A BRIEF REPLY OF THOMAS UDALL, GENT. To a short MEMORANDUM, or show of Answer against his Book Entitled: A brief View of the weak Grounds of Popery: by B. C. student in Divinity. Chrysost. in Math. Hom. 19 Qui mendax est, neminem putat verum dicere. He that is a liar, thinks no man speaks truth. Leo Epist. 83. ad Palaestinos. Ecclesiae nomine armamini et contra Ecclesiam dimicatis. You arm yourselves with the name of the Church, and yet ye fight against the Church. LONDON Printed by W. S. for Samuel Macham and are to be sold in Paul's Church yard at the sign of the Bulhead. 109. To the Christian Reader. GOod Reader, It is now more than two years, since I published (for some special respects) A little Book entitled, A brief view of the weak grounds of Popery. Of late there came to my hands; A refutation of Master Bells Treatise, Entitled, the trial of the new Religion, and a short view of Thomas Rogers untruths; with a short Memorandum for T. V otherwise called Thomas Udall, by one B.C. Student in Divinity, as he styleth himself: wherein he presents me with A short sample of such fowl flaws as are in my Book, as he suggesteth: Which subject he minds hereafter to prosecute with a more full hand. If his mind change not, Or that the happy news of my Conversion, cross not his designments. Whereof he seems so confident, that in two places of the three last leaves of his Preface (which is all that concerns me, in that Tract) he boldly affirms, that he sees no cause to despair of; If true zeal of truth, and saving my soul, have set me a work: Which two principal motives (with a fervent desire I had, to withdraw some of my best friends from that Egyptian darkness of Popish superstition: which to God's glory is since effected) I do ingenuously confess, to have been the sole and only cause of that small Tract. But I cannot but marvel, upon what ground, or hope, this confidence of my conversion should be so presumed; (unless it be to gull some of his Popish dependants with the hope thereof) since in this little, he hath delivered, he hath only excepted against five particulars, which he hath selected out of several places in my book: And yet, if they were all granted, It nothing impeacheth the sum and substance thereof; but that it may be notwithstanding sound and good enough: unless in Master B. C. Logic, these be good inferences. T. V hath mistaken, or misalleadged some few authorities, in his Book: Ergo, he hath not showed the weakness of the grounds of Popish Religion: Ergo, the Papists are wrongfully charged with blasphemy: Ergo, the Scriptures defended by the Papists are not convinced to be apocrypha, etc. But it seems by Master B. C. proceeding, both with me and others; That such is the simplicity of the Popish vulgar Catholics, that he assures himself, if he can but convince a few places, among many, to be mistaken, or misalleaged; it is sufficient to persuade them, that the whole book is nothing but lies, and untruths: Albeit, they must be very simple, That seeing ten or twelve witnesses produced, eight or ten whereof, prove the point directly (though two of them fail) will not judge the truth sufficiently approved: especially, if the witnesses be without exception. And surely he must needs be very well persuaded, either of his own worthiness, or of my insufficiency, that doth thus presume of my conversion, without justifying his own grounds, or laying open the weakness, of those Engines of mine (as he phraseth them) wherewith (he saith) I labour so much to undermine, the impregnable grounds of the Catholic Church: which grounds are so sufficiently battered and beaten down, by the answer of that learned and reverent Minister, Master Wootton, to A. D. Treatise of faith, That it rests not in the power of any Popish Proctor, ever to repair them. But that I may not hold thee too long in so short a subject, I will truly acquaint thee with such substantial stuff, as Master B. C. hath gathered, (as he saith) Either for my spiritual profit, or the commodity of other, or the common good of both: which shall be set down verbatim with peculiar answer to every Section; in hope that when he prosecuteth the laying open of the maladies of my Treatise, (as he termeth them) I shall receive the same equity from him: that it may appear what he answereth, and what he omits. And for the better unmasking of that, which he hath excepted against in my Book; I will endeavour first to deduce my own reasons, and then his answers thereunto, into true form of syllogism. That it may be evident to the judicious, that if all, wherewith I am charged, were granted; yet is the sum and substance of my Book, untouched, or unanswered. And may not I pray you, his seduced fellows, glory to have gotten so stout a Champion, that can with such dexterity disspatch three books at once. And is not this sufficient to discredit all T. V Book? No doubt it will stay the languishing desire of many Papists; that there is now some hope, the grounds of their Religion, shall be particularly defended; and Tho. Udal's Book wholly confuted: though Doctor Norris had it six months, before it was printed, and said nothing: and that it hath been now two years, since it was published, and only five poor places of no consequence at all, for the substance, pretended to be falsified. But I had well hoped, that Master B. C. professing himself a student in Divinity: And an accepter of Master Bells Challenge, (with so many and several conjurations; wherewith he urgeth, presseth, and provoketh him to disputation; Sect. 18. of B.C. Preface. ) having seen in the Preface of my Book, with what earnestness I had requested; and by so many several reasons urged, to have had my Book answered: I had well hoped, I say, That Master B. C. would, even for the merit of winning souls, And for the greater glory of that Catholic truth, whereof he so much boasteth; have made a full, and perfit answer to the same: And not have wronged the learning and reputation, we might have conceived him to have had; with such trivial exceptions. But no doubt this is sufficient to persuade some of his credulous crew, that the book is answered. And yet, if I should charge him with the like exceptions, as Master Bell doth; and tell him, It stands not with the credit of the Catholic cause or Romish Divines, to answer by patches and pieces: I must look to receive the same answer, he hath made to him, in this his Preface to us all, That he hopes the good Reader will consider, that as he was not bound to meddle with the Pamphlet at all: So was it at his choice to leave what he listed, and take what he pleased; especially making open profession of that course: An answer no doubt worthy of such a refuter, since children, where they cannot read, skip over. And therefore good Reader, thou mayst see by this little, what thou must expect hereafter: That when he hath showed the flaws, and maladies of my Treatise, (as he supposeth) and disgorged himself, of some carping exceptions, against some mistaken questions (if any such happen to occur) The substance of the Book will stand sound and firm, against all the cavilling Champions of the Romish Synagogue. And so wishing them all increase of knowledge to God's glory, I bid them Farewell in Christ. Tho. Udall. A brief Reply of Thomas Udall Gentle. to a short Memorandum, or show of answer, against his Book, Entitled, A brief view of the Weak Grounds of