THE OLD proverb, As good be a Knave, as amongst Knaves (though Committee men) is debated, and concluded to be false, by Francis Cook, and Thomas Gualther, as they were riding between London and Cambridge, and conferring upon this proverb, and many other things useful for all to know, but more especially for some in authority. In which conference the innocent, and such as have stood for the truth, are made known and commended, and the nocent and such as use deceit and falsehood are discovered, and left to bear their deserved shame and punishment. AS ALSO THE CRUEL AND UNREASOnable doings of some Committee men, and others, against good men, and such as have been most forward for the Parliament: some of their abuses stripped, which deserve to be whipped.  Prov. 1.10.13. My Son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not: if they say, we will fill our houses with spoil, come cast in thy lot amongst us, we will have one purse. Prov. 11.8, 9 The righteous is delivered out of trouble, and the wicked cometh in his steed. An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour, but through knowledge shall the just be delivered. Iam. 1.26. That man that seemeth to be religious, and refraineth not his tongue, his religion is vain. Matth. 5. Blessed are ye when men revile you, and speak all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. 1 Pet. 3.17. For it is better (if the will of God be so) that you suffer for well-doing, then for evil doing. Psal. 50. But to the wicked said God, what hast thou to do to take my words into thy mouth, seeing thou hatest to be reformed? 
A CONFERENCE between FRANCIS Cook, And THOMAS GVALTER, as they were riding between LONDON and CAMBRIDGE.  Thomas Gaulter, 
YOu are well overtaken Mr. Cook, how far travel you this way?  Francis Cook. 
To Cambridge.  Ga. 
So do I, what shall we get thither to night; think you?  C. 
No, but to morrow in the forenoon, I hope, I use to ride easily.  G. 
I will ride as easily as you, for I desire to have some talk with you about your brother Scotten, what think you? had it not been better for him to have been quiet, and have let his fellow sequestrators alone? I believe he repents it now.  Cook. 
Then it seems you think the old proverb is true, as good be a knave, as amongst knaves, I grant you, that if my brother Scotten had not reproved them, and complained of their misdemeanours concerning the sequestration, they had not complained of him to the commissioners of the excise, nor sequestered his goods, as they have done: my brother heard before that some of them did threaten him, that if he complained of them about the sequestration, they would out him of the excise office: but not knowing wherein he had offended, was no whit deterred, but being bound by a double band to disclose their naughty doings, did proceed to complain against them, what though he did expose himself to their rage, he thought it better to do so, then worse.  G. 
You seem to charge some Committee men, and other officers (I know who you mean) to be knaves, I think you do very ill, for there be many deceived if they be not honest men, and very forward for the Parliament: but I am not of opinion it is as good be a knave, as amongst knaves, but that a man should rather suffer any thing in his name, person, and estate, then join with knaves in their knavery, but it will be a hard task to prove them to be knaves.  C. 
My bro Scotten was once of your mind, he being in a manner a stranger to them, yet their seeming forwardness for the Parliament, and their cunning carriage, made him believe they were men converted, insomuch, that when they, or any of them suffered, he was bound to suffer with them, spoke, writ, and spent much money and time in their behalfs, yea lost the favour of many great and good men in pleading their cause, for my br. bearing an honest mind, did think they had done so too; and whereas you say I seem to charge them to be knaves, I do not love foul language, but when you have heard but some of their carriages, which are known to many, and may be proved against them, than I shall leave it to you, and to all men, to judge what they be.  G. 
It may be they will say they can prove as much against your br. Scotten.  C. 
I am sure some of them have foully scandalised him already, but they neither have, nor can prove the least tittle against him in his offices, that was in his power to help, and when it is known how their tongues are accustomed to slander, not only good men, but also great men, not sparing the Parliament, nor the assembly of Divines, and other orthodox Ministers, than it will be thought no marvel if they shall deal so with my brother: but I shall pass by many of their misdemeanours, both in their words and actions, which although they are true, cannot be proved so clearly, an instance against them, and in the behalf of my brother Scotten, in such things as are well known to many, and may be fully proved▪  G. 
If you will do so, I'll tell you after, what I have heard them and others affirm concerning your brother Scotten, I would gladly know how you or he can answer them, for I desire to be rightly informed, if he be an honest man, he is much wronged.  C. 
It is very true what the Scriptures say, Prov 4. he that reproveth a scorner, purchaseth to himself shame, and he that rebuketh a wicked man, getteth himself a blot: for I am well assured, my brother is exceedingly wronged by them, and by many others that side with them, since he began to reprove them, and complain against them: but I shall begin, and first I shall instance Downham house, they selling the best of those household goods that were the Bishops, to themselves, and to one another, at undervalues, insomuch that it is grown into a proverb in Cambridgeshire, and the Isle of Elie, that Luke voice sold to L. voice, &c. to make short, it is most certain, that L. voice sold to himself, and to his sons, the richest, and the best of that household stuff, except one room ready furnished and hanged with tapestry, for 20. l. to Jam Whinnell, which some say was worth 60. l. I never saw it to take any notice of it, and they made my brother believe they gave to the full value of them, until every one cried shame of their doings.  
Secondly, I shall instance in Downham park, with the lands adjoining, worth 120.l. per annum, L. voice having a share therein, let it be examined what it hath yielded to the State, I am sure it had not yielded 1.d. when my brother complained in June 1645.  
Thirdly, Mr. Pig's goods sold, and part of his lands, let between Ia. Whinnell and his father, and W. Nichols at undervalues.  
Fourthly, some of them combine with th' Wilson of Emneth, a notorious Malignant to conceal about 120.l. from the state, which the said Wilson was in arrears to Mr. Dove a delinquent.  
Fiftly, the better to colour their naughty doings, after my brother had complained of them, they draw on 2. others, and give this Th. Wilson 4. months longer time, under a pretence it was possible he might clear himself of the concealment of the said 120. l. when he had had to long time given him before, which they have done in favour to the said Wilson, and in wrong to the State, and contrary to a former order consented to by the said Wilson: and yet this Wilson known unto them to be a bitter persecutor of my brother Scotten in the Bishop's times, and a wicked reviler of the present Parliament.  
