The Reclaimed PAPIST. OR The Process of a Papist Knight reformed by a Protestant Lady with the assistance of a Presbyterian Minister and his wife an Independent. And the whole Conference, whereby that notable reformation was effected.  
1655.   

The PROLOGUE. To my Noble and ever honoured Friend JOHN COMPTON Esquire.  
FInding myself unable to master the trouble and alteration wherewith I was surprised upon the loss of two Friends about Christmas last, whom I had reason to esteem, and several other afflictions that came upon me all at once; I took the advice after a few days disquiet to divert my thoughts by some unusual employment, which might turn the stream & not choke up the source, giving work enough to entertain my mind & not tyre it, being both substantial and yet an easy exercise. Walking therefore all alone in your garden I fell into remembrance of this present subject, which liked me well because my head was full of the story and passages thereof; that it would prove easy to me on that account to write it, and yet being unaccustomed to make books (this being the first) I should be sufficiently taken up thereby, if not in the inventing of matter yet at least in the ordering of words to the exclusion of unprofitable passion which would otherwise creep in and to much annoy my mind.  
The conceit has proved right. For at two months' end, wherein my mind as busy as any Bee was wholly taken up in inventing contriving writing and reviewing these Dialogs, by that time I had fully finished them, I perceived my passion wholly allayed and my spirit in its wont temper. And now I see clearly and do publicly proclaim that every passion is in the command of reason, and that industry both prevents sin and subdues sorrow.  
The whole work consists of three parts wherein nine arguments are handled, in each part three. 'tis disputed. 

I. Whether innovation of Christian doctrine may be made by man, or hath ever been made by the Papist.  
II. Whether it be prudence to cast away our explicit articles of belief and betake our selus to the Bible for our faith: and whether hearing and preaching of the Word of God be the capital and essential work of Christian religion.  
III. Whether the church may for the quiet of some person or nation comply with opinions she would otherwis dislike of: and with opinions have happened at times contrary to popery.  
iv Whether it be sufficient to salvation only to believe in Christ as the unum necessarium.  
V Whether the articles propounded in the oath of abjuration, as the pope's supremacy, real presence, purgatory, worship of saints, and merit of good works, be plausible doctrine.  
VI Whether the said oath may be honestly taken by any man upon earth Christian jew or pagan: whether in all & every controversy of religion there may be given one general rule against which no sectary can except that shall notwithstanding conclude infallibly for the Catholic, without turning a leaf of Scripture, counsels or fathers: and with may be the grounds can retard a papist from reformation.  
VII. Whether the Apostls and Evangelists were all papists, that is to say such Catholics as be at this day.  
VIII. Whether any one text of Scripture may justly be brought out of the old or new Testament against the Catholic church, or any one article of her faith: and whether reason may possibly frame an argument to convince a papist, or remove him from the rock whereon he is seated.  
IX. Whether each particular opinion or positiv article of popery rejected by the reformation will not seem to right reason indifferently stated, if it allow of any religion at all, more rational and pious than the contrary negativ.    
These be the principal things disputed in my nine conferences; which be so ordered that they have not dependence or connexion one with another, but each several Dialogue is a book by itself.  
Some doctors have thought that the sacred Dialogues called the book of Job are Historically true for the ground and subject of the Discourse; as that there was such a person as job; brought into such a dejected condition; set upon and checked by three neighbour Disputants there named, and the like. But the words and tenor of their speech this they think was ordered by the sacred Penman according the property of the persons proportionable to his own drift and purpose, not so much heeding to set down word for word what they did say as what they might say.  
The same is to be thought of these Dialogs; for the ground and occasion of them is real History. A papist Knight offering love to a Protestant Lady could not have audience but under condition of changing his religion For that purpose she brought him a Divine accompanied with his wife a witty woman to confer with him, and by their help reclaimed him. But my Vicars was you may think more pregnant in her gnomeys texts and doxes, than I have suffered her to be in this literal accost, wherein she stands like a saltcellar at a banquet, only for a grain or two of seasoning: for I was loath to have my book overswoln with her witty vanity. I was somwhile in doubt whether I should let her come in at all or no; but because in the last Dialog she alone with the Lady in the Minister's absence reclaimed the Knight I had too much prevaricated from the truth of my story & wronged her honour if I had quite left her out. Besides sigh the Minister & his wife were commilitores in this employment, I could not well separat whom not only the common wealth but even their common warfar had united. 
Quos comune homine genus & telluris Origo,  
Deinde thorus junxit, tandem ipsa periculajungunt.  That all the world may see and acknowledge how necessary it is for parsons to marry, to the end they may have a fellow labourer in the harvest; and when the good man is sick; his wife may be ready at hand to supply the place. You will surely love my Vicars when you meet with her; for she is, in a right description, a featous body and soul linked together with words for the good of something.  
The work being ended (so much as I mean to put forth at this time) comes running voluntary and of its own nature, as you see Sr unto your friendly hands; where it doubts not but to find a favourable entertainment both by the candour of your own nature, and your particular good will to the Author several ways expressed. If it be so happy as to give you content, I shall applaud the evil that occasioned me so much good; as indeed all crosses of this life if they be well managed do operat unto further good and benefit than would have happened without them. It will be to me a double comfort by these few exercitations both to have overcome my own trouble; and also to entertain a friend I do so highly respect.  
Your many civilities and much kindness towards me clayms a right in all my thoughts and actions, and therefore indeed when they be presented to you they come not as offerings of worth but of duty; though I should myself take most pleasure in duty that is serviceable. Although Sr I had not a motiv of obligation, the great temperance and moderation I have observed in you, such as I have seldom seen in young Gentlemen of your age, your retired disposition & self sufficiency to live contentedly in your own breast, whilst others with much expense of time sack themselves abroad, would have invited me to the boldness of this address: for books love to be presented to the hands of such as will peruse them.  
Which way soever your inclination bends in matter of Religion, either my Knight's discourse will answer to it, or at least the reasonings of his three opponents against him; either his valour in the defence of his Religion or his fall from it.  
Three things I have mainly aimed at in these conferences; that they should be useful, familiar and new. Useful and beneficial both by the choice of a grave and weighty subject such as is Religion and virtue, & also by a rational vindication & defence thereof: Familiar and easy, both by an ordinary form of words, natural and proper to the language wherein they be written, and by the easy flowing strain without any logical collection of syllogism or citation of authors & authority of Latin sentences: Unusual and new, both by handling such things as have not yet (at least for aught I know) been treated of; & by abstaining both from all common places & heads of controversies, well have been already over and over and more than enough discussed, and also from the ordinary way of handling them if they do chance (as in the fift Dialog they do) to light in my way. For we find that a crambical repetition of the same things brings a nauscousnes upon men how important soever the things in themselves may be; peopl also are now run into new ways of error, and there for new ways must be thought on to reduce them.  
This purpose of mine, I am sure is good; but God knows how far I have hit it. Where any man that is my friend perceius me to fail, let him not spend time in vain to chide and censur me but help me, for his helping hand I do humbly crave of him; if he be an enemy let him use his discretion.  
If I find these three Dialogues pleas, I shall be encouraged to bring up the arrear. The book is perfect already of itself; yea each particular Dialogue is a book without dependence of another: but the Papist yields not till the last, where he submits either to the understanding of his two opponents, or to the will of his Lady; either to the great beauty of their reason, or to the reason of her great beauty. The parson is absent in the last Dialog, but the Vicars' fights it out to the last, and leavs not the field till she see the Knight prostrated at the Lady's feet, whose constant champion she was.  
So that the papists overthrow must indeed be attributed to the Vicaresses valour, who therefore fell because she disputed, according to that kind of demonstration Artistotle makes mention of, Sol lucet, quia Socrates ambulas.  
Noble Sr continue still to love him whose gratest pleasure is to serve you. J. B. V F. C.   

