Certain Scruples from THE ARMY: Presented in a DIALOGUE BETWEEN A Minister of the New moulded Presbytery, and a Soldier of his Excellencies (formerly New-moulded, but now despised) ARMY.  
Being the Substance of several Discourses, of the Soldiers with the Ministers in divers parts of the Kingdom. Wherein the doubtfulness of the Ministers new old, or, old new Calling, is manifested, their compelling principle detected: The practice of Soldiers, and others, exercising themselves in the Scriptures, for their mutual edifying, justified.  
By one of the Kingdom's Servants, in the Army.  REVEL 7, 1. 
And after that I saw four Angels stand on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, neither on the Sea, neither on any tree.  JEREM 23.1. 
Woe be unto the Pastors that scatter the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord.  REVEL. 18.24. 
And in her was found the blood of the Prophets, and of the Saints, and of all that was slain upon the earth.  
LONDON, Printed for John Pounset, and are to be sold at his shop, at the Hand and Bible at the lower end of Budgerow, near Canning-street, 1647.   

To the Reader.  
Christian Reader,  
I Have presented to thy view, the state of the several differences, that have been between the Presbyterian Ministers, and such Soldiers of us, as have had occasion to discourse with them, in, and about our several quarters; so fare as they are differences, relateing to such Discourses, as have been between us, by way of Dialogue: Wherein thou mayest see, what they chief blame us for: and what is our defence: we not being conscious to ourselves, of any just offence given by us, for which we deserve to be condemned by them, as men not worthy of common privileges: I have therefore endeavoured, to clear up by the Scripture, that in those things for which we are accused by them, we have done nothing but our duty; wherein we desire to please God, though it displease the great and mighty ones of the world: and indeed, my main aim in writing of this ensuing Discourse, is not so much to clear up our own innocency, as to inform others in the Truth: that so I may be an instrument of their enlightening, which is the longing desire of him, that in this Treatise hath endeavoured, the glory of God, and their good, which if it prove so, will be his greatest joy.  
Farewell, Thine J.P.   

A Dialogue between a Minister of the New-moulded Presbytery, and a Soldier of his Excellencies, formerly New-moulded, but now despised ARMY.  Presbyterian, 
WEll over-taken sir, how fare (if I may be so ●old) do you travel this way.  Sold. 
I am going to the head Quarters at Nottingham.  Pres. 
Then it seems you are a Soldier.  Soul. 
I am so indeed.  Pres. 
I do confess that you Soldiers have done the Kingdom very good service, but you have likewise done very ill service, therefore we must (as our Brother Love lays) reward you for the good service, and punish you for your evil service.  Sould. 
Sir, I pray you answer me two questions; First, I pray sir, what are you? Secondly, what is the evil we Soldiers have done, that so we may know wherefore we are punished? for we are not conscious to ourselves, of any evil service we have done to the State; only we have some among us that are vile enough, but we do what we can to reclaim them.  Pres. 
Sir, to your questions I answer, and to your first, I am a Minister of Christ; and to your second, I answer, it is not because you have some vile persons among you, for that will be, in any Army, therefore that doth not trouble us; but the evil for which you are to be purished, is, that you have sowed the seeds of error, in all the parts of the Kingdom where you have come.  Sould. 
You lay you are a Minister of Christ, and for aught I yet know, it may be so; for I have not as yet had any great acquaintance with you; but whereas you say It is not our vile persons in the Army, which troulde you, but our sowing the seeds of error, that you do intent to punish us for, this makes me doubt, whether you are the Minister of Christ, or no: for I did never hear any of the Ministers of Christ, lay that to our charge; but I have heand them bless God for us, they well knowing, that we have not only done faithful service to the state, in the field, but also have been intraments in the Lord's hand, of enlightening many people in the Land; who also bless the Lord for us.  Pres. 
This you say, but it is not so because you s●● it.  Sould. 
I can produce many witnesses, to confirm the truth of what I say, but if I could not, it were as well proved, as you have proved that we have sown the seeds of error in the Land; and do for that deserve to be punished.  Presb. 
The thing is agreed on by all the Orthodox Divines of bath Kingdoms.  Sould. 
You speak strangely, as if because they say it, it is therefore so, but because you would have it pass for a sound proof; you give them two titles, which are very high, that so the people may not question it. First, you say they are Orthodox, that so none need question the soundness of their judgements; and Secondly, you call them Divines, that so the people may look upon them as Little gods, or somewhat more than men, as they indeed have done, but to tell you my thoughts, I count it little better, than one of the names of Blaspbemie, which are on the Beast, Revel. 17.3. and ought not to be given to any mortal creature. And if it might be attributed to any, then to all the people of God, for, they all partake of the Divine nature, 2 Per. 1.4, and are, or at least ought all to have a Divine employment, (if it may be so called) viz. to search and study the Scriptures.  Presb. 
Then it seems that you would have all to preach?  Sould. 
I confess, I would have it so indeed, but I pray sir, what do you understand preaching to be?  Presb. 
I do understand preaching, to be the taking some part of Scripture, and unfolding of the sense, and applying it to the people for their edifying.  Sould. 
Then by preaching you do not mean so to preach, at the Apostles did, by an immediate inspirations.  Presb. 
No.  Sould. 
Then I suppose all men may preach so, viz. Read the Scriptures, and compare them together, and apply them as they shall be enabled, for their mutual edification, exhortation and comfort.  Presb. 
No, they may not.  Sould. 
Why, I pray you?  Presb. 
For many reasons; at first, they are not learned: secondly, they are not called: thirdly, if they should, it would bring the preaching of Ministers into contempt: for if every Soldier and Tradesman, should preach, and that for mothing, men will not care whether they hear us or no; therefore we have got an Ordinance to prohibit it, and desire a penalty worse than death annexed, to be insticted upon those that shall yet undertake to do it.  Sould. 
