The Examinations of Henry Barrowe John Grenewood and John Penrie/ before the high commissioners/ and Lords of the Counsel. Penned by the prisoners themselves before their deaths.  
 There is nothing covered/ that shall not be reviled: neither hide/ that shall not be known. Luke. 12. 2. for every work God himself will bring Unto judgement/ with every secret thing whither good or evil. Eccles. 2. 14.  

THe testimony and sufferings of the prisoners/ whose examinations here ensue/ cannot easily/ gentle reader) be forgot of and whose heart is touched with care of religion and zeal of the truth. How weighty the. causes were for which they suffered/ may appear par●●ie by that which followeth/ but Here hast thou the manner of the▪ Prelates proceeding against them/ and how they were convicted of their Brownism/ ●onatisme/●na●●ptis●●ie ●na●●ptis●●ie/S●hisme/ Heresy etc. wherewith they were charged/ and for which they were so 〈…〉 years kept in miserable close prisons/ and at last bereaved of their lives. Sure whosoever had been the persons/ and whatsoever the errors it would well ●aue become the Lord Arch ●▪ of the church of England/ to have better instructed and informed them by the ●●●rd of truth and w●●l●o●e doctrine/ before they had been adjudged to prison and death. ●▪ Tim. 2/24▪ 25. and 4/2. ●it. 2/1. Or if Paul's counsel could not take effect/ yet pilate's example might have stayed such courses/ who examined our Lord Christ's accusers/ and found them false▪ and never sent him to close prison for refusing to swear to accuse himself. Mat. 27. Luk. 23. Joh. 18. Neither yet did the late prelate's in Q. Mary's days use altogether such severity: for Bonnet himself with the other tyrants of that 〈…〉 e/ ●ad often conference and disputation with the Martyr's/ and sought by scriptures to have overthrown them/ if they could. Evil therefore have our 〈◊〉. provided for their cause and credit▪ so slightly to deal in matters of such moment/ and to proceed to such s●●ere to r●ures/ before more open and orderly conviction of the faults and ercours. Lo now all posterities shall see their practices: and though they have spilled the blood of those men which vexed them so fore/ yet can they not bereave the world of their testimony which ●y word and writing they have left behind them. The lord give these men (if they belong unto h●●) to ad●●●t and see their dealings/ and to remember the account which they ere long shallbe called unto/ before him who is ready to judge quick and dead. The publishing of these things can not justly be offensive to any/ seeing 1. nothing 〈◊〉 is here set down▪ but that which was then demanded and answered/ (as near as the prisoners could remember:) 2. And they/ which have themselves set forth the examinations of 〈…〉 heretofore/ may not be grieved now when their own turn is come/ and their proceed made known likewise: they which do well need not shun the light. How ever it be the church of God I doubt not shall reap some profit hereby▪ for which/ how 〈…〉 so ever it be let h●● have the praise.  
Amen.   


Abrief of the examination of me Henry barrow the 19 of November. 1586. Before the Arch B. Arch D. and Dr. Cussins: as near as my memory could carry: being at Lambeth.  
THis 19 being the Lords day/ between 9 and 10. oft the clock in the fore noon/ M●●ul and I went unto the Clinke to visit M●▪ Grenewood/ and the other brethren there imprisoned: where we had not been the space of one quarter of an hour/ but Mr. Shepherd the keeper of the prison came up/ rebuked Mr. Grenewood/ and stayed me/ saying he had commandment from his Lords grace so to do. I demanded a sight of his warrant: he answered that he would do it/ and I might afterward if I were wronged/ bring mine action. So he locked me up in prison/ and forthwith went to his Lord's grace to Lambeth. About one of the clock he returned/ and brought with him 2. pursuvantes. I was forthwith put into a boat/ and carried to Lambeth. By the way/ one of the pursuvants called Watson/ drew out of his boso●● a letter from the court of Lambeth unto me/ saying how he had a long time sought me. I told him/ his pains deserved thanks/ neither at God's hands nor mine: I refused his letter/ and said that I obeyed neither it nor him/ neither would I read it/ showing how I was under the arrest of the keeper of the Clinke who sat by me. Well/ we arrived at Lambeth/ where after I had perused the B. his state/ I was brought into his presence chamber/ yet not until this Watson had prevented me/ and showed his master what had passed in the boat.  Arch B. 
barrow/ is your name barrow?  B. 
Yea.  A. 
It is told me/ that you refuse to receive or obey our letter/ know you what you do? it is from the high commissioners/ and this man a pursuvant.  B. 
I refused to receive or obey that letter at that time.  A. 
Why so?  B. 
Because I was under arrest/ and imprisoned without warrant/ and against law: and therefore now it was too late to bring the letter.  A. 
Why/ may not a Counsellor commit to prison by his bare commandment?  (alleging how the Aldermen of London do daily.) B. 
That is not the question/ what a counsellor may do: but whither this man may do it without warrant/ by the law of the land:  (pointing to the keeper of the Clinke.) A. 
Know you the law of the land?  B. 
Very little/ yet was I of Gray's Inn some years.  (Then his two Doctors and he/ decided mine unskilfulness.) 
Let this pass: I look for little help by law against you: I pray you why have you imprisoned me/ and after this manner sent for me?  A. 
That you shall know upon your oath: will now swear?  B. 
I hold it lawful to swear/ so it be done with due order and circumstances.  A. 
Reach a book/ hold it him.  B. 
What shall we do with this?  A. 
Lay your hand upon it man.  B. 
To what purpose?  A. 
To swear.  B. 
I Use to swear by no books.  A. 
You shall not swear by the book/ but by God oncly.  B. 
So I purpose when I swear.  Cus. 
Did you never take an oath at an Assize before the Judges there?  B. 
No.  Cus. 
But would you refuse there to lay your hand on a book and swear?  B. 
Yea.  C. 
Then would your testimony not be taken.  A. 
Why man the book is no part of the oath/ it is but a ceremony.  B. 
A needless and wicked ceremony.  A. 
Why know you what you say? know you what book it is? it is the Bible.  B. 
I will swear by no Bible.  C. 
schismatics are clamorous always. it is a perpetual note to know them by. A. Mr. Dr. Cussins saith true/ such were the Donatists always in the counsels/ and such art thou and all other schismatics such as thou art.  B. 
Say your pleasure/ God forgive you: I am neither schismatic nor clamorous: I answer but your demands/ if you will I will be silent.  A. 
Well will you lay your hand on the Bible and take an oath.  B. 
I use to join no creatures to the name of God in an oath.  A 
Neither shall you/ this is but a custom commanded by law.  B. 
The law ought not to commanded a wicked custom.  A, 
Why/ is it not lawful to lay your hand on a book?  B. 
Yes/ but not in an oath.  A. 
Will you lay your hand in my hand/ and swear?  B. 
No.  A. 
Will you lay your hand on the table and swear?  B. 
No.  A. 
Will you hold up your hand towards heaven and swear?  B. 
That is not amiss: but I will use my liberty.  A. 
Why you hold it lawful to lay your hand on the table and swear?  B. 
Yea/ so it be not commanded and made of necessity.  A. 
Why/ the book is the like: it is nothing of the oath but a thing indifferent.  B. 
If it be nothing of the oath/ why do you so peremptorily enjoin it? and if it be indifferent as you say it is/ then do I well in not using it.  A. 
Nay/ you do not well in refusing it/ for therein you show your self disobedient to the higher powers set over you by God.  B. 
Even now you said it was a thing indifferent: if it be so/ there is no power can bring me in bondage to my liberty.  A. 
Where find you that?  B. 
In S Paul. 1. Cor. The Arch B. Archd. Dr. Cussins/ all denied it. I affirmed it. a little testament in greek and latin was brought me/ and a Bible I looked foe the place but could not find it: great salt was in my memory/ for I looked in the 10. chapter/ neither ●●deed could I bethink me where to find it/ they so interrupted me.  A. 
Your divinity is like your law.  B. 
The word of God is not the worse for my ill memory.  A. 
You speak not as you think/ for you are proud.  B. 
I have small cause to be proud of my memory/ you see that default of it: but the Apostle saith it. Again they all denied it. You than have no cause to condemn my memory/ seeing you all have utterly forgotten this saying. Then repeated I the words: All things are lawful for me/ but I will not be brought in bondage to my liberty. Then they recited. Rom. 14. and 1. Corint. 8. all things are lawful for me/ but all things are not expedient. I said I meant not that place.  A. 
I would like it well if you cited your place in Greek or Latin.  B. 
Why you understand English: is not the word of God in English? Then Cussin began to speak of indefinita propositio, but whereupon I can not call to remembranc: ● I told him we were now about the new Testament/ it might be if he had asked me that question when I knew him in Cambridge/ I should then have answered him he forthwith called to remembrance of what house I was.  A. 
Were you then of Cambridge?  B. 
Yea/ I knew you there. He said he was there before I was borne. I said it might be. Then he entered into discourse of his antiquititie. Then he asked me if I had read books/ as Calvin/ Beza etc▪ I answered that I had read more then enough: But yet I know not why I am imprisoned.  A. 
It is reported that you come not to church/ are disobedeent to her majesty/ and say that there is not a true church in England/ what say you/ have you at any time said thus?  B. 
These are reports. when you produce your testimony I will answer.  A. 
But I will better believe you/ upon your oath/ then them: how say you/ will you swear?  B. 