THE FIRST DIALOG.  LADY. 
I have Sr Harry according to my promise brought here a worthy Divine to enlighten you in the way of truth: to the end that the lettance of popery removed we may at length come to that period you have so earnestly and so long desired. For I am resolved before the conclusion of any such match either with yourself or any other so to provide aforehand, that I may meet with nothing afterwards to disturb my union repos and peace with him I wed myself.  VICARES. 
So indeed it is written: In the beginning God made heaven and earth. And then afterwards he gav himself rest: Gen. 1.  LADY. 
Your birth and breeding Sr is noble, your person pleases me well, and your nature is very agreeable, I lov your deportment, your spirit is very pregnant and its endowments numerous, your conditions all good, your fortune is plausibl and kindred renowned, your knowledge and activity equally high and commendable, your conversation towards all men sober prudent and sincerely just. Only one things spoils all your other good qualities; you are a Papist.  VICAR. 
It spoils all indeed, according as 'tis written. One knot of dead flies spoils a whole box of ointment. Eccl. 10.  LADY. 
To deal sincerely with you, I lov not popery: this you must renounce or me. If some few conferences with this worthy orthodox may avail to that purpose, your conversion once effected I am yours.  KNIGT. 
Madam I shall be willing to learn, very glad you may be sure to gain two paradises at once.  MINISTER. 
Well Sr, I will show you in scripture, that there is not in the whole word of God any such thing, as Masses, Popes, Breviaries, Missals, Monks, Cardinals, Nuns, Beads, Liturgy, Shrines, Altars, Vows, Indulgences, Lents, Purgatory, Dirges, Priests, , Rosarys, Merit, Jesuits, and the rest of popish medley.  VICARES. 
Well done sweetheart, lay his load upon him that he may feel it and couch under it: for so it is written, Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens, Gen. 49. You use to say that Issachar it Greek for a papist, and the two burdens a pair of panniers filled with popish trumpery.  LADY. 
Fair and softly good D, that we may not irritat but heal. Proceed we step by step, that my good Knight may cheerfully accompany us in our conference beginning first with generalities. Sr. Harry you must not be obstinate in old errors, but be willing upon good sufficient motius to leave any whatsoever opinion be it never so ancient. 'tis antiquity keeps you hood winked.  VICARES. 
Old things are passed away behold all things are become new, saith the Scripture, 2 Cor. 4.  MINISTER. 
The multiform grace and industry of several reformers raised by the Lord have brought things to light which were hidden in former ages. And you may see daily new discoveries made both by particular persons and parliaments, Luther's lamp that was first held up in the midst of darkness revealed very much of truth afortime unknown, but after him several other torches lighted at his, opened yet more in several Christian Countries. I need not travel far to show you this. Our English writers from Harry the eight unto this present day will make it sufficiently manifest unto you if you could peruse them, how that still the succeeding Doctors added ever new degrees of light to the discoveries of foregoing divines. Parliaments in the same manner did not all at once remov superstition out of the land, but perfected the work of reformation by degrees, which is indeed a progress most conformable both to to nature and art. Room was not built in a day, nor will it in one day be destroyed. The path of the just saith Solomon is as the shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day, Prov. 4.18.  LADY. 
This is handsomely spoken. Think seriously of this good S Harry: and be as ready to suspect that for an error which lay hid longer as that which was sooner discovered; so shall all your popery melt away by degrees like icicls before the sun.  KN. 
I see and acknowledge that new reformations in Religion are daily made; but whether to the edification or ruin thereof does not yet so clearly appear. A continual taking away is an odd kind of mending: nor do I know any thing in nature made better or greater thereby save only a gap. The pretended lights that have risen from time to time one after another I have hitherto taken to be mere unwholesome exhalations, sulphureous meteors, or some ignes fatui good for nothing but to lead men into lakes and ditches.  
The daily rising of new opinions in Religion makes me rather suspect all than approv of any innovation; because thes opinions are all of them but new denials of some part of the ancient Catholik-faith which former reformers had not yet attained the confidence to reject: so that it is still but the same kind of audacity & the very self same prescription, with an addition of some new degree of daring. And there was never any harlot that cast of all her  at once, but according as she grew by degrees more shamless. They that threw down the altar left a tabl standing in the Church, and the first violatours of pictures did not break all the glass windows, yet their succeslours have finished the work, and the bare walls now standing are dangerously threatnd. In the same manner be articls of faith defaced and razed in the hearts and spirits of men by a gradual proceeding of infidelity and heresy still increasing in its growth of immodesty, till of the whole fabric of Christian religion there be not left one stone upon another; which is the way not of composition but solution, it does not renew but impair.  
I should look strangely upon that Phesition who will first make me believe I am sick when I do not find in myself that I ill any thing or complain at all; and then taking upon him even against my will to reform me in my health, purges me too & again till I be not able to stand on my legs, drawing still from me till my body be quit consumed, and never adding any positiv thing to sustain me. Or if he should begin on the outsid, and first tear of my , than my skin, and so my flesh, and bones, still telling me it is for the renewing of my health and cheerfulness, I could not judge this other than outrageous mockery, and most cruel inhuman abuse. Yet such and no other be all reformations in religion; a continual cancelling of doctrines formerly received and practised, a daily taking away without addition of any thing, and that in despite of the Church who's doctrine it is. This is one reason I like not to hear of thes reformations much les to behold with mine eyes the woeful ruins and disorders accompany them both in Church and state.  
Another is, I cannot see when there will be any end thereof, the successors still pretending the unlimited right of innovation the unlimited right of innovation left them as hereditary by their fathers, which right for aught I see all generations are equally ambitious to put in practice; so that nothing is stabl or secure, nothing at all unchangeable; nor can any one tell either what faith he lives in, or in what he is to die. Indeed such men as would not be contained in their bounds by a profession of infallibillity which they had in the Church, how shall a profession of fallibility exhibited by heresy contain them! a fallible liberty and a free fallibility can never lin rolling; nor will they ever rest stated, till they be fallen into the gulf of atheism.  MIN. 
Do not mistake us Sir Harry, we do not intent that variety of reformations should afford an argument against your stiff standing Popery in that way you take it. But desire you only to consider, that inventions have been perfected by degrees, all arts & sciences, customs, garbs, languages and wtever hath been at any time invented or used by man, as you shall soon perceiv and grant if you would let your thoughts descend unto any one particular: The art of making of watches how is it bettered wthin forty or fifty years, and our English tongue purified. Thus running over the whole employments of men's hands and understandings you will acknowledge with us, that addition of new faculties in men of succeeding tims hath still perfected the rude & unpolisht works of foregoing ages. In the same manner Religion afortim obscur and mixed with several superstitions is by latter times illustrated and cleansed.  LADY. 
'tis therefore no marvel that every ten or twenty years new ways are invented by fresher wits to oppugn Popery.  KNIGT. 
Madam, thes several new ways of heresy argue first, that the ringleaders and followers of the Lutheran faction the most dangerous epidemical revolt I think hath ever happened since the Apostles days did not forsak the church for any reason they had so to do, but first forsook the church and then sought out a reason to colour their revolt. For had they had any one or many reasons for their division, thes being once cleared and answered by the Catholic church, so far that they could no longer insist upon their scattered principls, they would have returned unanimously unto that body whence they and their forefathers' had impiously apostatisd; and not have studied other shifts as vain as the former and perhaps more wicked too, whereby to maintain themselves and adherents in the wretched Schism whereunto they had formerly run purly indeed upon sensual and carnal motius, whatsoever themselves pretend.  
Secondly thes new ways and daily alterations of sectaries do sufficiently demonstrat that out of the Catholic church there is not that unity consent and stablnes which may mov a prudent man to believe that either all those Sects together, or any one of them are that mystical body of Christ that keeps an unity of spirit in the bond of peace. Eph. 4.2. and which is fitly joined and compact together; v. 16. sigh they neither agree together in the articles of their heleef, nor yet in the motius of their apostasy from that church that is and ever hath been so united and compacted in itself; nor have in themselves any stability or consistency at all. That is not grounded which never lins moving.  
Again, thes new ways of oppugning the church are not only new declarations of former negatius maintained by their forefathers' against the church, but additions of new negatius and further apostasy: which infers as much division from their predecessors, as they had from the first faith of the church; and so they give me no security at all of adhering unto any, sigh I may still in prudence doubt of any, even the last separation, whether that be the unspotted spous of Christ or a new purification yet to be expected. And who can assure me that any such thing shall happen in my life time to be made use of by me, or that I shall ever see that glorious church not having spot or wrinkl or any such thing, holy and wthhout blemish, Eph. 5.27. unto which I may incorporate myself. For the last separation still exclaims against ' the former, as they did against the mother church, and that which is to come will do the like against this.  
Besides, these several new ways if they be well examined appear so to dash one against another, that although all of them strike expressy at the mother church, yet they wound her through one another's sides; and if any should believe them he shall not possibly find any thing to adher unto, unless he blindly close with the first he meets and condemn all others with the same folly he made choice of this.  
Our later Writers here in England, L. Faukland, Chillingworth and others, driv if I mistake not against Religion in general, and strike as much at any or all as at the Catholic. The Socinians they have sprung a mine under the church so deep and dangerous, that it makes the very battlements of heaven to shake, at least in the eyes of man; openly and without dissimulation oppugning the very divinity of the Son of God, & crucifying not so much the lord of glory, as the very lordship and glory of that lord, finally calling many things in question which former heretics left untouched. And now one may meet here in every town & villag with some or other blaspheming openly against the whole Gospel of Christ, such as hear them laughing at the conceit without any since at all or zeal of God's glory and their own final hopes. This is the fruit of thes new ways fresh wits and daily inventions, whereby the utter desolation is day by day consummated. Nemo repent fuit turpissimus, no man on the sudden was ever made stark naught; and be degrees doth every heresy how slight soever it be in the beginning, sink itself insensibly into atheism, containing most of Catholic faith in the first and imediat separation, till by degrees it all expire. This is the perfection Religion gets by the addition of new wits and the progress of innovation.  
The knowledge and experience of these mischiefs makes the Catholic church which is the wisest congregation hath ever been or possibly ever can be upon earth, to curb and stifl every wtsoever innovation as far as lies in her power at its first uprising how small soever it be, knowing full well that from such a littl egg is by littl and littl formed a dangerous adder, and this in time winged into a flying serpent.  MINISTER. 
Can you deny Sr that arts and sciences are all perfected by time? so is Religion likewise.  KNIGT. 
By your favour, you are much mistaken yourself in your similitude, or would at least beguile me. If religion were a human invention the consequence were good. For all inventions of man issuing from an imperfect principl, by the application of fresh hands and understandings superadded to the former, as new degrees of perfection in the principle, do receiv increase, and the arts are then come to the height when they have passed through so many hands and heads as be able to imprint so much perfection as the subject or matter is capable to receiv. So that all those heads and hands put together, as well that perfected as that first invented the science, do but make up one complete perfect principle of the art or invention resulting thence, which receives perfection proportionabl to the gradual acces of its original from whence it flows, and still as nature and industry perfects that, so does the art increase. Thus much I can grant. And if Religion were an human invention, the very same affection would be found in it also. 'tis here to be noted that we do not treat of Theology or scholastical learning, which is a science superadded to the primary principles of Religion; for this I shall grant to be humane as Physic or the civil law is, if it be taken precisely according to its conclusions and inferences without respect had to the principles whence it flows, and it may alter in its manner and method as they do. But I speak purely of those primary principles whereupon this Theology is founded, for these only are faith, and the unalterable doctrine of the Christian church.  
This Religion and Faith delivered unto us by God if the Gospel and Scriptures be true, differs as to our present purpose in two points from all other humane sciences. First, that it issued at first from a principle absolutely complete, secondly that there is not upon earth any principl already existing or possible to exist that can join with that principl to add to the perfection of the work.  
God who revealed and taught this faith is an infinite intellect and an understanding infinitely actuated, of such excessive perfection that it may easilier be admired and worshipped than expressed. And therefore the faith that issued from him must have its whole perfection at the first impression, and that infinite degrees more absolute than arts and sciences receive at the last; that comes forth absolutely pure and perfect, thes receiv their perfection such as it is in their progress. The further Religion proceeds from its first institution or revelation, the more 'tis sullied by the commerce of man, who's practice by deviating from its dictates fouls it as it were by contagion of the vessel: but if he shall once dare to interpose the results of his own judgement with those revealed articles, to deny any or add to any, mingling his own urine with that supernatural current, then does the water of life run troubled, muddy and corrupted, and ceases to be divine; nor is there any way to rectify it, but by having recourse to its first pure sours and according to that sampler to clarify it again. But human inventions arising at the first unpolisht and rough, if their perfection be to be measured are not called back to their first original, but examined rather by the nearnes to the last and final experiment. This is the first difference as concerning our purpose in hand betwixt divine faith and human sciences, Religion and arts, gods worship and man's works.  
The other is, that there is not upon earth any other principl which may add any thing to Religion's perfection, renew or alter it in any kind.  
Arts, sciences, garbs, languages and fashions of men, thes do expect their perfection from man's industry whence they had their first being: and humane industry and wit presumes rightfully to make several additions, alterations and changes in them according to the variety that is in men's fancies. These alterations be either perfections or at least so esteemed by men who introduce and receiv them, which is all one in human society; for amongst men that is the best which is in use and fashion as may be seen in languages garbs and fashions of attire which change continually & still for the best at least in vulgar opinion, till the fashions do insensibly wear out one another, and that return again by degrees which afortime was rejected, rendering that fashion contemptible by which itself had been in former times made vile. Thus man's thoughts and all the works of his hands run incessantly in a circular motion wearing out one another with a strange restlessness conveyed into things from the instability of fancy their first contriver, which can never stay, or remain in the fame state, but likes and dislikes, creates and destroys, does and undoes continually, and seems to be pleased with nothing but variety. And so all human workmanships of whatsoever kind they be, do meet with several fancies of men unto all which they are equally subject, and apt at pleasure by them to be controlled altered varied and subdud according tot he diversity of imaginations they meet withal.  
All this is apparently true, and lively set out by Solomon in his Eccelesiastes, where he affirms that there is nothing new under the Sun and that there is a season for every thing and a time for very purpose under heaven, a tim to break down and a tim to build, a tim to rend and a time to so? As if he should have said, man now fancies one thing, and then is pleased with the contrary, now he'll plant an orchard & then he'll turn it into a meadow, now he will build a house in one fashion and then alter it into another, and the like; so that all his works change and run in a circls, till his former rejected fancy perhaps return again, and seem to be some new business but indeed it is not: for all that is now brought up has been afortime rejected, as that which is now refused hath been liked of and will be so again; so that under the Sun is nihil novi no new thing; either in laws, states, governments, buildings, books, fashions languages or other thing invented or contrived by man. The very diet and company which seven years ago displeased us hath now lost its taste. Finally all that one man does either himself or some other like himself will undo it again, and mould it in another fashion, the works of man being totally subject to his humour, and not issuing at first from any self-sufficient, self-singular, self-eternall  intellect, are apt indifferently to follow the guidance of any thing that pertaks of that reason which gave them their first being.  
But religion is not thus subject to the understanding or fancy of any one man or all men together. For man's understanding and gods do not agree together in the same reason as two individuals in one species, and consequently with is dictated by the one that is infinitely perfect, self-singular and incomunicable, cannot be controlled by the other which is infinitely imperfect common and accidentally singularisd. A thing is naturally subject to his own cause or some thing at least unto which that principl itself is subject and nothing else; the works and will of man to man, the works, and will of God to god, the thoughts and actions of man both to man and God also to whom man himself is subject, but the word and will of God are so his, that they can not be in man's power who is a poor vassal both to God and his will and word too. What man hath once willed, not only God but man also may frustrate it by willing the contrary; but he cannot alter the will of God nor destroy any of his works: Towns he can overthrow, and Orcards and Gardens which himself hath planted; but where is the man can pull a star out of heaven, annihilat one of the elements or add another to those which God hath made.  
In all reason I think it is apparent to every one that the will and Word of the Almighty cannot be subjected to such a poor pitiful thing as man is: he must be led by it and not draw it to his pleasure, by adding or diminishing, by chopping and changing as he lists. Wherefore our B. Saviour, when some upon the doctrine they had heard him deliver, doubted and asked him with a quomodo, how can man forgive sins: and again others, how can he give us his flesh to eat: It is very observable that our Lord never went about to satisfy their curiosity or declare to them how or in what manner it might be done, it being indeed below the Majesty of God to give his vassal a reason of his will: but he singly repeated again his own assertion without showing the provability or possibility thereof; thereby giving us to understand that the institutions and will of God are not to be subjected to the understanding or man to be admitted or rejected according to that probability they shall carry in it, but humbly to be accepted with all submission and lowliness, as the will of that in finite suprem power unto which man's understanding and the whole creation is subjected. And therefore good S. Paul willed that every intellect should be captivated to the obedience of Christ, 2. Cor. 10.5. that is to say, subject to the dictamen of his faith and Religion as a captive slave to the will of his master; And consequently as a slave cannot control his master, so neither hath man's reason any right or power at all to change or alter add or diminish from Gods revealed will; holy scripture denounceing therefore anathema to such as should dare to do it against their duty and allegiance.  
All this being assuredly true, there can be no place in religion for new ways of fresher wits, for innovations, reformations, clearing, cleansing, additions, subtractions and other such like mouldings and workings upon it, as there is in arts and sciences and other such like effects of man's own contrivance. In these man's understanding is the workman, trades fashions laws languages and the like human inventions are the matter on which the fancy & understanding works; and the matter is naturally subject to the workman, the clay to the potter, the building to the architect, as reason and scripture teaches, Rom. 9.21. But in religion man's understanding is the clay and the will and word of God is the workman or potter to fashion and frame it to his pleasure. Man's inventions as clay are subject unto man's understanding as the potter, and again man's understanding as clay is subject to faith as the artificer: and the same reason that makes human inventions receive alteration from man, makes man's will to receive impressions from religion: So likewise on the other side Religion is no more in the power of man, then is the artificer in the hand of his clay, but hath absolute and full dominion over him, and every created intellect is fully in the power and captivity offaith.  
To conclude, the word and will and works of God are absoluty superior to every created thing, and not to be altered or innovated by man, nor to receive either diminution or increase from him: and consequently the religion he has revealed to the sons of men of his own free love and bounty is to remain sacred and untouched by any creature, how ever man may domineer over his own inventions to perfect and mend them at his pleasure. What is invented and made by man may by man be either bettered or made worse at his pleasure by what change he pleases: But God's works are altogether above his creatures reach, and his will is unch angable: He made all things perfect, and if he did not, who is he can add to their perfection. Children begot by men do by man's help and direction increase daily till they come to perfect age, but Adam created immediately by God was in all liklihood made at first in his full perfection and growth.  LA. 
I must Sr Harry cut of the thread of your discourse, that the Doctor who hath in civility forborn to interrupt you may have his time to speak.  VIC. 
And indeed that is fulfilled in me that is written: I held my peace even from good things, I was dumb with silence and my heart was hot wthin me lest I stood musting, the fire burned then spoke I with my tongue, Ps. 39  MIN. 
Well Sr Harry, this your discourse is all good and orthodox: but it makes so much to my purpose against yourself, that I could not myself have contrived a mor convenient battery against popery. For if you consider right, it rather confirms than destroys our reformations. Religion is without all doubt above man and not subject to any vassalage of his fancy. But you say with all and that truly, that what man does, man may undo: And there's the point. Now popery in the pure and formal sens and acceptation of the word signifys only that farthel of human additions superadded by the ignorance and superstition of men to the pure and sincer religion which the Lord taught us, and is therefore a sacrilege not to be suffered in the Christian world but to be taken away and severed from the sincerity of divin truth like chaff from the corn, so that our question is not, whether you may add unto faith, or we take from it; (with is added or taken away being granted on both sides to be a part of faith, and yet put in or out by our selus; for 'tis agreed upon by us both, that neither of thes things may be done without sacrilege) But whether it be lawful for us to reform, or take away from the body of divin faith with you have impiously added thereunto of your own and obtrud upon us as divin revelation being indeed but human superstition. This is the thing which Luther and Calvin began to do, and by other particular persons and parliaments is daily mor and more effected, not only without sacrilege, but with much commendation of piety, so that our reformations are indeed diminishments, not of God's religion but▪ of man's superstitions; we take from the church not the stones or rafters, but the rubbish mire and filth which is brought in by slovenly autiquity even burdensome to the purity of faith. Reforming religion we touch nothing at all we meddl with nothing that is Gods, but leaving all that untouched we cast out the ordur of human traditions whereby the fincerity of faith was defaced, and so we give to every one his own, that which in Caesar's to to Cesar, and that which is Gods to God: the legends of Damasus, Gregory, Anaclet, and I know not who, these being the dreams of his doting predecessors we cast forth to the Pope and popish to put up in their archius, the pure tabls of the law remaining in the ark of the Testament with uswch being once happily purged we purpose ever to conserv underfiled. If it be a cursed thing to add unto the word of God as Papists have done, 'tis blessedness to taken it away again.  VIC. 
I may say to thee sweet heart as David said to Abigail; Blessed be the Lord which sent the this day, and blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou who hast kept me this day from shedding of blood. For in very deed except thou hadst spoken this wise word (which shall suffice at this time) I had brought a reason that had destroyed the Papists at a blow, even every one of them that pisseth against the wall, 1 King 25.  KN. 
'tis the good Dr agreed on all sides, that nothing is to be added unto or taken from the word of God and our divine faith first delivered. You say also that your reformations taken away continually, some less some more, but only such things as be of human invention, affirming this action not only lawful but comendabl. This is the sum of your reply.  
That the articles of Christian religion rejected by the reformation, and by you called Popery be no human additions I should easily make it appear, if I should run over the whole body of them, and show from point to point that each parcel and particls thereof is equally ancient and divine; which would soon be evinced if the authority of those Scriptures you pretend to admit, the joint acknowledgement and practice of all times, and testimony of all antiquity, both counsels, fathers and doctors, and several other monuments left in the Christian world (which be greater than any we have to evince that William the Conqueror once reigned here in England) may sufficiently prov them to be such. But this course I intent not to enter upon, at least at this time, because we are but yet in generals; and besides this work is already done to my hands, so magisterially solidly & copiously by many renowned writers especially in the Latin tongue that it were superfluous to insist thereon, had I either time or place or will to do it. If you will not believe them, I have little hopes to prevail over so prodigious and obstinacy, which after such ample satisfaction given will say still that Catholic REligion so much as loose men listed 〈…〉 superstition and inventions of men.  
I have morover one general ru●… 〈◊〉 I reserv for another discourse, to demo●●●…re that that Catholic faith you call popery's ●s truly divine. For if you do but read your own antiquities or the records of any other Christian kingdom you shall find that the conversion of our own and all other nations from idolatry and paganism was effected by that Catholic faith which at one and the same time brought into the land both the news of Christ to the ear and the sight of the Crucifix to the eye, both the necessity of faith and the merit of works; both God in the fullness of time incarnate in the blessed virgin, and incorporate really in the Eucharist; both feast days and lents: both the pope's supremacy, and Priests power; the news of purgatory as well as hell or heaven; both contrition and penance; both God and his blessed retinu of Saints and Angels; both preaching and Sacrificing: shrins, altars, unctions, seven Sacraments, vows, Pilgrimages, and all whatsoever things the Catholic now believes or professes even to the least drop of holy water. And if that faith that hath the virtue and power to trample down idolatry, to chase away paganism and triumph over all the power of darkness be not divine, if this good tidings of truth benot the virtue of God and power of God, which is it? From this power of converting nations the Prophets of old magnified the word and Gospel of the Messiah; and S. Paul upon that account calls it the virtue and power of God; and yet this efficacy is only proper and peculiar to the Catholic Religion and non else. I shall only at this time give some general conjectures in a familiar discourse whereby we may be moved to believe with is indeed most cerainly true, that popery is no addition of man's, at least suspect that the report our reformers give of it sounds like a slander; leaving solider and more particular demonstrations for some other time.  LA. 
It will not displeas us to hear you speak; so that after all is done you will follow our counsel.  KN. 
I shall not be obstinate. But give me leave dear Lady, fully to vent my thoughts. For I conceive that a man is not capabl of better counsel, till he hath utterly discovered all whatever things detained him afortime in his  purpose, without any reservation at all. For even small relics of former courses lurking in the mind undiscovered, will still be egging him on to those ways again after he hath embraced better counsel & repine against the advice he hath taken as ruinous and prejudicial although it were in itself very behoofesull and good. So that the mind runs a hazard of lasting disquiet which enters upon a new course before the old be totally disliked.  VIC. 
I out with is Sr Harry, our with it fully, for so it is written, Counsel in the heart of a man is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out. Prov. 20.  MIN. 
Well Sr let not my argument be forgot, where by I proved that popery was a human art, and therefore in man's power to reform, nay 'tis commendable to cashier falsities.  KN. 
You said indeed so, but proved it not; not was it ever proved yet by any, though it be in all men's mouths, nor ever will be, so long as the world lasts. The misery is, Sr that men of your opinion, that is to say not catholic are all very little versed in our catholic authors especially such as be scholastical subtle and voluminous, love and care I mean wife and children haply not permitting such brain-consuming studies; so that when we come to discourse which you, 'tis as equally hard to persuade you as the vulgar of the parish, being all of you equally ignorant of the Church's ways and doctrine. And yet popery, a thing indeed unknown to you, must be jeered at, spoke against, preached against and haply writ against too, by some pert Gentleman that has never so much as heard a whole course of philosophy in his life (for a whole course either of philosophy or divinity is a thing now a days altogether unknown in both our universities) and that with so many impertinencies lies and slanders, such vanity fraud and cozenage, such insulting babble wresting of Scripture texts and falsifying of authors, that my heart has even startld within me to behold this shameless dealing.  
You say that all your reformations are but the taking away from the purity of Gospel the vain superstructurs of human superstitions, commonly called popery. This you say because other reformers said so before you, taking it one from another since Luther's time, and your child will say it from you, and so will every bastard in the parish. Nor does it avail us any thing by all manner of proofs to assert the divinity and truth of our doctrine.  
Although you will not read or cannot haply understand those sublim orthodox divins that would fully inform your judgement in this point, and convince you of an error no less notorious than dangerous. Yet me thinks there be many things obvious and familiar might render you wary and suspicious of danger in this your asserion, which concerns no les than your eternal salvation.  
As first, that you never examend it; you know you did not, I appeal to your own conscience. The Church hath ever been in possession of this her doctrine, and cannot possibly be dispossessed but by some evident demonstration, which I am sure the power of man and angel can never effect: if you insist on any other authority, as sacred scriptures or counsels, they are as sure hers, as any of your proper goods is your own. Nor is there I am confident any one text, I say not any one single text of Scripture if it be taken together with the whole body, scope and intention of the book whence 'tis drawn, that shall urg or proov any thing for any Reformation against the Church, this I am able to maintain against the whole world. And yet you are so far from considering or examining any of thes things, that you conclude upon bare hearsay or report without either authority or demonstrative reason against the doctrine of the Church whereof she hath been time out of mind in possession: and all this slighnes is used in a matter of the highest concernment in the world, as if the talk were only de lana Caprina. Me thinks it should fright you to think, that if your assertion should be falls as for aught you know it is, then are you certainly guilty of the accursed sacrilege of diminishing from the word and will of God.  
Again you know and do acknowledge that you have substracted not only some part but the most and greatest parts of that religion was found planted in the land in Harry the eights days. Pray tell me, that whole mass or body of practical doctrine that is now cut off in this year 1655, was it known in King Charles, James, or Queen Elisabeths' days to have been all of it popish additions? To this I am sure peopl of several reformations will give several answers. Independency the last and purest reformation will affirm it, but protestancy the first and oldest apostasy will deny it; nor will the Protestant endure that his children should judge him as he condemned his mother Church, or reform his fallibility as he rebelled against the infallibility of his parent. And yet the Independent proceeds consequently to those very principles which the protestant laid for his own revolt; namely the fallibility of men, the solesufficiency of scriptures, and the Spirit of God therein assisting his elect to the discovery of truth: Nor can the Independent be blamed for any thing, but for striking thes principls further hom than the amphibian protestant did. This I am fully assured of, that the Protestant is not abl to bring any one argument for himself against the Independent but what he borrows from the Catholic church, and which being admitted and pressed home will destroy all his own protestancy, that is to say all thoss negative whereby he differs from the Catholic, and which he hath striven thes hundred years to defend; and therefore it behous him to take heed with he does: for the Independent is quick and resolute and as well versed in his principles as himself, and able I am sure with the Protestants own grounds to convince him neither to be fish nor flesh nor yet good red herring as the proverb speaks, neither sound Catholic nor pure reformed.  
The Catholic doctrine is all fixed and permanent, and therefore every reformation can find what to deny of it, but they can never all agree together with and how much thereof to affirm; the latter still denying more of the Catholic faith than the former had don alltho it proceed upon the same principles with it. The Church will easily make good all her affirmatius against you all, so soon as you shall agree all together how much you will deny. But so long as you jar one amongst another and speak contraries, it is not possible to stop all your mouths at once. In a word all the changes made by the Independent are either legal just and religious, or else protestancy itself is an unjust, illegal and impious apostasy: for if all men be obnoxious to error, and the Scripture sole judge and guide of faith; by with right can the Protestant oblige men to her tenets further than they approov of them by the test of Scripture which they have in in their own hands: if those principles be falls with with justice did the Protestant himself revolt from the Catholic upon those sole grounds? Nay the Independent is far more honest and excusabl than the protestant, for he prefers his judgement only before a Church that professed herself to be fallible; but the protestant rebelled against an infallible guide and one that professed herself such. And although the Catholic Church were not infallible, yet professing herself infallible she has that cause of blaming the revolting protestant, which the protestant can never have against the Independent: for an infallible Church may well expect an universal subjection; whereas the protestant professing herself fallible cannot in modesty either oblige peopl to her cannons, or dislik their freedom of judgement however dissenting from her own. And so she must needs have the Presbyterian excused; and the Presbyterian he cannot do otherwise than commend the Independent, as the nimbler work man. For sith both of them went about to mend the Protestant reformation, and correct the dictates of that fallible mistress, the Independent did his work more speedily and fully than the other, and so indeed may be maliced by him as the better workman but never blamed. Finally, if this last reformation of Independency be indeed an abolishing of all relics of popery hanging upon the Protestant and not clearly cashiered by the Presbyterian; then does the Catholic and Independent stand like extremes, having the intermediat reformations of Protestancy and Presbytery and the like between then two, as white and black be the two extremes of colours, between which are red blue green and the like borrowing their existency from the nature of both in a several mixtur: And all other reformations interjacent are diversified in themselves according as they do mor or les partake of the Catholic positius, and Independents negatius. These two claim an absolute liberty of conscience in their own territories, the Catholic a freedom of the Church's judgement, the Independent of his own particular. And either all is true that the Catholic affirms, or all the independent denys.  MIN. 
I mean not to interpose myself in the business of reformations, let them be as they will; but do maintain only in the general that reformation of popery is good & lawful, & not executed without the special commission instinct & Spirit of Christ.  VIC. 
So it is written, Without me ye can do nothing, Jo. 15.  KN. 
And I likewis do only in general wish you to consider yet two or three things: whereby you may suspect this business not to be of God, and consequently the whole work of reformation unlawful.  
Thes special commissions do ever bring with them some peculiar seals and letters patents such as heaven uses to send to mankind: as be signs, wondrous operations and miracles, without which man cannot in reason desert his station. Reformers had none of thes to show. But I will not insist hereon (although it be a worthy and weighty consideration) because 'tis copiously done by others. I say then  
First it would seem strange to a reasonable man and a thing of much suspicion, that all reformations are but negativ abolitions of the ancient Catholic religion without any positiv institution at all. 'tis an odd kind of dressing a garden still to be grubbing up trees, and never plant any in the place; nor is it likely God should send workmen into his vineyard only to destroy and pull up.  
Again reformers do all of them equally pretend to be sent from God with an extraordinary commission to enlighten the world. And yet they all hitherto did their work to the halfs, keeping still as much popery as they cast away. God's extraordinary messengers use not to do their work imperfectly, or remain themselves in that error they were sent on purpose to correct Martin Luther that extraordinary light of the world did if we may believe the succeeding reformations both liv and die in as much popery as himself abolished. If popery be so damnable, as both Luther and other reformers cry out and say it is, I should think that half a score swinging articles of popery are enough to sink a man: and so much Luther must keep still if we believe the following reformation, and this detained no les if we may credit the third. The purity of these times found so much popishnes still hanging on Protestants skirts, that they thought it worth the hazard of their lives to brush it off. And some think that even these purest are not themselves absolutely free from it; and surely never will be, so long as the Bible which is the Pope's book and sent immediately from him into this island, is yet in their hands.  
Are all these reformers sent from God? why then did none of them do their work to the full, till at the end of a full age the Independent stepped in to accomplish it, if yet he hath himself done the deed to the utmost.  
Why should I think ill only of the Catholic whom Luther railed against, and not as well hate Luther whom Calvin condemned; or judge Calvin whom the Protestant church of England censured in many things and forsook; or detest also the Protestant Church which the purity of thes times have destroyed. Sith we be all so much severed from one another, whence is it that we all conspire to hate, condemn and rail against the Catholic Church, having as much cause to inveigh against one another and let her alone, as to rail against her alone and applaud one another. This is a shrewd sign we are all rebels to that one Church and have no truth amongst our selus. For one truth is opposite to twenty falsehoods and these falsehoods however they be contrary to one another, that one primary truth still stands against them all. Catiline and Cethegus and the other conspirators against Rome their mother City could fall out one amongst another, though they jointly resisted her, and she as indifferently confronted them all.  
Besides, these reformers must needs be liars all of them if we may believe any of them. For as they did most vehemently inveigh against that part of popery which themselves rejected; so did they tooth and nail defend the purity of that portion they still retained, which by the succeeding reformers was deeply censured and condemned: And so from the very first to the last, they still condemned one another for with they retained, as the Church of God condemned them all for with they rejected. Who shall unfold this riddle or tell me in which reformation the truth lies? Surely in non of them, if by the mouth of two witnesses a truth may be established: for there is ever the Catholic Church and one reformation against the judgement of any other reformation; & every sect hath still the Church against her for one, and some other sect if not all other reformations besides.  
Are all thes men sent from God for one and the same thing, & yet all fail in doing it, and all condemned by one another in the deed? Still with any one of them casts away is popery, and what he keeps is the sincere word and will of God, though not only the Church that censures them all together but even all other reformations say the contrary.  
So that if we put all judgements together there will result thus much? That the Catholic on the one side, & all sectaries of several opinions on the other, they be all Papists; and differ but secundum magis & minus: So that the Roman is a Catholik Papist, and all the rest be heretic Papists, but Papists all. For every sect is condemned by his fellows of some popery, and the Church as the source of all. And indeed all sects do retain some thing more or les of that religion and faith which our land received at first from the pape, and wtsoever positive doctrine they still keep they had it onginally from him. At least they keep all of them the Bible either whole or in part, which is the great book of the pope which he ever sends with his missioners (since he ordered and canonised it) to any nations conversion, as conformable to the great rule of Christian faith which is tradition. And consequently if the Papist be a child of Antichrist, all sectaries are no other, so far as they be Christian or have any thing of Christianity amongst them: only with this difference, that the mark of the beast, if he be a beast, is less in some than it is in others; but 'tis in the for heads of all so many as be baptised and believe in Christ, by his means and missioners, and by the Sacraments and precepts they had originally from him.  VIC. 
The Lord shield us from the fiend of darkness! the pope upon my forehead! the Bible the pope's! and all we Papishes! confute him husband some way or other if this be true, he'll not fear texts at all.  LA. 
S. Harry you have brought things about very strangely. Can you think ever to persuade us that we have any thing of popery in us?  KN. 
Assuredly you have so much as is not yet clipped of by reformation, be it more or les: And this discourse I have fallen upon insensibly, to mitigat the strange rancour against Catholic religion which people conceiv by contagion of custom, and not any true knowledge they have thereof; and the pleasing opinion each one fosters of the reformation himself is part of.  
Take the four general opinions that be now in England; the Catholic, the Protestant, Presbyterian and independent: Consid o seriously and you shall find that as they be antecedent in time, so still the succeeding is but a deficiency from the foregoer, and the last the greatest negation of the positions laid by the first; yet still what he holds positively he hath it from him; and the first which is the Catholic had all his whole positive faith from the Pope, as himself professes and our own histories witness; part whereof was cut of by the Protestant, as the Presbyterian after him took away some things which the Protestant still retained, and the Independent others which the Presbyterian kept.  
He is very ignorant in history that discerns not by his reading, how the Catholic now existent in England retains universally all the points of faith which were brought hither into England at its conversion from paganism by S. Austin and other good children of blessed S. Bennet sent hither to that purpose by Pope Gregory eleven hundred years ago; concerning priests, altars, sacrifices, the real presence, merit of good works, consecrations, pennances, purgatory, lents, pilgrimages, pope's supremacy and the rest to the least iota of with they then received. Nor hath he any parcel of faith either over or under with he received then, so that the Catholic is a papist in print, and a legitimat child of that venerable pastor.  
A thousand years after the Saxes or English-mens conversion, and the unanimous profession of the Catholic faith all that while, in an unluky how'wt rises Luther who having been himself born and and bred up in the bosom of the Church through the instigation of Satan and his two instruments pride and lust apostatised from the Church and made a reformation as he called it, whereunto the worst of people at first adhered, although now both wise and honest minded people go along with it, not so much by their own choice as unfortunate custom. This protestancy took away at once almost three parts of the Churches practical doctrine, retaining the speculative. Within the compass of ten years, it had run into several divisions or subreformations in Germany, Holland, Switzerland and Geneva. Upon Harry the eights schism and afterward these people of several Reformations come flocking over into England, by who's several directions to pleas all parties was made up that miscellan of the English protestancy, by rejection of several points of the Catholic faith then in our land, some according to Luther, others according to Calvin, Swinglius & the rest, together with an establishment of an apish prelacy in stead of the Catholic one (which had been overthrown) for the security of the state and of the fond Church they had then set up; the other few remainds of our Catholic faith now wholly dismembered, yet standing as the base of this humane superstructur.  
Under this Protestant prelacy differing from all other reformations in the world bred the Puritan who was so checked & kept under all the reign of K. james, that when he came to be teemd forth, by strength of nature and multitude of seed he was born double and came two forth together, the younger brother supplanting the elder and thrusting himself into his place even in that instant that the elder had eat himself a passage through his Protestant mothers bowels. This was the Presbyterian and Jndependent both rejecting something of that had been conveyed to them by the Protestant, but the Independent more than the other. But what either of them kept he received it by the Protestant, as the Protestant had done from the Catholic the sole universal Professor of the whole Christian faith.  
Now than the whole body of Christian faith and doctrine kept by the Catholic, as it was wholly received at first from the pope the general father of the Christian church, so must it needs be all indifferently Papistical upon that account, and not that part only which a Reformer dislikes and calls so; and consequently every parcel thereof retained by any Reformer is as properly Papistical as with he rejects, and although he calls it not so, yet 'tis so styled by another Reformer who likes not to retain it as he does; and for no other reason but because as it issued, so is it maintained and practised by the popish Church; which reason holds good as well in him that likes it as him thy likes it not.  
By this rule it will follow irrefragably that all the four professors be papists, as also be all others who profess Christianity upon the face of the whole earth, either in whole or part, aswell those that keep their whole faith entire and respect the Pape, as they that retain only some part and defy him: for ingratitude and pride can exempt no man from the denomination so long as he still believes or practices any part of that Christianity has been handed to him from the Pope and Popish Church, as all men in England I am sure do; and to avoid all further cavil 'tis solely of them I now speak.  
If four or five generations of men arising from one stock should be all of them shorter by the head one than another, the first generation completely resembling the father, the second les by the head than he, and the third yet less by the head than the former his immediate progenitor, so to the last in like manner. It would be ridiculous for the last descendants because they want much of the person & statur of the first original or stock, to deny that they have therefore any thing of him or from him, & speaking against those several inches they have not, at the same time to magnify the few inches which they have and blaspheme him from whence they have received them. And yet this is directly the case of all reformers and reformations, to boast of the Christianity they keep and vilify that part they reject, as superstitious and popish; whereas both with they reject and with they keep did descend equally and indifferently from the Popish or Catholic Church. And if our English sectaries should render up to the Pope and Popish Church all they have had from her, I do not know any one positiv point of Christianity, speculativ or practical they should have remaining except that harmonious song of mellifluous Robin red breast Preserv us Lord.  
Thus much may suffice to show that all England be Papists, some Catholic Papists other heretic Papists, but Papists all. Sith every part of Christian faith brought altogether in one entire body of doctrine by a messenger of Pope Gregory to the English at our conversion from paganism was equally papistical, equally received in the Catholic church, and with the like indifferency communicated to our land from her Head and Pastor. And the having of it more or less makes some less papists than others, but not no papists Even as in music if a sem brief be a full time, a minnom though it be but half so much is a notion of time, so is likwis a crotchet though it be but half a minnom, and a quaver which is but half a crotchet: so that a minnom is half a sem brief, a crochet the fourth part, and a quaver though it be but the eight part, yet a part it is and nothing else. Even so be thes four several religions in England every one of them either complete popery or part of it, the Catholic as it were a seem brief, the protestant a minnom, the Presbyterian a a crochet and the Independent a quaver, And truly to keep one piece of popery and reject others delivered by the same hands, and upon the very selfsame grounds, seems to me neither a safe course nor yet a reasonable proceeding. For the whole stream of Christian doctrine was delivered unto us as issuing indifferently from a divin original; and if this report be true, no man may tampar or meddl at all in that sacred issue of divin will, as I have already shown: if falls, 'tis all equally to be rejected, and paganism or atheism to succeed in its place.  
But our reformers will have that to be popery or human which any of them rejects without ever rendering a reason thereof, to satisfy any moderate and indifferent man; sigh what ever they say against any one thing may be as well applied to any other. Nor is religion like philosophy to be held by the propability it carries in our understanding, for than it were not faith but reason, nor should our understandings be otherwis captivated to divin revelations that to human positions, or subjected to God more than to man. And yet again, if probability should carry it, a wise judicious man that is unprejudiced in his judgement shall I am comfident find more difficulty to believe the very history of the Bible than any articls of the Catholic religion rejected by reformers; and as much reason to keep all articles as any.  
But sigh reformers will have that popery which any of them rejects, & that he retains pure Gospel; I for my part grant both. But then I make no difference at all betwixt popery and pure Gospel: nay the Gospel is so far pure as it is conformable to popery & the traditional doctrine of the Catholic church, which is the rule and square of all preach, Writings, Letters, Sermons, Epistls, Gospel's andall.  
And therefore that any reformation in religion is a purification of the Gospel from popery taken in your sens, that is to say from human inventions superstitions and errors, this I must flatly deny; or that the popery men exclaim against is any such thing. And as I can never myself be persuaded to the contrary, so me thinks I should persuade even you my dear Lady and you also Mr Parson with your witty bedfellow to be of my mind.  VIC. 
Who I? God forbidden Let them cleav unto Baal that list, I & my people will follow the Lord, as it is written in Scripture. For I will never believe but this scripture came from God and not from the Pope as you talk Sr Harry, from heaven and not from Rome.  LA. 
By your favour sweet Mistress, I have heard say that S. Marks Gospel was writ-ten in Rome, first and originally in Latin, I find also in my Bible that some of Paul's Epistls were written and dated from Rome, as those he wrote to the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, the second to Timothy, that to Philemon and haply that to the Hebrews which was dated from Italy. And the Epistle which was written on purpose to the Romans, was assuredly carried to Rome before it was brought hither, and must come thence to us. So that if they did come from heaven, it seems Rome is either heaven itself or in the way twixt us and heaven, for they were there first either brought thither or written there; and thence come over into England and other countries.  
But to turn to you Sr. Harry, me thinks you are now too confident, and seem to put on a refolution too much opposite to the hopes I have of you, and consequently to the hopes you may have of me, for I cannot love an infidel as a friend much les as a husband.  VIC. 
So indeed Madam it is written. Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for we fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousnes, or with communion hath light with darkness.  KN. 
I begged the favour Madam to utter my mind freely, and I think you granted it. For 'tis with an i'll affected mind as with a diseased body; neither can be made whole till they they have purged themselves of their ill humours.  MIN. 
I am ready Sir to prove from point to point, that all we have in our reformation rejected is the pure inventions of men, whereof the principal is that tyrant of Rome that Babylonian Antichrist the Pope.  VIC. 
The whole Book of Revelations was made against that Beast. Let me but read six or seven Chapters, and you will be affrighted I warrant you. Now he rises out of the Sea, then tumbles out o'th' clouds, then ascends from the deep pit, on a fiery red Horse, or black horse, with seven horns or ten horns, accompanied with armed locusts death and dragons.  KN. 
We will not descend unto particulars as yet. Giv me leave now only to tell you in general, that those rejected parcels of our ancient Catholic faith cannot in any probability be thought human inventions.  
For the Roman Catholik church whence all our religion issued, doth own them indifferently with the rest for integral parts of the Christianity she at first delivered. And reformers never yet agreed together with or how many of those parcels were human and upon that account to be rejected. And yet if they had had any certain knowledge either from God or man, either by history or grounded reason, they would not with so much disagreement amongst one another have by degrees cast off some one part some another of that religion they received at first altogether upon one & the same motiv of the Revealers infallibility. This disagreement of reformers as it cannot but bring themselves if they would but open their eyes into some suspicion of uncertainty; so to me unto whom uncertain grounds of faith are no grounds at all, they are a sufficient conviction of error & fraud.  
Again, these presented popish superstitions and human inventions rejected even by Protestancy were both very many and very weighty, at about the real presence, apostolical traditions, the papes supremacy merit of good works, sacrifice of mass, sacramental absolution, use of images, invocation of Saints, seven sacraments, vows, shrines, priesthood and the like, even in a manner the whole body of practical religion. Thes if they be additions of man must either be ignorantly taken up by the people, or imposed upon them by their prelates. As for the peopl, if nothing at the beginning had ere been taught them but only to believe in Christ, it is not possible morally speaking that such things as thes should ever come into their heads: but 'tis altogether and absolutely impossible that they should be taken up universally by all people of the earth together, and that not by parcels as now they are cast away; but the whole body of them together with such unity and consent as hath been ever found in all Christian kingdoms of the world, none of the peopl in any kingdom gain saying their fellows, nor Prelates resisting.  
If you say, the Prelates imposed them: This must be done either by violence or fraud, either by strong hand or some insensibl introduction. Such main weighty tangible points as thes which were to be brought not only into peopls heads but hands, and daily and hourly to be practised, can never be thought by any sensibl man to have been insensibly introduced or insensibly received or insensibly liked of, with so much prejudice of carnal eas and sensuality; I say with so much prejudice of sensuality as fastings, watch, almsdeeds, justiciary satisfaction, vows of poverty obedience and chastity, pennances, cloisturs and religious monasteries must needs bring upon the world.  
For the same reason violence offered to the people whether at the same time or several ages in such businesses of main importance, of great weight, and of much servitud could never pass so smoothly or be so tamly admitted by all Christian kingdoms, whereof some be at deadly feud, opposition and war with one another, others of a nature more refractory and not so careful to keep with they have once received, some sooner some later converted, so that no nois should be made thereof, no course taken to resist it, no dislike of the doctrine, no difformity of belief.  
He can never believe this who knows either the nature of the world, or the disposition of the Catholic Church. The world is naturally tumultuous, impatient of new yokes, apt to insurrections, slow to admit a restraint, and no les prone to omit neglect and reject with is servilely imposed upon them, especially if it be done without just authority and contrary to peopls inclinations.  
The Catholic Church on the other side he that knows her and hath beheld her proceed from age to age, may easily discern how ticklish and scrupulous she is, how she startls at the very news of the least innovation or new fangldnes in any of her peopl, which if it do increase how small so ever the matter may be in itself, the Catholic body rises up against it & will not rest till by a council it be condemned. This is the motiv of calling so many counsels as have been since Christianity first began, and of the severity there used even in some things a man would hardly deem considerable. It would even delight a man reading the history of the church in learned Baronius and others, to see the Church's industry and watchfulness on all occasions to prevent new fangldnes: the labour and diligence of her counsels; their faithfulness study and exactness in examining, discussing, refuting upstart opinions; their uprightness and wisdom in defining & confirming the ancient Catholic doctrine against all innovations according to that general oracle of all Synods Nihil innovandum, veterum traditionibus standum; and lastly the severe penalties inflicted by the church upon the authors of innovation if they did not humbly recant their error, so that all things considered aright, 'tis as impossible for human innovations to incorporate with the body of anicent Catholic faith as for wood or stone to concorporate with the flesh of an animal.  
You would M●. Dr. save me the labour of persuading this truth any further, if you would pleas to call to mind, how several Reformers have taunted at the scrupulosity of papists in this kind, yea and inveighed too against their severity; telling us that popish counsels are so scrupulously severe that they question, meddle with and censur things that are of little or no concernment at all in Religion and oftims pure Philosophy; that they condemn good books written by their own people and those men of sincerity and conscience one can hardly tell why or wherefore; that they so enslave excellent wits that they cannot invent or utter any thing that may relish never so little of novelty; that they judge the faithful and cast them out of the church even for small supposed deviations; that they set up inquisitions to prevent and suppress liberty of conscience even with un-Christian cruelty. And they tell us several stories of the Catholic churches scrupulosity in this kind: of Heliodor put out of his bishopric for writing his feigned Romance; of Virgilius displaced in like sort for teaching that there were Antipodes, an opinion in those days new and unheard of; of a Printer that together with the loss of his place suffered a heavy mulct for altering one letter which had been falsely transcribed in that parable of the woman that lost a drachma and swept her house, & evertit domum; the Printer for evertit made it everrit as it ought to be, and forfeited say they his office for his pains.  
It is possible that so much curiosity, so much scrupulosity and tenderness should so tamely admit of an insupportable weight of popery without any disturbance at all, nay with the liking and universal consent of all men. God Catholics are as tender of their faith as of the apple of their eye; so that if a friend or kinsman should once take up any novelties therein, we are scandalised at it, rise up against him & cannot but show our aversion and dislike even where nature and custom had united us. Nor can any one of our countrymen broach an heresy, but all sound catholics will hate him for it and rise up against him: foreigners if it ever come to their ears will detest him much more; how ever he may draw some disciples after him, such light capricious people as will be led away with every wind of doctrine: and some such there have ever been who forgetful of God and their own safety will leave the rock of the church whereupon they are built to follow the new fangldnes of a proud instable mind; the whole Catholic body still resisting and condemning the insolence. This is a quality as evident in good catholics' as that a man hath a nose in his face, nor needs it proof.  
How then can it be thought that whole Kingdoms and several nations should submit to the judgement of one proud deviatour, be he never so witty ov eloquent; as for example all the Prelates of Spain, Italy, Germany, France, East and West-Judys, Asia, in a word all over the world, to one haughty self conceited English Priest deviating from the ancient received faith of his ancestours, without any resistance dislike or noise. It is not a thing by a reasonable man so much as to be imagined. Nor hath a prelate in one country any more power over the prelate's of another than wit and eloquence can afford him, which reason and experience shows can never suffice for the bringing of all mankind into captivity to itself without resistance and clamour. The chief Priest is the fittest to offer this kind of violence: and yet how little he is able to prevail in an opinion contrary to the Churches universal tradition appears sufficiently in the fact of pope john the twenty second, who propounding to the consideration of some Christian universities the negativ of the souls fineal beatitud till the general judgement, effected no more but a commotion of the Christian world against himself. And the thing is remembered and spoke of to this day. Wherefore neither covin nor violence can be of any avail to the introducing of innovations by any person wtsoever contrary to the churches custon and tradition.  
Deal sincerely with me, and take any one point of those many which English Catheliks' hold at this day, mass, pilgrimages, vows, penance, absolution, real presence or with you will; and tell me in which of the King's days between William the conqueror and Harry the eight it was first taken up here or brought into the land: look still further and see yourself if the same was not believed and practised by the Saxons even from their first conversion until K. William the conquerors days: go forward and you shall find that the religion the Saxons received from Pope Gregory did both in that point and all others agree with with the Britons had received two or three hundred years before: This I am sure you shall find if you be not wanting to yourself. How then can you ever hope to persuade me that all or any of these be innovations, whereof you can tell me neither the motiv, nor the occasion, nor the time they were introduced, nor the person by whom nor any event that followed thereon. 'tis an argument of desperate wretchedness to cast away all practical religion upon no other account than the bare affirmation that 'tis popish superstition and popish inventions.  
No Sir the inventions of men in matters of religion cannot be so universal in men and Kingdoms of differing humours and at enmity oftimes with one another: they cannot be so imutable in so many alterations of states and governments as are and have been in the world: they cannot be so permanent, being both human and unlawful; for as divinity and essential truth are therefore eternal and unchangeable because such; so humanity and falsehood must needs decay and moulder away; contrariorum contraria est ratio. It was a golden observation that of Gamaliel a great doctor of law among the jews. If this counsel be of men it will come to naught, if of God ye cannot frustrate it, Act. 5. You see by the alterations that happen in human inventions, that 'tis much for men's conceits or fancies to stand unch angd for one age or two: & all Reformations are by their continual vicissitudes convinced to be human counsels and works of men: whereas each parcel of the Catholic faith even those you call popish additions have apparently stood permanent for eleven hundred years together, as all men know or may know if they will but read their own history; and by this imutability they are convinced to be rays of that unchangeable essence and truth which is eternally the same.  
But if we consider the promises of God to conserv his church in all truth, and for that end to be ever with it even to the world's consummation; and that it is now granted on all hands that the church hath not been visibly existent in all times and places, but only in and by the Roman Catholik: then will it appear altogether impossible that human inventions and falsities should ever be able to thrust in to that church or go for truths.  
Nor is it les improbable that the immaculate spous of Christ, wise, spotless and unblamable should by an adulterous mixturs of errors destroy herself. We see that an ordinary secular state, be it Monarchy, aristocrasy or others will never admit of rules that be quite opposite to those in which she was first founded, wherwth she has been fed and strengthened, and by which she has triumphed and flourished. And if she do it, she destroys herself. Which although it may happen to worldly states built upon human prudence for to do; yet I do no doubt but that your selus and all men will grant me that the church of Christ was first raised upon divine principles, and settled upon the wisdom of God unto eternal permanence. And yet if she should admit of all these mixturs she would cease to be spotless and unblamable, and consequently cease to be herself. In all things much of ill corrupts the good; but Religion if it be not absolutely sincere is not properly religion. For there is something of good even in paganism and mahometism, which no man calls religion but superstition: the denomination following the greater and worse part.  
Reading Mr Chillingworths book not long ago, I could not but smile in myself to see that flourishing Hixius Doxius so to play dance and triumph as he does quite through his book upon a supposal himself never proved nor any yet for him; namely that the Roman church had admitted errors in itself. We, saith he, saw and beheld to our grief that the Roman Church had tainted herself with errors; we called upon her to reform, she would not do it in her whole body; we therefore being part of that body provided for our own safety, we reformed ourselves, which was lawful necessary and just both before God and man. This discourse in substance, for I have not the book now by me to set down just punctually his words, is over and over repeated in his book, and is indeed one of the chief ropes whereupon that fanatic funambulo dances. Such empty words may beguile others, not me dear Lady, they prevail nothing with me Mr Parson, they do not indeed nor ever will Ms Persona.  LA. 
Come Sr Harry I hope we shall have you in a better mind to morrow. We are now called in to dinner. Let's go.  MIN. 
Let us in Sr Harry, there's the fittest time and place in my mind to talk of religion. I never found that dry discourses wrought any great effect.  VIC. 
Madam a word with you now they are gone in. I marvel your Lap. would talk of to morrow, I never read of any one in my life that was converted to morrow. Is it not written, to day if you will hear my voice? Ps. 95. Had you given me occasion I would have done the deed to dav even myself alone.  LA. 
How.  VIC. 
I would have fallen a dropping of texts with him and kept him close to the word of God. I am sure where he has one text for him I have a thousand, and where he has ten, I have ten thousand, according as 'tis written, One of them shall chase a thousand & ten of them put ten thousand unto flight, Deut. 32. I like not human discourse, 'tis tedious to me: I have filled all my bible with dogs ears for good Sir Harry's sake, and could not come in handsomely to use any of them all this while by reason of his redious oratory. Indeed I needed not to have bend down any one leaf at all; opening my bible at random I should be sure to meet with something against popery; every chapter every verse cries it down. Open it Madam, and you shall find so much. Read. The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans. Paul a servant of jesus Christ, Rom. 1. Look you there. The Epistle not a legend, of Paul not of Peter, the Apostle not the Pope, to the Romans not to the Romish, papish or popish, he would never write to them I warrant him. O the father! I'm even as full of scripture as a new laid egg, as they say. I could confute Sir Harry, before dinner come up yet as near as it is.  LA. 
Sir Harry is not here now.  VIC. 
Although he be not. Well Madam there comes not a dish to the table, but I'll have a text for it, from the very first dish of porredg to the apples and cheese.  LA. 
Well, well.  VIC. 
Madam I could without the help of scripture have mentioned twenty innovations that Papists have made in the world had I been encouraged to speak.  LA. 
What I prithee.  VIC. 
The sect of Quakers lately brought up here in England is I think an innovation in religion. And this was instituted by two friars and two jesuyts, as Mr Prinne witnesseth in a book of his lately set forth for that very purpose. For thou Mr Prinne be said to be a man of an ill hearing, yet is that defect recompensed by a fair length of language; his text is so orthodox that the Ministers have preached upon it all England over, and illustrated it by pretty similitudes; as of those nine and thirty papists that flew over out of Lincoln shire into Norfolk amongst a flock of wild geese to pick up their corn, for which crime their houses were ransacked; of seven other papishes that taught children to speak with their elbows: against which innovation of nature our Ministers inveighed bitterly in their pulpits; of three more papists that walked in the air all over the city of London passing from steeple to steeple at a step, and pissed fire as they went upon the top of houses; which our Ministers were stark mad at, & preached violently against them out of the Revelations; saying that if they were not rooted out of the land they would sindg all their caps & fire their hairy scalps, as they stood in their pulpits. Many other pretty remembrances they had, which have been recorded by Mr Piniero and Prinne, Mr john an oaks & Will styles: whereat people beat their breasts, shaked their heads & cried Out upon these wicked papishes, 'tis pity they are suffered to live.  LA. 
I believe papists will not own these things.  VIC. 
They must own them whether they will or no: printing and preaching, press and pulpit, Mr john an oaks & Mr Prinne cannot utter any thing but truth. Innovations! papists do nothing else but make innovations; they cannot eat or drink, or sleep but the must do it; and mischief is their very life.  LA. 
God mend all.   

