LETTERS That passed between Mr. BAXTER AND Mr. TOMBS Concerning the Dispute. LONDON, Printed in the Year 1652. IT goes against my mind to trouble the Reader with these following Letters between Mr. T. and me. But his Relations have made it necessary, that it may appear, Whether all my endeavour was not to keep off, if possibly I could, from appearing against him in this Cause in writing; nor did I ever desire the Dispute but merely to shift off writing, when his followers drove me on to it: and had far rather have been quiet from both: but it was beyond my power to attain it without the betraying the truth. For I discerned a strong probability of his Design was to have got something from me, and then have published his answer to it (which he now denies not,) as superficially as he did by others; or else have forced me to disclaim the contest, that so it might be carried abroad either that I was confuted, or that I durst not dispute it. After his Followers had earnestly pressed me to write my Arguments, and I to put it by, had told them I thought verbal disputing more convenient, if they must needs have one, this following I received from Mr. Tombs. For my Reverend and much Honoured Brother Mr. Richard Baxter at Kidderminster, these. SIR, I Perceive by some speech with Philip Munne, that you propound a disputing the point in difference between me and you about Infant-baptism in some open way of speech, and to have me declare my arguments against it. Open dispute by words for a great number of reasons I affect not: my affairs, and the state of your body and business are likely to make it uncertain, and to protract the time: my Arguments are to be seen in my Writings. This is in effect my plea against it, that it is Will-worship, because not appointed by God. The most expedite and surest way I conceive to bring the controversy to an issue, for you in a Syllogism or two written by you to produce what Medium you have to prove a Divine institution of Pedo-baptism, which being written may the better be examined; verbal conference, is less deliberate, and more unsatisfactory. If you cannot yourself write, if you show in a printed Author the best Argument you know for it, it may perhaps serve the turn as well. I leave it to yourself to do as you see good, and rest Bewdley, Sept. 2. 1649. Your loving Brother and Fellow servant in Christ John Tombs. To my Reverend and much valued friend Mr. Tombs, Preacher of the Gospel at Bewdley. SIR, THough your people my neighbours have much room in my affections, and I hearty desire their unity and steadfastness: yet do not think that I have a mind to take upon me to be their Teacher, and to play the Bishop in your Diocese, much less to be so rude as to challenge you to a Dispute. But some of your people having been several times soliciting me to do something towards the determining of this controversy, I still told them that I thought a dispute the fittest way; but they told me that you refused it. The messenger that came on Saturday, came on the like errand, and before I understood that he came with your consent and privity, I told him I would do nothing without a call from more of your people, and without your consent. The offer I made to him I now make again to you: that if to you or your people a debate seem necessary and , (for I or my people do not desire it much, but affect quietness) I shall (if God enable me) spend a day or two in public conference with you (as far as my strength will bear.) 2 Or if you so absolutely refuse that, that there is no hopes of it, I offer, that if you will preach two Sermons against it, and I two for it, and so let fall the debate, and leave it to the people's judgement, I shall agree to it. 3 If you absolutely refuse both these (which seem to me the only means) if you can contrive how to make a short dispatch, and give me sufficient assurance of it upon equal terms before we begin, I shall consent to write. But to write without such assurance I cannot for these reasons. 1 I have ground enough to be confident that it will never be ended while you and I both live, except either be convinced, which I discern to be unlikely; Though for my own part, I resolve to yield to the most disgraced truth, and to search as impartially as I can; yet I am somewhat confident that you are in an error, and you are more confident that you are not, and so we are likely to remain. 2 If I should waste so much time on so small a thing (comparatively) it would wound my conscience. 3 Especially being ignorant in so many far greater, which I am bound to study in the first place. 4 I am engaged in more work already then I am able to go through; having one Treatise in the Press, whereof part is unfinished, and another or two at least under hand: besides public preaching which takes up all my time, save one day in a week at best; which one day I bestow in the aforesaid writings: and besides the practice of physic for the poor, which their necessity compels me to, and which taketh up very much time. 5 The weakness of my body is such, that I am able to study but 2 or 3 hours in a day, besides my sick days when I can do nothing. 6 I have sweeter and more pleasing work for my thoughts; I would not steep them in so bitter a subject as this unpleasing controversy, and so lose the rest of the comforts of my life for a world. 