THE SUBSTANCE Of a Conference at a COMMITTEE of both HOUSES, in the PAINTED CHAMBER, October 27. 1641.  
Managed by JOHN PIM Esquire, And OLIVER SAINT-IOHN His Majesty's Solicitor General, on the behalf, and by the Command of the House of COMMONS.  
Concerning the Excluding the thirteen BISHOPS, Impeached by the COMMONS of ENGLAND (for making and Execution of the New CANONS) from all VOTES in PARLIAMENT, and for the excluding of all the rest of the BISHOPS, from their VOTE in the Bill lately sent up to the LORDS to take away the Bishop's Votes in Parliament.  
Printed in the Year 1641.   

Master PIM spoke to this Effect following.  
THat Parliament the fountain of justice, aught to be preserved pure. From Corruption and be preserved free from partiality. Which will add not only Lustre, Reputation, and Honour, but Authority, to what is done in Parliament. All men's estates and liberties are preserved under the safe Custody of Parliament; This moveth us to be careful of any thing that may prejudice the Parliament. In point of Freedom, and Integrity.  
That therefore the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of the House of Commons had commanded him with his Colleague, to represent unto their Lordships Two Propositions, which they hold of very great Importance, and Necessity to be put in Execution at this time.  
First that those thirteen Bishops which stand accused before your Lordships for making the late Book of Canons, and putting them in Execution that they may be excluded from their Votes in Parliament.  
Secondly, That all the Bishops may be excluded from having any Vote in that Act. Come from the House of Commons, to your Lords. Lordships Entitled an Act to take away the Bishop's Vote in Parliament, etc.  
That, that which concerneth the thirteen Bishops, falleth to his charge to open; That he is commanded to tell their Lords ships that it standeth with Honour and with justice, that these Bishops standing thus charged with the breach of Trust, and of the Highest Trust, against the Prerogative of the King, against the Privilege of Parliament, against the property of the Subject, and against the peace of the Kingdom. These are the jewels that are deposed under the Trust and safeguard of Parliaments; And all these have been broken, and this appeareth by the making of the new Canons Voted by You● Lordships to be against all these Trusts.  
That these Persons have been parties to the breach of this Trust, that will appear by the journals of the Convocation, which is now in the Country, and may be sent for; The Entry of the Book is, that all the thirteen Bishops were Parties and did confirm and subscribe these Canons; Therefore it is hoped by these Canons, that these that have assumed to themselves a Legislative power whereby they have as much as in them lie rooted out the foundation of Parliament; That they should have no Interest in the Legislative power at all in Parliament.  
Next that those that have deprived the Subjects of those good Laws that are already made for them, that they should have no interest or part of making future Laws for the Subject. This they conceive standeth with a great deal of equity and justice, which is one reason to desire they should be excluded from their Votes in Parliament.  
Next is the heinousness of their offence, It is very fit they should be Innocent men, and faithful men, that should have the exercise of so great a thing (as that is) much less Delinquents, of so high a Nature, Actors in the subverting of the Laws of the Realm, that they should continue their Votes and places in Parliament. And that their delinquency may the better appear, desired 
Here the Votes were read by Mr. Good-Wyn.  to read the Votes passed in the House of Commons (nullo contradicente) and with which the LORDS have concurred and agreed.   

Then Mr. Solicitor spoke to this Effect following.  
THat he was in the next place to present some reasons 
Mr. Saint-Iohn.  and precedents concerning the Bishops not having their Votes in the Bill entitled, An Act to take away the Bishop's Votes in Parliament, etc.  
First, because they have no such Inherent right, and liberty of being there, as the Lords Temporal, and the Peers of the Realm have. For they are not there representative of any body else, not of the Clergy; If so, than the Clergy were twice represented by them, in the Lord's House and in the Convocation, for their Writ of Election is to send two Clerks Ad consentiendum, etc. Besides none are there representative of others, but those that have their suffrage from others. And therefore only the Clerks in the Convocation do represent them.  
Next, they have not the Inherent right of Peerage as the Lords have, because in some things they cannot do that there, which the Lords may do. In case of Treason and matter of blood, upon trial of any Peer, they have no Liberty of Vote, which could not be taken away by any Canon if their Right of Voting there were inherent; But this in the general.  
Next that they ought to be excluded from their Votes, If they were Representative of the Clergy as a third estate and degree, which is this; No Act of Parliament could be good if they did wholly dissassent, and yet they have disassented and the law good and in force, as in the Book of Common Prayer, in Queen Elizabeth's time they did dissassent from the confirming of that Law, which could not have been good if they had been a third estate and disassented.  
Next that the King may hold his Parliament without calling the Bishops at all to it which hath been adjudged by all the ●●●ges of England, 7. H. 8. occasioned by the Convocations, Citing of one Doctor Standish for speaking of words against their power and privilege as they conceived: All the judges of England in the presence of the King declared that the King might hold his Parliament without calling them at all, Therefore to desire their Votes to be excluded in this Bill.  
25. E. 1. In respect the Prelacy would not agree with the rest of the Kingdom in granting a reasonable and necessary aid and supply, they were excluded 35. E. 1. In the Parliament at Carlisle, for it will be brought to this, that when themselves were conconcerned, they were excluded their Votes; And before that Parliament an Act passed of several oppressions of the Abbots, Prior's and Bishop's, upon the inferior Clergy of the Kingdom, by purveyance and setting of high prizes, etc. to be Collected, and si●e or seven Acts more all to this purpose; Concerning the carriage of the Prelates to the Inferior Clergy, this Act was long in debate but in 25. E. 1. at Carlisle it was thus. That the King Habito tractatu, etc. with the Earls, the Barons, and other the Nobles, etc. have agreed to this Act of Parliament: Now the Bishops did not consent to this; For if they had, they should have been named before the Earls and Barons: For the degree of Nobility in all ancient Records, is Prelates, Earls, and Barons.  
The next Record was in Ed. 1. time something in Treaty concerning the Cardinal and the Clergy, and those Acts are expressed to be with the consent of the Earls, and Barons and others of the Laity, and that doth exclude them.  
Here the three Records themselves were read, which three Records do all concern the Clergy, partly for provision of live and other expenses, to Rome and beyond the Seas, and to all these three Acts the assent is in these words: By the Earls, Barons, and other Lay people; And in the several Orders and degrees of naming them they are omitted, being always in the first order, for if th●y had Voted, than the Rule should have been entered that it was agreed by the Prelates, Earls and Barons.  
30. R. 2. Ca There being provision the Pope should not make presentation and that other men should not present alone to their own live, than the Petition of the Commons was assented to by the King and the Lords Temporal.  
Then afterwards 7. R. 2. a printed case there the same question comes again concerning the Clergy. And it is recited, It was assented unto by the King and Lay-Lords.   
FINIS.