Sixtly, they under colour of their office, join with this Thom Wilson against a godly painful preacher, approved of by the assembly, and put in by the honourable Committee for plundered ministers, and made it cost him above 60.l, before he could enjoy the profits given him by the said Committee, such is their hatred to godly preachers.  
Seventhly, after my brother began to suspect them, he looked into their accounts, and found them to be defective, imperfect, and false, wronging the State for their own advantage, not regarding their oaths.  
Eightly, my brother complained several times to some of them, that there were amongst them, that gathered up some hundreds of pounds, and paid it not into the treasurers appointed▪ besides 160. l. one of them was in arrear to the late archdeacon of Ely, which was also the Parliaments money: yet although my brother waited long, he could get no justice done amongst them.  G. 
You need instance in no more, if you can but prove these, but if I be not deceived, your brother did complain of most of these things the 20 of June last, to the Committee of the accounts of the kingdom, why did he not prove these things against them then?  C 
I'll tell you why, they knowing themselves to be in an evil taking, and that it was like to fall foul upon them, they most cunningly contrive and plot which way to take of my brother from prosecuting his complaints against them, and to this end in July last, they seize and drive away his milch cows, plow and cart horses and mares, in all, near 30. head of cattle, besides near 60.l. worth of coal seed, to the great affrightment of his wife and children, leaving his house destitute of necessary provision, his land untilled, and his harvest uncarted in, and besides leave a great scandal upon him: so by this means they take him off from proving his complaints, he had now another task in hand, to clear himself, & to petition to get his goods again, his wife not being able to bear crosses so well as he, it was no little trouble to him, his family, and friends.  G. 
Why, but your brother was an unwise man, did he know his goods liable to sequestration, and would he go and complain against them, and so enrage them: he that reproves or complains against others, should be without fault himself.  C. 
You say truly in that, I will not go about to justify my brother, so as if he had no failings, but that he should be liable to sequestration is a riddle to him and me, one that hath been so forward for the Parliament as he hath been.  G. 
But I have credibly heard, that your brother did receive of Ionas Dunch of Elye a collector 500.l. to pay in to the Treasurers at Guildhall London, and he paid in but 400.l. to them, and kept 100.l. to himself, and for that they sequestered him.  C. 
My brother will confess that, and yet never the more to blame, for he was then Treasurer, and at the request of Ja. Whinnell, did pay in 100 l. of the excise money at Wisbeech, to Mr. Brown subtreasurer for the Earl of Manchester, for his 3d. part of the sequestration money in the Isle of Ely, there being then great need of the money, to go against Crowland, and was to receive that 100 l. again of Jonas Dunch at Ely, in the way as he went to London: for said Ia. Whinnell, why should we be at cost and trouble to fetch 100.l. from Ely hither of the sequestration money? and must carry so much of the excise money thither towards London, both labours may this way be saved: my brother perceiving he spoke reason, consented to him, and it was done accordingly: but now you have brought it into my mind, I will tell you of a prank Ia. Whinnell did at that time, for the same time my brother received the 500.l. of I. Dunch, which was in Dec. 1644 he received also plate worth 25.l. odd shillings, which he carried up to London with the 500.l. my brother intending it should be sold, and at that time paid into the Treasurer● at Guild hall, but presently after their accounts were given in, the plate was sold, and Ja Whinnell pursed up the money, and had not paid it in the 29. Sept. last, but made use of it himself all that while, if not still.  G. 
But I pray you tell me truly, had not your brother Scotten 100.l. of the state's money in his hand when they distrayned his goods?  C. 
No, nor one penny, for he had expended more in the state's service upon necessary expenses than he had to account for to the State, so that although he had 87. l. 6. s. 6, d. for which he was to be accountable for: yet being allowed for necessary charges and pains according to the ordinance for sequestration, as it is there expressed, p. 8 l. 1. in thes● words. Lastly it is ordained, that all and every the said sequestrators and Committee; shall have allowances for their necessary charges and pains in and about the premises, as they shall be allowed by both houses of Parliament. I say his expenses being mo●● then his fellow sequestrators, and more than 87.l. 6. s. 6 in two years, he had not (as I said before) one penny in his hand, is it probable that he should first complain to some o● them, and after to others, that Ja Whinnell, Wil. Nichols, and Ric. Ponsonby, and others, kept the state's money in their hands, and be guilty of the same offence himself?  G. 
Why then did they sequester his goods, was not there first a fair trial? had he not notice given that he might answer for himself, before they did sequester him?  C. 
No, my brother Scotten never knew of it until it was done, was never summone● to make any account, neither was there any cause why he should, nor was he ever called t● answer for himself: but have you forgotten what I hinted to you before, it was to tak● him off from proving his former complaints against them, they would set him to work● upon another subject, to go see if he could get his goods and credit again, they would teach him to tell tales out of the school.  G. 
If this be true which you tell me, they are most abominable in their doings, and they have wronged your brother exceedingly, for as you say, the ordinance for sequestration doth intend allowance for necessary charges and pains, but if it did not, it seems each of them had more in their hands at the same time, than your brother was to be accountable for: but what did your brother do when he heard of it, did he not desire his goods again, until there might be a fair trial, and know for what cause they sequestered him?  C. 
Yea, what I have told you is most true, and I'll tell you what my brother did, the first 2. or 3. days he could not tell what to think upon it, that his cattle should be driven away, nor by what authority, nor for what cause; at last he heard by the authority of Ia. Whinnell, L. voice, and Ric. Ponsonby his fellow Sequestrators, and W. Nichols their Collector, and that it was for this 100.l. he received of Ion. Dunch (as you heard it) and then he sent some neighbours and friends, to desire of them that he might have his milch cows again, his plow, and cart horses and mares for his present use, and he would put them in what security they would require, that they should be forth coming the last of Sept. then next following, in case he did not betwixt that and then (which was about 8. weeks between) bring an order to have them again, they peremptorily refused, yet my brother stayed a while longer before he went to London to complain, thinking they had not been so far transported with rage, but upon cold blood they would have yielded to so reasonable a request; but after he perceived they had sold them, up he goeth to London and doth petition the Lords and Commons for sequestration, who after some weeks' attendance, referred it to the standing Committee at Cambridge, to send for the parties on both sides, and their witnesses, and examine them and end, or certify within a month.  G. 