7 If you and I should write many tedious volumes, the people would be no more able to discern the truth, than they are from what is already written. 8 I am afraid of giving my people so ill a precedent as to strain at a Gnat and swallow a Camel; to waste their precious time and thoughts and speeches on such a question, while a 100, each of incomparable greater moment, are unstudied and unknown.— Now to your Letter. Whereas you think either writing, or referring you to some printed book, will be the most expedite and sure way, I wonder how you can force yourself to think so! It is many years since you begun yourself to write with Mr. Martial, Mr. Blake, etc. and you have not yet expedited the business: no man yieldeth, nor do you see me any nearer an end then when you begun, except weariness cause any party to give over. 9 Besides, your body is healthfuller; I discern you can better sit at your study 8 hours, than I can one. 10 And I perceive you content yourself more easily than your Reader: you marvel that your Books satisfy not, and I marvel you should think them satisfactory. 11 Many people will think that when they can say (you have answered it) that an argument is overthrown: the vulgar Christians in so great a difficulty being little able to discern the insufficiency or fallacies. 12 And lastly, I am like to live on earth but a while, and therefore as I have more need of other thoughts, so you are like to have the last word, which with most will give you the conquest. But why you should wish me to refer you to a printed argument, I know not, they being all extant in your hands already, and you pretending to answer to the substance of almost all. That you should deny an open verbal dispute, I cannot but much wonder▪ your affairs will sure give you more leisure for 2 or 3 hours dispute, than many months writing, and so I am sure will the state of my body. Truly Sir the disadvantage on my side is so great, and the advantage on yours, that I should not venture on it, but as urged on for the truth's sake, you being Bachelor of Divinity of so long standing, and I having scarcely known an University; you being so long studied and versed in this Controversy, and have all at your finger's ends, and so confident in your Cause, that you make light of all that may be said against you by all the Divines that are—. If I should refuse a conference on such advantages, I should think it were almost to yield my Cause naught. Sir, of my first three offers, if you please to yield, I find the people like best of preaching, which I leave to your choice, and rest An unfeigned lover of the Truth and You, Richard Baxter. To the Reverend Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster, these present. SIR, SOme of my Neighbours conceived it would be their best way to resolve their doubts about baptism, to know what arguments you could bring for Infant-baptism, and against their being baptised, notwithstanding the pretended baptism they had in Infancy. Whereupon with my privity came one to you, upon whose relation of your answer to him, I wrote to you, and upon receipt of your Letter to me I think good to let you understand that I said not I utterly refused open dispute, but that I affected it not, it being fit for schools and not for common Auditories, entered into usually with animosities and eagerness to obtain a supposed victory, managed with heat and multitude of words with Answers and Replies, not so deliberate as were requisite to settle any one's judgement, and usually misapprehended by Auditors, who commonly take him to have the better who speaks most, ending usually in some wrangling or something like it, followed with misreports, accompanied with disorderly throng, confused noise, and many other inconveniencies; in so much that except in case of betraying truth by declining it, I can hardly bring myself to yield to it. And whatever you conceive of my advantages, you may if you will, and perhaps do know that you have such advantage in your ready wit and speech, and the favour and general acclamation to any thing that is said for the superstition of Infant-baptism, as to bring things so about that the event shall be crying down truth, and disgrace of my person. Nor have your disparaging speeches of my Writings without animadversions on them communicated to me, or your carriage at, or not long after the receiving of my Letter, encouraged me to hope for all candour from you in this matter. For preaching, sigh it belongs to you to maintain the divine Institution of Infant-baptism, I shall be willing to examine what you say, when you have said what you think good for Infant baptism, if I may obtain a copy of your Sermon, which you will own, and if it satisfy me I shall confess it; if not, in a Sermon in the same place, or else where, I shall give a distinct and plain answer to it. For writing (which I like best) I desire not to put you to any tedious or voluminous way, but that in the most compendious way of Syllogisms, yea, if it may be in one Medium you put the strength of all that you can say. For short dispatch you may being Disputant or Opponent, assure yourself my answer will be as short as your