A DISCOURSE OF DISPUTATIONS Chief concerning matters of Religion, with Animadversions on two printed Books, (mentioned in the Contents following next after the Epistles:) The latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for Censure and Advice) being seriously perused; The Author of it, JOHN ONLEY, is thereupon convinced of Error, Slander, and of arrogant, uncivil, and unchristian miscarriage, not only towards him, but all the Reformed Churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity.  
By John Ley, Rector of the Church of Solyhull in Warwicksh.  1 King. 18.36. 
Answer him not.  Dial. inter Aug. & Hieron. Tom. 4. oper. Hieron. p. 397. 
Non de Adversario victoriam, sed de mendacio quaerimus veritatem.  
WHERETO IS ADDED A Consolatory Letter to Dr. Bryan, etc. upon the death of his worthily wellbeloved and much bewailed Son Mr. NATHANIEL BRYAN: Which immediately followeth after the Discourse of Disputations.  
LONDON, Printed for Nath: Webb and Will: Grantham, at the black Bear in St. Paul's Churchyard, over against the little North door, MDCLVIII.   

To the WORSHIPFUL My much Honoured Friend, RIGHARD HOPKINS, Esq; STEWARD of the City of COVENTRY.  
SIR,  
IN the publication of these papers, I could not but conceive you had some interest, as a friend to the cause and person most meddled within them; nor to him only, but to all the 
(a) Dr. Briaes'. Dr. Grow. Mr. Bassinet.  three religious and learned Ministers of your City, wherein (methinks) you much resemble Geneva for number and quality, when it enjoyed an holy Triumvirate of Farellus, Viret, & Calvin, in that order Beza nameth them in the life of Calvin, and giveth them their several characters, so as of all three to make up one 
(b) Saepe mihi in ment●m veni● p●rfectum quodammedo videri posse pastorem qui ex tribusillis esset conflatus. Beza in vitam Calvin. p. 8.  perfect Pastor. I shall do those renowned reformers no wrong, if I say of your Preachers, that each of them is complete in himself without his partners: Such hath been the proficience of the Pulpit (both by preaching and praying) since their times, and more in England then elsewhere; as divers Travellers (who have had opportunity to know, and ability to judge; and many foreign Divines, who understanding our language, have read our printed Sermons, and compared them together with those of other Nations) have censured. I testify this truth the rather, because, though there be some difference in judgement, (blessed be God it is not great) yet there is no dissenting in affection among them. Religious duties are unanimously performed: Christian society and Ministerial brotherhood sweetly maintained, and all offices suitable to such relations, mutually and affectionately exchanged: to whose concord and communion, I shall make bold to apply His Highness Eulogium of the Army in his Narrative from Bristol, Sept. 14. 1645. in 
(c) Engl. Recovery. part. 2. p. 118.  these words; Presbyterians, Independents, all have here the same Spirit of Faith and Prayer, the same presence and answer, they agree here, and have no names of difference: Pity it is it should be otherwise any where.  
Now as I have matched your City with Geneva for your Ministers, so I wish your City-Magistrates may match theirs in vigilancy, vigour, and good effects of Government, who (as Bodin, a famous French Papist, maketh the report of them) 
(d) Ridiculum est ad legem esse bonos; allam censuram quâ nil magis ac divinius cogitari potuit ad coercendas hominum cupiditates latenter primùm, & amicè, quam sequitur animadversio magistratuum. Jo. Bod. Method. Hist. c. 6. p. 245. Ita fit ut quae legibus nusquam, etc. igitur nullae meretrices, nullae ebrietates, nullae saltationes, nulli menaici, null otiosi in ea civitate reperiuntur. Ibid.  holding it a ridiculous thing, to be good only by good Laws, follow Consistorian Censures against the Contumacious, with civil Animadversion of the Magistrates. Hence it cometh to pass that those vices which no where else, are there restrained, so that there is no whoredom, no drunkenness, no dancing, no beggars, no idle persons to be found in that City.  
My hopes come up the higher toward my wishes hereof, because you do not only encourage your able, watchful, and painful Pastors many ways especially, as the Apostle admonisheth, Heb. 13.17. by your Christian compliance with their holy Ministeries, (seconded by their exemplary practice) but you do the like to your learned, pious, and industrious Schoolmaster, 
(e) Mr. Samuel Frankland.  also with the ingenuous and hopeful youths under his institution. This you manifested in a very eminent manner, when the last year Mr. Major, with yourself, the Aldermen, and many other subordinate Citizens, came in a venerable equipage to the Free-School, to grace their exercises with your presence and audience: & though I cannot say with intelligence, of all or most, because a good part of it was Greek, (a strange Tongue even to the Roman Priests, and that by 
g Graecum est non potest legi.  (Proverb) yet some did understand it; more the Latin: and the pleasantness of their voices, the gracefulness of their elocution and action, the fidelity of their memories, presented a grateful experiment to such as were skilled in neither of them, and exercised no faculty superior to sense and fancy. 
h It is under consultation I hear hereafter to give some respective entertainment to such in their Native Language.  But that which the wiser sort of Spectators and Auditors of all ranks (I conceive) chief intended, was, to profess themselves opponents to the late illiterate Sects, who cry down Schools and Universities, and would have our Ministers no more learned than the Italian Friars of the order of S. Ignorance, who (as Luther writeth of them) were forced to solemn oaths that they would neither know, learn, or understand any thing at all, but should answer all questions with nescio Now if you had confined your beneficence to the Ministers and other professors of learning within your own City-walls; I should have held myself the less obliged to this public acknowledgement: but, Sir, 
i Luther, Colloquia mensalia, or Divine discourse at his Table. c. 40. p. 415.  it is too extensive in this kind to be either personally or locally limited. So that if the Arminians had not rendered the expression suspected of heresy, I would call it Universal Grace, or Catholic charity. (to our whole reformed Tribe, and to all ingenuous Students their allies) if the Papists had not soiled that word with a savour of their Ubiquitary error. I have this confidence by intelligence from such as (upon experience) own you as a Patron of their just causes, in taking timely cognizance of them, and giving your efficacious countenance unto them: and to myself, you have been pleased, (though yet I have had none opportunity to be any way serviceable to you) to anticipate my desires, in the offer of your favour. For all which (in my brethren's name, and mine own) I profess myself,  
Sir, Your sincerely devoted servant, JOHN LEY.   

ERRATA.  
IN the Epistle to Samuel Ebrall, Esq; in the second Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. deal two. r. Parenthesis. p. 2. l. 18. r. your. p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation. P. 4. in marg. r. arrogantia. p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg. r. 26. r. Roscius. l. 29. r. discovered. p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp. l. 18. r. Butler. p. 7. l. 1. r. catholics. p. 8. l. 19 r. may. p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice. p. 15. marg. r. quod. p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges. p. 19 l. 25. r. 1. of God. p. 21. l. 24. of man. p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa. l. 29. r. all night. p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg. r. deletum. p. 28. l. 2. r. dissentire. l. 8. add for. p. 29. in marg. r. Possed. p. 34. l. 6. r. to. l. 22. r. things. in marg. r. ab. p. 35. l. 26. r. Expositors. p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus. p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius. p. 44. l. 5. add day. p. 46. l. 33. add these. l. 34. add Campian. l. 35. add, the Conference. p. 47. l. 15. add, it. p. 48 Chap. V Contents of the Chap. add with the causes of them. l. 22. r. was. p. 49. l. 1. r. two. p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. add, it. l. 36. add, as. l. 38. add forenoted. l. 39 r. some. add, a doubt. d. 54. l. 8. deal is. p. 55. l. 15. deal in another Chapter. p. 58. l. 10. add, as a feigned. l. 34. add, to doubtful debate. p. 62. l. 17. deal for. l. 33. deal for Costerus. p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19 r. Costerus. p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty. l. 16. add In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges. l. 26. add them. p. 95. l. 21. add, a man to sleep. p. 97. l. 8. r. helpless. p. 100 over against. l. 6. r. in marg. So in the Disputation at Kenelnsworth published by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like.   

To the WORSHIPFUL my very worthy Friend, Samuel Ebrall Esq;  
Sir,  
YOu were an hearer (as I have heard) of the Disputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian, and John Only, but (as he hath set it forth in print) it would be more suitable to say Dr. John Only, and John Brian; so far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himself, without due respect to the modesty of a Christian, the ingenuity of a Scholar, and the discretion of an ordinary rational man; and so much hath he vilified the Doctor (in another book published by him since) whom all men (who know him, and are of any note for Learning and Religion,) highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both: and for his excellent faculty, and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechising, there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. Only his match among the Antipaedobaptists, (as he calleth his Assistants at the disputation at Kill.) for insolence of Spirit, supercilious contempt of such as are not taken with his Tenets. Some I am sure there are who though they have too much affinity with some of his fancies and opinions, show much mansuetude and civility to those that steer their Ministerial and Christian course by other principles; yea and they hold religious communion with them in public ordinances not distinctive. But Mr. Only, as he hath a name of singularity, so he is the fit to be the ringleader of some notorious Schism; like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage, to whom, if a denomination had been given him (out of a time of faction) according to his learning and manners, it must have been, not Primianus, but Ultimianus. This with my discourse of Disputations in matter of Religion, mine animadversions on the printed Disputation hold at Kill. and on Mr. D. his second book, and my desired advice to Dr. Brian, (concerning it) whether to answer him or no; I have presented to public view, with a particular address unto yourself; that of a true and intelligent witness, you may become an equal and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. super tota materia as now it is drawn out in his second book: and I was glad of this occasion to testify how much contentment I take in the situation of my Residence, as in vicinity to yours, whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood, your friendly visits, and many other affectionate offices; whereto there shall be no want of any answerable returns which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers, and best observance of  
Your faithful friend. and humble servant JOHN LEY,   

For the very Reverend his highly honoured Friend, Mr. john Ley, Pastor of Solyhull.  
Reverend Sir,  
YOur Consolatory Letters I cannot sufficiently bless God and You for, and therefore do again return my most humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expressed, withal earnestly craving leave to make them public; the doing whereof, will (I am assured) redound much to the glory of God, erecting many souls dejected for the like loss, and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord.  
Sir, there is another trouble fallen upon my spirit, wherewith I take the boldness to acquaint you; occasioned by an Examination of some of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagonist John Onley, which hath been abroad (as I hear) a long time, but lately came to my notice by a Minister 20. miles distant. I find the Book so full of bitterness and arrogancy, that I question whether it be better to let the man alone, or to answer him according to his folly: I have sent it to you, requesting your perusal thereof, and your advice what I shall do (with all convenient speed) which shall lay a further Obligation upon.  
Sir, your Fellow-labourer in the work of the Lord, and bounden servant, JOHN BRIAN.  
To which Letter of Dr. Brian, a short and summary answer is returned in the next leaf; a full one in the whole discourse following.   

A Table of the Contents of each Chapter.  
CHAP. I. 
HOw some have been, and are averse from, or adverse to disputations in Religion, how far, and for what reasons. pag. 3.  CHAP. II. 
Of a contrary disposition in some too much addicted to disputation, in being too forward to make, or accept of offers of dispute, and multiplying of needless and presumptuous questions and resolutions in matters of Religion. p. 12.  CHAP. III. 
That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and Reason, and not only lawful, but sometimes also expedient and profitable. p. 17.  CHAP. IU. 
An Historical collection of Disputations of several sorts, principally concerning differences in matters of Religion, in two Sections; the 1. Containing examples from the Apostles to Luther. 2. Of examples from Luther to the present age. p. 31.  CHAP. V. 
Of the various issues and successes of Conferences, Colloquies and Disputations about matters of Religion. p. 48.  CHAP. VI 
How Disputations are to be ordered, that the truth may be cleared; and being cleared, both it and they who plead for it may be secured from reproachful misreports. p. 57  CHAP. VII. 
Of the Disputation at Kenelmworth, betwixt John Brian Dr. in Divinity, Minister at Coventry, and John Onley, Pastor of a Church at Lawford (as he calls himself.) How it was occasioned, undertaken, and continued at divers monthly meetings there. p. 73  CHAP. VIII. 
Of the printing of the disputation. By whose motion it was made. By whom, and how managed. p. 76.  CHAP. IX. 
Of Mr. John Onley his quality and condition, his wit and utterance, his ignorance and arrogancy, his reproachful speaking of such as are not of his Sect, and partiality to himself and them; his carping at the Magistrates for meddling with matters of Religion, and countenancing of Ministers. p. 80.  CHAP. X. 
A Conclusive Answer to Doctor Brian's desire of Advice, whether it be better to let Mr. O. alone, or to answer him according to his folly; sent him a good while ago by his Son, but now published with enlargement for sasisfaction of others as well as of the Doctor himself. Reasons many and weighty for the Negative. p. 102.    

A DISCOURSE Of DISPUTATIONS Concerning matters of Religion.  
Reverend Sir,  
THough you would not use the liberty I gave you for correction of the long consolatory discourse I sent you, 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Saph. Carm. p. 58. Edit. Henr. Steph; in 12. Cum Pindaro & aliis Lyricis Poetis Graecis.  which (I am glad to perceive by your respective return) was as well taken by you, as intended by me: Yet have I made so bold with your short gratulatory Letter, as to expunge the two Parenthesis of the two first lines, as coming too near the poetical hyperbole, used in the praise of the Poems of Sapph, wherein though your error of brotherly love might be excused, my error of self-love would not be pardoned, if I should be so vain as to own your Encomium as due to any dictate of mine; all I can justly claim being no more than a witness to my good will, and endeavour to do well. Waving then that part of the reasons of your request for publication of it in print, I am content upon the account of the rest which you have rendered, to give it up to your disposal, in hope of the good effects which (as you presage) it may produce. And for the second part of your Letter, wherein you make just complaint of Mr. John Only his injurious dealing with you, and desire mine advice, Whether it were better to let the man alone, or to answer a fool according to his folly; you shall have mine answer with my reasons, but first I must tell you that I no sooner put pen to paper for that purpose, but I found myself by what I have read and observed of the disputations of the precedent and present age, both minded of, and moved to an Enlargement of my labour, beyond the limits of your request and expectation: So far as while I pay a debt of love to you, to make others indebted unto me (by your occasion, and for your sake) by delivering somewhat of importance, and (I hope) also capable of their acceptance, which haply would not have come to their notice by another hand; and this the rather, because I do not think Mr. O. worthy of so much of my notice and respect, as of purpose to appear in public against him, or any man of his temper and condition: It will be enough for him to be brought in as an occasion or an appendix to that which is of more moment. I shall then thus divide my discourse; treating  
1. Of Disputations in general concerning matters of Religion.  
2. Of our Disputation with Mr. J. O. in particular, as by him it is published, and his examination of some of your Arguments, set forth in print, to set forth himself as a Triumphant Antagonist (for his Sect,) not only over you, but over all the reformed Churches throughout the world. Of whom when I come to that part, I shall give you my sense and apprehension as he deserveth; and mine advice touching an answer to him as you desire, and I conceive to be most convenient.  
First for the General, I shall reduce it to, and comprehend the whole in the first six ensuing Chapters, as their contents are set down in the foregoing Table.  

CHAP. I. How some have been and are averse from, or adverse to disputations in Religion: how fare and for what reasons.  
SOme are not altogether against disputations in Religion, but are jealous over them with a godly jealousy, as Paul was over his Corinthians, 2 Cor. 11.2. lest they should be inconsiderately undertaken, or indiscreetly managed, and so as 
b Isti dum nimium scalpunt veritatem amittunt (ut acutusille mimi versiculus;) nimium altercando veritas amittitur. Ludovic. Vives de causis corruptar. artium. l. 3. p 127.  Ludovicus Vives saith; The truth by too much scratching and alteration should be lost; lest error by artificial arguments and ornaments should have such a glorious flourish and varnish set upon it, as to make it to be taken for the truth: which is not unlike to fall out; for some 
c Interdum orichalcum magis exprimit colorem auri quam aurum ipsum. Ibid.  Copper (saith he,) hath a more glorious Lustre than some true gold. And nothing, as 
d Nihil est tam incredibile quod non dicendo fiat probabile; nihil tam horridum, tam incultum, quod non splendescat oration●. Cicer. paradox, Prooem. p. 436. Num. 3.  Cicero observeth in the prooeme of his Paradoxes, is so incredible, but by elequence it may be made to appear probable. Nothing is so horrid, but by a garnish of words it may be made to shine. This imposture is easily put upon the vulgar; for 
e Nihil tam facile quàm vilem plebeculam linguae volubilitate decipere, quae quicquid non intelligit plus admiratur. Hierom. ad Nepor. de vita Cler. Tom. 1. p. 14.  it is very easy with volubility of tongue to deoeive the simple common people, who What they do not perceive with understanding, they receive with admiration; nor can they 
f Garrulitatem authoritatem putant. Idem. Epist. Ocean. vol. 2. p. 324.  put a due difference betwixt garrulity and authority: And they are commonly more affected with what they say who gainsay solid and long believed verity under pretence of new discoveries of truth; and error then with what hath warrant from the word of God, and consent of all the Christian Churches of the world, both of ancient or of later times: and the fallacy takes with them the more tenderly, because these Novel Dogmatists make a fair profession of mortification and self-denial, refusing those advantages and accommodations of a comfortable living, which their opposites do enjoy; and bear themselves boldly against authority, as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Disciples of the Pharisees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour, Mat. 22.16. Master we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God truth; neither carest thou for any man, for thou regardest not the persons of man. And therefore they set up what Religion they plea●e, making their conventicles when and what they please, and in them speaking of God and man what they please, that which is fit to be whispered in the dark or rather buried in eternal silence, then as Divine dictates, as our Saviour would have them, published on the housetop, Luk. 12.3. yet that their more private carriage of their profession in Chimnie-houses, where there is ever more smoke than light, may not be interpreted to their prejudice, as if they had not conscience and confidence to own their tenets in public; they have presumed many times, even the weaker sex hath so much strength of fancy and will, as to offer to set up their new lights in our steeple-houses, and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits, as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Gospel: and herein many of the shallower fort do so applaud themselves, that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges, 
g Factus est populus spectator, arbiter, Index. Ludovic. Vives. de causis corrupt. artium. l. 1. p. 38.  as some judicious writers have observed, then to any others; & 
h Ind arrogantia, quod aliquod sibi viderentur quia stulto judici videbantur. Idem l. 3. p. 327.  they arrogantly applaud themselves in their approbation. But that which maketh the wiser sort more unwilling to give too much way to religious disputations, or rather to disputations of Religion (especially in public) is the subtlety of some of unsound principles & the simplicity of others of a better belief; who suspecting no deceit, & confiding in the strength of truth, are easily entangled with engagements to dispute to the greatest disadvantage of their cause, not forethinking how their adversaries may be furnished for assault; and what liberty of misreport they will take, either to make show of victory, or to shadow a foil; this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehension: But there are some stratagematicall depths, and policies of those who are Masters in the Mysteries of iniquity, both of the old and new Antichristian faction, which I confess my shallowness had not imagined, had I not been informed of them by a double testimony of good account and credit; the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman, a great Traveller, when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford, which though above 4 years ago I very well remember it was thus. The Protestants of Luther's and calvin's profession have had many disputes and conferences in several places, which 
i The Protestants have had above 100 meetings, conferences, disputations, counsels and Synods, from their first disputation held at Lypsia upon the year 1519 to their synod in Vilna, 590. So Parson's Preface to the 10. disputations recounted by John Fox, v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from. Stanislaus Rescaus his observations, and means, though he do not particularly quote his Book, which he calleth Ministromachiam, in qua Evangelicorum Magistrorum & Ministro●●● de evangelicis magistris & ministris mutua judicia Testimonia etc. recensentur. E●●us. Coleniae. apud Henric. Falken. birg. 1522.  Parsons numbers to above a 100 betwixt them; at one of their meetings, which brought them near a conclusion of accord, there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Minister, which desired to be heard, and he was admitted to speak; and he so set up soothed and animated the Lutherans, to stand out against all compliance with the Calvinists, and so exasperated the Calvinists with reproach, that they went away worse minded towards each other, than they were when at first they met together. The other cunning device was, of some of our English Sectaries about the year 1647. And that was a plot upon a dispute managed in this manner; some of them had provoked a Minister (learned enough for his time, but too young to match them in subtlety either of caution or of contrivance) to a public dispute, which he accepted of: and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and years, yet he rather lost then gained reputation to his cause or person, because one of their side pretending himself till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs, at the close of the dispute, openly professed his conviction and conversion to their party by the satisfaction he had received at that disputation; whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zealot to that cause and party in former times, which (together with the other particulars fore mentioned) induced me to propose unto my Brethren of the Ministry of Cheshire, when they met to subscribe their attestation to the Ministers of London, Jun. 1648. (the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me) that no Minister might make or take up a challenge for a set disputation upon any point of Religion, without consultation and consent of his Brethren, who should judge  
1. Whether it should be disputed on or no; if so  
2. How the disputation should be ordered, that the truth, and those who are advocates for it, may be clear and secured from circumvention and slander. The like (upon an especial occasion) I moved to my fellow. Ministers at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickshire, and in both (viz. that in Cheshire, and this in Warwickshire,) as many as met together (who were a considerable number) signified their consent, by subscription to what I proposed, in these words:  
july the 7th. 1656.  
At the meeting of the Ministers at Kenelmworth resolved and agreed upon; That no Minister of this Association, either offer or undertake any public Disputation concerning any point of Religion, but in such a manner, and order, and time, as shall be concluded of by the consent of the brethren of the Society.  


john Bryan.  
Obadiah Grew.  
john Ley.  
Daniel Eyres.  
john Trat.  
Thomas Hall.  
Thomas Dugard.  
Anthony Woodhall.  
Alexander Bean.  
Henry Buller.  
Luke Milbourn.  
Samuel Hawes.  
Thomas Evance.    
Besides these religious considerations which most concern Ministers to look unto, there is another, which upon a Civil account belongs most to the Magistrate, viz. the preservation of the public peace, much endangered by a numerous concourse of people of adverse principles, for debate of their differences. From which will hardly be separated that pest of concord, as 
r Concordiae pestis vincendi pertinax libido. Erasm. Epist. praefix. operibus. Hilar. p. 5.  (Erasmus calleth it,) a pertinacious desire to conquer the adversary; which may be like to break out into opprobrious words, and from such words it may be to blows and bloodshed. Therefore S. Paul clearing of himself from Tertullus his accusation, of moving sedition among all the jews throughout the world, Act ●q 5. he saith v. 12. that his accusers neither found him in the Temple disputing with any man, nor raising up the people, neither in the Synagogues, nor in the City; implying that disputation did dispose men to popular disturbance; and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other, the Catholic meeting in a less number than the Donatists, (for a public dispute) made this advantage of the difference, viz. That if any tumults should arise the disorder could not in reason be imputed unto them who were fewer, but to their adversaries that in number exceeded them. 
Pauciores catholici q●●m Donatisl●e ●e si tumultus esset minori numero non impataretur August. Operts breviculi collat. Praefat. Tom. 7. part. 1. p. 686.  Though sometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one side, then of a multitude of sober minded Citizens on the other; whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry, when those who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K●ff●ns contestation, against you and your brother Dr. Grew, behaved themselves so rudely, that the Committee residing there thought it necessary to forbid your dispu●tes, and the City-Magistrates denied the use of their Town-Hall for that purpose, though they had promised it before their coming, when there appeared no such peril of breach of the public Peace, as after their coming they soon perceived. How it came to pass, that (notwithstanding the declared unwillingness of the Committee and Magistrates of the City against the public dispute,) you fitted them with a public place and polemical entertainment, who came so far out of their way, as from London to Coventry to quarrel with you, I shall show in a more convenient place: And (to go on with observations of like sort) I very well remember that in London (when Sir, john Gayor was Lord Major) there was a disputation betwixt Mr. William jenkin's then Preacher at Christ-Church, and Mr. Benjamin Cox, in Mr. I. his house, at which I was present, being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that dispute, there was another resolved on betwixt Mr. james Cranford, and the same Mr. Cox, and that within a few days after; but before the time concluded on I had occasion to bring his Lordship a lift of such Ministers as I thought fit to be Preachers at Paul's, as he had requested me to do; and then I telling him (the discourse we had inducing me to it) the dispute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox, and that I was present at it, and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after; he replied, that he would have suffered neither of them, if he had had timely advertisement of them both; but since the one was past and could not be recalled, he would send his warrant to prevent the other; and that it might be certainly and speedily done, he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it: which I did, whereupon the parties served with it desisted from their purpose. There was another disputation more publicly bespoken, and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two, Cou. Antagonist, and Mr. Calumy, at his Church in Alderman-bury; but such animosities of Spirit, and symptoms of tumult began to stir, and to gather near the time and place of the public meeting, that there was great cause to fear, that how ever it fared with the truth, the common peace would be much endangered, if that concourse were not hindered; and therefore by the civil Magistrates it was forbidden, and as in duty it was requisite, accordingly forborn.  
And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magistrates, though their proper office serve principally for the preservation of peace among the common people, but some of them have the less liking of disputes in Religion, because they fear it must be profaned by polemical contestations of such as are 
l Hoc morbi fere innatum est hominum ingeiiss, ut cedere nesciant. Erasm. ubi suprà  too stout to stoop to the truth, and so 
m Est hoc pertinaciae plerisque mortalium ingeniis insitumut, quod semel quocunque casu pronunciaverint, nunquam ●u●●… desinant, etiamsi compererint perperä pronunciasse. Ibid. p. ult.  pertinacious in their opinions, as not to recede from what they have pronounced, nay though they see their error, and that they have pronounced amiss: and this Erasmus observeth as a disease and infirmity naturally incident to most men. And as the Magistrates are public persons, if withal they be religious, they cannot think it fit the common interest in sacred and Catholic truths of doctrine and practice, should be permitted to private persons to toss to and fro, (as a Ball betwixt two Rackets) in wrangling altercation. This moved the Emperor Marcianus, in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon, 
n Ne cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere. Baron. Annal an. 452. num. 1. Tom. p. 187.  to decree that none should publicly dispute of matters of Faith; 
o Clericus fuerit qui, etc. consortio clericorum mov●a●ur; fi militia praectnctus sit, cingulo spoliabitur; caeteri sanct issima urbe pellantur. Baron. Ibid. num. 4. col. 688.  and he laid a penalty on such as presumed to act contrary to what he had decreed: as for Clerks, to be put out of the number of the Clergy; for a Soldier, that his helt and sword shall be taken from him; for Citizens, to be expelled the City; and for others, their contumacy was to be 
p Competentibus suppliciis subjugandi. Ibid.  subdurd with other competent purishments.  
There are two great opposites to each other, too opposite to all disputations of Religion, the Turk and the Pope; who though their Pride make them ambitious of the highest place, the head, their wickedness makes them worthy of the lowest, the tail, Deut. 28.44.  
1. First for the Turk, Mahomet, (that famous impostor and false Prophet, the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans) not only forbids all disputes about the Religion of his Bible, (rather Babel) the Alcoran, but instructs his deluded disciples how to answer them who are disposed to dispute: 
q Tecum disputare volentibus dic, Deum so●●… omnes tuo; actus agnoscere, qui die postremo lites omnes & contrarietates discutiet. Alcaroni. c. 32.  Say unto them, (saith he) God alone knows all thy acts, and at the last day will discuss all controversies and contrarieties. Again, 
r Homines incredulos taliter alloquere; ego quidem legem vestram minime sequor, nec vos meam; igitur mihi mea maneat, vobisque vestra. Ibid. c. 109.  to incredulous men say thus, I follow not your Law nor you mine; therefore let me alone with that which is mine, and I will let you alone with yours.  
2. For the 
s Nobis nullum fas est inire certamen cum hominibus communionis alienae; divina scriptura praedicante homine haereticum post primam & secundam correptionem de vita. Tom. 3. Concil. p. 625. Col. 2. edit. Bin. 1636.  Pope Gelasius decreed against disputation with those who are of another Communion; for which he pretends the authority of the Apostle Paul, A man that is an Heretic after the first and second admonition reject. Titus 3. v. 10. 
t Quaeritur anliceat clericis de fide Catholica disputare publicè. Neg. Azor. Instir. Moral. l 8. c. 26. 1 part. p. 569.  Azorius the Jesuit in his moral institutions putteth this question, whether it be lawful for Clerks to dispute publicly of the Catholic Faith? And he answereth negatively, and quotes for it A decree of the Trinity and Catholic Faith: and for lay persons the Pope's prohibition is express and peremptory, 
u Inhibemus ne cuiquam Laitae personae liceat de fide Catholica dispatare. Sext. decretal. l. 5. Tit. 2. de Haereticis.  we inhibit (as unlawful for) any layman publicly to dispute of the Catholic Faith. And if there be 
w Azorius Ibid. p. 571. Col. 1.  any disputes of matters of Faith, betwixt Catholics and Heretics published in any Mother-Tongue, they are forbidden in their Index of prohibited books.  
Qu. But did not Bellarmine read his controversies or disputations of the difference between the Popish and Protestant Religion, at Rome? and (amongst other questions) did he not discuss the capital questions, of the Pope's supremacy and in-infallibility, as well as others of inferior titles?  
Ans. He did so, and because he stood up as a Champion, for the Antichristian Creed and Church, he was allowed to do so, especially there where his hearers were wilfully fortified against the true faith: But so little is any disputation liked by those who are most Popish, that as a very wife and observant Traveller informeth us, (in his judicious Book called Europae speculum, or a view or survey of the state of Religion in the Western parts of the world;) that he 
x Sir Edw. Sand. Europae. speculum, p. 121, 122.  sought for the controversies of Card. Bellarm. in verity in all places; but neither that, nor Gregory de Valentia, nor other Popish Schoolmen, nor any of that quality could be ever in any shop of Italy set eye upon: which made me (saith he) entertain this suspicious conjecture, that no part of the Protestants positions and allegations should be known; they were so exact as to make discurrent (in some sort) even those very books which were constrained to cite them, that they might refute them; in such wise as not to suffer them to be commonly saleable, but only to such, and in such places as the Superiors should think meet. And it is not an improbable opinion of some, that Bellarmine's dispatations are the less pleasing to the Pope and his dearest favourites, because he citeth our Authors too fully, and setteth on their arguments further than his answers reach to take them off. And for the point in hand, disputation is the most cried down in Italy, the Pope's Country, above other places: for as the same prudent Author observeth 
y Ibid. p. 117.  as in the foundation of the reformation (which is the Scripture) so much more in the edifice itself, the Doctrines and Opinions of the reformed Churches, they bear away all sound and Echo of them, being not lawful there to allege them, no not to glance at them, not to argue nor dispute of them, no not to refute them: he goeth on; In ordinary communication (saith he) to talk of matters of religion is odious and suspicious; but to enter into any reasoning, (though but for argument sake, without any other scandal) is prohibited and dangerous: yea it was once my fortune (saith he) to be half threatened for none other fault then for debating with a Jew, and upholding the truth of Christianity against him; so unlawful there are all disputes of Religion whatsoever, etc. 
Ibid.  I believe him there in the rather, because 
z Azor. Institut. part. 1. l. 8. c. 26. p 571. col. 2.  Azorius confesseth, they are so jealous of all disputations, as that they will not allow of a confutation of the Alcora n in any Mother-Tongue: Not that they care either for the Jewish or Turkish Religion, but that if they must be so much secured from common contradiction, much more must that which they call Roman Catholic, especially for those points which concern his Holiness indisputable and all disputative privileges, to whom Papal Parasites appropriate that of the Apostle, 1 Cor. 2.14. The spiritual man judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man: But, the cause common to them both (why the Turkish and Popish Religion are so tender over their Tet●ets, that they may not be touched by dispute) is, for that they are like the apples of Sodom, which how fair soever they seem to the eye, if they be handled they fall unto ashes and smoke, 
a Joseph. of the wars of the Jews, l. 5. c. 5. fine capitis.  as Josephus recordeth, because they have no solidity of truth that can endure the trial.  
Having showed in the precedent discourse how averse many have been from disputations in Religion; why and how far and how adverse the Mahometans and Papists are unto them; I will add but one observation more under this Title of Disputations in Religion concerning the Pope and his party of this generation, who (besides the reason wherein by their dislike of them, they agree with the Turks (which is a part of their Turco papismus, as Dr. Sutlive hath entitled a book against them) are vehemently bend against them (where their power is most predominant) out of pride and disdain of all Religions but their own, especially of the Protestants, because they have done them the most dishonour and damage; and because by the domineering decrees of the Council of Trent, and by the Tyrannical authority of the Inquisition, they are better able to oppose them, then by Disputations and Arguments from Scripture or reasons; and for this reason among others is the Popish 
“ Pope Paul the fourth said it was the principal secret and Mystery of the papacy. Hist. of the Council of Trent lib. 4. p. 405. and the true Ram to bear down heresy and defend the Apostolic Sea. Ibid. p. 409.  rather then 
“ The very name of the Inquisition is terrible all Christendom over, and the King of Spain with his Grandees tremble at it. Howels famil. Letters. Vol. 1. Let. 44 p. 236.  Spanish inquisition, though set up principally against the jews and Moors, carried on so cunningly and cruelly against the Protestants, that the Bishops and other of the Popish Clergy might not be put to too much pains in arguing with them; as it was said by some who wrote against the English Bishops, for pressing ceremonial conformity with too much rigour; 
b So in the beginning of a Dialogue betwixt Diotrephes a Bishop, Tertullus a Papist, Pandocheus an Innkeeper, and Paul a Preacher of the word of God.  that the clink and the Gatehouse (too common Gaoles) were the strongest Arguments they had to maintain their cause; but they were as houses with paper walls in comparison of the Prisons of the Popeholy inquisition, as, the 
c See the Spanish History l. 28. p. 1031, and à p. 1119. à. 1123. and 1134, 1135.  Spanish History, besides other writers, have reported it.   

