from some; some have forgotten that they were strangers in the Land of Egypt; the Lord hath seemed to forgive the formerly Nonconforming Brethren all their debt, because they desired him: And now the Question is, Whether they should have compassion on their fellow servants as he had pity on them? The Controversy now before ye, is of all your Faithful ones, and therefore it calls for the tenderest judgement: Fathers may better beat servants than children out of doors; the one sort ●● I mistake not) contend that they may rule with ye▪ the oth●●●●●t they may be ruled by ye in the things of your own Kingdom and in that of the Kingdom of God, that jesus Christ may rule both ye and them: how just, how spiritual, this latter plea is, will appear from the choicest Reasonings of some in reputation with ye, which I have awakened. The things I present ye, I would not presume to make too positive, because I would not conclude a wisdom of your latitude under any notion of mine, (though I see private men take too much liberty in that way towards ye) though it is your indulgence not to know it. I here present ye things only to be considered, to be quaered, in the behalf of truth, and the advancement of your State, to which I am covenanted; and I am the bolder and freer, having sold something that I had for that pearl, for which we are bidden to sell all: I shall add some Considerations here to the rest: 1. Consider whether under Popery the mystery of the national Priesthood was not rather held up by the power of Princes and States, than States themselves by such a way of power; and whether the mystery of the national Ministry be not rather held up by the power of States now, than the States themselves in such a way of power; and then, whether all the Pretences and Consequences to draw● in States and Kingdoms for the Church's interest (if clearly discussed) be not rather a way of Antichristian mystery▪ then of zeal to Religion, or the power of Magistracy? 2. Consider whether in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ any other Sceptre should be lifted up then that golden one of his own, and whether if there be a Kingdom of God, if jesus Christ be the Lawgiver, and the Spirit of of Christ the interpreter of those Laws, and this Kingdom of God within the throne of that King of Kings, and Lord of Lords the Lord jesus, any other power should rule, any other Sceptre▪ any other Laws, or any other sit down in that Throne, which is only the Throne of the Son of David▪ whose Throne is for ever, the Sceptre of whose Kingdom is an everlasting Sceptre? 3. Consider whether there be not an Heathenish or Gentilish world, and an Antichristian world, or a world of many called Christians and believers in Christ, and yet a Church of Christ which is neither of these; and if so, whether is all this Kingdom of England that Church of Christ, or not rather much of it that part of the Antichristian world, over which one part of the mystery of iniquity hath sat long, and is yet upon it? And if so, then is there not room in England both for Presbyterial Churches, and Believers of other ways to live in that part of this Kingdom which is the world, and not that Church? And if so, ye may be rich in people, rich in peace, rich in the praises of the people of God. Honourable, go on to do worthy things▪ for our Nation, as worthy things have been done by you▪ and may ye be as the wings of a Dove covered with Silver, and her feathers with yellow Gold. So prays, Your humble faithful Servant, JOHN SALTMARSH. To the Reverend Divines of the Presbyterial way. Brethren, THese are the sig hangs of some of your own spirits under Episcopacy, under the Tyranny of that government. O how acute and sensible were your judgements and Consciences then of the usurpation, dominion, imposed Forms, when you were the sufferers! but now that your Brethren are become the Non-conformists to you, as you were Non conformists to the Prelates; and you the imposers, and your Brethren the sufferers; I find times and conditions are forgotten, and yokes are called for which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. I see by your printings and preachings the working of new dispositions in you, and Symptoms of something like Dominion and Persecution; surely Brethren your crying out thus for the civil power to help you or all is undone, is a sign you trust not to the Gospel strength, nor truth of you● way, but to the arm of flesh. Methinks of late your Sun is turning into darkness and blackness over us, and your Moon into blood: is it possible that yokes, burdens, whips, prisons, banishments, can be soon forgotten? Can Saints like natural men see their faces in a glass, and so soon forget what manner of men they were? I have reasoned with you in your own arguments; I hope your own arguments may find access to your spirits when ours cannot; men are sooner persuaded by their own reason then another's. O that the same sounding of bowels may be heard in you to your Brethren, that ye wished to hear in others who were once your taskmasters! What Joseph said in his affliction, we shall say to you, Think on us I pray you when it sh●ll be well with you, and show kindness; for it may be as Mordecai said, ye are come to the Kingdom for such a time as this; if not, enlargement and deliverance shall arise from another place. JOHN SALTMARSH. GROANS FOR LIBERTY. 1. Divisions ought to be no prejudice to the Truth. But he upbraids us with our Divisions and Subdivisions, and so do the See the ministers Book called Smeetymnuus presented to the Parliament, sect 18. printed 1641. Papists upbraid the Protestants with their Lutheranism, Calvinisme, and Zuinglianisme; and this is that the Heathens objected to the Christians, their fractures were so many they knew not which Religion to choose if they should turn christian's. And can it be expected, that the Church in any age should be free from Divisions, when the times of the Apostles were not free, and the Apostle tells us it must needs be that there be Divisions? In Greg. Nazian. his days there were six hundred errors in the Church; do these any ways derogate from the truth and worth of Christian Religion. Quaere. 1. Whether are not Divisions and Subdivisions objected now to all that are dissenting Brethren from the present wa● of Church-government? and whether are Divisions any more scandal to Religion now then before? 2. Whether is Independency, Anabaptism, Brownism, Seekers, of more evil report now▪ than Lutheranism, Calvinism, Zuinglianism formerly? 3. Whether is an hundred and eighty opinions, as some would reckon Mr. Edward's. them, more to be cast in the face of Religion now, then six hundred in the days of Nazianzen? 4. Whether is this fair dealing for Brethren to make Apologies for divisions and several opinions when they are oppressed, and to turn back in accusations upon their Brethren when the oppression is off from themselves? 2 Stinted Forms not to be imposed. The validity of which plea your Honours are best able to judge; and therefore See the same Smect. sect. 2. we leave it at your Bar: Yet these two things w● know, first that this form viz. of Liturgy, was never established to be so punctually observed, so rigorously pressed to the casting out of all that scruple it, or any thing in it. Quaere. 1. If former Liturgies were never established to be so punctually observed, why is there such pressing now for establishment of Forms, now to be observed in Worship and Discipline? seeing the former Divines walked as they thought by as true a light then, as the Divines of this age do now? 2. If Synods did not formerly establish things for such punctual observations, why are there any penalties, fines, imprisonments called for now, upon nonconformity to things established by them? 3. Why are the forms composed now so rigorously pressed, Uniformity so urged, when such practices and designs were condemned but a few years since? and they who urge it now, would scarce then seem to believe it to be the mind of former Synods and Parliaments? 4. If things were not to be rigorously pressed then to the casting out of any that scruple, why now? 3. No Forms of Particular men to be imposed on all the rest. But if by Lyturgy he understand prescribed and stinted forms of administration, See Smect. sect. composed by some particular men in the Church, and imposed upon all the rest (as this we must understand, or else all he saith is nothing;) we desire and expect th●● those Forms which he saith are yet extant, and ready to be produced, might once appear. Quaere. 1. If Forms composed by particular men be not to be imposed on all the rest, why do the Brethren now urge upon us all and upon all the Kingdom, their own Uniformity and Forms, since theirs is no more a Truth to others than others Forms were formerly a Truth to them? 2 Whether one Synod of Divines is not as well a few (●) compared 2 A some. with all the rest of the Kingdom as another Synod? and the same that were but a few (2) six years since, or sixty years since▪ but a few (3) still, unless 2 Or some. 3 Or some. the same numbers and accounts alter by years and seasons? and if so what reason is there ●on ones imposing more then another's, since Truth is no more to be reckoned by multitudes and Synods in one age, then in another? 4. No binding to the use of composed Forms. All other Reformed Churches, though they use Liturgies, yet do not bind See Smect. Quaere. Ministers to the use of them. Quaere. 1. Why do any Reformed Churches now undertake to bind any to the use of their Forms, seeing the Churches formerly durst not usurp it? and why under penalties now more than before? 2. Whether is that lawful now which was not four years since, and for these Brethren to do, which was unlawful for their Predecessors? 5. Severe imposing▪ a sin and a snare. That which makes many refuse to be present at our Church service, is not only See the same Quaere. the Liturgy itself, but the imposing it upon Ministers. Quaere. 1. If imposing of Forms was a snare before, how comes it to be none now? 2. If Ministers were not to be compelled then, why are they to be compelled now? 6. Liberty in use of Forms breeds no disturbance. Object. If it be objected that this will breed divisions and disturbances in the Se● the same Quaere. 2. Churches unless there be a uniformity. Ans. It hath not bred any disturbance in other Reformed Churches. Why should the free liberty of using or not using breed mo●e confusion then the liberty of reading or not reading Homilies, especially when Ministers shall teach people not to condemn one another in things indifferent. Quaere. 1. How comes it to pass that liberty in the use of Forms bred no disturbances before, and yet now all is pretended to be undone if uniformity be not preserved 2. Why are Divines more jealous of conscientious and in offensive liberty now, that the Government is coming into their own hands, then when it was in their Predecessors? 3. If Brethren are not to condemn one another in things indifferent, why do they teach now a Persecution to all that conform not to things indifferent only, but unlawful, as all parts in Worship and Government are, which are Devices of men? 7. No set Forms for the first 300. years. For Christian Liturgies which the Remonstrant had affirmed to have been See Smect. ● sect. 2. the best improvement of the peace and happiness of the Evangelical Church ever since the Apostles times, we challenge the Remonstrance, setting aside those that are confessedly spurious, to produce any Liturgy that was the issue of the first 300. Years. Quaere. 1. If solemn and set-formes and Directores were excepted against, and accused then as no friends to the peace and happiness of Churches, why are they made now the choicest means of peace and unity, and all those Churches condemned as erroneous that are without them? 2. If no set-formes can be produced as the issue of the first 300. years, why are they continued still, * Viz. in the worship no● Sect. ●●. which hath neither precept from Scriptures, nor precedent from Apostles or Primitive practice to warrant them? why are the crimes and will-worship of forefathers condemned by their children, yet afterwards taken up? the father's eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 8. Things that even offend Anabaptists are to be removed. It is under careful hands, and hearts more merciful, viz. the Parliament, See Smect. sect. ●. than this Remonstrant is (to remit troubled consciences to no better cure than Mr, Fisher's Book) who we hope will do by those as the Helvetians did by somethings that were stumbled at amongst them, though there were none but Anabaptists that stumbled at them, yet the State did by Authority remove them, and Zuinglius their pofessed adversary gives them thanks for occasioning the removal. Quaere. 1. Why may not the Brethren look for better cure to their troubled consciences from the State now, then from some of their Brethren, because the hands and hearts of the State have appeared more careful, more merciful than some of them? the Priests and Levits walk by, while the good Samaritans comfort the wounded. 2. If the State of the Helvetians would not offend the very Anabaptists, but remove the scandal: why should any State now be set on and inflamed not only to offend, but persecute them; not only Anabaptists as they are called, but all other their Brethren that descent? If States are commended then for being so tender, why are they preached now into severity, wrath, revenge and tender troubled consciences made the only trouble? 9 Rigour makes Separatists. But we think, nay we know that some few Prelates by their overrigorous See Smect. sect. 2. pressing have made more Separatists than all the Preachers dis-affected to Ceremonies in England. Quaere. 1. If it hath appeared formerly that rigorous imposings have occasioned Separation, why do they now cry out of so many Separatists, and not look up to themselves? Why do they beat their fellow servants out of doors, and then cry out of their running away? 2. Why is not persecution and imposing more forborn by the Brethren now, when they have found it the cause of their own Separation formerly? 3. Why do they cry out of Separatists, when they see Separatists have not so much made themselves so as they have been made so by others, and they have been rather driven away, than they have drawn away themselves? Why do they cry out of Separation, when they force them into corners first, if they would have the communion of their Brethren more, why make they not their persecution less, and their offences in Worship and Government less? 10. Burdens to Churches to be removed. In the mean we bless God who hath put into the hearts of others into See Smect. sect. 2. whose hands he hath concredited the work to judge more wisely, and consider more mercifully, and to profess in the hearing of some of us, they would willingly part with that which was indifferent to themselves, if they were but truly informed it was offensive to others, according to that of Gregory, those customs which are known to bring any burdens upon the Churches, it becomes us to consider of the removing of them. Quaere. 1. Why may not the State too be petitioned by their people now of tender Consciences, to the same temper of tenderness and mercy to them, that the Brethren then desired for themselves? Whether are those good neighbours that would have it rain only in their own Gardens, and the Sun to shine only on their own blossoms and have peace only in their own dwellings, and their neighbour Towns running with blood? 2. Were the times of Non-conformists than times only for removing burdens from Churches, and the times of Non-conformists now times of burdening Churches? 11. men's devices ought not to hinder preaching. This is just as our Bishops were wont to do, who give a full power to a See Smect. sect. 87. Presbyter at his Ordination to preach the Gospel with a charge to do it, yet will not suffer him to preach no not in his own cure without a Licence. Quaere. 1. When any than was gifted and called to preach the Gospel and Licenses were complained on to hinder, why are there any other ways devised against the liberty of the Gospel now? as uniformity, etc. 2. Were Licenses chains and fetters to the glorious and free spirit? And are internogatories and ●uestions at times of Ordination and admission about Antipaedobaptisme, Antinomianism now no restraints nor devices to the same purpose, is this to rejoice that Christ is preached, howsoever, nay is not this to forbid him because he follows not with us? 12. men's inventions to set up jus Divinum to advance Government. They that have studied to advance the Babel of Episcopacy, have endeavoured See Smect. sect 87. to underpin it with some Texts of Scripture, that they might plead a jus divinum for it. Quaere. 1. Was it unlawful, and politic in some to underpin Episcopacy with some Texts of Scriptures, and so to get up a ●us divinum for it? and is it not as unlawful to set up another Form that is not purely of God, underpinned with Texts of Scripture for a jus divinum, or divine right as some would have had it? 13. Oath ex officio an unlawful engine. We desire to see further how abominable this Oath is, how cried down by The same Sm● sect. ●6. learned men, how contrary to the Word of God, the Law of nature, to the Civil and Cannon Laws, and to the Statutes of our Kingdom, he may find in Mr. Parker. Quaere. 1. Was it so contrary to the Word of God, to all Civil and Common Laws, and the Law of our own Kingdom to extort from men Consciencesecrets; then of what kind are all Forms of posing, examining, interogating to find out the opinions of those who are to preach in any Congregation? 14. When Presbyters grow as tyrannous as Bishops they are to suffer. But if the Presbyters should be as generally corrupted as Bishops now are, have as much strength to suppress the Gospel and promote Popery, as the Bishops by their supreme power have, and if they can bring no more evidence of divine institution than Bishops can, and are of no more necessity to the Church than Bishops are let the function suffer. Quaere. May not the very thing be more feared and presumed by us now, from some late experiments of them viz. that the Presbyters may grow strong to suppress the Gospel, and tyronnous etc. and may be corrupted, as Bishops formerly, as well as they might prophesy this of themselves? Caiaphas' thought as little of Christ when he said, one should die for the people, as some Presbyters thought of suppressing the Gospel themselves, and suffering for it, when they wrote thus against Bishops and Presbyters. 15. Change of words in Religion an ill sign▪ We find that the late Innovators which have so much disturbed the peace and purity of our Church, did first be●in with alterations of words; and the Apostle exhorts us to hold fast the form of sound words, 2 Tim 1. 13. and avoid profane novelties of words. Quaere. 1. If the change of words be so dangerous, and unwholesome Forms, and so condemned before▪ why are unwarrantable words taken up again, as Classical Provincial, national, Triers, Directories, which are no more Forms of wholesome, nor Scripture words? 16. Reproaches ●o Arguments. If confident slight and scornful denials be sufficient answers to us and our arguments, never any man hath better defended Episcopacy, or more strongly confuted those that oppose it. Quaere. If confident sleightings▪ etc. were counted no sufficient answers from the Prelates to the Presbyters, why are Presbyters sleightings counted so sufficient arguments for their Dissenting Brethren now? and if to rail be to reason, and to revile be to refute; Mr. Edward's and some of his brethren have as strongly confuted us, as the Prelates did formerly them. 17. Prelate's impropriate Orthodox. In impropriating to the same party the praise of Orthodox, as if to speak See Smect. Epist. a word or think a thought against them were no less Heresy, than it was in former times to speak against the Pope's Supremacy, or the Monks fat belly. Quaere. 1. It it were so ill taken by the Presbyters then, that the Prelates impropriated the name Orthodox: how may it be taken now by all the rest who are cast out as Heretics and Schismatics, while they walk abroad clothed only in the name of Orthodox Divines? 2. If the Pope's Supremacy and the Monks fat belly, and the Prelates could not bear a word nor a thought against them; are not some Divines working for a supremacy and a revenue, against which it may prove as great a crime to speak. 18. All not of their opinion are factious. Sure the man thinks he hath obtained a Monopoly of Learning, and Smect. sect. 3. all knowledge is loct up in his bosom, and not only Knowledge but Piety and peaceableness too; for all that are not of his opinion must suffer, either as weak or factious if he may be their judge. Quaere. 1. Whether do not they who hold all other in Schism and Heresy, and a company of Mechanics who conform not to them, conceive they have the Monopoly of Learning as once the Prelates did: and who are these now? 2. Whether do not they who look on their Brethren that descent as Troub●ers, Factious, Schismatical; cenceive all Piety and peaceableness to be locked up in their own bosoms: and who are they? and who are the weak and factious if they may be judges? 19 Prelate's paths causes of Divisions. It is no wonder, concerning the paths our Prelates have trod, that there See Sect. 18. are divisions in the Nation; the wonder is the Divisions are no more, no greater. Quaere. If the usurpation, Tyranny, Persecution of the Prelates, were reckoned for the supreme division makers in the Kingdom, when the Non-conformists were the only Separatists; Why do they not find out some other or such like cause now, in some other place, rather than amongst their dissenting Brethren themselves, whom they now only accuse of division and faction? but this is the difference of being Parties and judges, we naturally spy out faults furthest from ourselves. 20. Where is the Church of England? We desire him to tell us what the Church of England is, for it doth not please Sect. the same him that we should call the Convocation the Church of England, much less the Bishops or Archbishops. Quaere. It was so hard to find out the Church of England in the Prelate's days, surely it is hard to find it out now; than it seems neither Synod, Bishops, nor Archbishops were the Church. Then Quaere, where is the Church now? not in the Assembly, they are but consulting how to build the Church; not in the Presbytery, for that is a Church unbuilt yet; not among the Paris●es, they are not Scripture-Churches or Congregations as the same Smectymnuus says; then where is the Church of England? 21. The name of Church is the Gorgons-Head. But these Episcopal men deal as the Papists that dazzle the eyes, and astonish Smect. sect. 17. the senses of poor people with the glorious name of the Church, the Church, the holy mother the Church; this is the Gorgons-Head that hath enchanted them and held them in bondage to their errors; all their speech is of the Church, the Church; no mention of the Scriptures of God the Father, but all of the mother the Church. Quaere. 1. If the name of Church then, the Mother-Church, the Church was such a Gorgons-Head by which Prelates as well as Papists enchanted thousands of people to believe: why is that very thing or device taken up in another form to inchant with still, viz. The Church of England, the Orthodox Churches, the Reformed Churches? 