Is it possible they should refuse to let him have his milch cows, plow and cart horses and mares, those necessary cattle upon security, and that but for 8. weeks, this makes them more and more odious, and I think if these things be proved, they will be judged to be unfit men to be employed in any office under the Parliament. But what did the Committee at Cambridge in it?  C. 
My brother saith he is bound to honour that Committee for their justice, for after they had examined 5. or 6. witnesses on his behalf, they perceived that malice was the cause they sequestered his goods, but because I. Whinnell did allege that they could not have their witnesses there (although they had warning and time enough) and did further allege, that he must of necessity go to London, so that the month would be out, which was the time limited to end the business, the Committee did not fully end it then, but ordered that for the present my brother should have his milch cows, plow, and cart horses and mares again (they being sold but for 40.l. as themselves confessed) the Committee being informed that the parties that had bought them (considering how my brother was wronged) were willing he should have them again, and further ordered▪ that his other goods which were unsold, should not be sold, until the cause was fully heard, and that if they did prove sequestrable, my brother should pay the said 40 l. to the State.  G. 
What hath your brother done, hath he yet got longer time of the Committee of Lords and Commons, that the gentlemen at Cambridge might hear it out, and determine it?  C. 
Not as yet, for they would not obey the order of the Committee of Cambridge, until very lately, that they heard they were like to be sent for up, to answer their contempt before the Committee of Lords and Commons, I. Whinnell being so far from obeying the order of Committee of Lords and Commons, that since their order of reference to the standing Committee at Cambridge, he hath forged a warrant, and counterfeited hands, and sent men into Norfolk with that forged warrant, hath taken 40. coombe of cole-seed from my brother, which grew there, where he had nothing to do to sequester, pretending in the warrant, he took it for the State, but caused it to be brought into his own chamber at Wisbeech and then said he had a right to it himself, this forged warrant my brother's son did get from the men, and it is to be seen with the counterfeit hands: besides, instead of obeying the order of Committee of Lords and Commons, and of the Committee of Cambridge, they did still proceed, and seized upon my brother's wheat, imprisoned and fined those that did help him to make money for the relief of him and his family, notwithstanding that the much honoured governor of the Isle (at my brother's request) required them to forbear, and yield obedience to the said orders. And now my brother hath voluntarily sent in his accounts in particular to the Commissioners for the accounts of Cambridgeshire, where it will evidently appear, that my brother was to be accountable but only for 87.l. 6, s. 6.d. of the state's money, before they sequestered his goods, which being not so much as he expended in the state's service in two years upon necessary charges, it must needs follow that he had not one penny of the state's money in his hand when they sequestered his goods (as I said unto you before,) which when the standing Committee at Cambridge perceive plainly to be so, they cannot but in justice restore to my brother all his goods again, they being so unjustly taken from him, and allow him for reparation of his losses, his damage being very great in his estate, besides what he hath been damnified in his credit, which is not a little, a good name being better than precious ointment, as Solomon saith.  G. 
Some say Ia. Whinnell gave it forth he would not have sequestered your brother's goods, but that he was the cause to hinder his brother in law for preaching any more at Wisbeech; and they further say, that very many there are much imbittered against your brother for that.  C. 
Yea I heard that Ia. Whinnell did say so, but I do not believe for all his saying, that that was the cause alone, but it is true, that many people thereabout are much enraged against my brother for that; but they have no reason so to be, I hope they will see their errors one day, and be sorry for them.  G. 
I'll tell you now the particulars they reckon up against your brother, they do not let to say, he hath been a contentious man most part of his time, and they instance in these following. First he contended with Vicar Giles 12. years together, and with his son in law Tho. Wilson, not only about the Ship money, but also about Trespasses; and that your brother almost alone in the country opposed the paying of the said Ship-money, in so much that men were constrained to distrain him for it: And now in reproving his fellow Sequestrators and then complaining of them and of their Collector Will Nichols. And then speaking of Ja. Whinnel's debts and arresting him at London and that yo●r brother was the cause of the displacing the Vicar of Wisbeech. And that he framed a false Petition to the Committee of plundered Ministers, to get in a Minister in the room of a Delinquent Minister that last had it. And that it was agreed on between him and the Minister, that it he could procure the personage for him, it being worth 200. l. per. an. he should have it for 100 l. a year. And that your brother being in debt 60. to Mr. Nichols a Preacher that formerly had the said parsonage, did threaten him in writing, that unless he would forgive him his debt, and let him his personage still, he would complain of him to the Parliament, for he knew faults enough by him that would cast him out, but if he would do the former two things, let him be as bad as he would, he would not meddle with him. And they say your brother hath sought to be revenged on Ja. Whinnell, complaining against him to the Committee of Examinations, and they speak hardly concerning the witnesses that testified against him, because they did not complain of it before, and they say further that he is such a strong presbyterian that he is the only man that opposeth their proceedings in those parts about Religion.  C. 
