A DIALOGUE OR DISCOURSE between a Parliament-man And a Roman-Catholick, Touching The present state of Recusants in ENGLAND.  
And showing how from time to time they have always Maintained their Religion by Treason and Conspiracies.   printer's or publisher's device 
Printed in the year 1641.   

A Dialogue or Discourse between a Parliament-man and a Roman Catholic.  Catholic. 
SIR, What are your Senators resolved to ruin all Catholics?  Prost. 
We shall proceed against you according to the Laws.  Cath. 
But the Laws sometimes may be suspended: for when the cause and motive of the Law doth universally cease, the Law itself may be annulled.  Prot. 
True: but not in our case; for the motives, which heretofore induced our Parliaments to enact Statutes against Recufants, do still continue, neither are they as yet universally ceased. Therefore the neglect of putting them in execution is both offensive to God, and dangerous to our State.  Cath. 
Yet I cannot see, why the suspension of a rigorous hand, and a charitable moderation of your illimited power over a small number of poor Catholics can breed a scruple in your Conscience, on be offensive to Almighty God, for although in your opinion the Religion of Catholics be false, and consequently, that your zeal to the Truth do urge you to suffer no miscreants among you: yet this zeal being only grounded upon the literal text of the Scripture, interpreted by yourselves, how can you think that the explication of this sacred authority is so evident, as that he may justly be punished, who will not adhere to your opinion. But however, may you not in sure charity without offence to God suffer us to live amongst you, with intention to bring us to the knowledge of you deem to be truth, and so with intention to make us of your Religion: This you see is the practice of other Nations, both Catholics and Protestants to admit and to lerate among them such as profess a different belief from theirs: It is so you know in France, Spain, Germany, Swevia, Polonia, Muscovia, Turkey, Persia, etc. will you only be more scrupulous, than all the Christians of Europe, and more severe to your own Country men, than Turks, and other Heathen Princes?  Prot 
Can I be persuaded that such a connivance at Recusants were not hurtful to our present government, and that the Roman Catholic could be true and loyal subjects to a Protestant King or Common wealth, I would never give my voice to have them used with rigour and severtity, but you Papists are much pemitious to our State. Therefore it is not your Religion, but Treason that we punish.  Cath 
I confess this severity sprung not only from the motives of State, and Policy, but was much exasperated by the rigorous proceed of the Court of Rome, and by the factious combinations, and seditious plots of some few busy bout feux of the Roman faith. Yet I am confident, that our Religion doth not teach us any thing contrary to the fidelity we own to our King and Country, though Protestants, yea even though they persecute us.  Ptot. 
But I can tell you, that the vast ambition of the Court of Rome, their continual practices & endeavours to conserve & augment their greatness, and the Pope's primacy, & pretended authority to create and depose Kings and, Emperors were able to make us jealous of you, but I will only speak of the special power, which you generally give him over Heretical and Schismatical States and Princes, as our State and King is in your opinion.  Cath. 
In this many wise and experienced Catholics do blame the ambition of the Court of Rome as well as you. And as for the Pope's power of creating Kings, there is now no Prince will either expect or desire creation from him.  Prot. 
How ever you see, that our case is different from the case of Catholic Princes, for you say, that the Pope can depose Kings for Heresy, or Schism: (and this is a general tenant amongst you) or for joining in league, and alliance with Protestant States, nay for notorious vices: and some of you add even for insufficiency; and in all these cases the Pope himself must be judge. And what Protestant Prince can be secure, supposing this doctrine be true, and that the Pope's party, either foreign, or domestical, be stronger, than such a Princes? Do you not hold that the Pope can absolve the subjects of such a King from their allegiance? and hath he not done it here in England? Did not his Nuncio in Spain solicit for many years together, to have an Armado sent against this Kingdom. And was not this effected at the instance, and pursuit of your English jesuites, did not Cardinal Allen write, and print a seditious letter by the Pope's command, to stir up the Papists of England to rebellion? Was not Queen Elizabeth excommunicated, and deposed by the Pope? Did not Dolman write a Book by the Pope's order, to disprove Queen Elizab. Title to the crown, and to transfer it upon Portugal? These are your tenants, and your practices must needs follow upon all occasions; which if sometimes they do not, it is not for want of Principles to make them good in your conceit, but for want of power to put them in execution: and therefore we conclude, that both the Pope and you, do but expect a fit opportunity to blow up both our King and Parliament, and set up your Religion.  Cath. 