Popery, By B. C. student in Divinity, according to the order proposed in the Preface. B. C. Sect. 1. Being thus dispatched of Master Rogers: it remaineth to speak a word or two of another Book, which was not long since sent me, and is Entitled. A brief view of the weak grounds of Popery, compiled together by one Master Udall, a lay Gentleman of divers English Controvertists, as himself seemeth to insinuate, and in all probability cannot otherwise be thought, and so no marvel, if the waters be not sound, when they were drawn from corrupt fountains, and who can ever look for a well shapen garment, made after a crooked measure. Grapes are not gathered of thorns, Mat. 8.16. nor figs of thistles, as our Saviour saith: yet doth it so much please Master Udall, that he doth seem to take great heart of grace, for that he was not answered with that expedition he expected. The more haste he maketh, the more he urgeth his own disgrace, if malice have set him a work: but if it be true zeal of truth, and saving his soul as he pretendeth, I despair not of his conversion: wherefore either for the spiritual profit of himself, or the commodity of other, or common good of both, I will now present him with a short sample of such foul flaws as be in his book, minding afterward with more full hand to prosecute that subject. T. V. IT seems, at the first entrance of Master B. C. Memorandun, That he would willingly extenuate the matter of my Book, by terming me A lay Gentleman: insinuating to his Popish dependents, That they should not so much weigh, what is spoken, as who speaks: though all men of judgement, weigh rather the speech, than the speaker. And so (I hope) will not inquire so much what I am, as what I say. The general scope and drift of my whole book may be thus deduced. That Religion which hath weak, and uncertain grounds, cannot be the true Religion: But Popish Religion hath weak and uncertain grounds: Ergo, Popish Religion cannot be the true Religion. The Mayor is evident, and the Minor is proved throughout my whole book, in the Refutation of every particular ground of Popery. Against my Book Master B. C. reasoneth thus. That which is drawn from English Controvertists, cannot be sound: But Master Vdalles Book is drawn from English Controvertists: Ergo, Master Vdalles Book cannot be sound. How Master. B. C. hath quit himself for the proof either of his Mayor, or Minor, I leave to the censure of the learned. But I pray you let me ask you this question: May not truth be drawn from English Controvertists? What will then become of Hardings works, the Rheims Testament, Cardinal Allens, Parsons, Raynolds, bristol, and your own, with many others: Surely if the feathers, you have borrowed from Harding, Stapleton, and others, were plucked from you; your whole book would be as naked, as Esopes Crow. If I have taken great heart of grace, for that I was not answered with that expedition I expected: I may do so still, for any answer I have yet made you: neither do I see any cause now to discourage me, since that after almost two years (meeting with one so sharp sighted, as yourself) I find nothing answered to any purpose. For I truly protest, I see not, (neither I think do you) What spiritual profit to myself, or what commodity to other; or what common good to both; the short sample of such foul flaws, as you present me with, should procure either to other, or to me. But you mind hereafter (you say) to prosecute that subject, with a more full hand: you had need; for this is very barren, and empty. And if your promises hereafter, prove no better, than these supposed flaws, now presented; you may well change your opinion: And say, you despair altogether of my conversion. B. C. Sect. 2. IN his Preface to his dearest Cousins, (whom with poison lurking under sugared words he laboureth to inuenome) he accuseth us of open blasphemy against the sacred Scriptures: which I think will rather prove a gross untruth on his part, and where is this blasphemy contained? in a book as he telleth us of Cardinal Cusanus, which is entitled, De authoritate, etc., Of the authority of the Church, and Counsels, above and against the Scriptures. But I beseech him, did he ever see this book, which so confidently he allegeth? if he hath, than should he have done well to have noted where, that the Reader also might have found it, seeing it is not amongst the three Tomes of his works, set out at Basill, In the year 1565. neither mentioned by Trithemius, who hath diligently gathered together, the works of learned writers: nor yet by Possevinus who hath lately entreated of the same matter. In the year 1565. If he hath not: what indiscretion is it, in so weighty a point, to rely upon the credit of others. Verily, would such as read Protestants books, but vouchsafe sometime to examine the quotations, it were not possible that they could be so pitifully deceived, as they daily be: Cusanus is abused, he never wrote any such book. This untruth it may be borrowed from Master jewel, Detection. lib. 5. pag. 410. who doth not only cite that book, but also (as though he had known it very well) quote very many places out of the same, as he is charged by Doctor Harding: which argueth that out of true books he could have proved any thing for himself, that out of one, which was never written, found so many testimonies to serve his turn. I would not wish Master Udall, to employ his time so badly, as with the touch of his credit, and peril of his own soul, to retale the untruths of such gross Merchants. T. V. THat, which you call Poison, is rather an Antidote against the infection of such poisoned spirits, as yours: But to the matter, it is true, that in the Preface of my book I have charged the Papists justly with blasphemy. The force of my reason there may be thus deduced. Those, which have published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures, have uttered open blasphemy: But the Papists have published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures: Ergo, the Papists have uttered open blasphemy. The Mayor is evident, and the Minor is proved by Cardinal Cusanus, Sylvester Prierias, Boniface, the Archbishop of Mentz, Hosius, Eckius, and others. Against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus. If Cardinal Cusanus never writ any such book, than there is no such blasphemy: But Cardinal Cusanus never writ any such book: Ergo, there is no such blasphemy. I deny the consequence of the proposition, though Master B. C. would insinuate, by the question, and answer, That there had been no other proof, to justify my accusation, but that of the Cardinals, saying: But where is this blasphemy contained? In a Book (as he telleth us) of Cardinal Cusanus, which is entitled, De Authoritate, etc. Of the Authority, etc. What? In that book only? And not also in divers other places, and authors? Why are all those omitted? Why is this one singled out of the heard? Surely, because this seemed likely to admit some cavil; they were out of danger. But is it a just difference; whether the blasphemy be in the Title of the Book, or in the book itself? For albeit, it were not in the title of the book (as both Bishop jewel, and Doctor Downam affirm it is) yet it is in the book of his Epistles, as I have showed in the Preface: And to convince evidently this blasphemy of the Cardinals I will show once again. The Blasphemy maintained is, that they were to receive the Communion in both kinds, according to the Scriptures: against which the Cardinal, opposeth himself, in divers places of his Epistles, and for the justifying of his assertion, he urgeth these words, as I have set them down in the Preface. It is no marvel (saith he) though the practice of the Church, Nicola. Cusa. ad Bohem. Epist. 