A SPEECH OF William Thomas, Esquire. January, 1641. Concerning the right of Bishops sitting and voting in Parliament: wherein he humbly delivereth his opinion, that their sitting and voting there, is not only inconvenient, and unlawful, but that it is not necessary for the making up of free and full Parliaments; nay, that they have no right thereto, for such reasons as he declareth. Parliaments and Statutes therein made being of force, and no way nulls, notwithstanding their absence, whether voluntary or enforced; and that they have not right to their temporalties, whereby they challenge their right to sit and vote in the House of Lords, Lay peers: And therefore under correction he doth think that the several Petitions of the City of London and others, as unto that, were fairly and justly offered: And as they ought of due right to be admitted and received, so to be speedily debated, and voted, as he humbly conceiveth. Printed at London by Th. Harper. 1641. A SPEECH OF William Thomas, Esquire. I Have lately declared my opinion herein in part as to the inconvenience: I have also expressed that I was of the same mind as to the unlawfulness of the sitting of Bishops in the house of Lords, which I did but briefly touch, therefore desire I may a little further enlarge myself, there being a necessity thereof, (as shall appear) for that in the delivery of that which I am now to speak of, it cannot be avoided. I say now that I do likewise conceive that they have no right to sit there, and in my render and proof hereof I will be as brief as I may, or the matter permit, avoiding repetition of any thing formerly spoken: for I will not Actum agere, or Cramben bis coctam ponere; it hath always been ill relished, and cannot at this time but be most distasteful: for as with Juvenal in his satyrs, Nam quecunque sedens modo legerat haec eadem stans, Proferet atque eadem cantabit versibus lisdem, Occidit miseros Crambe repetita magistros. Answerable to the Greek proverb, {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}. But to the point of the right of Bishops to sit there, which I deny, alleging it to be a mere usurpation, and a possession unduly gained, and wrongfully held, yet such as received interruption: and as King James in his premonition speaketh of the Bishop of Rome and his usurped authority, so may I of their sitting in Parliament: It is not enough (saith he) to say as Parsons doth in his answer to the Lord Cook, that far more Kings of this Country have given many more examples of acknowledging or not resisting, some perhaps lacking the occasion, and some the ability of resisting; for even by the civil Law in the case of a violent intrusion and long wrongful possession, it is enough if it be proved that there hath been made lawful interruption upon convenient occasion. That there hath been interruption, plainly appeareth, for that divers laws have been made in their absence, and yet remain in force, as we may see in jewel, fol. 644. Fox Monuments, 421. Lambert's Perambulation of Kent pag. 221. and others, declaring several Parliaments to be held excluso Clero, the Clergy wholly exempted and left out, as in Ed. 1. Ed. 2. Ed. 3. and other Kings reigns. Nay, they came not into the house many years after the beginning of Parliaments, the first time they were there present being in the reign of Henry the second, as Matthew Paris 185. so that they were not in the reign of Henry the first, or King Stephen. Nor when they came to be members, if such I may call them, or that they had votes, were they to vote in all things, as the twelve Bishops have passed verdict in their petitionary, if I may not rather call it proditory Protestation, which some of them have wisely retracted; in regard whereof, and their former worthy endeavours and expressions in defence of Protestant Religion, I should be most ready to entreat for. But as we cannot deny, but must thankfully acknowledge that the services formerly done by them, were truly honourable, and worthy great reward, but not worthy to countervail with a following wickedness. Reward is proper to well doing, punishment to evil doing, which must not be confounded, no more than good and evil are to be mingled, therefore hath been determined in all wisdoms, that no man because he hath done well before, should have his present evil spared, but rather so much the more punished, as having showed he knew how to be good, would (against his knowledge) be nought. The fact then nakedly without passion or partiality viewed, without question they are culpable. And what Seneca saith of Alexander killing Calisthenes, so may I of the Bishops, Hoc est Alexand, crimen, &c. This is the eternal crime of Alexander, which no virtue nor felicity of his in war shall ever be able to redeem; for as often as any man shall say he slew many thousand Persians, it shall be replied he did so, and he slew Calisthenes, when it shall be said