CHAP. II. Of a contrary disposition in some too much addicted to disputation; in being too forward to make or accept of offers of dispute, and multiplying of needless and presumptuous questions and resolutions in matters of Religion.  
IN the precedent chapter we have showed how averse from, or adverse to disputations in matters of Religion, some have been, how far, and for what reasons: There are others (of another mind) so divers from them, or contrary to them, that their difference maketh a juster ground of dispute then divers others which are drawn out into many and long debates. There have been and are some men (to pretermit with contempt that daring Bedlamite 
“ Theaura John taking upon him to be high Priest of the Jews, set up a challenge to both the Universities of Oxford & Cambr. and proclaimed it with a threefold O yes to answer his printed Dotages in Pauls-Church. April. 5. 1652.  Theaura john) who having an high opinion of their own good parts for knowledge and utterance, think their eminence cannot be sufficiently known, nor they enough admired and honoured without public oftension, I might say ostentation, of it in a polemical concertation. This was the humour of 
d Leontinus Gorgius primus ausus est in conventu poscere quaestionem, id est, jubere dacere quadere quis velit audere; audax negotium dicerem & impudent, nisi, etc. Cicer. de finibus bonor. & malor. l. 2. princip. libri.  Gorgius Leontinus, of whom the Roman orator noteth, that he was the first that took upon him to demand a question, that is, to ask the people what question they desired to be disputed, and they should presently hear him dispute and discourse of it. A bold business, saith the orator, I would say an impudent too, but our later Philosophers have taken example by him for the like undertaking. And if not by imitation of heathen Philosophers, yet by natural corruption have divers Christian professors been puffed up to the like degree of vain glory; being proud of those preeminences for which by the Apostles admonition and caution they should have been rather humble and thankful: for he would have none to be puffed up against another for any abilities they have and others have not, 1. Cor. 4.6. and he pathetically expostulateth with such as think too well of themselves, and disdain others: who maketh thee to differ from another (saith he,) and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it? v. 7. that is, as if it were thine own of thyself, without being beholding to another, especially to God, who might have made him whom thou contemnest glorious, and thee contemptible. It is probable that john Picus Earl of Marandula (so much admired for wit and learning, as that he is styled, 
e Theologorum & philosopho●●… sine controversia principis sic in titularipag. operum cudit. Basil. quam Sebast cam. Henric Petriann. 1519.  without controversy, the Prince of Divines and Philosophers) might be lifted up with appreheasion of his own excellent endowments, and the applause of men when he put forth a kind of challenge to the Christian world, to dispute 
f Nengentas de divinis & naturalibus quaestiones proposui, ad quas in publico doctissimorum hominum consessu essem responsurus. John Pici Mirand. Apol. Tom. 1. operum p. 76.  upon 900. The ologicall and Philosophical questions at Rome, and in any of them to be ready to be respondent to any opponent: wherein though some commended his studiousness of good arts, yet did his offer give 
g Obtrectatorum turba multiplex assurrexit. Nonnulli me audacem dicere & temerarium, qui hac aetate, quartum scilicet & vigesimum nondum natus annum, de altissimis Philosophiae locis, de emnibus Christianae Theologiae mysteriis, etc. Ibid. p. 1677.  great offence unto many that accounted him an audacious and temerarious young man, who (not yet fully of age of 24 years) durst propose a disputation, of the profound points of Philosophy, of the sublime mysteries of Christian Theology, of unknown arts and disciplines in so famous a City, and so ample and numerous an assembly of learned men. And much more opposition and reproach he met withal: for his (at least) supposed presumption, 
h Cum nuper Romam venissem, pedes summi pontificis Innocentii ectavi, cui ab innocentia vitae nomen, meritissimè de more osculaturus. Ibid. princip. Alpo. p. 76.  which gave them just occasion to suspect, (though he were so superstitionsly humble as to come to Rome to kiss the Pope's foot) and seemingly so religiously lowly as to show himself seriously affected with the forecited saying of the Apostle, 1 Cor. 4.7. 
i Quid habemus quod nostrum sit? nun cuncta quae in nobis sunt Dei sunt? quid ergo oporter se extollere magni facere ostentare? glorietur qui gloriatur in Domino etc. John Pic. Mirand. Tom. 2. de study divinae & humanae Philosoph. l. 2. c. 6. p. 25.  what have we (saith he) that is ours? are not all things that are in us the things of God? why then should any one extol, magnify, or boast himself of any thing he hath? but let him that glorieth, glory in the Lord, since all good things are his and by his infinite grace and goodness bestowed upon us. Whether he thought seriously of this, when he made his challenge forementioned, we cannot determine, nor will we conjecture: But there are some, of whose forwardness to dispute we can have no good conceit, as of Felix the Manichean Heretic, who provoked Augustine (the renowned Bishop of Hippo) to public dispute; whereto he was so unprepared, that it was a doubt to him that published the report of what passed betwixt them, 
k Nescio quid potissimum admirer, Felicisne impudentiam qui provocavit ad publicam disputationem, ad quam adeo non fuit instructus ut vix asinus potuit insulsius argumentari; an populi tolerantiam; an Augustini stomachum invincibilem; qui tam● indoctis ineptiis tam diu tanta lenitate responderit: sic in Praefat. ad lect or de art. cum Felici Manichae. post finem lib. 2. Tom. 6. p. 651. operum Augustin.  whether were more to be admired, the impudence of Felix braying, rather than disputing; or the patience of the people, hearing his absurd arguings without tumult; or the invincible stomach of Augustine, who with such lenity continued so long to answer his unlearned follies. Of this over-eager affection to dissenting altercation, we find many examples among the Romanists, as john Eccius (whom 
l Johannes Eckius vel Eccius catholicae sidei adversus Lutherum ac reliquos haereticos propugnatur insignis Antipossevinus Appa. Sacri. Tom. 1. p. 871.  Possevine commends for a notable Champion against Luther and other Heretics, who when a disputation was appointed at Ratishon, ann. 1541. betwixt julius Pilugius, johannes Gropperus, and himself for the popish party, and Philip Melancthon, Martin Bucer, and john Pistorius, for the Protestants, 
m Illi verecundèse excusant, & ut alii magis idonei constituantur petunt omnes praeter Eccium, is enim paratü se diccbat & instructum. Sleidan. Comment. l. 13. p. 279.  all but Eccius, modestly desired to be excused, and entreated that others more fit might be appointed to discuss the points in difference betwixt them; but he said he was ready prepared for the purpose, yet it was to little purpose; for though he were so hot upon the matter, God took him off with another heart for 
n Aliquanto post in febrim incidit, it a quidem ut interesse non posset. Sleid. Ibid. 14. princip. lib. p. 281.  he seized on him with a fever, and thereby served him with a prohibition, that he could not be present; of him it is to be noted that though he were so forward to dispute, he wrote one discourse against disputing with Heretics, and 
o See Possevinus ubi suprà.  another that Heretics were to be burned: which showeth that he would not have their minds enligthned with instruction, but their bodies inflamed to destruction by burning faggots reared round about them. john Cochlens his mate in malignity to Protestant truths, was so vehemently and confidently bend, (by disputation) to oppose such as professed themselves Protestants, that he offered himself to dispute with any Lutheran, upon peril to lose his life if he failed in his proofs; but his confidence is the less, to be regarded, because as he persecuted truth; 
p Eccius commentar. rerum inde gestarum ann. 1531. p. 271.  under the name of Heresy so he published Heresy under the title of truth for he was the first that set forth the works of johannes Maxentins 
q Cochleus opera Johannis Maxentii sub. nomine orthodoxi patris primus edidit. Tom. 4. Biblioth Patr. p. 433.  as an orthodox father whom some of his own side, (more learned than himself, as Margarinus Dola Bigne) have since dicovered to be an 
r Opera Maxentii cautissimè legenda, nec illis fidendum, cùm lateat Eutychianae haereseos venenum. Ib. etc. p. 445.  Entychian Heretic, as the reader may see in the fourth tome of Bibliotheca Patrum: the Eutychian heresy acknowledged but one nature in Christ, and that was the divine, and 
s Alphonsus de castro adversus haereses lib. 4. titulo de Christi haeres. 4 col. 4278.  held that our bodies at the resurrection shall be more subtle than the wind, so that they shall neither be seen nor felt. After Eccius and Cochleus was set up the sect of the jesuits, which some place upon the year 
t Ibid. l. 13. titulo de resurrectione, haeres. 2. col. 906.  1530. some in 
u Buccalzer. Jud. Chronol. p. 534.  1540 Among them none ever set a bolder face upon so bad a cause as the 
w Ludou. Lucius Hist. Jesuit, c. 1. p. 1.  jesuit Edmund Campian did; who made a thrasonical challenge to dispute with the Universities of England, reducing the reasons of his dispute to ten heads, which Possevine (a fiery-spirited jesuit, for the good liking he hath of them, and fearing (in time) so small a book as they made might be lost, incorporated into his 
“ See Possevinus Bibliotheca select. part. p. 309. ad 324.  first part of his Bibliotheca Selecta. In these reasons of his offer, he seems cum ratione insanire, to be mad with such a mistake atheirs who think they have reason, when they kill Christ's servants, to think they do him service, John 16.2.  
His confident expressions in his cause, argue either a strange imposture of a deluding spirit, or a brazen impudence of a bragging Jesuit, 
x Si hoc praestitero, coelos esse. Sanctosesse, fidem esse, Christum esse, causam obtinui. Camp. in Epist. Academicis Oxonii florentibus. Ib. 320.  If I do make good (saith he) that there is an Heaven, that there be Saints, that there is faith, that there is a Ghrist; I have won the victory. 
y Patres si quando licebit accedere, confectum est praelium; tam sunt nostri quàm Gregorius ipse 13. filiorum Ecclesiae pater amantissimus ● Ibid. ratione 5. p. 315.  If we come to try our differences by the fathers, the war is at an end; they are as certainly ours as Pope Gregory the thirteenth, a most loving Father of the Children of the Church: But when he was disputed within the Tower, ann. 1581. he that was so loud and vigorous in his challenge, was so low and feeble in performance, that it gave them cause to conceive who had well observed them both, 
z See Alex. Nowell and Will: Days Preface before the dispute printed ann. 1583.  that the book was none of his which was published in his name; howsoever he that reads his challenge, and the true relations of the dispute or conference , will find that his rhetoric was more plausible in the one, than his logic powerful in the other; so that we can neither say (according to Sampsons' riddle) out of the strong came sweetness, Judges 14.14. Nor out of the sweetness came strength. For it was his weakness of judgement to take so great a burden on him as he was nor able to bear, and the weakness of his cause and judgement both, which suffered it to sink when he took it into protection, and undertook to support it against so many vigorous Assailants as he provoked to oppose it; when one learned man was able to turn that counterfeit Divine into a mere Thraso, his reasons into bubbles, his threats into trifles and vapours of vanishing smoke; 
“ Campianum ita fregit Whitakerus, ut omnes sanae mentis facile viderent ementitum Theologum in verum Thrasonem, rationes in ampullas, denique omnes minas in meras nugas & fumum levissimum evanuisse. Melch. Adamus in vita Whitakeri part. poster. p. 169.  as Melchior Adamus very fitly setteth forth his folly and foil.  
There have been some women who have so much forgotten the frailty and modesty of their sex, as to make chattings to learned men for disputation in matters of Religion; of this there is a memorable story, but how true it is I cannot tell, because cause I have it but upon the report of 
a Parsons in the Preface to his report of 10. disp. p. 29, 30. added to the third part of his treatise entitled the 3 conversions of England.  a jesuit, (who howsoever most highly honoured by his sect, is for his many 
b See the glorious Elogium of Robert Parsons in Capital Letters in. Philip. Alagamb. Bibliotheca. Societat. Jesus p. 414.  falsities, and some forgeries, of little credit among the Protestants,) which is this: In the year of Christ 403. Ascertain wilful woman, of the City of Antioch, named Julia, infected with the abominable heresy of the Manichees, and fervent therein, came to the City of Gaza, whereof Saint Porphyrius, an holy learned man, was Bishop; and beginning there to pervert Christians, and being reprehended for it by the Bishop, she challenged him to an open disputation, which the good man admitted, she behaved herself so insolently as was intolerable: what the issue and effect was, is to be observed under another title. Another example I had occasion to note in a letter to a worthy Lady, of a woman for her learning above most of her sort, or sex, her name was Argala, a Protestant, of whom 
c Gretzer. Tom. 1. defence. Bellarm. lib. 2. c. 51. Col. 833, 834.  Gretzer the Jesuit reports that she sent a challenge to Eckius, (of whom we have spoken before) to dispute with him, who not so patiented as the Bishop forementioned, sent her a distasse and spindle, to put her upon employment more proper to her Sex. It had been more to her commendation, if she had been as learned as the noble Virgin Anna Maria a Schur-man, to have been as modest and silent as she was, who needed the 
d Immortal virginum decus, cùm nihil natura tibi denegaverit, ac omnia detulerit eruditio, videris tamen latere velle, & comitem rectè factorum gloriam repudiare: totnè linguas calls, ut sileas? totnè disciplinis generosum istum instruxisti animum, ut unitas agiter inglorius arts? 2. Sic Joh. Beverovicius Epist. ad illam p. 5. illius libri edit. 1641. Lugd. Batav.  urgent persuasions of learned men, to let her learning be known for the benefit of others: and though 
e Quod tibi nunc offertur specimen faelicissimi ingenii virginis quae patem non habet, exiguum est si cum iis quae effecta habet & parata, comparetur: sed pro ea qua est modestia, etc. Ibid. p. 7.  she have written much, worthy to be committed to public view; yet such was her modesty, that not without much importunity, that little which is printed was extorted from her, which had not been obtained of her but that some had anticipated her consent by precedent publication. I can find but few such examples to commend to the imitation of women; and I need not bring more of such extravagants from Christian moderation, and female modesty, as some forenoted; since our age hath afforded many heretical viragoes, who have dared to set upon Preachers in their pulpits on the Sabbath day, in full Congregations; taking upon them not only to be opponents of their Doctrine, but to be judges both of it and them, which offices they usurped with a kind of papal presumption, as if they were guided in what they did by an infallible spirit; and some have not been ashamed to put others to blush for their impudence, and these of both Sexes, as well Evites, as Adamites: but that which at present we have in pursuit and prosecution, is that intemperate humour of disputing, of which a wise and learned Statesman said, 
f Pruritus disputandi est scabies Ecclesiae. Sir Henr. Wootton, Warden of Eton college.  the itch of dispute is the scab of the Church: Which he might happily take from Ludovicus Vives, who hath an expression of near affinity, or rather consangunity unto it; As those 
g Quemadmodum qui pruritus tic●…latione acti, nimium scabentes sanguinem eliciunt, & dolour succedit in locum suavitatis; ita istidum nimium scalpunt veritatem, etc. Ludovic. Vives de causis corruptar. artium l. 3. p. 127.  (saith he) who are acted by the tickling of itch, do scratch too much and draw blood, (whence there succeedeth soreness for sweetness, pain for pleasure:) So those who scratch the truth too much by disputation, wound it, and leave it in a condition of a necessity for some other means to cure and heal it.  
Quest. But are not the Protestants much commended by a 
h Sir Edw. Sands Europae Speculum. p. 85.  judicious writer, for their offers of disputation to their adversaries in all place? For their iterated and importuned suits for public audience and judgement? and is it not observed by him, for matter of advantage to the Protestant proceed, as a thing which greatly assured the multitude of their soundness, whom they saw so confident in abiding the hazard of public trial? they standing in like terms as a substantial just man, and a facing shifter; whereof the ones credit is greatest there where he is best known, and the others where he is least.  
Ans. Whereto I answer, that when Luther and others made revolt from the Romish Religion, the Romanists were most gross in doctrine, most lose in practice, (especially the Prelates and the ruling Clergy) most injurious to the right and liberty of the people (both as men and as Christians;) for which they were justly made odious to them which had a true relish of Religion or moral honesty. All these particulars I could undeniably demonstrate if there were need, and this place were fit for such a proof as the charge will require: Therefore  
It was the prudence of the Protestants, not their intemperance or distemper, to desire disputation in those times; because then as they had more just cause to oppose the Romanists, so had the Romanists less ability to defend themselves: for, as that worthy Gentleman well 
i Ibid.  observeth, they were not so cunning then in the questions, nor so ready in their evasions, as now they are grown: so that (as he saith) the effect of their offers, (whether received or refused) was in most places such, as to draw with them an immediate alteration in Religion; and he medneth it by turning frrm the Popish to that which is Protestant. This doubt cleared, I shall return to my discourse of the disputing disease, whereto as some have it thing cares, (as the Apostle saith, 2 Tim. 4.3.) so some have itching tongues; some itching fingers and pens. Such are those disputing Papists, who are commonly called Schoolmen; of whom (though Peter Lombard Bishop of Paris, was the founder, father or master, (and well he deserved that title, saith 
k Collegit sententias sacrorum theologorum, & magister sententiarum & sacrorum theologorum dici meruit. Bellarm. de Eccles. Script. ad ann. 1145. p. 322.  Bellarmine;) yet his Scholars and followers, (especially Aquinas, and Scotus, with their Scholastic Commentators) have multiplied the number of needless questions, far beyond the limits of sober, reasonable and religious inquiries. I will set down some of them, and those so many as may serve to make good my charge; (not omitting others as occasion shall induce me to mention them, though not of their tribe.) Beginning with Aquinas, 
l Aquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1.  and taking more out of him then any other Questionist, because he is a Canonised Saint of the Romish Church, and in their Schools and Books commonly styled the Angelical Doctor.  
His questions are, 1. Of God. 2. Of. Christ. 3. Of Angels. 4. Of Men.  

l Aquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1.  1. Whether it be agreeable to God to be good.  

m Ib. q. 14 ar. 2.  2. Whether God understand himself.  

n Ib. q. 19 ar. 1.  3. Whether there be a will in God.  

o Ib. q. 21. ar. 1.  4. Whether there be justice in God.  

p Ib. q. 25. ar. 1.  5. Whether there be power in God.  

q Apud Ludou. Viu. in Aug. l. 18. c. 16.  6. Whether he can give power to a Crastore to create.  

r Aquinas ad. 2d. vol. prim. par. q. 44. are 4.  7. Whether it were convenient that God should require to be beloved with all the heart.  

s 2d. 2d. vo 2. q. 90. ar. 1.  8. Whether God be to be praised with the mouth:  
2. Of Christ, he hath some vain questions, but because other Papists have far worse, I will mention theirs rather then his. First, it is a very vain and fond question. 
t Orat. Dan. Cromeri. oppos. Bellarmino. p. 170, 171.  which Cromerus noteth, viz: Whether Christ were of the order of the Dominicans, or Franciscans. But they are worse than vain, for they are vile; worse than fond, for they are mad: which Erasmus hath collected, I will set them down in his Language; for they are most of them so profane and blasphemous, that I am loath to deliver them in any other: and therefore I will set them down as I find them in that Author, so much the more worthy of credit, because by three Popes, 
u Leo Pontifex maximus dilecto filio. Erasmo. Eras. Epist. l. 1. p. 49. idem l. 2. p. 72. Upon which the note of the index expurg. is, paternis visceribus pius pater nutantem oviculam blandis encomiis allicere conatur. p. 237. col. 2.  Leo the tenth, 
w Epist. l. 23. p. 864. 865.  Adrian the sixth, and 
x Paulus P. 3. Desid. Erasm. Rot. Sacr. Theolog. profess. disect. fill. etc. Epist. lib. 27. p. 1095.  Paul the third, he was acknowledged for a Son of those Ghostly Fathers by their Letters written to him, two by Pope Leo, by Pope Adrian two, and by Pope Paul one; in all which he is not only kindly accepted, but highly commended by them. In his 
y 1 Num sint plures in Christo filiationes. 2 Num possibilis sit propositio, Deus odit filium. 3 Num Deus potuerit suppositare mulierem. 4 Num Diabolum. 5 Num allnum. 6 Num Cucurbitam. 7 Num silicem. This is somewhat like that of Ludovic. Vives, a Deus posset suppositare hanc pennā qua scribo. Plut. in come. in libro. Aug. de c. 13.8 Tum quemadmodum si cucurbita esset concionatura. 9 Num editura miracula. 10 Num figenda cruci. Hac apud Erasm. Moriae Encom. Quid sit suppositum & suppositare in divinis, vid. Suarez. disp. Tom. 1. p. 150. disp. 11.  Moriae Encomium he rehearseth ten, whereof the first is foolish, the rest blasphemous, as the learned Reader may see, though but in a marginal observation: for I had rather set them down on the  hand, covered with a Latin mask, then to place them bare-faced, for the readiest view of an ordinary Reader.  
To such questions may pertinently be applied the censure of Nazianzen, they are so wretchedly affected 
z Greg. Naz. vol. 1. orat. 33. p. 431.  (saith he) that they make it their delight to make trifling disputes of divine matters, and are as presumptuous many times in resolving of curious questions, as rash in proposing them to the trial of disputation; 
a Idem. Orat. 35. p. 561.  whose precipitation and temerity he thinketh very fit to be bridled and restrained.  
3. Of Angels, Aquinas inquires 
b Aquin. prim. part. vol. 2. q. 56. ar. 1.  whether they know themselves.  
2. Whether their knowledge be matutine and vespertine; which he takes occasion to dispute from the expression of 
c Aug. Super Genes. ad lit. l. 2. c. 8.  Angustine.  
3. 
d Aquin. prim. part. vol. 3. 2. q. 60. ar. 3.  Whether Angels love themselves with a natural or an elective dilection.  
4. 
e Ib. q. 63. ar. 9  Whether as many remained in the state of grace as fallen from it.  
5. 
f Ib. q. 117. ar. 2.  Whether men can teach Angels.  
1. Of man, whether the rib of which Eve, was made were one of Adam's necessary ribs, or one superfluous: this is the question of 
g Peter. super Genesin. c. 2. q. 6. p. 159.  Pererius a learned Jesuit, which by his own confession is by one of his own centured for a superfluous questions  

h Ibid. Tom. 1. lib. 4. q. 2. p. 166 Quomodo statu innocentiae faeminae generati possunt etc. Ib. q. 3. c. 2. An in statu innocentiae integritas faeminei genitali s commixtione viri, etc. Ib. q. 4. col. 1.  2. Whether in the state of innocency, the number of males and females should have been equal.  
To these two we may add two more out of the same Jesuit; but because they are not so modest as the former, I had rather make a marginal note of them, in the Latin words of the Author, then express any part of them in my English text: yet be would seem very bashful to the Popish Bishop Abulensis Tostatus, who discusseth so obscene a question about circumcision, that he cannot for shame make mention of it, and therefore thinketh it best to pass it over in silence; and so do I: there are many of that sort in Sanchez his great bellied book de mat●imonio, which maketh good the words of 
k De delectatione praeputiatorum, etc. Ita pudenda est illius oratio & disputatio, ut praester ca silentio praeteriri. Perer. in Genes. 17. disp. 2. p. 596. v. 1. Cum coelibatum profiteantur, nimis●e muliebrium rerum peritos testantur. Pareus in Gen. 19 v. 33.  Pareus, of the badness of such as pretending to live chastely single show themselves by their discourses too well acquainted with women's matters.  
Of man's death and resurrection there are moved many disputes, as idle and audacious as the rest: there is one Bartholomew Sibylla hath written a whole book of strange questions, among which 
l Barth. Sibylla specul. peregrin quaest. decad. 1. c. 2. q. 7. p. 5455.  one of the passage of the soul out of the body, whether it go on the right hand or the left; whether forward or backward.  
Of the resurrection Aquinas hath many vain queries; as 
m Aquin. supplem. tertiae part. q. 81. ar. 3 c.  whether all shall arise in the male Sex, and 
n Ib. q. 8. ar. 2.  whether the hairs and nails shall rise up with the body; with many others of like sort, which I pass over because I would leave room for others of another kind, which manifest the Papists to be the greatest doters upon impertinent and unprofitable questions, and the boldest determiners of doubtful things, that are. This appeareth not only by their disputes and questions, such as I have observed already; but by their resolution of many doubts (as they pretend) by divine revelation; which may best be delivered by way of question and answer, (as in form of a Catechism) divers of which are set down in two such Papists books, as usually supplied matter to their Priests for Sermons to the people; of which the one is the big book of the lives of the Saints, called by themselves the Golden Legend: though by by those who have read it with indifferency, the lying legend, made by Jacobus de Voragine, as he is ordinarily termed (but as 
c Posse. Apparat. Sacr. vol. 1. p. 794.  Possevine corrects the name, jacob de Varagine, Archbishop of Geneva) his book was printed at Venice, ann. 1575. The other book is a book of selected Sermons, printed by james Kavinell, for the use of simple Priests who want cunning to preach: So in the title of the book, the time and place of the first publication of it I find not noted. This premised, I will begin the questions out of their former book of lies with the author of lies the Devil.  
Quest. 1. What is the proper likeness of the Devil? 
d Leg. aur. fol. 244. p. 1. col. 2.  He is like an Ethiopian, more black than thunder, his face sharp, his beard long, his hairs hanging unto his feet, his eyes flaming as hot as fire, casting out sparkles of fire, and out of his mouth come flames of sulphur; his hands bound with chains of fire behind his back.  
Quest. 2. When the Devil had tempted Adam and Eve, or Adam by Eve, to eat the forbidden fruit, what penance did they undergo, (after they had yielded to the Devil) and were expelled out of Paradise?  

e Thebook of selected Sermons printed by James Kavinell Dominic. Sep. mages. fol. 8. p. 1. col. 2.  Ans. For many years before their death they stood either of them in water a night up to the chin, (far from one another) till their flesh was as green as grass.  
But we must make a long leap into the new Testament, else we shall stay too long, and make our questions too many.  
Quest. 3. Why was Peter bidden to put up his sword when he drew it in our Saviour's defence?  

f Menot, Serm. fol. 47. col. 4.  Because he had nor cunning enough to use it; for he cut off Malchus his care when he should have cut off his head.  
Quest. 4. How many thorns were in the Crown that was set upon the head of Christ?  

