A CHRISTIAN LETTER of certain English Protestants, unfeigned favourers of the present state of Religion, authorized and professed in ENGLAND: unto that Reverend and learned man, Mr R. Hoo. requiring resolution in certain matters of doctrine (which seem to overthrow the foundation of Christian Religion and of the church among us) expressly contained in his five books of Ecclesiastical Policy. 1599 A Christian LETTER of certain English Protestants, unfeigned favourers of the present state of religion, authorized and professed in England: unto that Reverend and Learned man, Master R. Hoo. requiring resolution in certain matters of doctrine (which seem to overthrow the foundation of Christian Religion, and of the Church among us) expressly contained in his five books of Ecclesiastical Policy. WHEN men dream they are asleep, and while men sleep the enemy soweth tars, and tars take root and hinder the good corn of the Church, before it be espied. Therefore Wise men through silence permit nothing loosely to pass away as in a dream. Your offer then, Maist. Hoo. is godly and laudable, to inform men of the estate of the church of God established among us. For the Teachers of righteous things, are highly to be commended. And he that leadeth men rightly to judge of the church of God, is to be beloved of all men. Howbeit sometimes goodly promises are mere formal, and great offers serve only to hoodwink such as mean well. And as by a fair show of wishing well, our first parents were foully deceived: so is there a cunning framed method, by excellency of words, & enticing speeches of man's wisdom, to beguile and bewitch the very Church of God. And such as are used for this purpose come in sheeps clothing. For he translateth himself into an Angel of light, who blindeth all men with utter darkness. When we therefore, your loving cuntrymen (unfeignedly fovoring the present state, and embracing from our hearts the Gospel of Christ, as it is preached and professed in England, being ready every hour to give up our lives for God's glory: and the honour of our Queen) having so goodly a champion to offer combat in our defence, were made very secure, and by the sweet sound of your melodious style, almost cast into a dreaming sleep: We happily remembering your Preface that there might be some other cause, opened at the length our heavy eyes, and casting some more earnest and intentive sight into your manner of fight, it seemed unto us that covertlie and underhand you did bend all your skill and force against the present state of our English church: and by colour of defending the discipline and governement thereof, to make questionable and bring in contempt the doctrine and faith itself. For we saw the theme and the cause you have in hand, to be notable simples, whereof a skilful popish apothecary can readily make some fine potion or sweet smelling ointment, to bring heedless men into the pleasant dream of well-weening: while they closely set on fire the house of God. And may we not truly say, that under the show of inveighing against Puritans, the chiefest points of popish blasphemy, are many times and in many places, by divers men not obscurely broached; both in Sermons and in Writing: to the great grief of many faithful subjects, who pray for the blessed and peaceable continuance of her most gracious Majesty, and of the estate of the Church of JESUS Christ; as it is now established among us. And verily such a thing offered itself unto our eyes, in reading your books, and we had not skill how to judge otherwise; of the handling of your pen and of the scope of your matter. Notwithstanding because rash judgement may prejudice honest travails, and faithful labourers may have their unadvised slips, and we could not tell how zeal, love, or glory might carry a man of such towardly and excellent gifts, in the first showing of himself to the world; or that an earnest striving & bending yourself in heat of disputation against the one side, might dazzle your eyes, and draw your hand at unawares to far and too favourable to the other side; or else peradventure we might mistake your meaning, and so we should do you wrong against our wills. We thought it therefore our part, in regard of our duty to the Church; and most agreeing to charity, both for your credit and our ease; in all christian love to entreat you, that as you tender the good estate of Christ's church among us, and of thousands converted to the gospel, you would in like public manner (but plainly and directly) show unto us and all English Protestants, your own true meaning, and how your words in divers things do agree with the doctrine established among us. And that not only for avoiding of offence given to many godly and religious Christians: but also that the Atheists, Papists, and other hereticques, be not encouraged by your so hard and so harsh style (beating as it were, as we verily think, against the very heart of all true christian doctrine, professed by her Majesty and the whole state of this Realm) to despise and set light, by her sacred Majesty, the reverend Fathers of our Church and the whole cause of our religion. We have made choice therefore of a few principal things, which trouble many godly minded christians, who advisedly read over your books, that by the sincere answering and upright clearing of them, you might satisfy us all, both in them and in all the rest, and free yourself from all suspicion of falsehood or treachery, and make us able to give a reason of defence unto all such as stumble at your writings. And for your better ease herein, and our more ready satisfaction, we have compared your positions and assertions in your long discourses, unto the articles of religion set forth Ann. Dni 1562. and confirmed by Parliament the 13. of her majesties most blessed & joyful reign, and unto the Apologies of such Reverend Fathers and chief pillars of our church, as from time to time since the Gospel began to shine among us, have written and preached, and every way laboured to advance and defend the same, with the Liturgy & church government established among us. If you therefore good Ma. Hoo. will make it to appear to the world, that in these points you are all one in judgement with the church of England, and that your such speeches wherewith your godly brethren are grieved, may bear such sense and meaning: or else (as every humble christian will do) freely and ingenuously acknowledge your unwilling oversight, or at the least (which we undoubtedly believe you will never be able) show plainly and by good demonstration, that all our Reverend Fathers have hitherto been deceived; then shall we hold ourselves very well contented and satisfied. Hoping therefore of your charitable, direct, plain, sincere, and speedy answer, we tender here our doubts unto your christian consideration, and crave your brotherly resolution in manner and form following. One foundation of christian faith professed by 1. The Deity of the Son. the English church is this: a Artic. 1. de ●ide in sacrosanctaram Trinitatem. There is one true and living God. etc. And b Quicunque vult, in the book of common prayer. Although we acknowledge the three persons to be God and Lord, yet the Godhead of the Father and the Son is all one. etc. Here we crave of you Master Hoo. to explain your own meaning where you say, b book 5. pag. 113. The Father alone is originally that Deity which Christ originally is not. How the Godhead of the Father and of the Son be all one, and yet originally not the same Deity: And then teach us how far this differeth from the heresy of Arius, Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 5. who sayeth of God the Son: There was when he was not, who yet granteth that he was before all creatures, of things which were not. Whether such words weaken not the eternity of the Son in the opinion of the simple, or at the least make the Son inferior to the Father in respect of the Godhead: or else teach the ignorant, there be many Gods. Another foundation of our belief: a Artic. 2. & 5. The Son is the word of the Father, 2 The coeternity of the Son, & proceeding of the holy Ghost. from everlasting begotten of the Father. etc. and the holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and the Son. Where we hold the coeternity of the Son with the Father by express literal mention in the Scriptures found in these words: b Prover. 8. 2● The Lord hath possessed me in the beginning of his way. etc. And again: c joh. 1. 1. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. etc. And again: d john 17. 5. Glorify me thou Father with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And we hold the proceeding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Son, by like express words of holy scripture: namely, e joh. 15. 2●. When the Comforter shall come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth of the Father. etc. Show we pray you your full meaning where you say: a Book 1. pag. 86. 87. The coeternity of the Son of God with his Father and the proceeding of the spirit from the Father and the Son, are in scripture no where to be found by express literal mention. Whether there be not express literal mention of these two points in the former alleged places, and whether such manner of speeches may not work a scruple in the weak christian, to doubt of these articles; or at the least so underprop the popish traditions, that men may the rather favour their allegations, when they see us fain to borrow of them. The Church of England professeth: f Artic. 6. De divinis scriptures. Holy Scripture containeth all things which are necessary to salvation, The holy scripture contain all things necessary to salvation. so that whatsoever is neither read in it, neither can be proved thereby, is not to be exacted of any man, that it should be believed as an article of faith, or should be thought to be required unto the necessity of salvation. You on the other side say: b Book 2. pag. 122. In actions of this kind (speaking of direct, immediate, and proper necessity final to salvation) our chiefest direction is from scripture▪ and again: The insufficiency of the light of nature is by the light of scripture fully and perfectly supplied. And in another place: c Book 1. pag. 88 It sufficeth that nature and scripture do serve in such full sort, that they both jointly and not severally either of them be so complete, that unto everlasting felicity we need not the knowledge of any thing more than these two. etc. Where you seem unto us, that although you exclude traditions as a part of supernatural truth, yet you infer that the light of nature teacheth some knowledge natural which is necessary to salvation, and that the Scripture is a supplement and making perfect of that knowledge. Which being compared unto pag. 127. Lin. 36. where you affirm that the want of moral virtues exclude from salvation. Last. lin. And pag. 82. where you make faith hope & charity, to be taught only by supernatural truth. It seemeth to us that natural light, teaching moral virtues, teacheth things necessary to salvation, which yet is not perfect without that which supernatural knowledge in holy Scripture reveileth. Hear we pray you to explain your own meaning, whether you think that there be any natural light, teaching knowledge of things necessary to salvation, which knowledge is not contained in holy scripture: if you think, no: How then say you before: Not the scripture severally, but nature and scripture jointly, be complete unto everlasting felicity. If you say yea: how then agree you with the belief of our Church: which affirmeth, that holy scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation? And here we pray you to show us, whether nature reach any thing touching Christ, whether without or beside him any thing be necessary: whether that in him we be not a Coloss. 2. 10. copleate. lastly, whether you mean that the knowledge of human wisdom concerning God, have any thing not expressed in Scripture, or that moral virtues are any where rightly taught but in holy scriptu. or that wheresoever they be taught, they be of such necessity, that the want of them exclude from salvation, and what scripture approveth such a saying, or that cases and matters of salvation be determinable by any other law then of holy scripture. And then tell us how you understand these places following, and how they agree with this your position of the light of nature and moral virtues: b Rom. 3. 27. A man is justified by faith without the works of the law. c Act. 4. 12. Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name which is given under heaven amongst men by which we must be saved. d 1 Cor. 2. 14. The natural man perceiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him. etc. e joh. 3. 