A COOL CONFERENCE Between the Scottish Commissioners Cleared Reformation, and the Holland Ministers Apologetical Narration, brought together by a well-willer to both. 1644.  
REformat. Whilst we the meanest of many, etc. wait for uniformity in Religion, so much desired by all the Godly in the three Kingdoms; unto which an entrance is made by a solemn League, and Covenant.  
Apologet. We approve (worthy brethren) your expectation as just, and confess our own desires of it, so as Reformation be not taken indebite in a strict stinted sense, but according to your latitude expressed pag. 15. We are (say you) neither so ignorant, nor so arrogant as to ascribe to the Church of Scotland (it's your own phrase) such absolute purity and perfection, as hath not need, or cannot admit of further Reformation. So you. A golden peace signifying speech as if dropped from the mouth of some chrysostom, or conceived by some Ireneus; pluck you that end, and we the other likewise, and we shall be fastened with a Cordian knot. Of which our endeavour you have a full testimony in our League and Covenant, wherein we swear to endeavour the preservation of the reformed Religion in Scotland; we say of Religion and Reformed; is, or shall be; and till further reformation, we will preserve it against our common enemy, that you be not made to retreat from that you have won. And that we will endeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in doctrine, worship, discipline and government, according to the Word of God, & the example of the best reformed Churches. So fare the Covenant. Wherein it is as evident as if written with a Sun beam, that the Churches of England have not engaged themselves to come down to you, or do bind you to come to us, but the common rendezvous where we must all meet is the best ref●●●ed Churches: and that according to the word of God, which is that Standard of perfection that must weigh and measure out unto us our uniformity.  
Reformat. We find ourselves bound against the prejudices, and mistake of some who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not, and suffer their affections of love and hatred to run before their understanding; and against the misrepresentations and indirect aspersions of others who do so commend their own way, that the reformed Churches thereby suffer disparagement; to give that testimony unto the order and government of the reformed Churches, and particularly of the Church of Scotland, which they do well deserve.  
Apologet. Ah dear brethren, why would ye speak thus? Do these expressions (in the judgement of candour) suit with your profession, pag. 2. where you promise that you endeavour nothing but a simple and innocent manifestation and defence, without desire or intention to give the smallest offence to any who fear God, love the truth, and, etc. So you. Let an impartial Angel speak, whether multitudes of gracious hearts are not justly offended at this bitterness so unseasonably administered, and applied too, to wrong parties? Ah, how easy is it by our self-mistasting hearts (like the sorry Artificer that makes two cracks, whiles he is patching and hammering up one) rather to cause prejudices, then cure them. You may be confident (let all the world look upon the Apology and judge) that the five Members of the Assembly cast no prejudices upon you, to whom you have so hastily replied. And for private barkings of inconsiderate and inconsiderable men, they are either unknown or un-owned (as is supposed) by men of your gravity. All wise men generally are silently intentive, expecting not paper replies, but disputed Positions from the Assembly, grounded on Scripture. And therefore this paper comes abroad only to beseech that on either side there may be committed no more breaches of the peace Ecclesiastic, and to leave the Apology (if it may be) under the same candid opinion that rayed forth upon it afore this cloud came and interposed. Sure if the Houses of 
So the Ordinance for the Assembly. p. 5.  Parliament allow any of the Assembly differing in opinion touching the matters proposed to them (whereof Discipline is one) to present their judgements with their reasons unto the said Houses; you cannot judge it a crime to send forth a prodromum presented to the Parliament to tell them and you how fare they close with you and other reformed Churches, and descent from the Separation and Brownists. And therefore have not deserved to be whipped with a reply. Pardon the phrase, for indeed it is a smart stroke upon the spirits of understanding men, and standing forth in and for a public Ecclesiastical cause to be taxed for those who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not, and to suffer their affections, etc. to run before their understanding, etc. Sweet brethren do you call your books (frequent among us) the government of the Church of Scotland the Assertion of your government, the peaceable Plea darkness? Or do you think that the Elders of the Quinque Ecclesiae, or others that study Discipline to be dark? Are we not moral men (voluntas vult ut intellectus intelligit) to understand first, and affect after? Or wherein hath appeared this preposterousness towards you, whiles the Apology smiles upon you, and sweetly calls you and Holland by name the more reformed Churches, 
Apol p 6.  do you give them one such a kind word in all your Reply? And more than that, you call not yourselves, confessing a need of further Reformation as we noted, and quoted afore. If then they have commended your Churches according to your own judgements of yourselves, how hath their commendation of other Churches appeared to discommend yours? especially whiles they commend not their own for so perfect, but that they found a necessity of holding this for one of their three rules by which they walked, in these words; Not to make our present judgement and practise a 
Apol. p. 10. 11.  binding law unto ourselves for future, which we likewise made continual profession of upon all occasions. We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of conformity; and therefore in a jealousy of ourselves, we kept this reserve (which we made open and constant professions of) to alter and retract (though not lightly) what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding of the rule. So far the Apolog. There is yet one thing more that makes the Apologists more confident of their candour, in that it received so great an approbation from so pious and learned a man of your judgement, and a Member of the Assembly: As on the other side, though the Assembly voted you thanks, yet was it only for the books you gave them, not for the Reply, as it was express (to that effect) in the vote, if observation fail not.  