g Apol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 35. p. 274. out of Bonaventure, Lyra & Maylard.  Just a thousand.  
Quest. 5. How many wounds had the body of our Saviour in the whole?  
Ans. 
h pa. 14. of the office of the Virgin, printed at Paris. ann. 1524.  Five thousand four hundred and sixty.  
Quest. 6. What were the thiefs names that were cruicified with Christ?  
Ans. 
i Leg. aur. fol. 16. p. 1. col. 2.  Dysmas the name of him that was saved, and Gesmas the name of him that was damned.  
Quest. 7. Why was Dysmas saved rather than Gesmas?  
Ans. 
k A Franciscan of Bourdeaux Apol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 33. p. 260.  Because he would not suffer his fellows to rob Christ when he fled into Egypt.  
Quest. 8. How know you that S. Thomas Becket (whose salvation hath been 
l See Speeds Chron. l. 9 c. 6. p. 510. col. 2. 43.  called in question, even among our own ca because of his contumacy against his King) was saved?  
Ans. A 
m Leg. aur. fol. 180. p. 2. col. 1.  young man died and raised by miracle, said, there was in heaven a void seat; and ask whose it was, answer was made, that it was kept for a great Bishop of England named Thomas of Canturbury. 
n Symbolum dedit, coenavit. Ter. Andr. Act. 1. Sen. 1. Durand. Rational. l. 4. c. 25. fol. 133. p. 1. Erasm. Catechism. Symboli Apostolor. etc. set out with pictures to every Article at the beginning of the book.   
Quest. 9 How was the Creed called the Apostles Creed composed by the twelve Apostles?  
Ans. As a shot made up by guests each paying his share, for 

Article 1 was laid down by Saint 1 Peter.  
Article 2 was laid down by Saint 2 Andrew.  
Article 3 was laid down by Saint 3 james the Son of Zebede.  
Article 4 was laid down by Saint 4 john.  
Article 5 was laid down by Saint 5 Philip.  
Article 6 was laid down by Saint 6 Bartholemew.  
Article 7 was laid down by Saint 7 Thomas.  
Article 8 was laid down by Saint 8 Matthew.  
Article 9 was laid down by Saint 9 james the son of Alpheus.  
Article 10 was laid down by Saint 10 Simon.  
Article 11 was laid down by Saint 11 Thaddeus.  
Article 12 was laid down by Saint 12 Mathias.    
Quest. 10. What shall be the condition of the world the last fifteen days before the day of Judgement?  
Ans. 
p See Leg. aur. on the advent of our Lord. fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. and compare it with the selected Sermons out of it published by James Kavinell, fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. etc. In whose book the days are thus numbered and the number thus precisely reckoned as precedent immediately before the day of judgement.  The first of the fifteen days the water shall rise upon the Sea, and it shall be higher than any hill by forty cubits.  
2. The second day the Sea shall fall down so low, that unneath the earth may be seen.  
3. The third day the great fishes, as Whales and others, shall appear above the water, and shall cry unto Heaven, and God only shall understand their cry.  
4. The fourth day the Sea and waters shall burn.  
5. The fifth day all trees and herbs shall sweat blood, and all manner of fowls shall come together, and neither eat nor drink for dread of the doom that is coming.  
6. The sixth day all great buildings, Castles, Towers, Steeples and Houses, shall fall down, and burn till the Sun rise again.  
7. The seventh day all Stones and Rocks shall beat together, that each shall break other, with an horrible noise, the which shall be heard into Heaven.  
8. The eight day the Earth shall quake, so that there may no man stand thereon but shall fall down.  
9 The ninth day the people shall go out of their dens, and go as they were mindless, and none speak to other.  
10. The tenth day Hills and Earth shall be made even and plain.  
11. The eleventh day all graves and tombs shall open, and the bodies shall stand upon them.  
12. The twelfth day Stars shall fall from Heaven, and shall spread out rays of fire; on this day, it is said, that all the beasts shall come to the field howling, and shall not eat nor drink.  
13. The thirteenth day all living shall die, to the end that they shall rise with the dead bodies.  
14. The fourteenth day the Heaven and the Earth shall burn.  
15. The fifteenth day shall be a new Heaven and a new Earth, and all things and all dead men shall arise.  
I had not been so serious, nor insisted so long in discovery of the foolish and unlearned questions (such as the Apostle reproveth, 2 Tim. 2.23.) of the Papists, both polemical Schoolmen, and Legendary Preachers, and their ridiculous vanity in resolving many curious and superfluous doubts by revelation; but that I have many of that deceived sort in my parish, (though I thank God some fewer than I found when I came thither, and I hope to make them yet sewer, if God please to give me time to effect what I have in desire, and design, which is, to manifest, that the ruling Romanists are the subtlest Masters of the subtlest Mystery of iniquity in the world; and their seduced disciples, (especially the illiterate) the most foolish people in the world, from whom they keep the Scripture, and so keep them in blind ignorance, that (like hooded hawks) they may carry them whither they please; for which wrong they would seem to make them some recompense by setting images before them, which are commonly called laymen's books, though they can reach them none other lesson then that a Christian should not learn, viz. falsehood, vanity and errors, Jer. 10.14, 15. and by pretended revelations, which are either mere forgeries of their audacious Doctors, or mere fallacies of the great deceiver mentioned by St. john, Rev. 12.9. who makes them doters about questions and strife of words, 1 Tim. 6.4. and puffeth them up to an affectation of forbidden knowledge, as he did our first parents, Gen. 3. and their disciples receivers of any foolish fancy which they suggest unto them.)  
But my principal aim in what I have hitherto said in this Chapter, is, to curb those men of corrupt minds, who are too prone to perverse dispute, such as the Apostle reproveth, 1 Tim. 6.5. and since (by their dispute) questioning and resolving, aiming to be wise above that is written, 1 Cor. 4.6. they have bewrayed their egregious folly to the world, we may tauntingly take up the question of the Apostle, 1 Cor. 1.20. and put it to them, where is the wise? where is the Scribe? where is the disputer of the world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? he hath doubtesse: and we may take the great School-man and Questionist Aquinas for instance, whom though 
q Bellarm. de Eccles. Script. ad ann. 165. p. 347.  Bellarmine commend for his holinlesse and wisdom, was neither so holy nor so wise as he should have been: not so holy, 1. Because he was so bold as to put to dispute so many undoubted principles of divinity as we have noted.  
Secondly, because he lacked humility, without which there is no true holiness, which he might have learned of his Master Peter 
r Moderatior est Petrus Lombardus, qui sententias alienas recitans non temerè de suo addit, aut si quid, timidè proponit. Erasm. in Epist. ad Charon. delectum Episc. Panorum. Epist. l. 28. p. 1161.  Lombard, of whom Erasmus rightly observeth, that resiting the opinions or sentences of others, he did not rashly add any thing of his own; and when he added any thing, it was rather with fear then confidence.  
Nor was he so wife as he should have been: for as much as he wanted in humility, so much he had in pride, and as much pride, so much folly; for pride and folly, as humility and wisdom, are sorted together by the wife man, Prov. 14. v. 3. c. 11. v. 2. And though he looked for credit by his bold inquiries and conclusions, and had it of those of his own side; yet such as were sound in the faith, and not partial in affection, discovered and disdained his pride, and so it was followed with shame, as Solomon observeth, Prov. 11.2. whereof we have a memorable passage betwixt Erasmus, and Dr. Collet, the godly and famous Dean of Paul's, in K. H. the 8, his days; to whom when Erasmus had much commended Aquinas, to hear his judgement of him, and he gave him none answer, he proposed and more vehemently pressed the praise of him the second time: to which 
s Tanquam afflatus Spiritu quodam, quid tu, inquit, mihi praedicas istum, qui nisi habuisset multum arrogantiae, non tanta temeritate, tantoque supercilio definisset omnia; & nisi habuisset aliquid Spiritus mundani, non ita totam Christi doctrinam sua prophanâ Philosophiâ contaminasset. Erasm. Epist. ad Jodoc. Jonae l. 15. p. 486.  Collet, as if he had been inspired with an answer from God, presently replied, What mean you so to praise that man to me, who if be had not had much arrogancy in him, would not with such temerity and superciliousness have defined all things? and if he had not had somewhat of the Spirit of the world, he would not have so defiled the Doctrine of Christ with his profane Philosophy. How worthy a man Dr. Colles was (for learning and Godliness) they that desire to know, may find a short story of him in Mr. Fox his 
t Fox Martyr. vol. 2. p. 54. 55.  second volume of Acts and Monuments, and in the forecited Epistle of Erasmus, he was so much a Papist (being levened with the corrupt Doctrine of the age wherein he lived) that King Henry the 8. after a Sermon preached by him in his presence, and long communication with him, by occasion thereof dismissed him with these words, Let every one have his Doctor as he liketh, this shall be my Doctor: and yet so much a Protestant both in his preaching and practice, that as 
u Bish. Lat. in his 7th. Serm, on the Lor. Prayer. sol. 174. p. 2.  Bishop Latimer sald, he should have been burned in K. H. the Eight his reign, if God had not inclined the King's heart to the contrary.   

CHAP. III. That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and reason, and not only lawful, but sometimes also expedient and profitable.  
THough for the undoubted duties of morality, the Apostle prescribeth present and prompt obedience, without murmur or desputing, and that in all things of that kind, Phil. 2.14. yet for matter of faith and conscience he requireth no such facility either in affection, or in fact; but giveth leave and leisure, or rather advise to Christians, to bring both the Spirits and speeches of men to trial, 1 john 4.1. 1 Thes. 5.21. and when he requireth of Christian believers that they be ready always to give an answer to every one that asketh a reason of the hope that is in them, 1 Pet. 3.15. he meaneth (doubtless) that if any cavil at that answer or reason, he that giveth it should make answer for it to defend it; and if this be required of a Christian, much more of a Minister, who should be able by sound Doctrine both to exhort and convince the gaiansayers, Tit. 9.11. as it is said of Apollo's, that he mightily convinced the jews, and that publicly, showing by the Scripture that jesus was Christ: which may stop the mouths of some adversaries; as they say of 
f Mr. Trapp on Tit. 1.11.  Frogs, that if a light be hanged over the lake wherein they lie, will leave crocking: though some be so contumacious against the truth, so malicious against them who prevalently plead for it, that they will rather stop their mouths (by violence) who have overcome them by the power of truth, as they did by Stephen when they stoned him, Act. 7. v. 54, 57, 59 then confess themselves convinced or satisfied with the clearest evidence produced in the plainest cause that can be debated: but this is not the fault of disputation itself, but the perverseness of the disputant, who will disputare or discedere (for according to that sense we may make the Etymology of the word) though he have not one wise word to say for the folly and falsity of his opinion; we must, as saith that ancient Doctor and Confessor H●larius, 
g Non tam evitanda quàm ●…futanda [Dogmata] non tam refugere debemus quàm refellere, etc. Hilaran Psal. l. 2. p. 186.  not flee from the erroneous doctrines of men, a● afraid to encounter them; but must refel and conquer them by disputations as Picus Mirandula saith, It is the 
h Disputatio cribrum veritatis. Picus Mirandula. Tom. 2. operum. 3. Epist. p. 853.  sieve or searce to sever the fine flower of truth from the course bran of error: which is not more for the honour of truth, then for the benefit of those that do embrace it; for so distinguished, it is not only more amiable to the eye, and more pleasant to the taste, but more nutritive, as breeding better and puter nourishment to the soul. And as it is a deed and duty of charity for such as have the charge of souls to feed them with the finest of the whest, and with the honey out of the rock to satisfy them, which is the provision that God is willing to bellow upon his obedient people, Psalm 81. v. last: So is it also a charitable act and office, not to suffer them to be choked with the bran of error and Heresy, which many are too forward to obtrude upon ignorant and inconsiderate people; yea heretical seducement is more dangerous than so, for the Apostle saith of such as Hymeneus and Philetus, who were heretics, that their speech will ●at like a Canker, or Gangrene, 2 Tim. 2.17. which is easy to catch, and hard to cure: what their Heresy in particular was, is not discovered in the Scriptures, nor in any ancient Author near the times wherein they lived: of Philetus there is mention but once, that is in the place forecited; of Hymeneus twice, viz. both here and 1 Tim. 1. last, where he hath another malignant mate named with him, viz. Alexander, whom Saint Paul delivered to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme: by which we learn, it was a blasphemous Doctrine, and probably it was (as 
i Theodoret on the 1 Tim. 1. last.  Theodoret conceiveth) well known to Timothy; and we know that a Canker and Gangrene are very dangerous diseases, and those who are Spiritual Physicians, aught in charity to do their best to keep their flocks from such infective and destructive mischiefs. And if disputation be a means, as being wisely ordered it may prove, it may be expedient that way to curb and discourage Heretics from corrupting of them: which may serve also for an antidote to preserve their ears from the venom and poison of heretical tongues; who, if they be let alone, without opposition will go on to subvert whole houses, as the Apostle saith, Tit. 1.11. And as for prevention of the spreading of Heresy, so for recovery of such as are already ensnared by it, and for reconciliation of such as descent in judgement and affection, disputations may be requisite and useful; to which purpose 
k Pollid. in vita Aug c. 3.  Honorius the Emperor compelled the Donatists to give meeting to the Catholics, and sometimes they have proved very advantageous to the truth: Thus it was in the beginning of the reformation of Religion, when the errors of Popery were in their nature more gross, more rude in their dress, and their Priests nothing so politic as since they have been; the Protestants 
l Sir Edw. Sands Europae speculum. p. 85.  loffired disputations in all places the effects whereof, as were touched before whether received or refused, drew with them an immediate alteration of Religion: for if they were received, the better cause prevailed; if they were not, they who refused gave cause of suspicion, that their Coin howsoever it were gilded, was indeed but Copper, which could not (as pure gold) endure to be tried by the touch stone; and the alteration of Religion than was such as 
m Disputatio Bernensis s●une finem habuit apud illos & aliquot vicinos, missae, arae & statuae erant abolitae. Surius commentar. ann. 1527. p. 208.  Surius complaineth of; Masses, Altars and images were abolished.  
And as disputation, if ordered as it ought to be, may produce good effects, so the want of that, especially the refusal of it, when it is importunately called for by the adversaries, may give them occasion of insulting; and 
n Taciturnitas corumquiresistere deberent perverrenti●…us fidei veritatem, esset errorisconfirmatio. Epist. Synod. in Concil. Basil. Tom. 8. p. 230. col. 2.  the silence of such as should contest with them may be turned to the confirmation of error, as is observed in the Synodall Epistles of the Council of Basil, which was likely to have been the ill effect of yours and Doctor Grewes' refusal to encounter with M. Knowles and Mr. Kiffin, if you had not been as resolute to resist them as they were presumptuous to provoke you to dispute.  
Lastly, as conferences and debates may effect much spiritual good, if managed as they should be, (and I still understand them with that limitation) so may they be means of corporal good also; for where no disputations are allowed of, there the matters of difference are carried with more fraud, force and violence; as we have touched before upon the Spanish Inquisition, and may observe further, out of the 
* Neque in disputando apud tales pertinaci animositate centendentes & annitentes propriae prudentiae, ullus unquam erit finis; etc. Cochleus Hist. lib. 1. c. 21. Chap. 2. let. n.  Epistle of John Gerson to the Archbishop of Prague, wherein he would not have him to put the matters in difference with the Bohemian Protestants to disputation, but adviseth him to take another course, which is to cut down Heresy by the Temporal Sword; he means the Heretics: for (saith he) by disputing with such as with pertinacious animosity contend, leaning to their own prudence, there will never be an end, etc.  
This agreeth well with that of Eccius, who (as we noted before) wrote one Treatise against disputation with Heretics, another for burning of them; which Bellarmine would have taken not for a persecution of them, but for an act of favour and benefit to them, as we shall have occasion more particularly to note in the fifth chap. Much more charitable and Christian was the 
p Can. 66. Synod Lond. ann. 1604.  Canon of our English Bishops for conference with Recusants; and had they been as careful to ordain only good and able Ministers as they should have been, we might have found better fruits of their government than we have done. But the effects and issues of colloquies, conferences and disputations, I reserve for another chapter, viz. the fifth now cited.   

CHAP. IU. An Historical collection of disputations of several sorts, principally concerning differences in matter of Religion. In two sections.  


1. Containing examples from the Apostles to Luther.  
2. Of examples from Luther to the present age.    

OF disputations, some are managed without the strife tongues, Psal. 31.10. as the dialogues or colloquies of Plato, Cicero, Lucian, among the Heathens; and some of Athanasius, Hierome, Augustine's tracts among the ancient Fathers; Galatinus, Erasmus, Peter Martyr, and other, of later times. To this head may be referred the polemical discourses, that are read in Schools, or published in print, or both, of differences in Religion; as Bellarmine calleth his Volumes of controversies, Disputations, though there appeared none opposite to dispute against him. And some, though agitated with strife of tongues, are not like the divisions of Reuben, great thoughts of heart, Judg. 5.15. Such are the disputes now in print, whereof Gilbert Voetius professor at Vtriect was moderator, betwixt a visible and vocal Opponentand Respondent, contradicting each other, yet without any hearty opposition; both parties, though adverse in words, yet of one mind and one judgement: and so it is in the ordinary Academical disputations of Oxford and Cambridge, where the controversy is rather formal then serious, except when the Respondent taketh upon him the defence of some Paradox, as one Mr. Ph. of Mort. College did in my time, who proposed this for an Act-question, 
a An liceat pro puncto honoris aliquem interficere.  Whether for a point of honour it were lawful for any one to kill another: wherein he held the affirmative, which how it came to p●sse that it was permitted I know not; sure I am that divers learned and conscientious men were displeased with it: or when the Opponent is of a contrary judgement to the Respondent, as Mr. Tombs to Doctor Savage, when at the Act in Oxford he disputed against the Baptism of Infants. This was very contrary to manner of the old Academics of the Plato's institution, so called from the 
b Academici ex locivocabulo nomen habuerunt. Cicer. Acad. quaest l. 1. edit. 2. p. 34. 12.  place where the Philosophers met to dispute, I mean for peremptoriness of opinion; who were so far from maintaining paradoxal positions or conclusions, that they would positively conclude, or determine nothing at all, holding as 
c Id habebant Academici decr●tum, nihil posse percipi. Cic. Ib. edit. 1. l. 2. p. 49. Num. 29.  a decree, that nothing by dispute could be discovered; wherein some were so absurd (as 
d Chius Metrodorus in initio libri qui est de natura, nego, inquit, scire nos sciamusne aliquid, an nihil sciamus. Ib. p. 17 Num. 67.  Chius Metrodorus) that they denied a man could know whether he knew any thing or nothing; and therefore though they disputed much, it was 
e Proprium est Academiae judicium suum nullum interponere, sed quod in quamque sententiam diei possit expromere, sed judicium audientibus relinquere integrum & liberum. Cicer. de divin. l. 2. p. 305.  proper to their discipline to bring in reasons on both sides, to find out what is most likely, and so without passing any sentence to leave the judgement wholly to the hearers. The 
f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Diog. Laert. in vita Pyrthonis lib. 9 p. 675.  Sceptics in Diogenes Laertius, were of near affinity to them, who were so called, because they were ever seeking, and never found what they sought for: there were Sceptic women in the Apostles time, 2 Tim. c. 3. v. 7. Our Seekers are such in their Religion as those were in Philosophy, but so much the worse, as it is to be ignorant or unresolved of truth in Religion, especially in such points as are fundamental, then of points philosophical. But the Academical disputations of Christians are as well conclusive as discursive, although it were better that some Academies were rather sceptical then definitive, viz. such as were founded of purpose for opposition to the truth in the name of Heresy, as that of 
g Dua censis Academia in Relgio superioribus annis à Philip. 2. Rege Catholico instituta, cum per Germ. & Galliam perniciocissimas haereses increbrescere videret, etc. Jacob. Meddendorp. de Academ l. 3. p. 524.  Dowey by Philip the second King of Spain. The use of Disputations, colloquies and conferences rightly instituted, and according to the institutions observed, serves not only to clear problematical, 
h Non inutilitèr exercentur ingenia, si adhibeatur disceptatio modetata, & absit error opinantium se scire quod nesciunt. Augustin. Eachirid. ad Laurent. c. 59 Tom. 3. part. 1. p. 218.  and to assure and confirm fundamental doctrines, but are profitable, as Austin observeth, for the exercise of wit, if the disceptation be moderate, and without the error of such as think they know that they know not.  
Though I mention these Academical disputations, as in honour to learning, to which we should take all fair occasions to give laudable testimony; especially since some in these times with a Turkish Antipathy to learning, cry down Academical Colleges, Books, Studies, exercises, and would Level those fair Fabrics, as Babylonian buildings, even with the ground, unless they might take them in possession for themselves, (which once the Levellers attempted;) yet I make them rather a Proem then a part of mine historical Catalogue, which shall consist of the personal debates of such as are far from the professed Union of the Apostle, in speaking the same thing, and being perfectly joined together in one mind and one judgement, 1 Cor. 1.10. whose minds are contrary, and their tongues contradictory, and their pens also; when they take them up like pikes to prosecute the war by writing, which by verbal disputation they began.  
The dispute betwixt Michael and the Archangel, with the Devil about the body of Moses, mentioned in the 9 of Judas, 
i Jacob. Salianus Anno Mundi 2583. 329. ante Christi not. anno 1440. p. 310. col. 1.  for antiquity hath the precedency of all others; and though some take it in a figurative sense, the most and best expositors understand it literally: yet there is great difference what was the difference betwixt them; Judas saith the subject of it, was the body of Moses; and about that, that chief controversy was whether Moses body should be so buried, that no man should know of his Sepulchre, as it is said, Deut. 34.6. Why his buriall-place should be concealed, the reason which hath the best ground, and most concurrent consent is, because he was so worthy and renowned a man, so much honoured by God and man while he lived, that, considering the people of Israel's proneness to Idolatry, his body was like to be made an Idol by them: wherein he gainsaid the Angel, as if he were zealous for the honour of Moses, though he might intent his dishonour by contemptuous abuse of it by his enemies. But is it not said that he died on Mount Nebo, (which is the top of Pisgah, whence he saw the Land of Canaan, Deut. 34. v. 1, 2, 3, 4.) and was buried in a valley in the Land of Moab, over against Bethptor, Deut. 34.6. Yes, but for all that though he were carried by the Divine power or Ministry of the Angel into the valley and there buried, yet no man saw in what part of the valley his body was interred: But did not the Devil know the place? if so, he might discover it, and act according to the evil ends before rehearsed; so that the answer may be, that if God pleased he could keep it secret from the Devil, if the Devil knew it, he could make him keep it secret; if he were never so desirous to reveal it: and herein as 
k Cum Diabolus revelare & prodere vellet Judaeis ad idololatriā pronis, impeditus est & rohibitus ad Archangelo Michael. Adrichon. Delft. Theatr. terrae Sanctae in tribu Reuben. p. 126. col. 1.3.  I conceive consisted the contestation betwixt Michael and the Devil, that when the Devil would have discovered the Sepulchre of Moses to the Jews, prone to Idolatry, he was prohibited and hindered by the Angel, There is, saith 
“ Inter angelos bonos & malos perpetua disputatio est, etc. Luth. Icom. class. c. 36. p. 100  Luther, a perpetual dispute betwixt the good and the bad Angels; the good Angels propose and promote good things; the bad Angels bad: the good answer all objections, and reprehend them for their Counsels and courses. Another notable disputation with the Devil we read of, Mat. 4. and Luke 4. 
l Ann. Christi. 31. Anno. Christi. 34.  called by some a Monomachy or single combat betwixt our Saviour and him, wherein the question was, whether Christ was the Son of God or no; the Devil was opponent, and Christ the Respondent, as you may read in the two precedent Chapters. By these two examples we are taught two things, for our instruction and imitation, from the former, not to give railing speeches in disputes, Judas, 9 By the other we are directed with what weapon to wage our war, (viz.) the word of God. But my historical narrative I shall make up of mere humane examples; beginning first with the Protomartyr Stephen, in the History of the Acts of the Apostles, 
m Bucolzer. Ind. Chron. p. 135.  which containeth the memorable persons and passages of the Church, for the space of twenty six years, beginning at the ascension of Christ, and ending at his 59 year, and the 4. of Nero, there, viz. Act. c. 6. v. 9 We read that there arose certain of the Synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and them of Cilicia and of Asia disputing with Stephen; the 
n Thema disputationis est, a Jesus Nazarenus sit verus Messiah, etc. Stephanus affirmat ita esse, neganti proferuntur argumenta in medium contra sententiam Stephani, verum is ea ita refringit, etc. Centari, l. 2. c. 12. p. 648.  Centur. Magdetur genses, set forth this disputation in a formal manner, setting down, first the Theme or argument of their disputation, or question, viz. Whether Jesus Christ be the Messiah foretold by, the Prophets and whether all things foretold of the Messiah by the Prophets, may be applied to and were fulfilled in him, and the works recorded of him. Stephen affirmeth, they deny; they propose their arguments, Stephen refuteth them etc.  
Paul, as himself confesseth to God, Acts 22.20. When the blood of the Martyr Stephen was shed, he was standing by and consenting to his death, and kept the raiment of them that flew him; and they slew him by stoning him, Acts 7.59. but God, by that hardhearted cruelty, and Stephen's Patience, Charity, and Piety, and the divine power concurring together, was occasional and causal for his conversion, and after that he became a zealous Champion for Christ and his truth, and disputed for it and him as Stephen did, for he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians, Acts 9.29. in the Synagogue of the jews, and with devout persons, and in the Market daily with them that met him, Acts 17.17. and c. 19 he disputed daily in the School of one Tyrannus, Acts 19.9. Whether this Tyrannus were a Prince or some potent man of rule and authority who founded the School, and allowed it for the exercise of Scholastical disputations, or a particular person, the Master of the School, whose name was Tyrannus; and whether a teacher of Philosophy or Rhetoric, and whether converted by Paul, he were willing he should make use of his School for propagation of the Gospel among his Scholars and others who might have recourse unto him there (the affirmative whereof are the most probable opinions of the most approved expositions) I dare not determine; but there is no doubt but he was so enabled by humane learning and divine assistance to manage a controversy in the cause of Christ, against all gainsayers, and so zealous to advance it unto victory, that he pretermitted no opportunity of pleading for it, either by preaching or polemical contestation. The story of Paul for such particulars is 
o Pauli curriculum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 delineabimus, cumcerta annorum distinctione destituamur. Bucolz. chron. p. 136.  not noted with such a certain distinction of years in the Scripture, that we can as punctually say when, as of what, with whom, and where he disputed, but that we may know that all his disputations were acted betwixt the 35. year of Christ (
“ Ibid.  when Stephen was stoned, and Paul was converted) and the 68 year 
p Helvic. chronol. p. 86.  when he was martyred.  
After the Apostles time, as heresies begun to spring faster and spread further, so there were no doubt many conflicts betwixt Christians and Heretics, besides the controversies with Jews and Pagans, especially such as pretended to learning, whether as Philosophers, Rhetoricians, and Politicians: And when we read the refutation of their errors in justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Epiphanius and others, we cannot but conceive in probality of reason, that they had many personal disputes with their adversaries, though we find them not upon record, or if we did we would not put ourselves or the Reader to such pains to rehearse them all, conceiving it sufficient to select a competent number of such as are of special note; As that of 
“ Ann. Christi 150. Justin. Martyr. Dial. cum Tryphone. à p. 217. ad 371. Graecolat. Paris. 1636.  justine Martyr with Tripho a jew, held at Ephesus; wherein justine maintaineth against the jew, that the Christian Religion doth not lean to fables, but resteth on demonstration full of the Spirit of God; and that Christians, though they observe not circumcision, nor the jewish holy-days, and other ceremonies, they are not therefore transgressors of the Covenant of God: the rest and the greatest part of the dispute is spent in defending the true Doctrine of the person and offices of Christ, against all jewish cavils, and concluded with a reproof of their gross ingratitude to God, in worshipping the golden Calf; after innumerable blessings and miraculous mercies showed to them, 
Ann. 206.  their great impiety in offering their Sons and Daughters unto Devils, their kill of Christ, persecution of Christians, and practise of polygamy; for all which he exhorteth the Jews to hearty repentance. Minutius Felix, 
q Minutius Felix insignis causidicus. Hierom. Tom. 1. p. 229. causidic. Rom in. fori. Ib. Tom. 3. p. 322.  a famous Lawyer of the Court of Rome, as Hierome calleth him, 
r This Dialogue is in the 9 Tom. Biblioth. Patr. à. col. 1. ad. 22.  published a disputation dialogue wise betwixt Octavius a Christian, and Cecilius an Heathen; Octavius shows the absurdity, cruelty, and impiety of the Heathen Religion, and justifies the Christian against the opinion of Cecilius, & the Scandals put upon Christians by the Heathens, 
s Quasi. Christiani monstra colerent, infants convivia incerta vorarent. Ib. Minut. Felix. col. 16.  as if they did worship Monsters, devour infants, and mingled incest with their banquets: But this dialogue (though taken by some learned men for an Historical truth) seems rather to be a personated dispute made by Minutius himself, than a real concertation betwixt any persons so named, wherein, as Lactantius conceiveth, that learned Lawyer declares how fit an assertor of the truth he 
t Declarat quam idoneus assertor veritatis esse potuisset si se totum ad id studium contulisser Lactan. justit. l. 5. c. 2. p. 401.  might have been if he had wholly addicted himself to the endeavour thereof. 
u Anno. 226. Hierom Apolog. adversus Ruffinum Tom. 2. operum p. 224.  Hierome makes a report of a Dialogue or dispute betwixt Origen and Candidus a defender of the Valentinian Here sie, wherein (saith he) me thinks I see two blind, or dark 
w And abatae qui nocte vel qui cl●usis ocalis pugnant. Erasin. chil. ad. p. 624 col. 2. and p. 685. col. 1.  Andabatas fight together: the Valentinians say he Son is of the substance of his Father, but withal asserts that he was sent from his Father with a Celestial body (for that was the error of 
x Alphonsus de castro advers. heres. lib. 4. col. 266. Anno. 226.  Valentinus;) on the contrary part Origen according to Arius and Eunomus, denies his begetting or generation from the Father, lest he should divide the Father into parts.  
Archelaus Bishop of Mesopotamia wrote a book in the Syriack-Tongue, of his disputations against a Manichaean Heretic going out of Persia, which was translated into the Greek, and was in many men's hands in 
y Hieronymus Tom. 1. operum p. 294. Anno 277.  Hieromes time, but now is lost, as 
z Baron. Annal. Tom. 2. An. 277. parag. 14.  Baronius thinks; this Archelaus flourished near the Emperor Probus his time, who succeeded Aurelianus and Tacitus: But the errors of the Manichees remain still upon 
a Aug. de haeres. ad quod vult Deum Haesee. p. 46. Tom. 6. p. 24.  record, they are many and gross, as Austin and 
b Epiphan. 1.2. Tom. 2. p. 149. precip. p. 155. Ann. 315.  Epiphanius report them; the principal was that of their two contrary principles, the one good, the other bad, both eternal; and so was most likely to make one part of the dispute.  
There was at the City of Nice a notable disputation 
c Niceph. Callist. Eccl. Hist. l. 8. c. 15. p. 379.  betwixt one who was a skilful Logician and learned Philosopher, by nation a Greek, who confiding in his art and eloquence infulted over the orthodox Christians, but was undertaken and taken down by Spiridian an old man, who confuted and converted him: about that time was Arius disputed with and confuted by the Council of Nice: there is question made whether Arius were at the Council or no, which is discussed by 
d Scultetus medul. Patrum. p. 1. p. 467. Anno. 349.  Scultetus, and the affirmative proved by him against them that deny it.  
Athanasius had a solemn dispute with Arius at Laodicea, which is set down 
e Tom. 2. operum Graecolat. à col. 66. ad. 394.  as a Trialogue, or a tripartite discourse betwixt three persons, Athanasius, Arius and Probus a Gentile judge, delegated by the Emperor Constantine to oversee and order that affair, and to make report of the passages of it to himself, which was like to be done with disadvantage to the cavilling Heretic, who not able to answer Athanasius prooss, charged him with magical Arts, and there withal fascinating the senses of his judges.  
There was a public disputation appointed by Valentinian the Emperor betwixt Ambrose Bishop of Milan, and Auxentius an Arrian Heretic, who presuming of the favour of justina Augusta an Arrian, challenged the Bishop to dispute, who refused the challenge, and rendered his reasons thereof to the Emperor; 
Anno. 386.  which you may read 
f In Ambrose his 32. Epist. to Valentin. lib. 2. Tom. 3. p. 121. etc. and in Baron. Annal. Tom 4. add ann. Christi 386. paragraph. 16, & 17. Tom. 4 col. 56.  in the works of Ambrose. 
g Chrysost. in Epist. prior. in Corinth. cap. 1. Homil. 3. Tom. 4. col. 352.  chrysostom maketh mention of a ridiculous dispute in his conceit betwixt a Christian and an Heathen, the question was whether Paul or Plato were more learned; wherein though the Heathen preferred his Plato, the Christian his Paul, yet for humane learning the Christian (as Chrysostom supposed) should have given therein the better to Plato, that so the prevailing by Paul might appear to be not by humane wisdom, but by divine grace.  
The Emperor 
h Possid. in vita. Aug. c. 3. Tom. 1. Gest. Prim. Collat. p. 2. nu. 1 Ann. 412.  Honorius desirous to bring the Donatists to concord with the Catholics, compelled them to a collation or conference; or which purpose he sent Marcellus a Tribune and Notary, to take order for their meeting accordingly; he was, it seemeth, Notary for the Emperor, for the Catholic party had two others, januarius and Vitalis, the Donatists two of their own also, 
Anno. 410.  Victor and Crescentius: of the collation at Carthage, all the the passages, the most solemn part of it in three days make up a just Volume of above 400. pages in 8uo published by Papirus Massonus a Civilian of Paris Anno. 1588.  
Augustine, when he was converted from Manicheisme to true Christianity, became a vigorous and zealous Champion for the truth; and both by his tongue and pen had many disputations with many sorts of Heretics, as Arrians, Donatists, Manichees, Originists, Polagians, Priscillians; it is hard to sort them in the several years, with exact accommodation to the years of Christ, but the most of them were acted from the 43. year of his age to the 
i Bucolzer. Index. chronol. ad ann. 430. p. 231.  77. when he died: we shall have occasion to make observation of some of them in the next Chapter.  
Arnobius the younger 
k Bell. de eccls. Script. p. 208.  wrote a book of this title, 
Ann. 460.  The conflicts of the Catholics with Serapion, concerning the Trinity, and the Unity of two substances in the single person of Christ; which it is like, had their passage in alternate turns of objections and answers, after the manner of disputation, not much before this time.  