If all these were true, my brother were bad enough, though many of them deserve praise, were but the weather sociable, the ways cleaner, or the wind lower, I should spend two hours' time in answering these things, but being as it is, I shall be very brief, but so as I hope I shall make it plainly appea●e that in most of these things my brother deserveth praise, and that some of them (as they are reported) are very false. I shall begin with Vicar Giles or Jame Giles (for so he was called) my brother living in the same town with him and farming the parsonage there, heard him deliver these popish points, That men since the fall had ability to keep God's commandments. That the second commandment was indeed no commandment, but a commentary on the first. That it is not lawful for lay men to read the Scriptures, That some men were in Heaven for their good works, That before the words of Consecration, the bread in the Sacrament was indeed bread, but after those words, it was the very body of Christ and aught to be adored. My brother after two or three times talking with him concerning these points in private, he still persisting, after prayers were ended my brother told the people that Mr. Giles taught them false Doctrine, Mr. Giles said bear witness, and shortly after obtained of the churchwardens to present my brother in the Bishop's Court before Doctor Eden, who suspended him and enjoined recantation. But because my brother would not deny the truth, he brought above 20. witnesses before the Bishop and Dr. Eden at the Bishop's palace at Downham to prove Giles his evil life and false doctrine, Bishop Buckridge only reproved Giles. About this Bishop's death, Vicar Giles about with this business again before Dr. Eden at Cambridge, my brother because of Dr. Eden's injustice there, was advised to appeal into the Arches where it became two suits, Dr. Eden was advocate for Giles there, after Vicar Giles neglected Dr. Eden, And then he turned to my brother, and advised him to sue Giles in the Audience, but after a year or two the Dr turned to Giles again. After many years my brother was cast in the Arches both in the Gravamen and the principal cause by Sir Io. Lamb, at which time and before my brother sought agreement with Vicar Giles, and offered him money enough No, saith Vicar Giles, I seek not your money but you; you shall recant. He had thought to have converted my brother to him: but he being resolved not to deny the t●uth, what ever came of it, appealed to the Delegates: After 2 or 3. years there, D. Eden being still advocate for Giles, both suits past against my brother, who again tendered Vicar Giles all cost, and a great deal more money, but nothing would serve the Vicar, but he must recant; he would not, so it cost my brother in 12 year●●t being in 4. courts, what with transmission of all the books, many commissions, one charge or other) above 400. l. and was constrained to live for the most part of 3. years and a half about London to keep from the vicar's rage: this T. Wilson was then solicitor, against my brother in the behalf of his father Giles, and persecuted him fiercely, and caused my brother during the space of these 12. years to be presented at Doctor Eden's court at Ely 100 times and more, because he went to hear the next preacher, when Vicar Giles did not preach, he usually preaching not above once in 4. or 6. weeks: At last a Parliament came my brother did petition against this Giles, and against Doct. Eden, Sir I. Lamb, judge Bartlet and others, for injustice, he had Vicar Giles voted an unfit man for the ministry, by the grand Committee for scandalous ministers. But his other petition against the judges for injustice to his damage 500 l. was referred to the Committee for Courts of justice, my brother attending with his witnesses at both the Committees, until one charge or other cost him 45.l. and then the troubles of the Kingdom grew to be so great, that private causes were adjourned, and there that petition lieth still; but Vicar Giles died, it was said he poisoned himself▪ As for T Wilson for trespasses, my brother brought only 2, actions against him, when he might have brought ten, and did not that neither, until after Th. Wilson sued him for pigs once coming into his yard, and my brother did prosecute but one of these actions to execution, although Thom. Wilson was cast in them both, and this Th. Wilson amongst other of his almost incredible malicious actions against my brother, did cause him to be taxed at Emneth for the ship-money, in such a disproportionable manner as was unreasonable, insomuch as my brother found so much justice from the sheriff and high Constable, that they laid a great part of that tax upon T. Wilson, and eased my brother there, for should my brother have born all his wrongs, it had been more than unexpedient (as one said wisely) it would have inspired him with boldness, and so drawn on more injuries: evil natures grow presumptuous upon forbearance, in a dogged stomach which is only capable of the restraint of fear: the silent digestion of a former wrong, provokes a second: and Religion allows us as much of the serpent as of the dove, it is our duty indeed to be simple as doves, in offending them, but we are no less charged to be wise as serpents in defending ourselves.  G. 
But let me interrupt you a little, is that this Th Wilson of whom your brother complained of before, that Ia. Whinnell, and W. Nichols combined with to deceive the State? and that he and the rest joined against that painful preacher put in by the Parliament,  C. 
The same man, I'll warrant you he is no changeling, but I'll proceed. As for my brothers standing out 4. years against that illegal tax of ship-money, and suffered 17.l. to be taken from him by violence in that time, this hath been since counted for a good work in others that did the like, and I hope it will not now be taken by the wise, for contention in him: for his arresting I. Whinnell in June last at London, needs no other answer but this, that he knew not otherways how to get his money; and for speaking of his debts, and complaining of his fellow sequestrators, I gave you a hint of that before, after many of his debts came to my brother's knowledge, he was forced to reveal them to save himself, in giving a reason to Capt. Cole, L. voice, and others, why he was so earnest to have W. Nichols sent for to bring in his accounts and money, for that he knew them to be both poor, and in debt, and not responsible for 3. or 400.l. they had collected, (or more for ought he knew) they having paid in none, and the ordinance of sequestration expressing, that the Committee shall be answerable for the acts and doings of their Colectors, and knowing if that money miscarried, the blame must light upon him, he l●●●●g in the same Town where I. Whinnell and W. Nichols lived, and they 20. miles of, if he did not make it known, and disallow of their doings: besides, my brother had taken an oath to do all things to the best advantage of the commonwealth, so that as I told you in the beginning, he was bound in a double band to reveal them, and could he have had just proceedings at home amongst his partners, when he made several journeys to Ely for it, he had not been forced to have complained further off for his own safety: and for my brother's pains and cost in getting out the former Vicar of Wisbeech, put in by the Bishop, and was judged to be so unfit for the place, that there was not one that voted for him, but when he offered to show some hundreds of hands in his behalf, it was said they needed no other evidence of the ignorance and blindness of those people that would set their hands in the behalf of so unfit a man to be their teacher, and that they had need of an able minister to teach them better, and commended Mr. Barthol. Edwards, and my brother for their good pains, where so few joined with them: and I hope those that set their hands for him, will one day (when they are better instructed) say it was a good work, and help my brother to some of the money again he is out of his purse about it. And as for framing a false petition, and agreeing before hand with a Minister, that if he could procure him the parsonage, it being worth 200. l. yearly, he should farm it for 100.l. per An. this