7 expound the Scriptures, at one time one way, and at another time another way; For the understanding or sense of the Scriptures runneth with the practice, and that sense agreeing with the practice is the quickening spirit; And a little after he concludes, And therefore the Scriptures follow the Church, but contrariwise the Church followeth not the Scriptures. Now that, which precedes in authority, is above that which follows: and so the Church, by their divinity, is avouched to be above the Scriptures. And if the Church follow not the Scriptures, it is evident (if God, and his word be both one) That he, that is not with the Scripture is against it. And so the matter of the Epistle is all one with that title of the authority of the Church and Council, above and against the Scriptures, though the Epistle itself be not so entitled. And that you may know this opinion or blasphemy, is not peculiar to the Cardinal, or to one Papist only: Eckius in his Enchiridion of the authority of the Church, Answ. the third, hath set down, that this position: The Scripture is greater than the authority of the Church is to be reputed amongst heretical assertions, and that the contrary proposition is Catholic. And this blasphemy of theirs is so general, that you shall find this sentence often inserted in the Common Law. The Church is above the Scriptures. The other place of the Cardinals there noted, is this: This is the judgement, (saith he) of all them that think rightly; that they found the authority, Ad Bohem. Epist. 2. and understanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church; and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authority of the Scriptures. Now if this be sound divinity; then may your proud Clergy, assume unto themselves to be Lords of the Scriptures. For how directly so ever the Scriptures be against them (as in this instance of the communion to be had in both kinds, it is most directly) they may give it what sense they list: yea expound it to day, after one fashion; and to morrow after another, as shall please the Pope, and his Clergy: which can no way agree with the spirit of God; who is always one and the same. And if this convince not the Cardinal's blasphemy: See the 3. Epistle of the same book pag. 838. where he saith, When the Church changeth her judgement, God also changeth his. But admit I had failed in this proof: yet had the other testimonies been sufficient, to approve the truth of my accusation: if these and such like may justly be termed blasphemies a sylvest Prior, cont. Lutheri conclusiones de potest. Pap. That indulgences are warranted unto us, not by the authority of the Scriptures, but by the authority of the Church, and Pope of Rome; which is greater. b Dist. 40. C. Si Papa. That they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religion from the Pope, then from the holy Scripture. c Eckius de Eccles. That the Scripture is not authentical, but by the authority of the Church: d Henric. Magist. Sacr Pa●atii Romae ad legate Bohem. sub Felice pap. 1447. That the Pope may change the holy Gospel, etc. e Vid. Kempnit. exam. part. 1. pag. 47. That the Scripture, without the authority of the church, is of no better worth than Esopes Fables. And because I will be as charitable to Master B. C. and as full of good wishes though I have no hope of his conversion) as he is to me: I could wish, that he would not employ his time so badly, as to colour or justify such open, and palpable blasphemy. And surely, would such as read both Popish, and Protestants books, Try the spirits, whether they be of God or no; would not the Popish Priests prohibit the reading of our books: would the Papists therein hold any indifferency; it were not possible, that they could be so sedused with Popery. B. C. Sect. 3. IN his fourth page, thus he writeth. Yea Arias Montanus a chief Papist, in his Hebrew Bible, writeth in the forefront and principal leaf of the book. There are addded (saith he) in this edition, the books written in Greek, which the Catholic Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha. The true sense of Arias Montanus words is corrupted, either by Master Udall, or some other, from whom he had them, by foisting in divers of their own. That learned man in the edition of the Hebrew Bible, Arituerplae ex officin● Christoph. Plaut. 1584. with the Latin interlineall interpretation, in the Title page, saith. There are adjoined to this edition, the books written in Greek, which are called Apocrypha. He saith not, they be Apocrypha: but that they are so called by some, that is the jews, who exclude them from their Hebrew Canon, which he had there set forth. That other addition, viz. which the Catholic Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the (Apocrypha) upon which the force of his charge dependeth, are not in Arias Montanus: where Master Udall had them, himself best knoweth. T. V. IT is true, that in the fourth page I have showed, how the Papists descent from the Fathers both ancient and modern. The reason there may thus be deduced. That Church, which dissents from the Fathers, both ancient, and modern; touching the Canonical, and Apocryphal Scriptures, cannot truly boast of their agreement with them in all points: But the Popish Church dissents from the Fathers, both ancient, and modern, touching the Canonical, and Apocryphal Scriptures: Ergo, the Popish Church cannot truly boast of their agreement with them in all points. The Mayor is plain in itself; and the Minor is proved by these testimonies, (a) Hier. in prol. galea. & epist. ad Pauli. et in praefa. lib. Reg. et in praefa. prolo. Salom. S. Hierom (b) Ruf. in his expo. upon the Creed. Rufinus, (c) Cyril. of Hieru. in the 4. of his Catachis. Cyrill of Jerusalem, (d) Athan. in Synop. Salu. Sempit. Athanasius, (e) Nazianz. in carminib. Nazianzen, (f) Epipha. de mensu. et pond. Epiphanius, (g) Cypr. upon the Creed. Cyprian, (h) Damas'. 49. Damascenus, (i) Hugo. de Sanct. vict. de Sac. in prolog. lib. 1. cap. 7. Hugo de Sanct. victor. (k) Radul. in Leuit. lib. 14. cap. 1. Radulphus (l) Lyr. in pro. in lib. Apoc. Lyra, (m) Hugo Car. in pr. josua. Hugo Cardinalis. And (n) Arias in his Hebrew Bible. Arias Montanus, Against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus. If Arius Montanus be corrupted by M. Udall, or some other, from whom he had them, by foisting in words of their own, upon which the force of the charge dependeth, then is Master Udall, or some other, from whence he had them, proved to be corrupters, and those Scriptures, which we defend to be Canonical, are not convinced to be Apocryphal. But the Antecedent is true. Ergo, the Consequent. I deny the consequence of the proposition, because if this place had been misalleaged; yet had that, which I intended, been sufficiently convinced by the testimonies of the other fathers and writers, which I alleged. And is not this a substantial argument, for such a disputant as Master B. C. would be presumed to be, by his many, and several conjuring, adjurings, Prefat. Sect. 18. of his book. and exorcisms of