Reformat. pag. 2. Our ways since our coming into this Kingdom have been, and (so fare as the truth will suffer us) ever shall be, to unite, and not to divide; to compose rather than to create differences; the principal end of the Assembly of Divines.  
Apol. Yet so contrary a face and voice to that, did this paper seem to have at first blush and sound thereof, that some thoughts and throbs of heart began to doubt whether this blow (intended for a second) upon an imagination of a first, were not given by some to carry on the design of utter dis-uniting the Presbyterians from others; or at least to put them into a capacity to be challenged and contended with; till the Title appeared By th● Commissioners of the Assembly of Scotland; and then all thoughts were turned to wonder, that such grave personages should once think that this their paper could in the least, tend to composall, or prove pacificatory; especially seeing it did carry a show of taking ●he business out of the hands of the Assembly (which you here mention) if the Apology in any thing had been to be blamed. But however notwithstanding this extrajudicial and excentrical act thus happening, we trust, and shall endeavour that there may not be the least mis-contending in any kind about it, though many godly hearts may be grieved at it, and none can help it. These lines we now pen are rather to entreat all not to mistake the Apology, then to take you up.  
Reformat. pag. 3. The order and government of the reformed Churches in the beauty and strength thereof, as it is not hid in a corner, wrapped up in a mystery, or covered under a cloud of darkness, but is known to the Nations and kingdoms of the earth, openly professed and practised in the eyes of the world, etc. so it is commended and already confirmed by a long tract of time.  
Apol. Yet we presume you will join issue with us in this against the Papists, that neither visibility, nor succession are essential notes of a true Church. The holy Ghost prophesied that the true Church, Revel. 12. should be hid in the wilderness for a long time; as yours and ours were many years before Luther's time. You yourselves confess, pag. 16. That the usurpation and tyranny of Prelates and Prelatical party, did a time so reign and rage in your Kingdom, vexing the godly Ministry and people, that those that went to New England durst not venture to come to you to find a visible Church liberty. And pag. 11. That you long time could but intent and design the government of the Church by Assemblies and Presbyteries. So you. How visible soever the Churches be, the eyes of the world (of which you speak) will take but little cognizance; or if they do, will give but a slender testimony to them; whiles one Church differing but in some pieces of Discipline, will so disfavour others that jump not with them. Blessed be God (brethren) that God hath made a Rehoboth for you, that you are not now kept up in a corner. 
Gen. 26. 22.  Though other Churches have not yet attained that enlargement of place and peace, yet they keep not up their minds in a mystery if Narrations, Apologies and Disputes may make men understand. And as for the clouds of darkness which may cover them; who can hinder the winds if they blow and bring black weather out of the North, or West, to obscure them that love not to sit out of the Sun beams; much less to be wrapped up in black sheets. But they desi●e with patience and peace to bear all; waiting till that great Question be resolved, which Discipline be the truly ancientest, and of longest tract of time (hic labour, hoc opus) and not to beg the question.  
Reformat. p. 4. The instruments which the Lord used in the blessed work of Reformation of the Church of Scotland, were not only learned and holy men, but had somewhat in their callings, and gifts, and zeal to the glory of God, more than ordinary. Some of them had a prophetical spirit; and some of them were honoured to be Martyrs.  