I will know what I swear to/ before I swear.  A. 
ffirst swear: and then if any thing be unlawfully demanded/ you shall not answer.  B. 
I have not learned so to swear/ I will first know and consider of the matter before I take an oath. Thus many things being alleged to and fro by us/ the Arch B. commanded Cussin to record/ that I refused to swear upon a book.  B. 
pea/ and set down also/ that I will not swear thus at random/ but first I will know and consider of the things I swear unto/ whither they require an oath.  A 
Well/ when were you at church?  B. 
That is nothing to you.  A. 
You are a schismatic/ a recusant/ a seditious person/ etc. with many such like.  B. 
Say what you list of me/ I freely forgive you.  A. 
I care not for your forgiveness.  B. 
But if you offend me/ you aught to seek it/ while you are in the way with me.  A. 
When were you at church?  B. 
I have answered that in an other place/ it belongeth not to you.  A. 
Why/ are you indicted?  B. 
I am.  A. 
Yet belongeth it to us/ I will not only meddle with you/ but arraign you as an heretic before me.  B. 
You 〈…〉 no more than God ●●●: Err I may/ but heretic will I never be.  A. 
Will you come to church hereafter?  B. 
ffuture things are in the Lords hands: if I do not/ you have a law.  A. 
Have you spoken these words of the church of England?  B. 
When you produce your witness I will answer.  A. 
But upon your oath I will believe you.  B. 
But I will not accuse myself. Then began he again to charge me with schism/ sedition/ heres●e.  B. 
You are lawless: I had rather you produced your witness.  A. 
Of what occupation are you?  B. 
A christian.  A. 
So are we al.  B. 
I deny that.  A. 
But are you a minister?  B. 
No.  A. 
A schoolmaster?  B. 
No.  A. 
What then/ of no trade of life?  B. 
In your letter/ you know my trade in the superscription.  A 
You are then a gentleman.  B. 
After the manner of our country a gentleman.  A. 
Serve you any man?  B. 
No I am God's freeman.  A. 
Have you lands.  B. 
No/ nor fees.  A. 
How live you?  B. 
By God's goodness/ and my friends  A. 
Have you a father alive?  B. 
Yea.  A. 
Where dwelleth he in Norfolk?  B. 
Yea.  A. 
Where dwell you/ in London?  B. 
No.  A. 
Well can you find sufficient surety for your good behaviour?  B. 
Yea/ as sufficient as you can take.  A. 
What/ you cannot have the Queen?  B. 
Neither can you take her/ she is the judge of her law: yet for my good behaviour/ I suppose I could get her word.  A. 
Doth she know you then?  B. 
I know her.  A. 
Else were it pity of your life.  B. 
Not so.  A. 
Can you have any of these that came with you/ to be bound for you?  B. 
I know not/ I think I can.  A. 
What know you them not?  B. 
I know one of them.  A. 
What is he?  B. 
A gentleman of Gray in.  A. 
What call you him?  B. 
Lacie.  A. 
But know you what band you should enter/ you are bound hereby to frequent our churches.  B. 
I understand you of my good behaviour.  A. 
And in it is this contained: and so you had forseyted your band at the first.  B. 
Well now I know your mind/ I will enter no such band.  A 
Then I will send you to prison. Then called he Watson the pursuvant/ and O. Cussins a part into a window/ where he made a warrant to send me to prison.  B. 
●ow shall not touch one hair of my head/ without the will of my heavenly father.  A. 
Nay I will do this to rectify you.  B. 
Consider what you do/ you shall one day answer it.  A. 
You will not swear: you will not enter bond for your appearance.  B. 
I will put in band for my bail in the prison/ and for my true imprisonment.  A. 
Nay/ that will not serve the turn/ Mr. Doctor/ enter these things. Then Cussins wrote that I refused to swear/ and enter bond.  ●. 
I will send some to you to confer.  A. B 
That were more requisite before my imprisonment. So the Arch B. delivered me to the pursuvant to ●arie me to the 〈…〉/ where I as yer 〈…〉/ neither knowing the cause of my imprisonment/ neither have I as yet heard from him.  
I was no sooner out of his house/ but I remembered the place in controversy: it is written. 1. Cor. 6. 12. All things are lawful for me/ but all things are not profitable: I may do all things/ but I will not be brought under the power of any thing.  
The lord knoweth to deliver the god● out of tentation and to rese●●e the ●●●ust unto the day of Judgement under punishment.  
THe 27. of November/ 8. days after I was committed by Cant. to the Gatehowse: I was sent for by one of his servants to make appearance before the high Commissioners at Lambeth: whither he and my keeper's man Nitholas carried me. There I found a very great train without/ but within a goodly Synod of Bbs. Oeanes/ Civilians/ etc. beside such an appearance of wel-fedde silken priests/ as I suppose might well have beseemed the ●aticaue. where after to my no small grief I had heard a schoolmaster deny his master Christ/ I was called.  
CAnterburie with a grim and an angry countenance beholding me/ made discourse how I refused to swear on a book etc. as fell out in our first meeting: and demannded whither I were now better advised/ and would swear. I answered/ that I would not refuse to swear upon due occasion and circumstances.  C. 
Will you then now swear?  B. 
I must first know to what.  C. 
So you shall afterward.  B. 
I will not swear unless I know before.  C. 
Well I will thus far satisfy your humour. London begun to interrupt/ but Cant/ cut him of/ and produced a paper of objections against me/ which he delivered to one Beadle to read. It contained much matter/ and many suggestions against me/ disorderly framed according to the malicious humour of mine accuser/ as/ that I denied God to have a true church in England: and to prove this/ the 4. principal causes framed in way of argument/ as/ the worship of God with us is idolatry: ergo/ no true church. They have an Antichristian and jdolatrous ministery: ergo no true church ffurther he saith/ that the reverend father in God/ my lord's grace of Cant. and all the Bps. of the land/ be Antichristes. ffurther he saith/ that all the ministers in the land are thieves and murderers/ and secret hypocrites/ and that all the preachers of the land are hirelings. That Mr. Wiggington and Cartwright strain at a gnat/ and swallow a camel.  
●●urther/ he 〈…〉 a● writer's/ as ●a●vin/ Beza/ etc. and saith that all catechisms are idolatrous/ and not to be used. The reasons to these were untruly and disorderley set down accordingly in the bill/ which I cannot rehearse. L. How say you Mr. Deane of Paul's/ here is for you/ you have written a catechism/  Cant. 
This fellow dea●es indifferently/ he makes us all alike. Thus far have I satisfied you: now you know what you shall swear unto: how say you/ will you swear now?  Lond. 
My lords grace doth not show this favour to many.  Can. 
ffetch a book.  Bar. 
It is needles.  C. 
Why/ will you not swear now.  B. 
An oath is a matter of great importance/ and requireth great consideration. But I will answer you truly/ Much of the matter of this bill is true/ but the form is false.  C. 
Go to sirrah/ answer directly/ will you swear? reach him a book.  B. 
There is more cause to swear mine accuser: I will not swear.  C. 
Where is his keeper? you shall not prattle here Away with him: clap him up close/ close/ let no man come at him: I will make him tell an other tale/ per I have done with him.  
There was an article against me in the bill/ for saying that I thought Elders were Bishops/ and Philip. 1. 1. produced here by I plainly discover mine accuser to be Thornelie of Norwich with whom I had communication at Ware as I road to London/ and never talked with any other about this matter.  
THe effect/ and so near as my frail memory could carry away/ the very words of such interrogatories and answers as were demanded of and made by me Henry barrow before certain Commissioners there unto especially appointed by her Majesty: namely the two L. chief Justice's/ the master of the Rolls/ the L. chief Baron/ and another Baron of the Exthequor I think Baron Gente: together with the Arch B. of Cant the B. of London/ the B. of Winchester/ certain of their Chancellor's and ●●uil Doctors with their Registers and Scribes. The 24. of March.  
I being brought before the Arch B of Cant he made known unto me that they were authorized by her Majesty to examine me upon my oath upon certain interrogatories and therefore called for a book/ there was brought a great bible in folio fair bound/ which the Arch B. refused/ and called for an other/ which was held to me by 〈…〉  Bar. 
To what end?  Cant. 
To swear.  B. 
I have not learned to swear by any creatures.  Cant. 
This is the word of God/ the Bible.  B. 
I began to open the book/ and meant in deed to have asked him/ if the Apocrypha scripture/ and notes which were in it/ were the word of God: but Cant. belike suspecting some such matter would not suffer me to look into it/ to whom then I answered that that book was not the eternal Word of God/ that eternal God himself/ by whom only I must swear/ and not by any books or Bibles.  Cant. 
So you shall swear by God.  Bar. 
To what purpose then is this book urged? I may swear by nothing besides him/ nor by nothing with him.  Winch. 
How prove you that?  B. 
It is so commanded in the book of the law. Deut. 6. and 10. Chapt. so expounded by sundry of the prophets/ by Christ himself and his Apostles.  Cant. 
Well will you swear that you will answer nothing but the truth/ and the whole truth/ to such Interr. as we shall demand of you?  B. 
I have learned to know the matter before I either swear or answer.  Cant. 
Set down that he will not swear.  L. E. 
Justice. You shall only swear to answer the truth: if any unlawful thing be demanded of you/ you need not answer.  B. 
My Lord/ every truth requireth not an oath/ there must great regard and reverence be used in an oath/ and an oath for confirmation ought to be the end of all strife: My Lo. if I should err/ and deliver it upon mine oath for truth/ it were a double sin/ likewise if I should either not know/ not remember/ or not utter the whole truth/ I were by such a rash oath forsworn: But by God's grace I will answer nothing but the truth.  Cant. 
