THE SUBSTANCE OF THE ARGUMENTS For and Against The BILL, FOR Prohibiting the EXPORTATION of Woollen Manufacture from Ireland to Foreign Parts.  
Delivered at the Bar of the House of Lords.  
Together with Some Remarks on a Printed Paper, Entitled, Some Thoughts on the said Bill.  
LONDON, Printed by john Astwood, at his Printing-House behind St. Christopher's Church in Thred-needle-street, the backside of the Royal Exchange. 1698.   

The Substance of the Arguments for and against the BILL, for Prohibiting the Exportation of Woollen Manufacture from Ireland to Foreign Parts, etc.  

Against the BILL it was said,  
I. THat this Bill passing would become a total Prohibition of the Exportation of Woollen Manufacture from Ireland, because the Bill prohibits it to all Foreign Parts; and the Duty upon it here in England is so high, that it can never be brought hither; and under this Head it was said,  
That this would put the Irish upon making Cloth for their own wearing, which would be more prejudicial to England, because the Cloth imported from England into Ireland is of much greater Value than what is exported from Ireland to Foreign Parts, the English Cloth being worn there by the Nobility and Gentry.  
It was further said, That this Bill opens all the Ports in England to receive Irish Wool; and by that Means Wool coming up the Channel in sight of the French Ports, would have an easy Opportunity of running in thither: And, Secondly, That it being so near a Cut over from the North part of Ireland to Scotland, it would be carried thither, and from thence to Foreign Parts.  
II. That this would discourage the English Interest in Ireland, and that it seemed not to be well timed, after the Distress the Irish had lately been in; and that it was the English Irish that were chief concerned in the Woollen Manufacture there.  
It was said further, that the Allegations of the Bill were not true, viz. That great Quantities of the like Manufactures (to those of England) have of late been Made, and are daily increasing: And to disprove the said Allegations, an account was given, (taken as ●as said out of the Customhouse Books) to show thou more Woollen Mannfactury was exported out of Ireland from 1084. to 1687. than from 1693. to 1696. and th●● the chiefest part thereof was the New Drapery of S●●●●s and F●●z●●, and but little Cloth, which was the Old D●●pe●y of England; and that therefore the Old Drapery was not prejudiced thereby: And an Account was also given, how many Yards of Cloth was Imported into Ireland from England in a Year.  
III. It was alleged, That this was only the Concern of one place, viz. Exeter, and that that ought not to weigh with the Interest of the whole Kingdom of Ireland.  
And Notice was taken of a Paper printed for the Bill, and a List of the Names of Persons lately gone from Exeter and Tiverton to Ireland; and it was said, that several Matters of Fact in the said printed Papers were false, viz.  
The printed Paper asserts, that Wool was 50 per Cent. cheaper in Ireland than England, a pound costing there but 6 d. being worth 9 d. here, which it was said was a Mistake, and that it was but 25 per Cent.  
The second thing was about Dying Wares being dearer in England than Ireland, which was denied; and it was said, that it could not be so, because all the Dying Wares was sent from England to Ireland, and therefore of Necessity they must be dearest in Ireland.  
As to the printed List of the Names of about 150 Persons lately gone from Exon and Tiverton to Ireland, a Person said he knew three of the Names, one whereof went above twenty years since, and the other two a long time ago.  
It was agreed, that Spinning the Wool was cheaper in Ireland than England, but not the Combing and Weaving.  
And as to Soap, it was said, that but little was used in a piece of Stuff, no more than to the Value of 3 d. a piece.  
It was said by a Gentleman, who lived long in Ireland, that,  Anno 1656. the Woollen Manufacture was attempted to be set up by some, but they failed in it. 1679. Some again from Holland and England made another attempt, which also miscarried. 
But, 1684. It was again attempted, and succeeded, as to the New Drapery, but that as to the Old Drapery they can never set up that, because they have no Fuller's Earth there.  
It was further said, That, 1st. The Irish must bring their Wool to a Market where it will not vend, meaning England. Or,  
2dly. That the Wool being brought hither unwrought, will lower the Price here, and glut the Market, and that will bring down the Rents of England.  
And it was also said, That England gets much by Ireland,  
And several Irish Statutes were quoted, as 13 H. 8. c. 2. 28 H. 8. c. 17. and 11 El. c. 10. which it was said, were to encourage the woollen Manufacture there.  
I will here add also the Substance of what is contained in a Print, Entitled, Some Thoughts on the Bill, etc. That the Strength of all that can be said on that Subject may be laid together; and tho' it is somewhat long, think the Arguments are in short these.  
