AN ANSWER TO THE EIGHTH CHAPTER OF THE Representer's SECOND PART.  
In the First DIALOGUE Between Him and His Lay-Friend.  

licenced,  
March 1. 1686.   
LONDON: Printed for William Rogers, at the Sun over-against St. Dunstan's Church, in Fleetstreet. MDCLXXXVII.   

An ANSWER to the REPRESENTER's Eighth Chapter, &c.  Lay-friend, 
COme Sir, without farther Ceremony, why does not your Church allow Vulgar Heads to red the Scriptures?  Representer. 
Not because we fear there are any discoveries to be made of Errors and Follies in our Religion: For there's no College, University, Community or Place of Learning amongst us, but where the Scriptures are publicly red and expounded.  L. 
That is to say, so much is red publicly as is convenient, and that which is red, is as conveniently expounded. Come, come, you are too bashful upon this occasion: e'en say, that the Bible may be freely red by any Body in those your Places of Learning. 'Twixt Friends, indeed there's no such thing. But no matter for that; I will suppose it for once, and give you leave to make your best on't.  R. 
I will also reserve your Supposition to some other time. At present, I say, that if we were Conscious of contradicting the Scriptures, Scholars of all Men should not be permitted by us to red the Scriptures; for 'tis more likely they should make this discovery in their reading the Bible, than the Vulgar. Are the Errors and Follies of Popery such, that of necessity a man must be a Blockhead to understand them?  L. 
No, but they are such as I think a Blockhead may understand them, if he be not an extraordinary Blockhead.  R. 
A little good Manners, Friend, would not do amiss; are we such Blockheads with you then?  L. 
No, no, you have some Learned, and many shrewd Heads amongst you. My meaning is, that it requires neither Learning nor Cunning, to find that your Religion, and that of the Bible, are in several things contrary to one another. But since you kindle so fast, why do you insinuate that none but mechanics and Apronstrings make the discovery? Are we all of this Church, a company of mechanics and Apronstrings, or Blockheads at least?  R. 
Not so fast; I meant only, that the Learned Men of our Communion could not make the discovery.  L. 
Then your meaning was little to the purpose. And now, since you have given the occasion, I must tell you, that we have very many Priests and Laymen, that can give as good an account of their Studies as any of the very best that you can bring. And I believe the World takes notice of it too.  R. 
What a blustering, huffing Champion for the Church of England, is this Lay-friend of mine! why, sure thou takest thyself to be one of the Learned Laity, that thou talkest so bravely of the Church of England Learning.  L. 
No truly, I am content to be put down amongst your Blockheads; only remember to writ, that the Blockhead is not afraid of the Representer. Wherefore to go on, they are not mechanics and Apronstrings only, but as Learned Men as the World has any, who discover your Errors by the Scriptures: and it was a poor mean Fallacy of yours to dissemble it. We have mechanics amongst us, that have not only more honesty, but more wit than this comes to.  R. 
Thou art, I tell thee once again, a very quarrelsome, arrogant Member of thy Church; but for all that, thou shalt be my Lay-friend still, and with all my heart conceit thyself as wise as Solomon; Only show a little of thy Wit now, and come to the Business. Dost thou think that our Church would allow the Scriptures to so many Learned Men as we have, if our Religion were in any thing contrary to the Scriptures? Consider a little with thyself, how 'tis possible that these Learned Men should not see it, if it were so.  L. 
How do you know that they do not see it? May they not see it, and yet be wise enough to say nothing of it?  R. 
Very well! And is it probable then, that every man amongst the Papists, no sooner becomes a Scholar, but he turns Atheist?  L. 
And is it probable then, that every man amongst the Protestants, no sooner becomes a Scholar, but he turns Atheist?  R. 
What an impertinent question was that? Did I ever say thus?  L. 
Then there is one impertinent question for another; for we never said so. But let me try whether I can ask a pertinent question or not. Do not you think 'tis very plain that the Doctrines of your Church, which we oppose, are not contrary to the Scriptures? Answer me that.  R. 
And so I will, if it be but to see what thou wilt make of it. I think 'tis plain enough.  L. 
Now 'tis more likely that Learned Men should discover what is to be discovered in the Scriptures, than that mechanics and Apronstrings should.  R. 
I have already said it; and to talk in thy strain, make thy best on't.  L. 