A Christian man's word ought to be as true as his oath/ we will proceed with you without your oath/ (and taking a paper of Interr. in his hand/ said) what say you to this. Is it lawful to say the Pater noster publicly in the church/ or privately/ as a prayer or no?  B. 
I know not what you mean by your Pater noster/ unless peradventure that form for prayer which our saviour Christ taught his disciples/ commonly called the lords prayer.  Cant. 
I so mean. Then commanded he the first question to be thus written. Quest. 1. Wither he thinketh the lords prayer may publicly in the Church/ or privately be used as a prayer or no? (When I had expressed my mind/ the Arch B. commanded it should be recorded: but I desired the judges that I might with my own hand write my own answers/ which was granted me.) My answer then to the first question was. Ans. It is to be used to that end for which it was given by our saviour Christ to his disciples/ as a sununarie groundwork or foundation of all faithful prayers/ whereby to instruct and assure their consciences/ that their petitions are according to the will and glory of God: But that these prescript words are enjoined/ or that Christ 〈…〉 in the scripture. Moreover I see not how it can be used as a prayer/ seeing that our particular wants and present occasions and necessitie●/ are not therein expressed. And therefore I think it not to be used as a prayer. (Hear the Arch B. cried out for brevity/ and would not suffer me to answer any more questions at large.) Quest. 2. Whither he thinketh that any Leitourgies/ or prescript forms of prayer may be imposed upon the church: and whither all read and stinted prayers be mere babbling in God's sight? Ans. I find in the word of God 〈◊〉 such authority given to any man/ neither such stinted leitourgies prescribed or used in the primitive churches: and therefore hold it high presumption to impose any one devised Apocrypha prayer upon the church.  
Q. 3. Wither he thinketh that the common prayers commanded by the public authority of this land/ be idolatrous superstitious and popish? A. I think that this book of common prayer publicly enjoined and received in the assemblies of this land/ is well nigh altogether idolatrous superstitious and popish. Q. 4. Wither he thinketh that the Sacraments which are publicly administered in the church of England be true Sacraments or no? A. I think that the Sacraments as they are ministered in these public assemblies/ are not true Sacraments: and seal not the favour and blessing of God unto them. Q. 5. Wither he thinketh that the laws and government of the church of England now by authority established be unlawful and Antichristian/ or no? A. Because the laws decrees and canons of your church are so many and infinite/ I can not judge of them all/ because I know not all: but this I say/ that many of them/ as also your Ecclesiastical courts and governors/ be unlawful and Antichristian. Q. 6. Wither he thinketh that such as have been baptized in the church of England/ since Queen Elisabethes reign/ have been rightly baptized/ or aught to be baptized again? A. I think as before of your Sacraments/ that they have not been rightly baptized/ according to the institution of Christ: Yet that they need not/ neither aught to be baptized again. (I doubt lest the Arch B. hearing my answer of rebaptising/ caused it to be left out of the question and my answer/ taking that which might best serve their own turn/ to bring us into suspicion of error/ and hatred. Hereunto many speeches arising of the true and false Sacraments/ ministery/ government/ as also of the true and false church: I showed that the false church had also her Sacraments ministry/ government/ though not aright. Then Judge Anderson caused this question to be moved to me. Q 7. Wither the church of England as it standeth now established/ be the true established church of Christ: and whither the people therein/ be the true and faithful people of God/ or no. A. I think that these parish assemblies as they stand generally in England/ are not the true established churches of Christ: and that the people as they now stand in this disorder and confusion in them/ are not to be held the true and faithful people of Christ. Here the Judge Anderson took exception (as the B. of Lond. also) at these words (parish assemblies.) I answered the Judge/ that I could not for some weighty respects spare him that word: for I doubted not/ but that the Lord had many precious and elect vessels among them/ whom he will in his good time call forth/ whom it became not me absolutely to judge lest I should enter into God's seat: Yet I could not in the mean time whiles they stand members of these assemblies/ count them faithful. To the B. I said/ that when they should better consider of mine answer/ they should have less cause to find fault. Much trouble we had before we could agree of the state and words of their questions/ with putting out and changing/ which discourses it is not my purpose here to set down so much as the questions and answers agreed upon and recorded: although 〈◊〉 some causes known to myself/ and to some of their consciences which may hereafter be known to all the world/ I thought it not imper●●nent to insert this. Q 8. Wither he thinketh the Queen's majesty be supreme governor of the church: and whither she may ma●e laws for the church/ which are not contrary to the word of God/ or no? A. I think the Queen's majesty supreme governor of the whole land/ and over the church also/ bodies and goods: but I think that no Prince/ neither the whole world/ neither the church/ itself may make any laws for the church/ other than Christ hath already left in his word. Yet I think it the duty of every Christian/ and principally of the Prince/ to inquire out and re●●e the laws of God/ and stir up all their subjects to more diligent and careful keeping of the same. A● we had much a do to come to the state of this question/ so the 〈◊〉 showed themselves evil satisfied with my answer/ and said that the Papists dealt more simply than I did: and surely they very grievously interrupted me with slanders/ evil speeches and blasphemes/ during the time of my writing these answers/ especially the B of Lond. so that I was even enforced sometime to turn unto him and show him of his shameless untruths and slanders. The chief justice of Engl. here said that he thought I answered very directly and compendiously. Here again/ upon some speech that arose/ the Judge Anderson asked me whither I thought it lawful to hang a thief or no? I answered that there were many kind of thieves/ as sacrilegious thieves/ men stealers etc. that these aught by the laws of God to die. Then he said he meant ordinary thieves of goods and chattels. I said/ that God in the law had ordained an other kind of punishment for such/ whereupon the Bb. framed this question. Q. 9 Wither it be lawful for the Prince to alter the judicial law of Moses/ according to the state of her country and policy/ or no? A. I ought to be wise in sobriety/ and not to answer more than I know. Great doubt and controversy hath been about this question a long time/ but for my part I can not see/ that any more of the judicial law was or can be abrogated by any mortal man or country/ upon what occasion soever/ then belonged to the ceremonial law and worship of the Temple/ for which we have received other laws and worship in Christ's testament: but that the judgements due and set down by God for the transgression of the moral law/ cannot be changed or altered/ without injury to the moral law and God himself. Yet this/ as all my other answers by protestation/ that if any man can better instruct me therein by the word of God/ I am always ready to change my mind. Whereupon the chief Justice of Engl. said I spoke well: and therefore said if I were in doubt/ mine answer ought not to be taken. I said/ I doubted not/ but had set down my mind. Yet the Bbs. because my answer fitted not their turns/ as I think/ commanded the question and answer to be blotted out. Q. 10 Whither he thinketh that any private man may take upon him to reform/ if the Prince will not/ or neglect. (I asked whither they meant of a public reformation of the state/ or of a private or personal reformation of himself and his family: it was said/ of a public reformation) A. I think that no man may intermeddle with the Prince's office/ without lawful calling thereunto: and therefore it is utterly unlawful for any private man to reform the state/ without his good liking and licence/ because the Prince shall account for the defaults of his public government/ and not private men/ so they be not guilty with the Prince in his offences/ but abstain and keep themselves pure from doing or consenting to any unlawful thing commanded by the Prince/ which they must do as they tender their own salvation. Q. 11. Wither he thinketh that every parish or particular church ought to have a Presbytery? A. The holy government of Christ belongeth not to the profane or unbelieving/ neither can it without manifest sacrilege be set over these parishes as they now stand in confusion/ no difference made betwixt the faithful and unbelieving/ all being in differently received into the body of the church: but over every particular congregation of Christ there ought to be an eldership/ and every such congregation ought to their utter most power to endeavour thereunto. Now was I dismissed/ and committed again to my keeper/ with straight charge that no man might speak to me. During this time/ others of my brethren were examined/ which being done/ I was called for in unto them where Cant. showed me the statute of supremacy/ and asked me if I would take an oath according to the same. I said that in that form I could not/ neither could I swear to such successors as I knew not: but to her Majesty/ I acknowledged her authority as I had expressed in my article and protested my life in defence of her person prerogative and dignity loyally against all foreign and domestical enemies whither spiritual or temporal. The Arch B. said/ that the Papists made a better and more dutiful oath than this. I said it was not true/ they denied not/ neither defied the Pope: but I was ready to give and perform as much unto my Prince as any true subject aught to do. He asked me again whither the church of Christ/ if the Pruite deny or refuse to neglect abuses/ may without staying for the Prince reform them? I said/ that it might and aught though all the Princes of the world should prohibit the same upon pain of death. He asked me again whither the church of Christ might excommunicate the Prince/ and who should pronounce it? I said/ that sin obstinately stood in/ did excommunicate/ and that the church ought to have judgement ready against every transgression without respect of persons/ and that the Pastor of the church ought to pronounce it/ and alleged that excommunication/ was given unto the church as the only and last remedy for the salvation of the party in such cases/ and that the neglect thereof was both the neglect of God's judgements/ their duty/ and the Prince's salvation: and that they might as well take away all admonitions and reprehensions from Princes/ and so Princes were in a most miserable case. These my answers were not written with mine own hand/ but by the Register: And so was I sent again with more commandments yet to keep me more straightly. I requested at both times a copy of my answers/ but the Arch B. denied it me.  