is utterly false, in every particular: and that my brother was in debt 60.l to Mr. Nichols, or 60.d. either, is utterly false, he owed my brother above 60. l. which if he would have set but a part of it off when he received his rent (according as he had promised in his letters,) there had been no more ado▪ for it is well known; my brother at that time (which was about the beginning of this Parliament) had store of money lying by him, and did lend to poor men at their needs, but owed no money to Mr. Nichols nor any other man; except that debt for trespass to Tho. Wilson, the Costs of the suit amounting to 5. l. 10. s. which his attorney had ready for him, and he might have had it, had not malice so far prevailed with him, as to sue my Brother upon the same judgement, to put him to more charges: And Mr. Nichols had reason to let my Brother his parsonoge, for that he paid him his rent at his times. And the letter he sent to Mr. Nichols, hath no such thing in it, as is falsely said to be; and it is to be seen and (the cause of it rightly considered) deserveth praise: And I hope my brother hath not sought revenge, against James Whinnell and the rest, his complaining at the Committee of Examinations, and accounts being in June, which was before they sequestered his goods, and so could not be in revenge of that: But the revenge will fall upon them, for after my brother had reproved and complained of them, than they to be revenged of him, sequester him: Again to seek to the Magistrate for justice, is not revenge: and so did my brother: But they to fall upon him themselves (who was a Sequestrator with them) and spoil him as they did, this is revenge in them: Neither was my Brother the first mover of those Articles against them, but being at a gentleman's house in London, he heard two letters read, which came from about Wisbeech, complaining of the outrages and uncivil carriages of James Whinnell, and others that sided with him, aleadging that if the Parliament knew what a man they employed they would not own him: hereupon my brother spoke of some things that he and others could prove against them. A Gentlemen being by, said, men could not keep their oath and Covenant, if they knew such things and would not complain of them. Hereupon my Brother did put them in writing, and with others did go to the Committee of Examinations, and as for those that either think or speak hardly of him, and those that did testify against James Whinnell; for which he is sentenced and imprisoned: I think they have little reason, for who could hear such a well deserving honourable person, which hath done so much good, not only since the Parliament began, but like●ise before? For which he deserveth to be had in everlasting honour: that both he and his honourable family should be scandalised in such a high nature, and not endeavour to bring the author thereof to dondigne punishment: but to stop the mouths of all such, they may take notice, that there be others that heard him speak the same scandalous words, and that a Gentleman hath given it under his hand in writing, that if he be called, he will testify he heard James Whinnell speak the same wicked words: and there be others can testify that the hearers of those words did speak of them the same day, but there wanted a fit opportunity before that time to make them known in its proper place▪ And I believe my Brother is so far from revenge, that notwithstanding the wrong he hath received, he could be content to join in a Petition to that Noble Lord, that although he hath wronged his Lordship in such a high nature (yet upon his humble submission) he might be enlarged.  
And whereas they say my brother is such a strong Presbyterian &c. I'll tell you he is so far from siding so, as to make the breach wider, that he honours all those that be godly men; whether Presbyterian or independent, not pretending to have so much knowledge as to conclude certainly which is the best, where so many Godly men do differ, yet according to that small measure of knowledge he hath, his judgement is rather inclin●ble for the Presbyterian: But desires to wait until it shall please God to reveal those things to his humble servants that seek unto him.  
But I'll tell you what kind of people my Brother doth not approve of, such as the Apostle Peter and Jude speaks of, which speak evil of those things they know not nor understand, soming out their own shame, and walking after their own lusts, one of them affirmed openly in the Market place at Wisbeech, that a Godly learned Preacher, that preached there, could a lie in the Pulpit, because he said whom God loves once he loveth to the end, and cited John 13 1. to prove it: And threatened he would pull him out by the ears, if he came thither again. And (the same man James Whinnell) another time coming to carp at an able Ministers doctrine, now placed by the honourable Committee for plundered Ministers, in Wisbeech, tells him the scriptu●es are plain enough of themselves, they need no interpretation. This Preacher demands of him, what he thought of those places where it saith the eyes of the Lord, and the arm of the Lord and the like, whether he did think that God hath eyes and arms as men have, yea saith he, I think so, for is it not said? God made man after his own Image. And this man hath many that side with him, and seek to uphold him; such as call our best Preachers Baal's Priests, rascals, and the like, although they be such as the Apostle Paul commendeth, workmen which need not be ashamed, but are able to divide the word of God aright; Yet themselves (whilst they thus vilify Godly Preachers) are profane in their lives, not regarding the Lord's days, (but speaking their own words, and doing their own works on those days) nor observing the fast days, but minding feasting rather then fasting when God and men call for it.  Gualther, 
I am very glad to hear your answer concerning these complaints, for certainly most of these things deserve praise, we have had too few such men, as your Brother.  C 
I am glad to hear you judge so rightly of them, he spoke truly that said, truth may lose at the start, yet it will get ground afterwards and win. I'll tell you of two or three things more, my Brother hath done, that his adversaries will now hardly speak of, But if the King's party should prevail they will be laid open to the full. At the first setting forth of the Parliaments propositions for Horse, Men, Money, and Plate, my Brother lent and expended above the tenth part of his poor estate, in July 9 and July 12. 164●. He listed two ●●●at horses in moorfield's with their rider's ready furnished, valued at 42.l. besides he kept them in London one month, at 5 shil. per diem, which cost him about 7 pounds more: they went forth in Major gunter's troop, the first was raised but the Lord Brookes, If every one of his ability had then harkened to the Parliament, and set forth but one such horse with his rider, (or the value thereof in money) at that time as the city of London did abundantly in all probability their forwardness would so have damped the other side, that they would have had no hearts nor hopes to have taken up arms, and so all this unnatural war had been prevented, and many thousand of men's lives preserved and multitudes that have been plundered and undone, would still have been in a flourishing Condition. I speak not of those that were contrary minded, for if all men had been for the Parliament, they had not needed to have prepared for their defence, I only speak of those that seemed to be so, but did nothing or very little until it was too late: my Brother being at London in July aforesaid, when he listed his horses and their riders, it being in harvest time (he not regarding so much the getting in of his harvest as the peace of the kingdom) meets with a Country Gentleman of his acquaintance, who admired his forwardness, my Brother answered him, he did it to keep peace, for said he, if the Countries would do as many of the Londoners and I have done, it would be a means to preserve peace, the Gentleman answered, my Brother said well, but I think at that time he did but little, but it hath Cost him the price of many such horses since.  Gualther, 
But why do you speak of this? Now it is too late to help it.  C. 