I. That England profits greatly by Ireland. Because,  
1. Near one third part of the Lands of that Kingdom belong to the English, who inhabit here, and have their Rents constantly returned in ready Money.  
2. Most of the Nobility and Gentry spend their Estates here.  
3. That England supplies Ireland with most of the Commodities they consume; that nine tenths of the People there, that are able to buy it, wear English Woollen Manufactures, and that England receives little from Ireland, their Cattle being prohibited, high impositions on their Tallow, Leather and Corn, and last year the Tonnage and Poundage was doubled on their Linen and other Manufactures, and such as are suffered to come, are absolutely necessary for us, or Materials for our Manufactures.  
4. That what Ireland gets by Trade, centres all in England, and the Trade there is mostly carried on by English Stocks.  
And hereupon it is said, that we seem to desire to get so much from Ireland, that at last we may put them out of a condition to pay us any thing.  
The Second general Head is, what was urged at the Lord's Bar, that it may weaken the English Interest, so as to endanger the Loss of that Kingdom.  
And it is said, That it may not necessarily follow, that so much the more Woollen Manufactures will be made in England, as is restrained or destroyed in Ireland, but that Holland, France, etc. may get the Trade Ireland loses, and that what Ireland has done, has not lessened the Woollen Manufacture in England.  
And then he comes, fol. 10. to the point, on which the Stress of the Controversy depends, and that is, whet her the Irish can send their Manufactures cheaper to Foreign Markets than the English, and this the Author affirms they cannot, because they want numbers of People, and Stocks, and Materials.  
The Author says further, that they make only a sew Stockings, Stuffs and Frizes, which are different from those made in England, and yet they send but few abroad, and that because they pay less Wages in Ireland than here, they are not so likely to drain our People away, and that none go there but such as are necessitated.  
He argues, That those who are in the Woollen Manufacture there, will be forced to go to other Countries, if this Bill pass.  
And the last doubt is, whether the Law, if made, would take effect, it being the Interest of all Ireland to defeat it. And then again, the Bugbears of Scotland and France are set up. And after all, the Author proposes a gentler Method of doing the Work, and that is by secret Discouragements, and so to let it decline by degrees.   

For the BILL, and in Answer to the Objections to it, it was said.  
I. It was acknowledged, That the Duties on Woollen Manufactures from Ireland are at present high, the Subsidy being lately doubled, which will soon expire, and then they will come near to a level with the English, some a little over, and some under; and yet notwithstanding, we find by daily experience, great Quantities of Irish Frizes, Broad cloth napped, and Stuffs, imported into England.  
If the prohibition put the Irish upon making Cloth for their own wearing, instead of what now they take from England, it seems then, the Irish can take to making Cloth if they please, and no doubt of it, and the English will never deny them the liberty of making what they themselves wear, but have just reason to fear that by degrees they will not only do that, but beat the English quite out of their Trade to Foreign Markets, which must be the natural consequence of their making the Woollen Goods so much cheaper than we can.  
That this Bill opens all the Ports of England to receive Irish Wool, is true, and with great reason, that one place may have it on as easy terms as others, otherwise the charge of Land-carriage, and other Charges and ill-conveniencies are so great, that it makes 10 per Cent. difference between places no further distant than Biddeford and Exon. And whilst all our Plantation Goods, and particularly Tobacco, which pays so high a Duty, come up the Channel, and Wool is sent from Southampton to Jersey and Guernsey, and may also be sent from any one Port to any other Port in England, and all under no other Security than Bond given to discharge in England, there can be no greater danger here, nay much less, seeing by this Bill it is provided, that the Bonds for Security shall be given by sufficient Persons, residing in or near the place where the Goods are shipped, and shall not be granted over to any Person, and that a particular account from time to time shall be transmitted to England of all the Wool shipped, and the Ships and Masters Names, and to whom, and at what Port consigned.  
As to what was said, This would discourage the English Interest in Ireland, it was answered,  
1. That by their own Confession, the Woollen Manufacture has not long been set up in Ireland, and the English Interest was preserved before that time, and no doubt may be so still, without drawing so many People from England as would certainly leave it, if the Woollen Manufacture goes on there; and it is better that a good strength remains in one Kingdom, than to divide it into both, by which means neither may be strong enough to resist a Foreign Enemy.  
2. Tho' the Woollen Manufacture be suppressed there, they have the same means of Improvement they had before; nay, greater, since our West Indies take off so great Quantities of their Provisions, Horses and Servants, which makes a compensation in some measure for the prohibiting their Cattle from coming into England.  