Upon the 18. day of the 3. month/ I Henry barrow close prisoner in the ffleet/ was sent for in all post hast/ by one ragland a Gent. of the L. Chancellors to his lords chamber at the court at Whitehall: where being arrived/ I found in a withdrawing chamber/ 12. of the brethren/ among a great number of other attendances/ with whom I could not have any one word: But after that ●●gland had signified my coming/ I was forthwith sent for into that chamber/ where sat at the board the Arch B. in his pontificalibus/ the L. Chancellor/ the L. Treasurer/ the L. Buchhurst/ the B. of Lond. in his pontificalibus: at the lower end of the chamber stood Dr. Some/ Justice Young and others.  
BEing kneeled down at the end of the table/ the L. Treasurer began and asked me my name: which when I had told him he asked me if I had not been sometime of the court: I answered/ that I had sometime frequented the court: he said he remembered me not.  L. Treas. 
Why are you in prison barrow?  B. 
I am in prison my Lo. upon the statute made for recusantes.  L. Treas. 
Why will you not go to church?  B. 
My whole desire is to come to the church of God.  L. Tre. 
Thou art a fantastical fellow I see/ but why not to our churches?  B. 
My Lo. the causes are great and many/ it were too long to show them in particular: but briefly my Lo. I can not come to your church/ because all the profane and wicked of the land are received into the body of your church/ 2. You have a false and Antichristian ministry set over your church. 3. Neither worship you God aright/ but after an jdolatrous and superstitious manner: 4. and your church is not governed by Christ's Testament/ but by the Romish courts and canons/ etc.  L. Tr. 
Here is matter enough in deed: I perceive thou takest delight to be an author of this new religion. The L. Chanc. said he never heard such stuff before in all his life.  B. 
As I was about to show that neither I was an author of this religion and that it was not new as they supposed: the B. of Lo. interrupted me/ and asked me wherein their worship was jdolatrous? The L. Treas. also demanded the same question.  B. 
There is nothing else in that book of your common prayer: being demanded some particulars/ I showed that their saints days/ eves/ fasts/ idol feasts/ etc.  Lond. 
Stay there: why/ is it not lawful to keep a memorial of the Saints in the church?  B. 
Not after your manner: it is jdolarrie.  Lond. 
How prove now that?  B. 
By the 1. commandment.  Lond. 
Why/ that is/ thou shalt have no other Gods but me. What of that?  B. 
The word is/ Thou shalt have no other Gods before m● face. We are therefore forbidden to give any part of God's worship to any creature.  Lond. 
Why/ neither do we.  B. 
Yes/ you celebrate a day/ and sanctify an eve/ and call them by their names/ you make a feast/ and devise a worship unto them.  L. Tr. 
Why/ may we not call the day after their names? is not that in our liberty?  B. 
No my Lord.  L. Tr. 
How prove you that?  B 
In the beginning of the book it is written that God himself named all the days/ the first the second/ etc.  L. Tr. 
Why then we may not call them Sunday/ Monday etc.  B. 
We are otherwise taught to call them in the book of God.  L. Tr. 
Why thou they self callest it the lords day.  B. 
And so the holy Ghost calleth it in the ●. of the Revelation.  Lond. 
We have nothing in our saints days/ but that which is taken forth of the Scriptures.  B. 
In that you say true/ for you find no Saints days in the Scriptures.  Lond. 
We find their Histories and deeds in the Scripture.  B. 
But not their days and festivals in the Scripture. The Lo. Buckh. then said/ I was a proud spirit. The L. Treas. said I had a hot brain: and taking into his hand a book of common prayer/ which lay on the board/ read certain of the collects for the Sainted 〈…〉 Scripture: and asked me what I could 〈…〉 therein?  B. 
I mislike all for we ought not so to use Scriptures or prayers.  Lond. 
May we not make commemoration of the saints five in the church.  B. 
Not after your manner/ to give peculiar days/ eves/ fasts/ worship/ feasts unto them.  L. Tr. 
But what is there jdolatrous?  B. 
All/ for we ought not so to use the Scriptures.  Lond. 
What not in commemoration of the Saints?  B. 
As I have said not after your manner.  L. Tr. 
But what is evil here?  B. 
All my Lo. for by abusing the Scripture we may make it an jdol The circumstantes make evil things/ of themselves good/ as in the mass-book from whence this stuff is fetched/ there are sundry good collects and places of scripture which their superstitious abuse make abominable and evil. Likewise conjurers make many good prayers which the circumstances also make evil. Here the Lo. Buckh. said I was out of my wits.  B. 
No my Lorenzo I speak the words of soberness and truth as I could make plain if I might be suffered.  L. Tr. 
Here we pray/ that our lives may be such as theirs was void of covetousness  B. 
So ought we to do/ and not to read or have any part of the scripture without fruit/ and to follow and flee that which we find praised and discommended in them: yet ought we not to use the scriptures in this manner to days and times/ neither to be thus restrained or stinted in our prayers/ as to be tied to this form of words/ place/ time/ manner/ kneel/ stand etc.  L. Buckh. 
This fellow delighteth to hear himself speak.  (The L. Chanc. also spoke some what at that time/ which I cannot call to remembrance as yet) 
Then the Arch B. also spoke many things against me/ of small effect/ which I have also forgotten/ only this I remember he said/ I was & strower of errors/ and that therefore he committed me.  B. 
In deed you committed me half a year close prisoner in the gatehouse/ and I never until now understood the cause why/ neither as yet know I what errors they be/ show them therefore I pray you. The L. Buckh. again said I was a presumptuous spirit.  B. 
My Lo. all spirits must be tried and judged by the word of God: but if I err my Lo. it is meet I should be showed wherein.  L. Chanc. 
There must be straighter laws made for such fellows.  B. 
Would to God there were my Lo. our journey should be the shorter.  L. Tr. 
You complained to us of injustice/ wherein have you wrong?  B. 
My Lo. in that we are thus imprisoned without due trial.  L. Tr. 
Why/ you said you were condemned upon the statute.  B 
Unjustly my Lo. that statute was not made for us.  L. Tr. 
There must be straighter laws made for you.  B. 
O my Lo. speak more comfortably/ we have sorrows enough.  L. Tr. 
In deed thou lookest as if thou hadst a troubled conscience.  B. 
No I praise God for it. but 〈…〉 when against her faithful subjects. The L. Tr. answered that the Queen's sword was not as yet drawn against us. Then in a word or two I complaining of the misery and lingering close imprisonment which we suffer: the L. Tr: demanded if we had had no conference. The B. of Lond. answered that sundry had been with us▪ as D. Some/ Graviat and others/ but we mocked them that came unto us.  B. 
That is not true/ the Lord knoweth: we mock no creature. Neither do I know/ or have ever seen/ to my remembrance/ that Graviat you speak of. But miserable physicians are you all/ for Mr. Some he indeed was with me but never would enter disputation: he said/ he came not therefore/ but in reasoning manner to know some what of my mind more clearly. Some was then by the Arch B. called/ and demanded whither we had conference or no? Some showed how that at our last conference before Sr. A. G. there arose a question betwixt us/ whither the Prince might make a positive law/ de rebus me●ijs of things indifferent: I denying it/ he asked me whither she might make a statute for the reforming excess of apparel? I granted that she might. He then said it was a doctrine of devils to forbid meat by a positive law: he showed me then that the Prince's law did not bind the conscience/ and that there is a difference betwixt forum civil and forum conscientiae. Some to this effect. Mr. Young then uncalled came/ and accused me of unreverend speeches used against his Lords grace/ at my first conference with Some in my chamber: so they were dismissed. Then I beseeched the L●s. to grant a public conference/ that it might appear● to all men/ what we held/ and where we erred. The Arch B. in great choler said/ we should have no public conference/ we had published to much already/ and therefore he now committed us close prisoners.  B. 
But contrary to law. The L. Tr. said/ it might be upon such occasions done by law: and asked whither I had any learning? Cant. and Lond. with one consent answered together that I had no learning.  B. 
The Lord knoweth I am ignorant/ I have no learning to boast of: but this I know/ that you are void of all true learning and godliness.  L. Buckh. 
See the spirit of this man. Then requested I conference again/ and that in writing: which was again by Cant. very peremptorily denied. He said that he had matter to call me before him for an heretic.  B. 
That shall you never do: you know my former answer to that matter: well err I may/ but heretic/ by the grace of God will I never be.  L. Buckh. 
That is well said. The L. Tr: then taking up a paper of Sums abstract questions/ which lay among the Bs evidence against me/ read this: That I held it unlawful to enact a law that the ministers shall live by tithes/ or the people pay them: and demanded of me whither I held tithes unlawful?  B. 
My Lo. they are abrogated and unlawful.  L. Tr. 
Why/ tho●● wouldst 〈…〉 have the 〈…〉 of somewhat/ whereof should he 〈…〉?  B. 
Ex pura eleemosyna, of clear alms as Christ in his Testament hath ordained/ and as he and his Apostles.  L. Tr. 
But how if the people will not give?  B. 
Such are not the people of God.  L. Tr. 
But what shall the ministers do in the mean time?  B. 
Not stand a minister to such/ neither take the goods of the profane.  L. Tr. 
Where canst thou show me now in the Scriptures that the ministers now ought not to live upon tithes?  B. 