3. Except a man be borne again, he can not see the kingdom of God. The Reverend Fathers of our church, 4. Holy scripture above the Church. to avouch our forsaking of the Antichristian synagogue of Rome, & cleaving to the scriptures of God, do so far make the judgement of the scriptures above the Church, that with the ancient Fathers they say: a Reply of Bb. jewel against Harding, arti. 15 pag. 537. In time of dissension it is most behoveful for the people to have recourse unto the scriptures; and that we may in no wise believe the Churches themselves, unless they say and do such things as be agreeable to the Scriptures. b Rejoind. to Brist. reply by W. Fulk. pa. 84. The trial of scriptures is necessary to discern the true church from all false congregations, which all boast of the spirit of truth, as much as the true church. And c ibid. pag. 99 Only scriptures are a sufficient warrant to every Christian to try what is the word of God, and what is the word of man. etc. But you Maist. Hoo. do say: d Book 2. pag. 102. It is not the word of God which doth or possibly can assure us, that we do well to think it is his word. And again, e Book 2. pag. 146. By experience we all know, that the first outward motive leading men so to esteem of the scripture, is, the authority of God's Church. And a little before: f lin. 38. Scripture teacheth us that saving truth which God hath discovered to the world by revelation; and it presumeth us taught otherwise, that itself is divine & sacred. Here we beseech you Mai. Hoo. that if as our Reverend Fathers affirm, we may no otherwise believe the Churches themselves, but as they agree to the scriptures, & that by them the true church is to be discerned, etc. and that only scriptures, sufficiently warrant the trial of God's word, what certainty of salvation we can have, in any presuming or motive by the church, if the scripture cannot assure us that it is the word of God. Are not these contradictory? Tell us therefore if your meaning be not that the authority of the church must do that which the scripture cannot do, namely to assure us that they are the word of God. And our reverend Fathers say, The church can not so assure us, unless we try it first to be the true church by the scriptures: Are not these contradictory? They say: Only Scriptures warrant us what is the word of God, you say they cannot assure us of the word of God, but presume us to be taught that thing otherwise: Are not these contradictory? Have we not here good cause to suspect the underpropping of a popish principle concerning the church's authority above the holy Scripture, to the disgrace of the English church? If not, then reconcile your assertions unto theirs, and show mercy and truth unto our reverend Fathers. And therewithal we pray you to expound either by experience or otherwise; Whether the word of God was received in the world, and believed by men, by the virtue and authority of the witnesses, either Prophets or Apostles, or the holy church, or that such witnesses were not esteemed for the words sake: and the Church always approved both by God & faithful men, as the same was described, commended, and ordered by the rule of holy scripture. What think you of the a Esaie. 52. 6, 14. beautiful feet that bring glad tidings, and of the Kings, who for reverence stopped their mouths at it. b Act. 2. 37. and The people pricked in heart at Peter's preaching. And the men of Berea searching the scriptures: whether that in all these, b 17. 11. the testimony of man, as Prophet, Apostle or church did authorize the word of God, that it was believed? c 1 Cor. 2. 4. or the demonstration of the spiritual power of the word itself? And was not this the meaning of Saint Paul when rejecting letters of commendation, he affirmeth that the Corinthians d 1 Cor. 3. 1. 2. were his epistle written in their hearts, which is understood and read of all men. etc. Doth he not prefer the power of the word, testifying of itself, by the e Psal. 19 7. conversion of the heart, before all other motives, and by it he himself was authorized in their consciences, and not it by him. lastly, show us where you find that the scripture presumeth us taught otherwise, etc. What think you? Is it of man, or by man? or of God, that it so presumeth: or do not you presume against the word of God, to set up man's testimony, when we know that the a 1 john 5. 9 testimony of God is greater. When the jews and the Gentiles did both oppose themselves against the gospel, what did it presume upon? was it not of itself b Heb. 4. 12. the two edged sword, perching into the marrow of the bones: c Psal. 2. the rod of iron to crush in pieces the Nations, and the d 2 Cor. 10. 3. 4. armour spiritual to bring in subjection every thought unto the obedience of the knowledge of God? The Church of England professeth this ground of faith: a Artic 10. De libero arbitrio. Without the grace of God (which is by Christ) preventing us, 5 Of free will. that we will; and working together while we will; we are nothing at all able to do the works of piety which are pleasing and acceptable to God. You to our understanding, writ clean contrary: namely, b Book 1. pag. 60, 61. there is in the will of man naturally that freedom, whereby it is apt to take or refuse any particular object, whatsoever being presented unto it. And a little after: There is not that good which concerneth us, but it hath evidence enough for itself, If reason were diligent to search it out. Hear we pray your help to teach us: how will is apt (as you say) freely to take or refuse any particular object what soever, & that reason by diligence is able to find out any good concerning us: If it be true that the Church of England professeth, that without the preventing and helping grace of God, we can, will, and do nothing pleasing to God. To which belief of England the scripture accordeth, showing that without the said grace of God, a Ephe. 2. 5. we are dead in sins and trespasses: b 2 Cor. 3. 5. we are not sufficient of ourselves to think any thing. c Phil. 2. 13. It is God which worketh in us the will and the deed, even of his good pleasure. Show us therefore how your positions agree with our church and the scriptures. If you say you understand reason and will help by the grace of God, then tell us how we may perceive it by your writing: which putteth difference betwixt natural and supernatural truth & laws. If you mean reason uncorrupted, not respecting how in truth we are by Adam's fall perverted, may we not suspect that your whole discourse is subtle and cunning, because you pretend the natural way of finding out laws by reason to guide the will unto that which is good, pag. 59 62. 63. etc. or at the least frivoulous, seeing man hath no such reason without the grace of GOD, if you mean without the grace of God, and in the state of corruption, as in deed all men naturally now are. Hear we desire to be taught how such sayings overthrow not our English creed and the holy scripture in this matter, and therewithal show us the true meaning of Saint Paul, and how he fitteth your discourse in this place, namely when he saith. Rom. 8. 7. The wisdom of the flesh is ennimitie against God, for it is not subject unto the law of God, neither in deed can be. The Church of England believeth, a Artic. 11. De hominis justificatione. Only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour jesus Christ, a Of faith and works. through faith and not for works and our merits we are accounted righteous before God. You say, b Book 1. pag. 82. The way of supernatural duty which to us he hath prescribed, our Saviour in the Gospel of Saint John doth note, terming it by an excellency the work of God. This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent; not that God doth require nothing at the hands of men unto happiness, saving only a naked belief (for hope and charity we may not exclude) but that without belief all other things are as nothing, and it is the ground of those other divine virtues. And again, c Book 1. pag. 95. The same things divine law also teacheth, as at large we have showed, it doth all parts of moral duty; whereunto we all of necessity stand bound in regard of life to come. And in another place, d Book 5. pag. 221. Every man's religion is in himself the wellspring of all other sound and sincere verities, from whence both here in some sort, and hereafter more abundantly their full joy and felicity ariseth: because while they live, they are blessed of God, and when they die, their works follow them. And yet again you say, e Book 5. pag. 208. I will not dispute whether truly it may not be said, that penitent both weeping and fasting, are means to blot out sin, means▪ whereby through God's unspeakable and undeserved mercy, we obtain and procure to ourselves pardon which attainment unto any gracious benefit by him bestowed, the phrase of antiquity useth to express by the name of merit: Hear we desire to be resolved how these your assertions can stand with the doctrine and belief of the church of England; faith only justifieth. To which the holy Scripture accordeth, saying: a Galat. 3. 21. 22 If there had been a law that could have given life, surely righteousness had been by the law: but the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. And again: b Rom. 4. 6. David declareth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. For if from sound and sincere virtues (as you say) full joy and felicity ariseth, and that we all of necessity stand bound unto all parts of moral duty in regard of life to come, and God requireth more at the hands of men unto happiness, than such a naked belief; as Christ calleth the work of God: alas what shall we poor finful wretches do, who can have no confidence in the flesh being far from those sound and sincere virtues, and from many (that we say not all) parts of moral duty, in such measure, as the holy, just & good law of God doth require them; yea our very righteous works we find to be stained like a filthy cloth: when we compare them unto that absolute righteousness which is indeed pure & unspotted before the eyes of God; therefore we claim nothing by any duty we do or can do, or any virtue which we find in ourselves, but only by that naked faith which is the work of God in us, and maketh us believe in him whom he hath sent, and by his stripes only we hope to be healed. Tell us therefore by sound and plain demonstration what we may trust to, whether the English belief be imperfect, without some necessary additament: whether you think that not faith alone, but faith hope and love, be the formal cause of our righteousness, whether a man that hath faith can also do all the works of the law, and so make up that which is wanting in his naked faith: or that if he cannot, but falleth into sin seven times, yea sometimes into great sins, whether his faith may not save him. lastly, whether there be not other sufficient causes to induce a christian to godliness & honesty of life, such as is the a Mat. 5. 16. glory of God our Father: b Rom. 12. 1. his great mercies in Christ: c 1 joh. 4. 11. 19 his love to us: d 1 Pet. 2. 12. 15 example to others, but that we must do it to merit or to make perfitt that which Christ hath done for us. And lastly, show us that phrase of antiquity whether it were in the Apostles time among the sounder christians, or in what time immediately following; or do you not closely make the popish doctrine of merit by works at the least to be tolerable, to the disgrace of our English creed? The church of England professeth, 7 The virtue of works. that a Artic. 12. 13. Good works, the fruits of faith and following the justified cannot abide the severity of God's judgement, and that The works which are done before the grace of Christ, are not only not acceptable to God, but also have the nature of sin. You say: b Book 1. pag. 63. The most certain token of evident goodness, is, If the general persuasion of all men do so account it. And again: c Ibid. pa. 68 Only man's observation of the law of his nature is Righteousness; only man's transgression sin. d Book 2. pag. 122. God's very commandments in some kind as namely his precepts comprehended in the law of nature, may otherwise be known then only by scripture, and that to do them, howsoever we know them must needs be acceptable in his sight. Here we desire to be instructed, how the goodness of these actions done by the light of nature, are to be understood, either simply in themselves, as nature only declareth and teacheth; or as men following the light of nature, judge of them and so do them: if you answer only as nature teacheth without regard of man doing according to nature, then can we not understand your discourse, which seemeth to us to teach, that by doing such operations of goodness as nature teacheth, though he have no further teaching, it is righteousness and pleaseth God. If you mean this second, than I pray you, in what sense can you call that righteousness in man, which our Church calleth sin: and do you not establish the Romish doctrine of pura naturalia and works of congruity? And if that be true which you say, that men doing such works, be acceptable in God's sight, do you not make the Church of England to hold an error, when they say they are not acceptable to God. The church of England professeth, 8 Works of supererogation. that a Artic. 