3. The Soil is very well adapted to produce Hemp and Flax, and so to establish the Linen Manufacture, which would find all due Encouragement from England, and employ great numbers of People, and so would the Fishery, which might be carried on on the Irish Coast to great advantage.  
4. They send great Quantities of Corn, Beef, Hides, Tallow, Butter, etc. to Foreign Markets, and will never want means of improving their Country, and increasing their People, without giving so great a Wound to England.  
As to the Truth of the Allegations in the Bill:  
1. The Accounts they themselves gave, were a sufficient Proof of them; for by them it appeared, great Quantities of New-draperies were exported (which altho' they endeavoured to shroud under the Name of Frizes, yet they are known to be Bays, Perpetuano's and Serges) such as are made in divers parts of England, and a Witness on Oath declared, that the Irish Serges were preferred to the English in Holland, and were in great demand at the same time that English Serges lay on hand, and would not sell.  
2. That the Woollen Manufacture had as yet increased to no greater a height, (was said to be, as the Truth is) because of the late War, which made Exportation from Ireland unsafe; and that Kingdom not being well settled, Persons were unwilling to adventure their Stocks, and to enlarge their Trades, but that nothing can hinder their increase now, if Peace continues, but this Bill.  
Further it was said, That there was no doubt, but by degrees they would improve and increase in their making of Cloth, for that all things grew to perfection by degrees, as the Woollen Manufacture did heretofore in England, and making of Lute-strings and alamodes was coming to it, and that nothing could hinder this in Ireland, having there the same Materials, and by degrees would have Workmen from England sufficient, and a good profit arising by it, Fuller's Earth would be found there, or sent from hence, or they may do as they do in Holland and France, where they have no Fuller's Earth, and yet make as fine Cloth as we do in England.  
III. It was said, That this was not the Concern of Exeter alone, but of all England, for there were presented to their Lordships at least 18 Petitions from several parts of England, as from Norwich, Colchester, Bocking, London, Sudbury, besides those from Somerset and Devon, who thought themselves immediately concerned.  
2. All the parts of England are affected, where Wool is produced, in the price of their Wool, which would soon be reduced to a very low rate, when the Manufacture of it is decayed.  
3. The increase of the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland would draw People from all parts of England, who consume the Product of the Land.  
4. The able working People of England going over, would leave the Weak and Aged a Charge to the Parishes, and on both accounts the Rents of England must fall considerably.  
5. That the Woollen Manufacture of England exported, was above half the Value of the whole Exportation, and that being lost must needs also abate the Value of all the Lands in England.  
As to the Objections made to the Paper printed for the Bill.  
And, First, About Dying Wares being cheaper in England than Ireland, it was said, 1. That such Goods may be brought from any part of Europe, Asia or Africa, directly to Ireland, and the few sorts which come from America to England, as Loggwood, Indigo, etc. draw back great part of the Custom, when exported to Ireland; particularly Loggwood, so much as that it may be afforded cheaper there than here; and altho' as yet Dying Wares do not come in very great Quantities directly from other Parts to Ireland, yet they will do so, as the Woollen Manufacture there increases. And it might have been added, that there is lately gone from Holland to Ireland a great Quantity of Redwood, which is brought thither from Guinny cheap, altho' in England it is at a very high Price.  
As to the Objection, that Wool selling for 6 d. per lib. in Ireland, and at the same time in England for 9 d. per lib. was but 25 per Cent. difference, Arithmetic determines that; for if what cost in Ireland 100 l. sells in England for 150 l. that is plainly 50 per Cent. odds, and 6 d. to 9 d. bears the same proportion.  
The Names of three Persons amongst 140 in the Printed List were picked out; one whereof, as their Witness said, went a way 20 Years since; but being asked, he could not say but there might be others of the same Names gone since, and he owned it was seven Years since he left Exon.  
About the Workmanship it was owned, that the Spining was much cheaper in Ireland; and tho' it was said, that that was the least part of the Work, yet the Clothiers know, that it is above half: And as the Manufacture increases, the resort of People skilled in it will increase; and Ireland being so cheap a Country, when it is in Peace, the Workmanship of all kinds must be cheap too. The Person that Witnessed at first that but three Penny worth of Soap was used in a Serge, afterwards owned himself mistaken, and in truth there is above three pound of Soap used in a Serge, which is worth about One Shilling.  
