TWO SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT OF THE RIGHT HONOURABLE WILLIAM, LORD Viscount SAY and SEAL, Mr. of his Majesty's Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council, The first upon the Bill against Bishop's power in civil affairs and Courts of Judicature. The other a Declaration of himself touching the Liturgy, and separation.  
LONDON, Printed for Thomas Vnderhill. 1641.   

A Speech of the Right Honourable WILLIAM, Lord Viscount Say and Seal, one of his Majesty's most Honourable privy Council, spoken in Parliament, upon the Bill against the Bishops.  
MY LORDS,  
I Shall not need to begin as high as Adam in answer to what hath been drawn down from thence by a Bishop concerning this question, 
The Bishop of Lincoln.  for that which is pertinent to it will only be what concerns Bishops as they are ministers of the Gospel, what was before (being of another nature) can give no rule to this. The question that will lie before your Lordships in passing of this bill is not whether Episcopacy (I mean this hierarchical Episcopacy which the world now holds forth to us) shall be taken away Root and branch, but whether those exuberant and superfluous branches, which draw away the sap from the tree, and divert it from the right and proper use whereby it becomes unfruitful, shall be cut off, as they use to pluck up suckers from the Root. The question will be no more but this, whether Bishops shall be reduced to what they were in their first advancement over the Presbyters (which although it were but a humane device for the Remedy of Schism, yet were they in those times least offensive) or continue still with the addition of such things, as their own ambition, and the ignorance and superstition of succeeding times did add thereunto, and which are now continued for several politic ends, things heterogeneal and inconsistent with their calling and function, as they are ministers of the Gospel, and thereupon such, as ever have been, and ever will be, hurtful to themselves, and make them hurtful to others, in the times and places where they are continued. And these things alone this bill takes away, that is their offices and places in Courts of Judicature, and their employments by Obligation of office in civil affairs: I shall insist upon this, to show first how these things hurt themselves, and secondly, how they have made, and ever will make them hurtful to others; They themselves are hurt thereby in their consciences, and in their credits; In their consciences, by seeking or admitting things which are inconsistent with that function and office which God hath set them apart unto. They are separated unto a special work, and men must take heed how they mis-imploy things dedicated and set apart to the service of God; They are called to preach the Gospel, and set apart to the work of the ministry, and the Apostle saith, who is sufficient for these things, showing that this requireth the whole man, and all is too little, therefore for them to seek, or take other offices which shall require and tie them to employ their time and studies in the affairs of this world, will draw a guilt upon them, as being inconsistent with that which God doth call them and set them apart unto. In this respect our Saviour hath expressly prohibited it, telling his Apostles that they should not Lord it over their Brethren, nor exercise Jurisdiction over them, as was used in civil governments among the Heathen: They were called gracious Lords, and exercised Jurisdiction as Lords over others, and sure they might lawfully do so: but to the Ministers of the Gospel our Saviour gives this Rule, it shall not be so done by you; If ye strive for greatness, he shall be the greatest, that is the greatest servant to the rest; therefore in another place he saith, He that putteth his hand to the Blow and looketh bacl to the things of this world is not fit for the kingdom of God, that is the preaching of the Gospel, as it is usually called. To be thus withdrawn by entangling themselves with the affairs of this life by the necessity and duty of an Office received from men, from the discharge of that Office which God hath called them unto, brings a woe upon them; Woe unto me, saith the Apostle, if I preach not the Gospel, what doth he mean? If I preach not once a quarter, or once a year in the King's Chapel? No, he himself interpreted it; Preach the Word, be instant, in season and out of season, rebuke, exhort, or instruct, with all long suffering and doctrine: he that hath an office, must attend upon his office, especially this of the ministry. The practice of the Apostles is answerable to the direction, and doctrine of our Saviour. There never was, nor will be, men of so great abilities and gifts as they were endued withal, yet they thought it so inconsistent with their Callings to take places of Judicature in civil matters, and secular affairs and employments upon them, that they would not admit of the care and distraction that a business fare more agreeable to their Callings, than these, would cast upon them, and they give the reason of it, in the sixth of the Acts, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God and serve Tables. And again, when they had appointed them to choose men fit for that business, they institute an office rather for taking care of the poor, than they