I took the bible and turned to these two places. Heb. 7/12. Gal. 6/6. in the one where tithes are abrogate: in the other/ that an other provision is made for them.  Lond. 
began the cavil at the words/ pure and clear alms: Cant. at the place in the Hebr. saying that the author's intent was to prove an abrogation of the priesthood.  B. 
Why/ the words of the text are these: If the priesthood be changed/ then of necessity must there be a change of the law: and you cannot deny but that tithes were a part of that law: alleging/ Num. 18.  L. Tr. 
What/ wouldst thou have him to have all my goods?  B. 
No my Lorenzo but I would have you to withhold none of your goods from helping him: neither rich nor poor are exempted from this duty. ffurder I showed/ that if the minister had things necessary/ as food and rapment/ he aught to hold himself contented: neither ought the church to give him more. Then had we some talk concerning the word Priest: the L. Tr. said that the ministers now were not to be called priests.  B. 
If they receive tithes they are priests. Moreover they be called priests in the law.  Lond. 
Why/ what is the word presbyter/ I pray you?  B. 
An elder.  Lond. 
What in age only?  B. 
No/ Timothy was a young man.  Lond. 
Presbyter is latin for a priest.  B. 
It is no latin word/ but derived/ and signifieth the same which the greek word doth/ which is an Elder. Lon. what makest thou a priest? B. Him that doth offer sacrifices/ for so it is written every where in the law. As we were thus reasoning/ the L. Chanc. asked me if I knew not those two men  (pointing to Cant. and Lond.) B. 
Yes my Lo. I have cause to know them.  L. Chanc. 
But what is not this the Bp. of London?  B. 
I know him for no Bishop my Lo.  L. Ch. 
What is he then?  B. 
His name is Elmar my Lo.  (The Lord pardon my fault/ that I laid him not open for a wolf/ a bloody persecutor and Apostata. But by this time/ the Wardens man plucked me up.) L. Chanc. 
What is that man?  (pointing to Cant.) B. 
The Lord gave me the spirit of boldness/ so that I answered: He is a monster/ a miserable compound/ I know not what to make him: he is neither Ecclesiastical nor civil/ even that second Beast spoken of in the Revelation.  L. Treas. 
Where is that place/ show it.  B. 
So I turned to the 13. Chap. and began at the 11. verse/ and read a little. Then I turned to 2. Thes. 2. But the Beast/ arose for anger/ gnashing his teeth/ and said/ wis you suffer him my Lords? So I was plucked up by the Wardens man from my knees/ and carried away. As I was ●e parting/ I desired the Lo. Treas. that I might have the liberty of the air/ but had no answer: and I prayed the Lord to bless their honours. So I was led forth by an other way than I came in/ that I might not see the brethren/ nor they me. This is the effect/ so near as my evil memory could carry away/ the very words that were used to me and by me in that place. The Lord pardon my unworthiness/ and unsanctified heart and mouth/ which can bring no glory to the Lord/ or benefit to his church: but rather reproach to the one/ and affliction to the other. But the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of tentation/ and to reserve the unjust until the day of judgement under punishment. The L. Treas. admonished me/ and told me that I took the Lords name often in vain: I have forgotten upon what occasion he spoke it. But I beseech the Lord that I may not forget this his good admonition/ but may set a more careful watch before my lips: for sure no doubt I am greatly guilty that way/ and never use his holy name with that reverence I ought.   

THe answers of John Grenewood/ at London palace/ before the 2. L. chief Justices of Engl. the Mr. of the Rolls/ the L. chief Baron/ together with the Arch B. of Cant. the B. of Lond. the B. of Winch. with others: to certain interrogatories as followeth.  
Q. WHat is your name? A. John. Grenewood. Q. Lay your hand upon the book/ you must take an oath. A. I will swear by the name of God if there be any need/ but not by or upon a book. Q. We will then examine you without an oath. Are you a minister? A. No/ I was one after your orders. Q. Who disgraded you? A. I disgraded myself through God's mercy by repentance. (then after many words/ they brought forth a paper containing certain articles in manner of questions as followeth) Q. Is is lawful to use the lords prayer publicly or privately as a prayer/ or no? A. It is a doctrine to direct all our prayers by: but seeing it containeth the doctrine of the holy Scripture/ no man can use the same as a private or public prayer/ because he hath not present need to ask all the petitions therein contained/ at one time: neither can comprehend them with feeling and faith. Q. Is it lawful or no? I will hear no prattling. A. It is not lawful for any thing I can see by the Scripture for theridamas is no commandment to say the very words over: and Christ and his Apostles prayed in other words according to their present necessity. Q. Is it lawful to use any stinted prayers either publicly or privately in prayer? A. They are Apocrypha/ and may not be used in the public assembly: the word/ and the graces of God's spirit/ are only to be used there. Q. Answer directly/ is it lawful to use them publicly or privately? A. Paul saith in Rom. 8. the spirit of God maketh request for us/ and, that we know not what to ask/ but the spirit helpeth our infirmities Q. Answer directly. A. It is not lawful to use stinted prayers invented by man/ either publicly or privately for any thing I can see by the Scriptures. Q. What say you then to the book of common prayer/ is it superstitious popish and idolatrous/ yea or no? A. I beseech you that I may not be urged by your law: I have thus long been close prisoner/ and therefore desire you to show me wherefore/ and not now to entangle me by your law. Q. Is it not your law now as well as ours: it is the Queen's law: You are a good subject. A. I am obedient as a true subject. But I took it we had reasoned of your popish canons. Q. Is not the common prayer book/ established by the Queen's law?  L. Chief Just. 
Tell us what you think of the book of common prayer/ you shall have liberty to calback what you will again. A. If it were in free conference/ as it hath been often desired by us/ I would so do.  Winch. 
Have you not used these words a year a go/ that it was popish superstitious and idolatrous? A. Yes I think I have: for it was taken out of the Pope's portuis. Q. Why would you not answer so before? A. Because I see you go about to bring me with in the compass of the law.  I. Anderson. 
What say you now to 〈◊〉? A. That there are many errors in it/ and the form thereof is disagreeable to the Scriptures.  Arch B. 
Is it contrary to the Scriptures. A. It must needs be contrary if it be disagreeable.  Winch. 
Whither hold you it idolatrous/ superstitious and popish? A. I have answered what I think of it: I hold it full of errors/ and the form thereof disagreeable to the Scriptures. Q. What say you for marriage: did not you marry one Boman and his wife▪ in the Fleet? A. No/ neither is marriage a part of the ministers office. Q. Who did use prayer? A. I think/ I did at that time use prayer. Q. Who joined their hands together? A. I know no such thing/ they did publicly acknowledge their consent before the assembly.  Sta●●p. 
I will make them do penance for it. A. There be some had more need show open repentance than they.  B. 
They may make such marriages under a hedge/ and it hath been along received order to be married by the minister. A. No/ there were many faithful witnesses of their consents: and if it were not lawful/ we have many examples of the ancient father's/ who by your judgement did amiss. Q. What say you to the church of England/ is it a true established church of God? A. The whole common wealth is not a church.  I. Anders. 
But do you know any true established church in the land? A. If I did/ I would not accuse them unto you. Q. But what say you/ is not the whole land as it standeth now ordered/ a true established church? A. No/ not as the assemblies are generally ordered/ if it please you/ I will show you the reasons.  L C. Just. 
No/ you shall have enough hereafter to show the reasons/ it is not now to be stood upon. Q. What do you say to the church of England as it is now guided by Bbs. is it Antichristian? A. Bp such Bs. and laws as it is now guided/ it is not according to the Scriptures.  Winch. 
Thou hast Scriptures often in thy mouth: is it then Antichristian. A. Yea/ I hold it contrary to Christ's word. Q. What say you to the Sacraments then/ be they true Sacraments? A. No/ they are neither rightly administered according to Christ's institution/ neither have promise of grace/ because you keep not the covenant. Q. Speak plainly/ are they true Sacraments or no? A. No/ if you have no true church y●w can have no true Sacraments. Q. How say you/ be we baptized? A. Yea/ you have the outward sign which is the washing/ but no true Sacrament. Q. How can that be? A. Very well. (then I thought to have showed reasons/ but I could not be suffered.) Q. Is it lawful Baptism? A. Yea. Q. Need we then to be baptized again if we had that ministery and government you speak of? A. No. Q. Should we be baptized at all? A. Yea/ or else if we contenme it/ we deny the profession of grace. Q. Do you hold it lawful to baptize children? A. Yea/ I am no Anabaptist I thank God. Q. How far differ you? A. So far as truth from errors. Q. You have a boy unbaptised/ how old is he? A. A year and a half. Q. What is his name? A. Abel. Q. Who gave him that name? A. Myself/ being father. Q. Why hath he not been baptized? A. Because that I have been in prison/ and cannot tell where to go to a reformed church/ where I might have him baptized according to God's ordinance. Q. Will you go to church to S●. Brides? A. I know no such church. Q. Will you go to Paul's? A. No. Q. Do you not hold a parish/ the church? A. If all the people were faithful having God's law and ordinances practised amongst them/ I do. Q. Then you hold that the parish/ do not make it a church? A. No/ but the profession which the people make. Q. Do you hold that the church ought to be governed by a Presbytery? A. Yea/ every congregation of Christ ought to be governed by that Presbytery which Christ hath appointed. Q. What are those officers? A. Pastor/ Teacher/ Elder/ etc. Q. And by no other? A. No/ by no other than Christ hath appointed. Q. May this people and presbytery reform such things as be amiss without the Prince? A. They ought to practise God's laws/ and correct vice br the censure of the word. Q. What if the Prince forbidden them? A. They must do that which God commandeth nevertheless. Q. If the Prince do offend/ whither may the presbytery excommunicate the Prince or no? A. The will church may excommunicate any member of that congregation, If the party continue obstinate in open transgression. Q. Whither may the Prince be excommunicate? A. There is no exception of person: and I doubt not but her majesty would be ruled by the word/ for it is not the men/ but the word of God which bindeth and looseth sin. Q. Whither may the Prince make laws in the government of the church/ or no? A. The Scripture hath set down sufficient laws for the worship of God/ and government of the church/ to which no man may add or diminish. Q. What say you to the Prince's supremacy/ is her majesty supreme head of the church: over all causes/ as well ecclesiastical as temporal? A. A supreme magistr●●● over all persons to punish the evil and defend the good. Q. Ever all causes? etc. A. No/ Christ is only head of his church and his laws may no man alter. Q. The pope giveth th●● much to the Prince. A. No/ that he doth not/ he setteth himself above Prince's ●nd exempteth his priesthood from the magistrates sword. Q. What say you to the oath of the Queen's supremacy/ will you answer to it? If these ecclesiastical orders be meant such as be agreeable unto the scriptures/ I will/ for I deny all foreign power. Q. It is meant/ the order and government with all the laws in the church as it is now established. A Then I will not answer to approve thereof.   