l Tom. 3. conc. p. 853. col. 1. Severiani à Severo exorti vinum non bibunt. quod fabulosa vanitate de Satana & terra germinasse asserant vitem: carnis resurrectionem cum veteri Testamento respuunt. Aug. Tom 6. de haeres. Quod vult Doumhaeres. 24. Tom. 6. p. 16. Anno. 645.  There was a collation or disputation held at Constantinople, 
Anno 531.  in the time of justinian the younger, betwixt the Catholics and Heretics called S●verians; whose heresy was, that by a sabulous vanity they condemned the use of wine, as supposing the Devil begat the vine of the Earth: they denied also the resurrection of the body, and all the old Testament.  
In the 
m Concil. Tom. 4. p. 624.  fourth tome of Counsels, we find a disputation set down betwixt Pyrrbus Patriarch of Constantinople, and Maximus a learned Monks; the Patriarch was a Monothelite, holding but one will in Christ; whereas Christ being God and man, and so having two natures, he must needs have two wills, one as he is God, another as he is man, for else he were not perfect God and perfect man: this twofold will we find Luk. 22.42. Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me, nevertheless not my will but thine be done: for this Maximus pleaded against Pyrrbus as a Monothelite, who held that he had but one will, and that was divine; I speak the more distinctly of this heresy, because it is known to few what it is, to fewer how it is to be confuted.  
About the observation of Easter there hath been much controversy in the Church many years ago; as in the year 196. the Christians in Asia 
o See Euseb. Eccles. Hist. lib. 5. c. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24. Sethus Calvis. chron. p. 485. c. 2.  out of a tradition of john the Evangelist kept the Feast of Easter, upon the 14. day of the month, as Exod. 12.6, 7. What day of the week soever it was, other Christians in Europe, kept it only that day when our Saviour risen from the dead, and this as by a tradition from Saint Peter, for which Tenet 
p Eusebius ubi suprà. Ann. 546.  Victer the Bishop of Rome was so hot, that he would have excommunicated the Bishops of Asia for the contrary opinion and practice, but that divers Bishops, especially Irenaeus, wrote unto him, that for a difference of ceremonies and rites, the concord of doctrine and faith should not be broken.  
There was another great dissension at 
q Sethus Calvis, p. 577. col. 2.  Constantinople de termino Pasch. anno 546. But the most famous dispute about that matter was that which 
r B●de Eccles. Hist. gentis Anglor. lib. 3. c. 25. Ann. 664.  Bede reporteth, which was carried on most of all by Coleman (whom some account an Irishman, and some a Scotchman; whereof the cause may be, for that 
s Philip. Ferrarius. p. 177. c. 1.  some call Ireland Scotland) and Wilfred, a Presbyter of Mercia, whose King Oswi was present at the disputation, and gave his vote for the observation of Easter according to S. Peter's order, 
t Ego vobis dico, quia hic ostiarius est ille cui ego contradicere nolo, sed in quantum novi & valeo hujus cupio in omnibus obedire statutis, ne forrè me advenienre ad fores regni coelorum non sit qui reserat, averso illo quiclaves tenere probatur. B●dae Ecclesiast. Hist. lib. 3. c. 25. p. 139.  upon goodly reason, Because Peter (saith he) is the keeper of Heaven gates, whom I will by no means contradict, but as much as in me lieth I will obey all his statutes, lest when I come to the gates of Heaven there be none to let me in, he being averse who keeps the Keys.   

2. Section of examples from Luther to the present age.  
From the time last noted Antichrist grew up apace towards his achme; and when he attained to a predominancy of power, the course was according to the Council of Gerson, cited in the precedent Chapter, rather to out down Heretics (as the Papists call all that are not Popishywith the Sword, then to dispute with them by word, until Luther (stirred up by the Indulgences of Pope Leo the 10. and the covetous and blasphemous selling of them by Tecelius) opposed rather the corrupt practice of the Court of Rome, than the erroneous Religion of the Church of Rome. 
Anno. 15●8.   
His first disputation against it was at Heidelberg in the Cloister of the 
u Melchior. Adam. in vita Luther. p. 108.  Augustinian Monks, which is now called the College of wisdom, and it was of justification by Faith: at that Disputation Bucer was present, who with a quick hand wrote what Luther delivered, which he communicated to Beatus Rhenanus with much praise and applause on Luther's part. 
Ann. 1519.   
That year 
w Bucolz. Index chron. p. 476.  there was a disputation at Lipsia betwixt Luther and Eccius about the primacy of the Pope, Penance, Purgatory, and Indulgences; and betwixt Corolstadius and Eccius about free will.  
After several Treaties in several places in Germany, 
Anno 1530.  seven Catholics and seven Protestants were chosen to confer together, to find out a means of composition; who not being able to agree, the number was restrained to three apiece: and though some few small Points of Doctrine, and other petty things (belonging to some Rites) were agreed on, yet in conclusion it was perceived, that the conference could produce no concord at all, because neither party was willing to grant to the other any thing of importance. 
Anno 1541.   
The 
x Sleyd. Com. lib. 13. p. 279.  Emperor Charles V proposed a Colloquy to the Protestant Princes, to be held at 
y Ibid. l. 14. p. 281.  Ratisbone, betwixt Julius Pelagius, John Eccius, John Gropperus, chosen for the Papists; Philip Melancthon, Martin Bucer, and John Pistorius for the Protestants.  
To them was delivered a Book by Granvell, given to Caesar, as he said, by some good man; the Heads whereof he would have them to consider, which were, Of the Creation of Man, and his Integrity of Nature before the Fall, Of , Of the cause of Sin, Of Original Sin, Of Justification of a sinner, Of the Church, Signs, and Authority thereof, Of the Word, Repentance, Of the Authority of the Church in Interpretation of Scripture, Of Absolution, Matrimony, Of the Sacraments, Of Order, Of Images, The Mass, Administration of Sacraments, Of Discipline of the Church, Ministers and People. 
Eccius erat impatiens atque morosus, nam & librum fastidiebat, & collegas minime probabat qui egerant rem diligenter, & reconciliarunt multa, nec illa quidem levia doctrinae capita. Ibid.  In this Colloquy Eccius shown himself impatient and froward, and disdained the Book, and disliked his Colleagues: yet they handled the matter diligently, and reconciled some Heads of Doctrine of no small moment. 
Anno 1546.   

b Sleyd. Com. l. 16. p. 353, 354.  Caesar renewed the Disputation at Ratisbone, but with other Speakers on both sides, except only Martin Bucer. The Points to be argued on were the same, the same Precedents and Notaries chosen, two on each side; and withal, an Oath was required, That nothing should be revealed of the matters in conference, before it were imparted to Caesar, and States of the Empire: which the Protestant Disputants could not agree unto, because their Princes had required of them from time to time to write unto them, how things proceeded in the Colloquy: Whereupon is was soon after broken up.  
About that time,  

c Melch. Adamus in vita Fred. Mycon. à p. 171, ad 175.  Fredericus Myconius disputed with John Tecelius the Pope's Factor for sale of Pardons; betwixt whom, the Question was not about the lawfulness or validity of them, but about the selling of them: For Myconius would have had a Pardon a free-cost, but Tecelius would not allow him one upon such easy terms, and so he was without one. 
Anno 1549.   

d Fox Martyr, vol. 2. p. 756. col. 2.  Mr. Fox said, he had so many Disputations in his hands, and some of them so long, as all together would make a Volume. And he setteth down at large Peter Martyrs Syllogistical Disputation against Transubstantiation at Oxford 
e Ibid. à p. 760 to 778. ; and three Disputations held at Cambridge the same year: That of Peter Martyr is noted by Sleydan also, and well approved of.  
There was a Conference at Poisy in France, in the time of Charles IX. 
Anno 1560. French Hist. p. 737. see of this disput. Peter Mart. 54 Epist. which is to Bullinger, p. 154. Counc. of Tren. Anno 1561.  which began the 9 of Septemb. and was finished about the 5 of Novemb. 
f Bucolz. Chron. p. 602.  Bucolzerus saith, it was betwixt the Cardinal of Lorain and Theodore Beza. 
g The Hist. of the Counc. of Tr. l. 5. p. 453, 454.  The History of the Council of Trent saith, there was with him Peter Martyr, and that these two were the chief. The 
h French Hist. of Serres, p. 737  French History, besides them, nameth Augustine, Marlorat, Francis of S. Paul, Raymond, and John Viril, with others, to the numbar of 12 Ministers, and 22 Deputies of the Protestant Churches, who offered a Petition to the King at his first entry, To examine the Confession of their Faith; That the King would be Precedent with his Council; That the Clergy being parties, should not take upon them the Authority of Judges; That all Controversies might be determined by the Word of God; That two Secretaries chosen on either side might examine the Disputations that were daily written; and that they should not be received, but signed by either part. These conditions, with little difference, are set down both in the French History, and the History of the Council of Trent, in the places sore-noted: but in other particulars their Observations are different, though not dissentient. 
i Hist. of the Counc. of Trent ib. l. 5. p. 451.  The Cardinal of Lorain likewise desired the King's presence in the public Assembly, that it might be more frequent and adorned, to make ostentation of his worth, promising himself a certain victory. Many of the Divines would have persuaded the Queen not to suffer the King to be present, that those tender years might not be envenomed by pestiferous Doctrine: but he was present, and in a short speech, as he was instructed, made an Exhortation to correct the things that were amiss, desiring they should not departed till all differences were composed. Before they entered into open Conference, the Cardinal of Lorain would treat privately with Beza, before the Queen, Mother; and having heard him, especially upon the Lord, Supper, 
k Serres French Hist. ubi ante.  I am greatly contented, said he, with it; and hope assuredly, that the issue of this Conference will be happy, proceeding with mildness and reason.  
Afterwards, when the Cardinals of Lorain and Turnon endeavoured to make delays in the Conference, the Queen bade Beza begin; who having prayed upon his knees, and deprecated the imputations of turbulence and sedition from himself and his party, he declared in what they did agree with the Church of Rome, and in what they did descent, touching Faith, Good Works, Authority of Counsels, of Ecclesiastical Discipline, Obedience to Magistrates, of the Sacraments, and entering into the matter of the Eucharist: But he spoke with such heat, (saith 
l Hist. of the Council of Trent, 1.5. p. 452.  the Author of the Trent History) as gave little satisfaction to them of his own party, but provoked the Prelates to high disdain and indignation. The Congregation being assembled again, the Cardinal of Lorain made a long Oration, concluding, when any particular Church is in an error, recourse must be had to the Church of Rome, The Decrees of General Counsels, Consent of the ancient Fathers; and above all, to the Scripture expounded in the sense of the Church. When he had made an end, all the Bishops stood up, and said, If the Protestants will subscribe to this Article, they will not refuse to dispute the rest: but if not, they ought not to have any more audience, but to be chased out of the whole Kingdom. Beza asked leave to answer presently: but it seemed not fit to equalise a private Minister to so great a Prince Cardinal; and so the Assembly was dissolved. The Prelates were willing that the Colloquy should have been that ended; but the Bishops of Valence told them it was dishonourable. Therefore on the 24 day it was again assembled in presence of the Queen and Princes, wherein Beza spoke of the Church, Conditions, and Authority thereof; Of Counsels, Of the dignity of the Scriptures: So the History of Trent hit the 
m Serres History of France p. 738.  French History that day; Beza made answer to the Cardinal, and disputed with Espenceus and Saints: and v. 26. he treated with him again of the Lords Supper; the other Ministers likewise replied to some Objections of other Doctors of the Sorbon, and finally all was converted into private Conferences, without any resolution or conclusion that might end these troubles.  
By the appointment of Sigismu●d King of Poland, 
Anno 1566.  there was a Disputation appointed betwixt the new Arrians, and those who professed the contrary Faith unto them, at Petricovia in Poland. Here there was somewhat to do about Presidentship, whether there should be one or more; which was resolved, that by turns one of each should preside: and being Papists who managed the dispute against the Arrians, they chose him for the Scribe who had been a Scribbler against Calvin for his 
n Calv. Opuse. p. 682, 683, 684. ad fratres Polonos.  Epistles ad fratres Polonos. The Arrians would not yield to say Amen to the prayer of their opposites, because they would not acknowledge a God in Trinity of Persons. After this they soon broke off without any fruit of their Conferences, as 
o Possevin. Biblioth. Select. Tom. 1. c. 13. p. 363. Anno. 1572.  Possevine, who setteth down the dispute, reporteth.  
From that year to 1590., 
p Ant. Possev. Apparat. Sacer vol. 1. p. 480.  Possevine gives a List of 21 Disputations of several Popish Points, held in several Popish Universities; but they were but such Disputations as Bellarmine's at Rome, without a personal opponent; or if with one, not real and serious, but only personated.  
Stanislaus Roscius, 
Anno 1574. Melch. Adam. in vita Bullingeri. p. 502.  as I have observed in the 1 Chapter, that he may reproach the Religion of the Protestants for want of unity, allegeth, That from the Disputation at Lipsia, Anne 1519. to their Synod in Vilna, 1590. they have had above 100 Meetings, Conferences, Disputations, Counsels and Synods, and yet cannot reconcile themselves to one another; wherein he showeth himself a malicious and slanderous Papist: and to speak with reference to 
r Ferrar. Lexic. Geogr. p. 432. col. 1. fin.  Vilna in Sarmatia a chief City of Lithuania in Poland, where Roscius was an Abbot; it was at Vilna where the Jesuit 
s Bucolz. chron. p. 778. Anno 1584.  Scarga rang the Bell to a Parisian Massacre of the Protestants of that City, where for their too good agreement in the truth in their conceits, they would make them agree in tribulation for it under their remorseless cruelty: though I confess the dissension I find in divers of their meetings is so much, that I am loath to mention them.  
Betwixt these two Chronological terms, 
Anno 1586. Biblioth. Paru. Tom. 1. Graec. & Lat. à p. 194, ad 272.  there was published a dispute betwixt Gregentius Archiepisc. Tophrensis (so he is called) with Herbanus a Jew; wherein Gregantius argueth copiously and vigorously for the Christian against the Jewish Religion.  
Philip Mornay Lord of Plessies, Governor of Saumur, 
Anno 1600. Joh. de Serres gen. Hist. of France, much augmented out of approved Authors, by Edw. Grims. p. 1052.  accused by the B shop of Eureux to have committed 500 falsehoods in his Book against the Mass, presented a Petition to K. Henry IU. That his Majesty would be pleased to appoint Commissioners to examine every passage of Scripture cited in his Book. The King yielded to his motion, and on the fourth of May appointed a Conference betwixt them, which began that day in the great Hall at Fountainbleau: Who were the Commissioners, and in what equipage they were placed there, is fully set down in the general History of France, written by John Serres in the Reign of Henry IU. B fore the Disputation began, it was declared, That it should not bring into debate matters of Doctrine of either Religion, but only be confined to the Exceptions of the Bishop, and the Answers of the Lord Mornay made unto them: Who first promised in the general, 
Ibid.  that" his hope was, That when he should be equally examined, all men should find, that he had carried himself faithfully and diligently; although it were not to be held strange, if in five thousand passages or more, they have found some wherein his eye, his memory, or his judgement hath wavered. Oh, said he, that the Books of the Roman Church which have been written within this hundred years were examined with this rigour! how many should you find that could endure this Trial? Finally, he professed, that, with his Majesty's leave, this act was particular, and could not prejudice the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches of that Realm, which had been before him, and should be after him. And so they entered into the matter. 
“ French Hist. p. 1053.  But after the first days debate Mornay fell very sick, so the dispute in that manner proceeded no further. Whereof we shall speak more in the next Chapter.  
The Disputes of Peter de Moulin with the Jesuits and other Papists in France, are too many to be brought into this Catalogue, wherein I desire to be brief: as also those of D. Featly, our acute Countryman, both in England and in France.  
Anno 1603. was the Conference or Disputation at Hampton Court before King James: The 
w The first days conference at Hampton Court, p. 1, 2.  parties of opposite opinions were on the one side the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishops of London, Durham, Winchester, Worcester, St. david's, Chichester, Carlisle, and Peterborough; the Deans of the Chapel, Worcester, Westminster, Paul's, Chester, Windsor, with Dr. Field, and Dr. King Archdeacon of Nottingham: and on the other, Dr. Reynolds, Mr. Spa●k●, Mr. Knewstubs, and Mr. Chaderton, Agents for the Millenary plaintiffs, as Dr. Barlow Dean of Chester (the partial Penman of that Conference) calleth them; not that they were Chiliasts or Millenaries, as many are by a mistaken sense of Revel. 20.6. but because they agreed much with them who exhibited a Petition to the King with the Subscription of a thousand Ministers. The matters disliked or questioned, were reduced by Dr. Reynolds the Foreman, to these 
* Ibid. p. 23.  four Heads.  
First, that the Doctrine of the Church might be preserved in purity, according to God's Word.  
Secondly, that good Pastors might be planted in all places to preach the same.  
Thirdly, that Church government might be sincerely ministered, according to God's Word.  
Fourthly, that the Book of Common-prayer might be fitted to more increase of piety.  
Doctor Francis Writ had two Disputations with Fisher the Jesuit; 
An. 1622.  the latter of them in the presence of King James. With the same Jesuit Dr. Laud then Bishop of St. D●vids had a dispute also, which are printed, together with Dr. Whites Reply to Jesuit Fishers Answer, 
An. 1624.  and the four days Conference betwixt the Jesuit and his opposites appointed by the State; and of Dr. Reynolds with Mr. Hart, all in the Tower of London, and published at large in print, I desire rather to commend to the rending of a judicious Protestant, than to abbreviate any thing out of them.  
Of later times, especially since we have been divided into so many Sects, we have had (though the Military Sword, God be thanked, be sheathed) a great deal of Word war; many presumptuous Challengers to public dispute, and some too temerarious undertakers of them: whereof divers are in print, and some as worthy are not printed, as that of yours and Dr. Grew's encounter with Mr. Kiffin and Mr. Knowls at Coventry. These I purposely forbear, because they are many, and the most of them are of one and the same Argument, the Baptism of Infants.  
I will conclude this Chapter with a few necessary Admonitions to all true Christians.  
First, since in all Age's Truth hath met with many enemies, that they do not content themselves with a bare knowledge or belief of it; but that they endeavour to be so enabled to plead for, when adversaries rise up against it, that they may stand up, and stand out in opposition to them: and so may not only be able earnestly to contend for the faith (once delivered to the Saints, jude 3.) but manfully to defend it.  
Secondly, out of the precedent examples we may draw instruction for our direction, how to carry on a dispute, when upon just cause we are to undertake it, as by that of Michael disputing with the Devil. We may be cautioned against contumelious speeches against our Antagonist: for he, when he disputed with the Devil about the Body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, Judas 9 And from our Saviour's encounter with Satan, we may be directed with what weapon, chief, to manage our spiritual warfare, even with the sword of the spirit, the word of God, as he did; and therewith put his enemy to flight. From the passionate excesses of some Disputants observed in this Catalogue, we may be admonished of moderation and meekness of spirit; that by suffering our passions to become rampant, we make not our Judgements to be couchant. Other particulars I shall make use of, especially in prosecution, and completing of the sixth Chapter, when I come unto it.    