Those authors, which you seem most to point at, too too much favouring the Pope's authority in temporal affairs, have been deservedly condemned by our Catholic Universities, and their books publicly burned by the order of Catholic Magistrates. And for my part I shall not think him innocent, or a worthy member of this Commonwealth, that will not acknowledge his faithful loyalty, and constant allegiance to our King, and country, though Protestants; independent of all foreign, or papal authority.  Prot. 
Why do you not then at the least take the Oath of allegiance? Though perhaps for the oath of supremacy, there may be some more difficulty in it.  Cath. 
Sir, if you only intent to be secured of our allegiance we shall easily agree, but to make us decide a question disputable in Schools by swearing an universal negative, to what effect I pray? For although in my opinion the Pope cannot depose any absolute Prince, though an Heretic, no not in any case of his own power, or by any authority inherent in his person or dignity; nor do I think, that any indifferent man will say, that the Pope can depose King Charles, that now reigneth, much less that he can absolve his Catholic Subjects, from their allegiance due unto him. Wherefore as wise Statesmen you ought not to make us swear to this, or that universal tenant in points proble, matically disputed by Divines: but to secure yourselves of our particular allegiances and fidelity to our King, and Country, which you may justly exact of us, and we as justly perform. And for the Oath of Supremacy 'tis a mere folly to imagine, that any secular, or Laymen can be supreme of the Church: None of yourselves believe it, nor any Christian Religion, or sect did ever before Henry 8. Profess such a tenant, and Master Calvin in his relation, de Valentiniano, Theodosio, and Saint Ambrosio, strongly opposing this fond assection calls them, who first gave this title to Henry 8. Homines inconsiderati and concludes, erunt enim Blaspemi, cùm vocarent ipsum, summum Ecctesiae caput sub Christo.  Prot. 
I could wish all the papists of England were of your opinion in the point of disposition, it would then perhaps be better for them: but the contrary doctrine is more general amongst you, and thence do follow most dangerous sequels, and sometimes most enormous effects: your Divines tell you, that 'tis lawful for any Catholics Subject, to take arms against his Prince, if he be either an Heretic, or an open persecutor of the Roman Church: nay, that it is no sin to kill him either by private treachery, or public assaults: and of this we have seen in our age divers lamentable examples practised abroad, and some most execrable attempts here at home.  Cath. 
Truly Sir, your Divines, as Luther, Calvin, and others are more forward in this point, than any Catholic I know: and their practices have fare exceeded ours; except perhaps the Powder Treason: but that was Diabolical beyond measure.  Prot. 
Well, you will never wash off the infamy of that powder-plot; you know what proofs were brought in against your jesuites before the Lords Commissioners at that time.  Cath. 
Sir, you know I am neither Priest, nor jesuite: and I think there is never a Catholic Gentleman in England, but doth abhor and detest that wicked conspiracy, as much as any Protestant of you all And sure King james knew well, that this monster was hatched in the breast of some particular Catholics; See his Proclamation November. 7. His words are these: We are by good experience so well persuaded of the loyalty of divers of our Subjects of the Roman religion, that they do as much abhor this detestable conspiracy, as we ourselves.  Prot. 
But I could object more disloyalties, if the time would permit, than you can answer too: and the root thereof spring from your seminary Priests, who by their power, and authority have a main sway over your consciences, and under pretence of Religion can bend your passions to their own ends, and designs.  Cath. 