Apologet. Nor hath the Lord (blessed be his name) left us without such. Persecuted Brightman (whom p. 15. you name with honour) had those gifts of learning, zeal, and spirit of prophesy you mention; compare the late events both in 〈◊〉 Kingdom and ours with his Comment on the Revel. who though he did justly prefer your Churches in his time before some others, yet not a Classical Presbytery before a congregational government, for aught that we have read or heard. And what less than a spirit of prophecy was in that holy Martyr persecuted to death by the Bp. that said, that the Lord would bring in his own discipline in 
1 Sam. 3. 11.  his time in that way as would make all their ears to tingle: Which Scripture phrase, was construed to be treason, though since like a prophecy it is fulfilled. For martyrdom unto a civil death we can say somewhat more, though we do but mention Cartwrit, and Parker, whom you justly mention with honour in your Peaceable Plea. But we list not to enlarge; therefore we omit our brethren in New England. Because though martyrdom be a kind of seal, yet being a broad seal to all the truths in the Scripture, it doth not distinguish ad apicem, to put a greater impression on one truth then on another. For in all ages some Saints have by suffering chief sealed to some present truth: as the Apostles against 
2 Pet. 1. 12.  Judaisme, the Saints in the ten persecutions against Hethenisme, Athanas●●s against Arrianisme, Luther against Papism, You against Prelacy. And others against an Ecclesiastical coactive power where Christ hath not settled it.  
Reformat. pag. 7. As the Church of Scotland agreed in some things with the reformed Churches, so it cannot be satisfactory that any Church should only practise some things universally received in the reformed Churches.  
Apol. A bare relation of the words of the Apology is a sufficient answer to this, which are these. 1 The supreme rule without us was the primitive pattern and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles. 2 Not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto ourselves for future. 3 That in matters of greatest moment and controversy we still chose to practise safely, and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts, or the most of all Churches did acknowledge warrantable. So the Apolog. By which words it is apparent that their intent and endeavour was not only to practise some things universally received in the reformed Churches; but to go full as far forth, as the Churches founded by the Apostles. But for matters of greatest moment and controversy, in what particulars the reformed Churches (in their best judgements) left the pattern of the Apostolical Churches, ther● they suspended their assent and practise, but joining with them in the rest. Keeping this for a reserve, that when further light should come in, that they might do more lawfully, then formerly they durst do; then to do it, and be disengaged from their former judgement and practice, which in effect you profess, pag. 15. saying, that the Church of Scotland may admit of further reformation. Therefore it is supposed that for the present you only practise some things of reformation; and that for future when you have more light and power, you will advance from your present practice to a further.  
Reformat. pag. 6. They did honour Luther and Calvin, etc. who had an heart or band, etc. in the blessed work of Reformation, etc. But for this to call us Calvinians, and the reformed Churches Calvinian reform Churches, is to disgrace the true Churches of Christ, and to symbolise with the Papists, who call themselves the Catholic Church, etc. The Separation may be well allowed to be called Brownists.  
Apologet. Ah brethren, from what spirit comes all this? The whole design of framing a confutation of a plain, simple, modest, single hearted narration, relished bitter upon multitudes of godly and judicious palates. But here we have met (if we mistake not the drug) with the Coloquintida, or if it be intended for a better Recipe, it is scalding hot, if our taste fails us not. Can the Apology possibly be conceived in the word Calvinian to intent the least grain of disgrace to any? Is it not the term used in all the true Christian Churches for distinctions sake from the more corrupt Lutheran? Is it not in opposition to them (more corrupt) a term of honour? Was it not used of purpose to decline the word Presbiterian, that less offence might be taken whiles the terms now in controversy were waved? Doth not the Apology deeply profess that multitudes of Churches in England were true Churches; and yet for honour of you, calls the Churches of Scotland more reform? But you object, that this is to symbolise with the Papist, who call themselves the Catholic Church: we take your objection to be our full answer. As sure as the Papists do not intent to disgrace themselves in calling themselves Catholics; so sure is it believed that the Apologists who are Calvinians in Doctrine at least (if not more) did not intent to disgrace themselves and the brethren (holding the same doctrine and truth) with the term Clavinian. Yet, as if in revenge, you ding 
Apol. p. 5.  the words Separation, and Brownists against the Apologists, who had so clearly renounced that rigid opinion and way in their Apology. As if you had forgotten, or did intent to misapply what you had said but the next line afore quoted out of Hierom. viz. If any where we find men professing Christianity, called by the particular names of men, know them to be the synagogue of Antichrist, and not the Church of Christ. Oh unhappy conjunction; oh heavy application, oh coalblack terms; Quod ego— Sed motos praestat componere fluctus. Were it not for patience, nay that would hardly do it; were it not for reverence of you and your Nation; an home answer would be shaped, to such a misshapen misprision. But to love is to live. The Kingdom is on fire, we need not hold coals to one another. Peace be upon the sons of peace; But let not that imputation fall upon us, to set our houses on fire to roast our own eggs.  
