A PUBLIC CONFERENCE Betwixt the Six Presbyterian Ministers, And Some Independent Commanders: Held at OXFORD, On Thursday Novemb. 12. 1646.  
Printed in the Year, 1646.   

A public CONFERENCE Held at OXFORD Novemb. 12. 1646. Betwixt the Six Presbyterian Ministers, and the Independent Commanders.  
SIR,  
THough you be never so serious, I must break in upon you, I am in pain till I have propagated our laughter to you, which hath held us ever since last Scruple-Thursday. You know the Scruple-Office, where the doubting Sisters are carried with zeal to join in a Reformation with the Resolving Brethren, and burdened consciences come to lay down their loads, and go away with others; where the resolver's take away the doubts, and gain the Doubters to themselves: whither seeing all flock that know nothing but to doubt, amongst these I presumed to make one in the Crowd. Here I found the doubting Brethren turned the resolver's, and those that held the Chair, uncertain in their Resolutions, and as doubtful as the Oracles of Old; as those that believe not themselves, what they would have others believe. They have proceeded thus fare in the Reformation, and the Resolutions of Doubts, that they have brought all to that petty Scruple, Whether Christ hath any Church, any Ministry, since the Apostles. Or, granting a Church to Christ, but none to them (Dato, sed non Concesso; Yerbery will allow no more.) They disputed this with them, Whether they did not more usurp on the Title of Ministers in the Church of Christ, than themselves on the Office, in Preaching? or (in their own phrase) in hinting truths, holding forth lights, making out Gospell-Revelations, exercising their Gifts and Lungs, and in Love edifying the Church (or if Yerbery will better admit the Term) Propagating the faithful? Sir, Will you receive the Conference, as I had it in a throng and crowded up, or are you at leisure to hear at large all Obs and Sols? I'll venture on the Task, upon the condition, you will take the Dialogue not for one of my penning, or one translated out of Lucian's Jupiter Tragaed: but (what you put upon me) my relating. And from the impertinent circumstances, (if you can bear them) you will most please yourself, to see the whole Manage, the Logic, the Determination and Result of all the Disputes proceed from those who wore their Arguments by their sides, and yet used the others weapons, 
●he chief Per●●●s of the Conference.  to beat them withal.  
'Twas after three of the clock when first there appeared looks frighted with Visions and Revelations, as if they had fasted and prayed for Mediums, and yet they seemed rather possessed then inspired; they call themselves Spiritual, but the Crowd gins to complain of the Big-boned Spirits, after them drop in dejected visages, sentenced foreheads, that by their posture appeared to be Seekers, and in the Van of the Lifted and Guifted men, one presseth foremost towards the Tripodes; the crowd divides, and gives way, as Jordan to the Ark, or rather a cloud to a flash of Lightning, his name asked, whispered aloud, Yerbery. What is he? 
The Doubting Brethren or Scruplers. Yerbery.   
Yerbery, The Champion of the Seekers, the Chaplain Errand, that makes not only Sermons at all hours, but his Divinity too, like the first Artists, that found out the trade they professed. This, was he ready to oppose, and to hold any thing.  
Make way there:  
Grimes, a Carpenter, the Deputy-Governour, who held 〈◊〉 the Rule, and did not amiss govern (amongst such doughty Schoolmen) the Divinity Disputation.  
Hewson, a Shoemaker, and Colonel, Prior Opponent, a most categorical Disputant, yet so rude, that he seemed to understand others better than himself, that he neither admitted Impertinencies, nor committed any; an admirably Guifted, or Jesuited Brother: He proposed the Questions, enforced their own objections and Answers, recollected the Arguments on both sides, exposed the others Reasons, if it were possible to more absurdity, and weakness, than the Author. We wondered so much true Logic, and false English.  
Under the Colonel many other Guifted Officers.  
A Major, that had not the spirit of Syllogisms, but of contradiction: who, when he saw that Logic failed him, defied humane Arts.  
A Captain, and a Captain, that offered fair, to second them, but could not go fare in Mediums, (they were not bred at the fencing School) which the others were not ashamed to ask liberally, though they afforded sparingly.  
