A DIALOGUE, Containing a Compendious Discourse concerning the Present design in the West-Indies.  
Wherein is Demonstrated the Lawfulness, or rather Necessity of that War, with the unquestionable hopefulness of good success therein.  
Notwithstanding the obscenity of disaffected and non-experienced persons.  JEREM. 51.31. 
One Post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, to show the King of Babylon his City is taken at one end.  
LONDON, Printed for R. Lownds, at the White lion in S. Paul's Church-yard, near the West end, 1655.   

A DIALOGUE, Comprehending the substance of a Discourse concerning the present Design in the West-Indies.  soldier. 
WELL met Sir, I rejoice to see you, hoping you are in good health.  Sea-man. 
Sir, I thank you for your courteous salute, I am( through mercy) in health at present, I praise the Lord.  Soldier. 
I have for some time much desired not only to see you, but also to have some conference with you. And having now so happily met, I desire( if your occasions will permit) that at this time my desires may be accomplished herein.  Sea. 
My occasions however( at present) of concernment, shall give way to your desires; accounting it happiness that I may be honoured with your company and discourse, which I doubt not will be advantageous to me.  Sold. 
Sir, The subject of the Discourse which I desire may be insisted on, relates to the design now on foot against the Spanjards in the West Indies, which is now indeed the discourse of the Nation.  Sea. 
Sir, As to that, I have much cause to believe you are satisfied in yourself in all particulars; and the rather, because you are daily conversant with those that principally carries on the business; whose Principl's you are so well acquainted with, that their very owning the business is satisfactory.  Sold. 
Sir, That they are satisfied in themselves, is out of question with me; but truly( at present) in myself there remains some scruples which I desire to be satisfied in, and the rather, because( being a Soldier) I am as subject to be drawn forth to that service as any other.  Sea. 
Sir, I do in these particulars desire to be excused, being not so endowed with those faculties of persuasive arguments as ene ought to be fitted with, that takes upon him to resolve the doubts of another.  Sold. 
Sir, That which I desire of you is, only your own thoughts of the design, and whether you judge it a lawful Design or not.  Sea. 
Sir, I shall crave one favour of you( before I say any thing by way of answer) the which if you please to grant me, it will produce at least my thankfulness, and peradventure some part of satisfaction to you as to the matter in hand.  Sold. 
Sir, I shall very freely comply with your desire, if it lye in my power; and therefore what you desire to say, please to be very free in it, for be what it will, it shall give me no offence.  Sea. 
Sir, Your courtesy obliges me in bonds of thankfulness, and emboldens me to proceed to put this question to you, in regard you have been deeply engaged in the late wars of this Nation. I pray Sir, from whence did the lawfulness of that war proceed, and what did the lawfulness thereof consist of principally?  Sold 
Sir, The lawfulness of that war consisted of divers particulars. Thus, viz. the Lord was pleased to cause spiritual light to break forth in the midst of darkness, and the Sun of Righteousness began to appear above our Horizon, and to have its reflection upon the Sons and Daughters of the most high God, who spake forth as they were taught by the Spirit, and began to publish the glad tidings of the Gospel; this morning of our resurrection from our former condition of blindness and darkness, began to be clouded, and the clergy begun to heighten their persecution, and to imprison and stigmatize the messengers of Christ, and by all possible means endeavoured to put out the candle of the Gospel amongst us, and to light the stinking snuffs of Popery, and to inflame us both in things relating to the inward and outward man; labouring with all the power and might they could, to deprive us of that glorious light then breaking forth amongst us; and blotting out those precious truths of Christ which many souls have in former ages sealed to with their blood, endeavouring to destroy our precious souls, by betraying us into the hands of those murderers and massacrers of the Lords people, i.e. e. the Papal faction; whose malicious outrage against us, this,( as also former ages) have had large experience of. Now seeing the life of our precious souls, and the lives and liberties of our birthrights are at the stake, and fire and faggot in abundance, ready to consume all. The Lord giving us hearts and hands( with an opportunity) to appear in our own defence. We have so done, and in the strength of the Lord, have also prevailed as at this day.  Sea. 