M. Bell to disputation? But, if herein the untruth, and corruption be justly returned upon himself; with what countenance will he look upon his followers, when it may happily come to their knowledge, That he, that is the Counter challenger, & common taxer of others, shall be found guilty of that crime, which he objects to others. Would God that lay Papists would make trial of their teacher's sincerity, whereof they brag so much, by accusing others. But to clear myself from this corruption; let the Reader see the same Hebrew Bible which is noted by Master B. C. 1584. and he shall find the words as I have alleged them, truly delivered; which for his better satisfaction, I will set down in Latin, lest he except against the translation. The words be these, Accesserunt, & huic aeditioni, libri Graecè Scripti, quos Ecclesia orthodoxa, Hebraeorum Canonem secuta, inter Apocryphos recenset. There are added (saith he) to this edition the books written in Greek, which the Catholic Church, following the Canon of the Hebrews, receiveth amongst the Apocrypha. Thus you see I have proved that, whereon you confess the force of my charge dependeth; and therefore, by your own confession those Scriptures, which the Protestants reject, are approved to be Apocrypha. But for that I am a lay Gentleman, and Master B. C. A student in Divinity, I may not usurp that speech of his, and tell him; That if he looked into the originals, he could not retail the untruth of such gross Merchants. B. C. Sect. 4. IN the fift page, he writeth thus. The Council of Laodicea, assured by a general Council of Trullo, did set down the same Canon of the Scriptures, which both the old Church had, Can. 59 & our Church holdeth: and commandeth. Ne aliqui, etc. That none besides be read, and received into authority. How many things of note, are comprised in these few lines against Master Udall. First he seemeth greatly to reverence these two Counsels, which yet is but a copy of his countenance, to delude the ignorant Reader, for I do not think that he will stand either to the one or other, though content he is, to press us with their authority. For example, the Council of Laodicea, Can. 48. Can. 50. commandeth Crisme to be received after Baptism: and that the fast of lent be observed: neither of which, I am sure, pleaseth Master Udall. Likewise the Council of Constantinople holden in Trullo alloweth of images, and their veneration, when it calleth them, imagines venerabiles, venerable images, which I make no doubt, nothing pleaseth his taste. Can. 82. Can 6. Can. 58. The same Council forbiddeth Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and Subdeacons', to marry wives after taking of Orders: and commandeth Bishops not to dwell with their wives, which they married before they entered into the higher Orders of the Clergy: which severity of theirs must utterly dislike him, as being in his opinion, contrary to the word of God. T. V. IT is true that in the fift page, I have alleged the Council of Laodicea allowed by a general Council of Constantinople in Trullo, for the proof of that Canon of the Scriptures, which is in question between the Papists and us; The force of my reason there, may be thus deduced. The Canon of the Scriptures, which is set down by a particular Council, allowed by a general Council, is to be held as good and sufficient: But the Canon of the Scriptures approved by the Church of England, is set down by a particular Council, allowed by a general Council: Ergo, the Canon of the Scriptures approved by the Church of England, is to be held as good and sufficient. The Mayor is proved by all those Papists, that prefer the Council before the Pope; for till late days there was no controversy hereof. The Minor is proved by the words of the Council set down by me, as M. B.C. relates them: Wherein many things of note (as he saith) are comprised against me, which notes of his I will handle particularly. The force of his reason in this Section, lies thus. If the Council of Laodicea, and the general Council of Constantinople in Trullo do hold divers things as Chrism, and that Priests should not marry after ordination, etc. which Master Vdal dislikes: then is it but a copy of Master Udal's countenance to delude the ignorant, to seem to reverence those Counsels by pressing us with their authority. But the antecedent is true. Ergo, the consequent. If I would trifle as Master B. C. doth, I could tell him, that it followeth in the same 6. Canon, that if those, which will he of the Clergy, will marry before ordination they may. And in the 13. Canon, that they may not be separated from their wives, nor deprived of the use of them: and that those, which under pretext of piety, expel their wives, are to be excommunicated: all which I am sure pleaseth not Master B. C. chaste ears. But could any man, that professeth himself a student in Divinity, reason thus impertinently; if he were not persuaded, that any thing would pass for currant amongst the seduced Papists: and can any man be ignorant, that hath read my book; that the whole scope, and drift thereof, tends to show the weakness of the Grounds of Popery: of which, that of Counsels, is held a chief one with them. For howsoever the controversy amongst themselves; Whether the Pope be above the Council, or the Council above the Pope: Or whether Counsels should be confirmed by the Pope, or not confirmed; be not yet determined: yet we profess to reverence Counsels no farther, than their doctrine is consonant, and agreeable to the Scriptures: according to the opinion of that famous clerk Saint Austin; who writing against Maximinus long before this new Popery was hatched, saith thus: Cont. Max. lib. 3. ca 14. But neither aught I to produce the Council of Nice, nor you the Council of Ariminum for a prejudice; for neither am I tied to the authority of this, nor you to the authority of that; but let matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason; contend by the authority of the Scriptures, not proper to any, but indifferent witnesses to both parts. You see hear, and may in divers other places of my book, what opinion S. Austin had of Counsels, that would not have his adversary tied, to the authority of the great Council of Nice; comparable to which no Council was ever yet, since the Apostles. But if I had failed in this proof, yet was the matter there intended sufficiently proved by other testimonies; which you acknowledge to be your own grounds. Greg. Tom. 3. pag. 291. Neither was it urged to delude the ignorant, as you either ignorantly or maliciously affirm but rather to show, how you vary both from Fathers and Counsels, when they make against you. B. C. Sect. 5. SEcondly this Council of Constantinople in Trullo is of no authority, as in which the Pope neither by himself, nor by his Legates, was present, Lib. de sex aet atibus In justiniano. and Pope Sergius, who then lived, did disannul that erratical Synod, as venerable Bede writeth: with what conscience then can Master Udall call that a general Council, and urge the authority thereof as authentical: when as not only we, but also the Protestants utterly reject it, albeit in this point, we for our parts see no cause to refuse it. Thirdly true it is not, that the Council of Laodicea setteth down the same Canon of the Scriptures, which the Church of England alloweth: for the Apocalypse or Revelation of Saint john is