I speak of it to this end, First, that many who now lie under sundry grievances may cease to murmur against others, and repent they came not timely to help the Lord against the mighty, for it may be now said unto them, as Paul said to the mariners and Master of the Ship, in another case, Sirs you should have harkened to the Parliament, and have saved all this loss; And as they were faithful unto you, who made choice of them, so ought you to have been, and not have deserted them: and the cause in which yourselves were interessed with them, when they made it publicly known, there was need of your help. Secondly to show my brother's faithfulness and readiness at that time which the Parliament must needs take as an acceptable service, what though it resemble the two Mites cast in by the poor widow, in comparison of what others did. Thirdly to show the evil disposition of those that derive their power from the Parliament, and have so ill requited him, as to take away his Cattle and goods without cause. After this my Brother had only two sons, men grown, both which he set forth to bear arms for the Parliament, who have voluntarily Jepordide their lives in the high places of the field, have been in the greatest fights, (and though I say it) they are men that have behaved themselves so as they have had praise. Besides my Brother himself followed the army, at least three months, to encourage the soldiers at his own Costs; after which he coming to Wisbeech, was a chief instrument to preserve the isle of Elye out of the hands of the Parliaments enemies, for he hearing that Sir Ier. Scroote raised soldiers about Gednie-Cap Welby, near Sutten, and others began to fortify Crowland of another side, and Linn Regis of the other side: And captains entertained at Dodington in the said Isle, and began to fortify there, Capt. Pigg spoke of beating up a Drum about Wisbeech for soldiers, And that the Castle of Wisbeech was in the hands of the Parliaments enemies, whether men and Ammuniton might be quickly and closely conveyed both by land and Sea, And that divers captains were entertained at Wisbeech and thereabouts and all enemies to the Parliament. My Brother began to draw a petition for prevention, and acquainted Andrew Burrell Esq. with it, who advised with him about drawing up of the same, which Petition for secrecy had not above 12 hands to it, was speedily carried to Arrundel-house, in London And Mr. Earl the Parliament man. S●nne in Law to the Lord Say caused it speedily to be read in the House of Commons, whereupon an order was the same day posted down to colonel Cromwell, who without delay sent down Capt. Dodson (now governor of Crowland) with his Company of dragoons, who instantly took possession of the Castle of Wisbeech, My Brother rested not here, but Master Burrell, Capt Dodson and he with some others cast about which way to raise a Company of volunteers about Wisbeech to join with Capt. Dodson, which was soon brought to pass, with the assistance of that deserving Honourable (and never to be forgotten) Lief. Gen. Cromwell Mr. Burrell being at great Charges of Drum, colours, Men, muskets, Powder and Match: besides his lending the Parliament near 100 l. worth of Plate, which he did to encourage others, although he might ill spare it, in respect of his great losses both in Ireland and England. Capt. Dodson did bravely many ways, and so did some others, and to give Ia. Whinnell his due, he was forward in these things, which caused my Brother Scotten to think so well of him as he did: My Brother was at Cost of maintaining three men more besides himself in arms did bear his part of the Charge to maintain a captain to train them and lead them forth as occasion should be offered. And himself his men and Horses with their arms have been out against Crowland 4. or 5. days and nights together, and at other places as occasion required and all at his own Costs. By all which means (with the Blessing of God) the Isle of Ely was preserved, and so Crowland, and Linn, sooner reduced to the obedience of the Parliament. And yet for all this my Brother to be spoiled and plundered by James Whinnell, Luke voice and Richard Ponsonbye Sequestrators for the Parliament, is such an act as is almost incredible, and whether they themselves by doing hereof be not liable to sequestration by the Ordinance of Parliament in that behalf, I leave to others to judge, see the Ordinance p. 4. l. 15. And it is further observable how these men presevere in their evil. Thomas Wilson that known Malignant could have time after time, granted unto him under a colour it were possible he might clear himself and the rest of the aforesaid concealment, which they denied to Mr. Burrell who had done as aforesaid, and was much oppressed in taxes otherways, and utterly deneyed any time at all; to be given to my Brother to clear himself.  G. 
You have defended your Brother Scotten well hitherto, and set forth his deserved praise and have laid open the great abuses of his adversaries, which when Authority shall understand they will undoubtedly repair him in his damages and punish those that have thus wronged him; But there is one thing more, if you could clear him of that, it would do well. He hath lost it seems the favour of the Commissioners of the Excise, and it will be thought those grave Aldermen would not have been incensed against him if there were not proof that he were faulty.  C. 
You say very true, and I shall declare the particulars of that also the greatest matter the Commissioners have found fault with him hath been his absence from the Excise Office at Wisbeech divers weeks.  G. 
That's cause enough to turn him off, and to get a carefuller man in his room, it's a great fault for any man to take charge and trust upon him, and neglect it; how can you answer that?  C. 