argument will permit, and the more you contract keeping to the point, the more satisfactory it will be. If you conceive this point of less moment, others conceive otherwise: Though Justification, Redemption, etc. be of greater moment, yet not all you discourse about them. If it were, yet this being of frequent practice needs perhaps resolution before other points that come not into so frequent use. You say in your Aphorisms, pag. 149. the neglect of Sacraments is a breach of the second Commandment. If so, how can a godly man safely live in neglect of Baptism? The enquiry after it is ill judged a straining at a Gnat and swallowing a Camel, as our Saviour meant, Mat. 23 24. In a word, my declining open disputation doth not make me think my Cause naught; but your shunning to give us your arguments in writing, whereby we might better judge of them then upon a verbal conference, makes me imagine your cause is not good, especially considering your use of indirect Arguments to create prejudice, and your not denied prejudice, which how it can suit with an impartial examination of truth I do not see. Other things, in your Letter to me, I let pass, and am Yours as is meet John Tombs. Bewdley, Sept. 10. 1649. SIR, I Received yours, and therewith from five of your neighbours their desires of engaging me in this controversy; you mention many inconveniencies of verbal dispute, most of which I acknowledge probable: but the inconveniencies of writing far greater, as I expressed to you. If it were among the rude Vulgar, much of that you say might fall out: but I have no such desire to be public, but that if you like it better, before a competent number of the intelligent, I am content. If you think that I desire the disgrace of your person, you are less free from sinful censoriousness than I took you to be: My disparaging speeches of your writings being not particularly expressed, I am uncapable of understanding what you mean. I know not that ever I said more against them but that they were in many things to me unsatisfactory, and my reasons I was ready to produce: And I pray you how could I choose but yield to you, and be of your judgement, if I thought your writings sound in the main? so that you seem offended that I do not believe as you, which I cannot yet help, my judgement being not wholly in the power of my will. That you should so expect from me animadversions on your writings, seemeth to me exceeding strange: I have given you my reasons why I am loath by writings to engage in this controversy at all: much more to begin in a way of Animadversions. What my carriage was that offended you, as you express not, so I know not; and therefore your reproof must needs be vain: I asked your messenger, who answered that he saw no miscarriage, except it were my revealing your Letter to three that were present, which he confesseth to be his own fault, who never told me of any desires of secrecy: nor had I reason to think of any, it being about so public a business: and if that do discourage your expectations of candour, your charity is not much stronger than others, whatever your judgement may be. For my part, that no sinister ends should make me differ from you, you may conjecture by these reasons, 1 I am nearer of of your judgement in most other Controversies, that I have spoke with you about, then to most men's I know, and therefore naturally should be more inclined to value yours in this. 2 I have voluntarily been more prodigal of my reputation in putting out that Pamphlet of Justification, which I well know was like to blast my reputation with most Divines, as containing that which they judge a more dangerous error than Antipaedobaptism, and the issue hath answered my expectation: I am now so * This was when my Aphorisms came out first, when many angry men were fierce against them. But I confess since that I have sound as brotherly loving dealing about them as I could desire, and more than I did expect; and that from the most Divines that I have to do with. hissed at by them, that I feel temptation enough to schism in my discontents. 3 I am (as it were) a dying man, and if I should refuse truth to preserve my reputation, I were utterly unexcusable. For the prejudice you mention, I must confess I have some, not against this only, but against every thing I judge to be an error. Nor do I know how any man can debate any point without some prejudice, except where his judgement doth wholly suspend, or hangs in aequilibrio. I perceive you yield not to that way of preaching, as I propounded; nor do you offer me any assurance of a short conclusion in writing: but only that your answer shall be as short as my arguments will permit; as if the Question were already stated betwixt us, and as if there were but one Question to be debated, and I had nothing to object against your way, as well as you against this, and you were resolved in all to do nothing but answer. And why is not the business yet ended between you and your Antagonists, so many years since begun? In a word Sir, no way pleaseth me so well as writing, if you will find out a way of quick dispatch, and give me assurance of it before we begin. Which if you send not in writing, if you please to appoint a time when I can, I will come to you, that