omitted. Fourthly, this Council forbiddeth the reading of others, not there expressed: yet the Church of England readeth the histories of judith, and Toby in their public assemblies: which Master Udall I suppose will hardly show, how it agreeth with the decree of that Council. Fiftly he hath corrupted be Council by adding somewhat of his own: for these words: and received into authority be not there found. Would any ever have thought, that so many things, could have been noted against him, in so small a sentence? If Master Udall hath viewed the original; hardly can he be excused from malice: if he hath not, let him beshrew their fingers, upon whose credit, he committed them to writing. T. V. IN this fift Section, Master B. C. hath showed great store of small knowledge; by telling how many things of note, Are comprised in these few lines against me: For if these notes, convince him of much weakness to handle controversies; then may his Popish dependents wish: that he had answered with silence, as Doctor Norris did before him: lest his too much haste further his own disgrace: if I may return his own words. But let us examine the particulars. In the first note, the reason lies thus. All Counsels, that are of authority, must have the Pope, or his Legates present: But this Council had neither the Pope nor his Legates present: Ergo, this Council is of no authority. I deny the Mayor, for I hope Master B. C. being so great a disputant, will not still beg the question. And we may well hold this position, A novelty of Popery: unless Master B. C. can show us (which never any yet did) some testimonies of the ancient Fathers, that are not counterfeit; that ever wrote or taught this doctrine. Besides master B. C. cannot be ignorant: * Sciendun est quod in universalibus octo concilijs, ubi imperatores interfuerunt, & non Papa, semper invenio imperatores & judices suos, cum senatu, primatum habuisse, & officium praesidentiae per interlocutiones, & ex consensu Synodi, conclusiones & judicium fecisse, & non invenitur instantia in octo concilijs, preterquam in tertia actione concilij Chalcedonensis. Cusan. lib. 3. cap. 16. de concord. Cathol. Cap. 19 That the ancient and first Counsels, were neither called by the Pope: nor he, either by himself, or his Legates, Precedent therein. And in the second general Council holden at Constantinople, Bellarmine confesseth, that the Pope was neither there in person, nor by his Legates; and also he saith, De cont. li. 2. ca 14. that Petrus de Aliaco, and Cusanus, both Cardinals, Gerson, Almain, Antoninus, Tostatus, and many others held, That the Council is above the Pope. And the same hath also been decreed in the three general Counsels of Pisa, Constance, and Basill; and as yet the contrary was never decreed: as Doctor Whittaker showeth in the fift question of his Tract of Counsels, and as Bellarmine confesseth, the question remaineth amongst the Catholics to this day. With what Scholarship or conscience than can Master B. C. conclude the Council to be of no authority, because neither the Pope, nor his Legates were present. And if Master B. C. be so well read in controversies, as it should seem: then can he not choose but speak against his own knowledge: for he cannot be ignorant, that many Popes have cited these Canons, since it appears even by our adversaries; that these Canons were in times past held for the Canons of the sixth Synod: And Gratiane often cities them in his decrees, & always calls them Canons of the sixth Synod. And in Gratian dist. 16. cap. 6. Adrian the Pope saith, Sextam Synodum sanctam cum omnibus suis Canonibus recipio, I receive the sixth holy Synod with all the Canons thereof. And though Canus say, That this Council made no Canons, yet the same is openly refuted in Gratian. And Innocent in his Tract of the age, and quality of those to be ordered, citeth one of these Canons, & calls it a Canon of the 6. Synod. And the same also Gratian citeth dist. 3 2. cap. Si quis. And Pope Adrian the first in the Epistle to Tarasius, which is extant in the second action of the seventh Synod openly confirms it. And though Bellarmine answer, that Adrian only reciteth the sentence of Tarasius, and refels it not, because it was profitable to the question then handled; yet doth Pope Adrian use these words, In sextae Sinodi Divine, & legaliter praedicatis Canonibus. In the Canons of the sixth Synod, holily and lawfully published. And the Pope's Legates demanded of the sacred Synod, whether they received the letters of the most holy Pope or no? The sacred Synod answered, we follow, receive & approve them. And what other thing is this but to confirm the Canons of the sixth Synod? Neither is it any strange matter for one Pope and a Council to condemn the decrees of another Pope and Council; As I have showed in my book, pag. 58. 59 Of Pope Stephan and Pope john. And thus much for the first note. The reason of his second note lies thus. If Venerable Bede saith, that the Pope did disannul that erratical Synod: then cannot Master Udall with conscience call it a general Council, and urge the authority thereof as authentical: But the antecedent is true: Ergo, the consequent. I deny the consequence, and demand of Master B. C. why I may not with as good a conscience as Bellarmine, and divers Popes and Papists before alleged, call it a general Council: for Bellarmine reckoneth this Council amongst those general Counsels, which are partly approved, partly reproved. And Caranza that gathered the sum of the Counsels, showeth immediately before the Canons, that nine Canons, of the same Synod were rejected as bastards, and that these 102. Canons were not as yet forsaken and cast off. And though many hold that this Council made no Canons, yet a Council made them with credit of a general Council. Prefat. Synod. Trul. ad justini. And the next general Council did confirm them. Conc. Nic. 2. cap. 1. And Caranza showeth that the Canons were made in supply of the other two Counsels that wanted, and therefore it was not numbered as the sixth, but called Quini Sexta; because it supplied that which was wanting to the fift and sixth. And yet he calls it a general Council. Now could any man of M. B. C. learning upon Bedes authority, urge such consequents against all these proofs before alleged. And for my urging it as authentical, I have showed before how far we receive the authority of general Counsels; and the reason why I urged it. But I pray you master B.C. is this a Maxim in your Divinity: That whatsoever any ancient Father hath said, is to be believed? Surely, Saint Austin was of another mind. For he challengeth to himself a liberty to judge, In quorumlibet hominum scriptis, De nature. & gra. contr. pelag. ca 61. Ibidem. In the writings of all men whatsoever, And addeth this reason, because I do consent without any stay to the Canonical Scriptures only, Cont. Faust lib. 11. ca 5. The rest must be read as he teacheth, Non cum credendi necessitate, sed cum judicandi libertate, Not with a necessity to believe them, but with a liberty to judge them. Epist. 