These are notable reasons indeed; but let us a little examine them, whether they will hold or no: First you say, they want learning, if by Learning you mean those visible gifts, of tongues, miracles, healing etc. you are as unlearned as they: if you mean by learning, the teachings of the spirit, they are so taught also; but if you mean by learning, the art of tongues, and the Art of Astronomy, or Astrology, or any of the other Arts, learned and taught in the Schools; then I confess they core short of you in Learning: but I conceive, that these in themselves conduce but little to enable a man to Preach.  Presb. 
No, what say you to the gift: of Tongues?  Sould. 
I say it were well if you had it.  Presb. 
Why, have we it not?  Sould. 
No.  Presb. 
Can we not spick divers Tongues?  Sould. 
Yes, by art, but not by gift.  Presb. 
What is the difference?  Sould. 
Very much for first; those that had the gift of tongues spoke as the spirit taught them immediately: Act. 2.4. but you speak as men have taught you in the Schools: Secondly, those that spoke by the gift of tongues, could speak to all Nations under heaven if there were occasion Act. 2.8.9, 10, 11. but if there should be never so much need to speak to drvers Nations, you could speak to no more of them, than those whose speech you had learned in the Schools: Thirdly; these that spoke by the gift of tongues spoke the clear mind of God, in the several tongues, without pervertang either the one, or the other; but you (as I myself have heard) differ among yourselves; one says it is thus in the Original, and another says it is not so: wherein then, do those which you say may not preach, come short of you in that learning which makes us spiritually know the mind of God in the Scriptures?  Presb. 
They know not the original.  Sould. 
I think no more do you, for I suppose you will grant, that there are at least sixteen several Greek Copies; which then is the Original?  Presb. 
What though that cannot be so clearly determined, yet it is sure those that know the tongues, and have learning, are better able to understand the mind of God in the Scriptures, than those that have not learning: and so are more fit to preach.  Sould. 
It is according as they are taught by the Spirit; for if those which you call unlearned, be more learned by the Spirit than they, (though they want the other learning) are most able to understand, and therefore most able to make known, the mind of God to others: and let me tell you, that I think there are as many ignorant men, among those you call Learned, as there is of any one sort of men again in the Kingdom, if you compare number with number, so that I may safely conclude, that those that are taught by the Spirit, whether they be learned or not learned (in you sense) are the most fit, and able to declare the mind of God: and I will prove it by the Scripture, Peter and John, were unlearned, Act. 4.13. Yet able men being thus taught; and I think it will not be denied, but among those five thousand that were, scattered abroad, Act. 8.1. there were unlearned men, yet they went every where preaching the word, for 4. and God did wonderfully bless their preaching so that a great number believed, and turned to the Lord thereby, Act. 11.21 Likewise Stephen was one that for aught we can read, had no learning, but being full of the holy spirit, preached mightily, insomuch that all his adversaries were not able to resist the spirit by which bee spoke. Act. 6.10.  Presb. 
But Stephen was chosen into an office.  Sould. 
But it was only an office to feed the poor, not to preach.  Presb. 
But Stephen did not preach, be did but dispute.  Sould. 
The one is but to declare the mind of God, and so is the other; and I know no great difference, unless you think the one is a more entrenching upon your prerogative then the other.  Presb. 
But Paul was a man that was learned.  Sould. 
I confess he was, but you can hardly find another among all the Disciples of Christ; and I do not well know what good it did him neither: for he made no use of it, in preaching the Gospel.  Presb. 
How do you know that?  Sould. 
He says so himself, 1 Cor. 2.1, 2, 3, 4 5, 6. You see he disclaims all the the wisdom of men, and that which is taught by men, when he came to preach the Gospel.  Presb. 
But doth not Peter say that unlearned ones wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction?  Sould. 
It is true, but if he had meant such unlearned ones, as are unlearned in your sense, it had been sad news to those, or at least to most of those, to whom he wrote, who were the Saints scattered here, and there, throughout Pontus, Galatra, Cappadocia Asia, and B thynia: also Peter himself and his fellows must have been of those that did wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction; and as sad would it have been to the people of God ever since, who cannot be conceived, to be one among five hundred of them learned in humane arts and tongues, but if it had been so, that Peter had meant such unlearned ones, than it would have made your distinction hold, between Clergy, and Laity; for than you only, would be the Lords inheritance.  Presb. 
Well for all your prating we shall have a course taken with you; If you will not give over preaching, and meddle with your own business, we will have you fondly punished.  Sould. 
That is like enough, for many of you schoolmen, have ever been very well read in that kind of learning, to hunt and weary, and suck the blood, of the harmless lambs of Christ; Histories of all ages can witness it.  Presb. 
It seems then that you count learning to be of no use.  Sould. 
Yes, I will tell you of some use that it serves to. As first, that it helps to lift some of you up high above your brethren, and procures you great esteem in the world, and greetings in the Markets, and the uppermost rooms at feasts; and makes you live an idle life, much unlike those Tent making preachers who laboured night and day, with their own bands that they might not be chargeable, 1 Thes 2.9. And there is another use thereof; and that is when any of you fall into an erroneous way, you can draw more after you, than any men: therefore it is said of the false Prophets that they should deceive many: Mat. 24.5. And look upon all the sects that have been broached in the world, and you shall find, that the first broachers, and chief leaders in the same, for the most part, were learned men.  Presb. 
Then it seems you think that there is no good use of learning.  Sould. 
Yes, I do not question but that there is very good use to be made of it; but Sir, you must bear with me, I for my own part, do not know that it makes a man ever the more able, to understand the mind of God in the Scriptures much less that it is the only thing to make a man a Preacher.  Presb. 
I do not say it is the only thing, for there must be that teaching which you speak of, and there must also be an outward call, without which, no man ought to preach.  Sould. 
Sir, I pray you tell me, what you mean by an outward call?  Presb. 
It is a setting apart to the Ministry, by laying on the hands of the Presbytery.  Sould. 