I have but one thing more to add, and do you make the worst on't. You reckon that we must probably conclude your Learned Men to be Atheists, if we suppose that they discover your Religion to be contrary to the Scriptures, and will yet say nothing of it. And now I think you cannot but see that you also must probably suppose our Learned Men to be Atheists, if they discover that your Religion is not contrary to the Scriptures, and will yet bear the World in hand, that it is.  R. 
Hold, hold. But may be the case is not the same.  L. 
Then the case is altered, quoth Ployden. But you would do your Lay-friend no small courtesy to show him the difference. Pray, why should not our Learned men be as good at making Discoveries, as yours?  R. 
Nay, if you will needs prove your Learned men to be Atheists, who can help it?  L. 
Must they be Atheists then on one side or t'other? However my question has by this time gained a little pertinence; and may deserve to be considered.  R. 
Hast thou forgot the Proverb? That a Fool may ask more Questions than a wise man can Answer?  L. 
And yet I have answered yours; and that without saying, either that your Learned Men are probably Atheists, or probably not.  R. 
Nay, I confess, a question wisely avoided, shows more Discretion, than a question foolishly answered. But betwixt you and me, my question is not answered yet.  L. 
Say you so? Why, if you put me to it, it shall go hard but I will avoid it once more; and two wise avoidings, may for ought I know go for one wise Answer, according to another Proverb, That two Foils makes a Fall. Have you never heard of the Advice given to Pope Julius 3d, by some Bishops that sat at Bononia, in order to the support of the Roman See, as Vergerius has it?  R. 
It seems you have by your asking. Pray, remember that you are avoiding an answer to my question.  L. 
I will avoid it as fast as I can. If you look into Consil. de stabil. Rem. seed. you will go near to find this Advice given: That, as little of the Gospel might be red as was possible. I shall not trouble you with all that they say to this purpose, but make hast to their Reason for this Advice: In truth, say they, if one diligently considers it( as you know Scholars can do) and compares it with what is done in our Churches, he will find them very contrary to each other, and our very Doctrine not only to be different from it, but inconsistent with it.  R. 
You do not intend to say, now at last— what do you mean by this Sir?  L. 
So, so. I shall be drawn into a snare, if I do not look better to myself. No Sir, I intended only to show that that same question which we have been so long upon, might as well have been spared. That's all.  R. 
'Tis well that's all, Sir. And as we met, so now let us part Friends.  L. 
Nay, and if we be Friends, we'l think of Bononia no more, and so go on to the end of the Chapter.  R. 
With all my heart Friend. And now I must tell ye, that I never met with any one, that left our Communion by reading and following the Word of God.  L. 
Right Sir. For 'tis not the Word of God, but the conceptions or imaginations that a man has upon reading the Word of God, that carries him away from you.  R. 
Now I protest thou beginnest to speak like a man of understanding.  L. 
For instance, A man reads in 1 Cor. 11.26. As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lords death till he come. And then there comes a certain conception or imagination into his head, that what is eaten in the Lords-Supper is Bread; and that there is a Cup to be drank of, as well as Bread to be eaten; and by that time that he has red some half a dozen places more to the same purpose, his imagination works so strongly against Transubstantiation, and the half Communion, that next night he can hardly sleep for it.  R. 
Fiddle faddle, what a prating dost thou make of one instance? Have I not said, that if the Vulgar be permitted to red the Bible, there will or may be so many different words of God, as there are heads amongst them?  L. 
And you said too, That the people benefit by the Scriptures, not by laying the Bible upon their heads, and so understanding it, but by the sense and meaning in which they understand it. For if that man we spake of before, had never done any thing with the Bible but laid it upon his head, and so had only stood under it, no harm had followed: But he must needs open it, and red the words, to come to the sense and meaning in which they are to be understood; and it was this that made all the mischief.  R. 
And is it not a mischief, prithee, to have so many Heads, so many Bibles?  L. 
Take one Text for instance, and let it be, This is my Body. You say there must needs be about so many interpretations of this place as there are heads in the vulgar amongst us. And now must I go with Pen, Ink and Paper, as you advice, to take the sense of every vulgar head that comes to the Parish Church to which I belong. But what if I should find them to be all of a mind, and then carry the Parish harmony upon this Text, to the Licenser, to be set forward with an Imprimatur, as you were speaking? I fancy the Book would be a pretty Book, and sell very well.  R. 
Thou thinkest this was wisely said now. Did I speak of a single Text, or of the whole Bible?  L. 