48. de Peccat. Merit. & Remiss. l. 1. c. 22 And must be distinguished from the authority of the Canon, For that the authority of the sacred Scriptures can neither deceive nor be deceived. Cont. Crescon. lib. 2. cap. 3. And by those books we may freely judge of other writings, both of Christians and Infidels. And thus much for the second note. The reason of the third note lies thus. If the Revelation of Saint john be omitted by the Council of Laodicea, then doth not the Council set down the same Canon of the Scriptures, which the Church of England alloweth: But the antecedent is true: Ergo, the consequent. Master B. C. would feign find a knot in a rush, so much doth it please his cavilling, & carping spirit. For if he had observed in the third page of my Book, that the answer which I there set down, in the name of the Protestant toucheth only the books, which are in question beeweene us, he might have found, that the proof I there brought, was touching the Hebrew Canon of the old Testament. Whereof I might truly say, that this Council setteth down the same Canon of the Scriptures, which both the old Church had, and our Church doth hold: for reproof whereof, the omitting of the Revelation by the Council of Laodicea (which was not in question) was impertinently alleged by you. And thus much for the third note. The reason of his fourth note lies thus. If the Council forbidden the reading of other books not there expressed: then Master Udall can hardly show, how the Church of England, reading the history of judith and Toby in their public assemblies, agreeth with the decree of that Council: But the antecedent is true: Ergo, the consequent. Is not this substantial stuff, and worthy of Master B. C. learning? What if I could not show this? What inconvenience were it to the Church of England; or what advantageth it my adversary? Doth any of us acknowledge, that the Church of England, is bound to follow the decrees of counsels in all things? Blush then for shame is reason thus idly: yet we say with S. Hierom. That the Church readeth those books, See the 4. page of my book. Hierom. praefa. in lib. Solom. Rufin. in expos. Symb. apud Cyprian but receiveth them not amongst the Canonical Scriptures: And that they are read for instruction of manners, but not alleged for confirmation of doctrine. But it seems Master B. C. was much pressed by some of his followers to answer my book: And therefore to give them some satisfaction, he would say somewhat, though it were to little purpose. And thus much for the fourth note. The reason of his fift note lieth thus. If these words (And received into authority) be not to be found in that Council: then M. Udall hath corrupted the Council by adding some thing of his own: But the Antecedent is true: Ergo, the consequent. To this I answer, that those words are found in the Council; and therefore Master Udall is slanderously charged by Master B. C. The words are these, Quae autem oporteat legi, & in authoritatem recipi, hec sunt. Those Books which must be read and received into authority, are these. From which thus I dispute, those books, which are to be received into authority, are those set down by the Council: But the books we call Apocrypha, are not there set down by the Council: Ergo, those books, which we call Apocrypha, are not to be received into authority. Now, that I may pay M B. C. in his own coin, how many of these his worthy notes, may be returned him; for having neither truth, nor Scholarship; as the using that silly shift of wrangling Sophisters; to take that for granted, which he should have proved: The weakness of his consequence: the charging me to use the testimony of the Council, for the Canon of the New Testament, which he knew I applied to the old Testament: the urging of impertinent reasons without end, or purpose: and the charging me with corrupting the Council, when the same words are there found? would any man have thought, that he, that takes upon him to be a Censurer of others, should have been justly convinced, of so many gross oversights before alleged? B. C. Sect. 6. IN the same fift page, he maketh us to allow the fourth book of Esdras most untruly, and that contrary to his own knowledge, when as in the second page he confesseth, that we account both the third and fourth of Esdras for Apocrypha. T. V. IN the same page, (from whence you take this exception) my words are these, I omit many several contradictions, in all or most of the books, which we reject, and they allow, whereby they may be convinced, not to be written by the spirit of God, which is always one, and the same. See the 4. of Esdras 10.20. and 2. Maccab. 2.4. and 1. Mac. 1.6. and 8. touching Antiochus. My reason here may be thus deduced. Those books, which imply contradiction in themselves, cannot come from the spirit of God, who is always one and the same: But all, or most of the books, which we reject, and they allow, imply contradiction in themselves: Ergo, all or most of the books, which we reject, and they allow, cannot come from the spirit of God, who is always one and the same. The Mayor is evident, and the Minor is, in part thus proved: and may more largely hereafter, if occasion be offered. Antiochus is said, in the first book of Maccabees ca 6. to die in Babylon for grief of the good success of the jews: and in the 2. book cap. 1. Antiochus was, with the rest of the Soldiers, slain in the Temple of Nanea, and his head cut off, and thrown forth. And in the ninth chapter, That he died a miserable death in a strange Country amongst the mountains, against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus. He that makes us to allow and disallow one and the same book, speaks untruly contrary to his knowledge: But T. V in his fift page, makes us allow the fourth book of Esdras, which in the second page, he confesseth, we disallow: Ergo, T.U. speaks untruly, contrary to his own knowledge. You here charge me with the right nature of a lie, though you pretend, you would not have the quarrel of God prosecuted like the quarrels of the world: but you have enured your tongue to such immodest terms; that you cannot much tax me, if I have been more sharp, than I purposed. But I deny your Minor, and if you can, withal your Schollershippe (out of my words, which I have set down of purpose) convince me either of untruth, or contradiction: I will acknowledge you to have more learning, than you have yet showed in your book. All, that I might have been charged with, was the misquoting of the Chapters, and the bidding you see the fourth of Esdras: which being received by both, cannot fit your cavilling spirit to imply any contradiction or untruth in my words: but you are fit to cavil, then to answer the reason there brought: and yet this place must make up the number; but I pity your necessity. B. C. Sect. 7. Lib. 1. de Con. cil. cap. 6. and not lib. 10. cap. 60. as M. Udall quoteth it. PAge, 51. To eneruat the force of general counsels thus he writeth. Bellar. rejecteth wholly seven general Counsels. That learned Prelate is injuriously entreated, for who would not think, that Master Udall spoke of lawful and true general councils, as though such were rejected by Bellarmine, which is nothing so: for he speaketh of certain detestable conventicles, assembled by the Arrians and other like perfidious heretics, which they called general, Primum generale, etc. The first General Council (saith Bellarmine) in the opinion of the Arrians, which is rejected, is the Council of Antioch, etc. If these be detested by Protestants also for unlawful and wicked, why is Cardinal Bellarmine singled out as though he alone refused them? or the matter so cunningly delivered, as though they were reverenced by Master Udall and Protestants for lawful general Counsels? This is not to deal sincerely, and to seek truth with a pure and upright heart, unless he be so careless, as to receive all upon the report of others, which yet cannot wholly be excused. T. V. IN the 51. page, my reason lies thus. If Papists reject general Counsels, we may reject them: But Papists reject general Counsels: Ergo, we may reject them. The Minor is proved in the 50. 