Reformat. pag. 10. Nothing was farrer from their thoughts and intentions then to frame in their own forge a lesbian rule answerable to any particular form of civil policy, or compliable with State ends.  
Apolog. Whether these words in the Apology, pag. 3. (for you tread upon the heels of the Apology step after step) We had no n●w Commonwealths to rear, to frame Church government unto, do provoke to any such answer, let all indifferent men judge. For who doth not know that you had no new Commonwealths to rear? This might fare easier been understood of New England, and yet without surmise of any blame laid upon them, who had the King's Patent for what they did in policy, as God's Word for Church government, which they have followed close with a great deal of judgement.  
Reformat. pag. 11. Nor do we know any reason why education in s●und doctrine, and true worship should be accounted a matter of thanksgiving to God, and yet should glory in this, that we are not by education engaged i● any one form of Discipline, and Church government, but left to ourselves to be moulded by our own private thoughts.  
Apolog. There is no such doxology in the Apology, as to thank God for their disengagednesse from, or non education in true reformed Churches. They express their sorrow, that the defilement of the Churches of England, caused their exilement o●t of the Churches of England. Their naked words are only these. We were not engaged by education, or otherwise, to any other of the 
Apol. p. 4.  reformed Churches. And for your intimated charge of being left to themselves to be moulded by their own private thoughts, touching Church government, their own words do most transparently clear them. W● were not engaged (say they) by education, etc. to other of the reformed 
Apol. p. 4.  Churches; yet we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in writings and practice. We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our Divines (the good old No conformists) had struck forth in their times; and the d●●ughts of Discipline, which they had drawn. We had likewise the fatal miscarriages and shipwrecks of the Separation (whom ye call Brownists) as landmarks to forewarn us of those rocks and 〈◊〉 they ran upon, and t● inquire into the principles that might be the c●●ses ●f their divisions. Last of all, we had the recent and later examples of the ways, and practices (and those improved to a better edition and greater re●●●ement, etc.) of those multi●udes of godly men of our own Nati●●, 〈◊〉 to the number of mother Nation, and among them some as holy and judicious Divi●es as this Kingdom hath bred. All which we looked upon nakedly according to the Word of God. Thus the Apology. Out of which words the venomous spider of envy cannot (much less you brethren that are men of a better spirit) extract and draw justly this conclusion, That the Apologists intended to mould a government in and by their own private thoughts. They were not so left to themselves by the oppositions of the times, but that they carried with them the golden measuring reed of the Word of God; and did with all the judgement and divine assistance they had, measure and square every inch as they built. Nor doth it yet appear to some that wishly look after these things, in what material things their buildings differ from others, unless about the general and common roof, whether it shall be the monstrous Arches of Episcopacy, or the cemented vault of a classical Presbytery, or of Jerusalem work of an Apostolical Council. And this main question is now among them, Quos penes arbitrium est, & vis, & norma loquendi.  
Reformat. pag. 11. The Churches planted by the Apostles, if not at first, yet afterwards were of greater number in one City, than did, or could ordinarily assemble in one place for the worship of God, and therefore had a plurality of Pastors, and Officers, which made a common Presbytery for governing the whole.  
