A Copy of a Letter, with its Answer, concerning a contest at Worcester between a Minister and a Quaker. Dear Friend, I AM informed of a great and late contest at Worcester, in public, between a Doctor of Physic, and a Minister, wherein the Minister nonplussed his opposite, and substantially proved his Calling and Ministry true and Divine; but ask the Reporters how, or by what Scriptures or Arguments he did so prove it, they cannot inform me; wherefore let me entreat, to hear from you the full truth, both of manner and matter, how he proved the same, etc. for indeed, both with us, and in many other places in this Nation, our best and ablest Ministers, are at so great a loss, and so hard put to it, in this, & some other respects (wanting that power and authority to back, and make good their Arguments, which formerly they had) that I cannot but much pity them, and fear what may become of them at last: Thus desiring your speedy return, with my love to you, and your Bed-fellow, presented, I rest. Feb. 25. 1655. The Answer followeth. SIR, ALthough less able to answer your desire (in yours of the 25. Instant) then others who were present at the contest; yet what I know thereof upon exactest inquiry, I shall declare unto you, which in effect is as followeth. THIS Contest was in Saint Swithins Church, on Friday the 22. of Feb. between one Edward Born a Physician (termed a Quaker) and one Mr. Baker, a Minister in Worcester, where the said Edward Born charged the said Mr. Baker to be no true Minister of Christ, his reason was, because he did not abide in the Doctrrine of Christ; to which a by-stander answered, Every Believer ought to abide in Christ's Doctrine, therefore that was no special Mark to denote a true Minister by; to which might have been replied, It being the duty of every Believer, it's the Duty of every Minister much more: But I conceive Edward B●rns Reason deficient more upon another ground (to wit) because the Doctrine or Gospel of Christ is altogether as much controverted for in the world, what it is, as the Ministers of Christ, whom or where it is; and therefore to seek to prove one doubtful thing by another, as doubtful, is no better than beating the Air. But at Edward Borns departure, there was a loud and very uncivil * he that hacked cloth beyond Justice and honesty, strained zeal beyond wisdom and modesty: Prov. 13.16. clapping of hands, and hissing, by some then present, of rude breeding and behaviour; after which Mr. Baker taking the Pulpit, undertook to prove the truth of his own Ministry & † Which if he could do, he would do all at once; for than he ought to be heard as Christ or God himself. Luk. 10.16 Divine Calling to preach the Gospel; for which purpose he cited Matt. 28.18, 19, 20. where Christ telling his Apostles that all Power was given to him both in Heaven and Earth, gave them Commission to preach the Gospel in all Nations, promising to be with them always, even to the end of the world; where he reasoned to this effect. This promise here is not to be confined to these his eleven Apostles, who lived not long after, but is to be extended to their successors, who from age to age were to continue on earth to the end of the world; and he being ordained subordinately from these Apostles, and by that Authority there given to them, Power and Authority was directed successively from hand to hand to him, whereby he was made, and doth stand a true Minister of the Gospel of Christ; and this he offered to maintain for truth against all that should contradict, or would oppose the same: But this our confident young man might have considered: 1. That, to the end of the world there, may in probability be understood, to the uttermost part of the earth, as in Acts 8. where the extent hath reference toplace, not to time. 2. But admit this Promise of Christ, his being with his true Ministers to the end of the world, be absosolute, (as he expounded it) yet, how can this directly, or by any good consequence, prove M. Baker's Ministry true, or to be derived from these Apostles, any more than it proves the Pope, and all his Mass-Priests Ministry to be true, and derived from them. Obj. But Mr. Baker moreover allegeth a Seal which he had to his Ministry, proving the truth thereof, meaning men convicted by him to believe and embrace his Doctrine, etc. Ans. Had not the Arians this Seal, when their Doctrine was so generally received throughout Christendom, as it caused an ancient Father to say, that the whole world was become an Arrian: And have not the Anabaptists, the Quakers, and many other in our times, (esteemed by Mr. Baker Heretics, Schismatics, or at least deceivers) who have this Seal as much, and more than Mr. Baker; nay Mahomet himself, upon this account, will much outvie M. Baker, and may be proved a true Prophet, and to be sent by the most High God. But if it be well considered, it will appear that the aforesaid promise of Christ, recorded in Mat. 28. is Conditional; and therefore cannot serve for that purpose for which it was alleged, the Text bearing this Reading, and sense, viz. Going therefore, disciplize (or make Disciples) all (or in all) Nations † here is not meant the baptism with Water, as is generally held by such as would be accounted true Ministers, and sent of God. baptising them into the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost; teaching them (to wit, the baptised Disciples (to observe all things (without adding, omitting, or diminishing any thing) whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, to wit, in your so doing) I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Now there is nothing more evident in Scripture then this, viz. That Christ taught, yea and straightly charged and commanded these his eleven Apostles, that they should not go out in the exercise of that their Commission, or high Ministerial Function of preaching the Gospel, until they were endued with power from on high, by the coming down of the Holy Ghost upon them, Luke 24.29. Acts 1.4, 5.8. which was fulfilled within few days after, Act. 2.3, 4, whereby they were enabled not only to attest the truth and Divine Authority of that their Ministry and Doctrine, Mark 16.29. Acts 5.12.15, 16. Heb. 2.4. but were also made able Ministers of the Spirit to believers, by laying their hands on them, Acts 8.15, 16, 17. Acts 19.1, 2.6. compared with Eph. 1.13. 2 Cor. 3.6. Acts 2.38, 39 2 Tim. 1.6. Hence therefore may be reasoned. If Mr. Baker will derive the Authority of his Ministry subordinately from these eleven Apostles to himself (as aforesaid) he must then also in like manner derive the force and virtue of this * here our new Preachers and Divines, of what kind, size or sort soever, may take notice of their running also before they be sent; the Anabaptist in special may see his great Error, in taking commistion to teach and baptise from this Text (in Matt. 28.) which gives no Authority at all to any, it being only a recital of an Authority given and exercised long before the writing thereof, which was not the more for its being written, nor had it been the less if it had never been written. prohibition from them also to himself; how he can rationally avoid this, I cannot imagine, because no greater Authority can possibly be derived from them, than what they themselves had from Christ; but they themselves bade not from Christ Authority to exercise that Ministerial Function of preaching the Gospel to the world, until they themselves were endued with Power from on High, as aforesaid: Therefore, etc. For what they had not themselves, cannot be derived from them, by, or to Mr. Baker, or any man else. Unto all which Mr. Baker himself contributes by the next Scripture, cited by him, (to second his former, to prove the continuance of a true MINISTRY upon Earth) namely, Ephesians 4.8.11. etc. which Mr. FRANCIS then present out of the same PULPIT had likewise done not long before, before, viz. cited the same Text in the same sense, to prove the same thing, whereby it is granted (implicitly at least) by both these, 1. That a gifted Ministry is the true Ministry of Christ. 2. That the true Ministers of Christ consists of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers by gift from above. And 3. That such are successively to continue in the Church of Christ, for the perfecting of the Saints for the successive work of the Ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, consisting also of gifted Believers, Mark 16, 17, 18. 1 Cor. 12.7.12, 13. Rom. 12.4, 5. Eph. 2.22, 23. till they all come into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature, or age, of the fullness of Christ. And now Sir, you may plainly see no misconstruction here put upon these two Gent. in their making use of this Text, to prove the continuance of a true Ministry upon earth; for where it is said in ver. the 11. that he gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers, the same is not to be understood, that he gave down such men, but that after his ascension he gave such gifts to men, as in ver. 8. whereby they were qualified and enabled from on high for the aforesaid several Offices and Employments, and that such were to continue successively in the Church of Christ. In this sense was this Scripture cited by them both, or else it was brought by them both to no sense: But haply they may object and say, Obj. That they and the like Orthodox Ministers are the true, or else there are none true in the world, for there are none such, or so qualified, as this and other Scriptures do set forth true Ministers, at first, to be. An. 1. The world is wide and large, and much unknown to us, such thererefore may be in the world though not known to us. 2. Whether there be any such or not, or wheresoever the true Ministry is, yet these are none, even by their own sense given of this Text, and epxerience is sufficiently had of the deficiency of the beft and ablest of those called Orthodox, in proving themselves to be Divine, and sent of God. And now having given you the substance of what upon my best intelligence I have learned, and what is material worthy your notice, I shall at present forbear to trouble you any further, save only to acknowledge myself to be, Febr. 20, 1655. Noble Sir, Your Servant much Obliged for manifold Favours.