Sir, I hope you understand me thus, viz. that at first, I questioned not the lawfulness of that War, but onely desired the grounds of it, which you have effectually given me.  Sol. 
Sir, I observe you put the question to me; not whether the said War was lawful or no: but rather where its lawfulness did consist.  Sea. 
Sir, I did so, and you have so clearly satisfied me, that I apprehended the glory of Christ, and advancement of his kingdom, the propagating of the Gospel, the liberty of the Saints, and also National privileges, which were all ready to be destroyed, were the only grounds of your engagements: and such infallible grounds as the Lord hath crwoned with such event, as his peoples Christian privileges are preserved, and the Gospel hath free passage; which is a mercy we have now so long enjoyed that( I fear) it is not prized to its worth.  Sold. 
We have all cause to bewail our ingratitude on that account.  Sea. 
Sir, Now I shall come to give you my thoughts and my reasons for them thus: Is the advancement of the Kingdom of Christ a thing so considerable, as to move one Englishman to sheathe his Sword in the Bowels of another: nay, in the bowels of a brother? Is the enjoyment of this glorious Liberty, so sweet, so excellent, that life itself is nothing in comparison of it? Are those soul-ravishing loves of Christ, so esteemable, so excellent, so sweet so glorious, that they will make a Paul and Silas sing in a prison, Martyrs rejoice in burning flames? Is this light glorious, and the blackness of darkness, terrible? sure these things are so; yea they are so excellently glorious, that we by and in the enjoyment of them, stand engaged in the highest Nature, to be friends to Christs friends, and enemies to his enemies, to the utmost of our powers, not omitting any opportunity, by which the powers of Antichrist may be weakened The Lord hath strengthened us in the appearings of ourselves in our own behalves, and doubtless will appear yet for us, if in sincerity of heart, we do lay out ourselves for, and on the behalf of Christ and his People, who yet are under the Egyptian Yoke of Bondage, from under which the Lord hath delivered us.  Sol. 
Sir, this you have said is truth, and is a very suitable Introduction, to what I suppose you have yet to say, as to this discourse now depending: therefore I pray proceed.  Sea. 
Sir, I shall now proceed to give you the particulars of my judgement, as to the question you have propounded; And first thus. ' Tie clear to me that the late War( in this Nation) was not an accidental War( as some seem to judge it:) But the absolute appearances of God( by his spirit in his People) against the powers of the world, which are Antichristian. Now if it be lawful for the spirit to war against the flesh( which is granted of all) then it must be so in the general, as well berwixt people of several Nations, as betwixt the people of one Nation, one against another.  
So that if it be lawful for the spirit in a man to war against the flesh of that man, and the people of a Nation to war against the people of the same Nation; being of an Antichristian spirit( as is already granted) and Scripture itself bears testimony to it.  
Then undoubtedly for us, a people in covenant with the Lord, it must needs be lawful for us, nay a duty incumbent upon us, to manifest ourselves enemies to the public and professed enemies of the Lord and his people.  Sol 
Sir as to these particulars of the constant warfare of the spirit against the flesh: and it against the spirit, and the lawfulness thereof, they are things generally received amongst, and believed of all that have any appearings or breathings of God in them, and therefore we judge what you have said, granted of all.  
And do desire you will proceed to more particular application of your discourse to the cleared up of the lawfulness of the present War with Spain, so as it is now begun.  Sea. 
Sir, 'Tis granted, that the Lord hath wonderfully appeared in England, and for England, having brought us out of darkness into light, and from the power of Satan unto God; having brought down the Mighty from their Seats, and exalted whom he pleased.  
And truly it is very clear from Scripture, that this work begun in this Nation, shall go forth from Nation to Nation, till all the Nations of the Earth have tasted of this Cup, Jer. 25. Now the contest is, light swallowing up of darkness. The spirit and power of Christ overturning and destroying the spirit and powers of Antichrist; which work being now begun, shall( though seemingly at a stand) how ever not desist till the design of Christ is accomplished, and his Name and his Glory one in all Lands.  Sol. 
Sir, your discourse relates to a spiritual work, which the Lord hath to carry on in the souls of the sons of men, mystically by his spirit, which we generally apprehended not to be a work of the sword, but of the spirit and word preached, for we do not understand the kingdom of Christ any other then his Indwelling presence in the soul of man, with its gifts and graces, which are the fruits thereof.  Sea. 