Apologet. These words makes a speech of a Judge at an Assizes touching Lent-fastings to come to mind. Who said, that he could prove that Lent-fastings were of Apostolical institution for the last six hundred years. Whereupon one standing by said to another of his friends, That all the craft and cunning lay in this, for the Judge to prove it to be Apostolical for the first six hundred years, or the first hundred or first f●urty years. But to return to the Apology; whose words are mild, and soft, but as wooll-packs deadning Cannon shot, that the bullets can do no hurt, can make no battery. We could not 
Apol. p. 13.  (saith the Apology) but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles, were ordinarily, of no more in one City at first, than might make 
Observe that the same argument that is urged to prove a Presbytery, was formerly urged by the Bishops to prove an Episcopacy.  up one entire congregation, ruled by their own Elders, that also preached to them: For that in every City where they came, the number of converts did, or should arise to such a multitude as to make several and sundry Congregations, or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all, until they risen to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyterial combination, we did not imagine. We found also the Nonconformists in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopal government over many Churches, brought from the instances of the multitudes of believers at Jerusalem, and other places and Cities mentioned in the New Testament, to assert, that it could not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts, or elsewhere, were yet so numerous, as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times. So the Apology. The word afterwards hath a large extent, and therefore d●●h no● punctually tell us whether you mean after the Apostles ti●es or when, and therefore doth nothing weaken the Apo●●●●i●, and so you and we must leave it as we found it unblemished in this, as the rest; which is the only design in this paper, leaving it to disputation to be discussed out.  
Reformat. pag. 13. To a●●uch when we are not challenged, that we 〈…〉 to the Magistrate than the reformed Churches do, they being 〈…〉 their own principles of Ecclesiastical government, may suffer a 〈◊〉 ●●●st●uction than we ourselves would willingly undergo, or put upon the intentions of men, who seek not their own things, but the things of Jesus Christ.  
Apolog. Let the world judge whether the Apologizers and those of their judgements were not challenged, when the Peaceable Plea calls them, not only in the book, but in the title of the book in the face of the world, Independents. Which the Apology could not but upon just grounds, count as a proud and insolent title (for any 
Apol p 23.  to assume) and as a trumpet of defiance against what ever power, Spiritual or Civil; from them that should be conceived to own it; and therefore do in express words there abhor it, and detest it: that Churches, and Magistrates should not lose the true face of their judgement in such a swelling title. For if upon a gross error of 
Reform. p. 23. C●●●ule Bez●m de Haereticis a civili Magistr pu●●●ndis.  an another Church they dare exercise only a non communion with it, which after you call no authority; then there is more left for the Magistrate to do, then when you have excommunicated it, which you call there, your power. So likewise when a classical Presbytery, of many Ministers and lay-men, and those of great place and power in the Commonwealth, shall authoritatively rule all matters of sixty or an hundred Parishes that are but mixedly Ecclesiastical but partly secular or civil, if some of them not so altogether, one would think now that here were left less to the Magistrate, then when every one of those several Parishes regularly gathered into a Church way do meddle with nothing, as Churches, but things purely Ecclesiastical; leaving the rest to the Magistrate who is the civil power over them all. We give for the present some small instance to take off the prejudices of us that may be instilled into the minds of civil power by the abhorred name of Independency; and not to bring any or their way into an odium with any; as we hope they in their books that have so oft up the names of Separation, Brownism, Independency, Popular Anarchy, etc. do not intent to render us odious. For till Church government be clearly discussed according to the Scriptures, the scale is even which side (to use your own words) doth most imitate the Pagans and Infidels of old, the Papists, Prelates, and Arminians 
Reform. p. 13.  of late to make the way of Christ hateful to Princes and Magistrates. And till it doth appear whose principles are closest to the rule of the Word, all will say (in your phrase) that they give fully as much as any, to the Magistrate as God in his Word giveth them; and so cannot be more or less. And for our own parts, to wash our own hearts from finister intentions, we wish a curse upon those designs, that shall flatter men to facilitate a forming, and winding in of a Discipline that shall not be the closest to the Scriptures.  
Reformat. pag. 17. No sooner is the Prelatical party by the power and blessing of God begun to be subdued in this Island, but ariseth unexpectedly the opposition on the other hand, waiting the opportunity, stronger than it was before, which moved some of our Divines of late to write on this hand in defence of the government of the reformed Churches, as others had done before them in other Churches. In France Beza against Morelius Sadeel. Two Nationall Synods also of the reformed Churches in France, the one at Orleans, 1561. Another at Rochel, 1571.  