we may both agree of the way, and state the Question. Sir, I am an unfeigned lover of Truth, Peace, and You, (for I know it is so meet) Rich. Baxter. Kidderm. Sept. 11. To my Reverend and very much valued Friend and Brother, Mr. Richard Baxter, Preacher at Kidderminster, these present. SIR, TO prevent unnecessary altercations, I return only this to your last Letter. There were some of my Neighbours and Auditors that doubting whether by their Infant-baptism they did the duty of being baptised into the name of Christ, came to me for resolution; and because of your known justifying paedo-baptism, your parts, and integrity, they judged it meet before they were baptised, to know your grounds for Paedo-baptism, lest they should be judged rash; whereupon being informed by me that my exception against Paedo-baptism is, that it is Will-worship for want of divine institution, the only way to satisfy them was to prove a divine institution of Paedo-baptism, which might be best done by a few Syllogisms in writing; which if you please to gratify them in, they will examine it thankfully; if not, they will take it as if it were granted that you can say no more than others have done in print for Paedobaptism, which will be taken to be sufficiently answered till it be showed wherein the answers to them are defective. And this is propounded for the shortest way we can devise to come to resolution. I am very sorry that you are so vexed with men's frowardness upon your writing: it was my folly that in my own case I laid their opposition to me so much to heart: If I may do any thing to assist you for your ease in what we agree, I shall be ready as my time and business will permit. In the mean time leaving you and your ways to the Almighty's guidance, I remain Bewdley, Sept. 24. 1649. Your real Friend and Fellow-servant in the Lord, John Tombs. SIR, I offered you in my last (for the avoidance of the inconveniencies which you feared by a public dispute) to dispatch it before some select company; or else in 2 or 3 Sermons; or (if you would yield to none of this) to write, so be it you would first assure me of a quick dispatch: (because you have not yet ended with those that you have been debating the Cause with these many years,) and also if we might meet and state the question by consent. To which end I offered to come over when you were at leisure, and your Neighbours agreed to send me word when was the fittest time, because you were much from home. But contrary to my expectation, as if all these motions were unreasonable, you still insist upon my doing the work which you cut out for me, and that directly in the way that you prescribe: yea, and you conclude that if I do not this, 1 your people will take it for granted, that I can say no more for Paedobaptism than others have done in print. 2. And that they will take that to be sufficiently answered, till it be showed wherein your answers are defective. And can you possibly think that they have ground sufficient for either of these conclusions. If they are men that will be so easily deceived, and will take things for granted so easily and groundlessly, I think it vain for any man to attempt their information, except by teaching them first how to argue more rationally: prejudice and men's interest in them it seems are their guides. But for you that are a Logician, to encourage them to such conclusions, who should teach them only the truth, and the right way of discovering the truth, seems to me a thing to be admired at. I hope they will not judge of all your teaching by this. For the first conclusion, I gave you such a multitude of reasons, why I could not enter upon the tedious endless task of writing (and you excepted not against any one of those reasons) and I offered you so many other shorter ways, that I leave it to any indifferent man to judge whether you and your people can thence conclude, that I can say no more than is said in print already? 2 And how is it possible that they can judiciously and honestly take it for granted that all that is in print is sufficiently answered? 1 When you have not in print answered, or meddled much with half the books that have been written for Paedobaptism? Besides the many in Latin, Mr. Cobbet and many other in English are unanswered: Yea, Mr. Martial that you profess to deal with chief, is not yet answered in print. And if you have done all this satisfactorily in M. S. whether so many of your people have perused it, and perused it so long, and seriously, as to be able upon comparing them to pass a solid judgement, that Mr. Cobbet, Mr. Drew, Mr. Blake, etc. are all sufficiently answered by you, you best know. Nay, whether the men that were with me are able to try the writings on both sides, so as to pass such a judgement? I seriously profess Sir, I did peruse the sheets which you vouchsafed me the view of, as judiciously as I was able, and they did neither satisfy me, nor stagger me. 2 Nay, your Neighbours did confess to me, 1 That they had never read Mr. Cobbet, and other Books against your judgement. 