CHAP. V Of the various Issues and Successes of Conferences, Colloquies and Disputations about matters of Religion.  
IT is the observation of 
y Aug. Thuan. apud Melch. Adam in vita Pet●i Boquini, p. 146. Lorinus in Act. Apost. cap. 9 v. 29. at. p. 422. Possev. Bibliot. select. tom. 1. c. 13. p. 365.  divers learned man, that conflicts in matters of Religion have for the most part been fruitless of good effects, and sometimes that they have brought forth much evil fruit. For example: The Collation, Conference or Disputation of Catholics with the Donatists, though it were fairly carried against them, and that by the Testimony of the Judge, who was constituted as Moderator in the cause, yet they would not acknowledge themselves convinced; and when the sentence of the Judge was produced against them, they raised a slanderous report against him and their Antagonists, 
z Dicunt judicem fuisse proemio corruptum. Aug. Collat. cum Donatist. tom. 7. part. 1. p. 726.  as if they had corrupted him with bribes to pass an honourable sentence on their side: which occasioned Augustine to write a Confutation of them after the public Collation with them.  
And in his particular Disputation with Poscentius a Nobleman, and an Arian Heretic; when he was shamefully foiled, he vaingloriously gave out, 
a Aug. ab ipso superatum Aug. Epist. Poscent. Ep. 174. tom. 2. p. 898.  that he had gotten the victory of Augustine. But the Examples of our own State and later times may be more for our instruction and caution: And we have but too good proof of very bad effects of Conferences or Disputations with Papists; 
b So in the Dean of Paul's and Dean of Windsor's Epistle before the Report of the Conference with Campian, printed ann. 1583.  as in the year 1581. when Campian that Thrasonical Champion of the Romish Church, of whom we have made mention before, when discovered by his Antagonists to be a man of confident undertake, and impotent performances, yet Reports and Pamphlets were spread abroad every where by his party, as though Campian, like some great Bear or Lion, had shaken his Adversaries off, like cowardly Curs one after another.  
What followed upon the disputes with the Jesuit Fisher, and a third with Dr. Laud, the Bishop of Saint david's, with the same 
c Of Doctor Whites reply to the Jesuit Fisher, p. 8, 9  Fisher, Dr. White showeth in his Epistle to the Reader, in these words, His Majesty had experience of the unfaithful dealing of Pontificians, when they make relation of such things as pass by word of mouth only in private Disputations; and he well understood how the Cretizing Jesuit had dealt with a reverend Bishop, and with myself; for had we been Schoolboys of thirteen years old, he could not have made us seem more childish and unskilful than he did; dispersing hundreds of papers to his own praise, and to our disgrace.  
But such lying reports will, at long running, turn to the disgrace of those that divulge them: and that the more, by how much they are the more notoriously untrue; as that fiction of theirs of D. Featly his dispute with the same Fisher, who was such a busy & pragmatical Jesuit, as to be found fishing for silly souls in many places: With him the Doctor being drawn to dispute (by one Mr. Bugs, who in his sickness was solicited to set up his rest for salvation in the Romish Religion) and the dispute ended: 
(d) The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own net by Doctor Featly, in the Preface to the Relation of the conference, June 27. An. 1623. p. 3.  About a week after the Earl of Warwick, who was present at it, having occasion to pass over the Seas, and coming to Saint Omers, had the company of Doctor Weston at his Inn, to whom this Doctor, taking the Earl for a Roman Catholic, told for fresh and most happy news out of England, That at a conference betwixt Father Fisher and Weston, sweet Jesuits, and two Protestant Ministers, the Jesuits had quitted themselves so well, and the Catholics Faith prevailed so far, that two Earls, and one hundred others of the auditory were joined to the Church of Rome with this encounter of those two Earls. The party to whom he spoke, was one who could not but smile at this relation; for there 
* Ibid. p. 6.  were not near an hundred of both parties in all at the conference, whereof twenty were professed Papists, and known Recusants; and for the rest, which were Noble men, Gentlemen, and Gentlewomen of quality, with some few Divines, there was not any one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting: but on the contrary, they have openly professed that they were much established and confirmed in the Protestant Religion by it; and Mr. 
Doctor Featlys Refutation of an Answer to the Book entitled the Fisher, etc. p. 130.  Bugs himself, whose satisfaction by this conference was principally intended, who before had doubted of our Church, gave thanks after the Disputation to Sir Humph. Lind for the meeting, and assured him that he was well resolved now of his Religion, that he saw plainly it was but the Jesuits bragging without proofs; and whereas formerly by their Sophistical persuasions, be was in some doubt of the Church, he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion, that he doth utterly disclaim the Popish Priest's company, and their Doctrine also.  
Though it be a wicked thing to lie (albeit it were for a good intent, yea, for the glory of God, job 13.7. Rom. 3.7, 8. and no wickedness as such, is matter of laughter, but rather of sorrow) yet they mingle such folly and absurdity with their lying, as the Priests of Baal did with worshipping of their Idol, that they deserve to be derided for it, as they were by the Prophet Elijah, 1 King. 18.26, 27. and the more, because it is frequent with them, and by some of the approved as a pious fraud: but sometimes their malignity produceth sad effects, especially of public disputes; as is observable concerning the Dispute of that Illustrious and Incomparable man, the Lord Morney, as Doctor 
e Illustri & incomparabili viro Domino Philippo Mornayo, etc. Epist. dedicat. praefix. Critic. Sacr.  Rivet calls him, and the Bishop of Eureux at Fountainbleau forementioned; the Noble and Learned Lord confiding in the truth of his Allegations, which were excepted against, as hath been said, wanting the use of his own Library, and forced to make use of his Adversaries Books: they brought him one Book over night of one Edition, another in the morning of another; and withal, as 
f Doctor Sutlives Answer to Parsons, l. 3. c. 12. and out of him Mr. Birkbeck in his Answer to the Antidotist, added to the second Edition of the Protestants Evid. p. 474.  some have written, put a powder into the places quoted, the smell whereof was like to have cost him his life: that he 
g Serres French Hist. Anno 1600. p. 1053.  fell very sick upon the first days conference, so as they could proceed no farther, is testified in the report of their Dispute in the French History; and some of his Adversaries spoke suspiciously of his sickness, as if it were more in his mind then in his Body, being astonisshed with the success of the praludium of that day's Velitation, which 
h Plessaeus attonitus successu praecedentis velitationis apud Gisbertum Voetium de desperata causa papatus, l. 3. sect. 2. p 681. col. 2.  Gisbertus Voetius disproves: and concerning the cause of his disease, he saith nothing of poison, because he takes it from such Authors of the Popish party, as if they knew it to be true, would rather conceal it if they could, then let it come abroad into the world. But the matter is probable enough;  
First, because there are such poisons, as will not only make one sick, but kill him too, though he neither eat them nor drink them; as by anointing the leaves of a book with poison, whereby 
i Berkbeck ex Binfield ubi ante.  Averro is said to have killed Avicen; by poisoning of clothes, arms, seats, saddles, whereof 
k Joh. Mariana de Rege, etc. l. 1. c. 7. p. 67.  Mariana the Jesuit shows many examples in his book De Rege, and Regis Institutiones; yea, a man may be killed by carrying a poisoned Torch: 
l Anno 1574. Carolus Cardinalis Lotharingiae diem obiit non sine suspicione veneni, facis per noctent praelatae pestifero odore cerebro corrupto. Bucolz. Index. chronol. p. 638. ex Thuano.  so was the Cardinal of Lorraine, a great and busy man in the Council of Trent, poisoned with the smoke of a Torch carried before him in the night.  
Secondly, it is not improbable, that some of the Lord Morney or Plesses' enemies might both know that there were such poisons, and where to procure them, and how to apply them; 
Haereticis obstinatis beneficium est quod de hac vita tollantur; nam quò diutiùs vivunt cò plures errores excogitant, plures pervertunt, & ma jorem sibi damnationem acquirunt. Bellarm. Tom. 2. l. 3. de Laicis c. 21. verbis ultimis.  for it seems by that we now noted of the Cardinal of Lorraine (which fell out An. 47.15.) that destructive arts were neither unknown, nor unpractised at that time; and the dispute betwixt the L. M. and the Bishop of Eureux was 26. years after. Any such wickedness is the more probable of a Papist against a Protestant, because of the Popish Doctrine, which is this, it is a benefit for obstinate Heretics to be taken out of this life, for the longer they l●ve, the more errors they invent, and the more they pervert, and procure to themselves the greater damnation. It was not to be expected, but the disputation being broken off by the L. M. his occasion, the Papists would insult and report whatsoever might make for their own glory, and his disparagement, as indeed they did; but how poorly the Popish Bishop began to make good his charge and challenge against the L. M. the learned Reader may see by that which 
m Gisbert. Voetius de desperata causa papatus l. 3. Sect. 2. c. 10. à p. 680, ad 692.  Gisbert Voetius hath written of it in his Book Of the desperate cause of the Papacy, and by the excellent 
n A refutation of calumnious relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis, and Monsieur of Eureux by one against N. D. I. P. 3. part printed by Arn. Hatfield, An. 1600.  Refutation of the Tract set out by the L. M. after the Dispute for his own just defence, to which the Bishop his Adversary 
o Perronus ad illum librum nunquam respondit. Ibid. And this was 35. years after, for Voetius his book was printed An. 1655. and the dispute was An. 1600. and this Apologet. Treat. soon after.  never made any answer.  
But the most certain and remarkable issue or effect of this Dispute was, that 
p Serres French History ad Ann. 1600. p. 1053.  Canoy one of the Commissioners for the Dispute, Precedent in the Chamber of the Edict at Charters, left his profession of the Reformed Religion, and became a Romish Catholic; many thought that Casaubon the other Protestant Commissioner, and Greek Reader to King H. the Fourth, would have followed the same course; but he left not the world long in this opinion, having written to the Synod of Ministers assembled at Gargean, that he was not so wretchedly instructed in piety, as that for want of knowledge of the truth, he should suffer himself to be carried away with every humour of Doctrine.  
The causes of so little good success of Debates, Disputes, Conferences, or Controversies of Religion, betwixt parties of opposite opinions are divers; in some the prevalent power of fancy or imagination above judgement, is the cause, that Arguments, whether artfiicial of reason, or inartificial of testimony, will work little upon prejudicated fancy: of the various working whereof we may read many observable particulars in the learned discourse of Picus Earl of Mirandula, of 
r Jo. Picus Mirandula lib. de imaginatione, vol. 2. operum p. 91. praecip. c. 7, 8, 9  that Title.  
Secondly, With some, custom is a great obstacle against the receiving of truth: and thence it is that those who have been trained up in untruth from their Childhood, are with greatest difficulty convinced of it, or converted from it. We may see the refractoriness of this resistance in Peter, Acts 10. who, when v. 12,13. a vision was presented unto him, showing him several kinds of creatures, clean and unclean, and he had a command to kill and eat, v. 13. Not so v. 14. Lord (said he) why so Peter? he gives this reason of his refusal, though the command came from Heaven; because of his customary forbearance of forbidden meats, I have never eaten any thing that is common and unclean.  
Thirdly, With others 
s Prava vel honoris, vel pecuniae cupiditas animos disputantium invasit, ut tanquam in pugna sola spectaretur victoria● Ludov● Vives de causis corrupt. artium, l. ●. p. 38.  a corrupt cupidity of glory or gaint is a great cause of their standing out against clear discoveries; such will not yield to verity, so long as they can with confidence and impudence make any show or appearance of victory, or outface the foil they have taken in dispute.  
Fourthly, Some withstand the truth in unrighteousness, principally out of hatred and disdain of their Adversaries, lest it should be thought, that by them they were brought to yield unto it: this was the humour of the Archbishop and Cardinal of Capua, who would yield to reform nothing, though many corruptions were discovered, 
t Nicol. Archiepis, Capuanus, Magna contentione clamabat ne quid omnino reformaretur, ne Lutherani jactent quasi ab ipsis propemodum adacti illud fecerint. Job. Sl●idan Comment. l. 12. p. 242. An. 1538.  left the Lutherans should brag that they had been brought to reformation by them.  
Fifthly, Some account it their credit to be no changelings, especially in Religion; not knowing the difference betwixt constancy and obstinacy.  
Sixthly, And oft times it falls out, that by the subtlety or eloquence of Disputants, when they are somewhat evenly matched, the Auditory is kept pendulous, or irresolute; even he, perhaps, for whose sake the Dispute or Conference was undertaken, as 
u Ille cujus causa in congressum descendis Scripturarum, ut cum dubitantem confirmes ad veritatem an nagis ad haeresim deverget, hoc ipso motus, quod te videat nihil promovisse aequo gradu negandi & defendendi, certe de pari & altercatione incertior discedit, nesciens quem Haereticum judicet. Ter●ul. prescript. advers. haereticos Tom. 1. c. 18. p. 170.  Tertull. showeth; He, saith Tertullian, for whose cause thou descendest into a Controversy of Scripture, that thou mayst confirm him against doubting, it is hard to say whether he tend more to Verity or to Heresy, because he sees thou prevailest nothing, the dispute going on in an equal degree of denying and defending: certainly by such a parity in altercation he will departed more uncertain, not knowing what he should judge to be Heresy.  
Seventhly, When Conferences and Disputations in Religion succeed not so well as good men would have them, is, because they are not ordered or managed in such a manner as they should be; whereof I shall speak in the next Chapter, as in its proper place. In the mean time this good order will require, that I now observe, what good success hath been the issue of some disputations betwixt Michael and the Devil in jude, Christ and the Devil, Matth. 4. By the way, some take Michael the Archangel for Christ's Son, for a created Angel to me it is, which I will now neither determine nor discuss: and for the disputes of Stephen and Paul, they must needs have the better of their adversaries, because they were not able to resist the Wisdom and the Spirit by which they spoke, Act. 6.10. not with any evidence of truth, or appearance of reason: yet when the truth was most illustriously set forth, some were so blinded and hardened with their own malice and envy, that they could not see it, or would not confess themselves to be convinced by it; is, as when our Saviour had mightily and miraculously proved himself to be the Son of God by casting out Devils, the Devil would not suffer his Adversaries to acknowledge it, but stirred them up to impute the power of the holy Spirit to Beelzebub the Prince of Devils, Matth. 12.24. And when Athanasius had a Disputation with Arius, he would not yield that the power of Truth had prevailed, but 
w Arius in quit nulli dubium est quin magicis artibus Athanasius non desinat judicum pervertere sensus, etc. Athanas. disp. contra Arium Laodiceae, tom. 2. col. 393.  most absurdly suggested, that he managed his cause by Magical Arts.  
Notwithstanding the issues and effects of some Disputations have been more successful (besides those which were carried on by a Divine Power against Humane or Devilish malignity) as that of Octavius a Christian, with Cecilius an Heathen, set forth by Minutius Felix; whereof we have observed before, that some take that for a real story, some for a pious discourse composed by Minutius himself Dialogue-wise, under the borrowed names of 
x Caecilium superstitiosis vanitatibus etiamnum inhaerentem disputatione gravissima ad veram religionem reformavit Octavius: sic Minutius Felix Conclus. Dialog. Tom. 9 Bibliothec. Patrum, col. 22.  Octavius a Christian, and Cecilius an Heathen: the effect whereof, whether it were historical, or poetical, or moral, was such as was answerable to such convincing premises, viz. that Cecilius converted by Octavius from superstitious vanities, they parted with mutual congratulation, and Minutius thereby accounted himself Felix, 
y Post haec laeti hilaresque discessimus; Caecilius quod crediderit, Octavius quod vicerit, ego quod ille crediderit, hic vicerit, Ibid.  rejoicing with and for them both.  

z Euseb. Eccles. Hist. l. 6. p. 32.  Eusebius and 
a Hierom. Catal. Script. Eccles. tom. 1. p. 292.  Hierome make report of Beryllus Bishop of Bostra in Arabia, that he fell from the faith to strange doctrine of the Divinity and Humanity of Christ; but conferring with Origen, was convicted by manifest proof, and recovered to his former sound opinion. The effect of the Dispute betwixt 
b Baron. Annal. tom. 2. ad ann. 277. parag. 16.  Archelaus and Manes was rather the confusion of the Heretic than his conversion; for he run away from his Antagonist when he had convinced him, and would not appear in his sight any more. And though Augustine sometimes wholly lost his labour in conflict with Heretics, who continued contumacious and clamorous against the Truth and him: yet sometimes he was very successful in his Disputations with them; sometimes as Origen was with Beryllus, 
c Aug. fin. l. 2. de Artis cum foelice Manich. tom 6. p. 657.  as when he brought Felix the Manichean Heretic to a Recantation of his Error, and subscription against it: sometimes as Archelaus, when he disputed with Manes, whose foil and flight I have noted in another Chapter: As when having disputed with Fortunatus a Manichean, and 
d Possid. in vit●… Aug. c. 6.  put him to silence, he put him also to so much shame, that he went out of the City of Hippo, and returned thither no more. More might be observed of his good success, either for conversion or victory, but that I must leave a little room for some other memorable Examples of like sort; not to mention that which I had occasion to bring in 
e Ibid. c. 4. ad ann. 325.  before, of a subtle Philosopher and Logician convinced and converted by a plain old man. We may note next the issue of that famous Disputation betwixt Maximus the Monk, and Pyrrhus the Archbishop of Constantinople, about the 
f See cap. 4. ann. 645.  Will of Christ; which was, that the Archbishop gave way to the Truth proposed and proved by Maximus. The issue of the Dispute (betwixt Gregentius a Greek Bishop with Herbanus a Jew) continued about 40 days together, 
g Tom. 1. Bibli. Patrum Graec, Lat. p. 277.  concluded with the conversion of many from the Jews. I will conclude this point of the good success of Disputation with one or two domestick●; the one is of Dr. Reynolds conferring or disputing with Hart in the Tower, who it seems in one point of moment was brought to acknowledge a Protestant Truth, viz. 
h Hart in his Epist. to the indifferent Reader, p. 2. before the Conference.  That the opinion which makes the Pope a Temporal Lord over Kings and Princes, is unreasonable and unprofitable altogether; for he hath not to meddle with them or their civility, much less to depose them, or give away their Kingdoms: that's no part of his Commission. But the Doctrine of 
i Non licet Christianis tolerare regem infidelem aut haereticum, si ille conetur subditos ad suam haeresim vel infidelitatem pertrahere: ad judicare an rex pertrahat ad haeresim necne, pertinet ad Pontificem cui est commissa cura Religionis, ergo Pontificis est judicare regem esse deponendum vel non deponendum. Bellar. de Rom. Pontif. lib. 5. c. 7. tom. 1. p. 351. col. 1.  Bellarmine is, (wherein not only the Jesuits, but other Zelots for the Papacy follow him) That Christians ought not to tolerate an Infidel or Heretical King, if he endeavour to draw his Subjects to Heresy or Infidelity: but to judge whether the King draw his Subjects to Heresy or no, belongeth to the Pope, to whom is committed the care of Religion.  
So that it belongeth to the Pope to try whether he be to be deposed or not.  
But had the learned and religious Doctor prevailed nothing at all with his Adversary, but that Hart had been so hardened in all Popish Errors, as to renounce none of them, as he did what he could by Sophisms and Lies, by Fraud and Falsehood to outface the Truth, as 
k Confer. c. 7. divis. 7. p. 377.  Dr. Reynolds justly chargeth him; yet we cannot but account it an happy effect of their Dispute, that it produced in print so excellent a Book as the Report of that Conference is, so full of all kind of Learning pertinently applied, and meeting with the shuffling shifting Papists at every turn.  
Though in this respect this Conference proved in the issue and effect of it better than was expected, yet it is more strange, and such as the like hath seldom happened, which fell out upon the Dispute of him and his Brother William: 
“ Mr. Fuller's Church-Hist. of Great Brit. l. 10 p. 47. 48.  John Reynolds, Mr. Harts Antagonist, at the first was a zealous Papist, whilst William his Brother was as earnest a Protestant; and afterwards providence so ordered it, that by their mutual Disputation John Reynolds turned an eminent Protestant, and William an inveterate Papist, in which persuasion he died. This gave the occasion to an excellent Copy of Verses, concluding with this Distich:  

Quod genus hoc pugnae est ubi victus gaudet uterque,  
Et simul alteruter se superasse dolet?   

What war is this, when conquered both are glad,  
And either to have conquered other, sad?   
The success of the Dispute betwixt Dr. Featly and Fisher both good and bad, I have observed already in this Chapter. And so much may suffice for the issues and effects of Colloquies, Conferences and Disputes in matters of Religion.   

CHAP. VI How Disputations are to be ordered that the Truth may be cleared; and being cleared, both it and they who plead for it may be secured from reproachful misreports.  
THough nothing be many times more rashly undertaken than a dispute of Religion, yet in nothing is more prudence and caution required than in that, that it may be managed to the best advantage for victory on the Truth's side. And therefore where there is an association of Ministers, it will be agreeable to their goodness and wisdom, to join in a resolution not to enter the Lists of public Disputation with any, though provoked, without a serious consultation of the Brotherhood, to deliberate,  
First, Whether the matter be fit to be disputed or no.  
Secondly, Concerning the persons who are to be actors in it, or present at it.  
Thirdly, What shall be the Laws and Conditions of Dispute.  
First, whether the matter be fit to be disputed or no: 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 31. tom. 1. q. 531.  Gregory Nazianzen propoundeth it as matter of special consideration, that we dispute not of matters which are above the model of our own wits, and the Auditor's apprehension and ability to conceive. The Emperor 
b Sozomen. Histor. Eccles. lib. 7. c. 6.  Gratian would not allow the Arrians to dispute of God, and therefore by an especial Law forbade such Disputations, because the Mystery of the Trinity is a Mystery of Faith far above the reach of Humane Reason. In lower and more 
c De vulgaribus rebus disputantem aliquem vinci minime grauè est; ne que enim omnis est, etc. gravissimum autem est divinitatem detrimento affici, camque sophistis prodere. Elias Cretens. Comment. in Nazianz. orat. 23. tom. 2. col. 852.  vulgar matters for a man to be overcome or graveled, as Elias Cretensis noteth upon Nazianzen, is no great matter, because every one hath not the art of disputing or solving of Sophisms; but it is a sad thing for the Divinity of God or Christ to be disparaged, and as it were to be betrayed into the hands of Sophisters. The Heathens were wary in preserving the reverence of Religion, that they held it 
d Mala & impia consuetudo est contra Deos disputandi, sive ex animo id fit sive simulatè. Cicer. de nature. Deor. lib. 2.  an evil and impious custom to dispute of their gods, whether an adversary or in good earnest.  
Though he who hath this fundamental infidelity in his heart, may be disputed out of his Atheism by secret conference, yet it is no way lawful to enter the Lists of public Disputation with an Atheist, as if it were a problematical point whether there were a God or no; no more meet is it to entertain a public dispute with Antiscripturists, especially now, since his 
e The humble Petition and Advice to His Highness the L. Protector, etc. p. 27, 28, 29.  Highness the Lord Protector, his Council, and the Members of the Parliament, take an Oath To uphold and maintain the true Reformed Protestant Christian Religion in the purity thereof, according to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, and to encourage the profession and professors of the same. Nor will it, as I conceive, be fit to admit the Arminians to a public Dispute, especially of Mr. John Goodwyns fancy or faction; as his absurd and horrible Errors have been lately and lively set forth in their colours by 
f Pag. 65, 66, 67, 68, 69. of his solid and acute Confutation of Mr. Joh. Goodwyns Calumniatory Cavil in his Book which he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or The Triers, etc.  Mr. Marchiamont Nedham. And as it is matter of religious piety to forbear such disputes upon any point as may violate the Majesty of Religion; so I believe it is a civil duty which we own our Superiors, who are pleased to protect Orthodox Religion, not to offer any part of it whereof they take the Patronage, as in the Oath , and without their licence and allowance in such a way as their prudence shall approve of: And it cannot but be matter of great offence and scandal to any prudent and pious Christian, to have any fundamental point of Faith once delivered to the Saints, delivered up to be tossed upon the tongues of men; it may be such as 
g G●eg. Naz. Orat. 33. tom 1. p. 531.  Nazianzen taxeth, as making a sport in a trifling manner to dispute of divine matters. Nor are some questions more to be forborn for their sacred Sublimity, than others for their ridiculous Levity; as, whether according to the 
h Multa renascentur quae jam cecidere, cad●ntque Quae nu●c sunt in honore vocabula, si volet usus; Quem penes arbitrium est, & jus & norma loquendi. Horat. So the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Tyrannus, was anciently taken for a King in a good sense, when Homer called Jupiter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: But for many hundred years ago it hath been taken in an ill sense, Tempore Lucae vocabulum illud Tyrannus tantum accipiebatur in malam partem apud Gaecos & Latino's. Estius Act. Apostol. 19 v. 9 So the word Idiot in Luke's time was taken only for one that is unlearned and ignorant. So Peter and John are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, Unlearned and Idiots, Acts 4.13. And 1 Cor. 14.16. How shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, of the Idiot; and 23. If there come in those that are ignorant and unbelievers, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, Idiots and unbelievers. So the word Knave, in Chaucer's and gower's time, and in the Stat. 1. c. 3. ann. 14 of Ed. 3. signified a servant. See Minshaws Dictionary, verbo Knave: and the French word Madam, is of that latitude in the proper original signification, that any woman that hath a servant, may by her servant be called Madam. Were it not now an unreasonable innovation, to go so far out of the received use of words, as to call a King a Tyrant, an Apostle an Idiot, an honest Servant a Knave, an ordinary Husbandman's wife Madam? The first would be dangerous, the second blasphemous, the third slanderous, the fourth ridiculous, because quite out of use in our manner of speech; as the word Thou is, as applied to Superiors in a civil, or rather by the Quakers in an uncivil sense.  Law of Language, which is a common use, we should say You in civility to our Superiors, or Thou unto all, with those proud, rude and railing Levellers, the Quakers: On whose absurd and novel vanity I will here bestow a marginal Note (h) and no more.  
There is another question of note, but neither for the superlative eminency, nor for the extreme lowness and lightness of it, as that of the Quakers, but for the subtlety, unprofitableness and impossibility to be determined by public and personal disputation; and that is the captious question of the Papists, touching the Visibility of the Church in all Ages: In which point they have made bold Challenges to the Protestants party, who in my poor opinion should rather have disputed altogether against the unreasonableness of the question, than have undertaken the discussion of it, as Dr. Featly did with Fisher: For though he said much very learnedly and wittily after his manner, partly to show the impertinency of the Proposal, to prove the Protestant Church visible in all Ages, and to name visible Professors of Protestant Religion in all Ages; and was very cautelous in his distinctions and assertions, for the framing of his Conclusions to the first question, which was, that 
i The Romish Fisher caught & held in his own Net, part. 1. p. 103.  The Protestant Church, according to the distinctions and assertions premised, hath been in all Ages in some degree visible: And used the like prudential course concerning his Conclusion of the latter question, Of the Names of Protestant professors in all Ages; yet he undertook to give in a Catalogue of them in every Age, beginning with the Evangelists and Apostles, and going on from Clemens Romanus to Clemens Alexandrinus, with whom he makes up his second Century. 
Dr. Featly Romish Fisher caught & held in his own Net, par. 1. p. 8.  Of which question himself confesseth, that it required rather a large Historical Volume, than a brief Syllogistical Dispute. For what time would be required to bring such a Debate to a satisfactory Issue? how many days dispute, how many months, yea how many years will be taken up in distinguishing legitimate Writings of the Ancients, from such as are spurious or suspected for such even by the Papists themselves, who reckon of those ambiguous Brats no fewer than 187 several Treatises? and then for the legitimate works, how many are corrupted, and which Edition of them is the truest? and when that is known, Where shall we find the doctrines in difference betwixt the Papists and us discussed or resolved, when many of them were altogether unknown in their days? For those that speak any thing of the matters in question, it is hard to judge what is their settled judgement in any point; for sometimes they play the Orators, flourishing with all figures of Rhetoric, which must not be taken in a Dogmatical sense; as 
l Dum essem adolescens, imo penè puer— Scripsi ad avunculum, sed in illo opere pro aetate tunc lusimus, & calentibus. adhuc Rhetorum studiis, etc. nunc jam cano capite & arata rugis front, etc. Hieron. ad Nepot. Tom. 1. p. 11. princip. Epist.  Hierome confesseth of himself in his Epistle to Nepotian, While I was a young man, said he, and in a manner a Boy, I wrote unto my Uncle Heliodorus, but in that work I did but play with Rhetorical Studies, and painted my paper with a Scholastical flourish; now my head is grey, and my forehead furrowed, I writ in another manner. Which may give them cause in their elder years, to retract and correct what they wrote when they were not so ripe in judgement being young: So did Augustine in his two Books of Retractions. And some things they have written in passion, violently turning from one extreme to another: So did Dionysius Alexandrinus; and therefore 
m Basil. Episi. 41. Maxim. Philosoph.  Basil compareth him to a Gardener, who when a bough groweth crooked one way, writhes it to be as crooked they other way. And in examining of these humane Testimonies, it will require time and judgement to distinguish particular Opinions from Church-doctrines. Now by that time all assertions in difference have been carried through all Ages, with all the distinctions and cautions until Luther's time, the Protestants bringing their proofs, and the Papists theirs, and time allowed for each party to make Exceptions as they please, how many years will be spent, and at last how fruitless will all this labour be? when if there were such consent to be found among them, as the Papists brag of, it would make but an humane Faith, which might be subject to falsehood, as 
n Quod historici quidam meminerint eorum conciliorum, non potest parere nisi fidem humanam cui potest subesse falsum. Bellarm. lib. 2● Sacr. offic. c. 25. verbo ult. Tom. 3. Contr. p. 86.  Bellarmine confesseth. And yet both the subtle Jesuits, and silly Papists by their Instruction, call for this trial of Religion by bringing a Catalogue of Professors in all Ages; on which the Jesuit Fisher so pertinaciously insisted, 
o The relation of the Conference, Jun. 27. 1623. p. 28.  that he would not answer Dr. Featly touching Christ and his Apostles in the first Century, unless he first brought in a Catalogue of Professors of Protestancy throughout all Ages: And which shown his impiety and absurdity in the highest degree, in the Catalogue called for, he would 
p Ibid. p. 27.  not allow the Doctor to begin with Christ and his Apostles.  
This plainly bewrayed the Jesuits great diffidence in his crazy cause, and his craft to secure it from a due trial, which this way he knew could never be effected: and with this fallacy they have locked up their seduced Proselytes in misbelief; so that we know not how to deal with them: for they will not hear us in any thing, unless we speak to the point of visibility in all ages; and if we offer to answer them in a readier and surer way, by the infallible Testimony of the Scriptures, they will not accept of it: yet notwithstanding all the advantage they have had by the predominacy of their power over Persons, Books & Presses, to print and suppress what they please: we need not decline that way of trial out of any distrust in our cause, since there is yet so much upon record for us, and against them; that if such a tedious and dilatory discussion of our differences were to be undertaken by dispute face to face, they could be no gainers in the utmost issue of it, as we may well judge by Mr. Berkbeck in his Protestants evidences of the second Edition printed this year in Folio, so much amended and augmented above the former in Quarto, that I take it to be the best Book extant in that kind.  
When upon deliberation a resolution is made what shall be disputed on;  
The next consideration is concerning the Persons.  
For the Persons, and they are chief, 

1. Disputants.  
2. Precedents, or Moderators.  
3. Notatories.  
4. Witnesses.  
5. For others, whether admitted by choice, or promiscuously without limitation or exception.    
First for the Disputants; in them these four qualifications are chief requisite: 