2. If the Church Mother was so much spoken on before, and the Scriptures so little? why is not the Church of England the Reformed Churches, the Orthodox Churches and Divines less spoken on, and the Scriptures more? 22. An ill Custom to say Church of England and Conformity. It hath been the custom of late times to cry up the holy mother the Church Sect. the same of England, to call for absolute obedience to holy Church, full conformity to the orders of holy Church, neglecting in mean time God the Father and the holy Scriptures. Quaere. If it hath been the unwarrantable custom of late times to cry up the Church of England, and absolute obedience to the Church, and confor●●●●, why is this custom still kept up? conformity, obedience, and uniformity as much called for still, as before? why is not the word more spoken on, and the Reforme● Church less? why is not free Christian liberty, peaceable forbearance of each others differing opinions, and practices in unity, more heard among us, and obedience, conformity, and uniformity less? 23. To call Schismatics and Heretics the Bishop's practice. Only there is one practice of our Bishops, that is their casting out unconforming Sect. the same. Brethren commonly known in their Court language by the name of Schismatics and Heretics. Quaere. 1. If the Bishops did practise the casting out the Nonconforming Brethren, w●itner ought any such practice to be taken up by the Nonconforming Brethren against Brethren now not Conforming to them? 2. If all the Nonconforming Brethren were in their Court-language Heretics and Schismatic, whether ought not such names to be sent packing to Court again, rather than taken up by the same Brethren, who were so much called so themselves, Heretics and Schismatics, that they have taken it up against others? 24. Heresies and Schism harsh words. But we had hoped the refusal of the use of a Ceremony, should never have See Sect. the same. been equalised in the punishment either to Heresy or Schism. Quaere. If you hoped that the refusal of a Ceremony would not have been punished with Heresy and Schism from Bishops, may not your Brethren hope much more from you, that their dissenting from you in things of outward Cognizance and Form, as Church Order and Baptism, would not be so branded for Heresy and Schism by you (who glory in a more gospel-way) as as you were branded yourselves of late? 25. Heavy censures for Nonconformity. I am sure above the crime of the Remonstrant, Nonconforming Brethren, See Smect. sect. 13. who are unsettled in points of a mean difference (which their usual language known by no betters term then Schismatics and factions) yet even such as have fallen under the heaviest censures of Excommunication, deprivation, suspension, etc. Quaere. 1. Why was it such a crime to count any Schismatics and factious, under Prelacy? and why is it now under Presbytery matter of just report against others? 2. If Excommunications, Deprivations▪ Suspensions, etc. were esteemed so burdensome and cruel? then why are Fines, Penalties, and imprisonments, so much preached for now? why do not the Brethren of the Presbyterial way, think it as hard for the Magistrates to afflict their Brethren, as they thought it hard in the Prelates to afflict themselves? 26. No Presbyters to be Ambitious. Neither in any of his writings the least intimation of superiority of one Sect. the same Presbyter over another save only where he names Diotrephes as one ambitiously affecting such Supremacy. Quaere. If none but such as Diotrephes is observed in Scripture for affecting Supremacy, and Superiority, and if one Presbyter cannot be found affecting place above other Presbyters in opposition to Bishops; then how is it cleared, that a Presbyter may be supreme to a whole Church or Congregation: and that it is not as much Superiority for some few Presbyters to affect being above many Saints together in one Church, as for one in name or office as a Bishop, to affect place above another in name or office as a Presbyter, and so Episcopacy be as warrantable as Presbytery, and both alike unwarrantable? A Beam of Light to discover a way to the peace both of CHURCH and STATE. By way of Considerations. Consid. 1. LEt it first be considered where the great obstructions lie against Liberty or Toleration of Brethren of several ways, and if it may not be found to be in these things; 1. A taking the whole Kingdom of England for the Church of England, and so setting up the National Magistracy of Israel in the Nation now as it was then, which how it may be warranted, would be well considered. 2. A jealousy how to preserve the present Ecclesiastical Interest without the choicest power of the Magistrate to help it, which if well observed, makes it appear to be less of God and more of Man. 3. An interpretation of these Gospel's Scriptures which concern Magistracy, Rom. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 12, 14. (which I humbly conceive to be so far as concerns any good or evil either of the Law of Nature or Nations) into a good or evil purely spiritual, and of mere revelation in the Gospel, as things of gospel-light, and mystery, and notions of Heresy and Schism are: this latitude of interpretation of the general Rules in the Gospel concerning Magistracy, into all particulars of Truth and Heresy, is of high consideration. Consid. 2. Let it be considered, how the Kingdom of England may be called the Church, taking in all the Northern parts, the Western parts, the whole Nation generally to the very walls of London, with Mr. Marshal's Testimony, M. Marshal's serm Nou. 17. 1640. that many thousands, nay, thousands of thousands▪ (which accordingly reckoned takes up almost the greatest part of the Kingdom) not knowing their right hand from their left in the very principles of the Doctrine of Christ; and saith Mr Martial; no land can be esteemed Christ's Kingdom where the preaching of the wera is not established: is any country esteemed a part of a Prince's Dominion that is not ruled by his Laws? Consid. 3. Let it be considered then, seeing the Kingdom of England is not a Church, but in the general a Nation baptised into they know not what at first, and believing generally they knew not in whom ever since, as Mr. Martial, whether there may not be a free peaceable cohabitation of the people together, viz. of those called Presbyterial, Independent, Anabaptists, enjoying there several ways of practice in things of outward cognizance and order, as Baptism, Church-Order, etc. in all peaceable demeanour and godliness, as well in this spiritual variety, as so many Corporations, Counties, Divisions, Armies, and several Companies, in that their civil variety; and yet in all, a civil comeliness, peace▪ and unity. Consid. 4 Let it be considered, whether the Civil power in such a Gospell-mystery, as Presbytery is, and the way of Baptism is, and the way of Independency is, may not with more lawfulness, less hazard of sin, and safety, keep off, or suspend his engagements from all sides, seeing there lies Gospell-strength and Arguments on all sides, and walk only according to those general Rules the Gospel hath laid him down in Rom. 1. 3, 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2▪ 1 Pet. 2. 13, 14. not daring to draw himself to revenge any misbelief of particular Scripture mysteries; forcing either side either for Presbytery, Independency, or Baptism, which the Gospel hath no where warranted him in special or in any clear consequence to do, but such as the present prevailing Brethren draw out from the judicial law of Moses to help: and from these general Gospel rules, which can bring forth but an opinionative justice, as their Arguments an opinionative truth, or Presbytery & whether the Magistrate ought not to demand a more clear & equitable rule in things of spiritual cognizane, I humbly present to be considered. Whether there ought not to be a certain Rule for a certain justice: so if there should ever be a proceeding to Fines, Imprisonment, Banishment, the Divines can administer no more certain grounds for the Magistrates conscience, than such as they have for their own, which are but probable, controvertible, doubtful, as the Arguments on all sides will make appear. Consid. 5. Let it be considered, whether it hath not been one of the national sins, viz. Making Laws, against all other I ormes, but what it did establish itself Nationally; by which experience hath told us, how Gospel Truths have been kept out whole Generations; ●opish States kept out Protestantism, and Prelacy kept out Peesbytery, and whether Presbytery proceeding on the same ground, is not in the same danger of sin, and of keeping out other Truths; and whether upon this ground, any Gospel's Revelation or Light Mr. Case Serm. God's waiting, pag. 62. (of which there shall be an Increasing every day, as Mr. Case himself preached) ever shall come into this Nation, but of the national size and temper; and we know that is not often the Gospel's way; the Lord hath chosen the weak things, and base things. Consid. 6. Let it be considered whether part of the great Mystery of iniquity be not that of drawing in the strength of the Nations, the Princes of the Rev. 17. 12, 13. earth, to support the Ecclesiastical or Church glory, and let this be sadly considered; did not Popery get in the Kingdoms of the world to support itself? Did not Prelacy stand by the same power? Doth not Presbytery hold itself by the same strength of Magistrates? Are not the same Iron rods and scourges of steel conveyed over from one of them to the other? Did not the Pope whip the Protestant with fine, imprisonments▪ and the Prelate take the rod out of his hand and whip the Nonconformist, and the Nonconformist or Presbyter take the same ●od out of the Prelate's hand and scourge those that are Non-conformists to him? Consid▪ 7. Let it be well considered, whether the design of the national Ministry, eversince the first working of it upon the Magistrates hath no● a design for strengthening their own interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdoms, and how have▪ Kingdoms been embroiled for the serving of this design, and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation. Consid. 8. Let it be considered from the several ways and Forms of proceeding in which the believers of several opinions have gone in these times to support themselves, which stands most on a pure Gospel spiritual bottom, supported by its own innate congenial and proper strength, clasping about no stones▪ no pillars of the world▪ or humane strength. Consid. 9 Let it be considered, whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other Mr. Edw. his Gangraena. party (as in the late Book) is not all to the Magistrate: Help us Parliament, help us City or we are undone, the Heresies and Sects will undo us; What said Ezra, I was ashamed (saith he) to require of the King an army and Ezra 8. 22. horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way, because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him. Consid. 10. Let it be considered whether they whom he calls Heretics and Schismatics, make it one of their choicest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons, fines, pillories; but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weakness of their Gospel's principles, and that they may have liberty to pray for them, pay to them and possess the Gospel. Each opinionst t briefly, respectively to Toleration. Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresy will amount to. Independency. INdependents believe that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted, the Churches ought to consist of those of them only that profess more purely, as they find Scripture Rule and Practice; and as the Presbyterians themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances▪ as that of Baptism and Supper▪ giving them only to the purest Believers. They also believe that they ought not be a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their Power and Dominion, but rather under under their advice and consultation. Quaere. Because than they practise to meet more purely, and to rule less one over another; whether is this enough that they should be fined, imprisoned, banished? The Anabaptists. THe Anabaptists so called, they hold that Believers ought only to be baptised, and that Baptism ought to be so for the manner, as may set forth Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection by water, as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply, and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not; and for children, they read of none the Apostles Baptised, and they see not any Scripture clear enough to warrant, and they therefore forbear. Quaere. Because they will not practise then what is not clear in command, and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence; because they baptise as they find the clearest rule and practice, and as none can deny but it was the Apostles general practice to baptez▪ Believers: therefore, whither is this enough that they should be Fined, Imprisoned, Banished? The Seekers. SEekers, some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances, as of Baptism, etc. because they find that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts, and from them to others, and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops, as the Reformed Kingdoms generally take it, nor from the Churches, because they find no such power begun from the Churches, but only of cheyne of consent, not of power not Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts. Quaere. Whether then is this enough, because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances, but from such, and in such a manner as was given at first, to Fine, Imprison, or Banish them? A Model or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively▪ to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and practice of both parties, in a Pet●●nary way. They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State. WE humbly Petition ye, that Herericks and Schismatics (we believing all that differ from us to be so) may have your power inflicted upon them, whether to Fines, Imprisonm●n, or Banishment, and upon this condition, ye shall have what we can do, or preach, etc. The Independents to the Magistrates or State. WE humbly Petition, that ye will not hazard nor endanger your civil power of the State to help our opinions against our Brethren, for we are not infallible nor Apostolical, we see but in part, and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others, for what they believe or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospel, and that we may have leave to pray for ye, to pay tribute to ye, to fight for ye, and to worship the Lord among ourselves peaceably as we believe, and to punish us when we disturb ye by tumults, or trouble your peace in our way of worshipping. Some Quaeres for the better understanding of M. Edward's last Book, called in Latin Gangrena, But in English, a Book of Scandals, against the Honourable Houses of Parliament, the Army, the Saints and Churches of Christ, that differ from him. Quaere. 1. Whether this be not a new way, and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel-light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errors and heresies, which can scar●e obtain from the Press and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad: and if this ●e not to take the wise in their own craftiness, and to make M. Cranford the Licenser, and M. Edward's the Publisher of some such Truths, which the world had else never known so publicly, but under the form of heresy, and from their two pens, but under this disguise? 2. Whether that Story which M. Edwards tells of Brasteed in Kent, where he says a woman preaches which is known to myself, and all in that place to be a mere untruth, be not a way to judge of most of his Stories, Letters, Relations? 3. Whether this late Book called Gangrena, where there are so many letters writ to the Reverend M. Edward's, to the Worthy M. Edward's, to the Good M. Edward's, to the Father M. Edward's, to the Worthy, Reverend, good M. Edward's, with divers other insinuations of his own worth, be not a way of seeking glory▪ and praise from men? 4. Whether so many Letters as are in the Book called Gangrena, where there is not one name subscribed, may not be as well written from M. Edward's as to him: and whether the Authors of those Letters whose names are suppressed, are not afraid to be questioned for their Relations, and therefore have either conceived their names themselves, or M. Edwaras' for them? 5. Whether the great reasonings and conflicts, which M. Edwards saith he had in his spirit in the writing of this book, and says were only carnal conflicts, were not rather conflicts with that spirit of God, which breathed on him more love and charity to his Brethren, than it seems he would receive at that time. 6. Whether his accusing the Parliament and Army, the one for tolerating as never Christian State or Magistrate were known to do; the other for Antinomianism, Independency, Familisme, Seraphanisme, etc. be not of high and dangerous insinuation to the people at such a juncture of time, and of desperate ●ritation to our Brethren of Scotland, and is against the solemn League and Covenant, one great Article of it? 7. Whether this be a sufficient confutation of my Book called the Smoke in the Temple, to call it a Book of errors, as he doth in Pag. 3. Epist. and in Pag. 180. where he saith only, this is an error, and that is an error, without the least particle of Reason or Scripture to prove it; where if mere accusations may pass for crimes, I wonder he made his Book so large, and rather summed not all up into one grand affirmative, viz. This is all heresy, and so have spared the Reader much pains, and himself much paper? 8. Whether hath M. Edward's dealt faithfully and ingenuously as became a Brother, pretending to so much clearness and integrity of spirit (and which makes me suspect him in the rest) viz. to charge me with positive errors (which my Book can witness to the world) I writ as exceptions to serve a design of Peace and Reconciliation, and not as my opinions? 9 Whether the design which M. Edwards pretends in setting forth his Book, viz. to make the blasphemies and errors of the times (as he calls them) to be detested, is not rather a far contrary design, viz. to spread poison, infect many souls who by this shall come to the knowledge of such things as they never heard before, having provided no Antidote, nor any Answer of Scripture or reason against them, but merely contradictions, and ill words; it was observed that some books set forth for the discovery of witchcraft, made many W●ches; and so who knows how many heretics he may make by this his pretended design against them; sure either some of the heresies or diseases were so above his care or remedy, or he had a counter design to make Heretics, or the wisdom of his design was turned into folly, making Heretics by writing against them. M. Edward's Designs against His Brethren that differ from him. Gangrena, p. 164. Let us fill all Presses, and make all Pulpits ring, and so possess Parliament, City and whole Kingdom against Sects. Quaere. Whether this be not according as the Priests and Elders did about Christ's Resurrection saying to the Soldiers, say you they stole him away, and if any thing come to the Governors' ear, we will persuade him, that is, let us cry out they are all Heretics and Schismatics, and we will persuade the Governors that it is so. M. Edward's Book, p. 172. Let the Magistrate put out some Declarations declaring they shall be proceeded against as Vagrants and Rogues. Quaere. Whether is this wisdom like that from above, which is first pure, then peaceable: whether these be such words as the Angel gave, who would not give the very Devil himself ill language, but The Lord rebuke thee O Satan. M. Edward's Book, Epist. Page 4. When I think of, etc. how many powerful Sermons you have had preached before you about the Covenant against the Sects, the many Petitions, and yet how little is done, etc. God accounts all those Errors, Heresies, let alone and suffered, to be the sins of those who have power. Quaere. Whether is not this a representing to the world, and a public insinuation that the Parliament are Sermon-sleighters, Covenant-breakers, heretical, unjust, Petition-sleighters; and whether this ought not to have been rather represented by him in private papers, than thus to arraign them before the people, and to make them vile in the eyes of the world, who have exceeded all their Predecessors in being tender of the blood and sufferings of God's people, and giving the Church's rest, for which they have prospered more in the field in victories for this their peace at home, than ever before. M. Edward's, p. 2. Epist, to Gangrena. You have done worthily against Papists and Prelays, etc. but what have you done against other kind of growing evils, Heresies, Libertines, etc. Quaere. Whether is not this to charge upon the Parliament all those things which he so grossly aggravates to the world as Blasphemies, etc. and to bury all the Honour of the Good they have done, in the Sepulchre of the Evil which he saith they are now in doing. M. Edward's Epist. Noble Senators, be pleased to pardon the boldness I shall take, etc. not to impute it to my malignity, etc. I am one who out of choice, and of judgement, have embarked myself with you. Quaere. Whether doth it not clearly appear by this Apology, and insinuation of his own worth and good affections that he knew well to what a Crime and Transgression both against Parliament and Piety the Book he had writ would amount to, and therefore bespoke their just indignation and Censure beforehand with this story of his good affections, and embarking himself for them. Whether did M. Edward's consider the Parliaments Honour, Quality, Capacity, that durst entitle them to the Patronage of such immodest, ridiculous Stories and Tales, as he brings in his Gangrena. An Expostulation with M. Edward's, upon his Book called GANGRAENA. SIR, THe uncharitable expressions of your Book against those who see not by your Light, and write not by your Candle; your binding up the Tares with the Wheat together, and the precious with the vile; your trampling upon your Brethren as the mire in the streets, have forced my Spirit into these few Queries; for Stones sake I cannot hold my peace. The Designs of your Book seem to be these: 1. A Design of Provocation to the Magistrate against your Brethren. 2. Of Accusation, under the old project of Heretics and Schismatics. 