51. page, etc. by Andradius, Bellarmine, Pighius, and Pope Leo. Against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus. If those Counsels rejected by Bellarmine, were the unlawful conventicles of the Arians, and no other: and such as the Protestants hold for unlawful and wicked Counsels; Then is that learned Prelate injuriously dealt with by Master Udall, to enervate the force of general Counsels: which is not to seek the truth with an upright heart: But the Antecedent is true: Ergo, the Consequent. I deny the Minor, for Bellarmine in the same Section rejecteth the Council of Constantinople and Chalcedon, as (no doubt) be doth divers other Counsels, that have resisted the Bishop of Rome. But do not I charge Bellarmine truly with the rejection of seven general Counsels? But you will say these were no lawful Counsels: Why so? you must now run to your old shift, and say, because they were not confirmed by the Pope. Damasus in pontificuli. vide Fulk. Rhem. Test. Act. 15. Sect 7. And yet Liberius the Pope subscribing to the heresy of the Arians (as S. Hierom saith) no doubt confirmed some of them. But you will say, These were wicked, and detestable Conventicles: so say the Protestants. But what makes them detestable? not the want of confirmation (for then this doctrine was not dreamt of) but their corruption in doctrine. For many Counsels lawfully called, and lawful and general Counsels, and such as Popes have confirmed; have broached many unsound doctrines, as I have given some particular instances in my book and shall give more, as occasion shall be offered. Which yet I will confirm by a learned Papist, (equal with Master B. C. in learning, and judgement) as I have cited him in my book. Pighius saith, It is certain, that not only these Counsels of Constance and Basill, Pighius Hierar. Eccle. lib. 6. ca 4. & 5. &. 13. which we now disprove, have shamefully and absurdly erred, but also many others. And again, we find, that general Counsels, even of holy Fathers, have erred in decrees of faith: for example of general Counsels, The Council of Ariminum, universal no doubt; and also the Council of Ephesus, and that likewise universal: these I say are witnesses, that even general Counsels and those lawfully gathered, may err. You see Master B. C. That Pighius, no partial witness for us, calls some of those Counsels lawful, and general, which Bellarmine rejects: and likewise he rejects the Counsels of Constance and Basill: wherein (no doubt) Bellarmine agrees with him, in that point, where those Counsels prefer the Council before the Pope. And yet Pope Martin the fift, in the last Session of the Council of Constance approveth in his Bull all those decrees, which were made by this Council in matters of faith, & praiseth and confirmeth them. And for the Council of Basill, The Divines of Paris praise and defend the authority thereof against Leo the tenth, and their commendation and defence thereof is extant in print. And if Master B. C. sincerity were such, as he pretends, he could not be ignorant, that Papists have rejected those Counsels, which cannot be denied to be both lawful, and general. And if the untruths, you have objected against Master Bell, and Master Rogers, be no better proved, you have blotted much paper, to little purpose. For what are these exceptions against my book, but a ridiculous biting at the heel, when you are wounded at the heart? B. C. Sect. 8. THus much shall serve at this time, for by God's assistance, I intent hereafter more to lay open the manifold maladies of his treatise, and to show with what weak engines he laboureth to undermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholic Church. God grant that the happy news of his conversion, may cross these my designments, whereof I see no cause to despair, if truly zeal of religion, and desire of salvation, which so much he would seem to thirst after, hath embouldened him being a lay man, to launch into the depth of these mystical matters. Let him not rely too much unto those, from whom he receiveth the substance of that he writeth, lest together with the loss of his reputation, he incur also the danger of eternal damnation: and if upon this small warning, he findeth himself to have been deceived, wisdom would, he should more carefully look how he trusteth, where he hath been abused: and with greater diligence both to examine his own writers, and also to read ours, namely Cardinal Bellarmine, where he shall find the most of his objections answered, as the Catholic author of that letter, which he hath put down in his book, truly informeth him. To which, that giveth no satisfaction, alleged by M. Udall for answer, to wit, that Bellarmine's reasons, are by the learned of his side sufficiently handled and replied unto: when as the most of the arguments in his book be answered by Bellarmine, and nothing do I find brought by M. Udall to infringe his solutions: which giveth me just cause to suspect, that he is with the preconceyted sincerity of his own doctors, carried away into error, and so looketh little into the Originals: which if he did, he could not but find that which he pretendeth to seek for, if he shut not his eyes against the truth, as he professeth he will not. Which that he may do, I shall not forget to commend him to his mercy, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but that all should come to the knowledge of his name. But if it shall fall out, that he will still proceed forward in his former course, yet I would wish him in writing, to abstain from all biting and bitter words, which sometime he breaketh into, that the quarrel of God may not be prosecuted like the quarrels of this world, but with that modesty, which becometh the professors of divinity and religion. T. V. YOu see M. B. C. that I have justified and freed myself, from all those unjust imputations, wherewith you charged me. And therefore since you engage yourself, by this your promise; To lay open the manifold maladies of my former Treatise: and to show with what weak engines (as you phrase them) I labour to undermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholic Church: I hope you will take warning by this little, that hath been showed you; to deal more sincerely in that which is to come: wherein it shall be much for your own credit, and the reputation of the Catholic cause, whereof you so much boast, to be so impregnable: that you answer not by patches and pieces, picked here and there for your most advantage (as your Common custom is) but that you set down my words verbatim: with the same equity that I have showed in this, for if you deal otherwise, I shall scarce judge you worthy of any further answer. And in the mean time I dare promise, That your designments shall no way be crossed with the news of my conversion: though I protest, I will weigh the reasons, that shall be delivered by you hereafter, with all indifferency and good conscience. Albeit, I think it no such boldness, as you censure it, To launch into the depth