To these still press forward the crowd of Seekers, and put in ever and anon, 
The resolver's or Scruple-Masters.  as, the Interlocutor.  
Room, Room. Enter at last the grave Scruple-Masters.  
Wilkinson, The Chaireman pro Tempore.  
On the one hand,  
Reynolds, the Oracle, with the hoarse and obscure voice.  
On the other hand,  
Harris, like Aaron and Hur on both sides Moses, to support his hands; Harris, that maintained his gravity by silence, and appeared guifted better for Prayer, than Disputation.  
At their side sat  
Dr. Temple, the very Timocles in Lucian, that brought more Lungs and volubility, not much more Logic than the other.  
To back these, the other stood behind.  
Cornish, that helped to disturb the Disputation once or twice, and speaking without Mediums, was descried, and sat down again.  
Langley, the Mute, 'twas thought he reserved his Resolutions for the other Sex.  
Cheynel. Cheynel is now called for; he is much missed, no confidence of victory without him, the only man that could oppose frenzy to frenzy, and outvie their zeal with greater heat, fling about Texts, cast wildly, but in Mood and figure.  
But will your patience hold out with this style? Now the heat is somewhat over, in a colder reflection, I begin to discover myself, like one of those, who being transported with mirth, would force others to be as merry as themselves, while indeed they appear rather mad. I will then give you the Discourse, without the Scene, which you will easily supply by your imagination. The Question first proposed, and beat out into 8. or 9 more questions or Propositions; Whether the Ministry were committed to the hands of selected Persons? the Theses asserted; 1. That Christ had a Church. 2. That Christ had all power and judgement given from God. 3. That he was a Prophet, a Priest, and a King. 4. That as a King he Gathered, Governed a Church. 5. That in this Church he appointed some Ministers, etc. That was not the Question. And what meant the paper he read in, they knew not, though they knew, and would not dispute then all the Propositions. They came to show their Gifts, not the hands they wrote. They came to have their doubts resolved, These were truths they stood not on. Yerbery then risen up, cried down again. After an hour's debate, what was the question, crying up, decrying, this, that, hinting, holding out, and making forth their minds, they framed the Question in terms which they imposed to their own advantage: Whether the esteemed Ministers of the Church of England had more Authority from Jesus Christ to preach in public, then ordinary Guifted Christians. Here a double weakness on the other part, still to insist, and urge their own Paper, as if they were not they, who have brought in Extempore Effusions throughout the whole service of God, and allow unpremeditated Preaching and praying (such as the Lay might imitate and now here challenge) but here allow only set, and premeditated Disputes. I was again ashamed to see terms imposed to their adversaries advantage, and not so pertinent to their doubt, which, while the Scruple-Masters urge their own Propositions, is still hinted to be; Whether it were lawful for them, who were no Ministers to lay out Scripture in public, and to undo Chapters? Whether it were lawful for the Guifted Christians, or whether it were more lawful for the esteemed Ministers? The Chaire-man riseth up, undertakes the Cause, but Mediums coming not readily, again the Papers called in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; Why we come hither to have our Doubts resolved, 'tis strange you should tell better than ourselves, what our doubts are. The Question was hinted on this occasion, viz. your biting and unbrotherly railing against this way of God, in building up one another. The Chairman riseth up again, and finding it reducible to one of his Propositions, offers again at the Question, and reads his 5. Proposition with the Proofs; they admitted no reading Divines, nor indirect proofs. Sol. Prove this; First the Negative, That 'tis not lawful for the Guifted Christians: Secondly, the Affirmacive, That the esteemed Ministers of the Church of England are lawfully called by jesus Christ to Preach.  