3. Of Historical Recreation to the people, that they may make themselves sport with the Believers that differ from ye, as the Philistines with Samson upon the Stage. Can your wounded Brethren make ye good music? Can their failings make ye more innocent? Or their sins make ye more spiritual? You would have all the Believers that are not of your mind, banished, etc. will you who pretend yourself to be a friend, be such an enemy to the State as to cut off (like Ner● the Tyrant's wish) so many thousand of their faithful servants at a blow, in such a juncture of time when they need so many? Ought ye to work off so many choice ones from this Cause, till you have as many more of your way for their places; and till as many Battles, years, experiments, prove them as gloriously faithful, as these are; is this fair dealing with the State? You have brought forth before Israel and the Sun, many pretended sins and crimes of your Brethren: Suppose they should write by your Copy, and bring forth the Aslembly-sinnes, the crimes of all those of your way, of all the Divines and others that you take in, and rake back into the ashes of their unregenerate condition, keep Almanacs for the years and days of their failings, watch their haltings in all things they say or do, tell all the Stories of them they hear, what would the next generation think of their Book and yours? At this rate of writing they would not read one honest man of all their forefathers yet this is your course and method. I have done for this time, and I hope all that are not enchanted with the Gorgons-head of Heretics and Schismatics and Church of England, (as your own Smectymnians say) will read and judge. I had said more to ye, had you printed us more Reason, and less Reviling, and something more than Stories and Winter-tales. And for our Licenser, whom you so rail at, he is so much a friend to all the world of believers, as to give them the Scripture-liberty of proving and trying all things; and not to silence the Press, as some would, and as the Prelates did silence the Pulpit. And now let any age, weighing all the differences (excepting the Blasphemies, etc.) and the nature of them nakedly, without aggravations, and fallacy of words, bring forth a Book printed in such Letters of blood, as this Gangraena, bind up all the Oxford Aulicusses, the Mountagues, the pocklington's, and see if this Gangraena do not exceed them all; this is Persecution and Prelacy sublimate. And for all this, I would not have the Civil power drawn against you, (if we had all the Magistrates on our side) but rather that you may in the flow of a more heavenly spirit, with your head of waters, and your eyes a fountain of tears, write against your own Book, and let the world see that Men in these times are not infallible, as you all conclude, but may mistake their Brethren for Enemies, some Truths for Errors, and Zeal for Persecution, as the very Jews did when they crucified Christ, as they thought, for Blasphemy; And some shall kill ye, saith Christ, and think they do God good service. A Parallel between the Prelacy and the Presbytery. Quaere. Whether if we should reply to M. Edward's in his own words, and as Solomon saith, answer him according to his, etc. we not compare things as followeth, and trace up their proceedings into the very mystery of Prelacy? 1. The Prelates were ordained Ministers by the Bishops. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines that sit now, are Ordained by the same power of Bishops to be Ministers, and so by that power ordain others? 2. The Prelates when they had made Canons, procured the power of the State to impose them upon all the Kingdom. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now get the same power to what they decree, and accordingly impose them upon the Kingdom? 3. The Prelates composed one great Service-booke for direction to Uniformity of worship, according as they had ordered under penalties, yet without the least word of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, Divines have composed one great Book accordingly now for the like Uniformity, viz. the Directory to be observed under fines and penalties; and yet without the least word or tittle of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it? 4. The Prelates ordered, that from that Book Prayers should be read to the people. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now have not cast the Prayers of the Spirit into such Forms and Methods, that a little invention will make them as stinted currant and legible Forms as before, and accordingly read in divers places? 5. The Prelates counted all that would not conform to them, Schismatical and Heretical. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now count not all so that will not be uniform with them? 6. The Prelates forbade all to Preach and Print, that did not Preach and Print for their way of worship and Government. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now would not have all hindered from Pulpit and Press that will not be of way of Worship and Government with them? 7. The Prelates possessed themselves of the State's power and favour. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now wholly labour after the same interest, both in Parliament and other Councles? 8. The Prelates had their Licensers to stop all that write against their power and pomp. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now labour to engross the power of licensing only to themselves? 9 The Prelates had for part of their Government, Fines, Pillories, Whips, Imprisonment. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now have those very things for part of theirs? 10. The Prelates had Parishes for their Churches, and Tithes for their maintenance. Quaere. Whether may it not be said the Divines now have the same Parishes now for Churches, the same Tithes for maintenance? 11. The Prelates called all other meetings but their Parish-meetings, Conventicles. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now call the Churches and people that meet now together apart from them, Conventicles as formerly. 12. The Prelates called the Non-conformists factious troublers of the State. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now do accordingly call any that write or oppose their Presbytery, factious and Statetroublers? 13. The Prelates ever accused their Nonconforming Brethren to the King and Council. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now accordingly accuse their Nonconforming Brethren to the Parliament and other Counsels? 14. The Prelates had a design to send all their Non-conformed Brethren to strange Kingdoms, as New-England. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now endeavour to send their Nonconforming Brethren to other places out of the Kingdom? 15. The Prelates engrossed all the Preaching, and preferring Divines to all places of honour and popularity in the Kingdom to themselves. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now do accordingly prefer to all places of public trust, honour, and employment▪ as Universities, Navy, Armies, Garrison-Towns, Counties, Cities, & c? 16. The Prelates would not suffer men whom they called Laymen, to speak of the Scriptures. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now do forbid and contemn all laymen's gifts in the same manner? 17. The Prelates would not suffer any to go from the Parish-Minister. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now accordingly labour to have all keep to their Parishes. 18. The Prelates called Truths which they received not; New Lights, Errors. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now accordingly call all things they receive not, New Lights, Whimsies, Errors. 19 The Prelates laboured to scandalise their Nonconforming Brethren with Nicknames, etc. Quaere. Whether may it not be said, the Divines now accordingly labour to make their Nonconforming Brethren vile and scandalous to the Kingdom? Ezek. 18 2. Thus the Fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. Thus if we would compare crimes and times, we might write and speak. Quaere. Whether M. Edward's in reekoning up divers▪ things for Errors, hath not much aspersed his own Brethren▪ Doctor Twisse, M. Gattaker, and many others in many Doctrinal points they hold? The Testimony of M. Samuel Rutherford, one of the Scotch Commissioners, in the last Page of his Epistle to the Reader, in his Book Entitled, The Divine Right of Church-Government, and Excommunication. No encroaching on Christ's Prerogative. BUt it is a Controversy (say some) whether the Government of the Church of the New Testament, belong to the Magistrate or to the Church? To which I say 1. It was a controversy created by men willing to please Princes, with more power in the Courts of Christ then ever the Lawgiver and Apostles gave them, and that against the mind of glorious Lights, the first Reformers, and the whole Troop of Protestant Divines, who studied the Controversy against the usurped Monarchy of the man of sin, more exactly than one Physician, who in a cursory way diverted off his Road of Medicine, of which he wrote learnedly, and broke in on the by upon the deepest polemics of diyinity, and reached a rider's blow unawares to his Friends. 2. In things doubtful, conscience hath refuge to the surest side: Now it's granted by all, and not controverted by any, that in the Apostolic Church, the government of the Church of the New Testament was in the hands of Apostles, Pastors, Teachers; and therefore Conscience would sway to that in which there can be no Error, except on supposal of abuse; and Christian Rulers would not do well to venture upon Eternity, wrath, the judgement to come; confiding on the poor plea of an Erastian distinction, to encroach upon the Prerogative Royal of Jesus Christ. FINIS. THese Reasons, tending not only to the sweetening of the TWO KINGDOMS, England and Scotland, the Parliament, and Dissenting Brethren on both sides, in the Assembly, each to other; but also to the preserving a Just Liberty for them all respectively, I commend to the Press. March 30. 1646. JOHN BACHILER. THE DIVINE RIGHT OF PRESBYTERY; Asserted by the present Assembly, and Petitioned for accordingly to the Honourable House of Commons in PARLIAMENT. With REASON'S Discussing this pretended Divine-Right; and yet with tenderness to the Brethren of the Presbyterial way. Pleading for a Liberty of Conscience for them in this their Opinion, as for others of their Dissenting Brethren, and equally for both. With Inferences upon their late PETITION. By John Saltmarsh, Preacher of the Gospel. Rev 2. 2. Thou hast tried those that say they are Apostles, but are not. LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAUL'S. 1646. To those Brethren of the Assembly of Divines, Petitioners who are for the pretended Divine Right of the present PRESBYTERY. BRETHREN, Meeting ye but of the Assembly, or that bounder appointed ye by Par●. I cannot justly be denied this reasoning with ye; for the Ordinance by which ye sit, doth enable ye only to advise of See Ordin. Iu●. 12 1643. P. 4. things propounded, but not to propound or demand any as ye have done of late; so as in this ye have brought yourselves down to the same magnitude with us that are private men: Here is the difference now; Ye are many of better parts and abilities; I am as one borne out of duetime; yet the same Covenant is upon me with your selves; nor ought I because I am but one, presume to see Truth more than one, because ye are many; Nay, it is that voice from the excellent 2 Pet. 1. 17. glory which both you and I must hear, and which can only teach us Truth; It is not the voice of any other. And surely, since Truth hath had its lot in the world to l●ve upon voices in Assemblies and Synods, where that is only Truth which is voted so, and not in its own glory and evidence, where that is only Truth which is so: The Mystery of iniquity hath been more advanced than the Mystery of godliness. THE DIVINE RIGHT Of Presbytery, etc. With Reason's discussing this pretended DIVINE- RIGHT. FIrst, They who are the Presbyters in this present Presbytery, pretend to be Presbyters by a power of Ordination from Bishops, as the Bishops were Presbyters: and if so, they are to make it appear, that there is a true personal succession of Ministry from the Apostles, and that they do lineally succeed without interruption; for in succession, unless there be a certain, perpetual, and personal derivation of power, there can be no certainty, nor infallibility of the truth of such a power; and whether the proof of this draws not with it a necessary and perpetual visibility of a Church, (contrary to the opinion of all the Reformed Divines;) and further, a truth of Church-Ministery, and Ordinances of Jesus Christ. in the Antichristian State, from whence this Ministry of theirs comes, by which they stand present Presbyters, and how any true Ministry can be found in that very Antichristian State, which is called the man of sin, the mystery of iniquity, the Whore of Babylon, the falling away; and how the same State can be both merely Antichristian and Christian, a Whore of Babylon, and a Spouse of jesus Christ, a Ministry of God, and a mystery of iniquity, a Temple of God and of Idols; I leave it to be judged. 2. That these present pretended-Presbyters cannot be found true Presbyters but by such a personal and successively derived power, will appear, from their present Model of Ordination; they allowing and accounting none for Presbyters or Ministers, but such as are sent out by their personal Ordination, or were formerly ordained by Bishops; so as they make these, and these must make others; and thus their power is derived from a personal and lineal succession, and demonstratively proved from their own practice: nor will it help them that jesus Christ always had a Church, or some invisible Saints under Antichrist because they must both prove themselves and the Episcopal Ministry to succeed that very Church, or those very invisible Saints; and that, that Church or those very Saints, were Presbyters or Ministers; for we know men may be Saints, but not sent, or ministerially Saints sent; good men, but not good Presbyters, as in their own way of practice will more appear: for if any should now call himself a true Presbyter or Minister, he must prove his sending to them by a personal Ordination; which proof of their Ordination we demand from them, as they would do now from any others. 3. How these things can stand together. That the Divine Right is in See their humble Advice. the congregational Presbytery, as they acknowledge; and yet that there is a Classical, Provincial, and national Presbytery, which are but prudential and humane, or mixed Judicatures, according to such a distinction; and yet are allowed by them a Power Supreme and coercive to the Divine Right of the congregational Presbytery, which is the first and immediate subject of the Divine Right of Presbytery, as they themselves acknowledge. And now whether do not their own principles control See in their Humble advice, etc. to the Parl. Manus. page 4. that pretended Divine Right they plead for and set up, a Presbytery of Charity and Prudence, over the Presbytery in the particular Congregation, which they say is only of Divine Right? 4. How can that Presbytery whose constitution is so questionable, challenge such a Divine Right? As first, their Presbyters, or first constituting Principles, are ordained by a questionable power, viz. that of Bishops. Their Ruling-Elders by a power as questionable, viz. by a Rule or Ordinance of Parliament; prudential for trial▪ for election, because of the general corruption in this Kingdom, both in Ministers and people; not by that very Apostolical Scripture-Rule or Institution of Jesus Christ. Their Congregations Parishional, and of politic constitution; not congregational, according to Scripture. Their way of constituting this present Presbytery extraordinary, by such an Assembly, without precept or example for such a Way in the whole New Testament, from whence the whole Order of that dispensation ought to be framed, and not from the Law, or Old Testament, or See the humble Advice, etc. of the Assembly in manus. some cases of necessity in the State or Church of Israel by way of Analogy, as they say in their Model to the Parliament. The Primitive Elders and Apostles were qualified immediately from the Spirit with gifts proper to such a Ministration; which these Presbyters and Elders being not, but most by gifts, and habits of Art and Science acquired by industry; therefore these present Presbyters cannot challenge the same power for Church-Censures, without the same Spirit gifting them, and anointing them to such a power and administration in the Church; but aught to be content merely with a mixed and partly prudential power, because of the mixture of their anointing and gifts, if they will needs have such a Government set up for Christ's, which is not all Christ's, and most of that all very questionable whether of Christ or no. For all their proofs alleged from Scripture for the Presbytery by Divine Right▪ or of such Presbyters as were ordained either by Christ himself, as the Apostles; or by a power from the Apostles, or from such who in that power received from the Apostles, did ordain, or by a power in the Church or Congregation preceding such a power, and accompanying such a power: Now this present Presbytery can neither make itself appear to be so purely ordained, nor have they the Church or congregational power so preceding or accompanying such an Ordination; nor is that act of Imposition of hands by which their present Presbyters stand Ministers, a mere sign of setting apart, or merely significative, but an Institution for gifts to be conferred: under the Law, it was an empty and bare Rite; but under the Gospel, it cannot be proved to be such an empty Rite; Gospell-signes being but few full, and ministerial to the spirit; not merely significatively-visible, as the Institutions and Rites under the Law were. So as all being thus questionable still in this present Presbytery; how can they so Apostolically challenge such a Divine Right, their present constitutions being mixed, questionable, fallible, not one and the same with that primitive, pure, certain constitutions and practices? Whereas it appears in their Scripture-proofs, that both in Jerusalem, Ephesus, Crete, etc. the Presbyters and Elders did constitute, etc. and were most consulted with, and advised; and therefore they assume the same power, and so force out rather than prove out their frame of their present Presbytery from such practices: I desire the Brethren to tell us whether the Word of the Gospel was then wholly in Scripture or writing, but partly in the Spirit and gifts or teaching: and therefore the Eldership of the Churches than were so gifted, as to direct, constitute, advise; and from the ministration of gifts in the Eldership, etc. the Institutions, forms and Rules were given out into Scripture or writing; which Scripture or written Word is now in the place of that infallible Primitive Eldership: and therefore for any Presbytery or Eldership to assume now such a power as the first did, they do not only without warrant substitute themselves to such a Presbytery or Eldership, which stood by another anointing or spirit of gifts than themselves do; but they sit down in the throne with the very Scripture or written Word of God, casting a shadow upon the glory and infallibility of that Word, by that present authority and power which they now challenge in the interpretation of that Word in their Presbytery, because by such a sure and certain power as Divine Right allows them, they having not a sure and infallible Spirit for Church-censures, or the execution of such a power, may put forth a certain, sure, executive power, by an uncertain, unsure, and fallible spirit. And so how proportionable a power of Divine Right, is with a Spirit not purely Divine; and how proportionable a power of Church-censures acted by a gift not purely the Spirit's, but rather the Universities and Schools; and to join such an Eldership so with the infallible Word or Scripture, which for want of that primitive or pure anointing by gifts, shall control the pure Word of Truth, by an Interpretation less than Truth, I leave to all the world of believers to judge. How such a visible power and Judge as a national Assembly of such a Presbytery, can be set up, which must judge all the Churches and Congregations of Christ, all the Magistracy and State-power in the Kingdom, they assuming to themselves a spirit of judging and discerning of sins: And whether by this power the Parliament of England shall not fall under the See in their last Petition. cognisance, interpretation, and censure of such an Assembly, for some sins which they as a Civil power may commit, especially dealing in Ecclesiastical causes: And then how far such a national Assembly may manage such crimes to the heightening of their own interest, and to the troubling the interest of the State amongst the people, I let all judge, who know how the same visible Ecclesiastical Judge is condemned by all the Reformed Kingdoms under another notion, viz. of the Antichrist, and Pope, and Counsels: And how that Antichristian power and Judge in Ecclesiasticals hath troubled this and other Kingdoms to the imbroiling them by excommunications into Wars and commotions (as in our Histories, etc.) and hath at length taken up other weapons than the Word to make good their Ecclesiastical censures and interests. And whether this visible form of Classical, Provincial, national, Ecumenical, be any other than the like Papal, Episcopal power, differing only in form, in consistorial, Provincial, national, Ecumenical Counsels and Synods, the like spirit of Dominion, ruling, conventing, excommunicating in each. Objection. But how will you do to satisfy Parliament, Presbyterials, and other dissenting Brethren? Answ. Not that I will determine, but propound for the Parliament: It appears that the State-conscience according to the present corrupt constitution both of Ministers, and Elders, and People of this Kingdom, cannot yield a Divine Right to a Presbytery so constituted; and therefore they are not to be forced to the judgement of the present Assembly, no more than the Assembly do desire to be forced themselves to their judgement; and therefore each is to enjoy their liberty in the Lord as they are persuaded. The State is to enjoy their liberty in their judgement of no Divine Right in this present Presbytery. The Assembly may enjoy theirs, in their judgement of a pretended Divine Right or Presbytery in all Congregations, which will conscientiously practise with them, not seeking to make the State subservient to them by their Civil power, which no Scripture practice will warrant from any Eldership or Presbytery there: and thus the French Churches enjoy the Presbytery at this day, having no Civil power to help them. And the other dissenting Brethren may enjoy their Divine Right too, being as fully persuaded from Scripture of theirs as the other are of theirs, and equally live under the same liberty, and not trouble the State with any thing but their prayers and obedience. Objection. But the Brethren of the Assembly expect the Parliament should join with their results. Answ. I know not why they should expect that, for they are no more infallibly gifted then their Brethren, that they should expect more from the State than they. Their Ministry is as questionable. Their Interests are more in the world than the Interests of the first Presbyters were, as in their maintenance by Tithes, and in their power of Classical, Provincial, national, the Kingdom being thus corrupted, and in that subserviency and power of compulsion, they demand of the Magistrate, and Princes of the world. And why our dissenting Brethren may not with as much justice, honour, conscience, desire the State to settle such a gospel-order as they believe to be true; the other being no more enabled to demand of the State any power for imposing their conclusions true by a power of the States own giving by Ordinance: And whether the State seeing no infallibility of spirit in any of all sides, since what the Truth which they hold bring in its own evidence and demonstration before them, aught to be pressed▪ as bound to one by any Interest more than to another▪ save that of Truth, I leave to be considered; and then, what reason the Brethren have thus to press their supposed Divine Right, I desire to know. Objection. Whether is this to settle things according to Covenant? Answ. Yea, The Covenant binds