14. Works of supererogation cannot be taught without arrogancy and wickedness. And you say: b Book 2. pag. 122. God approved much more than he commandeth. Open unto us then that seeing you seem to teach that the order and course of all things supernatural, natural, sensible and reasonable, is a divine law, and so by it he commandeth according to every kind: and that in the former articles you appear to us to scatter the profane grains of popery, whether we may not justly judge, that in thus speaking you sow the seed of the doctrine which leadeth men to those arrogant works of supererogation. If not, show your own meaning, and how you esteem of this Article of our belief. The Church of England holdeth, 9 None free from all sin that a Artic. 15. Christ only being the immaculate Lamb, was without sin, and that we which are baptised and regenerated in him, do all offend in many things. You say: b Book 5. pag. 102. Although we cannot be free from all sin collectivelie in such sort, that no part thereof shallbe found inherent in us, yet distributivelie at the least all great and grievous actual offences, as they offer themselves one by one, both may and aught to be by all means avoided. So that in this sense to be preserved from all sin, is not impossible. Hear we demand to be informed, that if all offend in many things, and to say otherwise be a lie, as our English creed affirmeth, how your saying can be true, that it is possible to avoid all great and grievous sins. And what many things they be whereof the scripture speaketh: Whether it meaneth not actual offences, great and grievous; but that some may be excepted in regard of great sins: or whether you mean, that it is possible for all christians to be preserved from all great sins: and if so, why should it not be as possible; from all small offences: and if from small and great, why do we not keep our rob pure and without spot until the coming of Christ, and so be justified more and more by our works, as the popish Cannons teach: but pray by Christ's commandment every day, Forgive us our trespasses. The Church of England believeth, 10 Predestination. that a Artic. 17. De Praedestinatione. Predestination unto life is the eternal purpose of God, whereby before the foundations of the world were laid, he constantly decreed by his counsel unto us unknown to deliver from the curse & destruction them whom he chose in Christ out of mankind, & (as vessels made unto honour) through Christ to bring them to eternal salvation. Whereupon they who are endowed with so excellent benefit of God, are called according to his purpose, and that by his spirit working in a fit time. But you Mai. Hoo. seem to us, to affirm contrary, when you say: b Book 5. pag. 104. If any man doubt how God should accept such prayers in case they be opposite to his will, or not grant them, if they be according to that himself willeth: Our answer is, that such suits God accepteth, in that they are conformable to his general inclination, which is that all men might be saved: yet always he granteth them not, for so much as there is in God a more private occasioned will, which determineth the contrary. Hear we beg your aid to make manifest unto us, how God eternally predestinateth by a constant decree, them whom he calleth and saveth (as our Church professeth) and yet hath, as you say, a general inclination that all men might be saved: Whether he foresaw not something that occasioned his will otherwise; so that he elected not all, but only them whom he calleth and saveth, or that of his general inclination he elected all men, but some more privately occasioned him in time to alter his will, and to refuse them; or that some men gave God occasion that he saveth them, though he never decreed it before the foundations of the world. What meant the blessed Apostle where he sayeth: a Rom. 8. 3● Whom he predestinated them also he called: and whom he called them also he justified. etc. Is this to be understood of a constant decree, as we say, or of an inclination? He sayeth: b Ephe. 1. 1● God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Is this to be understood, that upon occasion sometimes he either altereth his counsel, or decreeth something which he had not thought upon before. Saint james saith, that c 1 jam. 1. 1●. In God there is no variableness nor shadow of turning. Is not this more than a variableness or shadow of turning to incline one way, and upon occasion to decree another. Do not these words of yours give some place unto chance and fortune: Do they not make GOD as a man not of an all-sufficient knowledge, wisdom, and counsel, but inclinable some one way, till by occasion he find a more better way. Where is that God you speak of in your d pag. 5●. first book, of whom and through whom and for whom are all things. And where is that law by which he worketh, which you there call aeternal, and therefore can have no show or colour of mutability. Have we not cause to fear that the witty schoolmen have seduced you, and by their conceited distinctions made you forget, That you are neither able nor worthy to open and look into the book of God's law, by which he guideth the world. And yet you will say, There is in God an occasioned will. Good Mai. Hoo. help us here, and show us how we may think, that you incline not to the error of popery touching works foreseen, and that you favour our church's belief. The Church of England doth confess, 11 The visible church, and of the church of Rome. a Artic. 19 De Ecclesia. That the church of Christ is a company of faithful people, among whom the pure word of God is preached, & the Sacraments rightly administered according to Christ's institution, etc. and that the church of Rome hath erred, not only in manners & ceremonies, but also in matters of faith. Which by the Reverend Fathers of our Church is expounded thus: b Bb. jewel reply against Harding. Artic. 2. pag. 99 Without Christ the church is no church, neither hath any right or claim without his promise; nor any promise without his word. c ibid. Artic. 6. pag. 366. The church of Rome being as it is now utterly void of God's word, is as a lantern without light. d Apolog. eccle. Angl. pag. 191. print. 1581. We have departed from that church which they have made a den of thieves, and in which they have left nothing sound, or like to a church; & which themselves did confess to have erred in many things, even as Lot in old time out of Sodom, or Abraham out of Chaldea, etc. e Noel. confut. Dorman. ca 1. pag. 57 The general error and defection of the popish Synagogue from Christ his true Church foreshowed in the scriptures, is now manifest to the world by dissension from Christ and his holy Apostles doctrine, and from the doctrine of the churches by the Apostles founded. And for this cause, they call the heresy of that Romish church Apostasia Romanensium ab Ecclesia, The f Fulk. ad cavil. T. Stapleton, ferè in princi. Apostasy of the Romish rabble from the church. And they call the Pope Apostatam, Antichristum, an Apostata, Antichrist. And bind up in one bundle g D. Whitgift pag. 178. Idolaters, superstitious persons, papists and Atheists; constantly affirming, that h W. Fulk. Rejoind. to Brist. reply to pa. 272. among English christians no other thing is meant by the name of papists, than heretics and traitors, Antichristians and Apostates, enemies to God, their Prince, and their country. Now we find in you these peremptory affirmations: i Book 3. pag. 130. With Rome we dare not communicate concerning sundry her gross & grievous abominations, yet touching those main parts of christian truth, wherein they constantly still persist, we gladly acknowledge them to be of the family of jesus Christ. And a little before: We hope that to reform ourselves, if at any time we have done amiss, is not to sever ourselves from the church we were of before. In the church we were, and we are so still. And in another place you would have men, a Book 5. pag. 188. To acknowledge that it is due to the church of Rome to be held & reputed a part of the house of God, and a limb of the visible church of Christ. And your principal reason seemeth to be because you say: b Book 5. pag. 186. That which separateth utterly: That which cutteth off clean from the visible church of Christ, is plain Apostasy; direct denial, utter rejection of the whole christian faith, as far as the son is professedly different from infidelity. Hear you seem unto us to come forth, as an other Elias, to bring again the people, unto the God of their Fathers. They say that the church of Rome hath erred, not only in manners, but also in matters of faith. You; you call them back and say: Sundry gross and grievous abominations. They say that the church of Rome, as it is now, is utterly void of God's word; as a lantern without light, and that it is a den of thieves, in which they have left nothing sound, or like a church, but is like Sodom. etc. You call them back, and say: That they have main parts of christian truth wherein they constantly persist. They affirm, and that constantly, that there is a general error and defection of the church of Rome foreshowed in the scriptures, and therefore called them Apostates, and matched them with Atheists. seeing it is now made manifest to the world, that they are departed from the doctrine of Christ & his Apostles, etc. you call them back and say, we gladly acknowledge them to be of the family of jesus Christ, and to be held and reputed a part of the house of God, and a limb of the visible church of Christ. And therefore you are bold to affirm, that we sever not ourselves from the church we were of before: In the Church we were & we are so still. We are here in a straight except you help us out. For if we believe you, we must think our reverend Fathers to have misledd us all this while; either of malice, or ignorance; if we believe them we must think that Mai. Hoo. is very arrogant and presumptuous to make himself the only Rabbi. We pray you therefore to reconcile these two judgements, that men fall not away to look back into Egypt, or else explain your mind further, & show us some clear demonstration of that you intend; whether you be not sorry that we are departed from the unity of that Sea, or that you think they err not in matters of faith; & that all these great disputes about the church and bloody dissensions and conflicts come by oversight and too great zeal, and for want of knowledge in our Reverend Fathers, & in all those millions of learned men, that have frankly given their blood for the detection and departing from that church, as from Antichrist and an Apostata. And here we pray you to show us out of divine truth, your rule to discern a Congregation to be a member of the visible Church: whether whosoever holdeth any one professeth truth differing from infidelity, may be reputed a member of the visible church, and whether you mean by infidelity, nothing else but that which is not taught by the gospel of jesus Christ, and they which hold any part of that which you call supernatural truth (that is, as we take it, of that truth which men know no otherwise but by the word of God) they are not fallen into an Apostasy, etc. And here we crave your judgement of the Turk, how your rule fitteth them. For as we think by reading his Alcoran, he holdeth some main points of christian truth, as namely these: There is one God; Read Azoara 2. 10. 15. 17. 20. 29. 45. 56. and that he created all things without labour or weariness: and that he preserveth the things created: faith is given and augmented of God. He forbiddeth the adoring of saints and images: affirmeth God to hate and abhor the art of Magic: and teacheth the resurrection of all men from the dead. Show us now whether the Turk be not of the family of JESUS Christ. lastly we pray you to open unto us, that seeing you say the church of Rome is the house of God, whether a man continuing in that house, and never coming out to hold the true belief of Christ, as we do in England, but renouncing and persecuting it to the death, whether such a one may be saved: if yea, why need we sever ourselves to so great trouble from her gross and grievous abominations, if they be not such as can extinguish our faith to our destruction. If no, why do you not join with our Reverend Fathers, to abandon that house where there is no salvation. Of God's house it is said: It is the ground & pillar of truth. 1 Tim. 3. 15. The habitation of God by his spirit: and the glorious rest of Christ. Ephe. 2. 22. In which God loveth to dwell, and wherein he hath delight, and the same he will bless in victuals, Esai 11. 10. Priests and Saints. Psal. 132. 13, 14. So that such as be planted in that house, shall flourish in the courts of our God, Psal. 92. 