SECOND DIALOGUE.  LA. 
I have Sr Harry brought you here again your souls phesitian, to understand the symptoms of your disease, and apply an agreeable remedy thereunto.  KN. 
I shall Madam as well as I may both declare my sickness, and respectfully receiv his remedy.  LA. 
Come doctor you look blithe upon't to day, I take it for a good sign.  VIC. 
And I am glad for sooth to see my husband cheerful; for sadness as it is written dries up the bones, Pro. 17.  MI. 
I bring you good news Sir Harry. The work of reformation we persuade you unto is as easily effected, as 'tis to cast of a heavy cloak in a burning midsommers' day. All popish practices as I in order shall name them to you, do but you in the same method reject them, and you shall in one half hour become a Protestant, in three quarters a Presbyterian, in a whole hour an Independent, and so be reform at your leysur and with eas.  KN. 
You say not all this while, what shall guide me in this action.  MIN. 
The word of God that guides you Sr to the will of God.  KN. 
The means and end of his motion being coincident, a man may well hope for an undisturbd tranquillity in the period.  MIN. 
With can disturb you Sr being built upon the rock of the bible, with more or les hold thereon according to the nature of the reformation.  KN. 
Which reformation has the best hold.  MIN. 
Let them look to that, I'll not meddle with those disputes.  KN. 
I have both read and heard of the rock of the Church, but the rock of the bible you are the first man I know ever used the phrase.  MIN. 
The Church and her doctrine be all one: the Church's doctrine and scripture is the same; and so the rock of the church and rock of the bible cannot be two several things.  VIC. 
Well said sweet heart. This is now a little above me. But so it is written, The husband is above his wife and she shall be under and subject to him, Gen. 3.  MIN. 
The sum of all is; Betake yourself to the pure scripture. And 'tis enough.  KN. 
There is much talk of Scripture, and all the sectaries have ever risen though never so many or never so opposite one to another have still pretended it; nay the devil urged his temptation with a scriptum est, Matt. 4. so that I fear the proposal of this either means or rest will prove but waist of time.  
Give me leave to tell you, that the messenger of the Gospel of peace who by a mission from pope Eleutherius converted the Britons from paynisme to Christian faith in the second age of the church, and the other from pope Gregorius who reduced the Saxes or English in the fift gave them all their religion as well explicitly in all the articles of their Christian faith, as implicitly in the bible they delivered into their hands, wherein those articles by incidental occasion lay casually couched. Now to take away all those explicit articles dressed and prepared already to our hands, and give us the bible, is the same thing as to take from men all the gold and silver already coined with so much care and industry of princes, and show them a mine whence such things may be digged, without affording either work men skilful in the art or instruments for the purpose.  
Imagine in such a case with disorder and confusion would happen, when thousands of people are gathered together about a mountain; none versed in digging or fitted with instruments for it, none accustomed to the hollows of deep earth, none skilled in finding out the vein, none expert in discerning the oar, or to melt it into bullion or stamp it into coin. And yet all of them equally conceited as undertaking ignorance uses to be, and indifferently judging and condemning the works of each other. It cannot otherwise happen in such a case, but that some should tumble into precipices, some be somtherd in the earth below, some after much toil bring forth a handful of clodded earth, lead or iron oar, and perhaps a slat or pebble in the stead of mettle: and if haply any one meet with the right, he will either not heed it as not appearing to be such, or lose it in the allay, melting or stamp. In fine, where so much curiosity and art is required in the manifold degrees of procedur, yet none had by any and professed by all to the disparagement of one another, with can result from such an attempt but disorder & nois, confusion and hazard, emulation & quarrel amongst themselves. Nov can they ever effect any thing to the general agreement & liking of all, or repair the coin that is destroyed.  
This is in all points our very condition; when the Christian articles of faith wrougt out and stamped for us, and delivered us by our primitiv pastors according as they had received them from Jesus Christ the prime Inventour and Workman of our faith are principitously annuld, and the Bible put in men's hands to dig out from thence by their own skill and industry the results of their religion.  
Nay the case here is so much the more desperate, in that the common people with the tradition of the Bible receiv this caution from the reformers; that they take heed of such and such abrogated articles of popery, which as they do ever and anon appear in the Scriptures they have to peruse, so are they indeed the very pith and marrow of that sacred Book, and the golden metal they are only to seek for. So that being left unto their own shallow judgements if it were then improbable they should ever light upon the whole sincere truth of good: now being advised and prejudiced against it, although they should haply light upon it, 'tis impossible with that prejudice they should ever embrace and adhere unto it.  
That the articles of Catholic religion abrogated by reformers were all stamped out for us by our primitiv Pastors and have gone currant in the whole Christian world from the beginning to this day, hath been proved a hundred times over and over by learned Catholic divines both for the general & in each particular. And that it is an impious tyranny to take them all away and put people to seek new out of the Bible, I think it will easily appear to an understanding man, if he do but consider the waywardness of man's will prone to evil and averst to good, such especially as is annexed to bitterness and pains, the fallacy of his fancy and weakness of his understanding which we cannot but perceiv to fail even in things that be in our very senses, and that both by deficiency and error, both by want of apprehension and falsity of judgement: or if we consider on the other side the obscurity of Scripture, not in itself but in order to our weak, obscure, sens-perverted intellect. Upon which two general Heads it comes to pass that men so frequently deprave the Scriptures to their own perdition▪ as Scripture itself complaineth 2 Pet. 3.  
But over and above all this, to put men to put men to seek for a thing with a fore-imprinted prejudice of that they go to find, to seek for faith with a prejudice against faith, is a tyrannous cheat and abuse hardly to be paralleled.  
If to people met together to try or search for silver and gold, one should give such like instructions, Take all that comes to hand; 'tis all good howsoever composed or mixed, two kinds only excepted; such parts of earth as have much of friability and inconsistency in them, lay hold of them: if there be any body composed of impure earth liquefied take that: if the earth, be not well vanquished, & the parts much dissimilar, 'tis good. But if the matter be more hardened by the egress of tenuity, uniformly compacted, white and lucid: take heed of that, cast that away. If the parts be yet more pure and equal, hardend and made yellow by the celestial spirit an intrinsical inmate in the body which is thereby made most flexible by virtue of the similar softness of the parts, and yet most ponderous of all metals by the uniform closnes thereof and the little porosity by which the air may enter to confer a levity; This is stark naught. It will not rust by the similar purity of the parts, nor lose its weight by melting, through the equality thereof, none being thinner than other to exhale by heat as it is in bodies unequally composed. And therefore cast it away, as a thing useless, and of no valiew or profit at all.  
With these instructions shall they ever find matter for gold and silver coin? I trow not. Nor shall they ever be able to repair the loss of their currant coin which was conformable to the hidden treasure of that mine by searching in a place where it lay hid, with so much ignorance as is naturally in unexperienced men, so much disagreement of judgement as is in a multitude not subordinate unto any one, such prejudicated opinions given them quite opposite to the design they have in hand.  
With such like prejudice do all our English people take the Bible in their hands and read it: being advised aforehand by their reformers and fully believing that the Catholic mass is abomination, the real presence a chimaera, the merit of good works a dream, fasting and all mortification of sensual desires a farthel of superstition, all endeavour of fulfilling Gods precepts a vanity, and the imagination of any possibility thereof a delusion, the indifferency of man's free will unto good or evil an error, the making of vows to god folly, restitution or satisfaction of injuries done to our neighbour a prejudicial mistake, all expiation of our sins either for our selus or others an inexpiable crime, the honour of blessed saints idolatry, and the imitation of their severe and holy lives childishness, sacrifice altars and the whole priesthood of Christ profaneness, the conscionable practice of sobriety justice and piety as necessary unto life eternal, detestable popery.  
For God's sake with good can accrue to the soul of man by reading of Scripture with these prejudices, these diabolical anticipations, these antichristian preconceptions, these obstructions to all grace and salvation.  
And yet thus forewarned and prepossessed do all our reformed Christians read the scriptures; no sound or solid fruit ariseing thence to their souls, but rather hardness of heart, pride, schisms, fearlessness of God's judgements, and where good nature (the best religion I know in England) hinders not, desperatenes in all sin and injustice.  
Nor can any foreigner brought hither out of Catholic countries ever discern either by our Church's houses or practise of peopl, that we have amongst us any knowledge at all of Gospel, unless haply he hear the goodman leading his wife to bed over night with a text, and the housewife next morning cudgelling her maid with another, the country boys whipping their tops with a saying of Paul, and the girls with another of Peter playing at last couple in hell, the drawer bringing his canary with a verse of john, and the tapster filling in his beer with a text of Matthew. This he may see, and this is all he shall find for his edification.  
And this indeed is all the fruit of our common and familiar reading of scripture, when it is done with a prejudice against solid religion sincere worship & Catholic piety: airy shadows, empty sounds, profaneness and blasphemy. And therefore it was a heavenly caution and worthy of all consideration that which we received by a voice from heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Act. 10. the things which God hath sanctified do not thou make common.  
When therefore Mr Dr you advice me to apply myself wholly to scripture. You either mean I should do this having a forehand renounced and precipitously cast away all the positive articles of belief I have received from my forefathers explicitly declared and form for me by the primitive Pastors and Teachers of my religion; and then go seek for the results of faith in the Bible, where they be implicitly hidden concealed and couched incidentally, without any method or intended order of any such conclusions, under several parables, histories, allegories, letters, canticles, psalms, prophecies, and the like. And then I should run myself into that inconvenience I have upon good reason disallowed: As to cast away all my gold and silver-coin that being stamped in primitive times by the first master of faith has gone currant in all ages, and go seek, into the mine for new, with so much hazard trouble and danger, as I cannot but see to be in such a work, whether I consider the weakness of mine own understanding and my perverse inclinations which I myself must needs be apt to favour in mine own cause; or the doubtfulness labyrinths and obscurity of that hidden mine; or finally the ill success that all people have had in such a search as their personable wretchlessenesse and dissoluteness, their disorder and disagreement one amongst another may sufficiently witness.  
Or else you mean I should apply myself to scripture with all my Catholic positions in my head, which I conceive to be the very marrow and pith of that scripture you advice me to peruse. And then I shall by reading of scripture advance nothing at all either from my own way or towards yours whatever it be. For finding my own positions to appear in scripture at every turn, I shall still embrace and close with them as with matter that is  and connatural to myself, and by their light be enabled to understand and interpret all the rest of scripture I shall meet wthall.  
Which way soever you put me to it, the rock of the bible will either keep me still from you or split me with you.  LA. 
With shall we do with you Sr Harry sigh you decline scripture which as it is the purest so 'tis the easiest way for your conversion.  VIC. 
Shall I tell you? he will even go out of his way as Balam and his ass did. I'll show you the story as 'tis written in 22 chapter of numbers, 'tis a very pretty one. There you will see how the ass confuted his rider, and said unto him Am not I thine ass; so prettily. Read here from the 22 vers to the 36. If you go not in the right way Sr Harry as we would have you, be sure you shall be checked by a very ass. When any such thing happens you may take it for a certain sign that you are out of your way.  KN. 
Scripture is a good instrument to drawn men from paganism to Christianity, but no fit means to divert us from Catholic Religion to heresy. That heavenly seed which makes sons of God can never make children of perdition except itself be mischievously corrupted. And therefore I decline it not at all, but admit, allow and embrace it, as containeing that irrefragable doctrine which eminent persons in the church of God penned, which industrious and religious persons in the same Catholic church copied & transcribed with their own hands above a thousand years together before printing was invented, to keep that sacred letter alive; and lastly which by the Catholic body of the said Church hath been authenticated and canonised: and therefore it must needs be pure and holy being mad●, conserud and ratified by holy Church. But its facility and easiness that I do not so easily conceive or agree unto; especially if you separate it from the Church whose book it is: The mind and meaning of any writing no man can understand so well as the Author, no man can interpret aright contrary to the Author, no man where it is obscure and uncouth may peremptorily interpret without the Author.  MIN. 
You will soon grant it to be easy if you consider that 'tis called a light to the understanding. With thing is there more apparent than light? And therefore 'tis said in the Ephesians: if our Gospel be hid, 'tis hid to them that are lost.  VIC. 
Sweet heart you are mistaken, that saying is not in the Ephesians but Corinthians, 2. Ep. and the 4. c.  LA. 
'tis no matter Mr person so we find out your riddle though it be by ploughing with your heifer according to the saying of Samson, jud. 14.  VIC. 
I told you even now Madam that the ass will rebuk his rider when he goes astray.  KN. 
A light if it be set behind us, or under a bushel, or to an eye ill affected inlightens not, and a prejudiced mind is a veyld understanding where light cannot enter. I must say more, he that goes out of the Church puts out his own eyes, and he that never entered in, never had any but gropes in darkness. Light is come into the world saith our Lord, but men love darkness more than light, Jo. 1. namely, because they shut their eyes against it; and no marvel that unto such the Gospel should be hid. Catholics all of them have indeed the whole Gospel by heart, and comprehendit sufficiently for the life and spirit of it; yet still the bark and letter of it hath obscurity enough which is opened and manifested as far as is needful & upon occasion by the lips of priests which preserve knowledge. No man understands the mind of man but the spirit that is in man, nor the meaning of scriptures can any comprehend but the spirit of that Catholic body whose the scriptures be. For these be immediately the word and doctrine of the Church, and therefore called the Word of God, because that Catholic body from whence it issued, is animated by the spirit of Jesus Christ her natural head who is God blessed for ever, and the particular penmen thereof being members of the said church were peculiarly illustrated by that spirit unto such an effect. So then the word of God is a light and enlightens good catholics, it enlightens not others that remain blinded in infidelity and separated from that holy mystical body of Christ: and yet 'tis a light still, 'tis hid to them that are lost.  
People that live in a family college or corporation, by the daily sight and practice of things to be done therein do fully comprehend all that is to be said or acted there. But others who be out of those societies shall never by bare reading of books written of such employments, so long as themselves stay out, attain to any satisfactory light thereof, but remain puzzled in a wood of dark words, and either mistake or not apprehend the reality and truth of things. So our people wthin the Church see distinctly and clearly the truths of God, in whose practice they are daily conversant; so that words and writings are not necessary unto such as be in a continual exercise of their trade; but sectaries paymins & all infidels who be aliens and strangers to this Society & out of the family; although they should look upon their book of statutes scriptures or laws, yet will they still be pusling about words and never clearly understand the secrets of the profession. One artist or tradesman knows more by heart and practice, than the whole world besides that is out of that body or not conversant in the society can ever attain unto by reading. A man may demonstrat by Philosophical reason, that light itself enlightens not but by reflection; no more do the word and scriptures except they reflect upon us from the bosom of the Catholic body which actuates them in their operation.  
If you would seriously ponder these few words, you should quickly perceive unto whom the scriptures be obscure and unto whom they be easy; and how they be easy to Catholics for the practice life and meaning of them, though the letter may still keep its obscurity: as children of a family may clearly understand all the whole affairs and businesses of the house, though if books should be written thereof they might not so easily understand the letter of those books. Yet these have great advantage in the understanding of such books abov those who are not coversant in the affairs being aliens and strangers to the family. For 'tis easier by the knowledge & perfect comprehension of things to understand words that be written of them; than by reading of words to perceiv things we are altogether unexperienced in.  
But to speak abstractively of the letter of Scripture without reference unto persons: as if the case were that neither you nor I ever knew any thing of the Christian religion but what we get out of the Bible or new Testament put now into our hands. Can either of us or all of us together see clearly in this letter the whole state of the Catholic Church? or without obscurity discern with is to be said and done, with is to be thought and believed, with is to be hoped and feared; with concerns God and his creatures; with angels and men; with earth and heaven; with our creation and redemption; with the beginning and end of things. First where is the order and method to find out these things. You will find that the story and doctrinal part goes hand in hand together, which is not the ordinary way of teaching. If I peruse the story of Gospel by itself, I shall scarcely find it answerable to my expectation whiles I find mention only of one hour of Christ's birth and not a word more for twelv years together, and then but one single action of his appearing in the public Schools, and not a word again of his whole life till almost twenty years after, and then only some works he did in public for the space of about three years, & so his death: which is far less than I should expect or desire to know. And the doctrine our Lord delivered is no more of it set down, than what he spoke incidentally in fields and streets and public places, the three years' space of his public appearance, and not a word of any thing he taught his Scholars or Disciples in particular, on set purpose (& without reference to public speeches) which was without all doubt the main doctrine primarily intended both by the Master & his disciples and most copiously explicated. Moreover those public speeches of or Lord we have set down in Gospel, they are delivered us but under certain general heads and brief notes, without any order or connexion at all that can appear to any the subtlest wit that is. Our Lord's Sermon on the mount is the largest piece of doctrine we have of his delivered at one time, (and most heavenly and divine it is like its author) but he that reads the sift, sixth and seven Chapters of S. Matthew, where 'tis set down, shall desire connexion. And indeed the holy Evangolists collecting their Gospels as brief memorials did it without all doubt the best way: And 'tis sufficient, and far better than if all had been set down in that order and fullness of discourse our Lord delivered it. For the few separated notions of Christian morality set down in Gospel were enough to give testimony to the traditional doctrine the Apostles had methodically received from their master for his Church. Finally those speeches of our Lord recorded in Gospel be only some brief sentences, and parables, questions and replies to interrogatories; which be far short to a whole body of divinity, though abundantly enough for a Church in who's bowels the Messiah would imprint his law and entire will.  
It appears then both by the mingling of the story and dogm together, by the few parcels of the history itself, by the want of that method and connexion in the dogmatic part which our dull capacities require for learning, and the omission of great many things we should need to be imformd in far more amply than we can find it set down in Scripture concerning the use of Sacraments, government of the Church and a thousand difficulties rising about the exercises of charity and faiths; I say it appears by these and such like things that the Scripture of the New Testament was never penned on any purpose to teach us our religion, but rather to confirm and ratify by incidental passages therein, such religion and doctrine as should be delivered by the Church the prime and sole mistress of faith after God and in place of him, in all clearness of methodical belief and practice. To you, saith our Lord to his Apostles, Luc. 8.10. it is given to known the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven, to others in parables, that seeing they may see and not understand. The Apostles and the Church derived from them were made acquainted with the mysteries and secrets of Christian religion for their belief and practice, and the same Church clearly knows and understands them as the mysteries of her own profession and art, which she hath received and practised from the beginning to this day. But to others that be aliens and out of the Church it seems our Lord so ordered his speech that they should hear and yet not understand; nor everfully perceiv his will till believing they were incorporated into his mystical body unto which alone all the mysteries of religion are delivered in perspicuity and clearness. This general purpose and intention of penning the Gospel and other parts of the New Testament as short manual notes for Christians within the Church or such as are to be congregated unto it, from which Churches hands they have both a larger explicit declaration of their faith and a full and ample practice thereof in her bosom, must needs infer such an obscurity as shall obstruct all possibility out of the Church of God by this bare letter ever to arrive to a clear understanding of the ways of Christian Religion.  
This is the first and great cause of that obscurity scripture carries with it unto such as come to seek their religion in a Book which was never made to teach it, nor written for such a propos. The church's doctrine as it comes out of her lips, that is the thing that converts nations and regenerats unto heavenly life: and this written word is a good milk to nurs us up after we are regenerated; which made S. Peter to exhort Christians 1 Pet. as new born babes to desire that sincere milk of the word that they may grow by it. 1. Pet. 2. But it is not the thing that givs us the first life. Indeed the Scripture does little or no good, but as it is presented by the Church, and received with her interpretation, and practised in her bosom, without which three things I will be bold to say it is not the Word of God, nor hath it any virtue at all. The Ark of God so long as it was upheld by the Priests it comforted and sanctified them, but touched or looked into by others it destroyed them; nor was it unto them an Ark of salvation but an offence and occasion of fall.  
If we descend to particulars we shall espy reasons enough of obscurity, such as will frustat all desire of any perspicuous discovery of faith to be made by any man without the churches help. The very history doth afford disputs enough, hardly to be answered by the learnedst of divines; as they will easily grant that have examined them. The Prophecies and mysteries of faith contained therein who is able to trace them. And the moral or dogmatic part, though it seem familiar yet hath it a profoundness beyond all human writing. Indeed by this it is demonstrated to be the Word of God which must needs be like himself, unsearchable. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh saith our Lord; and where the heart is immense the word is also incomprehensible. I doubt not but there be too many amongst our people in England who read the Scriptures as our boys and girls do at school, judging the sense comprehended as soon as the syllables be spelled; I speak not to such.  
Greater divines to whom I speak must and will acknowledge that the Scriptures be often argumentative, passing from one point to another without giving any doctrinal notice thereof. This will make the reader able to continual mistakes, whiles he conceius the writer to go still along upon the same subject, whereas he is passed over to a new or a contrary one. As also in the Psalms, canticles & Prophecies 'tis very familiar with those holy men under one & the same number & person to act themselves in one verse, God or his church in the other immediately succeeding; in one half line to decipher things present, in the other conjunctiuly connext, things only to come and not appliable to with was then in hand though the speech be united. The good Eunuch in the Acts of the Apostles was it seems advised hereof, when reading the Prophecy of Isaias he asked Philip of whom doth the Prophet speak this verse (he was led as a sheep to the slaughter.) of himself or of some other man, Act. 8.34.  
Again in the whole course of scripture a man may meet with propositions here and there desperst which being taken apart from the other discourse, and according to their own bare sound are quite opposite to other formal assertions in the same book, nay to the very drift and intention of the Author; as will soon appear unto him that shall make an analysis of the whole book: such be the semisentences, depraved texts and ill applied autorities used by sectaries. For example in that sublime and learned Epistle of S. Paul written to the Romans, our people of England do cull out many places for the solesufficiencie of faith against the necessity & merit of good works, which is as far from the dift and intention of the Apostle as hell is from heaven, and unbeseeming such a Catholic doctor as S. Paul was, to write to such a Catholic place as Rome. The business and occasion of the letter was an emulation risen in Rome between the converted Jews and the converted Gentiles; those who had been made Christians from Iewes disabling the Gentiles, as being ever aliens from God, whereas the jews converted were first Gods servants under Moses & then under Christ, and so pleasing God in the whole course of their lineage by their good conversation according to the law they used: the Gentiles on the other side diminished the jews, for that themselves by the very light of reason doing with they could was a law to themselves, and so far pleased God that he therefore brought them equally with the jews unto the light of Gospel which the jews indeed deserved not, sigh they had▪ murdered the Messiah and Lord of glory. This childish emulation arising haply upon some slight word at their meetings proceeded so far that it broke forth into open rancour one against another, insomuch that their Priests and Pastors who were amongst them could not well allay it. Wherefore S. Paul notice thereof being given to him wrote that letter of his to them, wherein he lays about him now at the jews, then at the Gentiles confuting their pride and folly and giving them both to understand that neither of them had aught to boast of, sigh God of his free mercy had equally called them both to the saving faith of Gospel and made them Christians: and therefore that they should all live together in humility peace and brotherly charity. This is the scope and subject of that sacred and most Catholic Epistle, so wretchedly abused by our pitiful Sectaries, who understanding nothing of the Apostles purpose deprave him as they do other scriptures to their own ruin. And 'tis an odd kind of riddle, that Catholic divines who do only understand the scriptures should affirm them to be hard and difficil to understand; heretics who understand them not at all should maintain them to be easy.  
Again we see that scripture ever & anon takes up figures, allegories and parables wherein are enclosed truths of a differing strain to with the letter relates. This will cause an obscurity almost invincible. For who can look through a veil? none surely but the church and church men singularly assisted and inspired; so S. Paul looked through the story of Sara and Agar, and perceived the two churches decipherd therein, Gal. 4. And this custom is it seems so frequent in Scripture that the same Apostle gives a caution against too much adhering to the bark and letter of sacred scripture, averring peremptorily that the letter kills, but the spirit or meaning couched under the letter, that is life, 2. Cor. 3. For that the bare letter of the history too much insisted upon will often lead if not to a contrary error yet besides the intended truth.  
Besides, the same phrase or letter is used in scripture sometimes one way, sometimes another, as sin (not to stand upon further exemplification) is taken commonly for an offence, and yet sometimes again for an expiation thereof, 2. Cor. 5.21. with is almost contrary.  
somethings in scripture are spoken of God according to his essence, which without good heed may prejudice the right belief of a trinity: some things of Christ according to his humanity which may d●sh the conceit of the deity in him: some things of the church triumphant which may falsely be applied to the militant: somethings of the Messiah his second coming which may be a stumbling block to the truth of his first. And contrary. All these things have caused errors mistakes and heresies in the world. And may still do the like, if private judgement have free and  dominion over the letter and text of scripture to interpret it at pleasure.  
Lastly sacred scripture being a mass or body of writing both made up by several Authors, and a miscellan of several kinds of words, histories and laws under a figure, histories and laws with out figure or dogmatic, Prophecies of several styles or phrases, and all of them obscure and parabolical, prudential Proverbs close couched together, and so antimetrically sited that rare wits can search into their depth; Psalms and canticles so highly elevated above ordinary conceit, that for aught I see they may suffice to amuse the understandings of all ages; parables not yet fully explicated; and dogmatic Epistles of the good Apostles, which if they be taken so far as may concern pure Christianity without their economical moral and political precepts (which be easy and well enough known without them) are enough to exercise the understandings of mankind. Scriptures I say made up of all these several ingredients argue first, that they were never penned to teach us our faith; but for a mere help of meditations, for exhortation & incitement of devotion and piety in people already believing. Secondly that it would be a lost labour to go cull our belief out of them, where no such purpose is intended, no method used for it, and all kind of obscurity contrary to such an end.  
But to conclude; If Scripture be indeed so clear and easy for each capacity to read, out of them to cull his faith and by them to frame his religion, as sectaries pretend, and this be indeed the judgement of all reformers; wherefore do they themselves so multiply their catechists, interpreters and expositors thereon? to with end is all their preaching and weekly teaching? this if it be indeed to any end, must needs be either to expound faith, or promote good works; if the faith be clear enough, the expounding is in vain; as for good works they be long ago exploded & banished out of the land, and the empty preaching for aught I know may go foot it after them: for words are in vain that tend to no end. In fine, whence comes all these diversities of opinions amongst us here in England about matters of faith and religion, and so opposite one to another? and yet all grounded upon Scripture. Is that way so uniform and easy that leads men so diversely? Nor am I satisfied at all in hearing some answer as they do, that this comes not of Scripture but the disorder and mistakes of men: so long as I see it may without the Churches help be so shrewdly mistaken, I have reason to suspect mistakes in myself too, if I once lean upon mine own spirit and industry as others do, being myself no better than my neighbours. And therefore I am loath nay I shall never be persuaded to leave the secure footing I now have in all tranquillity peace & uniformity with the Catholic body of God's Church, by the result of truth delivered us by antiquity consonant to God's word both written and unwritten; and run myself with the confused rout of disagreeing sectaries upon the rock of the Bible, so apt as it appears by the event to be misunderstood and and wrested awry, that I am clear of the opinion that no man out of the Church of God, nor nobody of meme besides the Church of God understands it right. Nor shall I be so mad now in my old age to go to dig myself religion having so fair a one already stamped to my hands which all the art of men and angels put together can never mend. Put him in Bedlam that undertakes both labour and hazard for naught.  LA. 
Do you think Sr Harry ever to persuade me, that reading the Gospel I do not sufficiently understand the story of Christ, his birth and life, death, and passion, resurrection, and ascension. I fear not to affirm that I understand it perfectly and (by your favour) as fully as is necessary. I do also conceiv well enough (nor is it hard so to do) with his doctrine and miracles conduced to mankind. I am moved also with the divine discourse of Christ and his Apostles. Every Sabboth-day I go to Church and hear the word of God preached. I cannot see with is more to be done, he that reads and hears and beleeus the word of life cannot miscarry.  VIC. 
And I for my part understand all that ever I either read or hear. Alas when I was a young girl I was even then so towardly that I could read the Scripture as I ran up and down the house, according as it is written, writ the vision and make it plane upon Tables that he may run that readeth. Hab. 2. My husband and I every Sabbath day go hand in hand to Church together like the beasts that went into the ark by two and by two, the Male and his Female, Gen. 7.2. Surely this is sufficient for the salvation of all flesh.  KN. 
Madam you have now touched upon the main business wherein all sectaries be most pitifully deluded. If they do but go to Church and hear a Sermon, each one according to his fancy, their duty is done and all his safe.  
I will not stand now to examine whether the preaching be orthodox or no. Be it what it will, It will not serve the turn.  
I have already to my ability declared that the reading of Scripture is no sufficient means of finding out our faith, though so much as it is, it doth all of it confirm and verify the Church's doctrine. I shall now go forward and evince two truths more. First that reading or preaching of God's word or the hearing thereof (though it be indeed God's word and pure and orthodox) is not the essential or cardinal work of Christian religion. Secondly that a man may hear and read it all his life time and yet be lost at the end both for want of grace and truth.  
Our Lord wrote nothing himself, as all men know, yet notwithstanding he would never have failed either to have done it himself or commanded others to have done it, if reading or hearing had been the great work of his religion to be imposed upon mankind. For reading you know, and expounding of Scripture presupposes writing, and his great work had been no other than to see things written if our great work had been no other than to read or hear them. The four Evangelists afterwards put together some few heads of our B. saviours life and doctrine, haply to carry about with them in their bosom, and entertain their converts wthall. But we do not read that our Lord gave them any command to do so. And this is an argument in your principles that he gave them none at all. And as he gave them no order to write, so neither did the promise them any assistance in their writing; for all the concurrence we find promised either them or their successors, was only for the pectoral custody of their traditions oral doctrine and Church- government. And therefore since you deny the constancy of Christ's assistance in the continual government of his Church, internal belief, and external doctrine unto which that assistance was promised, affirming that the Church of Christ as it is not in itself infallible so hath it gone astray both in practice and doctrine; me thinks you might with as much ease and indeed more plausibility deny the same concurrence to any of the Church's writings whereunto it was never promised at all, nor the Scripture or writing itself so much as commanded by him without whose order nothing of force or authority could be done.  
Nor it is to be thought but that Peter, James, Andrew, and others of the Apostles had been both as able and as willing to write Evangells as the other four, whereof two of them were but disciples of a far inferior rank to the Apostles and indeed but companions and attendants upon them as may be seen in the Acts. Nay if writing had been such a capital work, S. Peter would never have neglected to have writ a Gospel himself, especially when S. Mark his pupil and companion wrote one. But this is an argument they had some greater work in hand and more nearly enjoind than that was. Nor can we find by any monument that any of the other ten Apostles who were sent several ways for the world's conversion carried any written Gospel at all with them which might be made by themselves; much less is it to be thought that they stayed to write out theirs, having their own breasts so well fraught with all that, and far more than they found there written, especially considering that two of the Evangelists were but their pupils and disciples. Nay before those Gospels were written out and completed, especially that of S. John, the Church of God was spread up and down the world and flourished in all the duties of Christianity. By which it may appear that even the written Gospel is neither itself necessary to the being of the Church, nor the reading or expounding of a text the essential work of Christianity.  