The Negative first endeavoured by the Chaire-man, with a most indirect and confused proof, as he managed it, from the names and Titles, of Pastor, Steward, Ambassador, etc. and that confirmed by Eph. 4.11. Christ gave some Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Teachers, therefore not all. This was urged somewhat more volubly by Timocles, but with no stricter inference. To this the only proof for the Negative was answered severally; Th●● the Text was not exclusive: There were othe●s mentioned in other places of Scripture given likewise, as Helps, and Governments, (said the Deputy-Governour) That the Inference could not extend to the Negative, Christ gave some Pastors, therefore none other might feed the Flock. That their Preaching did not infer that there were not some Ministers beside them, that they did not preach with the Titles, Officially, but Edifyingly. They did not Preach, but Teach, and that Christ gave some Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, etc. ex abundanti, to perfect the Saints, that the syllogism might be returned on them, Christ gave some Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, etc. but they were not that some Evangelists, or Prophets, therefore they were not to Preach: Now ex abundanti they urge on the contrary, that it is not only not unlawful (as yet it appeared by all they could say against it) but our duty to improve our Gifts, to exhort, admonish, edify one another, by all the Texts sounding that way: First from the Context alleged against them, Eph. 4.16. That the Members mutually grow up, and make ncrease of the body, unto the edifying of itself in love. That the manifestation of the spirit is given to every one to profit withal, that they are to administer the Grace they have received, as good Stewards, that 1. Cor. 14. every one was to prophecy, that is, to speak to edification, exhortation, consolation, that there were many preached, Act. 8. that were no Evangelists, Apostles, Prophets, etc. and particularly Apollo, Act. 18.28. taught in the Synagogues that Jesus was the Messiah, and yet not called Minister of the Gospel, it being not probable that he should be chosen by the Apostles to the Ministry, who yet knew nothing but the Baptism of John, and was to be instructed by Priscilla and Aquilla his Wife. You already guess the Answer: 'twas extraordinary. They prove it ordinary, since that is ordinary, which was common to all in the Church, as to prophesy, 1 Cor. 14. Belonged to every one. This being all then alleged against the unlawfulness, and overborne with a greater number of Texts that seemed not only to prove, but enjoin it as a duty. They Recollect all the Obs and Sols, and submit the Result to the judgement of the Spiritual.  
For the Affirmative, now they urge them to prove their own Calling lawful, and according to the appointment of Christ, and to justify their own Ministers of the Church of England, since they could not so easily disprove, as they did reprove the Lay Divines: Timocles stands up.  
They which are qualified, which are approved, which are called according to the mind of Christ, and set apart to the Gospel, are Ministers lawfully called according to the mind of Christ: But some Ministers of the Church of England are qualified, etc.  
They urged against All, and we expected he should not at first have quitted our Church. But his proof he stretched but to some: What need all this? Provo but one, they are called by Christ, we require no more. No: he claims the privilege of Logic to take his own choice and Order, (a new Privilege, as any the Subject now assumes.)  
First, Qualified according to the mind of Christ, here the 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. are read for one Proposition, but some are thus qualified, All, All, 'tis enough if some. This denied None, yes some thus Qualified, Reynolds, Harris, Wilkinson. Upriseth Yerbery.  
Not qualified to the Text, because strikers, because they destroy the Communion of Saints, and because they inflict Temporal punishments for Spiritual Weaknesses.  
They destroy the Communion of Saints because they set up Parish Churches. Since Christ bid his Apostles go, and Teach, no standing Ministers of Christ's ordaining.  
To this, provoked with zeal, R. Argues in stead of Answering.  
They who have justifying faith and charity according to the Gospel, destroy not the Communion of Saints.  
But some Ministers of the Church of England, meaning himself and those mith him.  
The Seeker grants not that neither, For they who have not the Spirit equal to the Apostles even before they had the Gifts of the Spirit (who then could not bear the saying of Christ, and therefore far from Faith,) They that have not at all the gifts of the Spirit (there he reads them, Prophesying Tongues, Miracles, asks which they challenge) could not pretend to Faith or Charity according to the Gospel.  
'Tis again answered, Gifts extraordinary and Gifts of the Spirit, either donum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, This caused an outcry, they came to be edified, and yet they found the Gift of Tongues, they denied.  
To the Question again.  
Not strikers, Because Inflicters of Temporal punishment for Spiritual Weaknesses, because the Assembly approves of the Act of Parliament.  