by it would be distracted from the principal work of their Calling, and then show how they ought to employ themselves; But we (said they) will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the Word; Did the Apostles, men of extraordinary gists, think it unreasonable for them to be hindered from giving themselves continually to preaching the Word and Prayer, by taking care for the tables of the poor Widows, and can the Bishops now think it reasonable or lawful for them to contend for sitting at Council Table to govern States, to turn Statesmen in stead of Churchmen, to sit in the highest Courts of Judicature, and to be employed in making laws for civil polities and government? If they shall be thought fit to sit in such places, and will undertake such employments, they must not fit there as ignorant men, but must be knowing men in businesses of State, and understand the Rules and laws of government, and thereby both their time and studies must be necessarily diverted from that which God hath called them unto; And this sure is much more unlawful for them to admit of, then that which the Apostles rejected as a distraction unreasonable for them to be interrupted by. The doctrine of the Apostles is agreeable to their practice herein, for Paul when he instructeth Timothy for the work of the ministry presseth this argument from the example of a good Soldier, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of the world: So that I conclude, That which by the commandment of our Saviour, by the practice and doctrine of the Apostles, and I may add by the Canons of ancient Counsels, grounded thereupon, is prohibited to the Ministers of the Gospel, and shown to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function, as will bring a woe upon them, and is not reasonable for them to admit of; If they shall notwithstanding entangle themselves withal, and enter into, it will bring a guilt upon their souls, and hurt them in respect of their consciences.  
In the next place it doth blemish them, and strike them in their credit, so fare from truth is that position which they desire to possess the world withal, that unless they may have these outward trappings of worldly pomp added to the Ministry, that Calling will grow into contempt, and be despised. The truth is, these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men. They gain them cap and courtesy, but they have cast them out of the consciences of men; and the reason is this, every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its own proper excellency; the eye in seeing, not in hearing; the ear in hearing, not in speaking; The one would be rather monstrous then comely, the other is ever acceptable being proper; so is it with them, their proper excellency is spiritual, the denial of the world with the pomp and preferments, and employments thereof, this they should teach and practise, but when they contrary hereunto seek after a worldly excellency like the great men of the world, and to rule and domineer as they do contrary to our Saviour's precept, Vos autem non sic, but it shall not be so amongst you, in steid of honour & esteem they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that contempt and odium which they now lie under, and that justly and necessarily, because the world seethe that they prefer a worldly excellency, and run after it, and contend for it, before their own, which being spiritual is fare more excellent, and which being proper to the Ministry is that alone which will put a value and esteem upon them that are of that Calling. As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit, so have they, and, if they be continued, still will make them hurtful to others; The reason is, because they break out of their own orb, and move irregularly; there is a curse upon their leaving of their own place. The heavenly bodies while they keep within their own spheres give light and comfort to the world, But if they should break out, and fall from their regular and proper motions, they would set the world on fire: so have these done while they kept themselves to the work of their ministry alone, and gave themselves to prayer, and the ministry of the Word, according to the example of the Apostles, the world received the greatest benefits by them, they were the light, and life thereof; But when their ambition cast them down like stars from heaven to earth, and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren, I do appeal to all who have been versed in the ancient Ecclesiastical stories, or modern Histories, whether they have not been the common incendiaries of the Christian world, never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees, and Churches, Excommunicating one another, drawing Princes to be parties with them, and thereby casting them into bloody wars. Their ambition, and intermeddling with secular affairs and State business, hath been the cause of shedding more Christian blood than any thing else in the Christian world, and this no man can deny that is versed in History; But we need not go out of our own Kingdom for examples of their insolency and cruelty; when they had a dependency upon the Pope, and any footing thereby out of the Land, there were never any that carried themselves with so much scorn and insolency towards the Princes of this Kingdom, as they have done. 
