THE unreasonableness of the separation. Made apparent, by an examination of Mr. johnsons pretended reasons, published an. 1608. Whereby he laboureth to justify his schism from the Church Assemblies of England. 1. Tim 1.5.6.7. The end of the commandment is charity, out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned. From which some having swa●●ed, have turned a side unto vain Jangling, desiring to be teachers of the Law, understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. AT DORT, Printed by George Waters. 1614 TO THE WELL meaning Reader. THink not evil, if thou meanest well, we intent not to insult over him that is down, or to pursue a man that is flying of himself: but to lend him a hand that knoweth not well which way to take. Mr. johnson in deed, is rather to be pitied, then much opposed: we need but stand still as lookers on: he falleth willingly on his own sword but that his fall may be a rising again, not only to himself, but to others also, both armour-bearers & followers of his: it was judged necessary, to guide them a little while their heads are dizzy, & bring them fairly from of the bog they have stood on. It is not Mr. Johnson that is dealt with alone for change the name only, and put in Mr. Ainsworth, or any such: themselves will not say but the reasons are theirs, and the answer, to them, as well as to him. It may be that they having less acquaintance with logical forms of dispute, will look for large discourse, or heaped quotations out of scripture. But reason will tell them, that many words do rather hide them untie the knot of a syllogism: and much quoting may prove something, but answereth not directly to any thing. Now the writers meaning was, not to gather proofs, but to point at the weakness of such as these men have gathered. Read therefore with understanding, and learn a mean betwixt All and Nothing. THE MAIN CONclusion of Mr. Jonson's Reasons, as it is propounded by himself, is this, That it is not lawful to hear or have any spiritual communion wit the present Ministry of the Church, Assemblies of England. WHich he laboureth to prove. 1. By Reasons (as he fancieth) drawn from Scripture, and other Testimonies. 2. By Arguments collected from the writeinges of them, whom he styleth (in disdain) forward Preachers. And this he performeth as far as the remainders of his logic skill will give him leave, in mood and figure. But the figure for the most part is of his own shapeing, such as never came forth of any logic Schools: yet feing the truth he opposeth receiveth no disadvantage thereby. I can (for my own part) be content that his Syllogisms still retain those forms and figures, that he hath put upon them, and spare the labour of Translating them into nue. And so without any further expense of words, I come to the Examination of the first sort of Reasons. THE FIRST sort OF Reasons from the Scriptures and other Testimonies Examined. The first Reason Examined. All are bound in the worship of God to hear and communicate only with that ministry which Christ hath given, and set in his Church for that work. But the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, is not that which Christ hath given, and set in his Church for the work of his Ministry. Therefore it is not lawful for any in the worship of God to hear or communicate with the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Answer. Not to contend about the Proposition. I deny the Assumption: and affirm, That the present Ministry of our Church Assemblies (how soever it may in some particular parts of the execution, happily be defective in some places) is, (for the substance thereof) that very same Ministry which Christ hath set in his Church for the work of his ministry whether it be the ministry of those which he calleth the forward Preachers, or of those which being qualified according to the true intent of the law, do subscribe, and conform according to the laws of the State. Fr. Ihon. The Ministry which Christ hath given, and set in his Church, is, of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12. But the present Ministry of the Church of England is none of these spoken of Eph. 4.11.12. Therefore it is not the Ministry which Christ hath given and set in his Church. Answer. The present Ministry of the Church of England (1. of the Church Assemblies of England) is the Ministry of Pastors and Teachers. Fr. john. The present Ministry of the Church of England is of Prelates, Priests and Deacons. But neither Prelates, Priests, nor Deacons of that Church, are Pastors or Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12. Therefore it is none of those spoken of Eph. 4.11.12. Answer. I deny both Preposition and Assumption. For 1. Though our Preletes, do sometimes voluntarily and occasionnally perform the same work and service in some of our Church Assemblies, which our ordinary Ministers do, yet their Prelatical or Episcopal office or Ministry is not the proper Ministry of any of our Church Assemblies. But (in the intent of our laws) their proper Ministry consists in overseeing the Ministers and Ministry of our Church Assemblies. 2. Though sometimes our Ministers be called PRIESTS and DEACONS yet the MINISTRY under those names assigned unto them, and which they exercise is not the proper and essential Ministry of either Priests or Deacons; but of Pastors and Teachers: So that they are only in equivocation, and name, or Metaphorically Priests and Deacons: But really Pastors and Teachers, and therefore such Priests and Deacons, may be, and indeed and truth are such Pastors and Teachers as are spoken of Eph. 4.11.12. Fr. john. The Preposition is manifest. 1. The Law of that Church admitteth not any other Ministry, but that of their Prelacy Priesthood and Deaconry, received amongst themselves or from the Papists. 2. Their Constitution is such as all the Ministers of that Church must be Priests or Deacons, and these also either in a Superior degree as the Prelates, Arch. Bishop's Suffragans &c. or in an inferior, as Parsons, Vicars, Stipendaries, chaplains. Answer. 1. It is not necessary that the Ministry of a country or nation should be always such as the law establisheth or admitteth: The Ministry (at least in some places) may be good though the law in general should admit and establish such a one as is bad: as on the contrary side, the ministry may at some times, and in some cases be bad, though the laws admit, & establish never so good; for the Governors of Churches and common wealths who have the dispensation of laws, may in their Christian wisdom, and moderation permit a ministry in sundry respects different from that which the laws require; yea and our own Governors in fact have permitted the ministry of some, who never received ordination, either from Papists or themselves. And he cannot be ignorant but that some by connivency are yet suffered in some points of their ministry to swerver from some observances which the laws require. The Argument therefore will not follow, from the quality of the ministry, except he can prove that our Ministry is in all our Assemblies, in all respects aimswerable to our laws. 2. The priesthood which the law admitteth is not called Sacerdotius but Presbyteratus, and the Priests are not called Sacerdotes or sacrificers but Presbyters, (as sufficiently appears by our orders in Latin.) Therefore the Law doth not intend any true and proper Priesthood but only borroweth the name to express an office of another kind. 3. To be Persons, Vicars, Stipendaries, chaplains, etc. is not to have a divers kind of Priesthood or deaconry, or Ministry (as he foolishly conceiteth:) only variety of Titles is given to the same kind of Ministry, in divers persons, in respect only of a divers kind of maintenance or dependence, for Parsons are such as have all tithes in kind; Vicars such as have only the smaller tithes, the other being impropriated by the Magistrate for other purposes; Stipendaries are such as are maintained by the voluntary Contribution of their Churches or by some such like means. chaplains are such as depend upon great men; The Ministry of all which (If they duly execute the same) is one and the same, even that (and no other for substance) which is proper to true Pastors and Teachers. Fr. john. The Assumption is proved by their 7. Arguments following. The. 1 Arg. The Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. have their offices, callings, administration and maintenance ordained by Christ in his Testament, Eph. 4.8.11.12. and Rom. 12.7.8. Act. 14.23. and 20.17.28. Heb. 5.4. Col. 4.17, 1. Thes. 5, 12.13.14, 1. Pet. 5.1.2.3. Reu. 2. and 3. and 22.18, 1. Cor. 14.1. and 5.4. and 9.14. and 11.23. and 12.28. Gal. 6.6. But the Prelates, Priests & Deacons of the Church of England, have not their offices, Callings, Ministration and Maintenance ordained by Christ in his Testament. Ergo. They are not Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. The Assumption appeareth by their Constitution and practice, in as much as their offices of Prelacy, Priesthood, and Deaconry, their calling, and entrance, according to their Pontifical, Their choice of their people, who stand themselves under Antichrist, and unseperated from the world, and are no true visible Churches of Christ. Their Ministration by their own, and other Popish Canons, Arts Injunctions, and book of Common prayer, their maintenance by tithes, Lordships etc. were never ordained by Christ for his Ministry, but dirived from Antichrist and his apostasy, as hath been proved by us in divers treatises. Answer. 1. The Proposition is not true, except he understand by offices, Callings, and administration, the Substantial, or Essential parts thereof. Otherwise those very Pastors and Teachers there spoken of, may have divers accessary parts of their offices callings and administration not ordained by Christ in the new Testament. Nether is it true, If by maintenance he mean any special kind of maintenance. It is to be granted in general. That Ministers, are to have sufficient maintenance, and the texts alleged for that proves no more, and therefore that which they prove, is nothing to the purpose; As little to the purpose are the other Texts, for it will not follow from any force in them, but that there may be sundry accidents cleaving as parts to the offices, calling, and maintenance of true Pastors, and Teachers, which Christ never ordained. 2. Concerning the Assumption. 1. whether Prelates have their office, calling &c. ordained by Christ is besides the present question. Except M. johnson can prove that they are ordinary Ministers of our Church Assemblies; which I am sure he cannot. 2 So many of our Ministers (who in the book of ordination are called Priests and Deacons) as in all points concerning the substance of their Ministry, are qualified according to the intent of the laws, have their offices, callings, administration and maintenance for the substance thereof, ordained by Christ: And yet I deny not, but there may be some accidental defects, or superfluities in and a bout them all; yet such as do or cannot be proved to destroy the nature and substance of any of them. 3. All that is brought to prove the Assumption is false, and as much if not more controversal than the Assumption itself. For 1. he can never prove, that either the practice of all our Ministers, is in all things according to that Constitution, or their constitution according to their practice, or either of them answerable to the strict terms of the law in all points. 2. He can never prove, that either in their constitution, or practice, or by the law they are in proper speech, either Priests or Deacons; only he presumes them to be such, because through some liberty of speech used in the laws, they are termed such. Though it should be granted that our people stand under, some kind of observances, and offices which in their own nature, and first original, are in some kind Antichristian; Yet they are of such a nature, that diverse worthy Martyrs of jesus Christ, that have with stood Antichrist unto blood, have stood under as much as we. And therefore such a manner of standing under Antichrist, cannot be said to overthrow though it may somewhat stain the Ministry of Christ. But howsoever, he herein shamefully begs the question, in the naked affirming, without any proof, That all in this kingdom are under Antichrist. 4. Though (for avoiding further controversy) that should be granted him, that some parts of our ministration by the Canons, etc. was never ordained by Christ. Yet at the least the main principal, and Essential parts thereof performed according to the Canons and book a foresaid, are ordained by Christ; yea by M. johnson himself. Nether hath he proved or ever can prove, That that part of our ministration, by our Canons, and book a foresaid, which Christ hath not ordained (If any such be) is of that nature and quality, that it necessarily destroyeth or maketh a nullity of the other parts of their Ministry, which use them. 5. Though Tithes and Lordships and manners in particulars, be not ordained by Christ for the maintenance of Ministers, yet they are as much ordained as any other particular, or special kind of maintenance, It is the will of Christ that the Ministers of the Gospel should live of the Gospel. i. should be manietanied for their Ministry sake by them to whom they preach the Gospel. But in what particular manner that maintenance should be raised, he hath no where defined and therefore left it to the discretion of Christian Magistrates or Churches. 6. Whereas for the proofs of these main points, he referreth us to the general Titles of certain Treatises formerly published, he might as well send us (as they say) to seek a needle in a bottle of hay, and why doth he not in all other points of this book, as well as in the is, send us to the said Treatises? seeing he saith nothing throughout this in effect, that he hath not all ready said in some one or other of his former books. Fr. joh. pag. 8. The Ministry of Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. The 2. Arg. is the ordinary and perpetual Ministry given by Christ to his Church, and such as the Princes of the Earth neither may nor ever shall be able to abolish, seeing Christ hath appointed it to continue to the end of the world. But the Prelacy priesthood, and Deaconrye of the Church of England is not the ordinarije and perpetual Ministry given by Christ to his Church, but such as the Princes of the Earth may and aught to abolish out of their Dominions. Rev. 17, 16 1. Tim. 2.2. Rom. 13, 4. with 1. Kin. 23.3. deu. 12.2. Psa. 72.1. Therefore the priesthood Prelacy and deaconrye of the Church of England is not the Ministry of Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. Answer. Idenye the Assumption. Understanding by Prelacy priesthood and deaconrye, The ordinary Ministry of our Church Assemblies against which he propounds to himself to Dispute; And answer. That it is the ordinary and perpetual Ministry, given by Christ to his Church, and such as the Princes of the Earth are bound by God's Laws to maintain and protect by their Authority; And if their be any corruption in and about the same, which they ought to abolish that yet they are accidentiall and personal; and not so Essential as that they do Destroy the Ministry. The places of Scripture annexed to the Assumption for the proof thereof, are all abused and profaned for not on of them doth any way so much as colourably prove either of the Clauses in the Assumption, but only they prove in general, That the Idolatry and idolatrous Ministry of Antichrist is to be abolished: So that the man in his simplicity, takes it as granted; That our Ministry is such an idolatrous Ministry; which is the main matter in Controversy, and in effect the general question of his whole book. Fr. john. pag. 9 The Office of Pastors and Teachers ordained by Christ in his Testament, The. 3. Arg. are such as did or could stand, with the offices of the apostles, Prophets and Evangelists. But the offices of the Prelates, Priests or deacons of the Church of England, are not such as did, or could stand, with or under the offices of Apostles, Prophets and Evangelists: which if any deny, let him show the Contrary, by the Scriptures; Light hath no fellowship with darkness; nor Christ with Antichrist. And suppose the Apostles were a live in their Persons, and were in England, It were worth the knowing, whether they and the ordinances given by them, should give place to the Prelates, and their Canons, and whether they should be suffered to preach, etc. without subscribing, and conforming. Their Canons urge all upon pain of Excommunication ipso facto. Therefore they are not the Pastors, and Teachers ordained by Christ in his nue Testament. Answer. 1. What a shameless man is this to affirm, That our Ministry neither did nor could stand with the offices of the Apostles etc. and for proof thereof bid us, If we deny it show the contrary by Scriptures. Doth not the burden of proving by the very law of Common Reason lie upon the accuser? If I should in like manner reproach his Ministry, & say it is a Ministry that standeth upon Sorcery, witch croft and Conjuration and for proof thereof bid him, If he deny it show the contrary by Scripture, were I not worthy at least to be laughed out of the Schools. This is a sufficient justification of our Ministry; that such Malitions adversaries thereof, who would seem so expert in the Scriptures; are no better able by Scripture to prove their unchristian accusation. 2. It is true, that light hath no fellowship with darkness, nor Christ with Antichrist. Yet there is no light in men in this life, but it is mingled with some darkness; and the best Christians that are, or ever have been since the Apostles times, may be infected with some points of Antichristianisme. Many of the late Martyrs since the revealing of Antichrist, were worthy lights, and renowned Christians, and yet the light of many of them, was mingled with more darkness, and their Christianity with more Antichristianisme, then can be found in our Ministry. 3. Our Bishops have as good reason, to make the like supposition against him, and as much worthy the inquiry that were, if the Apostles, etc. were a live now in their own Persons where he liveth, and should profess the Church Assemblies in England to be true Churches, and their Ministry in general to be a lawful Ministry, and their worship for substance to be a true worship, whether M. johnson and his Church would suffer them to be so much as private members, of their Society, much more to preach, etc. 4. Though our Bishops should herein be so impious as to advance in such a manner, their own Authority, and ordinances above the Apostles. Yet what is that to prove that the Preesthoode and Deaconry of the Ministers of our Church Assemblies, (who many of them in these points are mere patients, and esteem of these things as burdens) cannot stand with the offices of Apostles, etc. doth M. johnson think that none of our Ministers in England would suffer the Apostles to preach in their Cures, without wearing a Surplice, If they might have their own wills, or should this any whit derogate from their Ministry, that the Bishops therein would not suffer them to have their will. 5. It is besides the present question, and a needless thing to spend time in justifying the Canons herein: If the Bishops therein have gone too far, it may seem to be the fault of the Parsons, rather than of the Prelacy itself, and therefore to make and urge such Canons, and Traditions as are afore said doth not prove, but that for all that, the Prelacy & in of itself, might stand well enough with the offices of the Apostles etc. for those offices may of themselves, (If their be no other impediment) stand well one with an other, which in the actions thereof do not (but by accident only) one overthrow or oppugn the other. Fr. john. pag. 9.10. The offices of true Pastors, The 4. Arg. and Teachers are by the ordinance of Christ set in the Church, and employed in the Ministry of the word, Sacraments & Church Government, so as they may not, with their Ecclesiastical functions receive Cyvill offices, and callings, nor take upon them princely Titles and dignities. Eph. 4.11, 1. Pet. 5.1. Rom. 12.2.4. Luk. 12.14. and 22.25. 