A CONFERENCE BETWEEN A PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER, And A LAWYER, Concerning all the Material Points that are in difference between the PRESBYTERIAN and the INDEPENDENT, and in what particulars Presbytery is an hindrance to REFORMATION.  
One great hindrance is, The maintaining of Great Parishes.  
LONDON, Printed for T. M. and are to be sold by Giles Calvert at the Black-spred Eagle at the West-end of St PAWLES, An. Dom. 1651.   

TO THE READER.  
Courteous Reader,  
THou hast here (in a plain and familiar Dialogue) discovered the carnal ends, and poor shifts of the temporising pretended Clergy of this Nation, whose pretence is Reformation; but their main design indeed the preservation of their Parishes, and thereby the advancing of their honour, and profit. The most part of the Presbyter's Answers are collected out of certain Sermons, or rather polititicall Lectures and conferences which I have heard with mine own ears, and the rest is made good out of their practices. It is not to be conceived, that all the Ministers of all the Parish-Congregations in England and Wales, are guilty of all the superstitious and Popish practices, and other crimes and offences herein mentioned; for I do acknowledge many to be pious and conscientious men, who have not submitted to the Bishop's yoke, nor received the mark of the Beast: But the generality of the Ministry being led by some few in every County (whose Oracles are at Sion-Colledge) are so settled on the lees of their old Conformities and subscriptions, and in the courses which they learned from their Predecessors that they will not easily be removed. Nor have I much hope, that any of the Ringleaders of this Faction, will hereby be brought to acknowledge their error, much less to lay aside their gainful callings, which make them Lords over their whole Parishes, but rather expect, that some galled proud Parsons, Vicars, or Curates, or other inferior Priests or Deacons (as they called them) will rail against me as one not fit to be answered; and, lest others should hear or understand, will fill the Air and Ears of all the multitude with senseless noise and outcries in vindication of their great Diana. Yet I doubt not but the wise in heart will understand, and some of the most ingenuous amongst the Formalists will at the least take a view of their present condition, and be put upon some serious consideration of their bypast courses, and remember that without Repentance, those that receiv the mark of the Beast, shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God and be tormented with Fire and Brimstone. Apoc. 14.9.10.11.  
But that I chief intent, is to lay open to the plain and weaker sort of Christians the subtleties, falsehoods and vain delusions of our pretending Church-reformers; upon consideration of all which almost the weakest judgements may see sufficient to satisfy them, that we can never expect any Through— Reformation whilst the Parliament consults these men who are so many ways engaged against Reformation by their own Interests of Honour and Profit, the two main Hinges of all their Designs.  
I conceiv many will be ready to say, I trouble myself too much to rake into the Dunghill of Popish and superstitious Ceremonies being dead and buried, but therein I desire to be excused, being enforced thereunto by such as I heard defend them in the Pulpit and in private, since they were Damned by Ordinance of Parliament. The defence of which (and of others their Popish Trinkets) is brought in to take away the scandal of their Popish callings from the Bishops, and to justify their former conformities, lest their Parishioners offended should seek out other Pastors, or (as they call it) Run to separation or Independency.  
I have one thing to add by way of request to the Reader, which is this, that where he findeth any Satirical jests or sarkasme's, savouring of too much levity or bitterness, he would consider whether the matter occasioning the same from the Presbyter be not more ridiculous, (and yet it's such as I have heard divulged by one or more of the most learned of that faction in the Country where I live) which may in some sort excuse my expressions. What I have herein set forth repugnant to the Truth, upon conviction, I shall, I hope, gladly retract. So wishing this little Treatise may be profitable to some, and hurtful to none, Reader! I bid thee farewell.  
Abraham Boon.   

The AUTHOR'S Protestation.  
I Do hereby declare and protest in the presence of Almighty God, that I do not put forth this Tract with any intent to vilify or bring into contempt the preaching of the blessed Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ after the manner of such, who say they live above all Ordinances; for I acknowledge the preaching of the Gospel to be the ordinary means of salvation and that without preaching, ordinarily none can be saved. Rom. 10. But I desire to discover those bvilders who refuse or set at nought the Lord Christ and his Ordinances, to uphold their own honour and profit.  
A. B.   

The Pride and Avarice, OF THE CLERGY: viz. 

Parsons,  
Vicars,  
and  
Curates,   hindering REFORMATION.  
Discovered in a plain and familiar Dialogue between Philalethes and Presbyter.  
SIR, you are well met here at London, I am glad to see you, what is the reason you look so sad?  Pr. 
Sir! I thank you, I am in health, but perplexed in mind.  Ph. 
What is the news in your Country from whence you come: or what is it that trouble's you?  Pr. 
There is no news but new distractions both in Church, and Commonwealth, arising by reason of old Errors and Heresies countenanced everie where.  Ph. 
What Errors and Heresies do you mean?  Pr. 
They are so many I cannot easily count all, that the Sectaries and Schifmaticks of this age have broached.  Ph. 
Do you conceive that these are the occasion of the distempers in the Commonwealth as well as in the Churches?  Pr. 
Yea without all doubt, for the unsetledness of the Church (occasioned by Sectaries) causseth the distemper of the Commonwealth, both sympathising in each others misery.  Ph. 
What do you think might cure these distempers?  Pr. 
There is no other way of cure but by settling Church-Government with the Classes and Synods.  Ph. 
How will that cure all things?  Pr. 
1. Hereby Errors and Heresies will be discountenanced, and the Sectaries the broachers of them restrained and punished.  
2. None will be admitted to the Ministry but such as were brought up at the University, or licenced by the Assembly.  
3. Private men will be enforced to continue in their callings, and not meddle with the Ministers Office in expounding the Scriptures.  
4. Every man will be forced to pay his Tithe and deuce to his Ministers that thereby they may be honourably maintained.  
5. Lastly every one will be ordered to keep their own Parish, and not follow Sectaries and seducing teachers. If these, and such like, were looked to and observed, the Church and Commonwealth would soon be quiet. and the want of these things is the occasion of all the miseries which we lie under, as well the late Wars as all the sad effects thereof.  Ph. 
Indeed War is an heavy judgement, and I think I may truly say that the rigid Presbyterians, to advance those things you have mentioned, and other worldly respects and carnal ends, have been the occasions thereof.  Pr. 
How can that be?  Ph. 
By their preaching and prayings they have every where disgraced the Parliament, stirred up the people against the Army, encouraged Neuters and Malignants, and put the English and Scot's Malignants in hope to find a party strong enough in England to destroy both Parliament and Army.  Pr. 
I confess we have justly complained against the Parliament and Army, because the one did not settle the Presbyterian-government, and the other countenanced all Sectaries and Heretics, but we did it not to the end to destroy the Parliament.  Ph. 
What ever your intents were, I am sure your practice was abominable, you filled all places with your clamours and out-cries against the Parliament and Army, as the Scotch Ministers likewise did, until you and they had conjured up more evil spirits than you could allay. And I am confident, had it not been for the men of your faction, who prepared the people for a new War by the courses aforesaid, neither our conquered enemies at home, nor the Scots durst have attempted any more to make head against us.  Pr. 
What prejudice can the Parliament or Army receiv by the Ministers? It's well known we prayed for them both. And what can you object against our Prayers or Preaching?  Ph. 
I could fill a volume with your reproaches and evil surmises, scandals disgraces, calumnies, and other unsavoury matter by you cast upon the Parliament and Army in your Sermons (for a taste whereof view the book called the Pulpit-Incendiarie) and let any man judge whether this did not much alienate the people's hearts from the Parliament and Army. And for your prayers for them they were for the most part like your Sermons: and still in your Sermons and prayers you speak of the Army as enemies.  Pr. 
Well, it was time for the Ministers to speak and pray and deal plainly with the people, when all things were grown into such confusion and disorder as they were, far worse than under the Episcopal Government.  Ph. 
I do confess, there were disorders, but the Churches are not in so bad a condition as under the Prelacy: for that Hierarchy was Antichristian.  Pr. 
I deny that, it may be some things enjoined by the Prelates were Antichristian; but not they as they stood in the Church of England: for Antichrist, wheresoever he is described in Scripture, is described by his falls doctrine: and many of our Bishops were Orthodox men, free from Popish Errors and Heresies.  Ph. 
I'll grant you, they might hold fundamental truths, and yet their calling be Antichristian, for who knows not that Antichrist is described as well by his power, pride, cruelty, blasphemy, hypocrisy, and idolatry as by falls Doctrine. Rev. 17.1, 2, 3, 4, 5. & 18.3. & 13.2, 6, 11.  Ph. 
Well, notwithstanding what you say, if Episcopacy had been lopped, the abuses taken away, those which were naught removed, and good men put in their rooms, we had never seen these disorders and confusions: for that government, although but prudential (as some would have it) was an excellent means for staying the growth of errors and heresies in the Church.  Ph. 
Indeed that was the pretence at first, but the cure was worse than the disease; for it proved a heavy scourge to the Church of God, and out of that egg grew the Serpent, that Antichrist the head of Prelacy: and I conceive that Government could never have been profitable to the Churches of Christ.  Pr. 
I will say no more of that Hierarchy, seeing the same is abolished, and the State hath thought fit to take it away: but why is not the Church settled?  Ph. 
What do you mean by a Church in Gospel's sense?  Pr. 
The word CHURCH (besides the general acceptation of it signifying all the Elect) hath a double signification. 1. It's taken for a particular Congregation, so many as may or do meet together to partake in divine Ordinances, or as we call it a Parish, and so the word Church is strictly taken. 2. But the word Church in a larger sens, comprehends not only such a company, but also the Christians in a whole country, as Ephesus and Achaia, and so many Thousands who could not possibly meet together in one place: yet they are called a Church. Act. 2.41. & 21.20.  Ph. 
Time will not permit me to enter into that controversy, but for mine own part I am satisfied that the Churches under the Gospel are not Ecumenical, National, Provincial, or Diocesan, but 
* Cotton upon the 16 of Mat. ver. 19 Way of Congregat. Chur. Pa. 2. pa. 5 Par. 1. pa. 20. where Parker, Ames, & Bane; are cited.  Congregational, which Congregational Churches ought to consist of so many Christians as may join in Christian fellowship and communion under one Pastor, who ought to convers with them, and know their state and condition, and apply his Ministry answerably unto them: but for your greater Church and Parish Church I acknowledge none such.  Pr. 
However you think, yet it is plain in that place of Act. 2.41. & 21.20. where the Christians were many Thousands (Myriads) they are called the Church, etc. Ergô &c.  Ph. 
It's evident the word Church applied to so many Thousands as you speak of, is not to be taken properly, but tropically, and so by a Synecdoche it may be taken for many Churches: or else for part of the Catholic Church, which manner of speaking is usual in 
a Amesius Medul. cap. 32. § 3, 4, 5, 6, 15.18. Cap. 39 § 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26.  Scripture. But I marvel why you should endeavour to prove that a Church in Gospel sense should contain more Christians then can convene in one place, to partake in Divine Ordinances.  Pr. 
I do it to let you know that men of greater parts and learning may have more dignity and superintendency, and also a greater reward and encouragement.  Ph. 
So plead the Papists and the politicians amongst the superstitious Protestants (of this last age,) for the Prelacy and Hierarchy who affirm that the Angels of the seven Churches of Asia, and Timothy and Titus, (who were Evangelists) were Diocesan Bishops. And the same argument likewise serves for maintenance of the Bishop of Rome his preeminency above all other Bishops, which, I think you will not defend.  Pr. 
I will not dispute the right of Episcopal government, seeing with us it's abolished, but you must admit a difference and degrees amongst Ministers and Churches, or greater inconveniences will follow: for the Parishes which are the particular Congregations are not all of a bigness nor equal, and I think they are well divided, conducing much to my purpose.  Ph. 
The Pope and his agents dealt not so equally in that point as they might have done. It's true, that devotion in such as founded Churches, and such as gave Tithes to them, did it in such sort as they saw good or convenient for their posterity: but the great Lateran Council at Rome, Anno 1215. held under Pope Innocent the third, (the most abominable conspiracy that ever was against Christ's Gospel, except the Council of Trident) took away the liberty which men before time had viz. to give their tithes to whom they pleased, and tied them up to pay them to their own Parish Priest, which absolutely enthralled the people, and causeth that the worst deserving have had commonly the most means, and this perfected the division of the Parishes, as now they are. Look Repor. L. 2. p. 44. Parson's Laws, pa. 66.  Pr. 
I confess the Parishes are not equal, but the greatest is little enough, and as it's well for the Church that they are divided, and their bounds known, that every Parson, or Vicar may know his own sheep, and the bounds of his Parish.  Ph. 
You reason carnally, and aim at earthly respects.  Pr. 
What can you allege against the Parishes?  Ph. 
I must tell you they are Popish in their very institution and original: and some Parishes, especially about London, and in other Cities and places are so populous, (containing twenty thousand people, or more) and of so huge extents, that no Minister of the Gospel can converse with the people of the whole Parish, as a man of God ought to do: nor discharge his duty to them all with a good conscience.  Pr. 
You would open a wide gap to our brethren, or rather adversaries (for they are both) the Brownists and Independents, who long to see our Parishes broken in pieces.  Ph. 
I will not so far enter into that Controversy, as to maintain all things held by all men called by those names: but this I say, I dare pawn my life there can be no Reformation whilst the Parishes and Ministry stand as they do, let the Government be Presbyterial or Independent.  Ph. 
Why say you so?  Ph. 
First, for the Parishes I told you before, some of them are so vast in greatness, and populous that they need ten Ministers where there is but one.  Pr. 
I grant it, that if more means could be found out to maintain them, it were well there were more Ministers: but you must not take the Tithes from the Parson, Vicar, or Minister, to whom They are due Jure divino, and give them to others. The Minister ought to have all the tithes of his Parish, as well by the Law of God as man, and the contrary by consequence is Sacrilege.  Ph. 
You cannot yet make me believe (though I have heard and seen it much pleaded for) that Tithes are due to the Ministers of the Gospel jure divino.  Pr. 
I doubt not but you may very well have heard them pleaded for as Jure divino, for the stream and current of Antiquity runs clearly that way.  Ph. 