Lincoln.  Two of them the Bishop that last spoke hath named, but instances of many more may be given whereof there would be no end. Although the Pope be cast off, yet now there is another inconvenience no less prejudicial to the Kingdom by their sitting in this House, and that is, they have such an absolute dependency upon the King, that they sit not here as freemen. That which is requisite to freedom, is to be void of hopes and fears; He that can lay down these is a freeman, and will be so in this house; But for the Bishops as the case stands with them, it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes, greater Bishoprics being still in expectance: and for their fears they cannot lay them down, since their places and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood, and so hereditary, but by annexation of a Barony to their office, and depending upon that office, so that they may be deprived of their office, and thereby of their places, at the King's pleasure, they do not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint, as the Judges now by your Lordship's petition to the King have their places granted them, but at will and pleasure, and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as he pleased, and Laws made excluso Clero, so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner, they must needs therefore be in an absolute dependency upon the Crown, and thereby at devotion for their votes, which how prejudicial it hath been, and will be, to this house, I need not say.  
I have now shown your Lordships how hurtful to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have been, I will only answer some Objections which I have met withal, and then crave your pardon for troubling you so long.  
Object. 1. It will be said that they have been very ancient.  
2. That they are established by law.  
3. That it may be an infringement to the privileges of the House of Peers, for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members.  
To these three objections the answer will be easy.  
1. To the first, Antiquity is no good plea, for that which is by experience found to be hurtful, the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to remove it, that it may do no more, besides other irregularities are as ancient which have been thought fit to be redressed, and this is not so ancient, but that it may truly be said, Non fuit sic ab initio.  
2. For being established by Law, the lawmakers have the same power, and the same charge, to alter old laws inconvenient, as to make new that are necessary.  
3. For privilege of the House it can be no breach of it, for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to be for public good, and they have power respectively of accepting or refusing.  
There are two other Objections which may seem to have more force, but they will receive satisfactory answers.  
The one is, that if they may remove Bishops, they may as well next time remove Barons and Earls: for answer.  
The Reason is not the same, the one sitting by an Honour invested in their blood, and hereditary, which though it be in the King to grant alone, yet being once granted he cannot take away; the other sitting by a Barony depending upon an Office which may be taken away, for if they be deprived of their office they sit not.  
2. Their sitting is not so essential, for Laws have been, and may be made, they being all excluded, but it can never be showed, that ever there were Laws made by the King, and them, the Lords and Earls excluded.  
The other objection is this, that this Bill altars the foundation of this house, and innovations which shake foundations are dangerous.  
I answer first, that if there should be an error in the foundation, when it shall be found, and the master-builders be met together, they may, nay, they ought rather to amend it, then to suffer it to run on still, to the prejudice and danger of the whole structure.  
2. Secondly, I say this is not fundamental to this House, for it hath stood without them, and done all that appertains to the power thereof without them, yea, they being wholly excluded, and that which hath been done for a time at the King's pleasure, may be done with as little danger for a longer time, and when it appears to be fit and for public good, not only may, but aught to be done altogether by the supreme Power.  
FINIS.   

A Speech of the Right Honourable WILLIAM, Lord Viscount Say and Seal, one of his Majesty's most Honourable privy Council, spoken in Parliament, touching the Liturgy and Separation.  
MY LORDS,  
I Have waited to find you free from greater businesses, that I might crave leave to speak of something that concerns myself; And this I have the more desired since my Lord of Canterbury's last speech, who expressing his troubles, and bewailing the misery of his condition, and of the condition of the Church of England, (for he would needs join them together, which I think he may as the cause and effect, for the miseries of the Church have certainly risen from him) he insisted much upon this, That these troubles had befallen him through the malice of two parties, the Papists, and the Sectaries, and by those he said the Church was greatly afflicted. How fare this man will extend this word Sectary, and whom he will comprehend under it, I know not, but I have some cause to fear that I may lie under some misapprehensions in respect of matters of this nature, which how fare it concerneth him your Lordships will perceive by what I shall say. My Lord of Canterbury a man of mean birth, bred up in a College, (and that too frequently falls out to be in a faction,) whose narrow comprehensions extended itself no farther than to carry on a side in the College, or canvas for a Proctor's place in the University, being suddenly advanced to highest places of government in Church and State, had not his heart enlarged, by the enlargement of his fortune, but still the maintaining of his party was that which filled all his thoughts, which he prosecuted with so much violence and inconsiderateness, that he had not an eye to see the consequences thereof to the Church and State, until he had brought both into those distractions, danger and dishonour, which we now find ourselves encompassed withal; Yet to magnify his moderation, presently after the breaking of the last Parliament he told a Lord who sitteth now in my sight, that if he had been a violent man, he wanted no occasion to show it, for he observed that my Lord Say never came to prayers, and added, that I was in his knowledge as great a Separatist as any was in England. My Lords, how fare he hath spit this venom of his against me, I am not certain; But I may well fear where it might do me greatest prejudice; I shall therefore entreat your Lordship's favours and patience, that I may give you in these things which so nearly concern me a true account of myself, which I shall do with ingenuity and clearness, and so as that if I satisfy not all men, yet I hope I shall make it appear I am not such a one as this waspish man was willing to make the world believe.  