A brief sum of the examination of John Penrie/ by the right worshipful Mr. Fanshaw/ and Mr. Justice Young the 10. of the fourth moveth April. 1593.  Fansh. 
IT is strange unto me/ that you hold such opinions (Penry) as none of the learned of this age/ or any of the martyrs of former times mainterned. Can you show any writers/ either old or new/ that have been of your judgement?  Penr. 
I hold nothing/ but what I willbe bound to prove out of the written word of God/ and will show in regard of the special points controverted/ to have been maintained by the holy martyrs of this land/ who first assailed the Babylonis●▪ Roman kingdom/ as namely by Mr. Wicliffe/ Mr. Brute/ Mr. Purvey/ Mr. White etc. with many other the famous witnesses and martyrs of Christ in former times: and by Mr. Tindal/ Mr. Lambert/ Mr. Barns/ Mr. Lat●●er etc. the lords most blessed witnesses of this latter age. I spea● nothing here of the doctrine and practice of the reformed churches mother countries whom I have wholly of my side/ in the controversies of greatest moment.  F. 
But do the martyrs teach you that there is no church of Christ in England?  P. 
If you mean by a church (as the most do) that public profession whereby men do profess salvation to be had by the death and righteousness of Jesus Christ/ I am free from denping any church of Christ to be in this land: for I know the doctrine touching the holy trinity/ the natures and offices of the Lord Jesus/ free justification by him/ both the Sacraments/ etc. published by her majesties authority and commanded by her laws/ to be the Lords blessed and undoubted truths/ without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had.  F. 
Seing you acknowledge that her majesty hath established the truth in so many weighty pomtes/ seeing she hath commanded the true Sacraments to be administered: what mislike you in our church/ and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with us.  P. 
I mislike/ 1. the false ecclesiastical offices/ 2. the manner of caling unto the offices/ 3. a great part of the works wherein these false officers are employed/ 4. the maintenance or livings/ whereby they are maintained in their offices: all which/ I willbe bound to prove (by the Lords help) to be derived/ not from Jesus Christ/ but from the kingdom of Antichrist his great enemy. And therefore for as much as I cannot be partaker of the former holy things of God/ but I must be subject unto the power of Antichrist in these officers/ and known by those marks whereby his subjects are noted/ therefore I am enforced and bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacraments/ where I may have them without the submitting of myself unto any ecclesiastical power in religion/ save only unto that which is derived from Christ Jesus the Lord/ in whom all fullness of power dwelleth/ (Col. 1. 19) and from whom all those must derive their power and office/ unto whom the saints of God are to submit their consciences to be wrought upon in religion. Again/ seeing the forenamed 4. enormities of this church/ are marks which properly belong unto the kingdom of the Beast/ viz. of the Roman Antichrist/ we dare not have any communion and fellowship with them/ nor be known by them/ least we should be partakers of those most fearful and most dreadful judgements/ which are denounced by the spirit of God/ against all those that have communion with any of the irreligious inventions of that Beast. Revel. 14/9. 10. These are the things/ together with the want of Christ's true order/ which I especially mislike/ and the special causes why I dare not join with the assemblies of this Land. 1. the false offices whereby these assemblies are guided/ and by whom the whole worship is performed in them: 2. their manner of caling/ 3. a great part of the devised works wherein these officers are conversant. 4. the livings consecrated sometimes unto Idols for the most part/ whereby they are sustained in their offices.  F. 
What offices mean you?  P. 
I mean the offices of Lord Arch Bbs. and Bbs. Archdeatons/ Commissaries/ Chancellor's/ Oeanes/ Canon's/ Prebendaries/ priests/ Deacons/ etc. All which/ properly belong to no other body either 〈…〉 or 〈…〉/ but only unto the Romish Church/ wh●●● they were first invented/ where they now are/ and by whom they were left in this land/ when the head of that body the Pope and some other of his members were cast out by her majesty/ and our sovereign Lord her noble father. The church of Christ is perfect without them/ in all her offices: the civil state is absolute without them/ for they are ecclesiastical: Heathen idolatry hath them not/ and requireth them not/ only the kingdom of Antichrist can in no wise be whole and entire without them/ whereof (as I say) they are visible and known members. Now if it be not lawful for me/ or any other member of Christ/ to be subject unto the orders and ceremonies of the old law as circumcision/ etc. Which sometimes were the Lords own blessed ordinances: how can it be but sin unto us to be subject to the constitutions of Antichrist/ the main adversary of the Lo. Jesus? The Lord hath not delivered us from the Yoke of his own law/ that we should be in bondage unto the inventions and order of Antichristes kingdom and offices.  F. 
Belike you would have no other offices in the church now in the time of peace and prosperity/ then were in the Apostles days under persecution?  P. 
There is great reason we should not: for if the order left by Moses in the church: was not to be altered/ to be diminished or added unto/ except it were by special commandment from the Lord: (1. Chron. 28/19.) then may not any man or Angel/ but upon the same warrant/ add any thing unto that holy form/ which the son of God left for the ordering of his own house: for/ as the Apostle saith/ Hebr. 3/3. he/ (Yea and his ordinances) are worthy of more honour than Moses his were. And he that addeth unto the words of this book/ that is/ to the true order of the church/ and pure worship of God contained therein/ the Lord God will add unto him of the plagues that are written in this book/ saith the spirit of God. Revel. 22/19.  F. 
You allow of M. Luther/ I am sure/ what office had he?  P. 
He was first a monk/ and so a member (by his office) of the kingdom of Antichrist/ even a good while after the Lord had used him as a notable instrument to overthrow that kingdom/ afterward he was utterly disgraded and deprived of all offices/ so that as the spirit of God saith (Reu. 13. 17.) he could neither buy nor sell by virtue of any liberty or freedom that he had within the kingdom of the Beast. And by this means in the Lords great favour/ he carried not in this regard any of the Beasts marks/ he was not of his name/ nor of the number of his name: he denied himself to belong to that kingdom of Satan/ and that malignant church utterly refused him to be any of her body and members. Since his excommunication and degradation by the Romish/ church/ he nameth himself Ecclesiasten, in a book of his so 〈…〉/ that is a preacher of Christ's blessed truth and gospel. Now whither he preached by virtue of a lawful office whereunto he was called in the church of Christ/ or whither he taught b● virtue of his gifts/ and the opportunity which he had to manifest the truth/ having neither time nor leisure/ nor yet thinking it needful (it mar. be) to consider by what office he did it/ I know not: of this I am assured/ that he was one of the famous and glorious witnesses of the Lo. Jesus/ raised up to testify on his behalf/ against the abominations of the kingdom of Antichrist: and I am assured that by his tongue and pen the Lo. appeared glorioussie in the power of his gospel/ to the consumption of that man of sin. (2. Thes. 2/8.) Of his office I judge the best/ as of a matter unknown unto me/ that is/ I think him to have had a pastoral office in the church of Wittenberg/ whither he had or not/ his example is no law for the church to walk by/ it is Chr. Jesus alone that we must hear and follow/ according to his will and word must we frame our walking/ and if it be an Angel from heaven that will draw us to serve from the same/ we dare not give ear unto him. Gal. 1. 8. 9  F. 
And what office had you in power church/ which meet in woods and I know not where?  P. 
I have no office in that poor congregation: and as for our meetings either in woods or any where else/ we have the example of our saviour Christ/ of his church and servants in all ages/ for our warrant: it is against our wills that we go into woods/ or secret places: as we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ/ so our desire is to profess the same openly/ we are ready before men and Angels/ to show and to justify our meetings and our behaviour in them/ desiring earnestly that we may have peace and queietnes to serve our God even before all men/ that they may be witnesses of our upright walking towards our God and all the world/ especially towards our Prince and country. We know that meeting in woods/ in taves'/ in mountains/ etc. is a part of the cross and baseness of the gospel/ whereat it is easy for the natural man to stumble: but we are gladly partakers of this mean estate for the Lords sacred verity: and the question should not be so much where we meet/ as what we do in our meetings/ whither our meetings and doings he warranted by the word or not/ and what enforced us to meet in these places.  F. 