No way but this, my brother was at charge of another in his room, and his absence was a forced absence, I'll tell you how, he by means of I. Whinnel, did deliver 50.l. to Ric. Towel, upon 28. Feb. 1644. which he promised to pay in to Mr. Jackson at the excise office at London within a month, it being a usual thing for this R. Powel and his partner, to receive money about Wisbeech country, and lay it out there for fat beasts, and when he had sold them at London, to pay in the money there, this R. Powell and his partner had lately before that, received 50.l. of my brother's son, and had paid it in according to his promise and his partner received above 100.l. of my brother's son not long after, which was paid in accordingly: but when my brother came in at the end of the quarter to see the books made even, there wanted this 50.l. it would not be found received in the books, my brother repaired to R. Powel, who could show him receipts for all the other money, but none for that, my brother waited weeek after weeek, for 3. weeks, hoping he would have paid it in by fair means, after that would not be, he arrested him in London, hoping to have had a trial quickly, but R. Powel removes it by habeas corpus, to keep it from trial: then my br. petitions the commissioners of the excise, that they would get this R. Powel sent for before the Committee of Parl. for the excise, the commissioners gave order to Mr. Skinner so to do, who endeavoured it: but after my br had waited a month longer in London, hoping to have had a warrant for R. Powel, at last the Committee would not, they would see a trial at law first, so by this means he was forced from the excise office 7. weeks.  G. 
Did not I Whinnel after this time meet your br. at the excise office? and affirmed before the commissioners that this R. Powel was an honest man, did he not pay in that 50 pounds think you? and lost his acquittance.  C. 
J. Whinnel did say so before the commissioners, but I think he is such another honest man as I. Wh. is, who likewise received money of my brother's son at Wisbeech, to pay into the excise office at London, but did not, for which (with other money) my brother now sueth him. And these words of I. Whinnel's must needs reflect upon the receivers of the money in the excise office, for my br. hath 3. witnesses that R. Powel received this 50. l of him, but it is no great matter whom I. Whinnel calls honest, nor whom he accuseth to be dishonest, for I believe R. Powel hath not paid in the money, for 2. or 3. days after the month was ended, in which time R. Powel promised to pay it in, my brother spoke with him, and then he confessed he had not paid it in, but said he was to pay in above 100 l. more, which his partner had received of my brother's son at Wisbeech since, and he would pay it in all within 2 days after, besides I cannot find but the officers that receive the money are very exact in setting down what they receive.  G. 
But is this 7. weeks' absence all they have against your brother?  C. 
No, he was but one market day at the excise office at Wisbeech in 2. months after this time, the cause you heard in part before, for I. Whinnel and L. voice having threatened him that in case he complained against them about the sequestration, they would out him of the excise, and he did complain of them as you have heard, after which L. voice being in a rage at Cambridge, said of my brother Scotten, he was an ill bird to defile his own nest they would show him a trick, and so they did, when shortly after they sequester his goods for by that means they did not only prevent my brother from prosecuting and proving his complaints against them, in putting him upon another business, and disgracing him, as I told you before, but also he must be forced from the excise office, that so they might complain of his absence there, for as you heard before, it took up his time for the most part from the latter end of July (the time they sequestered him, what at London & at Cambridge, and to and again) until the latter end of Sept. which is 8. weeks, which with the former 7. makes his absence to be 15. weeks from the office, he was there present only one week, in that time.  G. 
This was a cunning plot indeed, it hath more in it than I understood at first, for by this one act of sequestering his goods, they did not only so far forth revenge themselves of him, as to take away his present maintenance, and all manner of relief from himself and his family, and disgrace him, & so disable him from prosecuting and proving his just complaints against them, but also to force him from the excise office, that they might complain to the Commissioners of his absence from thence, and so to deprive him of that place, as an unfaithful man in the trust reposed in him, yet methinks if the Commissioners were rightly informed of these things, they would not be offended with your brother, he having another in his absence, for what loss can it be to the State if a subcommissioner be absent sometimes, if he be at charge of a sufficient man in his room?  C. 
You conceive very right, yet I'll tell you, because they would make sure to keep him from the excise office, L. voice and I. Whinnel join with this T. Wilson, to cause my brot. to lose 49 l. due to him, and they had prevailed, had he not spent some weeks in London to prevent them, and my br. did endeavour to inform the commissioners of these things, but his memory being short, he could not make things so plain unto them, as I have done now to you, besides my br. had many adversaries, not only L. voice, and I. Whinnel, but all they could procure, with the state's venison in Downham park, and otherwais Neither do I know any loss to the State, if an honest sufficient man, and one that is well acquainted with the business, be there in the absence of a subcommissioner, such as my br. had, for he had his br in law●Fr●●erkins and his son, who kept the office the summer before, when I. Whinnel was absent 16. weeks.  G. 
Now you have brought it to mind, I have heard they made some complaints against your son, as if he were unjust to the State in some trifling sums as much as came to 3. or 4 l. & that he used some men hardly that did not bring in their money when they should.  C. 
It's true enough that I. Whinnel gave in a writing against my br. and his son both, but this was after both of them had found much fault by I. Whinnel, and had complained of his naughty doings at Wisbeech (my br. being loath to trouble the commissioners with complaints against him, whom before he had commended to them) and likewise after my br had informed against him and the rest, at the committee for accounts of the Kingdom, and the honourable committee for examinations, but I. Whinnel could not prove the lead tittle against them for unjust dealings, nor did he go about it, neither do I believe the Commissioners gave any credit unto it: neither had they any reason, for he that will scandalize godly ministers, and the whole Assembly of Divines, the Parliament, and the worthy members of both Houses (such as did never meddle against him) and forge a warrant and counterfeit hands to it, as I told you before, and counterfeits my brother's hand, and puts it to a petition against I. Hubberd Esq. and other gentlemen about Wisbeech, when my br. was 60. miles off, and never knew nor heard of it, causing those gentlemen to think hardly of him without a cause, it is no marvel though he scandalize my brother and his son, who had complained against him before.  G. 
But did not I. Whinnel now of late complain that your brother was behind hand in the excise office for money he should have paid in there?  C. 