Sir, we shall leave this discourse you hint at: as not bring that subject in hand: And fearing time will out-strip me, I shall onely desire you to red and meditate( at your best leisure) these ensuing Scriptures, Jer. 25.15, 16, to the 34. Isai. 66.15.16. Isai. 63.6, 7. Isai. 14.21. to 28. Jer. 23.19, 20, &c.  
Whilst we proceed to a close of my Answer to your question, which I shall infer from your own words thus, viz.  
You have granted that your first ground of engagement in England, was for and on the behalf of Christ and the Gospel; To throw down Antichrist and his Adherents and( instrumontally) to make way for the free passage of the Gospel in this Nation, which through mercy is attained to in a large measure.  
Now I shall with all humility, use the words of our Saviour to Peter. When thou art converted strengthen thy Brethren: Peters conversion was not onely for himself. Now is Englands Conversion and enlargement only for its self?  
Hath Christ appeared( as we said at first) in England, by the Word, Spirit and Sword, and will he not yet appear for, and with England, if they engage for and on his behalf, against the powers of darkness, now reigning in other Nations?  Sol. 
Sir. I pray please to come to the life of the discourse, and close your Answer as briefly as conveniency will permit, for my spirits are on fire to hear more of this, to the purpose you seem to aim at.  Sea. 
Sir, you will please to remember, it's granted that it's lawful for the people of God to engage against the enemies of his glory.  Sol. 
Sir, that was granted at the first, but how this will led us to the breach of peace, with a neighbour Nation, I long to have cleared.  Sea. 
Sir, I shall proceed thus, bearing still in mind what is granted me, viz. The grounds of Englands ●… rst War, and what hath been hinted as to that. Greater enemies to the Lord Jesus his truths and people, is not in the world, then the people,( that man of sin) and his Adherents are, who sits in the very Seat of Christ, and takes upon him the very Office of Christ; exalting himself against( yea above) all that is called God, or that is worshipped; issuing forth indulgencies, for any manner of fact committed against the Laws of Christ upon his own terms, and for his own private and sinister ends, forbidding the use of Scripture, and valuing the mysteries of God with Jesuitical fomentations, and false Doctrines of Livels, by which means thousands of poor souls are( spiritually) murdered, and sent headlong into eternal darkness, whose blood( with the bloed of Saints) both in their degrees, cries for vengeance to be executed upon their betrayers and murtherers.  Sol. 
Sir, As to the Pope, 'tis granted, he is that man of sin, and son of perdition, which the Lord hath threatened to destroy, and whose utter ruin and desolation hasteneth; but what relation hath this to the lawfulness of a War with Spain?  Sea. 
Sir, If the Pope must fall, then the Pillars or main Supporters on which his power standeth must be first removed: And if so, then Spain must first be aimed at, who is his Right Hand; for he, and he onely, viz. the Spaniard maintains that bloody Inquisition, that crimson gulf, in which thousands of poor souls are( on all occasons) secretly swallowed up, and sent to their Beds of darkness: That cursed Court upholds the Man of sin, forcing men to live in darkness and ignorance, which they blasphemously call the mother of devotion; by whose power and cruelty the people of God living in or near their Territories, are persecuted, afflicted, and tormented, even as at this day.  Sol. 
Sir, this being granted, how will it appear that this way we have taken will bee the best way to bring down the enemies of the Lord, and work the deliverance of his people in captivity under them, seeing the place is far remote?  Sea. 
Sir, though the place be remote, as to distance of place, yet itis nigh as to the business depending. The Spaniard we have hinted is the Popes supporter, and the Treasure of the West-India's is the Spaniards strength. These Silver Sinews, and Golden Nerves, are the strength of the Man of sin; as to his external part, which to destroy is( instrumentally) the work of the Sword: Cut but in twain that Silver thread, and Babels brats will murder one another; stop but the current of this Silver stream, and they all die with thirst  Sol. 
Sir, you do much satisfy me with your discourse. But I pray illustrate your thoughts in this business more unto me; you seem to smother something which might give me much light in this business.  Sea. 