As for the Epistles which be the other part of the new Testament written by S. Paul and others. These 'tis well enough known were penned a long while after the Church of God was perfectly formed and grown up in most parts of the known world; & in particular after those Churches of Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonica and the rest unto whom they are addressed were perfected in all the essentials of Christian faith; and they were occasioned merely accidentally upon the creeping in of some disorders and errors in those places contrary to the tradition of faith they had received, as may soon appear to him that reads and understands the tenor of those spiritual Epistles.  
So then; the Church is antecedent to her Scripture, and altogether independent thereon either for her being or profession: helps of memory as all these writings be do presuppose both the memory and the things to be remembered before those helps were brought to light: And so, the reading of these Scriptures or hearing them expounded can no wise be the essential work of Christian religion or the total exercise thereof; but something that is altogether independent of them, more ancient than they be, and that is more intrinsically a worship, homage, adoration and service of the most high God, than hearing or looking upon words and syllables can be.  
I make no doubt but the whole Scripture or writing of the new Testament, both Epistles and Gospels was merely casual and accidental. For I find it long ago foretold by the Prophets that the law and government of the Messiah should in this differ from the Law of Moses, that Moses Law was all committed to paper but the doctrine of jesus should be writ in the heart and entrails of his Church. You may see one place in the Prophet jeremy, c. 31.33. which the Apostle in his Epistle, to the Hebrews applies unto Christ our Lord's days, Heb. 10.16. and S. Paul doth not obscurely allude unto it in one of his letters he wrote to Corinth. c. 3.3. Indeed to imprint in the church's breast a law from which she should never deviat, is in my judgement a greater argument of divinity than any written Gospel could afford. The things which Solon, Numa, Lycurgus, Draco, and other such like men contrived and dictated for the good of their common wealths, did much commend their gravity, vigilance and wisdom; and elevated them above other men, not above manhood. Moses himself the most profound & judicious Lawmaker the world ever had, by the excellency of his written Laws hath merited the title of a divine and sacred legislatour: but he is known to be a man by his hand-writing, and the paper he wrote on. He is a God that writes on the velin of the heart characters indelible unto eternity. The Law of Christ only is written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God not in tables of stone but in fleshly tables of the heart.  
I do also verily think, that the religion which the Son of God delivered to his church was neither commanded by him to be written; nor yet ever intended either by the Evangelists or other of those primitiv writers to be totally set down, under the notion of a rule of faith: although so much as there is of it, drawn principally for the use of devotion and charity, be a rule of faith also. What the occasion might be that moved the four Evangelists to write their compendious Gospels, by the little learning I have I could never yet assuredly gather: although I remember I have read something thereof in a learned latin book, made by a friend of mine called Systema fidei put forth some few years ago, wherein be very many things of excellent learning worthy of the Author, but I have not now the book at hand. With occasion moved S. Paul to write his Epistles unto Rome, Corinth and other places is manifest enough, and I shall afterward declare it, when I shall come to discover the religion of the Apostles and Evangelists, and make it appear that they were all papists, and of the very self same religion catholics be of at this day.  
All this put together; that Christ himself neither wrote any thing nor commanded any thing to be written, yea gave notice that he would use his special prerogative of legislatourship and write his law in hearts, promising to animate the body of his Church with his own spirit which should lead them into all truth; and that the church was dispersed over the earth before any Christian writing was made, which was afterwards drawn to confirm and strengthen the faith and devotion it found already planted: All this being true, it follows apparently that hearing or reading or preaching upon a text is not the great capital work of Christian Religion. Indeed 'tis childishness to think that God unto whom all prostration, adoration, all homage service and worship both of the outward & inward man is more than due, should be sufficiently served with a little labour of the lips or ears when a man thinks good so to do.  
Preaching is indeed necessarily antecedent to Christian faith; yet it only disposes unto furrher actions, as may easily appear both by authority of Scriptures, which exclaim bitterly against such as hear and go no further; and also by the very nature of hearing and all kind of exhortation which ever tends to something besides itself. For who ever heard only to hear and no further: who but our mad reformers ever preached only to be heard? And how can speaking on one side and hearing on the other complete the whole duty of man to his God? as if one were nothing but tongue and ear, or had received nothing from him but those two organs.  
Tell me Madam ingenuously: Do not you think you have sufficiently done your duty to God, if you go but forth once a Sunday to hear a Sermon? and if you read a chapter or two in a week day, this is nothing else in effect: although by your favour you do not think you self bound under sin to either: but if you like the weather, or the parson pleases, or your clothes be neat and handsome, than you will go forth to church, if not you will stay at home: if you find yourself disposed in the week time to be godly, you read a chapter, if not you let it alone. And this is all you do or ever mean to do. And if your preacher do sometimes upon occasion exhort you to the abnegation of worldly desires, to the castigation of your body by fasting and discipline that you become not reprobate, to hospitality or almsdeeds, to a general abdication of all things for Christ by leaving father and mother wife and lands to follow him in that nakedness himself practised, finally to an universal conformity to the Son of God in piety and poverty. These and such like things he speaks by course and out of formality to make a plausible noise in the Church and fulfil his hour. But he is not so mad as to think you will ever practise any of these things, nor do you hear him with any such purpose; the practice of such things being well enough known by both of you or at least believed to be down right popery by all reformations discarded. His preaching is a talking to your ears, and your hearing a listening to his lips, till the sound cease, and then the essential work of your religion is done. But if haply you like the wit of the preacher and give him your applaus, than you have both of you your final expectation: and the whole work of religion both essential and accidental is accomplished.  
This kind of hearing and preaching tending to no further end is so far from being the sole act religion that 'tis no religion at all; nay 'tis a mere mockery and abuse of religion condemned by the Scriptures both of the old and new Testament where 'tis concluded that not hearers but doers are justified.  VIC. 
I could wish you would remember Sir that Christ said more than once, he that hath ears to hear let him hear: but he never said, he that hands to work let him work; or he that hath knees to kneel let him kneel; or he that hath meat to eat let him fast. Leave your talking Sr Harry and read the bible.  MIN. 
The acts of the Apostles, will make it manifest that after Pentecost Peter and john, and Paul, and others of the Apostles were wholly taken up in preaching as the sole act of Christian religion.  KN. 
Christian preaching is of two sorts. The first is absolutely necessary, the other only expedient. The first is made to Paynims and such as have not yet heard of Christ or respect him not as they ought, to convert them to his religion and faith; the other to Christians, to put them in mind of the practice and end thereof: the first is the parent and productiv power of faith, the second a mistress and overseer of works. Of the first kind of peaching is often mention both in the Acts of the Apostles and other parts of the new Testament. For both in Gospel when our saviour sent out his Apostles to preach unto all nations, and when they exercised this their mission in the Acts preaching before jews and Pagans, and when S. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans and elsewhere speaks so much of preaching, 'tis every where meant of this preaching unto Gentiles, Paynims and unbelievers for their conversion. But concerning the second kind of preaching made unto Christians there is no news or mention at all thereof in the whole book of the Acts; nor did ever any of those primitiv believers come together to hear a Sermon, but only to supplication and prayer, and fraction of bread which is the Catholic Mass.  
Indeed on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Ghost had visibly descended upon the Catholic church congregated together in one place, and made them all speak with strange tongues: Upon noise hereof all sorts of people both jews and Gentiles came flocking in to behold the wonder, than S. Peter took the occasion to make a Sermon to those strangers who stood amazed at the sight, Act. 2. but that speech was not directed at all to the Christians, as may appear by the very matter and tenor thereof; and all the Christian service was ended before the people unto whom he addressed his speech came in. Nor for some hundred years after do we find or hear tell of any preaching made to Christians; nor were they ever accused by the Roman prefects for other, than for meeting together and breaking of bread; whereas Sermons if they had had any made, had afforded a more plausible accusation against such as already, though without any desert of theirs, bore the name of seditious.  
As soon as any person or nation had embraced his Christian faith he then without expecting further preaching fell presently to those works his faith dictated to him, and according to his obligation applied himself to the rule he had received, as may be seen in the book of the Acts. And doubtless all prelates who had care of souls held forth unto believers that great dictamen of perfection and justice which S. Paul calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. We will and command that all who have once believed in God do make it their care to attend unto good works, Tit. 3.8. Tho indeed in after times when that first fervour of Christian charity grew cold, and especially upon times of singular mortification and fasts, as in Lent and Advent, as also upon high solemnities, the Catholic Church hath ever made use of this secondary preaching which is made unto Christians for the incitement of works of piety. This secondary peaching is indeed a religious exercise & profitable to distressed and slack spirits for comfort and advice. But no good Christian ever looked upon it as the great work of his religion or ever thought his duty to be done when the Sermon was ended.  
In a word, the Catholic church uses both these kinds of preaching, the one to infidels for their conversion, the other to Christians for their exhortation. But she places the sum of her religion in neither of them; but in the performance of those things whereunto people are converted and exhorted. And a third kind of preaching which is to no further end at all, but only to spend time, was never thought of by Christians till this wretched heresy invented it. For your preaching is not Mr Parson to convert your auditors, who have already received their faith and be as good Christians as yourself, nor yet to excite them to good works which be in both your judgements justly casherd long ago as popish. But your preacher, he preaches till for his livelihood he has stood his hour, and the hearers hear till they have sat their hour, and then all hasten home and the work of God is ended. This is all your holocaust, an ear-offering: and he that wants his ears, or has them stopped by cold may stay at home as unfit for service.  
In my judgement 'tis pure non sens and no religion at all to be still preaching faith as reformers do unto people which already understand their faith as well as their teachers, or think they do at least: and if they chance for formalities sake to fall upon any practical point to speak thereof with no purpose, hope or intention of their practice. For 'tis agreed on both sides, both preacher & people that such practice is popery, and nothing requisite to salvation but only to believe.  
Hear a parable. Two artificers had each of them an apprentis. The first having delivered to his servant exactly all the rules of his art, put him presently to work and practice by them, assuring him that practice will better his knowledge, which the servant in all singleness of heart applying himself to labour according to the dictates of his rule advanced accordingly, and so became eminent in the eyes of men, and excceedingly beneficial to the common wealth. The other tradesman with drew from the sight of his prentice all the particular rules and whole method of his art, & only delivered unto him in gross some experiments and feats thereof, by which notwithstanding he could not perceiv at all either where to begin or how to go on; nay he gave his servant one general caution, not to put his hands to any thing, his duty being only once a week to come and sit down before him, and hear him discourse of the usefulness and benefit of his trade: Only believing in him his work is ended. The prentice under such a teacher grew to be a great proficient in works and sentences, but never put his hand to any thing either for his own credit or the benefit and service of mankind. Nay he mocked at the other apprentis and called him simple drudge. The first of these artificers is the Catholic church, the other is the Reformation. Do you apply the rest.  
The Catholic Religion is a noble, a rational religion, well beseeming a complete man to profess, well beseeming the Son of God to plant. The reformation a vain empty business, befitting none to receive it but a company of cripples, that have neither hands nor feet to use; nor none to invent it but daws and magpies. It gins in teaching and ends in preaching. woe to you Pharisees saith our Lord for ye tith mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgement and justice and the love of God▪ those ye ought to have done, and not leave the other undone, Luc. 11. Preaching if it be right and pious may be used; nay, when instructions, advise and comfort is necessarily to be applied, it ought to be done: but the practice wherunton it tends, this is not to be left undone. The tithing of mint, rue and cumin does but figure out under a type a consecrating unto God part of the good things we do enjoy from him, by fasting almsdeeds and prayer: that is to be done, these not to be left undone. Preaching puts in mind of the works of faith hope and charity: that where is need, is to be used, these not to be neglected. At one and the same time to preach good things in the pulpit, and to cry down the same things by the rules of Reformation is to open a man's mouth and stop his wind pipe. All your people go to your Churches with such a prejudice against the customs of Catholic Church, whence they are cut off by the reformation, that although the minister should chance with singular zeal and eloquence to declaim against sin, and cry up the exercises of Christianity; yet the auditory is promoted nothing at all thereby, being aforehand prejudiced by the rules of reformation incorporated and naturalised in their spirit. For who can take such words to heart, or ever heed them effectually, that shall firmly believe that all we do or can do is sin, and with sin soever we commit, we shall sure enough be saved if we do but believe in Christ. People imbued with these principles shall never by any Rhetoric either of man or angel, be either affrighted from evil, worldly pleasures and sin; or persuaded to the laborious works of mortification and penance. The sour grapes of Reformation have so set people's teeth on edge, that they cannot chew good mear. 'tis in vain, 'tis utterly in vain to bid dead men walk, or exhort those to the works of life who by the poison of reformation are made dead and senseless. Preaching is to catholics a profitable and religious exercise; to heretics if it be orthodox 'tis a vain work, if pseudodox 'tis a wicked work: but to no people nor in no kind is it or can it be the only work or sole Christian duty.  LA. 
With be those works Sir Harry you require over and above preaching.  KN. 
Even such as the Word of God itself requires. The works of faith hope and charity and use of Sacraments, prescribed in Gospel: a serious and effectual endeavour against sin according as sacred scripture prescribes, whose precepts must be heeded as obligatory, and counsels respected as meritorious offerings. We must both believe in Christ as mediator, and believe him too as our legislatour. Both love him and observe his will; and when we do fail, reconcile ourselves unto him by the means-himself hath ordained; captivating both our will and understanding to his pleasure, who is our redeemer and master and omnipotent Lord.  
To speak more particularly; the works which catholics by their faith are directed and exhorted unto be of two sorts, personal and conventual. The personal works be first, a constant obedience to the Church in all her dictamen of faith: upon this great hinge hangs indeed all true and solid Christianity: then an effectual exercise of homage and piety to God, of justice and charity towards our neighbour, of sobriety and continence in ourselves. These things must be done: he that does them best shall far best for it. The conventual, a reverend use of Sacraments, and a presence at divine psalmody and Sermons, according to our occasion and need.  
But the great capital conventual work and worship is the venerable and blessed Sacrifice of the Altar, every holiday solemnly exhibited; & every Christian stands obliged to be then present at it: though his devotion may find it each day of the week in our Catholic churches; and many thousands of good people serve God every day in this holy rite. But this is a free offering of their own not without great benefit and comfort to themselves, unto which Holy church will not oblige.  
This is that great work which constitutes and essentiates Christian Religion. By this it was perfected in its fundamental worship and duty towards God long before our people had any Scriptures to read; and by which, especially seconded with its other Catholic appurtenancies, it would still remain entire although there were no Scriptures at all either to read or hear. For Scripture as it is expounded by Holy church, or rather the traditional doctrine of the church, whereof Scripture is a short and compendious copy, is to us Christians a light, not to sit idle by, but to work by.  
This is the work which the Disciples and Apostles fell upon immediately after the ascension of our Lord according as he had taught them to do at his passion: where by word and action showing his Apostles the manner of that great work he added his charge, Hoc facite, This do ye. For saith holy text. Then returned they from Jerusalem, and when they were come into an upper room, they all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus. Act. 1.12. The great work here was bowing of knees not squatting down in a pew, supplication not exhortation, praying not sermoning. And the sweet penman of that story speaking of the presence of the other sex, out of his peculiar devotion expressed by name Mary the mother of Jesus who with her presence graced the first high mass of the Church in all angelical purity. And the church since that time had never high mass without her. The sacred text insinuats that this great work held them no small time together, by saying that they continued with one accord therein. 'tis likely they were constant and daily at it all the ten days between Ascension and Pentecost, for they were commanded to keep together till they were endued with power from on high, Luc. 24.49.  
And in some one of those days, (probably after the sacred ceremony was ended) S. Peter stood up and propounded to the body of the church an election of some one in place of judas, that the sacred hierarchy might be made up against Pentecost, when the holy Ghost was to descend upon them: when indeed he did descend upon them all, united with one accord in the same exercise. S. Peter declareing and defending the novelty of that strange infusion, to such jews and Gentiles as came running in amongst them at the noys thereof. And as before Pentecost they Christians did constantly persever in that sacred solemnity, so did they after the holy Ghosts descension with exceeding cheerfulness and joy of heart persist therein much more. The same holy pen sets forth this their Eucharistical action both before and after Pentecost in most significant terms: the words in original Greek are more emphatical than can be rendered in English. Our Lord ascending saith the Evangelist, lift up his hand & blest his people, who having worshipped him as he ascended returned back to Jerusalem with great joy, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Et erant omnino in sacro, laudantes & benedicentes Deum. Luk. 24.53. And they were wholly or altogether in the sacred action or sacrifice praising and blessing God. I know Translatours read it thus, They were continually in the Temple; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sacrum in his primary acceptance signifies the sacrifice, and secondarily the place where it is performed, or the temple: and Catholics may render it the temple, because that sacred action renders the place where it is done a temple or sacred ground. But that the word in this place must of itself signify the religious exercise, liturgy of sacrifice of the primitive Christians, and not the temple in that sense the word temple is commonly understood, I am induced by three reasons to believe. First because the Christians had then no Church or Temple of their own, as it is manifest: and as for the temples or Synagogues of the Jews, though one or two of the Christians might upon some occasion go thither, haply to inform the people that went in and out, of the truth of the Messiah, and by some sign or miracle to testify his power; as Peter and John healed a lame man at the Temple-gate, Act. 3. Yet it is not to be thought that all the whole Flock and Congregations of Christians people would be permitted to take up those places day by day, and to fulfil their Christian rites and ceremonies in the Jews Churches, who looked upon them all as apostats and excommunicated men, and hated and persecuted them unto death. And therefore when 'tis here, and in other places of the Acts said that the Christians were wholly or altogether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in sacco this word in sacro cannot signify the place of worship as it is usually taken, but the action or worship itself. Secondly this will yet more demonstratiuly appear, if we join the latter end of S. Luke's Gospel now mentioned, with the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles, wherein the story is continued and more largely expressed. For in the end of S. Luke's Gospel are compendiously set down the religious exercises of the Christians after our Lord's ascension, who are said to have come back to Jerusalem and there to be continually in sacro, blessing God: v. ult. And in the beginning of the Acts the same thing is repeated again with some addition and inlargment of the story; the text saying that the Christians returning from the mount, whence our Lord ascended, unto Jerusalem, they betook themselves in the City 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, unto a gallery or upper chamber to do their devotions where they all continued with one accord in prayers. Act. 1.12. This is spoken of the same people, at the same time and in the same action. And therefore they were not in the Temple as we commonly take the word temple to signify, but in a gallery or upper-chamber of some house, where mass or Christian liturgy was celebrated: and yet they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in sacro as S. Luke expresses it. And men that are but meanly skilled in Greek and Latin know that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sacrum is a word of elegance whereby the sacred work of religion is expressed: & to this day a Priest at mass is said to be in sacro or in sacris. Thirdly the same holy Scripture expressing this Christian worship as it was done after Pentecost, saith of the Christians that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in sacro domi, in this sacred action or sacrifice at home, or in their own houses, Act. 2.46. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And day by day they strongly perseverd unanimously in sacro, & at their houses breaking the bread they received the food in exultation and singleness of heart praising God & having grace with all people, Act. 2.46. The whole Christian synaxy is here described, both the sacrifice and communion, the circumstance both of the place & persons who were in sacro at their sacrifice, and comunicated with exultation in their own houses. That his sacrum and fraction of bread was a high religious ceremony is apparent by the constant mention of it in such places of that book as do purposely treat of the religious exercises, piety, and devotion of the primitiv Christians, who are commended and described unto as persevering daily either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in sacrifice, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in communion, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in breaking of bread, prayer, supplication, and the like. As also for that the two Disciples travelling to Emaus with whom our Lord joined himself in the way knew and discerned him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in fractione panis in his breaking of bread, Luk. 24.35. For that religious work they knew was done by none but Christ himself or his Priests.  
This discourse upon the words of Scripture I have somwt enlarged beyond my custom, not to teach Catholics; for although the Greek should be rendered by them in templo they know well enough that every place where that most sacred rite is done is a temple, and so 'tis indifferent to them to translate it either in templo or in sacro, but to let others (who be not Catholik) understand that more is implied in such expressions than they do ordinarily think of; and that the religion of the primitiv Christians was not preaching (whereof here is no mention at all) but prayers, supplications, sacrifice, or fraction of bread: Which religious employment is in another place of the same chapter yet more fully expressed. They were saith he firmly persisting in the doctrine of the Apostles and in comunion and in fraction of bread and supplications, v. 42. They firmly persisted both in the Apostles doctrine; unanimously united in faith without schism, division or any singularity of opinions, which might separat them from the main body into particular conventicles; and also in comunion one with another both by fraternal charity, Ecclesiastical obedience and Christian Sacraments: & in Fraction of bread which was the great Cardinal capital work of their faith and the very quintessence of Christianity; and in supplications (in the plural number) both for living and dead, both for pastor and people, for every degree, for every necessity. This was a right Catholic body and the right exercise of their Catholic faith. And such and no other is the faith & religion of all Catholics to this day, those I mean who are traduced by frivolous people under the notion & name of Papists, which is a barbarous word and neither Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, nor yet good English; and if it signify any thing it is as much as to say Fatherists, because they persist unanimously and firmly in the doctrine of Apostolical pastors and fathers, in comunion with them, in fraction of bread and supplications, day by day persevering in sacro, and breaking the bread at their houses, which they take together in exultation and singlnes of heart praising God, and having grace towards all good people. Pray God bless them all.  
To make themselves worthy of this Holy comunion our catholics do frequently examine and clens their consciences as P. Paul advises to do, which cleansing and examining of conscience none but catholics know with it means.  
This sacred Action and venerable service of God was by the first Christians named Missah, a notion they had out of the old Testament, where the Sacrifice of the Messiah peculiar only to his people and religion by way of constitution & distinction from all others, is so named: and the Latin and western part of the church did ever keep the name as well agreeing to the Latin tongue. But the Eastern and Greek churches called it ordinarily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Liturgy, which was their own language, and o word whereby that sacred action was expressed in the new Testament. In the Acts of the Apostles 'tis frequently called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 breaking of bread. The primitiv Christians gave it several names, the Eucharist, the Synaxy, the Dominicum, and the like, changing the word as soldiers do the watchword, that uncircumcised paynims should not know with they meant; as our catholics now in England use some by-expressions thereof for concealment. And the ancient doctors of the church wrote very cautiously of it, especially in such books as they thought might haply fall into the hands of pagans as may be seen in several places of Origen, S. Austin and others. I observed the last time I read over S. Austin de civitate Dei a very notable passage to this purpose (though I have not now the book to turn to it) where speaking accidentally of the venerable bread of Christians he presently recalls himself saying, they know with I mean whose bread this is and in whose cause I write. And a certain Roman prelate in ancient times denied to send by writing an answer of some doubts propounded by ultra-marin Christians concerning some circunstances of the mass, lest the pagans intercepting his letters should thereby discover the mystery of Christian Religion; but he promised to send a messenger to the petitioners, who should inform them by word of mouth. So careful they were not to cast this pearl before swine. Yet as soon as Paganism was subdued, their writings came abroad copiously, and gave ample testimonies thereof. S. Ambrose was in the third age of the church, and yet he began to be bold, and writ not only of the substance of the thing, but betrayed the very name, whereby it was generally known and called, namely missa or mass. But they all frequently spoke of the Altar, and Priests, the Sacrifice and service of the most high God performed in Christian Religion, and the like. And the writers of the last twelv hundred years speak so amply and so plainly thereof, that the very citation of their evidences would fill a volume.  
For this divine service were all our churches in England erected by catholics in the form of a cross: the high Altar now called the Chancel being placed in the head of the church, and the Tabernacle over it for the body of our Lord to repose on for Christian men's solace, with candles and lamps before it; below it was the choir for the clergy, to sing praises night and day before their redeemer: on both sides of the church, lesser Altars for other priests to celebrate in at their devotion; and the nave or body of the church kept cleanly and vacant for the people to kneel in, & continue with one accord in their supplication and prayer, according as it is written, My house is the house of prayer.  
If churches had been only built for preaching and hearing Sermons they would not have been made in the form of a cross as they be, but of a theatre or amphitheatre rather, with scaffolds about for that purpose, and such stalls or pews below as now all our churches are pestered with, in Catholic times utterly unknown.  
And if a man look into the places of devotion the Christians resorted unto in times of paganism before they had any churches erected, which were for the most part in dens and caves & bottoms of mountains (whereof many are still to be found in all Kingdoms of Europe) he shall easily discern what their business was there. I once saw one of them in a hill near Paris called mount Dammartin which descended as I remember three score steps into the hill; at the bottom there is a place, of the bigness of a chamber, and an Altar stone at the head of it in part still remaining, and a hole in the same rock over the Altar for the Priest's chalice to stand in. And generally, where ever such places are found, there is either an entire Altar stone, or some remnants or signs of it.  
This sacred Synaxy was the only thing that brought Christians together in times of hottest persecution, at which most of our Christian Martyrs were taken. And yet notwthstanding others could not forbear; for that they could not have that comfort any other way nor yet were they able to live without it: As appears in the Acts and process of our ancient Martyrs; particularly the proconsulary Acts of S. Saturnin. Where we read that when the pagan emperor's had given a command that no Christian should dare to be present any more at their Mass, which the Christians at that time called their Dominicum, the martyrs replied sine Dominico esse non possumus, we cannot live without Mass. And therefore S. Saturnin being asked by Analin the proconsul whether he had been at Mass he answered Christianus sum as if he had said being as I am a Christian I cannot do otherwise; 'tis Christianity, 'tis my very life and being. If all the Religion of those ancient Christians had been only a little bearing or reading, and their only work to believe in Christ; they had never needed to expose their lives for that: for Reformers do not think themselves bound under sin to hear any body; sigh they believe already, which is all that is necessary to salvation. We cannot live without absolution and Mass, they may live without a prattling preacher which most of them do but censur; and none of them be advanced by him either in their faith or good works: only their ear is sometime tickled a little with a witty actor in the pulpit; as there be indeed some of them so ingenious, that 'tis as much pleasure to hear them speak as Ben. johnsons' Catiline or Sejanus.  
By all this discourse I would infer that hearing or preaching the word is not the sole act of Christian Religion; nor yet the main and principal act thereof: sigh of its own nature it is but a preparativ and disposition to some further work; and the disposition is ever les noble than the form it disposes unto. And if it dispos unto no other thing, as Reformers preaching does not, then is in no Religion at all but a mere mockery. This was my first thesis.  
My other was, that a man may all his life time either read or hear the word and yet at length be undone both for his sin and infidelity, if in any one thing he misbeleev or fail.  LA. 
If we let you alone Sr Harry, you will not come to a period wthin your time; the glass is run.  KN. 
I will dispatch in a word.  VIC. 
Do so Sr Harry, for it is written; In a multitude of Words there wants not sin, but be that refrains his lips is wise, Prov. IC  KN. 
That any one error in faith suffices for destruction, although a man otherwise believe the story of Gospel is apparent in reason: For all the Articles of faith being received upon one and the same motiv which is the verity of the revealer; the formal denial of any one must needs be a virtual denial of all; and consequently the destruction of faith, without which no man can be saved. Wherefore S. Paul is bold to condemn Hymeneus & Philetus known Christians for one only error. Eat saith he profane and vain babble, for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker, of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus who have erred from the truth, saying that the resurrection is passed already & overthrow the faith of some, 2. Tim. 2.16. By this example we see that one error overthrows faith. And yet 'tis worth noting too, that the error those two are condemned for is not any thing formally opposite to Scripture; for Christ told his disciples of a resurrection to come, but did not say that in Hymeneus his time it was not past: but their mistake and misdemeanour was merely against the judgement of the church whose Priests expounding Scripture told them that the resurrection was not then past; and yet they would not be quiet notwithstanding, nor resign their judgement.  
Another like precedent we have in his other Epistle where he saith; The younger widows refuse, for when they begin to wax wanton against Christ they will marry, having damnation because they have cast of their first faith, 1. Tim. 5.11. Tho marriage be in itself lawful, yet undertaken against the church's authority as it is itself a mortal sin, so is it a casting off and a destruction of all faith. And yet those widows were believers, and fill devotes too, such as looked to the dressing of their churches and Altars, washing of their sacred vestments ar●● other works of charity.  
As for mortal sin, that any one will ruin the soul even of a believer, appears by the tenor of the whole new Testament, especially of S. Paul's Epistles, wherein he dehorts the Christians in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus and others from sin in general & each mortal sin in particular, because the wager of sin is death, & neither adulterers, thiefs, or murderers shall ever enter into the Kingdom of God & of Christ. Which exhortation had been of no valiew and nothing to the purpose, if sin had been nothing prejudicial to one that believeth.  
By this account a man may both hear & read Scripture all his life time, and yet be condemned at length both for sin and infidelity, if he do not adhere closely to all truths revealed by the church, and use all Sacraments and helps of salvation she propounds.  LA. 
This point requires further discussion than we have now time for. And my servant hath put me in mind that dinner is brought up. Wherefore break of and let's go in.  MIN. 
Let's in, let's in to the great work: where we shall meet with an abstract of Metaphysiks, In vino veritas, in pane unitas, in carne bonitas. Nay thers divinity & Sacraments too. Let's in good Sir Harry, on my conscience I have such a gaping appetite, I could swallow a camel.  KN. 
Me thinks Dr we are at a good feast already, according to those sacred words, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work, joh. 4.  MIN. 
After two or three cups of wine Sr Harry I'll repeat over all this discourse of yours, and refute it to the full. Foecundi calices. It was the first & best miracle Christ ever did to turn water into wine, I would he had turned a little more of it.  VIC. 
O Husband sweet wine and fair women are seldom found in the same country. Content yourself you had better have me with a pot of your ale, than a french face with a whole Butt of claret. Go to now.  MIN. 
That's right too. But did you never hear with the Scotchman said to King James when he asked him which bishopric he would have, Bath or Wells. Marry beath, beath, quoth the Scotchman. The King for the conceit put both the Byshopricks into one, and gave him beath together. Wine and wife are to me as Bath and Wells. Let me have beath as the Scotchman said.  VIC. 
Go your ways, go. Were it not that you cast a glance of your eye now and then upon me, when you are in your pulpit, you would be but a dry preacher. 'tis even so Madam.  LA. 
Even so be it.   