2 Nor were able to judge by comparing together such tedious writings, whether you had sufficiently confuted them or no. And when I demanded how then they could expect any satisfaction between your writing and mine: they answered that they hoped I would lay down some arguments more briefly. Wherefore Sir it is not only my desire that we should be assured of brevity before we begin: but it was to me the desire of your people, who confess that in such large discourses they are unable to judge. I further propound to you (because you can find out no shorter way) I am sure a shorter way than what you insist on: that is, 1 Either to dispute it in private, before a dozen of each side. 2 Or if there be no other way but writing will be accepted, that you will give me the meeting, and let us write while we are together. Which motions I make not for any advantage against you, but only to avoid the inconveniencies of voluminous writing. Should we write so large, your people will be as unable to make use of it, as they are of what is already written. Sir, I am your unfeigned Friend, and unworthy Fellow-labourer, Rich. Baxter. After this the business slept long, and I had hoped was quite over, till Mr. T. urging it on the Consciences of his Hearers, one of them unhappily asked him in public, Why he would not dispute with me, but so press it on them that could not answer him? Whereupon he told them he would dispute it with me or any man (as they tell me,) which promise the people laid hold on, and prosecuted, & hinc illae achrymae. For Mr. Baxter at Kidderminster, these. SIR, MY Message was this, sigh I intent the next Lord's day to prosecute what I have begun in examining the Hypotheses upon which the Argument from Circumcision for Infant-baptism (which is the Paedobaptists Achilles) is built; I was willing to invite you to be a hearer, and if you judged it meet, to oppose what you should think good in a Logic way without Rhetoric. That your judgement should be against disputing on the Lord's day, seems strange, who (as I have been told) would if invited, come to preach about that Controversy, which I take to be all one with Disputing. That which concerns your Weakness, is sufficient to hinder you I confess, yet me thinks if you might do it on Monday, you might do it almost with the like safety on the Lord's day at Evening. I know not how fit it will be to gather a Congregation to hear us on a week day in public, whereby poor people will be drawn from their work; and the Bailiff being now very sick, I doubt it will be very disorderly. Tuesday being a Holiday as they count it, perhaps there will be more of the ruder sort and disorderly, and it may carry a show of celebrating it. Thursday I intent for Herefordshire, and not to return till Saturday come fortnight. Yet if you choose to come over either Monday or Tuesday, I shall be ready to justify my doctrine openly or privately, by word or writing, as it shall be judged convenient. Bewdley, Decem. 27. 1649. Sir, I am Yours, but much more the Truths, John Tombs. I have no Copy of mine next before this or next after it; nor is it material. But presently upon this was the Dispute; and after it I received from him this Letter following. For Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster, these. SIR, FOrasmuch as you said that if the Papists had as good arguments for their doctrine as those were which you brought on Tuesday last for Infant baptism, you would be a Papist; I earnestly request you to do me so much right or kindness as either to write for me out yourself your arguments which you conceive so strong for Infant-baptism, or procure them written for me at my charges, that I may examine them, and that you will let me know what you will do in answer to this motion, and within what compass of time. Bewdly, Jan. 3. 1649. I am Yours in Christ, John Tombs. SIR, I Perceive you are a man so extremely subject to mistakes, that I have small encouragement to deal with you. I only said (before witness enough) that if the Papists had as plain express Scripture for their Religion, as that Deut. 29. was for proof that all did enter the Covenant there mentioned, I would gladly turn Papist; and you most unworthily feign me to say (if the Papists had as good arguments as those were which I brought for Infant-baptism) in general.) For the thing you desire, 1 you heard what I said. 2 You have not answered my reasons against voluminous disputing: 3 I am persuaded by some to publish our Dispute; but truly I am loath so far to disgrace you. But if I do, you will see my arguments. 4 Seeing you have most unworthily and unbrotherly traduced me four times in public, whereof three in pulpit, I desire you to dispute these four points first. 1 Whether any truth must be suspended for peace (which Mr. Davis saith you bid him tell me was an untruth.) 2 Whether the Magistrate be under Christ the Mediator, (yea as Mediator) which you said was of dangerous consequence (as I hear.) 3 Whether the Covenant be made to any but the elect (for which you brought my book clean contrary to my whole scope.) 4 Whether I dealt unbrotherly and unchristianly in not animadverting on your papers. Sir I never knew sober Minister use such kind of preaching to traduce his brethren, and stuff Sermons with men's names without once speaking or sending to them first about it privately. I have a great desire to dispute the foresaid Points with you if you please in writing ex tempore together, and shall take your yielding thereto as a great favour, and yet your flat duty, having first accused me. Jan. 3. 