1. Cor. 12.5.8. 1. Tim. 4.13.15.16. 2. Tim. 2.4. But the offices of Prelates, Priests, and Deacons of the Church of England, are not so, but by their own Constitution we set in the Church, and employed in the Ministry so as they may also receive Cyvill offices and Callings, as to be justices of Peace, etc. Therefore they are not true Pastors and Teachers. Answer. There are 4. Terms in this Syllogism, The gross Sophisterye whereof may appear by the Explanation thereof in others words. True Pastors & Teachers may not (viz. by God's law) take upon them Cyvill offices. The Ministers of England may (viz. by Man's law) take upon them Cyvill offices. Therefore they are not true Pastors and Teachers. This is the effect of his Argument, & who is so blind, but he may see the fallacy thereof. And it is as though we should reason in the like manner against their own Ministry, thus, True Pastors & Teachers may not be Drunkards, Anabaptists, Familists. The Ministers of the Separation at Amsterdam may be Drunkards, Anabaptists, Familists. Therefore they are not true Pastors and Teachers. This Assumption is as true as the former, for the same kind of Authority that permits our Ministers to be Cyvill Magistrates, doth permit them to be Drunkards etc. The government under which they live, permitteth the one to more, than our state doth the other. But I answer more particularly. 1. That by the same law, that our Ministers may take upon them Cyvill Magistracy; Any true Pastors, and Teachers, may take upon them, the same Authority, and by the same law that true Pastors and Teachers, may not take Cyvill Authority upon them our Ministers may not take the same upon them. 2. All our Ministers may not (no by the laws of our State) take upon them Cyvill Authority; But such only as are called specially thereto, by the favours, & grace of the Cyvill Magistrate, not as they are Prelates, Priests or Deacons, or by virtue of those functions; but in respect of other qualifications. Nether are the forced by any law to adjoin any such Authority to their Ministry, but permitted only. But what if by the laws of men, Ministers might be Murderers, Adulterers, Thiefs, etc. should these laws change the nature of their Ministry? what? of their Ministry that deny unto themselves that licence; would it not rather the more justify their Ministry; when in Conscience of God's law, they shall for bear that which flesh, and blood and humane laws would permit unto them. 3. Suppose not only that it is unlawful for any true Pastors, and Teachers, to be Cyvill Magistrates, but that also by our laws, all our Ministers, were forced thereunto, and that by virtue of their Ministry, will it thence follow, that for this cause, they are not true Pastors and Teachers; May not true Pastors and Teachers, in their weacknesse, ignorance, and infirmities (the laws of the State requiring the same) admit of some kind of office or Authority, for bidden them; but they must needs there upon cease to be true Pastors, & Teachers? doth the admitting of every unlawful thing change the nature of the Ministry, and make it either no Ministry, or a Ministry of an other kind. Fr. john. The Ministry of Christian Pastors, and Teachers, The. 5. Arg. standeth by the word, and ordinance of Christ, so as all Churches under Heaven, are bound to receive, and submit thereunto. But the Prelacy, priesthood and Deaconry of the Ghurch of England staundeth only by the Authority and Law of man, so as other Churches else where, neither are nor need to be subject thereunto; which even themselves of all sorts have acknowledged; for which see Whitgifts defence in the Preface. The Answer to the Abstraucte pag. 58. The Admonition to the Parliament; The defence of the Godly Ministers the demonstration. Therefore it is not the Ministry of Christian Pastors and Teachers. Answer. I deny the Assumption. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies of England, whether of Prelates, Priests or Deacons, or by what other names soever they be called, for the substance thereof, standeth by the word, and ordinance of Christ, and not only by the Authority and law of man: And all other true Churches, are and aught to be subject, to the same kind of Ministry, and to no other, that shall in any Essential point of Ministry differ from ours. If any Particular Parsons amongst us, have been so unadvised to grant the Assumption, let them answer for themselves; He hath no more reason to bind us to their opinions, than we to bind him unto whatsoever his predecessors Brown, barrow, and Greenwood have held before him. Concerning some of the particulars, Doctor whitgift's words are these, The substance, and nature of Government must indeed by taken out of the word of God, and consisteth in these parts. That the word be truly taught, the Sacraments rightly administered, virtue furthered, vice repressed, and the Church kept in quietness and order: The offices of the Church, whereby this Government is wrought be not namely, and particularly expressed in the Scripture, but in some points left to the discretion, and liberty of the Church, to be disposed according to the State of times, Places, and persons. The Author of the Answer to the Abstract in the place alleged saith, That it cannot be proved that any set and exact particular form of discipline is recommended unto us in the word of God. Now are either of these to affirm, That the Ministry of our Church Assemblies staundeth only by the laws and Authority of Man? Hath M. johnson any shame left in his face that thus shamefully abuseth the names of learned, and reverent men, so directly contrary to their words and meaning. Is there not cause to suspect that the other Authors, are in like manner abused, and that for the better hiding of his fraud, he forbeareth to quote any particular places; Being therefore convinced of depravation, in the places particularly quoted, we may presume, that if the other places had been more pertinent, he would have given us some particular directions also for the finding of them; And the rather, for that he cannot be ignorant, that those whom specially he fighteth against in these Arguments, do rely upon the judgement of the Authors following, more than of the former. Fr. john. The offices of Pastors, The 6. Arg. and Teachers, which Christ hath appointed, are such as they which have them must be members of a true visible Church, and bound to one particular Congregation for the Ministry and Government thereof. But the Offices of the Prelates, Priests, and Deacons of the Church of England, are such as they which have them, need not be, neither in their State can be members of a true visible Church, but of a falls, neither are bound to one particular Congregation for the Ministry and Government thereof, but the Prelates are our whoele Provinces, and Dioceses & other inferior Priests, may have in that State plurality of benefices and Ecclesiall Cures etc. which none can deny. Therefore they are not the Pastors & Teachers that Christ hath appointed. Answer. Though some parts of the Proposition be disputable; Yet because other besides the Separation do hold the whole for truth. I will leave it in medio. The Assumption is false; especially if it be understood (as it ought to be) of the offices of such Prelates, Priests, and Deacons as are Ministers of our Church Assemblies. For most of those which have such offices are, and are bound to be members of true visible Churches; And cannot in their Estate (they being in all points answerable to the laws) be members of a false Church; They are all (such excepted as have special dispensations) bound to one particular Congregation, and may not by law, have more Cures than one; but admitting of a second, the first is void; Yea the Prelates themselves; though in regard of their Prelatical office, they are Governors of whole Provinces, & dioceses, yet it is possible for them (not withstanding) to be members (in their Estate) of a true visible Church, and be bound (as are the Prelates of Scotland) to one particular congregation for the special Ministry and Government thereof. And though the other Ministers may have in that estate plurality of benefices, and Cures, yet it doth not follow, that therefore they are such, as in their estate cannot be members of a true visible Church; except they have them indeed, yea & though they should be pluralists indeed, yet (for aught he hath proved to the contrary) they may be members of true visible Churches, and may each be bound to one particular Congregation, for the Ministry and Government thereof. But what man, except he were half frantic, would reason, thus, Our Ministers may be Pluralists therefore they neither are nor can be true Pastors and Teachers; Is not this rather one of the honours than blemishes of our Ministers; That they may be pluralists, and yet are not. If by our laws their own Assemblies were established If by the same laws their Pastors and Teachers, might be non residents or pluralists, or worse, would they think hemselus ever the worse for this? would they not rather think themselves the better that they are not so bad, as by man's law they might be. Fr. john. The Offices Condition and Government of Pastors and Teachers, The 7. Arg. are such as no way impair the Authority and Supremacy of the Syvill Magistrate. But the offices, Condition and Government of Prelates, Priests & Deacons, are such as do many ways impair the Authority Supremacy and dignity of Kings, and all other Magistrates both in Civil, and Ecclesiastical Causes. For the Prelates will have their presence, voice, and Authority, to be at Parliaments, for enacting of laws and Statutes for the Common wealth. They are Rulers of whole Provinces, and dioceses in the Ecclesiastical causes thereof. In Civil State, and dignity, some of them are above all, and all of them, above some of the Nobles, justices, and other Magistrates of the Land. Themselves their Courts and officers handle and determine sundry Civil Causes, and affairs, appertaining to the Magistracy; They inflict Civil Mults, and punishments; In their forbidden times they give licence to Mary. The beneficed Priests swear Canonical obedience to the Prelates. All the Priests and Deacons are exempt from the Magistrates jurisdiction in divers things appertaining unto them, and answerable only or chiefly to the Prelates and their officers. Therefore they are not the only Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. Answer. The Assumption is false, neither do the instances prove the same. 1. The Prelates claim their voices in Parliament not as divine ordinances appartaining to their Prelateship, but as an honour annexed to the same by the Civil Magistrate. 2. Their Authority in Causes Ecclesiastical over Provinces, etc. is either such as the Civil Magistrate himself may execute, and administer in his own person if he please; or such as is not for them, as they are Magistrates, to execute. The first sort they administer only, by virtue of the Magistrates own Commission, and therein they cannot impair either his dignity, or Supremacy much less in the other part of their Authority, which belongeth not to the Magistrates themselves to execute especially when they use it not neither, without their consent, licence, and approbation. 3. That all are above some, and some above all of the Nobles, and justices, etc. is a free and voluntary honour granted unto them by the Civil Magistrate, and held in tenure from him, and not claimed (as I think) as belonging to their Episcopal function, by divine right. 4. Their Courts determine no other Civil causes, than the Civil Magistrate, and his laws do permit, or if they do the fault is in the Parsons, and not in the Prelatship; further they inflict Civil punishments, give licences, exact Oaths, etc. by Authority from the Magistrate whose subsistutes therein they are. And therefore the Prelates neither in these, nor in any of the former instances can be said to impair the dignity, Authority, or Supremacy of the Civil Magistrate, when herein they do all things, in and by the protection of his Authority, much less can other inferior Ministers who have no dealing in the aforesaid matters. Lastly if all our Ministers be exempt from the Magistrates jurisdiction, in some things appertaining unto them (but wherein I know not) this very exemption itself, is an act of the Magistrates jurisdiction & depends, only upon his pleasure! & how can it them, any ways impair the same. & hitherto he hath dealt by Syllogisms such as they are, now for a conclusion of this first Argument, he shoots at rovers as followeth. Fr. john. To this end divers other reasons might be alleged, for example If they say that Arch Bishops have the Pastors, than they have but two. If Lord Bishops, then but 26. and what office then have the Arch Bishops amongst them. If the other Priests, than what office have the Arch Bishops: and Bishops seeing God hath ordained no higher ordinary Ecclesiastical office, as some of themselves acknowledge. If they say the deacons have the Pastor's office, the same absurdity followeth as in the former besides that the works of the deacons office are opposed to the work of the Ministry. Act. 6.2. with. Eph. 4.11. Rom. 12.8. If they should say they have the Teacher's office, it would be known, which of their officers have it amongst them, and to whom they are adjoined for the work of Ministry, as Teachers are to Pastors, and what office the rest have whom the account not to have the Teacher's office & whether the Teacher spoken of Eph. 4.11. must first be deacons; and then Priests and permit obeydeince to the Prelates; and that also is to their ordinaires, and be silenced and deposed at thtir pleasure. Answer. Here he thinks he hath knit such Guardian knots as cannot be untied, without a sword or a bill; but the Simplicity of the man here in is to be laughed at, for 1. though some should say, that either our Arch Bishops: or Bishops have the Pastor's office, yet there in they do not exclude the other Ministers, from that which is the substance, and effect of that office, though they should from the name; No nor from the name neither, but should therein only make degrees of pastors, viz. of Arch Bishops. over Bishops and their Dioceses of Bishops over Ministers and their Churches, and of Ministers over their own Congregations; Leaving unto them (not with standing the Superiority of the other Pastors) that main and Substantial office of the Pastor which is enough to define and denominate a Pastor. And therefore they may make such Pastors, as are over whole Provinces but two, & such as are over whole dioceses but, 26. and yet hold also without any absurdity, that their are also as many Pastor's besides, as there are Ministers of a particular Congregation. And though it should be granted that herein they were deceived in making Provincial and diocesme Pastors; yet the sorteing of unproper Pastors; with true or the subjecting of true Pastors unto other sorts of Pastors, doth not necessarily make the true Pastors falls, so long as under them they perform, the name, and substantial duties of true Pastors; which all the Ministers of our Church Assemblies do, or by the laws ought to do. 2. If any hold that the Ministers of particular Congregations, only are Pastors, them they may without any absurdity hold that they Arch Bishops, and Bishops, are general Commissioners under the King to see that the Pastors do their duties, and in that regard, may also Metaphorically, and in another sense be called Pastors, as Princes themselves are so called, in good and approved Authors; and what absurdity can follow upon this? Or what if they which hold the Ministers of particular Congregations to be Pastors, could not tell what to make of the office of Arch Bishops and Bishops, what's that to the purpose? are not our Ministers, and Teachers therefore Pastors, because they which shall hold them to be so, cannot tell what to make of the Calling of Arch Bishops and Bishops? 3. Though this should be yielded unto him that all Pastors are equal, and that the Pastors of particular Congregations, are the highest ordinary Ecclesiastical officers; yet should this make nothing to the confirming of his conceit, That our Ministers are not therefore true Pastors and Teachers, because then Arch Bishops and Bishops should be excluded; for this doth not exclude them from being Commissioners, and Visitors in causes ecclesiastical under the King over the Pastors, and Churches, of such and such Provinces and Dioceses, which is to give them their principal honour, & due. 4. Concerning the Teacher's office (not to contend needlessly, with him about the nature and quality thereof but to suppose a Teacher in that sense which he meaneth) This may reasonably be held; That some of our Ministers, (whether Priests or Deacons so called, or whether Parsons, Vicars, Curates or Stipendaries) are Pastors and some Teachers, That so many of them as have and use the gift, not only of doctrine and instruction, but of Exhortation, are Pastors, That those which wanting the power of Exhortation, and yet have & use the gift of instruction and doctrine are such Teachers, as he meaneth. And therefore herein also if it should be yielded unto him, That it were fit that every Congregation should have both these offices; and that the Teacher should be the Pastor's Assistant, yet it doth not follow, but that in want of sufficient men, for both these offices in every Congregation, some may enjoy one, and some an other. For if the Churches of their own way, and constitution, may be without both Pastors & Teachers, and that for a long time, till men may be chosen unto that office? Why may not a Church much more in the like necessity retain a Pastor without a Teacher, or a Teacher without a Pastor, Can he prove by any colour out of God's word, That one cannot be called unto, or execute the office of a Pastor until he have a Teacher to assist him, or that he cannot execute the office of a Doctor, except he do it as an actual assistant of some Pastor? If not, then is this a most frivolous demand, when he asks to whom our Teachers are adjoined for the work of their Ministry: neither do the places he quoteth viz. Eph. 4.11. Rom. 12.7. prove any such matter. 