We will speak of yr unlawful assemblies afterwards: but what caling have you to preach/ were you never made minister according to the order of this land?  P. 
I might/ if I had been willing/ have been made either Deacon or priest/ but I thank the Lo. I ever disliked those popish order's/ and if I had taken them/ I would utterly refuse them/ and not stand by them at any hand. I have taught publicly in the church of Scotland, being thereunto desired earnestly/ and called by the order of that church: charge I never had any/ and therefore I never bore office either there or in any other church.  F. 
Did not you preach in these your secret meetings: what war it have you so to do/ if you have no public office in your church?  P. 
Wither I did or not/ I do not tell you for the present: But this I say/ that if the same poor congregation desired to have the use of my small gifts for the instruction and consolation thereof I would being thereunto prepared/ most willingly bestow my poor talon to their mutual edification and mine.  F. 
And may you teach in the church publicly/ having no public office therein?  P. 
I may because I am a member thereof/ and requested thereunto by the church/ and judged to be endued in some measure with gifts meet for the handling of the Lords sacred word. The body of Christ/ (that is every particular congregation of the church) ought to have the use of all the gifts that are in any member thereof and the member cannot deny unto the body the use of those graces wherewith it is furnished/ except it will break the law●● and order of the body and become unnatural/ unto the same. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12.  F. 
Then every one that will may preach the word in your assembly?  P. 
Not so for we hold it merely unlawful yea tending to the Anabaptistical inversion of all good order in the church/ for any man to intermeddle with the Lords holy truth/ beyond the bounds of his gifts: or pet for him that is endued with gifts/ to preach or teach in the church/ except he be desired/ and called thereunto by the body.  F. 
But may any preach/ that hath not an office in the church so to do?  P. 
Yea that he may/ and the word of God bindeth him to preach/ whosoever he be that intendeth to become a Pastor or Teacher in the church of Christ/ before he take his office upon him/ and bindeth the church to take the trial of his gifts before they give him his office/ least otherwise he should not be meet for it/ or at the least/ that hands should not be suddenly laid upon him. 1. Tim. 3/10. and 5/23.  F. 
What office hath he all this while?  P. 
No other office than every member of the body hath/ who are bound to have their several operation in the body according to that measure of grace which they derive from their head the Lo. Jesus/ by the power of his spirit working in them/ Rom. 12. 3/ 4. The word caleth these by the name of prophets/ not such as do foretell things to come/ but those who are furnished with graces meet for the interpretation and application of the word unto the edification and comfort of the church/ as the Apostle teacheth us expressly 1. Corint. 14. and therefore mistake not the word prophet or prophesy as though we leaned unto any inward revelations or motions/ beside the written word.  F. 
I know well enough what you mean/ and will not mistake your words/ for the Scripture useth them in that sense.  P. 
Now it should be no new thing unto you/ to hear that they may preach who have no office in the church/ seeing this is so common a thing in the colleges and universities of this land.  F. 
Yea that is in the schools.  P. 
If that exercise/ whereof you and I mean I am sure/ be in your confession warantable in the schools and colleges/ it is much more in the church and 〈…〉 the church and assemblies of his saints should have the use and excercise of his holy word/ and not that it should be brought to human schools whither it never came into the lords mind to command that ever it should enter. Let the arthes'/ tongues/ and other human knowledge be taught in schools and let the holy truth and exercises of religion be dernied from the church of Christ/ which the Apostle for this purpose caleth the pillar and ground of truth.  F. 
Well then you bear no office in this your church/ you will not tell us whither ever you taught amongst them or not/ but you would you say if they required you.  P. 
True.  F. 
But how came it to pass that you were not mad● an officer amongst them?  P. 
Surely I was desired to take a charge and to continue with them/ but I would not/ because it hath been my purpose always to unploy my small talon in my poor country of Wales where I know that the poor people perish for want of knowledge: and this was the only cause of my coming out of that country where I was/ and might have stayed privately all my life/ even because I saw myself bound in conscience to labour for the caling of my poor kindred and country men/ unto the knowledge of their salvation in Christ/ purposing in deed before I had gone thither/ to have offered myself unto her majesty or some of their honours/ that it might be made known unto her highness/ what I hold in religion/ and how clear I am of those grievous crimes of sedition and disturbing of her majesties peaceable government/ wherewith I am wrongfully charged.  F. 
Why/ you labour to draw her majesties subjects from their obedience unto he laws/ and from this church of England/ to hear you and such as you are/ teaching in woods.  P. 
Nay I persuade all men unto the obedience of my Prince and her laws/ only I dissuade all the world from yielding obedience and submission unto the ordinances of the kingdom of Antichrist/ and would persuade them to be subject to Christ Jesus and his blessed laws/ and I know this enterprise to be so far from being repugnant unto her majesties laws/ as I assure myself that the same is warranted thereby. Her majesty hath granted in establishing and confirming the great charter of England/ (whereunto/ as I take it/ the kings and queens of this land are sworn when they come to their crown/) that the church of God under her should have all her rights and liberties inviolable for ever. Let the benefit of this law be granted unto me and others of my brethren/ and it shallbe found that we have done nothing but what is warrantable by her laws.  F. 
What? is it meet that subjects should charge their princes to keep covenant with them/ and enter to scan what oaths they have take for this purpose: where find you this warranted up scripture?  P. 
The subjects are in a most lamentable case/ if they may not allege their prince's laws for their acti●●s/ yea and show what their princes have promised unto the Lord and to them/ when the same may be for declaration of their innocency: and it is the crown and honour of Princes/ to be known not only to hold/ but even to be in covenant with their subjects/ that they will maintain and preserve them from violence and wrong: nay heathen Princes have thought themselves honoured/ when their mean subjects have charged them very earnestly with the covenants whereby they were bound unto their people. The laws of this land are so full this way as no man conversant in them can be ignorant that our Princes have preferred the observing of those equal covenants whereby they are tied unto their people/ before the accomplishing of their own private affections/ yea and commandments in some cases. Hence it is that the judges of this land are bound by law to administer justice and equity unto the poor subjects/ notwithstanding that the prince's letters be directed to them to the contrary. And as to the law of God all kings and princes are bound there by/ to be so far from thinking themselves tied by no bands unto their subjects as they are plainly forbidden even to be lifted up in mind above their brethren (Deut. 1●. 20.) for so the word in that place calleth their subjects and servants. The kings of Judah who had the greatest privileges and prerogative both ecclesiastical and civil/ over their people/ that ever any kings or Princes can have because they were types and figures of that great king of kings the Lorenzo Jesus: evered into covenant notwithstanding with their people/ even particularly/ beside the general former law whereby they were bound unto them. Yea the prophet Jeremy being in no less danger and disgrace with all estates than I and my brethren are at this present/ required his sovereign Lord and king Zedekiah to promise that he would do him no violence and wrong nor yet suffer others to do the same/ for telling him the truth of the word/ in the things wherein the king required/ to be resolved at his hands: the which thing/ Zedekiah yielded unto/ and that by an oath and covenant of the Lord. Jer. 38. 15. 16. Whereby it appeareth/ that it is not without great warrant of the word/ that princes should enter covenant with their subjects/ and that subjects/ should require promise and oath to be kept with them/ otherwise whereto serveth the covenant? But alas I enter not to scan her majesties oath/ I only tell you what her laws allow me and my poor brethren. And I am assured if her majesty knew the equity and uprightness of our cause/ we should not receive this hard measure which we now sustain. We and our cause/ are never brought before her/ but in the odious weeds of Sedition/ rebellion/ schism, heresy, etc. and therefore it is no marvel too see the edge of her sword turned against us.  F. 
Hath not her majesty by her laws established these offices and this order that now is in the church of England▪  P. 
Her laws have I grant/ of oversight/ as taking them for the right offices and order which appertain unto the church of Christ: the which because we evidently see that they are not/ therefore fly we unto her former promise and act/ whereby she granteth us the enjoying of all the privileges of the church of Christ.  F. 
Why then go ye about to pull down Bps?  P. 
Alas/ far be it from us/ that ever we should intend any such actions: we only put her majesty and the state in mind of the wrath of God that is likely to come upon this land/ for the upholding of many Romish inventions. We labour to save our own souls/ and all those that will be warned by us/ in avoiding all corruptions in religion/ and practising the whole will of our God/ as near as we can. Further than this we have no caling to go/ and therefore dare not so much as once in thought conceive of any thing that we should do in the altering or pulling down of any thing established by her laws.  F. 
Why then meet you in woods/ and such suspicious and secret places/ if you purpose no insurrection for the pulling down of Bps?  P. 
I have told you the reason before: our meetings are for the pure and true worship of God/ and there is not so much as a word or thought of Bps. in our assemblies except it be in praying for them/ that the Lord would show mercy and favour unto them/ which we wish as to our own souls. Our meetings are secret/ as I told you/ because we cannot without disturbance have them more open. Our earnest desire and prayer unto our God and our governors is/ that we might have them open/ and not be enforced to withdraw ourselves from the sight of any creature. Of the Lords pure worship in the congregation of his people/ be we bound to be partakers/ and that in woods/ in mountains/ in caves etc. as I told you/ rather than not at al.  F. 
Then you are privy unto no practice or intent of any sedition or commotion against her majesty and the state/ for the pulling down of Bps?  P. 
No I thank God/ nor ever was: and I protest before heaven and earth/ that if I were/ I would disclose and withstand the same/ to the uttermost of mineabilitie in all persons of what religion soever they were.  Young. 