Apolog. It should seem by your own quotations here that long before your No sooner, etc. not staying to wait this opportunity, learned and godly men have written, near an hundred years since against Classical Presbyteries, and for congregational Churches. Besides those many worthy famous men which you quote with honour in your Peaceable Plea. As for Mr. Beza against Morelius Sadeel, his Tract is not at hand, and therefore we cannot now speak to it particularly, But this ●ou know, that an honest Aeriu● a Presbyter is condemned by a pi●●s and learned Epiph●nius as guilty of heresy, for saying that a B●●hop did not differ from a Presbyter, but that a Presbyter was as high in dignity and order as the Bishop 
* Quid est Episcopus ad Presbyterum? Nihil hic differt ab illo, unus enim est ordo, & unus (inquit) honour, & una dig●itas. Imponit manus Episcopus? ita etiam Presbyter, etc. Epip. contra haeres. li. 3. To. 1. ca 75. . That to celebrate the Passeover was Jewish. That the prayers of the l●ving did not profit the dead. That their ordained set F●●sts Q●●rta & pro Sabbató were not to be observed. Yet the same Epiphanius (who flourished about the year 365. after Christ, so long since) confesseth, that Aerius was not alone in this opinion, but multitudes more, keeping 
Magnum m●ltitu●i●ent virorum a● muli●●um allexit. 〈…〉 a● fibrii 〈…〉  together (inform of a particular Church) with the said Aerius, their Teacher, all of them living very soberly. For the two Synods you mention, for want of copies of them (nor do we in this business desire much to turn over books, but take what is ready at hand, unless hereafter we shall be forced thereunto) we shall speak but a word in general; that as one of the best of our English Articles t●ll us, 〈◊〉 have and may err, therefore Synods. If Paphnutius were alive, he could tell us by experience. Christ's enlightening and leading presence is much according to the orderly gathering and managing of Synods. And for the Protestant Churches in Fran●e; If we may believe our ears hearing the reports of some of the Ministers of the French Churches here in England (considerable too as the Dutch) or our eyes in reading the Ecclesiastical Discipline of the reformed Churches in France, many material particulars, and passages are for us; which we omit here, as not intending a dispute or largeness in any thing. So that if things be weighed we are not so alone, or heterogeneal, as that we deserve the opinion that we should not be for the Reformed Churches so far forth as they be reform, at least as much as the Presbyterians.  
To those intimations of Reform. pag. 19 that the Apologizers' exile was voluntary: they carried away Churches with them, and left the ●ther Church●s, that stayed behind, exposed to the enemy; The Apol. hath no more to say at this time, but this. That their exile at most was but as voluntary, as the Seamens 
* Voluntate ●●xta semiplena, with an unwilling will.  casting their lading into the Sea, to save themselves from drowning. They took no more than Christ gave them: when they persecute you in one place, fly into another, as Christ and his parents did. And they did no more expose the Church to the enemy, then as in all ages other godly Colonies of Saints have done in departing to Francfort, Holland, and New England, lest they themselves also had been swallowed up too, and the other Churches never an iota relieved by it; but kept themselves for a reserve, to assist the Church at their return. Hoping that if they were blamed for their voluntary departing, they shall not for their voluntary return; to unexpose the Church to the least claw, or shadow of Prelacy.  
Reformat. p. 21. T● limit the con●iere of excommunication, in matter of opinion to the common and uncontroverted principles, and in 
The true copy of the Apology is thus. Excommunication we judge should be put in execution for no other kind of sins, th●n may evidently b● presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light, as wh●ther it be a si● in manners & conversa●●n, such as is committed ag●n●t the light of nature, or the common rece●ved practices of Christianity professed in the Church of Christ. Or if in opinion, than such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity, & the power of godliness professed by the p●rty himself, & universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches, and ●●●th●r sins to be the sub●ect of that dreadful sentence.  the matter of manners to the common and universal practices of Christianity, and in both to the parties known light, is the dangerous doctrine of the Arminians, and Socinians, openeth a wide door, and proclaimeth liberty to all other practices and errors which are not fundamental, 〈◊〉 universally abhorred by all Christians, and tendeth to the overth●●w of the Reformed Religion, which we wish all sound and sober spirit's t● abstain fr●m, lest it render them and their profession suspected of s●me su●●●●●panions 〈◊〉 and practices, as in chari●ie we judge to be fa● from their minds and 〈◊〉.  