1649. Sir, I am Your Well-willer, Richard Baxter. For the Reverend Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster, these. SIR, MY mistake of your speech being communicated to yourself, might be as well excused as your misreciting in your papers the same speech in my paper written before you. In your saying that I have most unworthily and unbrotherly, traduced you four times in public, whereof three in Pulpit, is no truth. After so many told me of your by-slings at me, I was willing Mr. Davis should tell you no truth is so to be suspended as to be lost for peace. What I said about your tenet concerning Magistrates in your Aphorism pag. 273. is no traducing you, if it is a truth. And I shall so take it till you have answered Mr. Gillespy Aaron's Rod bloss. Book 2. ch. 7. What I said about your position, was but the reciting of your own words in your Appendix p. 43. It [the Covenant] is made to the Elect only. When it was given out you would come and reverse all I said, I spoke to this effect. If you could say more than others, you dealt not so brotherly with me as I hoped, having desired from you animadversions on some of my papers, and you were earnestly pressed to make known your arguments before I began to preach of the argument, which I thought in charity you would have done to prevent my being misled, and misleading others. Perhaps it was true which was said, that you would hid your weapon till you were to use it. But in this case it was no good rule virtus an dolus? The dust you have raised, I nothing doubt will be wiped away. What spirit you were carried with, appears by the carrying of things, better than by words. My way of preaching, however you judge, befitted a sober man. In handling the question as I was to do, it was meet I should allege men's words and quote the places, their books being in print. It had been scarce the part of a sober man to trouble himself to send privately to every person before I named them. In a word, I acknowledge I have heard many precious truths from you, and received sundry kindnesses for which I thank you. I pray you take it as an office of love from me to tell you, my fears are that you go in a slippery path, if you do as your friends imagine, oppose the present government, and dissenting brethren, likely out of mistaken zeal, and others provocation who will abuse you for their own ends. I am no further willing to word it with you about these personal exceptions, if I may have your arguments from yourself, we shall both be the freer from mistakes, and truth will the sooner appear, which is the endeavour of Bewdley, Jan. 3. 1649. Your Friend and Brother in Christ, John Tombs. This Letter I did not, nor durst not answer, partly because it had in it so many untruths, that I knew the very naming them would tend to dissension: And partly because his secret friendly threatening in the end could not be answered without many inconveniencies: Especially I felt my spirit too prone to have expressed a contempt of his threaten, that I thought it my duty to repress it. It seemed a strange Diversion to me to turn from a dispute of Infant-baptism so suddenly to State matters; And to intimate my opposing the present Government, because my friends imagine it; and so to join together the present Government and Dissenting Brethren, as if they were conjunct; and it were as dangerous to dispute against Anabaptists, as to oppose the Government! and to tell me of my going in a slippery path, as if threatening must be the Argument to take me off when others failed! Perhaps he will say, he meant in regard of danger from God immediately; but I do not think any impartial Reader will so interpret high words, as to the imaginary opposing the present Government. After this, when all was calmed, and I remembered the weakness of his answers, I had strong hopes of winning him by a private Conference: Whereupon I wrote to him this following: But all proved vain. SIR, I Acknowledge it a hard thing to deny self so much as to yield to convincing arguments after so deep engagement for error as yours. And I perceive in public your credit stands in the way. I entreat you therefore to condescend to a secret conference between you and me alone, where we may take freedom of speech. Which motion I therefore make, that if there be any hope, that you may be recovered to that which I am now more confident than ever, is the truth, and to do the Church as much service as you do hurt, that your name may not be found hereafter among the desperate enemies of the truth and peace; how happy were I if I might see you so recovered: Sir I pray deny not this motion (which I thought fit to propound before I reply to your last Letters) and which proceedeth only from a longing desire after your own and the Church's Welfare in Jan. 24. 1649. Yours in unfeigned Christian love, Rich. Baxter. For Mr. Richard Baxter Preacher at Kidderminster, these. Mr. Baxter. IF I may obtain no more from you, yet let me request you to give me under your own hand the Reasons you gave why the Exposition given by me of 1 Cor. 7.14. cannot be right. I remain Yours in the Lord, John Tombs. FINIS.