But what meant you Penry/ when you told me at my house/ that I should live to see theday/ wherein there should not be a Lo. Bp. left in England?  P. 
You do me great injury Sr. but I am content to bear it. This was it that I said unto you/ namely that I gainsaid nothing in this whole cause/ but what I could prove out of the word of God/ to be the remnants of the popish Antichristian kingdom which religion I said/ the Lord hath promised utterly to overthrow and consume/ in so much as you (said I) may live/ though you be already of great years (for myself I may be cut of by untimely death) to see all the offices/ callings/ works and live/ derived from/ or belonging at any time unto the kingdom of Antichrist/ utterly overthrown in this land: for the Lo. hath promised that that man of sin/ that body of the Antichristian religion/ shallbe so consumed by the breath of his mouth and the brightness of his appearing in the power of his gospel/ before his second coming (2. Thes. 2.) as that false synagogue shall have no power in any of her officers or parts/ either to be lifted up over the 〈…〉 of God/ viz/ over any thing that is called holy/ or yet to oppose herself/ as a bloody adversary unto those truths and servants of Christ who refuse to be in spiritual bondage and slavery to her. This I showed you to be verified in the type/ Babylon of the Chaldeans/ according to the word of the Lo. spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah and the casting of the stone into Euphrates by Sheraiah at Jeremy's commandment (Isa. 13. 19 20. Jer. 50. 40. and 51. 61. 64.) and this I showed to be decreed by the Lo. of hosts/ against the true body/ the Antichristian Babel under the new testament/ for so we are taught by the spirit of God/ that she shallbe consumed and be no more/ that her chapmen shall in this life bewail/ and the saints of God rejoice at her utter over throw and at the spoil and decay of her merchandise/ Revelat. 18. The comparing of the act done by Sheraiah against the type/ and what followed thereupon/ with that of the Angel against the true Babylon/ I declared most fully to confirm my speech: for Sheraiah throwing the stone into Euphrates said/ thus shall Babel be drowned and rise no more, and so it came to pass: the Angel in the Revel casting the great stone into the sea/ saith/ with such violence shall the great city Babylon be cast, and shallbe found no more: and so it willbe accomplished I am sure. This was my speech unto you Mr. Young/ and I beseech you/ yea and charge you as you shall answer in that great day/ not to misreport my speeches/ but to relate them as they are uttered by me.  Y. 
I conceived some great matter of your speech I tell you.  P. 
You did me the greater wrong therein: I pray you hereafter to conceive of my words/ according to my meaning/ and their natural signification.  F. 
You say that these offices and live/ derived in your conceit from the body of Antichrist/ shallbe overthrown by the Lord/ we would know how you mean that this willbe accomplished?  P. 
I have already showed you/ that this work shallbe done by the appearing of Jesus Chr. in the shining brightness of his gospel/ through the efficacy whereof/ the Lord shall so lay them open/ as he will put into the hearts of Princes and states/ where in they are now maintained/ to abolish their offices/ callings and works utterly from among men/ and to employ their live unto the holy civil uses of the Princes and states wherein they are. After this sort did the Lord consume the Pope's primacy/ office and maintenance which he had in this land/ and after this manner did he consume by his gospel/ the Cardinal's/ Prior's/ Abbot's/ Monks/ friars and Nuns out of this land/ and after this or some other way seeming best to his wisdom/ shall he  (I doubt not) 
consume the rest of that body of miquitie/ now remaining where soever. The work I am assured shallbe accomplished/ because the Lo. hath said it in his written word: the manner how/ or the time when it shallbe performed/ I leave to him who ruleth all things according to the counsel of his own will/ and whose ways and judgements are past finding out.  F. and Y. 
What you do or purpose to do in these your assemblies we cannot tell: but this is sure/ that the Papists seem to be so encouraged by tijis dealing of yours/ that there were never so many of them in this land since her majesties reign/ as are at this present and they themselves say that your separating from us a great stumbling block unto them/ whereby also they take occasion to do the like.  P. 
What we do in our meetings/ and what our purposes are/ I have told you simply as in the presence of the Lord/ and wear ready by the grace of God to approve our actions and purposes to be in all good conscience both towards the Lord and our Prince/ and toward all men: if the number of the idolatrous ignorant Papists be increased/ it is no wonderful case/ by reason of the small teaching that the poor people of the land have: and their increase is in the just judgement of God/ in that so many remnants of popery are left unbanished in the land/ but specially because these baits are retained here whereby the Pope is continually drawn to send over his Jesuits and Seminaries/ whereby also they are most easily and willingly induced to come and pervert her majesties subjects from their obedience unto the Lord and his lieutenant and to betray their native prince and country into the hands of aliens and strangers.  F 
What are those baits that you mean?  P 
I mean the former popish offices and their live whereof I spoke/ as the offices and live of Archb●s. Lo. Bps. Deans/ Archdeacon's/ Cannon's/ Priests/ etc. the continuance whereof/ and of the popish corruptions belonging to them/ keepeth the Pope and his sworn subjects: in daily hope of replanting the throne of iniquity again in this land/ whereof I trust in the Lo. that they shallbe utterly disappointed. The traitorous Jesuits and seminary priests/ hoping to possess these execrable live and offices again/ are also thereby alured readily to become most unnatural traitors against their natural Prince and country/ and the Papists at home/ be by this means kept still in remembrance of that Romish Egypt/ and in continual expectation of their long desired day: whereas if these offices and live were once removed (the devised works and callings would fall with them) the Pope and his trafiquers would be utterly void of all hope to set up the standard of the man of sin again in this noble kingdom/ here being not so much as an office/ or one penny of maintenance left for any of his members: the Jesuits and priests would have no allurements to make them rebels against their Prince/ and the other seduced Papists at home/ would easily forget their idolatry/ there being here neither office nor any other monument of that antichristian religion left/ to put them in mind of that Babel/ and so the Lord would accomplish that which th'apostle saith shallbe fulfilled/ even the utter consuming of the man of sin in this land. (2. Thes. 2.) And therefore the retaining of these offices and live/ are not only joined with the great dishonour of God/ and the offence of his saints/ 〈…〉 my 〈…〉 of 〈…〉 of this noble kingdom/ yea and of the prosperity and welfare of her majesties most royal person/ (whom the Lo. bless body and soul from all dangers both at home and abroad) as it is well known by over many popish treacheries intended against her. I marvel not that the papists dislike our separation/ and you may be assured that if they knew what may bring us into danger or discredit us with her Majesty's with any of our superiors/ the honourable and worshipful magistrates under her highness or any else of our countrymen/ they willbe sure to utter the same though it were in their own consciences never so untrue. For they know that of all the men under heaven/ we are the greatest enemies unto their religion/ we leave the same neither branch nor root/ but would have all the world to be as clear of that spiritual cotagion/ as it was the same day wherein the Lorenzo Jesus went up on high/ and led captivity captive. Their reason of their separation drawn from our example/ is like their religion. We dare not join with thassemblies of the land notwithstanding that we know many of the truths of Jes. Christ to be professed therein/ because in the offices and many of the works remaining in them/ we should have communion with the religion of the Roman Antichrist in many of the works and inventions thereof: they on the other side will not join with the public worship of the Land/ because thereby they should have overmuch communion with the doctrine of Christ/ and over little with the poisoned inventions ordained by Satan in the Romish Synagogue/ and who moved them to their treason and disobedience/ before we took this course. Is their reason any thing tolerable/ that because we endeavour to worship the Lord purely/ they should take example thereby to give themselves wholly to the worship of Satan?  F. 
But why refuse you conference/ that you may be reform in those things wherein you err?  P. 
I refuse none/ I am most willing readily to yield unto any/ as Mr. Young hath it to testify under my hand: only my desire and request is/ that I may have some equal conditions granted unto me and my poor brethren in it/ the which yet if I can not obtain/ I am ready to yield unto any conference though never so unequal/ yea I am desirous of any conference that her majesty and their honours may be truly informed of that which I and my brethren do hold/ and of the warrant that we have thereof from the word of the Lord. Only I crave that my judgement/ my reasons/ my answers may be reported in my own words/ and hereof I beseech your worships to bear witness withme. Lastly I beseech you to consider/ that it is to no purpose that her majesties subjects should bestow their time in learning/ in the study and meditation of the word of God/ in the reading of the writings and doings of the learned men/ and holy martyrs that have been in former age/ 〈…〉 the writings published by her majesties authority: if they may not without danger profess and hold those truths which they learn out of them/ and that in such sort as they are able to convince all the world that will stand against them/ by no other weapons then by the word of God. Consider also I pray you/ what a lamentable case it is/ that we may join with the Romish church in the inventions thereof/ without all danger/ and cannot but with extreme peril be permitted in judgement and practice to dissent from the same/ where it swarveth from the true way. And as you find these considerations to carry some weight with them/ so I beseech you be a means unto her majesty and their honours/ that my case may be weighed in even balance. Imprisonments/ inditements/ yea death itself/ are no meet weapons to convince men's consciences. (. ˙)    

Faults escaped.  
Page 2. in the Preface/ lin. 4. after but, read chiefly by other writings and books by themselves set out heretofore. Here etc. Pag. 6. lin. 33. after such band. read. A. Will you enter band to appear on tuesdey next at our court, and so on thursday if you be not called, and be bound not to departed until you be dismissed by order of our court● B. No. A. Then etc.