THIRD DIALOGUE.  VIC. 
LO I come, according as it is written, Psa. 40.9. Dear Madam good morrow to your Lap. It seems I am the first to day, somewhat earlier than ordinary; but so it is written. Thou shalt hear my voice betimes in the morning, Psa. 5. O Sr Harry, welcome, welcome; you could not stay long from us, when both the spirit and the bride say, Come, Rev. 22. I'll be the spirit for once, especially when I am got up in a morning out of my bed. And why not I pray you, sigh the very ruler of darkness, when people are got up, for conformities sake transforms himself into an angel of light, 2. Cor. 11.14.  KN. 
Health and happiness attend my noble Lady this day and ever. It pleases my eye Madam to behold the cheer of your countenance this morning, which seems to promise to my purposes a good success.  LA. 
I doubt not of good success both to my wishes and your own, if you will but relent a little of that hardness and obstinacy is in a manner natural unto Papists. I would not Sr Harry proceed so rigorously as to request you all at once to abjure the whole body of popery, but to let fall at first the super fluous parts of it, that do hung loser on, and be of least concernment and use; and to stand so disposed, as to think obstinacy unhandsome in any thing. Papists say truly that they are built on a rock; I think all their whole church is rock; for one may as soon with his teeth by't off a piece of marble, as wrest from them any of their very least opinions: so firm, tenacious and obstinate ye be all of you. Nay to save a whole Kingdom you will relent nothing at all: What a mass of money did Harry the vl spend for six years together in Ambassadors and agents in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany to procure the testimonies of Universityes; and yet he was not▪ able either for love or money, although he were a magnanimous noble Prince, to purchase so much as the hands or consent of any one University, for the lawfulness of his affection to his sweet Lady Anne Bullen. And the pope's Cardinals, although they received no small weight of good English gold from our Princely Harry, insomuch that they could have wished he had had his fill of her, yet would they not be brought by any means to say he might lawfully do it. Your Popes themselves though I confess they have been many of them very holy and learned personages, yet some of them have been known to be as bad as the worst; and yet even thes have been as Zealous of the integrity of their faith as the greatest Saints; and would sooner do ill, than say it might be done. Simony, Pride, Gluttony, known and acknowledged sins these some of them would act of their own accord; but all the power of earth summoned together should not force any of them to abrogat one article of their faith or traditions, though it were but the sprinkling of holy water. I read not long ago in an authentic story, that the nobls and Prelates of England perceiving the resolution & rage of K. Harry upon the forementiond affront, certified the Pope by a private Ambassador, that if he did not some what relent, and condescend to the King's desires, the whole frame of Catholic Religion in England which already cracked would be utterly overthrown, the nobility disgraced, monasteries ruind, Bishops deposed, thousands imprisoned, and perhaps martyred, and the whole land undone. To which the pope replied, (frantic man as he was) though the whole body of Christ's church should be destroyed, yea though heaven and earth should mingle together in its old Chaos of confusion, yet would he not declare that lawful which in conscience he thought was not so. What a crabbed perverseness was this. He was certainly no Gentleman S ● Harry, that would not be persuaded, though heaven and earth should come together, to change his judgement.  KN. 
To be obstinate and heady in our own proper opinions is oftimes unseasonabl and unhandsome. But the tradition which the Church preserus is the very depositum of our B. Saviour, whether it concern faith or manners, practical or speculativ belief, (and no conceptions of private or human judgements) and therefore in all honesty to be preserved entire by the trustee of our Lord, who committed it unto his church with this caution that not one jota or apex thereof should be altered. And therefore that Pope who would not declare against his conscience, although heaven and earth should come together, did no more than what his Lord and Master had said before him. Heaven and earth shall pass away, my word shall not pass not one jota orapex thereof, Luc. 21. And it was a doubls madness in Harry the vl, doing himself evil to expect the church of God should say it was good. Nor be there Madam in Faith any superfluous parts, but the whole body of it hangs so concatenated and cemented together, that the taking away of any one particls would ruin the whole fabric; nor will you find in faith any portion less strong than another, but all equally invincible: Some may be more leading points, whereupon others depend, and more material in their quality; but in respect of our belief the least hath as much firmness of truth as the greatest. And wtsoever sophistry may seem to shake any one, apply the like engine to any other and in shall do as much: that is to say, in very truth, nothing at all, whatsoever it may appear to do in self beguiling minds. Wherefore Madam bereaving me of any of my faith you rob me of all; for it is an  rule in faith what the Apostle also does as in a good sense it may be applied unto manners. Qui delinquit in un●, factus est omnium reus, Jam. 2.10. He that fails in one is made guilty of all.  
This you would easily understand if you would consider how we received our faith and Christian doctrine. For it was all equally handed to us at once, and that from the authority of one and the same original; and it was extant in the world before any Scriptures were penned. And these sacred Scriptures, and other pious Books, and also all general counsels that have ever been celebrated in the Church were form afterwards, directed, swayed, rectified, and ordered by this rule of Traditional doctrine committed to the Church and kept by her. So that issuing conformably from one and the same sours, all points of faith have an equal proportion of truth, however they may differ in their own material weight. The intrinsical valiew of some articles may infer more of necessity and obligation to an explicit belief and practice, but the least and smallest points do with as much right as the greatest exclude a positiv misbeleef. I am not bound to know or practice all things of the church's doctrine, but I am bound not to disallow condemn or reject any of her traditional Christianity has been equally handed from age to age unto us. He that formally rejects any thing of this as falls, doth virtually deny all the rest; sigh one and the same veracity delivered all. No man's private reason invented any part of my belief, and therefore no man's reason can reject it. Nay the highest points are oftimes most contingent, and consequently the least capable of a proof, as God's incarnation, passion, and resurrection: and if man's conceits be once permitted to intermeddle & determine of the lesser or greater probability of points, and cast away at his pleasure what himself thinks unlikly, he will undoutedly go on from one negation to another, till all be overthrown.  
It may chance, that in discoursing I may say sometime that all the articles of our Catholic faith be taken out of Scripture wherein they be implicitly contained: But in this I do but speak with the vulgar and according to the capacity of hearers; and 'tis indeed true in this since, for that all Catholic belief is conformable to those sacred writings. But in very truth (to speak with wise men as well as we do think and ever shall believe with them) the Scriptures themselves (those I mean principally which make up the new Testament) were drawn by the rule of our traditional doctrine & explicit faith, and not our explicit faith gathered out of them.  
This may appear by part of my former discourse, wherein I declared that the penning of Scriptures was mere accidental and casual; and that all our traditional faith was more ancient than Scripture, and altogether independent of it; So that Scripture and tradition go indeed hand in hand together as a joint rule of faith; yet so, as that Scripture gives tradition the right hand as being its elder and judge of itself, aswell as as cojudg with it of all other doctrines. For both Gospels and Epistles written in Apostles name were so far approved or rejected by the Church (however they came equally armed with Apostolical names prefixed before them) as they were found consonant or dissonant to the church's tradition. For there were more Gospels written than the four we have, and far more Epistles than those the church admitted to her cannon.  
And this is the reason: why the Apostles themselves and Disciples met together, to try whether the preach and writings of all their missionaries were punctually conformable to the tradition they had received; from which meeting S. Paul himself (though an Apostle not of men, neither by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, Gal. 1.1.) Yet would he not be exempted from that meeting. After three years saith he, I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode with him fifteen days, Gal. 1.18. Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation, and comunicated unto them that Gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run or had run in vain, Gal. 2.1.2. By which I think it may be gathered that the church is above the Scripture and of greater authority than either Paul or Barnabas or any wtsoever single man and member of the Church, sigh she judges every one's doctrine, to the approbation or rejection of it: For a judge is more noble than the thing which is subject to his censur, the rule than the thing examined and ruled by it, and to giv an approbation is in that formality more excellent than to receiv it.  
Neither was ever any general council called together to teach the church her doctrine. But upon the rising of heresies, judging by the rule of their tradition the Prelates in council confirmed the Catholics in the way they found them in, and declared against heretical innovations that they might desist from further commotion.  
This rule of tradition found in the hands & practice of Christians dispersed over the earth, left them by their forefathers, could not fail so long as it was found universally agreeing in the whole Catholic body which is animated by the spirit of infallibility: especially being strengthened by testimony of Apostolical writings which were nothing but a part of the church's tradition copied out, or the fathers that succeeded them, or other monuments that were yet remaining amongst them. As for example the Christians found an injunction of praying for the dead upon the very walls, windows, graustones and monuments of their deceased forefathers, commended also unto them both by teachers, their living books, and by books, their dead teachers; and all children found their parents in the belief and practice of it: And therefore it was concluded that it could be no other than as it was then esteemed an article of pure Christianity; sigh the whole body of Christians than present held it so, their forgoers and fathers delivered it, sacred Scriptures sufficiently insinuated it, Catholic writings and monuments confirmed and commended it unto them.  
So that Madam that piece of popery you would take from me, being a part of this Catholic tradition, will be as hardly wrested from me as the Gospel itself, which the same tradition has delivered as a copy conformable for so much as it is, unto itself the first and universal rule of faith; by which pape himself and all general counsels are guided, & so subject unto it that they can act nothing against it: as may appear by the proceed of the Catholic church from its very first birth and uprising unto this present day. Pope john the 22d. a learned man, & much given to reading found in many places of the Greek and Latin fathers, as also in texts of sacred Scripture, as he conceived, that the souls of Christians deceased went released out of purgatory thence into some place of repose on this side heaven and eternal bliss, where they expected the consummation of their number; that all the Catholic body might at the end of the world enter paradis together. This opinion by the multitude of autorities and arguments appeared unto him so probable, that he sent it to some Christian Universitys, to have their judgement, if that were not indeed Christian belief. But they risen up against it, and rejected it as dissonant to tradition. For the Pape, though he be Overseer of the whole church, yet being but one single man he cannot of himself discern the universality of a tradition so well as the whole Catholic body may do, and therefore he never defines faith but with that Body conciliarly assembled: and if himself i'th' interim should light upon an opinion, how probable soever it may seem by human arguments yet must he himself as well as other Christians lay it aside if it be confronted by Catholic tradition the great and unresistable Rule of Christianity, & resign himself. And it seems a principle of faith had delivered unto Christians this belief, that a soul once expiated goes to heaven. Pope John though he had reason to suspect so much, so that he might have abstained from propounding his thesis: yet he did not propound it in counsels where faith is determined, but in Schools where opinions are disputed, and distinguished from faith; and upon that account was he justly to be excused. Yet was that good Prelate so tender conscienced, that he is said to have asked the world forgiveness at his death, if they took any offence thereat; adding wthal that he did it only to give them occasion to search more narrowly whether the opinion were not consonant to tradition, although it had not been yet heeded.  
If then neither Pape nor council can go contrary to the received ways of the Church in any thing: how shall I be able to do it, except I make shipwreck of my faith as S. Paul affirms Hymeneus to have done even by one falls opinion, though otherwis a Christian. 1 Tim. 1.19. For a lesser leak will drown a ship, if it be not stopped or pumped out; so will any one error in faith sink a self opiniating spirit. For in the least we shall as truly resist God the first revealing verity as in the greatest: and to gainsay him in any little thing who is equally infallible in all, is no les than blasphemy and an insolence intolerable. Sith it stands not with his deity to be mistaken in the smallest matter, or misled his church therein.  LA. 
The church me thinks for the quiet and safety of a kingdom might well condescend to some opinions that be not so much material, put case they were falls: for in evils the les is to be chosen, and that opinion cannot be so bad as the ruin of a whole Kingdom.  KN. 
The Church being a just depositary cannot teach otherways than she has received in any affair. Besides Christ will have his spous to be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, Eph. 5.27. and that opinion being against her tradition, it cannot but make a wrinkle or spot or some such thing at least in her. 'tis sacrilege with us to rob or steal any thing out of a material temple; what then would it be to purloin the Church's doctrine. To rend her own seamles garment or make the least hole in it, were an action unbeseeming the wisdom and modesty of the heavenly spous. She will never do it, nor no member of her body, (such as by God's grace I am) can do it without death and ruin to itself. Try that will; whosoever entertains but one particular misbeleef, he shall soon find that being thereby separated from the Catholic body, he or his successors will soon attempt another, and never lin till all be laid waist. Besides the Church being but a depositaty, or keeper of the doctrine committed to her charge, hath not power over it to exhang, distrain or make it away at her pleasure, against the rules of honesty. And if she should to content one sort of innovatours, change or relent in one thing; others that would innovat in another may justly challenge the same favour, and what should she then have had remaining to herself after so many innovations made by heretics in so many ages? I think very little or nothing at all by this time.  
'tis worth your consideration to ponder this. For so you may perceiv both the integrity of this immaculate spous in conserving the doctrine wherewith she has been entrusted entire and wholly sincere: and the madness of all sectaries, who would each in their wild fansies have the church's compliance with them to her own ruin: and being denied, flew out into all exorbitances against her, and forfeited at once by their self opinions and obstinacy both the title of Catholic they had till then enjoyed, and the security they had in the church's bosom. This is a worthy and profitable speculation. And therefore I shall endeavour to speak thereof, with as much order & method as can well be used in a matter of such disorder as the confused heap of heresies jumbled together may admit.  
THe Church's doctrine is partly about the creation and Scriptures of the old Testament; partly about our redemption, and things peculiar to Christianity, their persons or places, precepts or counsels, vices or virtues, Sacraments, and works, either moral, natural or political; in all which several heretics have at times sought to bring in innovations; which had the church complied wthall, she had had little or nothing left her by this time. Nay she should have contradicted herself continually, and said and denied the same things.  
The extravagancies concerning the creation, either opposed the authority of canonical books, or judgd amiss of the divine nature, angels and souls, the beginning of the world, the condition of Adam and Eve our first parents, Melchisedek and the like things which were antecedent to our redemption.  
Carpocrates and Cerdon in the time of pope Hygin rejected all the old Testament; Ebion on the other side made the old Testament to be of equal authority with the new, and out of the new he cast forth all S Paul's Epistles as erroneous. Cerdon and Martion disallowed all the Gospels besides S. Luke. Cerinthus all but S. Matthew: the Alogians received all but S. john. Luther cast away S. james Epistle, and the books of Maccabees; though he knew that not only S. Austin but the whole council of Carthage had received them as canonical. Severus the Acts of the Apostles. Apelles taught that the Prophets spoke contradictories and lies; Montanus, that they understood not what they said; though they are called seers for their understandig, Isa. 1. and are said to speak as inspired by the holy Ghost, 2. Pet. 1. With which of these should the church comply? and how.  
The Gnostics would have two Gods, one from whence issue good things, the other author of evil. The Anthropomorphits in the time of pope Damasus would have God to be truly corporeal as man is. The Armenians because God had said that Cain should not be slain by any man, would needs have him a liar, because Cain slew himself. Sabellius in the time of pope Sixtus 2. would not admit any more than one person in God▪ Arrius in pope Sylvesters time opposed the equality of the three divine persons. The Alogians acknowledged not the Son of God to be the word. The Ignoites maintained that Christ was ignorant of some things, in particular of the day of judgement. Macedonius in the time of pope Liberius made the Holy Ghost inferior to the Father and Son, not of the same essence with them, but a creature. Petrus Abaylardus said that the Holy Ghost was the soul of the world. The Greeks that he proceeded not from the Father and Son. Abaylardus again, that power was not appropriated but proper to the Father, wisdom to the Son, and bounty to the Holy Spirit.  
The Manichees contended that the devil is evil by his own nature and not made so by his fall. Origen, that the devils should at length be delivered from hell. Hermannus Risswick in the year 1512. held with much stiffness that neither the good Angels nor bad were created of God. The church of God resisted all these: could she do otherwise?  
Others denied the creation of the soul immediately by God; Seleucus affirming that it is made by Angels, of spirit and fire. Tertullian, that the soul of the Son is made by the soul of his Father, as his body by his body. The Gnostics on the other side, said it was made of the substance of God himself: which was afterwards defended by the Manichees the wild offspring of Manes a Persian, who affirmed himself to be both Christ & the Paraclet too, & sent out his twelv Disciples about the world to spread abroad his haeretical dogmes, who were much multiplied in the time of pape Foelix. Tertullian thought that the souls of wicked men were after death turned into devils; which surely is an error if he speak of a physical and not of a moral turning. The Arabians on the other side affirmed that all souls quite perish with their body: which atheism was also defended by the above named Rissnick the Hollander. The Albigenses in the time of Pope Jnnocent 3. averd according to Pythagoras his doctrine that souls pass from one body to another. Origen, that they were created before the body, and imprisoned therein for some offence committed; which opinion is assuredly against the common judgement of catholics. The gnostics, that all bruit beasts were masters of understanding and reason. The church if she had desired to have done it, would have found something to do to comply with all these men.  
Seleucus and Hermias would have the matter whereof the world was made to be coeternal with God and not created. Foelix a Manichean affirmed the same of the Earth. Others of Water. The Albanenses said, that the world should never end. Simon Magus, as also the Gnostics & Manichees said that the world was made of the ill God, and not by the good one; and that corporal creatures and man's body were therefore evil in themselves and in their own substance. Florinus in the time of Pope Eleutherius, taught that God (whom he acknowledged to be both one & good,) did notwthstanding evil things with a positiv purpose of i'll, as to harden men's hearts & deceiv them. Coluthius an Egyptian on the other side denied God to inflict so much as the evil of punishment. Tatianus in the time of Pope Julius the first, affirmed that Adam and Eve were for their sin perpetually damned. And yet notwthstanding wisdom is said to have brought him who was first form and father of the world, out of his sin. Sap. 10. Origen, that Adam lost by sin the image of God; which was an error surely, if he spoke properly of his image that is founded in nature, and not of similitude founded in grace and blessedness. Pelagius in the time of Honorius and Theodosius the younger, avouched that Adam died not through demerit of his fault, but condition of nature, and so had died although he had not find. The Armenians, inhabitants of Asia betwixt Taurus and Caucasus after their separation from the Catholic church (which happened as I remember upon the council of Chalcedon wherein Eutiches Abbot and Dioscorus Bishop of Constantinople were condemned, who's conciliary acts the Armenians would not receiv but made themselves a primate of their own) they fell into many errors; amongst which one was, that Adam and Eve if they had not sinned had never engendered children; and therefore they held marriage to be unlawful. Philaster mentions others who maintained that Adam and Eve before they had sinned were blind. Thes be blind guides for the church of Christ to follow. How many ways should she turn to trace all these men's steps. In a a word, (not to insist longer upon the old Testament) S. Austin and S. Epiphanius in their Books of Heresys mention some who taught that Melchisedeck was not a pure man but some divine virtue or Christ himself. 'tis easy to say any thing of every thing.  VIC. 
O the father, what a number of pretty opinions be here. Truly I find in my heart to hold some of them. They were most witty interpreters of Scripture. Pray go on sweet Sr Harry, this is the best discourse you ever made yet, go on, it delights me exceedingly, according as it is written Thy lips drop as the honey comb, Cant. 4. The more you speak the more my appetit increases.  MIN. 
Pray Sr let us break this discourse which I was not ware of, and come to matter I have furnished myself wthall for your conversion. This talk corrupts my wife.  VIC. 
Earth to earth, and ashes to ashes. Pray be content & let me be corrupted then. Thou fool that which thou sowest is not quickend except it die. Look in the 15. c. of the Corinthians, and expound me that place. And then tell me first, if in right Logic corruption go not before generation; tell me secondly who is that same Thou fool.  LA. 
I could willingly have Sr Harry to go on in this his speech, for it is not altogether unprofitable to hear it, and I conceiv not dangerous to us. For nothing (I hope) can hurt such as be well confirmed in their religion.  VIC. 
No forsooth, for it is written of protestants & Independents, If they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them, Mar. 16.  KN. 
The errors and wild opinions that have rose in Christianity about the particulars of the new Testament have been so many and various in several ages of the church, that it is hard to bring them into method. Our Doctors set them down in every age as they risen; naming with them the Catholic divines who wrote against them, the counsels that condemned them, the time they lasted, and the mischiefs they did in the world. I shall endeavour as well as I may to reduce them all according to my forementiond method unto three sorts; errors namely against persons, places and actions of Christian faith. Persons, as Christ our Lord, the blessed Virgin Mary, S. John, the Saints, Pope, Counsels, etc.  
As concerning Christ our Lord 