I confess the Papists generally hold it; some of the Fathers, and some of the more covetous and superstitious Protestants: and yet [Car. Bellar. Cont. l. 1. de Cler. pa. 316, 317, 318.] Cardinal Bellarmine and Suarez the Jesuit, the great Patrons of this opinion have not agreed with the rest: nor between themselves what part of the Tithes the Priest or Minister ought to have: nor whether he himself should have all which the Priests and Levits had. I would know of you why Tithes should be due jure divino under the Gospel, more than all other offerings and profits which the Priests had under the Law: The Tithes than were not only for the Priests, but for the Levits, the poor and the stranger, who were more than the twelfth part of the people: our Ministers not the hundreth part. They did bodily service about the sacrificing, and had garments for that purpose, which (the formulists say, the Surplices resembled, and which are condemned as superstitious and Jewish: or rather since taken from the Pagans. The Priests and Levits might buy no land in Canaan, but be content with the portions and Cities which God gave them. These Jewish Ordinances are abolished, and the Priesthood is changed. Our Ministers are content to leave the kill of beasts and doing of such service, & hold it not unlawful to buy Land when they can get Money. But they will have all their Tithes jure divine: whereas the Christians in Africa and many in other places paid no Tithes till after Augustins' time. Bellarmine, Contro. li. 8. de Cler. pa. 315. Pope Innocent the third brought in payment of privy Tithes (about anno 1215.) Fox Act. & Mon, val. 1. pa. 336. Col. 1. And in the disputation at prague upon the Articles of John Wicliffe, Art. 17. it's concluded that Tithes are mere alms: and Augustine and Chrysostom are cited to the same purpose upon Luc. 11.  Pr. 
We do not take the Tithes as by any judicial or Ceremonial Law, for they were paid by Abraham to Melchizedech before the Law, and by Christ himself, and there is nothing in the new Testament for abolishing of them.  Ph. 
I have no intent to enter into that controversy, further than to let you know, that were it not for the upholding of the pomp and pride of the pretended Clergy, this could be no controversy at all. For that which you say concerning Melchizedech and Abraham his paying Tithes to him before the Law, I conceive the Law was the same in substance in tradition before it was written; and without doubt Adam taught his sons to sacrifice, and instructed them in the things appertaining to the Worship and service of God. Abraham gave the tenth of the spoil of his enemies, and that freely; what is that to the payment of the Tithes of the fruit of the Land and increase of the beasts, etc. especially you being no Priests after the order of Melchizedech. And touching Christ his paying of Tithes (which indeed I have heard insisted upon) if it be taken in a proper or Grammatical sense is a mere fable, for Christ had nothing of which he could pay Tithes, not so much as a smoke-penny or a garden-penny. And I do not find he wrought any miracle to provide aught to pay Tithes as he did to pay Tribute.  Pr. 
But I pray you what inconvenience would follow if Tithes should continue to be paid as formerly under that notion as due jure Divino.  Ph. 
I could tell you of many evils which must of necessity follow such payment of Tithes, of which I will give you a taste and omit the rest: 1. It's a retaining of part of that Law which is abolished by Christ, Heb. 7.11, 12. If the Priesthood be changed, then there is a change of the Law. 2. It upholdeth a main point of Popery, which is, that upon the same ground the Ministers take the Tithes, the Pope as high Priest over the Clergy is to have the first fruits and tenths, and his Prelates their Procurations and Synodals. To salve up which, our State, not by colour of Divine Law but by humane law, gave these tenths and first fruits to the King. 3. Hereby is condemned the practice of all other reformed Churches, as living in a Nationall sin, where the Ministers are not thus maintained by Tithes, which is a very uncharitable censure. 4. If Tithes be due jure divino, then must the division of the Parishes be jure divino, else why may not the Tithes be divided to many Ministers, as I formerly told you, and that some of you hold as bad as living upon stipends.  Pr. 
I will not reason with you further whether Tithes be due jure divino, you and I differ in our opinions. Suppose we should take them as the allowance of the State by humane Law, they are little enough to maintain the Ministers, who ought to have double honour, the honour of reverence and the honour of maintenance, and we do exact of you as due to us by the Apostles rule, honourable maintenance, and not to live upon Alms, or as the Ministers of Germany upon mean stipends.  Ph. 
I confess that the Ministers of the Gospel ought to live of the Gospel, and to be honestly provided for, that they need not through want or necessity be encumbered with worldly business, but attend their Ministry without distraction: but to exact honourable maintenance savours too much of ambition and avarice unbeseeming the servants of Christ. I conceive the faithful Ministers are worthy of double honour, as Antichrist is worthy of double punishment, not so much in kind and number as in weight and measure. And if that will not content you, I affirm you are unlike to the Apostles of our Lord, and the Ministers of the primitive times, and savour of the leaven of Popery: as the Ministers did in the end of the third and in the fourth Centuries after Christ, who strove for honour and dignity until Antichrist came to his height. And upon what I now hear from you, comparing it with the practice of these times, I do conclude that it is not the perverseness and peevishness of the people, so much as the pride and avarice of the pretended Clergy, which hindereth the Reformation; and that I shall make appear unto you.  Pr. 
What can you say against the present Clergy of the Land, as they are established by the known Law; they are generally all desirous to further the intended reformation.  Ph. 
I dislike the name Clergy in your sense, for if you mean God's lot or portion, then are all God's people properly so called. But (whatever the present pretended Clergy intent, I know not) its plain that their pride and avarice is the cause of all the evils in the Land, as well Heresies and Schisms in the Church, as troubles and distractions in the Commonwealth.  Pr. 
It may be giddy heads take occasion of offence (when none is given) to run out of our Church, and to move sedition in the Commonwealth: but that is not the fault of the Clergy, but of themselves, who are causelessly offended; and I believe the Clergy are much troubled at it, that reformation goeth not forward, and that there is no better order in Church or State.  Ph. 
I conceive the Clergy which you mean may be divided into four ranks.  
1. First such as were professed for Antichrist so far as to bring in all his Ceremonies, Crosses, cringinge, Altar-worship, and other bodily exercises and superstitions devised by the man of sin to captive souls, and were fully bend to join us to the Church of Rome, and might probably have prevailed, but that the Pope's Supremacy was conceived dangerous, and might have been a curb both to the Clergy and superstitious Statists, who yet liked Popery well enough, but feared the Pope's Supremacy as it's feared in France. And I doubt not but many of these men through Gods just judgement were so blinded, as to think they did God good service in their superstitious ways, and by the prosecutions raised thereupon.  
2. The second sort are those dumb dogs and Idol Shepherds who either could not, or would not preach at all, nor give any alarm when the wolf cometh, and these were all ruled by the former as their Oracles and Leaders.  
3. The third sort are they who pretend more conscience, and are more strict in their lives, and more orthodox in their opinions then many others, and were so far enlightened as to condemn the two former sorts (the one as too superstitious, the other as ignorant) and well know and acknowledge the Ceremonies and other injunctions of Antichrist to be naught, and yet subscribed to all, and used many, but upon other grounds than the former sorts, viz. That they might get into, and keep their Live, and be capable of preferment; and these corruptions of the times they yielded to (as they pretended) for necessity sake rather than to leave their Ministry.  
4. The fourth sort are those few faithful men who stood out and (as much as in them lay) opposed the superstitions and corruptions of the times, and left their Ministry rather than offend God, having learned that rule of the Apostle, not to do evil that good may come thereof; and knowing that God hath no need of men's sins to accomplish his works.  
The two first sorts of these Churchmen (as they call them) are cashiered; the fourth sort so discountenanced, that they either lurk in obscure places, or are gone beyond the seas; for parish Churches they meddle with none, under the notion of visible Churches. The third sort are the men for these times, who have so great influence upon all sorts of men, that if the Parliament and Army, and all other men dance not after their pipe, they are Heretics, Schismatics, Sectaries, disturbers of the peace, and hinderers of Reformation.  Pr. 
I do confess that in our Church there have been Ministers of all those sorts which you have described: but the third sort whom you seem to blame are they who suffered under the corruptions of the times, and yet fulfilled their Ministry, and subscribed for necessity sake, rather than the Church of God should be deprived of their labours. These now are, and then were, constrained to bear the burden and heat of the day; and of this sort (for the most part) are all the chief actors in the intended Reformation, and we find many of them have given a worthy Testimovy to the truth of Jesus Christ, and against the Heresies of the times.  Ph. 
I knew no necessity there was for them to keep their live upon those terms. And for the Testimony which these men have given, if you mean in writing, I think their Testimony is partly true and partly false. But very few of these men ever gave testimony to the truth, so far as to suffer much for Christ, not so much as to hazard their Live. It's an easy matter to testify against Blasphemies against God and the Persons in the Trinity, and against those errors, which being repugnant to divers Articles of the Creed, are declaimed against both by the Papists and lose Protestants. But I never heard any of these men declaim against the corruptions of the times, nor confess their own errors in Symbolising with Antichrist, and receiving of the mark of the Beast, to the scandal of the Gospel, and prejudice of the Church of God.  Pr. 
Alas you know not what the mark of the Beast is; I can tell you what it is, but I desire to know what you mean by it.  Ph. 
I shall declare that to you, not as any conjecture of mine own, but from the learned, and some such as you cannot well refuse their testimony. Learned Naper a Baron of Scotla. expounding 13. Rev. 16. saith that the Cross is the mark of the Beast; and amongst divers reasons he gives for such his opinion, this is one, viz. Because all men are enticed under the colour of the Name of Christ to reverence that Character. Bellarmine, who knew the use of the Cross in the Church of Rome, saith it is Gods mark mentioned Ezek. 9.4. Bellar, not. in lit, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Gram. Ebr. & cont. de effect. Sacram. lib. 2. pag. 221. & de Sacram confir. li. 2, cap. 13. pag. 371. And he makes it the chiefest mark of the Church of Rome, because nothing can be consecrated without it. A mark is that by which any thing is known. Brightman in Apoc. 13.16. another learned man, saith, That the mark of the Beast contains summarily all those ways by which men are bounden to the obedience of Antichrist.  
Reverend Paraeus in Apoc. 13.16. agrees with profound Doctor Robert Abbot, whose exposition upon the place above named he commendeth, and reciteth it thus: To the common Character (or mark) appertain those things which are practised by all Antichristians, as the observation of Fasts and holy days instituted by the Pope, the worshipping of their breaden God, and doing other things not commanded of God. And Paraeus upon the next words saith, No man may buy, receive, or sell the holy wares of Masses, Indulgencies, Absolutions, Dispensations, Tithes, etc. but these Spiritual Hucksters, marked with this perpetual character, to wit, Bishops, Priests, Monks, and the like Merchants of souls, citing that place, 2 Pet. 2.7. Through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. And that of Paul, 2 Tim. 6.5. They suppose godliness is a gain (or merchandise). What think you now is the mark of the Beast?  Pr. 
These things may be the mark of the Beast, but what do they concern us?  Ph. 
They do most of them belong to you the pretended Clergy of England, I mean to the Formalists of this age, who have held their Live, and subscribed for pretended necessity sake.  Pr. 
Show me how that can be, the things mentioned before agree to the Popish Priests.  Ph. 
So do they (for the most part) agree to you and your fellows, little differing in these things from the Papists; and our pretended Clergy have received them from the Church of Rome, and have practised the same etc. Viz.  
1. First they have subscribed to, and used the sign of the Cross, the chief of all Popish Ceremonies.  
2. Secondly, they have observed Popish Fasts and holy days, and many other superstitions in the worship of God, without warrant of the Word.  
3. Thirdly, they have subscribed and conformed to the Book of Common-prayer, which makes their holy days equal to the Lords day. See the beginning of that Book.  
4. Fourthly in their subscription they made themselves the Prelates, and so the Pope's vassals and servants, and took their licenses to preach from them.  
5. Fifthly they have dealt in those Wares and Merchandizes, Dispensations for nonresidence, Absolutions, Tithes, and the bodies and souls of men, the proper merchandise of Rome.  
6. Sixthly they have received the names of such spiritual Merchants as are of the devising of Antichrist, as Priests, Parsons, Vicars, Curates, although they refuse the names of Monks, savouring of too much austerity of life, yet more ancient and inoffensive.  
7. Seventhly and lastly, their kneeling in the act of receiving is little better than bread-worship, or God under the form of bread.  Pr. 
You strain things very far; I shall not trouble myself to answer your conjectures; only the last thing by you mentioned is very offensive to me, for I hold kneeling in the act of receiving, to be the most reverend gesture, and practised it upon that ground, the rather because enjoined by the Church.  Ph. 
I intent not a large discourse about abolished Ceremonies, but advise you so far to view them as they concern the matter we spoke of, which is the mark of the beast, of which this is a part.  
1. For first kneeling was enjoined in reverence to the Sacrament, as appears by King Edward's second book of Common-prayer.  
2. Secondly it was never used or known till after the Lateran Council anno 1215. where the carnal presence of Christ was decreed. The next Pope Honorius the third, within seven years after decreed kneeling in the act of receiving, in regard of that (supposed) carnal presence of Christ. [Fox Act & more. Dial. between Custom and verity, Book 2. pag. 780. Col. 1.]  
3. Thirdly upon that ground of the carnal presence, Bellarmine urgeth kneeling, affirming it were dangerous to kneel, or worship: (for its all one) if Christ were not corporally present. Bellar. contr l. 3. de euch. cap. 21. pa. 633. A. & cap. pa. 634.  Pr. 
Well, notwithstanding what you say, I conceive the admitting and submitting to the authority and supremacy of the Bishop of Rome to be the mark of the Beast.  Ph. 
If that be so, and nothing else be the mark of the beast, then have not many of the Popish Congregations of France received the mark of the beast: for they allow not of the Pope's Supremacy. Nor more did the very City of Rome submit until about 230. years since. Cal. Just. li. ca 11. Ser. 14.  Pr. 
I have nothing to say to the Congregations of France, but these men whom you thus mark with the mark of the Beast, are the chief actors in the intended reformation.  Ph. 
If these Formalists be the men, who must reform, and teach the way to the people, I shall never look for reformation: I told you they have received the mark of the Beast, as his vassals and slaves, and have acted for Antichrist: not only doing wickedly themselves, in subscribing to, and using popish Ceremonies, superstitious, and humane inventions in the worship of God, having no foundation from the word of God, which is the rule of his worship: but also many of them have persuaded others therein to transgress, and by their examples have caused many to fall with them into the breach of the second Commandment.  