he won all as far as the very Ocean, thereon he adventured with unusual Navies, and extended his empire from a corner of Thrace, to the utmost bounds of the Orient: It shall be said withal but he killed Calisthenes let him have outgone all the ancient examples o: captains and Kings, none of all his acts make so much to his glory, as Calisthenes to his reproach. So after the enumeration of their several demerits from the weal-public, it will be answered, Vulner averunt Parliamentum. I read in Apollodorus de origine Deorum, that when Dionysius had cast Lycurgus into a fury or frenzy, he in this distemper taking a hatchet in his hand whilst he had thought he had smitten down the branch of a vine, with the same hand and hatchet slew his own son. So I fear these Prelates of late have given to their birth and being a deep wound if not mortal, by offering to cut down a branch, a main branch, privilege of Parliaments: Sir Walter Rauleigh in his Preface to his History of the World, speaking of some worldly politic Princes of this and other kingdoms, concludeth that they did bring those things to pass for their enemies, and seen an effect so directly contrary to all their own counsels, as the one could never have hoped for themselves, and the other never have succeeded, if no such opposition had ever been, God hath said it and performed it ever, Perdam sapientiam sapientum, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, Quos vult Deus perdere hos dementat: the application is easily made, shall I go a little further in his expression: To hold the time we have, saith he, we hold all things lawful, and either we hope to hold them for ever, or at least we hope that there is nothing after them to be hoped for. But humbly craving pardon for this digression, I proceed forward; and will return where I left. I say they were not to vote in all things; for by Law they were to avoid the place when the matter came to loss of life or limb, 10. Edw. 4. but as I said before, whole Parliaments have been held without their presence or votes, which God forbid should be nulls. But to return to my first purpose, to declare that they have no right to fit there, I conceive it will not be denied by any: And therefore I do take it as granted, and so need not labour much therein, that their such sitting is by reason and by right of their temporalities, or to speak more properly because of their possessing the same occasioning it, for as by their ecclesiastical function, they have the title Right Reverend, so by their Temporalities they are styled Right Honourable, as we find it in the books of Heralds, and thereby become they Peers of Parliament, and sit with the lay Lords as we find in Kelleway 184. that the Justices say, that our sovereign the King may well hold his Parliament by himself, his Lords temporal and Commons, without his spiritual Lords, neither have they any place in Parliament by reason of their Spiritualty, but by reason of their temporal possessions; therefore it is not such an indubitate right as is alleged, the like whereto we find in the spiritual Peers of France; the three Archbishops of Rheims, Langres, and Laon were Dukes; the three Archbishops of beavoys, Chalon and Noyon, Earls of the same places, & thereby Princes & Peers so made by Charles the great, as Cassaneus; likewise every Bishop of England hath a Barony, Cook Com. fol. 70. Sect. 137. and Mr. Selden Title of Honour, fol. 699. and fol. 702. so that they have not, nor do I conceive that they do challenge their temporalities due to them, Iure Divino: for as an ancient Father answereth such of them as say, Quid mihi & Regi, quid tibi ergo & possessioni per jura Regis possides possessiones, whereto agreeth that memorable speech of King Ed. the third in his Proclamation against that insolent Prelate John Stratford, Archbishop of Canterbury whom he most favoured, and trusted upon some complaints against him, Cum ipse & alli Prelati regni, qui de nobis ecclesiarum suarum temporalia recipiunt ex debito fidelitatis juratae fidem, honorem & Reverentiam debeant exhibere solus ipse pro fide, perfidiam, pro honore contumeliam, & contemptum, pro reverentia reddere non veretur, unde etsi paratissimi & semper fuerimus patres spirituales ut convenit, revereri, corum tamen offensas quos in nostri & regni nostri periculum redundare conspicimus non debemus conniventibus oculus preterire, so that it seemeth at most to be but Iure humano, and not Iure divino, as some do urge and press it. For as I read in Sleyden, speaking of the contention for primacy betwixt Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, and especially with Constantinople, the ruin of all which Rome at last effected. The Bishops of Rome, saith he, amplified with abilities, prevailed, and in the possession of the Church, would erect to themselves a tower, which whether reared by the hands of men, or favour of Princes, now carries