5. As idle and impertinent is that demand which followeth whether the Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. must first be Deacons, & then Priests, & promise obedience to Prelates, & be silenced and deposed at their pleasures. For what if no such matters be required of Teachers by Paul, either in that or any other place, doth it thereupon follow, that their submission to such things, makes them no Teachers! may not Magistrates, & others also require, some things of Teachers, not required by the Apostles, but they must needs thereupon, become no Teachers? But what repugnancy is their in these matters, to the office of a Teacher? To be a Deacon in the intent of our laws what is it, but (as himself out of our book of ordination hath in effect published it) To read the scriptures, Pag. 31. & to pray in the Church to catechize the jonger sort, to baptise & to preach if the Bishop shall think him sit. what is it to be a Priest, or Presbyter in our law? hath not himself also taught us? viz. Pag. 32. To have authority to Preach the word, and to Minister the holy Sacraments in the Congregation, where he shallbe appointed, what obedience do they (promise to Prelates in the intent of the law? but only in things that they shall judge honest, and lawful, and not repugnant to the word of God; what is it to be silenced and deposed, but to forbear to Minister publiquly (as themselves do also forbear) upon the Magistrates pleasure: for the Bishop's pleasure so far as they proceed according to the laws, is the Magistrates pleasure, otherwise it is but a personal fault. And wherein Imarvaile do any of these acts, so oppugn the office of a Teacher, that they cannot stand together! where doth Paul forbid any of these acts unto the Teacher? or if he should, doth every Act forbidden to a Teacher, make him no Teahcer? Fr. john. pag. 14. Whereas some allege that the people were to hear the Scribs and Pharesees sitting in Moses Chair it is to be noted, that they were levites and Priests and therefore had the true offices appointed by Moses. This therefore is nothing for a falls Ministry, such as theirs is proved to be. further to be a Pharefye was not to have a new kind of Ministry, but to be of a special Sect amongst the jews that pretended more strict observances of the law, and might be of any Tribe. Lastly though the were corrupt, yet did the hold, that very true Minister must be from heaven: and this have the forward Preachers acknowledged, as T. C. pag. 83. Answer. Here absurdly, and Childishly he goeth about to answer such an objection, as no body ever made against any thing contained in the former Argument. This Argument only is used in general to show, that some corruptions in Ministers and Churches are not of that nature, that men should therefore separate from all Spiritual Communion with them, And where he saith, that this is nothing for any falls Ministry never ordained of the Lord, such as ours is proved to be: No man ever brought it to prove any such matter; But only to prove that such corruptions as are in our Ministry, ought no more to hinder, communion with our Ministers, than the corruptions in the Ministry of the Scribes and Pharesees, did hinder the communion, with their Ministry, and that the corruptions in our Ministry do no more argue our Ministers to be false Ministers, than their corruptions, did argue them to be false Ministers: Nether hath he brought any Argument to prove our Ministers falls Ministers, but either such corruptions, as the Scribes and Pharesees were guilty of, in as high if not a higher degree, or in respect of their names, in that they are called Priests and Deacons; So that if the Scribes & Pharesees were true Ministers, not with standing their names, and other corruptions, our Ministers cannot be falls, in regard of the like names and corruptions: furthermore if to be expounders of the Law, be sufficient to argue their Ministry to be a true Ministry, notwithstanding their names of Scribes and Pharesees, with other vile & gross corruptions; why may not the Preaching of the word, and administration of the Sacraments be sufficient to argue, our Ministers to be true Pastors, and Teachers, notwithstanding that in the mouth of the law, they are sometimes called Priests and Deacons. For otherwise in the mouths of men; even of the Bishops themselves they are not so called; except sometimes by Metaphorical allusions to the levitical priesthood; But they are usually so called only by profane Atheists, or ignorant people, with whom in this point, the Separation goeth hand in hand. 2. To be a Pharisee was not only (as he minceth the matter) to be of a special Sect amongst the jews, that pretended more strict observances of the law than others. But also (which as it is to be feared with a fraudulent mind he concealeth) to join meinie humane Traditions, and will-worships to the worship and service of God (whereby they are said by Christ himself, in vain to worship God, and to make the commandments of God of none effect;) making more account of; and urging with more severity the said Traditions, than Gods own laws; And in like manner, we affirm, That to be a Priest and Deacon, in the intent of our law (whatsoever the words may ring to the contrary in some men's ears) is (at the worst) to be such a kind of pastor and Teacher, as is content, over and besides those duties of the Ministry which Christ requires of them to yield conformity also to humane Traditions, of no worse nature and quality in themselves, than those which the Pharisees used in or about God's service, wherein to suppose that they sin, yet cannot this their sin be so repugnant to the Ministry of Christ as that of the Scribes and Pharisees, which they are forced to acknowledge to be a true Ministry, In that they were the urgers of Traditions, whereas our Ministers (for the most part) only yield unto them, either in obedience and love; or fear of the Magistrate that commands them. Lastly whereas he argues them true Ministers by this, that though they were very corrupt, yet the did still hold that every Ministry must be from Heaven, and not of men. It deserves rather to be laughed at, then answered. For may not yea do the falsest Ministry that are or ever have been, hold so much, at least in such a sense and meaning as the Pharisees might hold it. And can he name any amongst us, that holds not as much? THE SECOND REASON. EXAMINED. Fr. Ihon. NOne may hear or have any Spiritually communion with the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Ergo, None may hear have any Spiritual communion with the same. Answer. I grant the Proposition; taking the words in the plain and common sense viz. understanding by the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The administration and dispensation of the things of Antichrist; otherwise to communicate spiritually with any Ministers what soever only in the holy things of Christ, is not to communicate with the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy, no though the Ministers be Ministers thereof. Nether do the 5. Reason's following whereby he needlessly proves his preposition, prove it unlawful to hear or have any spiritual communion with the Ministers of Antichrist, then, when they Minister the things of Christ. For the proof of the Assumption he makes a terrible muster if no less than 7. Arguments. But let us pull up our Spirets, and see what is in them, one by one. Fr. john. The Ministry of Deacons and Priests ordained by the Prelates thereunto is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The 1. Arg. The Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, is such a Ministry. Ergo, It is of Antichrists Apostasy. Answer. He brought this very Argument to prove the first Reason and now he brings it again for a proof of his second Reason: And is not this a learned kind of reasoning? when he will make a show of multitudes of Reasons against us, and yet all of them come to one issue and lie upon one ground, and depend upon one proof; so that the overthrow of one, is the overthrow of all: But his childish vanity herein we shall better perceive in that which followeth. Both the Proposition and Assumption are false; For 1. It is not necessary, that the Ministry of Priests, and Deacons, though ordained by Antichrist himself, should be the Ministry of his Apostasy; But not withstanding his ordination, their Ministry may be the Ministry of jesus Christ; As was the Ministry of Luther, Husse, Wickliff and others. 2. The Ministry of such manner of Priests and Deacons, as the Prelates ordain, (or by the laws ought to ordain) is the true Ministry of jesus Christ, and for the substance thereof, directly contrary to the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. 3. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies, is not (as I have showed before) the Ministry of Priests and Deacons properly so taken, but of Pastors and Teachers. The Proposition he proveth as followeth by two Arguments. Fr. john. The Ministry of Deacons and Priests which accounts itself to be Christ's, and yet was not set by Christ in his Church, for the work of his Ministry, is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Such is the Ministry of Deacons and Priests, ordained by the Prelates thereunto. Ergo, It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Answer. This Argument is it which he bringeth for the first Reason of all; and here he brings it to prove that which before was brought to prove it. For he proves, That our Ministry is not set by Christ in his Church, by this because it is the Ministry of Priests and Deacons, and so by consequent of Antichrists Apostasy. Here he proves, That the Ministry of Priests and Deacons is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy, Because it is a Ministry, that was not set by Christ in his Church; This doth he most grossly run round in a circle, as if I should prove that his Ministry is unlawful, because he is a Schismatic, and that he is a Schismatic, because his Ministry is unlawful. The 2. Reason whereby he proves his Proposition followeth. Fr. john. 2. If the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices, and Government as be special parts of Antichrists Apostasy, than the Ministry ordained by them thereunto must needs be the Ministry of that Apostasy. But the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices and government, as be special parts of Antichrists Apostasy. Therefore the Ministry ordained by them is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The consequent is manifest, because the fruit must needs be as the tree is. Mat. 7.16. and who can bring a clean thing out of filthiness. job 14.4. The Assumption is proved. 1. Whosoever (besides Christ) have such offices and Government, whereby the claim to be spiritual Lords, the have the offices, and Government which are special parts of Antichrists Apostasy, and are indeed very Antichrists themselves. But such are the Prelates of the Church of England. Therefore the have such offices and governments, as are special purts of Antichrists Apostasy. The Proposition is proved by those places of Scripture which teach that there is but one spiritual Lord, the Lord jesus. The Assumption is proved by the laws, and Statutes of the land, wherein they are called Lords Spiritual, and in their Canons they take upon them to prescribe their own ordinances to the Ghurch for the worship of God, and bind the spiret and conscience to the acknowledgement, and approbation thereof, and to give the holy Ghost. 2. The offices and Government of such Bishops, as are over Diocesan, and Provincial Churches, and exercise Ecclesiastical jurisdiction over all the Ministers and people therein, are special parts of Antichrists Apostasy. But such are the Prelates of the Church of England. Ergo, They have such offices and government as be specially parts of Antichrists Apostasy. Answer. 1. I deny the consequent of the Proposition of the 1. syllogism. The officers & governors of Antichrists Apostasy, may & have ordained some things that are Christian, Nether doth the saying of Christ or job prove the consequent; for though it should be granted unto him, that the governors of Antichrists Apostasy have ordained this Ministry; yet doth it not follow that it is therefore a proper & mere fruit of Antichrist, but may be an dental effect, as are many other things which he ordaineth agreeable to Christ's own ordinances, so that he must prove that our Ministry ordained by the Pope or Bishops, doth as properly flow from the nature of their office and government, as figs from a fig tree, or grapes from a vine, or filthy water from a foul fountain; The contrary whereof is in this case most evident. For leave the bare names and titles, and consider our Ministry in all the essential parts, and offices thereof, and it is a possible, either for a Presbythery, or for any particular Church, such in constitution as their own, to ordain the like Ministry in all points and respects, with all the defects and faults thereof. 2. Concerning the first proof of the Assumption, The Proposition may be denied; It being one thing to be, and another to make claine to be, for every one is not that which he claimeth to be, The Instances alleged to prove the Assumption, either are false or prove it not. The laws may give their titles, to men which they do not claim. Neither do either their Canons or practice show that they prescribe their own ordinances for worship or propound to bind men's consciences to the acknowledgement of any such matter. The profess the contrary, and urge their own ordinances only under the name of things indifferent, Though therefore in error of judgement, they may, and happily do command such ordinances of their own, as are divine worship, and in such a manner as it bindeth conscience (which M. johnsons own Church in many cases may do, except they think themselves privileged from error) yet they protesting against any such power and authority, they cannot be said therein to arrogate the office of Spiritual Lords, in that sense at least, in which Christ is said to be the only Spiritual Lord. And though in their ordination of Ministers, they use as a ceremonial speech to say, Receive the holy Ghost; and therein peradventure offer some force unto the Scripture unto which the allude; yet they disclaim all actual power and authority of giving the person or gifts of the holy Ghost unto men. It shall be needless in this controversy, to spend time in the defence of the calling of Bishops any further than the necessity of the argument requires, Only for the further clearing of the truth in the differences of them of the Separation not only from the Bishops, but from the other sort of Ministers also, which do not approve of their callings, I offer these points unto them to consider of advisedly. 1. Whether the Supreme Magistrate have not power to over see, and Govern all the several Churches with in his dominions, yea whether he be not bound so to do? 2. Whether for his further help and assistance herein he may not make choice of grave learned and reverent men to assist him in the same government. 3. Whether by virtue of his power these persons thus called to assist the Supreme Magistrate, may not lawfully try the gifts of all the several Ministers with in his dominions, and give public approbation of the worthy, & inhibit those which they find unworthy, from the execution of their Ministry, & whether they may not visit the several Ministers and Churches, convent them before them, examine them, how they have behaved themselves in their places, and punish the blame worthy. 4. Whether for the more easy and orderly Government of the said Churches, so far forth as appertaineth to him, he may not divide his kingdom (as ours is) into Provinces assigning over each of them under himself some special Magistrate for learning and experience to oversee, and govern all the particular Churches there, and whether he may not subdevide those Provinces into Dioceses, assigning also to them, other more inferior officers, under him, and his provincial officers, to over see the several Churches with in such, and such a precinct? 5. Whether it do destroy the nature of a Ministerial or a particular true visible Church, that many of them should appertain unto one Provincial or Diocesame government, though in that respect they should be held and reputed, but for one Provincial, or Diocesame Church? 6. Whether Antichrist having usurped the King's Supremacy, and taken into his hands this authority and corrupted the same, hath made it now unlawful for the Magistrate to execute the same in manner and form afore said; or whether the jurisdiction afore said do not directly and properly belong to the Civil Magistrate, and not to Antichrist. But by usurpation; And whether his usurpation of this office can make it a part of his Apostasy in those places where it is restored again to the Supreme Magistrate. 7. Whether the Supreme Magistrate recerving this his right from Antichrist, and together with it happily taking also to himself some thing also that belongs to the Kingdom of Antichrist: & executing the same either in his own person or by others, together with his own lawful right, whether (I say) this do destroy his own lawful right? and whether the subject is ever the less bound to subject themselves unto the same right, either in his own person, or his substitute. Hither to he hath endeavoured to prove the Proposition of the first Argument, whereby he would confirm, the Assumption of his 2. reason, and now he sets upon the proof of the Assumption. Namely, That the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, is the Ministry of Deacons, and Priests ordained by the Prelates there unto. This he saith is proved by the Canon's constitutions & observation of our Church; And this he confirmeth first by a long, tedious and idle rehearsal of the form of ordination of our Ministers, bestowing cost to print, in a manner our whole book of ordination. 2. By certain of the late Canons pressing subscription, conformity, and an acknowledgement of the lawfulness of the calling of Bishops, and of their ordination. 3. By certain sharp speeches of some Martyrs and of some others of our own Nation against the archbishops, Bishohs, & other of the clergy of their times. In the relation of which points he spends some 5 leaves; wherein still he runs in a circle begging one of his arguments to prove an other, So that one of his Arguments are as good as all, and all no better than one; This may suffice for answer. 