For the first of these that he chargeth upon me, it may be he was willing to have it thought that I would not join in prayer with your Lordships, but refused such a communion, which is altogether false, for I should most willingly join in prayer with you. And further I will add, that I do not think but some set forms of prayer, by some men, in some cases, may be lawfully used; But this is that which I am not satisfied in, that a certain number of men should usurp an authority unto themselves to frame certain prayers and forms of divine Service, and when that is done, under the name of the Church to enjoin them upon all persons, in all times, and upon all occasions to be used and none other: and upon this ground (which makes it the worse) because these come from the public spirit of the Church (when the Bishop or his Chaplain shall frame them) and others proceed from the private spirit of this or that particular man.  
This injunction is an usurpation of power over the Churches of Christ, and over the gifts and graces which Christ hath given unto men: which the Apostles never exercised nor would assume, and yet they might much better have done it, and the same reasons might then have been alleged for it, that are now; This turns such forms, in stead of being directions, into superstition.  
This sets aside the gifts and graces which Christ hath given, and thrusts out the exercise of them, to substitute in their places, and introduce a device of man. This injunction of such forms upon all men, turns that, which in the beginning necessity brought in for the help of insufficiency, to be now the continuance and maintenance of insufficiency, and a bar to the exercise of able and sufficient gifts and graces: As if because some men had need to make use of Crutches, all men should be prohibited the use of their legs, and enjoined to take up such crutches as have been prepared for those who had no legs. This I confess I am not satisfied in, yet I will further say thus much, here are with your Lordships some Bishops, men of great parts, able to offer up this worship unto God, in the use of those gifts which God hath endowed them with: and certainly they ought to serve him with the best of their abilities which they have received. Let them make use of their own gifts, nay let them but profess that they account not themselves bound to use forms; nor to this form they use, more than any other, but that it is free to them to conceive prayer, or to help themselves by the use of any other form they please aswell as this prescribed; And let them practise the same indifferently, that so it may be manifest the fault rests in the person and not in the Service, in the negligence of him that may offer better if he will, not in the Injunction of that which is offered; And I will not refuse to come to prayer: for I take the sin then to be personal, and to reside in the person officiating only. I know not whether I express myself clearly to be understood in this or not, and it may seem to be a nice scrupulosity, give me leave therefore to endeavour to clear it by an instance or two. In the time of the Law, when God appointed himself to be worshipped by offerings, and sacrifices, the shadows and types of those truths which were to come; If a poor man that had not ability to bring a Bullock, or a Ram, or a Lamb, had brought a pair of Turtle Doves, or two young Pigeons, it would have been in him an acceptable service: But if a man of ability who had herds and flocks, should out of negligence or covetousness, have spared the cost of a Bullock or a Ram, and brought young Pigeons, his service would have been rejected, and himself punished: how much more would the service have been abomination, if men should have taken authority to have enjoined all to bring no other but Turtles or young Pigeons, because some were not able to do more? In one case there might be a tolerable and lawful use of that, which otherwise used (especially if generally enjoined) would have been most unlawful; God will be worshipped with the fat and the best of the inwards, the best of men's gifts and abilities, which he that worships, or officiates in worshipping, is to do at his own peril; And if it be left free unto him, the worship may be lawful to him that joineth with him therein in itself, though performed in a negligent, and so in a sinful manner by the Minister, but if that manner be enjoined, the Service itself is to be refused.  