the name, as though it were founded by power divine. Now some will retort upon me that therein I confess they hold it though not Iure divino, yet Iure humano, and so de Iure, I am not yet of that mind, but may when I hear reason to convince, with Saint Augustine, Errare possum, hereticus esse nolo. I grant that these temporal Lordships, Lay means, and revenues, are commonly called the possession of the Church; but I think as unproperly so termed, as unjustly by them held and detained from their right owners: for I think I may be bold to say, that the Bishops never had property therein, or right thereto, the same being never intended for them, or given to them, but they were only made stewards and dispensers of these bona sacra, to dispose and distribute them as was directed by the pious donors, to the poor, and other chatitable uses, as I will make appear by fair verdicts and testimonies sans exceptions. The Bishops shall have for their Jury, Bishops, and those not twelve, but twice twelve hundred, and those assembled in several counsels, twelve hundred years ago, or thereabouts, the latest. And when I pass from those primitive times, by other sufficient inquests and Verdicts to make up a dozen of Juries, that these temporal and lay possessions were not so annexed to the Church, but that they might & were severed and aliened away, and that by the very Canons of the Church, and laws ecclesiastical, as will appear to any that will peruse the same. And we may see the same not denied by the Church of England, no not in the time of Popery. And also that it is altogether unlawful for them to intermeddle in temporal affairs, or to sit as Judges, and to vote in Courts of Judicature. When thus it shall appear to be neither Iure divino, no part of spiritual function, nor Iure humano, themselves not being of the first foundation, not entering into Parliaments with the lay Lords, but coming in and sitting there, either by intrusion, or of courtesy: the first in the time of superstition, the later since Reformation, permitted to sit there rather for their opinions and advice in points of Religion, as Judges do of Law, but not to give votes concerning spiritual or temporal affairs: and this their entrance being some half a hundred years after the beginning of Parliaments: Then if neither Iure divino, nor Iure humano, I understand not quo jure, unless it be Iure Luciferiano, whose ambition will challenge a seat that God hath not appointed. It is said that where a Snake may creep in with the head, it will draw with it the whole body: so when the head, the proud Prelacy of Rome, had usurped and entered into temporal government, it drew with it the tail inferior Bishops to trample upon regal and civil power. Thus corrupt and proud Prelacy, like a Serpent, hath a sting as well in the tail as in the head: and this viperous brood hath gnawed and rent the very bowels of the mother Church. For as a Reverend doctor, and worthy Divine hath delivered; When once, saith he, the spiritual authority (which ought to be subordinate to the temporal) began to interpose itself in temporal affairs, and within a while after to oppose itself against the temporal power, it made a ready way to the destruction of both. But let me not be too far misunderstood, as if I should deliver, That Bishops neither are nor can be good; I do not judge all the present bad, nor am I diffident but that (as very many have been heretofore) we may also have many very good hereafter; but Bishops either papal or hypocritical, I utterly disallow, or at least wise dislike. Now if Popish Bishops or their favourers will censure me for over bold sauciness, to use this freedom of speech, which perhaps they will term not only a harsh and malicious render, but an undeserved tax, and a most unjust charge, I will be further bold to tell them, that their own fellow Bishops and such as understood them better, have left recorded of them such things as I should be very unwilling to be uttered by my tongue, or to pass my pen: I will instance in some few of many that I might recite; first Bellarmine, Doth not he in his chronology say, that the Bishops of Rome did degenerate from the piety of their ancestors? And speaking of Hildebrand, saith, That he usurped power to depose Princes, for which all honest and good men detest. And speaking of his own Lord and Master Sixtus the 5. Sine poenitentia vixit, & sine poenitentia moritur, proculdubio in infernam descendit. And after: Quantum capio, quantum sapso, quantum intelligo in infernum desoendu. And doth not Machiaversay as much of his Master: doth not Baronius speaking of Landus, John the tenth, and others possessing the See of Rome, about anno 912. deliver this testimony of those Bishops, Qua tunc facies Ecclesia Romana, &c. What was then the face of the Church of Rome? How filthy, when most potent and most filthy whores ruled all in Rome, at whose appointment Sees