us to Uniformity; but then, that clause According to the Word of God doth restrain the Uniformity to the light which each Kingdom sees by according to that Word; and therefore our Brethren of Scotland see Presbytery in one degree, the Hollanders in another, and the French in another, and at this time England in another; and yet all should be one in that clause of the Covenant, viz. to defend each other in their degrees of Reformation against the common enemy; We Scotland, and Scotland us; and what a comely thing it is for Brethren to dwell together in Unity, though they cannot in Uniformity! The Last Petition of the Assembly, for Divine Right in their present Presbytery, with Inferences upon it. Petition. THat the Provisions of Commissioners to judge the scandals not numerated, appears to our consciences to be so contrary to that way of Government which Christ hath appointed in his Church. Inference. Whence we may infer, that the Assembly do suppose the Parliament and Commissioners to be far below the Ministers and Eldership in spiritual gifts and discerning, which I suppose cannot be well presumed, considering the Assembly and Eldership now is not anointed with that pure spirit and gifts as the first were; but with habits of Arts and Sciences, and with some measure of the Spirit, which many both of the Parliament and Commissioners both may be, and are enabled with as well as they; and whether is not this to set up the old distinstion of Layty and Clergy, and to set the present Eldership and Presbytery upon a higher Form than the Magistrate? seeing the gifts are not so distinct as at first, why should the Offices be so distinct? Petition. In that it giveth a power to judge of the fitness of Persons. Inference. Whence we may infer, that they presume themselves to be that very Ministry and Eldership of Jesus Christ, though both their Ministry is by Bishops, and their Elders by a prudential constitution and election at this present; and may not the Magistrate, who is unquestionably the power of God, Rom. 13. appointed to be Judge of good and evil; more lawfully judge o● sins and Gospell-Rules, than they who are a questionable Ministry and Eldership in this present Presbytery? Petition. And to be so differing from all examples of the best Reformed Churches, and such a real kinderance to the bringing the Churches of God in the three Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity, and in all those respects so disagreeable to our Covenant. Inference. Whence we may infer, that if all do not believe as one believe, it is pretended that all are in breach of Covenant; and thus the Covenant is made a snare by interpretation, and principles of spiritual compulsion employed in the Covenant, contrary to the Spirits wisdom who both allows and advises the several statures and measures of light, the weak and strong: and whether the Communion by unity is not a glorious supplement to the Rent of Uniformity, that of Unity being in the Spirit, that of Uniformity in the Letter; and why should our Brethren thus bring down the State and Kingdom more to other Reformed Kingdoms, or not rather raise up the other Reformed Kingdoms to this? and if any thing be revealed more to this Kingdom, that hath sit by this long time, why should not the other hold their peace, and believing Kingdoms as Believers walk one with another so far as they have attained? and wherein they have not, the Lord shall reveal even this unto them; not but that this Kingdom ought to form itself into any Communion with the rest, so far as their Communion excels, and so the other into Communion with this so far as this excels, and both so far to one another, as they are persuaded, not compelled, which are no Arguments for Faith but Formality. Petition. Do humbly pray that the several Elderships may be sufficiently enabled. Inference. Whence we may infer, that their whole endeavour is to raise up the Interest of the Eldership and Presbytery into a distinct, sole, and Independent body and power, which how conformable, and obedient, and consistent it may prove to and with the power of the State in one and the same Kingdom, would be considered, when such an Interest grow●s up from its infancy and first Reformation, into a fuller and more perfect man: And whether their petitioning of a power from the State to complete and make them an Eldership and Presbytery, doth not imply a power in the State more or rather as fully Ecclesiastical as their Presbytery; for can the State give them any Ecclesiastical power, and have none itself; so as according to these Principles the State is Ecclesiastical as well as they, and so not to be denied the power of Commissioning with them: or else 'tis a mere contradiction to pray for power from those to their Eldership and Presbytery, which they say is a Government and Power entirely Ecclesiastical and complete in itself; and so, as they either pray for that which they have of their own already, or else pray for that from the State which they cannot give them. Petition. It belongs unto them by Divine Right, and by the Will and appointment of Jesus Christ; which with the help of superior Assemblies in cases of appeal, or in all administrations therein, will prevent (through the blessing of God all the feared inconveniences. Inference. Whence we may infer, that the Presbytery and Eldership of a Congregation is of Divine Right, etc. yet that Divine Right is perfected and completed by that which is not of as pure Divine Right as itself, viz. Superior Assemblies; and so becomes neither purely prudential, nor Divine, but Mixed▪ and so is neither good Divine, nor good Humane Right. Petition. And the Magistrate to whom we profess the Church to be accountable for their proceedings in all their Elderships and Church Assemblies, and punishable by him with Civil censures for their miscarriages. Inference. Whence we may infer, that the Civil Magistrate is neither over nor under the Presbytery, and where they place it, who can tell by this Petition of theirs? for over it the Magistrate is not; for they say Commissioners over them are not sufferable; and under it they say the Magistrate is not, for their Eldership and Presbytery are to be accountable to the Civil power for their miscarriages; and how at the same time they should subject their Churches in their mal Administrations to the Magistrates power of judging and yet challenge such an entire, sole, supreme and Ecclesiastical Judicature, is a mystery becoming the learning of that same Assembly to reveal which first begun it. Principles against the Divine Right o● 〈…〉 present Presbytery extracted from the Reasons. 1. THey are no such Presbyters of Jesus Christ as the first were, because ordained by an Antichristian power of Bishops; nor were Bishops true Presbyteres, nor those who joined with them in their Ordination who were made by them, nor is there any succession of Ordination, but it implies both a Perpetual Visible Church, and a true Church Ministry and Ordinances under Antichrist, which all are to be proved by them. 2. If there were any such true Church invisible under Antichrist, to which they succeed in their Ministry, than it must appear that they succeed that very invisible Church, and that that very invisible Church had a true Ministry or Presbytery in it; for men may be Saints, or good men, yet not good Presbyters, or Ministerially sent. 3. As they now in their practice will not account any for true Presbyters but such who can prove to them their personal Ordination from them, so we demand of these Presbyters an account of their personal succession accordingly, which personal succession if it be false and interrupted any where in the Line, must needs be all false, from such a point where the first interruption was made. 4. Though Christ's promise is enough to ground a perpetuity of Church and Christ's presence, yet not of his promise made good to such particular men, or to their pretended succession. 5. They that challenge a Divine Right to the power they act by, must act by a gift as Divine and infallible as their right and power, and thus did the primitive Presbyters and Elders; therefore the gift being but mixed, their right or power is but mixed accordingly, and not Divine. 6. They who were Elders or Presbyters in the first Churches, as jerusalem, etc. were gifted by a spirit which taught the very infallible Word which is now written or Scripture, and so they then did constitute, advise, counsel in the place of this written Word; and all Scripture Forms and Institutions were then in the gift, and persons; but no such thing can be said of any Eldership or Presbytery of men now. 7. They who set up an Eldership or Presbytery now of Divine Right, to constitute, ordain, counsel, etc. do join to the Word written, or infallible Scripture, a Power less infallibly gifted, who by such a Divine Right and Power pretended, shall control the Word of Truth, by Interpretations of that Word less than Truth, which is not consistent with the glory of the Word. 8. There is no Eldership or Presbytery in Scripture, but either the Church's Act did precede it, act it, or accompany it, by precept or practice, which makes the Divine Right of the Presbytery questionable, uncertain, unsafe, because of a contrary Scripture, and Precept. 9 The Eldership and Presbytery which are brought for instances, are questionable; first for the Persons, who were not such very Presbyters as they would imply, but Apostles, Evangelists, etc. or otherwise ordained, either by Apostles or Church, or otherwise gifted by special unction, or else an Eldership of eminency, not of Office. 10. They hold this Divine Right is in the first subject in the congregational Presbytery, and yet they set up a Classical, Provincial, national Presbytery to complete and control this of the congregational, and how this their Divine Right can be subjected thus to a Right less Divine, is unreasonable, and unscriptural to imagine. 11. Suppose such a power as a national Presbytery collected from all parts of the Kingdom, every Congregation having an Interest, or part there, and this Presbytery so national and Collective informed by a Divine Right, for judging sins, etc. shall not this national Presbytery take cognizance of States, if sinning, Ecclesiastically as well as others? and if so, what proceeding, what censures will follow from such a body as universal as the body of that State, and of as much Interest in the Kingdom as they, and of more interest, by how much more Divine a Right they act by, and by how much nearer they are seated to the conscience, and how Kingdoms have been embroiled by such an Ecclesiastical Interest, Histories will tell ye? 12. So as in this strait when Parliament is persuaded of no Divine Right, Assembly of a Divine Right, and the Dissenting brethren of another Divine Right; is not the way this, to let the Parliament have their Liberty of Conscience, to settle no Divine Right, by a power, and the Assembly to use their Liberty in a Divine Right, with all that will peaceably join with them in the Kingdom under that Power, and not to trouble the Magistrate further; and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right, as the Brethren of the Presbyterial way theirs, and all alike under the same Civil Power, and neither of them with it, and all other Reformed Kingdoms, in unity of the Spirit, and love, to one another? Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences. 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office, but the Magistrate may rule with them. THe Eldership, and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations; but now as the anointing is not so, nor is the Office pure, peculiar, and distinct; the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spiritual as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery, and may therefore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations, as they, unless their Churches, Officers, and Gifts, were more Christ's then they are. 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery. The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God, and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices, Gifts etc. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin than they. 3. Uniformity in the Word of God is the Uniformity of Church●●. They that press the Covenant for Uniformity so penally as they do, make it a snare of compulsion, not in the Word of it, but in their Interpretation of that Word; unity in the Spirit, makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter; Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Uniformity in Laws Ecclesiastical then in Civil, but may walk together as Believers so far as they have attained; that clause according to the Word of God, makes room for the several statures of Christ, and measures of light in the Covenant, and they that agree in that are truly Uniform, for it is the Uniformity with the Word, not with one another, but so far as we are all alike in that Word, which is the very Uniformity of the Kingdom of Christ. 4. The Magistrate as they now make him, is Ecclesiastical as well as they. They that ascribe a Power to any to complete and actuate them in their Ministration, do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so inform and complete them; so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery, doth imply a Presbyterial and Ecclesiastical Power in that State; and if so, the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church, as any ruling Officer they have. 5. The present Presbytery in mystery, both over and under the Magistrate. They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery, tell me in what sphere or where rule they? for over it, they are not▪ Commissioners See Petition. they say are contrary to the Word; and under it, they are not, for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto ●●▪ so as they who are so much in the dark▪ with their Government, do with Magistracy they know not what, and would place it they know not where. The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate than the Erastian, and how the Presbyterial Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them, according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery. THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them, because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in gospel-order, but a Kingdom of Believers in general, and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to gospel-order; and till both this national Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ, and those very Officers of Christ, the Magistrate may as lawfully, yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer, Minister, or Elder amongst them; for Magistrates have the whole Kingdom of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government: And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Believers, not a Church, they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them; Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own, and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds, or less his own: so as the Presbyterial Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church, Ministers and Elders, nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church, Ministry, and Eldership; for all Scripture proofs of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership; according to Truth, not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations; so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved ●●ue, no Scripture either alleged for Presbytery belongs to them, nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate, as from the Church of Christ. Conclusion. These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature, which is of high concernment in the things of gospel-order, as any point now abroad; for surely it is not a University, a Cambridge or Oxford, a Pulpii and Black gown or Cloak, makes one a true Minister of jesus Christ, though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificial unction for that true one of the Spirit; and the Ministry hath been so clothed with Art and Habit, that if the Apostles should live again, and preach in that plainness they came, they would be as despised; for we wonder after the Wise, the Scribe, and the Disputer of this World. FINIS. An End of ONE CONTROVERSY BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOK; called, LIGHT FOR SMOKE. One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER: Which he writ lately against me. In which the Sum of his last Book, which relates to the most material Passages in it, is gathered up and replied to. By john Saltmarsh, not revolted (as Master Ley saith) from a Pastoral Calling; but departed from the Antichristian Ministry by Bishops, and now a Preacher of the Gospel. Isa. 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darkness for light. Acts 19 32. Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the Assembly was confused, and the most part knew not wherefore they were come together. Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this, he dismissed the Assembly. LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAUL'S. 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speak fairly in his own just defence, and the Law of Grace requiring him to speak zealously in the defence of Truth, I think it equal that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed. April 15. 1646. John Bachiler. The LETTER. SIR, FOr the Controversy in substance betwixt us, I cannot think the Truth I defended, so weak as to need a new Treatise to bear it up. I see it is otherwise with you, who dare not let your former Books stand by themselves, without another to support them. It is indeed the way of the Popish Schools to fill the world with Volumes and Tomes, and rather to astonish then convince: and this is one thing which hath made the world wonder after the Beast. There is no end in making many Books. How hath Eccles▪ 12. 12. Truth been carried out of sight from the Reader in the Labyrinth of Replies and Rejoinders. Yourself gives us an Experiment in this Book: for, how are you puzzled to let the Reader know what was yours, and what was mine at first, and what is yours again, and what was mine afterwards, and what is yours again in answer to mine, and what Truth is after all this. I find it to be the wisdom of the Spirit of God, to leave the world a sufficiency of Scripture and Truth; but not to write all, list the world should not contain it. And Pilate was not amiss in that: john 21▪ 25. What I have written, (sates he) I have written, when they desired him to write more. So as things being thus, I hope I shall write you as much, if not more, in One Sheet and an half, as you have writ me in Seve●teen: for he that writes anything of Truth, more properly writes much, than he that writes against it, though in more Paper. The Sum of your Book is this: 1. YOur Epistles, which are a competent Treatise of themselves, and the very Cistern of your reasoning, from whence you fill all the other Pages of your Book. 2. The parrs of my Treatise, with your Answer, or rather much of your former reply, which in things of most weight is no refutation, but a reference to other Divines, who have writ of the like subject, etc. it seems you have a common stock of learning amongst you, or a Argumentative Treasury, to which you refer us with much ease; but I cannot take this for good payment, to be put over to another man, when you are bound to pay me yourself: I could turn you over thus to as able Divines, as you do me, to Mr Tho. Goodwin, Mr Burton, Mr john Goodwin, Mr Nye, Mr Tombs, Mr Pr●●●, Mr Burrough, Mr White, Mr Eator, Mr Den, Mr Knolls, etc. 3. The Appendix to your Book writ by a Master of Arts, whether your friend, or yourself, for I know not whom you make the two letters C. D. to stand for; who brings in testimonials of your abilities, learning, piety, good carriage, worth, etc. who methinks speaking so much to your praise as he doth, stands a little too near you; we should not seek glory one of another, our praise should be of God, not of men. Thus I have contracted you, to save you some evil in the multitude of your words, now to your matter. (1) THat they should counsel me, not to cry down the Government. (2) That In Epistles to Sir William S●rickland and M. Gr●●●sto●, and in Epist, to myself. no Presbytery Parochial▪ etc. assumes such power as the Prelatical. (3) That if the question were rightly stated, men would be convinced, Magistracy and Christian Liberty would be preserved. (4) That I should restore such Tithes, if unlawful, as I formerly received, because the sin till then is not remitted. (5) That I would have men believe as they list. (6) That he was wished rather to a neglect of me, then allowed conquest over me. (7) That he had rather consute Bellarmine, than my new-sprung Notions. (8) Because I am against Logic and Forms of Art, I am no right Disputant. (9) That I am an Ubiquitary in my Belief, because of the Opinions set down in The Smoke, etc. (10) That I am an Antinomian, and deals with some late Divines, as some with Luther. (11) That I am unstable. (12) That I glory in the quick dispatch of my work: To which Tertullian, and some old Poetry, and other Authors, with a Story of a Nobleman and a Brewer, is brought. (13) That my Interposition is like to be no delay to the Government. (14) That he may be better employed then in writing: and others shall undertake me. To the first. 1. ARe you in such fears of your Government, that you make friends to me to be silent? Is it so weak, that it may be cried down? To the 2. Is Presbytery, because Parochial, Classical, Provincial. less Tyrannical than Episcopal, because many rule in that, and in this but one? or rather not more Tyrannical, because one Tyrant is not so much as many together? Evil in a Community, is stronger & more diffusive then in Unity. To the 3. Is not the Question of the Presbytery yet stated? Yea surely? What else hath your Assembly and others been doing? Is it not a power in your Eldership and Presbytery, how little or large soever, over the Churches and Congregations? Independent upon the Magistrate, coercive to all that believe not as they believe, as to Heretics and Schismatics? And yet men are not convinced, nor is Magistracy or Christian liberty so preserved as you say: let both the Magistrates and Christians judge, who in the mean time you would be judges over. To the 4. For my restoring of Tithes, now unlawful to me; I have done it; I have returned to the State my property of a full years Arrearage: nor did I take Tithes since I was in Kent, but the people's free composition from the first, and being even convinced against that too, a year since, I forbore it. But take heed how you put forgiveness of sin upon restitution; for that is not only Popery, but like the Pope you would sell Pardons only to the rich, and none to the poor; and you would put more upon Sacrifice then upon Mercy. To the 5. Nor would I have men believe as they list, as you say of me: I would only not have men forced to believe as others list, as you or your Brethren list: I would have Faith wrought by the Spirit of God, not by the spirits of men, who have no Dominion over Faith. To the 6. And why do you speak so of a loud Conquest over me? Truth is not conquered, when the man is trampled on. It is not your being great, can make you a Conqueror, no more than your calling by the Bishops a true Presbyter. To the 7. And for your desire rather to deal with Bellarmine then me: I did not think I had been so formidable an enemy; but I will not presume. Indeed, Bellarmine is a more easy adversary, because he opposes the Truth; and I, though a weak one, may be more considerable, because Truth defends me, rather than I the Truth: for I will rather make it my Champion, than myself a Champion for it. And for my new-sprung Notions (as you say) call Truth Notion, or new, or what you will; you can never call it out of its own nature or essence: And Truth is Gods own Notion; neither mine nor yours: and new only to the old man, not to him who after God is created in Epli. 4. 