For these sins they have manifested no repentance, nor given any satisfaction to the Congregations to this day: for which cause God will never honour them so far, as to make them instruments to reform the Churches. My opinion therein is grounded upon that Text of holy Scripture, Mat. 5.19. Whosoever shall break one of the least commandments, and teach men so shall be least in the Kingdom of heaven, which I take to be meant of the Church of God, under the Gospel. And it is to be therefore feared, that reformation will be deferred until the carcases of the chief of these men are fallen in the Wilderness, that they may never see the promised land.  Pr. 
You censure the faithful Ministers of the Church very uncharitably, why should you suspect their faithfulness in reforming God's house: seeing they are painful in their callings, and faithful in that which is committed to them.  Ph. 
I honour the faithful Ministers of the Gospel, and I beseech the Lord to increase their number. But besides, what I have formerly said, I will remember you of what passed in these last years; and by that you may judge of their faithfulness, whom you so much commend. It's manifest in what condition the Parliament found this whole Nation at their first meeting: even posting in all haste to Rome, longing after the Garlic and Onions of Egypt: and they had Captains made to lead them thither; the whole Rabble of Prelates as their Captains and chiefs. And the inferior Clergy, Parsons, Vicars, Curates, Priests, etc. with the rest of their Apocryphal, Ecclesiastical Orders, as their Lieutenants, and inferior Officers: And these faithful men you speak of (serving the time) made no head against the rest: but patiently bear what their Lords put upon them, and so marched with the throng towards Egypt.  Pr. 
I cannot say, but that the Church of England (although the most famous Church in the World) furnished with a most learned, and orthodox Clergy, had many in it who were very corrupt and superstitious. But these are removed and orthodox, godly and learned Divines of whom we formerly spoke, put in their rooms and places.  Ph. 
You glory like the Angel of the Church of Laodicea, in your gifts and graces, and know not your want and poverty, Rev. 3.17. It's partly true, that in some places the ignorant, scandalous, and others, who would not take the Covenant have been removed, and some of these orthodox men put in their rooms, and that is, and will be the bane of these Churches and Churchmen. Take but a view of their practices, and let that speak, how well they have carried themselves within five years past, since they got their preferments; I could instance in many places, where superstitious and blind bussards were put out of their Live, and some of these Orthodox men put in their rooms: and when they had got good Live, were they, or are they contented? Some hold live in the Country, and live in London, hardly ever coming to the flock, but to take the fleece: Some hold two or three Live a piece; some leave one and run to another, when they can find a greater; nay, they will fight for a better Living rather than lose it. And yet falsely bewitch the  people to believe, that its the call of God so to do, when it's nothing else but the delusion of Satan, and of their own wicked hearts to satisfy their ambition and avarice. See but how these men press the Committee for plundered Ministers for augmentations, and removals from day to day, and how they engage Parliament men to act for them, calling themselves in their Certificats, and Petitions, godly, learned, and orthodox Divines. And it is observed in the Country, that many of those who are thus put in, prove more proud, covetous, and contentious than those which were put out. And I doubt not, but when these men's bellies are full, and they at ease, they will agree to make a golden Calf, and rise up to play as their Predecessors did. And I do believe that those who serve their cures as they (call them) by a Deputy, will without repentance go to heaven by a Deputy.  Pr. 
Although I will not excuse all the Clergy of the land, who have two Live, nor their removal from place to place, where they had sufficient maintenance before: nor the pride, contention, or avarice of some of them: yet I know many of the Clergy, of whom I know there is no cause, to fear their revolting or falling into popish errors, or superstitions, or other ill courses, they being known to be religious and godly men. It is true, some are constrained to take two live, for that one will not maintain them, and others for a time to hold two Live, because they are not sure of the better holding it, but during the Sequestration.  Ph. 
Sir, I doubt you have been a little tacked with that Epidemical disease of a pluralist, and guilty of removing from place to place. But I must tell you your excuse will not bear you out at God's Tribunal. The very Popish Doctors and Cannon Law condemn plurality of Benefices in a Presbyter: men do not use to put away their wives, nor take another to her, which formerly he had upon such pretences. The truth is, the preaching of the gospel is merely made a trade to get money; they preach for hire, run before they be called, come in at the window like a thief, and preach according to their pay: provided they may have sufficient to keep contempt from the Clergy; be as powerful as the Popish Doctors, and able through their abundance to contend with their whole Parish, and swagger in their silks as their Predecessors did, they will be content,: otherwise they will tell you, you rob God in not paying their Tithes, and do not allow them honourable maintenance.  Pr. 
These things which you charge the Ministers with, are inconsistent with honesty and religion; and I told you many of the Clergy, who intent the reformation (according to the foundation, laid by the Parliament, by advice of the Reverend Assembly of Divines) are godly Orthodox and learned men, whom in charity you are bound to belive, can never fall into damnable errors, heresies, or abominable practices.  Ph. 
Touching their final estate, I will not judge, but leave that to Almighty God: yet this I dare say, none of these men are better than Peter, who once acted the Devil's part: nor better than Aaron, who upon like pretence, as these men have, viz. necessity or convenience joined to make the golden Calf: nor are they better than their predecessors, whose mouths were stopped, and their judgements blinded with honourable maintenance and preferment. Consider but this; Cranmer and Ridley (although godly Bishops and Martyrs) were two of those, who opposed King Edward the fixed, and his Council in the case of Mr. Hooper, when he would have omitted popish Ceremonies at his entrance into his Bishopric. Act. Mon. vo. pa. 146. Also call to mind Jewel, Babbington, chapel, Mr. Hutton, Davenant, Morton, Whitgift, Ro: Abbot, Pilkington, and Hall, who all deserved well of the Church of God, (and better then most of these Orthodox men, whom you so much admire) whilst they continued in their uprightness, before they were loaden with honour, and honourable maintenance. But see how they carried themselves afterwards, some of them turned notable persecutors, others grew idle, some erroneous, if not heretical in their judgements: And attained with their Lordships, hierarchical superstitions. I could name others of inferior rank, of great note for learning, piety, and soundness of judgement, even in points controversal, who upon conformity (after long standing out) accepted great live, and presently became the very Atlas' of popish Ceremonies. Upon all which I conclude, that these pretended reformers, having heretofore tasted of the Devil's broth in their conformity and subscription, and having not yet repent of it, will shortly fall to eat the flesh, and swallow up any thing which makes not against their honour, or profit.  Pr. 
You cast very foul aspersions upon our reverend Clergy, and have drawn me into a discourse, which I never intended, I intimated to you before, that it's the people's fault that they do not join with their Ministers, to settle the Church, and reform the abuses in the same. It's an easier matter to find a fault then to amend it: for my part, I think the perverseness, and peevishness of the people is the cause which hindereth Reformation, for that they will abide no government, but every one will be of his own Religion without control.  Ph. 
I cannot excuse all the people, nor think I all faulty, who are afraid of having their Religion measured out unto them by the Presbytery: especially by the rigid sort, who account all error and heresy, which suits not with their conceptions, and all men schismatics, and Sectaries, whose consciences are not just of their size; and yet I am persuaded that reformation goeth not forward, is chief the fault of the pretended Clergy.  Pr. 
How can that be? or how doth it appear?  Pr. 
Because most of the pretended Ministers must be cashiered, before there can be any reformation: for either the Ministers are dumb, blind guides: or else so profane, irreligious, or superstitious, that if they be reformers, their Elders in all probabilities will be of the same stamp to join with them: And then I leave it to you to judge, what reformation here's like to be, when Satan must cast out Satan.  Pr. 
This is the condition, but of few places, many being better furnished, both with Ministers and people.  Ph. 
The most of the best sort of Ministers stand so much upon their own interests: and besides are in so great slavery to their Patrons, that we see they strain their wits, to advance their own honour and profit, and to please men; lest either their Live should suffer any diminution: or some one find a hole in their coat, some Simony, lapse, or other flaw in their Title, whereby to put them out of their Living, which before they will lose, the most will adventure their souls. And upon these grounds it is, that every one living within the compass of their Parish, or their perambulation walk must be acknowledged one of their flock, and coming to Church, he is (without doubt) a member of the visible Church, how ignorant or wicked soever; or else how can they demand any Tithes or offerings from them. And for the same reason the Ministers labour to preserve their Parishes entire, and not to leave out any part thereof, lest they lose the Tithe and benefit which comes by it. And hence is it that they maintain every Parish to be a visible Church, although there be neither lawful Minister, nor any Congregation of faithful people there, who have given any testimony, that they are members of Christ, or of the household of faith.  Pr. 
These things may easily be amended: and I presume when the Church is settled, and the Presbyterian government, with the Classes and Synods confirmed, these things which are amiss may be altered, or changed; they are but petty blemishes, and the Ministers will therein satisfy the weak, and such as are offended: But it's well you have no greater matters to charge them with.  Ph. 
I could acquaint you with other abominable things, maintained by your Ministers on purpose to satisfy their lusts of pride and covetousness (to which all other things are but drudges) besides, what I formerly told you off, which although you account them petty matters: yet are they repugnant to the essence of a Church of Christ: And I see none goeth about to amend them: they have Elders and Officers chosen as if they intended reformation; but the Ministers and their confederates, the Elders do but provoke the Lord, grieve his holy Spirit, and mock and abuse the people of God. Where is any of your great Presbyters that ever confessed that his Parish was too great, and the people too many, although they were twenty thousand, and his Living worth 500 l. per annum: or that any of the people were so wicked that he would spare them out of his Church: or desired to have his Parish divided that he might make way for others more able to worthy than himself. Lest also he should part with some of his Tithes and so diminish his revenue and greatness, which is against his honour and profit.  Pr. 
I have already given you satisfaction to that you now said, and tell you again we must not expect to have a reformation at once; it's a matter requires time and authority to compel obedience to the Orders of the Church, and then you shall see the Presbytery act vigorously, and reformation will undoubtedly go on apace. But I pray you what are those other things to which you take exception, as things abominable, and yet maintained by the Clergy?  Ph. 
They defend and maintain their Popish callings from the Prelates, their old conformity and subscription (which engaged them to be the Prelates, and so the Pope's Vassals) the Patron's right to present to the Churches, the Popish and Apocryphal names of Priests, Parsons, Vicars and Curates; the Book of Common Prayer, and Homilies, and use of popish Ceremonies, maintenance by Popish and superstitious offerings, double benefices, leaving one living, when they can get a greater, thrusting themselves upon people without their suffrage, consent, maintaining Popish Vestries, being a mear mockery of Christ's Ordinance, as if they intended to separate the precious from the vile, when they do nothing less. All which things with others might easily be showed to be abominable, and not to be suffered in the Churches of Christ. Besides these, they plead stiffly, that marrying, burying, and funeral Orations belong to the Ministerial function: and allow of all children to be baptised, although the Children of Turks and Infidels, (but especially those of their Parish) if they be offered to them, how wicked soever their parents are. And in like manner they admit all to the Lords Supper, how unfit soever, if they come but to Church. These, and others such like have I heard pleaded for with great confidence, whilst they have blamed others, who take upon them to preach, not having such callings, as they howsoever gifted; and yet for advantage they will bear with any novice, or ignorant fellow, having been two or three years: or it may be less at the University, and put him up into the Pulpit, not doubting of his calling to the Ministry: And all these in order to the service of these men's pride and covetousness.  Pr. 
I perceive you find fault almost with every thing, although never so ancient and inoffensive: What can you say against Marriage, why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry, having been so long used in the Church.  Ph. 
I answer, that Marriage is a civil action, and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done, and so was used under the Law, and is so used at New-England, and in other reformed Churches at this day. Ruth. 4.9. Lechfield news, etc. pag. 39 It's true, that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civil power, it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oar in every boat, and no man marry but whom they permitted. And by this means it was looked to that the Priests might not marry, and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate, or Licence, lest any grist should go by their mill.  Pr. 
This may be true, and yet the thing not unlawful; for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to join the married couple, and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnity.  Ph. 
Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civil action, and common to all Nations? But that is not all: after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministerial function, the Church of Rome soon made it a Sacrament, and the Ring must needs be added as the outward sign of love, the invisible grace, that as the Ring is endless, the married couples love should be endless. A worthy Sacrament, and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church, for the benefit of the Clergy, both in respect of honour and profit, the two main things of all their designs.  Pr. 
But I pray you, why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister, and a funeral Sermon requisite for them which are living?  Ph. 
For burying the dead. It's also a civil work of Charity for Christians to accompany the corpse of their dead friends to the grave, and to lay them there without more ado: and the dead also may bury their dead; And what the Minister hath there to do more than another man I know not.  Pr. 
It's fit he should give some exhortation to the people: and if he preach a Funeral Sermon, it's done for the edification of the living, and not for the dead, and preaching is good in season and out of season.  Ph. 
I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season: but some times and places are so unseasonable, as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach (as the times now are) for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting (though Paul preached upon Mars-hill (the Judge's Court) at Athens) or to preach a Sermon in a common hall, when a company are at dinner, where no man regards, these times and places are too unseasonable, there being convenient times and places for such religious actions. And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon, they are more inconvenient and unseasonable, then at any other time and place, being more abused; and the very original being naught.  
1. First, we read of no such thing in the Scripture, only we find godly men used to accompany others to the grave, and sometimes made lamentation for them.  
2. Secondly, these funeral Sermons (or rather Orations) were first used by the Heathen, and then taken up by the Church of Rome, who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead.  
3. Thirdly, thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead, and to this day defend it stiffly. And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing, we have left praying for the dead, for the evil of it; we may as well leave off praising the dead by reason of the abuse of it.  
4. Fourthly, now besides this the corruption of the times are such, that the gift for the funeral Sermons, so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers, that generally they always find out one thing or other, to commend the dead for, although most prodigiously wicked (as what man in his sickness, or at some other time, will not do or say some good) for which the Minister presently (in conceit) placeth the dead party in Paradise: to the woeful hardening of the wicked (many of their auditors) in a course of sin, when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister, as a Saint departed, and a faithful brother, according to the blind charity of our Service-Book. And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergy by these funeral Orations, they would as easily be laid aside, as their prayer and exhortation at the grave, for which they had nothing given unto them.  Pr. 