1. They must be learned.  
2. Of quick conceit.  
3. Temperate, not passionate, or choleric.  
4. Pious, preferring Verity before Victory.    
First, they must be learned in the Learned Languages, in Arts, and Histories, in Textual and Polemical Divinity; for they may in conflict be put to it, to make use of all the learning they have.  
Secondly, They must be quick in conceit, because they must presently without pause or study take their advantage, either of objecting or answering.  
Thirdly, They must be temperate, not passionate, or choleric like Costerus the Jesuit; for Costerus, of whom Doctor Hall's observation is, 
Dr. Hall. 1. Decad. of Epist. Epist. 5. p. 282.  that he wa● more tasty than subtle, more able to wrangle then to satisfy: for passion will blind the judgement, so as to make a man less fit to make use of his own strength, or to take advantage of his Adversaries weakness; besides, if a man be choleric, it will make him forget the moderation of Michael the Archangel, in forbearing railing accusations, Judas 9 And the caution of 
r Haec est modestia disputantis ut nulla adferatur audientibus ex disserentis sermone molestia: Chrysost. in Epist., ad Hebr. ch. 2. homil. 3 Tom. 4. col. 1679.  Chrysostom, which is, that the modesty of the Disputants should be such, that nothing drop from their mouths which may be offensive to the ears of the hearers, which doth not only give distaste to them, but takes off much from the acceptation both of the Disputant and the cause disputed; one that appeared in Beza's disputation at Poysie, when though he were an excellent learned man, and pleaded the cause of Reformation very sufficiently against the Romanists, was taken up and commanded to conclude; 
s Hist. Conci. of Trent, l. 5. p. 453.  because in the matter of the Sacrament he grew into an heat, which not only very much provoked the Prelates to indignation and disdain against the new Evangelists, as the Cardinal of Tornon called him and his party, but gave ill satisfaction to those of his own side: but this exorbitancy of passion is more familiarly the offence of the Romish wranglers, who are chosen of purpose by their party for Disputants, because of their zeal to the cause, which kindles quickly into choler, as we have partly observed in Eccius and Gretz●r; and may further note in one of Doctor Featleys' Antagonists (Doctor Eglestone) who was so transported with passion, as to say to him, 
t The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net, par. 3. p. 128.  I will be hanged at the next Gallows if I make you not confess that it implies no contradiction, for an accident to be without a subject; if he would have stood to his word, he had been sure to be hanged; for it was not in his power to force the Doctor to such a confession.  
Fourthly, The Disputants ought to be pious, that (out of conscience) they may prefer Verity before Victory. Of this mind doubtless was the Apostle Paul, when he professed he could do nothing against 
u Victoriâ nihil dulcius, Cicer. Act. in verrem, fol. 876.  the truth, 2 Cor. 13.8. to a corrupt and carnal mind nothing is more sweet than victory; but if truth appear to have the preeminence, a godly man will not be ashamed to yield unto it, though with change of his opinion; for he takes not himself to be of so great authority and fame, as to be ashamed that he erred, as 
w Ne erubescas de commutatione sententiae; non es tantae authoritatis & famae, ut errasse te pudeat. Hieron. Apolog. advers. Ruffin. Tom. 2. p. 199.  Hierom said to Ruffinus, do nothing through strife or vain glory, Phil. 2.3. as the Papists did against the Protestants in the Council of Trent, 
x Hist. of the Council of Trent, l. 1. An. 1530.  when as Cardinal Langi Archbishop of Saltzburg said, that the Reformation of the Mass was honest, the liberty of meats convenient; but that a poor Monk, meaning Luther, should reform all, was not to be endured: some conceive it matter of moment, that the Disputants be matched in quality and calling, as in the 
y The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net, p. 3. p. 118, 119.  Disputation betwixt Master Walker and Doctor Egleston.  
Before I dispute upon the question, saith Mr. Walker, I desire to know your quality and calling, whether you be a professed Popish Priest or no?  
Dr. Egleston. I am a Roman Catholic, not a Priest, but a Doctor of Physic.  
Mr. Walker. I desire then another Adversary, some of the Priests here present, that we may dispute on equal terms; I hold the calling of a Protestant Preacher and Divines, more honourable than any Popish Priesthood; and therefore if your Priests think themselves too good to dispute with me, you shall not brag that your Laymen are fit matches to dispute with Protestant Preachers and Divines.  
Dr. Egleston. Mr. Walker, you being a Divine, aught to give me, though a Layman, the best satisfaction you can.  
Mr. Walker, I am ready to give you satisfaction, if you come as a Layman, aught to a Divine, that is, with a desire to hear, and to be instructed in all humility, not with a mind to contradict and oppose the truth.  
And so they proceeded to Disputation, as in the relation quoted in the Margin; and it may be the Doctor of Physic was a better Divine than the Priests that were present.  
Doctor Brian in this respect might have had more just cause of disdain, to take Mr. Only for his match, than Mr. Walker Doctor Egloston, since the disparity was more betwixt them two, then betwixt a Divine that was not a Doctor, and a Doctor that was not a Divine.  
This for the qualification of the Disputants. Now, secondly, for a Moderator, or Precedent, to manage the disputation with decency and order.  
It is requisite that some person of worth for wisdom and gravity (and if it may be also of power and authority, so that his power be not biased by partiality on either side) be Precedent and Moderator to manage the disputation with order and decency, for prevention of vain jangling and confusion: when disputations are national, and particularly authorized by the supreme power; that power commonly makes choice of a Precedent, or of Commissioners to preside over the disputation: so did the Emperor 
z Aug. Breric. Collat. Praefa. Tom. 7. par. 1. p. 684.  Honorius, who published an Edict for disputation betwixt the Catholics and Donatists at Carthage, and by the same Edict ordained one to preside in the disputation, who was called a Judge. So did the Emperor 
a Sleyd. Com. l. 16. p. 353.  Charles in the Conference at Ratisbone. In that at Poysie in France betwixt Beza and the Popish party: Beza and those of his 
b Hist. of the Council of Trent. l. 5. p. 451.  side desired, that the King and his Council would be present to govern the action, with especial exception against the Clergy, that none of them might preside, because they were their professed adversaries; and some of them unwilling that the Protestants should be gratified in that request, would have persuaded the Queen Mother to keep her son King Charles away, lest being young, he should be led away by the plausibility of error. So in the concertation at Fountainbleau, betwixt the Lord Morney and the Bishop of Eureux, King Henry the Fourth was present and Precedent the first day, yet appointed he Commissioners, because himself would not be engaged to attend the debate until it were ended; though he did so, because it broke off after one day by the sickness of the Lord Morney, as hath been said before. In the public Disputations at Oxford and Cambridg, betwixt the Protestants and Papists, in King Edward the sixths' time, certain Commissioners were sent in the name of 
c Fox Martyr. vol. 2. p. 756. col. 2. & 760. col. 2.  Visitors, to the number of five to each University, to oversee the Disputation orderly carried on, and to make report of it to His Majesty. In the three day's conference at Hampton Court, King James himself was Precedent, and it was well he was so, else some of the Prelates would have soon put to silence Doctor Reynolds and his assistants; for when that Reverend, Religious and Learned Doctor did but modestly observe a 
d The second day's conference at Hampton Court. p. 25.  Contradiction in the Service Book about Confirmation, one place confessing it was a depraved imitation of the Apostles, another grounding it upon their example, Act. 8.9. and thereupon desired that the contradictions might be considered, and the ground of conformation examined: the Bishop of London cut him off, and kneeling down, most humbly desired His Majesty that the ancient Canon might be remembered, which saith, Schismatici contra Episcopos non sunt and endi: was there any thing in the Doctor's speech which deserved so sharp a censure, as that for that he should be called a schismatic, & such a schismatic as might not be suffered to speak, because that which he speaks both piously and prudently, is said by a pettish Prelate to be spoken against the Bishops? But had he not cause to be much moved? the partial Penman of that Conference will tell you he had: for 
e Ibid.  some of these men (saith he) the evening before, and the same morning had made a semblance of joining with the Bishops, and that they sought for nothing but unity; but now they struck at their overthrow (if they could) all at once. Episcopacy, or rather Prelacy, surely is like the Apples of Sodom, if such a tender touch of the Doctor would overthrow all at once: But the Doctor and those of his mind, though as peaceably minded as any, should have been overthrown at once, if the King (who acted the office of a Moderator) had not been more moderate, and given some check to the Bishop's choler, 
f Pag. 28.  telling him, he should have suffered the Doctor to have taken his course and liberty; concluding, that there is no order, nor can be any effectual issue of disputation, if each party might not be suffered without chopping, to speak at large what he would; and therefore willed, that either the Doctor should proceed, or that the Bishop would frame his answer to the motions already made. And this is the proper work of a Precedent, or Moderator at a Disputation or Conference.  
Sometimes the power which doth authorise the Dispute, leaveth liberty to the Disputants, by consent, to choose their Precedent or Moderator; So did Sigismond King of Poland to the Trinitarians and Antitrinitarians for their Disputation at Petricovia, 
g Antho. Poss. Biblioth. Sele. Tom. 1. l. 8. c. 13. p. 363.  who after some debate, resolved that the Precedent should be chosen by turns one out of each party.  
I will give you but one Observation more concerning this matter; and it is that memorable one betwixt Ambrose Bishop of Milan, and Auxentius and Arian Bishop; the Arian challenged the Orthodox Bishop to dispute, procured the Authority of the Emperor Valentinian (a Child not yet baptised) by the favour of the Empress Justina an Arian, for his summons to appear in the Emperor's Court or Consistory, signifying that certain learned Jews and Pagans were chosen as Judges on Auxentius part, and allowing him to make choice of his Judges. Ambrose from such premises expecting no good conclusion, refused to answer either the challenge of the Arian, or charge of the Emperor; and 
h Ambrose Ep. 32. l 5. Tom. 3. p. 121, etc.  makes his Apology to the Emperor with a modest boldness, giving him all reverential and dutiful terms, yet freely without fear, pleading with him the right of his cause.  
3. The next particular is the Persons requisite for the ordering of a Dispute, are Notaries, who have an 
i Notariorum arserat, ut quae dicebantur notatis quibusdam exciperent tanta celeritate, ut non dictantis tantùm sed loquentis vocem assequerentur, unde Graecis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicuntur. Erasm. in vita Origen. fol. 3. p. 1.  art of short and swift writing, to set down what is spoken in disputation, when it is spoken. This was the manner of public disputations before 
k Epiph. contra Photinianos Haeres. 71. l. 3. Tom. 1. p. 197. col. 1.  Epiphanius his time, as he showeth by example; and so it was in the disputation betwixt the Catholics and Donatists, wherein 
l Apertis notariotum tabulis disputatio coepta est Possidon. in vita Aug. c. 6.  Augustine had to do; and in his disputation with 
m Aug. de acts cum Foelice Manich. fine lib. 1. Tom. 6. p. 633.  Foelix the Manichean, there were Notaries on both sides.  
In later times the like hath been observed, as in the controversy at Petricovia in Poland, that we may be sure it was waged betwixt Papists and Arrians: 
n Anthon. Possev. Biblioth. Select. videat lit. c.  Possevine relateth, the Scribe or Notary was a noble personage, who had written against Calvin. In the conference at Ratisbone, betwixt the Protestants and Papists, the Protestants moved, that what passed in the conference may be 
o Protestants, qui viderent quibuscum adversariis essent commissi, collocutionem omnem & acta describi petunt. Sleyd. comment. l. 16. p. 353.  set down by Notaries: and at that in Poysie it was one of the conditions of the Colloquy propounded by Beza and his associates, 
p Hist. of the Council of Trent, l. 5. p. 451.  that there should be Notaries chosen by both parties: so was Mr. Alesbury chosen to write the Conference or Dispute betwixt Doctor Featley and 
q See the Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net. part 1. p. 46.  Fisher. The office of a Notary is faithfully, and without partiality, to write what passeth betwixt the adverse parties. Against a false Notary the Emperor Alexander Severus was so severe, that he 
r Notarium incisis digitorum nervis, ut nunquam scribere posset. Bucolz. Index Chron. ad An. 223. p. 171.  caused his fingers to be cut off, so that he could never write after. Mr. Fisher the Jesuit, I believe, had not read that story, when he thrust himself into a Notary's office, at a Dispute betwixt Dr. Featley and Mr. Musket, and 
s Romish Fisher, etc. p. 37.  falsified that office. Some that mean not well have no mind of Notaries, 
t Pascentius verba sua excerpi noluit. Aug. Epist. 174 Tom. 2. p. 901.  as Pascentius the Arrian, Augustine's Adversary, who would not yield to have his tongue followed by the Notary's pen; the Popish party liked not the motion of the Protestants for Notaries in the Conference at Ratisbone, alleging it would draw out the debate too long, if that might be an exception, than it cannot well be so, at least not so well: now in our more expert age, wherein there are many, who by Brachygraphy, can write as fast as most men ordinarily speak. 
u Possidon. in vita, Aug. c. 17.  The want of Notaries in a private Dispute betwixt Augustine and Pascentius, gave him occasion and encouragement to brag that he had the better of it, and put Augustine to make a confutation of that falsehood, by their testimonies who were present at it. From the same cause was it, that Dr. Fr. White was represented so silly a Disputant with Fisher, as if he had been a Schoolboy of thirteen years old; for he 
w Doctor Fr. White his reply to Jesuit Fish. answ. Pre. p. 9 princ. & fine.  confesseth there was not a word written at that time, when he and his Adversaries disputed together.  
The fourth sort of persons convenient to be present at a Dispute of Religion are such, as for their integrity and discretion, are worthy to be witnesses of what passeth in Dispute. Such are not superfluous (besides the Notaries) to attest the transaction of every day's dispute, and the whole at the last: and such had 
x Possid. vide lit. q.  Augustin in his private dispute with Pascentius, though without Notaries. And by such was the cause and credit of the Protestant Religion, and the Champion for it Doctor Featly, righted against the fictions and falsehoods of Fisher and his party, concerning the close of their conference, which in truth was thus; Fisher refusing to answer to Christ and his Apostles, the Protestant party present called off, or rather pulled off the opponent Doctor Featly; so the conference broke up: and this is attested 
y The Romish Fisher, etc. par. 1. p. 45, 46.  by the subscription of two Earls, two Knights, three Esquires, one Doctor, two Bachelors in Divinity, besides the Notaries chosen by both parties.  
Fourthly, For other Auditors, it were to be wished that none were admitted, but such as in some competent measure are able to judge, and are not weaklings in the Faith, since the Apostle saith, him that is weak in the Faith receive, but not to doubtful disputations, Rom. 14.1. But it cannot be that (as it was at the conference at Ratisbone and Hampton Court) the hearers should be always only such as are particularly called, or admitted: and we find examples of promiscuous admission of all persons, both in ancient and in latter times; for the former we have an instance in Augustine's time, when at his disputation with a Manichean Doctor 
z Convenerunt in unum, concurrentibusque plurimis viris studiosis turbisque curiosis. Possidon, de vita Aug. p. 6.  there came together not only many studious men, but the curious multitude: and when Gregentius disputed with Herbanus the learned Jew, the 
a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Biblioth. veterum patrum Graeco Lat. Tom. 1. p. 194.  whole City came thronging together to hear. The disputations of latter times especially, since those errors which heretofore used for fear or shame to sneak into corners, have got the impudence to give affront to Preachers in the Pulpit, and their maintainers to challenge them to dispute; a kind of necessity hath been put upon some to contest for the truth in the most public Audiences and Assemblies of the people. Thus much for the persons considerable in and about disputations of Religion.  
Our next observations must be set upon Rules and Laws, whereby disputations must be regulated in order to an happy issue and success.  
First then, According to the religious Aphorism of 
b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 1. Tom. 1. p. 1.  Nazianzen, the work must begin with God, and end with God by prayers and praises, for he is the father of Lights, James 5.7. and can make dark things clear; and when he sets a light before men, he can open their eyes to see it, and bind their hearts to embrace it.  
Secondly, Whatsoever point or Doctrine we bring to discussion, we must make God's word the authentic rule of trial, receiving nothing as matter of Faith Fundamental to Salvation, but what is in express terms contained in it, or by just consequence deduced from it.  
Thirdly, The matter in question must be truly and clearly stated and agreed upon before the disputation begin, else it may be 
* See the explication of the proverb, c. 4. lit. w.  Andabatarum pugna, a blind buffeting of the Disputants betwixt themselves, or a beating of the air, as the Apostle phraseth it. 
t Alternis vicibus contentioso fune uterque diem in vesperam traxerunt, nubulo quodam veritas obumbrabatur. Tertull. advers. Judaeos c. 1. princ. cap. Tom. 1. p. 198.  Tertullian in the beginning of his book against the Jews, observes such a disputation betwixt a Christian and a Jewish Proselyte, who drew out the day as by a cord of contention until night; in the mean time the truth was overshadowed by a cloud, which was to be cleared up by determining the 
d Summum quaestionis ipsius certis lineis determinemus, Ibid. c. 2. p. 19●:  sum of the Question, within certain lines or limits of resolution for the state of it, as he speaketh afterwards. If this be not first done, nothing in the dispute can be well done, no orderly proceeding can be made in the way, but a wild wandering out of the way; which might justly have moved your Adversary Mr. O. in sober sadness (without any jeering) to confess that he was miserably overseen, yea, in the understanding of that very question upon which he disputed, until he came to page 113. of his Examination of your Reply, which in all containeth but 130.  
Fourthly, That the Disputation be not drawn out by Rhetorical Exspatiations (as the Jesuit Cotton was used to do, who was, as 
e Petrus Cottonus Rhetoricus jactantior quàm dialecticus acutior. Daniel. Cham. Praefat. ad 2. par. Epist. Jesuit.  Chamier saith of him, rather a braving Rhetorician then an arguing Logician) but rather contracted by Logical Argumentation. Some have no mind of Logical Disputes, because there are others who use Sophistry, or fallacious Conclusions, which 
f Contorta Sophismata, sic enim app. Hantur fallaces conclusiunculae. Cicer. Acad. quaest. Edit. 1. l. 2. num. 67.  Cicero calleth writhed and pricking Sophisms, for Logic; and which Seneca gravely derideth, 
g Non debuit hoc nobis esse propositum argutè disserere, & Philosophiam in has angustias ex sua majestate detrahere, neque quicquam aliud istae disputationes sunt quàm inter se peritè captantium lusus. Senec. Epist 48. p. 464. Edit. Lipsian.  as a degrading of Philosophy from the latitude of her Majesty into straits; and mere plays or triflings betwixt such as are cunningly captious: and when Doctor Featley required of his Antagonist M. Fisher, that both the opponent and respondent should be tied to Logical form: Fisher answered, that he did not hold that fit, because the company understands not Logic form; to which the Doctor answered, there are of the company that understand Logic as well as you or I, the rest are men of understanding and reason; and I am resolved to keep Logic form, and expect from you direct answers: 
h Romish Fisher, E. c. 1.1. par. p. 8.  and well he might, for Logic is nothing but Reason brought into Rule; wherewith by the light of Nature many are well endowed, though they have not the art of Logic: but it seems they meant a strict Form of Logic by Syllogisms, 
i Ibid.  though the Question of the visibility of the Church in all ages (which they had in debate) required, as the Doctor told the Jesuit, rather a large Historical volume, than a brief Syllogistical Dispute: and for Logic, I know not how any dispute can be well ordered without it; since, as 
k Aug. Tom. 1. p. 375. Dialectica nihil aliud docet quàm consequentia demonstrare, seu vera veris, seu falsa falsis, Aug. contr. Crescon. Grammat. l. 1. c. 20. Tom. 7. par. 1 p. 261.  Augustine saith, it teacheth nothing else but to demonstrate consequences true or false, from true or false principles; 
l Nunquam doctrina Christiana dialecticam formidat; sicut eam in Stoicis non reformi dabat Apost. quos secum volentes conferre non respuit. Ibid.  which Christian Doctrine (saith he) is never afraid of; as the Apostle Paul did not fear it in the Stoics, whom he did not refuse, when they were willing to confer with him.  
But for Logickly strict Form of Syllogism throughout the disputation, it cannot well be observed, much less is it of necessity to be required; and indeed it was very seldom practised by the Ancients; yea, that great Disputant, Augustine himself, though he have not only written a 
m Aug. Tom. 1. operum p. 375.  Treatise of Logic, but an 
n Aug. contra Crescon. Grammat. l. 1. ubi supra.  Apology for Logic, putteth very few of his Reasonings into Syllogistical Form. And when they Syllogise, some of the show themselves no very good Artists at it, as we may see by Gregory Nyssens ten Syllogisms against the Manichean Heretics: and for latter times, 
o Greg. Nyssent Tom. 3. p. 180. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  though some disputations have been carried on by a Series of many Syllogisms artificially concluded in Mood and Figure, 
p Fox. Martyr. vol. 2. p. 757, 758, 759, 760.  as that of Peter Martyr against Doctor Tresham, Chadsey, and Morgan before the King's Visitors at Oxford, Ann. 1549. ordinarily they have passed by Alternation and Reciprocation of Reasons and Exceptions, without forming of Syllogisms in Mood and Figure, and have not been the less profitable and successful; as we see in that excellent Debate or Dispute, called a Conference betwixt Doctor Reynolds and the Jesuit Hart.  
Fifthly, That there be allowed an equal vicissitude for objecting and answering without interruption; and that none interpose, or take upon them to be Disputants, but those that were agreed upon before the disputation began: the care of these cautions belongeth especially to the Moderators or Precedents office, as King James his example showeth in the conference at Hampton Court, by reproving the Bishop of London for interrupting Doctor Reynolds, as hath been brought in already, though to another purpose.  
Sixthly, When there is an Intermission, or end of the disputition, First, the Notary's writings are to be compared, and if they differ, to be reconciled.  
Secondly, The Disputants are to have liberty to revise their own Reasons, Objections, and Solutions, and to correct them by altering, adding, or expunging, so as may make for the amendment of their own Arguments and Answers. This liberty Dr. Reynolds and Mr. Hart allowed one another.  
Thirdly, When each side is satisfied, and that their opinions and plead are set down as they would have them, than the Parties, Notaries, and Witnesses hands are to be subscribed to them.  
Seventhly, Sometimes secrecy is required upon oath, that nothing be revealed to any one absent from the conference, until a certain time; 
q Sleyd. Comment. l. 16. p. 534.  as when the Emperor imposed this condition on the conference at Ratisbone, viz. that nothing should be communicated to any one not present, before the Emperor and Princes of the Empire were made acquainted with all the transactions under the hands of the Notaries; which the Protestant party could not yield unto, because their Princes required an account of their proceed of the Colloquy from time to time: this occasioned the breaking up the conference abruptly without fruit, but not without mutual offence on both sides.  
There be some other Rules which might have augmented the number, if I should have counted on with them; but I have virtually premised th●m already in the qualifications of the Disputants: I shall add no more but only this advice, that the dispute, according to the admonition of 
* Nazianz. Tom. 1. orat. 1. p. 1.  Nazianzen, begin and end like the eighth Psalm, with glory to God. If Colloquies, Conferences, and Disputations of matters of Religion were thus begun, continued and concluded, the truth would be not only militant against, but triumphant over rebellious error, which presumes to affront it, and sometimes to challenge it into the field, and over reproachful rumour which dogs it with barking obloquy afterwards; and so there would be no need of playing an after game with the Adversary, as now there is with yours, of whom, with what he hath written against you, I shall in that which followeth, according to your request, give you a reason of my former advice, not to honour him any more by taking him for your Antagonist; and so from Disputations in general, I shall pass to your Disputation with Mr. O. in particular.   

CHAP. VII. Of the Disputation at Kenelmworth, betwixt John Brian Doctor in Divinity, Minister at Coventry, and John Onley Pastor of a Church at Lawford (as he styles himself.) How it was occasioned, undertaken, and continued at divers monthly meetings there.  
THe occasion of the Disputation (as it is related in Doctor Brian's Letter to me, and in both his and Mr. Onley's Epistles printed with, and prefixed before the printed Disputation) was this; When the Lecture at Kenelmworth, at the Monday monthly meeting there was agreed upon by many Ministers, and begun Decem. 1. 1655. for the setting up, and settling of a Gospel-order in Parochial Congregations. Doctor Brian, who took the first turn in it, held it on himself the space of six months together; the Text he treated on was Colos. 2.5. Though I b● absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. In my second Sermon (saith he) I desired any that should hearme, or hear what I delivered touching the way of reforming our Parochial Church's, which we resolved on, if they doubted of the truth of any thing, they would signify their doubts or scruples in writing, and I would endeavour to satisfy them. Accordingly a godly Brother of the Congregational way (Lieutenant Fox by name) sent in sundry objections to the Doctors third discourse upon that Text, and some letters passed betwixt them, whereof he (i.e. Mr. Fox) desired not any publication (though for parts and piety he is judged no way inferior to Mr. Onley) but he, viz. Mr. O. the next day openly declared his dissent, and desired to dispute with the Doctor publicly upon these two Questions.  
First, Whether the Parish Assemblies of England generally be true visible Churches; which Mr. O. denied.  
Secondly, Whether every Brother, though no Elder, that hath received abilities from God (whereby he is enabled to preach) may publicly preach; which he affirmed; appointing me, saith Doctor Brian, to be Opponent in the first, and Respondent in the second question the next monthly day.  
It would have signified some modesty in Mr. O. not to have apppointed Dr. Br. but to have the turns of dispute as he would appoint them.  
I need not tell you (saith the Doctor) how many dissuasions I had from entering the lists with an illiterate Adversary, as Mr. O. was taken for by many: among others this that in so doing, I should disparage myself, nor was there any probability of good to come of it; which it had been well, if he had heeded so far, as to refuse not so much the dispute itself, as to undertake it with such an unequal opposite. But he argued himself into an acceptance of the challenge, out of some reasons of piety, charity, and humility, which (as event hath proved) were misapplyed to Mr. O. and that rather by his injurious misdoing, then by the Doctor's imprudent mistaking. Besides he had an inducement to adventure some inconveniencies by the dispute (while but doubtful) from the experience of his contestation with two Anabaptists of London, Mr. Knowles and Mr. Kaffen, who came from thence to Coventry, with a great deal of confidence to confront Dr. Brian, and his worthy Brother Dr. Grew in a public disputation: for which purpose, though the Magistrates of the City, and at their request, promised to lend the Town-Hall (upon the boisterous misbehaviour both of themselves, and of many of their followers, on the Sabbath day before the disputation (who flocked in great numbers thither, to countenance and encourage their Champions) they recalled their concession, & for the same cause the Committee of Parliament residing there, for bade the dispute. The 2. Doctors notwithstanding were necessitated somewhat to Symbolise with the Anabaptists, viz. so far as to a nonobedience of their Governors therein, & that rather in hope of their pardon, then in contempt of their power; because the Anabaptists imputed these prohibitions, not so much to the prudence of the Magistrates, as to the diffidence of the Doctors to undertake the defence of their professed judgement and practice: and this sinister suggestion so far swayed with some religious persons, that they inclined to make a Schism from the Church, if these farfetched Fencers should find none to take up the Sword and Buckler against them. For prevention of which scandal, they were publicly encountered, the truth so strenuously asserted, and they so fully confuted (in a very numerous Auditory) that such as before were wavering, and in a manner tottering towards a revolt (if they should have had cause to glory, that they put off their harness, because none durst put on any to combat with them) were throughly satisfied, and firmly settled and established in the truth. The like bravadoes Doctor Brian might expect from his Thrasonical challenger, if he had not been undertaken, and his factious adherents would have triumphantly traduced him, that he durst not commit his cause to such a public trial, and so they might have gained a great advantage, which might have confirmed his fellow-Sectaries, and dissettled the simple, too much addicted to listen after novel fancies, and to like them too well. Besides, he might have good hope also that the success of a disputation at Kentlmworth would be such, as there was of that at Coventry. And so the day prefixed to begin the disputation being come, nine Arguments were brought by the Doctor, in vindication of the Affirmative in the first Question; and when half the time was spent in debate of the two first, Mr. O. (as himself saith) moved for the rest of the time to oppose in the second question, which was granted only with a motion of reading the other seven in the Congregation: whereto Mr. O consented, desiring a copy of the Arguments undisputed of, to return an answer to be likewise publicly read the next meeting, which was Monday month after; according to which, Mr. O. drew up, as he saith, a Reply, and read it in the Congregation.   

CAAP. VIII. Of the printing of the Disputation. By whose motion it was made. By whom, and how managed.  
IMmediately after what Mr. O. had drawn up was read, a Gentleman then present, desired that the Disputation might be printed, and desired Mr. O. to move it to the Doctor, which he did; whereto he replied, if he might reply he was willing: but said withal, that he had twelve Arguments more in proof of the question: to which I replied (saith Mr. O.) I was contented he should reply to mine answer to the nine first without any rejoinder, provided I might answer to the twelve last without his reply, only till they were printed; and then each should be at liberty to write what he pleased. To this motion of printing the Doctor yielded in the close of the third or fourth day's disputation. viz. that Mr. O. his Arguments, Answers, Replies, and Rejoinders might be put in print, and (for his proviso) Doctor Brian gave him liberty to oppose what he pleased, and take in also the help of Mr. Marley, and those other seven who assisted him in disputation, that the utmost he and they could object further against our Parish Churches, might come under one view: and withal, the Doctor wished him to forbear in stead of arguing, to make any more excursions by tedious and impertinent declamations against our Ministers and Members, wherein all your answers (saith he to Mr. O.) for the most part spend themselves. So in the Epistle of Doctor Brian to Mr. O. I have related the more out of both their printed Testimonies, touching the disputation and impression of it, because the printed book is very hard to come by, though Mr. O. saith it was published with both their consents, which may be very much doubted of for divers reasons. For,  
First, there were no public Notaries and Witnesses, to write and attest what passed in dispute betwixt them.  
Secondly, Though there were copies taken of the dispute, the chief penman of the whole was Mr. O. who 
(a) In the Disputat. p. 46.  confessith, by reason of a mighty crowd of people he could hardly breathe, or write one perfect sentence of Doctor Brian's Sermon: and there might be as much difficulty in taking by his pen other Dictates delivered by word. The crowd it is like was very great, for Dr. Brian speaking of seven which took Mr. O. his part in the disputation, who were Antipedobaptists; he in his answer saith, 
b J. O. in his Exam. of the Doctors Reply. p. 23, 24.  he believeth there was seven times seven thrice told that took his part, that is 149. and I believe for one such a one, there was 20. at least of a contrary judgement.  
Thirdly, But if there were a perfect copy of the Dispute made up by the Doctor and him, that copy was committed to Mr. O. his hand to be promoted to the Press, and no copy kept, whereby it might be known to be truly printed: such was the Doctor's candid and suspectless dealing with his adversary, which laid a great engagement upon him, of fair and ingenuous correspondence with him again.  
Fourthly, When the book was printed, he should have sent the Doctor a copy of it, before he had printed his Letter of consent unto it, that he might allow or disallow it, as he should see cause.  
Fifthly, Mr. O. having the Manuscript in his own hands, might have altered his own part for the better, the Doctors for the worse at his pleasure. And that he had a mind to magnify himself, and disgrace the Doctor all he could, is plain, both by the book of the disputation, and by his latter book of the Examination of the Doctors Reply. For the former, it may appear to any indifferent Reader, that for a good part of the Book, from the beginning (wherein Doctor Brian is Opponent) he expresseth the promptness of a ready Text-man, and the acumen of a Polemic School-man, as his assiduous and uncessant (yet very powerful) preaching, showeth him an excellent Pulpit-man: But in the relation of the latter part of the Book Mr. O. so enervateth the vigour of his discourse, as if he had suffered a failing of his faculties, as Samson did when his locks were shorn. And this he did that he might have more hope to appear a conqueror in the conflict. To which end he contracteth the Doctor's Speeches, and enlargeth his own after what size he pleaseth: so that he neither doth, nor can acknowledge he hath done him right in the printed Edition of that disputation. And who that knoweth his eminent abilities for quickness of conceit, soundness of judgement, and liveliness of spirit, and volubility of speech, can imagine that he would suffer Mr. O. to enlarge his answer to his ninth Argument, of less than four lines, to well towards forty; and in that answer to sum up the Dispute into a Triumphant Compendium for his own reputation, and the Doctor's reproach, without one word of Reply for himself or his cause? As in this printed disputation he hath done him little right, so in the other Book he hath done him a great deal of wrong, for not being contented to magnify his own performance, with a mastership in the Dispute, as himself sets it forth (when it had been honour enough for him, in that Doctor Brian accepted of him for his Antagonist, though he had submitted to him as his convert) he published another Book as an examination of the Doctors Reply; wherein he took a great deal more liberty to traduce him. But that which I will observe at present, is his unworthy dealing with the Doctor, in the publication of those two Books: for because he could not for shame but publish something in the dispute, which might appear answerable to Dr. Brian's deserved estimation (for otherwise hundreds would have accused him as a falsary) that book of the dispute was rather suppressed, then commonly sold; for so soon as I heard that it was to be printed, I wrote to my Stationer for it, and remembered him of it with much importunity many times for many weeeks and months together, to procure one for me; and though he used his best endeavour and diligence to that purpose, he still returned a non est inventus for that book: but so soon as I heard of Mr. O. his second book, and sent for it, I received it by the first return of the Carrier afterward: the readiest reason of which difference I conceive to be this, Mr. O. his falsehood in the former Book, might more easily be discovered then in the latter; and his honour to the Doctor's dishonour in the later was more set forth, then in the former. In the publication whereof, besides the offensive Contents of it, he gav● Doctor Brian cause of complaint, in that this later Book against him (much more against him then the former, because it was much more contumelious and insolent) had been abroad a long time, before he had any notice thereof. Truly whatsoever Mr. O. thinketh of his own omission herein (and it may be his desire was, that he of all men should never have seen it) I could not but take it for a part of ingenuity and justice (when my case was like his) to give as timely intelligence as I could, of what I had published against his Friend mine Adversary Mr. S. by leaving one of my Books with his Stationer G. C. so soon as it came from the Press, to be sent to him with speed: and so I dealt with Doctor H. for (having received some copies of my first Book against him, first of all upon Friday night) I sent my servant with one to him the next Saturday following.   