Sir, I  told you at the first, that I would not meddle with any persuasive Arguments to convince others. But onely tell you my own thoughts in this thing.  Sol. 
Sir, I expect no other but your own thoughts of it, and to that end I apprehended all your discourse tends; and no other ways; therefore I pray proceed further in this discourse.  Sea. 
Sir, I shall state England ( now) in the capacity of Israel, upon the Borders of Canaan, lately brought out of Egyptian Bondage, They are entred the Land, and the Walls of Jericho, are fallen by Faith, they have got footing and what must now be done. They must proceed according to command, to destroy the Inhabitants of that Land which God hath promised to give them.  Sol. 
Sir, I apprehended your discourse, and what you aim at; but we have not prospered in this thing, 'tis said the hearts of our men are taken away, and a handful of the enemy hath put our Army to flight, and divers of them to the sword, and this causeth many to think the Lord doth not own the work.  Sea. 
Sir, you speak to the purpose, there are many indeed scruple much at this. But pray let us take notice of the condition we have stated England in, and I am of the mind there will much satisfaction flow from it: England is stated in the capacity of Israel, entred Canaan, and Jericho is destroyed by Faith, which opened the way, Josh. 6.20. Now the next place Israel is to take in, is the City of Ai: Joshuah sends Spies to discover the City, who return, and tell him the people are but few, sand up part of the Army to take it, for the Body need not go: Joshuah sends, but his men are put to flight before the men of Ai, and some of them are slain: what is the matter now? pray what course takes Joshuah? doth he cry out the design is unlawful? No he makes his address to the Lord, as a Saint and soldier indeed. And pray what answer doth the Lord give him? viz. Get thee up, wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face, Israel hath sinned, they have meddled with the accursed thing: There's the matter. Here was no unlawfulness in the design, but unlawful things done in the managing of it.  Sol. 
Sir, pray what do you infer from hence, Israel was entred the Land of Canaan, and had Commission to destroy the Inhabitants and to possess their Land. But England though it hath prospered in matters at home, doth not so begin to prosper abroad; the reason may be for want of a Commission from God, which all those ought to have that take upon them to  shed blood. And though we had Commission to do what wee did at home, yet it is questionable whether wee have a just call to do what wee do abroad.  Sea. 
Sir, I though it had been granted from what hath been said. However( as I  told you at first it is clear to me this design is just, and God will no doubt own it, when managed according to his own way. }  Sol. 
Sir, pray what do you think might be the obstruction that our Forces fared no better?  Sea. 
Truly Sir, I shall not terminate the business: Onely my thoughts tell me it is possible there might bee some Achan amongst them.  Sol. 
Sir, how could that be, seeing none of them had had any opportunity to possess themselves of any Plunder from the Enemy.  Sea. 
Sir, though it was not in the hand, it is possible that is might be in the heart of some,( thatis worse,) The hands if defiled may bee washed with Water. The heart not without blood. If we put our hand to the Plough wee must not look back.  
The design is the Lords though carried on by Man. It is therefore of concernment to those that are or shall bee employed in it, to bee single hearted. And go forth to it as the Lords work( principally) and Mans but secondarily: to answer you more particularly; it was not the Plunder of Ai, that was Israels cause of flight, for Ai was not taken: But it was the sin of one Achan for a fact guilty of before that attempt was made.  Sol. 
Sir, I perceive itis very clear to you, that this War is lawful, but this exceeding bad success, doth yet stumble me very much.  Sea. 
Sir, I have given you one instance already in the business of Achan, please to take another which you shall find recorded in that 20. of Judges, where Israel is twice overcome of the Benjamites. And pray what did they do? cry out the design was unlawful( no) they make their addresses to the Lord, who the third time gave Benjamin into Israels hands.  
Besides if wee call to mind tha late Warres amongst ourselves, and consider how oft wee were but in a low condition. And had we then sate dewn and cried the design is unlawful where had the glorious liberty of the Saints then been? where had Gospel privileges been which once were prized above life? Please to call to mind, the business of Dunbar ( in Scotland) what capacity was our Army then in( as to the Arms of flesh) was there not some cause for us to fear the design was unlawful? The late dispute with the Dutch, may be almost worth our minding; how highly was that insulting enemy elevated? how did he boast himself in his own strength; and what if then we had cried out the design is unlawful, and had desisted to use the means: Sure ere this time we had all spoken perfect Dutch.  Sol. 