I cry you mercy, your meaning then was that they would not interpret the whole Bible alike. Pray do your Learned men do so? Here is the inconvenience then of letting vulgar heads have the Bible, that there will be so many vulgar heads, so many Bibles: But then there may be so many Bibles as you have learned heads amongst you, and there is no harm at all in that. But pray tell me, when our Saviour bad the Jews search the Scriptures, was he sensible, or not, of this inconvenience your Church is so much ware of? Was St. Peter to blame to commend the Christians of his days for taking heed to the word of Prophefie? Was St. Chrysostom a child, and the Fathers before him children, to exhort Christian people, diligently to red the Scriptures? Your Church certainly is very wise, to be wiser than the Fathers, than the Apostles, nay than our Saviour himself; and she has very great Authority if she can for the avoiding of inconveniences, countermand what God has commanded. But you will have all these things urged by a better hand, I guess, that will consider not only what you have said here, but your other Chapters also upon this argument.  R. 
I am very glad on't, for to talk with thee, is but to lose time. When I see any sense written against my three Chapters, I will not fail to answer it.  L. 
Just as you replied to the Learned Answerer of the Papist Misrepresented and Represented, by dropping in effect the whole controversy. Just as you answered the Protestant Preface to the wholesome advices, &c. by cavilling at a digression or two, and saying never a word to the matter of Fact, which was the subject both of the Preface and the Book. And just as you have now replied to my Letter, in which I had not only fully considered all your Objections wherein I was particularly concerned, but your whole Fourth Chapter itself, where you pretended that yours is the catholic Church, and that you have had a succession of Pastors, &c. but I have not had one word offered for my satisfaction in these Points, tho' they are in themselves very material, and you were not a little concerned to defend what you had said about them; Your Lay-friend would be ashamed of this shifting.  R. 
Thou perverse man, have I not intimated that it was to no purpose to go about to instruct thee? Prithee whose words were those, I desire to live no longer than I can, if not speak, yet love and admire the Church of England's sense?  L. 
They were my words; and so were these, I have vowed to follow Truth and Charity where ever they led me.  R. 
Is it not plain then, thou didst not know thy own mind?  L. 
It is plain that I did; for I was then persuaded, and so I am still, that in following the Church of England, I follow Truth and Charity. Pray do you think that you shall ever be a Protestant again?  R. 
No friend, I am resolved to live and die a Roman catholic.  L. 
Not right, or wrong, I hope. But at the same time that you are confident of being in the right way, you would not be ashamed to say, that you would follow Truth and Charity, where ever they lead you. I am as well assured that I am in the right, as you are confident that you are so. But if notwithstanding this assurance, I am under a prevailing resolution to follow Truth and Charity, though they should led me out of the way wherein I now am; and you should with your confidence chance to be otherwise resolved, I will make bold to say, that in this respect the Lay-man is the better man, and the better Christian. But the very truth is, you were in pain for an excuse to avoid the answering of the first part of my Letter, and you thought you had found one.  R. 
Thy vanity is so intolerable that I wonder at my own patience to hear thee talk thus. Didst thou not desire without condition or reserve, to die, rather than move one step from whence thou standest?  L. 
No, there was a plain reserve expressed, viz. that of Following Truth and Charity; and this you have in effect confessed by saying that I came with vowed Docility in one hand, and sturdy presumption in the other. Presumption! of what I pray, but of this, that I am in the right way to Heaven? and the more sturdy my presumption of this was, the more charity it had been in you to have broken it by the force of your Reason, if you could. And now if you please, a word or two, whether Papists are not on the uncharitable side.  R. 
Indeed we have your say-so for it, instead of a Proof.  L. 
There is only your say-so that Proof is wanting; now why may not a Lay-man's say-so with Proof, weigh against a Representer's say-so without it? How should a man prove a Point of Doctrine upon your Authors, better than by such Testimonies out of them, as I produced in my Letter, pag. 7.? And for any thing you have yet said, and I believe can say, to clear your Party of damning all Protestants, that one Argument alone, which I produced against you, p. 9. will remain an Invincible proof of Protestants Charity, and Papists want of it. Mark it Representer, Our Charity to you, and your want of it to us, has furnished your Party with an Argument to persuade silly people to be of your Church, because there's a possibility of Salvation there, by the Confession of both Parties: You have neither said that your men have not used this Argument, nor promised that they shall forbear it hereafter; and yet with a boldness peculiar to yourself, you would face us down, That Protestants come not an ace behind Papists in Uncharitableness. Take notice Sir, that you have offered never a Word to this Point, and I am now so well acquainted with your way, that I believe you never will.  R. 