You seemed before to take exception to the Baptism of Infants, and truly you reason like an Independent, who are for the most part Anabaptists.  Ph. 
I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants, whom I conceive to have right to Baptism: but I do not allow of the Baptism of all children indifferently: nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianity.  Pr. 
The ancient Fathers testify the Baptism of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolical Institution, and to have been used from the Apostles times, when whole households were baptised, and no exception of children. And there are many reasons, and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture, both in the old and New Testament, to warrant it. And the very Text itself is clear, Acts 2.39. The promise is made to you, and to your children, etc. And if the promise be made to them (children) they then have right to the sign, or seal of the promise.  Ph. 
Touching what you allege from the Fathers, I confess, I have not all those books in my custody, which I find cited for this purpose; but I have searched divers of them, and if you please to examine them, they make nothing for you. All agree in this, that Infants were baptised in the Primitive Church: and Augustine affirms it to be an Apostolical Tradition. August. contr. Donat. l. 4. ca 23.24. Lib. 10. de gen. ad litter. ca 23. Ciril. in levi. l. 4. But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens; nor of all such who professed christianity were baptised, how wicked and lewd soever their parents were: or whither of the Church, or excommunicate. And such as hold all aught to be baptised, hold that children dying without Baptism cannot be saved. Cipri. Epi: ad fidum. 137.  
And for your Arguments from Scripture, you can thence conclude nothing, But that the Infants of believers have been, and may be baptised. And if you observe where you find whole Families baptised, as the Jailor, Acts 16.14.15.33, 34. and Lydia's, the Parents, at least one of them were believers. And touching that place in the Acts, which only seems so plain to you, If I should admit the promise there mentioned to be that which you mean, which may very well be questioned, it makes nothing to prove that for which its intended, by the men of your opinion, who will have all the children in their Parish, if their parents come to Church, to be baptised. The next words clear it from such construction, and give you a full answer. The promise is made to you and to your children, and to such as are a far off; (but the Apostle further adds) even as many as the Lord our God shall call, so that by your construction, this must be concluded. Converts have right to the promise, and so have their children, etc. You conceive the State hath done well, in debarring the wicked and abominable from the Lords Table, and if the Parents be separated, or excommunicate (so I account them who are debarred from that Sacrament) how can their children have right to the other, as being born of believing Parents.  Pr. 
We conceive, we have sufficient warrant to baptise all Infants that are brought to us, being offered in the Church to be baptised: For although their immediate Parents were neither of them Beleivers, yet some of their ancestors might be (and we are bound in charity to believe they were) Believers: for God showeth mercy to thousands of generations of them that love him.  Ph. 
You are without doubt singular in your opinion, and upon this ground all the children of Turks are to be baptised (if offered in the Congregations) because they proceed from Abraham by Hagar; and all the Jews, because they proceed from Sem: yea, and all the Gentiles, because they proceed from Japhet; and all the world, because they proceed from Adam, I never heard asserted, until of late, nor do I think any Orthodox Divine will maintain it. I confess, I once heard something to that purpose, from a Minister whom you know very confidently affirmed. But afterwards he having to deal with the Anabaptists, forsook that hold, and stood only upon that point to prove, that some Infants had right to (or might be) baptised, which he then, and at other times proved by Doctor Featleys' arguments against the Anabaptists.  Pr. 
How ever it may be with the children of Turks, and other Infidels, yet there is no doubt, but the children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession (although we see not the signs of grace and election in them) have right to Baptism.  Ph. 
I account godless, impenitent persons living in the bosom of the Church as Infidels, and Heathens, and the Apostles rule is so, and in the language of the Scripture, they are dogs and swine, to whom holy things are not to be given, nor the children's bread to be cast to them, Matth. 7.6. And their children (where neither Parent can be judged a believer, which no notorious wicked man or woman can be) are pronounced unclean, 1 Corinth. 7.14. How ever God may show mercy, the Church ought to judge according to outward appearance, and not to admit the wicked Parents to the one Sacrament, nor their children to the other, without reformation in the Parents, or one of them.  
But I pray you, why was not the child baptised, which was brought (from another Parish) to your Congregation to be baptised, I understand the Minister refused to baptise it.  Pr. 
It's true, but it was not refused upon your ground, the Minister consulted with the heads of the Parish, and upon debate of the matter, they concluded it was not fit it should be baptised there, lest it might be chargeable to the Parish.  Ph. 
I am sorry to hear this carnal resolution from such a Minister, and so long taught a people. It seems some Ministers and people dare transgress the Law of God, if it be for advantage. As the Pharisees taught upon pretence of their Corban (the Box) But how doth this agree with that tenet, that all children of such as are members of the Church, by outward profession (which all are in that Parish where that Child was born) ought to be baptised.  Pr. 
If it be a fault, let him, or them answer for it, who did it, it may be they are able to give satisfaction therein. But touching that which you said before, that some are to be accounted unclean; we cannot censure any, as profane or unclean: nor keep them from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper: the Minister cannot do it of himself, without the Elders, (Church-Officers) join with him: Although the Minister know the Communicants, to be prodigiously wicked or ignorant, and in all probability eat and drink their own judgement, or damnation, he cannot keep them from the Sacrament: Such must be suspended by the Church, before the Minister can refuse to admit them; and until than their children ought not to be denied the Sacrament of Baptism, for the reason before alleged.  Ph. 
Touching admitting all to the Lords Supper upon that ground, because the Minister cannot refuse them, not being prohibited by the Church (you mean the Presbytery) I answer, the Minister is bound to forbear to administer the Sacrament to them, whom he knows eat and drink their own judgement for the reasons aforesaid: Although you have not the power of the Church-censures in your hand. The reason is clear, because it is always a sin to give holy things to dogs, and to profane Gods Ordinances. But it's no sin to forbear, to administer a Sacrament upon just occasion for a time. The Jews were not reproved for omission of Circumcision in the Wilderness: Joshua 5.5. and the Passeover upon just occasion might be deferred for a month. Numb. 9.9.10. And although I think it no sin to communicate with the wicked in the Ordinances, where I am not a personal actor, nor approver of their sin, but a partaker. Yet it's without doubt, a sin to be an actor in such a case; for the actor transgresseth the rule, and causeth others to transgress.  Pr. 
It seems you stumble at mixed Congregations, do you ever think to find a Church on earth so clean, as not to have wicked men in it. The tares will grow in the field with the wheat until the harvest which is the end of the world.  Ph. 
I confess, your mixed Parochial Congregations do so far make me stumble, that I much question whether they can be reputed true visible Churches of Christ; And I hold that many of them are not, having not the essentials, either the material, nor formal causes of a Church, in Gospel sense; but are rather the Synagogues of Satan, like Priests, like people, and the best are leprous, and very unclean.  
I know the Tares shall grow with the wheat; Matth. 13.38. but if you mean by Tares, profane wicked men, they shall grow in the field, that is, in the world, not in the Church: the Tares which shall be in the Church until the harvest are hypocrites; profane men shall be cashiered, or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ. But I cannot devise, how its possible these Parochial Congregations can be purged without disbanding, there are so few, who are fit to be Church-members, and so many of the wicked.  Pr. 
Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep, and cleanse the Church: yet we endeavour to put a difference between the precious and the vile, and to give every one their portion, and to order things in the best manner we can, both for the Ministry and people.  Ph. 
It's true, you have the Image, or rather counterfeit of some such thing, as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries. But I pray you what garments have you to keep there, that the Vestry must needs be upheld, the Whores smock, with the Cope, Rochet, Tippet, and other trumpery are gone. And I know not any of Baal's Priests here, who now use such vestments, that there is any need of a Vestry to put them in, or that so many men need be trusted with them.  Pr. 
That meeting which you scoff at is no such Vestry, it's only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in, to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church, and for settling and choosing the Minister, when there is need, and providing maintenance for him.  Ph. 
It seems then that those Vestrie-men, who are there to consult, are more worthy than the rest (who are without) and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult. These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome, advising about the choosing, deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope, and his Church. But I pray you, by what Law of God have these your Vestry men authority to elect, and put out the Minister, and to prescribe rules and Laws for the residue of the people; I protest against all their Orders and agreements, how just soever they may seem, as not daring to submit to such an usurped power, being contrary to Christian liberty, in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians, and in them all Christians to stand fast, and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself. Gal. 5.1. compared with chap. 3.1. 3. chap. 4.10.  Pr. 
I confess this Vestry is not a right Presbytery, nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law: But yet for order and conveniency, I think they ought to be tolerated until the time of reformation. But Sir, what doth this concern you: It becomes you to be a hearer, and a learner, rather than a Teacher having no calling thereunto.  Ph. 
It concerns me, and every Christian as a member of the Church (if your Church be a true Church) to elect our own Minister, and not to have him thrust upon us, either without or against our wills or consents, as the manner now is. And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people, enters not by the door, but comes in as a Thief and a Robber, and hath no lawful calling. Calvin. Instit. l. 4. ca 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23.  Pr. 
For our calling to the Ministry, we doubt not of it: nor ever questioned it, being confident its warrantable. Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawful Presbyters: or at least they stood in the place of such; and acts done by them are valid; Sacraments administered by Papists and other heretics, are right Sacraments, so they be duly administered, for the matter, although joined with their corruptions. And I hold it unlawful for any man, to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister, without a lawful calling.  
And I find that in those ancient Canons, called the Canons of the Apostles, it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter.  Ph. 
This is a poor and insufficient calling, if a Bishop had any authority to ordain a Minister, or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church, which I deny (and the same is a point of Popery) yet, that thereupon the Church's suffrage, or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister, is against all sense and reason, much more against Religion, which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule. Mar. de vulson. de libert. de le Eglises, Gallicane. Pag. 148. ca 9 And for your Canons of which you speak, none regard them; but the more ignorant sort of Papists, they being known to be of a later date than the Apostles: and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffs: Tobits and judith's stories, or Jeffery Munmouth his tales. And those Canons were coined just at his time, some four hundred years since, by some of Jeffery's Religion. But can you show no more than this for your calling, then give over railing against others who have not the same, and yet it may be a better calling than you have.  Pr. 
Why, what do our Ministers of the Church of England want, or what is requisite to a lawful Calling to the Ministry.  Ph. 
Besides abilities of gifts, and inward graces, every Minister ought to have a more due ordination, and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation, for the better effecting whereof, they may take the advice of the learned, who are able to make trial of his gifts, and of his ability, and aptness to teach.  
And then the same is perfected by the free election, or suffrage of the people who are Church-members: And in these things the Scripture is plain; show how you have such a calling.  Pr. 
For the first, I had thought I had given you satisfaction already, when I told you we were ordained by Bishops, who had ability to judge of the Ministers gifts, and were (or stood in the place of) true Presbyters. And for that which you call Election, or the Suffrage, or assent of the people, although it have no place with us, regarding every circumstance in the formality of it, yet we have that which is equivalent to it.  Ph. 
I pray you what is that?  Pr. 
We, at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish, or at least the most of them, either before, or after our admission, and if not, we are presented by the Patron of the Church, who is instead of all the Congregation, being their representative, in as much as he was entrusted by them all, to choose for them all in regard of their weakness, and to avoid confusion in the election: and his act in presenting is the act of all the people, as the Acts of Parliament, being made by those who are chosen by the people, are the Acts of the people. And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one, as of the other: yet, if any man except against the person presented, he bathe his liberty to do it.  Ph. 
O most profound divinity: or rather notable popery. By the same Rule, and upon the same ground, the Pope collated to many Churches in England, and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Dioceses (some peculiars' excepted) and put in, and put out at their pleasures, and this must be allowed for the people surrendered (or rather yielded up by compulsion) into the hands of these wolves (pretending to be Shepherds) all their right and power. But alas, this grew through corruption of time, when Antichrist was come to his height, than he and his Prelates enthralled the Churches, and wrested from the poor people that right which the Gospel gave unto them, and which continued for the first three hundred years after Christ; as is confessed by the Papists and Protestants. Fuller's holy state, li. 2. ca 12. pa. 87. Acts 1.23. & 6.5. Calvin. Instit●l. 4. ca 19 Sect. 31. & 14. Se. 31. Cath Divine. An. Caudrey Case. Prefa. sect. 8. Magd: Cent. 2. ca 7. cent. 3. c. 7 Cipr. epist. l. 1. epist. 4. & epist. 3. & l. 1.3. epist. 11.  
But these Wolves made void the Law of God, by their Traditions; and the slavish Ministry of England are unwilling to come out of this Babylonish servitude; but with Issachar, because he sees rest is good (or rather his Benefice fat) he croucheth down under the burden. But see the use and equity of it in our days; it may be at the first this power of presentation was given to a good man (or rather he took it) because he founded or endowed the Church) but by revolution of times it comes by descent or purchase to an Atheist, a Papist, a Symonist, or some wretch not fit to be trusted with the life and death of a dog, much less with the souls of men. And by this means the souls of men according to that Prophecy become the merchandise of Rome, for who seethe them not set to sale almost by every Patron? yea and their bodies too, Rev. 18.13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. for according to the number of the people, and the profit of their bodily labours is the Advowson sold for more or less. And I know no other way in all the world, how the bodies and souls of men can be made the merchandise of Rome, but by this means: nor is the Prophecy any other way fulfilled; for if it should be meant of selling slaves, that properly belongs to the Turks.  Pr. 
But I told you (although some Patrons prove Latrons, and sell the Presentations) the people may except against the party presented, if he be not a worthy man, and if they do not, it's their own fault.  Ph. 
You had need to have more skill in Divinity than you have in the Law: Alas this Liberty is but a mere gullery and cozenage of the people. If any one refuse to admit, or do keep out the party presented. And a quare impedit, or such Writ be brought to try the right, God's Law never comes into question, but only who hath the best title to present by the Law of the Land, which is Popish in that point (as in many others the Lord of heaven amend it) and looks only upon the presentation as a temporal right without judging the matter, as appertaining to Religion: therefore I pray you speak no more of this matter; for the more you stir in in it, the more it stinks: But show me some better evidence of your calling.  Pr. 
I will show you sufficient; We have abilities and gifts fit for the Ministry, being apt to teach, and able to divide the word of truth aright; And our Ministry is sealed by the conversion of souls: and however our outward calling in a nicety may be defective: yet we have the inward, which is most effectual; and therefore there is no cause of separation.  Ph. 