Sir, I confess some things may be objected in that kind worthy the reflection of a good commonwealths man: but if you be pleased to use your clemency towards your poor Catholic Subjects, and graciosly to conceive at their subsistence: you shall find them ready to conspire with none, nor aim at their own temporal good, but by the advancement of your commonwealth, whereof if once you vouchsafe to admit them as worthy members, the Pope's power shall no way hinder their obedience to his Majesty and you.  Prot. 
I could wish your Priests would do so too, but I see not how we can expect such loyalty at their hands, and therefore you see his Majesty hath proclaimed their banishment. And surely if we had suffered the Pope's agent to continue here, he would have had a care of his Master's interests without doubt.  Cath. 
Sir, how fit it may be to suffer an Agent from the Pope in a State generally Protestant, intermixed with some Catholics, I will not dispute, but for the banishing of our Priests, merely for exercising their function, 'tis in vain; you may hang them at your pleasure, but as long as there remains a Catholic in England there will be Priests, because we believe, that we have an essential dependence, and necessity of Priests. And therefore Priests will venture their lives for the salvation of our Souls: 'Tis, and ever hath been the spirit of our Church and Religion, when all comes to all, you will find that a moderate hand over us, is more Christian, more human, and more politic.  Prot. 
Sir, If you could find a way how we might be secured of the fidelity of your Priests, and that their dependence of Rome, and affection to foreign states, were not obnoctious and liable to our just suspicions, I could be content Recusants lived amongst us, in a civil intelligence, and ordinary friendship. But you see we are so zealous of them, that we have rather permitted strangers & foreign Priests to reside in her Majesty's Chapel, though with no little danger; for 'tis a wonder, that the more zealous sort of our people have not made some tummults, and uproars, seeing the Chapel so frequented, as it was: and you know we cannot be so secured of any stranger's fidelity to our Country, especially if they be Priests, and of a different Religion, and daily frequent both Court and Town, being emboldened in that they are not liable to our Laws; for besides their zeal to Religion, they are naturally inclined to give notice of what they hear, and favour in what they can, their own Country's interests.  Cath. 
Truly sir I doubt not but I can clearly show you, how you may be secured of the loyally of some of our Englsh Priest, and how their dependence of Rome may be of that nature, as shall give you no just occasion of suspicion, and therefore might be admitted upon those terms and conditions, as would banish all suspicion, and prevent all dangers. A● for her Majesty's Chapel, try the Articles of her marriage, agreed upon betwix the two States, ratified under the broad Seal of each Kingdom, & it would be against the law of Nations, and unworthy the fidelity of a Christian Prince to infringe, and violate such a public contract, alas Sir, consider that now whilst you happily are sitting at the stern of the Commonwealth, and piously endeavouring to reform the corruptions, and abuses of our Courts, and government, as also respectively seeking to vindicate the ancient liberty of our Country, shall we only your poor Catholic Subjects be excluded from this general jubilee; take then some moderate course to secure yourselves of our allegiance: and let us all conspire to make one Civil Body, that joined, and united both in your domestic interests, and in your foreign leagues and wars we may (as your Catholic Allies do) engage ourselves as willingly, and as fare as you, Did not King james say well; a too severe persecution makes men desperate? Non coercet, sed provocat violentia. Clemency begets love, love breeds loyalty.  Prot. 
If these your tenants were common to all Papists, I conceive you would find us more indulgent. Therefore me thinks it were worthy your labour to draw such a Proclamation of your fidelity, as you think Papists might lawfully take, and as would perhaps content our Parliament.  Cath. 
Sir, I framed the last Winter p ivately to myself a short petition in the behalf of Catholics, and have since added thereunto such a Protestation as you speak of; here they are peruse them I pray, and if you think fit, make your mederate friends partakers of them, whom if they satisfy, I shall be hearty glad, if nothing will serve but our total ruin, Gods will be done, at least it will be a comfort to have given this testimony of our allegiance, and fidelity; so that if we perish, it must needs be for our religion, since the past crimes of some few, and the disputable opinions of others can never be a legal warrant to condemn the innocent: the next time we meet, you will tell me more, in the interim God be with you.  
FINIS.