4. righteousness and true holiness. To the 8. Nor am Ilesse a Disputant in Divinity, because against Forms of Art and Logic (as you say) I may dispute in Christ's School, though refused in the School of Tyrannus. And if you will challenge me in any point of Philosophy, I shall not refuse you there in Logic or Forms of Art. They are Forms only for the wisdom of men, not the wisdom of God. Nor dare I take my discoveries of Christ from Reason, nor seek the glory of him in Forms so much below him, and fashion the Creator like to the Creature, who is God blessed for ever. You and I must die more to vain Philosophy, to the wisdom of the Greek, to the rudiments of the world. I allow Learning its place any where in the kingdoms of the world, but not in the Kingdom of God. To the 9 For my being a Ubiquitary (as you say) in belief, and your proof of this from the several Opinions stated in my Book: Can you be so unfaithful to that Book? Can you, who would be counted an Orthodox, and a Divine, thus force and compel those Opinions upon me, or not rather upon the Paper only where they were printed? Because I stated the Opinions of man, am I therefore a man of all those Opinions? The best is, the world may convince you of this, and of my purpose in that: And now you are thus unfaithful in a little, I may suspect you for more. Are you one of those who pretend to be in the Mount with God, and to give Laws for Religion? Can we trust you in the more excellent mysteries of the Father, while you trifie thus, and deceive the Brethren? To the 10. For my being an Antinomian, If to say we serve not in the oldness of the Letter, but in the newness of the Spirit: If to say, The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ: If to say. We are not under the Law, but under Grace: If to say, We are delivered from our enemies, that we might serve him without fear●, in holiness, and righteousness: If to say, The Commandment is holy qust, and good: If to say, Shall we sin that Grace may abound? God forbid: If this be Antinomianism, I am one of that sort of Antinomians, I know no other for my part, though you have filled the world with a noise, if this be Heresy, so worship we the God of our Fathers; nor have I misquoted any, but only singled out that truth from many, in one leaf, before they spoiled it in the next, and like Pilate, who ask only what truth was, would not tarry by it, but departed. To the 11. And for my unstableness: If to be sometimes darkness, and now light in the Lord: If to put off the old man with the former lusts, and to put on the new: If to come out of Babylon when the Spirit calls: If to add to faith, virtue; to virtue, patience; to patience, godliness, etc. If to grow in the increasings of God, to a fullness of stature in Christ: If leaving things that are behind, and pressing to things that are before, be unstableness, let me be always thus changing, till he who can only change our vile bodies, fashion me like unto his glorious body. To the 12. Nor do I glory I hope in the quick dispatch of what I do: but do not you as well over deliberate, as I over dispatch and glory in that? But are you no better acquainted with the Spirit, in the things of God? Are we to be ever consulting with flish and blood? did the Disciples and Brethren when they spoke the Word of God, tug first amongst so many Schoolmen? so many Fathers? so many modern Divines? so many Commentators? so many old Poets as you do? Or rather, only with the Word and Spirit, and power of Christ: and for that of your Poetry, and your Brewer, I desire not to show so much of the old-man, or former corruption, as to sparkle so lightly with you. To the 13. For my Interposing, being no delay to the Government (as you ●ist. p. 1. say) Why do you say then in other places, I presented you with a former Book, against M. Saltmarsh his Remora: And again, Mr Saltmarshs Quaere, to retard the establishment? I pray now, be friends first with yourself, before you be too much an enemy to the truth, or to me; and though I cannot stand in the way of the establishment; I am the least in my Father's house; I am but as the fli● upon the wheel; yet truth is mighty, and of that power, as it can weigh heavy upon your Chariot-wheels, when you would be driving into the red Sea of persecution, and pursuing Israel. To the 14. Whereas you say you are wished to be better employed then in writing, they are your friends indeed that wish so, you cannot be worse employed I am sure, then in speaking ill of your brethren, in advancing yourselves, in Lordino it over the heritage, in triumphing upon the vantage ground of your place, and power; in supplicating, and at the same time judging the Magistrate; or in a word, entreating them that they may rule, not you, or your Presbytery, but whom you allow them from your Presbytery. And for others undertaking me, as many as please, for I fear not an host, nor a multitude of penmen; I see more for us then against us, I know this present Presbytery may have many pensioners; there are such great livings of hundreds a years to spice the Government; the silver shrines had many that cried great was Diana in the Ephesians. Master Leys Treatise. 1. THe subordination of Assemblies is made good by the learned Book of Mr Rutherford against the congregational Independency. 2. The subordinate Presbyteries are not Churches out of Churches, as yours Pag. 12. are, not in such singularity, with free choice, more conveniencies in Parishes, more for preservation of Peace, more agreeable to the Apostles, Acts 15. more authorized Pag. 13. by Parliament. That tithes are spoken against by those that scruple not at slander or sacriledeg, Pag. 19 20. that they usurp upon God and his Ministers that alienate them from his Worship and Service. That Old men are more honourable than the Young, therefore called Senators, Pag, 25, 26. Elders, Sages; that Dreams are more glorious than Visions, because of more Communion with God in the sleep, then waking, and because of many Divine things revealed in dreams, and that John was old when he had his vision. That it is lawful to jest at mis-application of Scripture by God's example in Pag. 40. Gen. by Eliahs by others, etc. That the other Church-Government comes not under such trials of the Pag. 54. Parliament, as Presbytery, but is set up without their authority. That Gospell-patternes are as much in the Letter, as the Legal, because Pag. 62. written. That Mr. Prinn, Dr. Bastwick, Mr Burton, Mr Lilburne were cruelly Pag. 82. used by the Bishops. Mr Lilburne whipped from Fleet-Bridge to Westminster, so cruelly, that the cords bruised his shoulders, and made them swell as big as a penny ●oase; and the Warden made him be gagged, as if he would tear his jaws. Answer. THat the gradual subordination is made good by Mr Rutherford, etc. Is this reasoning or reference? And this you have done all along, referred to 9 us either to yourself, or some other to answer for you. That your Presbyteries are not so singular, more free, convenient, more to 21. peaceable, more Apostolical, more Authorized than other Churches: These are good commendations; but had half so much been proved by the Word, your Government had passed before this. For that of Sacrilege, and usurpation upon God in alienating Tithes; never did Prelate, no nor Bishop Montague plead an higher title for 3. tithes. What sacrilege and usurpation to deny Tithes? Where are you? in the Covenant, or no? is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by? and will you set up a Divine Right over that now? surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for Tithes, and leave you to your Divine Right, and see what the people will pay you. To that of your commending old men and age; I reverence age, and old 4. men, but not the old man in them. And for dreams being more excellent than visions; It is a curious speculation, and enough may be said for both; yet if you take Visions more spiritually, they are a more glorious way of Revelation Acts 2. then that of dreams: but what are these dreams to yours? Surely Reformation in blood, or by persecution, is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacy. Why are you so much in the defence of jesting and so serious in your 5. Scripture proofs for it? take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture; God and Eliah saw errors more clearly than you or I, who may assoon laugh at the Scripture itself, as something beside it. And for other Church-Governments not coming under the trial of 6. Parliament, nor coming out by their authority, I know not any that would not humbly lay down their Scripture-order to that honourable Senate, and rejoice that they would take it up to discuss, and for not coming out under their authority; I know none of the rest so ambitious or troublesome to the Magistrate, as to solicit them to compel their order upon all their Brethren, and all must be Heretics and Schismatics that will not though they cannot believe so For Gospell-patterns being as much in the letter as the Legal, because written, are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament? Know you not that the Temple or Legal Worship before was said to be in the Oldness of the Letter? Know you not that Gospell-patternes are more seen by the Spirit now, then before? and though both be written, and in Letter, yet not both equally literal, but the one more glorious in the ministration, the other less. For that of the sufferer●, Mr Prynn, Mr Burton, Mr Lilburne, and Mr Bestwick; And Mr Lilbourne written in such capital Letters of bl●●●d, as you justly say; and can you name these, and call for the power in your hands as you do? Can you thus remember Prelates, and yet petition to be such Presbyters? Can you see these yet bleeding, and desire to persecute by such a Precedent of Blood? FOr Salmasius his testimony, with the Baptism in the name of the Lord jesus Christ: and his testimony that the Presbyter● is but of humane and positive right, not of Divine; He is mine, and not yours, and all you● pains and quarrelling, and after quotations cannot make him more yours, or less mine. and it is no little disadvantage to you, that one so great a Scholar, as your whole Assembly affords any, hath thus witnessed with the truth, which so many Scholars oppose. C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book, in Master Ley's Commendation: whether made by himself, or some other, he best knows. HIs Title is, One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Pag. 4. And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren. He was chosen Chair man of the Committée of examination of Ministers, and of the Committée of Printing; and one of the Tryers, and one of the Ordainers of Ministers; next after the two Doctors, Chaire-man. [I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles. You might have known him by his Pattern of Piety, his Book on the Sabbath; by divers Sermons of his ●● Print, his Annotations on the Pentateuch: and he hath much more prepared for the Press than is already printed: All which are approved by those most able to judge of judicious and learned Labour. [Give them leave to speak themselves in this point. The Greek Anagram made on his name when Precedent of Zion College; THE SUN IN ZION; with Verses. [If the Sun be there, why no more Light there then? For his Name, you would think it too venerable, etc. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace; and Ley in Spanish, the Law. With some Letters in his Commendation, in pag. 19, 20. etc. THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concerns you materially, and your friend printed on the backside of yours: And for other particulars more substantial, your Books and mine are both abroad; let them speak for themselves: the Readers must now judge in the Spirit, what we both write in the Letter; for I intent not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversy. Some Truth may be seen: and what is more, is but you and I. SIR, I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world: but since you printed them once over in mistake, I thought I might print them over in a clearer letter, that you may see things for Errors, which before you took for Truths. Conclusion. THus I have replied to your Positions, not to your passions nor reproaches; in which you are something larger than I had thought becomes an Orthodex Divine. And for the dirt you cast in my face, I have only wiped it off, without casting it back on yours: I had rather let it fall in the Channel, which best becomes it. For your Revile, sleightings and rail, if they trouble not yourself to write, the Press to print, and the Reader to read, I promise you they trouble not me. And though I am much below many, yet I am in this above you, that I can forgive you, by how much he that can pardon, is greater than he that offends. I thank you for your ill usage: you cannot do that against me which works not for my good; for I am learning to bless them that curse me, to pray for them that despitefully use me. And truly this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not, To tax myself of the many other faults which I have indeed, which you and the world see not. FINIS. REASONS FOR Unity, Peace, and Love, WITH AN ANSWER (Called Shadows flying away) to a Book of Mr Gataker one of the Assembly, entitled, A Mistake, etc. and the Book of the nameless Author, called, The Plea: both writ against me. And a very short ANSWER, in a word, to a Book by another nameless Author, called An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh; and to Master Edward's his Second Part, called Gangrena, directed to me. Wherein many things of the Spirit are discovered, Of Faith and Repentance, etc. Of the Presbytery: And some things are hinted, to the undeceiving of people in their present Ministers. By John Saltmarsh, Preacher of the Gospel. Acts 7. 26. Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? LONDON, Printed for Giles Calvert, at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAUL'S. 1646. Reader, IN this Answer to Master Gataker, I conceive thou hast a taste of the true Notion both of the sweetness and glory of the Gospel. Imprimatur, May 26. 1646. JOHN BACHILER. To the Right Honourable, the Lord Maior, Aldermen, and the Common-council of the City of LONDON. Right Honourable, MAny who call themselves Ministers and Prophets of God, accuse us of Heresy and Schism before ye. But I hope ye will take notice they are but men as we are, and of like passions with us; neither Apostles, nor Prophets of the first Baptism, or gifts of the Spirit. Yet if the Priests and Elders, or any Orator, as Tertullus, accuse Paul to Festus or Agrippa, be cannot but answer for himself. I have but few words to speak to ye (Noble Citizens) That ye would in that Spirit which is of God, judge the Doctrines of Men, and single them from Traditions, Customs, Counsels, Synods, Interests. Ye are bid to try the spirits whether they be of God, or no. Try whether it be according to God, for some Ministers, and those not Apostles, to call others Heretics who believe not as they believe: What will become then of the strong and weak Christian, of the Rome, 15. 1. 1 john 2: 13, 14. children, fathers, and young men? Try whether they ought to preach to ye to suppress all but themselves; since they are not infallible, but may err; and where is the Remedy then, if they err? Who shall judge the judges? Try whether this make for unity of spirit, to allow no more fellowship nor brotherhood then in Horme and practice. And what will they have ye do if Forms should alter? For States may change: England hath done so. Try whether this make for the glory of Christians, to persecute or banish (as they would have ye) all but themselves. May they not as well tell ye that God hath made England only for men of the Presbytery or one opinion to live in, and worship in: And where find they that? Try whether some by their daily Invectives from Press and Pulpit against Independents and others, bring not in the Popish Design in another Form, to divide the godly party, both Presbyterian and Independent, and so to ruin all. Try if all such Doctrine as they commonly preach and write to ye, resolve not itself most into their own interests, profits, place, power: And what doth the Scripture and Histories tell ye of that? And now I have done; praying for ye, That ye may be still a free City, and not disputed by the miscellany of Logic and Divinity of some, into bondage. That ye may be still populous, and not your streets growing with grass through any un neighbourly Principle of Persecution, which must needs lose ye many, and much resort from this famous City, under the name of Heretics, not letting such live beside them. That ye may be a peaceable City, and not raised up and dashed by any breath of men against the other and greater part of yourselves, the Parliament. England hath long enough broken itself against its own walls: let it now be our strength to sit still, and to stand still and see salvation. And since the Lord hath let the most of the success of the Presbytery, which is so much desired, come thorough the hands of those and that Army whom they have told ye over often were Heretics; let this be but taken notice on by ye, what God hath told ye in the success of that Army; and I trust ye will never regard the Messengers by whose hands the Presbytery in a kind came, by beating them out of doors. Thus rests he, Who would rejoice in your Peace, Prosperity, and GOSPELL-unity, JOHN SALTMARSH. REASONS FOR Unity, Peace, & Love. THe Nations and Kingdoms of the world shall bring their glory to Christ, and be at peace with all his, according to the Prophecies, isai. 11 6, 7, 8. Revel. 21. 26. Isai. 49. 23. And how happy is that Nation or Kingdom which shall be first in this truth, and have rather a peace of Prophecy, than Policy, a peace of God, than man. How happy shall this Kingdom be to fulfil any of this Prophecy, of peace to one another, and to the Saints. That all Kingdoms, and Nations, and Princes, and People, prospered according to their love to Christ, and his: Pharaoh for joseph, Ahasuerus for Mordecai, Artaxerxes for Nehemiah and the people of the jews; and those Nations have been ever nations of bondage and tyranny to themselves, which became so first to the Saints. That jerusalem hath been ever a burdensome stone, and a cup of trembling to all that oppressed her, and the stone cut out of the Mountain without hands, too mighty for all the Mountains of the world: And the blood of the Saints, wherever spilt, and where ever found in literal or mystical Babylon, never left crying, till that very place had blood given them to drink for in her was found the blood of the Prophets. That the true Peace indeed, is more spiritual and comprehensive than men usually think it, and takes in several natures, nations, people, languages, of every tongue and kindred; so, several spirits, consciences, judgements, opinions; not a Peace only of such or such an Opinion; not a Peace only of such or such a Society; of such or such a Body; not a Peace of Presbytery only, nor Independency only, nor Anabaptism only, but a Peace of All, so far as that all, or many may be one, which is that unity of spirit in the bond of peace. That true Peace is an enemy to all selfish interest, and selfish preservation, and selfish unity, or selfish peace; because that when Uinity, Peace, Preservation, gathers up from that common interest Peace and Unity, to which they are appointed by the law of Creation, and Institution, and becomes only their own, and not another's, their own peace, their own unity, their own preservation, they breaking that law of the Spirit, and Communion of their first Creation, each perishes in their single, private and unwarrantable way of saving themselves; And the eye saith unto the hand, I have no need of thee, and the head to the foot, I have no need of you. That there is no such impossibility of being one under divers Opinions, as we are made believe, no more than there was for those that eat flesh, and those that eat herbs; for those that regarded a day, and those that regarded it not; for those that used milk, and those that eat stronger meat; for those that were zealous of the Law, and those that were more in the Gospel, to be one, or together, or to please one another to edefication. Did Paul bid the eaters of flesh call the eaters of herbs, heretics? or them that regarded a day, the others that regarded it not, heretics? or them that were zealous of the Law, them that were of the Gospel, Heretics? or thus; Flesh-eaters, and Day-regarders, and Legalists? as we do, Presbyterians, Independents, Anabaptists. That there is so much in every one of these, wherein they appear to stand in need of one another, that the Presbyterian cannot say, I have no need of the Independent; nor the Independent, I have no need of the Presbyterian; nor either of them say, we have no need of you Anabaptist: For, the Presbyterian may need the Independent, because he is for a purer Communion of Saints than he; They both the Anabaptist, because he baptizeth Believers, as the Apostles always did: They both the Seekers, because none of them have these Ordinances by the first pattern in the Word, as by Apostleship and Baptism of Spirit: Nor these the Presbyterians, because there may be some gift, some power of the Spirit, some principle of Administration in them, which may help the Body, and the Commonwealth, or Parliament. All these, because they are all members of the same State. That Love is the more excellent way revealed, then either the way of Gifts, or Ordinances, and therefore no gift or ordinance is to be preferred 1 Gen. 12. 31. 31. 