From the Account given of the first Attempts that failed to settle the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland, in 1656. and 1679, and that which afterwards did succeed in 1684. it was observed, That all New Manufactures are begun with some difficulty, as the Woollen Manufacture itself formerly in England, and the Manufacture of Lutestring and alamodes lately here: And tho' at first it succeeded not in Ireland, even in the New Drapery, yet afterwards it took effect, and to that Degree, that a Witness on Oath affirmed, that they make as good Serges in Ireland as any where in England; and tho' as yet they are not come to perfection in Fine Cloth, nothing can hinder them from it in time, having, as before was said, the same Materials and Workmen, and all, so much cheaper than we.  
It was acknowledged by a Gentleman against the Bill, that bringing the Irish Wool hither would not prejudice the Price of English Wool; and it is not to bring it to a Market where there is no Vent; for it always did, and always will find Vent here; and England will be much the better Market for it than Scotland, though it should even be permitted to go there.  
As to the Gains England makes by Ireland, the clear Gains are not much, and England would pay too dear to part with their Woollen Manufacture for them: And whoever pleases to look into the Irish Statutes quoted, will find that they were only to prevent the Exportation of Wool, and not to encourage the Exportation of Cloth to Foreign Markets.  
And now to give Answer to so much of the printed Paper, Entitled, Some Thoughts, etc. as is not answered before:  
The Author has written with much Art, and said a great deal that does not immediately concern the Question, and but slightly touched what does.  
And First, as to the Profit England gets by Ireland.  
1. England had need get something where it has been at so vast Expense of Blood and Treasure, to deliver and protect Ireland.  
2. This was got by Ireland, before the Woollen Manufacture was set up in Ireland, and will be after that is suppressed there.  
3. If it should get by the Establishment or Continuance of the Woollen Manfactury, which must unavoidably ruin our own, by getting a penny we should lose a pound.  
If most of their Nobility and Gentry spend their Estates here, it is because they live where they like best, but as Ireland flourishes more and grows greater, as it must do if they remain in Peace, and such a Bill does not pass, that Humour by degrees will alter, and they will have every thing as much to their Content and Pleasure there as here, and now they go as much to Foreign Parts as England.  
That England supplies Ireland with most of the Commodities they consume is affirmed, and formerly it was so, but before the War, the Case began to alter, and they were more supplied by the return of their own Product and Manufactures sent abroad then from England, and if a Peace continues there, and they go on with their Woollen Manufacture, they will soon want nothing from England, but it's able working People and Manufacturers and Seamen.  
And altho' England has prohibited their Cattle, yet a great deal of Tallow, etc. comes hither, and Anno 7th. and 8th. of this King, An Act was made here to encourage the Linneen Manufacture of Ireland, and therein it was Enacted, That it might be lawful to bring any sorts of Hemp or Flax, and all the Production thereof as Thread, Yarn and Linen of the Growth and Manufacture of Ireland free from all manner of Customs, Duties and Impositions whatsoever. It is true indeed, that the next year the Act which doubled the Subsidies of Tonnage and Poundage, did by an oversight (as is supposed) comprehend Linen, etc. from Ireland, which by the Wisdom of the Nation may be rectified.  
It is asserted, that the Trade in Ireland is carried on mostly by English Stocks, but the Author is misinformed in that particular, and will soon find many Foreigners send their Stocks thither when things are settled, as they did before the War, and if they were English Stocks, yet that would be a great deteriment to England, to have the Stock drawn out of Trade here to be employed there.  
Concerning the weaking the English Interest, it has had an Answer, and further it may be said, that the Irish themselves say the Woollen Manufacture there, for Foreign Exportation is small, and if we Prohibit that, they will in all likelihood make the Cloth they wear themselves, which is much more, Where then is the weakening them? It is not fit that they should have an Accession of Strength by the Diminution of our own, who must support ourselves and them too.  
It is evident that as the Irish make and vend more Woollen Goods abroad, we shall vend the less, because all Traders to Foreign Parts know, that the Goods they make are in imitation of Ours, and they are wise enough to send such Goods as they find are Esteemed and will Sell; and such the English make and send; and the going off of many of our Woollen Manufacturers to Ireland, is too convincing a Proof to be denied, that the increase in one Kingdom must be the decrease of the other.  