13. they shall still bring forth fruit in their age. etc. Show us we pray you, whether these things may be applied to the church of Rome rightly and essentially, and what comfort we may have by departing from her communion; if she be a part of the house of God. etc. and these things we pray you to aver, not by human witness, but by that which cometh down from heaven. So did Elias. Again out of this article ariseth another no small scruple, Of preaching. where our church constantly affirmeth, that a Artic. 19 The visible church is that congregation of faithful people wherein the pure word of God is preached. Whereupon the Reverend Fathers of our church publicly teach, that b Whitgift pag. 81. The true preaching of the word is an essential note of the church. For which cause they interpret the parable of the seed, in this sort: c Bb. of Lincoln 1. sermon upon Matth. 13. 3. God is the husbandman, the Preachers of the word are the seed sowers, the seed is the word of God, the ground is the hearts of men, etc. And d Id. sermo 1. upon Rom. 1. 16. Therefore Christ did send his Apostles to preach the Gospel, that thereby they might be brought to the belief of the Church. And e Id. Sermo 1. pag. 4. 5. 6. & 7. To this preaching he annexed such force of his holy spirit, that it had greater strength and authority, than all the eloquence, than all the wisdom, than all the learning, than all the policy and power of the world: and that not only in the Apostles, but also in the Preachers, who have restored the pure light of the Gospel in these latter days, even in those countries, whose Princes and people were professed adversaries thereof: unto which accordeth the holy scriptures calling this preaching f Ephe. 3. 7. A gift of the grace of God, g Colos. 1. 28. to admonish every man, and to teach every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Which things maketh us much to muse what you mean where you say, h Book 5. pag. 46. Sith speech is the very image whereby the mind and soul of the speaker conveyeth itself into the bosom of him that heareth. We can not choose but see great reason, wherefore the word that proceedeth from God, who is in himself very truth and life, should be (as the Apostle to the Hebrews noteth) lively and mighty in operation, sharper than any two edged sword. Now if in this and the like places, we did conceive that our own sermons are that strong and forcible word, should we not even hereby impart even the most peculiar glory of the word of God, unto that which is not his word? For touching our sermons, that which giveth them their very being, is the will of man, and therefore they oftentimes accordingly taste too much of that overcorrupt fountain, from which they come. Hear Mai. Hoo. we are hampered with your words, because they seem to us contrary to the judgement of our church. We therefore desire you heartily to resolve us, what you mean in this place by sermons: whether it be not all one with that our Fathers call preaching of the word, consisting in teaching and exhorting by the word of God; secondly, what you mean by the being of a sermon, whether the Logical and dialectical frame by which men contrive their matter in such and such a form: or that by the gift of the grace of God, a Eccles. 12. 8. weighing and searching and fitting together many sentences, they seek out pleasant words & every right writing and faithful words, and so utter b Tit. 2. 7. in their doctrine, integrity, gravity, and the wholesome word which can not be reproved. If you mean the former, than every declamation and formal oration in the schools, may be called sermons, for these are framed of the mere wit of man: if you mean this latter, than we think you teach contrary to our church & the holy scriptures. You say our sermons are not that strong and forcible word: They say, it is an essential note of the true church, to have true preaching of the word: and namely, the preaching of the pure word of GOD, and that this hath such a force as no eloquence, wisdom, learning, policy, and power of the world can match. You say the wit of man giveth our sermons the very being. They say, God sent his Apostles: that the Preachers are the seed sowers, and the seed is the word of God, and that this is done by the gift of the grace of God. Hear we beseech you to show the just harmony of your words and theirs, and therein to teach us by sound demonstration, that a man can preach the pure word of God by his own natural wit, without a gift supernatural of the spirit to give him utterance and to speak the word as he ought to speak. If all that a man preach be the pure word of God, what derogation is it to call such a man's sermons or preachings the strong and forcible word. In every being there is (as you scholars teach) the matter and the form; and that which joineth these together, is the efficient. Unto which of these will you apply the wit of man, if you say to the matter, than our church is against you, and sayeth it is the pure word of God: if to the form, as, interpretation, doctrine and exhortation, than the holy scriptures do tie unto the gift of the spirit, saying: a Rom. 12. 6. That we have divers gifts, as the gift of prophecy, teaching, exhortation, and no b 2 Pet. 1. 20. scripture is of any private interpretation. If you make it the efficient, than the scripture saith: b 1 Cor. 12. 4. There are diversities of gifts, but the same spirit, and there are diversities of administrations but the same Lord, and there are diversities of operations, but God is the same which worketh all in all. d Rom: 10. 15 No man can preach except he be sent. e Ephe. 4. 8. 11. When he ascended, he gave gifts unto men▪ Here we pray you to teach us how your speeches consent to these testimonies of our church and holy Scripture; or may you not mean that the Sermons of many now a days who in stead of the pure word of God, do most curiously bring into the pulpit, Poets, Philosophers, Rhetoricians, Physicians, Schoolmen, and whatsoever, either by fineness of wit, or help of art, they think may appear fine & smooth to their hearers and win praise to themselves; may you not mean, I say, that such our sermons have their being of the mere wit of man; or do you think that the sermons of our Reverend Fathers, and more stayed divines, which are very wary, that in all their sermons, whatsoever they speak, may be the true sense of holy Scriptures, and according to the proportion of faith; seeing they agree not with the family of jesus Christ that is at Rome, are not therefore the strong and forcible word of God. And here we pray you to teach us, whether that all doctrine, interpretation and exhortation which is truly and merely the natural meaning of holy scripture be not the word of God, or that the word is only in the letter of the text, as of Hebrew and Greek, or, if you will, truly translated: and which of these hath the word of God; he that allegeth the words as did the Tempter, or he that allegeth the true meaning, as did our Saviour Christ, Mat. 4. 6. 10. lastly, show us that if all our sermons be of the wit of man, and none the strong and forcible word of God, whether Romish Babylon may not challenge our church to want one essential mark, as preaching the pure word of God? And whether it be possible for the wit of man to give being unto that which is an essential mark of the church of God, and of that which hath greater strength and authority than all eloquence, wisdom, learning, policy, and power of the world: And lastly, open unto us whether that reverend Father did well, who granteth that the word of God is not only in writing but in preaching, W. Fulk. reply to Brist. rejoined. pag. 99 in Counsels or Doctors: Because Christ saith, He that heareth you, heareth me. The Church of England affirmeth, 23 Of the Mistress office. that a Artic. 23. It is not lawful for any one to take to himself the office of preaching publicly or administering the Sacraments in the church, except he be first lawfully called, and sent to do these things. And hereupon our Reverend Fathers do not only not defend nor b D. Whitgift pag. 516. use any reasons at all to prove that women may baptise, and therefore c Ibid. pa. 504. 793. would not have the book of common prayer, touching baptism in private to be understood, to permit women to baptise: but also connstantlie affirm, d Gervase Bab. upon Gen. cap. 17. ver. 7. pag. 121. that God and well ordered churches forbid Women to dispense that holy mystery. But you Mai. Hoo. have another kind of determination, where you say, e Book 5. pag. 228. Ministerial power is a mark of separation, because it severeth them that have it from other men, and maketh them a special order, consecrated unto the service of the most highest in things wherewith others may not meddle. And in another place: f Ibid. 240. There is an error which beguileth many, who much entangle both themselves and others, by not distinguishing services, offices, and orders ecclesiastical: the first of which three, & in part the second, may be executed by the laity, whereas none have or can have the third but the clergy. From the which Clergy you separate Catechistes, Exorcists, Readers, and Singers, etc. And in another g Ibi. pa. 140. place you seem to maintain & defend the practice of those churches, which (necessity requiring) allow baptism in private, to be administered by Women; affirming elsewhere h ib. pag. 150 That divers reformed churches do both allow and defend that kind of Baptism. Hear we desire to know what you mean by ministerial power, whether you take it activelie, as that every minister, or all Ministers have power to make an order consecrated to the service of God; or passively that by their calling they are made to have the authority and power of a Minister, or that you understand by it the formal cause of their ministery, by which they differ from all other orders, or that you mean the holy unction and character, which the church of Rome giveth in their consecration of priesthood. And this we desire, because we find our church and Reverend Fathers, speaking like to a Heb. 5. 4. No man taketh this honour to himself, but he that is called, etc. holy scripture, to use plain, good and sensible terms, to note out the difference of a ministers estate from other men's: and yours seemeth to carry another kind of style more befitting the glory of the Romish character, than the simplicity of our ministery. Our church saith, they must be called that preach publicly: you say, a Catechist (or whom we find in b Euseb. book 6. cap. 3. and 6. ancient time to have been such as Clemens and Origine in Alexandria, as to whom the people came to hear the preaching of the word of God) is none of the order of the Clergy; meaning, as we think, without this ministerial power. We pray you them to show us, whether you mean by ministerial power, Clergy, or order, that which our church meaneth by calling: if you do, than we see not how you and they agree; that you allow a Catechist, which is an office, to preach the word, which is not of the Ecclesiastical order, and as we say, hath no calling thereunto, and our church saith, that it is not lawful, etc. Again, our Church saith, that it is not lawful to administer the Sacraments without that calling: and that God and well ordered Churches forbid Women to baptise: you (as we think) contrary to our church, maintain such churches as allow the private baptism by Women in case of necessity: and you say, divers reformed churches allow and defend such baptism. Hear we entreat you to declare the agreement of these sayings: and whether because you say that the special order (you speak of) is consecrated unto the service of the highest in things wherewith others may not meddle: your meaning be, that lay people in case of necessity, may meddle with those things which our church saith is not lawful without calling▪ or that because you would have the ministerial power to be a mark and character, you give liberty to preaching & baptizing, as to certain services: and that the character and indelible order, hath nothing to itself peculiar but the making of the body of Christ in the Sacrament, and offering him up in sacrifice to his Father, that the laity, women, and catechist may not meddle with that. And here we desire to understand whence you fett that worthy distinction, the ignorance whereof beguileth many; and that you would declare the same by holy scripture, & bring us one pregnant proof to show the error of our church in affirming preaching and ministering without calling, to be unlawful: or else declare the exception either by scripture, or by some order or interpretation published by our church; or some of our Reverend Fathers, which also may have their harmony with the sayings of the Reverend Fathers by us before rehearsed. And lastly, whether that you in these three places are not contrary to yourself, or that you make not a deluding proposition, which containeth a general prohibition without limitation, which yet is not general but must have exception. And if you place Readers as distinct from clergy, what may we think you esteem of our reading ministers; are they no clergy men? It is an Article of our faith, 24 Of the Sacraments. that a Artic. 