2. before love: Love neither envies, nor vaunts, nor behaves itself unseemly, but beareth all things, and hopeth all things: and this is that love which is of God, and extends itself as God, and comprehends and embraces men; not as this man, or that man, merely; not as a man of this, or that opinion: but because it is love from the fountain of infinite love▪ it flows upon all, and hath a kind of peace with all, and loves all: God is love; and therefore just and unjust good and bad, are taken into something of him, seeing he giveth to all things life and breath, and all things: and the more this love is amongst men, the more they love as God, and the more large in love, and universal in love. That love which is only to one kind, is but low, narrow, and natural, the mere love of creatures as creatures▪ but that love which can love those of other kinds; as Presbyterian, Anabaptist, Independent, is not that love of a creature only: so as the more we love any that are not as we are, the less we love as men, and the more as God. That the first and most glorious and spiritual unity is that of spirit; and therefore things that are outward, formal, and perish with using, nor any Ordinance, were ever made an hindrance to that unity: let not Christians think they cannot be One, nor in any communion of spirit, till they be like one another in the body first, and in the Ordinance first, which it may be they never shall be, for we see God hath hid outward Ordinances deepest from discovery; so as they that find most, find but pieces and parcels, and one one part, and another another part, and another another part, all find not all, because all should not want one another, and we find these things last, because there was less need: how many hundred years from Christ, and nothing of these? yet Christ was known, and some of the more spiritual glory of Christ: and if Christians should not be one, till they be like one another, how little would the peace be? even as little as that unity they contend for: and what peace would it be, but that of flesh and form, the peace of Ordinances, not of Spirit. I desire this may be considered, that according to the first pattern, the Baptism of the Spirit, or Gifts and Ordinances, were together, never asunder, from the Apostles times to the falling away: and let there be a Word held out for Ordinances by themselves without the like Gifts, or else let us be in more unity of Spirit than we are. Christians are truly so alike, and so one and the same, as they are one in Christ in union and spirit, one in God, as they partake of the Divine nature of the Image of Christ, as they are branches in the same Vine, members in the same body: so God loves all his, as they are of him, born of the incorruptible seed, being the glory of the second Adam, quickened by that life, that eternal life: God looks not▪ nor loves not, as men are Presbyterians, or Independents, or Anabaptists, we commonly love so, who begin to love at the outward man before the inward: God loves us first as in Christ, and loves us because in Christ; God loves according to the figure of himself in us, and so we should love one another, if we will love according to God: let Papists love Papists only, and Prelates love Prelates only, because they are so; let us love according to that of spirit, we discern by the same spirit in each, according to that of love, faith, meekness, patience, purity, faithfulness, glory, which are the fruits of the Spirit: let us love, as we judge, and that is in spirit, as spiritually discerning according to fruits of righteousness and holiness, not according to this and that form which is carnal: for as he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, no more is he a Christian, which is one outwardly, circumcision and Christianity is not of the letter, but of the spirit; so as loving thus, we should not think nor speak against these, and these, because they are not Presbyterians as we are, because they believe not as we believe, and think not as we think. Were it not madness to fight, because we are not like one another in the face, in feature, in complexion, in disposition, in a word, because we are not alike in body? and what were it less to sight with one another, because we are not alike in the Spirit, in soul, in judgement, in conscience, in opinion? If the whole body were the eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? The less we endeavour this bond of peace, the more we shall take in new fuel to our old fire, the more advantage and opportunity will be opened to let in the old remainders of the war amongst us, which shall be as a train of powder to kindle us into new contentions; and thus new divisions will spring out from the ashes of the old, and those whom we conquer one day, will be conquerors amongst us another day, and we shall not know them from some of ourselves, and all our victories and conquests will be but the enemy's design of recruiting our misery; they whom we subdue, finding the vein of enmity running through Presbytery and Independency, will soon gird themselves to battle in those Notions, and we shall never want enough of Presbytery and Independency, till they undo us after our own fashion: and if they cannot kill us as Cavaliers and Malignants; in this new way, they may kill us as Presbyters and Independents. And surely they will have so much jesuitism, as never to let us starve for Heretics and Schismatics: the jesuits run commonly over to the Lutherans, and rail there against Calvinists and so they never want matter for division in Germany; it is the great design of Conclaves and Popish Counsels, to practise upon States in their own religions and customs, and to turn us back into Popery, by being Protestants amongst us, and to raise up new troubles by changing the old, and by transfiguring their enmity; Satan himself can be an Angel of light, when he cannot pass as a power of darkness, and where works he thus but in the children of disobedience? And Brethren, let us not let our enemies in at backdoors, of Presbytery and Independency: let us not undo ourselves when God would save us: let us see that these workings are but the old design in a new Form. The last reason is: People are not wholly undeceived in their present Ministers. And to that end consider, 1. That these Ministers who tell them thus, and preach thus, are neither as Aaron was nor as the Prophets were, nor as the Apostles were, nor have such an infallible gift, nor spirit of discerning, so as their words and Sermons are no more to be believed then the words of the Scripture proves, and people are to try all and to try spirits, and so trust, and now (friends) not believe Sermons too suddenly, because their Sermons are not very Scripture, but interpretation to their light, and light may be darkened with carnal reason and interest. 2. That these Ministers who preach so for Presbytery through blood and persecution now, did but a few years since preach as confidently for the Service-book, for Bishops, or against the Presbytery, & our Brethren of Scotland. 3. That these Ministers that preach nothing but Presbytery, Government, and Divine Right, yet never tried it in their lives, nor lived in the experience of it, but have it by report, and by Idaea, or model, or Landship from other Countries, and some specious Scriptures. 4. That these Ministers who would press the Covenant against Popery and Episcopacy root and branch, yet will be content, though Bishops be unlawful, to say the Bishop's hands which ordained them are not; and that Bishops could make them Ministers of Christ, though they were Antichrist themselves, and that Episcopacy could make a lawful Ministry. 5. That these Ministers who preached against Deans, and Archdeacon's, and Prelates, as unlawful, can be content very well with their maintenance; their tithes are not popish, nor the profits nor revenues are not against Covenant: (people) look a little into these men, that hold there is no popery in any thing that makes them rich, or maintains them: is this the doctrine of the cross, and selfe-deniall? 6. That these Ministers who preached against Pluralities, yet now a Mr Seaman, Mr. Vines, Mr. Hill, Mr. Segwick, etc. mastership of a College, and a great Living or two of some hundreds a year, with Chaplainships, as they commonly have, and two or three great Lectures in conjunction with a great Living, is not Plurality, nor must be accounted so: Nay, for a Presbyter to have two livings is no plurality now, but for a Prelate to have them is undoubtedly so. By the same tenure the Prelates formerly lived at Court, and in Lords houses, and held Livings, as they in the Assembly, now, by their attendance there. 7. That these Ministers who pretend to so much light and certainty of truth; yet after two years reasoning and proof, have not been able to prove their way of Government from Scripture; so as there are so many excellent Queries propounded from the Honourable Parliament, which lie unanswered, unless the Ministers intent to resolve the Parliament some other way, by making the tumults more, and their answers less; for their books and Sermons speak no less. Was ever Reformation, but where the Red Dragon is in the Pulpit, preached for in so much blood? and I pray (friends) are all things so true as they tell you? our greatest and wisest Counsel can see no such thing in it yet: and since you expect your Government from the Parliament, I pray go not before them in your judgements, but stay and examine as they do. 8. That the mystery of the Popish Ministry hath ever been to lead the people, and stir up the people, either by merit, or martyrdom, or ministry: and therefore the poor souls of England had given away all their Lands once to Monks and Friars, and would all fight for the Holy Land, and the Kings and Princes their power to do with as they pleased: and all was, as the Priest said, for Religion too, all as the Holy Church said: and now merit, martyrdom, and ministry carry all before them yet, in some measure, though not in so much: England hath seen so much, as to take much of their lands again, and Tithes again from the Ministry; and the Parliaments have seen so much as a little to debate Religion with the Synods: and this Parliament hath seen more, by how much they have reasoned, disputed, quaeried with their Ministers: When did ever England see so much liberty before? when durst Parliaments talk with their Ministers till now? And (friends) let not the old Popish things of merit, martyrdom, and ministry, carry us away as they did. I remember an excellent saying reported of General Lesley to our Nobles and G●ntry, when they were ready to fight for Bishops, to this purpose, Shall we lose our blood for so many fat Swingers? And I pray, are not these the Sons of the Swingers according to ordination, ordained and called by Bishops? Is our blood too good for Bishops, and not for Presbyters, as some think? 9 That these Ministers who seem to close with those whom they so lately called, and preached against as Malignants and Cavaliers, yet cannot love them, or use them otherwise then in design to help up with the Government, and then leave them, und persecute them under the same Notion with us as Heretics, using them now, as the Israelites did the Gibeonites, as hewers of wood, and drawers of water; and then what will become of these poor souls, who having helped up the Presbyters into the room of the Bishops, to be sure they shall neither have Common-prayer-book, nor Surplice, nor Bishops, nor Sacraments; for the Directory shall keep out the Common-Prayer-book, and Presbyters shall keep out Bishops, and Elders shall keep out all Communicants of such and such sins, and Uniformity will keep out Conformity: And if ye hope for better, by the bustle and differences, and sidings; Issues and success are in God's hand, not in ours: Ye may know when ye begin, but not when ye end; and they will be first in the Presbytery, before ye in the Prelacy. Therefore consider things. 10. That these Ministers, though some of them were old Non-conformists, and have a power of God in them, (which I desire to love under any Form) yet according to their Interests they are not so, nor to the flesh they are not so, and it is their old man I write against, not their new; so far as they are men, and so far as they are persecuters, so far as they are lovers of gain, not of godliness, so far as they are accusers of their Brethren, so far as they are in the Form of Godliness, not in the power: Therefore consider, these men are not all spirit and truth, we are not to call one of them jubiter, nor the other Mercurius; They are men of like passions with us, and ye; and the worst I wish (saving their humour of Persecution) is that the Lord would make them love us in the Spirit, and we shall in all love allow them their Forms. To Mr. GATAKER. SIR, I Hope I shall answer all things material in your Book; but your Margin I shall not meddle with: I observe, you commonly in all your books fill that with things, and Authors, of little value to Christ crucified; As in your last leaf, where you quote Sophecles the Poet, comparing yourself to an old prancing horse. I should not rebuke your years, but that I find you Comical and Poetical; and for my part, I am now ashamed to own those Raptures, though I am young, having tasted strains of a more glorious Spirit; how much more you that are old, and call yourself a Divine, ought not to have any fruit in those things? I hope I shall be in no more passion with you, than with your Brother of the Assembly, Mr Ley. I write to edify, not to conquer; nor to teach others, but that we may be all taught of God. JOHN SALTMARSH. To the Author of the PLEA for the congregational, or (as he should have said) Parishional Government. SIR, A word to you the Author of the Plea. You have so entangled and wrapped yourself in the congregational and Church-principles, as if you meant to engage me at once against your Presbytery, and the dissenting Brethren. But that Spirit which makes me oppose you, makes me discern your design, and so I hope I shall single you from them; though you have clothed yourself in their Apologetical Narration, yet I must deal with you as yourself, and your Brethren, not as theirs; and it is but a little I have to say to you. But why no Name? Is your Divine Right so questionable, that you will not own it? or are you one of them that sit too near it to commend it with open face, and think you may better, and more modestly do it in disguise, and without a name? Had I not some reason to suspect it came from some of that sort, I had passed it by with as little noise as it came abroad: And I have but little to say to you now; I cannot stand long wrangling in things that grow clearer and clearer every day, for the day breaks, and the shadows fly away. SHADOWS FLYING AWAY: Or, A Reply to Master Gataker's Answer to some passages in Master Saltmarsh his Book of FREEGRACE. Master Gataker. (1) THat he was traduced by one Master John Saltmarsh, a man unknown to him, save by one or two Pamphlets, as witnessing to the Antinomian party. (2) That he must unbowel and lay open some of the unsound stuff. (3) That some think they have found out a shorter cut to Heaven. (4) That my inferences upon his words are not true, nor as he intended: As if a Protestant with a Papist disputing about the Mass, should say the Controversy is not concerning the nature of Sacraments, etc. Answ. To the first, that you were traduced by me: Let not you and I be judge of that: both our Books are abroad; and I have quoted your words to the very leaf where they are. Your meaning I could not come at: the deep things of the heart are out of the power of another's quotation. For myself unknown to you but by two Pamphlets: I take your slighting: I could call your Treatises by a worse name than Treatises; for I knew one of them some years since, that of L●ts, wherein you defended Cards and Dice-playing: And it had been happy for others as well as myself, in my times of vanity, had you printed a Retractation. I believe you strengthened the hands of many to sin. I know you love ancient Writers well, by your Margin and quotations. And I pray remember how Augustine honoured Truth as much by confessing Errors as professing Truths. What fruit should you and I have of these things whereof we are now ashamed? For your witnessing to the Antinomian party against your will: Is that your fault, or mine? Nor am I to judge of your reserves, and secret senses, but of words and writings. Nor is it an Antinomian party I allege you to countenance: but a Party falsely traduced and supposed so: a Party called Antinomian by you, and others, and then writ against: A setting up Heretics to deceive the world, and then telling the world such and such are the men. You may make more by this trick, than you find so. To the Second, that you will lay open the unsound stuff: I shall not be unwilling, I hope, to be told my failings: but I must look to the stuff you bring in the room of mine, and entreat others to try the soundness of yours It is not my saying, that mine is sound, will make it better; nor your saying it is unsound, can make it worse. Let every one's work be proved, and then he shall have whereof to boast. To your Third, of some finding out a shorter cut to Heaven then some former Divines: I know not what you mean by shorter cuts. The Papists find a way, they say, to Heaven by works, some Protestants by Jesus Christ and works, and others by Jesus Christ alone, and make works the praise of that Free grace in Jesus Christ: And is that a shorter cut than theirs, as you call it? or rather, a clearer revelation of Truth? Methinks you expressions have too much of that which Solomon calls frowardness in old men. Argue, and prove, and bring Scripture as long as you please, but be not too quarrelsome. But I shall excuse you in part, because you tell us you are not yet recovered from sickness: so as I take this, with other of your Books, as part or remainders of your disease, rather than your judgement; and the infirmity of your body, not the strength of your spirit. But why chose you not a better time to try Truth in, when you were not so much in the body? To the Fourth, That nothing less was intended by you: I undertook not to discover your intents to the world. You might have done well to have revealed yourself more at first, that I might not have taken you to be more a friend to Truth than I see you are: forgive me this injury, as the Apostle says▪ if I accounted you better than you desire to be. Love hopeth all things▪ and believeth all things. And Paul it seems was better persuaded of Agrippa then there was cause, and quoted some of the Heathen Poets better than they intended them, as it seems I have done with you; that being the greatest thing you lay to my charge. Master Gataker. (1) That our Antinomian Free grace is not the same with that of the Prophets in the Old Testament, and the Apostles in the New. (2) That in saying the Old Testament was rather a draught of a Legal dispensation, than an Evangelicall or Gospell-one, was to tax the Ministry of the Prophets for no Freegrace. (3) That in saying the Ministers now by the qualifications they preach, do overheat Freegrace as your poor souls cannot take it, doth make the Prophets, jugglers and deluders of the people. Answer. To your first, That our Antinomian Free Grace, is not the same with the Prophets and Apostles: Why do you tell us of Antinomians, of Prophets and Apostles Freegrace? It is not the Freegrace of any of these: Freegrace is of God in Jesus Christ; Prophets and Apostles are but dispensers of it, and Ambassadors of it, and Ministers of it; and yet Ambassadors not in the same habit: The Prophets preached Grace in a rough and hairy garment, or, more Legally; the Apostles in a more clear and bright habit, in the revelation of the mystery of Christ: The Law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth by jesus Christ. I could as easily say, Master Gatakers Freegrace, and the Legalists Freegrace, as he says Our Antinomian Freegrace; but such words and reproaches make neither you nor I speak better truth. To your Second, That in saying the Old. Testament strain was rather Legal than Gospel, taxes the Ministry of the Prophets for no Freegrace: That is according to your Inference only. Because the Spirit says, the Law was given by Moses, therefore will you put upon the Spirit, that Moses taught or gave out nothing but Law? Because I say, The Old Testament was a Legal ministration, therefore do I say there was no Freegrace in it? or do I not rather say, Therefore it was Freegrace legally dispensed, or preached, or ministered? Would not such Inferences be bad dealing with the Spirit, and will it be fair dealing with me? I wonder you who pretend to write against me, as having not dealt justly with your sense, will deal so unjustly with mine, and commit the same sin yourself, in the very time of your reproving mine. You may see what this Logic hath brought you to, To deceive yourself, as well as your neighbour. Can you cast out my mote, and behold, a beam in your own eye? I have printed all you quoted: let the Reader judge from this and compare it with the rest of my Book. The whole frame of the Old Testament was a draught of God's anger at sin.— And God in this time of the Law appeared only as it were upon terms and conditions of reconciltation: and all the Worship then, and acts of Worship then, as of Prayer, Fasting, Repentance, etc. went all this way, according to God under that appearance. And in this strain (saith he) runs all the Ministry of the Prophets too, in their exhortations to Duty and Worship, as if God were to be appeased and entreated, and reconciled, and his love to be had in way of purchase by Duty, and Doing, and Worshipping: So as under the Law, the efficacy and power was put as it were wholly upon the Duty and Obedience performed, as if God upon the doing of such things, was to be brought into terms of peace, mercy and forgiveness; so as their course and service then, was as it were a working for life and reconciliation. Do not these words and terms inserted, As it were, and, in the way, and, as if, and, is it were, clear me from such positive and exclusive assertions of Freegrace as you would make me speak? To the Third, That in saying the Preachers with their qualifications over-heate Freegrace, I do by that make the Prophet's deluders of the people, etc. I answer: That way of preaching the Prophets used, pressing, as you say, Repentance, Reformation, Humiliation, and with Commination, and the Law, etc. was but according to the way, and method, and strain the Spirit taught them under the Old Testament: but if the Prophets should have held forth Jesus Christ under the New Testament, and when Christ was manifested in the flesh, with such vails over him, and so much Law over him, as they did before, they had sinned against the glory of that ministration, as well as some of you, who bring Christ back again under the cool shadow of the Law, and make that Sun of Righteousness that he warms not so many with the love of him as he would do, if ye would let them behold with open face as in a glass the glory of the Lord, and if you would give his beams more liberty to shine upon them; doth not the ministration of the Spirit exceed in glory? Nor were the Prophet's deluders of the people then, because it was the people's time of Pupillage, and being under Bondage; they were shut up under the Law till faith came; they were under Tutors and Governors till the time appointed: So as that was truth, and right dispensation in them to preach so much of the Law, of curse, and judgement, etc. as they did; and of Repentance and Reformation in that strain they did: But in ye who pretend to preach Christ come in the flesh; ye who pretend to be Preachers in the Kingdom of God, and so greater than the greatest Prophet, than he that was more than a Prophet; in ye, such preaching were delusion, because it were not as the truth is in Christ, nor according to that glory of the Gospel, to that grace revealed, to that manifestation of Christ in the flesh, to that ministration of glory; but rather to those deceitful workers the Apostle speaks on, to those that troubled them with words, subverting their souls, who preached Law and Gospel, Circumcision and Christ. Acts 5. 24. Master Gattaker. (1) That we gird at those that bid men repent, and be humbled, and be sorry Matth. 18. 3. 16. 23. Luke 14. 