What Presbytery do you mean?  Presb. 
The Ministers.  Sould. 
If this be the only way of making Ministers, then is the Pope, and the Bishops, as true Ministers as you.  Presb. 
No, they are not, for they are Antichristian.  Sold 
Then so are you, for you are Ministers, by their setting you apart, and laying their hands upon you, & it is acknowledged in the ordinance for making Ministers, to be valid, and you know, that Pope Gregory made Augustin the Monk, Bishop of Doribernia, and he made more Bishops, 
Pope Gregory sent a Pall to Augustin into England, giving him power to make 12 Bishops, and to the Bishop of York he promised to give a Pall, when Austin had ordained him that he might make 12 Bishops so, they grew into many hundreds, as it is at this day, Act. & Mon. p. 116.118  and they made more Bishops, and they made more,; and so it passed from hand, to hand, and by your ground, the line of your Ministry must successively come from the Apostles, and I wonder how both ends will hold together, when the middle is taken away: viz. the Popes and Bishops: But because you say, none may preach without this calling, I do desire a proof thereof, for I think the contrary will be proved; although the calling you speak of were granted to be right.  Presb. 
I will prove it, no man takes this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaton Heb 5.4.  Sould. 
you have brought Scripture I confess, but not to your purpose, for it only intends Aaron, and his successors, the type, and Jesus Christ in the antitype, as the 5. Ver. doth declare, and is not at all intended, of the Ministers of the Gospel.  Presb. 
But there is an equity in it, that holds to the Ministers of the Gospel.  Sould. 
I grant that the Ministers of the Gospel ought to have a lawful outward call, which whether that that you plead for be so or no I question. But I shall prove, that preaching the word, in the sense before specified by you, is not tied up in the hands of Ministers; but is the work of every one, that hath learned Christ; as hath in part been proved, and will yet be made more evident. You see in the former quoted place of Acts. 8.4. those that were scattered abroad were not Ministers in office, for those were not scattered abroad. Ver. 1. Yet they preached every where, up and down in the Countries, and were instruments of much people's turning to the Lord, Chap. 11.19.20.21 And when tidings of this came to the Church at Jerusalem, they sent Barnabas, but it was not to punish those ancalled preachers (as I perceive you should have done) but rather to encourage them; and when bee was came, he was glad to see the grace of God, accompanying their work, and instead of telling the people, that they must take heed of such besi●odies, as had been among them, or the like; he exhorted them with purpose of heart they should cleave to the Lord, Ver. 23: he did well in it, for the text adds, he was a good man, and full of the holy Spirit, ver. 24.  Presb. 
I grant that those in Act. 8. did preach, but it was in a time of persecution.  Sould. 
Then it seems by your speeches, that when you have got the power (which you so much labour for) to persecute us, we may preach; but I think, that if it be lawful in time of persecution, it is also lawful in time of peace; for we must not do the least evil, that the greatest good may come of it.  Presb. 
But that was when there was but few Ministers; so that there was then more need of their preaching, then there is now.  Sould. 
There was never any need of an evil practice, to accomplish the work of God; and if it had been an evil act, the Apostles would not have sat still at Jerusalem, Act. 8.17 and suffered these men, to have gone preaching, up and down the Countries, but would forthwith have substituted some to be officers to have done it, and forbade the other. But I will give you more Scripture, that so by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established: you may see, in Phil. 1.14. Paul tells the Philipians, that his bonds had caused many of the Brethren in the Lord, to speak the word without fear.  Presb. 
But by your favour sir, he meant the Ministers.  Sould. 
No sir, He did not mean the Ministers, for he says, That many of the Brethren in the Lord were emboldened to speak the word without fear: if he had meant the Ministers he could not have said, Many of the Brethren; for there could not be many Ministers at Rome, for we read but of one Church there; so that I suppose there was not above two or three Ministers at the most, for aught that can be gathered.  Presb. 
But I do believe they were Ministers, of whom the Apostle spoke; this is but your own interpretation.  Sould. 
Then I pray you sir, let us hear your interpretation.  Presb. 
I say they were Ministers; for otherwise the Apostle would have reproved them for Preaching.  Sould. 
That I deny, for the Apostles never forbade any to preach, but she only that preached by the spirit of the Devil, Act. 16.17, 18. But did rejoice that Christ was preached, though out of envy, Phil. 1.15.18,  Presb. 
Then you think if the Maid in Act. 16. had not spoke by the spirit of the devil, the Apostle would not have forbade her to preach.  Sould. 
No, why should he?  Presb. 
I thought where I should have you, than it seems women and all may preach, by your grounds?  Sould. 
Yes, for it is warranted by Scriptures; for I know no difference between preaching, and prophesying; for prophesying is to speak to edification, exhortation, and comfort. 1 Cor. 14.3. and it is clear that women may prophesy, 1 Cor, 11.5. Where the Apostle saith. Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth, having her head uncovered, dishonoureth her head: so then, she may both pray and prophesy with her head covered. The woman of Samaria brought many of her City to believe in Corist, by her testify●● what she had heard, and learned of Christ, Joh. 4.39. Priscilla did preach the way of God more perfectly, to him that was a Preacher of it before, Act. 18.26. Paul intreateth his true yoke fellow, to help those women, which laboured with him in the Gospel, Phil. 4.3 we see Paul was a man of a gallant, free, selfdenying spirit he did rejoice if Christ was preached, either by men or women; he did not fear the eclipsing of his own glory (he stood more upon the glory of God) notwithstanding he knew some did preach to that end, Phil. 1.16.  Presb. 
Doth not Paul forbidden women to preach, 1 Cor. 14 34. Yea, even commands them to keep silence in the Church?  Sould. 
It's true, in the Church he forbids them, but out of the Church he leaves them to their liberty; but in the same Chapter he allows all the members except women, to use their gifts, as ver. 1, 24 26.31. The next place of Scripture I shall give you is 1 Pet. 4.10, 11. the words are, As every man hath received the gift, even so let him minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.  Presb. 