25. De Sacramentis. The Sacraments instituted of Christ, are not only marks of christian profession, but rather certain testimonies and effectual signs of grace and of the good will of God towards us; by which he doth work invisibly in us: and doth not only stir up, but also confirm our faith towards himself. Which by the reverend Fathers of our Church is interpreted thus: b Apolog. eccl▪ Angl. cap. 10. divi. 1. Sacraments are visible words, seals of righteousness, and tokens of grace. c Defense of the Apolo. 2. part. pag. 204. The soul of man & not the creature of bread or water receive the grace of God. etc. The grace of God is not in the visible signs but in the soul. d Ibid. pag. 134. The substance of all Sacraments is the word of God; which St Paul calleth verbum reconciliationis, the word of Atonement: this word is the instrument of remission of sin. The Sacraments are the seals affixed unto the same: the Priest is the mean. And speaking of all the faithful to be one body, all endued with one spirit, they further say: e Repli. to Hard. ausw. by I. Iew. Bb. of Salisbur. Artic. 1. pa. 36. This marvelous conjunction and incorporation is first begun and wrought by faith, etc. Afterward the same corporation is assured unto us and increased in our baptism, etc. And for that we are very unperfect of ourselves, and therefore must daily proceed forward, that we may grow unto a perfect man in Christ: Therefore hath God appointed that the same incorporation should be often renewed and confirmed in us by the use of the holy mysteries; wherein must be considered, that the said holy mysteries do not begin but rather continue & confirm this incorporation. Hear we demand how it may appear unto us that you broach not a new doctrine divers and contrary to our belief in England. When you say that a Book 3. pag. 126. The Sacraments chiefest force and virtue consisteth in this that they are heavenly ceremonies which God hath sanctified and ordained to be administered in his church. First as marks to know when God doth impart the vital or saving grace of Christ unto all that are capable thereof. And secondly, as means conditional which God requireth in them unto whom he imparteth grace. And in another place: b Ibi. pa. 133. It is a branch of belief, that Sacraments are in their place no less required, than belief itself. For when our Lord & Saviour promiseth eternal life, is it any otherwise then as he promised restitution of health unto Naaman the Sirian, namely with this condition, wash and be clean. And in another place you say, that c ib. pag. 105. both the word and Sacraments have generative force and virtue. By which your words we are greatly amazed, that our Church hath left out in her creed; and the Reverend Fathers have not taught us, that which is (as you say) the chiefest force and virtue of the Sacraments. Where find you that God ordained the Sacraments to tell us when God giveth grace, and that they are means conditional, and as necessary as faith? Teach us we pray you by holy scripture these three chief virtues of the Sacraments. The furthest that they say (as we gather) is to make them seals of assurance, by which the spirit worketh invisibly to strengthen our faith; and they seem to square their faith by holy scripture: which propoundeth d Rom. 4. 1▪ 23. Abraham to be an example of the true way of justifying, & a pattern to all the children of God, namely; e ibid. ver. 10. 11. that he was first justified by faith, and after received the Sacrament as a sign to be a seal of the righteousness of his faith. Show therefore whether we ought not to go further than our church or holy scripture, unless we will leave out the chiefest virtue of the Sacraments. Moreover they say the grace of God is not in the visible signs; you say, they are means condicionall▪ they say that grace (which they call this marvelous conjunction and incorporation) is first begun and wrought by faith, and afterward is assured and increased by the Sacraments: you say, the sacraments have the generative force and virtue as well as the word. They say, that the substance of all Sacraments is the word, etc. and that the Sacraments are the seals affixed to the same; which being borrowed from the Apostle out of the former recited place, Rom. 4. doth argue that the necessity of the sacraments, is not comparable to that of faith. For by this he proveth Abraham to be justified by faith without works, because he first was justified by faith before he received the Sacrament, and that the Sacrament was but a sign and seal of his faith; so that he excludeth the Sacrament as it is a work, and as you call it a Book 5. pag. 128. a moral instrument of salvation, from all copertenership with faith in the matter of justification. You make it a means condicional, and no less required than faith itself, and of as absolute necessity as that to Naaman: wash and be clean. These things, good Mai. Hoo. we can not reconcile, and therefore we are suitors unto you to aid us in the same, and to make your mind to appear not to overturn the faith of our church: and herein to tell us where you find, that the grace of God is tied to any time, as namely the time of the Sacraments: or whether the Sacraments teach us some other time: and whether the condition of Sacraments make not for the additament of works unto faith, in that which the English church holdeth to be only & properly of faith. And lastly whether such speeches be not merely popish & accursed mixture of human folly, giving a further grace to the blessed Sacraments than God hath ordained; and herein explain unto us, whether a man dying without faith, & yet receiveth the Sacraments, can be saved; or that a man having faith, & never any sacrament, may not be saved; or whether any can be saved, if the condition of salvation be the upright and perfect performance of all moral duties which God requireth expressly in his word. The Church of England affirmeth, 15 Of Christ's institution. that a Artic. 26. De vi institutionum divinarum. By the malice of wicked men which are over the administration of the Sacraments, the effect of the things ordained by Christ is not taken away, or the grace of God's gifts diminished, as touching them which receive by faith and orderly the things offered unto them, which for the institution of Christ and his promise, are effectual, although they be administered by evil men. Whereupon the Reverend Fathers define a Sacrament to be b Thom. Bb. of Lincoln serm. 1. upon 1. Cor. 10. 1. A reverend and holy mystery ordained of God: wherein he by his holy word and promise doth both stir up & practise the faith of his people, and by the operation of the holy ghost, increase his grace in them. etc. And of the intention of the church, they say: c Bb. jewel replic. to Hard. Artic. 1. pag. 34 This is the very dungeon of incertainty. The heart of man is unsearchable, if we stay upon the intention of a mortal man; we may stand in doubt of our own baptism. You seem to speak otherwise where you say: d Book 5. pag. 129. We must note that in as much as Sacraments are actions religious and mystical, which nature they have not unless they proceed from a serious meaning, and what every man's private mind is, as we can not know, so neither are we bound to examine; therefore always in these cases the known intent of the church generally doth suffice; and where the contrary is not manifest, we must presume that he which outwardly doth the work, hath inwardly the purpose of the church of God. Hear we desire to be instructed how these two opinions can stand together. The one which sayeth the Sacraments are effectual through the institution of Christ and his promise; the other which tieth it to the good meaning of the Priest or of the Church. Again, the one saith the intention of the Church is the very dungeon of incertainty; to make us doubt of our Baptism: the other, that the Sacraments have not the nature to be religious and mystical, without a serious meaning, that is, the intent of the church. These things we pray you to reconcile, and therewithal to show us how the intent of the church can give them their nature to be actions religious & mystical, and yet our reverend Fathers say they be holy mysteries ordained of God. Resolve therefore whether the virtue of the sacrament depend upon the institution and promise of God, or upon the good meaning of the Priest or of the Church; or upon both: and whether they cannot have the nature of religious actions and mystical without the intent of the Priest or of the Church; and so whether the church may ordain a mystery; or that the mysteries ordained of GOD have not their nature and form with the presupposed intent of the Church. Whether God in ordaining these mysteries were holpen by the serious meaning of the church, or did except that they should not be mysteries, without the liking and allowing of the church, by their good meaning. And lastly, whether your assertion be not mere popery, a human invention, and an inducement unto that (which is called fides implicita) that it should suffice a man to believe as the church believeth, etc. And herewithal show us what comfort we can have in the use of the Sacraments, if they can not be actions religious and mystical, unless they proceed from the intent and purpose of the church, being (as our Reverend Father's esteem) the very dungeon of uncertainty. The Church of England professeth, ●● Necessity of Baptism. That a Artic. 27. de Baptism. Baptism is a sign of regeneration, by which as by an instrument, they which rightly receive baptism, are engrafted into the Church: the promises of remission of sins and of our adoption to be the children of God by the holy spirit, are visibly sealed, our faith is confirmed, and by the force of the calling upon the name of God, grace is increased. Which the Reverend Fathers of our church do expound in this sense: b Bb. jewel deafen. of Apol. 2. part pag. 150. The children of the faithful are borne holy, and notwithstanding by nature they be the children of anger, yet by God's free election, they be pure & holy. This is Saint Paul's undoubted doctrine; which notwithstanding, he never despised the Sacraments of Christ. And that c Bb. Babingt. upon Gen. ca 17. vers. 12. A man may stand in the state of salvation & out of all danger of damnation before he be baptised. And the contrary to this they call d This is disputed at large by Bb. Bab. in Gen. ca 27. vers. 12. fearful doctrine, injurious to thousands of poor infants, & blasphemous against the bottomless mercy of a sweet and tender Father, who hath said; I will be thy God and thy child's, not adding any condition of baptism if it can not be had as it ought: and hereupon they affirm that Sacraments make not the covenants, but only seal them, and that God hath not thus enthralled his grace (that there is such necessity, that either women or all sorts of persons should dispense the holy mysteries, to the end that no poor creature might be cast away for want of it) nor taught his church in his word, but quite contrary, as we see by telling Abraham his covenant reached to his seed, and by differing the seal of the same; to wit, circumcision to the eight day. You Master Hoo. speak to our understanding a far differing language: namely, a Book 5. pag. 132. Predestination bringeth not to life, without the grace of external vocation wherein our baptism is implied. For as we are not naturally men without birth; so neither are we christian men in the eye of the church of God but by new birth: nor according to the ordinary course of divine dispensation, new borne, but by that baptism which both declareth and maketh us christians, in which respect we hold it to be the door of our actual entrance into God's house, the first apparent beginning of life, a seal perhaps to the grace of election before received, but to our sanctification here a step that hath not any before it. And again: b Book 5. pag. 146. The fruit of Baptism dependeth only upon the covenant which God hath made; that God by covenant requireth of the elder sort faith and Baptism, in children the sacrament of Baptism alone. And in another place: c Ibi. pag. 135 136. We have for baptism no day set as the jews had for circumcision, neither have we by the law of God, but only by the church's discretion, a place thereunto appointed. Baptism therefore even in the meaning of the law of Christ, belongeth unto infant's capable thereof, from the very instant of their birth, which if they have not howsoever, rather than lose it by being put of, because the time, the place, or some such like circumstance, doth not solemnly enough concur, the church as much as in her lieth, wilfully casteth away their souls. Hear are we at our wits end, not knowing