A DISCREET AND JUDICIOUS DISCOURSE BETWEEN WISDOM AND PIETY, Two worthy Members. Wherein is declared the Power and jurisdiction of Parliaments in their proceed, and in the alteration of Church Government. Written by R. P. Printed at London 1642. HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE crest or blazon of the Knights of the Garter A discreet and judicious Discourse, between WISDOM and PIETY, two worthy Members. Piety. SIr, I rejoice much at our so happy meeting in this place; I hope leisure will now permit us to confer of these times, and the proceed of the High Court of Parliament, in settling the disorders in this State; and such a form of government in the Church, as I hope will be congruent to the sense and true meaning of the Word of God. Wisdom. Sir, I joy as much as you for our meeting, and I hope we may spend a little time in discourse of those things you have mentioned; I conceive it will not be lost time, nor much hindrance to our other occasions. And under favour Sir, pray what think you of the proceed of the Parliament, concerning Church Government, and Ecclesiastical discipline. Piety. A Parliament, pray Sir, what mean you by the word, and what is the signification thereof? Wisdom. The word is compounded of, and derived from the French and Latin words; as I conceive, Parle Mentis, which I understand signifies a speech of the Mind, contracted Parliament or Parliament; and I mean thereby a Council of grave and learned men, congregated and assembled by their Prince's command and authority, to consult and debate freely, speaking clearly what is their mind and intentions; such things tending to the safety and prosperity of their King and Country, and what form of Government is meetest to be used in the Church, in the exercise of Religion. Piety I conceive your definition of the word is good, but I desire to know whether it be in the power of such a Council or Parliament, to alter the Government of a Church, established and confirmed for several ages together in a Kingdom, both by the Princes thereof successively, and a whole Council of State gathered together, and assembled in Parliament. Wisdom. To answer your request: I conceive it is in the power of a Parliament, with their Prince's consent, to alter the Government of the Church; I can give you instances of the same: The Romish Religion was a long time in this Kingdom practised and professed, confirmed by several Kings and Parliaments of this Land, until the 28. year of the reign of Henry 8. Then did that Prince and his Parliament begin to alter the Government of the Church, and in the 31. of his reign he perfected his intentions in a total change of the Government thereof: Abolished and demolished all places of worship, according to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of Rome, as Abbeys, Monasteries, Priories, Nunneries, and the like: the lands and demeanes appertaining to the same were given to the Crown; as also the worship itself. This form of Government (attended only with some Ceremonies of the Church of Rome) continued this King's reign till Edward 6. in whose reign was a further and more perfecter change in the Government of the Church then before. Now was Bibles and other Divine books ordained by the King and his great Council to be translated into the English tongue; a form of Common-prayer made and confirmed by Parliament to be used in the English tongue; the administration of the Eucharist, and the Sacrament of Baptism, used according as in the Ancient and Primitive Church; which form of government and worship of God is now called the Protestant Religion. This Government and Alteration continued but a small time, till the reign of Queen Mary, who again reduced Popery to its height in this Kingdom. This change continued till Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory, who again set up the Protestant Church, which hath ever since till of late flourished in this Kingdom; and thus you plainly see a Parliament may with the consent of their Prince, altar the Government of the Church, and the discipline thereof, to that form which the Prince stands most affected too. Piety. But pray Sir, if a Catholic Prince come to reign over a Kingdom, wherein the Protestant Religion is altogether professed and established: Is it then in the power of the Parliament, without the consent of the King, to make Laws and Ordinances for the confirmation of their Religion, in the Government, Doctrine, and Discipline thereof. Wisdom. This question is difficult to be resolved, and I cannot punctually determine thereof; but I conceive, if over such a State there be such a Prince, that is not a native of that Kingdom, a Parliament of the whole State assembled, may without his consent establish and confirm the ancient Laws and Statutes of the Kingdom, for the Government of the Church and State. But whether it be so, if a native Prince, I cannot certainly resolve. Piety. I verily believe the Parliament hath power and authority to change upon occasion the Government of the Church in contrary Religions, as before is instanced; but I am not yet satisfied whether a Parliament, either with consent of the Prince, or without, can alter a form of Government established in a Kingdom, concerning one Religion, be it the Protestant or other. Wisdom. To answer this, I conceive the Doctrine of the Church cannot be altered, for than we do change our Religion, and are not of the same as before, but of a new; but the Government and Discipline of a Church may be changed, according as the wisdom and policy of the State shall find the same convenient or inconvenient, hurtful or commodious for the same. Piety. Nay, the Titles, Places and Offices of men of holy Order be at the pleasure of a Parliament, changed, or quite taken away; being of such antiquity in the Church, as Lord Bishops, Bishops, Archdeacon's, De●●es, prebend's, and the like. Wisdom. I conceive their Titles may be changed, or taken away; as Lords Bishops, Archdeacon's, &c. for no such names are to be found in the Scripture, or by the same warranted: Their places of both Temporal and spiritual Jurisdiction (as they are made the only Governors of the Church and of the State too) may if a State find them hurtful and prejudicial to the same, be taken away and changed; but for their Spiritual functions and offices of Bishops or Presbyters, I conceive the same cannot be changed or taken away with-safety or security; But the sole power and jurisdiction in government of the Church may be taken from particular persons, (and assistance of grave Divines joined with them in the same) as the wisdom of the Parliament shall see me meet. Piety. But may a State Politic and Civil change the government of the Church, and establish a new sonnic of government in the same, without advice of a Council or Synod of Divines that are grave and learned, elected and chosen out of every County of the Kingdom, and their consents to the change of government in the Church? Wisdom. I conceive the Parliament, as it is an Assembly of Lay men, and none of them in holy Order, cannot of its self change the government of a Church, without advice and consent of the Clergy: But I believe it is in the sole power of Parliament to make choice of such Divines as shall inform them concerning what Government and Discipline is most convenient for the Church, and what not. Piety. Then cannot a Synod or Convocation of the Clergy be assembled without authority of Parliament, and what Ordinances is made in the same by them are of no validity, without confirmation by the King and Parliament. Wisdom. No truly, I believe there cannot; and what is done by a Synod or Convocation, without consent and confirmation of King and Parliament, is not binding to the Subject. And now thanking you lovingly for your good discourse, I must take my leave of you till another time; wishing all things may be done in Parliament to the honour of God, firm establishment of true Religion, and such a form of government in the Church, as may be agreeble to the Word of God, and the settling of peace and unity in all his Majesty's Kingdoms. Piety. Amen. God be with you Sir till out next meeting. Wisdom. I thank you hearty. FINIS.