But the Apostle speaks inverse 9 of Hospitality.  Sould. 
It is true; but ver. 10. he speaks of manifold grace: so that if he did mean outward things, he meant spiritual things also, and ver. 11. he says; If any man speak, let him speak as the Oracles of God.  Presb. 
But be meant the Ministers.  Sould. 
If he did, he meant others also, for he bids them minister one to another: and I hope you will not say that Ministers must only minister to Ministers.  Presb. 
I see you can talk for yourself well, but we shall have you talk some where else, ere long.  Sould. 
Do I speak any more than the Scripture speaks, I have given you nothing else, but we may see what spirits you are of; that instead of harkening to what the Scriptures speak, you fall to your old threatening speech: I thought to have given you more Scripture, but if this take place in your spirit no better, there is little hope to convince you by quoting Scripture.  Presb. 
This is a meet vapour, I do believe you have produced all you know of.  Sould. 
Nay, I can give you many more, but because our way doth not lie fare together; I will only name the places to you, and you may peruse them at your leisore, Heb. 3.13. Chap. 10.24, 25. Mal. 3.16. Revel. 11.3.7. & 19 10.  Presb. 
Well, I will look upon these places when I can attend it.  Sould. 
Nay, I think you are not greatly overwrought; unless it be in seeking after the best Benefice, or in seeking for a way and power to kill us, for doing our duty.  Presb. 
I deny it to be your duty to Preach.  Sould. 
But I have proved it.  Presb. 
I grant it was their duty, which you instance in; but that was in a time of need; and necessity hath no law.  Sould. 
Sir, if it was duty for them, because it was a time of need, then sure it is our duty now; for I think there was never a time of greater need, for if you should travel as we have done up and down the Country, you might see it: for the people generally know little more of God, and Christ, than those that never heard of him; and have almost none in many places, to inform them better. Now after we have hazarded our lives, against our professed enemies, and God hath given us them for a prey, we are forced to hazard them again, in the discharge of our duty, in a time of such need. But we did not look for such measure at your hands: But I see the old Proverb is true, That a False friend, is worse than an open enemy: for you only shown yourselves kind to us, till we had served your turn, viz. to bring under the Episcopal party, that so you might get into your Lordly dignity; and now you endeavour our ruin.  Presb. 
Fare he it from us to seek your ruin, we only seek is reclaim you, from sowing your errors.  Sould. 
I shall make the same answer to you, as once Paul did before Foelix, Act. 24.14. when the persecuting Ministers of the Jews, came with their Orator. Tertullus, who came to slander Paul before the Governor: That after the way which you call Heresy, so worship we the God of our Fathers. And indeed, you deal by us as they did by Paul, who after he had been delivered by the marvellous providence of God, from the violence of the wicked conspiring Jews, by the heathen Captain, they come on again with a new design against him, and bring a Tertullus to accuse him to the Governor, of being a pestilent fellow, a mover of sedition, and a chief maintainer of the Sect of the Nazarites: even so, God having wonderfully delivered us from our enemies, that you see we perish not by them, now you bring your great Orator Tertullus, alias Mr. Edward's, and furnish him from all quarters of the Land, with accusations against us, as false as that of Tertullus was, that Paul was a pestilent seditious fellow, etc. and you yourselves say the same thing of us; as that we are pestilent broachers of Heresy, wicked Sectaries, and what not: and from this you would (as you say) reclaim us, and the way you take, is to labour by all means to incense the Magistrates against us, if possibly you may prevail with them, to cut us off from the Land; either by death, or by banishment, or (so it be done) you care not which way: and lest the Magistrate should refuse to yield to your wicked desire you have another way to help at a dead lift, which is to make your Pulpits ring, with out-cries against us, that so you may image the rude people to set upon us, by some violent assault or other, to destroy us.  
But look to it, innocent blood being shed, cries loud in the ears of the Lord, for vengeance against these that shed it: as you may see Gen. 4.10. the voice of thy brother's blood cryeth unto me from the earth, saith God to Caint. See also Revel. 6.10. and they cried with a loud voice saying, how long Lord holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood. and 16.6. they have shed the blood of the Saints, and thou hast given them blood to drink, for they are worthy. And Chap. 19.2. The servant of the Lord sing praises to him, for avenging their blood at the hand of the great Whore: and indeed, blood seldom goeth unpunished in this life; as I might give you many instances. see it fulfilled upon Ahab and his house: 2 King. 9.7, 8, 9, 10. Chap. 10. 11. so J●●u's house Hos. 1.4. Nay you may see how fearful those Mariners were. Jonch 1.14 Of being guilty of innocent blood; notwithstanding (as it seems) they had almost every one of them a several God: and let me tell you, if you be guilty of our blood, it will be with an aggravation, for we as instruments have saved your lives, and caused you to sit at home in peace. This consideration prevailed with Soul, as wicked as he was, when Jonathan had said unto him let not the King sin against his servant, against David, because he hath not sinned against thee, and because his works have been very good to thee wards; for he put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistims, and the Lord wrought a great salvation, thou sawest it, and didst rejoice in it: Wherefore then, wilt thou sin against innocent blood, and slay David without a cause 1 Sam. 19.4 5. his answer was, as the Lord liveth, he shall not be slain. ver. 6.  Presb. 
There is no body goes about to take away your lives, or in any wise to hurt you, if you will be juled.  Sould. 
Ruled, by whom would you have us be ruled; by God or by you?  Presb. 
By God and by us too, for we will command you nothing, but what is the mind of God.  Sould. 
But when your prohibitions, come in competition with God's Commands, we must mind his commands, and not regard your prohibitions, yourselves being Judges.  Presb. 
That I grant, when they do so.  Sould. 