Now in the time of the Gospel God hath appointed the foolishness of preaching (for so the world accounts it) to be the means whereby he will save those that believe; I conceive where there are no gifts enabling men to preach, there might be a lawful and profitable use of reading of printed Sermons and Homilies, and in such case they might very lawfully be heard; But if some men upon pretence to prevent extravagant preaching, should take upon them to set forth a book of public or common Sermons fit for all times and occasions, and should enjoin Ministers to conform to those, and use no other preaching at all, but the reading of these common Sermons or Homilies so devised for public worship, this would make it utterly unlawful, and to be professed against, as that which were the bringing in of a humane device and injunction, in the place, and in stead of God's ordinance, to the exclusion thereof, as the Pharisees, to establish traditions of their own, made void the commandments of God; let it be considered what difference there can be found between these, but only this, Use and Custom hath enured us to that of Prayer, not so in this of Preaching, and therefore the evil of it would easily appear unto us if so enjoined.  
My Lords, let me presume upon your patience so fare further, as to give me leave to speak to the other imputation laid upon me that I am a Separatist, and the greatest in England; and first I shall say of this word Separatist, as that learned man Mr. Hales of Eton saith in a little Manuscript of his which I have seen.  
That where it may be rightly fixed and deservedly charged, it is certainly a great offence; But in common use now amongst us it is no other than a Theological scarecrow, wherewith the potent and prevalent party useth to fright and enforce those who are not of their opinions to subscribe to their dictates, without daring to question them, or bring them to any rule or examination either of Scripture or reason. And he observeth that this was too usual, even in ancient times as well as now.  
Secondly, I say that there is a twofold separation, one from the Universal or Catholic Church, which can not otherwise be made but by denying the faith, (for Faith and Love are the Requisites unto that communion) the other is a separation from this or that particular Church or congregation, and that not in respect of difference with them in matter of faith or love, but in dislike only of such corruptions in their external worships and Liturgies as they do admit of, and would enjoin upon others. This is a separation not from their persons as they are Christians, but from their corruptions in matter of worship as they are therewith defiled; And this separation every man that sin keep himself pure from other men's sins, and not sin against his own conscience, must make. And I will ingenuously confess, that there are many things in many Churches or Congregations in England practised, and enjoined upon all to be practised and suffered, which I cannot practise, nor admit of; except I should sin against the light of my conscience, until I may out of the word of God be convinced of the lawfulness of them, which hitherto I could never see sufficient ground for. But my Lords, this is so fare from making me the greatest Separatist in England, that it cannot argue me to be any at all; for my Lords, the Bishops do know that those whom they usually apply this term unto are the Brownists (as they call them by another name) and they know their tenants. The truth is, they differ with us in no fundamental point of doctrine or saving truth, as I know.  
Their failing is in this, they hold that there is no true Church in England, no true Ministry, no true worship, which depend the one upon the other, they say all is Antichristian: here is their error, they distinguish not between the bene esse or purity of a true Church, and the esse or true being of it, though with many defects and gross corruptions, But conclude that because such things are wanting, which are indeed necessary to the well being of a true Church, and to be desired, therefore there is none at all in being. I hold no such opinion, but do believe to the contrary, That there are in England many true Churches, and a true Ministry which I do hear, and with which Churches I could join in communion were those yokes of bondage which are laid upon them taken off, and those corruptions removed which they do (contrary as I think to their duty) yield unto and admit of, and this I am sure no separatist in England holdeth that deserveth that name. Therefore I hope your Lordship's will in that respect let me stand right in your opinions. I shall now end with two requests.  
The one that your Lordships will please to pardon me for troubling you with so long a discourse concerning myself, I have not used it heretofore, and I am not like to offend again in the same kind, it is but once, and your Lordships will consider the occasion.  
The second is humbly to entreat of you, that where you know there is one and the same God worshipped, one and the same faith embraced, one and the same spirit working love, and causing an unblameable conversation without any offence to the State, in your brethren, that in all these concur with you, you will not suffer them (for Ceremonies, and things to you indifferent, but not to them but burdens, which without offence to the State, or prejudice to the Churches, you may take off if you will) to be thrust out of the Land, and cut off from their native Country, for if you thus shall wound the consciences of your brethren, you will certainly offend, and sin against Christ.  
FINIS.