CHAP. IX. Of Mr. Onley his Quality and Condition, his Wit and Utterance, his Ignorance and Arrogancy, his reproachful speaking of such as are not of his Sect, and partiality to himself and them, his carping at the Magistrates for meddling with matters of Religion, and countenancing of Ministers.  
I Shall say little of the man, but what I find published to the world by his own Pen, and if that have betrayed him to the condemning censure of pious and judicious Readers, he must blame himself, not me, who have no exception against his person. I confess he once maketh mention of me, 
c In the Exame of Dr. Brian's Reply. p. 32.  as of an Adversary, but dismisseth me without any incivility at all. And I am so far from detracting from any commendation due unto him, that I shall not fear the sharp Criticism of Baronius concerning Onuphrius, which was, 
d Aventinum infectum Haeresis scabie bestiam indigne nimis Onuphrius homo Catholicus pectine scalpit eburneo, dum eum praedicat virum esse disertum. Baron. Annal. Tom. 10. Anno 996. col. 496.  that he being a Catholic, did too unworthily claw a beast infected with a scab of Heresy, with an Ivory comb, when he commended Aventine for an eloquent man; I should not, I say, fear such a censure.  
Though for the two first particulars, as some have represented him to me, I should say of him, as Augustine did of 
e Tychonius Donatista homo quidem acri ingenio & ubere eloquio praeditus. Aug. l. 1. contr. Ep. Parmen. c. 1. Tom. 7. par. 1. p. 9  Tychonius the Donatist, that he is a man endowed with a sharp wit, and copious utterance; and that made him more able, and more willing to wrangle with the Doctor, and to his partial adherents to seem victorious, when in the judgement of the most judicious and equal hearers, he was vanquished, as some of them have told me; and I conceive I have the more cause to believe it, because in whatsoever he most excelled the Doctor, was far above him, being eminently endowed with all kind of learning: wherein to speak to the third particular [Mr. O. his Ignorance] he was very deficient, though he bring in now and then a few words of Hebrew, Greek and Latin, that an illiterate Reader may take him for a learned man. And if he had been such a one indeed, he would not have brought in Historical reports of matters of importance done many hundred years before he was born, without quoting some Author of account; as for that of 
f Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply. p. 7.  Paphnutius, who though but one man, prevailed for the liberty of marriage of Clergymen, against a General Council; for which he should (and no doubt would, if he had been versed in venerable Antiquity) have cited 
g Concil. Nice. prim. Tom. 1. Counc. p. 423. col. 1. edit. Bin. 1636.  the Council of Nice, or 
h Socr. Scholast. li 1. c. 8. Niceph. Eccles. Hist. l. 8. c. 18, 19  Socrates Scholasticus, or Nicephorus, or some other Historiographer of some of the precedent ages. In which story, though he glory very much, and repeat it several times without proof, it makes as much for the credit of the Quakers, against his schismatical party, as for them against the more numerous company of regular Professors of the Doctor's way; for which purpose he produceth the singular example, but it betrays more ignorance of Antiquity in that: for the first division of Parishes by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury, 
i Mr. O. in the Misput. p. 14.  he citeth a very late novelist Mr. Saltmarsh, and by him learned Mr. Selden (in his Book De Decimis) an Epithet and Subject in learned Mr. Selden well matched, and as well in ignorant Mr. Saltmarsh and Mr. O. both, in this particular especially; for the Book is not, as the Author entitles it, De Decimis, but the History of Tithes: and in that 
k Seld. Hist. of Tithes. c. 9 paragr. 3. p. 256, 257, 258.  History he disproves their opinion, who hold that Honcrius Archbishop of Canterbury divided his Province into Parishes, or Parochial Limits, such as we have; for the word Parochia in his age, may be taken rather for a Diocese, then for a division of lesser compass, as in later times; for in the Prelacy of his next successor but one, whose name was Theodorus, An. 673 there was a Council celebrated at Herudford, as Beda reporteth, whereof in the second Canon it is ordained, 
l Nullus Epis coporum Parochiam alterius invadat, sed contentus sit gubernatione creditae sibi plebis. Concil. Herudford: cui Praesidebat Archiep. Theodor. can 2. apud Bed. Eccles. Hist. Gent. Anglor. l. 4. c. 5. p. 160.  that no Bishop invade another Bishop's Parish, but that he be content with the government of the people committed to his charge. That which answereth to the extent of a Bishop's authority in the language of those times, was not of so narrow a circumference as a Pastoral charge. The truth is, neither Mr. O. nor Mr. Selden, though an industrious Antiquary, could determine the Antiquity of Parochial Divisions. 
m H●norius Archiepiscopus Cantuariensis circa annum à salute reparata 636. Angliam primus in Parochias, ut legitur in Historia Cantuariensi, distribuere coepit. Camb. Brit. p 99 & 100 edit. 3.  Cambden I confess assigned the Division of Parishes in England to Honorius for the person, and to the year 636. for the time; but he gives too short a note of it, to resolve the doubts that are moved about it: and by that which next followeth, we may conceive he meaneth the division into Dioceses or Bishoprics, according to the Canon now cited. For mine own and others satisfaction I made a more serious search into the question, the result whereof I delivered in the sixth Reason annexed to the petition to his Highness the Lord Protector, and to the High Court of Parliament, for the establishment of Ministers in sequestered Benefices for their own lives.  
Now if I may be allowed to blow with mine own Heyser, though it were not known to be mine (the Book being published under the name of Pkilotheus Philomystes) I conceive it convenient to repeat it here, not only to discover the ignorance of Mr. O. and Mr. S. but to take off the edge of their confidence, when they cry out upon Parochial divisions as of Antichristian institutions: for the original of Parochial partitions Doctor 
n Tooker of the Fab. of the Church and Church Live. p. 44.  Tooker and 
o Hooker Eccles. Pol. l. 5. p. 333.  Mr. Hooker refer it to Evaristius Bishop of Rome, Anno 112. but neither quote any Author for it. They that do name the Book called the Pontificale of Damasus, who was Bishop of Rome about the year 367. but that (say 
p Baron. Annal. Tom. 4. ad Ann. 384. num. 22.  Baronius and 
q Possev. Appar. Tom. 1. p. 410.  Possevine) was not the Book of any Damasus at all, but of Anastasius Bibliothecarius, saith 
r Bellarm. de Eccles. Scrip. p. 123.  Bellarmine; and whose Book soever it was, it is (for divers untruths) disapproved by 
s Baron. ubi supra.  Baronius, and 
t Bin. Tom 1. con. p. 61. col. 2.  Binius: others refer the distinction to Dionysius who was Bishop of Rowe, Anno 261. as 
u Bin. Ibid p. 121. col. 2.  Binius accounts, but 
w Baron. Tom. 2. num. 17.  Baronius reckons Anno 270. and 
x Baron. ubi supra.  reports it rather as a Renovation in his time and by him, than a new institution.  
Obj. But if the division be derived from a Bishop of Rome, it is Popish, and by consequence Antichristian also.  
Answ. Not so neither; for in the primitive times, when Christianity was persecuted, 
a Mr. Fox Martyr. vol. 1. p. 732. col. 2.  22 Bishops of Rome for it were martyred one after another, from the Apostles time downward, to the end of the third Century; and it will be no good manners neither in morality nor Christianity to call them Antichristian, who laid down their lives for Christ's sake.  
Obj. But they are called Popes, and is not that Popery which cometh from the Pope?  
Answ. The Title Pope signifieth Father, and anciently was not appropriated to the Bishops of Rome, but communicated to Bishops in common, as 
b Onuph. in Bonif. 3. p. 81. col. 1.  Onuphrius a learned Papist confesseth: all Bishops were called Popes, until Justinians time, saith 
c Pamel. Cypr. p. 11.  Pamelius, as Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria was called Pope by 
d Epiph. haeres. Tom. 2. haeres. 68  Epiphanius, so Heraclius by 
e Apud Euseb. Eccles. Hist. l. 7. c. 6.  Dionysius Alexandrinus, and 
f Cypriano Papae Moys. & maximus Ep. 26. p. 32. col. 1. edit. Pamel.  Cyprian is often called Pope, yea by the 
g Benedict. Papam Cyprian. sic clerus Roman. ad clerum Carthag. Ep. 3. p. 10. col. 2. Cypr. Papae clerus Rom. Ep. 30. p. 55. col. 1. Cypriano Papae Presbyt. & Diacon. Romae. Ep. 31. p. 36. col. 2. & in fine Epist. optamus to beatiss. & gloriosiss. Papa. p. 38. Ibid.  Clergy of Rome (albeit he were not Bishop of Rome, but of Carthage) and by a Pope (it was Pope 
h Selden Spicil. ad Eadmerum. p. 205. ex Gervasio Dorobernensi. M.S.  Vrban the second) was our Archbishop of Canterbury called Pope of the other world, meaning, of the Island of great Britain, severed by the Sea from the world. Hierom, though (as hath been noted) he were respective enough of the reputation of the Roman Prelate, familiarly applied that title to others as well as unto him, as to 
i Hieron. ad Heliodor. Epitaph Nepotiani Tom. 1. p. 27. & Tom. 6. Proem. in Jonam prophet. p. 123.  Cromatius, to 
k Hieron. Apolog. advers. Ruffinum l. 2. Tom. 2. p. 225. ante medium.  Epiphanius, to 
l Hieron. Ep. ad Chromatiam Tom. 1. p. 216. circa med.  Valerianus, to 
m Hi●ronym. ad Princip. Marcellae viduae Epitaph. Tom. 1. p. 119. prope initium.  Athanasius, to 
n Ibid. Tom. 2. p. 311. Ep. Theophilo & p. 310. Ep. Pammach. & Marcello.  Theophilus, to 
o Idem Tom. 5. p. 63. in Prologue. in 10. vision. Esa.  Amabilis, to 
p Idem Tom. 4 p 64. de viro perfect. sub nomine H●eron.  Ambrose, to 
q Symbol. Suffin. inter opera Hieron. Tom. 4. p. 129. lin. 1. Symbol. Hieron.  Laurentius, to 
r Tom. 2. p. 368. Ep. August.  Alipius, and to 
s Idem Tom. 2. p. 322, 351, 358, 368, etc.  Augustine; none of which were Bishops of Rome, but of other places.  
Ob. But if Bishops, it is enough to discredit all they do, for saith Mr. O. (and therein he bewrayeth his gross ignorance again) 
t Mr. O. in Dispute. p. 30.  the Devil ordained the Pope, the Pope the Bishops, and the Bishops you, to Doctor Brian; how can you be true Ministers by him that was none himself?  
By that which hath been observed of the Title Pope, as in the ancient acception of it, the Devil no more ordained the Pope, than he did Bishops.  
For, Bishops as Bishops were ordained neither by the Pope nor by the Devil, but by the Holy Ghost, as we have it Act. 20.28, Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the holy Ghost hath made you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Overseers, the same word elsewhere is rendered Bishops, Philip. 1.1. 1 Tim. 3.2. Tit. 1.7.  
The Pope's now adays, and of long time ago, are made by Cardinals, and he makes them again, as Ice and Water produce one another; but the Pope seldom makes Bishops, but Bishops make Bishops, both according 
u So in the Canon of those that are falsely called the Canons of the Apostles. Bin. Tom. 1. Can. 1. p. 16. Concil. Arelatens. Ann. 314. It was ordained there should be Bishops to consecrate Bishops, three at the ●east. Arelat. Can. 21. Tom. 1. Concil. p. 267. col. 1.  to Ecclesiastical constitution, constant custom, and usage of the Church.  
If the Bishops were Popish and Antichristian, it doth not follow, that all they do is Popish and Antichristian.  
For first, Popes and Papists of all sorts and ranks, do some things as men, by the light of Reason, and instinct of natural conscience, as Rom. 2.14, 15. So if Honorius did divide his Province of Canterbury into Parishes, as many hold he did (particularly Godwin in his 
w Godwins Catalogue of Bishops. p. 52.  Catalogue of Bishops) it was (as he saith) that he might appoint particular Ministers to particular Congregations; a course so rational, that no man can justly take exception at it; for doth not common reason dictate the same for the ordering of all civil Societies, subdividing a Nation into Counties, Counties into Hundreds, Hundreds into Cities, Towns and Villages? and are they not governed by Judges, Justices, and Constables, High and Petty, and all limited within certain precincts, and divided according to the vicinity of their habitations, as the meaning of the word 
* 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. juxta habitare, to dwell nigh together:  Paroecia intimateth; and so in ordering of Armies, Academies, Colleges and Schools. The course taken according to Reason, is to divide and subdivide into Companies and Classes, and to set Officers over them, so as may most conduce to the benefit of all: and if we shall renounce Reason, and act by Antipathies, 
Purch. Pilgr. ●. ● c. 1●.  we may perhaps become as wise as the Pagans in Pegu, who both men and women make their teeth black, because dogs teeth are white; and they scorn to imitate a canine Candour.  
Secondly, Some things they did as men ingenuously educated, and endowed with knowledge of Arts, and Tongues, and Histonies', and so many who are in their Religion and Profession Popish, have written divers excellent Books and Discourses of all sorts.  
Thirdly, Some things they do as Christians, assenting to the authority of Scriptures, and teaching and practising many things consonant to the truth and tenor thereof, so many of them (even the most Antichristian as the Jesuits) have written divers godly discourses and commentaries upon many Books of the Bible, and some upon all, which are very conducible to the understanding of the Sacred Text.  
Fourthly, Some things they dictate, and do as Antichristian, and in such things only we are to departed from them; if the Devils believe there is one God, we may believe so too, and therein we do well, James 2.19. and if we should not do so, woe should be worse than Devils; whatsoever is good, in whomsoever, is from God; and it is more to be esteemed in relation to him, then to be condemned in relation unto others, though they he never so wicked.  
Fifthly, For the Bishops that ordained our Presbyters, they ordained them as Presbyters, or Ministers, for such they were before they were Bishops; and so being Presbyters or Ministers, those whom they ordained might well be true Presbyters and Ministers also.  
I will note but one thing more of his ignorance, and that is a probability that he cannot be learned, from his condition and course of life; for as one of his disciples told Doctor Brian, and the Doctor wrote unto me in his Letter, March 6.16.56, He painfully follows Husbandry all the Week days, and preacheth to a congregation of Anabaptists and universalists on the Sabbath.  
How he should be Learned who spends the most of his time as a Husbannman, unless, as Amos an Herdsman at Tekoa, he were divinely inspired, Amos 1.1. and cap. 17. ver. 14, 15. I cannot conceive: but if he be such a man as he taketh upon him to be, we may in his Name give answer to the Apostles question, Who is sufficient for these things? 2 Cor. 2.16. Here is M. O. a man sufficient, and more than sufficient for the Ministry; for he can act the part of a laborious Husbandman six days together, and on the seventh can perform the Office of a Spiritual Pastor to a Church or Congregation of Christians. And besides his Sermon-sufficiency, is so well furnished with Polemical Divinity, that he dare challenge our most learned Doctors to dispute with them in the greatest Assemblies; and if he may be allowed to report the passages of the Disputation, will baffle them in print into shameful silence, and leave them to be laughed at. Such was his vapouring vanity in his Examination of Doctor Brian's Reply, where having made a ridiculous Argument in the Doctor's Name, he exposeth it to this scornful question, Spectatum admissirisum teneatis? 
Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply, p. 61.  This may fitly lead in the next note of him, which we may take for an effect of his Ignorance, that is, the Arrogancy of his Spirit.  
For the Novice or young Scholar (who hath least knowledge) is apt to be lifted up with pride, 1 Tim. 3.6. and who but an ignorant and arrogant man would in the Title-page of his Examination of the Doctors Reply, affront him (so well known to be every way a man of great worth) with such disdainful and disgraceful words as these, The Invalidity of his Answers, his Sophistical helpless impertinent self-contradicting Allegations, are presented to himself and others, etc. And as he beginneth, so he holds on the same insulting style, and concluding as he began, 
Ibid. p. 115.  I have (saith he) passed through your Reply, and it is proved empty in relation to the Vindication of your Ordination and Entrance. And in the last pag. but one of his Examination, his words are these, 
Ibid. p. 129.  Thus in the midst of many Employments Temporal and Spiritual, seldom allowing me one hours' opportunity together to attend on this task, I have given you (saith he to Doctor Brian and the world) an account of the unsatufactoriness and insufficiency of your Answers: And yet he confesseth the Doctor so sufficient, 
See pag. 15. of his Epist. to the Churches of his way. 1 King. 12.10.  that he is as well able to draw something out of any thing, any thing out of nothing, to his present purpose, as any man he knows in England. But for all that, when he came under your hands, mighty Mr. O. (whose little finger. Rohoboam like, is thicker than the loins of Solomon) he was able to do nothing but mar his own Cause, and shame himself, that you might have the more glorious victory over both. It was well for him that you had so little leisure to attend on this task as you say, else if you had had time enough to manage your Contestation against him to your best advantage, 
Puritanulum istum in jocos & tricas contererem. Weston. de triplice hominis officio.  he might have been handled by you, as Weston the bragging Papist threatened the learned Doctor Reynolds, which was, that if he could come by him, he would grind that little Puritan into jests and trifles.  
But the Doctor is (though such a one as before we have represented him to the Reader) but one man, and to conquer him is nothing with this Goliath, unless he bid defiance to the whole Host of Israel, and (with him) may stalk it over all the Parish Churches of this Nation; yea, and with them over all the Churches of Europe and New-England, as trodden down by his strength. He professeth his opposition of them in that latitude, in the first page of his Examination, and makes account he hath so far carried the Cause against the Doctor (as by the passages already noted may appear) wherein though he disclaim all appearance of Popery both in the Dispute and Examination, 
Ibid. pag. 115, 129.  he bewrayeth a Papal proud Spirit, even the Spirit of Pope Victor, who would have Excommunicated all the Churches which did not observe his rule for the time of Celebration of the Feast of Easter; as hath been noted under another Title.  
The next notorious quality of Mr. O. is his railing and reproaching in his Examination of the Doctor's Reply: as where he setteth upon him with these uncivil terms; 
Exam. p. 60.  Tour doting dregs of desperation, and denial of the greatest part of the very Gospel itself, by which you are involved in a labyrinth of absurdities, errors and confusions: And afterward in the same page, Sure, saith he, you see not what makes for you, and what against you: There is one part of the Gospel that you confess not, but reproach, contemn, vilify and deride, viz. The Death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all men in the world, which is commonly called Universal Redemption. How far that Doctrine is to be denied, contemned, vilified, and to be bewailed rather than derided, for the horrid Blasphemies concomitant with it, and consequent upon it, the Reader may be shortly and sufficiently informed by Mr. Marchemont Nedham, 
Pag. 67, 68, 69  in his  Book against Mr. John Goodwin. And against the Ministry in general, Mr. O. venteth himself in this virulent manner:  
Mr. O. and those of his strain, think they spite the Ministers of England much by calling them Priests, 
Pag. 32.  and their Ministry a Priesthood, as Mr. O. doth here and * elsewhere, in a way of reproach, wherein they bewray both their ignorance and malice: for 1. The Etymology of the word, it is either from the Latin word Praeest, he presideth, or the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, one set over another; or it is a contraction of the word Priester in Low Dutch, which is a contraction of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek, signifying an Elder, and so it is a Name of honour; for the Lord hath said, Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the Elder, Leu. 19.32. And that this is at length, what the word Priest is in short, is evident by the alteration which Archbishop Land made in the old Service-Book of England, when it was to be sent into Scotland; for every where, where the English hath the word Priest, the Scotch Service-book hath the word Presbyter: nor is the word Priest a word of disparagement in the New Testament, since the word Priest and Priesthood is ascribed to Christ above or about ten times in the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
The same is given in an honourable sense unto Christians in 1 Pet. cap. 2. where they are called An holy Priesthood, ver. 5. a royal Priesthood, for 9 and holiness and honour do well sort together, 1 Thess. 4.4. & Rev. c. 1. v. 5. c. 5. v. 10. they are (as by Titles of honour) called Kings and Priests, c. 20.6. Priests alone, in regard of their spiritual Sacrifices, as of praise, Heb. 13.15. of prayer, Psal. 141.2. of a broken and contrite heart, Psal. 51.17. of Alms, Heb. 13.16. by presenting their bodies a living sacrifice unto him, Rom. 12.1. by mortifying inordinate affections and evil concupiscence, Col. 3.5. and by offering themselves as dying Sacrifices for Christ's sake, Phil. 2.17. when they shall be called unto it. Thus we are not ashamed to own the name Priest, but take it for a term of honour, both in the native sense of the word, and use of the Gospel: yet so we do not appropriate it to ourselves, nor can they impose it upon us in any signification which hath affinity with a literal Sacrifice, either Jewish or Popish. In which respect, and because in the New Testament Gospel-Ministers are never called Priests (as by a peculiar Title) Archbishop Whitgift in his last Book against Mr. Cartwright, p. 722. Mr. hooker's Eccles. Polit. lib. 5. parag. 77. p. 419. speak rather against, than for the use of it, as so limited to restrained.  
The Priesthood of this Nation (saith he) are proved to be a company of covetous greedy dogs, that never have enough. 
Page 34.  And where good Sir, is that proved? or when will it be proved? ad Graecas calendas? not before. But why doth he thus bark at, yea by't the Ministry under the Title of Priesthood? It is very like he thought his Master, Mr. Saltmarsh, had proved it, or could prove it, when he confidently demanded, What is the maintenance of Ministers by Tithes, but Jewish and Popish undeniably? This is some of the vanishing vapour of his Pamphlet, which he calleth The 
“ Pag. 25. See the Answ. to it in my Light for his Smoke, p. 19 Exam. p. 123.  Smoke of the Temple.  
Afterwards Mr. O. reneweth this Reproach again in these words, O ye Priests! ye violently clasp and gripe into your clutches (to maintain you in Lordly Pomp) the Tenths; nay, if all considered, the fifth part of the Nations increase, and poor men's labours, though many from whom you exact them, can hardly get bread for their Families. It is an easy matter to make this saving Doctrine of Tithes, as well as the other of Universal Grace, plausible to carnal and covetous people; and with such, to aggravate the denial of the one, and assertion of the other to an high degree of hatred. But we look for Reason, not Railing, to evince the unlawfulness of Tithes, and with Mr. O. and his party, not so impotently to rail, prattle or scribble against them, as they use to do, but seriously and solidly to set upon the Confutation of those which plead their lawful Tenure, against their cavils and clamours who except against them. And because it may be they know not who they be, if they have any heart to undertake such a Task, they may be better acquainted with them by the Catalogue at the end of this Discourse. And if the Books be too many for them to meddle with, let them confute but three of them; one of Sir Clement Spelman an English, another of Sir James Sempell a Scottish Knight, the third of Mr. Prynne. I choose them before others, not only because they have written very sufficiently and fully of the point in question, but because they cannot be justly suspected of partiality, since none of them ever had any Ministerial Function for their Calling, nor any Ministerial Maintenance for their Living: And if they will confine themselves to one only, let it be that of M. Prynne, whose integrity hat been eminently tried, and yet was never tainted. And that they may presently perceive what his Tenet is, I will set down the summary Contents of his Book, as he hath set it forth in the Title-page. But besides Mr. O. his quarrel against the maintenance of Ministers, he chargeth them with Covetousness in an excessive degree, calling them greedy dogs, who can never have enough.  
A Gospel Plea (interwoven with a Rational and Legal) for the Lawfulness and continuance of the ancient settled Maintenance and Tenths of the Ministers of the Gospel; proving, That there is a just, competent, comfortable Maintenance due to all lawful, painful Preachers and Ministers of the Gospel, by Divine Right, Institution, and express Texts and Precepts of the Gospel; That Glebes & Tithes are such a maintenance, and due to Ministers by Divine Right, Law and Gospel; That if substracted or detained, they may lawfully be enforced by coercive Laws & Penalties; That Tithes are no real burden nor grievance to the people; The abolishing them no benefit to Farmers, Husbandmen, or poor people, but a prejudice and loss; That the present opposition against Tithes proceeds not from any real grounds of Conscience, but base covetousness, carnal policy, and a Jesuitical and Anabaptistical design to subvert and ruin our Ministers, Church, Religion. With a satisfactory Answer to all Cavils and material Objections to the contrary. By William Pryn of Swainswick Esq.  
Words bad enough for Hippolytus Cardinal of Medicis, 
Hist. of the Council of Trent, lib. 2. p. 251.  Pope Clement the sevenths' Nephew, who had by his gift all the Benefices of the world, Secular and Regular Dignities and Parsonages, simple and with Cure, being vacant, for six months, to begin from the first day of his possession, with power to dispose and convert to his use all the Fruits:  
Or bad enough for the Popish Priests in King Henry the eighths' time, against whom these Articles, with divers others, 
Mart. Hist. of 20 Kings, pag. 381, 382.  were exhibited: Besides their Ecclesiastical Bentfices, they became Farmers of great Granges, taking them in Lease in every Shire, and became Husbandmen and Graziers, many of them kept Tanning-houses, and were Brokers, Buyers and Engrossers, snatching up all, and enforcing Tradesmen to buy those Commodities at the second or third hand at unreasonable prices; yea, divers ignorant men among them held and enjoyed 8, 10.12, yea more Benefices and Spiritual promotions severally, and yet lived not upon any of them.  
Too bad for such as were under the Bishop's Government, when one man had two Benefices, a Deanery, and an Arch-deaconry, as D. D. of A. and some had more both in value and variety than he had. But since by the late Reformation Pluralities are taken away by Authority, and Ministers are now confined to, and contented with the Revenue of a single Incumbency, (and some of them I am sure refused to be double-beneficed while the Law did allow them) what ground or colour can Mr. O. have for such an outrageous Reproach? or what motive, but his own malice, and the instinct of the accuser of the Brethren, Rev. 12.10. thus all-to-be-slander them, not only in condemning their Title to Tithes as Jewish and Popish (as before is observed) but in charging them with clasping and gripping into their Clutches a fifth part of the Nations increase? Wherein 

1. He implicitly taxeth God's dealing with his own peculiar Nation the Jews, as guilty of partiality to the Priests, and of oppression of the people; for the proportion paid from the one to the other, was much more than the Ministers of England receive or require of their Parishioners.  
2. When he numbereth 8432 parishes in England, 
Disp. p. 7. Exam. p. 29.  as divers times he doth: 

