TWO SPEECHES OF THE RIGHT HONOURABLE WILLIAM, Lord Viscount SAY and SEAL, Mr. of his Majesty's Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council, spoken in Parliament.  
The first upon the Bill against Bishops.  
The other a Declaration of himself touching the Liturgy.   fleur-de-lis 
LONDON, Printed for Thomas Vnderhill. 1641.   

A Speech of the Right Honounourable WILLIAM, Lord Viscount Say and Seal, one of his Majesty's most Honourable privy Council, spoken in Parliament upon the Bill against the Bishops.  
MY LORDS,  
I Shall not need to begin as high as Adam in answer to what hath been drawn down from thence by a Bishop concerning this question, 
The Bishop of Lincoln.  for that which is pertinent to it will only be what concerns Bishops as they are ministers of the Gospel, what was before (being of another nature) can give no rule to this. The question that will lie before your Lordships in passing of this bill is not whether Episcopacy (I mean this hierarchical Episcopacy which the world now holds forth to us) shall be taken away Root and branch, but whether those exuberant and superfluous branches, which draw away the sap from the tree, and divert it from the right and proper use whereby it becomes unfruitful, shall be cut off, as they use to pluck up suckers from the Root. The question will be no more but this, whether Bishops shall be reduced to what they were in their first advancement over the presbyters (which although it were but a humane device for the Remedy of Schism, yet were they in those times least offensive) or continue still with the addition of such things, as their own ambition, and the ignorance and superstitions of succeeding times did add thereunto, and which are now continued for several politic erds, things heterogencall and inconsistent with their calling and function as they are ministers of the Gospel, and thereupon such, a ever have been, and ever will be, hurtful to themselves, and make them hurtful to others, in the times and places where they are continued. And these things alone this bill takes away, that is their offices and places in Courts of judicature, and their employments by Obligation of office in civil affairs: I shall insist upon this, to show first how these things hurt themselves, and secondly, how they have made, and ever will make them hurtful to others; They themselves are hurt thereby in their consciences, and in their credits; In their consciences, by seeking or admitting things which are inconsistent with that function and office which God hath set them apart unto. They are separated unto a special work, and men must take heed how they mis-imploy things dedicated and set apart to the service of God; They are called to preach the Gospel, and set apart to the work of the ministry, and the Apostle saith, who is sufficient for these things, showing that this requireth the whole man, and all is too little, therefore for them to seek, or take other offices which shall require and tie them to employ their time and studies in the affairs of this world, will draw a guilt upon them, as being inconsistent with that which God doth call them and set them apart unto. In this respect our Saviour hath expressly prohibited it, telling his Apostles that they should not Lord it over their Brethren, nor exercise Jurisdiction over them, as was used in civil governments among the Heathen: They were called gracious Lords, and exercised Jurisdiction as Lords over others, and sure they might lawfully do so: but to the Ministers of the Gospel our Saviour gives this Rule, it shall not be so done by you; If ye strive for greatness, he shall be the greatest that is the greatest servant to the rest; therefore in another place he saith, He that putteth his hand to the Blow and looketh bacl to the things of this world is not fit for the kingdom of God, that is the preaching of the Gospel, as it is usually called. To be thus withdrawn by entangling themselves with the affairs of this life by the necessity and duty of an Office received from men, from th● discharge of that Office which God hath called them unto, brings a woe upon them; Woe unto me, saith the Apostle, if I preach not the Gospel, what doth he mean? If I preach not once a quarter, or once a year in the Kings Chappelle No he himself interpreteth it; Preach the Word, ●e instant, in season and out of season, rebuke, exhort, or instruct, with all long suffering and doctrine: he that hath an office, must attend upon his office, especially this of the ministry. The practice of the Apostles is answerable to the direction, and doctrine of our Saviour. There never was, nor will be, men of so great abilities and gifts as they were endued withal, yet they thought it so inconsistent with their Callings to take places of judicature in civil matters, and secular affairs and employments upon them, that they would not admit of the care and distraction that a business fare more agreeable to their Callings, than these, would cast upon them, and they give the reason of it, in the sixth of the Acts. It is not reason that we should leave the word of God and serve Tables. And again, when they had appointed them to choose men fit for that business, they institute an office rather for taking care of the poor, then th●y by it would be distracted from the principal work of their Calling, and then show how they ought to employ themselves; But we (said they) will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the Word; Did the Apostles, men of extraordinary gifts, think it unreasonable for them to be hindered from giving themselves continually to p●●●●hing the Word and prayer, by taking care for the ●●…les of the poor Widows, and can the Bishop's no● think it reasonable or lawful for them to contend for fitting at Council Table; to govern States, to turn Statesmen in stead of Church men, to sit in the highest Courts of judicature, and to be employed in making laws for civil polities and government? If they shall be thought sit to sit in such places, and will undertake such employments, they must not sit there as ignorant men, but must be knowing men in businesses of State, and understand the Rules and Laws of government, and thereby both their time and studies must be necessarily diverted from that which God hath called them unto; And this sure is much more unlawful for them to admit of, then that which the Apostles rejected as a distraction unreasonable for them to be interrupted by. The doctrine of the Apostles is agreeable to their practice herein, for Paul when he instructeth Timothy for the work of the ministry presseth this argument from the example of a good soldier, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of the world: So that I conclude, That which by the commandment of our Saviour, by the practice and doctrine of the Apostles, and I may add by the Canons of ancient Counsels, grounded thereupon, is prohibited to the Ministers of the Gospel, and shown to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function, as will bring a woe upon them, and is not reasonable for them to admit of; If they shall notwithstanding entangle themselves withal, and enter into, it will bring a guilt upon their souls, and hurt them in respect of their consciences.  
In the next place it doth blemish them, and strike them in their credit, so fare from truth is that position which they desire to possess the world withal, that unless they may have these outward trappings of worldly pomp added to the ministry, that Calling will grow into contempt, and be despised. The truth is, these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men. They gain them cap and courtesy, but they have cast them out of the consciences of men; and the reason is this, every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its own proper excellency; the eye in seeing, not in hearing; the ear in hearing, not in speaking; The one would be rather monstrous then comely, the other is ever acceptable being proper; so is it with them, their proper excellency is spiritual, the denial of the world with the pomp and preferments, and employments thereof, this they should teach and practise, but when they contrary hereunto seek after a worldly excellency like the great men of the world, and to rule and domineer as they do contrary to our Saviour's precept, Vos autem non sic, but it shall not be so amongst you, in stead of honour and esteem, they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that contempt and odium which they now lie under, and that justly and necessarily, because the world seethe that they prefer a worldly excellency, and run after it, and contend for it, before their own, which being spiritual is fare more excellent, and which being proper to the Ministry is that alone which will put a value and esteem upon them that are of that Calling. As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit, so have they, and, if they be continued, still will make them hurtful to others; The reason is, because they break out of their own orb, and move irregularly, there is a curse upon their leaving of their own place. The heavenly bodies while they keep within their own spheres give light and comfort to the world, But if they should break out, and fall from their regular and proper motions, they would set the world on fire: so have these done while they kept themselves to the work of their ministry alone, and gave themselves to prayer, and the ministry of the Word, according to the example of the Apostles, the world received the greatest benefits by them, they were the light, and life thereof; But when their ambition cast them down like stars from heaven to earth, and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren, I do appeal to all who have been versed in the ancient Ecclesiastical stories, or modern Histories, whether they have not been the common incendiaries of the Christian world, never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees, and Churches, Excommunicating one another, drawing Princes to be parties with them, and thereby casting them into bloody wars. Their ambition, and intermeddling with secular affairs and State business, hath been the cause of shedding more Christian blood than any thing else in the Christian world, and this no man can deny that is versed in History; But we need not go out of our own Kingdom for examples of their insolency and cruelty; when they had a dependency upon the Pope, and any footing thereby out of the Land, there were never any that carried themselves with so much scorn and inslencie towards the Princes of this Kingdom, as they have done. Two of them the Bishop that last spoke hath named, 
Lincoln.  but instances of many more may be given whereof there would be no end. Although the Pope be cast off, yet now there is another inconvenience no less prejudicial to the Kingdom by their sitting in this House, and that is, they have such an absolute dependency upon the King, that they sit not here as freemen. That which is requisite to freedom, is to be void of hopes and fears; He that can lay down these is a freeman, and will be so in this house; But for the Bishops as the case stands with them, it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes, greater Bishoprics being still in expectance: and for their fears they cannot lay them down, since their places and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood, and so hereditary, but by annexation of a Barony to their office, and depending upon that office, so that they may be deprived of their office, and thereby of their places, at the King's pleasure, they do not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint, as the Judges now by your Lordship's petition to the King have their places granted them, but at will and pleasure, and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as he pleased, and Laws made excluso Clero, so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner, they must needs therefore be in an absolute dependency upon the Crown, and thereby at devotion for their votes, which how prejudicial it hath been, and will be, to this house I need not say.  
I have now shown your Lordships how hurtful to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have been, I will only answer some Objections which I have met withal, and then crave your pardon for troubling you so long.  
Object. 