were changed, bishoprics translated, and that which is most horrible, and not to be spoken, their lovers (false Popes) were thrust up into Peter's chair, who were not fit to be written in the Catalogue of Bishops, but for the summing or computation of time. Doth not Gerochus Bishop of Richenberg say of those two firebrands of hell, Octavianus, alias Victor, and Alexander the third his competitor, that they were Antichristians, &c. Nay doth not Bishop Theodoricke à Niem, the Pope's Secretary, conclude the Bishops of Rome to be devils incarnate. I agree, saith he, to what the Canonists dispute, that Popes are neither Angels, nor men, but devil's incarnate. Saint Bernard, and many others, speak little less of some Bishops. I am willing to believe that our Bishops be no such as those formerly spoken of, yet I think that they might be well spared in the House of Lords, where they have weaved Spiders webs, and hatched cockatrice eggs; and therefore, under correction, deliver my opinion; Their room it better than their company. Now to draw to a conclusion of this Preamble, and to proceed to the verdicts of the Juries formerly offered, whereof the first is Saint Augustine, and his fellow Bishops. But these Jurors being so many, desire that (being withdrawn) they may have some short time to consider of their inquisition, and return, and they will not stay long before they bring their joint agreeing Verdicts. THE twelve juries. 1 Ancient Fathers. 2 Foragine Bishops. 3 foreign Doctors, and authentic Writers. 4 English Bishops. 5 English Divines. 6 Popes and Cardinals. 7 general counsels. 8 Church Canons, and ecclesiastical Constitutions. 9 Petitions of Lords and Commons in several Parliaments. 10 The Common laws and Statutes of this Realm. 11 The Edicts of Emperors and Kings. 12 Angels, Prophets, and Apostles. ANCIENT FATHERS. St. Augustine. St. Ambrose. St. Jerome. St. Origen. St. Tertullian. St. Gregory Nazianzen. St. Chrysostom. St. Basil. St. Bernard. St. John the Alminer. St. Zeno. St. Spridian. Foreign BISHOPS, AND DIVINES. Hincmar Archbishop of Rheims. Waltram Bishop of Naumberge. Ivo Bishop of Carnotum. Bishop Theodericke à Niem. John Calvin the Divine. William de Occam. Bucer. Nicholaus de Clemangiis. Petrus Damianus. Johannes de Parisiis. Auentinus. Franciscus à Victoria. Hildebert de Turim. Foreign DOCTORS, AND authentic writers. Albertus Magnus. Albertus Pighius. Thomas Waldensis. Guntherus Ligurianus. Cornelius Jansenius. Dureus a Jesuit. Duarenus. George Hiemburge. Jacobus Almain. Johannes Maior. Marfilius Patavinus. Antonius Rosselus. Potho. ENGLISH BISHOPS. St. Aidan. St. Anselm. St. Thomas Becket. B. Thomas Arundel. B. Matthew Parker. B. Hooper. B. Hugh Latimer. B. John Elmer. B. Thomas Bilson. B. John Bridges. B. Alley. B. Gardener. B. Bonner. B. John Jewell. ENGLISH DIVINES. Petrus Blecensis de Bath. John Wicliffe. William Swinderley. William Fish. William Tindall. Doctor Barnes. John fresh. Thomas Becon. Robert Parsons. George Blackwell. Nicholas Sanders. Fox in his Acts and Monuments. POPES AND CARDINALS. P. Gregorius. P. Damasus. P. Nicholas. P. Celestine. P. Adrianus. 4. P. Celestine. P. Paulus. Ottobanus Legat. Ca. Cusanus. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cameracum. Ca. Baronius. Ca. Bellarminus. General counsels. C. Antioch. C. Chalcedon. C. Carthage 3. C. Carthage 4. C. Carthage 6. C. Constance. C. Macrense. C. Reginoburg. C. Rheims. C. Laodum. C. Tours. C. Trent. Church CANONS AND Constitutions. Gratian. Linwood. Ivo Carnotensis. Johannes Loughconcius. Hostiensis. Summa Angelica. Gregory. Silverius. Paulus. Ottobon London 1268. London 1537. Card. Poole London 1556. Petitions Of Lords and Commons in several Parliaments in the reigns of Henry 3. Edward 3. Richard 2. Henry 5. Henry 8. Charles 1. The rest are made up by this present Parliament. The Common laws and Statutes of this realm. Common Law. Regist. pars 1. f. 187. Quia non est consonum. Kelway 184. The justices say, &c. Statute. Ed. 1. Excluso Clero. 14. Ed. 2. Excluso Clero. 38. Ed. 3. Excluso Clero. 11. Rich. 2. Excluso Clero. 10. Ed. 4. Excluso Clero. 14. Hen. 8. Excluso Clero. 27. H. 8. 34. H. 8. 35. H. 8. 3. E. 6. 6. E. 6. 2. Mary. 8. Eliz. The Edicts and Proclamations of Emperors and Kings. E. Theodosius. E. Honorius. E. Justinian. E. Hen. 4. K. Bohemia. K. Kich. 1. K. Henry 3. K. Edw. 1. K. Edw. 2. K. Edw. 3. K. Henry 8. K. Edw. 6. Angels, Prophets, and Apostles, and sacred Writers. Moses. Josua. Samuel. Ezekiel. Hosea. Haggai. Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Peter. Paul. Angels, (as Bishop jewel out of Parisiensis, Polycronicon and others,) did pronounce woes to the Church, for that by the donation of Lordships and Possessions by Constantine to the Church of Rome, poison was poured thereon. O let this venom Lordships and Temporalities be taken away, and removed from Episcopacy, for it hath well near poisoned and destroyed it: Now I desire to offer two or three words in my own behalf: Am I become an enemy to Episcopacy, because I speak the truth? Do I not rather declare myself a wellwisher, if not a firm friend to Episcopacy, desiring only the cure and preservation thereof? My voice is not like to that of Edom in the day of Jerusalem, down with it, down with it even to the ground, But the voice of Judah at the re-edifying of the Lord's House, Grace, Grace, I mean really spiritual, not Lordly titular Grace, I do not say destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, but rather destroy it not, for there is a blessing in it, the fruit is good for meat, and the leaves for medicine, I am not for eradicating or demolishing, but my wish is and it ever shall be my endeavour to repair the breaches of Zion, and renew the beauty of the Sanctuary, I do not mean it beautified with Images and pictures, paintings & pinnacles, for quo nudior co venustior. In my opinion & conceivement, I should express a cruel pity to my dearest darling being diseased or desperately sick, if I should forbear in myself, or hinder in others the curing of what I so dearly affected and professed so to do, because I hear it cry out, or perceive impatiency in him to endure the suffering of the cure. God forbid I should be deemed an enemy to the Church for wishing and advising it with Adulterous Israel, Hosea 2.7. to return to her first husband, for then was it better with her then now. Mild Lenitives are not always to be applied, but sometimes sharp corrosives, there must be as well wine to search, as oil to supple, there is a crudelitas parcens, as a misericordia puniens, (saith Saint Augustine) now some will term me though not harmful in regard of disability, yet in respect of will to hurt a hot adversary, yet others that perhaps have not so ill an opinion of me, will censure me likewise to be but a cold friend, and say with Erasmus, Vno spiritu efflas calidum, & frigidum, or with Seneca, de beneficiis call it panem lapidosum, which Plautus delivereth in like words, — Manus altera panem, Altera fert lapidem.— As if I did claw the head with the one hand, and smite the cheek with the other, but passing by this, me thinks I hear some tell me with Cicero lib. 1. Tuskulan, pugnantia te loqui non vides, ubi est acumen tuum, you delivered in another Speech that the Bishops entered members of the House of Lords at the first Parliament, and continued there till this last; thereto I answer the scope, drift or end of that delivery was to declare their demeanour and actions in Parliament, not the right of sitting or voting, and I only as I remember said that it was not denied, but though it should be granted, was most inconvenient and hurtful many such and other objections and carpings I shall at leisure think of, and yield answer unto. And whereas I have made a vainglorious flourish (as it will be termed) by offering so many Juries and Testimonies, I conceive it will be judged an offer rather ad specimen then ad vulnus, as Cicero de Oratore: like that of Cyrus' King of Persia (as Julius Frontinus recordeth) besieging the City of Sardis, who did put upon long poles the images of men, arming them like Persian soldiers to terrify Croesus and the City of Sardis; or else my arguments and testimonies shall have an ironical reply, in the words of Tertullian, Si non possunt valere, quia magna non sunt valebunt forsan quia multa sunt; well granting some of these to be but Milites levis Armaturae, (as I conceive they will not prove to be) yet undoubtedly some of the rest will charge with a sharper assault. Then to draw to a full conclusion, let papal Episcopalians censure myself and arguments as they please, it shall no way move me, I shall still possess my soul in patience, though they account me but a Phylotus Cous, who (as mentioneth Athenaeus) was of so light and slender a body that he had weight of lead tied to his heels, left by a blast of wind he should have been blown away, and my arguments or testimonies to be clouds without water, titles without evidences like an apothecary's boxes that have goodly and fair names without, but have not a dram of any thing good within, I say it little nay nothing troubleth or moveth me to hear some say that my Axe hath no edge, or others that the same is but borrowed, or that some others, no less maliciously then wrongfully charge and tax me with hypocrisy and vainglory, affirming most unjustly of me, that which Ireneus did most justly of some heretics of his time, to be elatum mihi placentem Hypocritam Quaestus gratiae, & inanis gloriae operantem. But with Seneca, Conscientia satisfaciamus: nihil in famam laboremus sequatur vel mala dum bene merearis. Let us satisfy our consciences, and not trouble ourselves with fame: be it never so ill, it is to be despised, so we deserve well. And as he elsewhere: Laudari à bonis timeo, & amari à malis detestor. FINIS.