For your calling I account it not right, for what you formerly alleged: And for that you last said its no proof that your calling to the Ministry is lawful: for a private man may be abundantly gifted, yea, and convert souls, as common experience showeth, and yet have no calling to the Ministry. And this I dare farther add, and know by mine own observation, that God doth not bless the Ministers labours, who have received the mark of the Beast (by their conformities and subscriptions) as he doth the labours of other faithful men. And the reason is, because they stood not in God's ways, for if they had, they should have turned the people from their iniquities. But for want of a faithful Ministry, it hath pleased God to bless the endeavours of godly Parents and religious governor's of families, and private Christians (who with Joshua serve the Lord) to the conversion of many more souls than are turned unto God by these men's Ministry, how learned and Orthodox soever. So that where a man can hardly find any converted by the Ministry of these men, he may find the footsteps of Religion and godliness derived from religious Parents and Families, for the continuance of the Church from generation to generation, even to admiration. And your old conformity and Subscription, which you are constrained to defend by Popish arguments, when you have to deal against the Brownists and Independents, are a great blemish to the Ministry.  Pr. 
We subscribed to nothing which was unlawful, although many things were inconvenient.  Ph. 
Thanks be to God that we be rid of the Hierarchy of Archbishops, Diocesan Bishops, Arch-Deacons, Deans, and the rest of that rabble, the Books of Common-prayer, Homilies, consecration of Priests and Deacons, with the spiritual Courts, Licenses, Dispensations, Commutations of Penance, Consecration of days to Saints, and some to wicked men and Idols, as the Cross and the Rhoode, days observed by some, forbidding of meats and marriage at some times, with their Canons and Ceremonies, Crosses, Surplices, worship of the breaden God, and many other popish trinkets. All which the most ingenious amongst yourselves have condemned, as not capable of purgation, but fit to be abolished: else I could easily prove the whole body of them (which are contained in your Subscription) most of them being enjoined and set forth in the Rubric, and the rest comprehended in your Oath and Canonical obedience to be relics of Antichrist invented by that man of sin and his vassals; and are at the best humane presumptions brought into the Church without warrant of the Word, Vid. Preface to the Common-prayer Book, or teaching Ceremonies which Christ only ought to appoint, who is the Teacher of his Church; and serve for nothing else but to mislead the simple, and to offend the weak, and tend only to conformity with Rome: And therefore altogether unlawful. But chiefly the Cross (which in Baptism is made the sign and Seal of the whole work of Sanctification is the worst of all Popish Ceremonies, and the greatest Idol in the Romish Church (except the Virgin Marie) for that blesseth all the rest, and therefore is the greater, as Bellarmine teacheth, Bellar. Contr. de sacra. Confer. l. 2. c. 13. pa. 371. These things you know better than I do; yet I name them thus briefly, that you may consider of them, and not wilfully hudwink your conscience, and imprison or withhold the truth in unrighteousness, but that you may come to the sight of that your sin; and as you have publicly offended, you may make public satisfaction, by manifesting your repentance for this public breach of the second Commandment.  Pr. 
Peter offended grievously in denying his Master, and yet we find no public confession which he made of his sin, nor any such satisfaction as you speak of.  Ph. 
Although his form of confession is not mentioned, yet its clear he manifested his repentance so that it was fully taken notice of. What greater manifestation of sorrow than tears; and what greater sign of repentance than sorrow for sin with amendment; both which were evident in Peter; his sorrow, his weeping is mentioned by three of the Evangelists, and one saith he wept bitterly. And the Evangelist Luke, who wrote the Gospel, either saw it himself, or heard it from them which saw it, Luke 1.2. as he did the rest of the story of our Lord in the flesh. And therefore no private weeping. And for his repentance, it was answerable to his offence, otherwise his conscience could never have been so well satisfied, nor would he have been so confident in professing his love to Christ as afterwards he was, John 21.16, 17. Nor did Christ upbraid him for not manifesting his repentance, as he did Thomas for the hardness of his heart and unbelief. And why should you think much to confess your offence more than Patrick Adamson the late Archbishop of Andrews in Scotland, Bartro. Apolog. in Exord. who confesseth his sin and error touching Church-government, and others have done the like.  Pr. 
If I were satisfied in my conscience that conformity and subscription to these things was a sin, I should be willing to make satisfaction: I shall think upon it further hereafter, and do what I find fit to be done as near as I can.  Ph. 
You speak ingeniousy, I have not known many Ministers of your condition would say so much. I only offer you this consideration; you deservedly expect that such as have committed offences against the seventh Commandment, something less than the gross act of adultery, and that in private before it was revealed should publicly give satisfaction to the Congregation; and it was done so; Spiritual Adultery is worse than corporal. And every breach of the second Commandment is a degree of it, and yours not the least. I leave you to apply it, etc. And if I could see you repent of this sin you would then hate the garment spotted by the flesh: and would cast off the very names of Parsons, Vicars, Curates and Priests. And every name and thing belonging to Baal, and say to them get thee hence.  Pr. 
What think you of the late prebend's, I think you cannot find more favits in them, than you impute to our painful ministry: And all men condemn them as useless, and unprofitable.  Ph. 
The Prebendaries, although but of humane Institution were more tolerable than these Parsons, Vicars and Curates, more innocent in their foundation or Institution (at least many of them) less destructive to the Churches, and not so diametrically opposite to the Kingdom of Christ in the outward administration of it.  Pr. 
I am sorry you should justify a company of idle drones, who are justly abolished as unprofitable burdens, and such as have eaten up the fat of the Land: and consumed that which might have maintained many faithful Ministers.  Ph. 
You mistake me, I do not justify them, but comparatively (for I think they are justly abolished) I say they are more tolerable, etc. and that I will justify.  Pr. 
I hold it it impossible to prove that our Ministers, Parsons, Vicars, and Curates are worse or less tolerable in any respect then the late Prebendaries.  Ph. 
Touching their persons as men, Scholars, or Preachers, I shall say nothing but this, these Ministers and the Prebendaries were as sheep go to the fold, some good some bad, some learned, others unlearned, some Preachers, others dumb Dogs, some idle drones, others more painful, some sober and temperate; others given up to Luxury and drunkenness, some Politicians; others moral honest men, some devout; others profane, some more Orthodox: others erroneous and heretical, some more sincere and Gospellike; others wholly given up to superstition.  Pr. 
I do confess of both sorts of these Churchmen there were, which have had their vices and virtues, such as have been eminent for virtue and piety, and others infamous for wickedness. But wherein lies the difference that you prefer one before the other, the worse before the better.  Ph. 
I prefer the Prebendaries in two respects. First relating to their original or Institution. Secondly to their practice and condition of life. For their original, I consider these Prebendaries as a civil society or corporation, as a Hall or College in the University, and so they were the Bishop's Council or Assistants, who was a Baron or Peer of the Realm having his place in Parliament. Secondly, and for their practice and condition of life as they were not, so they stood not as Ministers having (as you call it) cure of souls, as the Parsons, Vicars, and Curates usually had.  Pr. 
This was not all their employment, or office; they pretended to be Preachers and Ministers, and had much of the revenue of the Church in their hands.  Ph. 
I confess the Prebendaries as many of your pretended Clergy have had fat morsels for their little labour: But that seems to be the simplicity or devotion of those who gave it to them. Howsoever if they did any service (as I told you what was their Office) it could not be expected they should wait and attend the Bishop as his Council for nothing; especially they being the supports of his magnificence. And the matter of that Hierarchy being to be upheld with so much policy.  Pr. 
Our Ministers serve for better use, and therefore to be preferred before these Prebendaries: Is this all you can say for them?  Pr. 
No, I can say something more, I told you what they were in their institution positively; now I will add something of their negative righteousness, which I formerly touched at, viz. They were not originally instituted to stand in the room of true Pastors, As our Parsons, Vicars, and Curates were. They were only bound to preach (by themselves or others) certain Sermons yearly in the Cathedral, not pretending to any Pastoral charge: And so as they did little good they did little hurt. But when with their prebend's they got Church-livings, and became Parsons and Vicars; they became more guilty of the blood of souls then ever their prebend's could have made them. Then they became Pluralists, idle drones, non-resident, kept out true Pastors, made a strong faction against reformation, and to uphold their Parsonages they joined with the rest to keep Christ out of his Kingdom.  
Now lay all this together, your Parsons, Vicars and Curates are of the devising of Antichrist without warrant of the word, and are such as I have described: The Prebendaries and their appurtenances are justly cashiered, see now if it be not high time to pluck up those also.  Pr. 
It doth not appear to me there is any evil in these names, you shall find many godly and Orthodox Divines, Parsons, Vicars and Curates, who show themselves glad to be quit of all the Ceremonies, and hearty desire a through reformation, and some of these are not ashamed of the name Priest.  Ph. 
I pray sir forsake these Apocryphal and Popish names, for a great part of the Religion of Antichrist is wrapped up in such names of his Creation, as Cardinals, Abbots, Priors, Arch-Bishops, Lord Bishops, Deans, Arch-Deacons, Chancellrs, Commissaries, Parsons, Officials, Vicars, Curates, Priests, etc.  Pr. 
For all these names and Orders; but the four last we have nothing to do with them: and what harm is in any of these four names; or what offence comes by them, I know not.  Ph. 
I shall endeavour to let you know somewhat of that evil which I conceive of them.  
1. First, in their Institution and original (they having no foundation in the Scripture) are of Antichrists devising, and in their nature and use contrary, or unlike to the Ministers of the Gospel, who are only Pastors and Teachers. For their original, they grew up in this manner. The Diocesan Bishop (who in corrupt times was conceived to have the care of all the Churches in his Diocese, which for the most part were endowed with all the Tithes of the Parish) did usually appoint the Priests or Ministers, which indeed were but the Bishop's Curates or Clerks.  
Fuller's holy State. Lib. 2. cap. 12. p. 87. citeth. Conci. Toledon. An. 589. Can. 9  
Now when the Bishop had given to the Minister, the cure of souls, and care of the Church, with all the Tithes and profits thereof, undiminished by his Institution, he was called the Rector, or Parson, which very Institution being accepted, was an acknowledgement that the right to the Church was originally in the Bishop, and that made the Parson but the Bishop's Curate: or rather servant or Clerk: and so it continued until the dissolution of the Bishoprics.  
2. Secondly, the Vicar (as a Clergyman said) was created, or rather made by the Devil or the Pope: for when the Parson grew too great, or the Patron had founded a Monastery, or other superstitious house towards the maintenance thereof, the tithes of several Parishes which formerly belonged to the Churches, were appropriated, and this was done by the Patron with consent of the Bishop, and the incumbent Priest, if there were any, and sometimes this Appropriation was made by virtue of the Pope's Bull: and then the care of the Church was in the Governor of the house (or otherwise according to the foundation) who served the cure (as they called it) that is performed the Idolatrous service by a Monk of their house who was called the Vicar: and to him there was allowed for his pains, sometimes a stipend in money, sometimes the small Tithes, etc. such a proportion as he could agree for with his Master, the Governor of the house: And when the house came to the Crown by dissolution, it stood charged with that stipend: or else the Vicar had the small Tithes, or such part thereof, as formerly was agreed for, and the Bulk of the Tithes became a Lay fee, and were sold out, and enjoyed as the superstitious house held them, and the Composition or endowment of the Vicar remained, and so continues as his portion to this day for serving the Church, etc. But usually he had his institution from the Bishop.  
3. Thirdly, the Curate grew in this manner; when the Bishop held a Parsonage in commendam in his own hands, to augment his Bishopric, or a Parson grew idle; or had several Church-livings; then they hired some inferior Priest for what they could to supply the cure for a year, a month or as they could agree; and he was called the Curate, who came and went according to his pay, and at the discretion or will of him that hired him: and so he continues to this day.  
I tell you these things not because I suppose you know them not, but to put you in mind how unlike these orders are to the Ministers of the Gospel; for you see the Gospel had nothing to do to approve or disapprove of the pretended Minister, Parson, Vicar, or Curate, but all was originally in the Pope (or in the Bishop his Vicegerent) from whom the Bishop originally received his power, which continued here in force for many hundred years.  
Cath. Devin. Respons: Cook. l. Caudrey. Case. pa.  
4. And for the name Priest, its true it is a contract of Presbyter; but as it's used, it commonly signifies a Popish Mass Priest, and is a a derogation from the Office of the Lord Christ; for I know none other sacrificing Priest in Gospel-sense; but Christ who was the last Priest and the last Sacrifice.  Pr. 
Well, I account there is no evil in these nams', yet for offence sake I shall be willing to leave them: and do conceive that the Ministers of the Gospel who are to continue to the perfecting of the Saints are properly Pastors and Teachers, who ought to be maintained liberally, and to have all encouragement by payment of all things due unto them.  Ph. 
I have already told you what I conceive of their maintenance, and particularly what I think of tithes: But there is one thing which I wonder at, why the Ministers should stand so much upon superstitious offerings and mortuaries.  Pr. 
They have been anciently belonging to the Church: and although they of the Separation say they were the things of Idolaters, I doubt not but they may be used being converted from their Idolatrous use.  Ph. 
As for those offerings which it seems you agree to be Popish, as indeed the most of those Offerings were, which were offered at the Altar (called the Altarage of the Church) some to Saints, Idols, or Devils to whom the Churches were dedicated; others to the Virgin-Marie; Some for Tapers and Lights, and other superstitious uses; others taken from the Jews by the Papists.  
I conceive all these unfit to be given to, or received for the service of God: for that some things of Idolaters, not Idolatrous in State, as their goods and houses may be made use of for maintenance of the service of God: But those things of theirs which were Idolatrous in State, that is, such as were invented by Idolaters for perfecting their Idolatry, and served for no other use (as all Popish Ceremonies and popish offerings) ought not to be used by Christians.  
And for those Jewish offerings, it is no more lawful to use them to retain Circumcision and other Ceremonies of which Paul saith, If you be circumcised Christ profits you nothing, Gal. 5.2. for that the retaining of Circumcision is a forsaking of Christ, and makes us bound to fulfil the Law; and with that all other Jewish Ceremonies are abolished.  