1. According to his manner, he quotes no Author for it; and I find a difference betwixt him, and those who have been more diligent in Inquisition, and more exact in computation than he, 
Speeds Catal. of Religious houses, etc. at the end of the Reign of K. H. S. p. ult. of that Catalogue.  as Mr. Speed, who reckoneth but 8327 in England, and in Wales 905: in both, 9232.  
2. Of so many parishes in divers Counties, the greatest part of the increase tithable, is taken up by the Title of Impropriations, whereof the Incumbent Minister hath no part.  
3. Where there is a Minister possessed of a Legal Right to require and receive Tithes, it is not in his power to clasp or gripe into his Clutches, as Mr. O. malignantly phraseth it, any more than his due: The Parishioner who hath all the Ten parts within his compass, may easily lessen his portion, yea he may take all the ten parts into his possession, and put him to sue for his tenth part, as one who took that defrauding Doctrine from Mr. O. his Church (though now he be gone beyond it, whither he, as well as Mr. Fisher, may follow and overtake him) and by the practice of it, hath for three years together rob the Minister of his Right, inning it with his own nine parts into his Barn, and persisting in his dishonest dealing with such Impudence, as to contemn the Law, and to call him Thief, who doth but with lenity and mildness require an account of his injurious dealing. And hence it cometh to pass, that there is a vast difference betwixt the true value of a Benefice, and that which it yields to the Incumbent Pastor; that may be well worth 400 pounds per Annum, and this not amount to half so much hire to him that laboureth in the Word and Doctrine: And many can speak much herein upon certain experience, and yet many times a racked rate and estimation is set upon them both, that there may be more colour to oppress the Minister by Taxes and other expenses. 
M. O. Exam. p. 325.  But where is that Lordly Pomp he speaks of maintained by such clasping and gripping into the Clutches of the priests? Where are those pompous priests to be seen? There was a time when the Popish Secular Clergy were a scandal to their Regular Clergy, 
Bern. Ser. 133. in cant.  as in the time of Bernard especially, when that devout Abbot set them forth in their pomp and pontificalibus, wearing gold in their Bridles, gold in their Saddles, gold in their Spurs, having their Tables abounding with variety of meats meats and drinks, over flowing with surfeiting and drunkenness; which yet hath been exceeded by some English Clergymen, as by George Nevil Archbishop of York, 
See Godw. Ca talog. of Bish p. 612. in Ed. 4 time, an. 1466 Mart. Hist. of Eagl. p. 368. in H. S. his reign.  who at the Feast of his Installation (the greatest that ever was for any of his rank) was attended with Earls and Lords, and by Cardinal Wolsey, who was served with Dukes and Earls when he washed his hands. The Bishops since the Reformation of Queen Elizabeth being by Office Lords of the Upper House of Parliament, and having precedence before Lords Temporal, were pompous and Lordly enough: but since by this last Reformation, the Hierarchy is come down, and their Revenues gone, I do not think but it will be very hard for Mr. O. to find out a Minister (a parish Minister) that liveth in Lordly pomp, or any thing like it; and therefore by charging them first with ravenous Avarice, and afterwards with Lordly pomp (as if according to that of the Orator, That which they got with greediness, they lavished out in Luxury) is not their double sin, but his double slander; 
Quod per scelus adeptus est; per luxuriam effundit. Cicer Orat. pro Q●.  not their guilt, but his gall and guile to make them odious, which yet with judicious Readers may produce a contrary effect; and the od●um he intends against them, may recoil upon himself, for charging upon Oxthodox Ministers such notorious and extravagant untruths; of which Calling there are now more good and fewer bad (blessed be God) than ever they were in any Age: And therefore such excessive Revile of them are not only most unjust, but most unseasonable.      
Yet he hath not done with the slander of Covetousness, for to render the Parochial Ministers more worthy of reproach, and less capable of excuse for that Crime, and indeed hopeless of all cure. His next Charge, That this iniquity came in with the first foundation of Parochial Divisions; and so as he saith, though most untruly and absurdly of Churches, it will follow it cannot be reform.  
Fifthly, Therefore to give you his own words, 
Exam. p. 32.  The end why England was first divided into parishes, was, at first, to distinguish the flock asunder, that so the shepherds, or rather the sheep-shearers, saith he, might know where to look for their fleeces. And to this he addeth a Marginal Note, as corrupt a Gloss as the Text, and the Note is this, A work they can well enough away with still, or any thing else that makes for their honour or profit, the two things on which the Priesthood— moveth. Was that the first or chief end of dividing England into Parishes? what proof have you of that Mr. O? your second-hand citation of Mr. Saltmarsh out of the book of learned Mr. Selden De Decimis? I believe you have no better: and how little credit is to be given to that Testimony (as you bring it in) you may read by review of mine answer to it.  
If you had read Mr. S. you might have learned to make a more charitable construction of limiting public Ministries, and allowing maintenance for Ministers, 
Selden Hist. of Tithes. c. 9 p. 259.  who writeth thus of them: when devotion grew firmer, and most Laymen of fair estates desired the Country-residence of some Chaplains, who before lived in common with the Bishops, that they might be always ready for instruction of them, their families and adjoining Tenants, etc. That was the first and chief end of building Oratories and Churches, and of endowing them with peculiar maintenance from the founders for the Incumbents, which should there only reside: and where we read of the division of the Province of Canterbury into Parishes by Honorius Archbishop thereof: the reason rendered is, that he might appoint particular Ministers to particular Congregations: those are the words of the 
* Godwins Catalogue of Bishops. p 52.  Eccles. Historian, which point to the work of the Minister among the people in the Church, not to his reward from the people, either in the fields of corn, or flocks of sheep.  
He hath many other reviling terms, which brought together, would make a great bundle of unsavoury weeds: but I pass over, conceiving a less proportion like a poysie, may suffice to show the bitterness of his spirit towards Ministers, and Churches in general. I will add but one reproach more against Doctor Brian in particular, which I may not omit to remember and refute; 
Exam. p. 29.  it is in the Epilogue of his latter Book: Had I time, as I have not (saith he) by being maintained like you by the sweat of other men's brows, as I desire not, etc. In which words are implicitly comprised a Negative Thesis, that a man, especially a Minister, should not be maintained by the sweat of other men's brows; and a Positive Hypothesis that Doctor Brian is so maintained.  
For the first; if since God laid the Law upon Adam, that in the sweat of his face he shall eat bread, Gen. 3.19. it hath been unlawful for one man, especially for Ministers, to live by the labours of the people, why did God maintain his worship by the Ministry of the Levites in that manner all along the old Testament? and if it be unlawful under the new Testament for Evangelical Ministers to be corporally supported by those who are spiritually instructed by them; why did the Apostle say, 1 Cor. 9.11. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it much, if we reap your carnal things? And doth not Solomon say, the King himself is served by the field, Eccles. 5 9 and yet he doth not, nor is it fit he should put his hand to the plough as you do? nay it is so far from being a fault, to live by the labour of another, that we must one labour for another, in one kind or other: and there is a sweat of the brain as well as of the brow; And you, methinks Mr. O. should experimentally know them both to be painful, and that of the brain more painful of the two, unless you preach by Enthusiasm, without any study: for of the sleep of a labouring man, Solomon saith, it is sweet, Eccles. 5 12. (i. e.) the bodily labour: but the labour of the brain will not suffer; and the fault is not for a King or a Councillor, or a Judge, or a Warrior, a Minister, or an Artificer to live by the sweat of the Husbandman's brows; for without his labour no society of men could subsist: but to live idle like a Drone among the Bees, to take no pains for his living; for such idle persons should not live by the Apostles sentence; when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat, 2 Thes. 3.10. This for Mr. O. his Thesis; now for his Hypothesis, as to Doctor Brian compared with himself; he is not (saith he) maintained like Doctor Brian, with the sweat of other men's brows, if he mean that he liveth idle, so as not to deserve his maintenance of those for whom he labours, he knows neither his worth nor his work: if he did, and were (as he is) an Adversary, and as such an one, would not withhold the truth in unrighteousness, as Rom. 1.18. he would confess him as able, as painful, powerful and profitable a Minister (no disparagement to any) as any of his knowledge this day in England, and well worthy of a far more liberal salary than he receiveth; for besides his preach, which are very frequent, both on the Sabbath, and on the week day, he catechizeth daily from house to house every person in every family within his parish, and yet doth much good service in other places, as just occasion requireth, and opportunity serveth, both as a learned man, and as a godly Minister: and were he Minister of a Country Parish, where Mr. O. labours as an Husbandman, I would endeavour to persuade him to pay him Tithes, with the words of Augustine, that worthy African Doctor, and famous Disputant, 
Meus est homo quem feci, mea est terra quam colis, mea sunt semina quae spargis, mea animalia quae fatigas, meae sunt imbres & pluviae, & ventorum flamina mea sunt, meus est solis calor; & cùm omnia m●a sunt elementa vivendi, tu qui manus accommodas, solum decimum merebaris: Deus sibi tantum decimum vendicans, nobis omnia donavit, ingrate fraudator & perside, etc. Aug. de Temp. Serm. 219. Tom. 10. p. 640.  or rather the words of God, for he speaks in his name to the Husbandman: Mine is man whom I have made; mine is the earth which thou tillest; mine is the seed which thou dispersest; mine are the  which thou weariest in tillage; mine are the showers of rain which moisten the earth, and make it fruitful; mine are the blasts of winds which fan the air; mine is the heat of the Sun, which warms both earth, and seeds, and plants, and makes them grow; and when all the Elements of life are mine, thou who only lendest thy hand to all these means, and deservedst but a Tenth, hast nine parts, and God hath reserved but a Tenth for himself, and wilt thou withhold that, thou ungrateful and perfidious wretch, wilt thou defraud him of that? pay to God the tenth, lest he bring thee to the tenth, etc.  
The next ill quality which I shall note in Mr. O. is his Partiality, whereof I will give three Testimonies in stead of many more, which I might produce out of his examination of the Doctors Reply; one at the beginning of it in his Epistle, as he styleth it, To the impartial Reader, to which it might be truly added, From a most partial Writer: There he speaketh much against Epistolary prejudice, to make the Readers to reject the opinion which the Writer opposeth, when himself is so forward to commit the same fault, that he is guilty of it in the Title page, where he anticipateth the Readers judgement of the cause (before it be heard) with notorious calumnies of his adversaries part of the difference and egregious flatteries of his own in these words which I have cited in part 
* At pag. 126.  before under another Title, and to another purpose: but in this place it will not be impertinent to set forth more fully his malignant partiality.  
Doctor Brian's Reply to the Answer of his ten first Arguments, levied (saith he) to prove the Parishes of this Nation true Churches, Examined.  
The invalidity of all his answers, his sophistical helps, impertinent self-contradicting allegations are presented to himself and others, to the clearer discovery of the Popish, Political, Antichristian, and like present constitution of the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation, having yet never been true Churches from their very foundation, nor possible to be made true by Reformation, having had never yet any true Gespel-constitution.  
As also the Antichristian Call, Entrance, Doctrine, etc. of the National Ministry in part unvailed.  
With a Confirmation of some of those precious Apostolical truths, so vehemently cried down as Heretical, so far as directly or occasionally there was way made for their vindication; By J. O. an unworthy servant of Jesus Christ, and of his poor despised Church. To which he annexeth two Texts of Scripture, Jer. 15.14, 15. and Revel. 18.11, 15. both against Babylon.  
That which in all this is principally now to be noted is his palpable partiality, and most apparent contradiction betwixt the contents of his Title page, and his Epistle to the Reader: but withal, I might observe many gross untruths, both against the Doctor and the Churches, owned and defended by him, and against the Call, Entrance, and Doctrine of the National Ministry, which he calleth Antichristian; when, for aught I can perceive by the printed Disputation, or his Examination, he doth not know who is Antichrist, or what is Antichristian. But these are met withal elsewhere in this discourse, as just occasion required. For the present I shall only commend unto the Reader this observation of Mr. John Onley and his adherents, viz. that most indiscreetly and absurdly they usually renounce that which in the Romanists is agreeable to the Dictates of Reason, Conscience, and Scripture, as Popish and Antithristian, as I have already showed in this Chapter, and agree with them in that which is truly popish and Antichristian, as Error, Pride, Schism, Censoriousness, Malice, Slander, sophistical Subtlety, as their writings and do do declare, especially Mr. J. O. in his dealing with Doctor Brian, in his unfaithful publication of the disputation at Kenelmworth, and in his other bitter and insolent Book of Examination afterward.  
The second proof of his partiality is this; when Doctor Brian hath proved our Churches of England to be true Churches of Christ by convincing arguments; 
Nam quae non prosunt singula, juncta valent. Disp. p. 6.  (convincing if taken together, though all of them be not of equal evidence and vigours) all that avails nothing towards Mr. O. his satisfaction, unless he prove an impertinency to the Question, viz. That they were true Churches from their very foundation, that is, as he explaineth himself more fully elsewhere, that all the parishes of this Nation, in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints, and that those Churches gathered by preaching only 500 
Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply. p. 30, 37. Ibid. p. 24. Disp. p. 5.  years before Augustine the Monk, were such as our Parishes now are, or that they are such now, as they were then: and this he maketh the life of the Doctor's cause; and if he prove not this (saith he) he doth nothing, whereas it is neither the life nor limb of his cause; no, neither hair nor nail of it; neither a skirt nor an hem: but indeed meet nothing to the purpose. And therefore the Doctor did justly and discreetly decline it as impertinent, saying, it is our Churches present, not their primitive state which I undertake to vindicate; and this upon very good reason. For,  
First, The Churches, whose primitive constitution was the best and nearest to that of the Apostler, both in time, matter, and form, as that of Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, and the Churches of Asia, long since are fallen from the faith, and have unchurched themselves by their Apostasy.  
Secondly, It is but a Jesuitical evasion from the pertinency and life of the cause of a true Christian Church, to wave the present qualifications and notes of it, and to put all the weight and stress of the trial upon the Historical report of precedent times; as while we prove our Church to be a true Church, and our Faith a true Faith by the Scriptures, as Doctor Featley d●d against Fisher the Jesuit, that would be taken for no good proof with him, unless he deduced the visibility of the Protestant Professors, through all ages from the Apostles to Luther's time; and he professed he would not proceed in the dispute, unless that were first done, as is observed before.  
Thirdly, If it were pertinent, and were also proved by Chronological History, it would serve but to make up a mere Humane and Historical Faith, which is not effectual to Salvation; and the doubt of it where it is required and not proved (as it is no easy matter to do) may raise perplexing doubts and fears of salvation in weak, though well-minded Christians; as causing suspicious conceits of their being in a true Church, out of which, as out of Noah's Ark (the common saying is) none are saved.  
Yet this unsound and groundless assertion of his, which hath neither proof of Scripture, Reason, or of any humane Author of credit or account, be not only putteth into the very front of his Examination (frontinulla fides) but repeateth it over and over, both in the Disputation and Examination, to puzzle the simple Hearers of the one, and Readers of both; 
Disp. p. 1, 6, 7, 12. Exam. p. 11, 12, 13, 24, 27, 28, 30, 37.  and to make them believe that there was somewhat in it, which made the Doctor afraid to meddle with it; whereas it was a mere extravagancy from the question in hand, which to such as are intelligent, shows Mr. O. to be a Jesuitical shifter; and that he may appear more and worse than a Jesuit, he taketh upon him to be a Pope, peremptorily defining tanquam ex Cathedra Pestilentiae, not only that our Churches have never been true Churches from the foundation of them, but that it is not possible for them to be made true by reformation. Thus in the Title page of his Examination, wherein his ignorance, confidence, and imprudence are all of them superlative, and worthy of none other answer then a scornful silence.  
Yet the other part of his partiality which now I am to prove, will implicitly at least confute it fully; for he that is so injurious, as to impose upon the Doctor such an impertinency, as the life of his cause, and to regard none of his proofs, though never so pregnant, for the truth of our Churches, is so gracious to his own side, as to resolve that a true Church may be constituted thus, A company of true Believers assembled in the Name of Christ, willing to follow him in the way of his ordinances revealed in his word, and yet seeing their want of a personal succession, and yet knowing it their duty, and the will of Christ, it should be performed, did appoint one that was unbaptised to reassume and set afoot this ordinance of Christ. And if so, how partial is Mr. O. who makes it impossible for our Churches to be made true by any reformation? for how easy a matter is it for Churches to be reform after that manner?  
The third partiality of Mr. O. appeareth in his Epistle to his Schismatical Sister-Churches, where he taketh upon him to make a long Paraphrase on the words of Ananias to Saul, Acts 22.18. but when Doctor Brian makes but a short one on the words of Peter, Acts 2.39. The promise is made to you and to your Children: saying, if the promise be made to believers and their children, the command must reach not only to them but to their children, as running thus, be baptised you and your children, for the promise is made to you and to your children.  
To this Mr. O. in a jeering manner replye●●, As if Peter Were not wise enough to express his own meaning, to direct us who should be, or the grounds upon which they should be baptised, without your priestly prudence: surely might you have come to the honour, or been worthy to have been a Dictator to Peter, you would have taught him to have said some what from whence Infants right of Baptism might have been proved. With this partiality appeareth a spice of his insolency formerly observed. But if Doctor B●ian had been worthy, and had taken upon him to play the Dictator, he had acted that part a great deal better, by deducing Infant's Baptism from the words of Peter, then Mr. O. did, dictating such an Aphorism out of his own fancy, concerning necessary recourse to the primitive constitution of a Church, to prove it to be a true Church at present, which we have now examined and refuted.  
The fourth partiality I shall mention is this; he will not be turned over by Dr. Brian to Mr. Hollingworth for satisfaction concerning the name Parish, and parochial precincts; 
Exam p. 22, 23. Disp. p. 48.  yet in a matter of greater difficulty (as the setting up of Church-ordinances by an unbapt zed person) he turns his Reader over to an obscure Treatise, entitled, The way to Zion: and Doctor Brian citing Mr. baxter's 27 Arguments for Church-membership, Mr. O. puts him off with Mr. Fisher's Reply, 
Exam. p. 128.  in his imagination proving the contrary, where he hath this ill hap to make his reference, and to bestow a commendable Epithet upon a Quaker (for such an one is Mr. Fisher now become) and as such an one Mr. O. must be a sharp adversary against him, 
Epist. p. 15, 16, 17. Disp. p. 15, 18, 19 Exam. p 32, 38, 39, 42, 43, 45, 47, 50.  unless he will be partial in that also; for he writes sharply against the Quakers. But Mr. Baxter is a more rational, religious, sound, and settled Divine, then that there can be any fear at all that he will ever turn or become so wretched a changeling.  
I will take but one exception more out of the two Books of his publication, and that is concerning the Civil Magistrate, against the exercise of whose authority in matters of Religion he often uttereth his dislike, especially as it is assistant to Ministers in the Ministerial function; whereof I will mention but one passage of some importance, 
Exam. p. 53. margin.  though it be with him but in a Marginal note, which is this; [The Sword of the Magistrate being your best relief, without which I think you would live but a while.] Whereof his meaning may be, that their authority maintains the Ministers public maintenance, without which they could not subsist. But consider the spiteful spirit of him and his Sect against them, as supposing them and their Churches to be Romish, Popish, Antichristian, and Babylonish; and so would have them used no better than Babylon (but would stir up mortal enemies against them, as against her, according to that of J●r. 50.14, 15. in the Text set in the Title page of Mr. O. his examination) there is a just cause of jealousy, by that speech, of as malicious a meaning as may be towards them, because of the affinity of their principles with those of the Donatists, and of their consanguinity in practice with the bloody-minded 
* Ad hanc haeresin, id est, Donatist. ●in Africa, & illi pertinent qui appellantur Circumcellinnes, genus homi●ū agreste, & famosissimae audaciae, non solum in a lios immania facinora perpetrando, sed, etc. Aug. d● haeres. Tom 6. p. 33.  Circumcellions, to which Sect they are sorted by Augustine in his Catalogue of Heresies.   

CHAP. X. A Conclusive Answer to Doctor Brian's desire of Advice (whether it be better to let Mr. O. alone, or to answer him according to his folly) sent him a good while ago by his Son, but now published with enlargement, for satisfaction of others as well as of the Doctor himself: Reasons many and weighty for the Negagative.  
WHat was my mind (in answering your request by your Son when he brought you Letter, the Disputation at Kenelmworth, and Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply, after the reading of what you sent me, and writing of these Papers I now send you) in the same I persist with stronger confidence than I had at first; and for it I shall now give you clearer and fuller evidence of the expedience of my Advice then at that time I could do, which was the same that Hezekiah gave to his people concerning railing Sabshtkah, answer him not, a Kings 18.16. and Isa. 36.21.  
My Reasons are,  
First, I thought you came much below the elevation of your own worth, when you entered the Lists with an illiterate man, as Mr. J. O. is, albeit of a wrangling wit; though there was a kind of necessity I confess at that time, for the exercise of your humility upon his proud challenge, as of your ingenuity and ability in the conflict.  
Secondly, I suspected your confidence in committing the copy of your dispute to his publication by the Press, would be abused by him, and so I believe it was more ways than one, as I have showed.  
Thirdly, I saw the arrogancy of the man's spirit in the Title page of his Examination, which made me deem him an indocible Sophister, far from the good mind of Hierom, who desired proficiency in what is good, and to change his mind from any thing that is bad. 
Utinam mihi sic semper disputare contingat, ut ad meliora proficiens— deseram quod malè tenebam. Hieron. ●dve●sus Luciserian. vol. 2. p. 147. Disp p. 33.  Yourself had some experience of his refractory humour; when though he did or might have heard from your mouth a satisfactory discourse, in vindication of the Ministry of England, wherein all that he had objected, and much more was fully answered; yet he said, that you would not, or could not prove it a true Ministry.  
Fourthly, I observed how perversely he dealt with you, in imposing unreasonable conditions upon you in disputation, wherein if you did not satisfy him, all you did was nothing; whereas that with him of so great moment was nothing to the purpose, as I have showed: and in a wilful refusal to consult with any Author of your proposal for his satisfaction. You turn me over to Mr. Hollingworth (saith he) in answer to which shift, I tell you once more, in that path I will not follow you; for in this controversial age, so many books have been written on both sides, if we should take this way, when should we answer ourselves? To return each other to others works, you may find me (and I could you as easily) work till you are weary, to answer all books, 
Mr. O. Exam. p. 22, 23.  pro and con, about this subject; then in doing of which (seeing enough is said already) I hope to employ myself better.  
For what you shall answer yourself, either of yourself, or by the pens of others transcribed for yourself, let it be Mr. Hollingworth, 
Ibid.  or who it will be, I will not decline the answering thereunto; but at your return to them I will not go, it being you I deal with. Wherein refusing your offer, he renders a reason which makes against him, viz because in this controversial age, so many books be written on both sides; why then should any more be added by you and him of the same controversy, when they have been more accurately discussed already by writing and printing, then by polemical concertation in discourse (whereof much is merely extemporary) they are like to be? And he saith, he hopeth to employ himself better; and if he can employ himself better then by reading such Books, as were advisedly and deliberately dictated, to satisfy such as doubt, and settle doubtful Readers in the truth in question; sure you may employ yourself better, then in putting yourself to the pains and expense of time, to write out Arguments and Answers for his sutisfaction; because he wants the books you direct him to, or will not be at cost to buy them, or trouble to peruse them; and if he did read them, would bring a resolution rather to cavil at them, then to receive resolution from them. When you have leisure to wash a Black-moor, you may spare some time to spend upon your selfconceited and selfwilled adversary Mr. J. O. for such an one will every judicious man judge him to be, who reads with indifferency the Disputation and Examination published by him against you.  
Fifthly, you have too much precious work in your hands every day, then that you can warrantably lay any part of it aside, to contend with such an obstinate adversary as Mr. Onley is; and I am verily persuaded, and I assure myself, many that know your various and uncessant pains for the souls of your people of Coventry, are of my mind, that thereby you do more good in a week there, than you shall do by disputing with, or writing against a perverse Anabaptist a whole year together.  
Sixthly, There are so many now engaged in the defence of the Churches of Christ (for now Mr. O. sets himself against all the Churches of Europe, and New England, besides Old England) that so much work cannot in reason fall to your share, as still to manage the defence of them all against him, or any such obstreperous talker; especially having such a weighty burden of pastoral employment continually upon you.  
Seventhly, If you should set all aside, and encounter him at the Press, as you have done by Disputation in the Church, it would be to little purpose or profit, both in respect of Mr. O. and of his party. For,  
First for him, unless you answer him in every particular how impertinent soever, you shall still be under his exception and insultation, to the great prejudice both of your cause & person; for he not only taxeth you for deficient answering already, saying, to a great part of his answer you have not said one word, and that your Reply passeth over just half his Answer, without a word of Reply. 
Exam. of Dr. ●…. Rep. p. 28. Ibid. p. 115.  But such is his insolency, that (as if he had authority to prescribe your part of the controversy, as well as to dispose of his own) he layeth this severe Law upon you, if you contest with him again, exactly to answer to each particular plainly and downrightly by reasons and Scriptures directly to the purpose, or else to confess you cannot, by saying nothing. Neither so nor so; For datur tertium, a man may silently pais by an especial part of his Book written in defence of a precious truth, 
Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply, p. 69.  as he phraseth it, that is, Universal Redemption, because it is discovered to be a pernicious error, and abundantly confuted by Doctor Kendal, in answer to M. John goodwin's Book called Redemption Redeemed; and another part as impertinent as that so often inculcated position of Mr. O. Of the first constitution of Churches; and another part is answered by Dr. Br. before, as that for the Vindication of the Ministry of England: no need then of confessing you can say nothing, 
Disp. p. 33.  because you do not say all things as he appointeth you. Mr. Fisher made a more modest resolution concerning his adversary and himself; If any one answer (saith he) and I have satisfaction from him to the contrary, he shall hear of my Recantation; if I have not, he shall see it by my silence. 
Mr. Fisher in his answer to Nobody in 5 words. p 465.  So may you better signify your dissatisfaction with Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply by your silence, then endeavour his satisfaction by a printed answer unto it, and that upon his reason, viz because he would not lose any more time from preaching, at I see I must (saith he) if I meddle any more at the Press with this subject.  
Secondly, It would be to as little purpose and profit, in respect of his party, 
Vestra solum legitis, vestra amatis, caetera causâ incognitâ condemnatis. Cicer. l. 2. de nature. deorum. p. 216. Medicamenta nesciunt, & insani sunt adversus antidotum quâ sani esse potuissent, Aug. confess. l. 9 c. 4.  who are so possessed with prejudice against your cause by their teachers, odious invectives and exclamations against you, your Church and Ministry as Popish and Antichristian, that they will not only not buy, but not so much as look upon an Apology for you, being sick of the perverse partiality which the Orator reproveth in some Philosophical Heretics of his time, You read only what is written for your own side (saith he) and love only what is your own, for other things you condemn them, the cause unheard. And as Agustine observeth of some of like distempered passions, though so much the worse, as errors in Divinity are worse than errors in Philosophy: They know not what is Physic for them, and are mad (saith he) against the Medicine which shouldoure them of their madness. Such are many of the besotted Proselytes of seducing Teachers of the present age.  
In respect of such froward and perverse opposites, as both they and they leaders (for the most part) manifest themselves, silence may sometimes be more seasonable than Replications and Rejoinders: for, 
Quorum dicta contraria si toties refellere velimus, quoties obnixa fronte statuerunt non carere quid dicant, dum quomodocunque nostris disputationibus contradicant, quàm infinitum & aerumnosum & infructuosum? etc. Aug. de Civit. Dei l. 2. c. 1. Tom. 1. p. 63.  as Augustine putteth the case, If we should set ourselves to refel the contrary Tenets of those who have hardened their foreheads, so as to resolve they will have somewhat to say, so they may any way gainsay our disputations, how endless, how grievous, how unprofitable will our trouble be?  
Eighthly, If there were a necessity that Mr. O. should be further answered by you, or some body for you, you have three Sons, the youngest of whom would be able enough to undertake him by an Examination and Conviction of his Examination of error and slander, of pride and vanity: but neither would I have any of them put to so unprofitable a Task, because I hear they are all of them daily employed in better work. Therefore,  
Ninthly, If after these Animadversions upon him and his Book, it be requisite to take any further course to take down the Tympany of Mr. O. his swelling self-conceit, I shall propose it to the serious considerations of our Venerable Society, at their meeting at Kenelmworth, to invite him to a public Disputation there once again, to be ordered and managed according to the Rules forementioned. So you have mine advice as you desired, with what I further promised; for which, if any thing be worthy of your acceptance and theirs, who are our Brethren in interest and affection to the cause wherein you first, and now I am publicly engaged, I desire your thanks to God for it, and prayers for me.  
Yours in the dearest relations of Christianity and Friendship, JOHN LEY.    

The Catalogue of Books in defence of the lawfulness of Tithes promised before in Chap. 9  

1. THe maintenance of the Ministers of the Gospel, by Rich. Eburne. printed 1619. for Eleazar Edgar, to be sold at the Windmill in Paul's Churchyard, in 4 to  
2. The Scourge of Sacrilege, by Sam. Gardener, DD. printed for Tho. Man, 1611. 8vo.  
3. Tithes examined and proved due to the Clergy by Divine Right, by George Carlton, for Clement Knight at the Lamb in Paul's Churchyard, 1611. in 4 to.  
4. Revenue of the Gospel, by Fulk Roberts, printed by Cantrel Log at Cambridge, 1613, in 4 to.  
5. The Anatomy of Ananias, or God's censure against Sacrilege, by R. G. printed by C. L. at Cambridge, 1616. 4 to.  
6. Levi his complaint, by Will. Guild of Edenbury, 1617. in 4 to.  
7. Sacrilege sacredly handled, by Sir James Sempel, printed at London for Edm. Weaver, 1619. to be sold at the great North door of Paul's, in 4 to.  
8. Animadversions on Mr. Seld. Hist. of Tithes, by Rich, Tollesley, printed by John Bill, 1619. in 4 to.  
9 Diatribe upon the first part of the Hist. of Tithes, by Rich. Montague, for Mattk. Lownes, printed 1621. in 4 to.  
10. The poor Vicar's Plea, by Tho. Reeves Dr. of the Civil Law, printed by John Bill, 1621. in 4 to.  
11. The Question of Tithes Revised, Arg. for the morality of Tithing cleared, by William Sclater DD. printed by John Legate, 1623. in 4 to.  
12. A new discovery of personal Tithes, by Cornelius Burges, printed for William Sheffard in Popes-Head-Alley 1625. in 12 more.  
13. An answer to the Jewish part of Mr. Seld. Hist. of Tithes, by Stephen Nettles, printed at Oxford, 1625. in 4 to.  
14. jacob's Vow, or the true Hist. of Tithes, by Rich. Perrot at Cambridge, by Tho. and John Buck, printed 1627. in 4 to.  
15. Gospel-maintenance, by Rich. Johnson, for Mich-Sparks, printed 1633.  
16. Liberal maintenance manifestly due to the Minister. of the Gosp. by Joshuah Meene, printed for Laur. Chapman at Chancery Lane end in Holborn, Ann. 1638.  
17. The Parson's Law, by William hugh's of Gray's Inn Esq; for the Author printed 1641. in 8vo.  
18. The complete Parson, by John Doderige, for john Grove, printed 1641. in 4 to.  
19 The maintenance of the Sanctuary, for john Maynard at the George in Fleetstreet, near St. Dunstan's Church, printed 1642. in 4 to.  
20. Nolime tangere, Anno 1642.  
21. Tithes remounted and advanced, by Martin Bown for Tho. Bates at the Maidenhead on Snow-hill, near Holborn, printed 1646. in 4 to.  
22. A defence of the Right of Tithes against sundry late scandalous Pamphlets, by E. B. printed by George Miller, 1646. in 4 to.  
23. Sacrilege a Snare, by Lancelot Andrews, for Andr, Heb at the Bell in Paul's churchyard, printed 1646.  
24. The Preachers Plea, by William Tipping Esq; for Christopher Meredith, 1646. in 12 more.  
25. De non temerandis Ecclesiis, by Sir Henr. Spelman at Oxford, for Henry Hall printer there, 1646. in 4 to.  
26. Sir H. Spelmans greater work concerning Tithes, for Philemon Stephens, printed 1647. in 4 to.  
27. An answer to a Letter by Sam. Turner, concerning the Church and Revenue thereof, printed 1647. in 4 to.  
28. The Civil Right of Tithes, by Charles Enterfield, for John Holden at the Anchor in the N. Exchange. 1650. in 4 to.  
29. The muzzled Ox treading out the corn, for Will, Hope at the Unicorn in Cornhill, printed 1650. in 4 to.  
30. The Minister's Hue and Cry. by Rich. Culmer, printed by A. Miller 1651. in 4 to.  
31. The Undeceiv. of the people in point of Tithes, by Philem. Trelaine Gent. for Jo. Clark under Peter's Church in Cornhill, 1651. in 4 to.  
32. The Right of Tithes asserted, 1653. in 4 to.  
33. A second vindication of Tithes against a paper styled, Tithes totally routed by Magna Charta, printed for Tho. Heath, near the Piazza of Coven Garden, printed 1653. in 4 to.  
34. The maintenance of Minist. by Tithes, by John Gauden DD. for Andr. Crook, printed 1653. in 4 to.  
35. Tithes the Churches Right, by the Laws of God, Nature, and this Nation, by Bovil Turminger, for Rich. Lowndes, 1653. in 4 to.  
36. An Apology for pious and painful Ministers, printed for John Wright at the King's head in the Old Bailie, printed 1653. in 4 to.  
37. The Worcester petition to the Parliament for the Ministry of England defended, for Tho Vnderhill, by Fr. Titan, 1653. in 4 to.  
38. A Gospe pl lee for Maint. and Tenths of the Ministers of the Gospel, by Will. Prynne Esq; for Mich. Sparks, printed 1653. in 4 to.  
39 The Civil right of Tithes, proving 1. That the propriety of Tithes is not in the Land-holder. 2. Nor in the State. 3. But in the Incumbent, for john Wright at the King's head in the Old Bailie, printed 1653 in 4 to.  
40. An argument in defence of the Right of Patrons to Advowsons', and of the Right of Tithes, for Edw. Blackmore at the Angel in Paul's Churchyard, printed 1653. in 4 to.  
41. The Parson's Guide, on the Law of Tithes, by W. S. Esq; printed for Will. Lee, D. Pakemere, and G. Bedel, at their shops in Fleetstreet, printed 1654. in 4 to.  
42. The due Right of Tithes examined by an aged Gentleman, for Tho. Pierripont at the Sun in Paul's Churchyard, printed 1654. in 4 to.   
I have more than these, and there are some more which I have not, but these may suffice.