16. Luk. 14. ●3. for sins, and pray, etc. as Legal Teachers. (2) That Christ preached repentance, humiliation self-denial, conversion, renouncing all in purpose: this is not the same Gospel with that they preach, as in Freegrace, pag. 125, 126, 152, 153, 163, 191, 193. Answer. To your first, for our girding at those that bid men repent, and be humbled, etc. as Legal teachers: If ye press repentance and humiliation legally, why wonder ye at such words as Legal teachers? Will ye do ill, and not be told of your faults? must we prophesy smooth things to you, and say ye are able Ministers of the New Testament, when we are persuaded that truth is detained in unrighteousness? We blame not any that bid men repent, or be sorry for sin, etc. be humble, etc. if they preach them as Christ and the Apostles did; as graces flowing from him, and out of his fullness, and not as springings of their own, and waters from their fountains; as if the teachers, like Moses, would make men believe they could with such Rods and exhortations, smite upon men's hearts as upon rocks, and bring waters out of them, be they never so hard and stony. We agree with you, that repentance, and sorrow for sin, and humiliation, and self-denial, are all to be preached, and shall contend with you, who preaches them most, and clearest: but then, because john said Repent, and Christ said Repent, and Peter said Repent; are we to examine the Mystery no farther? Know we not that the whole Scripture in its fullness and integrality reveals the whole truth? and must we not look out, and compare Scripture with Scripture, spiritual things with spiritual, and so finding out truth from the degrees, to the glory and fullness of it, preach it in the same glory and fullness as we find it? We hear Christ preaching before the Spirit was given, Repent; and we find, when the Spirit was given, Christ is said to give Repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins; and shall we not now preach Jesus Christ, and Repentance in Jesus Christ the fountain of repentance, the author of repentance, and yet preach repentance, and repentance thus, and repentance in the glory of it more? The Apostle in one place saith, Believe in the Lord jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved; and in another place, He is the author and finisher of our Faith; Shall we not now preach jesus Christ first? and jesus Christ the fountain, and jesus Christ the author of faith and beleeiung, and yet preach faith; yea and thus preach faith, faith in the glory, faith in the revelation of it, faith from Christ, and faith in Christ? One Scripture tells us godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation, etc. And another tells us, They shall look on him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, etc. Shall we not now preach sorrow for sin took from Christ, Christ piercing, and wounding, and melting the heart; Christ discovering sin, and pouring water upon dry ground? this is sorrow for sin in the glory of the Gospel. One Scripture bids, He that will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross. Another saith, It is he that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure, and I am able to do all things through Christ that strenghneth me. Shall we not now preach Christ our strength, and Christ one selfe-deniall? and is not this self-denial in the glory of the Gospel? So as the difference betwixt us is this; Ye preach Christ and the Gospel, and the graces of the Spirit in the parts as ye find it: we dare not speak the mystery so in pieces, so in half and quarter revealings; we see such preaching answers not the fullness of the Mystery, the riches of the Gospel, the glory of the New Testament: We find that in the fullness of the New Testament, Christ is set up as a Prince, as a King, as a Lord, as a crown and glory to every grace and gift: nay, he is made not only righteousness, but sanctification too; and so we preach him. Whereas to preach his riches without him, his graces by themselves single, and private; as, repent, and beleeus, and be humbled, and deny yourselves, ye make the gifts lose much of their glory; Christ of his praise, and the Gospel of its fullness. To the Second, of your alleging my Book in such and such pages, as another Gospel from Christ's: I shall print them as you quote them; and with them, I desire these things to be considered, together with the other parts of my Book, and the scope of it, which you have detained in unrighteousness: All these I freely open to the judgement of all who are Spiritual. Master Gataker. (1) That John, Christ's, and his Apostles Method were all one for matter Mat. 3. 2, 8. Mat 4. 17. Mark 1. 15. Acts 20 21. P. 11, 12, 13. and manner; for they all preached Faith and Repentance; and yet we are taxed for these things as Legalists by this Author. (2) John and the rest preached life and salvation upon condition of Faith, and Repentance, and Obedience. (3) Where we find Faith only preached, it is because we have but the Summaries or heads of their Sermons. Answer. To the first, that I tax you for preaching Faith and Repentance, as the Apostles did, and John did, as Legalists. Nay, I tax ye only because ye preach it not as they did, according to the full revelation of it in the New Testament; but you preach it only as you find it in their Summaries, and in the brief narration of their Doctrine; and this you ought not to do, if you will preach according to that glorious Analogy of the Gospel: and to this, I shall only bring in your own words to convince you, and so from your own mouth condemn you. You say of the Apostles, We have but Summaries See p. 13. of them, as in Acts 2. 40 and 16. 32. and you knowing this, preach only by their first Methods and Summaries, not looking to the revelation of the mystery, which the Apostle says is now made manifest. And for Rom.: 6. 25, ●6▪ john's manner of preaching, his Preaching is to be no more an example to you then his Baptism. You know the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. To the second, That Faith, Repentance, and Obedience, were conditions of life and salvation. Why keep you not to the Form of wholesome words in Scripture? Where doth the Scripture call these conditions of salvation? They that are Christ's, do believe, and repent, and obey; but do they believe repent, and obey that they may be Christ's? Hath not God chosen us in Ephes. 1. him, & predestinated us unto the adoption of children in Jesus Christ? But I know you will say, That when the Apostles did believe, repent, and obey, it is by consequence as much as a condition, and the same with a condition. But answer: The interpreting the Spirit thus in the letter, and in consequence, hath much darkened the glory of the Gospel. When some of Christ's Disciples took his words as you do, under a condition, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man; etc. the words, saith he, that I speak, are Spirit. Consider but what st●●●ts you bring the Gospel into: first, you make life appearing to be had in the Covenant of Grace, as at first in the Covenant of Works; Do this, and live; so, believe, repent, obey and live; thus runs your Doctrine: nor can you with all your distinctions make Faith in this consideration, less than a work, and so put Salvation upon a condition of works again. Is this Freegrace▪ But you say Faith is a gift freely given of God, and here is Freegrace still. But I pray, Is this any more Free-Frace respectively to what we do for life, than the Covenant of works had? All the Works wrought in us then, were freely of God, and of free-gift too, as Arminius well observes in the point of universal Grace; and we wrought only from a gift given. Either place Salvation upon a free bottom, or else you make the New Covenant but an Old Covenant in new terms; in stead of Do this and live, Believe this and live, repent and live, obey and live: And all this is for want of revealing the mystery more fully. To your third, That where we find Faith only preached, and so Salvation made short work; that it is because we have but the Summaries. I agree with you that we have but the Doctrine of the Apostles, as john's, of whom it is said, He spoke many other things in his exhortation to the people: It is true, we have much of what they said, and we want much; yet we have so much, as may show us, that according to the work of Salvation in us, Faith is the work which gives most glory to God: Abraham believed, it is said, and gave glory to God; they that believe, give glory; and Faith of all the works of the Spirit, is the glorious Gospell-worke; Christ calls it the work indeed, this is the work that ye believe: So as the only reason why we hear so much of Faith in the Gospel, is not only and merely as you insinuate, because we have but their Sermons in Summaries, and because of another reason of yours, drawn from the qualification of some they Preached to, that had other gifts, and not Faith: But because Faith is of all Spiritual increasings in us, the most gloriously working towards Christ, Faith goes out, and Faith depends, and Faith lives in Christ, and Faith brings down Christ, and Faith opens the riches, and Faith believes home all strength, comfort, glory, peace, promises. And Faith hath so much put upon it, as becomes a stumbling stone, and a rock of offence, to many: Justification, imputation of righteousness is put upon Faith; Salvation upon Faith as Christ's Blood, is put upon the Wine; the Cup that we bless, is it not the Communion of the blood of Christ; and Christ's body upon the bread, the bread that we break, is it not the Communion of the body of Christ? and yet neither the Wine nor the Bread, is his Blood or his Body, no more than Faith is either Justification or Righteousness; but such a work as goes out most into him, and carries the soul into him who is Righteousness and Justification to us. The Word were no mystery, if it were not thus ordered, and things so mingled, that the Spirit only could discern and distinguish; Do not the Papists stumble at Works? And why? because they see not Faith for Works: And do not others stumble at Faith? And why? because they see not Christ for Faith! Do not some say that the words, world, and all, and every man, makes some stumble at the Election of some, and so conclude Redemption for all. Master Gataker. (1) That Christ and his Apostles never Preached Freegrace, without conditions and qualifications on our parts, Rome 8. 1. Mat. 5. 8. etc. (2) Christ's Pag. 14, 15, 16. Blood or Wine is not to be filled out too freely to Dogs and Swine, to sturdy Rogues. (3) That saying, promises belongs to sinners as sinners, not as humbled, etc. and all that received him, received him in a sinful condition, is a Pag. 17. creeping to Antinomiamsme. (4) That God may be provoked to wrath by his Children, and David and Peter made their peace with God by repentance. (5) That God loves us for his own graces in us; God is as man, and as a Father is angry and chastiseth his for sin. (6) Faith is not a persuasion more or less of Christ's love, all may have that, men may believe too suddenly, as Simon Magus. (7) Christ bids us repent, as well as believe; yea, first to Pag. 20, 21. repent, we are to try our Faith, 2 Cor. 13. 5. 1 John 4. 1. (8) That he clogs men with conditions of taking and receiving, as well as we of repenting and obeying. (9) The sum of this man's Divinity is, Men may be saved whether Pag. 24▪ they repent or no, whether they believe or no. Answer. To the first, That Christ and his Apostles never Preached Freegrace, without conditions, etc. on our parts: I answer, They Preached Faith, and Repentance, and Obedience: But how? First; in degrees of Revelation, the Gospel came not all out at once in its glory: They Preached them, but how? not in parts, as we have their Doctrine, as you confess they Preached them; but all along in the New Testament there is more of their glory and fullness revealed concerning them; so as the degrees of revealing, the parts or summaries of their Sermons, the fuller discovery in the whole New Testament, are those things you consider not, and they are the things we only consider, and so dare not Preach the Gospel so in halves, in parts and quarters as you do, and yet will not believe you do, which is so much worse, Ye say ye see, and therefore your sin remaineth. To the second, Christ Blood is not to be filled out to Rogues and Dogs. Take heed you charge not Christ for being with Publicans and Sinners, you may upon this ground say he Preached false Doctrine, because he said, He came not to call the Righteous, but Sinners. What, were all of us in our unregenerate condition sinners or righteous persons? unholy or holy? men of Faith or unbelief? or not rather dead intrespasses and sins, till quickened with Christ? To the third. That saying, Promises belongs to sinners as sinners, and not humbled, etc. I pray, to whom doth all Promises belong first, but to Christ? and from whom to us, but from Christ? and what are the Elect, and the chosen in him, before they are called or believe, but sinners as sinners? Do you look that men should be first whole for the Physician, or Righteous for Pardon of sins, or justified for Christ; or rather sinners, unrighteous, ungodly? While 〈…〉 〈…〉 we were yet sinners Christ died for us; He died for the ungodly. Christ is the Physician, the Righteousness, the Sanctification, and makes them beleved that were not beloved, and to obtain mercy that had not obtained mercy, and Saints who were Sinners, and Spiritual who were Carnal. So as we look at Christ and the Promises coming to men in their sins; but those men were beloved of God in Christ, who suffered for sins before; so as they begin not now to be loved, but to be made to love; God begins not to be reconciled to them, but they begin to be reconciled to him; The love of God being shed abroad into their hearts by the Holy Ghost, Rom. 5. which is now given unto them. So as we looking at persons as chosen in Christ, and at their sins, as borne by Christ on his body on the Tree, we see nothing in persons to hinder them from the Gospel, and offers of Grace there, be they never so sinful to us, or themselves, they are not so to him who hath chosen them, nor to him in whom they are chosen: And this is the mystery, why Christ is offered to Sinners, or Rogues, or whatsoever you call them, they are, as touching Rom. 1●. 28. the Election, beloved for the Father's sake: I speak of such to whom Christ gives power to receive him, and believe on him, and become the Sons of God; and Christ finds them out in their sins, and visits them who sit in the region and shadow of death, and them that are darkness, he makes light in the Lord. To your fourth, That God may be provoked to wrath by his Children. I pray, Can God be as the Son of man▪ Is there any variableness or shadow of change in him? Can he love and not love? Doth he hate persons or sins? Is he said to chastise as Fathers, otherwise then in expressions after the manner of men; because of the infirmities of our flesh must we conceive so of God as of one another? Can he be provoked for sins done away and abolished? Hath Christ taken away all the sin of his? Hath he borne all upon his body or no? Speaks he of anger otherwise then by way of Allusion and Allegory? as a Father etc. And is that, He is a Father after the fashion of men? Or speaks he not in the Old Testament according to the Revelation of himself then, and in the New Testament of himself now, only because our infirmity, and his own manner of appearing which is not yet so; but we may bear him in such expressions, and yet not so in such expressions, but we may see more of him and his love, and the glory of Salvation in other expressions, and not make up such a love as you commonly do of benevolence and complacence. Did David and Peter, as you say, make up their peace with God by Repentance: Is there any that makes peace but one Jesus Christ, who makes peace through the blood of his Cross? Can Repentance make peace? Or Obedience make peace? Is there any sacrifice for sin, but that which was once offered, even he that appeared in the end of the world, to put away sin by the Heb. 9 28. & 10 12. sacrifice of himself? And was not this called by the Apostle, One sacrifice for sins for ever? Repentance, Obedience, etc. may make way for the peace made already for sin, that is, in such workings of the Spirit, the love of God in the face of jesus Christ, may shine upon the Soul more freely and fully; and the more the Spirit abounds in the fruits of it, the more joy and peace flows into the Soul; and the more the Soul looks Christ in the face, so as peace with God is not made, but more revealed by the Spirit in obedience and love, etc. To your fifth, That God loves us for his own graces in us. I thought he had loved us too in himself, and from that love given Christ for us, and yet loved us in Christ ●op; Can any thing without God, be a cause of God's love? Doth God love as we love one another, from complexions or features without, or loves he not rather thus? God is love, and therefore we are made, and Redeemed, and Sanctified; not because we are Sanctified, therefore he loves us; We love him, because he first loved us; he loved us, because he loved us, and not because we love him; not because of any Spiritual complexion or feature in us; because of his Image upon us, that is but an earnest of his love to us, that is only given us, because he loved us; he loves us from his will, not from without; for though we are like him, yet we are not himself, and he loves us as in Christ and himself. Whereas you say, God is as man, and as a Father; I hope you mean not as in himself, but as in his ways of speaking and appearing to us, and if so, we are agreed: But your taking things more in the Letter, than the Spirit, makes your Divinity less Divine, and your conceptions more like things of men then of God. This makes the Gospel so legal and carnal, when we rise little higher than the bare Letter or Scripture, not the inspiration by which it came all Scripture being given by inspiration. To your sixth, That Faith is not a persuasion more or less of God's love, and that all may have that. I pray mistake not, Can all believe from the Spirit? Can all be more or less spiritually persuaded? Do I speak of any persuasion of Christ's love which is not Spiritual? Deceive not yourself, nor your Reader, nor wrong not your Author; or do I speak of Faith abstracted from all Repentance, Obedience, &c, why deal ye thus? When you say men may believe too suddenly, because I press men to believe, and you instance in Simon Magus; Was he blamed for believing too suddenly, or for misbelieving? because he believed the gifts of the Holy Ghost were to be bought with money? Can any believe too soon? if some misbeleeve, or believe falsely, what is that to Rom. 3. them that truly believe? Shall the unbelief of some make the Faith of God without effect? God forbid: Can Christ be too soon a Saviour to us? Can the Fountain be too soon opened for sin? Can the riches of Christ be too soon brought home? Paul counts it an honour to be first in Christ: Salute Andronicus Rom. 16. 5, 7. and junia, who were in Christ before me, and the Church in Pr●scilla's house, and Epenetus, who were the first fruits of Achai● unto Christ. To your seventh, That Christ bids us repent as well as believe; yea, first repent. Yea, but will you take the Doctrine of the Gospel from a part, or summary of it, as you say, and not from the Gospel in its fullness, and glory, and Revelation: Will ye gather Doctrines of Truth, as Ruth for a while did glean, here one ear of Corn, and there another; and not rather go to the full sheaf, to Truth in the Harvest and Vintage? Will you pluck up Truth by pieces and parcels, in Repentance, and Obedience, and Selfe-dentall? and not reveal these as Christ may be most glorified, and the Saints most Sanctified, and these gifts most Spiritualised and improved? Will ye Preach Doctrines as they lie in the Letter, or in their Analogy and inference of Truth? The Papists Preach Christ's very flesh and blood to be in the Wine: And why? but because they look but half way to the demonstration of Truth in the Spirit, they shut up Christ in one Notion and not in another, and so loses the Truth by revealing it in that Form of words which is too narrow for it, and too short of the height, and depth, and length Ephes. of it. You say, We are to try our Faith: So say I too, if you would not pick and choose in my Book, to make me some other thing than you find me: But you mean, we must try our Faith for assurance, as your other words imply; and so far I say too, but you will not hear me speak: But you would have the best assurance from trial; but so far I say not as you say, is that the best Spiritual assurance that is from our own Spirits in part, or from God's alone? from our own reasoning, or his speaking? Can a Spouse argue better the love of her friend from his Tokens and Bracelets, or from his own word, and Letter, and Seal? One of the three that bear witness on Earth is the Spirit, and in 1 john 5. whom, after ye believe, ye were sealed with that Spirit of promise. Can any Inference or Consequence drawn from Faith or Love or Repentance, or Obedience in us so assure us, as the breathing of Christ himself, sealing, assuring, persuading, convincing, satisfying; I will hear what God the Lord will say, for he will speak peace to his Servants: A Saint had rather P●●l. hear that voice, than all its own Inferences and Arguments, which though they bring something to persuade, yet they persuade not so answerably 1 Pet. 1. till the voice speak from that excellent glory. To your eighth, That I clog men with conditions of receiving, as well as you of repenting etc. I answer, I preach not Receiving as a condition, as you do Repenting. I Preach Christ the Power, and Life, and Spirit, that both stands and knocks, and yet opens the door to himself. I Preach not Receiving as a gift, or condition given or begun for Christ, but Christ working all in the Soul, and the Soul working up to Christ by a power from himself. And if you would Preach Repentance and Obedience as no other preceding or previous dispositions, we should agree better in the Pulpit than we do in the Press. To your ninth, That the sum of my Divinity is, That men may be saved whither they Repent or no, or believe or no. I answer, Should I say to you, The sum of your Divinity is this, That Faith, and Repentance, and Obedience, are helps with Christ, and conditions with Christ to man's Salvation; and that Salvation in not free, but conditional; the Covenant of Grace is as it were a Covenant of Works? Should I do well in this to upbraib you and those of your way? Say not then that I think men may be saved that never repent nor believe: Why do you thus set up and counterfeit opinions, and then engrave our Names upon them? Could not I piece up your Book so (if I would be unfaithful) as make ye appear as great an Heretic as any whom you thus fancy; because I preach not Repentance, or Faith as you do; because I make all these as gifts from God's love in Christ, not as gifts to procure us God, or his love, or Christ; because I make all these the fruits of the Spirit, given to such whom Christ hath suffered for, to such whom God hath chosen in him; because I Preach Faith, and Repentance, and Obedience, in that full Revelation in which they are left as in the New Testament, and not in that scantling of Doctrine, as they are merely and barely revealed in the History of the Gospel, or Acts of the Apostles, only where the Doctrine is not so much revealed as the Practice, and the Story in Summaries, because we Preach thus, therefore we are all Antinomians, Heretics, men not worthy to live. Brethren must ye forbid us to Preach, because we follow not with you, because we Preach not the Law as ye do, nor Faith as ye do, nor Repentance as ye do? therefore do we not Preach them at all. We Preach them all, as we are persuaded the New Testament and Spirit will warrant us, and as we may make Christ to be the power of all, and fullness of all, as we may exalt him whom God hath exalted at his own right hand. And we wish that ye and all that hear us, were both almost, and altogether as we are, except in reproaches. CONCLUSION. FRom the 29 Page to the last, all your Replies amount not to any thing of substance, but of quarrelsome and humorous exceptions; and I shall, I hope, redeem my time better than in making a business of things that will neither edify the Writer nor the Reader: There are some things you might (had you pleased) raised up into some Spiritual discourse, as that of Works, and Signs for assurance, etc. But you say of yourself (how becoming such a one as you I leave) that you were like an Old Steed which neighs Pag. 43. and prances, but is past service; so as I must take this of your age and infirmity, as a fuller Answer, or Supplement to what you fail in against me. There are two or three things more observable than the rest: 1. That you tax me for saying, That the marks in John's Epistles and James, are delivered rather as marks for others, than ourselves to know us by; and I affirm it again, not as you say, excluding that other of our selves, but as I said, rather marks for others, though for both in their degrees, and kinds of manifestation. So in James 2. 