And touching Mortuaries, they are a foolish and ridiculous offering, and were anciently given as an amends and satisfaction to God (but they went to the Priest) to purge the guilt of the deceased; which he contracted by his nonpayment of Tithes whilst he was living, and aught as well as other Offerings be laid aside; according to that, Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore, nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord, etc. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols. Deut. 23.18.  Pr. 
But now I pray you according to your judgement, what must become of all our Churches; It seems by your argument (if one may believe you) they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach, what say you to that.  Ph. 
Touching the name CHURCH, in your sense I do not greatly like it; for it properly signifieth a Company, and is used for the company of the faithful, yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymy, to signify the place of their meeting: And I do not conceive there is any necessity to pluck these Churches, or meeting places down. I contess I put no holiness in them, and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place: and that there is neither Legal nor. Evangelical holiness in them. And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious pictures, and Monuments of Idolatry (I do not mean the Arms of men of renown) and placing a faithful Ministry, there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God.  Pr. 
Why say you so? These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatry: And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now, as these Churches, I think both aught to be allowed indifferently.  Ph. 
I hold there is great difference: First for those I spoke of formerly, we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin; and its possible to show when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome. But these Churches (at least many of them) are more ancient than Popery or Antichrist; for it's not possible that Antichrist could come until the Roman Empire was broken and removed, which was at least four hundred years after Christ. Before which Christianity was plentifully spread in England, and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God. 2 Thes. 7, 8. Reve. 13.2.  
Antiquity with full consent agree that Christianity was here planted in or near the Apostles days, and that upon occasion of the Persecution that risen about Stephen Acts 11.19. divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England, amongst whom the Ancients reckon, Peter, Paul, Joseph of Aramathea and Simon Zelotes. And that some Britons, both men and women were famous Christians, and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions. Fox Act. & Mon. vo. p. 147. 148. Speeds Chron pa. Now then we cannot conceive but that the piety and devotion of those times (when they had a Christian King, Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ. and Christianity countenanced and privileged by divers of the Emperors, especially Constantine and Theodosius) would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places. Besides, about the year six hundred, when Augustin the Monk (falsely called the English Apostle) came into England, sent by Pope Gregory the Great, who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop) he found the relics of many Churches, and Congregations of Christians, planted in England and Wales. Fox Act. & Mon. vo. pa. 150.151. And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies, by which it's conceived he brought not so much Religion with him, as he did superstition and Introductions to Popery; for the Britain's had learned Religion from better Tutors: It's true, afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry, all which, with the Relics thereof, being swept out, they are clean as before.  Pr. 
But what say you to this, many of our Churches were Idols Temples. Goodw. Ant. Ro. ca 20. de delubro.  Ph. 
The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God, the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples: But I confess some of the Cathedral Churches were the Temples of Idols, as of Jupiter, Apollo, Janus and Diana; some of which are demolished, and some were new built, as Paul's at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since: At which time he put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins, and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops. These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols, or rather Devils and false Gods, and therefore aught to be demolished, as I conceive, according to that Law; Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods, and break down their Altars etc. Deut. 12.2, 3 etc.  Pr. 
Well, I hope shortly to see the Church-government settled, with the Classes and Synods, and that thereby all things will be well reform, for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done, and many will see more than a few.  Ph. 
I should be glad to see a through Reformation; but I do much fear these prudential things the Classes, Synods, and Appeals to them, will prove but imprudentiall, and Physicians of no value. And I doubt not, but those who put the Parliament upon them, have their own ends and aims in them.  Pr. 
Why say you so? the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Council at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience, Acts 15. and why may not we do the like?  Pr. 
I deny that there was any such Appeal as you mean; its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem, to advise with the Apostles, Elders, and Church there about that matter. And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church, as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders, which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation, and what they directed them, was in stead of the written Word: We have no persons so gifted in these days, but must have recourse to the Law, and the Testimonies, the written Word of God.  Pr. 
But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors, Heresies, and Sectaries, and keeping the Church free from pollution?  Ph. 
I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gonernment, I'll say nothing of it, but take thus much, mark the end and observe it. These things the Classes, Synods, and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ. The Appeals are in effect the same we had before from the Archdeacon to the Consistory of the Bishop, from thence to the Arches, then to the Audience, and then to the Delegates, so from the Congregation Presbytery to the Classes, from the Classes to the Provincial Synod, then to the Nationall. Here is work for the Civil Lawyers, to wire-draw a cause (as a Proctor once said) until doom's day, if he lived so long. These are not so likely to do good as the superintendency of Bishops, which grew up within the first three hundred years after Christ, and were ordained as (was pretended) for a remedy against Schism and Heresy, which yet proved more dangerous than the disease, and made way for Antichrist the head of Prelacy. The Commission granted by King Henry the eight to the Lord Crumwell; Fox Acts and Monum. vol. 1. pag. 503. to visit the Clergy. And the. High-Comission (Stat. 1. Eliz. ch. 1.) granted in the first year of Queen Elizabeth's Reign, had as great show and Probability of doing good as these Classes and Synods. And for present I conceive did some good: But when wicked men became High Commissioners, that proved a notable scourge to the godly of the Land: And so will your Classes and Synods in a short time (when wicked and ambitious men get into the chief places and Power) prove as bad, if not worse, because they be more than the High Commissioners, who were but two and thirty. And this through the just judgement of God, because these Policies are not of his appointment.  Pr. 
Why should you say so?  Ph. 
Because God never useth to bless means devised by man, to accomplish his work in things appertaining to Religion: especially when they come in Competition with those things which he hath appointed, when men's posts are set up by God's Posts, or when Gods means are laid aside. For example, God hath ordained his word and the Censures of the Church, to keep and drive out the profane, and to bring them to Repentance and amendment of life: Instead of these the State erected, or rather continued from the Papists the Spiritual Courts, or rather Bawdy Courts whose Officers lived upon the blood of the best, and the sin of the worst. I need not tell you what profit or rather hurt came to all sorts of men by this means. To come a little nearer to that which hath a little more show of State-Religion: The Parliaments of this Nation have made several Acts & Ordinances for reformation of offences against profaning of the the Lords day, and against swearing and drunkenness; but the Church-Censures have not been used for those ends; See but the effect, what good these Laws have done, no reformation, much less any repentance in the Delinquents, for the punishments touch not the heart and soul: But for the present, cause the sinner to rage and rail, and some to vow to be avenged of those who accuse them, and some to sin on purpose to provoke others who are more grieved for their transgressions then they themselves, or because of the sleight punishment appointed for expiation of such offences; whereas if God's ways were taken up, he would bless the same for the conversion and amendment of such as belonged to him; and the rest would either be outwardly reform, or at least left without excuse: So than if these things be not of God, I shall expect no good from them. And can those things which are. merely prudential overtop those things which undoubtedly are of divine institution. The foolishness of God is wiser than man.  Pr. 
But you said even now, that those who put the Parliament upon these things, have their ends and aims in them. What good or profit can they have by such Classes, Synods or Appeals?  Ph. 
They do much conduce to uphold their double honour which they labour so much for.  
I conceive the chief Engineers for contrivance of these things are the greatest, and wealthiest of the pretended Clergy, who have the greatest power in every County, which they extend to the utmost, having an oar almost in every boat, and they take themselves wronged, if they may not order or contrive all designs, both concerning peace and war: nay and their projects reach very far, take but a view of the late great designs, wherein, besides their secret interests in particular Statesmen, which they extended far, and wherein they prevailed much: Their public preaching was almost nothing but Politics in many places; Their fear was (and yet is) that the Parliament and Army complying, would spoil their great live and countenance their opposites more than they, and so the wheels of their Chariots would fall of. This fear they termed the misery and danger of the Church (as the late Archpriest Laud did in a case not much unlike theirs) And their prayers and preaching must prevent it (if possible) and further their design, which was: First to raise a new war, and then to prepare the silly people to entertain the Scots (as avengers of the Covenant) to perfect that design which was to set up that Government and Platform which they had modelled as near the Scotch fashion as would stand with their honour and profit, and by their subtlety and earnestness they prevailed much upon the people, and many of the more religious sort believed them both in City and Country. During this time they bent all their force against Rebels, Heretics, Schismatics and Sectaries, which they said did much endanger the Church (that is the Diana of their great Live.  
Well, it pleased God (by part of that Army of Sectaries whom some of these men had cursed, and scoffed at by the name of Saints) to frustrate the design (by scattering the enemy's Army, almost miraculously) which was not prepared for relief of the Church, as our Clergy told us, but to root out and destroy the godly of the Land. But the snare is broken, and we are delivered, blessed be God; and there that design ended. Now these men fall to work afresh, and if you will believe them, the Heretics and Sectaries do again threaten the destruction of the Church of God: and more hurt comes to the Church by these Heretics and Sectaries than did by all the Marian Persecution: and accordingly the people in many places begin to believe them as they did before. But the Centre where all their lines meet, and the Axis upon which they turn, is their honour and profit; for for if they can hold their own, they have and will have all the best live, all the people's heads under their girdles, and all the power in the Classes and Synods: and so upon the point the power of the County, and of the whole Commonwealth, and will without doubt reign in the Consciences of all sorts of men, and encroach upon the Temporal power as much as their Predecessors the Prelates did before: And this must needs conduce to their honour and profit.  Pr. 
Alas it cannot be conceived that so learned Orthodox men should aim at such ends, being for the most part godly, painful Preachers of the word.  Pr. 
I do not judge all Ministers, but conceive many to be faithful: but I speak of the most of those whom you account the best, the Ringleaders, chief Projectors, and rigid of the Presbyterial Party, whose preaching for the most part is but reading, and their Sermons for the most part Politics, either concerning Monarchical Government, Liberty of the people, Municipal Laws, Obedience to Princes, foundations of Government, Levying of War, disbanding of Forces, exalting the Clergy, payment of Tithes, punishing of other men of contrary judgements under the names of Sectaries and Schismatics, defence of Classes and Synods for politic ends, under pretence of Order, defence of their own Callings to the Ministry, and other such like tending to their honour and profit; And in effect their preaching itself is but a preaching of themselves, when they tell us of the great honour due unto them, and of their great labour: that they travel as those that bring forth labour as the husbandman, may as under Rowers in Turkish Galleys, from whence one said the Metaphor is taken: although there was no Turkish Galleys within the space of 620 years after that was written. And of their honourable maintenance which they plead for, All which are but mere Policies: and oftentimes with these things they mingle divinity, as Thomas Aquinas doth Philosophy with his School divinity. And upon the whole matter Preaching is made but a trade to get money, and to live by, and the Conversion of souls comes in but as a subordinate end, to their other advantages.  Pr. 
I wonder how you dare thus vilify the Ministers of the Gospel, they take no more honour to themselves then the holy Prophets, Apostles and men of God did assume; and for their painful callings, they say no more than Paul and others of the Apostles said: And for their preaching its a matter of labour, and always founded upon some Text of Canonical Scripture.  Ph. 
What I have said is no way dishonourable to the holy Prophets, Apostles, Penmen of the holy Scriptures, to whom agree all those things properly which these Politicians falsely and arrogantly take to themselves.  
First for honour, it stood in this that they were the Secretaries of almighty God, and of the Lord Christ, the unerring Scribes and Penmen of the holy Ghost, holy men of God, and are all in heaven. And for their labours I refer you to a Catalogue of them, left recorded by the holy Apostle Paul. 2 Corinth. 6.5.11.23. etc. But above all their labours there mentioned, behold the sufferings who (as the Prophets did) most of them laid down their lives for the Lord and his Christ, and for that truth of God which they delivered. 37, 38. Hebr. 11.36, Where are any of these men who dare say this honour belongs to them, they have undergone these labours, or have suffered thus for the Lord Jesus his Cause or truth.  
All they can say, is, that they are Ministers of the Gospel, I wish that were true, from my very soul if it be not, but I doubt the most part of these men make merchandise of the Gospel, and in managing thereof use as many sleights and deceits of men, as others do in secular Callings, carrying all their business aloft in a mystery that they may be accounted Oracles; and will have every one bound to believe all they deliver, how false, frothy, and erroneous soever, because their Text is a part of the holy Canonical Scripture, but a great part of their Sermon no kin unto it: but composed to further their own honour and profit.  Pr. 
You talk of many sleights and deceits which they use in their Ministry, I pray what are they?  Ph. 
I could tell you many: but I will only name two of these men's sleights (besides what I have already pointed at) which tend much to their ease and profit, and are invented of late.  Pr. 
What are those?  Ph. 
The first is this, when they are young and have little or nothing to do, They make them a common place book of the Body of Divinity (as young Lawyers make them a common place book of the Law) And this they gather out of such writings as suit best with their genius or fancy; the most fantastical, who would be counted most learned, collect it out of the Schoolmen (a sort of rotten Divines) and Fathers, especially Origen. The superstitious out of Schoolmen, Postillers, and other Friars; the most discreet and sober out of the writings of modern Divines, as Perkins, Amesius, Chemnisius, Musculus, Calvinus, Vrsinus, Vossius, Beza, Rivetus, Weames, Peter Martyr, Piscator, and such like. The more ignorant sort make use of Boyce's his postils, or collect a company of Sermons, either as they hear them preached: or as they think fit to cull them out of the great store of English Books, which are in every place to be had. And this may be some two years' work, and that is time enough: when this is done they are ready for a Church Living, and without doubt (as one of the sons of the Prophets) have an especial calling to preach. Then they come from the University, and bring with them the curse of Elie's house, crouching to some or other to put them into the Priest's Office, that they may eat a morsel of bread (have a Living to maintain them and keep from want) or use their friend Simon Magus his wisdom to show an apparition of Angels, and by that means wrap for a thousand bodies and souls of men or more or less as their purse will speak. Well, the bargain is made, the man is approved of, rung into his Church, and gives great hope that he will be a peaceable man, and use the Parishioners well for their Tithes. And so falls to preaching so soon as he hath had sufficient time to fit himself, to satisfy the humours of his auditory (which is a main Policy at the first.) And to this purpose (if he have not his Sermons already written) he takes a a Text suitable to his common place upon which he will preach, and writes his Sermon in a Book verbatim. Then when he comes up into the Pulpit; instead of preaching he reads his Text, and all his Sermon out of his paper Book, which sometimes for the credit of his Cause is bound up like a Bible; And this is the pains he takes, and is as confident that he dischargeth his duty as if he exercised all the gifts of the Spirit: and this Sermon serves for twenty Texts being reduced to his common place: This course the most learned and Orthodox amongst the rigid Presbyterials (whom I know) do take from day to day, some making better Sermons than others; but generally all are tacked with these diseases of idleness and hypocrisy in this respect. The idlest and most unlearned read over their tasks of Sermon, having but a certain number (as I have seen proved upon oath) and then begin again: And I once heard one that lately was a Minister in London, charge another that he never studied, but on saturday night wrote out of a book half an hour's matter, and then read it in the Pulpit on the Lord's day, and another that he thought not of his Sermon until the bell ringed. And yet all these men in my knowledge pass for constant preaching Ministers, and neither Readers of Homilies nor dumb Readers of the old fashion: whereas indeed they that thus read, are either such as with the evil Servant and slothful, hid their Talon in the Earth, or are not Ministers of the Gospel, not being apt to teach, and so not of Gods sending, and without repentance shall have a reward according to these works.  Pr. 