Ap●l●g. If Pagans and Infidels do not practise, and Papists, Prelates, S●●inians, A●minians, B●ownists, Separatists, etc. do not hold some common truths with Christians (as sense is common to men and be but condoll our condition, that when we assert (against mis-opinion of us) that we give to Magistrates as much as the Presbyterians do, we are compared to Pagans, Infidels, Prelates, etc. as bringing the way of Christ into hate with Princes: when we speak for a conforming of Church government to the closest agreement with the Scriptures, we are compared to Brown●sts, Separatists, Independents, and Popular Anarchy. When we judge that excommunication should not be but of persons presumed to sin against their own light, etc. we are compared to S●cinians and Arminians, if not semi-suspected to be such, though not by any English heart. If these be right forms of confutation, the common people will begin to pride up themselves as to have said somewhat to the Question now in controversy, whiles they assert (instead of better arguments) that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted; and a Presbytery is a Bishop diffused. The former is as a precedent; the other as a Commission exercised by many. Doth not this very particular of excommunication testify for us that the Congregational way doth leave more to the Magistrate, than the Presbytery do? Many offences are to be punished bodily, by the Civil Magistrate, that are not to be censured with that spiritual highest censure of Excommunication. Which being a shutting out of heaven, and a giving up to Satan, had need of better grounds than men's sinning of simplicity, or ignorance. The very Prelates, at least pretended wilful obstinacy for their Excommunications. And the great punishment of Excommunication inflicted for small faults, will make the punishment at last small in the eyes of men. But if it be restrained to great faults against the party's light, men will think the punishment to be like the sin. And yet no door set open to other vices; which Civil power may punish externally for the fact; whiles Churches look upon faults spiritually in relation to the mind, with what will they were committed.  
Reformat. pag. 23. Two main objections are made against the principles and practice of the order and government of the Reformed Churches. One is that there is no need of authoritative power of Presbyteries, and Synods, and that the exhortation of particular Churches one to another, the Protestati no● one against another, and the withdrawing of communion one from another, may be a sufficient remedy, and no less effectual against all offences than Excommunication itself; especially if the Magistrate shall vouchsafe his assistance, and interpose his authority, for strengthening th● sentence of Non communion.  
Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods; which being according to the Scriptures, they hold them in the highest esteem that ever the Scripture advanced them to. And on the other side, they there give us an express, that besides the said exhortations, protestations, and Non communion, that they profess themselves ever to submit, and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civil Magistrate interposing a power of another nature, upon his particular cognizance, and examination of such causes.  
Reformat. pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer, 1 (for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation) that this objection supposeth a case, which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eighty years, and believe was never heard of in any of the Reformed Churches, except those of the Separation: the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church. Our Excommunication hath been executed but seldom against particular members, never against a whole Church, and we think never shall be; and therefore this imaginary fear of that which never falleth out, is not considerable, rules are made for ordinary, and usual cases.  
Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apology, and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called, their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches, their just account of their practice in Holland, and their proceed towards the Church mistaking, would after all this call the Apologizers' Churches, Churches of the Separation; unless withal they expressed they meant Separation from the Prelate's ways, as Scotland and England now do. But what ever true Churches be named, we see no reason (though others believe quod factum non est, nec fieri potest; that which never hath been, never shall be) but that they may be incident and liable to fall into that case of having to do with a whole particular Church erring; especially till those swarms of Anabaptists, Antinomians, etc. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our ears, be allayed. You (brethren yourselves) suppose more, and therefore you may suppose the less. For in your second answer to this objection (as you call it) you suppose that two, or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non communi●● one against another. In which case, say you, pronouncing of non com●●●ion would prove rather a mean of division, then of union, and there wou●d be no remedy (where the censure is mutual) to compose this difference, unless there be a common Presbytery, or Synod made up of the whole. To which we answer, that this case hath befallen Provinces, and National prelatical Churches, in matter of Excommunication too, each of them having a several Pope in them have excommunicated one another. And we see not that antidote in one of the ways you mention, namely, a Classical Provincial Presbytery, but that one provincial Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other. For the other way (for you propound two, and we are willing to take the best) namely, a Nationall Synod, gathered and guided according to the Scriptures, we willingly embrace. And they that will not take the judgement of such a Synod, having no Scripture to allege justly, against their resolutions, let them fall into the hands of the Magistrate, the Preserver of the public peace. This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer. We need add but a word in reply to your fifth answer, wherein you demand by what probability it can be made to appear to any rational man, and indifferent mind, that no authority shall be as valid as authority against the obstinate, that Via admonitionis & requisitionis is equal with Via citationis, & publicae authoritatis? To which we answer, that if it be stated that that is authority, which is Scripture authority (and not else) and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus elicitos, the mind, rather than that which doth only manacle and constrain, actus imperat●s, the outward carriage; the demand is soon answered. Is the way of admonition, protestation, and non communion, no authority? Is that no authority that tells us we must give no offence, Better a millstone were hanged about one's neck, and he cast into the Sea, then to offend a weaker brother. That we were better not eat flesh then to offend, etc. Or is it no authority, when a whole Church after fasting and prayer, and clear disputation, shall tell the obstinate erring, that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans? The truth is, that the prelatical men have made much use of this your case alleged to plead for Bishops, as most necessary to keep Churches in union. But God's authority held forth to us in the judgements of Nationall Synods according to the Word, will prove more effectual than any humane instituted way whatsoever, to unite Churches.  