what to believe. For if our English confession be true that baptism is a sign of regeneration, and visibly sealeth our remission of sins and adoption, and increaseth grace, etc. we know not what to make of that you say: Baptism to be the first apparent beginning of life, a seal perhaps of the grace of election, and that there is no step of sanctification before Baptism. And again, if it be true (as you say) Predestination bringeth not life without the grace of external vocation, wherein baptism is implied; what shall we think of that our Reverend Fathers say: A man by God's free election is holy and pure; and that before Baptism a man may stand in the state of salvation. And if our church's doctrine be true; that baptism is a seal of remission of sins, and that the Sacraments make not the covenants but are seals of the covenantes, how can yours be true that by covenant God requireth faith and baptism in the elder, and baptism alone in children. Is baptism part of the covenant, and more than a seal? And seeing our Reverend Fathers affirm that God and well ordered churches forbid baptism by women, and that God hath not enthralled his church to such urgent necessity, and that such doctrine is fearful, injurious, and blasphemous, and our sweet and tender Father hath said: I will be thy God and thy child's, not adding any condition of baptism, if it cannot be had as it ought. How can it be well in you to make it a bloody and wilful casting away of souls, if the church provide not that children have baptism howsoever. And here we pray you to teach us whether the covenant and Sacraments in the Gospel be not the same in nature, virtue and substance that they were under the law, or that our Sacraments have more necessity. And if so, why our Reverend Fathers disavow the necessity of Baptism, to be done any other wise then as it ought, because God appointed circumcision till the eight day, is there a further grace in our sacraments, or have they not somewhat in the work wrought, which the Sacraments of the law had not: We pray you therefore, plainly and distinctly to show us your mind; whether righteousness cometh by baptism, or by faith. And seeing notwithstanding all these hard and peremptory speeches, you sometimes say, that a Pag. 134. 135. grace is not absolutely tied to sacraments: and the necessity of receiving not so absolute, as that of administering the Sacraments. We would feign know what you hold and affirm; what manner of necessity you mean. For if grace be not absolutely tied unto Sacraments, and necessity of receiving Sacraments not absolute; we know not what should make necessity of administering absolute, but that as our Reverend Fathers say, we are not enthralled to appoint or suffer it to be done by Women or lay persons, if it cannot be had as it ought: and if GOD have not added any such condition of baptism, where borrowed you that distinction? We can not tell where to find you, or how to take your meaning, or at the least that your mind concurreth with the doctrine of the church of England: we expect therefore and pray you to declare faithfully these things unto us. The Church of England pronounceth, 17 Of Transubstantiation. that a Artic. 28. Decoena Domini. The Transubstantiation of the bread and wine in the Eucharist, can not be proved by the sacred Scripture, but is against plain words of Scripture, overturneth the nature of the sacrament, & hath given occasion of many superstitions. And for this cause our Reverend Fathers call it: b Th. Bb. of Lin. upon 1 Cor. 10 A monstrous & blasphemous doctrine: c Nowell. Catechis. bringing in doubt the truth of Christ's body. d Prefat. & protestatio Nic. Rid. habit. 20. April. in scol. pub. Oxon. anno 1555. Read also book of Mart. pag. 1327. print. 1576. Contrary to Christ's words, saying: It is expedient that I go away, Joh. 16. 7. and to that of Peter: Whom the heavens must contain until the time that all things be restored, Act. 3. 21. disagreeing from the articles of faith, He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father, etc. making void the institution of Christ, which is to continue till he come, etc. casting holy things to profane, as whoremongers, murderers, etc. mice and dogs to receive the true real body of Christ. causing most cruel eating of man's flesh, and many monstrous miracles: accidents without subjects: the body of Christ without his qualities and true manner of a body: nourishing the Marcionist to believe the fantastical body of Christ, and Eutychians confounding the two natures of Christ, and therefore they which affirm transubstantiation are indeed right Sacramentaries and Capernaites. In regard whereof we entreat you Mai. Hoo. to make a fit construction of your words, were you say: e Book 5. 176. 177. Sith we all agree that by the sacrament, Christ doth really and truly in us perform his promise: why do we vainly trouble ourselves with so fierce contentions. whether by consubstantiation or else by transubstantiation the sacrament itself be first possessed with Christ or no: a thing which no way can either further or hinder us howsover it stand, because our participation of Christ in the Sacrament, dependeth on the cooperation of his omnipotent power, which maketh it his body and blood unto us, whether with change or without alteration of the element, such as they imagine, we need not greatly to care nor inquire after. In all which words you seem to make light of the doctrine of transubstantiation, as a matter not to be stood upon or to be contended for, cared for or inquired into: Which maketh us to marvel how our Church and Reverend Fathers have all this time passed, been deceived. What should cause them to affirm it to be a thing contrary to the plain words of scripture, overturning the nature of the Sacrament, to call it monstrous doctrine: why so many reverend Fathers, as Crammer, Ridley, Hooper, Latimer, Rogers, Bradford, etc. have given their lives in witness against it, if it be a thing that neither furthereth nor hindereth, a thing not to be cared for, nor inquired after? And here we pray you ingeniously to show whether your meaning be to bring that side into credit by softening the odiousness of their heresy, and our side into suspicion of peevishness, for standing upon trifles; which the rather we desire to be resolved in, because else where you call the enemies to Transubstantiation a pag. 178. Sacramentaries, and b pag. 119. 120. labour to show a certain ubiquity of Christ's manhood and of his body, and of his soul, which seemeth to us that you would give a gentle construction of Popish opinions, and privily rob the truth of our English creed of her due estimation. If you call our Reverend Father's Sacramentaries for oppugning transubst. and they again call the maintainers of it right Sacramentaries and Capernaites (if you have given as good testimony of faithfulness as they) whom shall we believe? are you not contradictory: and may we think you can favour that side; your words do beat down; show us than we pray you how such great favours do not prejudice the doctrine of the church of England, or not condemn those millions of learned divines and blessed Martyrs of extreme folly, who have died for the same; and that God should reveal to you only that it was for that which neither furthered nor hurteth? Lastly instruct us whether the institution of the Sacrament by Christ, saying: this is my body: do this in remembrance of me, be not the true and right making of it Christ's body and blood unto us: and upon what ground of Scripture it may be proved, that the cooperation of his omnipotent power doth make it his body and blood unto us, and in what sense: And whether such phrases do not help the Popish argument of God's power which they commonly use to approve their transubstantiation. There be also in your book divers Theorems not so familiar to us common Christians, 18 Of speculative doctrine. neither do we perceive them in the English Creed; neither in the reading of the holy writings of God. We pray you therefore declare unto us by what spirit or word you teach them unto us. what foundation they have in holy writ: and how they pertain to the faith or discipline of the English church? Such as are these. a Book 5. pag. 245. Ten, the number of nature's perfections. b pag. 109. Angel's perpetuity: the hand that draweth out celestial motion. c pag. 61. Church attire with us lively resembleth the glory of Saints in heaven. d pag. 67. Daily bruises: spiritual promotions use to take by often falling. e pag. 72. Multiplied petitions of worldly things, a kind of heavenly fraud to take the souls of men as with certain baits. f pa. 154. 155 In Baptism God doth bestow presently remission of sins, and the holy Ghost, binding also himself to add in process of time, what grace soever shallbe further necessary, for the attaynement of everlasting life. g pag. 160. The sign of the Cross (as we use it) is in some sort a mean to work our preservation from reproach, and h pag. 162. lin. 27. Christ's mark. i pag. 261. Assuredly whosoever doth well observe how much all inferior things depend upon the orderly courses and motions of those greater orbs, will hardly judge it meet or good, that the Angels assisting them, should be driven to betake themselves unto other stations, although by nature they were not tied where now they are, but had charge also elsewhere; as long as their absence from beneath might but tolerably be supplied, & by descending their rooms above should become vacant: and such like, whereof your writing is not a little stored; but show us only concerning these, that if i Heb. 2. 14. all Angels be ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for their sakes which shall be heirs of salvation (as God's spirit testifieth) where is it reveyled, that they attend upon the celestial orbs, or that their perpetuity is the hand that draweth out celestial motion; and if they do, whether it be not sin in them, to leave their natural charge, and to attend upon that which they are not tied unto? Do you not mean the a jud. ver. 6. Angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation whom God hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day? or would you have the elect Angels to be like unto the Angel of the bottomless pit, whose name is Abbaddon? When, where, or how did Christ rel thee that the sign of the cross (as we use it) is the mark of Christ, and preserveth from reproach: and what warrant have you of present grace in the very work wrought of Baptism; did you see in the mountain of God the pattern of that heavenly fraud which you say is to catch men by multiplied petitions of worldly things? And what be the bruises and falls that spiritual promotions ordained by Christ, do or can take? And how doth it appear in nature, or from the God of nature; that ten is the number of nature's perfections? The Reverend Fathers of our Church call Mr Calvin b I. Whitg. pag. 390. one of the best writers: c Bb. jewel. defen. of Apol. 2. part, pag. 149. Read any English writer defending the church of England: & namely Fulke against Stapl. fortress. pag. 71. Read Apolog. Angl. A reverend Father, 19 Of Calvin and the reformed churches. & a worthy ornament of the church of God, not only defending the same doctrine, but also discharging him of slanderous reports wrongfully laid against him, knowing that by defaming the persons of christians, and especially of Ministers, the Devil of old time laboured to overthrow the Gospel of Christ. How greatly all christian churches are to praise God for that man's faithful labours, and how instantly therefore all sorts of papists have and do endeavour and strive to diminish his credit, all the christian world most aboundlie both by word and by writing, do testify. Wherefore we wonder not a little. What moved you to make choice of that worthy pillar of the church above all other, to traduce him and to make him a spectacle before all christians. Wherefore we crave your favour that with truth and patience you would answer our doubts & scruples which by the preface of your first book you have made in us concerning him. And first, what Master Calvin hath done against our Church, that you should single him out as an adversary: Which of our Reverend Fathers of this land hath wished you thereunto; or else tell us plainly whether our adversaries (in whose mouths you are a most invincible champion) have not provoked you against him? And open unto us without deceit ingenuously, whether all the learned men of our country, who have written and disputed for discipline, be not to base and mean persons, that on them only so mighty a man should spend his sharp arrows and coals of juniper? but you will pass over the Seas, and search the sepulchres of the strangers, and finding no man alive worthy your combat, you call Master Calvin out of his sweet bed of rest, and him that is entered into peace, you challenge again into the field. Will no man fit you