24. where he saith, By Works a man is Justified, not by Faith; So in Vers. 18. 21. All which set forth Works a sign to others rather then ourselves. So in 1 John 3. 14. Hereby know we, we are passed from death to life, because we love the Brethren; compared with Ver. 17. 18. shows, That it is a love working abroad in manifestation to the Brethren; and yet I exclude not any evidence which the fruits of the Spirit carry in them, as in my Book, which yet you allege to that purpose, after Pag 81. 32. you have been quarrelling so long with it, pulling my Treatise in pieces to make yourself work, and then bind it up again after your own fashion. For your Story of your Lady, and your fallacy, That she might as well conclude herself damned because she was a sinner, as one that Christ would save because she was a sinner, And durst you thus sport with a poor wounded spirit, that perhaps could see little but sin in herself to conclude upon? Know you not that Christ came to call sinners, to save sinners? And durst you make use of your Logic to cast such a mist upon the promises to sinners? Suppose one should ask you how you gather up your assurance, now you are an old man? how would you account to us? Would you say, such a measure of Faith, so much obedience, so much love to the Brethren, so much Zeal, Prayer, Repentance, and all of unquestionable evidence? But if we should go further, and question you concerning your failings when you writ in the behalf of Cards and Dice, of the Common-Prayer-Book; if we should ask ye of your luxuriarcy in quotations in your Books and Sermons; whether all be out of pure zeal, no selfishness, no vainglory? Whether all your Love was without bitterness to your Brethren of a divers judgement, whom you call Antinomian, etc. Whether you preached and obeyed all out of love to jesus Christ, and not seeking your own things, not making a gain of godliness? Whether all your Fast and Repentance were from true melt of heart, sound humiliation; or because the State called for it, and constrained it? Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self, of Invention, of Parts, of Art, of Learning, of seeking praise from man? Oh, should the light of the Spirit come in clearness and glory upon your spirit; Oh! how much of Self, of Hypocrisy, of Vanity, of Flesh, of Corruption, would appear? how would all be unprofitable? For my part, I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance than what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousness: For, it is not what we approve, but what God approves is accepted. And I am persuaded, however you are now loath, it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old tract of Divinity, as Luther once, yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darkness and art, of self-righteousness, and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord, you will cry out, Woe is me, I am undone, for I have seen the Lord; and Lord depart from me, for I am a sinful creature; and, What went I out to see? My own unrighteousness; or rather, A Reed shaken with the wind. An Answer to a Book entitled A Plea for congregational Government: or, A Defence of the Assemblies Petition, etc. YOu write thus: (1) That the independents confess you a true Church and Minstery. (2) Those that are ordained by Bishops, may be true Ministers; else how am I a Preacher, or they true Ministers? (3) Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministry. (4) If no true Ministry, no true Baptism. (5) Must not there be persons ordaining, and persons ordained? And so the dissenting Brethren hold. (6) That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a congregational Presbyterial, and not of the other. The Independents assort a Divine Right there, and in Synods too, as they do: They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other. (7) Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null, yet they have all you can allege necessary to a Preacher. (8) Parishes here are but as in New-England, as in Jerusalem, Antioch. (9) Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God, and this Assembly so to be. (10) If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right, because not infallibly gifted, this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances. (11) If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudential, because of their mixed dnointing, you contradict that pure one you plead for. (12) The Apostles, and Elders, and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices. (13) To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word, is little less than Blasphemy. (14) The Presbyterians in France, and Scotland, and the Netherlands, do not so embroil Kingdoms. The fear of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms, is but a Bugbear. (15) They ask not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power, but a liberty to exercise that power. (16) Hath Christ● said, that in a sound Church, Church-Officers shall excommunicate, Pag. 17. and in an nnsound, the Magistrate shall do it? (17) He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voices in Assemblies, as Pag. 21. against Truth. Answer. To the first, That the Independents confess you a true Church and Ministry. You are not to prove what others confess or hold you to be, but what you are indeed, according to Truth. Nor do I contend with those that hold you so, but with you that hold yourselves so; as the Spirit to the Laodiceans; Thou sayest thou art full, etc. and, behold, thou art poor, etc. To the second, That they ordained by Bishops, are true Ministers as the Independents, and I a Preacher, for all that Ordination. If you mean that the Bishop's Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister, I grant it, because it is no mark to them that renounce it: Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it. But what is this to your Ministry or Ordination, who are yet under the Mark and Babylonish Ordination? Renounce it, come out as the Spirit calls ye, and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye, then to the Ephesians that they should be less light because they were once darkness, or less alive because they were once dead. To the third, That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministry, It is both true, and false, in several acceptions. When there was a true power, they ordained others, and others them. There was succession. But that being lost under Antichrist, so far as visibly to derive it to us, there can be no such true visible Succession appearing. And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power, must prove your Succession, if you will prove your power. To the Fourth: If no true Ministry, no true Baptism. For that as you please: I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministry, no more than you. To the Fifth: The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained, as well as we. Ye●, but do they hold Bishops ordaining, and Presbyters ordained by Bishops, and Presbyters of their ordaining, ordaining others as you do? To the Sixth, of my unjust citing the Assemblies Model or Humble Advice: and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the congregational Presbytery then in the Classical, etc. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren. I answer: Let the Model be printed to the world, to end the difference betwixt you and me. And for the Divine Right of the one and the other, I am of your mind; they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery: The one is no more of Divine Right then the other, and neither of them of any. And for the dissenting Brethren, it is not them, but you I deal with. Why come you under their shadow in a storm, and yet will let them have no liberty under yours, but would turn us all abroad as Heretics and Schismatics. To the Seventh: Though the Ordination by Bishops be null, yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher. Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this, that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null? If so, we are agreed: if not, all their other necessaries are no more than Ahabs peace: What peace, saith Jehu, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother jezebel are alive? So, what Ministry, so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remain? To the Eighth, That the Parishes are but as in New-England, as in jerusalem, etc. I pray forbear this; it is too manifest an error. Are the Parishes of England and Churches of jerusalm one and the same, so discipled, so constituted? Were all of jerusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christ's Congregations, as all Parishes are? To the Ninth, That some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods Ordinances of God, and this Assembly so. I know some of our Brethren for the Presbytery Mr Tombs. hold Infant-Baptism unlawful, and Antichristian, and hath better defended it then any yet whom I have read, hath answered it. And for this Assembly to be an Ordinance of God, I thought that had been but an Ordinance of Parliament, and stood by that power by which they were called by at first: Yet deny not but that consultations for holy ends, about the things of God, are lawful by the Word. To the Tenth, That Presbyteries, because not infallibly gifted, are of no Divine Right, and so concludes against all Presbyteries and Ordinances. Yea, against all your Presbyteries to be of Divine Right as the first. But our question is rather whether the first was any such Presbytery as you now affirm: and for aught I see, you can no more prove the truth of the Presbytery then in the sense you take it, than your Presbytery to be one with it, one only in Divine Right, not in Divine power or gifts. And how are these things suitable? To the Eleventh, That I contradict the pure Government I plead for, by pleading for yours as prudential. It were true indeed, if I pleaded it in mine own behalf. I plead it occasionally for them, who will needs have what the State cannot in conscience allow them, and yet will not practise any other but what the State shall give them; and so trouble both the State and their own consciences, and would cast a snare upon both. Brethren, if ye will needs have the State to allow ye your Presbytery, Why are ye not content with what they can allow ye? If ye will have a Divine Right which they cannot allow ye, why do ye trouble them, and sit down under a bondage of your own making? But how justly is this yoke come upon you, who would have brought a worse upon your Brethren. To the Twelfth, That the first Presbyters, and Apostles, etc. were not infallible as in divers practices. What is this to the truth and gifts they taught and taught by? They failed as men, but not as Apostles: They erred as they were Peter and Paul, but not as moved by the Holy Ghost. Take heed by opening the Apostles failings to justify your own you speak not worse Blasphemy than you name in me, and make that glorious Word of Scripture questionable which they preached, like the words that yourselves preach from that Scripture. To the Thirteenth, That to say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word, is Blasphemy. What Blasphemy is it to say, that the same Word which they writ and preached; the same Spirit spoke in them, and spoke the same truth in them which writ in them? And is it so with any of your Presbyters? Therefore till the same Spirit speak truth in them so as in the first Presbyters, will they challenge the same right, the same power? Will they have a Divine Right acted by a spirit less Divine than the Right? To the Fourteenth, That the Presbyterians in France, Scotland, and the Netherlands, do not embroil Kingdoms. There is good reason: in France they cannot if they would. I wish you would walk under the Magistrate as they do, and as your dissenting Brethren here, and not make him serve you, And in the Netherlands, do you as they do there, and leave your Brethren to the like liberty that is in that State, and they will not grudge ye your Presbytery amongst yourselves. For Scotland they are Brethren I wish no worse to, then Truth, and Peace, and power above their Ministers. To that of excommunicating kingdoms being a bugbear. You do well to say so, till ye be established: but you that dare so capitulate with States, whom ye are called to advise in things only propounded, what more may be expected upon all your principles, I leave to be judged. To the Fifteenth, That they ask not of the State a power, but a liberty to exercise that power. Well: and will ye trouble the State no further? Will ye not entreat them to punish such a one, and such a one, whom ye judge an Heretic and a Schismatic? to fine and imprison, when you have done with them at Excommunication? May the State be quiet if they say to ye, go all that are so persuaded as you are, and worship and practise as your dissenting brethren and other Saints, and trouble not us to provide for your Tithes, and Rule for you in things of your own cognizance over Consciences. But you would only have liberty from them; your power is of Christ. But you cannot so clear things as you think. If your power and liberty respectively to your selves and the Magistrate be so distinct, why have ye mingled them and confounded them all this while? Why make ye the truth and power ye have from Christ, wait so at Parliament-doores, as Master Case said? If the powers on earth will not do for Christ, as you would make the people believe, Why do not ye yourselves more for Christ? Is it better to obey God or man? Thus the more ye would single yourselves in your power and right from the Magistrate, the more your practice makes an argument against ye. To the Sixteenth, That I should say, 〈◊〉 sound Church▪ Church-officers shall excommunicate and judge of offences; and in an unsound the Magistrate, and the Inference there: I answer, I spoke and writ so, according to your principles, not to my own. Nor can I see how you can challenge such a one, entire, and simple Discipline exclusively to the Magistrate, upon no more true, pure, and Scripture-principles then your present Presbytery is. And I conceive the powers on earth, or in the world, have to do in every Government that is more of the world then of Christ▪ For if ye exclude them from a part in that Government which is partly prudential, and of man, you exclude them from off part of their own Kingdom, which is theirs by inheritance, and of more Divine Right than I conceive yours to be. And whereas you would make us believe you stand only in a pure Gospel strength and power, and desire no more of the Magistrate but liberty: can this be so in truth, when all is esteemed invalid and nothing, if the Magistrate's power doth not actuate the Minister's power? I know you may distinguish of powers Scholastically, and Spheres of working for those powers, and so tell the Magistrate and us, he doth but act in his Sphere, when he acts in yours, and indeed acts yours, making it to be stronger than it is in itself. But is not his Civil power that which puts life, as you think, into all your Presbytery? Yet he must think he doth but as a Magistrate still, as if so be that the Magistrate were made to be rods in the hands of the Church, and Swords to be drawn by them, and Iron whips at their girdles. We are not now as Aarois and Moset: we are not a Kingdom of Israel, nor a Church of Israel; though too many of you have preached the Old Testament more than the New; for what advantage, let the Magistrate judge. To the Seventeenth, That he may in time say as much of justice living upon voices in Assemblies, as of Truth▪ and so to be a Mystery of Iniquity. These are but insinuations to the Magistrate, and ghosts of Jealousy which you raise. And to put an end to such fears; when I make Church and State, Magistrate and Ministry, Gospell-laws and Civil to be both one, then challenge me for that opinion: But I have learned, that Christ's Kingdom and the worlds have a several Policy; and that may be a Law in the one, which is not to the other. And now is it your Inference, or my Principle, wrongs the Magistrate? An Answer in few words to Master Edward's his second Part of the GANGRENA, And to the nameless Author of a Book, called, An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh. MAster Edward's, the difference betwixt ye both, is this: You set your name to more than you know, as hath been well witnessed; and this man dare set his name to nothing: You sin without shame, and your Partner is ashamed of what he doth. Sin is too powerful in you against Truth, because you show yourself: and Truth is too powerful for him, because he hides himself. Master Edward's, I shall answer you in these few words: but first, The Lord rebuke thee, even the Lord. 1. If the Image of Christ be in any of those you so persecute; how can you answer it to Jesus Christ, to cast any dirt on the glory of him? 2. If God be in any of those you are so much an enemy to; how will you answer it to fight against God, any thing of God? 3. If any of those be the children of the heavenly Father, or the little ones of the Gospel, It were better that a millstone were hanged about your neck, and you cast into the Sea: So Christ tells you. 4. What is it to sin against the holy Ghost, but to hate the Light once known, or to blaspheme the works of the Spirit? And you once professed to me you had almost been one of those whom you call Heretics. Oh take heed of that sin● there is no more Sacrifice for that. And how if the works of those you so judge, be wrought in the Spirit? shall you ever be forgiven in this world, or in that to come? Read the words, and tremble. 5. Doth not the Word bid you restore those that are fallen, in meekness▪ and tell your brother his fault, first betwixt you and him? And you never yet came to any of them that I could hear of; but print, proclaim, tell stories to the world of all you hear, see, know. Is Christ in this Spirit? Is the Gospel in this strain? Will this be peace to your soul hereafter? 6. Solomon tells us, that a man may seem fair in his own tale, till his neighbour search out the matter. And how dare you then take all things at one hand, and not at another's? How dare you have one ear open for complaints, and faults, and crimes, and the other shut against all defence? Did ever Justice do this? Did you ever call for their accuser's face to face? Did you ever traverse Testimonies on both sides? And dare you judge thus, and condemn thus? Shall not the Judge of▪ Heaven and Earth make you tremble for this Injustice? Shall he not make Inquisition upon your soul for this blood? 7. Is it any other ground or bottom you stand on in this your way of accusing the Brethren, but Paul you say named some, and the Fathers named some so, and Calvin, as you told me the other day when I met you? And was there ever crime without some Scripture, or shadow of the Word? Did not Canterbury on the Scaffold▪ preach a Sermon of as much Scripture and Story for what he did, as you can for yours, if you should ever preach there? He thought ye all Heretics, as you do us; he thought he might persecute you, as you do us; and he had a Word from John Baptist for his manner of death, and a Word from the Red sea and Israelites for his death, and enemies; and a Word from Paul for his Changing Laws and Customs: and for his crime of Popery, he had a Word f●●m them that feared the Romans would come and take away their Government▪ Thus Satan and Self can paint the worst kind of sin. Poor soul▪ Is your conscience no better seated then in such a●ery apparitious of Scripture, and failings of Fathers? Do not you hear the Prayers of those souls you wound, pleading with God against your sin? Are you not in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity Is not your spirit yet flying, when none pursues you? Are not your dreams of the everlasting burning, and of the worm that never dies? Have you no gnawings, no flashings, no lightnings? I am afraid of you. Your face and complexion shows a most sadly parched, burnt, and withered spirit. Methought when I called to you the other day in the street, and challenged you for your unanswerable Crime against me, in the third page of the last Gangrena, in setting my name against all the Heresies you reckon, which your own soul and the world can witness to be none of mine, and your own confession to me when I challenged you: How were you troubled in spirit and language? Your sin was, as I thought, upon you, scourging you, checking you, as I spoke. I told you at parting, I hoped we should overcome you by prayer. I believe we shall pray you either into Repentance, or Shame, or Judgement, ●re we have done with you. But Oh might it be Repentance rather, till Master Edward's smite upon his thigh, and say, what have I done? For your Anagram upon my name, you do but fulfil the Prophecy, They shall cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. And for your Book of Jeers and Stories of your Brethren; Poor man! It will not be long music in your ears, at this rate of sinning. For the nameless Author and his After-reckoning; let all such men be doing, for me: Let them rail, revile, blaspheme, call Heretics: It is enough to me, that they write such vanity they dare not own. And now let me tell ye both, and all such Pensioners to the great accuser of the Brethren, Fill up the measure of your iniquity, if ye will needs perish whether we will or no. I hope I rest in the bosom of Christ, with others of my Brethren: rail, persecute, do your worst, I challenge all the powers of hell that set ye on work, while Christ is made unto me righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and redemption. And I must tell ye further, that since any of the light and glory of Christ dawned upon me: since first I saw that Morningstar of righteousness, any of the brightness of the glory in my heart, that heart of mine which once lived in the coasts of Zebulon and Nephtaly, in the region and shadow of death, I can freely challenge ye, and thousands more such as ye, to say, write, do, work, print, or any thing, and I hope I shall in the strength of Christ, in whom I am able to do all things, give you blessings for cursings, and prayers for persecutions. FINIS. Pag 144. line 37. for Antichristian, read great corruption.