Reformat. pag. 24. The other objection is; that by this authority and order of government, one Church hath power over another: which is contrary to that liberty and equality Christ hath endued his Churches with, and is no other but a n●w prelatical dominion set over the Churches of Christ. To this (say you) we answer. 1 That we are far from imposing any such collateral power. The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Officers of many Congregations over the particular members; in which (as in the natural and politic body) one member is not subject to another, but is to the whole. 2 It is (say you) a miserable mistake to compare Presbyteries and Prelates together. For the Courts of Prelates are altogether foreign and extrinsecall in the Congregations, over which they rule. But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and natural, they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations ●ver which they are set. So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them, but all of them by common consent do rule over every one; which is no more than ●●r a memb●●●f a particular Congregation, to be ruled by his own particular Eldership. F●r they discern no sentence of excommunication of any member without the knowledge, and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein.  
Apolog. You say you impose n●t a collateral power. Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders (suppose) of twenty congregations. And the authority of 19 of them is as collateral. The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we hear not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others; though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are ready enough to consent so to rule: which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacy, if Episcopacy be as intrinsecall as Presbytery. For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment; where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception; and hath in part been practised in England, though with little success in their domineering times? Just as anciently, (as Hieronimus tells us) Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur, etc. To avoid schism, one of the classical Presbytery was chosen to be as Chairman over them all in their Consistory, who from being so annually, at last became so for his life time, and so hence was born Episcopacy. Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains, Chancellor, Archdeacon, Register, etc. were parishioners within their own Diocese; if not Elders or Officers in their several congregations. And people formerly have been as willing they should reign, as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbytery over them. And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations; they grounding their Court proceed upon the Churchwardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the people's complaints and testimony, and did not pass an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconry, or Countie-Presbyterie; and last of all, the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation. So that it is clear, it is not people's consent only, but if according to the Word, that makes a government lawful. God hath chalked out to us patterns of people choosing Officers for the congregation. And congregations choosing men for Synods or Counsels, but not (as we conceive) of choosing men to make a middle classical Presbytery. What ever plausible shows of reason may seem to commend a way, yet only God's way shall have the blessing of God upon it. And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet, clearly which is it, let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions. That th●se that are m●st averse to 
☜ Reform. p. 26.  Presbytery if they allow no material difference in doctrine, worship, or practise, might enjoy their peace, and all comforts of their Ministry, and profession under it, without controlment of that authoritative power which they so much apprehend. We have been of late made to fear the contrary, by the reports of some (not of meanest rank) of your own Nation, but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands, then fear by reason of theirs. Trusting also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly, so you will be as helpful to our poor Churches as your Armies by God● blessing are like to be the Commonwealth; according as both Nations have vowed to endeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in Doctrine, Worship, Discipline, and Government, according to the Word of God. 
〈◊〉 p. 26.   
We crave leave to conclude with your own words, hoping we may as confidently speak them as you did; namely, That so much for the present have we said, not for confutation, but merely for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such misrepresentings and mistake, as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place, a● this time, etc.  
FINIS.