Sir, You have Coted Scripture, and stated England in the capacity of the israelites: But it seems to me, our commission from that Parrallel'd condition of theirs, with ours, is different, for they were absolutely commanded to destroy the Inhabitants of the Land of Canaan; to the end they might peaceably enjoy that good Land, as God had promised: Now so far we have done in our own Dominions and Territories; all is brought under subjection, either willingly or by constraint:  
But whether we may go out of our own limits or not, may be questioned.  Sea. 
Sir, As to Wars abroad I say thus,( Stating England with Israel) as formerly is said.  
Please to peruse( at your leisure) that twentieth of Deuteronomy, and there you shall find Laws and Rules for Israel to observe in their War with people that were not of the Cities of those Nations, vers. 25. for a destitute people, there was a destitute Law, contrary to the other:  
Which Law warranted Israel to war with any Nation or Nations, that were their enemies: And undoubtedly will warrant us to wage War with any Nation that is our enemy, which Spain is to the utmost, in intent, though other ways pretended in the compliment.  Sol. 
Sir, I perceive you are very clear in this thing, and free in your spirit for the lawfulness of it; you have also quoted Scripture, which tends to the purpose; so that it appears its clear to you, that the design is of God.  
Now I pray you what think you of it in a way of human sense, by Law of Nations; is there not something of inconveniency in it as to that.  Sea. 
Truly Sir, I am no States man, nor the least part of a politician; 'tis my custom onely to examine things so far as may tend to my own satisfaction, which I have already done, as to this thing; and therefore do desire your excuse at this time, for truly occasion begin to call me hence; therefore pray have me excused.  Sol. 
Sir, I pray let me crave your patience a little, you shall command as great a favour at my hands, if it lie in my power: Therefore I pray you a word in Answer to this last Question.  Sea. 
Sir, what I shall say as to this, is only thus much, viz.  
We are a people that call upon the Name of the Lord, and pretend( I hope more) the advancement of the Kingdom of Grace; and do, or ought at least to endeavour, the assistance of our distressed brethren in other parts, who dwell in the deserts of Egyptian darkness, though we are in the Land of Goshen; We are also a people, really despised of all this are round about us. The rather because we have pulled down that Horn of Kingly pride, so much adored amongst the Nations: There is also a spirit of division crept in amongst us; and the Sword must keep the Peace, or we shall destroy one another: And it concerns the Eyes of this Nation to look about them, and their hands to be active for their own defence; for certainly, certainly, evil determined of the Nations: We must endeavour to weaken the powers of Antichrist, or they will destroy us. God hath chosen us for a people to serve him in spirit and in truth; If we do so, he will own us: If we do become Laodeceans, he will spew us out of his mouth: yea a fearful spewing will come upon our glory: As to State matters, I leave them to those persons of State, whom they more immediately concern, desiring the keeper of Israel, may watch over them for good, that the people may call them blessed.  Sol. 
Sir, I perceive you are not free to give your judgement as to things that relate to human policy: I shall gather your mind from what hath been said; and do desire( in regard I perceive you have been in the Indiaes) you will give me some light of the nature of it, and how you think it may agree with constitutions that have been constantly in could Countries.  Sea. 
Sir, Experience tells me that Temperance is( next to God) health's preserver in those parts: the Country being very pleasant and desirable: And the hardships a soldier meets withall, there very facile to be born, in regard of the continual warmth: As to long Marches you need not question good Quarters upon your way, the Fouls of divers sorts, will make you music all the day, and sup you at night; only you must be prudent in furnishing yourself with water, upon all occasions, which you will sinned enough of, flowing from betwixt the silvered Hills; and of all sorts of varieties of other provisions you will not lack: Its not to inhabit a Wilderness, but rather a Canaan that they go to, that go thither.  Sol. 
Sir, but I am informed, that some are sickly, and others die by reason of the extremity of the heat in those parts.  Sea. 