It may be some men's memories be short, and have need of helps; I take this to be no great fault: If the other slight you speak of be like this, I shall make no great matter of it.  Ph. 
There is a vast difference between walking with a staff, to stay a man if he should slip, and going upon crutches without legs: the same proportion is between reading a Sermon, and having some notes for help, if need be; the last may be allowed, but the first is no more than a child's work, who can read without the exercise of other gifts. And the dumb dogs of this last age, who are cashiered, were judged by all learned men to be no Ministers of the Gospel for that very reason. And to defend themselves they were constrained to hold that reading is preaching.  Pr. 
There is something to that purpose, Acts 15. Moses is preached being read in the Synagogue every Sabbath day. And when it's said, Acts 20.7. Paul continued preaching (at Troas) until midnight, the word signifieth homilizing: It's not certain what Sermon he repeated, whether his own or some others.  Ph. 
This indeed I heard once from a learned man; and it is the Argument of Doctor Heilen (a Geographer of more learning than conscience) a superstitious Divine. But it's a shame for any Minister of the Gospel to take for his refuge such a Burrow of a dunce. To what end go you to the University, only to learn to read? For answer to these Texts, to that Acts 15. I confess in a general sense reading is preaching, that is, declaring, or showing forth, or publishing, but when it's applied to the Minister, it is taken in a strict sense, for reading and giving the sense, or expounding answerable to Ezra's reading the Law, Neh. 8.3, 4, 8. and so it must be understood; which preaching is also called teaching or prophesying; to which that a man may be fit, he must be 1 Tim. 3.2. apt to teach, and able to divide the Word of truth aright, 2 Tim. 2.15. to anatomize, as it were to lay open every vein, joint, and sinew. And touching that of Paul, The word is likewise indifferently used for preaching or rehearsing; but it's a senseless thing to conceive, that Paul having extraordinary gifts of Prophecy and Revelation, besides ordinary gifts fit for the Ministry, would lay all aside, and betake him to another man's Sermon, and become a pattern of idleness to all dunces to the end of the world. But because no such Sermon appears, we must presume he spoke as the Spirit gave him utterance. If our Ministers had Paul's spirit and gifts than they would sure be ashamed of such reading.  Pr. 
What is that other sleight (as you call it) of the Ministers, with which you find fault?  Ph. 
It is their removing from place to place, for none other cause but ease and profit.  Pr. 
How can that be, removing is chargeable, and the saying is, The rolling stone gathers no moss; and it's also painful and troublesome.  Ph. 
It's true, it is so to other men who remove upon necessity, or upon hard terms, as they do when they over-buy their Live; for some of them are never able to give a dog a crust of their own afterwards. But the most take a wiser course, never to remove but to a greater Living, or for some great advantage one way or other: and upon every remove commonly they endeavour to take the Summer's profits of both Live, or get some other help to bear charges. Howsoever they have commonly no loss in removing: and for the most part they double or triple their Revenue: And if not, they have this benefit, That when all their old Sermons are read over, which is commonly done in two, three or four years, and sometimes sooner, than they are all new in a new Living; and then they confidently say them over again, which doth abundantly save their pains, and afford them leisure to oversee their Tithes, to build, plant, take their ease and pleasure, or follow any other employment beseeming their qualities and conditions. And this is the other shist of which I told you.  
Now I have given you my reasons wherefore I conceive these men of so great honour and credit intent no reformation. And that their pride and covetousness absolutely hindereth the same more than any thing in the Land.  Pr. 
Why should you not think they intent Reformation, have they not submitted to the Ordinances of Parliament enjoining Reformation, and conformed themselves so far as the State hath appointed, and what hath been done by the Parliament, hath been done upon the Assemblies advice, unless it be in some few particulars.  Ph. 
I confess the Assembly hath done something which is in effect as good as nothing, if we rest there; and it may be observed they have not acted any thing against their honour and profit.  Pr. 
Why say you so? show me how or wherein that may appear.  Ph. 
I shall easily do that in many particulars.  
1. First they have renounced the Prelacy being a curb to them, and obscuring their magnificence, and some say they were Antichristian. But they defend their Callings from them lest they should be accounted no Ministers.  
2. Secondly, they have left the Ceremonies as unprofitable; but they retain their Popish offerings.  
3. They give over reading and praying at the grave, for which they had nothing; but for their fee they will make you a Funeral Oration.  
4. Fourthly, they tell you they desire the Call of God and his people to their Live: but if they can get the Patron's presentation, or the Committee for plundered Ministers Order: they will fight for it ere they will leave it, let God and his people say what they will.  
5. Fiftly they are content to lay aside the Common Praier-Book, and reading Homilies as empty forms and nurses of idleness, but they will read all their Sermons, many of which are scarce so good as some of the Homilies Vide Homily against the peril of Idolatry.  
6. Sixthly they will not buy two Live, and so become Pluralists, for sometimes the bargain is hard and too dear; But they will take take three Live or places during the Sequestrations (so they can have them freely) which may continue during their lives.  
7. Seventhly, they at least most of them put no difference in admitting to the Lords Table (although the Parliament have enjoined some to be debarred) lest those debarred should be thought to be none of their sheep, and so they lose their Easter offerings and Tithes. But they are content to comply with the heads of the Parish in their Vestry to keep out the poor, and others not of their faction, and so (in conceit) separate the precious from the vile, who might make head against them.  
8. Eightly, they leave of caufing the Corpse to be presented in in the Church; But they will have the Corpse present or mortnarie; or what covers the corpse, where the Law will give it them.  
9 They say, the Church and Chancel (regarding the materials) have no holiness in them, and they account it superstitious to hold otherwise; But you shall neither lift up axe nor ham to break the ground, especially in the Chancel, unless you pay to the Parson a large Fee, besides what will repair the ground, and then you may bury the dead as high as the Altar Place.  
10. Tenthly they are content that the Altar smelling of Idolatry should be taken away: But they expect the gift or offering called the Altarage; used to be offered at the Altar.  
11. Eleventhly, they scruple (and some have refused) to baptise the children of strangers by whom they have no profit; but they will baptise all the children whose Parents live within their Parish (being offered within the Church) lest they should seem to be none of their flock, and so they lose their fleece.  
12. Twelvethly, they have laid aside their superstitious Procession; But they must preserve their perambulation walk and limits of the Parish, lest they lose any of their tithes.  
13. Thirteenthly, they cried down the High Commission, as a Rack for men's consciences; and yet they will needs be spiritual Judges and Commissioners of Appeal too, so that they (Pope like) may have the sole Power and the Laiety may have nothing to do there.  
14. Fourteen, they will Petition for an augmentation to be granted to them by the name of the Ministers, etc. And yet for advantage you may be permitted to call them Parsons, Vicars, Curates and Priests: And in conclusion whatsoever is burdensome, and tends neither to their honour or profit that they are willing to part with all. But if any thing conduce to either of those ends that they retain.  
I have now shown you in some sort the Character of these Reformers, to the end you and others may know yourselves and your fraternity better than before.  Pr. 
Do you believe that all these men sin against their own consciences in what they do in their Ministry.  Ph. 
I do not say so, nor do I believe so: but rather think that many amongst them are godly men who through inconsiderateness (taking things of trust from the chief actors and forward men, and some merely through simplicity being willing (as every man is) to be persuaded of the lawfulness of such things as serve for their temporal good, especially being controverted, and so many subtle heads, some reputed for godly men employed to defend them) have fallen into (or rather been misled up at the University in) these sins and corruptions, and thereupon they retain the taste of that wherewith they were first seasoned: every man being unwilling to be accounted imprudent, which is argued by making retractations of former errors, and being also suspicious and loath to entertain any new custom, or to decline from the Traditions of their Ancestors: especially if they were reputed wise and learned. And that is the reason why the Ceremonies and other corruptions in worship and Discipline which are lately abolished stuck so long upon as they did, namely, because Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, Hooper, and other learned godly men left them to us at the beginning of Reformation: although all those who left them did not approve of them (Vide Fox Acts & Mon. vol. 3. pa. 146.147.) nor intended they should continue, but that there should be a further Reformation, as appears by the very Rubric of King Edward's Common Praier-Book: and these had been soon abolished but for the reasons aforesaid. And because the Prelates grew worse and worse, as all men do (who walk in an evil way) until they return.  Pr. 
But what course is most probable and likely to bring on a Reformation.  Ph. 
Truly not to believe men that are interested: and especially such who have hitherto laboured to drive on their own designs of honour and profit, and are guided by principles of pride and covetousnese: as the Ringleaders of the established pretended Clergy are: who fearing to lose their fat morsels (as a godly man said) for their little labour, abuse the State with false surmises and pretences of Reformation which they will never accomplish.  Pr. 
Why? This famous Assembly of learned Divines have long consulted about the affairs of the House of God, and have propounded to the Parliament ways of Reformation, and where it sticks I cannot tell.  Pr. 
I had almost said, the Mountains have traveled and brought forth a mouse. I wish for their good, many of them had less learning upon condition they had more conscience and honesty: And that some Paphnutius (who would not be lead by the multitude in their opinion; but convince them sound, not by Philosophy but by the word of God) were amongst them them, to stir up those that are sincerely godly, who I doubt are but few; and those wearied out with the noise of the multitude of them who vex their righteous souls from day to day by their ungodly deeds. And therefore not to trouble you further, I must tell you I do so far despair (not of any Synod, as one of the Fathers said, but) of this Assembly their doing any good in point of Reformation, That I hope and expect shortly that the Parliament will find cause to send them away from Westminster, with a charge to preach abroad in the Counties, to leave Politics and preach Christ, and so endeavour to prepare the people for Reformation, where their preaching may surely do more good than their state-policy can do at Westminster: And when that is done (if the Parliament by fasting and Prayer will solemnly seek and consult with God, and then advise with such godly and learned men, who are no way engaged as formerly was done in the days of King Edward the sixth, when Paulus Phagius, Martin Bucer, and Peter Martyr, and other strangers were called into England for that purpose who never received the mark of the Beast) than I doubt not but to see a Reformation to some purpose, and not before.  Pr. 
Well, however let us not lose that we have to seek for that which it may be we shall never have; our Parishes are true visible Churches of Christ, and so confessed by the Ministers of New England, and by Mr. Cotton in particular.  Ph. 
It may be some Ministers of New-England will say as much as you say, yet that doth not make your Parishes true visible Churches. As for Mr. Cotton, he refused to take upon him the Charge of any Parish-Church, and upon that ground, separated and renounced his Calling from the Bishop's divers years before he went to New-England. Lichfords news pag. 7.8. & 22. And the practice at New-England, showeth that they are not of our opinion; for all the people professing Christianity are not members of the visible Church, but such as are admitted as Church-Members.  Pr. 
Well, what ever some others think in all places in this Land where Parishes are divided, there is either a lawful Minister, or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth, or at least publisheth (by reading) the word of God, and administereth the Sacraments to the people: therefore in charity they ought to be accounted the Church of God.  Ph. 
The division of Parishes, and such a Ministry and Ordinances as you speak of, are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ. For than must almost all the Congregations under the Papacy be visible Churches: for amongst them the Parishes are divided, and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation: And those Popish Congregations had the word of God daily read: nay and preached constantly, and expounded in many places by their Friars and Postillers, as may be seen by their works in Print; Nay, and their very Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them: although most miserably corrupted, and mingled with their own inventions. They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time, and have yet at least. Calvin. Instit. l. 4. ca 3. Sect. 11. Baptism (mingled with Popish Ceremonies, of which the Cross is the worst) and some other footsteps of a true Church. And if these had made a Congregation a true Church, poor Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ, the Parishes being divided, and the Churches furnished with such a Ministry, and Ordinances as you speak of. Yet (he and others) have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel, and rejecting Christ and his pure worship, in as much as there was no Reformation, although it cost him and others their lives for their boldness. Entri. Cook. Judit. pa. 352.  Pr. 
You speak of dark Corners of the Land, as if none were in better condition: you may find amongst the many thousand Parishes of this Nation, many visible Churches of Christ, and mine in particular.  Ph. 
I doubt not but there are many visible Churches of Christ in this Commonwealth, and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called. But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ.  Pr. 
My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted, and the Church founded; you know not the contrary, and therefore aught to admit it, having so continued beyond the memory of man until this day.  Ph. 
When was your Church founded?  Pr. 
You yourself have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England, before Popery came to its height, and the Ministry and Churches were then settled, and had succession from the Apostles days: show me when the Succession failed.  Ph. 
If I should admit the place that you call Church, viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Popery, yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church: your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance.  
First, it is to be considered that the whole Current of History agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Britain from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger, which was almost five hundred years; and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ, during which time there were not above five of the Emperors who were either Christians, or showed favour to Christians, but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors, Heathens and worshippers of Idols, some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ, and drove the Professors into corners, they not daring to meet in public. When the Roman Empire was broken, or at least was grown to an ebb, the Saxons invaded this Island, and about the year four hundred and fifty the Britain's were beaten into Wales by Gormundus, and thence grew the great College of Monks at Bangor, with whom Austin contended.  
And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens, and had their Idol Priests, Flammins, and Arch-Flammins (like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignity and Power) and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ: where is now your Succession?  Pr. 