Here they call him back to the question, 'tis safer th●n Answering.  
Not qualified, Because covetous, because th●y take Tithes, they that take others goods, and return nothing of value for it are Covetous.  
Make the syllogism out. They that take others goods, etc. Where's your Minor? Timocles, They that take others Goods: You make the Minor.  
What's this to the lawful Calling, to the Question? prove your Calling.  
Timocles, The next is, they that are approved, pray ye let it be they that are call d. No, in order, They are approved that are qualified to the mind of Christ; This we heard before, prove your Calling▪ Calling? Why thus: They that are approved according to the mind of Christ, are called according to the mind of Christ, but some Ministers of our Church, 
●●ey are approved who are ●●●lified (as be●●●●.)  etc. Col. Idem per Idem. Sir, pardon me, I know not your name. Your Argument is this; We say you are not lawful Ministers in the Church of England call●d by the mind of Christ, you reply, We are, and we are, and therefore we are. Is not this a Circle? I confess it is, but you put me to it.  
How then do you prove your Calling lawful. W. Why is there not a Presbytery now to ordain Ministers? Timocles, your Calling is lawful that is by the appointment of the Magistrate. But who called that Presbytery, who called you? so fearful were they here to defend their own Calling, lest they should seem to defend their own Church, or name Bishops, that to wave the Answer R. stands up, and informs them what was a lawful Calling. To a lawful calling is required in the persons call d the qualifications mentioned, Piety and Parts; in the calling the Inward and Outward Call: the Outward calling double: in a settled Church to be by the Ministers, the Presbytery, in an unsettled Church, as in times of Reformation, the extraordinary or (more properly) the universal way is by the whole Church, for to speak my sense and judgement, the ultimate and last Authority is resolved into the body of the whole Church. Col. What do you mean by Church? All the faithful, all the Christian People. What by the Church of England? All the Christian People of this Nation, or Kingdom, call it what you will.  
Col. this then (if I mistake not) is the substance of your Speech, that the persons called are to be qualified with sanctity and knowledge. We contend for none, but who are qualifis d and guifted, that the power of Calling those persons resides in the whole Church. None could plead better the Independents part. They require no more, but the power of making their Officers.  
Thus have they at last dealt ingenuously, and being not able to maintain by their new fundamentals, they yielded up the Question. Either R. is very subtle, and by this state of the Question seeks to compound with the Independents, or else very simple, and hath unawares betrayed himself with the Presbyterians. [It is either Reynolds the Fox, or Reynolds the Goose.] They need no Opponents in this Question, every one differing and opposing the other. W. stating the power of calling Ministers in the Presbytery, wins the Title of Presbyterian from them all. Timocles concluding the same power that makes Churchwardens, and Constables, to appoint and call Ministers, comes of an Erastian. R. To be received into the Congregation of the Independents. 'Twas now almost 9 of the clock, some complained of their heads, some of their Age, another of the Crowd; But a more zealous Brother cries out, Paul teached till midnight, and it was the time for their new lights to be held out; Mr. Harris is desire d to close all, and what he could not by dispute, to determine and end the difference by prayer, and their Requests, are now his best Call; see the power of Natural Logic that hath proved, Those that have no Calling, to be lawful Preachers, and those that have a Calling to be no Preachers at all.   

Postscript.  
THe six Presbyterian Divines have been much worsted by the Independent Commanders, in a late public Disputation, who asserted, That they had no Commission from God to be Ministers; in the presence of two or three hundred Scholars, and others, which much blanked those Worthies, who were sent thither to reform that University, and to resolve all Queries, Doubts, and Scruples of Conscience.  
Whereupon the Presbyterians not meeting, as was expected, upon the Thursday following, Nou. 19 they were conceived utterly to wave any more Conscience-resolving Disputes, and were hereby concluded (from their silence and tergiversation) to be no better than Thiefs and Robbers, so that now these Commander wanting an enemy from these foiled Presbyterians, have adventured to challenge that late most famous University, to prove their Calling from Christ.  
FINIS.