I. Ebion about the time of Pape Cletus maintained that Christ our Lord was but pure man; against whom S. John, entreated by the Bishops and Priests of Asia wrote his Gospel. With Ebion joined Cerinthus and Carpocrates; and after them Theodotus of Byzantium who being under persecution denied Christ; also Paulus Samosatenus in Syria under Pape Victor; with his disciple Photinus.  
II. Others on the other side denied him to have any human nature at all; as Cerdon in the time Pape Higin; and the Proclianites, people of Galatia, who taught that Christ came not in flesh.  
III. Apelles after them said that Christ took not flesh of his mother, but of the elements; which at his resurrection he rendered again to the world, entering heaven without any flesh or body at all.  
iv The Manichees affirmed his body was fantastical: so also Priscillianus, who therefore neither heeded his nativity nor resurrection 5. Valentinus contemporary with Cerdon; that the body of Christ was no true body, but heavenly, which passed through his Virgin mother as through a pipe.  
VI Apollinaris of Laodicea in Syria in the time of Constantius son of Constantin the Great, that Christ in his incarnation converted some part of the divine word into flesh, and so took not flesh of the Virgin. S. Athanasius, Ambrose and Cyrill wrote against this heresy.  
VIII. Nestorius' Bishop of Constantinople in the time of Emp. Theodosius the younger taught, that there were in Christ not only two natures, but two persons also; After him dead and condemned in the council of Ephesus, Gnapheus Bishop of Antioch renewed his error; and was himself also condemned in the fift Synod of Constantinopl.  
IX. On the otherside Eutiches' abbot of a certain monastery in Constantinople in the time of Pape Leo the first, taught that there were in Christ not only one person, but one nature also. This Eutiches was wthstood by Flavian Bishop of the place who condemned his opinion: whereupon arose a great feud among the Christians of the East, some defending others condemning Eutiches; and in that tumult a Synod was appointed at Ephesus by Theodosius junior, wherein Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria who was himself infected with Eutiches his error, presided; there Eutiches was restored and Flavian condemned: This was the second Ephesin Synod which all Catholics abhorred, being made without the presence or appointment of the Pape, and consisting only of men infected with Eutichism. But the heresy was afterward judged and condemned in a legal council at Chalcedon, and also an Ephesin council called the third Synod about the end of their decrees.  
X. Arrius and after him Apollinaris maintained that Christ had only a body and not a soul: against this also is the said Chalcedon and Ephesin council in 13. cap. of their Decrees, as also a Roman council under Pape Damasus.  
XI. Macarius' Bishop of Antioch with his Monothelits affirmed there were in Christ but one will: for which he was condemned in the sixth Constantinopolitan Synod under Pape Agatho about the year 698.  
XII. Basilides, in the Apostles time and after him Marcus and the Marcites said that Christo was not crucified, but Simon Cyreneus who carried his cross. S Paul was of another mind, we preach Christ crucified, 1 Cor. 1.  
XIII. Bassus about the Apostls times, taught that salvation was not to be hoped for, either in Christ's corporal presence or Majesty: And a long while after him Petrus Abailardus, that the Son of God was not incarnate to the end he might redeem man, neither had Satan ever any right in man. This heresy as it is against the Nicen crede, so also is it opposed by a Crede made in the Constantin council called the second Synod, and by the Ephesin council called the third Synod. ult. o. Decretor. and by the Chalcedon council called the fourth Synod.  
XIV. Petrus Joannis, averd that Christ on the cross was gored with the Soldier's Lance whilst he was living, and not after his death: this opinion being contrary to Gospel was dashed in the council of Vienna under Pope Clement the fift.  
XV. Cerinthus affirmed that Christ was not yet risen from the dead. But than saith the Apostle, Our faith is in vain, 1 Cor. 1.    
These be the principal heresies I read of concerning Christ our Lord, contrary to the church's doctrine; which teacheth that Christ our Lord was perfect God, and perfect man, being one person in two natures, the one divine by eternal generation received from the Father of light and being, the other human from the Virgin Mary, consisting of a true body and perfect soul; unto which two natures he had answerably two wills divine & human; the human nature hypostatically united to God was nailed to the cross for our reconciliation, and after he had rendered up his spirit, gored with a lance; which nature after our Lord's resurrection ascended up into heavenly glory.  
Concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary ever most highly reverenced under God by all Christians upon earth, till Luther opened to this wicked world a door of blasphemy, I find few or no ancient heresies at all. Good S. Denis the Areopagit having the happiness to see her while she was yet living, is said to have been so astonished at the unusual Majesty of that sacred person that he is reported to have said, that if Catholic faith had not taught him otherwise he should without any demur have adored her as a deity. I have read also of some amongst the ancient Christians that were blamed by the Catholic Prelates for some excess of devotion towards that sacred Virgin; as if they had held her a deity by supreme adoration and incense; but I have forgot their names; I suppose being better advised by their Bishops, they soon conformed themselves to that reverence was due to so blessed an instrument of our welfar, and so the error was redressed. But who should dare to disable or diminish either in word or deed that divine Virgin I never read of any who bore the name of Christian (according to her own prophecy in Gospel, Lo from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed) until Helvidius contemporary with S. Jerom was bold to say, that after the birth of Christ she accompanied S. Joseph: which all Christians ears abhorred, the whole church ever reverencing her as perpetual Virgin, both before, and in, & after childbirth: for which virginity & solitud our Lord upon the cross committed her to the care of S. John the Evangelist, saying to him, Ecce mater tua. The body of our Lord being indeed of so venerable a sanctity, that he would not that any should so much as lie in his sepulchre, much less in the temple of his nativity. I do not find that either Luther or Calvin vented any blasphemy against this Venerable Creature: but followers of heresy do some of them out go their leaders.  
Some Manichees held that S. John Baptist (that glorious morning star) was damned for not believing in Christ, as Bernard de Luxenburg recounts in his Catalogue of Heretics. Yet Christ himself testified that there was not amongst men a greater than he.  
Concerning saints in general, their worship and power: 