Truly Sir, some are sickly and some die in London, in England, in all parts; our lives and he alths is in the hands of the Lord: And India is as England, if God so please to order it: so I have found it, and so I hope to find it, if my lot fall in that ground.  Sol. 
Sir, I am informed that the soldiery are in danger to go through many hardships there, and that service will be very hard.  Sea. 
Sir, they that tell you so, will do well to deep them out of harms way: I pray tell me wherein the hardship of service consists, 'tis probable I may mistake, or may have for got some few former experiences which once( in part) I have had.  Sol. 
Sir, the hardship of a Souldiers service, is commonly hard fare, long and hard( or fast) marchings, wet, and could and thirst, and the like.  Sea. 
Sir, as to fare, you cannot want it there, if Prudent and Provident to provide on all opportunities. And as to long Marches they may be prevented, there being few or no places much Inland, that we shall fall upon, till wee are better acquainted then now we are.  Sol. 
Sir, but I have been informed, that most of the Spanish inhabited places are very strong to the Sea-ward, and therefore not safe to land Forces in the Front of them, but rather to land at a distance, and to march upon them, where they are weakest, and that it seems is Land-ward.  Sea. 
Sir, Under favour, you will find such Marches as you speak of, attended with some difficulties, by reason of the Country its being so woody, they may fall Trees in your way, and stop all your Passes, and after some dayes march may prevent your enterprise.  
What is the matter I pray you, can we not face Frontiers, and look in the mouths of Cannon as well abroad as at home: But grant wee do march, it is but observing times, and marching moderately; as also having a care that the Dust of the Gold get not into our Throats( by virtue of a conceit) and cause a greater thirst then our proportion of Water will satisfy. As to wet and could, they are strangers; could ever, wet for the greatest part; for which provision is made.  Sol. 
Sir, I perceive you are very much for this design, and truly you have so satisfied me, that I profess if I am thereunto called, I shall( in the strength of the Lord) with much freedom of spirit, and cheerfulness of mind proceed; not doubting but the presence of the Lord will bee with us for out good.  Sea. 
Sir, It is indeed very clear to me, upon very serious Consideration, that this design is of God, and for God, and he will appear in it. However this demur came, it is very unsafe to place self in the Van, when wee go about the work of the Lord, nor to trust in the Arm of Flesh: I should not wish any man to go in command on this design, except he is persuaded his call is from the Lord; it is good for every man to be persuaded in his own heart; much more might be said, but time will not permit.  Sol. 
Sir, I pray you give me leave to ask you but this one question, and so I shal desist from further detaining you at this time.  Sea. 
Sir, pray speak your mind, and I shall deal plainly and faithfully with you.  Sol. 
Would you be as free in your motion and action upon this design, as you are in expression, if called thereunto?  Sea. 
Certainly Sir I should, if my heart deceive me not above measure, I should be loathe to invite others to that I should be backward in myself: the demur that some suppose is an obstacle in the way, is rather encouragement to me, and will to you and others if you please but to weigh all things seriously.  Sol. 
Sir, I shall now return you thanks for your forwardness in answering my desires, and for that you have been pleased to give me some account of the Country, which doth very much satisfy me, so that I shall not onely deny to give credit to those, that would place Mountains in the place of Mole-hills; but shall freely adventure myself in this service if called to it( as is already said.)  Sea. 
Sir, what I have said as to the lawfulness of the design, is onely my own thoughts, and what is said as to the Country, is my own knowledge; it is delivered but abruptly and totally without any thing save plainness of speech, and reality of truth.  
If any part of it may tend to your satisfaction on( either in the one or the other) I shal much rejoice, and shall continually wish you and all other the real Souldiers and Servants of the Lord, all happiness in this life, and that to come.  Sol. 
Sir, I thank you, wishing the most high may both shape and steer your course for you, during your saying through this troublesone and tempestuous Ocean. And bring you to the Heaven of eternal rest, where our work will bee praising of God to all Eternity.  Sea. 
Sir, with many thanks for you sweet society and acceptance of my weak thought and expressions, I wish you everlasting happiness in the Lord,  
And so Sir, the Lord be with you.  Sol. 
Sir, the Lord keep you and give us another happy meeting.  Sea. 
I hearty with the same.  
VALE.  
FINIS.