1. It will be said that they have been very ancient.  
2. That they are established by law.  
3. That it may be an infringement to the privileges of the House of Peers, for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members.    
To these three objections the answer will be easy.  

1. To the first, Antiquity is no good plea, for that which is by experience found to be hurtful, the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to remove it, that it may do no more, besides other irregularities are as ancient which have been thought fit to be redressed, and this is not so ancient, but that it may truly be said, Non fuit sie ab initio.  
2. For being established by Law, the lawmakers have the same power, and the same charge, to alter old laws inconvenient, as to make new that are necessary.  
3. For privilege of the House it can be no breach of it, for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to be for public good, and they have power respectively of accepting or refusing.   
There are two other Objections which may seem to have more force, but they will receive satisfactory answers.  
The one is, that if they may remove Bishops, they may aswell next time remove Barons and Earls: for answer.  
The Reason is not the same, the one sitting by an Honour invested in their blood, and hereditary, which though it be in the King to grant alone, yet being once granted he cannot take away; the other sitting by a Barony depending upon an Office which may be taken away, for if they be deprived of their office they sit not.  
2. Their sitting is not so essential, for Laws have been, and may be made, they being all excluded, but it can never be showed, that ever there were Laws made by the King, and them, the Lords and Earls excluded.  
Object. The other objection is this, that this Bill altars the foundation of this house, and innovations which shake foundations are dangerous.  
Answ. I answer first, that if there should be an error in the foundation, when it shall be found, and the master bvilders be met together, they may, nay, they ought rather to amend it, then to suffer it to run on still, to the prejudice and danger of the whole structure.  
2. Secondly, I say this is not fundamental to this House, for it hath stood without them, and done all tha● appertains to the power thereof without them, yea, they being wholly excluded, and that which hath been done for a time at the King's pleasure may be done with as little danger for a longer time, and when it appears to be fit and for public good, not only may, but aught to be done altogether by the supreme Power.  
FINIS.