I have already proved that they do so; and yourselves prove it: for you say none shall preach, but those that you appoint, and God, he commands all his people to assemble together, and not forsake the assembling of their selves together; but exhort one another daily, while it is called to day: And tells us the danger of neglecting it; lest, (saith the Apostle) any of you should be hardened, by the deceitfulness of sin. Heb. 10.24.25. and Chap. 3.13.  Presb. 
Who will hinder you, but that you may exhort one another?  Sould. 
Will not you?  Presb. 
No, why should we?  Sould. 
Why should you? truly I know no reason why you should.  Presb. 
No more do I, but you cannot content yourselves with exhorting one another, but you must be preaching one to another.  Sould. 
Can you distinguish between preaching, and exhorting, taking preaching according to the definition yourself gave of preaching, in the beginning of our discourse?  Presb. 
Yes, I can, for you may exhort your friend as you meet him occasionally; but when you preach, you meet together on purpose to that end?  Sould. 
You must grant both, or else (as much as in you lies) you hinder us of doing our duty, which God enjoins us; which is to assemble ourselves together; as I have already proved, Heb. 10.25.  Presb. 
Then we shall have you meet by hundreds together?  Sould. 
The more the merrier; if it be lawful, and it be the duty of two to meet together, to exhort, and stir up one another to love and good works, than it is as lawful, and the duty often, and so of twenty, and so of a hundred, if so many can be found, but alas, there is in many Countries hardly half so many to be found in a whole Country that look after Religion any otherwise, than the custom of the place is, and the fashion of the time; be it what it will be, neither have they any means of further light, having none to preach to them, in ten, nay in twenty miles about, and yet you will be like those to whom Christ pronounceth woe. Matth. 23.13. You shut up the kingdom of heaven: you will not go abroad to preach to them yourselves, nor suffer those that would; and so much as in you is, you hinder the salvation of men, whose perishing will (in part) therefore be upon your account, therefore let me give you one exhortation, Repent betime of this into arable wickedness, if peradventure, the thoughts of your hearts may be forgiven you: tell the people, you have been enemies to their souls and bodies, but you will be so no more: bid the people of God be constant and frequent in meeting together as their duty binds them: labour to encourage them so much the more, by how much you have laboured to discourage them; so shall you approve yourselves to be of saul's (that out of zeal, have persecuted the people of God) to become Paul's, such as rejoice, that Christ is held out every manner of way yea though it be by Mecanicks, whom you now so much despise.  Presb. 
If we should do so, than we make every mecanick equal without selves; and so as I said at the first, our Ministry will be slighted.  Sould. 
You know that the Ministers of Christ must deny themselves, in all selfe-ends; You are not to minister for yourselves, but for Christ, and if it tend to the honour of Christ, and the furtherance of his Kingdom, it ought to be your joy, as it was Paul's, Phil. 1.14.  Presb. 
But we must live of our Ministry, and if you be suffered to preach, our hearers will follow after you, because you preach for nothing: and if they begin to see that they can have preaching for nothing, they will hold us short enough, in our means.  Sould. 
All this is but carnal reasoning; if you will or dare trust God with your condition, he will surely provide for you; you using a lawful means, viz. using some lawful way or calling, to supply yourselves; that so with the Apostle, you may make the Gospel without charge; you see his care was such, 2 Thess. 3.8. Neither took we bread of any man for nought (saith he) but we wrought with labour and travel, night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you, 1 Cor. 9.18. What is my reward then, verily when I preach the Gospel, I make the Gospel without charge, that I abuse not my power in the Gospel, Acts 20.33, 34. I have covered no man's silver, nor gold, nor apparel, 〈◊〉 ye yourselves know, that these bands have ministered to my necessities, and to those that were with me: Yet God provided for Paul, notwithstanding he made the Gospel thus without charge.  Presb. 
Then you think we should do as the Apostle did?  Sould. 
If you be the Ministers of Christ why should you not in case of need?  Presb. 
We lave not been brought up to labour with our hands.  Sould. 
The more blame for those that brought you up; but I believe it was Paul's case, for be was brought up at the sees of Canaliet; nevertheless, when the Lord called him to be a Preacher of the gospel he could say his hands to work.  Presb. 
But we have work enough to study.  Sould. 
Why is that? but because you depend to much upon outward helps, and to little upon the teaching of the spirit.  Pres. 
How do you know we depend so much upon the one, and so little upon the other?  Soul. 
Because you must have a time to study; Paul could spend much of his time, in labouring with his hands.  Presb. 
But we cannot live as Paul did, in such a mean condition, having families to maintain.  Sould. 
The greater a man's family is, the more need he hath to take pains; and if that be too little, the spirit of love in the Saints, is not so fare lost; but that they will supply that which is wanting to him, that doth his endeavour.  Presb. 
If we should have but what people would freely give us, we should be poor enough.  Sould. 
That is like enough; for you never find in the scripture, that the Ministers of Christ were very rich in this world. See 2 Cor 6.10. As poor, and yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. And ver. 4. In all things we approve ourselves, as the Ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, is necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in prisons, etc. Yea the great preacher Jesus Christ himself had not a place to lay his head. Mat. 8.20. And the Disciple must not be above his Lord: is is enough that he be as his Lord is. Mat. 10.24.25. But when mention is made of the Ministers of Antichrist, and Merchants of the great Whore; you shall find them to be very rich Revel. 18.3. Toe Merchants of the earth are waxed rich, through the abundance of her cost ●●●sse: and ver. 19 Alas, alas, that great City, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the Sea. So that I must tell you, that where I see a company of Ministers, that rake and scrape, to be, rich by other men's means; and post up and down for the fattest bemire; and these extort from poor and rich, the 〈◊〉 of all their labour, charge, and increase, bestowed upon, and springing from their 〈◊〉 and in ease any be decayed in their estates, that they can find nothing to extort, than they do can them 〈…〉, without bade of 〈◊〉, 〈…〉 of Christ's Ministers, and where I find men going from one Benefice, to another that is better; it is an argument to me that they are wandering (not fixed) stars: stars being expounded to be Ministers, in Revel. 1.20. compared with Judas 13. And indeed, to be of those, which the Dragon with his tail cast to the earth, Revel. 12.4. they being so set in pursuit of these earthly things.  Presb. 