But yet there were many faithful Christians, both Pastors and others in the worst times, and I could tell you of many who suffered Martyrdom for Christ's cause in this Nation; and if we cannot prove Succession, it is rather for want of the light of History, then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors. Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchy, and Idolatry which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since: we have a very fair Succession.  Ph. 
This indeed many of you boast of, but it makes little for your purpose. To omit to speak of the misery brought upon this Land, and the decay of the true Religion by means of the incursions, or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time. It is certain, and you cannot deny it, that all your successions both of Ministry and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church, or rather the Whore of Rome, who had all at her devotion until King Henry the eight drove out the Pope and kept Popery.  
Cath. Divine An. Caudreys' Case. P. 108.109. Bed. l. 1. Hist. Angl. ca 22. & 27.  Pr. 
Well, it's true, that for about five hundred years, until the Reformation began, the Bishop of Rome usurped authority over the Church of England; but yet all did not submit alike: some faithful men escaped both Ministers and people; as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards, who grew in great number, even in our Country about two hundred years before the Reformation. From which time of Reformation you cannot deny, but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church: where there hath been a competent number of faithful people, and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome: for the Pope's Supremacy was abolished by King Henry the eight as you now said.  Ph. 
If the rejecting of the Pope's Supremacy make your Parish a true Church, than likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches; for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Pope's Supremacy, and have not received the Council of Trent; but have had a Pope (a Cardinal) of their own for many years past. And Cardinal Richelieu (called a Prince of the Church) was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterbury.  
Marc. de vulson des Libert. de'l Eglise Gallicane. lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235.  Pr. 
You cannot deny the Succession of faithful Ministers, which if you admit, you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation.  Ph. 
For your Succession it's a mear dream, If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches, than was there no Pastors of those Churches: for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor (as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched) yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in being. And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation, it was interrupted in Queen Mary's days, when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor, who had his authority from the Bishop, who was a Papist and held of the Pope, I could tell you their names if need were. And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling, or Ordination, but from the Bishops as long as they were standing.  Pr. 
If this were true touching Succession, yet you cannot deny but that we have the word and Sacraments; and a company of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithful Pastor, are a visible Church of Christ.  Ph. 
Touching the Word and Sacraments, I have already given you an answr, and indeed the Papists and almost, all Heretics pretend as you do, and have the word amongst them, and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have, and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ, as all you do acknowledge.  Pr. 
I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that, the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations, that it's made a leaden rule to be bowed every way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions; and their service is in Latin which the common people understand not. And for the Sacrament of Baptism, it hath so many additions that the Nature of it is destroyed. And for their Ministry, they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices.  Ph. 
I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ, but limbs of Antichrist in respect of their Callings: yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more than I do Pope Gregory the great, Thomas a Kempis, Ferus, Stella, and other their Preachers, whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times. And for corrupting the Scriptures, if putting false Glosses upon them, make God's word cease to be God's word, then are you Formalists deeply guilty; for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt: and yet you allowed it, and many of you used it translated in the late Service-Book. And all that you allege for your succession of Ministry and visible Churches, your Classes, Counsels and Synods, their authority over other Churches compelling others by the Temporal Power to believe and worship God as they see best, is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses, and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament, and other popish Authors, and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans. And for the Latin Service, it is much like our Organ Anthems, both edifying alike, and the one as tolerable as the other. See the old Protestant and New Formalist. Pa. 36.37. And concerning the Papists addition of Cream, Salt, Spittle, etc. to the Sacrament of Baptism. I confess the addition wicked and abominable, and yet no worse haply, nor so bad as the Cross (which you received and used) for that serves to bless, or rather conjure all the rest, and is honoured with Divine honour, and an holy day appointed for it. And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administered by the Papists (who do not administer it but with these additions) to be a true Sacrament: And you hold that those who were baptised by Papists are not to be rebaptised.  Pr. 
For my part I have cast off these corruptions, and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation, which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergy have approved of, and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish.  Ph. 
I fully understand your design, you and your fellows intent the old (but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation, wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus, and your proceed are so ridiculous that every indifferent capacity hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness.  Pr. 
Wherein are we guilty of such shuffling, or why are we so ridiculous?  Ph. 
In your proceed for upholding your Parishes, you pretend one thing, viz. Reformation: but your end and design is to avoid the danger of losing your Live, in case the Parishes should be dissolved.  Pr. 
I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured, we continue our preaching, and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to God's word.  Ph. 
For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely apply yourselves to it, for that probably may do some good: but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politics than Religion squared by God's word.  Pr. 
What Policy can there be in settling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods? we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto, and to be judged by as well as the people.  Ph. 
Let the Government be what it will, so your Live and estates may be secured, it's no great matter, if the Parliament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches, that you may hold them entire, and the people be enforced to pay you all your Tithes, Oblations, obventions, Mortuaries and other deuce, you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit. And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Commonwealth. But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger, you know no other way to secure them but by settling this Government. And this is the mark at which you shoot: take but a view of those places (your own Parish for one) where the Elders are chosen, do they serve for any thing but Ciphers, or do you and they act any thing towards Reformation, but merely to this end and purpose?  Pr. 
I do confess if the Churches were equal or independent, so there were Government, as well in Church as Commonwealth and other things in order it might be well. And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on, it is because the Elders refuse to act or join with the Minister.  Ph. 
I confess, I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to join with you in your business, haply because they have found out your deceit, which is merely to make a show of Reformation, but your chief end is the securing your Live.  Pr. 
That is not the cause of their refusal, it is because the Parliament doth not arm them with power to execute their Offices, and compel obedience to their injunctions, as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates.  Ph. 
If your proceed were of God, you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church (and for those which are without, you have nothing to do with them) The censures of the Church are God's Ordinance for that end, and are most effectual. But for that compulsive power you speak of, it savours of the Tyranny of Antichrist, and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate: which title I have not heard used by any Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered, who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers, but like the Pope between both.  Pr. 
I confess the Elders formerly chosen (some years since) in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief. But now lately I myself and the Churchwardens have nominated others, and the Parish have assented to the choice: and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership: yet they have assented to join with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table, which is a chief point of Reformation, and I rejoice much in it.  Ph. 
How did you prevail to bring the business so far?  Pr. 
I had found some difficulty in it, but that at last I gave the honest party (who best liked our proceed) good satisfaction, and so the choice was very free and unanimous, none opposing.  Ph. 
How was that possible, seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding, how came it to pass that none declared against it.  Pr. 
I do confess some few there are in my Parish, whom I knew to be of contrary judgement, and some stick not to say our proceed are Antichristian, and have no foundation in the word of God, but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated, and at the choice of those Assistants.  Ph. 
What course did you take? I desire to know, for I have heard you censured for that business.  Pr. 
First, I conferred with the wealthiest, best, and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice, some in private and some in company with others at several meetings, and gave them satisfaction, and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort: And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince, I warned them publicly in the Church to absent themselves, and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business. And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen, that they should only assist me in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion, and do nothing else, they assented, and I hope whll cheerfully join with me in that work.  Ph. 
Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation?  Pr. 
It is a principal part thereof, we must wait until we can bring on the rest.  Ph. 
It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders, but assistant, I am sorry you have showed yourself so bold, as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church: show me where ever any man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself, or with two, three, or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons, as you and your new fashion Elders if they be ruled by you intent to do. I confess in the Popish Congregations, and lately here in England the same was practised. The Bishop or his Chancellor with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate, or debar from the Sacrament, but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joining in that act. And the Churchwardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest, as your new fashion Elders are, and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom: and so most suitable to your Parish Churches, which are not fit for lawful Elders, no more than they are capable of lawful Ministers.  Pr. 
I have erected no new Office, but the same which the Scripture holds forth: only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister. And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament, it is included within, and is part of their Office, Mat. 18.17. where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders, who are the representative Church: for the rest it's answered before.  Ph. 
That question concerning the Church, I will not enter into, but leave it to the learned, who have sufficiently discussed it; But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place: for the Church always signifieth the whole body, Ministers and people, or the members distinct from the Officers.  Pr. 
This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us, and the Independents are founded, I shall wholly wave you; you have heard my opinion in public to which I adhere, and shall do until I see better cause to alter my judgement.  Ph. 
Let that pass, but what was the reason why you carried the business of choosing your pretended Elders, so clandestinely and with such policy, without hearing other men's opinions, who were of contrary judgement.  Pr. 
To tell you the truth, I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered, and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions, and to carry on the work as smoothly as I could, and I am glad of it.  Ph. 
It's a sign you think your metal is naught, because you fear the Touchstone. The truth seeks no corners, but in light shines more clearly.  Pr. 
The truth may have opposition, and yet is the same still. We fear not the touchstone, but the sleights of men: who most oppose those things which are best.  Ph. 
It seems now you have your desire, what proceed have you made towards Reformation, do your pretended Elders act according to your mind, do you think they perform their duty.  Pr. 
Yea truly, I have much comfort in them, and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile, and yesterday we made a very hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertook to do in joining with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table.  Ph. 
What course did you take to make that separation.  Pr. 
The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament, and accordingly I published my intention, not to admit any who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined. And many of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly.  Ph. 
Your pretended Elders are very confident: it seems they see with your eyes, and hear with your ears: But I pray you what did you find by examining those who came to you, and concerning what did you examine them?  Pr. 
I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion, and touching the nature of the Sacraments; and and for others whom I feared not, I did not examine them at all, although some of those came to me, and others sent in their names, and I entered them all in a Book, as well such as appeared as those who sent in their names, and did not appear.  Ph. 
But did you all this yourself, I mean examine the people judicially in order to their admission to, or suspension from the Lords Table, and that by the advice of your new Elders or assistants; surely herein they made you an absolute Pope and sole Judge of that which the Bishops never allowed, nor do your Brethren of the Province of London approve thereof. But was this all you did? I do suppose you and your Elders should have informed your selves whether such as intended to communicate had set up Christ in their Families and places, in the exercises of Religion, and had showed forth by their conversations the signs of faith and Repentance, these things are necessary for all Communicants.  Ph. 
For the lives of the Communicants they are better known to others then to me, and for my part I shall not take notice of them, but do desire that those who are privy to such offences as may justly debar the receivers from the Sacrament will make it known to me, and I shall acquaint the Church, viz: the Elders with it, and take their advice what to do: And so shall I likewise crave their assistance in Judicial Examination for the future.  Ph. 
It seems you go no further, but only to bring the people to conform to your new Government: for I understand you had some of your Communicants were so very ignorant that they could not tell you how many Commandments there are: and others knew not what Faith was; and others answered as ignorantly: And yet the names of these were taken by you, and they admitted to the Lords Table, and none were refused.  Pr. 
It's true, I confess I found some ignorant, but very willing to conform and receive instruction, and that gave me good hope of them: And therefore for the present lest I I should discourage others, I admitted all that offered themselves at the Table whose names I had before entered in my Book: and divers others who were not of my Parish came also to my Church to receive at the same time for the encouragement of others.  Ph. 
Do you account this superficial dealing separating the precious from the vile, when none are refused: It is just as I expected it would be: this is but the Counterfeit of Reformation, and much like the Reformation which many in the Church of Rome would willingly have, for they have written divers Books tending to Reformation, so it might not demolish the stately Fabric of their pretended Church, but might rather polish it by taking away those things which all men cry shame of, and which do therefore endanger their Church, the reforming of which would give them more hope of the continuance of the old Idolatrous Babel, which yet together with all your devices will ere long come to ruin.  Pr. 
Nothing is perfect when its first brought forth, what ever you think, I conceive this to be a good beginning of Reformation, and I hope we shall proceed in it, to more perfection. But touching the Reformation of the Church of Rome, I never expect any, they being appointed to destruction. These are but the discouragements of you and others who oppose the setting up of all Government in the Church.  Ph. 
I have often told you, we do not oppose all Government, we would only have this building demolished, that a better might be set up in the room of it.  Pr. 
What course would you have for preaching the Gospel, if the present Ministry should be removed, and the Churches disbanded.  Ph. 
Without doubt the Parliament seethe how that may be provided for. For my part I wish that all the Parishes were dissolved as to the matters of the Church, and all the Tithes belonging to the late Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Deans and Chapters, Donatives, Parsons, and Vicars were released, or sold at a reasonable rate to the owners of the Lands out of which they arise. And these probably without any addition may raise a sufficient revenue for maintenance of a godly and able Ministry, through this whole Commonwealth, to preach the Gospel to all who will hear the word of God. And all who shall be found worthy may be employed.  Pr. 
What will this conduce for Reformation?  Ph. 
By this means this plant (I mean this Popish Order of Ministry, who unjustly usurp authority over the bodies, souls and States of men calling them their Churches, their Parishes, their flock, their sheep and their Tithes, as if all were theirs nothing Christ's) not being of the planting of our heavenly Father, will be plucked up, which being removed the faithful will have liberty and opportunity to separate themselves from the wicked and profane, and be gathered unto Christ under true Pastors and Church-Officers, who will lead them in the paths of righteousness and truth, where being associated together in Church-fellowship they will be more reform then ever can be expected from any company in any Parish-Congregation.  Pr. 
Well, I now fully perceive what your intent is: in a word, you set yourself to cast contempt upon our learned and reverend Clergy, and to take from them their double honour both of reverence and maintenance; and to bring them as low as the stipendary Clergy of Germany. And I see no hope if your amendment: I will therefore spend no more time with you: yet I doubt not but we shall hold our Parsonages and Churchliving as formerly we have done. And if some will needs separate, let not that hinder us of our Tithes and profits, and then let them run after what new Teachers they please: If they run from us we are discharged of that care, which we should otherwise have of them.  Ph. 
Sir, it may be before you and I meet again, you may wheel about and change your mind as you and some others have done already: Remember what I say, and so far you well.   

POSTSCRIPT.  
REader thou mayest perceive by some passages in this Dialogue, that the same was written some months (if not years) since: which is true, and the Author was resolved (finding it difficult to get it pass the Press) to bury it in oblivion: Hoping also that the pretended Clergy of the Land would have considered their ways, and been wise: But finding the folly of some of them through their Pride and Covetousness to grow into madness, this Messenger is sent to stop their way; farewell.  
FINIS.