I wonder at thy Confidence, Lay-friend! Do not I say, That it is the common Opinion of Modern and Ancient Schoolmen, that Salvation is possible for such, as through Invincible Ignorance remain separate from the Church?  L. 
When you have produced these Schoolmen, they shall be allowed to speak for themselves, and for no body else; to be sure not for those that use the forementioned Argument, whether they be the Writers that I mentioned, or the present Talkers that run up and down Town and Country, threatening the Vulgar Heads amongst us, with unavoidable Damnation.  R. 
I tell thee, of all those who pronounce so severely against Protestants, that 'tis against Protestants remaining such, as thou hast worded it, p. 8. that is, obstinately and pertinaciously remaining such.  L. 
I think it is now my turn to wonder at my own Patience: What Confidence can be equal to this! Did I, or could I mean by Protestants remaining such, Protestants obstinately and pertinaciously continuing such? But by this time it is as evident as words can make any thing, that you and your Party( if you rightly represent them) damn all Protestants remaining such, without exception.  R. 
No, we except those that can make the Excuse of Invincible Ignorance.  L. 
That is to say, you except none at all, in as much as all Protestants remaining such, are, with you, obstinate and pertinacious; and I would know of you, Whether obstinate heretics can pled Invincible Ignorance? To deal plainly, I have found your Charity and your Sincerity to be much at one; but because, if it be possible, I would sift you to the bottom in this matter, pray will you think of giving me a plain, direct, and full answer to these Questions.  
1. What you mean by Invincible Ignorance, if you think there is such a thing?  
2. Whether it be possible for Protestants remaining such to the last, to die in Invincible Ignorance, or whether the very being of a Protestant, does not, according to you, imply obstinate and pertinacious continuing in Error and Schism?  
3. If it does imply obstinacy, whether it does not exclude the Plea of Invincible Ignorance?  
4. If no Protestant, according to you, can be Invincibly ignorant, what becomes of your Charity?  
5. If Protestants may live and die invincibly ignorant, what comes of your Argument; I mean that Argument mentioned in my Letter, which no provocation will make you take notice of?  
Answer me these questions like a man that designs to serve Truth, and not a Party, and therefore like one that is not afraid to be understood. In the mean time I have just cause to say, that the two sorts of Popery I mentioned with respect to Damning or not Damning us, are as I now see, founded only upon your new pretence of that Charity for us which in reality there is nothing of. If the Papists have been made odious these hundred years for their uncharitableness to Protestants, you are going on to make them odious still for the same uncharitableness; and the disguise of Charity which you have put on to amuse the people, tho' it was put on but t'other day, is worn off already, and the Representer with his new Popery appears as uncharitable as the maintainers of the Old.  
As to your Reflection upon my Friends, by whom I suppose, you mean the honest and Learned Clergy of this Church, That they are put to a hard shift to talk of New Popery; it is easy to say, that if you had not been put to a hard shift to defend the Old, there had been no occasion given to talk of the New. Methinks you should be afraid to mention the difference betwixt the Old and the New, when you are so indebted to us about the Defence of the Bishop of Meaux's Exposition, and the first part of the Papist Mispresented and Represented. We confess that in respect of your practices there is no occasion for this distinction between Old and New Popery, but in respect of your present pretences, there is. For he that looks upon the false Colours that you have lately laid upon your Cause, would either believe that there's a change made amongst you, tho' we know there is none, and some little Reformation, tho' indeed nothing is mended; or else that we had charged you falsely all along; which no body can believe that either understands your practices abroad, or can red your established Offices, or has capacity to understand how the Controversies were stated between your Ancestors and ours at home.  
Now for what remains, pray when you writ next, have a care of supposing a good opinion of the Papists to be a part of my Religion, unless you confess at the same time that it is part of my Religion to have no good opinion of Popery. As for the occasion of my requiring an Infallible assurance in the place to which you refer, I confess a great deal less will serve my turn; only I talked to you as men sometimes do to Artists, in their own Terms. But for that Reflection, that I have but a Fallible persuasion for my Religion, I will compare the Grounds of my persuasion with the Grounds of yours when you please. In a word, if you were to convert Heathens upon any other Grounds than those that support the Faith of Protestants, you would find it as difficult a matter to make Converts to Christianity, as you find it to convert us to Popery. And so farewell till we meet again, which I guess will not be in hast, if you can help it.  
FINIS.