Sure enough, but he never told them of the 20.l. at a time, and more, that he gathered into his hands of the excise money at Wisbeech, upon the Sabbath days, of Mr. marshal's clerk the brewer, and others, which was more than he should have received: nor how he wronged my brother between 7. and 8.l. in one quarters book and a half, my brother di● acknowledge that the 50.l. in R. Powell's hand was owing to them, and that he did kept in his hand 15. l. when they began to put the money into the iron box my brother had provided before with 2 locks and keys, because I. Whinnel and W. Nichols had 15. l. in their hands, besides the other money my brother now sues him for, and besides the money he gathered upon the sabbath days as aforesaid, but my brother withal told the Commissioners, that when the 50.l. in R. Powell's hand was paid in, there would be money coming to him (he having his salary allowed him in his forced absence as aforesaid, being at charge of another in his room, as Ja Whinnel had the summer before in his absence 16. weeks) besides my brother's part in the 9●. l. taken from them (to use against Crowland) his share therein being above 40. l. for that he was out of purse above 16.l. in hiring men to go abroad about the excise money, and other things in the first settling of the excise office (as by his account I. Whinnel hath approved of) appears, which 50, l. my brother did promise to pay in, hoping he should have got it where it was due: but I. Whinnel, L. voice and T. Wilson aforesaid prevented him, but he hopes the Commissioners will yet be pleased to be assisting to him in getting the said 60 l this next term when it come to trial.  G. 
Did not the Commissioners blame your brother for that he was a means to bring Ia. Whinnel into that office, by commending of him to be a fit man for a subcommissioner.  C. 
Yea they did so, but my brother told them he was exceedingly deceived in him (as some others have been) he had hoped he had been converted from his former deboist and evil courses, but since he hath found, he is like the dog, turning again to his vomit.  G. 
I see nothing yet but your brother (being a man so well deserving of the Parliament) might be still continued in his office of excise, for to deal truly with you, I had much ado to refrain myself when you told me how he was persecuted by ●ic●Giles and his son Wilson, and had such injustice by those Judges, and how he stood out to the end, & would not deny the truth, though it cost him 500.l. and how since to his cost, he hath with stood the illegal tax of sh●p-money, hath been at cost, and taken pains in removing bad ministers in the place of his abode, and been a means to help good ones in their room, been so forward for the Parliament, that it cost him above the tenth part of his estate, hazarding his own life and his sons for the Parliament, and the cause maintained by them, hath been a means to preserve the Island where he dwells from being under the power of the enemy, the State thereby having the benefit of the excise: and yet to be scandalised, disgraced, and counted as an evil doer, made to suffer so much loss in his estate, & that by men deriving their power from the Parliament, and such as would be taken to be for them (being so ungrateful to him that hath suffered so much for them) I say I cannot but take it to heart, and certainly all good men that hear it, must needs do so, and therefore I would advise you to put this our conference in print, that it may be published to vindicate your brother, who hath been so publicly disgraced, and give to each of the Commissioners, and such Committees as it most concerns, a little book, I cannot think but they will have a good opinion of your brother, and show him all lawful favour, for there is nothing in it that casts the least spot upon the Parliament, nor any good men in authority under them.  C. 
I thank you Mr. Gaulter for that you give credit to what I have told you, and for your good counsel, and that you have a fellow feeling of my brother's sufferings for his well doing, but I must tell you, my brother was resolved never to have joined with I. Whinnel any more in the excise office if he might, for he hath been a great loser by his means, since he trusted him, and since I. Whinnel was sentenced out of his offices, my brother hath not been with the Commissioner for the excise▪ fo● as he sought not for that office at first, so hath he not gone about to make friends to continue ●●, although for the better taking of all scandal from him, he could willingly have joined with some sufficient honest man. But now I hear certainly the commissioners have made choice of others, and have much endeavoured to choose honest men, yet I conceive if it were published, it would be for the benefit of the State, and so far from casting the least aspersion upon the Parliament or any Committees of Parliament men, or others that are good, that it sets forth their deserved praise, besides it may be a means to vindicate my brother Scotten, nor only before the Commissioners of the excise, but all others that have been deceived by false reports, and so repair him in his damages, and lay open the abuses of such men as (in some respects) are worse than that unrighteous Judge, that neither feared God, nor reverenced man, resembling those ungodly men that are crept in unawares, of whom Jude speaketh, that they may be brought to their de●erved punishment & further it may be useful to all, First to confirm this truth, that no bonds of friendship will make wicked men faithful to godly men therefore try before you trust, have good experience of the conversion, conversation, and faithfulness of men, before you trust them so far, that if they prove perfidious they may do you a mischief, take heed how ye both reprove a scorner, or cast pearls before swine, the former will endeavour to work you shame, the latter will rend you, embrace that counsel as much as in you lieth; have peace with all men, but because peace always cannot be, for we are exhorted to contend for the faith once given to the saints, and there is a what peace etc and the wisdom that is from above is first pure, & then peaceable, therefore secondly, let every one resolve to do his duty in his place, although he be accounted contentious or a busy man for his pains, were Nehemiah now living amongst us, & should do as he did in Jerusalem, as you may read. 13. he would certainly be counted a contentious busy man, yet he had peace within, and could say, remember me O my God in mercy, in the good that I have done: I'll tell you (to God's praise and glory be it spoken) that during all that 12. years and above that my brother was troubled and persecuted for contending for the faith against Vicar Giles, that it cost him 500 l. he was not worse in his estate at the end of that time, 500 d. finally, if God see it good otherwise, as to suffer evil men not only to raise and spread false reports of his people, but also to spoil & depri●● them of many of these outward blessings, let us remember what Paul saith, Phil. 1.18.19. And in nothing terrified by your adversaries, which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God, for to you it is given not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. Observe the words well, a suffering condition is a gift, as well as faith, which God useth to bestow upon his beloved ones, to adorn them withal. Now Mr. Gualther are welcome to Cambridge.  G. 
I thank you Mr. Cook both for your company, and for the good satisfaction you have given me concerning your brother, get it printed as soon as you can, good use may be made of it many ways, and if it give not satisfaction to all, yet it will to many that fear God, & have experience of the enmity that is in the seed of the serpent, to the seed of the woman.  
FINJS.   

LONDON, Printed according to order, by Thomas Paine, 1645.