I. That the saints in heaven are not to be honoured or prayed unto, was the heresy of Eustachius condemned in the council of Gangres c. 20. decret. and after him Vigilantius, Wicleph and Luther. This heresy is also judged in the council at Orleans, c. 23. decret.  
II. The Lollards in England following Wicleph, and before him Vigilantius who was a French Priest, and before him Eunomius taught that the Relics of Saints were not to be kept or reverenced. S. Jerome risen up against this heresy, and the council of Lateran under Pape Innocent the third censured it.  
III. That no true miracles are done at Saints shrines was stiffly maintained by the Waldenses a company of men no les insolent than ignorant, and indeed plain idiots, who denied any Miracles ever to have been wrought in the Church, not knowing perhaps that our Lord had said, In my name they shall cast out devils, Mar. ult.    
As concerning other persons in the church, Bishops, Priests, judges, Magistrates, Religious. 

I. Wicleph following the simple Waldenses, and Huss following Wicleph taught, that all Bishops are equal in authority and jurisdiction. Luther being excommunicated by Pape Leo the tenth for his innovations and pertinacy therein, following Huss said that the Pape was no more than another Bishop. In the same error for some time were the Grecians who for the heresies of Nestorius condemned in the Ephesin Synod, and of Dioscorus and Eutiches condemned in the Chalcedon council had separated themselves from the unity of the Church; as also the Armenians who had done the like upon contempt of the decrees of Chalcedon: but in the council of Florence under Pape Eugenius the fourth, both the Greeks and Armenians after a long dispute submitted themselves to the Church: and in that council the Papes primacy was confirmed & acknowledged by all both Greeks and Latins.  
II. The Pseudapostoli, Wicleph and Huss avouched, that both Prelate and Prince, by any mortal sin forfeited all their authority; condemned in the council of Constance, Sess. 8. as also in the council of Trent both under pope Paul, Sess. 7. and julius, Sess. 4.  
III. The Waldenses, denied he had power of indulgences, or remission of temporal penalties; censured by the council of Constance, Sess. 8.  
VI The Pseudapostoli denied any obedience to be due either to Pape or Prelates, or any one but Christ: as also the Beguins and Bogards taught that a man that is come to the state of perfection is bound to obey not man.  
V The simple Waldenses and their ape Wicleph affirmed, that neither the Apostles nor their successors had authority to make any decretals or cannon Law. Against these is the council of Vienna under Pope Clement the fift, and the council of Constance, Sess. 8. & 15.  
VI The Vadians or Anthropomorphits and after them the Waldenses held that neither pape nor church could enjoy any temporal possessions. The same mischievous doctrine was taught afterward by Wicleph the poor men of Lion's shadow, and after him by Luther that grand licker up of excrements, who by that doctrine invited the Germane Princes to rob the goods of the Church. This error is condemned also in the said council of Constance, Sess. 8.  
VII. john de Wessalia condemned at Mentz in the time of the emperor Frederick the third taught that both Pape & Church might err.  
VIII. Donatus in Africa, in the time of Pope Liberius and emperor Constantius taught that none but good men were wthin the church. This Donatus taking it ill that Cecilianus was ordained Bishop of Carthage, he calumniated him in things he could not prov or make good, for the which he was declared by the judges a juggling knave: upon this ignominy he divided himself from the Church, giving it out that the true Church was only on his side, and not with them that favoured Caecilianus; and so going on from one thing to another infected almost all Africa in the time of Pape julius. This heresy of his was taken up by Rogatus and the Circumcellions, and afterward by Huss and Luther; and written against by S. Austin in very many places, and condemned at last by the council of Constance, Sess. 15.  
IX. That the noble senate of Christian Prelates met together in general counsels erred in their decrees and canons was the opinion first of Arrius, who was himself condemned in the council of Nice; then of Nestorius who had been censured in the council of Ephesus; then of Eutiches and Dioscorus who had been judgd in the council of Chalcedon; then of Huss the Boheman & Wicleph who was cast in the council of Constance; & lastly of Luther whose wicked doctrine was anathematisd in the council of Trent. This heresy (if it may not rather be styled blasphemy against Christ and his church whom he promised to confirm in all truth) is largely confuted by john Bishop of Rochester, jodocus Chlitoveus, William Ockam, john Eckius, and several other Catholic doctors.  
X. That all Priests are equal, and a Bishop is nothing above an ordinary Priest was the error first of Aerius, then of the Waldenses, Wicleph and Luther; condemned by S. Austin in his book of heresies, c. 53. Whether Episcopacy be another order or only another degree in the same order, 'tis certain that in the old Law the chief priest or Bishop had distinct vestments, and entered the Sancta sanctorum which others did not; and in the new Testament a Bishop constitutes Priests, Tit. 1. not contrary; nor is any Disciple in the Acts of the Apostles read to have used imposition of hands, but only the Apostles. And so the second council of Hispala declares that confirmation belongs only to the Bishop.  
XI. Luther more fond added that all Christians are equally Priests, forgetting that Holy Scripture expressly speaks of segregating or setting apart some from the rest to that function; I left thee at Crete that thou shouldst constitute Priests, Tit. 1.  
XII. The filthy fellow added that Priests ought not to be unmarried or separated from women (wherein he exceeded jovinian who indeed equalled marriage with virginity, but blamed none for remaining single, himself living so to avoid the troubles of wedlock.) This he taught the better to justify himself who being a Priest and a Religious man of the Hermits of S. Austin had revolting seduced a Nun. The same was done & taught by Occolompadius who had been a monk of S. Brigit, Bucer a Dominican friar, & the rest of Luther's retinue. Impiously without doubt for it was prohibited a Priest to marry in the very beginning of the church by the canons of the Apostles, can. 27. and afterwards by the Neocesarian council, c. 1. decret. and it appears in sacred Scripture itself that such was the practice of primitiv times.  
XIII. The Pepusians of old promoted women not only to the Priest but Priesthood too.  
XIV. All universities or general studies for clergy men are condemned by Wicleph, as brought into the church by paganism; forgetting, that the Apostle exhorts Timothy a good Christian to remain permanent in the things he had learnt, 2. Tim. 1. and that in the very Apostles days the Christians constituted schools at Antioch, Act. 14. and afterwards at Alexandria, wherein Panthenus was first perfect, then Clemens, than Origen. And therefore the council of Constance justly condemned this error amongst the rest, sess. 8. against the 29. articls. XV. As also that other opinion of his, wherein he taught that superiors, be they Ecclesiastical Prelates or Kings, may be punnisht by subjects at their pleasure, by with drawing tithes or tribute, or otherways, sess. 8. against his 27. art. Indeed the opinion is a way to all rebellion and disorder in church and state.  
XVI. Finally that no degree may scape, the Waldenses and Luther inveighed bitterly against religious orders, as the invention of the devil, affirming that the founders of them were damned for it if they repent not, and that none could be saved in them: which desperate madness was censured also in the said council of Constance, Sess. 8. And strongly confuted, by Chlitoveus, Roffensis Albertus, Thomas Waldensis a Carmelit, and before them by S. Thomas and S. chrysostom.  
XVII. To prevent all danger on any hand for any heresy or disorder, the Waldenses spread abroad that no judge can condemn any man to punishment. But they either forgot or simple souls never knew that S. Paul saith, if ye do evil fear; for the magistrate bears not the Sword in vain.  
XVIII. There were others who taught that no heretics were to be punished but left to God's judgement.  
19 The Rhetorii says Philaster, affirmed that all heretics thought aright.  
XX. Nicolaus Eimericus reports of others in the time of Pape Gregory the eleaventh, who affirmed that any one that commits a mortal sin is an heretic.  
XXI. S. Austin testifies of the heretics called Ophitae, that they worshipped the Serpent that beguiled Eve; and the Caiani respected Judas for a Saint, for that he was cause of our redemption.    
These be some extravagant opinions of sectaries concerning several persons in the church, kings and subjects, religious men, clergy men, priests, students, bishops, the Senate of prelate's, pope's, Saints, Christ and what not; so senseless, so wild, so inconsistent, so contradictory, that the wisdom and integrity of the Church of God were not able to suffer, much less approve them; being contrary many of them to common honesty, others to right reason, all of them to Christian faith. How shall the immaculate spous comply? heaven and hell may sooner come together I think.  VIC. 
'tis a marvellous thing Sr Harry, you can have all thes opinions in your head, and hold none of them. What difference is there betwixt having and holding. If I should ever think of them, they would mingle with my creed. I can believe any thing if it be not popery; and take all that comes, as I did my Husband, to have and to hold for better and for worse, as it is written.  MIN. 
Come, you speak like one of the foolish women.  VIC. 
How did you speak when you took me with the very same words, and said with a blithe and buxom countenance I john. You have been a year or two at a pagan university, where you learned to worship Judas for a Saint, & you are so proud upon it: deny if you dare that I understand the bible which is the highest book in the world: wherein then can you exceed me? 'tis true, you are a parson; but is it not written, I have more understanding than my teachers, Psa. 119.99. You would fain come in with your few texts against Sr Harry that you have been scribbling out of a concordance, being out of all patience that his Discourse keeps you back. Pray be content, 'tis as pleasing to me to hear talk of these men, as of my own father and mother that begat me, expect your cue good sweet Husband. Your hour is not yet come, as 'tis written.  LA. 
'tis agreed upon Sr Harry that you proceed in your discourse. Mr Doctor in the end will I believe make use of it all to his own advantage.  KN. 
I have declared some several odd conceptions of men concerning sundry persons in the church. Others there be concerning places, as the temple or place of worship; purgatory after life; hell and heaven: which opinions maintained with pertinacy caused the authors thereof to be cast out of the Catholic body of God's church wherein they had been members.  


I. Eustachius derided all Saints temples. The Waldenses afterward would have all churches taken away as too much straightening the majesty of God whose temple is the wide world. The Pseudapostoli added that a consecrated church is no more worth than a swine sty; as also Zisca the German, who with his companions whom he called Taborites from mount Tabor where Christ was transfigured, spoilt and defaced all holy places they came near: The council of Gangres defined against this madness, c. 5. decret.  
II. The same Waldenses would not endure that time should be spent in saying the canonical hours in the church: and their ape Wicleph gave his reason for it, because forsooth it is not fit that Christians should be tied to prayer at any time. This reason, if it were worth any thing would destroy the Sabbath. But all singing in the church they scofft at, as nois made to Baal. The Arrians before them disprooud singing in Catholic churches; but their reason was, because of so many Hymns and anthems made in the honour of Christ against their impious opinion. Against all thes is the council of Gangres, c. 30. decret.  
III. That all images are to be taken out of churches was stiffly maintained both by the said Waldenses and their squire Wicleph: For which heresy long before their time Leo the third, emperor in Constantinople was excommunicated by Pape Gregory the third: yet notwthstanding the emperor Constantin the fift, and emperor Leo the fourth his son adhered still to it; but after his death Irene his wife ruling the empire in the name of the Infant Constantin the sixth, obtained the second Nicen counsel to be called, where by three hundred and fifty Bishops the heresy was condemned; though Constantin the sixth being of age would not submit to the council: which was one of the mainest causes of the dislike and grudge between the Latin & Greek emperor's. The error was afterward condemned in the council of Frankford under pape Adrian the first.  
iv The adoration given in Catholic temples unto the cross and crucifix, the above named john Wicleph an english Priest who lived about the year 1380. would by all means have taken away; But Thomas Waldensis his country man & almost contemporary still confuted him and his blind Lugdunian guides, who were also judgd & condemned by all the Prelates in Constance.  
V There also was censured another error of theirs; that preaching in temples should be lawful for any, although prohibited by superiors.  
VI The said Wicleph denied tithes to be due to Priests, serving at the Altar, preaching and praising God; which error was also condemned in the 18 place at Constance. But this opinion he had from the Pseudapostoli whose ringleader was Gerardus Sagarellus of Parma who was burnt in the year 1260.  
VII. Both the Waldenses and Wiclevits blasphemd all benedictions of water, candls, palms, altars, chalices, churches; forgetting or not believing that every creature is sanctified by the Word of God and Prayer, 1. Tim. 4.  
VIII. No less peremptory was Wicleph, Huss and Luther against excommunications from church and altar, inflicted on scandalous sinners and obstinate Heretics, calling them the censures of Antichrist; not heeding that S. Paul himself practised it, I thought good saith he, to deliver him up to Satan, that his Spirit might be safe, 1. Cor. 5.  
IX. Finally all Christian burial in holy ground the said Waldenses contemned as impertinent and vain. These be the extravagant opinions concerning Temples.    
As for Purgatory: 

I. Some Greeks and Armenians avoucht there is no such place, wherein souls after their separation are purged from dregs contracted in the body. But the council of Florence under pope Eugenius the fourth confirmed the contrary Catholic doctrine.  
II. Luther afterward, although he held Purgatory, yet he had three errors concerning it: first he taught that souls there might themselves either merit or demerit; again that a soul there was not certain of his salvation; thirdly that a soul there, doth sin so long as it abhors those pains, and seeketh rest. The same authority from whence he had the belief of purgatory, might if he had listed have conserved him from these misbeleefs concerning it.  
III. That almsdeeds, prayers, pennances and Sacrifices made by the living for the dead and souls in purgatory, do nothing at all avail for their releasement; was the heresy and error first of Aerius, then of the Armenians, then of the Albigenses then of the Waldenses, and lastly of Luther. But it is confuted by S. Austin, S. Gregory, Theophylact and S. chrysostom. And four counsels have defined against it; Carthaginense quartum, c. 95. Valense, c. 4. decr. Toletanum, c. 22. and Florentinum for the union of the Greeks under pope Eugenius the fourth.    
As for Hell. 

I. Almaricus stiffly denied it; affirming there was no other hell, but only a man's own conscience guilty of sin; The Albanenses said that the punishments of hell were no other than what we suffer in this world: Hermannus Risswick without any exposition denied any such thing as hell at all.  
II. Origen taught that the pains of hell were not to be eternal. Both these fancies are against Gospel; and rejected by the council of Lateran under pope Innocent the third.    
Heaven the place of eternal bliss I make no doubt but that many men born Christians if they fell into heresies came at length to that Atheism as to deny it, sigh I meet with so many here in England who deride it as a fiction: But I have not read of any in authentic authors who did so: though concerning the resurrection unto that bliss, and final beatitud many are said to have held erroneously.  
As for Resurrection, there have been at times five erroneous opinions. 

1. The saducees amongst the Jews, and among the Christians, first Simon Magus, than Valentin, Apelles, Marcus and Cerdon, denied all resurrection of the flesh. Against these writes S. Paul. 1 Cor. 15.  
II. Eutichius Bishop of Constantinople taught that the body after its resurrection should be invisible and unpalpable. S. Gregory (not then Pope) sent thither ambassador from the Apostolic sea confuted him openly before Tiberius Constantin then emperor, so that Tiberius caused Eutichius his book to be burnt.  
III. Origen said that our bodies after resurrection should be still mortal, and after many ages fall to dust, never to rise more. Expressly against Scripture where 'tis said that mortal shall put on imortality, 1 Cor. 15.  
VI The Armenians, defended that all should rise again in man's sex. But if this had been true doctrine, then our Lord by saying so, had easilier answered the Sadduces argument, than by saying as he did, that none should marry, but they shall all be as the Angels of God, Math. 22. Lastly the same Armenians affirmed that our Lord risen not upon sunday, but on the Saturday before. Me thinks it should be a hard task for them to show how he risen the third day sigh he died on Friday.    
As for Beatitude. 

1. the Armenians, and after them Petrus Abailardus, a French man in the time of Pape Innocent the second; then Arnaldus Brixiensis, from whence perhaps came those heretics Arnaldistae excommunicated yearly at Rome in caena Domini; and lastly Almaricus, affirmed that the blessed in heaven do not see God's essence, but behold him in his creatures. S. Paul is contrary to these, Now we see by a mirror in an enigm, than we shall see face to face, 1 Cor. 13.  
II. Cerinthus would have heavenly beatitude to consist in the delights of the flesh, and that Christ's kingdom after the resurrection should be earthly: which error he drew from some carnal Jews, being himself contemporary with S. John the Apostle. But 'tis gainsayed by S. Paul, The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink but justice and peace and joy in the holy Ghost, Rom. 14. Papias Bishop of Hierapolis did indeed teach that Christ after the general resurrection should reign upon earth with his faithful retinue, who had been sufferers here, a thousand years; drawn to that opinion by such a speech in Apocalypses; c. 20. and after him Irneus, Apollinaris, Lactantius, Victorius Pictavensis. But they held not the same as Cerinthus: nor were pertinacious in their opinion against the church, which I think expounds that place of the blesseds reign with Christ according to the soul, from the hour of death to the general judgement: for there 'tis added Haec est resurrectio prima, this is the first resurrection, namely of the soul after the body's death.  
III. Origen taught that neither misery nor beatitude should be eternal; for he conceived certain alternations or vicissitudes of both; so that the blessed souls after some years should return to mortal bodies, and thence be called again to beatitude, in a kind of circle. But all Scripture is against this fancy. Between us and you is a great Chaos, so that such as would pass from hence to you, cannot &c. Luk. 16.  
iv That most perfect final beatitude is to be had in this life, was one of the errors of the Bogards and Beguins, religious men and women in Germany; censured as I remember in the council of Vienna under Pape Clement the fift. The Bogards suffered for their obstinacy, whereat the women affrighted submitted themselves and remain to this day, living honestly in a society without emission of any vow, so that when they pleas they may go forth and marry.  
V The same parties said, that an intellectual nature is blessed naturally in itself. It had been well, they had remembered that the grace of God is life eternal, Rom. 6.  
VI The Armenians taught that no soul is beatified before doomsday (as also some Greeks, adding that sinners are not punished till that day.) This is the opinion Pope John the 22. propounded to the University of Paris. But it was gainsayed by the council of Florence under Pope Eugenius the fourth, as contrary to the church's belief; and the Scripture itself does in a manner expressly refute it. We know if our earthly house of this habitation be dissolved, we have a house not made by hands eternal in the heavens, 2 Cor. 5. At least Catholic tradition which is the only interpreter of Scripture and judge of all controversies hath cast it.  
VII. That all shall be equal in glory was the paradox of Jovinian a Roman monk in the time of Pape Damasus and Siricius, who leaving his profession ran himself into many heresies: this opinion is no other; for there is one clarity of the Sun, another brightness of the moon, another of the Stars, & as one star differs from another in glory, so also shall be the resurrection of the dead Cor. 15. Jerom wrote two books against Jovinian; and this opinion is disabled by the authority of the council of Theles in Africa under Pape Siricius; & of Florence under Pape Eugenius the fourth.    VIC. 
You might Sir Harry have named my husband & me for many of these opinions without troubling yourself with such uncouth names; for we hold them too, and so long as God gives us life and health shall do so still; according as it is written, Hold that fast which thou hast, Rev. 3.11. Nay I hold others too which you now mentioned, though I never heard of them before according as it is written, We beseech you brethren that ye increass more and more, 1 Thess. 4.  LA. 
Pray S. Harry speak something concerning the Sacraments, and what devises have been about them.  KN. 
Madam I am now come to it. 

I. the heretics called Cathari denied all Sacraments; the Armenians, and long after them Martin Luther Father of the Protestants admitted some according to their own liking, but denied that any had intrinsecall virtue to confer grace. But the council of Trent under Pape Paul the third, sesse. 7. both defined the Sacraments to be seven in number according to the Catholic tradition, and to confer grace ex opere operato.  
II. That sacred things and spiritual gifts might be purchased with money was the error of Simon Magus, (and the action from him termed Simony) condemned in the 11 Toledan council, c. 8. decret. and before by S. Peter himself, Non est tibi pars, Act. 8.  
III. Luther taught that in no Sacrament was imprinted any character: contrary to the church's doctrine which teacheth such a seal to be made in baptism, confirmation and holy orders; confirmed by the council of Carthage, Florence and Trent under Paul the third. Sess. 7. can. 9    
In particular, concerning Baptism there have been many errors. 

I. Seleucus and Hermias Galatians baptised not in water, but fire. But the council of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined water to be the natural matter of Baptism.  
II. The Marcites, disciples of one Marcus a magician, about the Apostles time changed the form of Baptism, doing it In the name of the unknown Father of all things, and in truth the Mother of all, and in him who descended upon Jesus. For they held that God preached in the old law was not the Father of Christ, because he was unknown. The Cataphygians and Paulianists also did not baptise in the name of the Trinity as Catholics do, according to command of Gospel, Baptiseing them in the name of the Father Son, and holy Ghost, Mat. 28.  
III. The said Cataphygians baptised the dead: They had their name from the Province of Phrygia whence they came; their leader was Montanus (who called himself the Paraclet) and Prisca & Maximilla his two Prophetesses. The Marcionists did the same, who finding any to die unbaptised they put a living man under the hers of the dead, and asked him as if he were the dead man, if he desired to be baptised; answering yea, they baptised him for the dead, which thing they said S. Paul himself did practise, 1. Cor. 15. although Martion their leader is not read to have done any such thing: but few heretic's content themselves with the errors of their leaders. Martion himself was in the time of Antoninus Pius, his country Pontus, a great stoic Philosopher, and being converted to Christian faith, he followed the dogmes of Cerdon, intermingling many Philosophical things with his Christian religion, and coming to Rome he seduced many Catholics, where meeting with S. Polycarp, and ask him if he knew him, I know, quoth S. Polycarp, and do acknowledge the eldest son of Satan. But against this error both of the Marcionits' and Cataphygias is the definition of the third conncell of Carthage, where 'tis declared that neither the Eucharist nor baptism may be given to the dead.  
iv The Psallians and Euchitae attributed no virtue at all to Baptism, but made all sins to be razed only by Prayer: so likewise the Messalians and Enthusiasts. The Manichees also thought that baptism exhibited in water was worth nothing. The Albanenses & Albigenses likewise rejected baptism: & the Armenians took from the Sacraments all power of conferring grace. Against this heresy is the decree of the council of Florence under Eugenius the fourth.  
V Petrus de Bruis a Frenchman of Narbona, who was afterwards burnt in the Town of S. Giles, said and taught that baptism was of no avail to Infants that have not the use of reason. After him one Henricus bore his Standard, from whom the followers of the heresy were called Henricians and Brusians. After four hundred years the Anabaptists raised up the heresy again. But S. Denis the Areopagite witnesss that children were baptised in the Apostles time c. ult. Eccl. Hier. And S. Cyprian two hundred years after, and S. Austin after him testify that it was done in their days. And the Catholic practice is confirmed by the council of Lateran under Pope Innocent the third, by the council of Vienna under Clement the fift, and the council of Trent under Paul the third in two Sessions, 5. Sess. c. 4. 7. Sess. can. 19  
VI The Donatists rebaptised such as came over to their side: believing that such as came to the true church was to be baptised again. But the first council of Carthage, c. 1 decret. as also the council of Vienna under Pape Clement the fifth, and the council of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined this opinion as erroneous. S. Cyprian and other Bishops of Africa held also, that heretics coming to the Catholic church were to be rebaptised; But this they did not defend against the church with pertinacy as heretics did, but disputed it as a probable opinion not then in their days defined, and haply upon suspicion that heretics used not the right form and matter. One Baltasar a Dutchman of late held morover that all people are to be baptised again when they come to years of discretion, because he thought the baptism of infants were of no valiew. But faith teaches there is but one Baptism, Eph. 4. as there is but one death of Christ which it figureth: Do ye not know that so many as are baptised unto Christ, are baptised to his death, Rom. 6.3.  
VII. The Armenians taught that baptism ought to be conferred with the Eucharist; and that none can be validly baptised unless he be anointed with chrism. Claudius' Taurinensis held baptism without the sign of the cross imprinted on the forehead to be inefficacious. Indeed the church uses both the sign of the cross and crism: which the ancient Christians would by no means have omitted, and the minister of the Sacraments should sin in omitting those or other rites of the church; yet if in case baptism should be administered in the right matter and form without these, it would have its valiew; so the same church ever believed. And the Eucharist though haply it might be given to some with baptism, yet not of necessity; sigh baptism was instituted long before it.  
VIII. The Waldenses on the other side, affirmed that baptism by all means aught to be received without mixtur of holy oil. The leader of these so often named Waldenses was one Waldo of Lions in France and therefore they were sometime called Waldenses, sometime Pauperes Lugdunenses, the sect began about the year 1570. condemned at Rome in a general council.  
IX. That infants are not to be baptised was the assertion first of Pelagius, because he thought they had not original sin; and then of Wicleph, because he thought that the faith and prayers of their parents sufficed them. But the Milevitan council defined that baptism was absolutely necessary to infant's salvation, as also the council of Florence under Eugenius the fourth, & the council of Trent, Sess. 6. c. 4.  
X. Others there were on the other side, who held that a man in age and of mature judgement could no ways possibly be saved without baptism, how much soever he might be contrite in heart. But the said Tridentin council under Paul the third silences thes also, Sess. 6. c. 4.  
XI. Luther, Melanchthon and Bucer taught that baptism takes not away all sin, because concupiscence remains. But then baptism should not be a laver of renovation, Tit. 3. Nor should we by baptism be buried with Christ unto death, Rom. 6 Radical or habitual concupiscence is no sin at all except it be actuated by the consent of reason.  
XII. The Flagellantes maintained that in their time baptism of water had ceased, and baptism of blood succeeded; which thing say they was signified in Cana of Galilee, when at the end of the feast water was turned into wine: And so they went up and down France whipping themselves till the blood came: when they were told by their Catholic Prelates, that castigation of body was good, and allowable, and practised even by the best Christians, but it ought not be done with the prejudice of other parcels of faith, revealed in Gospel; they replied that the whole Gospel at their coming had ceased. These be the principal mistakes I have taken notice of concerning baptism.    
As for Confirmation (which ancient Christians called Consignation from the fact of the Bishop signing the forehead with crism) the Waldenses denied it to be a Sacrament. Wicleph their squire did not come home with them in this point, for he acknowledged it a Sacrament, but taught it might be conserd by any Priest. Against both these is the Ispalen council, c. 7. dec. the Tridentin under Paul the third, Sess. 7. can. 1. as also the Florentin, Toletan, third and fourth council of Carthage.  
As for Penance; Luther babbles oddly about sacerdotal absolution; affirming that it is not in itself necessary at all; and that 'tis efficacious not because 'tis given, but believed to be given, whether it be indeed given or no; and that a man believing himself to be absolved is absolved, whether he be so or no, although he have not so much, as contrition. The Tridentin counsel under pope Julius the third blasted this error, Sess. 4. can. 9 II. The same Luther added that a woman or child gave as good absolution as the Pape. III. Again he denied there were three parts of Penance, contrition, confession and satisfaction, as the church had taught. But the council of Florence under Eugenius, in their definition of faith about the Sacraments given to the Armenians defined the three parts according to Catholic faith: as likewise the council of Trent in the sixth session, c. 14. and again in its fourth session under Julius, c. 4. iv Novatus a priest in Rome was peremptory, that no penance wtsoever should ever procure remission to one that had fallen and finned mortally. The Roman council under pape Cornelius, of fifty Bishops and as many priests disabled this pernicious error; as also the council of Trent under Paul the third, the sixth session, in their doctrine of Justification, c. 4. V Luther affirmed that contrition or sorrow for sins arising from the fear of hell, was unprofitable; nay a mortal sin. Against this also is the council of Trent under pope Paul, Sess. 6. can. 8. and again under Julius, Sess. 3. c. 4. VI That confession to a priest was instituted by man and not by God, was taught by Petrus Osmensis reader of divinity in Spain; but he was condemned by Alphonsus Carillo Archbishop of Toledo, and Primate of Spain by the authority of pape Sixtus the fourth. Luther after him taught the same. Some oriental Heretics called jacobits said it was not necessary to confess to a priest but to God only: Wicleph thought it superfluous, because of contrition. Waldenses also took away all confession. But yet that this Catholic confession notwithstanding was instituted by Christ himself, S. Leo, S. Austin, S. Ambrose, S. Cyprian, S. Cyrill and all doctors agree; and that it was practised in the primitiv times is evident enough in the Acts of the Apostles, where 'tis said that the new converts or believers came confessing and declaring their deeds, Act. 19 And that 'tis necessary even with contrition is witnessed by the council of Constance, Sess. 8. and by the council of Trent under Julius the third, Sess. 4. can. 3.6. VII. Some Greeks also denied restitution to be necessary. But against the very law of nature which bids to do as we would be done by, & that famous aphorism of S. Austin, Non dimittitur peccatum nisi restituatur ablatum.  
Against the truth of the holy Eucharist there have risen many falls judgements. 