Well, for all your prating, men must live; is not the Labourer worthy of his hire?  Sould. 
Yes, and therefore if you be one that is hired to be a Minister, you should take your wages of those that hire you: and not extort it from others, as many of you do.  Presb. 
Some will not pay unl●sse they be forced.  Sould. 
They be such, I believe, as never hired you, and if they did not set you on work, what reason is there that they should pay you your wages?  Presb. 
The Ordinance for due payment of tithes, d●th in, oyne all to pay.  Sould. 
I, but I ask what reason it is that those that do not set you on wot●, must be forced to pay you your wages?  Presb. 
You were best ask the Parliament, why they made such an Ordinance.  Sould. 
If I should, they might very well tell me, that one re●son why they did it, was because they could never be at quie● for you, till they had made it; as likewise you deal about getting power to suppress us; unless we can yield to your wills in all things.  Presb. 
It is time (I think) to get an Ordinance to suppress you; for you would suppress us.  Sould. 
The Ministers of Christ, must not render evil for evil, But wherein do we go about to suppress you?  Presb. 
By desiring that we may be exposea to work, and to have no other allowance, but the good will of the people.  Sould. 
We would have you (if you be the Ministers of Christ) to have all the allowance that the Scripture allows you; and if you are the Ministers of Christ, I suppose that will suffice you.  
Again, if the Scripture do not allow you such an allowance as you desire to have, yet we are contented, that those that you can persuade to pay you, may pay you, we shall not press the Parliament to make an Ordinance against it: but you are always labouring with the Parliament for power to suppress us; but know this, that we that have so freely adventured our lives in the field for temporal Liberties, will not (seeing God hath given us our lives for a prey) neglect our duties though in the doing of the same we hazard them again in a second quarrel.  Presb. 
Then it seems you intent to fight with us.  Sould. 
Not with Temporal Weapons, but we are resolved to go on with our duty though in the doing thereof, we fall under your merciless cruelty, to the ●aking away of our ●ives.  Presb. 
Who endeavours the taking away of your lives?  Sould. 
Did not your Brother B●field bespeak the Parliament that Timber might be taken out of their own houses to make Gib●ets to hang those upon that stood in your way; or were contrary to your pretended Reformation? and are not the wish and threaten a most innumerable, that are of the like consideration? witness the many Sermons preached before the Parliament, by Presbyterian Ministers: and the many boo●s extant, to that purpose: among which Doctor bastwick's, Mr. Prynn●s, and Mr. Edwardses, may lead the Van: and there is many Brigades of valian, fight blades, in the rear of them; ready to fall on, pell mel, upon us? had they (shall I say) a word of Command; nay, but of permission from the Parliament for it: which yet I hope they shall never get, for if they should, they would involve the Kingdom (as I said before) in a further guilt of the blood of his innocent people, which surely he will avenge.  Presb. 
None of those you instance in, would have any to be put to death, but those that deferve it.  Sould. 
Yes, they would, for they are not murderers which they would have put to death.  Presb. 
Yes, but they are, for they murder souls, which is the highest degree of murder, that can be.  Sould. 
I have proved you to be the greatest soul murderers that can be, because you endeavour to hinder the people of God, from communicating their light one to another; and so by that rule if soule-murtherers should be put to death, you of all men would come under the sentence of it; but those for the most part which you would have sentenced are such who by all means endeavour the good of souls and that freely, which you do not; or No longer p●pe, no longer dance, as the Proverb ai●s) for you will stay no longer in a place than you can be well paid, but like those wanering stars Jud speaks of, away you go to another place, where you can be better p●id: yea, and that after you have owned hem to be your flock, and they you to be their Pastor: which if it were so indeed, you could not do it, for the Apostle gives change to the Elders of Ephesus, Act 20.28. That they should take heed to the flock of God, over which the Holy Guest had made them overseers. They were not to leave it for another, and if they should have excused it for want of means, he prevents them in that, ver. 35. encouraging them to their duty, by his example, which was, to work with their hands, and by the sayin; of the Lord which was, that it is a more blessed thing to give then to receive so that a true Pastor of a true flock of Christ, cannot leave one to go to another, upon no pretence whatsoever.  Presb. 
Then we (it seems) may be fleighted, and abused, and yet we must stay by ●t, and must not have our flock notwithstanding?  Sould. 
Flock did you say? say never call them a flock, rather call them a Herd, if they will abuse and sleight their Pastor; but it must needs be so, seeing you make all, high and low, rich and poor, 
Rev. 13.16.  bond and free, to receive a mark, to be of your Church, will they, will they, be they good or bad, for there is none so bad, but they are good enough to be of your Church, only they are not good enough, to partake of all your Ordinances: therefore you will keep away the scandalous and profane, which labour might be spared, if there were not such in your Church.  Presb. 
Why in the purest Church that ever was, there have been some nought.  Sould. 
I grant there have, but then they crept in at unawares, as Judas speaks, ver. 4. they came in like good men, and so soon as they were discovered to be other wise, they were cast out (or aught to be at least) and it was the Church's sir, if they did not do it, 1 Cor. 5.1, 2. But there is a wide difference, but ween some proving nanght in a Church & a Church being constituted of such  Presb. 
Why, was our Church constituted of such?  Sould. 