1. That if all particulars mentioned in the book of ordination should be strictly, and precisely practised (as always they are not) yet there is not one clause in the whole form of ordination by him cited, that doth necessarily argue them, which are so ordained, to be true and proper Priests, and Deacons; But if there were and if also the Ministers ordained, were anointed with oil, if their crowns were shawen, and they had power given to offer the abominable Idol of the Mass, yet this is not sufficient to argue, that their Ministry is the Ministry of Priests, etc. except in their Ministry they should execute the same. If their own Church should ordain one to the Ministry of a Pastor, and should in their ordination require him only to preach the word sincerely, and to administer the Sacraments according to Christ's institution, and yet in his practice and execution, he should do nothing, but sing Mass and Matins, and they should accept of this Ministry, and no other, at his hands; would any that is in his wits, say that this man's Ministry, is the Ministry of a Pastor: because he was in formality of words & ceremonies ordained to that office, how much less can any say that our Ministry is the Ministry of Priests, when they do not only execute any such office, but the clean contrary; and when in their ordination not so much as any part of a Priest's office (properly so taken) is assigned unto them, but only the name; and not so much as their name in their orders written in Latin, which are to interpret the meaning of the English word. 2. Though the Ministers should do all things required, by the canons, and should be every way answerable unto them, And though the Testimonies of our Martyrs and others were yielded to be true, yet must he streive hard, that can from either or both, argue that our Ministers, are indeed Priests, except in a Metaphorical, and borrowed speech. The other Arguments whereby he proveth the main Assumption of the 2. Reason viz. That the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy, follow. Fr. john. The Ministry of the Prelacy professing itself to be Christ's, The 2. Arg. and yet standing in such an estate as it doth not obey jesus Christ in his ordinance of Ministry, worship and government of the Church, as their Prophet, Priest and King, is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Such is the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Ergo, It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Answer. To the Proposition I answer, That not only the Ministry of the Prelates, but of a Presbytery, or any Church whatsoever that stands in such an estate, is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy; And not only the Ministry of the Prelates, but any other Ministry else upon earth, may stand in such an estate, as that it may in divers, and sundry Particulars of (ignorance or infirmity) disobey Christ in his own ordinances of Ministry, worship, and government of the Church, and in that respect, and so far forth be the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy, & yet be also the Ministry of jesus Christ. He proves the Proposition by 19 places of Scripture; to as much purpose, as if by as many Testimonies, he should prove that it is day light at high noon; Except he mean, That that is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy, doth not in every particular obey Christ in his own ordinances of Ministry. But which his 19 proofs have no more force to prove it, then to prove that their is a man in the moon, as any may see that hath nothing else to do, but to examine them. 2. I deny the Assumption; The Ministry of our Church Assemblies, though it be ordained by the Prelates, and be subject unto them, yet it is not their Ministry, but the Ministry of jesus Christ; They preaching his word, & administering his Sacraments; And it doth (if it be answerable to the law:) obey Christ in all the main essential parts of his own ordinance of Ministry, etc. And in all other points (for aught he can prove to the contrary) as far as the Lord hath revailed the truth unto them which exercise the same. But (saith he) the Assumption is evident by that which hath been said in the 1. Reason and their Constitution itself shows it, in that they are so far from obeying Christ in his ordinances of Ministry etc. as that they execute the Ministry and government of an other Arch Bisschop, L. Bishop then Christ of an Archdeacon, Parson, Vicar, etc. as also in their reading; prayers out of a book, and observing other humane inventions, and in their Church Government according to Canons, Courts, etc. which were never appointed by Christ. To omit that here again, he begs his first reason to prove his second, If the Assumntion have no better evidence, the evidence is false, as I have made it evident, in the Answer to the first reason? Nether hath he there or else where (in any of those other of their writings which he sends us unto pag. 40.) proved that our Ministers do not obey Christ, in his ordinance of Ministry, worship, and Government, yea though it should be granted that they execute the Ministry, and Government of other Arch Bishops, and L. Bishops besides Christ. And though they should be Arch Deacons, Parsons, Vicars, reading stinted prayers, etc. For all this may be done yea and they may sin some way in doing all this, and yet they may obey Christ in all the main essential and substantial points of his Ministry worship and Government. Fr. john. The Ministry of Christians which is opposed against and exalted above the holy things, Ministry & ordinances of Christ, The 3. Arg. is the Ministry of Autichrists Apostasy, 2. Thes. 2.3.4. with 1. joh. etc. Such is the Ministry of their Church Assemblies. Ergo, It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Assumption is evident, 1. Aman may peaceably receive or administer, their holy things in their manner, by virtue of their Deacoury or Priesthood, received from their Prelates. But if any do administer or receive the holy things of God by the offices of Pastors, and Teachers entered into and executed according to the Testament of Christ, they are reviled and persecuted. 2. Their Prelacy, Priesthood, and Deaconry is the very means of thrusting away and keeping out of the Church the Ministry and order which Christ hath appointed, which some of themselves heretofore have acknowledged, and written. Answer. 1. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies being answerable to the laws, is not a Ministry exalted in any thing, above the Ministry of Christ, but the very same in nature and quality, though in some accidents it may differ. In which difference, if there be any sin, it is of ignorance, or infirmity in the Ministers; which may in as high or a higher degree befall unto the best Ministers that ever were since the Apostles times. 2. The holy things which they administer are the holy things of jesus Christ, and not of their own, & by virtue of that Priesthood and Deaconry which they have received they may not administer any other holy things but what Christ jesus requireth. The other things which they administer are judged by them which administer them; only things indifferent and matters of order, wherein if they which use them be deceived, it is but such an error as worthy Martyrs of jesus Christ have been subject unto, and not sufficient to make their Ministry an Antichristian Ministry. 3. The Prelates do not persecute any true Pastors and Teachers, so much for Ministering any of the holy things of Christ, as for refusing to conform to some special ordinances of their own, which they do not hold to be holy things, but matters of order, & which by reasons they have endeavoured to prove to be so: wherein the practice of Prelates is no more extreme, than their own, who censure as far as they can, in all extremity, all them who do not in all points, conform and agree to their own orders, ceremonies and Church policy. 4. It can never be proved, that the admittance of this Ministry, is a hindrance of a better, but rather it is a means to keep out a worse, and away in time to bring in a better, if a better be to be brought in, for by yielding to some things that may be bettered & is so wished and endeavoured, a door is opened to Minister many holy things, which otherwise should be shut. And if it be as lawful, for us to conjecture, as for him, Their general Schism and rent from this Ministry, hath been one main and principal means to uphold it as it is. Fr. john. The Ministry which is such as in the nature and condition thereof it pertaineth not to any body or estate either civil or ecclesiastical but only to the body or kingdom of Antichrists Apostasy. The 4. Arg. Such is the Ministry of their Church Assemblies. Ergo, It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Assumption is clear, in as much as their Prelacy, Priesthood, and Deaconry; is such that the Civil State may be perfect without, them and the Church of Christ may be complete without them, only the body, and Kingdom of the Romish Antichrist, cannot be full and furnished in all the offices thereof without them. Answer. For Answer to the Assumption, 1. Concerning the Prelacy (though it be not any Ministry of any of our Church Assemblies, and therefore Idly urged, in this and all the other Arguments) this may be said; 1. That the principal, and most honourable parts thereof is only usurped by Antichrist, and doth not appertain to him, but to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Magistrates, and States. 2. That the State of a Christian common wealth cannot be perfect, without some general visitors, and overseers of Churches. 3. That though a particular Church or congregation may be complete without them, yet for the necessary union, and agreement of the several Churches in Christian Provinces, and Kingdoms, it is fit and agreeable to reason, and no ways repugnant to God's word, that under the Supreme Magistrate there should be, other Governors to protect, and incorrage those Ministers, and Churches which do their duty, and to punish those which shall offend. Wherein if either through warrant of humane laws, or some personal corruption, they shall in some things pass their bounds, they do no more than any other officers either Civil or Ecclesiastical, through frailty, & infirmity may do. 4. That the kingdom of Antichrist cannot be furnished, in all the offices thereof without the Authority of Civil Magistrates, and therefore this seems to make as much against the calling of civil Magistrates as Bishops. 2. Concerning the Ministry of our Priests and Deacons, such as it is, or by law ought to be in our Church Assemblies, the Church of Christ cannot be complete without it; yea it is no Church without it. Nether can the kingdom of Antichrist stand before it, Nether will he ever prove the contrary. Fr. john. The Ministry which is such as the body of Antichrist the man of sin, The 5. Arg. cannot without it be complete in all the members and canonical functions thereof is the Ministry of Autichrists Apostasy. Such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Assumption is proved by the Canons, Pontifical, and estate of the Romish Antichrist. Answer. This Argument is but the tail of the former, & therefore needs no further Answer, it being cut of in the answer to the former. The Canons Pontifical, & State. of the Romish Antichrist do manifest the contrary, which have and do curse and persecute with sword and fire, such a Ministry as is the Ministry of our Church Assemblies: if it be in all points to the intent of the law. Fr. john. The Ministry of Deacons, Priests, and Prelates which accounts itself to be Christ's, and yet indeed is such, as the Kings and Rulers of the Earth may and aught to suppress, and root out of their dominions, is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Such is their Ministry. Therefore it is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Assumption is proved in the former reason and in other Treatises, and by some of themselves in their Suits to Parliament, and if the Prelates and their conforming clergy, deny it they are by their own Canons excommunicated ipso facto. Answer. This sixth Argument is borrowed from the first Reason where it is brought to prove that our Ministry is not the Ministry of Pastors and Teachers, as here it is brought again to prove, that it is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy; Thus than he reasoneth, the King may and aught to suppress this Ministry, Therefore it is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. But how doth he prove, That the King ought to suppress this Ministry? He refers us for the proof thereof especially to the former Reason, how doth he prove it there? Thus. It is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Therefore the king ought to suppress it. Is not this learned stuff? Concerning his other Treatises, which he so often sends us unto, as if they were in every street and market place of the land, we have not so much idle time to seek after them: and we presume we shall find no better stuff in them then in this; If any amongst us have put up any such suit to the Parliament, for the abolishing of our Ministry in general, let them answer for themselves; But the Prelates may well laugh at his simplicity, and seelinesse of wit, that thinks to fright them with such a bugbear as this, in making them believe that they are by their own Canons excommunicated ipso facto, if they deny that the King may, and aught to abolish our Ministry. Fr. john. If it be such as shall be abolished by the Lord throughout the power, and light of his Gospel, The 7. Arg. then is it the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The first is true. Therefore the latter is true also. Answer. The same answer will serve to this Argument, that was given to the former; For the Assumption is false, The light of the Gospel shall more, and more, confirm establish, and perfect it, and remove all the defects and blemishes in it, his proof is as ridiculous, and sophistical, as is the former; for he proves it by the same question, that here it is brought to prove, for so in effect proceeds his disputation. That which shall be abolished is Antichristian. Our Ministry shall be abolished. Ergo, It is Antichristian. But how doth he for our learning prove that our Ministry shall be abolished, very learnedly and profoundly thus. That which is Antichristian shall be abolished. Our Ministry is Antichristian. Therefore it shall be abolished. For this is the effect of that idle discourse of 2. or 3. leaves, viz. pag. 46. 51. tending to prove, That Antichrist, and all his offices shall be abolished. THE THIRD REASON. EXAMINED. WHat soever Ministry is such none can hear or have any spiritual communion with it, but in so doing he shall worship the Image of the beast, and receive his Mark, in his forehead or hand. That Ministry may none hear, or have any spiritual communion with all. But the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, is such as none can hear or have any spiritual Communion therewith but in so doing he shall worship the Beasts image, and receive his mark in his forehead or hand. Ergo, None may hear or have any Spiritual communion therewith. Answer. This Reason for the effect and substance thereof differeth not from the second, for what is it (by his own interpretation) to worship the beasts image, but to subject himself to the Ministry, and worship of Antichrists Apostasy, and how is it possible for him to prove this but by running to the former Reasons, for their help therein. For the proof of the Assumption he sets us down a tedious and impertinent discourse of some six leaves of paper, teaching what is meant by the beast & his Image, and by receiving the mark in the forehead or hand, The some and effect whereof is this, That by Beast we are to understand the Roman Dominion and Antichrists hierarchy, withal the offices, laws, Pag. 51.— 63. and authority appertaining thereunto, That by worshipping the Beasts Image may be understood the yielding of spiritual subjection to that Antichristian kingdom in the laws offices and jurisdiction thereof, That by receiving the mark in the forehead or hand, is publicly to profess and observe them not being a shamed of the beasts ways. And this do all they who submit to the govermet of Prelates, Priests, Parsons, Vicars, book worship, etc. Not to contend about this interpretation, but to suppose it true, there is nothing in substance here brought to confirm the 3. Reason, but that which is in the 2. Reason, viz. that therefore we worship the beast, in communicating with our Ministry, Because it is the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. And therefore it needs no other Answer, than what hath been given already. Only thus much further, That for men so far forth to submit to the Government of such Prelates, etc. as our laws do require, is not to yield spiritual subjection to the Kingdom of Antichrist, nor without shame to profess the Beasts ways. For they may not withstanding that be subject to Christ and his laws, and to fight against the beast. Yea though it should be granted, that there, in sundry particulars they yield to some things, in their use Antichristian and unlawful; which the best reformed Churches and Ministers, sometimes of ignorance or infirmity may do; and yet remain the Churches and Ministry of Christ. THE FOURTH REASON. EXAMINED. NOne may hear or join in any Spiritual Communion with that Ministry which deriveth not their power and function of Ministry from Christ, which is the head for the edification of his Church, which is his body. Such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Therefore none may hear or join in Spiritual Communion therewith. Answer. This reason is the same with the first; for it is all one, To be derived from Christ, &, To be set by Christ in his Church, The other words which here he addeth, Doth no more vary the force of the Argument, than a new garment put upon the same witness would make him a nue and different witness from himself. In the proof of the Assumption he daubs 6. pages, bringing therein, nothing but his old brokery, the substance whereof is as followeth. 1. Pag. 64.— 70. That our Ministers have not these offices which Christ hath given to his Church for the work of his Ministry. 2. That it is the Ministry of Deacons and Priests made by the Prelates. 3. That they were left in England by the Pope, and are still in the Kingdom of Antichrist where they first rose, and therefore is devilish, and by consequent the more gifts and truth the Ministers bring with them, the more the uphold the Ministry of iniquity, and intisse unto their stolen waters and hid bread. 4. That our Church assemblies are not true visible Churches of Christ unseperated from the world not joined together in Communion of the Gospel by voluntary Profession of the faith and submission to the Government of Christ, but standing in bondage unto Antichrist. The very rehearsal of which reasons is answer sufficient, he being notable to prove, any of these assertions, but either by the Assumption itself, that they are brought to prove or one by another circularly; Contrarily I affirm. 1. That there is no ordinary Ministerial office that Christ hath given unto his Church, for the work of his Ministry, but our Ministers either have or by our laws ought to have the same. 2. That it is a Ministry as opposite for the substance thereof, to the Ministry of Popish, Priests, & Deacons, as light is opposite to darkness. 3. That the Pope left not such Priests, and Deacons as ours are, nor hath any such in his Kingdom; But that our Priests and Deacons, have been under God and the Prince, the principal Persons that have driven, the Pope and his Priests and Deacons, out of the Realm; That it is devilish for any to say that they are devilish except they can prove it by better reasons. That they that have the best gifts, do not entice any to stolen waters, or hidden bread, or to uphold any Mystery of iniquity; Except the Gospel of jesus Christ, and the true and only means of salvation; be the Mystery of iniquity. 