I. The Manichees made not their Eucharist of bare bread which they judged unclean, but mingld human seed with it; for which purification, they were called Catharists.  
II. The Greeks made their Eucharist in leavened bread, thinking our blessed Saviour had consecrated in leaven. And a very great dispute risen about it; three Gospels saying expressly that our Lord eat his last supper in the first day of azyms or unleaved bread, & S. john, the day before the Pasch; which the Latins interpreted to be the evening or beginning of the azyms, the Greeks the day before it, when leaven was eaten. He that thoroughly ponders the Gospel may see the Greeks were deceived: And though the church in her council of Florence under Eugenius the fourth for the Union of the Greeks, acknowledged that a consecration in fermented bread was valid, yet she binds all her priests to consecrat still in azym.  
III. The Waldenses in their Eucharist are said not to consecrat with the usual words of the Church, but with seven Pater Nosters.  
iv That in this Sacrament is not really contained the true body of Christ several Heretics at times have avoucht it; yet disagreeing in their manner and reasons for it. Nestorius' putting two persons in Christ, said in the Eucharist was indeed the true flesh, not of God but of pure man. Berengarius placed the flesh of Christ the Son of God there, not really, but only significatiuly. He was the first that broached this wicked fancy in the church; he was by nation a French man & deacon in the church of S. Maurice, a captious logician, otherwise wise of small learning in comparison of his great pride and turbulence, which proceeded so far that pope Leo the ninth to prevent the fall of Catholics called a council at Vercelles, where Berengarius not appearing was anathematised; Victor the second succeeding Leo celebrated another council at Tyrone by Hisdebrand a Roman Cardinal Precedent therein, wherein Berengarius appearing was confuted by many learned men, especially Lanfrank our bishop of Canterbury: but he returned afterwards to his vomit; for which cause pape Nicolas the second succeeding Victor congregated a council at Rome of a hundred and thirteen Bishops, where Berengarius being present recanted, and died penitentially. About a hundred years after, one Almaricus raised up the heresy again. A hundred years after him Wicleph revived it, & in this last age Oecolampadius followed by Suinglius and Calvin. But Luther cursed all these Sacramentaries with a bitter curs, as perverters of the last will and Testament of the Son of God.  
V Luther admitted the real presence of our Lord's body in the Eucharist, but the substance of the bread to remain also. This companation is rejected as not conformable to Catholic tradition by the council of Lateran under Innocent the third, & the council of Trent under julius, Sess. 3. c. 4.  
VI The Aquari● would not consecrat wine but water.  
VII. The Armenians on the other side put no water at all in the chalice, as catholics have ever done even from the first beginnings of the church, as witnesseth S. Cyprian.  
VIII. The Messalians, Euchetae or Enthusiasts, said that the Sacrament of the Eucharist was of no worth. They attributed so much to prayer as the Flagellantes did to their bloody discipline, that neither of them esteemed of any other observance. But the excellency of this Sacrament is maintained by the council of Florence under Eugenius, and the Tridentine under Julius, Sess. 3. c. 2.  
IX. Some Greeks are said to hold that this Sacrament consecrated in caena Domini is of more worth than any other day.  
X. Luther would that examination, discussion of sins and confession is no preparatory to this Sacrament but only faith. Expressly against Scripture, Let a man examine himself, etc. 1 Cor. 11.  
XI. Magister sententiarum makes mention of some, that held men comunicating in sin receiv not our Lord's body. But Judas it may easily appear received the same thing as the rest of the Apostles though not to the same effect, Joh. 13.  
XII. Many Lutherans have taught that the body of our Lord is only present in the use, and therefore not to be kept: yet this opinion is not to be found in Luther's work, though it be in Bucer.  
XIII. The Bohemians said that comunion is necessary to be given under both kinds, though they had not this conceit from John Huss their prophet, but one Petrus Dresensis a Germane, who being driven out of his country for the Waldensian heresy wherewith he was infected, went to Prague in Boemia where having perverted one Jacobellus Misnensis a notable preacher, by his means he drew after him great multituds of people from the Catholic body. Something more than a hundred years after, Luther infected Germany with the same error. But the church hath ever taught us, that Christ is wholly under any species for comunion; though she commands consecration to be made in both: for although whole Christ be under either either kind quoad continentiam, yet not quoad significationem; the consecration or immolation must signify the effusion of blood, but comunion is of the thing contaiend.  
XIV. The Quatradecimans would have the Christian Pask or Easter, (when this Sacrament was instituted and first celebrated) to be kept expressly on the fourteenth day of the first moon. This raised a controversy in the time of Pape Anicetus between the Oriental and Occidental Bishops; those standing for the 14 day, these for the Sunday following: and the contention lasted till the time of Pape Victor the first, who would have excommunicated all the Bishops of the East for their contumacy, had not Ireneus strongly wthstood it. It was raised again after Victor, but quite ended in the council of Nice, where it was decreed to be kept on the Sunday.  
XV. That Mass was not instituted by Christ, was the wicked belief of Wicleph condemned in the council of Constance. And its institution by Christ (clear enough in Gospel This do ye) is expressly asserted by most venerable and ancient fathers, Rabanus, Isiderus, S. Ambrose, Eusebius, S. chrysostom, S. Cyprian, Pope Alexander the first, and sixth from S. Peter, Martialis one of the 70 disciples and companion of S. Peter, and Telesphorus.   That mass is neither sacrifice nor yet good work is blasphemously maintained by Luther and Calvin. But this venerable Liturgy is ratified by the first Toletan council, c. 5. By the council of Lateran under Innocent the third, c. 1. decr. by the sixth general Synod, and the Ephesine council, c. 32. decr. Me thinks these men should not be ignorant, that the translation of the law infers translation of priesthood, and where is a peculiar priesthood is a peculiar sacrifice as the Apostle discourses, Heb. 7. Now Melchisedek is the only figure of Christ & his priesthood, as it is there affirmed by the Apostle; & else where by the prophet styling our Lord a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek, Psal. 109. And yet that Priest of the most high God offered nothing to him but bread and wine as Fathers & Scriptur testify. Gen. 14.18. This very function of Melchisedek did Christ our Lord exercise when he offered up to God his body and blood, telling his Apostles present what he did, and what he would have done hereafter: what he did, when he said, This is my body which is given, not which shall be given for you on the cross, but which is immolated and offered now; This is my blood which is shed. He showed what he would have done when he said Hoc facite, This do ye. Here is the order of the new priesthood according to Melchisedek set up. I would to God our Countrymen would seriously ponder these things, and not so slightly pass over a thing of such importance, saying that Melchisedek did but bring forth that bread and wine only to refresh Abram and his Soldiers. If that were all, why should the Scripture add presently, for he was a Priest of the most high God, unless it were brought forth to exercise his priesthood on: and if that were not an exercise of his function, according to what rite or order must his priesthood be? for we never read one word or any mention at all of him, but only there. Besides the kings for whom Abram fought, whereof one went forth to meet him at his return, had made provision enough for Abram, so that he needed not a poor priests bread, especially returning back laden with the spoils of the camp of four kings. XVII. That mass only availed the priest that offered it, and not others for whom it is offered; was another assertion of Luther's Against which is Concilium Cabilonense, put into the volume of the Decretes.  
As for ordination Luther denied it to be a Sacrament. Yet Scripture sufficiently expresses both the sign and thing signified, imposition of hands and grace accrueing by it, 1 Tim. 4.14.  
As for matrimony, 

I. The Armenians denied it to be a Sacrament; so did Luther after them. Yet 'tis expressly so named in the Scripture, Eph. 5.32.  
II. Tatianus, Martion, the Aerians, and Priscillanists held marriage unlawful. This opinion S. Paul seems to have foreseen, and censured it; In the last times saith he some will departed from faith, forbidding to marry. 1 Tim. 4. And it was afterward condemned in the council of Gangres c. 10. decret.  
III. The Cataphrygians whose leader was Montanus, as also Novatus a Roman priest in the time of Pape Cornelius condemned all second marriages. But S. Paul does not so. A woman if her husband be dead is not adulteres if she be with another man, Rom. 7.  
iv The Anabaptists taught that one man may have two wives. But our Lord not only said that the first wife remaining, a man cannot marry a second, but proved it also by those words in Genesis, Erunt duo in carne una, Mat. 19  
V Montanus held that the bond of wedlock may be dissolved at the pleasure of the married couple. But the church teaches further, that nothing, no not adultery itself dissolves it quoad vinculum, though quoad torum it may; as appears in the Milevitan council c. 7. decret. and the general council of Florence in the definition of faith given to the Armenians.    
Extremeunction is rejected from the Sacraments by Luther and his adherents. But the council of Florence under Eugenius 4. and Trent under julius the third, in the fourth session defined in a Sacrament. And 'tis plain enough it came from Christ himself; for when our Lord sent out his Apostles two by two; in the execution of that command they preached and dispossessed people, and whom they found sick they anointed them wthoyle that they were healed, Mar. 6.12. This they could not do of their own authority; nor did our saviour make surgeons of them but spiritual phesitians and dispensers of his word & Sacraments.  LA. 
You have done well for one day Sir Harry, our hour is spent, and by reason of this continued narration Mr Doctor has had no occasion to dispute.  VIC. 
O good Madam let him make an end, that he be not like the foolish builder. My Husband may talk all dinner time, according as it is written, Open thy mouth wide and I will fill it.  KN. 
Madam, that I may be yet more brief, the other extravagant opinions that remain concerning actions, moral, natural and political, I will but merely mention, without adding text of Scripture or council against them.  
As for Christian morality. 

I. Luther and Melanchthon taught that the Evangelicall rule whereby our actions are guided, is no law at all; & that there is not so much as one precept in the whole Gospel.  
II. Calvin, that there is no difference at all betwixt a precept & a counsel.  
III. Spangeberg a Lutheran, that nothing is pleasing to God except it be commanded.  
iv Luther, that all God's precepts are impossible to be kept.  
V Ebion and Cerinthus, that the old Law is universally to be observed with the new.  
VI Martion & the Manichees, that the old Law is wholly evil.  
VII. Others, that every man may be saved in his own Law & religion.  
VIII. Luther, that all works of man howsoever commanded by God are sins.  
IX. Bugaurius de Monte Falcone, that any work done in hope of eternal reward is evil.  
X. The Bogards and Beguines, that a perfect man ought not to exercise good works.  
XI. Luther, that no work is of valiew unto life eternal, nor no hope in merits: that a man may be certain of his salvation without them; & that servile fear is damnable.  
XII. Pelagius, that life eternal may be obtained by our own working without the assistance of grace.  
XIII. jovinian, that a just man can never sin whatsoever he does, kill, lie, swear, steal.  
XIV. That all Prayer is unprofitable was taught by Pelagius, because he thought our nativ liberty sufficient for all; by Wicleph & Huss, because they thought that all things happen by absolute necessity.  
XV. Wicleph, that prayers applied to one do him no more good than all others.  
XVI. The Messalians, that only prayer without other good works is sufficient to life eternal; and that in no instant of time we are to cease from prayer.  
XVII. jovinian, that fasting is of no moment.  
XVIII. Aerius, that we are not to be bound to any certain abstinencies.  
XIX. The Bogards, that a man come to perfection is not bound to any austerities.  
XX. Eunomius, that faith saves without any good works at all.  
XXI. Luther, that faith is lost by a mortal sin.  
XXII. Abailardus, that nothing is to be believed but what we understand.  
XXIII. Bardesanes a Syrian, and Priscillianus, that all men's actions are to be imputed to fate, and not their own free will.  
XXIV. The Lamperians, pseudo-apostles, and Luther, that all vows made to God are impious, paganish, judaical, diabolical.  
XXV. The Wittenburgians later Lutherans, that nothing can be vowed but what is commanded.  
XXVI. Wicleph, that it is not law full for Christians to give alms to the poor, and that all mendicity and poverty is unlawful; and Desiderius a Longobard, that it is not lawful to leave our possessions for Christ.  
XXVII. Guilielmus of Anwerp, that by poverty all sins are blotted out; and that a poor whore is better than a rich matron.  
XXVIII. Wicleph, that every sin is venial to the elect: Calvin, that there is no difference at all betwixt mortal sin & venial: Jovinian, that all sins are equal: Aetius, that no sin is imputed to a believer: Valentinus, that every sin is from the devil and not from our free will: Pelagius, that there is no such thing as original sin: Some Greeks that single fornication is no sin at all.  
XXIX. The Armenians, that all were damned for their sin before Christ's passion.    
As for things & actions natural. 

I. Abailardus held that nothing in affairs is contingent, but all things of necessity; Wicleph, that God himself cannot do things otherwise than they are done.  
II. The Turrelupini, that we should be ashamed of no natural thing; & therefore they coupled openly like dogs.  
III. Simon Magus, the Nicolaites, Adamites & Waldenses, that the promiscuous use of women is lawful.  
iv The Bogards and Beguines that a kiss is a sin, but copulation is not.  
V The Adamites, that corporal nakedness is to be used; and therefore they walked and prayed naked, calling their congregation Paradise.  
VI The Valesij, that no man can pleas God, except he be gelt and made an eunuch.  
VII. Severus, that wine is unlawful and the vine sprung up from the earth and Satan.  
VIII. Tatianus, that it is not lawful to eat flesh at any time or for any necessity; and according to the Catharists, neither eggs, cheese nor milk.  
IX. jovinian, that a man upon any day may lawfully eat any thing, either eggs or flesh in Lent, or upon good friday.  
X. The Discalceati, (as S. Austin calls them) that no Christian man may wear shoes. Lastly the natural liberty of man's free will is quite taken away by Bardesanes, Manicheus, Abailardus, Wicleph; and jovinian said, that no man can do amiss after he has received the grace of Baptism.    
As for things and actions political. 

I. The Waldenses and Wiclevists maintained, that we must not obey to any power upon earth.  
II. Basilides, if any power raise a persecution against Christians, that we are rather to deny Christ than suffer martyrdom.  
III. Petilianus a Donatist, that 'tis a commendable martyrdom for a man to kill himself.  
iv The Waldenses, that no man can be justly put to death by any authority.  
V Joannes Parvi, that a tyrant may lawfully be murdered by any vassal, and that of his own private authority, notwthstanding any oath to the contrary.  
VI The Waldenses, that it is never lawful for Christians to take an oath.  
VII. Priscillanus, that Christians may lawfully forswear themselves.  
VIII. Luther, that 'tis lawful in no case for Christians to demand before a judge any reparation for an injury.  
IX. Manicheus, that 'tis never lawful to wage war; and Luther, that 'tis unlawful for Christians to fight against the Turk.  
X. Some Greeks, that 'tis lawful to cheat our enemies, and that usury is no ways unlawful.  
XI. Diotrephes in the Apostles time, that Hospitality is not to be showed to strangers, especially Catholic Priests.  
XII. Willielmus de Sancto Amore and Wicleph, that monks and Religious men are not to have any food but what they get by manual labour; as on the other side the Psalliani, Euchetae or Enthusiasts erred no less in affirming, that no manual labour was lawful for them; as also the Waldenses, that no perfect man ought to labour with his hands in the common wealth. These be the chiefest extravagancies I find concerning Christian actions moral, natural and political.    VIC. 
O Sr you have made too much haste, and crowded these brave spirits too close together. Great wits love freedom & cannot endure to be straitened. Your speedy narration makes them thrust and crowd & trample upon one another's heels, as the herd of swine in Gospel which the devils drove head long into the Sea. In this great haste of yours I have let slip not only their opinions, but their very names. But so it is fulfilled that is written of you, I said in my hayst, All men are liars. Psa. 116.  KN. 
To bring my speech to a period. The Catholic Church an indulgent mother as she could not but be affected to see children that came from her own bowels bandy and rise up against her so tumultuously from time to time, so hath she showed no less industry and watchfulness to repress them all; being herself still peremptorily resolved not to departed whatsoever should happen, so much as an apex or jota from the word she had received. And truly her majesty and power appears in that she still lives to see all her rebels under her feet: however through the frailty of revolting men they may grow strong and multiply sometimes for two or three ages together, in some parts of the earth against her. I shall ever love and reverence this divine integrity wisdom and power of the Catholic and immaculate spous of Christ; which can neither tamely let fall the truths she has received, nor yet by violence be forced out of her right. Indeed besides the general honesty whereby she stood obliged as a depositary to keep unalterable and entire all the whole tradition committed to her custody; the Paradoxes of Sectaries were so dissonant for the most part to right reason moral justice & piety, that the wisdom sobriety and faith of the Church Catholik could not in any sort comply with them though she should sink under the persecution of Apostates. Nor had she more reason to comply with any one than all, according as they risen: and so she should ever and anon gainsay herself; do and undo, say and unsay, affirm and deny the very same things; for fectaries were quite contradictory to one another: Nor by this time had she kept any considerable portion of that body of tradition she received from her Redeemer with the threat of a heavy curs on him should dare to altar or diminish from it. Let him be accursed that loves it, the spous of Christ is blessed, and so united with her head that she cannot departed from the truth emboweld wthin her breast, and as it were identified in herself.  
There is morover one thing I could wish you take notice of; That the whole heap of Reformation, begun by Luther this last age, and made up by the additions of whosoever will do it, is but only so many several hand fulls of execrable ashes taken out of the urns of condemned Heretics long ago deceased, as for example.  LA. 
Nay Sr Harry if you mean to speak any longer at this time, you shall talk to the carpet. The weather is cold and our hour past. Besides, dinner is not to be lost.  VIC. 
Indeed, as it is written, There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and enjoy the fruit of his labour. Eccl. 2.  MIN. 
These extravagant opinions were doubtless heretical in the first Authors, not afterwards in us; Plures cum faciunt idem, non est idem.  LA. 
Let's go, let's go.  VIC. 
Let them go Madam, there's not a dish brought to table yet I do assure you, 'tis twenty pittyes time is so far spent, I have something to say would have made Sr Harry blush; a whole half hours talk Madam.  LA. 
When we are set at table I shall giv you occasion Mistress to utter it.  VIC. 
Sr Harry, if you observed so much, in his Catalogue of errors made mention of many that by those opinions were cut off from the Papists & excommunicated, having been aforetime of their number; but the standing body of Papists he accuses of no error at all. But Madam I have gathered nine and thirty Articles which they hold contrary to truth.  LADY. 
Those that were made in K. James his days.  VIC. 
No, no; of mine own observation, which I noted at times in my own private reading, never before taken notice of by any.  LA. 
So much the better, for new things do excite attention.  VIC. 
First you know, that the Papish church sends forth her Priests and Religious to reduce nations from paganism and convey their faith up and down the World, contrary to express Scripture; Hast thou faith, have it to thyself, Rom. 14.21. 

II. Christ sayeth, When thou dost fast, anoint thy head & wash thy face, Math. 6.17. Papists never observe this, nor do they think themselves bound in Lent, ember & other fasting days, to put painting or black patches on otheir face, to curl and powder their hair, anoint their head with jessamy butter, spikenard & other sweet ointments; but the Gospel is neglected by them without any fear or conscience at all.  
III. They hold that no body should forsake their religion; directly contrary to Gods will, The Spirit saith expressly that in the latter times some shall departed from the faith, 1. Tim. 4.1. God says some shall, they say they shall not, and by their good will they would let no body do it.  
iv They hold that the virgin Mary was taken up soul and body into heaven; and would persuade us we shall be so too; yet truth says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, 1. Co. 15.  
V They will tell you punctually on what day of the month Easter Christmas or any holiday happens. Of such 'tis written, Ye observe days and months and times and years, I am afraid of you lest I have bestowed labour in vain, Gal. 4.10.  
VI Such of them as be strong and healthy fast in Lent, & if any be sickly he eats flesh; contrary to with is written; He that is weak let him eat herbs. Ro. 14.2.  
VII. 'tis written, If thine enemy hunger feed him, & if he thirst give him drink, Rom. 12.20. here the Papists commit two errors; first they hold that a man may give both meat and drink to one that is hungry, secondly they will do this not only to their enemies but neighbours and friends.  
VIII. They bring the Virgin mary Pictur into the church with a child in her arms, though they cannot but know that she styles herself the handmaid of the Lord, and 'tis written, Cast out the Bondwoman & her son, Gal. 4.30.  
IX. Papists will have the church forsooth to teach us our Religion and faith. But it is written, Woe unto him that saith unto the wood Awake; and to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach, Hab. 2.19. Is the church any thing but wood and stone? 'tis flat idolatry thus to worship wood and stone and the works of men's hands. woe unto them for it.  
X. They teach that righteousness pleases God & sin displeases; where as indeed they are both equally reprovable: When the comforter is come he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness, Io. 16.8.  
XI. You know Madam we sit in our pews all service and Sermon time without uttering word, nor can any discern our lips to stir all the while; but the Papist women as soon as they enter their churches, down they fall on their knees, & so long as they remain there patter forth prayers; you may see hundreds of their lips moving together, & sometimes you may hear them cry Jesus, Jesus: I dare swear they speak in the church, & their religion teaches them to do it, contrary to what is written, It is a shame for women to speak in the church, Cor. 14.34.  
XII. They hold that both prodigality & covetousness in respect of our own goods, fornication & leach ry in regard of our own bodies is unlawful; contrary to express Scripture, Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own, Mat. 20.15.  
XII. They hold that they abstain from all kind of flesh in Lent & yet they eat fish etc. not understanding the Scripture, Theridamas is one kind of flesh of men, another of beasts, another of fishes, another of birds, Co. 15.39.    VIC. 
XIII.  LA. 
Nay thirteenthly & fourteenthly be words too long, we have not time to proceed sweet mistress, you hear I am called.  VIC. 
Many are called but few are chosen saith the Scripture. Give me leave but to say over my nine and thirty articles.  LA. 
They will serve for good discourse at table: how come they to be so many?  VIC. 
Articles against popery can never be more or les than nine and thirty. K. James could have made his up to forty if he had pleased, but they must be no more than nine and thirty nor yet no les, according as 'tis written, Of the jews received I forty stripes save one, 2. Cor. 11.24.  LA. 
You are so witty.  VIC. 
A parsons wise must needs be witty as 'tis written. He that walks with a wise man shall be wise, Prov. 13.20. It should be she that walks, but the Scripture is compendious and sometimes leavs out a letter; nay sometimes a whole syllable, as in that saying, God made man upright. Eccl. 7.29. There man is set for woman; for 'tis well enough known that Adam had a stitch in his side, and so went up and down stooping.  LA. 
Let us carry in your nine and thirty articles to the table.  VIC. 
For S. Harry now and then to by't upon, according as 'tis written, man lives not by bread alone.  LA. 
Enough, enough.  VIC. 
So indeed it is written, Luc. 22.38. Satis est, It is enough.   
FINIS.