Yes, for in point of constitution it is by succession, and so it is like people, like Priest; for look how the Popish Priest left the people in Queen Mary's days, so the Episcopal Ministers took them in Queen Elizabeth's days; and look how they left them when you did cast them out, as unfit to administer any longer, so you took the same people into your charge: so it is with the flocks as with the shepherds, the same ordination which they had in Queen Mary's days to make the Papal Priests, the same served in Queen Elizabeth's days, to make the Episcopal; and the same that was for the Episcopal, the same serves now for you that are new moulded Presbyters, as i● clear by the ordinance that is for the making of Ministers, which says, that that ordination was valid: so that all the Reformation so much talked of, consists in altering of words; there being the same matter, and for the most part the same form, as was in Queen Mary's time, both for Church and Ministry: and for the Manistery I confess it must needs be so, or else down falls succession; and for the people, it must needs be so, for else if none were to be of the Church, but those that could be judged godly, there would want a great deal of the tithes, oblations, obventions, etc. because in most (if not in all) places the ungodly are the greatest number; as likewise godly men begin to see that tithes, oblations, are not to be paid by any rule of the Gospel.  Presb. 
Why, are they not to be paid?  Sould. 
Because they were never appointed to be paid by any, but the people of Israel: nor by them no where, but in the Land of Canaan; nor to any Ministers, but to the tribe of Levit and they had it because the Lord gave them no inheritance among their brethren.  Presb. 
But d●t● not the Apostle say, that those that preach the Gospel sh●●d● live of the Gospel?  Sould. 
Yes, therefore hot live of the Law as did Priests and Levites.  Presb. 
What then do you think it is, to live of the Gospel?  Sould. 
It is for those that are in the fellowship of the Gospel, to supply their Ministers in those things they stand in need of, they having done their endeavours not be chargeable.  Presb. 
Well, but for all this, I am of the mind we may take tithes.  Sould. 
Then it seems you do not think that you are bound to live of the Gospel, whatsoever you say? and indeed I do not know why you should, unless you are Gospel Ministers; and you cannot be Gospel Ministers unless the Episcopal and Papal Ministers were Gospel Ministers, as I said before.  Presb. 
I confess there is much amiss in Church and Ministry, in respect of constitution, but all cannot be reform in a day?  Sould. 
Reform: nay if a thing be amiss in the constitution, it is not possible to reform it, what ever it be: therefore till your Church and Ministry be new from the foundation, and have a new constitution, it can be no more right, than the Church and Ministry in Queen Mary's days was, which being well considered, me thinks it might somewhat allay the heat of your spirits from burning so furiously, against those that do somewhat differ from you, as touching the Church and Ministry; and that you might not so eagerly desire their tuine, seeing yourselves stand upon such a sandy foundation.  Presb. 
Seek their ruin? God forbidden we should seek the ruin of any.  Sould. 
Well, tell me truly, would not you, and your brethren, have those that differ from you in point of Church and Ministry, and worship, to be imprisoned or banished?  Presb. 
I confess we would not have them live among us to disturb us, and seduce our bearers.  Sould. 
I knew this was in your mind as appears by your daily preaching and printing, now let yourself be judge, whether or no, this doth not tend to the ruin of those you would thus deal with; you will suppose you do your duty in so doing, in case you banish them, and if it be your duty so to do, than it is the duty of every one to do the like that hath power to do it: now you must needs grant, that this tends to their unavoidable ruin; for when you have banished them from you, whithersoever they go, it is the duty of those, among whom they come, to do the like, and so the next to do the like, and the next, till there be no place for them in the world: and so you make void that text, Matth. 13.30. (were it granted that those you banish are wicked men) which says, that the wheat and tarts, must both grow together till the harvest. And the harvest is expounded to be the end of the world. Ver. 39 So that if those you banish be tares, Viz. wicked men, you must let them grow in the world tell the end thereof.  Presb. 
But all (we know) will not banish them, for they do not regard religion in many countries, so we know they need not get out of the world.  Sould. 
But by your ground they neglect their duty, and what a shame is it for you, that those which regard not religion, are more merciful than you, which are the great pretended reformers of religion. But consider one thing more; the vileness of this practice stays, not in that which is done to them, but extends itself to wives, and children, who (though they be of your own mind in point of worship) are ruined, and undone, by this means: for the ●●●●ng Wife, and tender Child, must leave their Father or Husband, or else go out of the world with them, Oh cruelty not to be parallelled! Oh oppression without compare! Know this assuredly, the Lord will not always suffer it, see what he says of oppression, and oppressors. Prover. 22.22. Rob not the pear, because he is poor; ●●ither oppress the as●ictea in judgement: for the Lord will defend their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoil them. Now you both Rob, and make poor, and oppress in judgement, and spoil: First you Rob them in taking from them their just liberties; in banishing, or imprisoning them, they being free borne; and if they were not poor before, you make them poor, by this course; which brings affliction not only to the supposed offenders, but even to those, who in your sense are guiltless; as the Presbyterian husband, wife, parents, children, etc. And thou you oppress the afflicted in judgement. But the Lord will defend their cause; which is indeed, for their exceeding comfort: but as for you; read your doom, in the next words; he will ●●●le the soul of those that spoil them. See also what the Lord hath said, in relation to his poor captivated people, and those cruel tyrants that captivat them. Esa 48.25.26. But thus saith the Lord, even the captivity of the mighty shall●e taken away, and the prey of the Tyrant shall by delivered, for I will contend with them that contend with thee, and I will save thy children: and I will seed them; that spoil thee, with their own fl●sh, and they ●ha● be drungen with th●r own blood, as with sweet w●●●, and all fl●●h shall know, that I the Lord am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty one of Jacob.  Presb. 
What, do● you account us Tyrants?  Sould. 
You prove yourselves to be so by your practice.  Presb. 
Why there hath none of you, been either imprisoned, or banished as yet.  Sould. 
What is in intention, is all one as if it where in action i● the account of Gods and it had been brought forth into action before this time, had the Parliament but given you power to do it; as your daily preaching, and printing doth declare, So that it may be fitly applied to you, which is said. Mic. 2.1. Woe unto them that unagine iniquity, and worbe wickedresse upon their buds, when the morning is light they practise it, because their hand hath power.  Presb. 