And now the Author of Some Thoughts, etc. is come to the main and indeed the only Point, on which the Controversy turns. And that is, Whether in Ireland they can make the same Woollen Manufacture cheaper than in England; and this the said Author, Determines in the Negative, but leaves us to seek the Proof of it where we can find it; and seeks to cloud the Matter with an obscure way of Arguing but such as every one must see through, especially such discerning Judgements as the Matter is now before. To make a long Notional Argument to prove that two and two makes four, or any other certain Proposition in Arithmetic; or to argue against the Truth of Addition or Substraction of Sums without Numeration; is equally absurd. And therefore the plain Answer to that, is the account which follows.  
 In England.  In Ireland.  l. s. d.  l. s. d. A piece of Serge of about 40 s. price, takes up 24 lib. of Wool, at 9 d. per lib. 00 18 00 at 6 d. per lib. 00 12 00 The 24 lib. of Wool when Combed, makes 15 lib. for the Spinner, at 9 d. per lib. 00 11 03 at 5 d. per lib. 00 06 03 Soap used 00 01 00  00 00 08 Combing and Weaving reckon the same in both places 00 09 00  00 09 00  1 19 03  0● 07 11  
So that a Piece of Serge which costs in Ireland but l. 1.7.11. costs in England l. 1.19.3. which is 40 per cent. difference besides the Exchange.  
And if the Advocates for the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland would succeed, They Ought to disprove one of these two Points.  
1. That either this Account is False, and in what Particulars; Or,  
2ly. That if the same Sorts of Woollen Manufacture are made in Ireland 40 l. per Cent. cheaper than in England, and thence Exported into Foreign Parts: That Foreigners will for the sake of England, Buy English at dearer Prizes, or that English Merchants, will to their loss send English rather than Irish. But these are so self-evident, that they may as well attempt to prove it is Night at Noonday. And therefore let the Consequence be what it will to Ireland, it can never be supposed, that the Lords or Commoners whose Estates, and Families, and Interests are in England, will ever yield this Point to the Irish. The Case with England is not the same as formerly: Heretofore our Neighbours had no great Strength at Sea; and then Foreign Trade which is the Foundation and Maintenance of our Shipping and Customs was not of such absolute necessity as now it is. The French and the Dutch are now grown Powerful in Shipping and Sea Force, and England being an Island must at all times be able to cope with all its Neighbours in Strength at Sea, or it will soon become a Prey to Foreigners. And this can be done by no other means but the most vigorous Promotion of our Foreign Trade; and the Woollen Manufacture is so great and essential a part of it, and that on which all the rest Depends, That with submission it seems to be no Policy, so much as to connive at the least Diminution, or to allow of the least Discouragement of it.  
And whilst the Irish did formerly, and may still go on with Tillage and other Trades greatly to their advantage, without the Linen Manufacture, and especially whilst England seems to be inclined by all ways and means, to encourage their Proceeding upon the Linnen-Manufacture, they will have no reason to complain.  
The Author says, Ireland is not likely to drain England of People, because they pay less Wages there, as the Promoters of the Bill assert, but if the Advice of a very ingenious Gentleman who has written of Trade, were followed, to reckon by Political Arithmetic, this Author would have seen where his Error lay, in not reckoning, that if at the same time that People have less Wages in Ireland they spend much less, and so can lay up more at the years end, than it would be Encouragement enough to invite People there, where they can get most.  
That those who are in the Manufacture there, will be forced to go to other Countries, seems not likely, for the reason the Author himself gives elsewhere, that they will turn to making of Cloth for their own wearing in Ireland, or if they do, there is no Country where they can find so great Encouragement as to return to their Native Country.  
The probability of their Wool going to Scotland or France, is before answered, and to prevent that, if this Act be not strict enough, it is a good Foundation, and a stricter may in time be made, and the Government there being so much under the Direction and Influence of England, there is no doubt but the Laws will be executed there as well as here, and I believe by degrees, the Rumny-Marsh People will be weary of their Connivance.  
The Proposal which the Author makes of doing the Work more gently by secret Discouragements, seems cruel and unjust: Cruel, to ruin People under the pretence of showing them Kindness, and unjust to do it where there is no Public and known Law to give them notice, whereby they may order their Affairs accordingly.  
All which is Humbly Submitted.    

Postscript.  
WHereas a Witness against the Bill affirmed on Oath, That the first Man named in the Printed List, viz. Thomas Allen, went away to Ireland at least twenty years since, upon Enquiry it is found, That he went thither about twelve years ago, and not for Debt, and when the War broke out in Ireland he came back to England, and about a year since returned to Ireland again, and has sent for his Wife and Family, who are since gone thither to him.— and Henry How, whom their Witness said went away in 1680. or 1681. went away but about four Months since from Gullumpton.