4. That our Church Assemblies being such as by the laws of the land they ought to be; are so far forth separated from the world, joined together in the communion of the Gospel, by the voluntary profession of faith, etc. and freed from Antichrist, as is sufficient to make them true visible Churches of Christ, notwithstanding that many things may be wanting, to the full and desired perfection of them. And I doubt not but we shall be far more able at any time by reason out of God's word, to prove these points, than ever M. johnson will be to prove the contrary. And yet it were easy to prove any thing, by such a juggling Method of Reasoning, as M. johnson hath gotten; For he can prove you the 1. Reason by the 2, the 2. by the 1. The 3. by the 1. and 2, the 1. and 2. by the 3. The 4. by the 1.2. & 3. and every of them by the 4. and all 4. by that question which here they are brought to prove. THE FIFT REASON. EXAMINED. Fr. john. NOne may hear or have any Spiritual communion with those Ministers, which Minister the holy things of God, and work upon the Consciences of men, by virtue of a falls Spiritual calling. Such are the Ministers of the Church Assemblies of England. Ergo, None may hear or have any Spiritual communion with them. Answer. This Argument which here he brings against our Ministry, is the very same with the 2. For by a falls Spiritual calling, he means a calling proceeding from the Apostasy of Antichrist. The Preposition for brevity sake he proves by five and thirty places of Scripture: And yet who soever shall pleas to take the pains to examine them, shall find, that neither severally nor jointly, they prove the same. The Assumption whereon the whole weight of the controversy, leaneth, he proveth only by the first Argument, whereby he proved the Assumption of the 2. Reason viz. Because they do it by virtue of their Ministry received of their Prelates, from their Spiritual Authority, which is usurped and Antichristian; And this is all this witness hath to say; and all the answer it needeth; Only he wandereth into certain objections, and queries, grounded upon some supposed defences of some of our Ministers; Unto which I will (though I need not) give a brief answer from point to point. Obj. Some say they preach not by virtue of their Ministry taken from the Prelates, but by virtue of some other calling and Authority. Ans. I know none having received ordination from the Prelates, that need deny that they preach partly by virtue of the Ministry which they have taken from them; No though they hold the calling of Prelates unlawful: For what is the Ministry which they have taken from them, for the substance thereof. But (after a trial of their gifts) a liberty, and leave granted unto them to preach the word of God, and administer the Sacraments, in such Congregations as they shall be called unto. Obj. Why will such seem to renounce that calling, received of the Prelates, and yet blame us for doing the like. Ans. They may acknowledge a further calling, then that of the Prelates, and yet not therein renounce the calling received from the Prelates, but rather ratify the same; For the Prelates being learned divines, and having approved of their gifts, and by words, and letters Testimonial given, liberty to execute the Ministry of the Gospel; they do not thereby thrust them into a Ministry, but they leave them to be further called or chosen, either by the people, or those Patrons, unto whose fidelity the people have committed this charge: And therefore this acknowledging of a further calling, maketh nothing to the justification of the proud & ignorant schism of this Persons. Obj. If they preach by virtue of another calling how then stand they Ministers of that Church where no other is allowed, and how impose they themselves upon any of their Parish Assemblies, seeing the laws of the land allow only the Prelacy, Priesthood, and Deaconry a foresaid, Ans. Though this should be granted (which he in his ignorant simplicity doth suppose) that some amongst us, having been ordained by the Prelates did exercise our Ministry, by virtue of another calling, and though the law of the land, allow no other, yet (especially so long as they are permitted to execute their Ministry by those in Authority, though it be by virtue of another calling) they are to be reputed Ministers of that Church, that hath use of their Ministry. Obj. How also herein can they avoid to be both intruders and hypocrites, intruders in taking upon themselves a public office in that Church against the public laws and constitutions thereof, hypocrites, because they pretend in show one thing to the Prince, and State, and yet perform another indeed. Ans. All these inferences are upon a false supposition; yet if there were any such Persons, they could no more therein be said to be intruders, and hypocrites than they of the Separation are; For though the public laws should be against any other calling, yet so long as they take an office by a good calling, they cannot be said to intrude themselves. Nether do any such amongst us (if there be any such) pretend in show any more than they do indeed perform, for so far forth as any differ in judgement from the public laws, of the State, they are ready to profess it, being called thereunto, and they practice only that, which they judge lawful, being as ready, as any of the separation to suffer, rather than practice approve, or assent unto any thing, which they judge unlawful, and unwarrantable. Obj. But suppose they had some other lawful calling yet they also retaining this unlawful calling of the Prelates this were but to halt between two opinions, and to set their threshold by Gods threshoulds and their posts by God's posts. Ans. How can such be said to retain the unlawful calling of the Prelates, which protest against the same, & profess that they preach not by that, but by another calling? But if there be any such, that exercise their Ministry by another calling besides that of the Prelates, they therein refuse; obedience, and conformity to what soever in the Prelates calling they judge unlawful, and so do not join an unlawful and a lawful calling together, but reject the corruptions, retain the good, and supply the defect with another calling; and this is the worst that can be made of it; But this is not to join man's Treshoulds to Gods, etc. but clean contrary, to separate them, as much as may be; And how can they be said to halt between two opinions, when so far only as the truth (in their judgement and opinion) is established by public laws they embrace it, acknowledging their subjection to the same laws, and contrarily, where they judge that the law swerves from the truth, they take another course, But still he begs this, (which is the main controversy) that our Ministers have received an unlawful calling from the Prelates. In the next place he labours to prove by reasons that howsoever some pretend another calling, yet it is evident, that the execute all the duties of their ministries, by virtue of their calling taken from their Prelates; But what of that; This will stand him in no steed, unless it be given him of alms. That every Ministry executed by virtue of a calling taken from the Prelates, is an unlawful and an Antichristian ministery; For prove it he cannot, And if we should, except this also be given him, That our Ministry is executed ONLY by virtue of a calling taken from the Prelates; and not by any other power, or virtue besides, taken either from God or man. But let us see his reasons. 1. They cannot stand public Ministers except they receive of the Prelates the Priesthood and Deaconry a foresaid. 2. They are excommunicated ipso facto, if they affirm that they who are made Bishops, Deacons, and Priests, are not lawfully made, until thy have some other calling. 3. The people have not the liberty of the Churches of Christ nor power in this their estate to choose and submit unto the true and lawful Ministry appointed by Christ. 4. Without and against the people's consent, they are by the Prelates a lone silenced, deprived, and degraded from exercisiing any Ministry in those Assemblies. These reasons do not prove, That they exercise their ministry ONLY by virtue of a calling received from the Prelates, and therefore whether true or falls are nothing to the purpose, and unworthy any further Answer. After this he fetcheth another Road out, and laboureth to prove, that our Ministers ought not to suffer themselves to be silenced, and deposed from their public Ministry, no not by lawful Magistrates, which is not only falls and seditious; as shall appear afterward, but idle and impertinent, to the present controversy, for if it were true that Ministers ought not to do in this case, as ours do; yet this doth not argue, any corruption in the calling of their Ministry, but a weacknesse only in the Persons that execute it, in yielding further from their own right, than they need to do; But let us consider the particulars, that he objecteth against our Ministers in this respect. Obj. The Apostles being true Ministers of Christ would not at the commandment of lawful Magistrates, leave to preach, much less should true Ministers, at the appointment of usurping Prelates. Nether did the Apostles make, their immediate calling from God the ground of their refusal, but this, That they ought to obey God rather than man, which is a duty required of all Ministers and Christians. Ans. 1. Where he distinguisheth between silencing, & depriving, by Prelates and lawful Magistrates, it is in our case, where the Prelates do it by Authority, and commission from lawful Magistrates; a distinction without a difference. 2. Though the Apostles did not assign, their imidiate calling from God, as the ground of their refusal, in so many letters, and syllables, yet that which they do assign, is by implication, and in effect the same with it; for it is as much as if they had said; God himself hath imposed this calling upon us, and not man; & therefore except we should rather obey man, than God, we may not forbear, this office, which he hath imposed upon us. For opposing the obedience of God to the obedience of man, he therein pleads a calling from God; and not from man: otherwise if they had received a calling from man, there had been incongruity in the answer, considering that in common sense and reason, they ought so far forth to obey men, forbidding them to exercise a calling, as they exercise the same by virtue of that calling else by this reason, A Minister should not cease to preach, upon the commandment of the Church, that hath chosen him, but should be bound to give them also the same answer which they Apostles gave, which were absurd. So that by this gross conceit of M. johnsons, their should be no power, in any sort of men whomsoever, to depose a Minister from his Ministry, but that notwithstanding any commandment: of Church or State the Minister is to continue in his Ministry. But for the further answer of this his ignorant conceit plainly tending to sedition, we are to know; That though the Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists, preached publicly where they were not hindered by open violence, And did not, nor might not leave their Ministry upon any human Authority and commandment whatsoever; because they did not enter into or exercise the same, upon the will, and pleasure of any man whatsoever; yet they never erected and planted public Churches and ministries in the face of the Magistrate, whether they would or Noah, or in despite of them. But such in respect of the eye of the Magistrate, were as private and invisible as might be: Neither were some of the Apostles only forbidden, so as others should be suffered to preach the same Gospel in their places: but the utter abolishing of Christian Religion was manifestly intended in the silencing of them. But our Churches whereof we are Ministers, are no private & secret Assemblies, such as hide themselves from the face of a persecuting Magistrate, and State. But are public professing their worship, & doing their religion in the face of the Magistrate and State, yea and by his countenance, authority and protection; And we are set over those Churches, not only by a calling of our people, but also by the authority of the Magistrate who hath an armed power to hinder any such public Action: who is willing also to permit and maintain other true Ministers of the Gospel in those places where he forbiddeth some. If therefore after our public calling, to Minister to such a known and public Church, but by the Magistrate also, The Magistrate shall have matter against us, (whether just or injust it skilleth not) and shall in that regard forbidden us to Minister to our Church. I see not by what warrant in God's word, we should think ourselves bound not withstanding to exercise our Ministry still; Except we should think such a law of Ministry to lie upon us, that we should judge ourselves bound, to run upon the sword point of the Magistrate or to oppose sword to sword. It being not the use of the higher powers, in such cases nakedly to forbid, but to set a sword to the breast, thereby to force them, which shall refuse. And suppose the Magistrate should do it injustly, and against the will of the Church, and should therein sin; yet doth not the Church, in that regard cease to be a Church, nor ought she therein to resist the will of the Magistrate; Nether doth she stand bound in regard of her affection to her Minister (how great and deserved soever) to deprive herself of the protection of the Magistrate, by leaving her public standing to follow her Ministry in private and the dark; refusing the benefit of all other public Ministry, which with the leave and liking of the Magistrate she may enjoy; Nether do I know what warrant any ordinary Minister hath by God's word in such a Case so to draw any such Church or people to his private Ministry, that thereby they should hazard their outward state and quiet in the Common wealth where they live, when in some competent Measure they may publicly, with the grace and favours of the Magistrate, enjoy the ordinary means of their Salvation, by another, (and except he have a calling to Minister to some other Church) to be content to live as a private member, till it should please God to reconcile the Magistrate unto him, and so call him again to his own Church, labouring in mean while, privately upon particular occasions offered, to strengthen and cofirme, in the ways of God those people that are deprived of his public labours, and I take it to be the duty, of the people in such a case, if they will approve themselves, faithful Christians, and good Subjects, so to submit to the Ministry of another, as that by prayer and all other good dutiful and loyal means, they may do their best endeavour to obtain him of whom against their will, they have been deprived and still to affect and love him as their Pastor. Now if the people do thus, then is that Minister called to be silent not only by the Magistrate, but by them also, though with much grief. Obj. It is the duty of all Ministers, and Christians as will as Apostles, to obey God, and not man, when man forbiddeth that which God commandeth, or commandeth that which God forbiddeth. Ans. True, but God no where that I can find, commandeth either a Minister to Minister publicly in a public Church maintained by the Magistrate, against the will, and in despite of the Magistrate, no more then against the will and in despite of the Church itself. Obj. Vriah at the commandment of the King made an Altar after the fashion of that of Damascus but therein sinned, though he offered thereon such burnt-offerings as God had appointed; much less may the Ministry under the Gospel, be framed after any nue manner devised by man lest of all after Antichrist, though in that Ministry many doctrines of the Gospel be taught, and such Sacraments administered as God hath ordained. Ans. This Example of Vriah the Priest is altogether impertinent, unto that which goeth before. It being one thing upon the commandment of the Magistrate to forbear the public exercise of a true Ministry, another thing upon his commandment to frame a nue Ministry after a nue manner devized by man or Antichrist. After this he runs out of his way again to satisfy an objection, that he had propounded and endeavoured (as far as his learning would give him leave) to answer before; And which doth nothing at all depend upon any thing that goeth before in this Argument, wherein he resembles some wanton Curs, that takes delight to turn round about to catch their own tails; But let us see what it is he saith. Obj. Here again concerning such as plead that they teach the truth, and many excellent points of Doctrine. It is to be observed, that yet none may therefore hear their Ministry under Coler of learning the truth because in yielding to receive and hear it from Antichrists Ministry, They defile the Temple of God, and become the Subjects of Antichrist, pag. 75. Ans. Where he again, taketh it as matter that must whether we will or Noah, be granted unto him, That our Ministry is Antichrists Ministry, which needs no other answer then before, yet thus much further. 1. That no Ministry whatsoever (so far forth as it teacheth the truth of Christ especially a truth opposite to the doctrine of Antichrist) is the Ministry of Antichrist; And those which shall submit and subject themselves unto any Ministry whatsoever, only so far forth as they Minister and teach such truth, cannot therein be said to defile the Temple of God, or to be Subjects of Antichrist, but be obedient to jesus Christ. 2. Our Ministry in diverse Congregations of the land at the least, Teach not only many excellent points of doctrine. But so much doctrine as is sufficient to the Salvation of him that believeth the same; even all the main fundamental points of Salvation clearly set down in God's word; yea and for aught any can prove to the contrary. All other less necessary points, so far forth, as God hath revealed, and convinced their consciences of the truth of them. 3. Those amongst us who make conscience of hearing our Ministry, do not hear them under a Colour of learning the truth, but only to this very end, and purpose, that they might learn the truth, and therein the true way of serving and worshipping God according to his own will. Obj. And not to speak of the many errors & falsehoods which they also teach, it is no nue thing that the Ministers of Antichrist, should in divers things teach and bring the truth with them, for when Satan cannot by falsehood utter his wares, ordinances, Ministry worship, he will be glad to utter the same by teaching the truth. pag. 75.76. Ans. 1. Our Errors whether for weight or member, or quality, are not such, so great, so many, but they may be fall unto true Christians, whether Ministers or people, yea (as M. johnson well knoweth) many of the Martyrs of jesus Christ, have lived and died, in more and greater Errors of the same kind, and therefore well may he pass by this point. This is but a piece of his simple thetoricke, carelessly to seem to pass by that which he cannot prove. For how many Errors, can he name or number, that he is able to justify to be taught in the Ministry of our Church Assemblies? what one truth of Religion can he name, that is not or hath not been (when just occasion hath been offered) taught by some of our Ministers? I am not ignorant that in his treatises against M. A. H. and M. H. I. he mustreth a whole troop of pretended Errors, but suppose them to be so many destinct Errors, how doth he prove they are taught in our Ministry or that they are required by law to be taught? There is indeed a Conformity and Subscription required to some of them, and a Canon that requires that the late Canons be read in Churches some times in the year, as also that the book of Articles be read at the first entrance upon an Ecclesiastical Church, with a testification of assent unto it: But is this Ministerially to teach the Errors contained in the said books? May not a man in the weacknesse of his judgement, and in infirmity at his first entrance into a calling, conform and subscribe unto some things, not so warantable, and true, and yet not teach them for truths; yea may he not, for all that teach doctrine in itself directly contrary to those untruths, yea and yet satisfy also the mind of the law, which being humane, and therefore not always perfect, may command that very truth to be taught, which being thoroughly followed, will destroy some untruths, which the same law also requires? Further it is one thing to read the Canons to the people, thereby to declare unto them what is required at their hands, by their Governors, another thing to teach, and justify the Errors countained in them, and to testify an assent unto some Errors, is not Ministerially to instruct the people in those Errors. 2. Though it be no nue thing that the Ministers of Antichrist, should in diverse things bring the truth with them; Yet this is a nue thing and never hard of before, That the Ministers of Antichrist, should teach the whole truth of Christ jesus for the substance thereof. That they should oppose directly and zealously against the main, and foundamentall doctrines of Antichrist; That they should profess him to be Antichrist, and that man of sin, and to the shedding of their blood, should exercise their Ministry against Antichrist and his kingdom, protesting against him and his Service, were it not nue strange that a man should be counted a true Subject unto a Prince, then when he doth openly protest against him. Counting him a usurping Tyrant, and employing all the wit power and strength he hath against him? such subjects of Antichrist are our Ministers, or by the laws such they ought to be. Can he be said to be a Minister of Christ, that yielding to some external kites, and professing some doctrines of Christian faith, doth not withstanding, directly, openly and professedly, renounce Christ and his Service, and profess himself to be an enemy to him, and his Kingdom, If it hold not in the one, it is not both a nue and strange thing that it should hold in the other. 