Well, we shall teach you to apply Scripture other we yet one o● these days, if once we could get some few ●ubbs out of our way, which we are in great hopes, we shall very speedily, if once the Army w●re di●banaed, and the King would take the Covenant, and so all the Cavaliers were turned Presbyterians, than we could single you out as we pleased.  Sould. 
Truly Sir, now I think you have told me your very heart (at least) as Samson did to Dal●lah; but it may be God will hold you short still, and not suffer you to wreck all your fury upon us; but however, we are resolved to answer you as the three Noble Jews did the King, Dan. 3.17.18. Our God whom we serve is able to deliver use from the hot fiery furnace of your intended persecutions. But if not, be it known unto you, that we will not serve God after your mind, farther than we can be persuaded in our own Consciences, of the warrantableness thereof; nor decline any duty, which we are persuaded we own to God; so that you will not get much by your Tyranny; only what your Forefathers did Viz. to be counted a generation of cruel, bloody persecutors; which in time was their ruin, and will in time be yours, if you persist in their steps; and that shall assuredly be made good, in due time, which is spoken in the seventh Psalm, verse 11.12.13. God judge●● the unrighteous; and him that 〈…〉 God let 〈…〉 turn, he hath 〈◊〉 his, were 〈◊〉 bem his 〈…〉 ready, he also 〈…〉 weapons, for 〈◊〉 that persecute.  Presb. 
〈…〉 you b●d 〈◊〉 to rail.  Sould. 
I do not rail, I do but tell you what the Scripture speaks of such practices, and practisers.  Presb. 
Put those Scriptures are to le ●pphed to wicked men, and not 〈◊〉 Ministers of Christ.  Sould. 
Those Scriptures are to be applied to persecutors, and such you are by your 〈◊〉 grant; therefore 〈◊〉 swe● you as Je●us did the J●w●s Joh 8.39. if (said 〈◊〉) yet were 〈…〉, ye 〈◊〉 do the works of Ab ●ah●m; to s●y●l, if you were the Ministers of Christ, you would do the corks of the Ministers of Corist.  Presb. 
What works are they?  Sould. 
To fee● the fi●●●e which be hath purchased with his own bl●o●, and not to persecute him in his members, old this 〈◊〉 the Ministers of Christ.  
But truly when Martin mar Priest writ that a Presbyter would be ever times worse than a bishop, for persecuting.  
I did not 〈◊〉 him; yet 〈…〉 think you are resolved to make it good: so that I may well take up that saying of Stever against you, Act. 7.51, 52. As your fathers did 〈…〉 you, which of repeople of God have not your Father's persecuted which followed Christ? of whom you are now the betrayers and wurt●erers; and Ezek. 20.30. are not ye polluted after thou inner of your Fathers, and Lake 11.48 Trety you bear w●●nesse and allow the needs of your fathers who kille● the people of God.  Presb. 
Who do you 〈◊〉 by our Father's 〈◊〉 you thus speak?  Sould. 
The Bishops, who do you think I should mean else?  Presb. 
I have already denied that we have any dependence upon the bishops.  Sould. 
And I have already proved, that you have a dependence upon them; I hope you will not say, that your 〈◊〉 of succession reaches, no further than Doctor ●ou●●, Doctor Burges, or Mr. Walker, etc. and if it do reach further, then ●ure the Bishops must needs be th● next link of th●e●ai●e, and therefore I must tell you that I cannot but t●ink, that all such of you who ●re enlightened re forsworn, in not and vouring to ●o●● our your own way of Ministry: ●or you have s●om to extirpate root and branch, all h●● depends upon that Hierarchy, and so the snare which you laid for others, hata can be yourselves.  Presb. 
Who did ●el yasnare for in the Covenant?  Sould. 
For two sorts of men:  
First the Bishops, to goe them out of the way, that so you might reign in their steads.  
And secondly, for these honest men whose to sciences would not suffer them to t●k it that so you might prevent them from b●aring any Office lest they should be impediments to the setting up of your new invented way and Minister, but it is a worse matter to be forsworn, then to be counted unworthy to bear an O●nce in Church or State.  Presb. 
Why do you call our way and Ministry new, seeing it is not new?  Sould. 
I confess it is not new indeed, as I said before; save only in terms and cire mst●nces, for your way and Ministry, is as old as Episcopacy, but you have put it into a new dress, that so it might not be mistrusted, to be that old one, which you have caused people to swear, to extirpate root● and branch; but indeed it is the same; but how if people should at la● come to know what it is, which they have sworn to extirpate, and so rather than they will be forsworn, they should endeavour in their places to root out your Ministry, as some of the brarches of the old stock; than it will not be safe for you, to ur●● the ●aking of the covenant, upon any more. But you may rather re●o●ce hat no more have taken it: for you have enough against you already if all that have taken it, did know what they have sworn to do; and did also make conscience, to perform their oath. As for my part, should ● take it, I should judge myself bound to do all tha● ever I could, to exterpate your Ministers; neither should I think myself discharged of my Oath, so long as any appearance of it did remain.  Presb. 
Well, you are a very pragmatical fellow, I am glad I have no further to go with you, but take this at parting, that it will not be long before we shall have all such fellows as you 〈◊〉 withal.  Sould. 
Then it seems you are so full, that you must begin, continue, and conclude, with threats: but as for me, I will not threaten you, but I will tell you what the Lord saith of persecutorss Psalm. 7.15, 16. He hath made a pit and digged it, and is fal●e in the pit that he made, his mischief shall return upon his own head, and his cruelty shall fall upon his own pate; but as for me, I shall pray that the Lord will deliver you from your evil thoughts, and from all the evil that he hath denounced against persecutors, and let me entreat you, to remember the saying of Christ, Act. 9.5. It is hard for you to kick against the pricks, so Sir, wishing your welfare, I shall take my leave of you.  Presb. 
Farewell Sir.  
FINIS.