but he that was (as you bravely affirm) incomparably the wisest man that ever the French church did enjoy, since the hour it did enjoy him, to whom thousands were debtor: and who for his exceeding pains in composinge the institutions of Christian Religion, & exposition of holy scripture, gained the advantage of prejudice against all gainsayers following him, and of glory above all that consented to him. How unlike are you unto that great & mighty Goliath, who defied the whole Host of God, and made challenge of a man out of them all: he was so proud that he demanded but chose not: he sought for one that was alive and vaunted not himself over one that was dead? And here we most instantly beseech you, whether your weapons be the words of righteousness and the faithful pen of truth. Where learned you, and how prove you that Mai. Calvin was the founder of discipline? And herein declare unto us, what moved that Reverend and learned man Mai. D. Whitgeeft to spend so many a D. Whitg. pag. 174. leaves to show that the parts of Discipline might be altered by the civil Magistrate, as serving more fitly for the Apostles time, and the time of persecution, then for us, having the Magistrate to friend, and living in peace and quietness. If Master Caluin (as the b T. Beza in vita Calvin. true story reporteth) obtained the consent of the towns men of Geneva, not only by demonstration out of the holy scriptures, but also by showing the mind of very learned men of his age, out of their writings, as of Oecolampadius, Swinglius, Suychius, Philip, Bucer, Capito and Miconius, who was the founder of the discipline? Where had these notable men their judgement? Did he teach them? or write before them? Was it not one founder even the Lord Christ, the author and builder of his Church, who raised up divers men in divers places, and taught them by the same spirit out of the same holy scripture, the same doctrine and commandment of truth and righteousness? Show us also we pray you before our God which searcheth the heart, whether we have not just cause to judge, that in penning this story, you make of Calvin, your purpose were not to deceive your reader by an artificial entwining of some part of the truth with the hollow & glittering thread of your own witty conjectures and peremptory censures; as namely when you begin to tell of the repentance of the people of Genevah, pag. 5. 6. irefullie champing upon the bit: you suddenly fall into a discourse of the rising up of those reformed churches; you besprinkle them with likelihood of desire of glory of their own enterprises; you blame them that in that troublesome time they wanted common conference, and that afterwards lest they should derogate from their credit, they became ever after resolute to maintain that which they had done, and so leaving the churches all bespotted with levity and selfepride, and eased of all conscience and honesty; you closely thrust in Calvin with this word, therefore: that he and his associates (as partners of the same self weening) stiffly refusing to administer the holy Communion, were banished the town. After speaking of his restoring and re-establishing of Discipline, you have in one place, pag. 7. 8. Many things might lead them etc. And in other place, He rightelie considered, etc. This devise I see not how the wisest, etc. And again: This sort it may be, etc. Therefore we pray you to teach us how such might lead & may bees, such entering into his thought and cross commending that for his divise which he simply propounded as out of the Scriptures of God; may not drop into your reader's heart such unheeded impressions, as may make him highly admire R. H. great gravity and judicious wisdom and J. Caluins' carnal policy, fine hypocrisy and peremptory folly. We beseech you also help us in these things following. First the true story saith, The. Beza in vit. Calvini. Many being at the first gently admonished, for many unworthy acts, and for old enmity among the chief families, and the stubborn being more sharply reproved; the city was divided by the faction of certain private men, Farellus and Calvin with Coraldus, openly protested that they could not orderly celebrate the lords Supper unto men so much at discord. At which time also betwixt the Church at Barn and Genevah was difference in certain rites, which while they were about to set in order by a Synod summoned for that purpose; the chief Magistrates for that year of Genevah, being the Captains of the factions and discord, assembling the people brought the matter to this end; that these three faithful servants of God were commanded to departed the town within two days. And when these Officers, like unto filthy froth, were cast out (the one accused of sedition going about to escape through a window, falling down headlong, by the pease of his body, was so hurt that within few days he died: another for murder was put to death, and the two other being accused for ill govern meant in a certain embassage, forsook the country, and were condemned being absent; the City than began to seek again for their Farellus and Calvin. You say when these things began to be put in ure; pag. 5. 6. 7. the people began to repent them of that they had done; the rather for that they grew by means of this innovation into dislike with some Churches near about them, etc. and so Calvin and his associates (as is afore said) were banished, and that after the places of one or two of their Ministers being fallen void, they are importunate to obtain Calvin again, and that they were content the other two should enjoy their exile. The contradiction of these two stories we pray you to reconcile, either by the 24. epist. which you cite, or by any true narration whatsoever. First show us that the dislike of other churches was for discipline, and that for that dislike the town was the rather moved against Calvin. And whether rather these churches did not make intercession by the decree of a Synod for Calvin to the Genevians. secondly, whether those Sindickes being wicked and taken away by the righteous judgements of almighty God, the people were not made free from the former factions: and whether that thereupon the Lord moving their minds, they remembered not the injuries done to those two good Pastors. And show us by clear demonstration they sought not as well for Farellus as for Calvin. And here also without your help, we know not what construction to make of your descanting on the Ministers, assuring Calvin of their allegiance, his returning as it had been another Tully, and the assenting of the people with no less alacrity of mind than cities unable to hold outlonger. Are these any other but bitter scorns and despiteful fictions? And to omit many things (because this is a personal cause) we do most heartily beg at your hands to answer us truly and faithfully, whether you think Master Calvin to have been an honest truehearted christian, fearing God, and not an impostor and a deceaver of the people, or at the least you would have men so to esteem of him. For how can we otherwise conjecture in that you blame him more for the countenancing of discipline being established, pag. 10. 11. then for establishing of it, affirming with no small incitements of cunning insinuations, that because he by wisdom and not by the word of God, saw that discipline requisite for that people, he employed all his wit by sifting the very utmost sentence and syllable of holy Scripture to confirm the same; and not to omit the least occasion in all his writings following of extolling the use and singular necessity thereof. If we may thus judge of his faithfulness in promoting of discipline, what may we suspect of his sincere dealing in the doctrine? About rites (as the ministering with common bread) you acknowledge that he would not stand with the Church, to make trouble for a thing indifferent, and why if he were a good man, should we think that he would profess it to be traitorous cowardliness, Epist. 165. not to die a hundred times rather than to suffer that to be wickedly borne down which he very well knew to be taken out of the word of God? Can you so far make manifest either by good and just presumptions, or by plain and true story, his deep hypocrisy and arrogant pride; that even against his own conscience; he would so earnestly strive and trouble the whole Church to maintain a devise of his own? We pray you therefore to show us sincerely whether such insinuations be charitable? and whether if you be a friend to the Gospel, you make not a greater rent in God's Church, by such arguments then if you meddled not at all in the matter, but left it to men of more stayed and sound discretion and of a more charitable and peaceable spirit. For if such bold and bare affirmations may go for payment, why may we not as well hear and believe Master Harding, which calls all the whole and pure doctrine believed and professed in England; a In his Epist. to Bb. jewel A wicked new devise of Geneva. We desire you therefore in the name of our Lord jesus Christ, who shall judge all men at his coming and make manifest the intents & thoughts of the heart, to show unto us without all artificial glozing whether all this your treatise of Calvin, be not polished armour, and a sharper razor, prepared for the use and help of the enemies of the Gospel, and that it may not rather be called a prejudicial commentary; and a Popish paraphrase; then a story true plain and without partiality, and that men have not just cause to think the better of Master Calvin and the cause of discipline, when they see so little plain and faithful dealing in your writing. Read therefore his preface before his comment on the Psalms, and Beza his story of his life, and the French or any other stories or monuments of faithful honest Christians and then answer faithfully the truth and show your honest meaning. Our reverend Fathers a D. Cranmer as Mr Fox writeth. book of Mart. pag. 1752. converting their studies from school authors unto the holy scriptures, and causing others to do the like, ●● Schoolmen Philosophe and Popery brought many to be well seen in divinity, and themselves and others well affected in Religion; and therefore constantly affirm that b Tho. Bb. of Lincol. ser. 1. upon Rom. 1. 16. pag. 7. The heavenly doctrine of our Saviour Christ was so buried in the darkness of school-learning, that no man tasted the sweetness of it, which to be true that worthy man Martin Luther, through God's goodness to his Church finding by great experience in himself and others, is bold to say, a Respons. M. Luth. ad dialect. silvest count conclus. sextam. Theologia illa scholastica exulem nobis fecit veram & sincer am theologiam. That school divinity hath banished from us the true & sincere divinity. And again, b Conclus. 50. vol. 1. pag. 56. Totus Aristoteles ad Theologiam est tenebra ad lucem. All Aristotle unto divinity is darkness unto light. Now in all your books, although we find many good things, many truths and fine points bravely handled, yet in all your discourse, for the most part, Aristotle the patriarch of Philosophers (with diverse other human writers) and the ingenuous schoolmen, almost in all points have some finger: Book 1. Preface pag. 6. Reason is highly set up against holy scripture, and reading against preaching, the church of Rome favourably admitted to be of the house of God. Calvin with the reformed churches full of faults: & most of all they which endeavoured to be most removed from conformity with the church of Rome: Almost all the principal points of our English creed, greatly shaken and contradicted. If you do not sincerely, plainly and truly answer all these our necessary doubts and demands; what shall we have cause to think of these your tedious and laborious writings. Shall we do you wrong to suspect you as a privy and subtle enemy to the whole state of the English Church, and that would have men to deem her Majesty to have done ill in abolishing the Romish religion, and banishing the Pope's authority: and that you would be glad to see the backsliding of all reformed churches to be made conformable to that wicked synagogue of Rome: and shame and reproach to all faithful Ministers, whom GOD hath raised up to reveal and beat down Antichrist: and that you esteem the preaching and writing of all the Reverend Fathers of our Church, and the books of holy scripture to be at the least of no greater moment than Aristotle and the Schoolmen? Or else do you mean to bring in a confusion of all things, to reconcile heaven and earth, and to make all religions equal? Will you bring us to Atheism, or to Popery; or to prepare a plot for an Interim, that our streets may run with blood, when all religious shallbe tolerated, and one shall beard and provoke another? Are there not examples sufficient of unspeakable massacres abroad; unless we should fett the same home to our country, rejoicing under the blessed unity of the Gospel of peace. Think you that the long experience