of these mystical matters: since I hold it the duty of every Christian, to know the grounds of his Religion to be infallible; before he build his faith thereon. And for the relying upon any man. I neither have, nor will, further than truth shall warrant, as near as God shall mable me to judge; so that if I be deceived (which I see no cause yet to distrust) it is error in my judgement, not evil affection in my will. And whereas you wish me to read your Authors: I may truly say, I never refused to read any of them: nor conference with any, how learned so ever: Or how much so ever I might thereby have disadvantaged myself: and yet I was still more and more confirmed in the opinion I now hold; and wherein I hope to die: unless Master B.C. will, for the merit of winning souls, make known some more certainty in the grounds of Popery, than I ever yet read, or heard of. You tell me, That Bellarmine hath answered most of my objections, as the Catholic Author of that letter (inserted by me) hath truly informed me, to which (you say) my answer giveth no satisfaction. And which yet is strange, you confess my answer to be this: That Bellarmine's reasons are by the learned of our side, sufficiently handled and replied too. Against which (very absurdly in my poor opinion (you reiterate the same speech again; and say, That the most of the arguments in my book, be answered by Bellarmine; and that you find nothing brought by me to infringe his solutions:; Insinuating, with more skill, than sincerity, That you had urged some particular instances thereof; whereto I had said nothing. But if you had truly laid down my answer in my letter; it would much have blemished the reputation, both of yourself, and that Catholic Author; That being so much urged by me, neither of you both could, or would bring any such instance. And how should I give a solution to that, which neitherof you both ever instanced, though I much urged it in my letter, as these words there testify, viz. And whereas you refer me in the conclusion of your letter, to Bellarmine de Pont. & de Consiliis, where you say, I shall find most of my objections of the errors of Popes, and Counsels refuted: so can I, when soever you shall instance any such particular refutation (which may ease you of some pains if it be so sufficiently performed) refer you to some of the Authors, of our side; where the same reasons, have been with no less sufficiency handled, and replied too: assuring myself, that neither any of you have or can, make any objection against the doctrine we profess, that hath not been already objected, and likewise by us answered. And if any can show me the contrary, I will be beholding to him; neither will I shut mine eyes against the truth. May you not now blush M. B. C. to affirm, that this my answer gives no satisfaction? And having read this, to avouch, That you find nothing brought by M. Udall to infringe his solutions: When neither the Author of that Catholic letter then, (as I have said) nor yourself now, durst, as it may be presumed, instance an answer out of Bellarmine, to any one particular objection of mine? And yet, if you had done this; it had been but expense, and loss both of labour and time. For as oft as you produce any answer, of the writers of your side against us: so oft must I bring the reply of the learned of our side, in discharge thereof: and so according to the fashion of this age, fill the world full of books, touching these controversies, which have been already handled, with much more sufficiency, then either of us can: for I am very confident, that neither you, nor I, can bring any thing touching this subject; that hath not been already said: howsoever we may give it a new gloss, thereby to make it seem to be our own. And since you wish me, if I be willing to proceed; (whereto I am both ready and willing) to abstain from all biting, and bitter words; that the quarrel of God may not be prosecuted, like the quarrels of this world: I must likewise wish, for my own Apology, that you had observed this your own rule to me & others: for than had I not failed in satisfying this so good a desire. And for the better effecting thereof hereafter, and for the sounder trial of those impregnable grounds, whereof you are so confident: I earnestly request, and conjure you by the love of truth; that we may both appear, at the judicial seat of a true Syllogism (which we may do without any safe conduct) where the substance of the plea, between us shall be: whether there be any certainty in the grounds of Popery. And for that it seemeth by your facility in answering three books at once (for so no doubt your Popish followers will conceive of it) That you are so conversant in controversies, That a man cannot fail to receive satisfaction at your hands: I beseech you, that this my request may be performed Logically by Syllogisms, & Theologically, by Scripture proof. So shall we avoid all impertinent discoursing and trifling; all gibing, and reproaching, and so charitably without bitterness, or endeavour to disgrace each other; finish this combat to God's glory, and to the satisfaction of many: for if your grounds can be justified; all controversies, will quickly be ended. But I have no great hope to draw you to this course; for you know too well, That the grounds of your Religion cannot abide the touchstone of this trial: though it would he great glory to you, but to undertake that, which none of the learned of your side, could ever yet be drawn too: though I am persuaded, your Popish dependents will assure themselves, you will not refuse so sure, and learned a trial. But to conclude with the same charity to you, which you seem to show to me; I will pray unto my God, that he will enlighten your heart and understanding, with the spirit of his wisdom and grace: that you may discern the truth of Christian Religion, to the glory of God and your own Salvation. Tho. Udall. FINIS. Good Reader, let me request thy favourable censure touching the faults committed by the Printer, which escaped by reason of my absence at the time of the printing, and partly by the difficulty of the hand in the Copy: all which I pray thee first take notice of, as they are set down here following and then read in their due places, as they are here amended and corrected. Faults escaped. IN the Preface pag. 3. line last, for fellows read followers. p. 5. l. 13. there for Questions, r. quotations. l. 17. for them r. then. l. 18. for them. r. thee. Pag. 4. l. 16. for I have yet made you r. you have yet made, p. 6 l. 12. for may be borrowed. r. may be he borrowed, p. 8. l. 14. for But is it a just difference. r. But it is a nice difference, li. 23. for blasphemy maintained is, r. Bohemians maintained, p. 14. l. 19 for whence r. whom, p. 16. l. 4. for receiveth r. reckoneth. p. 18. l. 16. after the word Pope add these words, who are very many, p. 27. l. 27. for I do r. I owe. p. 31. l. 12. for consequence r. consequentes p. 34. l. 10. for received r. rejected. In the Margin Pag. 8. l. 18. Doct. Downam against Antich. l. 5. Sect. 10. omitted. p. 11. for Heric. Magist. r. Heric. doctor Magist. p. 14. for Salu. sempit. r. sacr. script. for de sar. de sacram. p. 21. Greg. Tom. 3. p. 291. placed in the margin to no purpose. p. 27. this quotation Prefac. synod Trul. ad justin. should be placed 2. lines higher. Many of which the careful reader I hope will easily observe and pardon.