3. M. johnson out of his knowledge must teach us; how Satan can be said, by teaching the truth to utter his own Ministry, or worship, or how a Satanical Ministry can be uttered when in and by the Ministry, nothing but the truth of Christ is administered; what is the Ministry of Satan but the Ministry of Error? how can the Ministry of Error be uttered by teaching the Truth? or how can a Ministry be said to be uttered, by a truth, when it is the Ministry itself that uttereth the truth, Surely no more than a Merchandise can be said to be uttered by selling of wares, and were it not a wonder, if a man should utter his bad ambergris, by selling good & sound wares? Satan and Antichrist indeed together with some truths, seek to utter much falsehood, which otherwise (they know) would not be received: And many of our Ministers are content to yield to some things which they judge not so counvenient (if it did otherwise some good to the State) to the end they may utter the truth. But that like Antichrist and Satan our Ministers should propound this unto themselves, to teach some truths to this end that they might, thereby utter falsehood and lies, falls ministries & worships is a Malicious imputation, and can never be justified. Obj. Beza saith, Though Antichrist teach the truth (which sometimes he doth) to the end he may more easily seduce to believe his lies, yet we are to stop our ears against him, lest under his pretence, we be deceived by him. pag. 76. Ans. Well, but it is yet to prove, That our Ministers are Antichrists, and that they teach the truth to any such wicked intent; the contrary is manifest, when many of them in regard of the times, are countent, to yield to some colourable untruths, that they might thereby purchase liberty unto themselves, to advance the truth of Christ, They yield to some things in appearance Antichristian, that they might with more liberty fight against Antichrist. Obj. Who knoweth not that Antichrist and his Ministers are hypocritical friends to Christ under the name of Christ fight against him. Ans. But who knoweth not that our Ministers, if they be such as our laws require them to be, are sworn enemies to Antichrist, and in the name of Christ, and under some of Antichrists own Rites do fight against him and resist him unto blood; And who knoweth not, that many of them have died for Christ at the foot of Antichrist. THE sixth ARGUMENT. IF the present Ministry of the Church of England be a strange Ministry, then is it not lawful in the worship of God, to hear it, or have any Spiritual communion therewith. But such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Therefore it is not lawful in the worship of God to hear it, or have any Spiritual Communion therewith. The Assumption is manifest, for a strange Ministry is that which is not by the law ordained, and given for that work, as themselves here tofore have published, and as is proved in the first Reason. Answer. This Reason differreth not in substance from diverse of the former, for what is it to be a strange Ministry, but to be a Ministry that is not set by Christ in his Church which is his 1. Reason. But to be a Ministry which deriveth not the power and function from Christ, which is his 4. Reason. But to be a Ministry that worketh upon men's consciences by virtue of a falls Spiritual calling which is his 5. Reason. Might he not with as great facility out of this method of reasoning have brought forth 7000. Reasons as these seven. But how doth he prove the Assumption of his reason? by sending us back again (as you may see) to the first Reason. So that all the reason of this Reason is borrowed from the 1. Reason and is answered all ready in the Answer thereof. But before he passeth to the next reason, he runs out after the wont fashion, into an idle discourse, nothing at all appertaining to the Argument in hand, bringing in some idle observations upon the Story of Corah, Dathan, and Abiram, & also of Naaman, falsely Misapplied unto our Church Assemblies & Ministry. For he taking it as granted, or as a thing that could not be denied him, That our Ministry is Antichristian, & that our worship is Idolatry, he makes our Ministers, & people even the best of them worse than Corah, Dathan, & Abiram and them which were of their conspiracy, and our Assemblies and worship as bad as the Temple of Rimmon, and the idolatry therein performed. And where he brings the example of Naaman, as brought by some of us to justify our joining with our Church Assemblies I persuade myself he doth against the knowledge and light of his own conscience belly us; & that there cannot be one of us brought forth, that ever made this plea; we hold it as unlawful (as themselves) outwardly & but in appearance to join with idolaters, in their Idolatry: & we see no warrant why for every particular Act, that in a large sense is Idolatrous, adjoined to God's true worship, we should forbear our presence, at the true worship itself. Or that our presence, for the true worship's sake alone, should in respect of some point of false worship thereunto a nexed be (as he speaketh) the submitting our bodies to a strange worship. Especially when we are not particular Actors in it, but only present, beholding it with grief, and suffering it in others for the true worship sake unto which it is adjoined, If this should be held unlawful; then can no man present himself with a good conscience, at any public worship of God wheresoever. Because (except it should be stinted and prescribed, which M. johnson holds to be a false worship) he can have no assurance, but that some errors in matter or form will be committed; yea if he be a man of understanding, and learning, he may presume in a manner, that in the public worship, some error or other in matter or form, greater or lesser will be committed, before which he must present himself. But what? were the jewish synagogues in Christ's time free from all parts of false worship? the Scripture witnesseth the contrary. Did they when Christ came into them, for bear their Assemblies? The Scripture confirms the contrary, was Christ presence then (as here he saith our presence is) a very bowing down unto them? was he also therein an unconscionable dissembler. Did he therein embrace the bosom of Strangers? break his covenant, go a whoring with the inventions of man. For (such fiere as this he spits at us) if not, why should it be such a sin in us? who have not such eyes to pierce into the impiety of man's traditions, as our Saviour had. THE seventh Reason. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IF the present Ministry of the Church of England be not from Heaven, but of men, then is it not lawful in the worship of God to hear or have any Spiritual Communion therewith. Such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Ergo, It is not lawful in the worship of God to have any Spiritual communion therewith. The Assumption is evident, because God hath not appointed the Ministry of the Church Assemblies, but man, as appears by their book or ordination, And if they will say the contrary, let themshew their callings out of the word of God. Answer. This Reason is the very same with the 4.5. and 6. and hath no ground, or proof but from them: And therefore is Answered also in the Answer of them. And this may be sufficient to show, that our Ministry is from Heaven, when so malicious, and exercised an Adversary whose whole Religion seems to lie in opposing to our Ministry, can say no more against it. THE SECOND SORT OF REASONS TAKEN AS is pretended forth of our own Writers. EXAMINED. THE FIRST ARGUMENT TAKEN from the twelve Arguments. EXAMINED. Fr. john. ALL will-worship is sin. To hear or communicate with the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, in Church Service in manner and form prescribed, is a will-worship. Therefore to hear or communicate with that Ministry is sin.. Answer. This syllogism is Sophistical, consisting plainly of four terms, Except he make his conclusion this. therefore to hear or communicate with that Ministry in manner and form prescribed is a sin. For the third Argument being will-worship. All the other terms they being no parts thereof, must be in the conclusion: If so be the syllogism be true as every Sophoming boy, in the university knoweth: And therefore he must either exclude them out of the Assumption, or include them in the conclusion, which he cannot do, it being his intent, by these Arguments to prove it a sin to communicate therewith not only in manner or form prescribed, but any other way, And therefore he Sophistically, or rather in ignorant and witless simplicity, concludes a general from a Special thus, It is a will-worship to communicate with our Ministry in manner and form prescribed. Therefore it is a sin to communicate therewith whether in manner or form prescribed or any other way. Whereas a Child may know this, That an Action done in some manner and form prescribed may be a will-worship and a sin, which done otherwise may be true worship; A man may therefore (if need be) grant both his premises and deny his conclusion. Nether will it help him, that the Author of the 12. Arguments, concluded against the Ceremonies, in the same form of words, that he doth here against the Ministry, It being plain by the scope of his whole disputation, That though he do not express those words in manner and form prescribed, in the conclusion; That yet he understandeth them, It being not his purpose to dispute absolutely against all use of them, but against the use of them, in that manner and form that they are prescribed. But whatsoever his Conclusion is, The Assumption is false, yea though it should be granted that in our Ministry there is some will-worship performed; yet let us see how he proves the Assumption. Fr. john. All parts of divine worship and Service imposed only by the will and pleasure of man upon the Communicants in divine service and that of necessity to be done, is will-worship. But to hear and Communicate, with the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of Eugland, in Church Service in manner and form prescribed, are such parts of divine worship, as is a foresaid. Ergo, To hear and Communicate with the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England in manner and form prescribed is a will-worship. Answer. The Proposition is taken forth of the 12. Arguments and therefore needs no Answer. The Assumption is false, But he proveth it thus, 1. Man imposeth this Ministry upon man, and God in his word hath not appointed these offices and Callings, Nether required any to communicate with them in Church Service in manner and form prescribed. And 2. the people stand bound to hear, and communicate with them upon pain of Suspension, deprivation, etc. and God must have no solemn worship in England except it be with communion to the same. Ergo, To hear and communicate with the present Ministry, etc. is a part of divine worship imposed as afore said. The first part of the Anticedent is false and is not proved by any ground taken from the 12. Arguments, for not man only, but God also hath imposed this Ministry, and hath appointed for the substance thereof their offices & Callings of the Ministers of our Church Assemblies; And hath required us to communicate with them in Church Service, in that form and manner, which the law in the true meaning thereof, prescribes, & which many at the least do practice. Nether doth the consequent follow upon the second part of the Antecedent, for though humane laws under never so great punishments, should bind us to never so great corruptions in God's Service; yet so long as we do not actually communicate in those corruptions, but only in the true parts of God's worship, our communicating is never the worse; for the said laws of men, but rather the better. Nether do we herein stand more bound, then M. johnson and his people do, when they are in these dominions: So that it makes as much against communicating with their Ministry as ours: Though therefore (as the Author of the 12. Arguments hath endeavoured to prove) the Ceremonies in Controversy should be held to be a will-worship, and therefore a sin to use them in God's worship, yet it followeth not, by the same Argument that it is a sin, to communicate with the Ministry of our Church Assemblies, Noah though it should use the said Ceremonies, much less, where and when it useth them not, as in some places, or at some times it doth not, neither is it by law required so to do. THE SECOND REASON taken from the twelve Arguments. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IT is a sin against God for Christians to partake with the Ministry of such, as accounting themselves to be Servants of jesus Christ, yet do in the execution of their Ministry give special honour to Antichrist, and his officers. But the Ministry of the Church of England is such. Therefore it is a sin for Christians to partake therewith. Answer. First I deny the Proposition, The true and best Ministers of jesus Christ, that ever were or shall be since the Apostles, may in their ignorance, or weacknes, do some act in their Ministry, that may bring some special honour to Antichrist, and yet Christians may lawfully, and without sin partake with such in their Ministry. It being not necessary, that who soever partaketh, with a Ministry should partake also with the accidental corruptions thereof. He tells us like a bold and blind biard. That the Proposition is manifest and clear to any that have an eye of Reason, and any light of divinity shining in it. And yet it hath not so much as any colour of truth, but in the eyes of such owls and bats as himself is; Arg. 2 The Proposition in the twelve Arguments unto which he would equal and parallel his, is this, It is a sin against God, for him that is by way of excellency a Servant of jesus Christ (without a precise and direct warrant from him at any time especially in the Solemn worship of God) to give special honour to Antichrist and his members; What? must it needs follow upon this, That it is a sin to partake any manner of way with such a ones Ministry, as shall in any measure commit such a sin? must the joining with them in any other parts of their Ministry needs be a communicating with them in this sin? He bids us see for this 2. Cor. 6.14.17. Rev. 18.4. but what is this to the twelve Arguments, from which he saith this reason is taken? And to what end should we see those places, except he had first made us to see, That our Ministers in their Ministry are Infidels and Belials. That their Ministry for the substance thereof is unrighteousness and darkness. That the God we served in our Ministry is an Idol, That our Assemblies are Babylon. And all this because some thing happily is done, by our Ministers, which (and yet contrary to their intent) is some honour to Antichrist. For except all this be granted unto him, these Texts are of no force to confirm the Preposition. The Assumption is as falls as the Proposition, Nether doth it follow from the Assumption, of that Argument of the 12. from which he would ground it. For though it should be granted, That to use the Ceremonies in Controversy in manner and form prescribed were to give special honours to Antichrist and his officers. Yet it doth not follow, That the Ministry of our Church Assemblies, are such that in the execution of their Ministry give special honour to Antichrist, and his officers. For some of our Ministers, from whom he separateth, do not in the execution of their Ministry use the said Ceremonies at any time, Nether do any of our Ministers at all times in the execution thereof, use them, neither are required so to do. The Assumption notwithstanding he proceedeth to prove thus. Fr. john. Such a Conformity to Antichrist and his officers as is not only besides the word of God, but in a special manner derogatory to all reformed Churches that have departed from the Synagogue of Rome, is a special honour to Antichrist and his Officers. But the Execution of the Ministry of the Church of England is such. Ergo, The Execution of that Ministry in manner a foresaid is to give special honour to Antichrist and his officers. Answer. The Proposition is word for word in a manner taken out of the 12. Arguments. And therefore for this controversy not to be stood upon, whether it be true, or falls. The Assumption is false, and hath no ground at all from the 12. Arguments. For though it should be granted. That to use the Ceremonies in Controversy in divine worship is such a Conformity to Antichrist, and his members, as is specified in the Proposition; yet no man except he have some Crack in his brain, can from thence infer, That the execution of our Ministry, is such a conformity, especially then when in the execution thereof, they do not use the said Ceremonies, which none do at all times, and some do never. He proceeds to prove the Assumption, not by any ground taken from the 12. Arguments, but by some of the fragements of his own former reasonles reasons, and therefore the main issue of the Argument, lying not upon any thing, in the said Arguments. This second reason of his, cannot be said to be taken from the 12. Arguments. And therefore they are no wise guilty of his schism, nor do any ways herein this place, patronize the same. THE THIRD REASON TAKEN OUT OF THE TWELVE Arguments the London Ministers exceptions, and the Abridgement, etc. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IF such be the State of the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England, as they are bound in their Ministration unto such things, as the using of them in Church Service, in manner and form prescribed, is a will-worship, a giving of specially honour to Antichrist and his members, a performing of honours more than Civil, even Religions, only to a humane power, a warranting of the like use of jewish, Turkish, Paganish or Popish observations; a doing of schismatical Actions, an having of Spiritual Communion with Papists, in the Mysteries of their Idolatry, and Superstition, Amingling of profane things with divine, an using of unlawful things in divine worship; An administering of Sacraments, that are not of divine institution. A solemn acknowledging of Special homage, to the Spiritual usurped authority of Lord Bishops, an using of humane Traditions in God's worship as necessary to salvation, an apparent means of the damnation of many Souls. An observing of a lieturgy which in the whole matter, and forms thereof, is too like unto the mass book, etc. Then is it not lawful to communicate with the Ministers in their Ministry. But such is the estate of the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Therefore it is not lawful to communicate with them therein. Answer. M. johnson thinks surely, that in this Argument he hath out of our own writings, for ever disgraced our Ministry; But whether here or in the Arguments following, he deal faithfully with our writers, I know not, his bad dealing in this kind, we have discoured in part before, and doth most evidently appear in one particular following, wherein he most shamefully and lewdly, as a man void of all common honesty and grace, maketh the Ministers of Lincoln to affirm, See pag. 98. That the Prelates are revealed to be great Antichrists, and their Ministry, and constitution, to be great troublers of the Church at this day, and that it cannot but be very sinful and hurtful, to retain or communicate with them. The Devil himself would have been a shamed in this open manner to have told such a , and therefore he is to be trusted, no further, than he is seen; And herein his lewdness is the more to be suspected, That where he rehearseth many harsh, bitter, and unsavoury speeches against our Ministry and worship, as written by some of ourselves, that retain communion with the Ministry, and worship of our Church Assemblies; He doth not quote the particular places, but only refers us to the Authors in general, as though we had nothing else to do, but to reed over whole books to find out his Allegations, or that we must take them upon his word to be faithfully reported. But let us suppose, that our men have so written; yet there is no consequent in the Proposition: For what if our Ministry were bound to say Mass, to sing Matins. To worship the Virgin Mary. To acknowledge the Pope's Supremacy, etc. yet for all that it might be lawful to Communicate with our Ministers, in their Ministry: Except that in the execution of their Ministry they submitted unto that which they were bound unto. It being one thing, to be bound, and another thing to fulfil the bond; he might contrarily with as much wit and understanding have reasoned thus, If this be the estate of the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of Rome, that they are bound in their administration, to the renouncing of Antichrist, and all his Idolatry, offices, and will-worship; to conform only, in their Ministry to the Gospel of jesus Christ, and to such or dinances as are agreeable to the same, than it is lawful to communicate with them in their Ministry and worship. M. johnson would quickly discern the inconsequence of this Proposition; And why? because in the execution of their Ministry, they fulfil not this bound; And yet he cannot deny, but that they are, by a stranger bond, even a divine bond, bound unto this, than our Ministers to the contrary. The consequent he saith is proved by the Ministers of Lincolnshire, Abridgement pag. 17. But to pass by his depraving of them before touched, no such matter can be concluded from the words, which he here citeth, yea though he had dealt faith-fully in the citation of them. For though it should be granted that some act of spiritual fornication should be done in our Ministry, That we are to separate from idolaters and Antichristians, and to be as unlike them as may be, in their religious observations, Though God do bear a detestation of Idolatry, and all the Enticements thereof, as unto special whoredom. Though we ought to be a shamed of the monuments of Idolatry, and cast them away with detestation. Though we should be in some danger by them to be corrupted in Religion, by conforming unto idolaters in their Ministry and worship. Though keeping communion with such Ministers should be a special means to harden them in their sins. Though the Prelates were revealed to be great Antichrists. Though the Godly learned have constantly taught, that Christians are bound to forsake and cast of the Ministration, Ceremonies, and religious customs of Pagan, jews, Antichristian idolaters, and Heretics, and carefully to shum all conformity with them therein; Yet it doth not thereupon follow, That if the Ministers of our Church Assemblies be bound as a foresaid, that then it is not lawful to communicate with them in their Ministry. M. johnson therefore must be put to this pains, To prove this consequent. For further proof of the former consequent, he bringeth six Reasons more out of his own old and fusty horn of store which prove the consequent just a baculo ad augulum. To which it shall be needless to give answer, they being profess clean besides the purpose of these reasons, which is to justify their schism by grounds taken from our own writings. The Consequent then of the Proposition being evidently falls, The Assumption though it should have never so much ground from our own writings, will stand him in no stead. THE FOURTH REASON TAKEN OUT OF THE ADMOnitions to the Parliament. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IF the Offices of Arch Bishops, Arch Deacons, Lord Bishops, Suffraces, Parsons, Vicars, etc. be Antichristian and contrary to the Scriptures, than the people of God may not communicate with them in their Ministry. Ergo, The first is true. The later also. Answer. The Consequent is false, and he goeth not about to prove it, by any thing taken out of our own writings but by a stolen proof that hath been answered before; and therefore it requires no answer, only thus much of free bounty. That the offices of Arch Bishops etc. quatenes tales, are not of the essence of the Ministry of our Church Assemblies but mere Accidents. The Assumption therefore will stand him in no steed whether it be true or falls, and therefore I leave it to their maintenance from whom he saith he borroweth it. THE FIFT REASON TAKEN OUT OF THE offer of Conference. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IF the Propositions propounded to be maintained in the offer of Conference be true, To avoid tediousness, I forbear to set them down as M johnson hath done, but thou shalt discern what they are afterward in the Answer. then is it not lawful to hear or have any special Communion with the present Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. But those Propositions are true. Ergo, It is not lawful to have any Special Communion with the same. Answer. The Consequent is false; & doth not follow from the said Propositions. 1. Though it should be granted, That all matters merely Ecclesiastical, lawfully imposed upon any Church are such as may be concluded necessarily from the written word of God. Yet in a true constituted Church some matters merely Ecclesiastical may be imposed through humane frailty, that cannot so be concluded. 2. Though, all humane ordinances used only or specially in God's worship, whereunto they are not necessary of themselves were simply unlawful. Yet is not every such humane ordinance of that nature, that it maketh the Church and Ministry where it is used, to be a false Church, and Ministry, much less those Churches, and that Ministry, wherein it is not used, but enjoined only. 3. Though it were generally granted of all, That every true visible Church of Christ is such a Spiritual body politic as is specially instituted by Christ, or his Apostles in the new Testament. Yet it will not thence follow, That those Churches, and ministries are not to be communicated withal, that have any thing in or appertaining to the constitution thereof not instituted by Christ; or that such Churches are not true visible Churches. 4. Though, every true visible Church of Christ or ordinary Assembly of the faithful, hath by Christ's ordinance power in itself immedialy under Christ, to elect and ordain, deprive and depose, their Ministers, and to execute all other Ecclesiastical Censures. Yet will it not follow from thence, That all they are false Churches, and not to be communicated with all. That do not or by the laws of man are not suffered to use that power, Nether is it sure the meaning of them who offer the Conference, To maintain, That they are no true visible Churches of Christ that cannot use that power; but are therein subject to others; for one may by Christ's ordinance have a power to do that which yet in regard of man he hath no power to do. 5. Though, the Pastor of a particular congregation should be yielded to be the highest ordinary Ecclesiastical officer in any true constituted visible Church of Christ. Yet can it not hence be concluded, That those Pastors are false Pastors, who are outwardly by man's laws, subjected to a Superior Ecclesiastical officer. The Father ordinary is the highest officer in the family; yet if the Magistrate subject the father in some matters appertaining to the family to another, Though therein it may be he may do the father some wrong, yet doth not the father thereby become a false father, or the family a false family. Admit then that this prerogative due to Pastors, to have no Spiritual officers superior unto them, yet is it not so essential unto him, that without the Actual use and possession of it, he cannot be a true Pastor; And yet take a true visible Church in that sense, which the officers of the conference do viz. for a particular ordinary Assembly or Congregation, And then in our own Churches, The Pastor is the highest, there being no Ecclesiastical Officer in any such Churches, a 'bove him. 6. Grant this, That it is the office of every true. Pastor to teach and Govern Spiritually one Congregation immediately under Christ. Can it from hence be concluded, That they are no true Pastors, which govern more congregations than one, or which are subject in some outward things to some others besides Christ. 7. Admit, That the offices of Provincial and diocesan Bishops were contrary to the word of God; must it needs there upon follow, That those Ministers, and Churches which are under them by the laws of man, are falls: such especially who obey them only in things which they judge honest, and lawful, and who under this subjection do no more than they would do, if they were not subject at all unto the Bishops. A man must therefore bring a better head, & wit with him, then M. johnsons, That by the Propositions of the offer of Conference (how harsh soever they may seem to be) can conclude it unlawful to join and communicate with our Church Assemblies. For the proof of this consequent he bringeth nothing out of our own writings, but only to give his reader thereby a vomit, some of his own Coleworts, not twice, but twice twenty times sodden; To which we give him leave to look an Answer, from some as idle headed as himself. THE sixth ARGUMENT TAKEN OUT OF DIvers Treatises Answered. This Proposition being a whole leaf in his book. I forbear any further anser down, there being in effect little difference in the matter from that which he hath formerly brought. Fr. Ihon. IF the is Assertious be true, That that Church calling for which the Scripture give no express warrant, is merely usurped, and utterly unlawful, That as it is not lawful to bring in any strange doctrine, so is it not lawful, to teach the true doctrine under the name of any other function than is instituted by God, etc. But the aforesaid Assertions are true. Therefore it is unlawful to have communion with that Ministry. Answer. This Argument being a collection out of our writers doth not differ from the former; as himself granteth, and therefore needs no further Answer. The Consequent is false, and he proves it not by any of our own writers, as he ought to do, but still brings us profess out of his own musty Aumbry. The Assumption therefore borrowed out of our own writers, will do him no pleasure. THE seventh REASON TAKEN OUT OF THE twelve Arguments viz. the tenth. EXAMINED. Fr. john. IT is a sin against Christ the sole head of the Church, to have spiritual communion with those Ministers, which in their Administration of divine things do either by word or deed solemnly profess and yield a spiritual homage to an usurped spiritual Authority in the Church. But so do the Ministers of the Church Assemblies of England. Ergo, It is a sin to have communion with the same. Answer. The Proposition is false; And hath no ground from that Proposition in the 12. Arguments unto which he would match, and forth of which he would draw it. The Proposition there is this. It is a sin against Christ, the sole head of the Church, for any one of his Ministers, especially in the administration of divine things, either by words or signs, solemnly to profess, and acknowledge, a spiritual homage to a usurped Spiritual authority in the Church. Can he conclude his proposition from this doth it hence follow, That because our Ministers in their Ministry if they conform do in some measure in infirmity or ignorance commit some such sin, That therefore it is a sin to communicate with them, in other divine things, wherein they do not commit the same sin? He tells us, That the Proposition may not be gainsaid, and why doth he tell us so? because the Author of the 12. Arguments saith, his Proposition may not be denied. As though there were just the same reason for the one as is for the other; But why may not the Proposition; Because all Spiritual power usurped over the Churches of God is an Antichristian Authority, & to communicate with those Ministers which Profess Spiritual homage thereunto, is to communicate which such as profess Spiritual homage to Antichrist, which must needs be a sin against Christ the head of the Church. A deep and learned Reason. It can be no sin against Christ, to communicate with them, which in some action profess Spiritual homage to Antichrist, except in their communion, they also profess the same homage, which like an ignorant disputant, he maketh no question of. As though to join with one, that doth evil, in that which is good, is always to join with him in the evil, as though to join with a glutton in eating necessary food, were to join with him in his gluttony, or to join with a blasphemer, in the act of his blaspheming in rescuing an innocent out of the hands of Robbers, were to communicate with him in his blasphemy; But herein he propounds only to play the Ape imitating the Author of the twelve Arguments, who saith his Proposition may not be gain said, Because all Spiritual Power usurped over the Churches of God, is an Antichristian Authority, and to profess spiritual homage thereunto, is to profess spiritual homage unto Antichrist, which must needs be a sin. But what? is there no more Reason in this reason then in his? If this be a good Argument to prove that Proposition for which it is brought, must his Argument needs, be as good to prove his proposition? what because it is a sin to profess Special homage unto Antichrist must it needs also be a sin, to communicate also with them, who do profess some homage unto Antichrist, what? to communicate with them in other matters? The Assumption is as falls as the Proposition, And hath no ground for the twelve Arguments, for though it were granted, That to use the controverted ceremonies in manner and form prescribed were even in the solemn worship of Christ by solemn signs to acknowledge a spiritual homage to a spiritual usurped Authority of Arch Bishops and Bishops. Yet doth it not therfrom follow, That our Ministers in the administration of divine things, do the same; for none of our Ministers do always in the administration of divine things profess any such homage, and some do never profess it. And those who profess it, when they do profess it, propound, and intent no such matter. He proves the Assumption, Thus They preach the word and administer the Sacraments by virtue of their calling received from the archbishops and Bishops, etc. The vanity whereof hath been sufficiently showed already he therein begging one of his stolen reasons, and not borrowing any thing, from the twelve Arguments. That which followeth, whereby he would prove, That the Authority of L. archbishops, and Bishops is usurped, which he makes the 2. parts of his Assumption; is altogether idle, and to no purpose, and done only of malice to the Author of the twelve Arguments for otherwise, had he intended herein the convincing of the said Author, and of them which are of his mind, (which is the only use of the later sort of his reasons, & which can serve for no other use) it had been sufficient to have produced his Assertion without his profess; for that had been enough to declare, The Author's conceit. He concludes crowing as if he were some Cock of the game, that had picked out the eyes and broken the necks of all that have been set against him. And thus (saith he) the cause is yielded by themselves. And is it not (think we) finely yielded? is it not a field stoutly won, Is it any mervaille, that he makes such out cries against the whole Christian world, that will not follow such a leader. But I leave him to his vain conceits of his own cause, Trusting that any sober and judicious Christian, will be able to discern, therein his fond and ignorant vanity. And where as in the Answer of his Reasons, I have omitted to answer to many particular passages. All things considered I shall not need to ask him pardon, I should rather have cause to expect thanks, if I had to deal with a reasonable and good natured adversary. REASONS OR ARGUMENTS, TENDING TO PROVE THAT IT IS A sin to separate from the public Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. DIRECTLY CONTRARY TO Mr. JONHSONS OWN Reasons. AND VSVALLY IN THAT REgard made in the same mood and figure. The first Argument. It is a sin to separate from that Ministry which is set by Christ in his Church for the work of his ministery. But such is the Ministry of the Church Assemblies of England. Therefore it is a sin to separate from it. The profess which he bringeth to confirm the main Proposition of his first Reason, will serve to prove this. The Assumption may be proved thus. The Ministry of true Pastors and Teachers is the Ministry which is set by Christ in his Church. The Ministry aforesaid is the Ministry of true Pastors and Teachers. Therefore it is a Ministry set by Christ in his Church. The Proposition is his own. The Assumption I prove thus. The Ministry which hath in it all things essential to the office & calling of true Pastors & Teachers is the Ministry of true Pastors and Teachers. But such is our Ministry. Therefore it is the Ministry of true Pastors and Teachers. I think he is not so simple as to deny the Proposition. The Assumption is proved thus. To have such gifts as Christ ascended to heaven to give for the work of his Ministry. To be outwardly called to that work by such a Church as professeth the fondamentall points of the Gospel. To instruct the people committed to their Charge, in the doctrine of the law and Gospel: To administer unto them the holy Sacraments of Christ, And to be their month in prayer unto God; Are all things essentially appertaining to the office of true Pastors and Teachers. Such is the Ministry of our Assemblies. Therefore it is the true Ministry of Pastors and Teachers. If he deny the Proposition, he must show, what other matters do essentially appartaine unto their calling which yet he hath not done. For confirmation of the Assumption it shall be sufficient that we can set forth unto him, such a Ministry in sundry of our Church Assemblies, of which all these points may be truly verified, their conformity to the State, and their sin therein (if any be) not withstanding. The second Argument. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies is not the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. Therefore it is a sin to separate from the same. The consequent must be true until he can bring forth any other exceptions against our Ministry then such as appertain to the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Assumption is proved thus. The Ministry of the Church Assemblies of Antichrist is of Priests and Deacons. But the Ministry of our Church Assemblies is not the Ministry of Priests and Deacons. Therefore it is not the Ministry of Antichrists Apostasy. The Proposition is his own. The Assumption if I should follow his learning, I might prove thus, The Ministry of true Pastors, and Teachers is not the Ministry of Priests and Deacons. But such is the Ministry of our Assemblies. Ergo, and for the proof of the Assumption, I might send him back again to my first Argument. But I will leave such a kind of disputing to himself, as his own peculiar, and prove it otherwise thus. That Ministry which in the main and essential faculties, & offices thereof, is opposite to the main, and essential faculties, functions & offices of Priests, and Deacons is not the Ministry of Priests, and Deacons. But such is our Ministry. Therefore it is not the Ministry of Priests and Deacons. The Proposition is undeniable. The Assumption may be proved thus. That Ministry which is opposite to the Sacrifice of the Mass, is opposite to the main and essential faculties, functions and offices of Priests and Deacons. Such is our Ministry. Therefore it is opposite to the main and essential faculties of Priests and Deacons. I do not see, which of these Premises he can with any colourable reason deny. I will therefore for bear to proceed further in this Argument: until I see what he can say against it. The third Argument. That Ministry which professing Christ by maintaining his covenant with the seals of it, doth directly and professedly war against the Beast and against all that worship his Image, and receive his mark in their forehead and hand, cannot without sin be separated from. Such is our Ministry. Therefore it cannot without sin be separated from. The Proposition is true. For no Ministry so professing Christ, but the true Ministry of jesus Christ, doth directly and professedly war in manner, & form aforesaid. The Assumption I prove thus. That Ministry which so professing opposeth itself professedly to the Pope of Rome as that great Antichrist, which directly and expressly renounceth all Ecclesiastical homage unto him, or any of his professed clergy, That denieth and disputeth against (most effectually) all the main and foundamentall points of Popery, which opposeth itself to the uttermost of the strength and Power thereof, to all the professed friends of the Pope, and Church of Rome, That holdeth and maintaineth all the members thereof to be heretics and idolaters, and in the state of condemnation, and such as no good Christian ought to communicate spiritually withal, That Ministry (I say) doth directly war against the beast, and against all that worship his Image, etc. But all this is done in and by our Ministry. Therefore it doth directly, and professedly war against the Beast, etc. I know not which of these Propositions he can with any face deny; but deny either when he will, I shall be ready to prove them. The fourth Argument. That Ministry which, deriveth the power and functions thereof from Christ cannot without sin be separated from. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies deriveth the Power and functions thereof from Christ. Therefore it cannot without sin be separated from. The profess of the main proposition of this fourth Argument will serve to prove this Proposition. The Assumption is as sufficiently proved by my third and first Argument as his contrary, is by his third and first. But I further prove it thus. If the Power and functions of our Ministry for the substance thereof, be the very same, for which Christ ascended up into Heaven to procure for the edification of his body the Church, then doth it for the substance thereof, derive the Power and functions thereof from Christ. But the first is true, therefore the later is true also. The Consequent of the Proprosition is undeniable. The Assumption is as undeniable, Except he can show any substantial difference between the one and the other. The fift Argument. That Ministry which worketh upon the Consciences of men, by a true spiritual calling cannot without sin be separated from. Such is our Ministry. Therefore it cannot without sin be separated from. The Proposition cannot be gain said. The Assumption is proved by my 2. Argument, but I further prove it in this manner. That Ministry which worketh upon the Consciences of men only by a spiritual gift and grace given by Christ, and directed by the word of God, doth work upon the consciences of men by a true Spiritual calling. These doth the Ministry of our Church Assemblies. Therefore it worketh upon the consciences of men by a true Spiritual calling. The truth of either of these Propositions, I shall easily prove, if they be deinde. The sixth Argument. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies is no strange Ministry. Therefore it is a sin to separate from it. This Anticedent is better proved by my first Argument: then his contrary Assumption is by his first Argument. I prove it not withstanding thus. That Ministry which for the substance thereof, was practised by Christ, the Apostles many worthy and famous Martyrs and witnesses of jesus Christ in Church Assemblies is no strange Ministry. Such is our Ministry for the substance thereof. Therefore it is no strange Ministry. Surely he will never deny the Proposition. Nether can he deny the Assumption, except he can show a Substantial difference, between the ministries aforesaid. The seventh Argument. That Ministry which is from Heaven cannot without sin be separated from. The Ministry of our Church Assemblies is from Heaven. Therefore it cannot without sin be separated from. The Proposition is plain. The Assumption is proved by all the former Arguments, which in his logic Scholes, in his own cause is proof good enough. But I add a further proof. That Ministry which in all the parts and Power thereof is principally excercized and directed, to bring men to Heaven is a Ministry from Heaven. Such is our Ministry aforesaid. Therefore it is from Heaven. The Proposition is firm. It being not possible, that that Ministry which is from Earth or hell should be principally directed and excercized in all the parts and Powers thereof to bring men to Heaven. The Assumption may not be denied, except he can show in what other thing it is more principally excercized, and to what other end, directed, which he can never do. AN ANSWER TO CERTAIN DEMANDS OFTEN PUBLISHED by M. johnson, the deciding whereof (as he saith) will end the controversies between him and us. The first Demand. WHether the Lord jesus Christ have by his last will and Testament, given unto and set in his Church, sufficient ordinary officers, with their calling, work and maintenance: for the administration of his holy things, and for the sufficient ordinary instruction, guidance and service of his Church, to the end of the world. 1 I Answer directly (understanding by Officers, spiritual officers) that he hath; And that it is a Sin herein to break his will and testament, either by depriving the Church of any of those officers, or by bringing into it any other kind, with any other kind of calling, or work, than he hath appointed in the same. 2. That not withstanding this, the Civil Magistrate hath power, to set over the Churches of Christ in his Dominions, Commissioners and overseers, which are not specially appointed by Christ in his Testament, civilly to guide & govern the Churches, & to maintain those privileges, liberties, offices & orders, that Christ hath endowed them with all, against all the enemies, both without and within the same. 3. Concerning the maintenance of the Ministers: Christ hath set down no more in his Testament, than this in effect, That the labourer is worthy of his hire: And that for their Ministration of Spiritual things, the Churches that enjoy their labours, aught to Minister to them, of their Temporals. But after what especial manner, they shall be maintained, he hath (for aught appeareth yet to the contrary) either left it to the discretion of the Churches, if they have the free disposition of their temporal goods in their own hand: or of the Christian Magistrate, who in such cases may see what is fit, than the Churches themselves. The second Demand. Whether the Offices of Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons and Helpers, be those offices appointed by Christ in his Testament before said? Or whether the present ecclesiastical offices of archbishops, lordbishops, Suffragans, Deans, Prebendaries, Cannons, Petty Cannons, Priests, Deacons, archdeacons, Doctors of Divinity, chaplains or House-Priests, Commissaries, Officials, Proctors, Apparitors, Parsons, Vicars, Curates, Vagrant or Mercenary, Preachers, Churchwardens, Sidemen, Clerks, Sextons. and the rest now had in the Cathedral and perishionall Assemblies, be those offices oppointed by Christ in his Testament, as is aforesaid or no? 1. I grant, that the Offices in the first place mentionned, are those very offices which Christ hath appointed that there is no Church of Christ, but hath use and need of them; And that such are someway defective, that want any one of them. 2. That yet not withstanding, they may be true Churches, that want some of them; yea the chiefest of them, as those Assemblies of our own profession in England, have for many years (as I take it) been without, either all or chiefest of them; And yet they judge themselves true Churches: yea, though they have not so much as the Sacraments administered amongst them. 3. Where the Civil Magistrate doth his duty as he ought: and where the Churches have the benefit of his help, for the suppressing of sin, and the relieving of the poor, and those that are in any distress (which the Apostolical Churches wanted) there the want of some of these offices, may be the better borne with all: and the Church less defective, that doth want them, especially the two latter. 4. I grant that none of those offices here mentioned in the latter part (excepting that of Deacons,) are in name those offices which Christ hath appointed: some of them, neither in name, nor in deed: some in deed, though not in name; Some have the name of that, which indeed they are not; Some though they be set over the Churches: Yet are not indeed any proper offices of the Church; Some offices here named neither in deed nor name, as they are such, are ecclesiastical offices, but only school Titles and dignities given to men eminent in learning, for encouragement of others to study good letters, especially divinity. 5. All the offices appointed by Christ to be in his Church▪ to the end of the world, in effect and substance may be found contained under some of these, though somewhat disguised with strange names, borrowed from the Church of Rome: and the principal & most necessary, are under some of these. For many of these which you dispitfully call, mercenary Preachers, Priests, House-Priests: yea, Parsons, Vicars, Curates, are in very deed and truth, in office & practice (whatsoever they are in name) The very Pastors and Teachers, that Christ hath ordained, ministering in his Churches, according to their places and callings: And those gifts which Christ had bestowed upon them all, the ordinary means of salvation. As for these variety of names, most of them arise, from that variety of maintenance that is in our Churches, and not of their spiritual offices; So that in this manner to dispute against our Churches, because the Ministers thereof, have such & such names, is: as though one should dispute against the Church of the jews in Christ's time and have denied communion with it, ask; whether Priests, Levites, and Prophets, were not those officers which God had appointed to govern the Church of the jews with all? Or whether Scribes, pharisees, Saducees, Captains of the Temple, Rulers of the Synagogues, Doctors of the Law, Centurions, Soldiers, the highpriests Servants, etc. were those Officers? Or as if one disputing against your own Churches, or those which have (though not so fully, as you would have them) entertained the same discipline with you, should: to warrant their separation from you, & their condemnation of you as false Churches, move the very same question in nature unto you; Ask you whether Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons & Helpers, be not those Offices, which Christ hath appointed in his Testament: Or whether Schismatics, Refractories, lay-Aldermen; Parish Bishops, Consistorians, Parish Popes, Proctors of spittle houses, daubers, Thackers, Tailors, Tinkers, etc. be those Officers? for thus it hath pleased some, to put these odious names upon those, which bearre & exercise the offices of Pastors, Teachers, Elders, etc. The third Demand. Whether the callings and entrance into the ecclesiastical offices aforesaid, their administration and maintenance, now had and retained in England, be the manner of calling, administration and maintenance, which Christ hath appointed, for the Offices of the Church, above named, or no? Not to stand (for the avoiding of multiplicity of unnessarie questions) upon defence of the calling, entrance, administration and maintenance of all; I answer directly and plainly, That the Calling, entrance, administration and maintenance, of many (at the least) that are called into ecclesiastical offices, is in very effect and substance the same, that Christ hath appointed. They are men instructed in the knowledge of good Letters, especially in divinity. They have a gift in some good measure, to divide the word of God, according to the necessities of the people, over whom they are set. They have a desire, to do Christ and his Church service in his Ministry, and a purpose to give themselves over unto that work. They have in some good measure, (for none hath them in perfection) all those graces and gifts that Paul to Timothy, requires to be in Bishops and Elders; They are so judged and esteemed to be of other Ministers, and well grounded Christians, and of those people which submit unto their Ministry, who accepting of them and their Ministry as sent of God, desiring and yielding themselves to live under them, as is fitting for Christians: And they resolving to guide and govern them, as becometh spiritual leaders and guides; Such calling and entrance as this, have many of our Church-officers; more than this in substance and effect, is not appointed by Christ. Those defects and errors which over and beside, many time; they yield unto in their calling, entrance and administration, are not of that nature and quality, that they make anullitie thereof, or make it a falls, and Antichristian calling, entrance or administration. The maintenance they live by, as it is no where in special appointed of Christ: so is it no where in general, or special forbidden; In the yielding whereof unto the Ministers, they fulfil the Testament of Christ, in giving of their temporal things, for spiritual, in giving hire to the Labourers, etc. and do not therein break any parts else thereof, he having no where forbidden, any such manner of maintenance, but left it indifferent, to give money or fruits, In fruits to give the twentieth, the twelfth, the tenth, the eighth of the increase, according either to their estate, or the necessity of the Ministers, wherein the Magistrate hath authority to rule and define, who hath in his hand, the power of men's temporal estates; or the Church, if the Magistrate leave unto them, the free use of their own Temporalties; Nether is the tenth required to be given by the Magistrate, or yielded to be given by the Church, to the maintenaince of the Ministers, any more ceremonial or judaical, in regard of the number, then in regard of the matter; Nether did their any Ministry, lie so much in the quantity of the thing given, as in the very gift and offering itself; So that by the same reason, that you make it unlawful, for Ministers to be maintained by tithes, you make it unlawful for them, to have any kind of maintenance from the Church, there having been a Ceremony, in the very matter itself, as much as in the quantity, or number. For not only their giving the tithe of their increase, but also the very giving of their increase itself, out of that consideration, was ceremonial. The fourth Demand. Whether every true visible Church of Christ, be not a company of people called and separated out from the world, and the falls worship and ways thereof, by the word of God: and joined together in the fellowship of the Gospel, by voluntary profession of the faith, and obedience of Christ? I answer, 1. That every true visible Church of Christ is such a people. 2. That yet, not withstanding they be such; they may in their infirmity and ignorance, walk in some of the ways, and practise some parts of the falls worship of the world, not withstanding their said separation, conjunction and profession. 3. They may in time become, the true visible Churches of Christ, which at the first were not, in the said manner and form, called, separated and joined together, but forced and constrained against their will by the sword of the Magistrate. 4. Many of those Churches in our kingdom from which you separate, as they now stand, are such a company of people, so called, separated and joined together: though in all three, there may be some kind of defects and wants. The fift Demand. Whether the Sacraments, being the seals of righteousness which is by faith, may be administered unto any other, but to the faithful and their feed: or in any other Ministry, or manner then is appointed by jesus Christ, the Apostle and high Priest of our profession? And whether they be no otherwise administered, in our Cathedral & Parishional Churches in England. 1. I grant, that the Sacraments ought to be administered, only to the faithful in outward profession, and their seed, and in no other Ministry, or manner, then is appointed by Christ. 2. In many of our Churches (at the least) they are administered in no other manner, from and by no other Ministry, than Christ hath appointed: nor to no other persons. 3. Every error and defect, in some part of the matter, and form, and ministry, a rising of ignorance, or infirmity, maketh not the Churches falls Churches; except you hold, That no true particular Church can err, which is a more gross opinion, then that of the Papists. The sixth Demand. Whether the book of Common Prayer, with the feasts, fasts, holy days, stinted Prayers & liturgy prescribed therein, & used in these Assemblies, be the true worship of God, commanded in his word: or the devise & invention of man, for God's worship & service. 1. Though it should be granted, that the book of Common prayer in all the parts and parcels thereof, is not the true worship of God, but containeth in it some devises and inventions of man; yet, the true worship of God (not withstanding) is prescribed in it. 2. So much of it as is used in many of our Churches, is the true worship of God, and in effect commanded in his word. 3. Those devises and inventions of men, with the feasts, fasts & holy days therein prescribed, though they should be granted, to be sins and corruptions in our Churches, & such as ought not to be conformed unto: & such as we ought rather to separate from our Churches then either by subscription, conformity, or any other means, to approve; yet are they not of that nature, that the simple use of any, or all of them, doth destroy the very being of those Churches, which use them: making them falls Churches, and such as we may have no spiritual communion withal, no not in the best things. The seventh Demand. Whether all people and Churches without exception, be not bound in Religion only, to receive and submit unto that Ministry, worship and order, which Christ as Lord and King, hath given and appointed to his Church? Or whether any may receive & join unto another devised by man, for the service of God? And consequently, whether they that join to the present ecclesiastical Ministry, worship and order of the Cathedral, and Parishional Assemblies, can be assured by the word of God, that they join to the former ordained by Christ, and not to the latter devised by man, even the man of sin, for the worship and service of God? 1. I grant that we are bound in Religion, to do that which is specified in the first part of your question. 2. To join with our ecclesiastical Ministry, worship and orders (at least in those Assemblies, whether Cathedral or other, when and where all things are not performed, according to the rigour of our laws) is not to join with a Ministry and worship, devised by that man of sin: but (though not in all the specialties and formalities thereof) with such a Ministry and worship, as is required and instituted of God. 3. They which join to the present ecclesiastical Ministry, worship and order of the Cathedral or Parishional Assemblies in those things which are performed therein, according to the true intent and meaning of our laws, though some things be done not warrantable by the word: yet they may be assured by the word of God, that they join to the substance of that Ministry, worship and order, which Christ as Lord & King, hath given and appointed to his Church; At least they may be as well assured thereof by God's word, as any that join with the present ecclesiastical Ministry, worship and order of the Assemblies of those of the Separation, can be assured by the same word, that they join to that form, which is ordained by Christ.