of God's protection, in these golden days of quiet concord, the religious and peaceable heart of our dear sovereign Lady and Queen ELIZABETH, (for whose joyful preservation all good and christian minded English men, do unceasantlie pray) and the thousands of faithful subjects, who have learned Christ under the shadow of her most happy and honourable reign; would ever give you thanks for such great service, or ever agree unto such abominations, if they should once begin to espy such stratagemicall operations to appear in their effects, and to show themselves directly and openly: We beseech you therefore in the Name of JESUS Christ, and as you will answer for the use of those great gifts which God hath bestowed upon you, that you would return and peruse advisely all your five books, compare them with the articles of our profession set out by public authority, and with the works Apologetical & other authorized sermons & homilies of our church, and of the Reverend Fathers of our Land, and with the holy book of God, and all other the Queen's majesties proceed: and then read and examine with an indifferent & equal mind a book set out in Latin called Querimonia Ecclesiae, and an other in English, late come abroad, speaking of Scotizing and Genevatising, & Allobrogicall Discipline: and having maturely with a judicious conscience in the fear of God, pondered and weighed them in the balance of truth and justice, then tell us roundly and soothelie: That if the Reverend Fathers of our church, assisted with some of the approved divines of both Vniversies, did read, peruse and examine your books, and those two other books, whether they would not judge in their conscience, and give sentence with their mouths, that by those three writings, the Church of England and all other christian Churches, are undermined, and that they are very notable bellows (if God's mercy stayed it not) to blow the coals of sedition, and fiery civil war between all christian Churches; and to make all people, who read them, to fall either flatly to Atheism or backward to popery, when they shall see all godly Ministers and christian churches, by men of their own side and profession, to be so openly traduced and notoriously detected, and all the articles of our Religion & many parts of our church government to be checked, blamed, or contradicted. And might they not think that the Pope's factors in England, have some intelligence with such writers? Or is that new found discipline so nearly seated with our English creed; that such expert archers aiming at the one, must needs hit the other? Our last scruple and demand is this, 21. The style & manner of writing. seeing your books be so long and tedious, in a style not usual, and (as we verily think) the like hard to be found; far differing from the simplicity of holy Scripture, and nothing after the frame of the writings of the Reverend and learned Fathers of our church, as of Crammer, Ridley, Latimer, jewel, Whitgeeft, Fox, Fulke, etc. And that your Prefaces and discourses before you come to the question are so long, & mingled with all kind of matters and suits of learning and doctrine: whether your meaning be to show yourself to be some rare Demosthenes, or extraordinary Rabbi, or some great Pythagoras, that enjoin your scholars or your adversaries to five years silence, before they can be perfect in your meaning or able to reply: or that these men you writ against, be not sound in matters of faith; and therefore you handle all things, or else you had no better way to make doubtful the chief grounds of our faith and religion, and that you would have men better seen in Philosophy and schoolemens divinity, and namely in Aristotle: or that you were afeard, Read book 2. pag. 58. that if you had not handled it with so grave, heroical and lofty a majesty, you should have been reputed like some other man, and so your same should have been but small: or that you would weary your adversary with such thick and continual falling strokes, that he should not be able to stand before you to strike one blow against you, or that you would bear down the cause with swelling words of vanity, and cunningly framed sentences to blind and entangle the simple; or that you would show yourself another Aristotle by a certain metaphysical and cryptical method to bring men into a maze, that they should rather wonder at your learning, than be able to understand what you teach in your writing. We which stand for the defence of our English church highly commend R. H. books, we allege your opinions as well as we can to stop the mouths of foolish carpers: We commend your books as very excellent and learnedly penned, and not to be answered; then they promptly ask your reasons and require of us to show by what arguments you maintain those assertions: then return we to your books; we seek and beat our brains, but are hardly able, by our mean capacity, to gather any thing: but as a man a far of beholding a briar tree; all blown over with his flowers, with great desire approacheth near unto it, and findeth himself deceived; so the delight of reading your book is marvelous great, but the fruit thereof (howsoever it come to pass) unto us that search and examine it, is far unlike the goodly show and appearance. In the book of that most learned and reverend Father D. Withgift: we find the question judicially set down, his answer to the matter in question sensible, his reasons either from holy scripture, from Fathers or new writers, without all circumferences and crooked windings, directly applied, so as such poor men as we be may bear away what he saith and what he intendeth: but in your writing we are mightily encumbered; we walk as in a labyrinth, and are suddenly overwhelmed as in the deep sea: sometime it seemeth to us that we see great flourishing of warlike and glittering weapons and to hear the loud outcries and noise of them which pursue their enemies in battle, thundering, gunshott, tossing of spears, and rattling of harness; yet cannot we perfectly perceive any thing almost rightly to touch the adversary pretended; but rather (as in our demands before we verily think doth manifestly appear) most heavy strokes, poisoned pellettes, and dangerous bushes of the pikes, against the jerusalem of God, the holy Christian church of England, whom you would seem to defend. We desire you therefore with all instancy, that you would not deny us three things. First to show unto us what arguments you have alleged which are material and of weight, which are not to be found in the answer of that reverend Father unto Master Carthwright; and herein plainly to the which be your arguments or direct answers, which are neither fine and close Ironies, or blustering bitter scoffs, begging of the question, or peremptory affirmations, and how we may know what is the state of the question, and when you are in or out, and what you hold in your conscience to be the truth in God's sight: how great and large your five books would be, if you had used reasonable, intelligible and logical arguments only as other writers and disputers do, and had left out all needless witty gloss and Rhetorical shadows in preambles, discourses, digressions, amplifications, and had kept yourself out of the common jail of sophistical elenches, and impertinent outleapes, and had followed S. Peter's prescript, 1 Pet. 3. 15. 16 in a meek, reverend and direct apology and defence proceeding from a good conscience. Secondly, that if you set forth your other books which are promised, you would be more plain and sensible; and follow the usual language and style of other learned men and English writers; leaving out unnecessary long discourses, and common places, set out your reasons in plain terms and words of sincerity, without these huge embossments or stuffed bumbasing, that poor plain men, which cannot skill of such hidden mysteries, may perceive and learn something by your great travails. Thirdly that you would be careful not to corrupt the English creed and pure doctrine (whereunto you have subscribed) either by philosophy or vain deceit of schoolemens newborn divinity, or by any other beggarly rudiments of this world, nor set these Churches by the ears with these closely carried and dainty insinuations, and that through desire of vain glory you provoke not your brethren, and help the common and sworn enemy, which fighteth against God, against Christ's church, against our peaceable country, and against our religious, godly and christian Princess. And especially that you beware in the cause of supremacy to give your lawful sovereign her right and full due, and not so to make the Church of Rome of the family of Christ JESUS, Sar. contr. B●zam cap. 2. pag 57 that you lift up the son of pride the blasphemous tyrant the Pope into that high chair of pestilence to be Christ's vicar upon earth, Ipsa est maternostra in qua & per quam tegeneravit 〈◊〉 Deus. etc. and ministerial head of his universal Church. For as there is one that saith the church of Rome is Mater nostra, our mother: So if you should go but one step further, we know not what injury may be done to her majesties rightful Imperial Crown and dignity. And lastly, that you remember him which is high and excellent, the king of all glory, and Lord of all power, that you please not man to displease God, & seeking yourself, you forsake not your own mercy. You know that it is written. a Prov. 13. 1●. Only by pride doth man make contention, but with the well advised is wisdom. And b Cap. 11. 2. when pride cometh, than shame cometh, but with the lowly is wisdom. You know also who hath said: c Deut. 32. 35. Vengeance is mine, etc. And again. d Psal. 105. 15 Touch not mine anointed, and do my Prophets no harm. And again e Psal. 1. 6. The Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, and the way of the wicked shall perish. Now in all these things good Master Hoo. though we thus write, The purpose of this letter. we do not take upon us to censure your books; neither rashly to judge of you for them, but because we be all children borne in this Church, and every child loving his mother, is jealous over that which seemeth disgraceful to his mother; and all Christians are exhorted to f jud. vers. 3. contend earnestly for the faith which was once given to the saints: and he that toucheth our faith toucheth the apple of our eye; We could not but utter our inward grief, and yet in as charitable manner, as the cause in hand would suffer, (for is it not a great matter when you seem to us to make a wide open breach in the church, and to stain the pure doctrine of faith) we seek that the truth be not darkened or defaced; and that you by wise, plain and honest resolution unto these our doubts and demands, may approve yourself as the faithful and sincere servant of jesus Christ. If then in all these our demands and requests, you do lovingly and faithfully satisfy us your native countrymen, who have sucked out the sincere milk of the Gospel, by the doctrine in England professed, published and preached, by sermons, apologies, articles and reading of holy scripture even now these 40. years; (for which we are not able to render sufficient praise and thanks to our most merciful Father in JESUS Christ, and namely for that worthy instrument of our joy, that blessed Halcyon and Christian Deborah, his anointed handmaid our sovereign Lady and Queen Elizabeth, whom the sun of righteousness hath raised up to still the raging streams and roaring waves of God's enemies, even the cursed Canaanites of Romish Babylon, whose peaceable and flourishing reign we most humbly pray the mighty God of heaven, the Father of our Lord jesus Christ, still to continue in joy and honour) if indeed you answer our desire in love and faithfulness, we shall have good cause to commend well of your sincere meaning, we shallbe beholding unto you for your godly zeal in defending our church, and give unto you your condign praise in all places, for your true and upright dealing, and pray earnestly unto God for you, that such excellent gifts and graces, which he hath vouchased unto you above many, may be always wisely employed, to the advancing of the glory of the most high God, and of his most glorious Son jesus Christ our Lord, to the furtherance of the prosperous wealth of his holy Church, the fruitful service of your sovereign Prince and native country, and to your own inward comfort, and undeceavable joy of conscience, in and through jesus Christ our blessed Lord and Saviour, to whom be all praise and glory in his Church and in all places of the world for ever, Amen. Faults to be corrected. Folio 3. lin. 31. read favouring. Fol. 11. lin. 2. read piercing. Idem. lin. 30. read helped. Folly 18. lin. 28. for son, read same, Fol. 19 lin. 30. read professed. Folly 22. lin. ult. then, read them. Fol. 34. lin. penult. read ingenuously. Fol. 35. lin. 14. read such. Fol. 37. lin. 19 take away the puncte. Fol. 40. lin. 13. after absent put a parenthesis thus.)